Author Topic: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004  (Read 408509 times)

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Offline Neganur

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Generally, beside the obvious bandwidth, memory, decoding capability and sample rate difference,  scopes like the RTO series provide software to do compliance testing like USB, PCIe, Ethernet 1000BASE-T, 10G, D-PHY etc. and very advanced signal analysis like jitter and various clock recovery applications.

There are also hardware options like more accurate reference oscillators, IQ processing, solid state disks, operation systems that can run analysis software and process real time data with custom signal processing functions. All of this is something you're not likely to see in lower cost hardware. Last but not least, the high end scopes provide the probing solutions needed to actually get the signal into the scope (e.g. probe interfaces for active probes)

The last two pages of this brochure should give you a first impression of the major differences:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf
 
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Offline ws2812b

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This document:
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/Scope_FamilyFlyer_e_3607_0946_32_V0600_Einzelseiten~1.pdf
seems to have the same (?, one has "new stickers", the other doesn't) table Neganur found and an additional table with more comparisons among the different families
 

Offline agdr

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From that document it does look like the RTB2000 math functions have been neutered on purpose.  :(   Hmmm.....
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 07:53:24 am by agdr »
 

Offline NA5WH

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Well probably R&S's way to differentiating its product lines. They probably feel the "hobby" or low technician user except those in transmission testing (ie their only 50 \$\Omega\$ scope in the "lower" end of their offering) don't need heavy maths.   Add and Invert (aka subtract) is about the only math that is absolutely mandatory on a scope in my opinion... as it is fundamental to taking good measurements on a scope in my experience.  That said, Ive seen some fun things done with higher math functions, but those would have to be.. two families up?... the RTE1000 level instrument line, as its more than math-on-math.

It seems that the RTB2000's focus for this model is the user wanting to catch the stray signal. With a much higher stated waveform per second rate with a higher end ADC, far more likely to find that 1-in-a-million signal, and small noise in free-running. So they spent the silicon money for that. (I really hope Dave or someone can test to see if its waves/s actually is up there).

Not that I of course would love a scope with smooth 2048 gradient persistence with any math function that can throw it on the screen nearly as fast as it can acquire it, that can do 50 \$\Omega\$ or high impedance,  capturing the 1-in-a-billion signal... but yeah...   I think the high end scope mfg still want to have a wide product line, instead of narrowing down more.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 05:54:50 am by NA5WH »
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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They are clearly targetting the DSOX2000, as the feature set is basically a straight copy, and they're hoping to  differentiate with the touchscreen/UI, 10 bit ADC and I/O features.

The main maths function I'd like to see is integration, as this can be useful for measuring current draw of devices that vary a lot in different modes.
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Online jjoonathan

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They are clearly targetting the DSOX2000, as the feature set is basically a straight copy, and they're hoping to  differentiate with the touchscreen/UI, 10 bit ADC and I/O features.

The main maths function I'd like to see is integration, as this can be useful for measuring current draw of devices that vary a lot in different modes.

Integration is also useful for measuring small capacitance and inductance, as popularized by the Black Magic book.
 

Offline exe

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There is still a huge disconnect with the FOSS and the electronics hardware and test equipment sectors. FOSS isn't perfect, and it's not for everyone. But it's exactly the markets like hobbyists, semi-professionals, enthusiasts which have benefitted and contributed the most to projects in this sector. And it's exactly the same people who would stand to benefit here.

Exactly my thoughts every time I see yet another buggy/slow firmware, especially on Chinese gear. I hope one day a company like rigol just let people run their software on _their_ equipment (okay, okay, I know about red pitaya). I honestly don't understand why they don't do that. Unless development costs are insignificant for them (who knows, may there are just a few interns working on it) and they don't want low-priced gear to become too powerful.

Actually, I think all these stupid limitations (no serial decoding, BW limiting, etc) are fear-driven. And it seems the only real game changer on the market are Asian companies :).
 

Offline kwass

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Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions:  "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of.  Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision.   I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.

