Author Topic: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004  (Read 401329 times)

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Online maginnovision

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so after reading some posts here my conclusion of the scope is:
It would be a nice scope if the "whack-a-scope-issue" wouldn't be so bad. I wonder what R&S will do about it

I tried it on my own earlier and it wasn't much of an issue since it had to be fairly deliberate.  Had a motor going on the same surface and didn't see anything. Actually needed to hit the unit hard enough it probably wouldn't be accidental. Obviously tapping the BNC directly caused it but that is definitely something you just shouldn't do. I don't think they'll do anything so if it's a deal breaker for someone just don't buy it.
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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It would be a nice scope if the "whack-a-scope-issue" wouldn't be so bad. I wonder what R&S will do about it

I tried this "whack" on my Agilent MSO7104B and my MSOX6004A
Both have the same issue, may be not as severe as the R&S RTB but nevertheless it is there.
So, I would not worry too much about this.
And who really whack's their scope during measurements and when probes are installed?
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Offline snoopy

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so after reading some posts here my conclusion of the scope is:
It would be a nice scope if the "whack-a-scope-issue" wouldn't be so bad. I wonder what R&S will do about it

A work around is to use a mouse to operate the scope so you are not touching it and introducing artifacts into the measurements otherwise as Dave has pointed out this limitation which effects most scopes to some degree or another is worse for the R&S scope because of the touch screen for normal use !! I'm not feeling so bad for missing out on the promotion in the US ;)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 06:49:03 pm by snoopy »
 
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Online maginnovision

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This is what we call abuse. Trigger set to 100uV. Quite possibly a terrible angle because I'm just in boxers and the screen is reflective(!). This is also not in a lab environment because it's late and I'm done working for the day. If you treat your scope like this regularly you've got bigger problems than a shock affecting your measurements. Shouldn't matter but mains is 122V right now. The BNC's however respond very quickly when there is no probe attached and the channel is turned on.

https://youtu.be/mXDW3ZXGHbQ
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 07:16:07 pm by maginnovision »
 

Online jjoonathan

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And who really whack's their scope during measurements and when probes are installed?
Whacks are the demo, not the threat. Imagine spending hours tracking down a tone in the noise floor of your circuit only to find that it was actually fan whine acoustically coupling into your scope's front end  :--
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Honest question: Why do scopes all seem to have such crap screens?

Market positioning + economics... With R&S can maybe use PC+monitor as big screen?
Found excellent monitor for my needs. When summer fun&games over gonna get this to spent next winter in comfort&luxury:
http://www.eizo.com/products/flexscan/ev2730q/
For some reason never liked to use multiple monitors, with this all stuff fits on single screen  :-+

« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 07:55:39 pm by MrW0lf »
 
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Offline Deridex

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It would be a nice scope if the "whack-a-scope-issue" wouldn't be so bad. I wonder what R&S will do about it

I tried this "whack" on my Agilent MSO7104B and my MSOX6004A
Both have the same issue, may be not as severe as the R&S RTB but nevertheless it is there.
So, I would not worry too much about this.
And who really whack's their scope during measurements and when probes are installed?
I see your point. Problem is just that in Dave's video it looks somewhat worse for me. You could end up searching for stuff, that isn't there.
But i gotta admit: if you know, there is this issue i think you can work with it.
 

Offline Pinkus

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I do not see this microphonic issue as a real problem:
a) more or less all scopes with SMD frontends had that for decades. So what  - did anybody ever had a problem with it? No, of course not. I admit, it might become a problem if you are an engineer on a container freighter and you need to place the scope on top of your 30 meter large marine diesel engine - but for a regular usage.... no problem at all.

b) who whacks his scope or screen with a pen or screwdriver; who even taps it? See?

c) the R&S RTB2000 has a capacitive touch screen, same as your smartphone or tablet. Did you ever pushed these with your finger like Dave did? He really pushed the screen pretty hard, it even makes a "pock" sound each time.
Nobody does this in regular world, at least not with a capacitive touch. You just barley need to touch such a touch screen, so usually you gently use your fingertip.

