Dead link.Hi Mike - I know some about the scopes going out for review (even outside the US). There ended up being a mixup in shipping and it sounds like distributor stocking units were prioritized first (the blogger units should have gone first or in parallel at least). My understanding is the blogger units should be going out this week (I got my fedex number today for the units I'm sending on). I'll check on the status of yours and have them get in contact with you.
I was promised one "before release" but they're cutting it a bit fine now...
Link works for me. Datasheet is 50 pages, first 33 pages are safety instructions in multiple languages. You got to be kidding me...Link edited or site updated.
Edit, All 50 pages are just safety regulations really.
"rather low cost" .. looks like ~$3000 to me.Significantly lower, but I'd better not post until it's the 14th my time 8) I'll put up full pricing tomorrow (for the US) if folks would like.
Anyone know what price range we are talking about here?
"rather low cost" .. looks like ~$3000 to me.Significantly lower, but I'd better not post until it's the 14th my time 8) I'll put up full pricing tomorrow (for the US) if folks would like.
Anyone know what price range we are talking about here?
-Rich
with gesture control ...For some reason I'm reminded of Bob Widlar... What would you want a scope to do in response to this gesture?
"Entry cost" presumably.... Looks like at least logic and wavegen are options"rather low cost" .. looks like ~$3000 to me.Significantly lower,
Anyone know what price range we are talking about here?
No separate Y controls :--The menus at the top are shortcuts (similar to our toolbar on the RTO/RTE family). They are configurable. The main menu is on the righthand side - it pops up but then goes away to allow the waveform to use the full display. It also has the light pipes around the volt/div knob - no separate Y controls, but relatively straight forward which channel you are changing (and allowed the massive display). I'll be curious to hear your feedback after using them.
But plenty of buttons :-+
Looks like the touch menus etc. are at the top of the screen, not the bottom. Not ideal (screen obscured by hand, fatigue) but maybe configurable?
So a $800 entry cost for the basic stripped down scope with 50 MHz and no options? Then $1000 for upgrades? I see where this is going.I should have been more clear. This is a 2000-class scope in pricing - so it will start well below $3,000, but there will be different price points beyond that. Think pricing similar to Keysight's 2000X and Tek's DPO2000. Definitely won't be for every hobbyist, but the value it brings is very high.
Full datasheet:300MHz with passive probes works. And 50R through-terminators are hardly a big deal
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf)
Highlights:
1.25Gs/s with 4 channels on
10" 1280x800 touch screen
70, 100, 200 and 300 MHz (but no 50 Ohm input mode so 300MHz is quite useless)
Protocol decoding and digital inputs optional
Talking about contests here, this new R&S scope at least wins one price: Ugliest scope of the century :)For you they'll include this tea-cozy to cover the scope when not in use:
Hello folks - R&S is launching a new MSOX game changer
For you they'll include this tea-cozy to cover the scope when not in use:
I like the look of the annotation feature, great use of a touch screen.Hi Dave - I'll check on yours too. Likely got caught up in the same issue Mike's did.
I was supposed to be getting one too, didn't happen.
Blatant copy of Keysight's app bundle. If you can use a reasonable proportion of them, rather better value.
Rohde & Schwarz RTB-PK1.02 Application Bundle for RTB2000 Series
Contains RTB-K1.02 (serial trigger and decoding I2C), RTB-K2.02 (SPI,UART/RS323), RTB-K3.02 (CAN/LIN), RTB-K15.02 (History and Segment Memory), RTB-B6.02 (ARB Generator) (1333.1092.02)
US$1260 (GBP1001 at Farnell).
with gesture control ...For some reason I'm reminded of Bob Widlar... What would you want a scope to do in response to this gesture?
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZWtU43b__t4/maxresdefault.jpg)
Special display modeConsidering the lack of screenshots I'm beginning to doubt it means the use of colour to extend teh dynamic range of intensity grading as I think they do on their higher end models.
inverse brightness, waveform color modes for analog channels (temperature, fire, rainbow)
I wonder what exactly this means -Describing the different color maps means its probably the false color style display for eye diagrams, a very welcome feature to make intensity graded displays clearer.QuoteSpecial display modeConsidering the lack of screenshots I'm beginning to doubt it means the use of colour to extend teh dynamic range of intensity grading as I think they do on their higher end models.
inverse brightness, waveform color modes for analog channels (temperature, fire, rainbow)
They also seemed to know a lot of details ahead of everyone else, probably an undeclared interest there.Hello folks - R&S is launching a new MSOX game changer:-DD
But killer/game-changer ? We'll see....I don't think so. Feature and pricewise the RTB2000 is on par with Lecroy's Wavesurfer 3000 which has been out for a couple of years already. The only important thing the Wavesurfer 3000 doesn't have is peak detect.
That's what I'd have hoped, but as it would be such good eye-candy, why are they not showing it in the datasheet or brochure ?I wonder what exactly this means -Describing the different color maps means its probably the false color style display for eye diagrams, a very welcome feature to make intensity graded displays clearer.QuoteSpecial display modeConsidering the lack of screenshots I'm beginning to doubt it means the use of colour to extend teh dynamic range of intensity grading as I think they do on their higher end models.
inverse brightness, waveform color modes for analog channels (temperature, fire, rainbow)
No builtin 50 ohm termination does kind of suck.I'd sooner have auto probe sensing
The two features go hand in hand for the most part. If it is targeted to compete with the Keysight DSOX2000 series then having neither feature is understandable. Both of the features are a major reason I went with the Keysight 3000 instead of the 2000.No builtin 50 ohm termination does kind of suck.I'd sooner have auto probe sensing
Full datasheet:300MHz with passive probes works. And 50R through-terminators are hardly a big deal
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf)
Highlights:
1.25Gs/s with 4 channels on
10" 1280x800 touch screen
70, 100, 200 and 300 MHz (but no 50 Ohm input mode so 300MHz is quite useless)QuoteProtocol decoding and digital inputs optional
<sigh> Such a shame that scope manufacturers continue to think that protocol decode is optional. Especially when less useful things like FFT are typically standard.
Wfms/s found to be 50,000From https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB-K15_RTM-K15_Fast_ac_en_3607-1220-92_v0200.pdf
But some questions still:
Trigger rearm time?
Trigger rearm time, when offloading to segmented memory?
History and segmented memory
Equipped with the R&S®RTB-K15 and the R&S®RTM-K15
options, the R&S®RTB2000 and the R&S®RTM2000 of-
fer a history function with a segmented memory of
160/460 Msample per channel that is unique in this class,
covering both analog and digital channels. The memory
can be divided into several steps (see table). When the
ultra-segmented mode is activated, the blind time on the
R&S®RTM2000 is reduced to less than 5 ?s.
...no separate Y controls...
That's what I'd have hoped, but as it would be such good eye-candy, why are they not showing it in the datasheet or brochure ?I wonder what exactly this means -Describing the different color maps means its probably the false color style display for eye diagrams, a very welcome feature to make intensity graded displays clearer.QuoteSpecial display modeConsidering the lack of screenshots I'm beginning to doubt it means the use of colour to extend teh dynamic range of intensity grading as I think they do on their higher end models.
inverse brightness, waveform color modes for analog channels (temperature, fire, rainbow)
Waveform Color
Selects the color scale for the display of the waveform. Each scale comprises a set of
colors, where each color represents a certain frequency of occurrence.
Vertical Setup
"Temperature" Display in temperature colors. Blue corresponds to rare occurrences
of the samples, while white indicates frequent ones.
"Rainbow" Display in rainbow colors. Blue corresponds to rare occurrences of
the samples, while red indicates frequent ones.
"Fire" Display in fire colors. Yellow corresponds to rare occurrences of the
samples, while red indicates frequent ones.
"Default" Displays the waveform in its default monochrome color.
wonder if I should not have just bought my hmo1202.... ohwell, done is done I guess!
Will you sue Dave if he/someone here attempts to hack it? Or is R&S presence to somehow make the while situation less uneasy? Looks like a nice scope but this price deflation isn't happening, which is a shame.
Pricing is on Farnell
http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&st=rtb20&selectedCategoryId=%5BLjava.lang.String%3B%403ebc3ebc&pageSize=25&showResults=true (http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&st=rtb20&selectedCategoryId=%5BLjava.lang.String%3B%403ebc3ebc&pageSize=25&showResults=true)
All product listings show 16 digital channels, but knowing Farnell this may be an error, or could be only MSO products listed.
70M 2ch GBP1088
Ordering information
Step 1: choose youroscilloscope model
Two-channel model: R&S®RTB2002
Four-channel model: R&S®RTB2004
Included accessories: All models include the R&S®RT-ZP03 single-ended passive probe for each channel, power cord and 3-year warranty.
Step 2: choose yourbandwidth option
70 MHz bandwidth
standard for two-channel and four-channel models
100 MHz bandwidth
R&S®RTB-B221 for R&S®RTB2002
R&S®RTB-B241 for R&S®RTB2004
200 MHz bandwidth
R&S®RTB-B222 for R&S®RTB2002
R&S®RTB-B242 for R&S®RTB2004
300 MHz bandwidth
R&S®RTB-B223 for R&S®RTB2002
R&S®RTB-B243 for R&S®RTB2004
Step 3: choose your options and accessories
Software options
Triggering and decoding
R&S®RTB-K1 I2C/SPI
R&S®RTB-K2 UART/RS-232/422/485
R&S®RTB-K3 CAN/LIN
History and segmented memory
R&S®RTB-15
Hardware options
R&S®RTB-B1 mixed signal upgrade for non-MSO models, 250 MHz
R&S®RTB-B6 arbitrary waveform generator
Accessories
R&S®RTB-Z1 plastic front cover
R&S®RTB-Z3 soft carrying bag
R&S®ZZA-RTB2K rackmount kit
No separate Y controls :--
Also noticed 1mv/div without bandwidth limitation.
BTW, they have direct PDF comparison sheet against:The low end Lecroy 3000 is an outlier amongst the price class. But all those scopes above with this new R&S model offer some particular value to the customer, none are stupid purchases or particularly poor value if chose for their strengths (except possibly the Lecroy 2000)
LeCroy WaveAce 2000
Rigol MSO2000A
Tek TBS2000
Tek MSO2000B
Keysight MSOX2000A
That tell you who they think their competition is, or they are too scared to compare to any others?
LAN and display over Ethernet shipped standard
MSO GBP609
I2C+SPI £418
UART £418
Why do DSO manufacturers miss the fact that there are USB based LAs with much more supported protocols plus a few advantages over a DSO for less money? I fully agree with you that decoding for the most common protocols should be a built-in standard feature.
Why do DSO manufacturers miss the fact that there are USB based LAs with much more supported protocols plus a few advantages over a DSO for less money? I fully agree with you that decoding for the most common protocols should be a built-in standard feature.
I will have my hands on a new low end 2CH entry level scope tomorrow that supposedly has free serial decoding built in.
Chipies
(http://i.imgur.com/Azf4wk8.jpg)
The "killer features" here are the 10 bit ADC and 10.1" cap touch 1280 x 800 screen. No other scope in the bracket has those.
Its typical in this end of the scope market, 50 ohm input impedance is usually associated with active probes and >500MHz bandwidth.The "killer features" here are the 10 bit ADC and 10.1" cap touch 1280 x 800 screen. No other scope in the bracket has those.
They can shove it all up their ass if they do not give 50 Ohm input. How possibly it is a problem to add one?
Its typical in this end of the scope market, 50 ohm input impedance is usually associated with active probes and >500MHz bandwidth.The "killer features" here are the 10 bit ADC and 10.1" cap touch 1280 x 800 screen. No other scope in the bracket has those.
They can shove it all up their ass if they do not give 50 Ohm input. How possibly it is a problem to add one?
'The Game' is this feature upgrade bullshit, that is flatly dishonest.
I'd rather not have anything to do with companies that practice such tricks.
The "killer features" here are the 10 bit ADC and 10.1" cap touch 1280 x 800 screen. No other scope in the bracket has those.They can shove it all up their ass if they do not give 50 Ohm input. How possibly it is a problem to add one?
Hello folks - R&S is launching a new MSOX game changer - killer scope [...]
It comes with advanced features - rather low cost - it is a no brainer ... [...]
Hello Dave ,
Is this new low end 2Ch scope with free decode something different than the R&S.
I will have my hands on a new low end 2CH entry level scope tomorrow that supposedly has free serial decoding built in.Live unboxing?
Live unboxing?
The survey said people hate live shows...
I will have my hands on a new low end 2CH entry level scope tomorrow that supposedly has free serial decoding built in.Live unboxing?
The survey said people hate live shows...
The survey said people hate live shows...
BTW, they have direct PDF comparison sheet against:
LeCroy WaveAce 2000
Rigol MSO2000A
Tek TBS2000
Tek MSO2000B
Keysight MSOX2000A
That tell you who they think their competition is, or they are too scared to compare to any others?
They could have at least picked a signal with an anomaly for the Annotation marketing ::)
(http://i.imgur.com/lpYYiUe.png)
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/rtb2004/Rohde_&_Schwarz-rtb2004-b5.jpg)
That usually only works for the manufacturer's own probes so it is pretty useless for generic use. I rather have a good UI to setup the probes.No builtin 50 ohm termination does kind of suck.I'd sooner have auto probe sensing
http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm)It is interesting that this website lists Hameg MSO probes as an acessoiry. I think there is more Hameg under the hood than R&S. I hope this scope has the BNCs bolted to the front and the PCB properly fixed to the chassis unlike the cheaply built Hameg scopes.
EUR 1900.-- + VAT
Nice wide holes on the air vent grills.Nice for critters to make a home in. :--
edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:I have a 3 year old R&S scope and it came with ribbon cable for the MSO probes and it was discounted to Euro 300! :-DD
edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:No, the ribbon calbe usually goes into a small box, which has some 0.1 cent component in it.
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
:palm:
Yes. R&S do not make hobbyist level priced gear.Last time I was talking to them on Electronica, I had the feeling that they are targeting the entry level market. They handed me a "Value instruments katalog 2016". My feeling was it is still too expensive, but probably there are deals if you call their sales office.
The stupid thing is that if they'd price the individual ones more reasonably (e.g. as per DSOX1102) I'm sure they'd sell a lot more and possibly make more overall.They do that because how big companies work. It is easier to get to convince upper management to get a 2000 EUR instrument than a 4000 EUR one. And then you can just order the 400EUR upgrades, without them even knowing about it. Most middle managers have some 500EUR signing capability. Meaning they are allowed to order stuff for that amount, without discussing it. It is stupid, but big companies work stupid.
The other stupid thing is why are they even bothering to sell non-physical items through distribution. They could do them online cheaper by cutting out the middle man.
Simple probe divider ratios using a resistor are standard across all the probes I've ever seenThat usually only works for the manufacturer's own probes so it is pretty useless for generic use. I rather have a good UI to setup the probes.No builtin 50 ohm termination does kind of suck.I'd sooner have auto probe sensing
No separate Y controls :--The menus at the top are shortcuts (similar to our toolbar on the RTO/RTE family). They are configurable. The main menu is on the righthand side - it pops up but then goes away to allow the waveform to use the full display. It also has the light pipes around the volt/div knob - no separate Y controls, but relatively straight forward which channel you are changing (and allowed the massive display). I'll be curious to hear your feedback after using them.
But plenty of buttons :-+
Looks like the touch menus etc. are at the top of the screen, not the bottom. Not ideal (screen obscured by hand, fatigue) but maybe configurable?
-Rich
Got one just before the weekend and managed to get some early playing around filmed, on youtube here.Bit of a glitch at 5:40?
https://youtu.be/7YxFoahKxQ0
First impressions are very positive, good screen, good interface and the little features like booting up is pretty quick.
The wavegen is powerful and as you'd expect from a scope with a 10 bit ADC, the FFT and measurements functions are impressive.
If there are any particular questions, I can go through them tonight when I get back from work and try and answer some!
The pattern generator seems to be a bit of a missed opportunity to add something really useful and differentiate it from other scopes.
AFAICS, the outputs are fixed voltage, and the loop-tag connections are only really suited to hanging a scope probe off.
So doesn't look useful for much more than training signals.
If they'd had a connector ( e.g. 10W IDC), and either variable or 5/3.33/2.5/1.8v selection it would have been so much more useful.
Got one just before the weekend and managed to get some early playing around filmed, on youtube here.How many points is the FFT you where showing? And what is the maximum FFT length?
the FFT and measurements functions are impressive.
Got one just before the weekend and managed to get some early playing around filmed, on youtube here.How many points is the FFT you where showing? And what is the maximum FFT length?
the FFT and measurements functions are impressive.
Bit of a glitch at 5:40?Funny, happened during a brief moment when he looked away from the scope and disappeared when he looked back.
Got one just before the weekend and managed to get some early playing around filmed, on youtube here.
https://youtu.be/7YxFoahKxQ0
First impressions are very positive, good screen, good interface and the little features like booting up is pretty quick.
The wavegen is powerful and as you'd expect from a scope with a 10 bit ADC, the FFT and measurements functions are impressive.
If there are any particular questions, I can go through them tonight when I get back from work and try and answer some!
The touch screen seems more like a gimmick that most professional users will not use on a daily basis.Although I'm a die-hard "knobs & buttons" person, I find I do use the touchscreen on my MSOX3104T, and start to miss it when using scopes without. It does seem to have exceptional fingermark resistance on its glass anti-reflective screen.
If there are any particular questions, I can go through them tonight when I get back from work and try and answer some!Can you do some pics/vid of the various colour-graded and inverse brightness modes, ideally with a nontrivial waveform like analogue video or AM.
Touch saves some space on the edges of the screen as you can use touch in lieu of push buttons. I'd question the longevity of the touch screen. Daniel likes to show off the added functionality of touch in his demonstrations and it's certainly better than voice control.If it is made with some sort of glass surface like modern smartphones/tablets, then it will be virtually indestructible for such use.
If I remember correctly, the small box has the comparators in it, converting the sensed input signals into differential signals.edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:No, the ribbon calbe usually goes into a small box, which has some 0.1 cent component in it.
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
:palm:
I think there is more Hameg under the hood than R&S.
Bit of a glitch at 5:40?Funny, happened during a brief moment when he looked away from the scope and disappeared when he looked back.
If there are any particular questions, I can go through them tonight when I get back from work and try and answer some!Can you do some pics/vid of the various colour-graded and inverse brightness modes, ideally with a nontrivial waveform like analogue video or AM.
I would say, this is a Hameg device.
First, it's to cheap for R&S and second on the datatec page
they call the manufaturer "Rohde & Schwarz Value Instruments"
and "Value Instruments" in my oppinion, is the new name for the
old Hamge brand.
Yep, most likely a Hameg. Let's see if they do a promotion with free decode options as they have done in the past. 800 bucks for UART, I2C and SPI is insane.
Yep, most likely a Hameg. Let's see if they do a promotion with free decode options as they have done in the past. 800 bucks for UART, I2C and SPI is insane.
That is true but ribbon cable is the worse choice by far because the insulation is weak (melts quickly) and the wire strands are brittle. Ribbon cable is intended for stationary use inside enclosures.edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:If I remember correctly, the small box has the comparators in it, converting the sensed input signals into differential signals.
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
:palm:
Ribbon cable has close to 100ohms impedance between neighbouring wires, so it is useable for differential signals like LVDS up to many 100MBits/s.
No, it does not.No separate Y controls :--The menus at the top are shortcuts (similar to our toolbar on the RTO/RTE family). They are configurable. The main menu is on the righthand side - it pops up but then goes away to allow the waveform to use the full display. It also has the light pipes around the volt/div knob - no separate Y controls, but relatively straight forward which channel you are changing (and allowed the massive display). I'll be curious to hear your feedback after using them.
But plenty of buttons :-+
Looks like the touch menus etc. are at the top of the screen, not the bottom. Not ideal (screen obscured by hand, fatigue) but maybe configurable?
-Rich
Does it support virtual screen as the HMO series does?
Yep, most likely a Hameg. Let's see if they do a promotion with free decode options as they have done in the past. 800 bucks for UART, I2C and SPI is insane.
It's nuts when a new sub $400 scope has them built in as standard. It's sitting in my dumpster, wait for it...
I would speculate Rigol, as the 1000X and 2000X series from Siglent are fairly recent, and Rigol is the one that should come with a new model, given no new models for a long time, except the DS4000E series, which were not a big success anyhow.
Here is a good marketing slogan for Rigol in the mean time: "We are back!" :)
Here is a good marketing slogan for Rigol in the mean time: "We are back!" :)
GWInstek or Micsig. Maybe?
I really wish Micsig made conventional oscilloscopes...Yeah, that would be nice.
Wonder if the original Hameg Mainhausen office is still up and ticking in the wake of R&S?
Here is a good marketing slogan for Rigol in the mean time: "We are back!" :)A better slogan would be "We have studied hard!" because they show an astonishingly toxic lack of attention to detail. They seem to do some clerical work, not actual product development.
GWInstek or Micsig. Maybe?
but : no vertical per channel knobs. massive fail.The touchscreen, and I think the colouring of the vertical buttons with the currently selected channel may go some way to making this less of an issue once you get used to them.
By all means, who is going to be proud to show off to his friend about his new scope that he got, where the E indicates Economy.If you have friends that really cares about that just tell them it stands for Enhanced and not Economy or scrape the letter off you're that embarrassed. You seem more interested in color schemes, what the knobs look like, what font is being used and how exactly the serial number is composed than what the instruments actually do.
wowwwww I like!!!!! I want buy one!!
Now calculate the impedance of a passive probe at 300MHz. The signal gets loaded so much that you won't get a decent representation of what signal is actually there. Feedthroughs are also nothing more than a band aid because the scope's input capacitance will screw things up.
OK I'm sorry the laws of physics are the way they are. I'll change them ASAP for you.Now calculate the impedance of a passive probe at 300MHz. The signal gets loaded so much that you won't get a decent representation of what signal is actually there. Feedthroughs are also nothing more than a band aid because the scope's input capacitance will screw things up.I guess there really is no pleasing some people.
I considered to buy a HMO1232 but now I think I'll go for the RTB2004 - 70MHz
Reasons:
- 4 channels input
- 10.1 Inches screen
- 10bit ADC
- 1.25GS/channel
- up to 20 MSPS memory depth
- 50k waveforms/s
- nearly the same price
- I do not need really 300MHz and if I want, I can upgrade to 100MHz which is affordable (but imho way too expensive anyway)
If there are any particular questions, I can go through them tonight when I get back from work and try and answer some!Can you do some pics/vid of the various colour-graded and inverse brightness modes, ideally with a nontrivial waveform like analogue video or AM.
but : no vertical per channel knobs. massive fail.The touchscreen, and I think the colouring of the vertical buttons with the currently selected channel may go some way to making this less of an issue once you get used to them.
QuoteBy all means, who is going to be proud to show off to his friend about his new scope that he got, where the E indicates Economy.If you have friends that really cares about that just tell them it stands for Enhanced and not Economy or scrape the letter off you're that embarrassed. You seem more interested in color schemes, what the knobs look like, what font is being used and how exactly the serial number is composed than what the instruments actually do.
Back to the R&S scope in question, how's the screen when it comes to glare and reflections? It looks rather glossy.
with pattern generator. i hope it can do spi and i2c ... would be cool.
but : no vertical per channel knobs. massive fail.
Counter, Arbitrary, Manual, UART, SPI, I2C, CAN and LIN. Someone needs to make a nice comparator with a variable supply to fix the last oversight and it's a very nice feature!What does it offer in the way of configuring the data output - can you make it output users strings over UART etc. ?
What operating system are they using? Linux?Open Source page mentions FreeRTOS. Seems to start very fast.
I think that Keysight will have to come up with a new scope...
Open Source Acknowledgment 1333.1663.00 ? 01
2 Software packages The software contained in this product makes use of the following open source software packages.
Package
License
Altera SOC EDS
BSD-3
FreeRTOS
GPL 2 with Free-RTOS Exception
FreeType 1
FreeType Project License
giflib
MIT
libpng
libpng License
libstdc++
GPL 3
GCC Runtime Library Exception 3.1
LwIP
BSD-3
nanoX
MPL 1.1
newlib
BSD-3
OpenSSL
OpenSSL/SSLeay License
zlib
zlib 1.2.7
This product includes software developed by the OpenSSL Proje
Auto/norm button, LIKE! Not sure why more scopes don't have this as a simple toggle button, it is such a frequently used mode change.
I may be mistaken but the screen looks glossy rather than matt, if it is I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.
Regarding DaveW's video, thanks for making that. How long have you had it? There was a lot of gushing "fantastic", "excellent", "really nice", "I like that", etc, so it's difficult to work out if this was R&S sponsored? It seemed much more like a commercial than a candid review to me, apologies if I've misinterpreted that.
Auto/norm button, LIKE! Not sure why more scopes don't have this as a simple toggle button, it is such a frequently used mode change.The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.
I may be mistaken but the screen looks glossy rather than matt, if it is I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.
I may be mistaken but the screen looks glossy rather than matt, if it is I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.
I don't think such a thing as non-glossy LCD touchscreen exists. And you don't want resistive there.
The Keysight scopes have a non-glossy screen, captouch on the MSOX31024T.I may be mistaken but the screen looks glossy rather than matt, if it is I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.
I don't think such a thing as non-glossy capacitive LCD touchscreen exists. And you don't want resistive there.
EDIT:
Capacitive touchscreen. Forgot to add "capacitive".
The Keysight scopes have a non-glossy screen, captouch on the MSOX31024T.
Don't know how it's made but it's glass, nonreflective and remarkably fingermark-resistant.The Keysight scopes have a non-glossy screen, captouch on the MSOX31024T.
Non-glossy as in smooth glass surface with good antireflex layer applied or differrent type of surface altogether?
Don't know how it's made but it's glass, nonreflective and remarkably fingermark-resistant. Although it doesn't have a touchscreen. The DSOX1000 also has a glass antireflective sheet in front of the LCD moduleThe Keysight scopes have a non-glossy screen, captouch on the MSOX31024T.
Non-glossy as in smooth glass surface with good antireflex layer applied or differrent type of surface altogether?
Re-punctuated for clarity!Don't know how it's made but it's glass, nonreflective and remarkably fingermark-resistant. Although it doesn't have a touchscreen. The DSOX1000 also has a glass antireflective sheet in front of the LCD moduleThe Keysight scopes have a non-glossy screen, captouch on the MSOX31024T.
Non-glossy as in smooth glass surface with good antireflex layer applied or differrent type of surface altogether?
btw, Mike is saying the DSOX1000 doesn't have a touchscreen, the 3000T series does.
The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.
Why would any manufacturer want to hide Auto/Normal trigger in a Menu ? :-//The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.
Oh! Hadn't thought of this. Excellent idea.
I hate faffing through the menus to change this.
Why would any manufacturer want to hide Auto/Normal trigger in a Menu ? :-//
All Siglent scopes have always had it as two separate physical buttons on the front panel UI.
The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.
No separate Y controls :--You can't have the bi 10.1" screen, 4 separate Y controls, and a small bench scope, something has to give,
MSO GBP609Why do DSO manufacturers miss the fact that there are USB based LAs with much more supported protocols plus a few advantages over a DSO for less money? I fully agree with you that decoding for the most common protocols should be a built-in standard feature.
I2C+SPI £418
UART £418
And that's your trouble, I didn't say anything like that. :PWhy would any manufacturer want to hide Auto/Normal trigger in a Menu ? :-//
All Siglent scopes have always had it as two separate physical buttons on the front panel UI.
I appreciate that you are a "rabid Siglent distributor". ;)
But I think you would do yourself and your credibility a favor if you tone it down a bit, and limit the frequency of "Siglent is better" posts...
Daniel likes to show off the added functionality of touch in his demonstrations and it's certainly better than voice control.
I'd question the longevity of the touch screen.If it is made with some sort of glass surface like modern smartphones/tablets, then it will be virtually indestructible for such use.
MSO GBP609Why do DSO manufacturers miss the fact that there are USB based LAs with much more supported protocols plus a few advantages over a DSO for less money? I fully agree with you that decoding for the most common protocols should be a built-in standard feature.
I2C+SPI £418
UART £418
It's just marketing. As soon as one big player starts giving them away for free then they all will.
Until then? People are paying money so... :-//
I think some of the high-end KS scopes have voice control. I can see how it would be useful in some niche situations, where all your hands are tied up holding sketchy probing arrangements.Daniel likes to show off the added functionality of touch in his demonstrations and it's certainly better than voice control.
Voice control? :scared:
That would be in the special EE version of hell. :-DD
And the particular connector shown in that photo will break after you pull it out half a dozen times.That is true but ribbon cable is the worse choice by far because the insulation is weak (melts quickly) and the wire strands are brittle.edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:If I remember correctly, the small box has the comparators in it, converting the sensed input signals into differential signals.
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
:palm:
Ribbon cable has close to 100ohms impedance between neighbouring wires, so it is useable for differential signals like LVDS up to many 100MBits/s.
It's just marketing. As soon as one big player starts giving them away for free then they all will.
Until then? People are paying money so... :-//
I got a new scope in my lab today that comes with free serial decode, and it's under $400.
It's started...
I was going to write Owon or Hantek but Rigol also makes sense.
Unless it's got a really good FFT and a few other tricks. nudge, wink, wink.It's just marketing. As soon as one big player starts giving them away for free then they all will.
Until then? People are paying money so... :-//
I got a new scope in my lab today that comes with free serial decode, and it's under $400.
It's started...
Sure, but it won't be a "professional" 'scope so it won't change anything.
The DS1054Z has had free serial decode for a while, too (nudge, nudge, wink, wink...)
few other tricks
Highlights:
1.25Gs/s with 4 channels on
10" 1280x800 touch screen
70, 100, 200 and 300 MHz (but no 50 Ohm input mode so 300MHz is quite useless)
10 bit ADC
10Mpts per channel (but it seems to be shared with the digital channels so caveat emptor)
Peak detect acquisition mode included
Protocol decoding and digital inputs optional
Manual up already! I see 8 upgrade options..
1. Mixed signal option, additional 16 logic channels
2. Waveform generator and 4-bit pattern generator
3. Bandwith upgrades, 100 MHz, 200 MHz, 300 MHz
4. I2C triggering and decoding
5. UART/RS-232/RS-422/RS-485 triggering and decoding
6. CAN triggering and decoding
7. LIN triggering and decoding
8. History and segmented memory
I think some of the high-end KS scopes have voice control. I can see how it would be useful in some niche situations, where all your hands are tied up holding sketchy probing arrangements.Daniel likes to show off the added functionality of touch in his demonstrations and it's certainly better than voice control.
Voice control? :scared:
That would be in the special EE version of hell. :-DD
At least Keysight has the all-in-one application bundle which isn't actually too badly priced. Would really have to take a look at the full pricelist for the new RTB before I can decide how worthwhile it is to consider.R&S also do an app bundle - I linked to it earlier in this thread. OK value if you need most of it, but individual decodes, especially as UART & I2C+SPI are seperate options and crazy expensive.
Voice control in an engineering lab environment.... Just imagine all the colourful language the scope would have to be trained to "understand".... :-DD
R&S also do an app bundle - I linked to it earlier in this thread. OK value if you need most of it, but individual decodes, especially as UART & I2C+SPI are seperate options and crazy expensive.
And since R&S are relatively young in the market you don't have the same flood of parts on eBay which can occasionally be acquired for pretty decent prices.
How many decades are not young in the market for you?
And as already stated above, it seems to be of Hameg descent.
And Hameg is not so young I think.
Auto/norm button, LIKE! Not sure why more scopes don't have this as a simple toggle button, it is such a frequently used mode change.The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.
And the particular connector shown in that photo will break after you pull it out half a dozen times.That is true but ribbon cable is the worse choice by far because the insulation is weak (melts quickly) and the wire strands are brittle.edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:If I remember correctly, the small box has the comparators in it, converting the sensed input signals into differential signals.
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
:palm:
Ribbon cable has close to 100ohms impedance between neighbouring wires, so it is useable for differential signals like LVDS up to many 100MBits/s.
(maybe you're only supposed to connect it once and leave it there)
It wouldn't be so bad if the cable was detachable from the magic box so you could replace it but they never are.
You never saw that button and wondered what it did...?Auto/norm button, LIKE! Not sure why more scopes don't have this as a simple toggle button, it is such a frequently used mode change.The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.
Now why didn't I think of that?
You never saw that button and wondered what it did...?Auto/norm button, LIKE! Not sure why more scopes don't have this as a simple toggle button, it is such a frequently used mode change.The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.
Now why didn't I think of that?
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.
Pretty decent savings.
https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.So basically the 300MHz model with all the options for slightly over US $2000.
Pretty decent savings.
https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)
Sure, but it won't be a "professional" 'scope so it won't change anything.It's just marketing. As soon as one big player starts giving them away for free then they all will.
Until then? People are paying money so... :-//
I got a new scope in my lab today that comes with free serial decode, and it's under $400.
It's started...
The DS1054Z has had free serial decode for a while, too (nudge, nudge, wink, wink...)
Hacking the scope does not count.I don't see why hacking wouldn't count. In the end what counts is value for money. Besides that Siglent and Keysight both have almost ongoing special offers where you get the decoding for free. All in all doing decoding out of the box (which GW Instek did first on their GDS-2000E BTW) isn't really special.
By having Siglent say this low end scope now includes free serial decode out of the box, that still says a lot IMO.
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.
Pretty decent savings.
https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)
A bit less expensive at Tequipment with member discount: http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=rtb2k-com4&guid=91eba3a788cd4993988097219695d556&s=1&F_Suggestions=rtb2k-com4&F_OriginalKeyword=RTB2K-COM4.99 (http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=rtb2k-com4&guid=91eba3a788cd4993988097219695d556&s=1&F_Suggestions=rtb2k-com4&F_OriginalKeyword=RTB2K-COM4.99)
Looks great and a good price for all that, but I'd like to see a review (Dave's or otherwise) before further consideration.
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.So basically the 300MHz model with all the options for slightly over US $2000.
Pretty decent savings.
https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)
Hi Folks - as I said in the other thread, not too good to be true. All US and Canada partners can offer this deal. It is specific to US and Canada (sorry folks - other regions will have their own specials). It is a screaming deal - we wanted to give early adopters a fantastic deal. We believe the scope is tops in its class, but the proof is in the pudding as they say, and we want a number of folks to get them in their hands early - we think they'll be pleased and will help build awareness around the scopes.Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.So basically the 300MHz model with all the options for slightly over US $2000.
Pretty decent savings.
https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)
That is insanely good value. I almost wonder if it's an error. "while stocks last" on something that's just launched, and possibly not even actually available yet, seems odd.
At that price it would absolutely be a serious game-changer
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.So basically the 300MHz model with all the options for slightly over US $2000.
Pretty decent savings.
https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)
That is insanely good value. I almost wonder if it's an error. "while stocks last" on something that's just launched, and possibly not even actually available yet, seems odd.
At that price it would absolutely be a serious game-changer
Hello Mike ,Not yet but expecting to know any day - soon I think.
Have you been told when you will receive the scope, I am looking forward to your comparison with your Keysight unit.
Mike are you tempted to get one at these prices .If they hadn't already promised to send me one, and I didn't have the MSOX3104T, definitely.
I went to buy one at $2080 US. and yet again... FAIL these guys can't ship to Canada.
All US and Canada partners can offer this deal.Time to talk to your local friendly Canadian R&S dealer eh?.
Crosses fingers...Hi irakandjii - just replied to your PM. For those looking in Canada, Test Force is our main partner there.
I have been looking for a high bandwidth scope able to handle very long serial decodes. From the brochure this will do the job and all my wish list at that, for not much more than the Picoscope I was looking at.
I went to buy one at $2080 US. and yet again... FAIL these guys can't ship to Canada.
I went to buy one at $2080 US. and yet again... FAIL these guys can't ship to Canada.
I heard today that my unit is being organised. Mix up in Germany or something...
From Siglent (arguably the cheapest mid-range end scope maker) $2k buys you the Siglent SDS2304X 300MHz 4-Ch Digital Oscilloscope without MSO.:)
http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2304x.htm (http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2304x.htm)
Wow, an R&S scope is the same price as a Siglent, but you get MSO + 10 bit ADC + big high res touch screen.
:o :wtf:
Siglent support stated I could only decode what was on the screen "current waveform". According to the rep I could not save what I had and subsequently play it back & decode it again later. For me that excluded the Siglent and a lot of other scopes as well. Did I misunderstand the fellow?
From Siglent (arguably the cheapest mid-range end scope maker) $2k buys you the Siglent SDS2304X 300MHz 4-Ch Digital Oscilloscope without MSO.:)
http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2304x.htm (http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2304x.htm)
Wow, an R&S scope is the same price as a Siglent, but you get MSO + 10 bit ADC + big high res touch screen.
:o :wtf:
The Siglent kicks it's arse for memory depth and wfm/s, probably Pass/Fail too but whe'll have to wait for some proper reviews.
Put a bundle together with AVG, Decode and MSO and have another look at comparable pricing. :scared:
Wow, an R&S scope is the same price as a Siglent, but you get MSO + 10 bit ADC + big high res touch screen.
:o :wtf:
This new wave of oscilloscope wars is heating up quick. Good times. :popcorn:
The R&S can go up to 160Mpts memory depth, which is more than the Siglent has.I think that's across all channels, i.e. 10M/channel max
The Siglent kicks it's arse for memory depth and wfm/s, probably Pass/Fail too but whe'll have to wait for some proper reviews.
Put a bundle together with AVG, Decode and MSO and have another look at comparable pricing. :scared:
Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
Hopefully this is a glitch pending it being in stock.
http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
The Siglent kicks it's arse for memory depth and wfm/s, probably Pass/Fail too but whe'll have to wait for some proper reviews.
Put a bundle together with AVG, Decode and MSO and have another look at comparable pricing. :scared:
I dont like the way teh Siglent sales folks go on and on an on. So i'm crossing it off the list for non technical reasons.
I dont like the way teh Siglent sales folks go on and on an on. So i'm crossing it off the list for non technical reasons.
To avoid people needing to follow the link (which is fragile), thats the full package 4ch 300MHz loaded bundle for $5,176.88 AUD, plus tax. Very "special" deal for Australians.Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
Hopefully this is a glitch pending it being in stock.
http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
It's available in Australia as well but no where near the 2K USD deal :(
http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
I think the low amount of processing power is what will kill Keysight, R&S and Tektronix scopes if they don't catch on. There is so much more you can do with an oscilloscope which has a lot of processing power because it has the ability to analyse large amounts of samples quickly.This new wave of oscilloscope wars is heating up quick. Good times. :popcorn:But The One has not arrived :P R&S has no onboard analysis (wfm math only +-*/) to speak of and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K), meaning it probably has little processing power. It cannot do many things that 5x cheaper scopes can. So user has really understand requirements.
[...] and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K) [...]
Which probes come with the 300MHz version?
I do wonder if you really get all 10 bits at 1mv/div, especially as it's not bandwidth-limitedWhich probes come with the 300MHz version?
Just researched that. :) According to the Test Equity page here
https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/#tabgroup (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/#tabgroup)
at the very bottom:
Included with RTB2002, RTB2004: RT-ZP03 passive voltage probes (one per channel) and power cord.
Then looking those up in the Options & Accessories tab on that page:
Rohde & Schwarz RT-ZP03.02 Passive Probe
Single-ended, 300 MHz/10MHz,, 10:1/1:1, 10 M?/1 M?, 400 V, 12 pF/82 pF (3622.2817.02)
ITEM #: 045701.W
...and they are priced at $100 each. So $400 worth of probes at list price.
Lol, I'm starting to think that for this kind of a deal I could get used to that single set of vertical controls after all. 8) The thing I care about most for what I do is viewing very low level signals. The 10 bit ADC and claimed low-noise front end in this thing might be just the ticket.
How is 128k sub standard? What standard?
Do we all agree here that the R&S scope has a bit of an industrial look?
I do wonder if you really get all 10 bits at 1mv/div, especially as it's not bandwidth-limited
Do we all agree here that the R&S scope has a bit of an industrial look?Do we care? :P
The R&S can go up to 160Mpts memory depth, which is more than the Siglent has.I think that's across all channels, i.e. 10M/channel max
At what speed? An Agilent DSO7104A can also do 128kpts if you have the time to wait several seconds for each FFT calculation. With many points and quick updates FFT becomes a useful tool instead of a gimmick. The problem with FFT in a scope is that the frequency resolution depends on the samplerate (and thus the timebase). The more FFT points you have the less you have to worry about the timebase (seconds/div) setting.[...] and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K) [...]
How is 128k sub standard?
What standard?
It's more than all of the InfiniiVision models if memory serves, and I was also under the impression that R&S FFT is pretty good with RBW settings etc.
Edit: I was wrong, enhanced goes up to 1Mpts FFT (e.g. 6000X)
The R&S can go up to 160Mpts memory depth, which is more than the Siglent has.I think that's across all channels, i.e. 10M/channel max
Without doubt R&S is higher class scope. I do not want make it questionable. Also personally I have been tens of years R&S fan when talk T&M (older) "Rolls Royces"
I do not know what Siglent here is now "compared". ( I do not want compare apples and oranges)
But also I do not like "alternative truths aka trumpling".
R&S this machine here have max 10M for all channels simultaneously and 20M for channel (not interleaved)
Siglent
SDS2000 have max 35M for all channels simultaneously and 70M for channel not interleaved. 4ch models have 2x70M
SDS2000X max 70M for all channels simultaneously and 140M for channel not interleaved. 4ch models have 2x140M
For segmented memory acq there is available up to 180M (least in SDS2000, just checked)
Max speed 500 ksegment/s.
Example (checked w SDS2304: 4ch on. 1us/div 1GSa/s. Segment length 14k for every channel. 3323 segment 4x14000x3323= ~186 Msample.
(Maximum memory for history/segments is not available with all t/div and segment sizes.)
For waveform history same amount as segmented. (R&S and Siglent have this very nice feature)
waveform history buffer works just same speed what is current wfm/s speed in use (up to 140kwfm/s)
just for right facts, not like this is better etc...
I do wonder if you really get all 10 bits at 1mv/div, especially as it's not bandwidth-limited
You'll get'em, nobody said anything about useful ;D
The wider the bandwidth the greater the noise floor.
Interesting video but the GDS-2204E can achieve the same using input filtering. In a project I'm currently working on this has been very useful to catch low amplitude signals while the actual signal is swamped with noise.Tek 8 bit scope verses Agilent 12 bit scope. It's not all about the bits !!I do wonder if you really get all 10 bits at 1mv/div, especially as it's not bandwidth-limitedYou'll get'em, nobody said anything about useful ;D
The wider the bandwidth the greater the noise floor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYV7HOv4z_U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYV7HOv4z_U)
This new wave of oscilloscope wars is heating up quick. Good times. :popcorn:
But The One has not arrived :P R&S has no onboard analysis (wfm math only +-*/) to speak of and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K), meaning it probably has little processing power. It cannot do many things that 5x cheaper scopes can. So user has really understand requirements.
I'll do my best to keep up.
Connectivity
The R&S®RTB2000 can be directly connected to a PC via the built-in USB host and USB device ports. The USB host transfers screenshots or instrument settings to a USB stick. Media transfer protocol (MTP) implementation ensures seamless integration. The USB device port and the LAN interface also enable remote control. The built-in web server functionality allows users to control the oscilloscope and display their screen content to an audience. Data and programming interfaces are included, e.g. for seamless MATLAB® integration.
There are also a lot of questions around the Launch Edition. Just to clarify, it is an amazing deal, but the quantity is limited and when the Launch Edition is gone, it's gone. That's why it says "while supplies last". As I mentioned before, we wanted to create excitement and encourage early adopters.
Greatly appreciate the feedback and I'll pass it on to our planners. And while the RTB doesn't offer a peak search capability for the FFT, you can always use cursors to track the spectrum and read out the XY parameters on the spectrum. Not exactly the same, but does offer some additional insight beyond the markings we put in the graticule.
I'll do my best to keep up.
OK, here are a few feedback points for your product planners:
1. Probe sensing and 50 Ohm input go a long way to make the RTB the king of the hill in this segment. This "miss" is a hard-stop since it requires hardware. It's strange R&S decided to cap it there. You've come so far, why not the extra couple of resistors and a few more lines of code in the firmware to make it impossible to resist?
2. FFT's are commonplace in entry scopes now. To be truly useful, FFTs need adjustable scale ranges and peak and harmonic markers. R&S make some of the best spectrum analyzers so they know how to do this perhaps better than anyone else. So the way this has been implemented on the RTO and RTE scopes is truly excellent. A simpler version on the RTB (just like Quick Measure which is on all R&S scopes) would be truly icing on the cake. I would gladly take a 32Kpts FFT with markers over a 1Mpts without markers any day of the week.
3. One last point - make rubber corner bumpers and DC input an option so the RTB can be used on- and off-the bench.
Just a few ideas to turn this into the irresistible $2K king of the hill, and possibly, even the king of the road. Good luck.
And while the RTB doesn't offer a peak search capability for the FFT, you can always use cursors to track the spectrum and read out the XY parameters on the spectrum. Not exactly the same, but does offer some additional insight beyond the markings we put in the graticule.
OK, here are a few feedback points for your product planners:
1. Probe sensing and 50 Ohm input go a long way to make the RTB the king of the hill in this segment. This "miss" is a hard-stop since it requires hardware. It's strange R&S decided to cap it there. You've come so far, why not the extra couple of resistors and a few more lines of code in the firmware to make it impossible to resist?
2. FFT's are commonplace in entry scopes now. To be truly useful, FFTs need adjustable scale ranges and peak and harmonic markers. R&S make some of the best spectrum analyzers so they know how to do this perhaps better than anyone else. So the way this has been implemented on the RTO and RTE scopes is truly excellent. A simpler version on the RTB (just like Quick Measure which is on all R&S scopes) would be truly icing on the cake. I would gladly take a 32Kpts FFT with markers over a 1Mpts without markers any day of the week.
3. One last point - make rubber corner bumpers and DC input an option so the RTB can be used on- and off-the bench.
Just a few ideas to turn this into the irresistible $2K king of the hill, and possibly, even the king of the road. Good luck.
This is what I am talking about. It is an FFT from a UPV analyzing an AC inverter waveform. The RTB2K can easily do this and more, and present it the same clear, R&S way. How hard can it be when you already have the code?
How many pixels are in that screenshot you took? About three million?
1920 x 1200 = 2,304,000 pixels.
R&S are selling more than this one scope product. And they probably want to continue selling their much more expensive high-end scopes, and their expensive spectrum analysers as well. I am pretty sure the product planners have thought about this, and have intentionally limited the RTB scope in some respects -- not just to cut costs, but also to maintain differentiation for the high-end products.
Right, and it already looks crowded to the point of being nearly illegible. The scope has less than half as many pixels to work with. It also has to support various other UI elements that the desktop application can hide in other menus or windows.
Figuring out where to put all of those markers and labels is not trivial when you're designing a UI for a dedicated instrument like this.
Fairly long demo video here - in Polish with annoying music but with the sound down& you should get an idea of responsiveness etc.
I would gladly take a 32Kpts FFT with markers over a 1Mpts without markers any day of the week.You don't have to make that compromise. Still screen real estate is limited on a small DSO so there have to be some limits to what can be displayed.
You don't have to make that compromise. Still screen real estate is limited on a small DSO so there have to be some limits to what can be displayed.
Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe:(
GBP4785 :(
...
Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
...
There are also a lot of questions around the Launch Edition. Just to clarify, it is an amazing deal, but the quantity is limited and when the Launch Edition is gone, it's gone. That's why it says "while supplies last".
I just noticed this scope does not seem to have a "persistence" mode in the display. Am I missing something?
If it is not there, is this a significant issue? I am still not really sure how useful it is, but it seems to be a big talking point on competitive scopes. So some real advice would be useful.
I just noticed this scope does not seem to have a "persistence" mode in the display. Am I missing something?
If it is not there, is this a significant issue? I am still not really sure how useful it is, but it seems to be a big talking point on competitive scopes. So some real advice would be useful.
A quick search of the manual says it has persistence controls as you'd expect.
Just been having a more detailed look through the manual.
.......
Obvious omissions :
No Nth-edge burst or runt pulse trigger
No integration/difference maths function
No event search ( never used it myself but I can see how could be useful)
No foreign language help, only menus etc. ( expect that may get done at some point)
SEARCH
Enables the search with the last configured setup. The second keypress opens the
"Search" menu, where you can perform a search for various events in an acquisition -
for example, peaks or specific width conditions - and analyze the search results.
Looks like this R&S scope has stolen the limelight away from Keysights new offering. Maybe saving your money and getting a 'real' scope was good advice from Keysight ;)The R&S scope isn't competing with Keysight's new scope, so they probably aren't getting the same people's interest.
Looks like this R&S scope has stolen the limelight away from Keysights new offering. Maybe saving your money and getting a 'real' scope was good advice from Keysight ;)The R&S scope isn't competing with Keysight's new scope, so they probably aren't getting the same people's interest.
Q. Does the ADC run at 10-bits even at 1mV/div?
A. Yes. You also get full bandwidth. The scope also has very good noise for this class of instrument.
I saw runt pulse triggering in one of the documents (there are many) on their site, same for event search. Math/s functions do seem limited however. I've found from my reading and demo watching (there are series of app demos on their site too) that there's much that is in this scope that's not in the current version of the manual.
Here's the trigger system document that says it has runt pulse triggering: https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/service_support_30/RTH_Faster_ac_en_3607-3339-92_v0100.pdf
Uh, yeah, that's what new products are supposed to do. They tend to fail miserably if they don't.Looks like this R&S scope has stolen the limelight away from Keysights new offering. Maybe saving your money and getting a 'real' scope was good advice from Keysight ;)The R&S scope isn't competing with Keysight's new scope, so they probably aren't getting the same people's interest.
No but its competing with their other scopes, ( like the 3000X
Looks like this R&S scope has stolen the limelight away from Keysights new offering. Maybe saving your money and getting a 'real' scope was good advice from Keysight ;)
Looks like this R&S scope has stolen the limelight away from Keysights new offering. Maybe saving your money and getting a 'real' scope was good advice from Keysight ;)
Half an order of magnitude price difference.
I investigated into this, and this was promotion was offered to our European distributors as well. But none of them were ready to take this on (it's beyond me why). The closet we got is with Farnell who have this going on currently,
http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2004+COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2004+COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
So, for the price of a 300MHz model, all the options all included free of charge. It's never to say that we will not have the same deal in Europe as we run promotions every 6 months. So watch this space.