-katie
 

Offline irakandjii

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Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions:  "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of.  Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision.   I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.

I really hope this is true! I looked, however, at the brochure
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf Mentioned by Neganur in an earlier post.

The brochure  states that the HMO1202 is in a different math classification "Basic / (math on math)" vs the RTB2004 which is "elementary".  I don't understand the reasoning but it seems that is the way it is.  I too wonder if it is a technical limitation or a marketing choice?  And if the latter, might there be a future option?

Perhaps R&S Rich has some insight?

To be honest it is unclear to me how important advanced math features are to me personally.  I do see the rational for integration (area under the curve between cursors) and differentiation (slope at a point).  However, the value of  some of the other math functions (ln(), exponential() etc. available on alternative products) are less clear to me.  (They make me think of my old analog computer system "control & feedback" days with op amps, inverters etc) 

Mr Wolf has convinced me that some very interesting things can be done with "scope math" so.  To mitigate the risk that (maybe I will need them in the future?) I reviewed the manual under "Remote commands" and it appears you could write an external script to: a)  setup the scope, b) then download waveforms of interest c) process the waveform data in a remote application.  I suspect this is a less than optimum solution for most folks.  It is labor intensive, error prone, not real time, fairly complex to program and requires a lot of foreknowledge about the signals. 

But then again, maybe there is an opportunity for a remote "super UI" that looks the same but has all the computational bells and whistles.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 12:45:16 am by irakandjii »
 

Offline irakandjii

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Question to Rich from R&S on the R&S®RTB-B6 option - Signal Generator

I watched the video from Watt Circuit at the beginning of this thread and saw the function generator has sweep capability plus some other functions.  I have been unable to find details in the manual or online for this option.  I can find specification sheet only.

Is there an available source you could point me to please?

I would like to understand the sweep capabilities for example:
a) the types of sweep available linear, log? etc.
b) constraints if any on selectable freq. ranges for the sweep  (begin freq. -  end freq.)
c) constraints if any on the sweep time.    (lower limit < elapsed sweep time < upper limit)

I would also like to understand better the abilities of the Pattern generator to generate arbitrary patterns (programmable sequences?)

Thanks in advance
 

Offline pm.llb

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I would like to understand the sweep capabilities for example:
a) the types of sweep available linear, log? etc.
b) constraints if any on selectable freq. ranges for the sweep  (begin freq. -  end freq.)
c) constraints if any on the sweep time.    (lower limit < elapsed sweep time < upper limit)

According to ( in polish) :


generator description is shown starting from 5:20
swept linear and log 8:48
modulation AM/FM/ASK/FSK 9:25
gen end 9:40

arbitrary 8:30 ( NDN logo ) has been done externaly
("There is no internal editor so logo has been prepared in external editor and has been loaded into RTB2004 internal generator")

« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 07:18:26 pm by pm.llb »
 
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Offline knotlogic

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Online mikeselectricstuff

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As mentioned earlier, the deal was offered to all their distributors, but they didn't want it, presumably as they make more on their other, more expensive brands. The Farnell "offer" is just all options included at the 300MHz price.
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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions:  "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of.  Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision.   I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.

The brochure  states that the HMO1202 is in a different math classification "Basic / (math on math)" vs the RTB2004 which is "elementary".  I don't understand the reasoning but it seems that is the way it is.  I too wonder if it is a technical limitation or a marketing choice?  And if the latter, might there be a future option?

Perhaps R&S Rich has some insight?

The current math capability is the basic math functions described.  Having said that, I really appreciate getting additional feedback and will absolutely pass this on to the design team Germany.  No promises that it will be implemented, but the more feedback we hear the more likely something is to happen, so please don't hesitate to keep passing it on.

-Rich
 
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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Question to Rich from R&S on the R&S®RTB-B6 option - Signal Generator

I watched the video from Watt Circuit at the beginning of this thread and saw the function generator has sweep capability plus some other functions.  I have been unable to find details in the manual or online for this option.  I can find specification sheet only.