I can understand that Dave was making a video about it as
1) never has done that before  and
2) with the teaser "shocking" in large letters, implying a sensation, it gives him a nice coverage and raising view-figures (=money). But just the fact that it seems new for most people, it also shows, that it was not a problem in the past 20 years in any real world setup - because then we would have found out before.
I like many of Daves videos and they are often quite helpful. But here you should leave off the "shocking" and should have just made an educational video as usual.

Imho: this is just something exaggerated we should ignore as it would not affect our work (if you are not exactly the marine diesel engineer I mentioned at the beginning).
 
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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My issue with the vid is simply that it didn't show the effect in real-life usage, with a probe connected, which makes a big difference.
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Offline vokars

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so after reading some posts here my conclusion of the scope is:
It would be a nice scope if the "whack-a-scope-issue" wouldn't be so bad. I wonder what R&S will do about it

Is there a statement from R&S? It is a usual approach to call the support after finding a problem like the touchscreen microphonics and I guess that it already has been done. Is that feedback available for the public?

To find a problem is important but to find the solution is probabely more important. That has already been done here by discussing the input impedances. But it seems not to be be a full solution for the touchscreen microphonics. I appreciate feedback from owners who will get their new device soon or already got it.

Especially Mike has no touchscreen microphonics problem at all but uses a screen protection foil. That difference could be a solution? Could that possibility be verified? What are the experiences of others users who already received their device (different foil types, layer count, ...)? Dave has two devices and could make a comparison test. That would be a constructive approach.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 12:50:54 am by vokars »
 

Offline vokars

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I understand the hype about the 2k promo offer. It is like christmas and some people are sad because they did not get a gift.

Of course I would like that too for 2k. But on the other side. Do I really need most of these options?

1. Function Generator: Was difficult to get a specification but what I heard: Definitely no. Much too expensive and without external time reference that makes it too imprecise for me. I expect that most of the users here already have a better one for a lower price and really don't need this option.

2. Serial trigger options: I am fine with my ebay logic analyzer and have no need for such expensive options.

3. Segmented Memory/History: Could actually be interesting but also too expensive for me. I will check what can be done by the remote access instead for this feature.

But without these overpriced options (to be discussed: MSO-option) the rest of the scope is ok for me and maybe I will buy one without an urgent need for this promo offer.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 02:14:11 am by vokars »
 

Offline EEVblog

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I can understand that Dave was making a video about it as
1) never has done that before  and

Correct.
Well, I've done one for probes, but not for front ends.

Quote
2) with the teaser "shocking" in large letters, implying a sensation, it gives him a nice coverage and raising view-figures (=money).

Utter rubbish.
I made $104 from that video


That doesn't even pay for my time to make it.
I could likely have made more if I simply did the review I started out doing, when 5 minutes into doing that video I noticed that touch screen trigger thing.
I simply thought it was interesting and and incredibly ironic thing that touching the (much touched) big screen caused a signal impulse. So thought it would make an interesting video.

It really does bug me when people say I do videos for the money, they have absolutely no clue  >:(

Quote
But just the fact that it seems new for most people, it also shows, that it was not a problem in the past 20 years in any real world setup - because then we would have found out before.
I like many of Daves videos and they are often quite helpful. But here you should leave off the "shocking" and should have just made an educational video as usual.

Seriously? You don't get why I did that?
I added the "shocking" because it's a cute play on words. You know, piezoelectric shock response. Plus the fact that many people would (and were) quite shocked to actually find out such a thing happens. Plus the fact that I was quite shocked personally to find that a simple tap on the touchscreen could do that.
So there are three reasons why it was a perfectly valid title to choose.
You really think a simple play on worlds title detracts from the education content of that video? Seriously?

FYI, as a full time Youtuber who's future ultimately relies upon my content getting viewed, yes I make no excuses that I often with chose an attention grabbing title and an eye catches thumbnail. Any professional Youtuber who doesn't is a fool.
And it's NOT clickbait, my titles and thumbnails are never misleading. Often carefully chosen, yes, misleading, no.

Do I think it's a problem, yes.
Do I think it's a major problem, no.
But it's a fact that the problem can still happen in a real world measurement situation with a x10 probe.

I could have simply just short a much shorted video with just the R&S scope and made it look like this was the worst scope in history, but no, I was fair and included every other scope I had in the lab to show people that it happens with every scope to some degree.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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My issue with the vid is simply that it didn't show the effect in real-life usage, with a probe connected, which makes a big difference.