There has to be some anti-competitive laws against that :--Hard to see how. Farnell are offering a bundle with all options for price of 300MHz model. Others just chose not to offer the promotion.
I don't know if this has clearly been stated this anywhere but the MAX FFT sample size is 10M and not 128k on the RTB2000 series . I confirmed this with the local R&S branch today.
What's In The Box
(1) RTB2004 Digital oscilloscope (70 MHz 4 channel)
(1) RTB-B243 Upgrade of R&S RTB2004 oscilloscope to 300 MHz bandwidth
(1) RTB-B1 Mixed Signal Upgrade for non-MSO models (250 MHz)
(1) RTB-B6 ARB Generator
(1) RTB-K1 I2C/SPI Trigger and Decode
(1) RTB-K2 UART/RS232 Trigger and Decode
(1) RTB-K3 CAN/LIN Trigger and Decode
(1) RTB-K15 History and Segment Meomry
(1) RT-ZP03 300 MHz/10 MHz, 10:1/1:1, 10 M?/1 M?, 400 V, 12 pF/82 pF Single-ended Passive Probe
(1) Power Cord
The only reference I can find for the RTB2004 included items states 300 Mhz probes for the scope. The manual indicates you should have 1.5X the bandwidth as a minimum probe specification.
Can Rich or anyone else confirm what actually comes with the 300 Mhz version of this scope?
. Is there something wrong with using the "good old" 50 ohm Tee connector? Is there a practical impact?
Hi agdr - I can try to help some here, but as you know noise is pretty complicated and can be tough to compare apples to apples. A couple comments:
Q. Does the ADC run at 10-bits even at 1mV/div?
A. Yes. You also get full bandwidth. The scope also has very good noise for this class of instrument.
Rich, could you get the lab to quantify that at 100Mhz and the 300MHz of the RTB2004 sales special? I was just leafing through the 6000 series Keysight website and noticed they do, below. 115 uVrms noise floor at 1mV/div at 1GHz BW. I've searched through the RTB200o0 datasheet here
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_dat-sw_en_3607-4270-22_v0400.pdf (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_dat-sw_en_3607-4270-22_v0400.pdf) (opens PDF)
and I'm not finding the number in the vertical section.
Thanks!
Hi agdr - I can try to help some here, but as you know noise is pretty complicated and can be tough to compare apples to apples.
They all have (had) them in stock, but demand has been strong. I think your best bet is to contact them directly to see lead times. And thanks for your order! I think you'll be pleased :-+Hi agdr - I can try to help some here, but as you know noise is pretty complicated and can be tough to compare apples to apples.
Thank you! That makes me glad I bought one of your introduction special scope bundles yesterday. :) Yeah I originally had a sentence in there like "Not saying the 6000 series is comparable to the RTB2000, just that the other guys are publishing noise floor numbers" but deleted it. Keysight's 3000 or 4000 series is actually the "other" choice I've been looking at, the 3034A in fact, so your test here is right on the money.
No shipping confirm from Tequipment on your bundle yet. I'll have to call them today. Are the distributors supposed to have that bundle in stock, or do they order them from R&S as orders come in?
This was what I thought from my university days .. some 40 odd years ago. That being said, knowledge and technical practice march on. Is there something wrong with using the "good old" 50 ohm Tee connector? Is there a practical impact?There is nothing wrong with a 50 Ohm terminator on a Tee just don't think a 1M Ohm input will work well at high frequencies (150MHz is pushing the limits)
The only reference I can find for the RTB2004 included items states 300 Mhz probes for the scope. The manual indicates you should have 1.5X the bandwidth as a minimum probe specification.Hi irakandjii - you can ignore my PM now - I found your question. Sorry for missing it earlier. All RTB2000s come with the ZP03 probe standard, including the 300MHz model.
Can Rich or anyone else confirm what actually comes with the 300 Mhz version of this scope?
Another vid, from Brazil this time...Thanks for sharing that, Mike. Despite the video uses a somewhat annoying background music and there are some unfortunate cuts on it (during the protocol analyzer setup, for instance), the UI looks pretty responsive and it is well rounded with features.
They all have (had) them in stock, but demand has been strong. I think your best bet is to contact them directly to see lead times. And thanks for your order! I think you'll be pleased :-+
-Rich
Any way you could say what kind of limit there is on launch bundle, or a range, estimated stock time?I heard 200 worldwide. Possibly other promotions in 6 months' time, but I'd be surprised to see anything close to the current one
They all have (had) them in stock, but demand has been strong. I think your best bet is to contact them directly to see lead times. And thanks for your order! I think you'll be pleased :-+
On the plus side, we can sell the RTB's directly though R&S UK. So we might be able to offer a better deal in most scenarios.
. Is there something wrong with using the "good old" 50 ohm Tee connector? Is there a practical impact?
Yes there is. It is never there anywhere on the bench when you need it.
Quote from: maginnovisionAny way you could say what kind of limit there is on launch bundle, or a range, estimated stock time?I heard 200 worldwide. Possibly other promotions in 6 months' time, but I'd be surprised to see anything close to the current one
Back in the days of coax Ethernet and Arcnet, I always had an animal 'sculpture' made of T connectors and terminators on my desk. I haven't seen one personally in probably 15 years.
Just heard from someone that Testequity wouldn't ship to a UPS hub, or if a non-US phone number given
Back in the days of coax Ethernet and Arcnet, I always had an animal 'sculpture' made of T connectors and terminators on my desk. I haven't seen one personally in probably 15 years.
Should have it next Wed.
Anybody knows how quiet the scope is? Having a piece of TE that's quiet out of the box would be great for a change.
Anybody knows how quiet the scope is? Having a piece of TE that's quiet out of the box would be great for a change.
on page 12 of
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf
it says: "Audible noise | maximum sound pressure level at a distance of 1.0 m | 28.3 dB(A)"
anybody has an idea how loud this is? from google it looks pretty silent, but actually I have no real feeling for how loud it really is. do you have any comparison?
Any sign if they are using a fan? Or is it passively cooled?
Just been having a more detailed look through the manual.
Some unusual features :
USB - can be configured as
TMC ( test/measure class - like most scopes)
VCP - COM port for SCPI commands via terminal - no LXI drivers etc.needed just so send some simple commands
Mass Storage - scope appears as a drive on the PC
Grid can be made to track the waveform as you scroll. Could be really handy for manually decoding serial protocols - keeping timeslots in a consistent place.
Time/Voltage values shown on every grid line ( optional)
1gbit ethernet - appears to support live screen updates via web interface. (Even mentions using a RasPi to do it for low-cost HDMI output! (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Project_ac_en_3607-3239_92_v0100.pdf))
Colour intensity modes, and inverse mode - infrequent signals show up more brightly - sounds really useful for catching occasional glitches etc.
Simultaneous XY and waveform display, and XYY to display 2 Y axes ( 3-phase?)
Defaults to 50mS persistance ( can be turned off) I noticed this in the Polish demo, Not sure how I feel about that - wondering if it's to hide something in zero-persistence mode.
Envelope acquisition mode - think I'll have to see it to understand if useful
Adjustable hysteresis on trigger input
"set to trace" for manual cursors - sets cursors to one cycle/ peak-peak of current trace
Adjustable front-panel LED brightness
Obvious omissions :
No Nth-edge burst or runt pulse trigger
No integration/difference maths function
No event search ( never used it myself but I can see how could be useful)
No foreign language help, only menus etc. ( expect that may get done at some point)
Is it possible that any of the "omissions" would be available at a future date?
- Firmware upgrade?
- New Option?
Guys. This is Evan Cirelli from Tequipment. Thanks for all the business!
Here is the real run down on these units. As you guys know demand is very high.
In all of the USA this is a very limited number of units being sold at the special price. We have all but 26 units sold. I expect these to be sold within a few days.
http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/)
These units will be shipping in 4-5 weeks. This is a limited time special. At this time I am told when we are sold out this special will be over.
Again thanks for the business!
Cheers
Evan Cirelli
Vice President and Co Founder
TEquipment.NET
Of course they could add all sorts of new features if the wanted, though they won't want to compete with their higher end models.
Guys. This is Evan Cirelli from Tequipment. Thanks for all the business!
Here is the real run down on these units. As you guys know demand is very high.
In all of the USA this is a very limited number of units being sold at the special price. We have all but 26 units sold. I expect these to be sold within a few days.
http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/)
These units will be shipping in 4-5 weeks. This is a limited time special. At this time I am told when we are sold out this special will be over.
Again thanks for the business!
Cheers
Evan Cirelli
Vice President and Co Founder
TEquipment.NET
This has set a precident for the price and that will be all the market will be prepared to pay from now on.
all but 26 of the whole allocation or just your part of it ?
In all of the USA this is a very limited number of units being sold at the special price. We have all but 26 units sold. I expect these to be sold within a few days.
I don't believe that. Scopes have been high priced all this time. You can get a rigol for 400 but, while it's insanely popular, it's not the only scope people buy. This isn't that much different than keysight giving away alot of scopes, except R&S still make money since most of the options are just software codes.
In terms of actual hardware manufacturing cost, I highly doubt they'd be selling anything at a loss ( that may even be illegal in some jurisdictions) , but they will be relying heavily on sales of higher models & options to recoup development cost, and quite a bit of that cost (particularly software, maybe also the 10 bit ADC) will be shared (maybe already recouped) over different product ranges.
You know, I often wonder about that. Do they lose money on their base 70MHz models, and they expecting most people upgrade to at least a break even level, or are the base models profitable, and every license key you buy above that is just pure profit gravy?
While those are standard on the 3000T, they were the advanced maths "option" for the 3000X. So its been done before!Of course they could add all sorts of new features if the wanted, though they won't want to compete with their higher end models.
Maybe an opportunity here for R&S to make a few $$ on this likely loss-leader intro promo, an "advanced math" software package for another $540, the pricing of their other software packages. I would buy it if the package contained the majority of the math functions the Keysight 3000 series offers, attached. Especially if it added the markers to the FFT peaks!
Just how many scopes at the various levels are sold worldwide each year - anyone know ?
I'd preffer implementation of lua for own processing alghorithm implementation.
Live data streaming ie. pure AD output for external live procesing will be nice too.
and testequity notes: "Temporarily Sold Out. Delivery for all new orders in 30 days. Place your order before supplies run out completely!"
I ordered mine 2 days ago, almost immediately, from testequity and they told me 6+ weeks today. If they aren't actually sold out already I'd be surprised.
it says: "Audible noise | maximum sound pressure level at a distance of 1.0 m | 28.3 dB(A)"
anybody has an idea how loud this is? from google it looks pretty silent, but actually I have no real feeling for how
So... if it can already "livestream" the screen and send control data back over the ethernet link, seems like just a half-step away from creating some programming API's for the scope to allow some (near) real-time waveform processing to happen on the PC.
This is quieter than my electric wall clock.
At work occasionally get to play with the very high ten Tek scopes in our product development and testing department... and had a good old CRO-scope when I was younger. Haven't had one in more than a decade, but was in the market... was following along ScopeMonth... and was weighing that and the Rigol... but saw the general specs, and based on what I want to do with it was sold. Only thing I haven't seen really visible so far on the videos is what its persistence looks like beyond the 50ms thing, if any. But more interested in some ham radio uses, as well as some moderate speed analouge circuits and micro-controllers.
I guess I do have some worry about the scopes processing power. Maybe it is just everything I've seen has had the 50ms persistence, but it seems like the displayed waveform update rate is really slow to me. I'm sure its just the nature of the videos that have so-far been released. And I would like to see a bit more on the math functions, but I don't have a pressing need for them at present.
I ordered about 2 days ago as well... but I haven't gotten a date from TestEQ.. just a sales order acknowledgement and a typical "this is what else we do" type account email thing (new sales lead stuff). Really hate being parted with my money for 6 weeks from purchase to at-my-door when talking that sum of money... but I'm not in a super hurry. Just was expecting near-instant ship due to it basically say "the distributors are stocked" on one of the product release things. I guess they had higher demand than anticipated.
it says: "Audible noise | maximum sound pressure level at a distance of 1.0 m | 28.3 dB(A)"
anybody has an idea how loud this is? from google it looks pretty silent, but actually I have no real feeling for how
28.3 dB(A) is reasonably quiet. Does depend on where and how that measurement is taken (is it inline with the fan port, etc). The "silent" pc fans are in the low 20s. A typical home during the day would be in the upper 40s low 50s typically. Anything under about 6 dB(A) from the room environment is going to be very hard to hear (unless it has a very distinct tone). I suspect it has a fan in it, its pretty hard to keep high-speed chips cool passively. And its well within the range of a typical case fan. If it was passively cooled it would likely be sub 20 dB(A) (getting down into psu coil whine, clock noise, etc). I know its a design thing, but wish more test-gear manufactures could follow what has happened in the home PC market, and go for nothing smaller than 120mm.. 140mm where possible. There are a couple of pieces at work that have effectively 40mm server fans that scream along at 60-70 dB(A). Bigger fans can pump more cfm at lower rpm.
I'd preffer implementation of lua for own processing alghorithm implementation.
I've always been rather skeptical about these expensive market reports, more so the ones that try to make future projections ( sometimes to 3 significant figures) - only the manufacturers really know, and there is no way to know how good the data is. My guess is they're full of marketing waffle for Marketing Suits. Maybe I'm just being too cynical - would love to see one.Just how many scopes at the various levels are sold worldwide each year - anyone know ?
It looks like it will cost you more than a new RTB2004 to find out: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html)
I don't believe that. Scopes have been high priced all this time. You can get a rigol for 400 but, while it's insanely popular, it's not the only scope people buy. This isn't that much different than keysight giving away alot of scopes, except R&S still make money since most of the options are just software codes.
You know, I often wonder about that. Do they lose money on their base 70MHz models, and they expecting most people upgrade to at least a break even level, or are the base models profitable, and every license key you buy above that is just pure profit gravy?
I'd bet that more bandwidth upgrade options get given away as promotions or deal sweetners than get sold. Especially the minimal change from 70 to 100. If it was 70 to 150 or 200, maybe more would sell.I don't believe that. Scopes have been high priced all this time. You can get a rigol for 400 but, while it's insanely popular, it's not the only scope people buy. This isn't that much different than keysight giving away alot of scopes, except R&S still make money since most of the options are just software codes.
You know, I often wonder about that. Do they lose money on their base 70MHz models, and they expecting most people upgrade to at least a break even level, or are the base models profitable, and every license key you buy above that is just pure profit gravy?
I've been told that hardly anyone buys the 70MHz to 100MHz upgrade, and you'd expect that, it's bugger-all.
They would not be selling at a loss, bet your bottom dollar.
I agree about the dodgy figures in most of these expensive reports. You can find historic figures for some classic scopes on the web, and I've no reason to doubt their validity. Things like the HP1740A and Tek 465 seemed to sell a few 10s of k over a fairly long (maybe 10 year) production life in the 70s and 80s. I think that leads to 2 questions - How would that scale to sales of 6-12 month salary scopes today? How would that scale to sales of 100MHz scopes today?I've always been rather skeptical about these expensive market reports, more so the ones that try to make future projections ( sometimes to 3 significant figures) - only the manufacturers really know, and there is no way to know how good the data is. My guess is they're full of marketing waffle for Marketing Suits. Maybe I'm just being too cynical - would love to see one.Just how many scopes at the various levels are sold worldwide each year - anyone know ?
It looks like it will cost you more than a new RTB2004 to find out: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html)
Just how many scopes at the various levels are sold worldwide each year - anyone know ?Look at Rigol DS1054Z stock levels at Tequipment for example. Around Christmas they had over 2000 units in stock after they had sold loads of the and currently they have over 1300 units left. I think they sell at least somewhere between 1000 and 2000 units each year. After all a DMM and an oscilloscope are the bare essential tools if you want to do something with electronics.
This is quieter than my electric wall clock.
That's that cleared up, then. :-DD
I've been trying to snag one in Canada.
I have yet to hear back from Test Force.
Hopefully Monday.
I called them directly by phone to place my order. It was placed with the local office here in Ottawa.
I'd preffer implementation of lua for own processing alghorithm implementation.
Why Lua? JavaScript is much more widely known, and there is V8. Quick Google results:
https://realmensch.org/2016/05/28/goodbye-lua/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_(JavaScript_engine)
For web-developer moving into Arduino is a breeze because it's almost like JavaScript.
Think JavaScript-like processing will reach wider audience.
Regarding MATLAB and accessing real time data, I found this video on the R&S website:This document also provides some info.
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/videos_5/application_5/RTB2000_USB_live_file_and_setup_access_720p_HQ.mp4
Regarding MATLAB and accessing real time data, I found this video on the R&S website:This document also provides some info.
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/videos_5/application_5/RTB2000_USB_live_file_and_setup_access_720p_HQ.mp4
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Import_ac_en_3607-0446-92_v0100.pdf
QuoteI called them directly by phone to place my order. It was placed with the local office here in Ottawa.
Hi irakandjii, I live in Ottawa also.
If I may ask, what did they charge you in Canadian funds?
Regards,
Stuart
It was the standard 1.37 exchange rate times the $2080.00 US price. The exchange rate sux.
They are clearly targetting the DSOX2000, as the feature set is basically a straight copy, and they're hoping to differentiate with the touchscreen/UI, 10 bit ADC and I/O features.
The main maths function I'd like to see is integration, as this can be useful for measuring current draw of devices that vary a lot in different modes.
There is still a huge disconnect with the FOSS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open-source_software) and the electronics hardware and test equipment sectors. FOSS isn't perfect, and it's not for everyone. But it's exactly the markets like hobbyists, semi-professionals, enthusiasts which have benefitted and contributed the most to projects in this sector. And it's exactly the same people who would stand to benefit here.
Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions: "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of. Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision. I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.
I would like to understand the sweep capabilities for example:
a) the types of sweep available linear, log? etc.
b) constraints if any on selectable freq. ranges for the sweep (begin freq. - end freq.)
c) constraints if any on the sweep time. (lower limit < elapsed sweep time < upper limit)
Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
Hopefully this is a glitch pending it being in stock.
http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
It's available in Australia as well but no where near the 2K USD deal :(
http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
The current math capability is the basic math functions described. Having said that, I really appreciate getting additional feedback and will absolutely pass this on to the design team Germany. No promises that it will be implemented, but the more feedback we hear the more likely something is to happen, so please don't hesitate to keep passing it on.Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions: "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of. Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision. I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.
The brochure states that the HMO1202 is in a different math classification "Basic / (math on math)" vs the RTB2004 which is "elementary". I don't understand the reasoning but it seems that is the way it is. I too wonder if it is a technical limitation or a marketing choice? And if the latter, might there be a future option?
Perhaps R&S Rich has some insight?
Question to Rich from R&S on the R&S®RTB-B6 option - Signal GeneratorHere's a quick overview:
I watched the video from Watt Circuit at the beginning of this thread and saw the function generator has sweep capability plus some other functions. I have been unable to find details in the manual or online for this option. I can find specification sheet only.
Is there an available source you could point me to please?
I would like to understand the sweep capabilities for example:
a) the types of sweep available linear, log? etc.
b) constraints if any on selectable freq. ranges for the sweep (begin freq. - end freq.)
c) constraints if any on the sweep time. (lower limit < elapsed sweep time < upper limit)
I would also like to understand better the abilities of the Pattern generator to generate arbitrary patterns (programmable sequences?)
Thanks in advance
The current math capability is the basic math functions described. Having said that, I really appreciate getting additional feedback and will absolutely pass this on to the design team Germany. No promises that it will be implemented, but the more feedback we hear the more likely something is to happen, so please don't hesitate to keep passing it on.Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions: "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of. Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision. I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.
The brochure states that the HMO1202 is in a different math classification "Basic / (math on math)" vs the RTB2004 which is "elementary". I don't understand the reasoning but it seems that is the way it is. I too wonder if it is a technical limitation or a marketing choice? And if the latter, might there be a future option?
Perhaps R&S Rich has some insight?
-Rich
The current math capability is the basic math functions described. Having said that, I really appreciate getting additional feedback and will absolutely pass this on to the design team Germany. No promises that it will be implemented, but the more feedback we hear the more likely something is to happen, so please don't hesitate to keep passing it on.Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions: "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of. Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision. I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.
The brochure states that the HMO1202 is in a different math classification "Basic / (math on math)" vs the RTB2004 which is "elementary". I don't understand the reasoning but it seems that is the way it is. I too wonder if it is a technical limitation or a marketing choice? And if the latter, might there be a future option?
Perhaps R&S Rich has some insight?
-Rich
Yup, that's a bummer. I have a DS1000Z and while the new RTB2000 is superior in many ways, I know I will miss the more advanced math.
The Rigol has more operations ( addition (A+B), subtraction (A-B), multiplication (AxB), division (A/B), FFT, A&&B, A||B, A^B, !A, Intg, Diff, Sqrt, Lg, Ln, Exp and Abs, low/high/band pass filtering.) according to the manual and can also cascade operations once with one intermediate variable (so you can do Ch1+Ch2+Ch3) - they call this "Fx operation". While I see how arbitrary formulas could be considered a differentiation feature for higher scope, basic maths as in the Rigol (more operation and basic cascading) are par for the course these days (even if the Keysight 2k don't do them either...).
I personally have used the cascading, intg, diff and will miss them if they are not in the RTB2000 (which they clearly are not right now).
It looks like there is also a deficit in triggering types (I haven't looked closely). Things like N-th edge or setup/hold are useful.
DS1000Z manual below for reference ;)
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-050a/1/-/-/-/-/MSO1000Z%26DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-050a/1/-/-/-/-/MSO1000Z%26DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf)
DS1000Z ... Diff
Has someone experience with buying the special edition RTB 2004 at tequipment in combination with "Shipito".(Im from Europe :palm:)From a friend in the UK : Testequity would not ship to an address they knew was a forwarder, ditto Newark.
(Keithley DMM7510 comes to mind in crazy fan location design).
I think, if R&S did use a similiar cooler design as in the HMO1232 (there is a review from Dave), then it would be much quieter than my DMM 7510.
And for me this is acceptable.
Does anybody know what kind of logic probe is suitable for RTB2004 ?Why would you assume it wouldn't be included? It's sold as a MSO.
I assume there is no one in promo package (only software option is enabled)
and this is not just a straight 250MHz wires ... :-)
Why would you assume it wouldn't be included? It's sold as a MSO.
On the RTO, the probe has the comparators and LVDS drivers to send a differential signal over the ribbon.
I've found that some other source say 4 Analog probes so I hope (1) does not mean one piece of ... in this case. But I can't found pictures/spec etc. what does RTB-B1 include. I've spoke to one of the distributors and he was very uncetrain about those logic probe. I feelt that he do not want to say for potential buyer that there is none.
Incoming!
Let me know any specific questions. At show today so can't play til later.
Incoming!Why does that mirror have knobs on the side?
Let me know any specific questions. At show today so can't play til later.
Incoming!
Let me know any specific questions. At show today so can't play til later.
Does the UI work smothly, and does the display, typically, update at a decent rate? How are the decoding functions?
On the other hand KS might release the successor of the DSOX2K earlier than before to compete against the RTB ?
http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm)It is interesting that this website lists Hameg MSO probes as an acessoiry. I think there is more Hameg under the hood than R&S. I hope this scope has the BNCs bolted to the front and the PCB properly fixed to the chassis unlike the cheaply built Hameg scopes.
EUR 1900.-- + VAT
edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
:palm:
Well it looks like this one isn't going to happen. >:( The story at Tequipment has changed. On Friday I was told the unit had been shipped by the R&S warehouse and they would get it in 2 day to reship to me. I had placed the order at 5AM the morning of the announcement. Now they are telling me May 3, maybe. >:(
Does the UI work smothly, and does the display, typically, update at a decent rate? How are the decoding functions?
Given that R&S are the only company to ever approach me to have hack material removed from the website,
(BTW, they never did get back to me on exact which posts violated their copyright...)
A "true game changer" would be to simply make good scopes, with no ransom payments to enable crippled hardware features.
Don't forget as a buyer you are also paying for the counterproductive development of the security features and obfuscation they had to build into the machine to protect their precious cripple-ware tricks.
I hope this scope has the BNCs bolted to the front and the PCB properly fixed to the chassis unlike the cheaply built Hameg scopes.
Let's see if they do a promotion with free decode options as they have done in the past. 800 bucks for UART, I2C and SPI is insane.
Noticed on the TestEquity site "Temporarily Sold Out. Delivery for all new orders is 30 days. Approximately 11 left for new orders as of 3/20 - Place your order before supplies run out completely!"
Still unclear if all scope sold are "new orders" and "delivery for all new orders is 30 days" or if at some point in the past was okay and that new orders now (for the 11 additional .... allocated?... scopes) is 30 days. Either way, my "expected date" is 0000-00-00 .
I asked R&S UK about the MSO and the person I spoke with was under the impression the digital probes are not included. I would try and clarify this because it is an expensive addition.
Quick first impression - some UI aspects are fractionally more sluggish than you might like, e.g. rotary but probably not enough to be annoying. Probably the most annoying thing so far is the position and general entry knobs are detented.
UART Decode looks reasonably good, though datasheet says UART to 32Mbaud but it seems to stop at 3Mbaud. I have queried this as IMO 3M is too low.
I've also had the touchscreen completely stop working on one occasion, needing a power cycle to restore.
It all seems pretty clear -- the distributors had a few units they could ship quickly, and all remaining orders will come from the next shipment. The 11 number is how many units TestEquity have left to sell from their promo allocation, and has no relationship to the timing of shipments. Probably that number will fluctuate, I'm sure a few people will end up cancelling their orders.
Mike got a demo unit in the UK, so that has no connection at all with sale units in the US.
It all seems pretty clear -- the distributors had a few units they could ship quickly, and all remaining orders will come from the next shipment. The 11 number is how many units TestEquity have left to sell from their promo allocation, and has no relationship to the timing of shipments. Probably that number will fluctuate, I'm sure a few people will end up cancelling their orders.
Mike got a demo unit in the UK, so that has no connection at all with sale units in the US.
5-6 weeks of delivery ( 05'17) ? They probably are sitting now 24/7 and glueings parts together to meet orders. Does anybody know where scopes are assemblied ? Hopefully not in China . In the other way, if there were some late software updates it should be delivered in the second wave ...
No indication of manufacture location on unit or packagingIt all seems pretty clear -- the distributors had a few units they could ship quickly, and all remaining orders will come from the next shipment. The 11 number is how many units TestEquity have left to sell from their promo allocation, and has no relationship to the timing of shipments. Probably that number will fluctuate, I'm sure a few people will end up cancelling their orders.
Mike got a demo unit in the UK, so that has no connection at all with sale units in the US.
5-6 weeks of delivery ( 05'17) ? They probably are sitting now 24/7 and glueings parts together to meet orders. Does anybody know where scopes are assemblied ? Hopefully not in China . In the other way, if there were some late software updates it should be delivered in the second wave ...
They're probably manufactured at the former Hameg factory in the Czech Republic.
The remote web access is awesome - it's pretty much like having the scope in front of you.
Even worked pretty well via my phone/wifi, though screen size makes the UI knobs less useable
Mike, how would you say it holds up against the MSOX3000A series? I know its target is the 2000 series but am curious as it looks a nice piece of kit.Major pros and cons both ways. Will go into more detail later, definitely no clear winner, and will depend a lot on what you need.
For clarity: the PSU is an off-the-shelve part?Yes.
Mike, how would you say it holds up against the MSOX3000A series? I know its target is the 2000 series but am curious as it looks a nice piece of kit.
Mike, how would you say it holds up against the MSOX3000A series? I know its target is the 2000 series but am curious as it looks a nice piece of kit.
3000A can be upgraded to 1G.,.. 2000 only to 200Mhz.. it seems to me it sits inbtween a 2000 and 3000?
How is it for low level sensitivity and triggering, say with a 20Hz, 500µV sine wave?Pretty good - there is a few mV offset on trigger level. Self-cal reduces this a bit but not entirely.
At 1mv/div with the input unconnected there's about half a div worst-case noise, in peak-det mode at max waveform intensity, right up to 300MHz.
That seems pretty noisy. Does the noise get less at less sensitive input settings? Or put differently: does the noise come from the frontend or the ADCs?The front-end - at lower sensitivities it's pretty much a flat line.
Confirmed that there definitely won't be a launch bundle for UK.
Also confirmed that warranty support is worldwide so no issues for imported units
Must be great to be in that situation :)
Must be great to be in that situation :)
Basically had the same experience with R&S folks here. If you're not able to wave big bundles of money, they're yawning. Even items from their used store, forget it if you're trying to haggle.
They're of course very friendly people still - must be company policy or something.
I had a whole different experience when talking to Keysight's people.
In comparison to the older HMO line I am not sure if the tripple 10 makes such a big difference. I can't wait to see the upcoming videos from Watt Circuit, Mike and Dave. :popcorn:
The optional features are way too expensive in my opinion. Two examples from my configuration wishlist:
>> 2 Channel MSO <<
> HMO1212 (1195,-€) scope 2CH;100MHz;10kWfm/s
> simple waveform generator SIN;SQR;PLS;SAW;TRI;DC;<50kHz
+ HO3508 (308,-€) logic probe 8CH;1GS
+ HOO10 (298,-€) serial decoding I2C;SPI;UART;RS232
= 1801,- Euro + VAT
--
> RTB2002 (1250,-€) scope 2CH;70MHz;50kWfm/s
+ RTB-B221 (275,-€) bandwidth upgrade 100MHz
+ RTB-K1 (480,-) serial decoding I2C;SPI
+ RTB-K2 (480,-) serial decoding UART;RS232
+ RTB-B1 (700,-) mixed signal option 16CH;1.25GS
+ RTB-B6 (700,-) arbitrary waveform generator <50MBit/s
= 3885,- Euro + VAT
--
>> 4 Channel MSO <<
> HMO1024(1965,-)
> no waveform generator
+ HO3508 (308,-€) logic probe 8CH;1GS
+ HOO10 (298,-€) serial decoding I2C;SPI;UART;RS232
= 2571,- Euro + VAT
--
> RTB2004 (1900,-€) scope 4CH;70MHz;50kWfm/s
+ RTB-B241 (225,-€) bandwidth upgrade 100MHz
+ RTB-K1 (480,-) serial decoding I2C;SPI
+ RTB-K2 (480,-) serial decoding UART;RS232
+ RTB-B1 (700,-) mixed signal option 16CH;1.25GS
= 3785,- Euro + VAT
Source: Price and options: http://shop.rohde-schwarz.com/de/r-srrtb2004bu.html (http://shop.rohde-schwarz.com/de/r-srrtb2004bu.html)
In comparison to the older HMO line I am not sure if the tripple 10 makes such a big difference. I can't wait to see the upcoming videos from Watt Circuit, Mike and Dave. :popcorn:
The optional features are way too expensive in my opinion. Two examples from my configuration wishlist:
...
In the US they sell the RTB-PK1.02 Application Bundle for $1260 which includes all serial options + segmented memory + wavegen. If this is also available in Europe, it would make some of your configurations significantly cheaper.
In comparison to the older HMO line I am not sure if the tripple 10 makes such a big difference. I can't wait to see the upcoming videos from Watt Circuit, Mike and Dave. :popcorn:
The optional features are way too expensive in my opinion. Two examples from my configuration wishlist:
...
In the US they sell the RTB-PK1.02 Application Bundle for $1260 which includes all serial options + segmented memory + wavegen. If this is also available in Europe, it would make some of your configurations significantly cheaper.
I can't find any bundles available here in Europe. Maybe only for big customers. :rant:
And if I understand it right TestEquity or other US suppliers do not want or can not sell this special offer to Europe. :(
In comparison to the older HMO line I am not sure if the tripple 10 makes such a big difference. I can't wait to see the upcoming videos from Watt Circuit, Mike and Dave. :popcorn:
The optional features are way too expensive in my opinion. Two examples from my configuration wishlist:
...
In the US they sell the RTB-PK1.02 Application Bundle for $1260 which includes all serial options + segmented memory + wavegen. If this is also available in Europe, it would make some of your configurations significantly cheaper.
I can't find any bundles available here in Europe. Maybe only for big customers. :rant:
And if I understand it right TestEquity or other US suppliers do not want or can not sell this special offer to Europe. :(
Looks like at least Farnell Germany might have the app bundle available soon?
http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-pk1/software-bundle-oszilloskope/dp/2723131?ost=RTB-PK1.02&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=Alle&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-pk1/software-bundle-oszilloskope/dp/2723131?ost=RTB-PK1.02&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=Alle&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
Must be great to be in that situation :)
Basically had the same experience with R&S folks here. If you're not able to wave big bundles of money, they're yawning. Even items from their used store, forget it if you're trying to haggle.
They're of course very friendly people still - must be company policy or something.
I had a whole different experience when talking to Keysight's people.
I think it is a company policy - had same polite but dismissive and non-interested attitude when I dealt with their HQ when I was in the UAE.
Last time I asked for a quote on the ScopeRider in the UK - when I told the sales guy the quoted SRP was too much for my current budget - he never even bothered to reply to that email.
The TestEquity web site shows a similar message:
"Delivery for all new orders is 30 days. Only 3 left for new orders as of 3/21 - Place your order before supplies run out completely!"
Thanks for the teardown Mike. One thing I noticed is: No flash memory? Must be in the FPGA then?No, it will be one of the BGAs. I didn't look up all the numbers
Looks like promo's are sold out! Just tried to purchase from TestForce (Canada). Got a quote on Monday, placed the order Tuesday, was told today that they've told by R&S there are no more promo's to sell.Aiui it was a global (!) Allocation of 200. I'm not aware of any other units out there apart from the 3 or so seen on Youtube.
Less than 2 weeks and that's it!? Come on R&S. I've never purchased R&S before, nor will I now. Pretty shady.
Anybody else getting knocked down when they try to order?
FYI: This in no way reflects on my positive opinion about TestForce. Ty was very helpful, responsive and apologetic when he learned of this treason on R&S's part.
Looks like promo's are sold out! Just tried to purchase from TestForce (Canada). Got a quote on Monday, placed the order Tuesday, was told today that they've told by R&S there are no more promo's to sell.
Anybody else getting knocked down when they try to order?
Looks like promo's are sold out! Just tried to purchase from TestForce (Canada). Got a quote on Monday, placed the order Tuesday, was told today that they've told by R&S there are no more promo's to sell.
Less than 2 weeks and that's it!? Come on R&S. I've never purchased R&S before, nor will I now. Pretty shady.
Anybody else getting knocked down when they try to order?
FYI: This in no way reflects on my positive opinion about TestForce. Ty was very helpful, responsive and apologetic when he learned of this treason on R&S's part.
Mike,Not looked at gen at all yet -if there is anything it will be on website.
Does the kit include some PC software for arbitrary generator signal preparation ?
Not looked at gen at all yet -if there is anything it will be on website.Great. Thank you for your work. If you be so kind and check in a spare time what is exact XY screen size
Watching your vid Mike, one comment/question.
Is the trace color scheme user configurable ?
I ask as it seems not the usual trace color scheme
I just looked at the teardown and it is build like the Hamegs: cheap. The PCB isn't well supported (to make things worse also parallel with the base) and the BNCs aren't bolted to the chassis. :palm: For a scope which is moved around (maybe dropped) these are very weak points.I really don't see an issue - there is a lot of solder, and the PCB appears to be edge plated, so the solder contacts on 3 sides of the PCB, and the PCB is screwed to the chassis close to every connector.
Usual for me is Y, P, B, G .....yet an old 2 ch Tek DSO I have is Y, B. :-//Watching your vid Mike, one comment/question.
Is the trace color scheme user configurable ?
No, apart from the rainbow modes. They are different to the more standard colour set, maybe to better match what the RGB LEDs can render. Something that struck me just as I was going out tonight is that I'm not sure how good a fit the probe colour sleeves are to the screen colours - will check tomorrow.QuoteI ask as it seems not the usual trace color scheme
Define "usual"... I'm used to yellow,green,blue,pink. for 1-4. Blue (at least the shade on Agilent/Keysight) sucks as it's a bit too dim.
I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube. I have enormous respect for R&S and Hameg (have some equipment from them) but would never buy something completely blindly based on few 60 second video clips and incomplete spec sheet. And again not a question of doubting that Hameg (R&S) are able to make great stuff, it's just that scope (and any other complicated piece of equipment) is so much about personal preferences, how some functions are implemented and such.. That is why you have people that swear by certain brands...If it was a Chinese company, or someone unknown ( or maybe Tektronix ;) ) , I'd totally agree that it would be a gamble . However with the bigger players you have brand reputation that give a decent level of confidence that it will be a good product. You know you're getting a 4ch 300MHz MSO with arbgen and decodes, 3 year warranty and a worldwide support network - is there even any option from anyone that gives you that (without hacking) for $2K?
And here people are sing praises to a scope nobody owns yet, and will receive in 45 days when they become available...
Nothing wrong with all of that just an observation...
I've seen various pieces of equipment which have had an accident. Equipment with the BNCs bolted to the chassis only have damage to the BNCs. However when the BNCs are held by solder they just shear off the board and I really don't want to think what happens to a BGA on that board.I just looked at the teardown and it is build like the Hamegs: cheap. The PCB isn't well supported (to make things worse also parallel with the base) and the BNCs aren't bolted to the chassis. :palm: For a scope which is moved around (maybe dropped) these are very weak points.I really don't see an issue - there is a lot of solder, and the PCB appears to be edge plated, so the solder contacts on 3 sides of the PCB, and the PCB is screwed to the chassis close to every connector.
I think you'd have to try pretty hard to break them.
You know you're getting a 4ch 300MHz MSO with arbgen and decodes, 3 year warranty and a worldwide support network - is there even any option from anyone that gives you that (without hacking) for $2K?If you can live with 200MHz there is an alternative for the same price and available worldwide. Some pros and cons ofcourse but all in all pretty much in the same ballpark.
I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube. I have enormous respect for R&S and Hameg (have some equipment from them) but would never buy something completely blindly based on few 60 second video clips and incomplete spec sheet. And again not a question of doubting that Hameg (R&S) are able to make great stuff, it's just that scope (and any other complicated piece of equipment) is so much about personal preferences, how some functions are implemented and such.. That is why you have people that swear by certain brands...
And here people are sing praises to a scope nobody owns yet, and will receive in 45 days when they become available...
Nothing wrong with all of that just an observation...
I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube. I have enormous respect for R&S and Hameg (have some equipment from them) but would never buy something completely blindly based on few 60 second video clips and incomplete spec sheet. And again not a question of doubting that Hameg (R&S) are able to make great stuff, it's just that scope (and any other complicated piece of equipment) is so much about personal preferences, how some functions are implemented and such.. That is why you have people that swear by certain brands...If it was a Chinese company, or someone unknown ( or maybe Tektronix ;) ) , I'd totally agree that it would be a gamble . However with the bigger players you have brand reputation that give a decent level of confidence that it will be a good product. You know you're getting a 4ch 300MHz MSO with arbgen and decodes, 3 year warranty and a worldwide support network - is there even any option from anyone that gives you that (without hacking) for $2K?
And here people are sing praises to a scope nobody owns yet, and will receive in 45 days when they become available...
Nothing wrong with all of that just an observation...
Remember why they are doing the promo - to get kit out there for visibility and word of mouth, not to clear out crappy old stock that didn't sell
They wouldn't do that if they didn't think it would stand up.
Whether it's worth the normal list price is another question of course.
I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube.
I bought one, and know it is a gamble, ...I don't even think it's much of a gamble. Even if you hated it, I bet you could turn around and sell it for more than you paid. Especially if you offered shipping to Europe. :)
I bought the soft case for it, RTB-Z3, just from the part number listings without being able to find a photo anywhere. Just did some more Googling and finally found a picture:E75 seems a lot for a plastic cover - pretty sure Keysight include a hard front cover - My 3000 came with one - not sure if the 2000 does.
http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm)
Looks a little more "floppy" than the Rigol case for my 2000 series. Velco closure too instead of snaps of some kind. Should do the job though for normal amounts of transport.
R&S also lists a front cover, RTB-Z1. Didn't get that one, but here is a picture from the same distributor's site:
http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z1-Oszilloskop-Frontabdeckung.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z1-Oszilloskop-Frontabdeckung.htm)
E75 seems a lot for a plastic cover - pretty sure Keysight include a hard front cover - My 3000 came with one - not sure if the 2000 does.
I bought the soft case for it, RTB-Z3, just from the part number listings without being able to find a photo anywhere. Just did some more Googling and finally found a picture:
http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm)
Looks a little more "floppy" than the Rigol case for my 2000 series. Velco closure too instead of snaps of some kind. Should do the job though for normal amounts of transport.
E75 seems a lot for a plastic cover - pretty sure Keysight include a hard front cover - My 3000 came with one - not sure if the 2000 does.
As for the notion that this introduction price sets a new "retail price" going forward. It does not...
The beginning of this video starts with the RTB2004 being removed from the soft case. Just a quick shot, not a real good look at it.
I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube.
As for the notion that this introduction price sets a new "retail price" going forward. It does not...
I don't know. It may be their intent to go back to the original MSRP but I'm not sure that will hold for long. They have set an expected price for this scope now and rational or not, price sensitive consumers are not going to be willing to now spend 3x as much for the same scope anytime soon. At least those in the "prosumer"/hobbiest/professional home use category who are aware of this scopes introduction and this introductory price. It may be a nice scope but from what I've read so far I see no reason to believe the full featured version will be able to out-compete other $5-6K scopes.
I believe there's a concept in economics that says once a lower price is established - it's difficult to significantly raise prices again. Sure, they will be able to sell scopes at the original MSRP - but how many? How much market penetration will they see? Especially with other scope makers ramping up their offerings.
This is kind of the opposite of UPOD (under promise, over deliver). There's gonna be a lot of people out there very unenthusiastic about paying 3x more for this scope with those included features or buying a bare bones scope for the same price as what a full featured one was temporarily available for.
We'll have to see how this plays out. I think it might be a year or two before we know the answer as to what price the market will bear for this scope.
Unless you think everybody is going to adjust their pricing because of another manufacturers 200 unit promotion, I don't see the reason for the baseless speculation that they'll never be able to sell them now.
Does anyone know if you can use this scope with a USB mouse ? Might save the screen from getting grubby and I am much more productive with a mouse than a touch screen.
Regarding the glossy touchscreen, I guess it should be possible to add one of those 'protective screen' for tablets, that have matte finish and leave less fingerprint traces.Considering how roughly handled most lab equipment can be, the impact protective qualities of a glass screen protector might be very useful. :)
Does anyone know who makes the BNC connectors in these R&S scope? Surface mount connectors, accessible to the user, are usually a mechanical disaster, but this slotting arrangement looks like it might actually be robust.Not exactly like those in the scope, but also very robust, if not better (hold the board on both sides): http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/amphenol-rf-division/034-5013/ARF2104-ND/3995564 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/amphenol-rf-division/034-5013/ARF2104-ND/3995564)
Only thing that bothers me is the release. It seems obvious that R&S had some sort of issue close to release. They didn't get scopes in the hands of a few reviewers on-time, and it seems that they didn't have any production units actually ready to go (i've still seen/heard no actual production scopes in anyone's hands... btw Mike, is yours beta firmware too like the many other screen shots I've seen?), even though their marketing materials said they did. I do understand, though, they "had" to get to market this month, because of all the other competition. And as much as I "want it right now", if they did find an issue that they can fix and make it better before its in my hands, awesome (as long as we're not talking months from now).
Seems Farnell UK are now offering a "deal". They offered me the promo bundle for £3175+VAT. Not quite the same bargain the US got. I wont be buying it.Friend of mine just received the same offer. Nowhere near the US deal, but as the latter appears to have finished, still not a bad deal.
Are you referring to the GW Instek MSO 2204 EA ?You know you're getting a 4ch 300MHz MSO with arbgen and decodes, 3 year warranty and a worldwide support network - is there even any option from anyone that gives you that (without hacking) for $2K?If you can live with 200MHz there is an alternative for the same price and available worldwide. Some pros and cons ofcourse but all in all pretty much in the same ballpark.
I got similar offer from another vendor for 3,595 Euro + VAT. But the lead time was 3 - 8 weeks.Seems Farnell UK are now offering a "deal". They offered me the promo bundle for £3175+VAT. Not quite the same bargain the US got. I wont be buying it.Friend of mine just received the same offer. Nowhere near the US deal, but as the latter appears to have finished, still not a bad deal.
I'm told they have about 12 units available.
In deed. in these days of the global market.. the old techniques just dont' cut it any longer. I'm NOT goign to pay a 50% premium just becuase i am in New Zealand. End of story.
And if you set the price with a promostion you better be ready to sell it again at that price, cause you've just set the expectation. and you know whwat.. I have plenty of choices now of what i'll buy.. theres plenty of good scopes that will do the job for me.
Just curious, it would be disappointing if there is no runt trigger.
Just curious, it would be disappointing if there is no runt trigger.
Without wishing to derail the thread (too much), I'm curious as to how often practically speaking these days you would actually use a runt trigger?
Back in the days of shared parallel busses, had I had a scope with runt trigger capability that would certainly have been of use, but nowadays, not so much unless you're into DDR, although I'm not sure how much use a 300MHz scope is for DDR nowadays!
Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series.
U-Boot SPL 2013.01.01 (Oct 06 2016 - 16:39:22)
BOARD : Altera SOCFPGA Cyclone V Board
CLOCK: EOSC1 clock 50000 KHz
CLOCK: EOSC2 clock 50000 KHz
CLOCK: F2S_SDR_REF clock 0 KHz
CLOCK: F2S_PER_REF clock 0 KHz
CLOCK: MPU clock 925 MHz
CLOCK: DDR clock 400 MHz
CLOCK: UART clock 100000 KHz
CLOCK: MMC clock 62500 KHz
CLOCK: QSPI clock 3613 KHz
RESET: WARM
SDRAM: Initializing MMR registers
SDRAM: Calibrating PHY
SEQ.C: Preparing to start memory calibration
SEQ.C: CALIBRATION PASSED
SDRAM: 512 MiB
NAND: Denali NAND controller
[/quote]
Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.This ×1000. Even if other specs are superior, a laggy UI would be a complete showstopper for me. Seems like Keysight are the only one capable of putting together a 'scope with non-laggy ui. There's no reason whatsoever in 2017 why it's acceptable that scrolling a menu lags.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.
On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".
· The UI is slow and often lags.
Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.This ×1000. Even if other specs are superior, a laggy UI would be a complete showstopper for me. Seems like Keysight are the only one capable of putting together a 'scope with non-laggy ui. There's no reason whatsoever in 2017 why it's acceptable that scrolling a menu lags.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.
On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".
· The UI is slow and often lags.
Found this on Newark's site, so I called. They have a bunch on backorder.
Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.This ×1000. Even if other specs are superior, a laggy UI would be a complete showstopper for me. Seems like Keysight are the only one capable of putting together a 'scope with non-laggy ui. There's no reason whatsoever in 2017 why it's acceptable that scrolling a menu lags.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.
On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".
· The UI is slow and often lags.
Thanks Mike,
I wonder if R&S will pay a bug finder fee per bug - then you are in for a good monthly salary :) - not that any of the bugs was really serious. Which firmware version is yours?
but thanks again
People seem to forget that adding a capacitive touch screen to their products evokes a slew of expectations from potential users. When operating a device with a touch screen I expect it to behave as responsive as a tablet - heck, even really cheap tablets manage to do non-skippy scrolling. Since a touch screen provides no haptic feedback, some instant feedback when touching something on screen is of great importance. By instant I really mean instant - the very moment the finger hits the screen. Shouldn't be that hard...
Sure, my dated Galaxy Nexus isn't instant as well, but when I touch a menu item, I usually get instant feedback that I touched it and scrolling doesn't lag. I've played with the RTB2000 and some of the keysight scopes at embedded world and the keysight scopes were way more smooth to operate.
Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.
On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".
· The UI is slow and often lags.
· Almost any reviewer showed that they needed several trys until they could move a waveform on the screen (if more than one was shown).
· It also was often visible that a press on a button (touch = on the screen) often did not work and needed a 2nd or 3rd try.
· The screen is glossy. In my case such a scope is always located above my eyes - I would see reflections all the time.
· Immediately the screen is full of smear and fingerprints
I am sure this is not a bad scope. It shows some nice ideas and I am glad it is there, as: the more competitors, the better the products and the lower the price after some time.
Now, if somebody finds out how to hack the economy 70 Mhz version (still 1900 Euro + VAT) to a fully optioned 300 Mhz version, then this will be a nice deal for many people (though still not for the Rigol DS1074Z buyers who are on a 500 Euro budget).
Watched Mike's serial decode vid. At the $2080.00 promo pricing for US/Canada(which is over) the scope seems like a bargain, at retail price it doesn't do too much for me. I do like how much thought has been put into using the LCD resolution.
Looks like at least Farnell Germany might have the app bundle available soon?
http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-pk1/software-bundle-oszilloskope/dp/2723131?ost=RTB-PK1.02&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=Alle&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-pk1/software-bundle-oszilloskope/dp/2723131?ost=RTB-PK1.02&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=Alle&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
Thank's! That looks good. But it's a software only bundle. Better than nothing.
Two days ago I asked R&S about the early adopter bundle for Europe and they are moving the question to some sales office...
The complete bundle (RTB2004 OSCILLOSCOPE 4 CHANNEL, 300MHz PROMOTIONAL PACKAGE) is for 5500,- Euro + VAT. Compare that to $ 2080+VAT in the US? >:(
http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
To: Mike
I watched your teardown and remembered your comments on the beeper. Turns out you can set the beeper to beep on trigger.
From pg. 181 of the manual, Remote Control Commands
SYSTem:BEEPer:TRIG:STATe
Enables or disables the beep if a trigger occurs.
Parameters:
<TriggerBeep> ON | OFF
I was under the impression that there is a button / menu choice for all commands, but I have no way to test my assumption. yet ^-^
Starting today they are listed by Elpav (Italian distributor):
http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm (http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm)
RTB2002 (70MHz 2Ch) euro 1.250,00
RTBM2004 (70MHz 4Ch) euro 1.900,00
RTB-221 (up 100MHz 2Ch) euro 275,00
RTB-222 (up 200MHz 2Ch) euro 895,00
RTB-223 (up 300MHz 2Ch) euro 1.700,00
RTB-241 (up 100MHz 4Ch) euro 225,00
RTB-242 (up 200MHz 4Ch) euro 745,00
RTB-243 (up 300MHz 2Ch) euro 1.750,00
RTB-B1 (up to MSO) euro 700,00
RTB-B6 (gen. arb. 25MHz) euro 700,00
No mention of decode options cost :-//
To: Mike
I watched your teardown and remembered your comments on the beeper. Turns out you can set the beeper to beep on trigger.