Is there an available source you could point me to please?

I would like to understand the sweep capabilities for example:
a) the types of sweep available linear, log? etc.
b) constraints if any on selectable freq. ranges for the sweep  (begin freq. -  end freq.)
c) constraints if any on the sweep time.    (lower limit < elapsed sweep time < upper limit)

I would also like to understand better the abilities of the Pattern generator to generate arbitrary patterns (programmable sequences?)

Thanks in advance
Here's a quick overview:

a) the types of sweep available linear, log? etc.
Linear and Log.
b) constraints if any on selectable freq. ranges for the sweep  (begin freq. -  end freq.)
Start Min: 1Hz
Stop Max:  25MHz
c) constraints if any on the sweep time.    (lower limit < elapsed sweep time < upper limit)
I don't have this handy - I'll see if I can find any documentation on it.

-Rich
 

Offline LaurentR

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Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions:  "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of.  Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision.   I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.

The brochure  states that the HMO1202 is in a different math classification "Basic / (math on math)" vs the RTB2004 which is "elementary".  I don't understand the reasoning but it seems that is the way it is.  I too wonder if it is a technical limitation or a marketing choice?  And if the latter, might there be a future option?

Perhaps R&S Rich has some insight?

The current math capability is the basic math functions described.  Having said that, I really appreciate getting additional feedback and will absolutely pass this on to the design team Germany.  No promises that it will be implemented, but the more feedback we hear the more likely something is to happen, so please don't hesitate to keep passing it on.

-Rich

Yup, that's a bummer. I have a DS1000Z and while the new RTB2000 is superior in many ways, I know I will miss the more advanced math.

The Rigol has more operations ( addition (A+B), subtraction (A-B), multiplication (AxB), division (A/B), FFT, A&&B, A||B, A^B, !A, Intg, Diff, Sqrt, Lg, Ln, Exp and Abs, low/high/band pass filtering.) according to the manual and can also cascade operations once with one intermediate variable (so you can do Ch1+Ch2+Ch3) - they call this "Fx operation". While I see how arbitrary formulas could be considered a differentiation feature for higher scope, basic maths as in the Rigol (more operation and basic cascading) are par for the course these days (even if the Keysight 2k don't do them either...).
I personally have used the cascading, intg, diff and will miss them if they are not in the RTB2000 (which they clearly are not right now).

It looks like there is also a deficit in triggering types (I haven't looked closely). Things like N-th edge or setup/hold are useful.

DS1000Z manual below for reference  ;)

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-050a/1/-/-/-/-/MSO1000Z%26DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf

 

Offline irakandjii

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Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions:  "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of.  Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision.   I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.

The brochure  states that the HMO1202 is in a different math classification "Basic / (math on math)" vs the RTB2004 which is "elementary".  I don't understand the reasoning but it seems that is the way it is.  I too wonder if it is a technical limitation or a marketing choice?  And if the latter, might there be a future option?

Perhaps R&S Rich has some insight?

The current math capability is the basic math functions described.  Having said that, I really appreciate getting additional feedback and will absolutely pass this on to the design team Germany.  No promises that it will be implemented, but the more feedback we hear the more likely something is to happen, so please don't hesitate to keep passing it on.

-Rich

Yup, that's a bummer. I have a DS1000Z and while the new RTB2000 is superior in many ways, I know I will miss the more advanced math.

The Rigol has more operations ( addition (A+B), subtraction (A-B), multiplication (AxB), division (A/B), FFT, A&&B, A||B, A^B, !A, Intg, Diff, Sqrt, Lg, Ln, Exp and Abs, low/high/band pass filtering.) according to the manual and can also cascade operations once with one intermediate variable (so you can do Ch1+Ch2+Ch3) - they call this "Fx operation". While I see how arbitrary formulas could be considered a differentiation feature for higher scope, basic maths as in the Rigol (more operation and basic cascading) are par for the course these days (even if the Keysight 2k don't do them either...).
I personally have used the cascading, intg, diff and will miss them if they are not in the RTB2000 (which they clearly are not right now).