Yes it can, but as I have stated and tested, I still get a relatively large impulse with a shorted x10 probe attached.
It could still be a potential issue for some people.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Frequency analysis mode: Due to the high-performance FFT functionality of the R&SĀ®RTB2000 oscilloscopes, signals can be analyzed with up to 128 kpoints.

Does the FFT really only use 128 kpoints? That's very low!

It's double what Keysight offers.

Quote
Note that the new Siglent SDS1000X-E series (based on Xilinx Zynq-7000 SoC architecture) uses 1Mpoints for FFT!

Yep, and it's also pretty basic FFT functionality.

Also remember that any scope can do any number of FFT points you want if you export the data and analyse it externally.
 
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Online nctnico

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Also remember that any scope can do any number of FFT points you want if you export the data and analyse it externally.
That is true for any signal analysis capability of a DSO. The whole point is that the more capabilities are inside an oscilloscope the more versatile it is. Needing to hook up a scope to a PC and running external software (which you probably have to pay extra for) is a nuisance and due to slow transfer rates the update rate may be much slower as well.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Quote
Also remember that any scope can do any number of FFT points you want if you export the data and analyse it externally.
And this scope makes that.particularly easy with its USB mass storage mode, as you can immediately pull off a file of the waveform data from its virtual USB drive
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Offline vokars

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My issue with the vid is simply that it didn't show the effect in real-life usage, with a probe connected, which makes a big difference.

Yes it can, but as I have stated and tested, I still get a relatively large impulse with a shorted x10 probe attached.
It could still be a potential issue for some people.

I expect the touchscreen microphonic also with 1x probes because in real life situations the impedance includes the DUT impedance and is not shorted. True?
 

Offline mtdoc

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After watching Mike's excellent review videos and Dave's whack-a-scope video, I finally succumbed to the too-good-to-paas-up promotional deal. (still available fron Tequipment and with the EEVblog discount!) The thing is I don't really need this nice of a scope. But I have been wanting to move up to a 4 channel DSO ( from my hacked Rigol DS2072) and I'm a sucker for a bargain. Hopefully I'll grow into this scope before the next gen of better price/performance scopes appears.

Watching Dave's video and thinking hard about my use, I just don't see the "whack-a-scope" thing ever being an issue in my use.  I've never noticed it on my Rigol and as far as the touch screen goes, I just never tap a touch screen as hard as Dave was doing in his video and even if I did, I'm  sure I would quickly adjust my style if I saw such an effect. That, plus the fact that adding a screen protector is a no-brainer and as others have pointed out, low level signals would typically involve 50 ohm termination and/or 1x probe setting, etc and it just seems like a non-issue to me.
 

Offline agdr

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Spelling it correctly
« Reply #943 on: April 03, 2017, 06:53:56 am »
One big thing that R&S did achieve with the promo: hundreds of additional people, myself included, now know how to spell "Rohde and Schwarz" correctly.  :)
 
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Offline kaz911

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One big thing that R&S did achieve with the promo: hundreds of additional people, myself included, now know how to spell "Rohde and Schwarz" correctly.  :)

May the Schwar(t)z be with you. <- "Movie quote..." - I don't think R&S will adopt it though..
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: Spelling it correctly
« Reply #945 on: April 03, 2017, 07:10:08 am »
One big thing that R&S did achieve with the promo: hundreds of additional people, myself included, now know how to spell "Rohde and Schwarz" correctly.  :)

You mean Rogue and Swarts?
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Spelling it correctly
« Reply #946 on: April 03, 2017, 07:50:17 am »
One big thing that R&S did achieve with the promo: hundreds of additional people, myself included, now know how to spell "Rohde and Schwarz" correctly.  :)

 :-+
 

Online mrpackethead

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That they did. And its now a name i wish to avoid.
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Online jjoonathan

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Even if someone figures out how to hack the base Robe&Shorts up to the equivalent of the promo package?
 

Offline norks

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Has anyone gotten a ship date from Tequipment earlier than May? It seems odd Test Equity has been shipping them out while Tequipment is still saying another month.
 


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