From pg. 181 of the manual, Remote Control Commands
SYSTem:BEEPer:TRIG:STATe
Enables or disables the beep if a trigger occurs.
Parameters:
<TriggerBeep> ON | OFF
I was under the impression that there is a button / menu choice for all commands, but I have no way to test my assumption. yet ^-^
This does work, and it is persistent across power cycles, However it's extremely quiet - if you have something next to it with a more noisy fan you can barely hear it. On the plus side you can leave it on and it won't be annoying
Haven't seen it in any menus, and don't think there is a way to enter SCPI on the scope - you can do it via the web interface.
Incidentally I just noticed that interfacing is via USB OR Ethernet, but can't have both enabled at the same time, and it's not smart enough to auto-swap to ethernet if USB is not plugged in.
I did a port scan and looks like HTTP is the only service on Ethernet.
To: Mike
I watched your teardown and remembered your comments on the beeper. Turns out you can set the beeper to beep on trigger.
From pg. 181 of the manual, Remote Control Commands
SYSTem:BEEPer:TRIG:STATe
Enables or disables the beep if a trigger occurs.
Parameters:
<TriggerBeep> ON | OFF
I was under the impression that there is a button / menu choice for all commands, but I have no way to test my assumption. yet ^-^
This does work, and it is persistent across power cycles, However it's extremely quiet - if you have something next to it with a more noisy fan you can barely hear it. On the plus side you can leave it on and it won't be annoying
Haven't seen it in any menus, and don't think there is a way to enter SCPI on the scope - you can do it via the web interface.
Incidentally I just noticed that interfacing is via USB OR Ethernet, but can't have both enabled at the same time, and it's not smart enough to auto-swap to ethernet if USB is not plugged in.
I did a port scan and looks like HTTP is the only service on Ethernet.
To: Mike
I watched your teardown and remembered your comments on the beeper. Turns out you can set the beeper to beep on trigger.
From pg. 181 of the manual, Remote Control Commands
SYSTem:BEEPer:TRIG:STATe
Enables or disables the beep if a trigger occurs.
Parameters:
<TriggerBeep> ON | OFF
I was under the impression that there is a button / menu choice for all commands, but I have no way to test my assumption. yet ^-^
This does work, and it is persistent across power cycles, However it's extremely quiet - if you have something next to it with a more noisy fan you can barely hear it. On the plus side you can leave it on and it won't be annoying
Haven't seen it in any menus, and don't think there is a way to enter SCPI on the scope - you can do it via the web interface.
Incidentally I just noticed that interfacing is via USB OR Ethernet, but can't have both enabled at the same time, and it's not smart enough to auto-swap to ethernet if USB is not plugged in.
I did a port scan and looks like HTTP is the only service on Ethernet.
:-DD Just wait, some dude will come out with a "hack" that puts a whacking great buzzer on it! (won't be me!) :palm:
Starting today they are listed by Elpav (Italian distributor):
http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm (http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm)
RTB2002 (70MHz 2Ch) euro 1.250,00
RTBM2004 (70MHz 4Ch) euro 1.900,00
RTB-221 (up 100MHz 2Ch) euro 275,00
RTB-222 (up 200MHz 2Ch) euro 895,00
RTB-223 (up 300MHz 2Ch) euro 1.700,00
RTB-241 (up 100MHz 4Ch) euro 225,00
RTB-242 (up 200MHz 4Ch) euro 745,00
RTB-243 (up 300MHz 2Ch) euro 1.750,00
RTB-B1 (up to MSO) euro 700,00
RTB-B6 (gen. arb. 25MHz) euro 700,00
Why would the 4-channel upgrades to 100 or 200 MHz be less expensive than the corresponding 2-channel upgrades??
Or do I have to buy them both, e.g. RTB-222 to upgrade the first 2 channels to 200 MHz, plus RTB-242 to upgrade the other two channels?
Don't get me wrong, the RTB2000 are perfectly usable scopes, but lack the fun of using the Agilent/Keysight infiniivision scopes. On the dated MSO5000/6000 series, turning the dedicated intensity knob brought up a vu-meter style popup indicating the intensity level. One may believe that the needle and the knob are linked with gears, there's zero lag. The same goes for the timebase knob: Spinning the timebase knob makes you forget that you're operating a DSO, it's as fast as with a good old analog 'scope. Perhaps I'm kinda spoiled, but that's what I expect from DSOs these days. Agilent managed to do it with a PowerPC CPU and an ASIC 10 years ago, so it shouldn't be rocket science today...
Starting today they are listed by Elpav (Italian distributor):
http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm (http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm)
RTB2002 (70MHz 2Ch) euro 1.250,00
RTBM2004 (70MHz 4Ch) euro 1.900,00
RTB-221 (up 100MHz 2Ch) euro 275,00
RTB-222 (up 200MHz 2Ch) euro 895,00
RTB-223 (up 300MHz 2Ch) euro 1.700,00
RTB-241 (up 100MHz 4Ch) euro 225,00
RTB-242 (up 200MHz 4Ch) euro 745,00
RTB-243 (up 300MHz 2Ch) euro 1.750,00
RTB-B1 (up to MSO) euro 700,00
RTB-B6 (gen. arb. 25MHz) euro 700,00
No mention of decode options cost :-//
Don't get me wrong, the RTB2000 are perfectly usable scopes, but lack the fun of using the Agilent/Keysight infiniivision scopes. On the dated MSO5000/6000 series, turning the dedicated intensity knob brought up a vu-meter style popup indicating the intensity level. One may believe that the needle and the knob are linked with gears, there's zero lag. The same goes for the timebase knob: Spinning the timebase knob makes you forget that you're operating a DSO, it's as fast as with a good old analog 'scope. Perhaps I'm kinda spoiled, but that's what I expect from DSOs these days. Agilent managed to do it with a PowerPC CPU and an ASIC 10 years ago, so it shouldn't be rocket science today...
I still use my Agilent 54622D scope a lot more than my Rigol MSO2702A. It boots very fast. It can trigger CAN, LIN, SPI, i2c, pattern... even USB on CH1, CH2 and any of the 16 digital channels. It lacks color and serial DECODE, but for a 15 year old scope, it is amazing. And as Lukas says, the vu-meter intensity indicator works very well. You can buy used units on eBay for around $250-$300 and they are usually in a good shape. Digital probe cable is missing on most of these items, but you can get replacements also on eBay for little money.
Ordered from the Canadian site, and the order went through! Only to get an email today from Newark that the order has been cancelled due to "export restrictions".
Fail #2.
You can buy used units on eBay for around $250-$300 and they are usually in a good shape. Digital probe cable is missing on most of these items, but you can get replacements also on eBay for little money.
3) Not sure how you do the next part, to ensure just one capture in a single recordTrigger Mode: NORMAL
That only gives you the last record. You need segmented to capture multiple records3) Not sure how you do the next part, to ensure just one capture in a single recordTrigger Mode: NORMAL
Sorry, I was answering only question #3.That only gives you the last record. You need segmented to capture multiple records3) Not sure how you do the next part, to ensure just one capture in a single recordTrigger Mode: NORMAL
I'm looking forward to Mike's next reviews. Hopefully that test of a 20Hz 400uV sine on high res mode to see if it can do what the HMO1212 did. :)I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.
No attenuator at hand? I create low level signals using an attenuator. The noise gets attenuated as well.I'm looking forward to Mike's next reviews. Hopefully that test of a 20Hz 400uV sine on high res mode to see if it can do what the HMO1212 did. :)I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.
Yes but only if it's shieldedNo attenuator at hand? I create low level signals using an attenuator. The noise gets attenuated as well.I'm looking forward to Mike's next reviews. Hopefully that test of a 20Hz 400uV sine on high res mode to see if it can do what the HMO1212 did. :)I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.
I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.
Still what is special about displaying a 400uV (RMS I assume?) 20Hz signal? I don't think there are DSOs out there which can't do that. I just tried my daily driver and it will trigger at even lower signal levels.
Currently a GDS2204E but that bottoms out at 650uVpp (233uV RMS).Still what is special about displaying a 400uV (RMS I assume?) 20Hz signal? I don't think there are DSOs out there which can't do that. I just tried my daily driver and it will trigger at even lower signal levels.According to the screenshot in post 450, where ci11 put out the challenge originally, it should be 400uV p-p. It seems that limiting the bandwidth (to 20 MHz, I assume) is allowed.
I forget -- which scope do you use as your "daily driver"?
Dave still hasn't reviewed scopes he does have ;D
Still what is special about displaying a 400uV (RMS I assume?) 20Hz signal? I don't think there are DSOs out there which can't do that. I just tried my daily driver and it will trigger at even lower signal levels.According to the screenshot in post 450, where ci11 put out the challenge originally, it should be 400uV p-p. It seems that limiting the bandwidth (to 20 MHz, I assume) is allowed.
I have two units, one to giveaway!
BTW, I'm told that the launch deal on this scope is limited to 300 scopes in each market segment (US, Asia, Europe), so you'd better get in quick before the universities scoop them up.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C74i2QZVUAAWuSz.jpg:large)
I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.
If you have a 24 bit sound card in a PC the (free) ARTA audio testing software will do the job:
http://www.artalabs.hr/ (http://www.artalabs.hr/)
You will loose bits as the PC volume slider is decreased, but still will probably be above the 16 bits of the high-res scope mode. If it won't go that low before cutoff with the PC slider a resistive divider would be OK, just stay above 5K or so total to keep from loading whatever the sound card is using for an output chip. I know that is a lot of set-up stuff though and probably not on the schedule any time soon. :) I'll do the test when I eventually get my RTB2004's, in May now they say. I have a ultra-low THD 1KHz audio oscillator, the oscillator in a Keithley 2015, and the oscillator in a QuantAsylum QA401 audio analyzer (which is essentially a 24 bit sound card in a box).
BTW, in case folks don't remember from previous posts, this is ci11's request from back in post 450. He and I are audio guys, so the ability of that HMO1212 in high res mode to trigger and display the 20Hz 400uV waveform is pretty good stuff. :) The theory here is that the RTB 2004 should be able to do at least as well, probably better, since it seems to have HAMEG DNA, lol.
Rich could easily do the test too, if he should happen to have access to a R&S UPV. It can generate 20Hz at -100dB THD+N.
Do they have the special deal going on in Australia ?
Dave,
Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.
Dave,
Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 *1.1 = $3000.48 GST inclusive (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.
Just to spell it out again to buy the scope here it will cost you "AUS $3000.48 + delivery charges"
Dave,
Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 *1.1 = $3000.48 GST inclusive (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.
Just to spell it out again to buy the scope here it will cost you "AUS $3000.48 + delivery charges"
Dave,
Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 *1.1 = $3000.48 GST inclusive (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.
Just to spell it out again to buy the scope here it will cost you "AUS $3000.48 + delivery charges"
Unfortunately, I don't have a UPV (or any source/attenuator that can make that signal). I'll see if someone in Munich can do it though.I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.
Rich could easily do the test too, if he should happen to have access to a R&S UPV. It can generate 20Hz at -100dB THD+N.
FYI:
These are the fees I pay to get my multimeters into the country:
(http://i.imgur.com/66HnKMg.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/Y2hAG0S.png)
And people expect Oz seller to sell at the same price as other countries? :-//
Rich could easily do the test too, if he should happen to have access to a R&S UPV. It can generate 20Hz at -100dB THD+N.Unfortunately, I don't have a UPV (or any source/attenuator that can make that signal). I'll see if someone in Munich can do it though.
-Rich
Dave still hasn't reviewed scopes he does have ;D
Reviewing scopes properly takes several days solid work at least. I rarely get that sort of break, or can find time to commit to that at the moment.
And yes I have a wife and two kids (one school age, & one of which I take care of 1 full work day a week), a business to run, a new logistics employee to train, two new products in progress, and it's not like I can do lab stuff or shoot video at home when the wife is sleeping. Not to mention other videos I want to do.
20Hz @ 400 uV tortures a Keysight DSOX3000 series - in high res mode it will display it, trigger is hit/miss and measurements such as the frequency counter won't work. Of course the 1mV per division is zoomed and it is 8 bit. I used a 33250A with a 30dB attenuator to generate the signal.
For me, if you want a decent real world scope review, Mike's are honest real world tests, not just spec and feature testing. They include the good and the bad. I can see him becoming -the- de facto scope tester.Ain't gonna happen...
For me, if you want a decent real world scope review, Mike's are honest real world tests, not just spec and feature testing. They include the good and the bad. I can see him becoming -the- de facto scope tester.Ain't gonna happen...
My point being that Dave tends to be doing teardowns rather than in-use reviews
Indeed, scope demo boards have their uses, those boards are designed to show off the good bits, not the less good bits.
Several "reviewers" are really out of their depth and/or only seem to receive scopes because they have significant Youtube subs or views, indeed I'm slightly surprised Pewdiepie, Casey Niestat or Zoella don't get scopes... or maybe they do.
Maybe that is the whole point of sending scopes to reviewers: only show the good parts and get attention.
Re. low-level stuff.
The smallest 20Hz sinewave signal it will reliably trigger from is about 1mV p-p. There is a slight offset on the trigger level and it's a little jittery- maybe 3-4%.
These were with intensity at 100%
TBH if you're seriously working with signals that low you should probably be using an external amplifier - not too difficult or expensive at audio levels.
Maybe that is the whole point of sending scopes to reviewers who use the demo boards: only show the good parts and get attention.
Maybe that is the whole point of sending scopes to reviewers: only show the good parts and get attention.
Dave also shares his opinion on what he likes about it and what he thinks is useful or better or well done. Certainly able to dis a product too;
or Mike's bug findings and usability/feature suggestions.
Point being that you get a broad overview of the scope by watching different style reviews and not just the one that identifies that it has too little memory ;)
I've been looking forward to Dave getting the RTB2000.
Scope reviews are difficult.
The public does not give shit about good on bad reviews.
With regards to using an external amplifier: differential amplifiers or probes offer more amplification of low level signals, but they do not increase the dynamic range. Good low level sensitivity increases both signal integrity and the dynamic range hence the usefulness of the scope for audio.
(e.g. I initially though that the UART decode framing issue might have been because I was running at 2Mbaud, but then verified it at more common rates.)
Yes - the R&S would take forever to cover thouroughly. All you can do is cover the basics and then look at what interests you, or what features are unusual (good or bad). I did nearly an hour just on serial decodes....QuoteScope reviews are difficult.
They are actually impossible to do thoroughly.
Even on a basic scope like the new Siglent 2CH entry level job, testing and demoing every function everyone is interested in would be a several hour review.
Not to mention it being impossible to evaluate every feature in every combination to find bugs and usability issues etc. It's purely pot-luck.
Even my "quick overview" videos end up with 100-200 clips shot.
Quoteor Mike's bug findings and usability/feature suggestions.I usually find bugs and mention feature/usability issues in almost every review. Not sure why you think that would be a Mike only thing?
With regards to using an external amplifier: differential amplifiers or probes offer more amplification of low level signals, but they do not increase the dynamic range. Good low level sensitivity increases both signal integrity and the dynamic range hence the usefulness of the scope for audio.
hmm! Low sensitivity on its own is ofc nice but the scope's input amp still only does 1mV/DIV over 8 DIV with whatever resolution it has.
You can't take advantage of sensitivity unless you can see the signal (dynamic range increased by HiRes mode) or what am I missing?
A good low noise preamp will do exactly that: improve system sensitivity, and give a noise figure better than that of the scope without preamp.
You don't necessarily give up measurement range either if your preamp has good enough noise figure, you can put attenuation after the preamp and still improve sensitivity while not amplifying overall anymore.
I also don't see how signal integrity is improved by lower sensitivity, sensitivity means I can detect signal - whether it's in good condition or not.
Naturally, a good preamp or differential amp can bring up the signal level but they cannot make up for shortfalls inside the scope's analog front end, which is the job of the scope maker. The RTB with its proprietary 10-bit ADC and R&S' analog expertise promises a lot, and that is my original question - how can this goodness with a low level signal at low frequencies be quantified?An external amplifier can make up for lower low-level performance, both in input and trigger. Some of the front-end noise will go away at higher input levels.
Naturally, a good preamp or differential amp can bring up the signal level but they cannot make up for shortfalls inside the scope's analog front end, which is the job of the scope maker. The RTB with its proprietary 10-bit ADC and R&S' analog expertise promises a lot, and that is my original question - how can this goodness with a low level signal at low frequencies be quantified?An external amplifier can make up for lower low-level performance, both in input and trigger. Some of the front-end noise will go away at higher input levels.
See attached for full-screen 20Hz sinewave at 2.5 and 25mV/div ( using internal gen which has 20mv lower limit)
Scope rainbow!
Yes - the R&S would take forever to cover thouroughly. All you can do is cover the basics and then look at what interests you, or what features are unusual (good or bad). I did nearly an hour just on serial decodes....
I agree. The review I wrote early last year took me nearly 6 weeks (combined with other work) to complete and I still didn't cover everything. I don't even want to think how to edit that into a video. It would be like a music video clip!Yes - the R&S would take forever to cover thouroughly. All you can do is cover the basics and then look at what interests you, or what features are unusual (good or bad). I did nearly an hour just on serial decodes....QuoteScope reviews are difficult.They are actually impossible to do thoroughly.
Even on a basic scope like the new Siglent 2CH entry level job, testing and demoing every function everyone is interested in would be a several hour review.
Not to mention it being impossible to evaluate every feature in every combination to find bugs and usability issues etc. It's purely pot-luck.
Even my "quick overview" videos end up with 100-200 clips shot.
4 analogue, 4 references plus mathsScope rainbow!
You found the Nyan Cat feature.
Is that the 4 analog channels plus 4 math channels?
Sooo... has it killed anyone yet? :popcorn: I came here for some gore but got a testing methodology discussion instead.The MSOX1000 would make a better wepon - smaller and heavier ( steel vs. aluminium chassis)
Stealth scopes? That'll push the price through the roof.Sooo... has it killed anyone yet? :popcorn: I came here for some gore but got a testing methodology discussion instead.The MSOX1000 would make a better wepon - smaller and heavier ( steel vs. aluminium chassis)
Also the less shiny screen means the victim is less likely to see you coming.
Scope rainbow!
You found the Nyan Cat feature.
Is that the 4 analog channels plus 4 math channels?
Bugger - forgot about annotations! I think have a cunning plan....Scope rainbow!
You found the Nyan Cat feature.
Is that the 4 analog channels plus 4 math channels?
4 math channels would be nice ... but its done with 4 reference waveforms
@mike add a unicorn with the annotation tool and post it under #RTB2000 :-+
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEaaCZ39wqU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEaaCZ39wqU)Seems like you made the video private? So Youtube claims it isn't there?
Pity the ARB only has one channel - could have done sound as well with 2!
Nyanscope! Excuse poor cat drawing skills.Naahhh it's cool enough as it is! :-+ Had a good laugh about it!
Getting the solid pink block was tricky - the annotation only stores a finite number of blobs - if you keep drawing, earlier stuff disappears. Had do do something nasty using a reference waveform.
Pity the ARB only has one channel - could have done sound as well with 2!
SYSTem:BEEPer[:IMMediate]
Generates an immediate beep.
see: https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/h/hmo1002_1202/HMO1002_1202_SCPI_ProgrammersManual_en_01.pdf page 206Why hack? If it follows the logic of the other R&S Scopes it should beIt beeps (rather quietly) but no pitch controlCode: [Select]SYSTem:BEEPer[:IMMediate]
see: https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/h/hmo1002_1202/HMO1002_1202_SCPI_ProgrammersManual_en_01.pdf page 206
Generates an immediate beep.
could you try this mike?
I have two units, one to giveaway!
BTW, I'm told that the launch deal on this scope is limited to 300 scopes in each market segment (US, Asia, Europe), so you'd better get in quick before the universities scoop them up.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C74i2QZVUAAWuSz.jpg:large)
1. ok we understand that a full RTB2000 review is too much for Dave for doing it right now. 2. On the other side the RTB2000 has some features many users are waiting for since the invention of the DSO :)
How can this discrepancy be solved?
I have two units, one to giveaway!
Why hack? If it follows the logic of the other R&S Scopes it should beIt beeps (rather quietly) but no pitch controlCode: [Select]SYSTem:BEEPer[:IMMediate]
see: https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/h/hmo1002_1202/HMO1002_1202_SCPI_ProgrammersManual_en_01.pdf page 206
Generates an immediate beep.
could you try this mike?
Which other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.1. ok we understand that a full RTB2000 review is too much for Dave for doing it right now. 2. On the other side the RTB2000 has some features many users are waiting for since the invention of the DSO :)I drop everything else I have going on, including the two other scopes that came before this one that everyone is waiting for too.
How can this discrepancy be solved?
Don't think you can modulate with an arb, but there are quite a few options.Why hack? If it follows the logic of the other R&S Scopes it should beIt beeps (rather quietly) but no pitch controlCode: [Select]SYSTem:BEEPer[:IMMediate]
see: https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/h/hmo1002_1202/HMO1002_1202_SCPI_ProgrammersManual_en_01.pdf page 206
Generates an immediate beep.
could you try this mike?
... is there an arb waveform available to fm-modulate a sine wave on the gen output?
Pity the ARB only has one channel - could have done sound as well with 2!
How can this discrepancy be solved?
I drop everything else I have going on, including the two other scopes that came before this one that everyone is waiting for too.
Especially if the BNCs aren't bolted to the chassis! (Sorry, couldn't resist).No, careful! Please don't drop a scope! :PHow can this discrepancy be solved?I drop everything else I have going on, including the two other scopes that came before this one that everyone is waiting for too.
Especially if the BNCs aren't bolted to the chassis! (Sorry, couldn't resist).No, careful! Please don't drop a scope! :PHow can this discrepancy be solved?I drop everything else I have going on, including the two other scopes that came before this one that everyone is waiting for too.
Which other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.
Sounds like a job for the new employee...Which other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.
Keysight 1000X, Siglent 1000X-E, and I haven't done the Hameg or the GW Instek either. That four scopes that come before the R&S.
Which other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.
Keysight 1000X, Siglent 1000X-E, and I haven't done the Hameg or the GW Instek either. That four scopes that come before the R&S.
Do the Hameg and GW Instek so you have something new to show & tell. Others have already beaten you when it comes to the other scopes.Which other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.
Keysight 1000X, Siglent 1000X-E, and I haven't done the Hameg or the GW Instek either. That four scopes that come before the R&S.
Do the Hameg and GW Instek so you have something new to show & tell. Others have already beaten you when it comes to the other scopes.
Others have already beaten you when it comes to the other scopes.No they have not, the 'reviews' were useless (for the RTB at least)!
Still it is zero information versus some information. I rather know more about the scopes with zero information available than the ones I've already seen in action. Mike's RTB2000 review & teardown was pretty thourough anyway and with the presale event over it is a very expensive scope.Others have already beaten you when it comes to the other scopes.No they have not, the 'reviews' were useless (for the RTB at least)!
Only Mike's showed it in actual use and you can see stuff on the screen. Dave does different things with scopes so it would still be valuable.
Also, there is quite a few people on the forum who bought the presale and would love to get Dave's impression.
Mike's RTB2000 review & teardown was pretty thourough anyway and with the presale event over it is a very expensive scope.
You can't do a full functional test in a review. What Mike has showed (besides decoding) is how the menu's work, how the general operation works, etc so all in all it is a good review to get an idea whether you like the way it works or not. If you are really interested in buying it then have to do more homework, get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.Mike's RTB2000 review & teardown was pretty thourough anyway and with the presale event over it is a very expensive scope.What are you talking about he only looked at the decoding and that was thorough, but far from all as he said himself. There is tons in the scope we haven't seen yet.
Do the Hameg and GW Instek so you have something new to show & tell. Others have already beaten you when it comes to the other scopes.
I don't care about being beaten.
and with the presale event over it is a very expensive scope.
...and with the presale event over it is a very expensive scope.
If you are really interested in buying it then have to do more homework, get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.
I think some options are too expensive but the base versions and the bandwidth-upgrades are ok. Even if it would be an 8bit DSO. But it is not. And it is the only 10bit device in that price class as far as I know. No competition for the moment. How to evaluate the fair price? Depends on the user and how much he needs I device that has less noise than other DSOs.
Only 50 units available apparenlty, total, at the promo price. No idea how many are sold already.
Homework=reading the specifications and user manual(s) to determine the exact functions and limitations. Review videos are just like a articles in a magazine to get people's interest going but by no means a good source of information to make a purchase decission for several $k.If you are really interested in buying it then have to do more homework, get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.OFC I am interested, why do you think I keep posting in here - which IS part of "doing the homework". Man I dislike remarks like that.
You can't get a loaner of this, hell you can't even buy it (5-6 weeks lead time) since there is no stock in EU. Which is the whole point of the reviewers getting early units.
Only 50 units available apparenlty, total, at the promo price. No idea how many are sold already.
I was told there are 300 units in each market. US/EU/APAC
I hope those can be fixed by firmware....
Right. The first bug, though could be sampling hardware timing related, no?
True. Time will tell I guess... ;)
How does one actually compare the noise correctly? If I see it correctly in the review videos the RTB2000 seems to have 10 vertical divisions? On the other boxes it seems to be 8? Is this true or are my eyes getting old?
So do I have to scale the numbers in some way?
P.S. Still waiting at my delivery: expected next week :-). Did anybody else already get his box?
That's useful, except the user manual is far from complete - in particular no significant docs on any of the options. There are also errors in the datasheets ( e.g. UART baudrate)Homework=reading the specifications and user manual(s) to determine the exact functions and limitations. Review videos are just like a articles in a magazine to get people's interest going but by no means a good source of information to make a purchase decission for several $k.If you are really interested in buying it then have to do more homework, get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.OFC I am interested, why do you think I keep posting in here - which IS part of "doing the homework". Man I dislike remarks like that.
You can't get a loaner of this, hell you can't even buy it (5-6 weeks lead time) since there is no stock in EU. Which is the whole point of the reviewers getting early units.
It does often seem to do more apparently intialising- type stuff when changing apparently minor things, like it's reinitialising everything on any change that might affect something rather than only changing what's needed - I think maybe this makes some things fell a little more clunky than they should.
A few more minutes playing uncovered this problem:
I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?
Also, I must admit I find it a bit amusing how Dave seems genuinely disappointed at first when Siglent doesn't seem to exhibit any tapping problems while the Rigol is "good old" even the second before showing the ridiculous scale of effect at the slightest of touches ;D
How many people actually tap on a touchscren?
All scopes to it to some extent.
On my unit I also see ch1 being more sensitive, but no sensible-strength tap on the screen shows it at all.
..and hasn't complained about the issue, so clearly not a big deal.Also, I must admit I find it a bit amusing how Dave seems genuinely disappointed at first when Siglent doesn't seem to exhibit any tapping problems while the Rigol is "good old" even the second before showing the ridiculous scale of effect at the slightest of touches ;D
Only "good old" because every man and his dog has one.
I've never touched harder than is needed - maybe different people have different styles.How many people actually tap on a touchscren?
All the time.
I've never touched harder than is needed - maybe different people have different styles.How many people actually tap on a touchscren?
All the time.
The problem with the R&S is that a big feature is the touch screen, and you can see at the end of the video how just tapping it causes a large scale signal impulse. And I was only at 2mV per division, not 1mV.
I have it on a shelf above the bench, so the natural angle is to touch it with the pad of the finger - maybe if it's lower down it's prone to getting a harder touch and occasional fingernailI've never touched harder than is needed - maybe different people have different styles.How many people actually tap on a touchscren?
All the time.
This. Dave seems to inadvertently trigger some action on any touchscreen device in pretty much every episode featuring one ("Bloody touchscreens!") ;) I, on the other hand, hate fingerprints on non-touch screens and I'm sure I have stuff I used for years without ever putting my greasy fingers to its LCD. We had one colleague at work who was going absolutely ballistic when you touched his PC's screen.
I've never touched harder than is needed - maybe different people have different styles.
It does seem to vary between units - maybe depends how tightly the screws near the front-end are tightened - I think mine had loctite on before i took it apart - have you had yours apart yet ?
Mine shows significant disturbance on ch1, and only slight on ch4 when tapping the top case with fingers.
Really don't see it being a problem.
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?I don't think it is broken by design. If you watch the whole video, all the scopes does the same. You can avoid the full touchscreen interface and operate it remotely when you need to do really sensitive measurements.
But not in the same amount. The Keysight and Siglent (GW Instek too BTW) need a really hard wack to distort the signal.Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?I don't think it is broken by design. If you watch the whole video, all the scopes does the same.
Now have a picture of people all across the world currently whacking their scopes, DMMS, PSU's, SMU's ....
Looking forward to future teardowns looking at whack-a-scope attenuation and for cushion mounted mainboards and connectors :)
Does whack-a-scope also cause peaks on any signal generator output? ... or DMMs and Power Supplies?
That could cause fun on SMU tests if they suffer too :p
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?I don't think it is broken by design. If you watch the whole video, all the scopes does the same. You can avoid the full touchscreen interface and operate it remotely when you need to do really sensitive measurements.
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?I don't think it is broken by design. If you watch the whole video, all the scopes does the same. You can avoid the full touchscreen interface and operate it remotely when you need to do really sensitive measurements.
It was blindly obvious to me in the first few minutes of using it, so I'd say it's a problem.
Tapping the BNC's, ok, every scope has a direct coupling at that point, fair enough.
Whacking the top of the unit, ok, don't do that, fair enough.
But a much touted touch screen being able to generate many division level impulses when tapped is unacceptable, even if some units aren't as susceptible.
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?
This is how 8k-20k€ equipment is working ... while hitting the inputs with fingernails. Slapping the chassis produces this as well but not that high, its mostly covered by its noise.
I´ve to hit my RTB unit pretty hard before its doing this.
In normal use there s no problem with my one.
If you want this problem fixed, just talk to marketing. They'll insist upon the world's first "Low Vibration Front End".
The sales people will love because they'll be able to do side-by-side demos tapping on the competitor BNCs and showing how crap they are!
I'm serious.
LowVibTM ;D
or the even better NoVibTM
The first manufacturer to come up with an isolated front end daughter board held in place by rubber bands will win the market I tell you.
A killing will also be had on 3rd party rubber band replacement kits in 10 years time.
Just don't try to patent it, I have prior art more than a decade back.
I also have prior art on using cotton wool, antistatic foam, sorbothane, and feminine hygine products (long story).
Pro tip, it's also possible to get helpful isolation using various jazzy PCB routing techniques.
Well this is very disappointing!
On the 16th March I paid for and placed an order for a Rohde & Schwarz RTB2K-COM4 package with TEquipment.
This was before any message appeared on their web page stating "SHIPPING TO USA ADDRESSES ONLY!".
The order was accepted and the next day I spoke to lady from TEquipment who confirmed my address and payment.
A couple of days latter I had an email conversations with TEquipment about shipping dates and was assured that I would receive a unit. In fact it was stressed that I was likely to receive one with much sooner than the quoted 3rd May.
Then just now I received a email saying:
"Unfortunately due to our contractual obligations with R & S we are unable to export any of the items sold by them and we will have to cancel the order you placed with us."
TEquipment then refunded my money that they had kindly kept in their bank for me over the last 13 days.
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.
Grrr.
Well this is very disappointing!
[...]
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.
Grrr.
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.
Or mount them on their side ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it >:D
Well this is very disappointing!
[...]
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.
Grrr.
Maybe you can buy Octane's scope -- he seems to be regretting his purchase now (see post #706 in this thread). Win-win! ;)
Knocked the enclosure in the picture, knocking BNC is ~ 3 div wide instead. Still, it's VERY much affected
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.
Or mount them on their side ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it >:D
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.
Or mount them on their side ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it >:D
I would guess it depends on the relative orientation between the cap and the PCB. Not the overall orientation.
I am testing my EDUX1002G scope and it is affected by the Wack-a-Scope feature. But if I connect a 50ohm BNC terminator in CH1, then it is Wack-immune. If I turn both CH1 (still with 50 ohm terminator at input) and CH2 ON, then I Wack the scope and I only see the issue on CH2.Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.
Or mount them on their side ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it >:D
I would guess it depends on the relative orientation between the cap and the PCB. Not the overall orientation. If you excite flexing vibrations in the PCB then bending a "flat" cap is easier then a cap that's higher then wide. See beams with different aspect ratios...
I am testing my EDUX1002G scope and it is affected by the Wack-a-Scope feature. But if I connect a 50ohm BNC terminator in CH1, then it is Wack-immune. If I turn both CH1 (still with 50 ohm terminator at input) and CH2 ON, then I Wack the scope and I only see the issue on CH2.Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.
Or mount them on their side ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it >:D
I would guess it depends on the relative orientation between the cap and the PCB. Not the overall orientation. If you excite flexing vibrations in the PCB then bending a "flat" cap is easier then a cap that's higher then wide. See beams with different aspect ratios...
Another test: 10Hz 2mVpp sinusoidal signal from WaveGen, direct BNC-BNC cable to CH1. Both CH1 and CH2 ON. Display persistence infinite. Wack the scope (quite hard) and CH1 signal does not seem to be affected, only CH2.I am testing my EDUX1002G scope and it is affected by the Wack-a-Scope feature. But if I connect a 50ohm BNC terminator in CH1, then it is Wack-immune. If I turn both CH1 (still with 50 ohm terminator at input) and CH2 ON, then I Wack the scope and I only see the issue on CH2.Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.
Or mount them on their side ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it >:D
I would guess it depends on the relative orientation between the cap and the PCB. Not the overall orientation. If you excite flexing vibrations in the PCB then bending a "flat" cap is easier then a cap that's higher then wide. See beams with different aspect ratios...
I guess this makes sense. Since it is a piezoelectric effect you can easily "short" the voltage with the 50 Ohm resistor.
Piezos can get you high voltages with basically no current through them, as long as you are not driving them at there mechanical resonance.
Another test: 10Hz 2mVpp sinusoidal signal from WaveGen, direct BNC-BNC cable to CH1. Both CH1 and CH2 ON. Display persistence infinite. Wack the scope (quite hard) and CH1 signal does not seem to be affected, only CH2.I am testing my EDUX1002G scope and it is affected by the Wack-a-Scope feature. But if I connect a 50ohm BNC terminator in CH1, then it is Wack-immune. If I turn both CH1 (still with 50 ohm terminator at input) and CH2 ON, then I Wack the scope and I only see the issue on CH2.Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.
Or mount them on their side ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it >:D
I would guess it depends on the relative orientation between the cap and the PCB. Not the overall orientation. If you excite flexing vibrations in the PCB then bending a "flat" cap is easier then a cap that's higher then wide. See beams with different aspect ratios...
I guess this makes sense. Since it is a piezoelectric effect you can easily "short" the voltage with the 50 Ohm resistor.
Piezos can get you high voltages with basically no current through them, as long as you are not driving them at there mechanical resonance.
Dave, (off topic but...) in your experience did sorbothane live up to its hype and outperform other common vibration insulators? Or was it only marginally different in use?
I almost wonder if it may at least in part be the dielectric of the BNC connectorYou might be right... Connect a BNC cable to CH1 and Wack the BNC on the other end of the cable...
I almost wonder if it may at least in part be the dielectric of the BNC connectorYou might be right... Connect a BNC cable to CH1 and Wack the BNC on the other end of the cable...
The cable itself is not immune to the effect either. Dave did in the past some experiments with Tek scope and probes, and he also whacked the cable on the bench. And yes, he's got a response on the screen (rewind to 8:00): https://youtu.be/KFCRB4d991E?t=8m4sI almost wonder if it may at least in part be the dielectric of the BNC connectorYou might be right... Connect a BNC cable to CH1 and Wack the BNC on the other end of the cable...
Could it be that you are observing an old and well known
effect called "Microphonics"? Components and cables are known to be
microphonic to a certain extent. Simply tap on a cable carrying a
unbalanced low level microphone signal and you will see what I mean.
But this may not be too relevant, since this seems only to make problems when the channel is open.
But this may not be too relevant, since this seems only to make problems when the channel is open.
Theres huge uncharted territory between open channel and shorted channel. This need scientific approach. Suggest 3D chart with following axes: X - frequency of stimulation (can be done using ultra powerful piezo etc), Y - channel impedance ("load"), Z - scope response. Should take no more than a week of testing :P
Just a reminder that the $2080 promo package deal on the RTB2004 *is* still going on at Newark, but apparently they can only sell into the USA market. They have a pricing mixup with their system though. I exchanged some PMs today with a fellow buying one and Rich from R&S. The website shows $2080 here
http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=rtb2004&categoryId=800000047008&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=rtb2004&categoryId=800000047008&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
But when you put it in your cart the number may flip to the $7900 (or $8600 I just learned) list price for the package. Or it may show the correct price in the cart and $8600 then show up in the email confirm. The system is grabbing from a database that doesn't have the promo pricing now that the deal is over at the other two US distributors. Rich says you have to call into Newark's sales department and talk to them to get it priced correctly, until they can get the database thing worked out.
You could test til the cows come home but there is only really one thing that matters - highest sensible input impedance and highest sensible impact.But this may not be too relevant, since this seems only to make problems when the channel is open.
Theres huge uncharted territory between open channel and shorted channel. This need scientific approach. Suggest 3D chart with following axes: X - frequency of stimulation (can be done using ultra powerful piezo etc, rigidly attached to scope chassis), Y - channel impedance ("load"), Z - scope response. Should take no more than a week of testing :P
Of course there should be 3D acceleration sensors in various places to analyze stimulation wave propagation etc. Ideally it would be not constant wave but single soliton, otherwise standing waves could build up. Altering resonant frequency of chassis, PCB by adding sensors should be also taken into account.
So if done properly bit more than week, maybe year or so...
You could test til the cows come home but there is only really one thing that matters - highest sensible input impedance and highest sensible impact.
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.
Grrr.
Not true I am affraid. I've asked local R&S office directly. Price is over 7k euro ...This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.
Grrr.
Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).
Not true I am affraid. I've asked local R&S office directly. Price is over 7k euro ...This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.
Grrr.
Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).
Not true I am affraid. I've asked local R&S office directly. Price is over 7k euro ...This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.
Grrr.
Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).
Not true I am affraid. I've asked local R&S office directly. Price is over 7k euro ...This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.
Grrr.
Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).
If R&S, after offering the launch deal to their EU distribution partners and being turned down, decided to go around them and offer it direct in the EU that would be a huge middle finger at them. That's no way to treat your distributors.
Or mount them on their side ;D (it works)Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it >:D
Dave, (off topic but...) in your experience did sorbothane live up to its hype and outperform other common vibration insulators? Or was it only marginally different in use?
Could it be that you are observing an old and well known
effect called "Microphonics"? Components and cables are known to be
microphonic to a certain extent. Simply tap on a cable carrying a
unbalanced low level microphone signal and you will see what I mean.
If R&S, after offering the launch deal to their EU distribution partners and being turned down, decided to go around them and offer it direct in the
EU that would be a huge middle finger at them. That's no way to treat your distributors.
I almost wonder if it may at least in part be the dielectric of the BNC connector
Not true I am affraid. I've asked local R&S office directly. Price is over 7k euro ...This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.
Grrr.
Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).
If R&S, after offering the launch deal to their EU distribution partners and being turned down, decided to go around them and offer it direct in the EU that would be a huge middle finger at them. That's no way to treat your distributors.
I would put it the other way around in that it's no way to treat your customers!
What is the logic in the only the North Americans having the benefit of the RTB2K-COM4 package?
It's like sticking two fingers up to the rest of the world and I am not sure that it was anything to do with the distributors. I do not think all the other distributors in the rest of the world said "no we do not want the easy business".
I suspect it's R & S giving massive discount support to the US distributors and none for anyone else.
Not that I am bitter or anything.
Knocked the enclosure in the picture, knocking BNC is ~ 3 div wide instead. Still, it's VERY much affected
My old Tek TDS2024 have been beaten for 5 min and nothing.
If R&S, after offering the launch deal to their EU distribution partners and being turned down, decided to go around them and offer it direct in the
EU that would be a huge middle finger at them. That's no way to treat your distributors.
Maybe this (not well thought) strategy will rise R&S brand view at North America.
Rest of the world will remember this deal quite opposite I'm affraid.
With a 50R terminator on the input the issue completely disappears - only a hard wack on the connector produces maybe 1 div, so looks like energy transer into a very early part of the input stage.
Even plugging in a standard 10:1 probe with its tip shorted reduces the issue very substantially.
I've follow the Dave's procedure using mostly verticaly, hand, plastic pen, screwdriver even. Hitting at the top and bnc's causes nothing.Knocked the enclosure in the picture, knocking BNC is ~ 3 div wide instead. Still, it's VERY much affected
My old Tek TDS2024 have been beaten for 5 min and nothing.
knocking by hand did (alsmost) nothing. could see the perturbation but couldn't trigger it. knocking with stick/multimeter probe did that mess.
please note the verical sensitivity. The TPS is excellent for its purpose (separated, isolated channels) otherwise it's a scope with terrible performance. it's otrageous you still have to pay the same price for this old crap
AFAIR the TPS is a TDS but with an isolated frond end acquisition board - per channel - . i'd have to check the service manual but i think it has a differend board per channel
It seems, that this promo in USA and Canada was a "solo attempt" of the R&S folks in America. When they found out in the headquarters in Munich, they were not amused about that.
And he is pretty sure, that a similiar promo will not happen in Europe.
It seems, that this promo in USA and Canada was a "solo attempt" of the R&S folks in America. When they found out in the headquarters in Munich, they were not amused about that.
And he is pretty sure, that a similiar promo will not happen in Europe.
Even with a shorted x10 probe I still get 1-2mV with the poker tap on the screen. Not unexpected as the 9Mohm + low cable cap doesn't present much of a load.
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.Beware the PSU problems.
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.Beware the PSU problems.
Opinion ?Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.Beware the PSU problems.
I'd take your opinion with a grain of salt, as your a siglent dealer.. Running down competition just is a bad bad look
I would hope that cal inputs are switched in from a low impedance source.Even with a shorted x10 probe I still get 1-2mV with the poker tap on the screen. Not unexpected as the 9Mohm + low cable cap doesn't present much of a load.
Ok, so potentially more serious with x100 probe. But what occurred to me is that at least some scopes with "russian trigger" have self-calibration feature, which is done with unloaded connectors and takes long time. Dunno if R&S has such procedure? If does maybe should attach sticker asking not fire machine guns and have other kinds of fun near scope under calibration? Or even put it in sealed nuclear-proof bunker during procedure?
I would hope that cal inputs are switched in from a low impedance source.
There are promos in Europe, just not as good.It seems, that this promo in USA and Canada was a "solo attempt" of the R&S folks in America. When they found out in the headquarters in Munich, they were not amused about that.
And he is pretty sure, that a similiar promo will not happen in Europe.
This makes me even more grateful to R&S USA for pulling this marketing stunt. And also curious how the clam of having a number of scopes allocated for each market stands to reality?
Opinion ?Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.Beware the PSU problems.
I'd take your opinion with a grain of salt, as your a siglent dealer.. Running down competition just is a bad bad look
The evidence is in several threads.
What PSU problems exactly?Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.Beware the PSU problems.
Well at least I can fix a PSU myself. Bugs in firmware however...Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.Beware the PSU problems.
I seem to remember that people have gotten messed up autocal from DS1000Z, no?
Just a reminder that the $2080 promo package deal on the RTB2004 *is* still going on at Newark, but apparently they can only sell into the USA market. They have a pricing mixup with their system though. I exchanged some PMs today with a fellow buying one and Rich from R&S. The website shows $2080 here
http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=rtb2004&categoryId=800000047008&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=rtb2004&categoryId=800000047008&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
But when you put it in your cart the number may flip to the $7900 (or $8600 I just learned) list price for the package. Or it may show the correct price in the cart and $8600 then show up in the email confirm. The system is grabbing from a database that doesn't have the promo pricing now that the deal is over at the other two US distributors. Rich says you have to call into Newark's sales department and talk to them to get it priced correctly, until they can get the database thing worked out.
I ordered one from Newark yesterday, and as predicted, the email confirmation came back today with a total of $7920 (no sales tax here).
After a bit of time on the phone with a confused Newark customer service rep, the order was cancelled/replaced and a confirmation came back with the correct price.
He stated that they had these in stock; shipping date is supposed to be tomorrow.
Opinion ?I'd take your opinion with a grain of salt, as your a siglent dealer.. Running down competition just is a bad bad lookKeysights looking more and more attractive every day.Beware the PSU problems.
The evidence is in several threads.
These and others linked in the thread:What PSU problems exactly?Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.Beware the PSU problems.
These and others linked in the thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hosed-by-my-msox-3024a/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hosed-by-my-msox-3024a/)
True, my oversight, only the first one was related to PSU failure. :palm:These and others linked in the thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hosed-by-my-msox-3024a/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hosed-by-my-msox-3024a/)
The 2 you linked in are not PSU problems!
As some might seem a little touchy about having some of their other problems pointed out I'll let you find them yourselves in the links provided.
Is there anybody here from the US who would be willing to order it for me?
Editing out the part of his message which provided links is REALLY sleazy behaviour.As some might seem a little touchy about having some of their other problems pointed out I'll let you find them yourselves in the links provided.
"Go find the evidence supporting my claim yourself" isn't exactly the way to bolster your claims, even when you provide hints as to where the evidence can be found. They're your claims, so it's on you to support them. If there are messages which support your claim, you can provide links to them directly.
Please set input impedance from 50 Ohm to 1 MOhm and repeat...I somehow had the impression he was using 50 \$\Omega\$ all around. I will retest later today or tomorrow.
OK. I'll bite..... but I cannot get my hands on one due to the distributor restrictions not selling outside of the US (and I thought this would be over).
Is there anybody here from the US who would be willing to order it for me? Preferrably a company so sales tax would not apply for me. I will keep care of the shipping (DHL pickup) and pay all other costs of course and will add some premium for your help. Any details with payment etc. should be discussed in private, so please PM me. Please only reputable forum members with a history.
Thanks!
RTB2000 does not have 50 ohm input optionPlease set input impedance from 50 Ohm to 1 MOhm and repeat...I somehow had the impression he was using 50 \$\Omega\$ all around. I will retest later today or tomorrow.
Why bother ordering a device with such major design flaws? Check the recent video from Dave!Because the US deal is still a fantastic deal, and unless you want to probe very low level signals with a high impedance probe while wacking the scope it's just not a problem in practice.
Can someone summarize the US deal, in terms of pricing and features? When does it end?
First you set the settings, then you measure, you dont measure while you use the touch screen, or am i wrong ?It can be a problem if you look at a signal (zoom in, scroll, enable measurement) with the scope in run mode. You might create a trigger and erase the measurement you made. Basically the sensitivity to tapping forces you to use single trigger mode / switch between run & stop mode in cases where it shouldn't be really necessary.
You can touch the screen a bit softer also, does the clicking switches also trigger the noise ?
Where's the new Rigol? ;DWhich other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.
Keysight 1000X, Siglent 1000X-E, and I haven't done the Hameg or the GW Instek either. That four scopes that come before the R&S.
Just bought a variable audio oscillator good for very low THD at 1Hz - 100KHz at 200uV.
Hi Corax,
Can you confirm that this is the RTB2K-COM4 promo package because the description on the Newark page does not include all the extra options?
Editing out the part of his message which provided links is REALLY sleazy behaviour.As some might seem a little touchy about having some of their other problems pointed out I'll let you find them yourselves in the links provided.
"Go find the evidence supporting my claim yourself" isn't exactly the way to bolster your claims, even when you provide hints as to where the evidence can be found. They're your claims, so it's on you to support them. If there are messages which support your claim, you can provide links to them directly.
It can be a problem if you look at a signal (zoom in, scroll, enable measurement) with the scope in run mode. You might create a trigger and erase the measurement you made. Basically the sensitivity to tapping forces you to use single trigger mode / switch between run & stop mode in cases where it shouldn't be really necessary.
Just got FedEx shipping notice for my scope from Testequity. It's already been picked up from their site, and should arrive at my house by Wednesday 4/5. Seems like kinda a long time to get from Moorpark CA to Minneapolis MN, but it's probably just FedEx ground.
*Briani
Just got FedEx shipping notice for my scope from Testequity. It's already been picked up from their site, and should arrive at my house by Wednesday 4/5. Seems like kinda a long time to get from Moorpark CA to Minneapolis MN, but it's probably just FedEx ground.
*Briani
Mind sharing your order date? I'm roughly 15 minute drive from them so likely take a couple days once they ship mine. :-//
Just got FedEx shipping notice for my scope from Testequity. It's already been picked up from their site, and should arrive at my house by Wednesday 4/5. Seems like kinda a long time to get from Moorpark CA to Minneapolis MN, but it's probably just FedEx ground.
*Briani
Mind sharing your order date? I'm roughly 15 minute drive from them so likely take a couple days once they ship mine. :-//
Sales order date is 3/16. However, I actually placed my order at about 10:30 PM on the 15th after seeing Mike's 7:42 PM tweet. Was able to do it entirely from bed on the smart phone by moving some money around to my PayPal accounts without the wife ever knowing . . .
As has been said, the EU deal for 5500e + tax is again on Farnell (was missing few days) and also on Elfa now.
Can someone summarize the US deal, in terms of pricing and features? When does it end?
Fully loaded RTB2004 for $2080. Seems to be still available at Newark.
The EU deal doesn't seem to match the US deal at all.You can't ( as far as anyone has ascertained to date).
How to get the US deal in Europe? :)
It turns out that this bundle is cheaper than paying for the embedded app bundle for my 3000T series. So get a nice scope + decode options I need, or spend more for just the decode options. What to do, what to do...
I'm in a similar boat. Ordered around 1:30pm on 15th, ship date of the 31st and no notifications yet. Haven't been charged yet either.
Just got FedEx shipping notice for my scope from Testequity. It's already been picked up from their site, and should arrive at my house by Wednesday 4/5. Seems like kinda a long time to get from Moorpark CA to Minneapolis MN, but it's probably just FedEx ground.
If you are really interested in buying it then get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.
Ofcourse you can't have it for a couple of months but a couple of weeks shouldn't be a problem (if it is: walk away). OTOH the last time I got a Lecroy quoted the payment term was 90 days or return it. You simply cannot be expected to spend several $k blindly.If you are really interested in buying it then get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.