It looks like there is also a deficit in triggering types (I haven't looked closely). Things like N-th edge or setup/hold are useful.

DS1000Z manual below for reference  ;)

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-050a/1/-/-/-/-/MSO1000Z%26DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf

Yup, it is a bit of a puzzle.  Given the quality and level of support (expected and delivered) from Tier 1 suppliers.  I would have thought that this was their dominant competitive advantage not "choking" available features like math & triggers.     

As R&S Rich says in a previous post, our feedback may have a positive impact (crosses fingers).

 

Offline MrW0lf

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DS1000Z ... Diff

Nope. Does not have that one ;)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg1101476/#msg1101476

As for R&S - not having integration is a bit mocking IMHO. It is like DMM w/o TRMS, a bit too basic for modern times... at least considering price.
 

Offline Neganur

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I don't know about the price argument, seeing that none but the two top series of R&S scopes had any advanced math and looking at the price of the HMO 2k 3k series, I can't help but feel the RTB is already priced very competitively.

I could imagine that designing a scope takes some years and that just a couple of years back not so many hobbyists could afford scopes with the features we are offered today. So I am led to believe that this is R&S consciously not putting the math in there rather than 'crippling'.

Compared to the functionality implemented in the Megazoom ASIC which then is deliberately disabled or offered as paid option is perhaps a testament of Keysight's better ability to plan their scope model's feature.

So I think R&S simply did not have math on the list for the RTB but is perhaps able to listen to the customer's feedback that this math is indeed a wanted feature, and they can implement it in firmware updates.

Asking a customer what he wants usually ends in feature creep :P
 

Offline widlarizer

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Has someone experience with buying the special edition RTB 2004 at tequipment in combination with "Shipito".(Im from Europe  :palm:)
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Has someone experience with buying the special edition RTB 2004 at tequipment in combination with "Shipito".(Im from Europe  :palm:)
From a friend in the UK : Testequity would not ship to an address they knew was a forwarder, ditto Newark.
He does have an order with another US supplier that hasn't been declined (yet).

I'm trying to find out more info from R&S UK, may have more info tomorrow when I go to R&S UK to pick up my review unit.   

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Offline NA5WH

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After running across this link https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPbIMiK2z7A1XlibvC_oeHpnVmdtBCRHpku1VCgOQeFJkAnn2-D7TXspDXSnQ2tEg?key=aU5nRnVwMl92R0pweWpPcE8tVi05OERkUDlTU3Zn and the little video mixed in with the pictures, I'm feeling better about the displayed waveform update rate.

And unless there is a fan in the powersupply  shield, im not seeing one through any of the vent cut-outs, so this may be mostly passively cooled. Hard to say, as they could have one buried away...  (Keithley DMM7510 comes to mind in crazy fan location design).
 

Offline BU508A

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(Keithley DMM7510 comes to mind in crazy fan location design).

And it is loud!  :(
I think, if R&S did use a similiar cooler design as in the HMO1232 (there is a review from Dave), then it would be much quieter than my DMM 7510.
And for me this is acceptable.
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Offline NA5WH

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I think, if R&S did use a similiar cooler design as in the HMO1232 (there is a review from Dave), then it would be much quieter than my DMM 7510.
And for me this is acceptable.

Yeah after watching that video again (making me happier about my purchase) and looking at the pictures again, I found it..  they've done another diagonal fan on the high compliance mounting, this time into the shielded part on the bottom.  Based on the mount looking the same, I bet its the same ~ 19dB(A) fan.. so yeah... not going to really be able to hear it.
 

Offline pm.llb

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Does anybody know what kind of logic probe is suitable for RTB2004 ?
I assume there is no one in promo package (only software option is enabled)
and this is not just a straight 250MHz wires ... :-)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 07:21:30 pm by pm.llb »
 


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