Yeah, I'll just pop by the local office and ask if I can have one to play with for a couple of months.
(seriously, in what part of the world does that work?)
It can be a problem if you look at a signal (zoom in, scroll, enable measurement) with the scope in run mode. You might create a trigger and erase the measurement you made. Basically the sensitivity to tapping forces you to use single trigger mode / switch between run & stop mode in cases where it shouldn't be really necessary.
Potentially this issue could be fixed in firmware (partially at least). I can see two possibilities:
1) If the screen digitizer is sensitive enough (many are) it could detect an imminent touch (before physical contact is made) and disable the trigger for the duration of the touch.
2) Alternatively they could implement a double buffer mode that stores the last triggered event momentarily and won't actually display it unless no touch is detected. This would add some lag to the measurement but it would prevent accidental triggering when using the touch screen.
Either method would preferably be toggleable. You would only need to enable it for high sensitivity measurements. Now, whether R&S considers the problem big enough to implement such solutions is another question.
I think Dave got a broken device ...
1) this is weird ... you can´t bypass microphonics by disabling the trigger while you´re touching. This would lead to permanent stopping of acquisition when you e.g.
just want to add a measurement. For setting scales or position its absolutely OK to stop the acquisition, rescale previous ACQs and restart after setting the hardware.
But for everything else doing the same?? This will lead to a chopped up UI feeling and makes the scope feels more sluggish.
2) sounds like a segmented mode with discarding all acquisitions done while touch was detected ... :bullshit:
I managed to fiddle around with a RTB2004 today, i did not have a chance to tap on it before it hanged and presented some garble on the display :palm:Apart from the minor bugs I found & mentioned in the video, and the low-speed update thing Dave found, I've only seen one 'crashy' type issue, where the touchscreen stopped working and needed a powercycle to restore. This was very soon after I got it and wasn't at all familiar with it. I've been using it as my main scope for a few days now & haven't seen anything else yet.
..but it's an early firmware, R&S customers are supposed to just sit down and patiently wait for a stable FW :popcorn:
Ofcourse you can't have it for a couple of months but a couple of weeks shouldn't be a problem (if it is: walk away). OTOH the last time I got a Lecroy quoted the payment term was 90 days or return it. You simply cannot be expected to spend several $k blindly.If you are really interested in buying it then get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.
Yeah, I'll just pop by the local office and ask if I can have one to play with for a couple of months.
(seriously, in what part of the world does that work?)
You are reading it wrong: payment after 90 days or return means you can evaluate it for 90 days before paying :palm:
We've had trouble getting loaners because they only have so many DEMO units available, and they always seem to be out at other companies being 'demoed'.
@slurry: *.bmp only? I skimmed the manual and the online help - any way to select the format to save in (e.g. *.png) ?
And PNG can use lossless compression so it is the perfect image format for test equipment screendumps.@slurry: *.bmp only? I skimmed the manual and the online help - any way to select the format to save in (e.g. *.png) ?... yes it has png as well as bmp on the regular screenshot
What does this instrument view software do?
If the unit holds what the video I just posted ( 4 posts up) promises, it's one of the coolest interfaces I've ever seen on a scope. Also the Webinterface Mike had looked really neat.
( It's like counting down for Christmas)
Link again as new page: www.rohde-schwarz.com/uk/products/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/rtb2000videos/rtb2000-import-and-export-of-data-and-settings-via-usb_231068 (http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/uk/products/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/rtb2000videos/rtb2000-import-and-export-of-data-and-settings-via-usb_231068)
While comparing Rigol's arb gen specs to their standalone genrators, I noticed in the RTB datasheet the following:May not be - could be they generate the fixed waveforms in hardware. There are 2 DACs.
For sine, pulse, ramp etc:
14 bit, Sample rate 250 Msample/s
but the arbitrary mode:
sample rate max. 10 Msample/s
memory depth 16 kpoints
err, is that a typo...?
actually, heh: http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/?rrec=true (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/?rrec=true)
doesn't list out of stock anymore. What the hell...
actually, heh: http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/?rrec=true (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/?rrec=true)
doesn't list out of stock anymore. What the hell...
Maybe people changing their minds, or that many people ordering from outside the US and being dropped due to the restrictions R&S puts on its distributors.
Does anybody know which operating system it uses?
Just looked at TE and they say out of stock for me.Yep, it says (in the text) on the Tequipment page: "PROMOTIONAL PACKAGE IS NOW SOLD OUT"
Just looked at TE and they say out of stock for me.Yep, it says (in the text) on the Tequipment page: "PROMOTIONAL PACKAGE IS NOW SOLD OUT"
But Newark still has 16 on stock but it is a challenge to buy one, if you are not from the US. Using a reshipper will not work, they will cancel your order.
Just looked at TE and they say out of stock for me.Yep, it says (in the text) on the Tequipment page: "PROMOTIONAL PACKAGE IS NOW SOLD OUT"
But Newark still has 16 on stock but it is a challenge to buy one, if you are not from the US. Using a reshipper will not work, they will cancel your order.
Does anybody know which operating system it uses?
FreeRTOS
How do you know, or how did you find out?It's mentioned in their open-source acknowledgement :Does anybody know which operating system it uses?
FreeRTOS
Seems German stores have stock now*: RTB2K-COM4 (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2034MSO-COM-Oszilloskop.htm)
7.190,00 EUR excl. VAT lol :palm:
*: that's only for the COM4 package, all other models are still 'coming soon'
Just looked at TE and they say out of stock for me.Yep, it says (in the text) on the Tequipment page: "PROMOTIONAL PACKAGE IS NOW SOLD OUT"
But Newark still has 16 on stock but it is a challenge to buy one, if you are not from the US. Using a reshipper will not work, they will cancel your order.
Idk! have you clicked my link? It does not say out of stock anywhere.
Net result is many people now deeply dislike R&S. i hope the marketing stunt was worth it.Just looked at TE and they say out of stock for me.Yep, it says (in the text) on the Tequipment page: "PROMOTIONAL PACKAGE IS NOW SOLD OUT"
But Newark still has 16 on stock but it is a challenge to buy one, if you are not from the US. Using a reshipper will not work, they will cancel your order.
When you go to the page, try refreshing your browser, might be looking at an old cached version. I did go to it by clicking on your link.
Net result is many people now deeply dislike R&S. i hope the marketing stunt was worth it.
As far as other regions, It might be the regions themselves that decided to offer a promo or not.I doubt it. Sellers want to sell and they don't care where they have to send it so the limits on the regions are definitaly dictated by R&S. For example: R&S has there own webshops to sell direct so they don't have to listen to the opinions of distributors. They could have offered the launch deal themselves in Europe.
They could have offered the launch deal themselves in Europe.
Which distributors? Check the R&S website and you'll see R&S does their own distribution in Europe.They could have offered the launch deal themselves in Europe.That would really piss off the distributors...
How do you know, or how did you find out?It's mentioned in their open-source acknowledgement :Does anybody know which operating system it uses?
FreeRTOS
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_osa/RTB_OpenSourceAcknowledgment_en_01.pdf
Don't look into your cart! Look at the product page (the link you added) - see pic attached. Though you can still put the item in your cart which does not make sense.When you go to the page, try refreshing your browser, might be looking at an old cached version. I did go to it by clicking on your link.
Odd. Cleared cache, deleted browser history, tried on the phone too with same result.
Edit: added phone screenshot.
Which distributors? Check the R&S website and you'll see R&S does their own distribution in Europe.They could have offered the launch deal themselves in Europe.That would really piss off the distributors...
In Europe R&S has an authorized distributors network [Datatec - Farnell - a.m.o. ... ] - and they also offer direct sales from their local sales organisation.
I prefer to buy directly from R&S to avoid that the unit has been catching dust in a werehouse and calibration period has almost expired - I am talking in general terms - had this once with LeCroy and
that will never overcome me a second time.
Dealing directly with R&S gives me also the opportunity to ask a loan unit for evaluation or sometimes one can buy these loan units with a nice discount.
Dealing directly with R&S gives me more satisfaction.
Yabba Dabba Doo !
Flinstone
55 Cobblestone Road
Bedrock
Don't look into your cart! Look at the product page (the link you added) - see pic attached. Though you can still put the item in your cart which does not make sense.
Just for fun, I tried going to the TE website for the very first time just now and it showed the heavily discounted price and it allowed me to put it in the cart, complete with a free tool set :)
No cache or phones were used!
Seems the price will fluctuate a bit before it settles down. The full bundle for $2080 seems to be a very good deal. I don't see this scope being a good value near the 8K fully loaded price. Seems there are too many other good options out there to make the normal $2080 for the 70MHz base unit not interesting. I'm anxious to get mine and see how it goes.
I hope the pricing does settle out at a reasonable price point or those of us that have them might find ourselves orphaned.
Yeah, I'm not waiting for things to 'settle' down.. tommorrow i'm ordering a Keysight 3000T.. And as a bonus i get a 1000x for free!
That was my first choice but even if I'd paid full price for R&S the equivalent 3000t would cost over 50% more. For what I'm doing with it the sample rate and wfms/s cost way too much. I'm a sucker for big high res screens too, so if they were the same price I probably would have picked R&S anyway. 3000T will probably be my next one.
I don't know anything about this place but they still show the promo price.
http://www.techedu.com/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes/Rohde-&-Schwarz-RTB2K-COM4/ (http://www.techedu.com/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes/Rohde-&-Schwarz-RTB2K-COM4/)
... even the Keysight 3000T is only 800x480!...
800x480 | 640x400 | 67% on Keysight 1000x |
800x480 | 600x400 | 62,5% on Keysight 2000 Class |
800x480 | 640x400 | 67% on Keysight 3000 Class |
800x600 | 640x480 | 64% on Keysight 4000 Class |
640x480 | 600x400 | 78% on (all) Hameg HMO scopes |
1280x768 | 1200x650 | 79% on RTB2000 |
800x480 | 700x400 | 73% on Rigol DS2000 |
800x480 | 700x400 | 73% on Rigol DS4000 |
480x234 | ~450x200 | 80% on Tek MSO 2000 |
so after reading some posts here my conclusion of the scope is:
It would be a nice scope if the "whack-a-scope-issue" wouldn't be so bad. I wonder what R&S will do about it
It would be a nice scope if the "whack-a-scope-issue" wouldn't be so bad. I wonder what R&S will do about it
so after reading some posts here my conclusion of the scope is:
It would be a nice scope if the "whack-a-scope-issue" wouldn't be so bad. I wonder what R&S will do about it
And who really whack's their scope during measurements and when probes are installed?Whacks are the demo, not the threat. Imagine spending hours tracking down a tone in the noise floor of your circuit only to find that it was actually fan whine acoustically coupling into your scope's front end :--
Honest question: Why do scopes all seem to have such crap screens?
I see your point. Problem is just that in Dave's video it looks somewhat worse for me. You could end up searching for stuff, that isn't there.It would be a nice scope if the "whack-a-scope-issue" wouldn't be so bad. I wonder what R&S will do about it
I tried this "whack" on my Agilent MSO7104B and my MSOX6004A
Both have the same issue, may be not as severe as the R&S RTB but nevertheless it is there.
So, I would not worry too much about this.
And who really whack's their scope during measurements and when probes are installed?
so after reading some posts here my conclusion of the scope is:
It would be a nice scope if the "whack-a-scope-issue" wouldn't be so bad. I wonder what R&S will do about it
I can understand that Dave was making a video about it as
1) never has done that before and
2) with the teaser "shocking" in large letters, implying a sensation, it gives him a nice coverage and raising view-figures (=money).
But just the fact that it seems new for most people, it also shows, that it was not a problem in the past 20 years in any real world setup - because then we would have found out before.
I like many of Daves videos and they are often quite helpful. But here you should leave off the "shocking" and should have just made an educational video as usual.
My issue with the vid is simply that it didn't show the effect in real-life usage, with a probe connected, which makes a big difference.
Frequency analysis mode: Due to the high-performance FFT functionality of the R&S®RTB2000 oscilloscopes, signals can be analyzed with up to 128 kpoints.
Does the FFT really only use 128 kpoints? That's very low!
Note that the new Siglent SDS1000X-E series (based on Xilinx Zynq-7000 SoC architecture) uses 1Mpoints for FFT!
Also remember that any scope can do any number of FFT points you want if you export the data and analyse it externally.That is true for any signal analysis capability of a DSO. The whole point is that the more capabilities are inside an oscilloscope the more versatile it is. Needing to hook up a scope to a PC and running external software (which you probably have to pay extra for) is a nuisance and due to slow transfer rates the update rate may be much slower as well.
Also remember that any scope can do any number of FFT points you want if you export the data and analyse it externally.And this scope makes that.particularly easy with its USB mass storage mode, as you can immediately pull off a file of the waveform data from its virtual USB drive
My issue with the vid is simply that it didn't show the effect in real-life usage, with a probe connected, which makes a big difference.
Yes it can, but as I have stated and tested, I still get a relatively large impulse with a shorted x10 probe attached.
It could still be a potential issue for some people.
One big thing that R&S did achieve with the promo: hundreds of additional people, myself included, now know how to spell "Rohde and Schwarz" correctly. :)
One big thing that R&S did achieve with the promo: hundreds of additional people, myself included, now know how to spell "Rohde and Schwarz" correctly. :)
One big thing that R&S did achieve with the promo: hundreds of additional people, myself included, now know how to spell "Rohde and Schwarz" correctly. :)
Has anyone gotten a ship date from Tequipment earlier than May? It seems odd Test Equity has been shipping them out while Tequipment is still saying another month.
Has anyone gotten a ship date from Tequipment earlier than May? It seems odd Test Equity has been shipping them out while Tequipment is still saying another month.
Received my calcert from test one I ordered from testequity, and it was dated the 20th. Maybe they really haven't got a full production line running yet. Option cards in the box from 3/16 so it may really just be distributors ready to move them out but the units need to come in first.Or maybe they're having issues in cal/test causing delays.
Received my calcert from test one I ordered from testequity, and it was dated the 20th. Maybe they really haven't got a full production line running yet. Option cards in the box from 3/16 so it may really just be distributors ready to move them out but the units need to come in first.Or maybe they're having issues in cal/test causing delays.
Or maybe they're having issues in cal/test causing delays.
R&S released firmware update on March 14th. https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2004/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2004/)
Or maybe they're having issues in cal/test causing delays.Probably the newly introduced whack-the-scope test during final inspection, which they are still trying to automate... ;)
Or maybe they're having issues in cal/test causing delays.Probably the newly introduced whack-the-scope test during final inspection, which they are still trying to automate... ;)
Please tell me it involves monkeys, that would be so cool.
It must be a logistics issue, because Newark has started shipping last week when Tequipment estimated shipping date is April 28th.Received my calcert from test one I ordered from testequity, and it was dated the 20th. Maybe they really haven't got a full production line running yet. Option cards in the box from 3/16 so it may really just be distributors ready to move them out but the units need to come in first.Or maybe they're having issues in cal/test causing delays.
@agdr - doesn't the scope have the ability to save screen shots? If you used that facility we could see the entire trace and all of the scope parameters used during your testing.
@agdr - doesn't the scope have the ability to save screen shots? If you used that facility we could see the entire trace and all of the scope parameters used during your testing.
Crazy, Usually I get annoyed because my CC company declines a charge because they don't recognize who I'm buying from and I have to jump through hoops to get it processed. Today I get an email from Newark saying my order is processed, then about 15 minutes later another one saying it's on CC hold. The CC company had already approved the funds and is good to go. I call Newark to find out what's up they want to verify I'm really me because it's been a while since I've ordered from them WTH.... The only way the CC company will approve is if the billing address matches what I gave them.
Anyway, hope this gets cleared up quickly, already lost another shipping day.
Also - just a usage reminder - remember that pressing the vertical encoder knob goes from "coarse" to "fine" divisions which helps mitigate a bit that annoying thing Mike noted of the encoders having detents.
Crazy, Usually I get annoyed because my CC company declines a charge because they don't recognize who I'm buying from and I have to jump through hoops to get it processed. Today I get an email from Newark saying my order is processed, then about 15 minutes later another one saying it's on CC hold. The CC company had already approved the funds and is good to go. I call Newark to find out what's up they want to verify I'm really me because it's been a while since I've ordered from them WTH.... The only way the CC company will approve is if the billing address matches what I gave them.
Anyway, hope this gets cleared up quickly, already lost another shipping day.
@agdr - doesn't the scope have the ability to save screen shots? If you used that facility we could see the entire trace and all of the scope parameters used during your testing.
It should! I'll see if I can find it. There may be some ways to improve that high res mode too.
So now I've just switched the laptop over to Wifi, on a LAN access point, and I'm outside enjoying a coffee while changing my scope settings and viewing the signal. Life is good. 8)
For those who have had a chance to play with these now, is there a full screen mode where all the menus go away and the full screen is used for waveform display?
Joel
So here is ci11's test and... it works! :D Pretty darn amazing.
The first photo below shows the signal level. 492Vp-p = 246uV(peak) = 174uV(rms). This is coming from a Krohn-Hite KH4400B audio oscillator (95% similar to their current KH4402B), which specs at 0.0005% THD at 20Hz. The scope BW limit is set to 20MHz, although it really didn't make that much difference. Keep in mind that the oscillator's attenuation network is a series of resistors. Even though the THD is very low the oscillator is adding a pile of Johnson/thermal noise to the signal. So that is not all scope noise floor visible in the signal, there is some incoming noise at this tiny level. Just one 49K series resistor at 25C with the 100KHz bandwidth of the generator would add 9uV of noise.
The second photo shows the capture and trigger with the scope on high definition mode.
I've posted a bunch of additional photos (high res photos, I can only get two attached per post) on Google Drive here including unboxing, test setup, and averaging acquire mode. Averaging acquire mode was almost as good as high res, I'll post that next (2 photo limit).
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B67cJELZW-i8X294RF9XWFVkSDQ?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B67cJELZW-i8X294RF9XWFVkSDQ?usp=sharing)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=305114;image)
Do you have there some noise generator connected?
Where from this enormous noise?
Do you have there some noise generator connected?
Yep, see the post I just made above using Victor's oscillator (vastly lower noise than the KH4400B). The noise isn't coming from the KH RTB2004 scope, it is coming from the old audio oscillator. It is very low THD but not particularly low noise. Victor's is though, see above.
Now set 2mV/div, full BW, just real time raw running without high res, without averaging, without any kind of tricks what reject displayed noise. Say example 20kHz.
Image.
Do you have there some noise generator connected?
Yep, see the post I just made above using Victor's oscillator (vastly lower noise than the KH4400B). The noise isn't coming from the KH RTB2004 scope, it is coming from the old audio oscillator. It is very low THD but not particularly low noise. Victor's is though, see above.
Now set 2mV/div, full BW, just real time raw running without high res, without averaging, without any kind of tricks what reject displayed noise. Say example 20kHz.
Image.
Do you have there some noise generator connected?
Yep, see the post I just made above using Victor's oscillator (vastly lower noise than the KH4400B). The noise isn't coming from the KH RTB2004 scope, it is coming from the old audio oscillator. It is very low THD but not particularly low noise. Victor's is though, see above.
Now set 2mV/div, full BW, just real time raw running without high res, without averaging, without any kind of tricks what reject displayed noise. Say example 20kHz.
Image.
Using two totally different setups I'm not sure what's supposed to be achieved here.
Regarding noise, here are some tests with a BNC shorting cap on channel 1. Vertical all the way up at 1mV/div, 20us time base. The scope is set to measure the peak to peak voltage in the lower left corner.
The first two are normal acquisition mode, first on 20MHz BW limit and the second at full bandwidth. 270uVp-p and 900uVp-p respectively.
The next two are high definition acquisition, first on 20MHz BW limit and the final at full bandwidth. 138uVp-p and 152uVp-p respectively.
Now it looks better, nearly like Sigl. (meaningful is full BW 1mV/div raw realtime mode without any "cleaning" functions on.)
Bog standard SDS1kX.Now it looks better, nearly like Sigl. (meaningful is full BW 1mV/div raw realtime mode without any "cleaning" functions on.)
Which Siglent model(s) are you comparing to?
Would you have any data? (Maybe they are already posted on a Siglent thread somewhere, but I can't recall.)
Thanks!
If you have lots of channels , decodes etc. going, the bottom menu can grow by another line.For those who have had a chance to play with these now, is there a full screen mode where all the menus go away and the full screen is used for waveform display?
Joel
No, the top and bottom menus are always visible.
The thing about the detents is that they prevent decent velocity sensing. Not a big deal for vert/horiz, but a pain for the general purpose adjust knob, e.g. adjusting holdoff , pulse trig width etc.Also - just a usage reminder - remember that pressing the vertical encoder knob goes from "coarse" to "fine" divisions which helps mitigate a bit that annoying thing Mike noted of the encoders having detents.
Having detents or not does not matter at all. These are rotary encodes, which have discrete output by design. I would rather complain that R&S skimped on the encoders, but with coarse resolution dials having detents is actually helpful, because it gives some feedback on adjustments.
The thing about the detents is that they prevent decent velocity sensing. Not a big deal for vert/horiz, but a pain for the general purpose adjust knob, e.g. adjusting holdoff , pulse trig width etc.Also - just a usage reminder - remember that pressing the vertical encoder knob goes from "coarse" to "fine" divisions which helps mitigate a bit that annoying thing Mike noted of the encoders having detents.
Having detents or not does not matter at all. These are rotary encodes, which have discrete output by design. I would rather complain that R&S skimped on the encoders, but with coarse resolution dials having detents is actually helpful, because it gives some feedback on adjustments.
Just for compare, (previous detail image from R&S @agdr
Same settings (afaik)
Around same ballpark (note BW diffeerence R&S 300MHz / Sig measured BW around 200MHz, nameplate BW 100MHz)
The touchscreen is what stops this being a serious issue as you can type values in,but there are times when it gets annoying. There is some velocity sensing but I think it's basically 2 'gears' and only barely useful.The thing about the detents is that they prevent decent velocity sensing. Not a big deal for vert/horiz, but a pain for the general purpose adjust knob, e.g. adjusting holdoff , pulse trig width etc.Also - just a usage reminder - remember that pressing the vertical encoder knob goes from "coarse" to "fine" divisions which helps mitigate a bit that annoying thing Mike noted of the encoders having detents.
Having detents or not does not matter at all. These are rotary encodes, which have discrete output by design. I would rather complain that R&S skimped on the encoders, but with coarse resolution dials having detents is actually helpful, because it gives some feedback on adjustments.
When you first mentioned the detented knobs I thought I wouldn't care. I do understand where you're coming from though after having used it for 20-30 hours.
The thing about the detents is that they prevent decent velocity sensing. Not a big deal for vert/horiz, but a pain for the general purpose adjust knob, e.g. adjusting holdoff , pulse trig width etc.
It is not just about comparisons at the higher sensitivity settings (which are not often used anyway) but even at lower sensitivity setting a scope may make a signal look way too woollie to be usefull. A high update rate is less desireable for a close look at a signal because each sweep adds more noise.Just for compare, (previous detail image from R&S @agdrNoise comparisons have to use the same analog bandwidth, same memory depth, same sample rate, and same update rate, otherwise they are not apples-apples.
Same settings (afaik)
Around same ballpark (note BW diffeerence R&S 300MHz / Sig measured BW around 200MHz, nameplate BW 100MHz)
Bog standard SDS1kX.Now it looks better, nearly like Sigl. (meaningful is full BW 1mV/div raw realtime mode without any "cleaning" functions on.)
Which Siglent model(s) are you comparing to?
Would you have any data? (Maybe they are already posted on a Siglent thread somewhere, but I can't recall.)
Thanks!
When I saw Mikes vid I thought R&S might have done better than Siglent's best selling model but no.
I'd put some shots up but I'm out of stock, anyway there's plenty of examples in the SDS1000X thread.
Yes indeed. That's why there is a user control called 'trigger holdoff' to reduce the maximum update rate. But it's nice to have the fast update available when it's needed.It is not just about comparisons at the higher sensitivity settings (which are not often used anyway) but even at lower sensitivity setting a scope may make a signal look way too woollie to be usefull. A high update rate is less desireable for a close look at a signal because each sweep adds more noise.Just for compare, (previous detail image from R&S @agdrNoise comparisons have to use the same analog bandwidth, same memory depth, same sample rate, and same update rate, otherwise they are not apples-apples.
Same settings (afaik)
Around same ballpark (note BW diffeerence R&S 300MHz / Sig measured BW around 200MHz, nameplate BW 100MHz)
Bog standard SDS1kX.Now it looks better, nearly like Sigl. (meaningful is full BW 1mV/div raw realtime mode without any "cleaning" functions on.)
Which Siglent model(s) are you comparing to?
Would you have any data? (Maybe they are already posted on a Siglent thread somewhere, but I can't recall.)
Thanks!
When I saw Mikes vid I thought R&S might have done better than Siglent's best selling model but no.
I'd put some shots up but I'm out of stock, anyway there's plenty of examples in the SDS1000X thread.
I am a little bit unhappy with foggy sales comments like this. Do you really think this is good for your business? Or does Siglent think so?
Also, rf-loop really needs a Siglent distributor disclaimer in his sig. Just saying...
I placed an order with Newark on 3/30 and got confirmation and a ship date of 4/3 (and my card was charged). Now I see the charge has disappeared from my card and no sign of shipping info (and the order won't pull up by order #).Maybe they tried to contact you to get additional information about the credit card and they did not get a reply on time. Newark system is a mess, their online and offline ordering systems are disconnected with manual re-entry of orders, multiple databases with different pricing and availability. The order number is 8 digits. Any other number is preliminary (they call it PO number) and pretty much useless. Until you receive the order confirmation email and get assigned an ORDER number, your purchase is not confirmed.
The page I ordered from now has the unit listed in stock but for about $8k. It is looking more and more like they are canceling orders and gaming the system... R&S's reputation is may well be damaged by their distributors.
Thanks for all the business.
To anyone international who ordered from us that we canceled. We appreciate the business but cannot export RS.
The promotion caused a lot of concern over export. We currently are sold out of the 60 units have have coming in.
Thanks for all the business.
To anyone international who ordered from us that we canceled. We appreciate the business but cannot export RS.
The promotion caused a lot of concern over export. We currently are sold out of the 60 units have have coming in.
Have you shipped any units yet? Does R&S like Newark better than you :)
Yes indeed. That's why there is a user control called 'trigger holdoff' to reduce the maximum update rate. But it's nice to have the fast update available when it's needed.
We currently are sold out of the 60 units have have coming in.thanks for info. Do you know approx date when the scopes will arrive and when you will be able to start shipping them?
So annoying European distributors do not care at all offering something closer to the US offer, i suppose most of the people in europe would be happy with just the 2channel model with a couple of options with a brave discount.I think the mistake they've made is pricing the options relative to a 300MHz scope, not the 70MHz base model.
And 700 euros plus vat just for enabling the generator? This is absurd
I am wondering if anybody here really received his scope from Newark or at least got a tracking #?
I am wondering if anybody here really received his scope from Newark or at least got a tracking #?
It looks like they are taking orders, charging the credit card and then (sometimes silently) just canceling the order either without any reason or under a pretext ... what a shabby behavior of Newark :--
I am wondering if anybody here really received his scope from Newark or at least got a tracking #?
It looks like they are taking orders, charging the credit card and then (sometimes silently) just canceling the order either without any reason or under a pretext ... what a shabby behavior of Newark :--
Ordered mine Friday, finally got shipped and have tracking number today.
So here is ci11's test and... it works! :D Pretty darn amazing.
The first photo below shows the signal level. 492Vp-p = 246uV(peak) = 174uV(rms). This is coming from a Krohn-Hite KH4400B audio oscillator (95% similar to their current KH4402B), which specs at 0.0005% THD at 20Hz. The scope BW limit is set to 20MHz, although it really didn't make that much difference. Keep in mind that the oscillator's attenuation network is a series of resistors. Even though the THD is very low the oscillator is adding a pile of Johnson/thermal noise to the signal. So that is not all scope noise floor visible in the signal, there is some incoming noise at this tiny level. Just one 49K series resistor at 25C with the 100KHz bandwidth of the generator would add 9uV of noise.
The second photo shows the capture and trigger with the scope on high definition mode.
I've posted a bunch of additional photos (high res photos, I can only get two attached per post) on Google Drive here including unboxing, test setup, and averaging acquire mode. Averaging acquire mode was almost as good as high res, I'll post that next (2 photo limit).
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B67cJELZW-i8X294RF9XWFVkSDQ?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B67cJELZW-i8X294RF9XWFVkSDQ?usp=sharing)
Thanks, AGDR! Looks great - I am eagerly waiting to try the test myself very soon!
FYI - 1audio has posted his mod findings and parts list on the KH 4400A on the DIYAudio forum and I'm ordering parts now.
From here:
http://www.pbs.org/parents/education/going-to-school/grade-by-grade/fourth/ (http://www.pbs.org/parents/education/going-to-school/grade-by-grade/fourth/)
"Fourth graders read, write, compare, add, subtract, multiply, and divide with very large whole numbers. They do more equations with fractions and decimals...". See the attached screenshot. :palm:
One of my few big complaints about the scope.
Looks like there is a new video (or at least YouTube just recommended it to me). Unfortunately in Portuguese again:
https://youtu.be/ZNDdfAcP2xc
Looks like there is a new video (or at least YouTube just recommended it to me). Unfortunately in Portuguese again:
https://youtu.be/ZNDdfAcP2xc (https://youtu.be/ZNDdfAcP2xc)
He basically explains that the more acquistion memory the better and why, using a CAN decoding example.
Just had a look at history/segmented mode :
Just had a look at history/segmented mode :
Just had a look at history/segmented mode :Some Keysight scopes can be made to do circular buffering (like a history mode) if you enable the circular segmented recording option (which isn't official). Other than that the way segmented recording and selecting memory lengths are implemented in the RTB2000 is quite standard compared to other DSOs (except Keysight).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0xZXMHKlJY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0xZXMHKlJY)
At $6k it is still $4k more expensive compared to the GW Instek MSO2000AE which has a similar feature set (some pros & cons compared to RTB2000). I'm not sure if a bigger screen, 10bit ADCs and deeper segmented memory are worth $4k though.
People have been saying "$8k scope" a lot and that's not really true because if someone were to buy the fully loaded package they wouldn't pay for options individually, they'd get the all the decodes / wavegen / segmented memory in the option pack instead ($1260). So the full retail price is actually US$6025 without any discounts.
Did you get the 300 MHz R&S ?
It's going to take a long time to really feel comfortable with all of the features in this scope, but I already like it better than my Siglent SDS2304X because of the touchscreen and better button/knob layout.
*Brian
Just had a look at history/segmented mode : ....Some Keysight scopes can be made to do circular buffering (like a history mode) if you enable the circular segmented recording option (which isn't official). Other than that the way segmented recording and selecting memory lengths are implemented in the RTB2000 is quite standard compared to other DSOs (except Keysight).
It is a software option on the older DSO3000/6000/7000 models but it is not like a typical history mode which keeps old acquisitions. You have to go into segmented recording mode and just as Miked showed in the video you won't see any signals on a Keysight scope until you press the stop button. Edit: the latter can be a major nuisance because only after stopping & looking you can check whether the samplerate is still high enough for the protocol decoding to work properly.Can you tell how to get the circular segmented recording option without changing option-id-resistors or being sued/shot by Keysight?Just had a look at history/segmented mode : ....Some Keysight scopes can be made to do circular buffering (like a history mode) if you enable the circular segmented recording option (which isn't official). Other than that the way segmented recording and selecting memory lengths are implemented in the RTB2000 is quite standard compared to other DSOs (except Keysight).
Cause its a very nice feature to have a permanent history available. In many cases you´ll may see a glitch or infrequent event ..
I also received mine today, and have played with it for about 10 minutes. First impressions:
It's going to take a long time to really feel comfortable with all of the features in this scope, but I already like it better than my Siglent SDS2304X because of the touchscreen and better button/knob layout.
*Brian
Has anyone been able to try the data (waveform data) capture functionality yet?
I'm mainly interested in how fast the transfer is over e.g. the LAN interface.
Has anyone been able to try the data (waveform data) capture functionality yet?
I'm mainly interested in how fast the transfer is over e.g. the LAN interface.
Not knowing much about it, do you have a way to test this out that I could try for you? I have the scope's webpage up (which is really, really nice and very, very fast) but I don't see anything about transferring waveform data on the webpage anywhere.
OK, got it. So I set CH1 to take up all 20 Msamples of memory, did a trigger, then went to the save/recall page, and downloaded the entire 206MB text file. I'm only on 100 Mb Ethernet here, and it took about 200 seconds. (about 1MB/s) This was using Chrome.
OK, got it. So I set CH1 to take up all 20 Msamples of memory, did a trigger, then went to the save/recall page, and downloaded the entire 206MB text file. I'm only on 100 Mb Ethernet here, and it took about 200 seconds. (about 1MB/s) This was using Chrome.
I'll hook the scope directly to my PC, which is Gb Ethernet, tomorrow, and repeat the experiment.
So that is 12.8Mbits/s.OK, got it. So I set CH1 to take up all 20 Msamples of memory, did a trigger, then went to the save/recall page, and downloaded the entire 206MB text file. I'm only on 100 Mb Ethernet here, and it took about 200 seconds. (about 1MB/s) This was using Chrome.
I'll hook the scope directly to my PC, which is Gb Ethernet, tomorrow, and repeat the experiment.
I played around a bit with the SCPI commands documented in the manual; over ethernet, the scope accepts SCPI commands on port 5025.
I used netcat on a Linux machine to pull the whole segment acquisition memory for a channel in REAL format:
echo -e "FORM REAL\nCHAN1:DATA:POIN MAX\nCHAN1:DATA?" | nc -q -1 192.168.200.60 5025 > out.bin
(scope is on address 192.168.200.60)
With the acquisition record length set to 10MSa, the resulting out.bin file is 40MB and transferred in about 25 sec. I'm connected with 1Gbps ethernet.
So that is 12.8Mbits/s.
So that is 12.8Mbits/s.
I don't know how efficient netcat is, though. Might have to write a small C program to find out where the bottleneck lies.
So that is 12.8Mbits/s.
I don't know how efficient netcat is, though. Might have to write a small C program to find out where the bottleneck lies.
Thank you very much for your tests. After ASCII and real: Could the real conversion be the bottleneck here? I remember that these embedded devices are better with integer than with real. But depends on the mcu.
Format | Data amount | Data rate |
UINT8 | 20MByte | 12.3MBits/s |
UINT16 | 40MByte | 12.8MBits/s |
REAL | 80MByte | 12.5MBits/s |
I think it may be faster and/or more convenient to transfer data using the USB MTP mode - you can just drag files out of the folder in various formatsOK, got it. So I set CH1 to take up all 20 Msamples of memory, did a trigger, then went to the save/recall page, and downloaded the entire 206MB text file. I'm only on 100 Mb Ethernet here, and it took about 200 seconds. (about 1MB/s) This was using Chrome.
Does the web browser interface also let you save the waveform data in REAL and UINT 8, 16, 32 binary data formats? The formats are described in section 9.8.1 Transfer of Waveform Data in the User Manual. For the same waveform data are the binary formats smaller and faster to transfer than the ASCII format?
I think it may be faster and/or more convenient to transfer data using the USB MTP mode - you can just drag files out of the folder in various formatsOK, got it. So I set CH1 to take up all 20 Msamples of memory, did a trigger, then went to the save/recall page, and downloaded the entire 206MB text file. I'm only on 100 Mb Ethernet here, and it took about 200 seconds. (about 1MB/s) This was using Chrome.
Does the web browser interface also let you save the waveform data in REAL and UINT 8, 16, 32 binary data formats? The formats are described in section 9.8.1 Transfer of Waveform Data in the User Manual. For the same waveform data are the binary formats smaller and faster to transfer than the ASCII format?
Quick test shows about 8MBytes/sec exporting binary trace data via USB MTPI think it may be faster and/or more convenient to transfer data using the USB MTP mode - you can just drag files out of the folder in various formatsOK, got it. So I set CH1 to take up all 20 Msamples of memory, did a trigger, then went to the save/recall page, and downloaded the entire 206MB text file. I'm only on 100 Mb Ethernet here, and it took about 200 seconds. (about 1MB/s) This was using Chrome.
Does the web browser interface also let you save the waveform data in REAL and UINT 8, 16, 32 binary data formats? The formats are described in section 9.8.1 Transfer of Waveform Data in the User Manual. For the same waveform data are the binary formats smaller and faster to transfer than the ASCII format?
I tried the USB-TMC Connection ... and get about 13-15MBit/sec on my PC.
I tried the same on my GW Instek. It needs 5 seconds to transfer 10Mpts in 16 bits format (approx 20MB of data) so that is around 30Mbit/s.OK, got it. So I set CH1 to take up all 20 Msamples of memory, did a trigger, then went to the save/recall page, and downloaded the entire 206MB text file. I'm only on 100 Mb Ethernet here, and it took about 200 seconds. (about 1MB/s) This was using Chrome.
I'll hook the scope directly to my PC, which is Gb Ethernet, tomorrow, and repeat the experiment.
I played around a bit with the SCPI commands documented in the manual; over ethernet, the scope accepts SCPI commands on port 5025.
I used netcat on a Linux machine to pull the whole segment acquisition memory for a channel in REAL format:
echo -e "FORM REAL\nCHAN1:DATA:POIN MAX\nCHAN1:DATA?" | nc -q -1 192.168.200.60 5025 > out.bin
(scope is on address 192.168.200.60)
For anyone who has one of these scopes - have you tried running the probe comp app? When I run mine on CH1, I can't get it to work - it says either the signal was not detected, or the amplitude was not high enough.Do you have probes switched to x1 ?
When I run it on CH2, 3 or 4, I don't get any errors, but no matter how I turn the three adjustments on the probe, the signal never looks close to square - it's very rounded. I feel like I'm missing some important step here. (Yes, I did connect the probe to the ground pin and the P0 pin of the pattern gen)
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I did a factory reset, and now CH1 is not giving me errors. However, I'm still not able to get a square shape with any of the probes that came with the unit.
For anyone who has one of these scopes - have you tried running the probe comp app? When I run mine on CH1, I can't get it to work - it says either the signal was not detected, or the amplitude was not high enough.Do you have probes switched to x1 ?
When I run it on CH2, 3 or 4, I don't get any errors, but no matter how I turn the three adjustments on the probe, the signal never looks close to square - it's very rounded. I feel like I'm missing some important step here. (Yes, I did connect the probe to the ground pin and the P0 pin of the pattern gen)
=====
I did a factory reset, and now CH1 is not giving me errors. However, I'm still not able to get a square shape with any of the probes that came with the unit.
Yes, also look at what the probe settings wereFor anyone who has one of these scopes - have you tried running the probe comp app? When I run mine on CH1, I can't get it to work - it says either the signal was not detected, or the amplitude was not high enough.Do you have probes switched to x1 ?
When I run it on CH2, 3 or 4, I don't get any errors, but no matter how I turn the three adjustments on the probe, the signal never looks close to square - it's very rounded. I feel like I'm missing some important step here. (Yes, I did connect the probe to the ground pin and the P0 pin of the pattern gen)
=====
I did a factory reset, and now CH1 is not giving me errors. However, I'm still not able to get a square shape with any of the probes that came with the unit.
Uh, yup. Thanks Mike. That was my problem. In 10x the prob comp process worked just fine - all good now!
You would think they could have had that as a text 'hint' in the steps that walk you through the process.
Also, if the colors of each channel are fixed, why not put color printing next to each channel's BNC so that it's clear which probe to plug in where without having to turn on the channel to see it's little button light up with its color. Hmm.Cost. And you should have put the colour rings on the probe lead. (would be nice if these were actually the right colours)
Cost. And you should have put the colour rings on the probe lead. (would be nice if these were actually the right colours)
Can you tell how to get the circular segmented recording option without changing option-id-resistors or being sued/shot by Keysight?It is/was available on the X2000 and X3000 series via the license hack as option SGMC. You can read about it in the hack thread, starting around here:
what is it the meter widget from the menu?
someone has a screen?
what is it the meter widget from the menu?
someone has a screen?
You can add a little volt meter window (which you can move around the screen) to each channel. It can display DC, AC RMS, or DC + AC RMS volts. See this screenshot.
YouTube seems to be very concerned that I miss new videos about my new baby. I somewhat have the impression I saw them before but according to YouTube they are new:
no ... unless you buy one :popcorn:YouTube seems to be very concerned that I miss new videos about my new baby. I somewhat have the impression I saw them before but according to YouTube they are new:
Please please please stop! :-)
Newark site shows $7920 for the RTB2K-COM4 bundle and stock level is going down consistently (only 6 in stock now)
Are people really buying it at full price?
Are people really buying it at full price?While not impossible I think it's safe to say no.
EDIT: I guess actually 4 pools, since I think the MSO is a physical option?
Another minor issue I noticed: If you have more than one web browser connected to the scope's remote front panel page, one or more of the browser's screen updates may get corrupted or take a long time to update - i.e. not follow the 'real' screen in real time. With only one browser connected, this problem is not seen.
Yes - the only thing I'd expect is for it to not crash the scope, though it would be nice if it just bounced the second connection with an "I'm busy" message.Another minor issue I noticed: If you have more than one web browser connected to the scope's remote front panel page, one or more of the browser's screen updates may get corrupted or take a long time to update - i.e. not follow the 'real' screen in real time. With only one browser connected, this problem is not seen.
I would say that was to be expected.
Yes - the only thing I'd expect is for it to not crash the scope, though it would be nice if it just bounced the second connection with an "I'm busy" message.Another minor issue I noticed: If you have more than one web browser connected to the scope's remote front panel page, one or more of the browser's screen updates may get corrupted or take a long time to update - i.e. not follow the 'real' screen in real time. With only one browser connected, this problem is not seen.
I would say that was to be expected.
Quick question - when adjusting the trigger, there is a solid yellow line at the actual trigger level, and then there's a dashed yellow line a little ways below the trigger level that moves with the trigger.It shows the hysteresis - when you change slope it changes to being above the solid line, and in dual slope mode you get 2 dashed lines.
What's the dashed line mean?
Dang, I would have left work and raced home to get it inside ( I'm pretty free to do that kind of thing ). My worry is last time a package was late, the box was destroyed. Fortunately the contents were OK. Buying this scope has just been one headache after another. Hope all is good in the end.Hah, I'm 3,500 miles away right now in London so can't just pop over from work; sent to friend's place, will be over to pick it up at the end of the month. Just got word that it showed up, so all is indeed good! The 3 week wait will be painful, but the >$1k I saved is worth it (it paid for 2 return flights for a long weekend in NYC).
I really like the functionality of the scope but I hate the glossy display :-- :-- :--. Why the hell did they do that ? :palm:
Anti-glare screen protector makes a huge difference to screen shininess - time will tell how durable it is but at £2.49 for two it's hardly a big deal if it needs replacing every so often.
I used this one, cut down
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191778503815?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191778503815?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
I really like the functionality of the scope but I hate the glossy display :-- :-- :--. Why the hell did they do that ? :palm:
Played around a bit with remote commands today on my box and found a neat way to find out the right command I wanted to share with you.
Historically if I needed a remote command I digged through the manual, which by the way seems to be still growing for the RTB2000? (at least every time I open it I have a new chapter :o ??)
Instead for the RTB2000 I use this awesome USB connection and just copy the setting file (setup) directly after preset and take a second one after setting all settings. Doing a quick compare using KDIFF3 (or any other comparison app) and I have all the remote commands I need 8)
Never got this so easy. That's a big :-+ R&S!
Serious question: why do you test at 300MHz scope at 900MHz and 1GHz?
Serious question: why do you test at 300MHz scope at 900MHz and 1GHz?
So, I still haven't found automatic screen blanking, does it exist?If you mean a screensaver, I don't think there is one - I've certainly not seen it.
So, I still haven't found automatic screen blanking, does it exist?If you mean a screensaver, I don't think there is one - I've certainly not seen it.
But why would you want it ? LCDs don't burn in to any noticeable degree.
Being colorblind I have a hard time telling CH1 from CH2 in my Agilent DSO-X3012A, which are Green and Yellow (I can't tell you which is which...). It would be fantastic to have yellow and blue for example, but it can't be adjusted.They can't be changed, though there are a couple of "rainbow" colour modes, which you might be able to use on one trace to differentiate it.
I have been unable to find a reference to this on the RTB2000 manual. Can someone confirm if the colors can actually be changed? That would be a great selling point for us colorblinds....
Thank you,
Roberto
Being colorblind I have a hard time telling CH1 from CH2 in my Agilent DSO-X3012A, which are Green and Yellow (I can't tell you which is which...). It would be fantastic to have yellow and blue for example, but it can't be adjusted.Oh yeah. I have the same problem. And as EVERY 20th male is effected, I am wondering for years why nobody ever had the idea of allowing a user defined color for each channel (even a selection list with just 16 entries would be fine). A scope with such a feature would have indeed a BIG USP!!!
I have been unable to find a reference to this on the RTB2000 manual. Can someone confirm if the colors can actually be changed? That would be a great selling point for us colorblinds....
Thank you,
Roberto
Tektronix was ahead then with their TDS500/600/700 series. These allow to set/change all colors for the traces, user interface and hardcopy output.Being colorblind I have a hard time telling CH1 from CH2 in my Agilent DSO-X3012A, which are Green and Yellow (I can't tell you which is which...). It would be fantastic to have yellow and blue for example, but it can't be adjusted.Oh yeah. I have the same problem. And as EVERY 20th male is effected, I am wondering for years why nobody ever had the idea of allowing a user defined color for each channel (even a selection list with just 16 entries would be fine). A scope with such a feature would have indeed a BIG USP!!!
I have been unable to find a reference to this on the RTB2000 manual. Can someone confirm if the colors can actually be changed? That would be a great selling point for us colorblinds....
Thank you,
Roberto
Being colorblind I have a hard time telling CH1 from CH2 in my Agilent DSO-X3012A, which are Green and Yellow (I can't tell you which is which...). It would be fantastic to have yellow and blue for example, but it can't be adjusted.
A scope with such a feature would have indeed a BIG USP!!!
Tektronix was ahead then with their TDS500/600/700 series. These allow to set/change all colors for the traces, user interface and hardcopy output.Being colorblind I have a hard time telling CH1 from CH2 in my Agilent DSO-X3012A, which are Green and Yellow (I can't tell you which is which...). It would be fantastic to have yellow and blue for example, but it can't be adjusted.Oh yeah. I have the same problem. And as EVERY 20th male is effected, I am wondering for years why nobody ever had the idea of allowing a user defined color for each channel (even a selection list with just 16 entries would be fine). A scope with such a feature would have indeed a BIG USP!!!
I have been unable to find a reference to this on the RTB2000 manual. Can someone confirm if the colors can actually be changed? That would be a great selling point for us colorblinds....
Thank you,
Roberto
Being colorblind I have a hard time telling CH1 from CH2 in my Agilent DSO-X3012A, which are Green and Yellow (I can't tell you which is which...). It would be fantastic to have yellow and blue for example, but it can't be adjusted.Well, for the correct use of these 4 channel scopes which share (interleave,bond,etc) the adjacent channels you would use channels 1 and 3 (or 2 and 4) when only using 2 channels to maximise the memory depth and sampling rate. This is common across these R&S scopes and from the other majors Tek, Keysight, Lecroy etc
Oh yeah. I have the same problem. And as EVERY 20th male is effected, I am wondering for years why nobody ever had the idea of allowing a user defined color for each channel (even a selection list with just 16 entries would be fine). A scope with such a feature would have indeed a BIG USP!!!For colorblind people, would it work if instead of using different colors for the traces the scope would use different 'pen styles', like continuous line, dotted, dashed, etc. ?
Oh yeah. I have the same problem. And as EVERY 20th male is effected, I am wondering for years why nobody ever had the idea of allowing a user defined color for each channel (even a selection list with just 16 entries would be fine). A scope with such a feature would have indeed a BIG USP!!!For colorblind people, would it work if instead of using different colors for the traces the scope would use different 'pen styles', like continuous line, dotted, dashed, etc. ?
That would be useful also for non-colorblind people with screen hard-copies on colorblind b/w printers.
BTW ... on references R&S offers of full set of colors for each reference waveform.:-+ OH - so they would just need to add this for every channel. Maybe there is a scope god......
'Pure' colors like yellow / green / cyan are often used cause of their higher contrast to a black background.Not for inverted imagery like on a PC screen. (white background)
And the color sensitivity to the human eye ... so a pure blue waveforn would be stupid.
'Pure' colors like yellow / green / cyan are often used cause of their higher contrast to a black background.Not for inverted imagery like on a PC screen. (white background)
And the color sensitivity to the human eye ... so a pure blue waveforn would be stupid.
The RTB2004 is definitely a beautiful scope, but way out of my budget! I do however like the HMO1002, and have messaged the local R&S distributor begging for a discount or package deal ;D (The logic probe for it is "#¤%/ $445 USD!)The DSOX1102G has only 1 digital input (shared with External Trigger Input)
Anyone had a play with the HMO1002? How does it compare to the DSOX1102G? They are the same price here. Damn it's hard deciding on a new scope these days :-\
How does this scope handle SPI decodes ? Does it use the whole acquisition memory or just what is being displayed on the screen ? Can you search through the captured record for a certain byte pattern ?You can zoom in an decode anything in the acquisition memory, as well as showing a simultaneous full/zoomed view.
Another thing these scopes got right was to allow the trigger to be set at 10% and 90% screen locations instead of the default 50% ;)
Being colorblind I have a hard time telling CH1 from CH2 in my Agilent DSO-X3012A, which are Green and Yellow (I can't tell you which is which...). It would be fantastic to have yellow and blue for example, but it can't be adjusted.
Will you be able to pick 4 colors that you can easily tell apart from each other?
Looking at the updated manual (P152), it only explicitly mentions search in conjunction with CAN and LIN trigger.How does this scope handle SPI decodes ? Does it use the whole acquisition memory or just what is being displayed on the screen ? Can you search through the captured record for a certain byte pattern ?You can zoom in an decode anything in the acquisition memory, as well as showing a simultaneous full/zoomed view.
There is a "Protocol" entry in the "search type " manu but it's greyed out - according to help this should be able to search for trigger events but AFAICS it doesn't appear to work (tried with UART trigger)
How does this scope handle SPI decodes ? Does it use the whole acquisition memory or just what is being displayed on the screen ? Can you search through the captured record for a certain byte pattern ?You can zoom in an decode anything in the acquisition memory, as well as showing a simultaneous full/zoomed view.
There is a "Protocol" entry in the "search type " manu but it's greyed out - according to help this should be able to search for trigger events but AFAICS it doesn't appear to work (tried with UART trigger)
And if you start measuring wfm/s, include also different memory depths. Also segmented memory / history on vs. off - if it can be turned off?
In case anyone is still looking, Alliedelec shows 2 promos in stock.
This one also looks interesting
http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261 (http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261)
Seems like somebody got a nUS package and now sells it on eBay? And he is shipping worldwide! I was anyhow wondering why not more people grasped this opportunity. At least back then, when I bought mine, nobody offered this.
It's essentially an abitrage business. And I guess if I happened to live in the US I would have gone for it as well.
Still, I like your sports metaphor. I'm just picturing a guy having the osciloscope below his cloak standing in front of a stadium...
This one also looks interestingThis was pretty much predictable. More or less the same with the Keysight scope giveaways. Interesting to see though how much it will fetch. It won't be the last turning up on Ebay for sure.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261 (http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261)
Has anyone picked up the front cover for these scopes? any impressions? When not using the scope, it's pushed back on my desk, but seems it would be nice to not worry about punching the face of the scope when doing other things.
This one also looks interestingThis was pretty much predictable. More or less the same with the Keysight scope giveaways. Interesting to see though how much it will fetch. It won't be the last turning up on Ebay for sure.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261 (http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261)
The answer is US $3,250This one also looks interestingThis was pretty much predictable. More or less the same with the Keysight scope giveaways. Interesting to see though how much it will fetch. It won't be the last turning up on Ebay for sure.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261 (http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261)
After eBay, PayPal, and shipping costs to the seller that is still a very nice profit. At least 3 bidders were willing to go $3,000 or more. Of course if more listings show up on eBay the price might quickly drop.
This one also looks interesting
http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261 (http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261)
Seems like somebody got a nUS package and now sells it on eBay? And he is shipping worldwide! I was anyhow wondering why not more people grasped this opportunity. At least back then, when I bought mine, nobody offered this.
That's a bit cheeky of them. In Australia that sort of thing is called scalping and typically happens with football tickets to the grand finals.
Some photos of RTB2000 can be seen here. https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipORowip50d0SIq26g0MoEzFVsTgVzNOSNdIfmpnJGQBGxmgobQva7xiLUPnVpOzMA?key=VFljbVQ0aEVGdENwTV9sMmotV3g3cmx3SWNOS2dR
-The whole scope is quite lightweight. When I tried to push the multipurpose knob, the scope was sliding on the table!The feet could be stickier - as mine is on a shelf, I have it tilted down, so it's not far from its balance point- some extra weight would be useful, though the light weight is better for transport.
-No VGA or DVI monitor output and probably no plug-in module available.You don't really need it with the fast networking - more flexible as you can use any PC etc. for a display. If you really wanted a dedicated port you could probably use a RasPi.
-No GPIB interface. :-)Does anyone still use that ?
-No inside storage space. :-)definitely a missed opportunity
-The whole scope is quite lightweight. When I tried to push the multipurpose knob, the scope was sliding on the table!
-No inside storage space. :-)
-No inside storage space. :-)There is about >300MB user space available on delivery. Whats the matter to plug in a thumb drive? .
I think they wanted a compartment to store probes on back.Yes.
Dr.Diesel, I also saw a charge from TEq on my cc recently. Expected ship date hasn't changed though. It could just be a periodic authorization charge to make sure funds are still available for pending orders. I saw in the faq somewhere those auths usually disappear in a few days.I also got charged by TEq for the scope, and the expected shipping date moved from May 3 to May 5 :(
Anyone find any sources for the promo as of today?
Thanks
The US launch promo was a pretty incredible deal. Hard to pass up for sure.It was so hard to pass up that I'm flying over to pick up the one I ordered :p
Thanks to mikeselectricstuff for pointing out this deal on YoutTube. I now have a massive upgrade from my 9 year old TDS2024B.
Can't imagine an issue with what is obviously a new, manufactured product ( other than overall size), but nothing is certain. Shielding is aluminium so should x-ray pretty well.The US launch promo was a pretty incredible deal. Hard to pass up for sure.It was so hard to pass up that I'm flying over to pick up the one I ordered :p
Thanks to mikeselectricstuff for pointing out this deal on YoutTube. I now have a massive upgrade from my 9 year old TDS2024B.
(GF wanted to visit the States anyway, though she doesn't know what I'll be taking home with us!)
The deep memory should be an especially welcome upgrade over the tek, 2.5k is very limiting for some stuff. As for me I've already got a couple of options with deep memory, but nothing that samples quite fast enough or has a nice UI so am also looking forward to the upgrade.
A quick query for those familiar with the TSA - am I likely to run into any issues flying out from the US with a scope in hand luggage? Have travelled with weirder things elsewhere, but don't have much experience of the US.
Also would be interested in any comments about how protected the front panel is - does the packaging come with anything other than foam to protect the front, or am I better off ordering the cover?
The US launch promo was a pretty incredible deal. Hard to pass up for sure.It was so hard to pass up that I'm flying over to pick up the one I ordered :p
Thanks to mikeselectricstuff for pointing out this deal on YoutTube. I now have a massive upgrade from my 9 year old TDS2024B.
(GF wanted to visit the States anyway, though she doesn't know what I'll be taking home with us!)
The deep memory should be an especially welcome upgrade over the tek, 2.5k is very limiting for some stuff. As for me I've already got a couple of options with deep memory, but nothing that samples quite fast enough or has a nice UI so am also looking forward to the upgrade.
A quick query for those familiar with the TSA - am I likely to run into any issues flying out from the US with a scope in hand luggage? Have travelled with weirder things elsewhere, but don't have much experience of the US.
Also would be interested in any comments about how protected the front panel is - does the packaging come with anything other than foam to protect the front, or am I better off ordering the cover?
That was my thought as well - as you're shipping it youself, you can decide what customs value you think is appropriate ;)The US launch promo was a pretty incredible deal. Hard to pass up for sure.It was so hard to pass up that I'm flying over to pick up the one I ordered :p
Thanks to mikeselectricstuff for pointing out this deal on YoutTube. I now have a massive upgrade from my 9 year old TDS2024B.
(GF wanted to visit the States anyway, though she doesn't know what I'll be taking home with us!)
The deep memory should be an especially welcome upgrade over the tek, 2.5k is very limiting for some stuff. As for me I've already got a couple of options with deep memory, but nothing that samples quite fast enough or has a nice UI so am also looking forward to the upgrade.
A quick query for those familiar with the TSA - am I likely to run into any issues flying out from the US with a scope in hand luggage? Have travelled with weirder things elsewhere, but don't have much experience of the US.
Also would be interested in any comments about how protected the front panel is - does the packaging come with anything other than foam to protect the front, or am I better off ordering the cover?
When you get here DHL it to yourself.
A quick query for those familiar with the TSA - am I likely to run into any issues flying out from the US with a scope in hand luggage? Have travelled with weirder things elsewhere, but don't have much experience of the US.
As for blighty customs, I've taken 2k USD worth of electronics into the UK a number of times (eg laptop, camera, USB scope) without even thinking about it, but nothing like a full sized scope. Does anyone know how much they care about something like this? Could declare it but have already paid sales tax and would rather not be taxed twice on one item!
Thanks for the helpful replies!As a precaution, don't pack anything with it that would indicate it was bought in US - invoice, manuals, original packing etc. I don't recall if it came with a screen protection film but definitely remove that, maybe add plenty of fingermarks!
DHL seemed very expensive when I used their online calculator, plus would have to insure it and pay a bunch of import fees. I think I'll just give myself plenty of time to go through security and keep the cord with it.
As for blighty customs, I've taken 2k USD worth of electronics into the UK a number of times (eg laptop, camera, USB scope) without even thinking about it, but nothing like a full sized scope. Does anyone know how much they care about something like this? Could declare it but have already paid sales tax and would rather not be taxed twice on one item!
Why did you pay sales tax in the US, by the way? Didn't you mail order and have it sent to another state? If you did pay US sales tax, you should be able to get a refund for that if you declare the export, so you won't be taxed twice. But the UK tax is higher, of course... ::)I got one shipped to a friend in a sales-tax state/city, who I'll be visiting on my trip. If it's easy enough to get a refund then I might just do that and cough up the (~2x higher) VAT in the UK. Annoying to pay more but it's still a cracking deal. Otherwise, I'm pretty good at covering shiny screens with fingerprints :P
Most distributors in the US are charging sales tax regardless of which State they ship to because they usually have a nationwide operationsAs for blighty customs, I've taken 2k USD worth of electronics into the UK a number of times (eg laptop, camera, USB scope) without even thinking about it, but nothing like a full sized scope. Does anyone know how much they care about something like this? Could declare it but have already paid sales tax and would rather not be taxed twice on one item!
A bit of a gamble at least. If you decide not to declare it, and customs somehow pick up on it, they might get annoyed. As you would be exceeding the free allowance (390 GBP) significantly, they might even charge an extra penalty.
Why did you pay sales tax in the US, by the way? Didn't you mail order and have it sent to another state? If you did pay US sales tax, you should be able to get a refund for that if you declare the export, so you won't be taxed twice. But the UK tax is higher, of course... ::)
EDIT: Allowance amount; tax refund comment added.
Thanks for the helpful replies!As a precaution, don't pack anything with it that would indicate it was bought in US - invoice, manuals, original packing etc. I don't recall if it came with a screen protection film but definitely remove that, maybe add plenty of fingermarks!
DHL seemed very expensive when I used their online calculator, plus would have to insure it and pay a bunch of import fees. I think I'll just give myself plenty of time to go through security and keep the cord with it.
As for blighty customs, I've taken 2k USD worth of electronics into the UK a number of times (eg laptop, camera, USB scope) without even thinking about it, but nothing like a full sized scope. Does anyone know how much they care about something like this? Could declare it but have already paid sales tax and would rather not be taxed twice on one item!
Bring the scope as luggage (in a carrying case) and put the box + manuals in the post.There are no manuals in the box and the box itself is not worth keeping
To the UK I seem to have better experience with FedEx than DHL :)
Just today I got about $350,- worth of items via FedEx from US - and it went through customs without a charge. I think that is now about 50/50 if I have gotten charged....
With DHL I get charged every time without exception - and their UK office is absolute terrible to deal with if you have to pay. Online Gateway is often down - and DHL drivers do not by default have card reader with them. But FedEx DOES. So never had any issues with FedEx so far
:)
FedEx bill any tax and admin charges due separately after delivery.
Can someone give me an idea of the dimensions and weight of the box the scope ships in ? I tried to find this information online but no luck yet, I'm looking at shipping one internationally soon so would be good to get this information.Box is R&S branded. Approx 4 inches bigger than the scope in all dimensions. Packing is foam rubber type so moderately heavy, Label on mine says 10kg.
Also is the outside box covered in R&S branding or is it shipped double boxed with no external branding?
Bring the scope as luggage (in a carrying case) and put the box + manuals in the post.There are no manuals in the box and the box itself is not worth keeping
Box received from US distributor is 11 lb (5kg) and the dimensions are 19x14x10 inches.Can someone give me an idea of the dimensions and weight of the box the scope ships in ? I tried to find this information online but no luck yet, I'm looking at shipping one internationally soon so would be good to get this information.Box is R&S branded. Approx 4 inches bigger than the scope in all dimensions. Packing is foam rubber type so moderately heavy, Label on mine says 10kg.
Also is the outside box covered in R&S branding or is it shipped double boxed with no external branding?
Can someone give me an idea of the dimensions and weight of the box the scope ships in ? I tried to find this information online but no luck yet, I'm looking at shipping one internationally soon so would be good to get this information.Box is R&S branded. Approx 4 inches bigger than the scope in all dimensions. Packing is foam rubber type so moderately heavy, Label on mine says 10kg.
Also is the outside box covered in R&S branding or is it shipped double boxed with no external branding?
Someone asked for some scope shots of audio with FFT, here are some. They are just listing to Pandora through the computer. I could also do sin, triangle, square wave at a set frequency if interested. settings are on screen.
Joel
Hypothetically, I could end up with a second one of these scopes, so I look into shipping the shipping costs to Europe for obvious reasons. I checked several carriers, going to different cities, and they all cost between $300 and $400, which seems crazy to me. I'm going to London this fall, and it would cost less to buy the scope the seat beside me on that flight. Is there something I'm doing wrong, or are these expected prices for shipping to Europe?
Indeed, insurance is expensive and generally whatever you insure a shipment for is the amount used for tax collection.
Hypothetically, I could end up with a second one of these scopes, so I look into shipping the shipping costs to Europe for obvious reasons. I checked several carriers, going to different cities, and they all cost between $300 and $400, which seems crazy to me. I'm going to London this fall, and it would cost less to buy the scope the seat beside me on that flight. Is there something I'm doing wrong, or are these expected prices for shipping to Europe?Assuming you are in the US: USPS is much cheaper.
I checked several carriers, going to different cities, and they all cost between $300 and $400, which seems crazy to me. I'm going to London this fall, and it would cost less to buy the scope the seat beside me on that flight.This is why I'm planning on flying back to europe with one in my carry-on early next month - I got the same insane prices when I checked, vs an extra bag on the flight at ~30 USD. Could have gone with a shipping re-seller but was a good excuse for a holiday anyway.
I have a Shipito account and I just checked their shipping calculator for a 19x15x10 box with 10.4 lbs weight and declared value of $200 and it was coming up as $82 Fedex Economy to London SW7 with insurance included.
When I increased the declared value to $2080 the price increased to $111 Fedex Economy with Insurance. Not bad versus listed Fedex or DHL prices
Someone asked for some scope shots of audio with FFT, here are some. They are just listing to Pandora through the computer. I could also do sin, triangle, square wave at a set frequency if interested. settings are on screen.
Joel
Has anyone here in New Zealand purchased the RTB2004, I'm interested but found very little information on it here including lead time.I had a bit of a look myself, but didn't have any luck finding any decent RTB2K-COM4 promo pricing (element14 has it in stock for $5.5k NZD + GST, cheaper than full list price but a far cry from the ~$2k USD promo).
I have a Shipito account and I just checked their shipping calculator for a 19x15x10 box with 10.4 lbs weight and declared value of $200 and it was coming up as $82 Fedex Economy to London SW7 with insurance included.
When I increased the declared value to $2080 the price increased to $111 Fedex Economy with Insurance. Not bad versus listed Fedex or DHL prices
I have a FedEx account and that sounds about right. If you are a punter off the street without an account with FedEx, prepare to be royally shafted! Alternatively, you can use third parties. Quite often FedEx Priority is actually cheaper than FedEx Economy bizarrely.
Are you in SW7? Coincidentally, that is also my location.
Has anyone here in New Zealand purchased the RTB2004, I'm interested but found very little information on it here including lead time.I also checked out getting one sent to NZ from the states via NZ post's youshop freight-forwarding service, but they have a $2k USD limit. I think the US units are likely all gone now unfortunately.
I assume that there will be another one of these scope available from Test Equity soon, because I just canceled my order. I don't know if they have a wait list or anything, though.I don't think TestEquity will relist the item for $2080. Some distributors (Allied, Newark) still have the RTB2K-COM4 package available, but at full price for $7920. What is over is the promotional introductory price. The promotion was a combination of both the available quantity and the timeframe.
I originally ordered from TestEquity in mid March, but when a couple were in stock at Allied, I ordered one of them, and received it last week. I thought about getting the second scope and selling it on eBay, but the risks of selling a high ticket item on eBay, coupled with the complications of shipping made me think it was just not worth the pita to go that route, so I canceled my Test Equity order.
I can say I'm happy with the scope; it is doubtless the best scope I've ever owned.
Good luck, I hope an EEVBlogger gets that scope.
It sounds like a pretty decent option but to take costs down further, I recommend trying viabox rather than myus.com. They have the cheapest shipping rates & I've had no problems with them so far. Hope this helps.
I assume that there will be another one of these scope available from Test Equity soon, because I just canceled my order. I don't know if they have a wait list or anything, though.I don't think TestEquity will relist the item for $2080. Some distributors (Allied, Newark) still have the RTB2K-COM4 package available, but at full price for $7920. What is over is the promotional introductory price. The promotion was a combination of both the available quantity and the timeframe.
I originally ordered from TestEquity in mid March, but when a couple were in stock at Allied, I ordered one of them, and received it last week. I thought about getting the second scope and selling it on eBay, but the risks of selling a high ticket item on eBay, coupled with the complications of shipping made me think it was just not worth the pita to go that route, so I canceled my Test Equity order.
I can say I'm happy with the scope; it is doubtless the best scope I've ever owned.
Good luck, I hope an EEVBlogger gets that scope.
http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=RTB2K-COM4&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false&ddkey=http%3Aen-US%2FElement14_US%2Fsearch (http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=RTB2K-COM4&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false&ddkey=http%3Aen-US%2FElement14_US%2Fsearch)
http://www.alliedelec.com/rohde-and-schwarz-rtb2k-com4/70979679/ (http://www.alliedelec.com/rohde-and-schwarz-rtb2k-com4/70979679/)
Last two are comparing FFT to my spectrum analyzer. Tried to get settings as close to the same as I could.
I'm getting a visit from the UK product manager and someone from the German office tomorrow, to talk about opinions on UI and usage etc - if anyone has any specific questions/suggestions let me know.
I think it could be made to look less clunky by removing all the sliding transition stuff and have menus just appear instantlyI'm getting a visit from the UK product manager and someone from the German office tomorrow, to talk about opinions on UI and usage etc - if anyone has any specific questions/suggestions let me know.
My suggestion, based on what I have seen in the video reviews would be : the touchscreen lag definitely has to be addressed by using a more beefy processor or more optimized code (or a better touch screen?)
I'm getting a visit from the UK product manager and someone from the German office tomorrow, to talk about opinions on UI and usage etc - if anyone has any specific questions/suggestions let me know.Unfortunately I don't get mine till the weekend, so can't make any suggestions from personal experience, but I've listed a few thoughts below:
... permanently visible memory depth would be nice ...Yes - top-right area should show memory and trigger holdoff.
Last two are comparing FFT to my spectrum analyzer. Tried to get settings as close to the same as I could.
Trying to capture a 10kHz frequency peak with a spectrum analyzer and frequency step of 30kHz won´t make you happy.
You should use a much much lower frequency step to get a better resolution on your spectrum.
I'm getting a visit from the UK product manager and someone from the German office tomorrow, to talk about opinions on UI and usage etc - if anyone has any specific questions/suggestions let me know.This is good to hear. I really like companies which are listening to the customer (as long as they are not just listening but also reacting). Let me give some input:
I'm getting a visit from the UK product manager and someone from the German office tomorrow, to talk about opinions on UI and usage etc - if anyone has any specific questions/suggestions let me know.
I'm getting a visit from the UK product manager and someone from the German office tomorrow, to talk about opinions on UI and usage etc - if anyone has any specific questions/suggestions let me know.+1 for reducing, or adding an option to switch off animations.
Having an measurement option of showing a bitrate of a given serial signal would be nice (thus you see e.g. 19200 bps - you do not need to calculate). Remark: I might already be there and I just did not see it in the videos.
Keysight DSOX2K / DSOX3K does have it since firmware 2.4 I think (I am too lazy now to get the exact firmware number). The new 1000 series of Keysight probably comes with it too.Having an measurement option of showing a bitrate of a given serial signal would be nice (thus you see e.g. 19200 bps - you do not need to calculate). Remark: I might already be there and I just did not see it in the videos.
... nice one. I´ve never seen a bitrate measurement on scopes yet. I usualy take a pulse width measurement with statistics.
No word on making the pricing more competitive?Not their department, though they did agree that option pricing was silly, and serial decode should be standard these days ( I did mention Siglent have jumped on this one).
No word on making the pricing more competitive?Not their department, though they did agree that option pricing was silly, and serial decode should be standard these days ( I did mention Siglent have jumped on this one).
They do seem keen to get into the market, to replace Tek as "the other big-brand scope people" (my words), so I think we may see more promos in the future.
Siglent also uses cheap capacitors and inferior materials.>:(
Even with full pricing it comes in well under the Keysight with the same options.That doesn't say Keysight is good value for money. IMHO there is a market for full featured scopes in the $2000 to $5000 range and manufacturers finally start to step into this segment.
Siglent also uses cheap capacitors and inferior materials.>:(
You'd better qualify those remarks, if you can. :P
At least Siglent don't use a highly reflective glass on their displays. ::)
And a Tek TDS2012B I have has rust on the chassis edges too. Your point is ?Siglent also uses cheap capacitors and inferior materials.>:(
You'd better qualify those remarks, if you can. :P
At least Siglent don't use a highly reflective glass on their displays. ::)
Rusty metal edges on interior chassis parts.
Low grade electrolytic caps.I have seen none fail or heard of any that have. Siglent use Leylon caps in their in-house designed and built PSU's and have for some time.
Do you have the RTB2000 scope? The display is one of the clearest, sharpest ones I've seen.
No and I studied this thread from it's inception and most of the Vids and all show too shiny glass IMO.IMHO you are overreacting. A glossy screen isn't a problem because most of what reflects in it is out of focus anyway. Apple tends to agree otherwise they wouldn't put glossy screens in their devices. Heck, if glossy displays where such a problem to use they wouldn't exist!
Fine if you need a mirror to comb your hair with but as you get older there's a chance you don't need a comb or a mirror glass scope.
Even with full pricing it comes in well under the Keysight with the same options.That doesn't say Keysight is good value for money. IMHO there is a market for full featured scopes in the $2000 to $5000 range and manufacturers finally start to step into this segment.
And a Tek TDS2012B I have has rust on the chassis edges too. Your point is ?Siglent also uses cheap capacitors and inferior materials.>:(
You'd better qualify those remarks, if you can. :P
At least Siglent don't use a highly reflective glass on their displays. ::)
Rusty metal edges on interior chassis parts.QuoteLow grade electrolytic caps.I have seen none fail or heard of any that have. Siglent use Leylon caps in their in-house designed and built PSU's and have for some time.
But I suppose the Nichicon caps they use in the mainboards could give trouble but I've not heard of any fail either.
Maybe some engineer just might know where to use what, don't you think ?QuoteDo you have the RTB2000 scope? The display is one of the clearest, sharpest ones I've seen.
No and I studied this thread from it's inception and most of the Vids and all show too shiny glass IMO.
Fine if you need a mirror to comb your hair with but as you get older there's a chance you don't need a comb or a mirror glass scope.
Can we keep on-topic please!
Can we keep on-topic please!Agreed! This thread has been generally very useful (albeit dangerous to one's wallet) - thanks to everyone for all the helpful info.
Sure it has a glossy screen ... more than others. But actual smartphones have the same glossy screen. With a dark screen/background you have a high miror effect too. I already got used to it and don´t see a big issue on that. And I´m in daily usage with the scope now.
Can we keep on-topic please!Agreed! This thread has been generally very useful (albeit dangerous to one's wallet) - thanks to everyone for all the helpful info.
Mike - did the R&S guys make any comments about if they would like general questions and suggestions passed onto them? If so, who to?
Sure it has a glossy screen ... more than others. But actual smartphones have the same glossy screen. With a dark screen/background you have a high miror effect too.That makes me wonder... why do all scopes still have a dark background? I did some TFT conversions on old test equipment and in those cases I always went for a white background. It is much easier for the eyes.
That makes me wonder... why do all scopes still have a dark background? I did some TFT conversions on old test equipment and in those cases I always went for a white background. It is much easier for the eyes.
... Re. shiny screen it's all about position - if there is only one place you can sensibly put a scope, and it reflects glare, it's a major problem, if not, it's a non-issue. (The R&S guys didn't like it either BTW!)
Protector seems to have no effect on touch operation or visibility. After a while you do see finger marks when viewed from an angle but doesn't affect normal operation. Cleans off quite well with IPA.... Re. shiny screen it's all about position - if there is only one place you can sensibly put a scope, and it reflects glare, it's a major problem, if not, it's a non-issue. (The R&S guys didn't like it either BTW!)
@mike: Whats your experience with using a display foil?
Does it have major effects to the touchability?
My expirience is (and it might be disgusting) that a touched dispaly is more responsive than a fresh cleaned one. Cleaned up it felt a littla sticky ...
That makes me wonder... why do all scopes still have a dark background? I did some TFT conversions on old test equipment and in those cases I always went for a white background. It is much easier for the eyes.
On a TFT screen or sharp CRT that doesn't make any difference (with the 5% and 95% corrected for the optical performance of the display).That makes me wonder... why do all scopes still have a dark background? I did some TFT conversions on old test equipment and in those cases I always went for a white background. It is much easier for the eyes.I think intensity grading is more clearly seen on a dark background, as are weak traces: It is easier to spot a trace with 5% brightness on a black background, than a trace with 95% brightness on a 100% white background.
So seems like my scope acts up in the presence of its R&S Masters... After the not-booting issue when they arrived, it's now playing completely dead - power LED on, but nothing else.Must be the caps. :-DD
Time to see how good their warranty service is.
Hopefully better than recent experience with keysight MSOX3104T, where their Fedex collection courier managed to lose it for a month (though to be fair Keysight did offer a loan unit).
That makes me wonder... why do all scopes still have a dark background? I did some TFT conversions on old test equipment and in those cases I always went for a white background. It is much easier for the eyes.
White is a typical color for general PC usage ...
When using this on a scope you´ll get problems with the coloring of the waveforms ...
Colors like pure yellow, green or cyan won´t work that good due to their high brigthness on contrast to the white background.
And reducing max. intensity for them will loose step within the color scale for dark to bright.
Otherwise you´ll need a complete different color set for white background ... which might be good for the color blind people.
Can somebody post a shot of a picoscope?
PS: my eye specalist once said: the more change you give to your eyes the better it is ... ( esp. if working in front of monitors )
So seems like my scope acts up in the presence of its R&S Masters... After the not-booting issue when they arrived, it's now playing completely dead - power LED on, but nothing else.Must be the caps. :-DD
Time to see how good their warranty service is.
Hopefully better than recent experience with keysight MSOX3104T, where their Fedex collection courier managed to lose it for a month (though to be fair Keysight did offer a loan unit).
At least they didn't outsource the firmware to Siglent >:DThat's how they offered the promo so cheap, they shipped them out with Siglent guts! >:DSo seems like my scope acts up in the presence of its R&S Masters... After the not-booting issue when they arrived, it's now playing completely dead - power LED on, but nothing else.Must be the caps. :-DD
Time to see how good their warranty service is.
Hopefully better than recent experience with keysight MSOX3104T, where their Fedex collection courier managed to lose it for a month (though to be fair Keysight did offer a loan unit).
So seems like my scope acts up in the presence of its R&S Masters... After the not-booting issue when they arrived, it's now playing completely dead - power LED on, but nothing else.Obviously it's a different story with your unit, which they expect to be taken apart, but did you see any evidence that the warranty would be void if you opened it up? Saw the "Calibration Void" sticker, but this is less of a concern to me in hobbyist use. Would be a shame to have something on my workbench that I haven't opened to have a look inside!
Time to see how good their warranty service is.
No, only calibration.So seems like my scope acts up in the presence of its R&S Masters... After the not-booting issue when they arrived, it's now playing completely dead - power LED on, but nothing else.Obviously it's a different story with your unit, which they expect to be taken apart, but did you see any evidence that the warranty would be void if you opened it up? Saw the "Calibration Void" sticker, but this is less of a concern to me in hobbyist use. Would be a shame to have something on my workbench that I haven't opened to have a look inside!
Time to see how good their warranty service is.
Siglent seems to be the benchmark for LOW QUALITY. I have not owned any Siglent instrument, is it really that BAD?So seems like my scope acts up in the presence of its R&S Masters... After the not-booting issue when they arrived, it's now playing completely dead - power LED on, but nothing else.Must be the caps. :-DD
Time to see how good their warranty service is.
Hopefully better than recent experience with keysight MSOX3104T, where their Fedex collection courier managed to lose it for a month (though to be fair Keysight did offer a loan unit).
That's how they offered the promo so cheap, they shipped them out with Siglent guts! >:D
...though datasheet says UART to 32Mbaud but it seems to stop at 3Mbaud. I have queried this as IMO 3M is too low.
One thing that looks good for the long term is they are planning a higher-end model which will use the same software base, so we can expect improvements and updates to percolate down from this development. (This is also the reason for all the empty space in the case).
Slightly embarrassing moment when I first turned it on in front of them and it crashed - one tip is that you can force a factory reset by holding the PRESET button when the splash screen appears.
Siglent seems to be the benchmark for LOW QUALITY. I have not owned any Siglent instrument, is it really that BAD?No it isn't. The hardware is quite decent and the rust is a running gag but the biggest let down in Siglent equipment is the buggy/incomplete firmware. When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted. You won't find that kind of cost optimisations in GW Instek, Rigol or Siglent scopes. In those the input BNCs are bolted to the chassis (for as far as I have seen so far) as they should because these connectors get a lot of abuse.
No, but I did mention to them today that 3M wasn't enough....though datasheet says UART to 32Mbaud but it seems to stop at 3Mbaud. I have queried this as IMO 3M is too low.
Mike, just curious, have you ever received a definitive answer back on the baud rate?
Continental Resources (http://www.conres.com/test-equipment (http://www.conres.com/test-equipment)) still has some in stock. They don't take online orders so you have to request a "Quote". I placed an order last week and it was shipped same day...
Siglent seems to be the benchmark for LOW QUALITY. I have not owned any Siglent instrument, is it really that BAD?No it isn't. The hardware is quite decent and the rust is a running gag but the biggest let down in Siglent equipment is the buggy/incomplete firmware. When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted. You won't find that kind of cost optimisations in GW Instek, Rigol or Siglent scopes. In those the input BNCs are bolted to the chassis (for as far as I have seen so far) as they should because these connectors get a lot of abuse.
edit: Made in China means they can built things properly while still keeping labour costs down. Even in the Czech Republic it will be expensive to have an employee mount a PCB onto a metal frame and tighten a couple of nuts on 5 BNC connectors.
When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted.As with the endlessly tedious discuusion about PSU caps, until we see one actually break, nobody can offer any meaningful information as to whether it's any better or worse.
Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted.As with the endlessly tedious discuusion about PSU caps, until we see one actually break, nobody can offer any meaningful information as to whether it's any better or worse.
Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!
When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted.As with the endlessly tedious discuusion about PSU caps, until we see one actually break, nobody can offer any meaningful information as to whether it's any better or worse.
Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!
I have seen this many times as well, but never once on bench/desk mounted equipment. Field used gear of-course get damaged any number of ways, and stuff mounted in 19" racks gets damaged by roll around chairs or people walking into them with long probes attached.
I have seen it on desktop equipment as well. Go on Ebay and see for yourself.Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!I have seen this many times as well, but never once on bench/desk mounted equipment.
You guys see this?So this for: only max. 2 promo scopes per buyer. This guy has already sold 2 of the RTB2004.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/352040549226?ul_noapp=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/352040549226?ul_noapp=true)
I have seen it on desktop equipment as well. Go on Ebay and see for yourself.Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!I have seen this many times as well, but never once on bench/desk mounted equipment.
The BNC's used DO look nice but without them retained by nuts IMO this is the main cause of the microphonic behaviour. I think their mounting system will be adequate to survive the knocks and bumps but if they do get damaged they might also be harder to replace in this style. Tradeoffs. :horse:When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted.As with the endlessly tedious discuusion about PSU caps, until we see one actually break, nobody can offer any meaningful information as to whether it's any better or worse.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/KEYSIGHT-Infiniivision-MSOX3034T-Mixed-signal-Oscilloscope-350Mhz-MEGA-ZOOM-/172559013145?hash=item282d519519:g:GqYAAOSwhlZYuQIj (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/KEYSIGHT-Infiniivision-MSOX3034T-Mixed-signal-Oscilloscope-350Mhz-MEGA-ZOOM-/172559013145?hash=item282d519519:g:GqYAAOSwhlZYuQIj)I have seen it on desktop equipment as well. Go on Ebay and see for yourself.Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!I have seen this many times as well, but never once on bench/desk mounted equipment.
OK, now I want a link.
The BNC's used DO look nice but without them retained by nuts IMO this is the main cause of the microphonic behaviour. I think their mounting system will be adequate to survive the knocks and bumps but if they do get damaged they might also be harder to replace in this style. Tradeoffs. :horse:When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted.As with the endlessly tedious discuusion about PSU caps, until we see one actually break, nobody can offer any meaningful information as to whether it's any better or worse.
Time will tell.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/KEYSIGHT-Infiniivision-MSOX3034T-Mixed-signal-Oscilloscope-350Mhz-MEGA-ZOOM-/172559013145?hash=item282d519519:g:GqYAAOSwhlZYuQIj (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/KEYSIGHT-Infiniivision-MSOX3034T-Mixed-signal-Oscilloscope-350Mhz-MEGA-ZOOM-/172559013145?hash=item282d519519:g:GqYAAOSwhlZYuQIj)I have seen it on desktop equipment as well. Go on Ebay and see for yourself.Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!I have seen this many times as well, but never once on bench/desk mounted equipment.
OK, now I want a link.
From my own archives. On the HP machine the inner chassis is bent due to the force applied to the BNC connectors. The Tektronix scope got dropped ruining the barrel of the right most BNC.OK, now I want a link.I have seen it on desktop equipment as well. Go on Ebay and see for yourself.Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!I have seen this many times as well, but never once on bench/desk mounted equipment.
Yep but what is the main shock transmission medium to the MLCC's ?The BNC's used DO look nice but without them retained by nuts IMO this is the main cause of the microphonic behaviour. I think their mounting system will be adequate to survive the knocks and bumps but if they do get damaged they might also be harder to replace in this style. Tradeoffs. :horse:When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted.As with the endlessly tedious discuusion about PSU caps, until we see one actually break, nobody can offer any meaningful information as to whether it's any better or worse.
Time will tell.
I think MLCC's are the cause of the microphonics.
From my own archives:OK, now I want a link.I have seen it on desktop equipment as well. Go on Ebay and see for yourself.Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!I have seen this many times as well, but never once on bench/desk mounted equipment.
You guys see this?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/352040549226?ul_noapp=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/352040549226?ul_noapp=true)
Yep but what is the main shock transmission medium to the MLCC's ?The BNC's used DO look nice but without them retained by nuts IMO this is the main cause of the microphonic behaviour. I think their mounting system will be adequate to survive the knocks and bumps but if they do get damaged they might also be harder to replace in this style. Tradeoffs. :horse:When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted.As with the endlessly tedious discuusion about PSU caps, until we see one actually break, nobody can offer any meaningful information as to whether it's any better or worse.
Time will tell.
I think MLCC's are the cause of the microphonics.
No bulkhead BNC.
It's an oversight in the design, fatal for some like Dave and it would drive him mad but others could well live happily with it. Me, not sure but at least we're all now well aware of it.
Has anyone used a mouse with their scope? I tried two wireless mice but they didn't work properly. I finally tried a wired mouse which works but I'd like to use wireless mice.
Thanks
Has anyone used a mouse with their scope? I tried two wireless mice but they didn't work properly. I finally tried a wired mouse which works but I'd like to use wireless mice.
Thanks
Didn't realize this was an option!
Most of the wireless dongles are a composite HID device (keyboard and mouse) so likely the scope doesn't know what to do with it. Which ones did you try?
Most of the wireless dongles are a composite HID device (keyboard and mouse)Many recent Logitech dongles follow their unify protocol and work with a both a keyboard and a mouse. Still, many Logitech mice come with a mouse only dongle, and most dongles from other makers are mouse or keyboard only.
That's interesting. I just grabbed my wireless USB keyboard/mouse pad to try. It did something, cursor moved up and down screen but not horizontally. Mouse click made the cursor move to the right. So trying to do something but nothing usable or sensible. I then tried my logitech mouse, but no action at all. It's one of the unified USB setups, so that doesn't surprise me. If we can use a USB mouse and/or keyboard, it would have been nice to have a second USB on the rear for it so the front stays free for storage.
That's interesting. I just grabbed my wireless USB keyboard/mouse pad to try. It did something, cursor moved up and down screen but not horizontally. Mouse click made the cursor move to the right. So trying to do something but nothing usable or sensible. I then tried my logitech mouse, but no action at all. It's one of the unified USB setups, so that doesn't surprise me. If we can use a USB mouse and/or keyboard, it would have been nice to have a second USB on the rear for it so the front stays free for storage.
Joel,
My Logitech mice did just about the same thing. There is another usb on the back, a type 'B'.
Type B is generally not for being a USB host. If you could get the right adapter, dont think it would work. Something to look into.
Type B is generally not for being a USB host. If you could get the right adapter, dont think it would work. Something to look into.
Right, I checked it - no +5V -.
OK, my suggestion to R&S is to run two usb ports.
Type B is generally not for being a USB host. If you could get the right adapter, dont think it would work. Something to look into.
Right, I checked it - no +5V -.
OK, my suggestion to R&S is to run two usb ports.
It would be cool to press the save button on the scope and have it send the screenshot or data somewhere over the network. The existing options of plugging in a USB device and then moving it to a computer to copy the files off, or using the remote web interface to grab the data, are not terrible, but the convenience of just dropping it into a folder on my computer straight from the scope would be awesome.You can do almost that using the USB MTP mode - scope appears as a drive on your PC, and you can drag out a file containing a PNG of the current screen image or other data. You don't need to touch the scope.
Question: do you know if this scope can easily export or save to matlab format for offline analysis. That would very useful for me.I think the available formats (via USB MTP) are raw binary and CSV.
Question: do you know if this scope can easily export or save to matlab format for offline analysis. That would very useful for me.I think the available formats (via USB MTP) are raw binary and CSV.
If the PC application supports it, I believe it can do some sort of 'live update' by refreshing the file.
More info here :
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Import_ac_en_3607-0446-92_v0100.pdf
That would suck marginally less if the options are reenabled after fixing the battery/clock. Fingers crossed?
That would suck marginally less if the options are reenabled after fixing the battery/clock. Fingers crossed?
I would assume RS are not stupid enough to reset or disable the option licence keys permanently when theOne would hope that it's simply a case of being outside the current time window. maybe you could test this by resetting the time, and power-cycling briefly - there may be a cap that will hold the time for a short time.
RT clock battery is dead. It would make sense to temporarily disable certain options from working but after the battery is replaced, all options should continue to work since the licence keys reside in FLASH and need the date and time to validate and enable the license
My guess is though options are permanent it's borking due to date preceding the option start date.That would suck marginally less if the options are reenabled after fixing the battery/clock. Fingers crossed?
Sorry, should have mentioned after resetting the date and going to the setup page it appeared the options were all (re)enabled (although in my confusion I didn't actually check the options page before setting the date to see what it said, had a bit of trouble finding it at first). Even stranger is all the options were listed as permanent so I don't know why any would be disabled due to clock manipulation anyway. Unfortunately I didn't have time to actually try any of the options. Power cycling the scope after setting the date resulted in the exact same error messages though (and a cleared clock). I will have a closer look at the setup page (before setting the date) when I get back from work. It is frustrating.
you received a key in written form, tap "Input option key manually". Enter the key.
If you received a key in digital form as a file, tap "Read option key from file".
Select path /USB_FRONT and the option key file
That would suck marginally less if the options are reenabled after fixing the battery/clock. Fingers crossed?The scope ships with the activation codes in a piece of paper, so I guess they can be re-enabled after the battery is fixed
I would somehow expect that a clock changing deactivates options. How else should they ensure that timed licenses work? They probably have some fancy crypto ongoing as well. That's not like shareware in the nineties.
That would suck marginally less if the options are reenabled after fixing the battery/clock. Fingers crossed?The scope ships with the activation codes in a piece of paper, so I guess they can be re-enabled after the battery is fixed
Who said timed licenses? There is no need to start a conspiracy theory...I would somehow expect that a clock changing deactivates options. How else should they ensure that timed licenses work? They probably have some fancy crypto ongoing as well. That's not like shareware in the nineties.
Timed licences? Really? So when you buy a licence for a this scope it will expire?
So you are essentially renting the option for some number of years? That would be dumb in this case.
I would expect a perpetual or forever license that never expires and is flaged in non volotile memory as such negating the need to check againt the date and time for an option with a forever attribute
@grouchobyte
The China RoHS is outside the small box. Check inside the smaller box, it is a single piece of paper (US letter sized) with some stickers stapled on.That would suck marginally less if the options are reenabled after fixing the battery/clock. Fingers crossed?The scope ships with the activation codes in a piece of paper, so I guess they can be re-enabled after the battery is fixed
Mine didn't. The only paper included was the China RoHS diagram booklet :'(
@Mike: did you see any special piece of hardware which could hold the licenses?No - don't see any need for this, just needs some nonvolatile memory.
Who said timed licenses? There is no need to start a conspiracy theory...Any licensing system is going to be designed to allow for the option of evaluation licenses etc. for flexibility - you can't read any intent into that.
Yes, but what is it worth if it can be bypassed by simply changing the clock? A better solution would be some kind of countdown based on days in use but it should be laid back in order not to cause problems for legitimate users who may be on a deadline to finish a project. Nothing is worse than your tools dying on you while working on a rush job.Who said timed licenses? There is no need to start a conspiracy theory...Any licensing system is going to be designed to allow for the option of evaluation licenses etc. for flexibility - you can't read any intent into that.
Sorry, I misunderstood grouchobyte's post...Who said timed licenses? There is no need to start a conspiracy theory...Any licensing system is going to be designed to allow for the option of evaluation licenses etc. for flexibility - you can't read any intent into that.
Hmm...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=311524;image)
Ya, that caught me off guard as well. As far as I can tell that's the firmware date though. The actual scope date is in the far upper right corner (note the 2000-01-01 in the unset state and 2017-04-28 in the set state).
That would suck marginally less if the options are reenabled after fixing the battery/clock. Fingers crossed?The scope ships with the activation codes in a piece of paper, so I guess they can be re-enabled after the battery is fixed
Mine didn't. The only paper included was the China RoHS diagram booklet :'(
Looking at Myrv's screen shots, is there a 1.204 version of FW? I notice the date is a couple weeks newer than mine. Mines at 1.203Yes, R&S implemented a new feature called "RTC battery error and clock reset" :-DD
@Myrv - looks like your scope is all good and normal now. As long as the time and date sticks after leaving it unplugged for a while.
Day 44 passes and still not a word from TE. Bought before the "30 day" notice showed up on the website (with R&S marketing indicating dealers were stocked)... got an "expected" ship date of today 24 days ago... and .. its after work hours everywhere in the US now.
Somewhat disappointing. Had been in the shopping phases to get something on-hand for next month ... and thought stars had aligned. Then watching people buy after I did, and get in like 2 weeks or less... I can't decide if I should be frustrated with RS for poor stock management or the vendor i bought from for not seeming to try hard, nor really update me on my order, especially since they've had my money in their hands for 6 weeks now. :-//
such is life i guess.
Can you check continuity from the battery (+) to the battery clip? Maybe the battery clip is not soldered correctly to the PCB.
So did some more poking around (literally, with a long probe). The battery itself seems to be fine. Measuring from the cell (+) to the chassis gives 3.1V. Measuring from the battery clip to the chassis though gives nothing (0 V). If I press down on one of the contact spring tabs on the battery clip I can get a voltage but as soon as I release pressure it loses contact again. This is the same for both of the contact tabs. With some effort I managed to move the battery around. For a brief moment it made contact and survived two power cycles then failed again. I've managed to rotate the battery 180°, testing at multiple spots, but failed to make it connect again. Strangely the battery seems to be in there pretty good. I have no idea what's holding it in yet not making electrical contact. Anyway looks like a bum battery clip or some kind of contamination. It is likely a 5 minute fix although I'll let them do that.
R&S has agreed to FedEx it back to their factory on their dime. Thanks everyone for the suggestions.
Were you able to get to the battery to see if it was perhaps dead? Would be a shame to send it back if a new battery does the trick.It is better to send faulty new gear back and not mess with it.
Buying a single item off ebay is probably not the preferred way to purchase test equipment for companies/professional users, so doesn't necessarily say much about what they (the main market) would pay.
Joel,
When I got my scope I checked for new firmware. It showed the latest firmware as 1.203 as of about March 17.
Rob
Not surprised! It's still a good deal.
Look what this scope sold for.
Keysight Used DSOX3024T Oscilloscope, 4-channel, 200MHz(Agilent). No bus, 200M, no MSO and used:
Not surprised! It's still a good deal.
Look what this scope sold for.
Keysight Used DSOX3024T Oscilloscope, 4-channel, 200MHz(Agilent). No bus, 200M, no MSO and used:
Don't let ebay fool you.
The R&S actually sold for $3650.00 and the Keysight sold for $2281.00.
Ebay tends to hide accepted best offer prices.
Don't let ebay fool you.I am wondering about where this has been hidden? I only can see "best offer accepted" but not any value.
The R&S actually sold for $3650.00 and the Keysight sold for $2281.00.
Ebay tends to hide accepted best offer prices.
Used Keysight instruments (sold by Keysight from Malaysia) do not include any probes. I wanted to buy a DSOX2000 once and I asked if they could include used probes that are hanging around the factory and they replied NO, WE DON'T HAVE ANY PROBES. If you want to have the instrument and the original probes (used), you need to spend another $600
Used Keysight instruments (sold by Keysight from Malaysia) do not include any probes. I wanted to buy a DSOX2000 once and I asked if they could include used probes that are hanging around the factory and they replied NO, WE DON'T HAVE ANY PROBES. If you want to have the instrument and the original probes (used), you need to spend another $600
Here's the address for updates if anyone wants to check:
www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000 (http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000).
With a new product like this, in the absence of serious issues, I think it make sense for them to wait a while to gather feedback from users and fix everything in one go, rather than doing it piecemeal.Here's the address for updates if anyone wants to check:
www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000 (http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000).
Nearly 7 weeks now since the first firmware release. Equals what, about 7 months in brand-new test equipment dog years? :) About time for some new firmware, I would think. Mike's observations alone should equal one new firmware release.
With a new product like this, in the absence of serious issues, I think it make sense for them to wait a while to gather feedback from users and fix everything in one go, rather than doing it piecemeal.Here's the address for updates if anyone wants to check:
www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000 (http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000).
Nearly 7 weeks now since the first firmware release. Equals what, about 7 months in brand-new test equipment dog years? :) About time for some new firmware, I would think. Mike's observations alone should equal one new firmware release.
Yes - only looked at it briefly, but the update rate is rather inconsistent and jittery. Also jumps significantly as you cross particular timebase settings for no obvious reasons.
One strange thing I noticed was that the waveform rate seems to slow for a brief time after changing any setting, before going back to normal - anyone else seen this?
~$7920.00 - 4 channel - RTB2K com4
(corrected)
For this kind of money there are so many alternatives (used and new) out there that it doesn't make sense to spend this much money on a scope like this. I can't see R&S selling this scope for around $8k. It will do better in the $3k to $4k region especially since it is a Hameg style scope and the increasingly stronger competition from Asia.~$7920.00 - 4 channel - RTB2K com4
(corrected)
Thanks, I am def going to go down this path, but I am just waiting a bit longer to make sure they are a good thing after everyone that has one has well and truely put them to work and are happy.......
I'm not sure I agree completely. I expect a lot of institutions might want this scope. Also names like R&S, Agilent and Tektronix have better resale.Resale value is vastly overrated because you'll need a really trustworthy resale channel (with warranty and support) to fetch a reasonable price. In general test equipment depreciates even faster than a car. Especially if you want to sell as a private person it will be hard. Look at what kind of (low) amounts the last year's scope month Keysight scopes went for. And these where brand new! Also I don't think you can compare between today's plastic lunchboxes and >20 year old boatanchors which still fetch foolish amounts of money. It is a bit like classic cars; they don't make stuff like that anymore.
I'm not sure I agree completely. I expect a lot of institutions might want this scope. Also names like R&S, Agilent and Tektronix have better resale.Resale value is vastly overrated because you'll need a really trustworthy resale channel (with warranty and support) to fetch a reasonable price. In general test equipment depreciates even faster than a car. Especially if you want to sell as a private person it will be hard. Look at what kind of (low) amounts the last year's scope month Keysight scopes went for. And these where brand new! Also I don't think you can compare between today's plastic lunchboxes and >20 year old boatanchors which still fetch foolish amounts of money. It is a bit like classic cars; they don't make stuff like that anymore.
I'd agree the price for the fully-loaded unit is pretty unrealistic & would be highly surprised if we don't see some offers 7 bundles.
Will also be interesting to see some feedback from people who have managed to negotiate deals with distributors. Clearly there is a lot of potential for R&S to offer deals on options.
Even at the list price, there may be some customers who need the more unique features - fast ethernet/USB MTP, 10 bit ADC etc. and if they don't need the full bandwidth & options the pricing is probably pretty reasonable.
R&S have acknowledged that they are fairly new in the scope market and are in it for the long haul, so there will be some market testing going on - better to start high & reduce til sales pick up than do a Rigol and launch a product too cheap, which nobody can actually buy for months.
As regards competition in the "big brand" area, Tek are all but dead, and R&S could easily be the main competitor to Keysight long-term if they play it right.
..and of course there is the hack potential....
On another topic, I'm packing mine up for the trip back to the UK - taking the main unit plus power cord in carry on baggage, but am wondering about how I should pack the probes etc for the TSA. Would prefer to have these in hand luggage too, but they could go in checked if it's likely for them to get unhappy about them. Anyone with comments/experience on flying with scope accessories?Why are you bothering to take a (presumably) US power cord ?
I don't know about what distributors could offer, but I know that talking to R&S UK direct they were willing to try and get me a good price (specifically as a keen hobbyist, not sure if they could do better or worse for commercial sales given the need to keep distributors happy). I was offered a promo unit at significantly below any non-US price I've seen mentioned here, or alternatively to let them know what my priorities were regarding options so that they could price up a base unit plus those. Probably would have gone for their offer if I hadn't snagged one of the last US units.
On another topic, I'm packing mine up for the trip back to the UK - taking the main unit plus power cord in carry on baggage, but am wondering about how I should pack the probes etc for the TSA. Would prefer to have these in hand luggage too, but they could go in checked if it's likely for them to get unhappy about them. Anyone with comments/experience on flying with scope accessories?
AFAIK they are more obsessive about objects which can be perceived as dangerous and thus can be used to instill fear. In other words: anything that people recognise as being harmful like scissors, knifes or weapons in general.On another topic, I'm packing mine up for the trip back to the UK - taking the main unit plus power cord in carry on baggage, but am wondering about how I should pack the probes etc for the TSA. Would prefer to have these in hand luggage too, but they could go in checked if it's likely for them to get unhappy about them. Anyone with comments/experience on flying with scope accessories?Why are you bothering to take a (presumably) US power cord ?
Probes have sharp points and a TSA screener probably wouldn't have seen one before. Probably not an issue but I'd put them in checked luggage.
Yes they are WIRES. Everyone knows what wires are used for :blah:
You can have 2.5GSa/s on channel 2 if you switch off channel 1.You're right, Thanks! It 's absolutely makes sense
The scope keeps the trigger sources switched on in hardware. So if you try to switch off channel 1 its just made invisible.
Hm on mine I can deactivate the demo capability. Might it be that yours is in some kind of demo mode?It is Possible; the scope has a "Demo Device" sticker and one of the installed options is called K0 (Demo) that is only temporary :-//
No message/update from TEquipment, but Fedex just notified me they have a 16lbs package on hand for me from "Ingram Micro", which is a 100% match for TEquipment shipping me stuff in the past.
No message/update from TEquipment, but Fedex just notified me they have a 16lbs package on hand for me from "Ingram Micro", which is a 100% match for TEquipment shipping me stuff in the past.
No message/update from TEquipment, but Fedex just notified me they have a 16lbs package on hand for me from "Ingram Micro", which is a 100% match for TEquipment shipping me stuff in the past.
Did it show as "shipped" on Tequipment's website after the estimated ship date?
Just wondering since their website says mine is due to ship tomorrow.
I just received my scope from Test Force in Ottawa and it works well.
Has anyone got a wireless mouse to work and if so which brand and model?
It works fine with a wired mouse, but I'd like to go wireless.
Thanks,
Stuart
I've had the tick labels for the FFT completely disappear requiring a power cycle to get them backYesterday I had the same problem, too.
The AWG doesn't have a sync output.Not sure any of the other scope AWGs do either, but what they do usually allow is to trigger from AWG sync or waveform - I reported this to them a while ago and they said they will look at it.
I have uploaded a review.
...
I just received my scope from Test Force in Ottawa and it works well.
Has anyone got a wireless mouse to work and if so which brand and model?
It works fine with a wired mouse, but I'd like to go wireless.
Thanks,
Stuart
No message/update from TEquipment, but Fedex just notified me they have a 16lbs package on hand for me from "Ingram Micro", which is a 100% match for TEquipment shipping me stuff in the past.
Did it show as "shipped" on Tequipment's website after the estimated ship date?
Just wondering since their website says mine is due to ship tomorrow.
Nope, no change on the order status page. Still says "on order" and estimated ship date 04 May.
Just got my replacement unit - first powerup gave this message. It was pretty cold - maybe 15 deg.
Seems OK once warmed up a couple of mins.
BTW tried a USB keyboard and this was recognised and can be used for numeric inputs etc.
I don't have a wireless mouse to try. My guess is the Logitech ones with issues do odd USB stuff to talk to their driver - a no-name generic one may be a better bet.
Did you have a bad scope too? I thought Myrv had the only bad one.Just got my replacement unit - first powerup gave this message. It was pretty cold - maybe 15 deg.
Seems OK once warmed up a couple of mins.
BTW tried a USB keyboard and this was recognised and can be used for numeric inputs etc.
I don't have a wireless mouse to try. My guess is the Logitech ones with issues do odd USB stuff to talk to their driver - a no-name generic one may be a better bet.
Thats why you americans have this free unlocked software deal, in trade for testing for them.Indeed. It seems there are many problems in this oscilloscope so this will be a real test for R&S to see if they can get the firmware right quickly. Some of the problems like slow response to menu selection changes seem problematic to fix quickly though because they are usually intertwined with how the tasks are organised within the firmware.
No message/update from TEquipment, but Fedex just notified me they have a 16lbs package on hand for me from "Ingram Micro", which is a 100% match for TEquipment shipping me stuff in the past.
Did it show as "shipped" on Tequipment's website after the estimated ship date?
Just wondering since their website says mine is due to ship tomorrow.
Nope, no change on the order status page. Still says "on order" and estimated ship date 04 May.
Fixed. Got the shipping notice from Tequipment.net this morning.
Is there a recommended thread on this forum or some other website to report bugs found on this scope?Not spotted one yet.
Is there a recommended thread on this forum or some other website to report bugs found on this scope?Hi Katie - feel free to post your defects or enhancement requests in my introduction thread and I'll submit them to our tracker.
Not spotted one yet.
Katie, you know what to do. ;)
Is there a recommended thread on this forum or some other website to report bugs found on this scope?Hi Katie - feel free to post your defects or enhancement requests in my introduction thread and I'll submit them to our tracker.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-oscilloscopes-questionscomments-let-me-know (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-oscilloscopes-questionscomments-let-me-know)!/
Just a heads up for those who want a few more probe accessories than the limited selection supplied with the RT-ZP03 these scopes come with.
The LeCroy "PKIT3-5MM-101" is completely compatible with the R&S probe (I assume they use the same OEM), and is available very cheaply from RS UK:
(note that the spring hook grabber thing is a slightly different design but is still compatible)
This is a nice little kit, especially for spares of the most vulnerable parts, the BNC adaptor, low inductance ground spring and the RED (not pink) channel marker cable clip!
Seems that the US (i.e. non-RS) price is much higher, but I think they got the better end of the deal with $2k scopes.
First one already sold...
More scopes on eBay if anyone is intertested:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-Oscilloscope-All-Opt-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/152536506153?hash=item2383e25f29:g:NawAAOSwX61ZC0bH (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-Oscilloscope-All-Opt-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/152536506153?hash=item2383e25f29:g:NawAAOSwX61ZC0bH)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/232323512044?hash=item36178f76ec:g:14UAAOSw~y9ZCjUM (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/232323512044?hash=item36178f76ec:g:14UAAOSw~y9ZCjUM)
First one already sold...
More scopes on eBay if anyone is intertested:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-Oscilloscope-All-Opt-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/152536506153?hash=item2383e25f29:g:NawAAOSwX61ZC0bH (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-Oscilloscope-All-Opt-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/152536506153?hash=item2383e25f29:g:NawAAOSwX61ZC0bH)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/232323512044?hash=item36178f76ec:g:14UAAOSw~y9ZCjUM (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/232323512044?hash=item36178f76ec:g:14UAAOSw~y9ZCjUM)
I've just had a play with the screen protector that Mike linked too - I can confirm that it works well, especially if you make sure everything is extremely clean (especially dust free) and put it on behind the front cover (looks like it is original). That said, I've taken it off again, as I like the crispness of the shiny screen and don't have it in an position where reflections are an issue.
While I had the cover off I also had a look at the encoders, and purchased a similar ALPS EC11J series part to investigate removing the detents, which are still one of the most irritating things about this unit. Unfortunately a stock part is not available without detents, and it also seems that R&S is using a semi-custom model (ALPS don't show the combination of shaft length and style on their product list). Having pulled the similar encoder apart, I'm pretty confident that the detents can be removed from the original R&S parts without destroying them, with the following process:
- buy a spare encoder, remove the outer metal "shell" carefully by un-bending the tabs underneath. Disassemble this one to get an idea of what's inside before working on the real thing (have a go at removing the detent spring too)
- carefully cut the shell of the R&S part on the pcb, as shown in the picture, to separate it into 6 individually soldered down parts (side cutters, possibly a small file could be useful here)
- unsolder each of these parts individually, paying special care to the 2 wide pieces (these have the tabs bent under the black plastic bit)
- pull the top assembly off (black plastic part, switch and contacts remain on the PCB), and disassemble the encoder to remove the detent spring (this is the only part which needs to be forcibly removed, everything else is just keyed to fit together and is held by the metal shell)
- re-assemble, and solder the "shell" from the spare encoder (with the bottom tabs removed) onto the PCB to replace the original one which was cut for easy removal. The removed tabs shouldn't matter as the black part that they retained is still held down by solder.
I'm not going to do this mod to my scope in the near term as I think it'd void the warranty pretty thoroughly, but I really don't like the detents so once I'm confident that the unit is working well I'll be seriously considering it. It's a real shame that R&S didn't ask ALPS to do a small customisation to the encoder to make all this unnecessary, but in their defence, the well-executed trace movements on the touch screen do make up for a lot of the annoyance.
There ought to be a position on the original encoder where both contacts are open ( maybe even the detented position), so holding it that position would allow another to be connected across it to test.Yeah that's what I was hoping/planning. Annoyingly I only realised it as I was typing my previously reply, not while the case was off the scope.
I've got my scope today, and I haven't had much time to play with it, but I'd like to share my first impressions:port 111 is also open on UDP, what could be a strong indication of running rpcbind, but rpcinfo can not connect. showmount does not show anything either. Bummer :(
1. Detents: much more stiff than I expected, but after an hour of so playing with the scope I don't hate them yet. Maybe they're not as annoying as I expected after reading the thread?
2. Responsiveness: not top notch, but acceptable.
3. "Bang" sensitivity: almost as bad as seen in Dave's video, but I don't think it will be a problem. Light touches with a stick did not result in huge response. Using the touchscreen without banging on it did not produce noticeable response. I just need to be more careful when using at the highest sensitivity.
4. Remote operation: perfect. Although I managed to lock the scope after playing with usb/ethernet options in setup. Also, web server not always starts after the cable is unplugged for a short time. I had to restart the scope to be able to use the remote interface again.
5: Triggering: this is the biggest issue I've seen so far: is it possible to synchronize trigger with sweep of the generator? I haven't seen such option anywhere, and it would add a lot to the functionality.
6. Open ports: quick scan revealed that the scope responds on TCP ports 80, 111, 1024, 1025, and 5025. 80 is HTTP, 5025 SCPI. 111 should be rpcbind. Hm, does it mean that the scope export volumes over NFS?
5: Triggering: this is the biggest issue I've seen so far: is it possible to synchronize trigger with sweep of the generator? I haven't seen such option anywhere, and it would add a lot to the functionality.
There ought to be a position on the original encoder where both contacts are open ( maybe even the detented position), so holding it that position would allow another to be connected across it to test.Yeah that's what I was hoping/planning. Annoyingly I only realised it as I was typing my previously reply, not while the case was off the scope.
ALPS gives some info about the detent positions in the datasheet (snippet attached) - looks like one signal is guaranteed to be stable at the detent stop, but the other is not.
I've just had a play with the screen protector that Mike linked too - I can confirm that it works well, especially if you make sure everything is extremely clean (especially dust free) and put it on behind the front cover (looks like it is original). That said, I've taken it off again, as I like the crispness of the shiny screen and don't have it in an position where reflections are an issue.
While I had the cover off I also had a look at the encoders, and purchased a similar ALPS EC11J series part to investigate removing the detents, which are still one of the most irritating things about this unit. Unfortunately a stock part is not available without detents, and it also seems that R&S is using a semi-custom model (ALPS don't show the combination of shaft length and style on their product list). Having pulled the similar encoder apart, I'm pretty confident that the detents can be removed from the original R&S parts without destroying them, with the following process:
- buy a spare encoder, remove the outer metal "shell" carefully by un-bending the tabs underneath. Disassemble this one to get an idea of what's inside before working on the real thing (have a go at removing the detent spring too)
- carefully cut the shell of the R&S part on the pcb, as shown in the picture, to separate it into 6 individually soldered down parts (side cutters, possibly a small file could be useful here)
- unsolder each of these parts individually, paying special care to the 2 wide pieces (these have the tabs bent under the black plastic bit)
- pull the top assembly off (black plastic part, switch and contacts remain on the PCB), and disassemble the encoder to remove the detent spring (this is the only part which needs to be forcibly removed, everything else is just keyed to fit together and is held by the metal shell)
- re-assemble, and solder the "shell" from the spare encoder (with the bottom tabs removed) onto the PCB to replace the original one which was cut for easy removal. The removed tabs shouldn't matter as the black part that they retained is still held down by solder.
I'm not going to do this mod to my scope in the near term as I think it'd void the warranty pretty thoroughly, but I really don't like the detents so once I'm confident that the unit is working well I'll be seriously considering it. It's a real shame that R&S didn't ask ALPS to do a small customisation to the encoder to make all this unnecessary, but in their defence, the well-executed trace movements on the touch screen do make up for a lot of the annoyance.
Just a heads up for those who want a few more probe accessories than the limited selection supplied with the RT-ZP03 these scopes come with.
The LeCroy "PKIT3-5MM-101" is completely compatible with the R&S probe (I assume they use the same OEM)
I did this on a Hameg Oscilloscope and did a video about the procedure.Thanks for the video - very useful to see the results of your similar procedure.
It's not perfect, the feel is slightly uneven while turning (I assume because of the contacts moving between riding on plastic/metal), and the velocity sensing is pretty basic so can be a little jerky when running near the velocity threshold, but this is present anyway.
How is the click function running without detents? Any problems when clicking and unwanted rotaion?Couldn't test that sorry - the test encoder I got had a longer stroke switch (1.5 vs 0.5mm), and I didn't connect up the switch anyway (just the 3 quadrature wires).
I just received my scope from Test Force in Ottawa and it works well.
Has anyone got a wireless mouse to work and if so which brand and model?
It works fine with a wired mouse, but I'd like to go wireless.
Thanks,
Stuart
... it can still display a 1GHz signal...
Standing wave on the cable perhaps?... it can still display a 1GHz signal...
Very good post! I'm just curious if anyone knows what would cause just the bottom of the 1GHz wave to appear modulated like that. I know this is 3x the rated frequency of the scope, just curious why the degradation wouldn't be symmetric vertically. Shouldn't be aliasing if the wave is purely sinusoildal, given the 2.5Gsps sample rate. The 500MHz wave looks symmetrical vertically.
It would be nice to see some other frequencies near 1GHz...Standing wave on the cable perhaps?... it can still display a 1GHz signal...
Very good post! I'm just curious if anyone knows what would cause just the bottom of the 1GHz wave to appear modulated like that. I know this is 3x the rated frequency of the scope, just curious why the degradation wouldn't be symmetric vertically. Shouldn't be aliasing if the wave is purely sinusoildal, given the 2.5Gsps sample rate. The 500MHz wave looks symmetrical vertically.
It would be nice to see some other frequencies near 1GHz...
This is what happens when sin x/x signal reconstruction stops working. Set the scope to dot mode and it will be fine.
Hi NA5WH,
Can you share a few details about this? Software? Source? Files?
Thanks,
Michael
Hi NA5WH,Found it. ;D
Can you share a few details about this? Software? Source? Files?
Thanks,
Michael
I thought maybe you had something, I tried it and it gives the same result. Though I should note, dot mode is in a different menu that acquisition. Acquisition is where you can select Sin(x)/x, Linear, or Sample-Hold. The options other than Sin(x)/x are much worse. It may be that dot mode still uses Sin(x)/x.
Yeah fan noise is not as good as I thought it would be either - my initial impressions were in a room with aircon and I thought it was fine, but now it's at home in a quiet environment it's louder than I'd like (though much better than my rigol before it's fan swap).
I also noticed that during boot it runs at different speeds, including a nice quiet one - wish it would pick that speed when the ambient isn't too warm!
I'll have a look at what it's doing with the fan next time I have the cover off.
I thought maybe you had something, I tried it and it gives the same result. Though I should note, dot mode is in a different menu that acquisition. Acquisition is where you can select Sin(x)/x, Linear, or Sample-Hold. The options other than Sin(x)/x are much worse. It may be that dot mode still uses Sin(x)/x.
Dot mode is an INDEPENDEND setup versus the interpolation type ...
Interpolstion just care abaout that there is at least one (original or calculated) sample per pixel column.
Dot mode only draws a vertical line between two adjacent points. DOT MODE IS NO INTERPOLATION!!!
I measured the 300 MHz RTB2004 rise time as 940ps using a Tektronix 284 pulse generator (<= 70ps rise time) and a 50 Ohm Tektronix 011-0099-00 termination.Yeah: show us your square wave https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/show-us-your-square-wave/350/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/show-us-your-square-wave/350/)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2tex3IlE44 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2tex3IlE44)
Finally got mine in my hands. And of course had to do something silly with it to start off, just for the fun of it.
(hmm... well not sure how to embed videos on this forum, seems to not like the tags i'm trying to throw at it.... so just a link for now)
Yeah fan noise is not as good as I thought it would be either - my initial impressions were in a room with aircon and I thought it was fine, but now it's at home in a quiet environment it's louder than I'd like (though much better than my rigol before it's fan swap).
I also noticed that during boot it runs at different speeds, including a nice quiet one - wish it would pick that speed when the ambient isn't too warm!
I'll have a look at what it's doing with the fan next time I have the cover off.
Hydron,
I'm wondering if something isn't right, my scope is dead quiet and I'm very particular about noise. I just turned everything in my lab off, shut the door to block any outside noise and I have to put my ear up to the scope to hear it. Even then it's not annoying. Could you have jostled it in your travels?
Rob
Yeah fan noise is not as good as I thought it would be either - my initial impressions were in a room with aircon and I thought it was fine, but now it's at home in a quiet environment it's louder than I'd like (though much better than my rigol before it's fan swap).
I also noticed that during boot it runs at different speeds, including a nice quiet one - wish it would pick that speed when the ambient isn't too warm!
I'll have a look at what it's doing with the fan next time I have the cover off.
Hydron,
I'm wondering if something isn't right, my scope is dead quiet and I'm very particular about noise. I just turned everything in my lab off, shut the door to block any outside noise and I have to put my ear up to the scope to hear it. Even then it's not annoying. Could you have jostled it in your travels?
Rob
Same for me. Cannot hear anything. Might it be that you "changed" something while you altered the defends?
Yeah fan noise is not as good as I thought it would be either - my initial impressions were in a room with aircon and I thought it was fine, but now it's at home in a quiet environment it's louder than I'd like (though much better than my rigol before it's fan swap).
I also noticed that during boot it runs at different speeds, including a nice quiet one - wish it would pick that speed when the ambient isn't too warm!
I'll have a look at what it's doing with the fan next time I have the cover off.
Hydron,
I'm wondering if something isn't right, my scope is dead quiet and I'm very particular about noise. I just turned everything in my lab off, shut the door to block any outside noise and I have to put my ear up to the scope to hear it. Even then it's not annoying. Could you have jostled it in your travels?
Rob
Same for me. Cannot hear anything. Might it be that you "changed" something while you altered the defends?
I haven't modified anything yet - will query the fan noise with R&S and hold off fixing the detents until I get the noise sorted out.
That sounds like a temperature controlled fan to me. They start quiet but get increasingly louder.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/352053924341?ul_noapp=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/352053924341?ul_noapp=true)
Gone!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/352053924341?ul_noapp=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/352053924341?ul_noapp=true)
Gone!
Next up, asking $3,795.00
http://www.ebay.com/itm/152545370074 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/152545370074)
I have one arriving on Monday. Hmm, keep it or flip it?
Lots of really nice scope for $4k on Ebay. Getting one with a bandwidth over 1GHz and lots of options isn't out of the question.I have one arriving on Monday. Hmm, keep it or flip it?You have to decide whether you want a great scope or the money. OK, so you make $2k, what do you buy that competes with it for your initial investment plus your profit?
Checked the fan voltage at the connector with long probes and got 10.7V. Basically running full blast despite an ambient of 21C. I don't think that's right. Anybody else with a quiet one can check voltage at runtime?Just checked and my fan is at 10.62V when in normal operation. Could anyone with a quiet fan check theirs? I will be sending an email to R&S shortly about this and other bugs, and would be good to know what the "quiet" units measure (would reveal if it's the fan or the firmware at fault).
During boot, it briefly cycles through 4V (very quiet) and 7V (quiet) then back to 10V (not quiet).
Interestingly, the fan is very nicely mounted on a full rubber bed, so they clearly paid attention to fan vibration. Impressive.
BTW, is there any source for FW 01.204? I tried flashing the old 01.203 to see if it would solve the issue and now I have an error when booting...
Lots of really nice scope for $4k on Ebay. Getting one with a bandwidth over 1GHz and lots of options isn't out of the question.I have one arriving on Monday. Hmm, keep it or flip it?You have to decide whether you want a great scope or the money. OK, so you make $2k, what do you buy that competes with it for your initial investment plus your profit?
Another one just got listed, bet it doesn't last long.Do you have a link? I Ddon't don't see it on eBay? Or is it already gone?
Another one just got listed, bet it doesn't last long.Do you have a link? I Ddon't don't see it on eBay? Or is it already gone?
Note that the scope's input capacitance will screw up the input impedance badly so you'd have to adjust the readings to take that into account.
Some numbers from my RTB2004:
50 ohm bandwidth -3 dB: 327 MHz
...
How did you get it to 50Ohm?
Has anyone played with looking at modulated signals? I get less that stellar results when looking at even just an AM signal. I've tried the different color modes and settings and can't get a nice clean gradient. From what I understand, scopes labeled as DPO do this well and have an extra memory buffer and processing to do it. I don't think I read anything about the RTB series having this so maybe I just shouldn't expect the performance in this area.I think the density vs. brightness curve could be improved.
Any thoughts?
Joel
Also, is it possible to export captured frames comming from UART decoding?Enable Bus Table - that lets you save captured data, but possibly not as useful as it should be until they fix the UART packet framing bug
I mean, frame by frame to CSV / XLS rows?
Any clue about if they scheduled for releasing firmware update?Rich was saying this month, and this was a fairly early reported issue, and acknowledged., so hopefully that will be fixed.
Still planned for May, but I'll get another update and let everyone know ASAP.Any clue about if they scheduled for releasing firmware update?Rich was saying this month, and this was a fairly early reported issue, and acknowledged., so hopefully that will be fixed.
I had no issues connecting under Win7 ( using Firefox)
I had no issues connecting under Win7 ( using Firefox)
Thanks. I think the next step is to attach the scope to my wireless router and see if I can connect that way instead of direct scope to computer cabling.
My usual back asswards approach to Windows networking issues is to try different things until one works and then work back from that. I wish I had enough networking skills to approach it more systematically.. ::)
If you hook it up directly to the PC, it will not get a DHCP address. Connecting it to your router should fix that problem.
You can hook it up directly to the computer but you'll have to assign it an address, gateway, and subnet mask manually. Much easier to attach it to your LAN's existing DHCP server like any other PC.
If you hook it up directly to the PC, it will not get a DHCP address. Connecting it to your router should fix that problem.
You can hook it up directly to the computer but you'll have to assign it an address, gateway, and subnet mask manually. Much easier to attach it to your LAN's existing DHCP server like any other PC.
OK thanks. That sort of makes sense. In hindsight I should have tried that already ( I will when I get home). But why does it work fine when directly connnected to my Mac laptop? Doesn't a direct Windows box connection support DHCP? It does appear to get assigned an IP address when directly connected to the Windows box (so I assumed DHCP was functioning). Also it would be nice if the manual would spell that out..
Hi mtdoc, Congrats on the new scope! If you have the serial decoding (and the digital channels?) let us know how things compare to whatever you had (serial decoding?) on the DS2072. Thx, EF
I don't know if anybody mentioned that the probes are made by Texas:
.
.
Any comments on the probes? :)
Yeah, they are about as honestly named as Paris, Texas, complete with its own Eiffel Tower. :)I don't know if anybody mentioned that the probes are made by Texas:
.
.
Any comments on the probes? :)
Only that they are not actually in Texas, see below (I'm in Texas). 8)
Maybe he just waits for the first firmware update which -imho- would make sense.
Did Dave give up on a in depth review of this scope?
There's an updated datasheet for the RTB out now, I compared it to the last one and there were 2 changes...
Added to compliance section:
"in line with EN 55011 class A, operation in
residential, commercial and business
areas or in small-size companies is not
covered; therefore the instrument may not
be operated in residential, commercial and
business areas or in small-size companies
unless additional measures are taken to
ensure that EN 55011 class B is complied
with."
(...so I guess that means it has the potential to cause interference in excess of that spec.)
UART decode spec changed: max bitrate officially reduced to 3 Mbps. :-\
Just got mine, looks good. I can't wait to get some spare time and integrate it into Matlab to add the VSA functionality :-+ :popcorn:
Not a 14 bit front end, but still, for low order modulations it should work pretty well with the fast ETH interface!
Going from 8 bits to 10 bits or more doesn't make much difference if you only ever look at waveforms on the screen. If you process those waveforms, or use the scope as a capture device to feed waveforms to an external device (like the above user wanting to feed waveforms into Matlab) it can make a big difference.Just got mine, looks good. I can't wait to get some spare time and integrate it into Matlab to add the VSA functionality :-+ :popcorn:
Not a 14 bit front end, but still, for low order modulations it should work pretty well with the fast ETH interface!
Could you please elaborate what's so special about 10bit DAC? I tried to find any pictures to comparison, but didn't find any _convincing_ evidence showing that 10-12bit scopes make a huge difference. I also noticed in some specs there are "effective number of DAC bits" which is often not even 8! So, looks like it's not always possible to make effective use of all the DAC bits available.
I'm asking because I'm making a decision -- to buy a cheaper scope from GW Instek (like gds-2074e), or to go with rtb2004. So, any pictures are welcome!
Just got mine, looks good. I can't wait to get some spare time and integrate it into Matlab to add the VSA functionality :-+ :popcorn:
Not a 14 bit front end, but still, for low order modulations it should work pretty well with the fast ETH interface!
Could you please elaborate what's so special about 10bit DAC? I tried to find any pictures to comparison, but didn't find any _convincing_ evidence showing that 10-12bit scopes make a huge difference. I also noticed in some specs there are "effective number of DAC bits" which is often not even 8! So, looks like it's not always possible to make effective use of all the DAC bits available.
I'm asking because I'm making a decision -- to buy a cheaper scope from GW Instek (like gds-2074e), or to go with rtb2004. So, any pictures are welcome!
Could you please elaborate what's so special about 10bit DAC?
There's an updated datasheet for the RTB out now, I compared it to the last one ...
UART decode spec changed: max bitrate officially reduced to 3 Mbps. :-\
The RTB2K screen has 800 pixel vertical resolution so you can see at least 9-bits straight up. In general for any higher resolution scope I also find the extra bits useful in the following situations:
- Changing vertical scale after waveform capture, sort of like long memory in the other axis
- FFT
- Nonlinear math (If the RTB2K had any useful math capabilities :()
- Post-processing as mentioned by others
ENOB can be an issue but usually doesn't come into play until higher frequencies, there is a whole world of low-frequency analysis where the extra bits can be handy.
I got it, thanks.Still, I would be very grateful If someone could share any actual data. Like, two zoomed waveforms, one is smoth and nice from rtb2000, another one crude and steppy from an 8bit scope.
What happens if you capture both originally at 200mV/div?
Concerning FFT, the difference is in the noise floor?
And while I'm at it, here is the same signal with each scope in High Resolution mode acquired at 5V/div, zoomed up to 200mV/div.That some pretty strange distortion on the MSO X3024A. Here's your same hi-res measurement on a MSO X3104. Still noisier than the RTB2K, but not distorted.
I used to get similar distortion on my Tek TDS744A if there wasn't enough noise to make the hi-res oversampling work correctly.Interesting. Going from 5V to 200mV makes it 1 bit per division, which pretty much matches the period of the distortion. I think could also be some DNL in the ADC.
I'm curious if 10bits are preserved over the whole bandwidth.
Did Dave give up on a in depth review of this scope?
I would comment that ENOB is more important than the ADC's banner bit-depth spec. And, no scope will ever have ENOB=BoR because there's going to be noise. That's one of the industry's dirty secrets :).
I understand ENOB. What's BoR?
That some pretty strange distortion on the MSO X3024A. Here's your same hi-res measurement on a MSO X3104. Still noisier than the RTB2K, but not distorted.That is interesting that yours is so much better. I don't want to hijack the thread into a long discussion on the MSOX Hires mode so I won't post any more screens on this, but I get a similar result on all four input channels, with two different function gens, switching to 50-ohm termination, etc. Maybe a difference on the 1GHz front-end? My unit is a year out-of-cal, but I'd be surprised if cal would address this at all. I'm inclined to agree with nctnico that there just isn't enough noise on my 5V/div range to make averaging useful.
To optimize the ADC you should zoom all your signals in full-screen when capturing
Try doing a user cal, you'll need enough cables and splitters to make the octopus harness.That some pretty strange distortion on the MSO X3024A. Here's your same hi-res measurement on a MSO X3104. Still noisier than the RTB2K, but not distorted.That is interesting that yours is so much better. I don't want to hijack the thread into a long discussion on the MSOX Hires mode so I won't post any more screens on this, but I get a similar result on all four input channels, with two different function gens, switching to 50-ohm termination, etc. Maybe a difference on the 1GHz front-end? My unit is a year out-of-cal, but I'd be surprised if cal would address this at all. I'm inclined to agree with nctnico that there just isn't enough noise on my 5V/div range to make averaging useful.
Didn't seem possible they would design the scope with such a low rate. Hopefully that gets fixed in the rumored "pro" version of the scope.
I normally try not to intervene because this forum does such a good job of correcting misinformation itself, but your comment caught my attention.Didn't seem possible they would design the scope with such a low rate. Hopefully that gets fixed in the rumored "pro" version of the scope.
I don't think it's a bad scope, but with the current pricing it's now too close to the 3000T. If there is a pro version it will be interesting to see how they position it against the 3000T without lowering the current price of the 'non-Pro' version significantly.
Without including the options this comparison is apples & oranges especially if the Keysight x3000T can be hacked to get the options for free. Besides that the R&S options quickly add several $k where Keysight charges less than 1$k for the most popular ones. AFAIK the R&S has a lower base price but more expensive options compared to Keysight.I normally try not to intervene because this forum does such a good job of correcting misinformation itself, but your comment caught my attention.Didn't seem possible they would design the scope with such a low rate. Hopefully that gets fixed in the rumored "pro" version of the scope.
I don't think it's a bad scope, but with the current pricing it's now too close to the 3000T. If there is a pro version it will be interesting to see how they position it against the 3000T without lowering the current price of the 'non-Pro' version significantly.
Clearly the RTB2000 was designed to compete with the 2000x and DPO2000 from Tek. And with that you get a 10-bit ADC, significantly longer memory, a large, high resolution touch display, significantly lower noise, more SR and (available) bandwidth, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, similar to better update rate, boots faster, standard ethernet, etc, etc. There are few to no specs that those products beat the RTB2000 on and they are priced similarly.
Even when comparing to the x3000T, the RTB2000 gives you a 4x the vertical resolution (10-bit ADC), significantly more memory, a larger, higher resolution display, lower noise, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, standard ethernet and in most cases it costs half the price. I wouldn't call that too close. Does the x3000T have benefits? Sure - more available bandwidth/SR, 50Ohm input and higher update rate. But again, the RTB2000 wasn't designed to compete with the x3000T hence the reason it doesn't have those features.
In the end, value is clearly a personal belief (of which I personally think we stack up extremely well on value), but I wouldn't say the current pricing is too close to the x3000T.
Without including the options this comparison is apples & oranges especially if the Keysight x3000T can be hacked to get the options for free. Besides that the R&S options quickly add several $k where Keysight charges less than 1$k for the most popular ones. AFAIK the R&S has a lower base price but more expensive options compared to Keysight.I normally try not to intervene because this forum does such a good job of correcting misinformation itself, but your comment caught my attention.Didn't seem possible they would design the scope with such a low rate. Hopefully that gets fixed in the rumored "pro" version of the scope.
I don't think it's a bad scope, but with the current pricing it's now too close to the 3000T. If there is a pro version it will be interesting to see how they position it against the 3000T without lowering the current price of the 'non-Pro' version significantly.
Clearly the RTB2000 was designed to compete with the 2000x and DPO2000 from Tek. And with that you get a 10-bit ADC, significantly longer memory, a large, high resolution touch display, significantly lower noise, more SR and (available) bandwidth, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, similar to better update rate, boots faster, standard ethernet, etc, etc. There are few to no specs that those products beat the RTB2000 on and they are priced similarly.
Even when comparing to the x3000T, the RTB2000 gives you a 4x the vertical resolution (10-bit ADC), significantly more memory, a larger, higher resolution display, lower noise, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, standard ethernet and in most cases it costs half the price. I wouldn't call that too close. Does the x3000T have benefits? Sure - more available bandwidth/SR, 50Ohm input and higher update rate. But again, the RTB2000 wasn't designed to compete with the x3000T hence the reason it doesn't have those features.
In the end, value is clearly a personal belief (of which I personally think we stack up extremely well on value), but I wouldn't say the current pricing is too close to the x3000T.
Let me say something about 'hacking' test instruments. It's stealing, it's the same as robbing tools out of a hardware store. When you steal every honest person who buys that product pays extra.This has been debated to death already so let's not start again because there is way more to it than your black&white view.
I think the current 2000X 2 channel pricing is in the $1000 territory, I saw some new units being sold by Fry's for $950 (local in store pick only), so maybe Keysight is getting rid of the 2000X inventory.
Let me say something about 'hacking' test instruments. It's stealing, it's the same as robbing tools out of a hardware store. When you steal every honest person who buys that product pays extra.So you think that once you have paid for something and taken possession, its still not really yours? You are going to have a hard sell trying to convince many people of what you said there. It flies in the face of most definitions of what ownership means. Even most of the people in companies which rely on this kind of product segmentation regard it as more as a cat and mouse game than stealing - and their incomes rely on it. :)
Once you buy a piece of hardware, it is yours to do with as you please. :horse:More accurately if you buy a piece of equipment, and don't agree to any licence conditions that say you don't really fully own the equipment, its yours to do with as you please. Many laws support this view, such as the ones supporting the right to reverse engineer. One or two, like the DMCA in the US, fly against it in some juristictions. Some instruments do come with licence agreements, such as the ones running Windows. Most don't.
I see your point and I'll be the first to admit the option pricing, on any Tek/Keysight/R&S/LeCroy scope, can sometimes be hard to stomach, especially for a hobbyist.Without including the options this comparison is apples & oranges especially if the Keysight x3000T can be hacked to get the options for free. Besides that the R&S options quickly add several $k where Keysight charges less than 1$k for the most popular ones. AFAIK the R&S has a lower base price but more expensive options compared to Keysight.I normally try not to intervene because this forum does such a good job of correcting misinformation itself, but your comment caught my attention.Didn't seem possible they would design the scope with such a low rate. Hopefully that gets fixed in the rumored "pro" version of the scope.
I don't think it's a bad scope, but with the current pricing it's now too close to the 3000T. If there is a pro version it will be interesting to see how they position it against the 3000T without lowering the current price of the 'non-Pro' version significantly.
Clearly the RTB2000 was designed to compete with the 2000x and DPO2000 from Tek. And with that you get a 10-bit ADC, significantly longer memory, a large, high resolution touch display, significantly lower noise, more SR and (available) bandwidth, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, similar to better update rate, boots faster, standard ethernet, etc, etc. There are few to no specs that those products beat the RTB2000 on and they are priced similarly.
Even when comparing to the x3000T, the RTB2000 gives you a 4x the vertical resolution (10-bit ADC), significantly more memory, a larger, higher resolution display, lower noise, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, standard ethernet and in most cases it costs half the price. I wouldn't call that too close. Does the x3000T have benefits? Sure - more available bandwidth/SR, 50Ohm input and higher update rate. But again, the RTB2000 wasn't designed to compete with the x3000T hence the reason it doesn't have those features.
In the end, value is clearly a personal belief (of which I personally think we stack up extremely well on value), but I wouldn't say the current pricing is too close to the x3000T.
I couldn't be happier with my RTB2004. As has been said repeatedly, the promo deal was a no brainer.:-+
As for R&S - their previous attempt to get Dave to pull hacking info on an outdated product from the forum appears to mean they are taking a harder line. Perhaps that will change. I almost wonder if their screaming good no-brainer promotional deal on the RTB2004 (at least for the US market) was an attempt to put fully loaded scopes in the hands of earlier adopters who might otherwise be tempted to investigate the hacking possibilities...No ulterior motives - we honestly wanted to get the product in to the hands of early adopters. And for those early adopters we have some other cool ideas planned - stay tuned ;D
I couldn't be happier with my RTB2004. As has been said repeatedly, the promo deal was a no brainer.:-+As for R&S - their previous attempt to get Dave to pull hacking info on an outdated product from the forum appears to mean they are taking a harder line. Perhaps that will change. I almost wonder if their screaming good no-brainer promotional deal on the RTB2004 (at least for the US market) was an attempt to put fully loaded scopes in the hands of earlier adopters who might otherwise be tempted to investigate the hacking possibilities...No ulterior motives - we honestly wanted to get the product in to the hands of early adopters. And for those early adopters we have some other cool ideas planned - stay tuned ;D
With respect to the hacking - not my place to bless or not bless the activity, but as you said, you own the equipment. Each person/company will make their own decisions based on that.
-Rich
Rich, is there anything being looked at to make these (expensive for hobbyists, as you admit) decode options better? I'm mainly thinking of the bi-directional UART/SPI decode without using both decode slots, which can be a bit limiting.Hi Hydron - there are things being looked at, but it isn't something I can promise at this point for the RTB2000. But the excellent feedback from folks like you, Robaroni, MikesElectricStuff, MJLorton, WattCircuit, etc, etc (sorry I am forgetting many people) has been very helpful and will certainly help shape future enhancements for the RTB and other products.
This is not a dig at the RTB2k - it's clear that every brand has their advantages (e.g. KS for faster and more consistent update rate, better math options, R&S for screen size, resolution and memory depth) and I'm very happy with my launch offer unit, especially with the mention that more goodies may be yet to come!
So are our options expensive? Maybe. But we've certainly tried to follow the industry norm of bundling to help with that pricing. And again, value is a personal opinion, but I don't believe we are priced out of line with the competition and typically bring an even better performance for a similar price.But now you are putting a B brand Hameg scope next to A brand scopes from Keysight, Tektronix & Lecroy and try to justify the very high price. But on what is that based??? For example: If you buy the MSO option for Keysight, Lecroy, Tektronix (*) you get a well built probe and not a flimsy hobby-Bob ribbon cable. Also Keysight (>3000 series), Lecroy and Tektronix have a large portfolio with probing solutions. For example: a couple of years ago I bought a Tektronix scope + current probe for a customer where the current probe was more expensive than the scope itself. And lets not forget to look east and see what the Asian TE brands are coming up with nowadays.
*On my soapbox*So are our options expensive? Maybe. But we've certainly tried to follow the industry norm of bundling to help with that pricing. And again, value is a personal opinion, but I don't believe we are priced out of line with the competition and typically bring an even better performance for a similar price.But now you are putting a B brand Hameg scope next to A brand scopes from Keysight, Tektronix & Lecroy and try to justify the very high price. But on what is that based??? For example: If you buy the MSO option for Keysight, Lecroy, Tektronix (*) you get a well built probe and not a flimsy hobby-Bob ribbon cable. Also Keysight (>3000 series), Lecroy and Tektronix have a large portfolio with probing solutions. For example: a couple of years ago I bought a Tektronix scope + current probe for a customer where the current probe was more expensive than the scope itself. And lets not forget to look east and see what the Asian TE brands are coming up with nowadays.
If I look at the RTB2000 it sits somewhere between Rigol/Siglent and Keysight/Lecroy/Tektronix and should be priced accordingly. It makes no sense to buy a B brand if the same money buys an A brand.
* For completeness: also GW Instek, Rigol and Siglent.
If you want to charge the same like current Keysight & Tektronix offerings it has to be just as polished and that is what is missing on the RTB2000.
Current Tektronix offerings in this category have some serious shortcomings IMHO. Current Keysight offerings have some advantages but also some shortcomings as has been pointed out by several people.
Different companies likely view the hacking differently. If you read between the lines, it seems pretty clear that Chinese companies such as Rigol and Siglent give their tacit approval and may even count on it in their product development and pricing.Put Rigol in that basket for sure but not Siglent. :P
But you have to admit it does help sales a lot! If Siglent was really making an effort to close the holes in the SSA3000 and SDG2000 they would have done it by now.Different companies likely view the hacking differently. If you read between the lines, it seems pretty clear that Chinese companies such as Rigol and Siglent give their tacit approval and may even count on it in their product development and pricing.Put Rigol in that basket for sure but not Siglent. :P
Numerous FW releases have attempted to close avenues for hacking in Siglent products however once users get a taste for the goodies liberated their efforts redouble to get them back again.
Those 2 series ^ are exactly the ones that have had a few attempts to close the gate.But you have to admit it does help sales a lot! If Siglent was really making an effort to close the holes in the SSA3000 and SDG2000 they would have done it by now.Different companies likely view the hacking differently. If you read between the lines, it seems pretty clear that Chinese companies such as Rigol and Siglent give their tacit approval and may even count on it in their product development and pricing.Put Rigol in that basket for sure but not Siglent. :P
Numerous FW releases have attempted to close avenues for hacking in Siglent products however once users get a taste for the goodies liberated their efforts redouble to get them back again.
*On my soapbox*
Waste of time for me to reply to you on this, but you don't have any clue what you are talking about. R&S has been in business longer than any of the brands you mention above, even HP. The RTB2000 is a R&S product through and through - using R&S designed ASICs, new SW, etc. Is the Hameg team involved? Yep. But they made great scopes before and now they have the full benefit of the R&S legacy to work with (not to mention groups from both teams worked on this, including people that have designed some of the highest performing RF gear in the world).
And to your point about Rigol/Siglent/GW/Hantek/whomever - I have no problems with them. But they aren't innovators. You might complain that we (Tek/Keysight/LeCroy/R&S) charge a lot for our options, but that helps to fund true product innovation. R&S was the first company to bring 1M wfms/s to market, the first with a digital trigger, the first with a reasonably priced 10-bit ADC, the first with graticule markings, etc, etc. I could go on and on for Tek/Keysight/LeCroy too. All have had many firsts (where you do you think your serial decode and triggering came from - not the "B Brands"). Eventually those things may be copied by the "B Brands" and people will benefit when they buy them at cheap prices. But don't confuse copying with true product innovation (and I'll admit - price engineering is an innovation, but it would be a sad day if that was the only place people innovated - you'd never see anything new).
So keep trolling the Tek/Keysight/LeCroy/R&S threads :-DD
*Off my soapbox.*
-Rich
Hi Sinisa,
*On my soapbox*
Waste of time for me to reply to you on this, but you don't have any clue what you are talking about. R&S has been in business longer than any of the brands you mention above, even HP. The RTB2000 is a R&S product through and through - using R&S designed ASICs, new SW, etc. Is the Hameg team involved? Yep. But they made great scopes before and now they have the full benefit of the R&S legacy to work with (not to mention groups from both teams worked on this, including people that have designed some of the highest performing RF gear in the world).
And to your point about Rigol/Siglent/GW/Hantek/whomever - I have no problems with them. But they aren't innovators. You might complain that we (Tek/Keysight/LeCroy/R&S) charge a lot for our options, but that helps to fund true product innovation. R&S was the first company to bring 1M wfms/s to market, the first with a digital trigger, the first with a reasonably priced 10-bit ADC, the first with graticule markings, etc, etc. I could go on and on for Tek/Keysight/LeCroy too. All have had many firsts (where you do you think your serial decode and triggering came from - not the "B Brands"). Eventually those things may be copied by the "B Brands" and people will benefit when they buy them at cheap prices. But don't confuse copying with true product innovation (and I'll admit - price engineering is an innovation, but it would be a sad day if that was the only place people innovated - you'd never see anything new).
So keep trolling the Tek/Keysight/LeCroy/R&S threads :-DD
*Off my soapbox.*
-Rich
Rich,
I appreciate your candor, although I'm sure many will find it arrogant.... But it does show exactly what I have problem with: apparently there exist premium brands club that seems to think they are above the market rules.... You seem to confuse certain terms, and also what you are talking about... Big brands are comparing products between themselves, position them on market, and do all kinds of strategic things in their fight for market position... So some of the thinking seeps into vocabulary of people that should deal with customers... And there is a complete disconnect...
And since you were honest so will I be.. And blunt, maybe...
Customers don't care what do you think, and how great you think your equipment is... In one hand they have a list of specs that instrument should be able to do for them to do their job. In other hand they have small paper with budget. They also have certain expectations for support structure. If they find instrument that fills the need for half the price, they will go for it.
B- brands are eating into your market from lover end... And slowly getting better and better.. For many people they might just be good enough, for simple things they do..
Not everybody does signal integrity checks on USB3 bus.. And RTB series is not for that market either..
Your company actually own the brand that was ONLY high quality affordable alternative to them (HAMEG) and then you increased prices...
Which is OK, it is corporate decision to work on higher profit products.. That is fine, it's company's prerogative..
But then you go off the cliff with whining about glorious past, and innovation, and how customers disrespect you comparing your products with others you consider unworthy...
Yeah, tough luck... We don't care...
It goes like this:
1. There were many great companies that went bust because they did mistakes.. They were well respected but they misread market and didn't sell enough. They don't exist anymore and nobody cares.. Welcome to capitalism.
2. Innovation... LOL, I love when marketing goes crazy with a phrase and think that it means something to us... Quick explanation: It is called R&D, research and development of new products that are hopefully better or somehow more desirable than products from competition..
It is not something that makes you special. It is normal part of how market works (again, capitalism) and it is COST OF BUSINESS. YOUR cost of business.
3. If somebody stole your trade secrets, patents etc, by all means sue them. That's stealing.
Whining " we were the first to do this and that.." is just pathetic. Well, you're not anymore.. And aren't you ashamed that you're making Mixed signal scope... Because that innovation came from HP if I remember right, not R&S or HAMEG.. In that regard you're same as chinese brands..
But wait, you didn't steal from HP. Your company "got inspiration" from their idea, and developed their own platform, with lot of hard work... And did fantastic, commendable job.
And nobody said that Hameg "stole the idea". They were ecstatic they will be able to afford great instrument..
If Chinese companies stole your code that's stealing. But if they "got inspired" by your products, and then did their own honest R/D work, and made a product based on their own hard work, you can't complain. It it is what all companies do. It is what your company does. Unless it is ok for German or USA company to do so, only Chinese can't do it.... ??? Double standards ??
Again I have great respect for your company, I own Hameg equipment, and would like to be able to own more... But it's not very likely with current pricing policy, sorry..
Best regards,
Sinisa
Hi Sinisa,
First, I appreciate your reply and I didn't mean to come off arrogant. I apologize if I did. Believe me, in my 16 years in scopes, I've always been coming from a non market leader position, so I know there are lots of options out there (which is a great thing). It's also why I said I have nothing against the "B Brands" (BTW - note I used quotes on that every time - not my words). I think Rigol/Siglent/GW etc make some great products.
Second, my point (which may have been lost in the long reply) was to nctnico - I've been on the this forum for a very long time (since before Agilent ever sent an x-series to Dave Jones - over seven years). Sometimes things are lost in what is typed and I typically give people the benefit of the doubt that it didn't come across right. But I've seen nctnico for some time and because of what I've seen I didn't give him the benefit of the doubt and explained why things are priced like they are, especially for companies like us or Tek/Keysight/LeCroy. Perhaps I should have given him the benefit of the doubt. My point in saying "we did this first" or "they did that first" is we are all working to innovate (so I wanted to give some examples). The benefit is it trickles down. But innovation costs money. Hence my reply.
In the end, you are absolutely right, the customer determines the value of anything. Clearly not every product is perfect and one may be a better fit for someone than another. I just took offense to nctnico implying we make a lower quality/lower capability product than others. Definitely wasn't trying to be arrogant.
-Rich
Edit - I also didn't mean to imply that other products aren't worthy. That wasn't my intention, but looks like it came off that way. My point in comparing to the Tek or Keysight was to help explain some of the pricing misperceptions people may have had on the RTB - it's actually priced quite competitive to the products we are targeting.
My point in comparing to the Tek or Keysight was to help explain some of the pricing misperceptions people may have had on the RTB - it's actually priced quite competitive to the products we are targeting.
Yes. R&S aren't trying to compete with the lesser brands.
Perhaps it's fair to compare the R&S RTB2002 to the Owon 14bit touch screen model ;D
If I look at the RTB2000 it sits somewhere between Rigol/Siglent and Keysight/Lecroy/Tektronix and should be priced accordingly. It makes no sense to buy a B brand if the same money buys an A brand.
Siglent get close with SDS2304X and leave the rest behind with 140 Mpts memory depth.If I look at the RTB2000 it sits somewhere between Rigol/Siglent and Keysight/Lecroy/Tektronix and should be priced accordingly. It makes no sense to buy a B brand if the same money buys an A brand.
For the RTB2004? *lol* That is ridiculous.
I don't know, where you got the impression, that the RTB2004 is a "Hameg" scope, imo it is not. It is a decent R&S scope.
And it plays definitly not in the league as Rigol or Siglent, it plays higher.
Or can you pint me to a scope from these Companies, which can do:
- 4 analog inputs
- 10 bit ADC
- 10" High Res screen
- 300MHz
- MSO
No?
That's a pity ....
I highlighted the words you obviously missed. Also 10bits doesn't do you any good if you can't utilise them. As I already wrote in the 14 bit Owon unboxing video thread: 10 bit would be great if you can lock the front-end division factor and digitally zoom in vertically when in run mode to avoid overdrive effects and when using input filtering (not available on the RTB2004) to isolate small signals from a large signal.If I look at the RTB2000 it sits somewhere between Rigol/Siglent and Keysight/Lecroy/Tektronix and should be priced accordingly. It makes no sense to buy a B brand if the same money buys an A brand.
For the RTB2004? *lol* That is ridiculous.
I don't know, where you got the impression, that the RTB2004 is a "Hameg" scope, imo it is not. It is a decent R&S scope.
And it plays definitly not in the league as Rigol or Siglent, it plays higher.
Siglent get close with SDS2304X and leave the rest behind with 140 Mpts memory depth.If I look at the RTB2000 it sits somewhere between Rigol/Siglent and Keysight/Lecroy/Tektronix and should be priced accordingly. It makes no sense to buy a B brand if the same money buys an A brand.
For the RTB2004? *lol* That is ridiculous.
I don't know, where you got the impression, that the RTB2004 is a "Hameg" scope, imo it is not. It is a decent R&S scope.
And it plays definitly not in the league as Rigol or Siglent, it plays higher.
Or can you pint me to a scope from these Companies, which can do:
- 4 analog inputs
- 10 bit ADC
- 10" High Res screen
- 300MHz
- MSO
No?
That's a pity ....
That's for western markets ^ in the east there's SDS3000 models with 10" display, 4 Gsa/s and up to 1 GHz but sold as LeCroy WS3000 in the western markets.
Die he show all the license keys? :o
It can be used as input for determining the algorithm used to generate the keys and liberate the options.Die he show all the license keys? :oSo what? It only works on his scope.
It can be used as input for determining the algorithm used to generate the keys and liberate the options.
What's the MTBF of the Siglent? Build quality? How's resale compared to R&S? Personally I think the R&S is a lot more polished with a nicer layout and the fan noise is much lower - I won't tolerate noisy instruments, it's a deal killer for me. Didn't Dave say you could hear the fan bearings in the Siglent?This is not the right thread to examine your points/claims in detail other than to say that all scopes are going the way of mass produced consumer items where little repair is done at board level. Product failures are rare, build quality as good as anything else and I've seen more fan replacement threads for old Teks than any other brand but no brand is immune to them.
I will pay more for Tek, Agilent, R&S, etc. because I know their instrument philosophy. They're known for quality and year after year these instruments perform. I've bought chips for Tek scopes 15 years after their introduction, will Siglent be around in 15 years? Will they still have parts inventories?
Lots of cost factors, I've found just going by the purchase price doesn't tell the whole story - penny wise dollar foolish-.
What's the MTBF of the Siglent? Build quality? How's resale compared to R&S? Personally I think the R&S is a lot more polished with a nicer layout and the fan noise is much lower - I won't tolerate noisy instruments, it's a deal killer for me. Didn't Dave say you could hear the fan bearings in the Siglent?This is not the right thread to examine your points/claims in detail other than to say that all scopes are going the way of mass produced consumer items where little repair is done at board level. Product failures are rare, build quality as good as anything else and I've seen more fan replacement threads for old Teks than any other brand but no brand is immune to them.
I will pay more for Tek, Agilent, R&S, etc. because I know their instrument philosophy. They're known for quality and year after year these instruments perform. I've bought chips for Tek scopes 15 years after their introduction, will Siglent be around in 15 years? Will they still have parts inventories?
Lots of cost factors, I've found just going by the purchase price doesn't tell the whole story - penny wise dollar foolish-.
We all think the new kid on the block MUST have something suspect about it but to gain traction in this market and develop any reputation they need do things right.
Without this competition how much would you be paying for the A brands ? :scared:
I'm among those stupid people who buy high end scopes because they've done so well in their field that they can buy whatever they want.Ofcourse it is nice if you don't have to care about budget or ROI (return on investment) but most of us do. You can buy about three B-brand scopes for the price of one A-brand scope. With carefull selection you can avoid the lemons and still save quite a bit of money and/or upgrade to the latest technology / bells & whistles much sooner. With the fast pace technology is moving forward it is just not realistic to think a scope is still up-to-date after 5 years. Over the past decade I have owned my oscilloscopes for about two years on average.
Over the past decade I have owned my oscilloscopes for about two years on average.I used your quote as an opportunity to make my own list. Indeed since 2006 I had 8 scopes :wtf:
I'm among those stupid people who buy high end scopes because they've done so well in their field that they can buy whatever they want.Ofcourse it is nice if you don't have to care about budget or ROI (return on investment) but most of us do. You can buy about three B-brand scopes for the price of one A-brand scope. With carefull selection you can avoid the lemons and still save quite a bit of money and/or upgrade to the latest technology / bells & whistles much sooner. With the fast pace technology is moving forward it is just not realistic to think a scope is still up-to-date after 5 years. Over the past decade I have owned my oscilloscopes for about two years on average.
Over the past decade I have owned my oscilloscopes for about two years on average.I used your quote as an opportunity to make my own list. Indeed since 2006 I had 8 scopes :wtf:
If I count out three scopes
1) the nightmarish crappy Owon in 2007 (I switched in on and played with it for maybe 5 minutes - then it was placed on Ebay immediately and was luckily sold quickly)
2) the analog Tek scope which I had from 2000 until 2010 and which was kept as a second scope for a long time
3) the mistakenly purchased Keysight DSOX2004 scope (sold immediately after arrival and replaced by a 3000 series scope)
it is two years in average here too.
I guess now it is time for a new scope for keeping the pace :)
Well if Rohde and Schwarz adds crucial functionality to the next firmware (like bidirectional serial decoders, more trigger options, more advanced math options for just naming three areas) and pay attention to some details (already addressed in this and the other R&S thread) there will be a RTB2004 soon on my bench .... otherwise I will keep my Keysight MSOX3024 - as the crippled RTB2004 with often less functionality as low cost China stuff is of no interest for me. Touchscreen / UI / fast boot time and 10 bit are nice - but math and triggers are essential - there is no excuse this is missing in a >7000 Euro scope.
There are new features becoming available all the time. For one of my projects input filtering and deep memory where extremely handy so I got a scope which has those features. I'm not keeping my old scopes so money isn't sitting on a shelve devaluating.
I design circuits for a living and for that I need tools. Remember: you need to spend money to make money. As long as the write-off on equipment is far less than the profits (in terms of time saved and/or enable to take on a project) there is no problem losing money on test equipment. I always say test equipment devaluates faster than a car and my buying strategy is adjusted accordingly.There are new features becoming available all the time. For one of my projects input filtering and deep memory where extremely handy so I got a scope which has those features. I'm not keeping my old scopes so money isn't sitting on a shelve devaluating.
One project? So you couldn't have done it without a new scope?
You bought a scope you kept a couple of years then sold at a loss, you already lost money. Whats the ROI?
I design circuits for a living and for that I need tools. Remember: you need to spend money to make money. As long as the write-off on equipment is far less than the profits (in terms of time saved and/or enable to take on a project) there is no problem losing money on test equipment. I always say test equipment devaluates faster than a car and my buying strategy is adjusted accordingly.There are new features becoming available all the time. For one of my projects input filtering and deep memory where extremely handy so I got a scope which has those features. I'm not keeping my old scopes so money isn't sitting on a shelve devaluating.
One project? So you couldn't have done it without a new scope?
You bought a scope you kept a couple of years then sold at a loss, you already lost money. Whats the ROI?
Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.Well, yes at least definitely the Owon.
Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.That is not a fair comparison since you bought the RTB2004 for a very very special price. Normally that configuration costs over 3 times more.
So, let's see, I spent less for my RTB2004 than you have so far - gee how will I ever cope with such a "crippled" useless scope? I guess I'll just have to make do, poor me....
This! this was a loss leading exercise, that people can no longer get, nor could they outside usa.Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.That is not a fair comparison since you bought the RTB2004 for a very very special price. Normally that configuration costs over 3 times more.
So, let's see, I spent less for my RTB2004 than you have so far - gee how will I ever cope with such a "crippled" useless scope? I guess I'll just have to make do, poor me....
Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.Well, yes at least definitely the Owon.
The other scopes were not. To be honest: many years ago I was not ready to spend a few thousand bucks for a scope. My demands grew with my projects and as I am making money with these projects I was able to purchase better scopes which fulfil my needs better for more sophisticated projects.
As I always purchased with a discount and sold the equipment later often with profit, I could easily afford that approach. In fact any scope I purchased was purchased at least 15% below street price. I am sure I can sell my Keysight MSOX3024a any day and I will receive at least what I paid for - probably even more. So I used it literally "for free" for the last 30 month.
Thus my measurement equipment was growing with my requirements - and I frequently had newer technology at my hand - for almost no cost.
(btw: thats the positive by selecting measurement devices from respected brands: they do have a low loss of value over the time)
In retrospect: would I prefer the other alternative?
Purchasing a scope years ago which probably fulfil my needs for the next 10 years? No! That will be expensive and in reality I would start looking for new stuff after a few years anyway because something will be missing.
As I said: as I work for a living, this approach (at least for me) was the better way: I purchase what I need now and tomorrow and sell it if it does not fulfil my needs anymore to get newer and better stuff.
Note: the above applies to business related stuff. For consumer stuff for private usage this is much different. So you better purchase the best amplifier and/or speaker or camera etc. you can afford. Because then you enjoy right from the beginning. It just don't make sense to buy e.g. crappy speakers and buy new less-crappy speakers a few years later until you then end with good speakers after 20 years: you just lost 20 years with crappy stuff, paid much more at the end and you will regret you did not took the good stuff right from the beginning.
Edit: because I really was curious and wanted to know, I added up all my scope purchases and sellings (including all costs such as shipping and Ebay fees) from 2007. I did not count in the analog scope I already had before and also not the current Keysight. Result: I made 328 Euro profit between 2007 and 2015. Thus, a frequent update of some gear might even earn you money if you carefully select.
Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.That is not a fair comparison since you bought the RTB2004 for a very very special price. Normally that configuration costs over 3 times more.
So, let's see, I spent less for my RTB2004 than you have so far - gee how will I ever cope with such a "crippled" useless scope? I guess I'll just have to make do, poor me....
This! this was a loss leading exercise, that people can no longer get, nor could they outside usa.Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.That is not a fair comparison since you bought the RTB2004 for a very very special price. Normally that configuration costs over 3 times more.
So, let's see, I spent less for my RTB2004 than you have so far - gee how will I ever cope with such a "crippled" useless scope? I guess I'll just have to make do, poor me....
Does the x3000T have benefits? Sure - more available bandwidth/SR, 50Ohm input and higher update rate.More importantly, the 3000T has an active probe interface that the MSOX2000/RTB2000 scopes lack. This is a pretty substantial difference, the value of which will become obvious the first time you try to figure out why an oscillator isn't working right, or sometimes doesn't start up up or remain stable...
Simple question regarding the RTB2002 70Mhz with R2S-SPI extension,
wouldn't 2 channels (and bandwidth) limit SPI-decoding in some way against the 4-channel version? Is it necessary or better to have a 4-channel version for that?
If you can do without additional analog channels the 2-channel scope with SSPI decoding (frame decoding by clock idle time) will work as well as a regular 3-wire SPI.
...
New FW is up:Not checked it yet but if the release notes cover everything they've fixed so far that's pretty disappointing
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2004/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2004/)
Not checked it yet but if the release notes cover everything they've fixed so far that's pretty disappointing
Not checked it yet but if the release notes cover everything they've fixed so far that's pretty disappointingAgreed, though I will try the new F/W tonight to see if anything was fixed but not mentioned.
Rich, can you give us some idea of the timeline and plan for further patches? I have found and reported further issues which aren't even mentioned in the release notes (even under "known issues") and there are no functional improvements in this release.This poor guy Rich has to do deal with this in his spare time (and he is only responsible for the R&S US market) where nobody from the R&S headquarter in Germany ever bothered to say hello or to comment here. I would have expected either substantial firmware improvement and function adaption to make allow the RTB2004 to shine in its market segment or at least an official comment on how R&S want to proceed/deal with our input. Instead: nothing but silence.
No need to feel pity for me ;DRich, can you give us some idea of the timeline and plan for further patches? I have found and reported further issues which aren't even mentioned in the release notes (even under "known issues") and there are no functional improvements in this release.This poor guy Rich has to do deal with this in his spare time (and he is only responsible for the R&S US market) where nobody from the R&S headquarter in Germany ever bothered to say hello or to comment here. I would have expected either substantial firmware improvement and function adaption to make allow the RTB2004 to shine in its market segment or at least an official comment on how R&S want to proceed/deal with our input. Instead: nothing but silence.
Imho this is pretty lame from R&S but typical for many non-customer-oriented companies (which can be found much more frequent in Europe than in the US .... which might be the reason why Rich from R&S US is present here in his spare time - btw: kudos to you Rich, we really appreciate this!).
For the R&S headquarter in Munich/Germany we -here at EEVblog- are probably to minor/unimportant to mind.... (though two people at least visited Mike .... )
This poor guy Rich has to do deal with this in his spare time (and he is only responsible for the R&S US market) where nobody from the R&S headquarter in Germany ever bothered to say hello or to comment here. I would have expected either substantial firmware improvement and function adaption to make allow the RTB2004 to shine in its market segment or at least an official comment on how R&S want to proceed/deal with our input. Instead: nothing but silence.
Imho this is pretty lame from R&S but typical for many non-customer-oriented companies (which can be found much more frequent in Europe than in the US .... which might be the reason why Rich from R&S US is present here in his spare time - btw: kudos to you Rich, we really appreciate this!).
For the R&S headquarter in Munich/Germany we -here at EEVblog- are probably to minor/unimportant to mind.... (though two people at least visited Mike .... )
So after upgrading to the latest firmware version I thought I would run the Self Alignment routine.Hi skench - no problem. If the unit passed the second time it is fine.
It failed with this message:
Channel: 1
Alignment not possible.
ERROR-ID: 201-59.1.23014
I followed the instruction to the letter.
I then retried but with a terminator on Channel 1 input and then the Self Alignment passed.
Do I have a problem?
Thanks
That RTB2000 firmware update seems to have sucked all the enthusiasm right out of the room. :( The thread was clear over on the 3rd page.This posting has some complaints about R&S leaving much to be desired when it comes to firmware updates and completeness on their budget equipment:
Hello,
@Markus Freidhof
Hello,
@Markus Freidhof
Is a sample in memory 10 bits?
I am sorry that I have no chance to get a good early promo price.
Perhaps Rohde & Schwarz don't like people that can pronounce Rohde & Schwarz correct.
Best regards
egonotto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er3lc0_ahcY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er3lc0_ahcY)Are contestants from the US excluded? They already had the chance to buy this scope for a very much reduced price. Anyway it would be nice to see this scope go to someone who could really use it :-+
K0 (demo) option (see screenshot). Anyone know what this is, cannot find any info in the documentation or R&S website.
So nobody wants to keep it? :box:I am keeping the other one :)
I also have one to give away but haven't yet thought of a good way to do it & very busy atm.
OK, I hadn't noticed you owned two. ;)So nobody wants to keep it? :box:I am keeping the other one :)
Hi, just got in my RTB2004 and am having a problem with probe calibration on channel 1. Whatever I try, switching probe from 1x to 10x or anything else in the channel settings, I always get - Probe Adjust Warning: Signal does not match. -. I don't have this problem on the other 3 channels and all channel settings are the same. Different probes make no difference either.
Anyone seen this?
Hi, just got in my RTB2004 and am having a problem with probe calibration on channel 1. Whatever I try, switching probe from 1x to 10x or anything else in the channel settings, I always get - Probe Adjust Warning: Signal does not match. -. I don't have this problem on the other 3 channels and all channel settings are the same. Different probes make no difference either.
Anyone seen this?
Hi ... as far as i could see the signal seems to be detected well 2.5V and 1kHz.
Trigger level seems to be low ... I didn´t have this message on my RTB since i have it.
I also have one to give away but haven't yet thought of a good way to do it & very busy atm.
I'm probably going to limit it to Europe anyway.I also have one to give away but haven't yet thought of a good way to do it & very busy atm.
in case dave nominates someone from europe, donate yours so no customs >:D
I'm probably going to limit it to Europe anyway.I also have one to give away but haven't yet thought of a good way to do it & very busy atm.
in case dave nominates someone from europe, donate yours so no customs >:D
...with luck I might even get round to doing it before then...I'm probably going to limit it to Europe anyway.I also have one to give away but haven't yet thought of a good way to do it & very busy atm.
in case dave nominates someone from europe, donate yours so no customs >:D
No duties is only valid if done before Brexit... >:D :-DD
Pattern Generator has failed again requiring me to do a factory reset. Anyone else has this problem?
Does R&S have an official place for bug reports?
I also have one to give away but haven't yet thought of a good way to do it & very busy atm.
Apologies of I missed this but a search doesn't find it. Is there a bandwidth hack for the RTB2004?
Dave on EEVblab showed a conceptual man-in-the-middle hardware hack on the chip controlling the bandwidth.
The same trick is potentially usable for the RTB as well - I believe it uses the same part: http://www.ti.com/product/LMH6518 (http://www.ti.com/product/LMH6518)Dave on EEVblab showed a conceptual man-in-the-middle hardware hack on the chip controlling the bandwidth.
Nope, This was for the HMO1202.
https://www.eevblog.com/2016/05/13/eevblog-879-rs-hmo1202-scope-bandwidth-hack-investigation/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2016/05/13/eevblog-879-rs-hmo1202-scope-bandwidth-hack-investigation/)
Apologies of I missed this but a search doesn't find it. Is there a bandwidth hack for the RTB2004?
None that I am aware of. This is a brand new scope! Most who have it here probably have the full 350MHz bandwidth already - due to the promotional launch deal.
I'm not.Apologies of I missed this but a search doesn't find it. Is there a bandwidth hack for the RTB2004?
None that I am aware of. This is a brand new scope! Most who have it here probably have the full 350MHz bandwidth already - due to the promotional launch deal.
Likely true.
This is not a cheap scope, it's popularity on the forum is mostly related due to the promotional deal. Was a huge marketing win for R&S.
Now, i own the 70Mhz version without anything...
This is not a cheap scope, it's popularity on the forum is mostly related due to the promotional deal. Was a huge marketing win for R&S.Its only a marketing win if these scopes sold at cost stimulate a lot of sales of scopes at a healthy profit. We've seen it create a lot of buzz around the product, but we'll never know how it really works out for R&S. Giving away scopes seems to be the flavour of the month among marketing tactics. ;)
This is not a cheap scope, it's popularity on the forum is mostly related due to the promotional deal. Was a huge marketing win for R&S.Its only a marketing win if these scopes sold at cost stimulate a lot of sales of scopes at a healthy profit. We've seen it create a lot of buzz around the product, but we'll never know how it really works out for R&S. Giving away scopes seems to be the flavour of the month among marketing tactics. ;)
Now, i own the 70Mhz version without anything...
May I ask where you have bought it?
I'm looking for one as well.
Thanks,
Andreas
Now, i own the 70Mhz version without anything...
May I ask where you have bought it?
I'm looking for one as well.
Thanks,
Andreas
http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm)
I'm not.Apologies of I missed this but a search doesn't find it. Is there a bandwidth hack for the RTB2004?
None that I am aware of. This is a brand new scope! Most who have it here probably have the full 350MHz bandwidth already - due to the promotional launch deal.
Likely true.
This is not a cheap scope, it's popularity on the forum is mostly related due to the promotional deal. Was a huge marketing win for R&S.
Now, i own the 70Mhz version without anything...
And, I LOVE IT! :clap:
But for now, i'm completely broke. :phew:
;D
This scope is so good that even the 70 meg is worth it. Enjoy your scope!Yes, that's right. Thank you. :)
Anyone annoyed about the handle as me?
Whenever i'm trying to carry the scope somewhere I feel that it's so easy to slip out from my hand.
Nope. I'm super serious.Looking at an image of the scope I have to agree such handles don't offer a really firm grip.
I'd be happy to swap it for a DS1074Z with you. The handle on that is awesome.
Anyone annoyed about the handle as me?My suspicions are confirmed.
Whenever i'm trying to carry the scope somewhere I feel that it's so easy to slip out from my hand.
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/rtb2004/Rohde_&_Schwarz-rtb2004-b5.jpg)Out with the drill and add a rope handle to it.
Not sure I like the rear handle, seems pretty basic for an expensive scope. I'd much rather something to wrap fingers around. :-//
Looks easy to drop. :scared: :-BROKE
I just took a look at the RTB2000 R&S web page and checked the dates on all the documentation. Nothing updated since the first week of June when the firmware came out:
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/rtb2000-productstartpage_63493-266306.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/rtb2000-productstartpage_63493-266306.html)
Looks like R&S has moved on to other projects. :(
For a new product, with a list of known issues,most of which were not fixed with the first update, it somewhat disappointing that we've seen nothing since.I just took a look at the RTB2000 R&S web page and checked the dates on all the documentation. Nothing updated since the first week of June when the firmware came out:
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/rtb2000-productstartpage_63493-266306.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/rtb2000-productstartpage_63493-266306.html)
Looks like R&S has moved on to other projects. :(
It's been less than 2 months. How often are you expecting updates?
For a new product, with a list of known issues,most of which were not fixed with the first update, it somewhat disappointing that we've seen nothing since.
Maybe they're busy doing some major changes to improve the sluggish UI, maybe.
Am I the only one who finds it mildly amusing to read all those luke-warm to grumbling comments, right under the wildly hyperbolic title which the OP chose for this tread? ::)
It is an excellent scope, just frustrating that it's let down by a few small details, most of which ought to be fixable given the effort.Am I the only one who finds it mildly amusing to read all those luke-warm to grumbling comments, right under the wildly hyperbolic title which the OP chose for this tread? ::)
You are not alone Sir.
It is an excellent scope [...]
It is an excellent scope, just frustrating that it's let down by a few small details, most of which ought to be fixable given the effort.Am I the only one who finds it mildly amusing to read all those luke-warm to grumbling comments, right under the wildly hyperbolic title which the OP chose for this tread? ::)
You are not alone Sir.
I have it next to my MSO3104T, but I find I only use it if I need to see more channels, look at independent triggers, or in some decode circumstances (will be more once the fix the uart decode framing bug).
The reason is simply that I find the UI so annoyingly sluggish compared to the Keysight. I'm sure that users who've only used Rigol.Tek etc. Find it OK, but once you've been using the KS for a while it just feels slow, and the intensity grading is rather less refined.
This is a superb scope in so many ways that the small quirks don't even register. I shot an I2C problem a couple of weeks ago and the scope made it a breeze.Now you sound like the owner of a low end Rigol or Siglent scope!
I'd agree with mike, it's generally excellent...
until you have to do something like integrate a current measurement over time, decode more than one serial bus, or something else basic that R&S didn't include on an otherwise great, feature packed instrument.
Very frustrating, as when I pull out the DS1054Z to do whatever I couldn't (but should have been able to do) on the RTB2k I remember why I now hate using the Rigol in comparison. The UI bugs me less than it does Mike (probably for the reasons he gave), but it would make a major difference simply being able to turn off all UI animations.
A few additions and fixes like these would move it from being a "killer" only at launch-promo price (or for specific needs), to something that would fully justify the thread title and that I'd recommend to my boss to buy for the lab at work.
Markus - thanks for checking in, I'd love to hear what is being planned, and any comments regarding user feedback R&S has received.
This is a superb scope in so many ways that the small quirks don't even register. I shot an I2C problem a couple of weeks ago and the scope made it a breeze.Now you sound like the owner of a low end Rigol or Siglent scope!
Internet forum rule number one: don't start a pissing contest because there is always someone out there which exceeds whatever you think you have.I gave one example and you think you know what scope suits me? I've been using scopes since you were a star in your mother's eye. (I'm laughing here!)This is a superb scope in so many ways that the small quirks don't even register. I shot an I2C problem a couple of weeks ago and the scope made it a breeze.Now you sound like the owner of a low end Rigol or Siglent scope!
Well, it depends. Generally you are right: by fastidious reading the specs, some would be able to recognize the limits. However, in my opinion a $8000 scope MUST offer extended math functions and duplex serial decoder when even <$500 scopes are coming with this and many will just have expected these features and they wouldn't dream that the scope is lacking these (todays) basic features. By not even answering to these complaints here, R&S for me seems to be arrogant - maybe hoping that the ranting will fade. Generally R&S is usually not focused on single electronic engineers who spend a few thousand bucks here and there: they just care about companies and schools/universities who spend tens of thousands. It seems complaint- / problem-I'd agree with mike, it's generally excellent...
until you have to do something like integrate a current measurement over time, decode more than one serial bus, or something else basic that R&S didn't include on an otherwise great, feature packed instrument.
Very frustrating, as when I pull out the DS1054Z to do whatever I couldn't (but should have been able to do) on the RTB2k I remember why I now hate using the Rigol in comparison. The UI bugs me less than it does Mike (probably for the reasons he gave), but it would make a major difference simply being able to turn off all UI animations.
A few additions and fixes like these would move it from being a "killer" only at launch-promo price (or for specific needs), to something that would fully justify the thread title and that I'd recommend to my boss to buy for the lab at work.
Markus - thanks for checking in, I'd love to hear what is being planned, and any comments regarding user feedback R&S has received.
Maybe you bought the wrong scope for your needs.
Actually I was keen to get a scope with a big+hi-res screen, MSO and better front-end/sample-rate/bandwidth than my Rigol. Have a look at the competition and guess why I bought a (promo-price) RTB2k?I'd agree with mike, it's generally excellent...Maybe you bought the wrong scope for your needs.
until you have to do something like integrate a current measurement over time, decode more than one serial bus, or something else basic that R&S didn't include on an otherwise great, feature packed instrument.
Very frustrating, as when I pull out the DS1054Z to do whatever I couldn't (but should have been able to do) on the RTB2k I remember why I now hate using the Rigol in comparison. The UI bugs me less than it does Mike (probably for the reasons he gave), but it would make a major difference simply being able to turn off all UI animations.
A few additions and fixes like these would move it from being a "killer" only at launch-promo price (or for specific needs), to something that would fully justify the thread title and that I'd recommend to my boss to buy for the lab at work.
Markus - thanks for checking in, I'd love to hear what is being planned, and any comments regarding user feedback R&S has received.
Old Chinese proverb:
"He who seeks perfection finds failure."
Internet forum rule number one: don't start a pissing contest because there is always someone out there which exceeds whatever you think you have.I gave one example and you think you know what scope suits me? I've been using scopes since you were a star in your mother's eye. (I'm laughing here!)This is a superb scope in so many ways that the small quirks don't even register. I shot an I2C problem a couple of weeks ago and the scope made it a breeze.Now you sound like the owner of a low end Rigol or Siglent scope!
Old Chinese proverb:
"He who seeks perfection finds failure."
For sure, the old Chinese must had been fighting with some user-friendly dragon while he said that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi6_tLnCY1c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi6_tLnCY1c)
^-^
Maybe you bought the wrong scope for your needs.
I gave one example and you think you know what scope suits me?
Maybe you can sell it on Ebay, I think they are going for about $3.5k.Actually I was keen to get a scope with a big+hi-res screen, MSO and better front-end/sample-rate/bandwidth than my Rigol. Have a look at the competition and guess why I bought a (promo-price) RTB2k?I'd agree with mike, it's generally excellent...Maybe you bought the wrong scope for your needs.
until you have to do something like integrate a current measurement over time, decode more than one serial bus, or something else basic that R&S didn't include on an otherwise great, feature packed instrument.
Very frustrating, as when I pull out the DS1054Z to do whatever I couldn't (but should have been able to do) on the RTB2k I remember why I now hate using the Rigol in comparison. The UI bugs me less than it does Mike (probably for the reasons he gave), but it would make a major difference simply being able to turn off all UI animations.
A few additions and fixes like these would move it from being a "killer" only at launch-promo price (or for specific needs), to something that would fully justify the thread title and that I'd recommend to my boss to buy for the lab at work.
Markus - thanks for checking in, I'd love to hear what is being planned, and any comments regarding user feedback R&S has received.
I have 2 other scopes which can fill in the capability gaps on the rare occasion that it's required, it's just annoying that they have to do so.
Maybe you bought the wrong scope for your needs.I gave one example and you think you know what scope suits me?
Double standards, anyone?
You wrote those two posts within half an hour of each other. Please make up you mind whether or not it's adequate to second-guess someone's choice of scope based on a forum post.
Actually, you started the pissing contest.
I started working in electronics when I was a kid in high school at the local radio/TV repair shop, I was about 16 or 17 when I used my first scope, I'm 72 now. Got a lot of people around here who have been working in electronics the last 55 years? Would that be you?
I didn't think so....
Actually, you started the pissing contest.
I started working in electronics when I was a kid in high school at the local radio/TV repair shop, I was about 16 or 17 when I used my first scope, I'm 72 now. Got a lot of people around here who have been working in electronics the last 55 years? Would that be you?
I didn't think so....
That post was intended to show how some users seeks perfection in their oscilloscopes, but no feature can suit each and every wish, no matter how good or how user-friendly that feature was intended to be. So, instead of perfection, some too picky users will find just failure and frustration, like in the old Chinese saying.
There was no intention to offend you, or any other specific user, and I am sorry if it did.
Please accept my apologies.
What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity? :-//mtdoc, there's a lot more functionality to get right/wrong on a scope, thus it fuels very long discussions with repetitive arguments around here. That and the fact there's now a lot more choice at a lower cost, which will increase the number of different opinions and the natural desire to share individual experiences. I have seen previous incensed discussions about DMMs, especially when discussing safety, but they tend to vanish due to the simpler nature of the issues discussed - mostly hinged on opinion (DMM ergonomics, etc.) or simple lack of irrefutable evidence (when dealing with safety).
It's as bad as politics and religion on this forum. I don't see that kind of fervor in discussions about power supplies or even DMMs.
What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity? :-//
The people who designed this thing are some of the brightest in the world. What? They didn't examine it, weigh different parameters? You bet they did, I've been in there. I think the grumblers should apply for a job at R&S just to see their reaction, these guys get to pick the cream of crop, how many people here think they are in that group?
That and the fact some people sunk a lot of money into an oscilloscope so it has to be good and cannot possibly ever be a lemon. Kinda like the emperor's new clothes.What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity? :-//A scope, though... that's different. If you're a tech or hands-on EE, that's how you see the world. No one who hasn't spent hundreds of hours using an oscilloscope in anger is ever going to build a good one. When you see a lot of flaws in an otherwise-nice piece of gear that you suspect are only there because nobody at the company ever encountered them personally, it can be rather frustrating.
I have it next to my MSO3104T, but I find I only use it if I need to see more channels, look at independent triggers, or in some decode circumstances (will be more once the fix the uart decode framing bug).
The reason is simply that I find the UI so annoyingly sluggish compared to the Keysight. I'm sure that users who've only used Rigol.Tek etc. Find it OK, but once you've been using the KS for a while it just feels slow, and the intensity grading is rather less refined.
I have it next to my MSO3104T, but I find I only use it if I need to see more channels, look at independent triggers, or in some decode circumstances (will be more once the fix the uart decode framing bug).
The reason is simply that I find the UI so annoyingly sluggish compared to the Keysight. I'm sure that users who've only used Rigol.Tek etc. Find it OK, but once you've been using the KS for a while it just feels slow, and the intensity grading is rather less refined.
I completely agree - I only use it for some decode stuff and high sensitive stuff like microphones.
I wrote R&S guys and complained about the sluggish UI some weeks ago. My (much hated by many) TEK MDO UI is more responsive doing protocol decoding than the R&S. I find myself having to push the screen several times to get it to react when the scope is "busy". And that was by decoding some 921600 bps serial..
It really needs some TLC in the software optimisation department and maybe some focus on multi-threading optimisation.
Don't get me wrong - I like the scope and UI. But I do not like the degrading performance of the UI and the bugs not fixed yet.
And compared the Keysight 3000 is much faster than both MDO and the R&S.
That and the fact some people sunk a lot of money into an oscilloscope so it has to be good and cannot possibly ever be a lemon. Kinda like the emperor's new clothes.What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity? :-//A scope, though... that's different. If you're a tech or hands-on EE, that's how you see the world. No one who hasn't spent hundreds of hours using an oscilloscope in anger is ever going to build a good one. When you see a lot of flaws in an otherwise-nice piece of gear that you suspect are only there because nobody at the company ever encountered them personally, it can be rather frustrating.
The people who designed this thing are some of the brightest in the world. What? They didn't examine it, weigh different parameters? You bet they did, I've been in there. I think the grumblers should apply for a job at R&S just to see their reaction, these guys get to pick the cream of crop, how many people here think they are in that group?
Being with the best and brightest don't mean it's going to be great, I've been on large projects with the brightest and best in their field. After spending ten's of million of dollars it's just another closed f'd-up project.
Sometimes we get it right, sometimes we don't. In this case they got it off the bench and it's going to be judged by the market not by those who worked on the project. As a product, long tern if the company determines it success or failure we may never know for sure.
Just curious, which option actual R&S people would prefer:
a) Unpleased person keeps asking for fix time to time
b) Unpleased person sells scope and moves to another brand
Not to mix with what's best for actual end user...
What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity? :-//mtdoc, there's a lot more functionality to get right/wrong on a scope, thus it fuels very long discussions with repetitive arguments around here. That and the fact there's now a lot more choice at a lower cost, which will increase the number of different opinions and the natural desire to share individual experiences. I have seen previous incensed discussions about DMMs, especially when discussing safety, but they tend to vanish due to the simpler nature of the issues discussed - mostly hinged on opinion (DMM ergonomics, etc.) or simple lack of irrefutable evidence (when dealing with safety).
It's as bad as politics and religion on this forum. I don't see that kind of fervor in discussions about power supplies or even DMMs.
Do you have an RTB2K?
No. He recently purchased a GW Instek but for some reason seems to be on every scope thread criticizing any non-GW Instek scopes.That is not true. Besides that I have purchased other oscilloscopes in the mean time and I've got quite a bit of hands on experience with a wide variety of scopes anyway 8) . I do have a business to run so I look at value for money / return on investment.
Now in my practice (dev management of some e-commerce stuff with ~100k active customers) these are 3 types of displeased clients:
- "silent quitter", he does not like something, but keeps it secret and eventually runs away, possibly to some other service with million other flaws. This is worst type of customer because I do not even know what to improve. Also customer will probably not be happy also (because other services do have million of other flaws).
- "tells once" customer, better but I'm not sure if he really needs stuff or just nice to have, requests go to the end of todo-list, implementation long time or never. Customer will probably not be happy.
- "active maniac" type, usually small companies. If does not get improvements asks several times. Loyal customers. Not only they do get what they want but greatly help to improve service. Usually I give them some "extra candy" for effort and requests may even get to "now" todo-list because it make my job easier and keep costs down because paid staff has less thinking to do.
So yea, if you want no extra candy just make sure you quit on first bug ;) However if you report 10 and nothing is ever fixed then of course. Either your views are incompatible with dev manager views or product is actually hopeless :D
Edit: Also some companies use voting system for fixes/improvements. So again "active maniac" is good because he may complain/explain why on some forum also and others notice. If they are displeased alike and report, same problem gets many votes and hopefully fixed. So "active maniac" functions as "passive user activator". Yet again free testing & man hours for producer :-+
No. He recently purchased a GW Instek but for some reason seems to be on every scope thread criticizing any non-GW Instek scopes.That is not true. Besides that I have purchased other oscilloscopes in the mean time and I've got quite a bit of hands on experience with a wide variety of scopes anyway 8) . I do have a business to run so I look at value for money / return on investment.
No. He recently purchased a GW Instek but for some reason seems to be on every scope thread criticizing any non-GW Instek scopes.That is not true. Besides that I have purchased other oscilloscopes in the mean time and I've got quite a bit of hands on experience with a wide variety of scopes anyway 8) . I do have a business to run so I look at value for money / return on investment.
That must be some business! It looks like you spend your time on the EEV forum (12,000+ posts) and you're on a thread about a scope you don't even own! What do you get paid by the word?
No. He recently purchased a GW Instek but for some reason seems to be on every scope thread criticizing any non-GW Instek scopes.That is not true. Besides that I have purchased other oscilloscopes in the mean time and I've got quite a bit of hands on experience with a wide variety of scopes anyway 8) . I do have a business to run so I look at value for money / return on investment.
That must be some business! It looks like you spend your time on the EEV forum (12,000+ posts) and you're on a thread about a scope you don't even own! What do you get paid by the word?
Take care when you set out to hunt trolls, lest you become a troll. And when you stare into the Internet, the Internet also stares into you. - F. Nietzsche :P
If I was your boss I'd probably fire you for what you just said!
I don't work for free and I don't give free reviews of equipment. I'm glad you like "free testers" but you should always keep in mind, you get what you pay for.
Besides that there are lots of people on this forum which are involved in making test equipment purchase decissions and/or giving advice on what to buy.I don't work for free and I don't give free reviews of equipment. I'm glad you like "free testers" but you should always keep in mind, you get what you pay for.
Strictly from T&M perspective: I see lots of activity around by highly professional T&M companies that try to connect with low-end customer but in general fail. Why? Because pro (designer) has no concept of whats going on in non-pro head. But non-pro buys the stuff so cannot be ignored or gear will stay on shelf. You think various reps hang here for fun only or strictly for sales work?
Just curious, which option actual R&S people would prefer:
a) Unpleased person keeps asking for fix time to time
b) Unpleased person sells scope and moves to another brand
Not to mix with what's best for actual end user...
I don't work for free and I don't give free reviews of equipment. I'm glad you like "free testers" but you should always keep in mind, you get what you pay for.
Strictly from T&M perspective: I see lots of activity around by highly professional T&M companies that try to connect with low-end customer but in general fail. Why? Because pro (designer) has no concept of whats going on in non-pro head. But non-pro buys the stuff so cannot be ignored or gear will stay on shelf. You think various reps hang here for fun only or strictly for sales work?
BTW I'm quite sure you use some open-source free software, not only tested but programmed for free by self-selected and highly non-professional people. Probably would fire those guys too if could ;)
I can attest to that - over the years attending this forum I see oscilloscope threads and electrical safety as the most contentious technical topics around here. I tend to see the best in people and attribute this to vigorous passion (and not commercial or other ulterior motive) that sometimes creates the conditions for ass horsery, but as you said certain folks take their passion to the next level and end up posting at Every. Single. Thread.What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity? :-//mtdoc, there's a lot more functionality to get right/wrong on a scope, thus it fuels very long discussions with repetitive arguments around here. That and the fact there's now a lot more choice at a lower cost, which will increase the number of different opinions and the natural desire to share individual experiences. I have seen previous incensed discussions about DMMs, especially when discussing safety, but they tend to vanish due to the simpler nature of the issues discussed - mostly hinged on opinion (DMM ergonomics, etc.) or simple lack of irrefutable evidence (when dealing with safety).
It's as bad as politics and religion on this forum. I don't see that kind of fervor in discussions about power supplies or even DMMs.
Yes, good points and I agree. But you've been here long enough to see that it's more than that for some people who seem to need to not only discuss the pros and cons of various scopes but who show up on every scope thread pushing their particular choice and criticizing all others. It seems to be tribal in a way that is not true of other electronics topics on this forum.
Now in my practice (dev management of some e-commerce stuff with ~100k active customers) these are 3 types of displeased clients:I have seen many customers that somewhat fit into these types, but the lines are extremely blurred in my line of work. Since we can never do anything about #1 (nor even acknowledge their existence), out of these I can tell that #2 is the most common, but in my line of field we give the same priority to reports from both #2 and #3 as they may affect the product equally. Obviously the speed of implementation varies with the criticality of the issue reported and, if it is considered a new feature, it will be added on an over arching future release.
- "silent quitter", he does not like something, but keeps it secret and eventually runs away, possibly to some other service with million other flaws. This is worst type of customer because I do not even know what to improve. Also customer will probably not be happy also (because other services do have million of other flaws).
- "tells once" customer, better but I'm not sure if he really needs stuff or just nice to have, requests go to the end of todo-list, implementation long time or never. Customer will probably not be happy.
- "active maniac" type, usually small companies. If does not get improvements asks several times. Loyal customers. Not only they do get what they want but greatly help to improve service. Usually I give them some "extra candy" for effort and requests may even get to "now" todo-list because it make my job easier and keep costs down because paid staff has less thinking to do.
Obviously that I don't know what your field is, but I suspect that you may be creating many #1 customers if you keep lowering the priority of your #2 customer requests.
Besides that there are lots of people on this forum which are involved in making test equipment purchase decissions and/or giving advice on what to buy.I don't work for free and I don't give free reviews of equipment. I'm glad you like "free testers" but you should always keep in mind, you get what you pay for.
Strictly from T&M perspective: I see lots of activity around by highly professional T&M companies that try to connect with low-end customer but in general fail. Why? Because pro (designer) has no concept of whats going on in non-pro head. But non-pro buys the stuff so cannot be ignored or gear will stay on shelf. You think various reps hang here for fun only or strictly for sales work?
If I was your boss I'd probably fire you for what you just said!
Oh, c'mon...
Just because you don't share someone's values does not mean you are right and the other guy is wrong. Also, he is from another domain ("dev management of some e-commerce stuff").
PS don't want to play "internet police", just don't like stupid offensive claims "I'd fire you! No, I'd fire you first!". Okay, I'm playing it 8)
if you need to tell me who you are means that what you have to say probably won't stand on its own merits.
if you need to tell me who you are means that what you have to say probably won't stand on its own merits.
Says "Retired EE" :palm:
Hi folks,
as promised two days ago, I had a short talk with the responsible product manager of the RTB. The next FW release will take place end of October this year. He told me, that our plan is three FW releases per year. The major focus off this next release is bug fixing.
I hope this helps
Markus
Hi Folks - sorry, I've been away from my PC for a couple weeks on vacation and this thread exploded. A couple comments:
1. Thanks Markus for the update. R&S is not known for abandoning products - I think everyone can feel comfortable that we will definitely continue to update them. We may just not move as fast as we'd all like (especially over the summer months).
2. I agree with Simon's comment - I appreciate the feedback (positive and negative), but lets try to stay on topic.
3. I find it intriguing that people keep comparing the RTB2000 to Keysight's x3000T and Tek's MDO3000. It was not targeted at that class, but I can see why it might be compared. And while you can option the RTB2000 up to ~$6,000 due to the 300MHz (no one would ever option it to $8K as you can save significant money with the package bundle versus buying each individual item for free), please keep in mind it also starts at $1,370 and has similar pricing to the 2000X and DPO2000 (while offering a 10-bit ADC, lower noise, touch, a much larger display, significantly deeper memory, etc). Because it has so much HW capability, I also definitely understand the desire to add more SW capability like advanced math (that even lower cost scopes have) and rest assured that feedback has been passed on.
Not that I'm back in the groove, I'll try to do a better job of keeping you all up-to-date and sending your feedback on to the factory team (although as you can tell they also read this thread too).
-Rich
Hi folks,
as promised two days ago, I had a short talk with the responsible product manager of the RTB. The next FW release will take place end of October this year. He told me, that our plan is three FW releases per year. The major focus off this next release is bug fixing.
I hope this helps
Markus
Hello.The first picture looks like a better probe compensation than the second. I find it is best to work with both high-frequency adjustments more than once to get the best waveform.
I have some questions about RTB2004. I used scope about week and have good impression – this is the better thing which I saw.
1. The arb. generator without constant slew rate (for the rectangle waveform). Why?
2. What should be a signal after probe compensation? The probe calibrator allows ambiguity. Both pics are valid.
3. At the 50ms and more timebase the memory segment #0 was look very strange.
4. Sometimes Pattern Gen menu was unavailable. I can't find reasons.
Thanks.
Mike.
Hello.Hi Mike - I received some feedback on your questions:
I have some questions about RTB2004. I used scope about week and have good impression – this is the better thing which I saw.
1. The arb. generator without constant slew rate (for the rectangle waveform). Why?
2. What should be a signal after probe compensation? The probe calibrator allows ambiguity. Both pics are valid.
3. At the 50ms and more timebase the memory segment #0 was look very strange.
4. Sometimes Pattern Gen menu was unavailable. I can't find reasons.
Thanks.
Mike.
Please explain me FFT behavior and how I must use it. The FFT function is very important for me. Now I see unexpected and unreliable result.Hi Mike - one more update on your FFT questions. This is also a bug. It doesn't appear on channel 1 (only channel 2 and only when just channel 2 is being used), so there is a relatively simple workaround. It has been added to our defect tracking service for a future FW update.
Unfortunately, I see internal distortion (level dependent) as in my old Tek
Thanks.
Mike.
Thanks for the info ws. Do you know, or does anyone know if the RTB2K-74 package includes 300 MHz probes for when it is upgraded to 300 MHz later?Yep, as I didn't by the intro deal (Austria!) but a normal unit and obviously didn't go for the full bandwidth (no need for me), I can confirm, that it comes with the exact same probe as the 300 MHz unit (see also datsheet) and they are speced for the full bandwidth.
Any thoughts on the MSOX2024A vs the RTB2Ks? My impression (from reading the forum and youtube reviews) is that the R&S has a much nicer screen with more real estate but a more sluggish GUI. The R&S also has a significant memory depth advantage.
Out of curiosity which package did you buy?I just got the logic channels (Rtb-b1) in addition
These are some examples of FFT function. I think for precision measurements this device is unsuitable.
The signal source is G3-118. The first harmonic was suppressed by rejector (- 100db). The second harmonic - 106 dB. For me it is physical vacuum.
These are some examples of FFT function. I think for precision measurements this device is unsuitable.
The signal source is G3-118. The first harmonic was suppressed by rejector (- 100db). The second harmonic - 106 dB. For me it is physical vacuum.
The channel-to-channel isolation spec is only 50dB, so looking at the low signal on channel one with the 10V source on channel 4 is bound to give you problems. For the rest, it looks to me like you are getting 60dB+ dynamic range out of a 10-bit device, just how good do you expect it to be?
These are some examples of FFT function. I think for precision measurements this device is unsuitable.
The signal source is G3-118. The first harmonic was suppressed by rejector (- 100db). The second harmonic - 106 dB. For me it is physical vacuum.
The channel-to-channel isolation spec is only 50dB, so looking at the low signal on channel one with the 10V source on channel 4 is bound to give you problems. For the rest, it looks to me like you are getting 60dB+ dynamic range out of a 10-bit device, just how good do you expect it to be?
It says a lot that the expectations for FFT functionality in an oscilloscope are so high (and perhaps unrealistic). If frequency domain information is that critical to someone, an oscilloscope is the wrong tool. But it is a nice bonus that DSO's have come so far and are now including usable (if not perfect) FFT functionality. There are some bugs here and I'm sure R&S will continue to fine tune this scopes FFT software, but overall I'm pretty impressed with it.
I know, you have never seen this on a modern scope ...https://twitter.com/mikelectricstuf/status/846419601529430019?lang=en-gb
Thats a real bug. In xy-mode switch from sample to average, and see what happens.I know, you have never seen this on a modern scope ...https://twitter.com/mikelectricstuf/status/846419601529430019?lang=en-gb
These are some examples of FFT function. I think for precision measurements this device is unsuitable.
The signal source is G3-118. The first harmonic was suppressed by rejector (- 100db). The second harmonic - 106 dB. For me it is physical vacuum.
The channel-to-channel isolation spec is only 50dB, so looking at the low signal on channel one with the 10V source on channel 4 is bound to give you problems. For the rest, it looks to me like you are getting 60dB+ dynamic range out of a 10-bit device, just how good do you expect it to be?
I hope that it is possible to get a dynamic range 90+ dB.I think that may be an unrealistic expectation for standard oscilloscopes. I would suggest that you might really want to look for a dynamic signal analyzer or a soundcard-based solution, although this picoscope looks like it might be up to your needs:
Hello Rich and Marcus.
This is another small bug. When the Russian language is active, then the keyboard loses the MIN and MAX parameters.
Thanks.
Mike.
Some more bugs to report (none are show stoppers):
If you need very good THD, I recommend audio hardware. Even my 10 years old RME Fireface 400 has a THD<-110dB with max. sample rate of 192kHz and 24bit resolution, 8 channels.
I know, you have never seen this on a modern scope ...Hello.
:popcorn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZFsFARAv8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZFsFARAv8)
I know, you have never seen this on a modern scope ...Hello.
:popcorn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZFsFARAv8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZFsFARAv8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32tFNiJP7hw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32tFNiJP7hw)
Thats a real bug. In xy-mode switch from sample to average, and see what happens.;)
Yeah, hello.Oh, I did not know that.
The reason behind is, that the RTB makes this by itself. There is no other signal coming in but doing this external. And this shows another real bug from this scope:QuoteThats a real bug. In xy-mode switch from sample to average, and see what happens.;)
Just using channel one I could see the same offset but I also noticed that sometimes there seemed to be no offset.Yes, this offset is 4ns, rarely everything is fine. And no, I did not use de-skew.
Ironically, when photographing the oscilloscope, a small defect was found. At a 20 ?s timebase the zoom has an error. This is manifested if the channel operates without its own pair (1-2 or 3-4).Hi MikeP - this is a bug that is fixed in the next release.
Thanks for your engagement Rich.Sure - I enjoy this forum, so it is easy to engage when I know an answer.
Any ETA for the next firmware update release?
I wish R&S had added a VESA mount but may be someone else here has a brilliant DIY solution?
I wish R&S had added a VESA mount but may be someone else here has a brilliant DIY solution?The back case feels too flimsy to take a mount- you could probably make a mount from an angled metal plate for it to sit on.
I wish R&S had added a VESA mount but may be someone else here has a brilliant DIY solution?
The back case feels too flimsy to take a mount- you could probably make a mount from an angled metal plate for it to sit on.
maybe see if there is a VESA keyboard shelf that could be adapted?
I did it: Two weeks to wait for my
- RTB2004, 300MHz
- RTB-B1 - 16 Kanal Mixed Signal
- RTB-B6 - 25 MHz Arbiträr Generator
- RTB-K1 - I2C/SPI Decode
- RTB-K2 - UART/RS-232/RS-422/RS-485 Decode
- RTB-K3 - CAN/LIN Dekodierung und
- RTB-K15 - History & Segmented Memory
WooHoo! :) :) :)
I did it: Two weeks to wait for my
- RTB2004, 300MHz
- RTB-B1 - 16 Kanal Mixed Signal
- RTB-B6 - 25 MHz Arbiträr Generator
- RTB-K1 - I2C/SPI Decode
- RTB-K2 - UART/RS-232/RS-422/RS-485 Decode
- RTB-K3 - CAN/LIN Dekodierung und
- RTB-K15 - History & Segmented Memory
WooHoo! :) :) :)
Are there any known discounts in the EU/Germany for anybody or students?
Are there any known discounts in the EU/Germany for anybody or students?
I think Datatec.de is able to give you a minor discount. You can select a product and click the button "Bildungspreis anfragen" (or grab the phone and call them)
it's not going to be substantial though, maybe 5...10%
Some disorder in the spec.This seems correct to me - if you're only using one channel from each group (groups being channels 1&2 and 3&4) then you can get 2.5GSa/s and 20MSa memory depth. If you use 3 or 4 channels, or 2 within the same group, then you get 1.25GSa/s and 10MSa max. This is a fairly common type of specification for oscilloscopes which share ADC/memory resources between channels.
I'm hoping that there is a significant discount if you buy an RTB2004 with all the options. There ought to be since it's all software license keys except for the LA probes.OTOH the GW Instek has much deeper and faster FFT which makes FFT actually usefull because you don't have to trade off between FFT resolution and optimal time/div settings. IOW you can look at a signal in both the frequency and time domain much more easely compared to other DSOs. Also for the price of the RTB2004 with all the options you can buy a very decent used MSO with a big screen and even 8 analog channels isn't out of the question (Yokogawa DLM4000 series for example).
The other scope I'm considering is the GW Instek MSO-2204EA. It has most of the same features, but neither the memory depth nor the BW. Probably good enough, but 300 MHz and 140 Mpts would be really nice if the uptick in price is not too high.
OTOH the GW Instek has much deeper and faster FFT which makes FFT actually usefull because you don't have to trade off between FFT resolution and optimal time/div settings. IOW you can look at a signal in both the frequency and time domain much more easely compared to other DSOs. Also for the price of the RTB2004 with all the options you can buy a very decent used MSO with a big screen and even 8 analog channels isn't out of the question (Yokogawa DLM4000 series for example).
Maybe I am missing something, but what is wrong with using spectrum analyzers for spectrum measurements. Everyone is way to fixated on the FFT with oscilloscopes, it is a nice add on, but definitely not the main purpose of the instrument. For spectrum measurement of power supplies etc. I always use an SA as it offers much better performance. I own the RTB and the FFT functionality is good, but the use cases a very limited.Spectrum analysers don't go down to DC and they sweep instead of taking a snapshot of a signal. I implement DSP algorithms regulary and 1Mpts FFT is super helpfull to look at a signal in both time and frequency domain to (for starters) see what the wanted signal versus unwanted signal ratio is. Also being able to do FFT on a part of a signal can aid to trace back which part of a signal is responsible for EMC emissions and hence you get a better understanding on what needs to be fixed. In a switching power supply there isn't just one component responsible for emissions.
Maybe I am missing something, but what is wrong with using spectrum analyzers for spectrum measurements. Everyone is way to fixated on the FFT with oscilloscopes, it is a nice add on, but definitely not the main purpose of the instrument. For spectrum measurement of power supplies etc. I always use an SA as it offers much better performance. I own the RTB and the FFT functionality is good, but the use cases a very limited.FFT may not be the main purpose of a scope, but many of us cannot justify purchasing a SA for the hobbyist projects we are interested in. In this case a decent scope-based FFT might be good enough for what we need, but a poor one (e.g. Rigol DS1000Z) may not be, so FFT specs/usability can be an important consideration when buying a scope if a SA isn't available.
I don't agree with this. FFT on a scope and a spectrum analyser are catering for two entirely different use cases. There is some overlap but if you need to look at a (frozen) signal in both the frequency and time domain at the same time then FFT on a scope is the tool of choice. Using a PC can be an alternative but the scope would need to be able transfer a lot of data quickly for this to work in an ergonomic way.Maybe I am missing something, but what is wrong with using spectrum analyzers for spectrum measurements. Everyone is way to fixated on the FFT with oscilloscopes, it is a nice add on, but definitely not the main purpose of the instrument. For spectrum measurement of power supplies etc. I always use an SA as it offers much better performance. I own the RTB and the FFT functionality is good, but the use cases a very limited.FFT may not be the main purpose of a scope, but many of us cannot justify purchasing a SA for the hobbyist projects we are interested in. In this case a decent scope-based FFT might be good enough for what we need, but a poor one (e.g. Rigol DS1000Z) may not be, so FFT specs/usability can be an important consideration when buying a scope if a SA isn't available.
I'm rather surprised and dismayed that neither Bartlett (triangular) nor Gaussian windows are an option on any of the current scopes I've looked at.
Some disorder in the spec.Does disorder mean that the RTB hardware/firmware is still able to select any two channel combination for 2.5GS/s?
Hm seems like in Russia one can get the PK1-Package for 50% from November to January?My understanding is it is worldwide. So yes, should be available in Austria. It for sure will be available in the US and Canada starting November 1st.
https://twitter.com/Elec_ru/status/923090806235205632 (https://twitter.com/Elec_ru/status/923090806235205632)
Or do I get this wrong? Any sign that this also applies in Austria?
I was decoding a signal, which had exactly 2.2us. I did set timescale on 2.2us so it was niceliy aligned with grid, but when moving further i had to really focus when spanning.Pressing the horizontal knob switches between coarse and fine adjust
Anyone knows if it's possible to assign a fixed time for one step on horizontal span?
I know you can do that by pressing on screen and setting numeric value, but would be so handy if i could just turn this detented knob, one step forward.
You mean horizontal scale knob? Cause as far as i remember horizontal span would position at zero after pressing.I was decoding a signal, which had exactly 2.2us. I did set timescale on 2.2us so it was niceliy aligned with grid, but when moving further i had to really focus when spanning.Pressing the horizontal knob switches between coarse and fine adjust
Anyone knows if it's possible to assign a fixed time for one step on horizontal span?
I know you can do that by pressing on screen and setting numeric value, but would be so handy if i could just turn this detented knob, one step forward.
I think there is a confusion between scale/span/position. I would call the small knob "Position" and the large "Scale". Span means "Scale" to me. The Position knob moves the trace by a set amount when moving slow, when moving it faster there is some acceleration logic which makes the trace move more per step.Yes! That would be exactly what I was asking about. Position. And that i what i was wondering. Is there any possibility to set that this "slow" step would move in example 2.2uS.
On another topic: Rich - any news on the new firmware release?Hi Hydron - Unfortunately, it sounds like it won't make it out this week. :( I'm told the goal is now this coming week. Wish I had a better update as I know everyone is waiting patiently.
My understanding is it is worldwide. So yes, should be available in Austria. It for sure will be available in the US and Canada starting November 1st.Any news of the worldwide 50% discount on the pk1 bundle?
-Rich
At least in Europe I see it at several shops."Aktion gültig bei Neukauf eines RTB Oszilloskopes"
For example:
http://www.datatec.de/Aktion-Rohde-RTB-PK1-Oszilloskop-Option.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Aktion-Rohde-RTB-PK1-Oszilloskop-Option.htm)
Bought my scope 3 weeks ago..this is a bit disappointing :-//At least in Europe I see it at several shops."Aktion gültig bei Neukauf eines RTB Oszilloskopes"
For example:
http://www.datatec.de/Aktion-Rohde-RTB-PK1-Oszilloskop-Option.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Aktion-Rohde-RTB-PK1-Oszilloskop-Option.htm)
"Action valid on new purchase of an RTB oscilloscope"
That's stupid...
Not quite what we are interested in :--
On another topic: Rich - any news on the new firmware release?Hi Hydron - Unfortunately, it sounds like it won't make it out this week. :( I'm told the goal is now this coming week. Wish I had a better update as I know everyone is waiting patiently.
-Rich
Hopefully more than just a few bug fixes when it is out.Agreed, or at least an indication of what changes are planned and when.
I know... |OOn another topic: Rich - any news on the new firmware release?Hi Hydron - Unfortunately, it sounds like it won't make it out this week. :( I'm told the goal is now this coming week. Wish I had a better update as I know everyone is waiting patiently.
-Rich
hmm another week no update? :)
Also on the subject of bugs and fixes - any ETA for the "October" firmware?
Nice long list, thanks Rich!Surprisingly loooooong list. :-//
-Solved: XY mode with average on; wrong display of waveform in xy-diagram.Does this mean space invaders is gone? :-\ Hope they built in snake in exchange :popcorn: Joking aside, as Christmas is near: are there any easter eggs in the FW?
Yes, I believe it is gone. And I'm not sure if there are any easter eggs - they didn't tell me there were, but then, what fun would that be?-Solved: XY mode with average on; wrong display of waveform in xy-diagram.Does this mean space invaders is gone? :-\ Hope they built in snake in exchange :popcorn: Joking aside, as Christmas is near: are there any easter eggs in the FW?
Nice long list, thanks Rich!Surprisingly loooooong list. :-//
Neither.Nice long list, thanks Rich!Surprisingly loooooong list. :-//
Are you suggesting the upgrades and bug fixes are a bad thing or just surprised some companies try to do more than one bug fix every 6 months?
By the way, a completely different question:It is. While the part numbers only exist to go from 70MHz to each of the higher steps, we’ll discount out the difference - you should just need to ping the place you purchased it from.
is it possible to upgrade from 100Mhz to 200Mhz and later from 200Mhz to 300Mhz, and how much does it cost?
That's an impressive list. Certainly justifies the amount of time it took.That's something the new kids on the block (ie, Chinese manufacturers) still need to learn: transparency. A detailed list of changes can be of critical importance.
It's not only a matter of detailing "fixes in measurements" but _what_ you have fixed.... if they know it ;D
Yes, that's my opinion too, but not from this nice lady on the phone R&S-Germany. :oBy the way, a completely different question:It is. While the part numbers only exist to go from 70MHz to each of the higher steps, we’ll discount out the difference - you should just need to ping the place you purchased it from.
is it possible to upgrade from 100Mhz to 200Mhz and later from 200Mhz to 300Mhz, and how much does it cost?
-Rich
I'm wondering about two things:
- Does the latest firmware fix all the outstanding issues or are there more issues to be fixed?
- What is the price including the current special offers? IIRC originally the 300MHz model + MSO + decoding would set you back about 8000 euro.
Thanks. That price level seems way more sane to me. Looking forward to what others have to say about the new firmware.I'm wondering about two things:
- Does the latest firmware fix all the outstanding issues or are there more issues to be fixed?
- What is the price including the current special offers? IIRC originally the 300MHz model + MSO + decoding would set you back about 8000 euro.
I don't have an answer for the first question but I have ordered it last Friday (It should arrive today) from Farnell. Final price ~4150 + VAT for a full optional scope (MSO 300MHZ + PK1) thanks to black Friday (15%) and launch offer on PK1.
-MOSI/MISO functionality for SPI bus with option RTB-K1
-Rx/Tx functionality for UART bus with option RTB-K2
One previously reported bug not fixed :Hi Mike - this is actually the intended behavior. Because the output can be used as a generator, 10MHz out, pass/fail, etc we try to protect users who may not realize that the output was set as a generator (e.g. in schools) and end up destroying a sensitive device. We realize this is frustrating to a more experienced user, but we feel like we chose the lesser of two evils. Definitely open to other suggestions if you have them.
Aux out setting not preserved over a power cycle
It's definitely disappointing to discover that one full-duplex decode is still all that you get despite the change in configuration method. Even having the second decoder limited to simpler options (i.e. non-RX/TX or MOSI/MISO) when the first decoder is doing full duplex would be a big improvement.Hi Hydron - first, you are correct on "Fast Segmentation". It's a feature that had been there, but was not obvious and/or easy to use, so based on feedback from a number of users we tried to simplify it.
Rich - are you able to comment on the reason for the limitation continuing despite the configuration change? Is it due to hardware capability, or commercial reasons? The fact that multiple addressed buses (e.g. I2C, CAN) are supported simultaneously argues to me against it being the latter.
The other changes/improvement/bug-fixes are certainly welcome - looks like they got to most (though not all) of the bugs I submitted. I'll be using the scope in anger this weekend, so will provide feedback on what I find. What is the "Fast Segmentation" option btw?
Edit: "Fast Segmentation" seems to have an effect in "Nx Single" capture mode - I'm seeing as little as 3.2us between segments, i.e. 300k+ segments/s.
A few graphics issues have made it into this release as well, as the attached screenshot shows.Thanks Michael for the very detailed instructions on how to replicate this. I'll submit it to our bug fix queue.
Square-wave on channel 1.
Measurement added (peak-peak).
Zoom enabled (exact settings are visible in the screenshot).
Hit the Run/Stop button (history navigation appeared).
Added second measurement (rise -time).
Scrambled overplayed graphics appeared.
BR,
Michael
Hi!Also, in UK at least, remember you can get 4% cashback on Farnell orders via Quidco
My first post here but I hope that its useful for those who have bought their RTB's without
the PK1 option bundle and are a bit irritated because of the current offer from R&S to get
a 50% discount for the PK1 when buying it together with a new scope.
The offer is also on Farnell but it seems that the system has discounted the PK1 to 50%
of its original cost but does not require to add a scope to the basket. So get your option
bundles while they last or while Farnell notices this bug and fixes it :) I got mine already.
With best wishes,
Marek
.....................
With respect to your question on the duplex buses, I have a guess, but I'll also confirm with our R&D team. I believe it is due to our hardware implementation of bus decoding in a FPGA. We tried to simplify the setting up of a duplex bus (which I believe we did), but we weren't able to completely reconfigure the FPGA to handle a duplex bus on a single decode at this time. Having said that, we know that several people would like the ability to decode a full duplex bus and another bus simultaneously and we'll continue to keep that on the potential enhancement list for future updates.
-Rich
Totally understand and hopefully it is something we can address in a future release. I've made sure your feedback (and others) is known......................I found that very disappointing too.
With respect to your question on the duplex buses, I have a guess, but I'll also confirm with our R&D team. I believe it is due to our hardware implementation of bus decoding in a FPGA. We tried to simplify the setting up of a duplex bus (which I believe we did), but we weren't able to completely reconfigure the FPGA to handle a duplex bus on a single decode at this time. Having said that, we know that several people would like the ability to decode a full duplex bus and another bus simultaneously and we'll continue to keep that on the potential enhancement list for future updates.
-Rich
It's a true deal breaker and something that I don't expect in this price range.
Regards,
0xfede
It's not the latest firmware unfortunately. I must say I disagree with Shahriar about the detented knobs!
Video is good so far, but employment got in the way of watching the whole thing :(
I installed the latest firmware a week ago. Has there been an update since then?
I know the knobs is a matter of taste, I personally really like them.
It's not the latest firmware unfortunately. I must say I disagree with Shahriar about the detented knobs!Yes, the now-working UART framing would have helped for his demo. Pretty sure I had Uart trigger working though surprised it didn't wirk fir him.
Video is good so far, but employment got in the way of watching the whole thing :(
I installed the latest firmware a week ago. Has there been an update since then?
I know the knobs is a matter of taste, I personally really like them.
A significant update, v2.0, was released on November 29th.
The Signal Path just posted:
Rohde & Schwarz RTB2004 10-Bit, 2.5GS/s Mixed-Signal Oscilloscope Review, Teardown & Experiments
Great video, thanks for your work.0xfede - thanks for the feedback on the UART threshold. The team was able to recreate this and has added it to the bug fix tracker. There is also a workaround in the meantime - you can change the threshold in the channel menu.
I checked and on V2.00 fw the UART pattern triggering is working.
A bug that I found is that if you try to modify the UART TX (secondary) treshold level it doesn't change. The only way to modify it is to continously push the 'Find Treshold' button until the value is the one you want.
Just for fun I'm attaching an FFT of 868MHZ FSK modulated signal (I've used an external 50ohm terminator).
Best,
0xfede
I had a chance to play around with the latest firmware over the weekend and I am fairly impressed. Several GUI issues I had reported were not mentioned in the release notes, so I was quite relieved that they had been fixed as well.Hi Fgrir - thanks for the feedback and sorry for the trouble. The team was also able to recreate this and it will be fixed in the next update.
One issue I had noticed (but never reported) before the firmware update has not been corrected though. Incorrect data is saved when downloading a .csv file of the acquisition memory of a trace that has not been allowed to complete. I noticed this when using the scope for some ad-hoc datalogging with the timebase set to 500s/div, but it can be recreated with any timebase slow enough that you can hit Run/Stop before the full trace data is collected.
The attached examples were taken with Single trigger mode and Acquisition Record Length of 20MSa. The first one (scrprint1/plot1) was allowed to complete and the downloaded data appears correct, while the second one (scrprint2/plot2) was stopped early with the Run/Stop button. The .csv files are downloaded through the network interface and the plots are generated with Octave+gnuplot, and I have manually examined the .csv file contents to verify that the plots are accurately representing the data in the files. I'd upload the .csv files as well but they are ~500MB :--
The data content of the early terminated traces can vary - I know at various times I've seen random data, discontinuous data like shown in the second example here, and even continuous data that appears to be from the correct waveform but with incorrect phase/timestamps. I'm sure it is related to the previous operations on the scope, but I haven't quite figured out a pattern to it yet.
It is also interesting that the pre-trigger data is never shown on the early-terminated trace. On the trace that is allowed to finish the pre-trigger data is not displayed until after the trace completes, so it seems possible that there is some sort of post-trace processing that is being missed that leads to the download being incorrect.
Great video, thanks for your work.0xfede - thanks for the feedback on the UART threshold. The team was able to recreate this and has added it to the bug fix tracker. There is also a workaround in the meantime - you can change the threshold in the channel menu.
I checked and on V2.00 fw the UART pattern triggering is working.
A bug that I found is that if you try to modify the UART TX (secondary) treshold level it doesn't change. The only way to modify it is to continously push the 'Find Treshold' button until the value is the one you want.
Just for fun I'm attaching an FFT of 868MHZ FSK modulated signal (I've used an external 50ohm terminator).
Best,
0xfede
-Rich
Thanks kaz911 for the feedback. Can you elaborate on other areas you'd like to see improved on the serial decoding front?Great video, thanks for your work.0xfede - thanks for the feedback on the UART threshold. The team was able to recreate this and has added it to the bug fix tracker. There is also a workaround in the meantime - you can change the threshold in the channel menu.
I checked and on V2.00 fw the UART pattern triggering is working.
A bug that I found is that if you try to modify the UART TX (secondary) treshold level it doesn't change. The only way to modify it is to continously push the 'Find Treshold' button until the value is the one you want.
Just for fun I'm attaching an FFT of 868MHZ FSK modulated signal (I've used an external 50ohm terminator).
Best,
0xfede
-Rich
Here is one more funny UART "Feature"
I'm doing 921600 bit/s.
When I type it into the Bit Rate - User field - it is parsed first time as 919.12 kBit (how big are your kBits?) - but 2nd time entering the EXACT same number it is parsed as 930.07 kBit/s. 3rd time we are back at 919.12kBit/s - 4th time 930.06kBit/s - and so on...
Neither is related to 1000 OR 1024 dependent on how many bits you think is in a kilo of Bit's.
:)
But I'm not very impressed by the serial decoding either. Please put some effort into that for next firmware version. :)
Thanks kaz911 for the feedback. Can you elaborate on other areas you'd like to see improved on the serial decoding front?
-Rich
It's not so much about readability, as getting as much onscreen as possible. The hexagon style bus display has never made much sense for serial decodes, though everyone seems to do it, as a hang-over from parallel busses, where it did make sense.
Like Mike I would like more than one symbol in a message - now I specify a longer hold-off "Idle Time" to get all the chars on one line in the Bus-Table. In that would be nice to have in the decode screen as well. So everything before the Idle-Time is not split into many hexagons but stays within 1 making it infinitely more readable :)
Fellow forum members, RTB owners, Rich,Thanks Peter for the feedback. Here are some answers:
So, I took the plunge and ponied up the equivalent of $4000 for a 4 channel 200MHz + PK1 package + Digital channels, upgrading from my trusty old 1054Z. I am perfectly aware that this is a brand new scope model, and that it will be some time until the last bug has been hunted out of it. I chose to factor in the reputation of Rohde & Schwarz brand, as well as their pride in the equipment they manufacture, into my purchasing decision. So I am quite confident that they will step up the game and make this scope as great as it has the potential to be (right Rich?).
Anyhow, I've had the scope for almost a week now, running the latest 2.0 software just released. So I thought I'll contribute with a few bugs I've noted.
1. Lost waveform 1
Set the scope to Run mode and trigger set to Norm (not Auto). Once a trigger and waveform is acquired, hit the zoom button - without first hitting stop - and watch the waveform disappear after a fraction of a second. The opposite fails as well, capture in zoom and go back to normal view also clears waveform.
2. Lost waveform 2
Also in Run mode, Normal trigger; change horizontal scale also clears waveform, unless stop is pressed before. Probably the same bug as above.
3. Single capture in Auto trigger mode.
The "auto" feature of auto seems to trigger a one-shot when in single mode, essentially wasting the trigger on random waveform without trigger.
So, with no input active on a channel and a trigger level of a few volts, scope in "Run" and "Auto"
mode. Hit "Single" and watch the scope capture a zero-level waveform without trigger point.
4. Counter Threshold goes bananas
Feed a 400mV PP, 10 KHz square wave into the scope, set vertical scale to 200mV/div, threshold at 200 mV (Find Threshold), Hysteresis medium.
Set vertical scale to 50µs/div and increase step by step. Note a glitch at 1ms/div. At 100ms/div, threshold goes to 62,92V and the Counter stops working. Also, try to start at horizontal scale 100 ms/div, change down to 50 mv/div. Threshold value goes above the roof again.
On an additional note, I find the Persistence feature really not doing it's job properly. When facing a rare glitch in the waveform, it will shop up as a shadow on the screen, which is fine. However, the persistence setting doesn't seem to affect it's brightness, only the brightness of the regular waveform. Until 100% brightness is reached, then the glitches are displayed in full brightness. I do have a problem reproducing this though, so I'm a bit reluctant to call it a bug at this stage.
Also a couple of feature requests:
Search in zoom mode; it would be great if the zoomed in area followed the search selection, i.e when rotating the selection knob. And a next/prev button besides the search results list would be an improvement.
I think the history (segmented memory) is one of the features that makes this scope stand up above the crowd. It would be super-awesome if it would be possible to search for stuff in the history, similar to how search in waveform works.
Toolbar (upper left): I miss the ability to put the Counter there, I use that a lot, and also the History. Funny, since the Meter is there as well as Search (which also has a dedicated button). Why can some functions be put there but not others?
Don't get me wrong, this is not intended as a whine and complain post; I love my new scope. And if I made some user errors in the reports in this post, please correct me.
--/Peter
Hi Rich,
can you help me in regards to the Arbitrary generator file format? The only information I was able to get from the user manual is that it should be in a CSV file, but no actual structure?
Thank you very much!
BR
in s,C1 in V
-1.9992E-03,-6.152E-01
-1.9968E-03,-5.371E-01
-1.9944E-03,-4.590E-01
-1.9920E-03,-5.762E-01
-1.9896E-03,-5.176E-01
-1.9872E-03,-5.566E-01
Hi Rich,Hi 1design - sorry for the slow reply, I've been traveling a lot the last week. Looks like Mike has you fixed up now.
can you help me in regards to the Arbitrary generator file format? The only information I was able to get from the user manual is that it should be in a CSV file, but no actual structure?
Thank you very much!
BR
Dear Rich,While both are very fine MSO scopes, if you want economical solution to CAN BUS /Flexray capture/decode best solution is Picoscope. Shuffling through pages of decodes are much better suited to large PC screen, and Picoscopes are available with ridiculous amounts of sample memory...
is there any (actual) chance, that CAN Bus FD and / or Flexray is implemented in (near) future?
Otherwise I'll have to go with a Keysight MSO3000T for 10k€ ... :-\
Thanks,
Ingo.
While both are very MSO fine scopes, if you wan't economical solution to CAN BUS /Flexray capture/decode best solution is Picoscope. Shuffling through pages of decodes are much better suited to large PC screen, and Picoscopes are available with ridiculous amounts of sample memory...You can have both if you save the decoded data into a CSV file and use a PC for analysis.
Of course, if you want classic scope, and will have to decode only occasionally then it might not be for you...
I'm supposed to be getting one of these.It's called the RTC1000, https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/nl/product/rtc1000-productstartpage_63493-515585.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/nl/product/rtc1000-productstartpage_63493-515585.html)
There is also a 1000 series, not sure if coming at the same time
I guess it is including the 640x480 display. :palm: I'd expected they at least upgraded to a higher resolution display.I'm supposed to be getting one of these.It's called the RTC1000, https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/nl/product/rtc1000-productstartpage_63493-515585.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/nl/product/rtc1000-productstartpage_63493-515585.html)
There is also a 1000 series, not sure if coming at the same time
Looks like a replacement of the Hameg HMO1000 series as a result of the R&S Hameg merger.
@mike this can be something for you ... as i remember you once struggeld with the Hold-Off menu on the RTB2000Didn't struggle, just that it was too far down the menu so you had to scroll to reach it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbG4MCU4NPo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbG4MCU4NPo)
Anyone know of a Probe BNC adapter for the RTB probes?The RTB probes are compatible with this kit (made by the same OEM and includes the BNC adapter), which is an absolute bargain if you're within reach of RS:
Thanks, great deal, bought it in an instance.. elsewhere they go for €50..Anyone know of a Probe BNC adapter for the RTB probes?The RTB probes are compatible with this kit (made by the same OEM and includes the BNC adapter), which is an absolute bargain if you're within reach of RS:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/ (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/)
@mike this can be something for you ... as i remember you once struggeld with the Hold-Off menu on the RTB2000Didn't struggle, just that it was too far down the menu so you had to scroll to reach it
Didn't struggle, just that it was too far down the menu so you had to scroll to reach it
Quick access will come to the RTB2000 too :-+@mike this can be something for you ... as i remember you once struggeld with the Hold-Off menu on the RTB2000Didn't struggle, just that it was too far down the menu so you had to scroll to reach it
But, if I'm not wrong, there is no quick access auto-holdoff,also with this nice drag'n drop functionalityon the RTB2000.
So.... I guess we are not getting Basic (Math on Math)? :'(
So.... I guess we are not getting Basic (Math on Math)? :'(Never say never. I'm still pushing. Not something that is guaranteed yet, but it seems like a no-brainer to me to add it as it would clearly be quite useful and doesn't really matter from a differentiation standpoint (i.e. 2000 vs 3000). Initially, it didn't exist, so it was created as part of the 3000/4000 development. Now it exists - just a matter of me convincing the right people it should be added in. Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not - hopefully this time I am! :-+
So.... I guess we are not getting Basic (Math on Math)? :'(Never say never. I'm still pushing. Not something that is guaranteed yet, but it seems like a no-brainer to me to add it as it would clearly be quite useful and doesn't really matter from a differentiation standpoint (i.e. 2000 vs 3000). Initially, it didn't exist, so it was created as part of the 3000/4000 development. Now it exists - just a matter of me convincing the right people it should be added in. Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not - hopefully this time I am! :-+
-Rich
So.... I guess we are not getting Basic (Math on Math)? :'(Never say never. I'm still pushing. Not something that is guaranteed yet, but it seems like a no-brainer to me to add it as it would clearly be quite useful and doesn't really matter from a differentiation standpoint (i.e. 2000 vs 3000). Initially, it didn't exist, so it was created as part of the 3000/4000 development. Now it exists - just a matter of me convincing the right people it should be added in. Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not - hopefully this time I am! :-+
-Rich
Hi Laurent - I'm not sure. I'll see what I can find out.So.... I guess we are not getting Basic (Math on Math)? :'(Never say never. I'm still pushing. Not something that is guaranteed yet, but it seems like a no-brainer to me to add it as it would clearly be quite useful and doesn't really matter from a differentiation standpoint (i.e. 2000 vs 3000). Initially, it didn't exist, so it was created as part of the 3000/4000 development. Now it exists - just a matter of me convincing the right people it should be added in. Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not - hopefully this time I am! :-+
-Rich
And trying to parse out other spec differences, the flyer says 6 trigger types for the RTB and 7 for the RTM/RTA, but looking at the datasheets, I see runt, rise and fall time triggers on the RTM/RTA and not on the RTB. Is that correct? I assume that's a spec (sw) limitation, not a hw one, right?
Thanks, great deal, bought it in an instance.. elsewhere they go for €50..Anyone know of a Probe BNC adapter for the RTB probes?The RTB probes are compatible with this kit (made by the same OEM and includes the BNC adapter), which is an absolute bargain if you're within reach of RS:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/ (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/)
Yes, this (short ground springy clip) is a very useful thing....
Kit came in today and can highly recommend getting one as it not only includes spare tips, ground lead, etc. but also the missing short ground springy clip.
@Rich why is this very useful probe attribute not included with the scope.. can't be cost, even the Rigol's come with it..
Good suggestion - I'll pass it on.Thanks, great deal, bought it in an instance.. elsewhere they go for €50..Anyone know of a Probe BNC adapter for the RTB probes?The RTB probes are compatible with this kit (made by the same OEM and includes the BNC adapter), which is an absolute bargain if you're within reach of RS:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/ (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/)
Kit came in today and can highly recommend getting one as it not only includes spare tips, ground lead, etc. but also the missing short ground springy clip.
@Rich why is this very useful probe attribute not included with the scope.. can't be cost, even the Rigol's come with it..
I found something more.
Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.
Someone else may please do the same test?
@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?
Yes. As i can see (RTB2002), trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
Thank you for taking your time and perform this measurement.
I'm not at my office so I can't test this, but this sounds normal. It sounds like you are seeing the buffering of the waveforms and then plotting to the display. With the scope running at 50,000 wfms/s and the screen refreshing at 60Hz, we buffer about 1,000 wfms and then plot them. While it is plotting, you should see a longer dead-time. That plotting time may vary. Having said that, when I get back in front of my scope I'll test this out to see if it aligns with what I'm thinking and what you're seeing.I found something more.
Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.
Someone else may please do the same test?
@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?
Yes. As i can see (RTB2002) at the other scope, trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
I'm not at my office so I can't test this, but this sounds normal. It sounds like you are seeing the buffering of the waveforms and then plotting to the display. With the scope running at 50,000 wfms/s and the screen refreshing at 60Hz, we buffer about 1,000 wfms and then plot them. While it is plotting, you should see a longer dead-time. That plotting time may vary. Having said that, when I get back in front of my scope I'll test this out to see if it aligns with what I'm thinking and what you're seeing.I found something more.
Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.
Someone else may please do the same test?
@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?
Yes. As i can see (RTB2002) at the other scope, trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
-Rich
I'm not at my office so I can't test this, but this sounds normal. It sounds like you are seeing the buffering of the waveforms and then plotting to the display. With the scope running at 50,000 wfms/s and the screen refreshing at 60Hz, we buffer about 1,000 wfms and then plot them. While it is plotting, you should see a longer dead-time. That plotting time may vary. Having said that, when I get back in front of my scope I'll test this out to see if it aligns with what I'm thinking and what you're seeing.I found something more.
Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.
Someone else may please do the same test?
@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?
Yes. As i can see (RTB2002) at the other scope, trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
-Rich
Sorry - missed that post with the tables. I'm checking and will get back ASAP.I'm not at my office so I can't test this, but this sounds normal. It sounds like you are seeing the buffering of the waveforms and then plotting to the display. With the scope running at 50,000 wfms/s and the screen refreshing at 60Hz, we buffer about 1,000 wfms and then plot them. While it is plotting, you should see a longer dead-time. That plotting time may vary. Having said that, when I get back in front of my scope I'll test this out to see if it aligns with what I'm thinking and what you're seeing.I found something more.
Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.
Someone else may please do the same test?
@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?
Yes. As i can see (RTB2002) at the other scope, trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
-Rich
Thank you Rich for your answer but we are not even close @ 50kwfm/s or even 1k. In a previous post I've added a couple of tables with much lower wfm/s rates. In some occasion I can read as low as 20wfm/s.
Furthermore in the tables you can see a progressive increment from 200ms/div to 500us/div where the wfm rate drastically drop.
Just for curiosity: why 80ns/div and 40ns/div instead 100 and 50 respectively?
Best,
0xfede
Got an update from R&D this morning - they don't see exactly what you are seeing, but do see something similar at another timebase. It may be normal (sometimes there are interactions between the software and hardware that could cause this), but they are investigating.I'm not at my office so I can't test this, but this sounds normal. It sounds like you are seeing the buffering of the waveforms and then plotting to the display. With the scope running at 50,000 wfms/s and the screen refreshing at 60Hz, we buffer about 1,000 wfms and then plot them. While it is plotting, you should see a longer dead-time. That plotting time may vary. Having said that, when I get back in front of my scope I'll test this out to see if it aligns with what I'm thinking and what you're seeing.I found something more.
Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.
Someone else may please do the same test?
@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?
Yes. As i can see (RTB2002) at the other scope, trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
-Rich
Thanks Rich for your answer. My test was simpler than that, if i got you right. I'm only looking to pulses at trigger-aux-out in real time with second scope. The rtb2k has nothing to do as displaying the triggered 10Mhz square and showing the triggerpulses at aux.
Best regards.
Quick update on advanced math for the RTB2000 - no promises, but it is looking quite positive that we'll add it. Unlikely in the next rev (it is already pretty set), but hopefully in the following revision after that. :-+Number of channels ?
-Rich
I found something more.
Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.
Someone else may please do the same test?
@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?
Hello, I would like to ask those who have purchased "Active 8-channel logic-HO3508" or would you share the inside of this probe if it was not a problem? because he wants to know if it's worth to buy such a component, or designing it his way.See my teardown vid. There is quite a lot in it, would be a lot of work to DIY
Hello, I would like to ask those who have purchased "Active 8-channel logic-HO3508" or would you share the inside of this probe if it was not a problem? because he wants to know if it's worth to buy such a component, or designing it his way.See my teardown vid. There is quite a lot in it, would be a lot of work to DIY
when watching this video comparing the power consumption and the statistics of the X3000T and RTB2000, I'm wondering how can it be that the RTB2004 gathers more statistics although it by pure data-sheet has a lower update rate? https://youtu.be/LpjTisUQQ84?t=18m20sThey appear to be collecting statistic points at a similar speed in that video, the counts are increasing at the same rate when they are side by side looking at the oscillator. The slow measurement rate compared to the waveform rate is because the waveform rendering is a hardware/FPGA process, and in the Keysight the measurements are then taken from the rendered outputs (screen data) so it never sees the original samples (and wouldn't keep up). Whats the application for fast statistics? Most higher end scopes process the original samples and can do the statistics faster along with useful stats on stats like histograms, but those architectures don't reach the fastest realtime update rates.
Just saw a youtube video where RTB2004 has been measured at <0.5W power use in standby: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpjTisUQQ84 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpjTisUQQ84)Good thought - I'll pass it on to the team.
This lines up with my measurement (using a much cheaper meter which I didn't trust), and eliminates any concern I have regarding standby power use without a real ON/OFF control.
Rich - is there any reason why you guys don't put this number in the datasheet? If standby use was poor then I'd understand omitting it, but it seems low enough to be worth putting in the datasheet to assuage any fears of high standby use.
If you're doing a lot of serial decoding work, consider that the RTB2k will only decode at half duplex per decode channel - you get a total of one full duplex decode or two half duplex (I2C/CAN only take one channel). On the other hand, you can move/resize bus decodes on the screen and it's smart about fitting the maximum amount of info into whatever size you've picked. The screen and memory depth are also major positives compared to alternatives. I can't really comment more, having not used the 3000X series in person.It also does packet framing
RTB2004 Cons (vs 3000X):
*No 50ohm input (significant for me)
The option bundle special for R&S expires today, but I can't get my head around paying (2,080 + 630)*1.0975 ~= $3,000 for a 70MHz version of the scope
If you ever plan to use active probes consider the 3000x series or the new RS RTM3004 model.But bear in mind that used older Agilent probes ( i.e. cheaper) will only work on the Keysight (some need minor mods).
That's cool! :) Is xy mode refresh rate ~speedy or as slow as in other DSOs?Fast - as fast as normal display mode
Just accidentally discovered you can combine roll and XY modes :... application is hula hoop dancing ... :-DD
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/959025632830197761
I'm sure there must be some application for this....
I have narrowed a scope purchase to the R&S RTB2004 and Keysight 3000X series.
...
Just accidentally discovered you can combine roll and XY modes :
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/959025632830197761
I'm sure there must be some application for this....
Hey guys I just got the RTM 3004 scope for the week any suggestions on what should I test ??
UI responsiveness is no better than the 2004 - some aspects are fine but others can be really annoying (compared to Keysight) - buttons and touches getting missed, especially when the scope gets busier.Hey guys I just got the RTM 3004 scope for the week any suggestions on what should I test ??
UI responsiveness? May be a few drop tests? "How electrically robust is your is yourmeteroscilloscope"?
UI responsiveness is no better than the 2004 - some aspects are fine but others can be really annoying (compared to Keysight) - buttons and touches getting missed, especially when the scope gets busier.Hey guys I just got the RTM 3004 scope for the week any suggestions on what should I test ??
UI responsiveness? May be a few drop tests? "How electrically robust is your is yourmeteroscilloscope"?
Mine's completely silent when in standby
Just got my RTB2004. Has anyone else noticed a high pitch whine when the scope is in standby mode (mains plugged in, but scope off)? It is rather loud compared to my working environment.
I wonder if someone did an unbiased comparison of the RTB2K vs. the Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 as they should be roughly in the same price range, both have a touch screen and comparable features and memory sizes.
The main technical difference seems 10bit (R&S) vs. 8bit (Lecroy) and 2.5 GSa/s (R&S) vs. 4 GSa/s (Lecroy) sampling rate - where I would honestly value the sampling rate higher.
E.g. from browsing the manual, the R&S seems to miss a complex trigger feature while the Lecroy has a "Smart Trigger" which allows at least a bit of complexity. But maybe I'm mistaken regarding the R&S.
I'm also not sure if the search functions of the R&S come close to the "WaveScan" feature of the Lecroys.
Then again, I used a Wavesurfer 3000 at work and found it to be quite a bit sluggish (compared to a bigger Lecroy) and some things to be annoying like it entering the roll mode early on higher time bases.
At least from the videos I saw, the GUI of the R&S seems to be a bit sleeker.
I wonder if someone did an unbiased comparison of the RTB2K vs. the Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 as they should be roughly in the same price range, both have a touch screen and comparable features and memory sizes.- UI in the WS3k is slow as hell when record lenght is more than 100kpts
The main technical difference seems 10bit (R&S) vs. 8bit (Lecroy) and 2.5 GSa/s (R&S) vs. 4 GSa/s (Lecroy) sampling rate - where I would honestly value the sampling rate higher.
E.g. from browsing the manual, the R&S seems to miss a complex trigger feature while the Lecroy has a "Smart Trigger" which allows at least a bit of complexity. But maybe I'm mistaken regarding the R&S.
I'm also not sure if the search functions of the R&S come close to the "WaveScan" feature of the Lecroys.
Then again, I used a Wavesurfer 3000 at work and found it to be quite a bit sluggish (compared to a bigger Lecroy) and some things to be annoying like it entering the roll mode early on higher time bases.
At least from the videos I saw, the GUI of the R&S seems to be a bit sleeker.
The RTM3K supports multiple edge triggers - it's possible these may find their way to the 2000
Anyway: any remark on the trigger system of the RTB2K? Like I totally love the multi stage trigger system of higher end Lecroys and when I last played with the smart trigger of the WS3K it seemed to offer at least two conditions with a timing to allow something like triggering on the 2nd edge that occurs within 20ms or so. At least from reading the manual of the R2BK it's unclear to me if something like this could be achieved with the pattern trigger.
Admittedly I really only used WaveScan in higher end Lecroys and not in the WS3K series but having e.g. hundreds of adjacent periods for analysis is something completely different than being able to trigger on a period.
I mean, it's not rocket science but it saved me from exporting data and running scripts on it in some cases.
And I don't care for a large deadtime if heavy analysis is done on the whole capture buffer and wouldn't want to sacrifice it for the pseudo-analog look of the Keysight DSOX scopes that can only perform analysis on the frame buffer. In the end, every scope has a deadtime during analysis. I understand that there are two different ideologies there and I'm clearly on the Lecroy side of it.
Anyway back on topic: do these scope let you DISPLAY a measurement trace? for example, i've set up "frequency" measurement, "frequency" trace should show a horizontal segment on each wave cycle, the level of the segment is the frequency of the wave cycle
Anyway back on topic: do these scope let you DISPLAY a measurement trace? for example, i've set up "frequency" measurement, "frequency" trace should show a horizontal segment on each wave cycle, the level of the segment is the frequency of the wave cycleNot as far as I can tell, on either the RTB2000 or RTM3000
Yesterday found a feature of the new 2.0 firmware. And it has an effect!
No, AFAICS the R&S scopes don't have this facility
The orange trace is a math trace with the formula 5*duty(B)/100
this is a very useful feature in both the pico and the keysight, i'd like to know if the RTB/RTM had that feature
(what's with the deep measurement thing? is it only on the new beta? i tend not to run the beta because i have a lot of crashes compared to zero with the stable application. also, if it's what i think it is, i suppose i won't need that as i'm using an older 2000A series with 48 kpts of memory, it always uses the full trace for decode+measurements)
DeapMeasure is only in beta so far. It works by measuring few important params for every single period in buffer (or across all buffers) and creates statistic table. You can export it to XLS file directly and make statistical analysis. It has potential. We will see..
I have been using my Picoscope a lot lately. It's just much quicker for some things, and 24" screen is just awesome.... And math is very advanced. That helps a lot too... Also, custom probes are a fantastic thing...
All in all, while it cannot replace full blown scope all the time, it is well worth money I paid for it.
oooh.. very nice. That's one half of what wavescan does, indeed. The other half would be triggering on certain conditions.. which the pico can't do as it can only trigger on edges / windows of edges
I also find a PC connected scope is a useful addition to a bench scope for analysis type tasks. PC based stuff sometimes gets a bad rep for lack of buttons&knobs but I think it's more about having the right tool for the job, which is sometimes a bench unit and sometimes a PC one.
I wonder if someone did an unbiased comparison of the RTB2K vs. the Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 as they should be roughly in the same price range, both have a touch screen and comparable features and memory sizes.
The main technical difference seems 10bit (R&S) vs. 8bit (Lecroy) and 2.5 GSa/s (R&S) vs. 4 GSa/s (Lecroy) sampling rate - where I would honestly value the sampling rate higher.
E.g. from browsing the manual, the R&S seems to miss a complex trigger feature while the Lecroy has a "Smart Trigger" which allows at least a bit of complexity. But maybe I'm mistaken regarding the R&S.
I'm also not sure if the search functions of the R&S come close to the "WaveScan" feature of the Lecroys.
Then again, I used a Wavesurfer 3000 at work and found it to be quite a bit sluggish (compared to a bigger Lecroy) and some things to be annoying like it entering the roll mode early on higher time bases.
At least from the videos I saw, the GUI of the R&S seems to be a bit sleeker.
Just got my RTB2004. Has anyone else noticed a high pitch whine when the scope is in standby mode (mains plugged in, but scope off)? It is rather loud compared to my working environment.
The fact that the RTM3004 can do 6M suggest the hardware should be at least capable of that
I like it very much so far, UI sluggishness is ok, but one thing bothers the h3ck out of me, and that's the 3MBit UART decoder. The HMO could do 31MBit, and in version 400 of the datasheet from last year the RTB2000 series could do 32MBit as well. But, already in datasheet version 402 they degraded it to 3MBit.
Even the Keysight can do 8MBit / s.Even the Keysight 1000 can do UART to 10M ( user settable up to 8, then fixed 10), and the MSOX3000 can also do 12M
And, fun fact:On the RTM3004, CAN is still only up to 2M, but LIN is up to 5M
- CAN is specified @5Mbit, but you can only select 2 Mbit in the firmware 2.00
- LIN is specified @5MBit, but you can only select 2.52MBit in the firmware 2.00
Too much money :-\
This is more reasonable:
http://www.planomolding.com/hunting/handgun/all-weather-pistol-case-large (http://www.planomolding.com/hunting/handgun/all-weather-pistol-case-large)
https://www.amazon.com/Plano-108021-Pistol-Accessories-Latches/dp/B0029KKWVQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1521750381&sr=8-2&keywords=plano+108021&dpID=516uKEbT7YL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch (https://www.amazon.com/Plano-108021-Pistol-Accessories-Latches/dp/B0029KKWVQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1521750381&sr=8-2&keywords=plano+108021&dpID=516uKEbT7YL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch)
I'm sure there are other options. I haven't looked for soft cases yet. :-//
Hopefully, R&S will still remember things like promised functionalities, such as the necessary advanced math. trigger possibilities, and already mentioned things like drag'n drop quick access, etc.
It's getting a bit too quiet around the RTB2K.
Hello Rich, what's new out there in the moment? ;D
Hopefully, R&S will still remember things like promised functionalities, such as the necessary advanced math. trigger possibilities, and already mentioned things like drag'n drop quick access, etc.
It's getting a bit too quiet around the RTB2K.
Hello Rich, what's new out there in the moment? ;D
I don't think R&S promised anything and I would personally not have any such expectations. Just be pleasantly surprised if they do add some what has been common and basic functions present in low end scopes that are missing.
Hopefully, R&S will still remember things like promised functionalities, such as the necessary advanced math. trigger possibilities, and already mentioned things like drag'n drop quick access, etc.Haven't forgotten, and as far as I know they are still planned, but as mentioned before, the advanced math will likely be in the summer timeframe. Not sure on the quick access (could be the next release or perhaps the summer).
It's getting a bit too quiet around the RTB2K.
Hello Rich, what's new out there in the moment? ;D
I don't think R&S promised anything and I would personally not have any such expectations. Just be pleasantly surprised if they do add some what has been common and basic functions present in low end scopes that are missing.
It always cracks me when people say things like this. This scope can do more than most people are capable of or need. Low end scopes cost $249, have 50M bandwidth and cases with holes that don't fit just right.
Glad I can make you laugh. I have a full option RTB2004 and do like it, but the fact is, some lower end scopes have some features the RTB does not.For example ?
Perhaps low-end is the wrong term but 1Mpts FFT and free-form math (for example) can be found on good oscilloscopes which are much cheaper (while having the same bandwidth) compared to the regular price of the RTB2004. As I wrote before: the RTB2004 really needs to offer more bang-for-the-buck to be competitive. A bigger screen and 10 bit ADCs aren't going to do it.I don't think R&S promised anything and I would personally not have any such expectations. Just be pleasantly surprised if they do add some what has been common and basic functions present in low end scopes that are missing.It always cracks me when people say things like this. This scope can do more than most people are capable of or need. Low end scopes cost $249, have 50M bandwidth and cases with holes that don't fit just right.
Glad I can make you laugh. I have a full option RTB2004 and do like it, but the fact is, some lower end scopes have some features the RTB does not.For example ?
Hopefully, R&S will still remember things like promised functionalities, such as the necessary advanced math. trigger possibilities, and already mentioned things like drag'n drop quick access, etc.Haven't forgotten, and as far as I know they are still planned, but as mentioned before, the advanced math will likely be in the summer timeframe. Not sure on the quick access (could be the next release or perhaps the summer).
It's getting a bit too quiet around the RTB2K.
Hello Rich, what's new out there in the moment? ;D
In general, I expect new FW updates about every 3-4 months for the 2000/3000/4000. We just introduced the 3000/4000 in January. 3-4 months will put us in April/May which aligns with the R&D team's expectations as well. Of course that could change (faster/slower), but on average that is what I expect we'll see. :-+
-Rich
SDS1204X has better math, so do others. To be closer in performance, the SDS2304 series. There are some things I measure that good intensity grading would be nice, The RTB does not do a great job at it,Not familiar with the cheaper scopes, but certainly compared to the Keysight, the intensity grading on the RTB definitely has room for improvement - probably just needs some tweaking of the curve. I think an issue is they don't compensate for the effect of the small pixels on avarage intensity - this is a particular issue on digital channels, where the verticals disappear at all but the brightest intensity setting.
Hi Rich,
So does this mean some of these wishlist items have moved from maybe to plan of record?
I would personally not have any such expectations. Just be pleasantly surprised if they do add some what has been common and basic functions present in low end scopes that are missing.
Hi Rich,
So does this mean some of these wishlist items have moved from maybe to plan of record?
Your own words:QuoteI would personally not have any such expectations. Just be pleasantly surprised if they do add some what has been common and basic functions present in low end scopes that are missing.
Lacked there about the irony-tags ... :palm:
:horse:
If they are now plan of record, that would be a pleasant surprise. So what's the issue??
Hello Rich,Hi 0xfede - I just tried to reproduce this and it seems to be working fine for me, but perhaps my setup was too simple (just changed the attenuation to 1000:1, saved and then reloaded and it was still set at 1000:1) - would you mind PM'ing me how you saw it?
I just spotted another minor bug:
the probe ratio is not restored when loading a setup.
Best,
0xfede
Hi 0xfede - I just tried to reproduce this and it seems to be working fine for me, but perhaps my setup was too simple (just changed the attenuation to 1000:1, saved and then reloaded and it was still set at 1000:1) - would you mind PM'ing me how you saw it?
I did a preset, so it returned to 1:1 before loading the saved setup (but also just tried your suggestion too and it still worked).Hi 0xfede - I just tried to reproduce this and it seems to be working fine for me, but perhaps my setup was too simple (just changed the attenuation to 1000:1, saved and then reloaded and it was still set at 1000:1) - would you mind PM'ing me how you saw it?
I think you should save, change it (10:1) and then do the restore...
One thing to note - if you have a probe attached (e.g. a passive probe with a sense resistor), it will maintain what the probe setting is (in this case 10:1) even if you try to load a setup with a different attenuation. Perhaps this is what you're seeing?The 2004 doesn't have probe sensing
Duh - I’m an idiot. :-[. I was trying this on my 3000. Sorry folks. I’ll reproduce on my 2000 and submit.One thing to note - if you have a probe attached (e.g. a passive probe with a sense resistor), it will maintain what the probe setting is (in this case 10:1) even if you try to load a setup with a different attenuation. Perhaps this is what you're seeing?The 2004 doesn't have probe sensing
Duh - I’m an idiot. :-[. I was trying this on my 3000. Sorry folks. I’ll reproduce on my 2000 and submit.One thing to note - if you have a probe attached (e.g. a passive probe with a sense resistor), it will maintain what the probe setting is (in this case 10:1) even if you try to load a setup with a different attenuation. Perhaps this is what you're seeing?The 2004 doesn't have probe sensing
-Rich
My rtb2004 goes to a state were it only let's my switch on one single channel. As soon as I try to activate another channel the first switches of.
I couldn't find a mention of this "feature" in the manual, nor did a google and forum search turn anything up. It disapears when I boot back with default parameters, still it is very annoying.
Any idea how to switch that off?
Haven't forgotten, and as far as I know they are still planned, but as mentioned before, the advanced math will likely be in the summer timeframe. Not sure on the quick access (could be the next release or perhaps the summer).
In general, I expect new FW updates about every 3-4 months for the 2000/3000/4000. We just introduced the 3000/4000 in January. 3-4 months will put us in April/May which aligns with the R&D team's expectations as well. Of course that could change (faster/slower), but on average that is what I expect we'll see. :-+
-Rich
Hi, just got my RTB2004 (100mhz & all decode option upgraded). I noticed that if you use I2C decoding, and disconnect the SDA, the scope hangs. This is reproducible by just using the demo included in the scope.Hi glowman - thanks for posting such a detailed explanation. This is fixed in the next release (it's tied to ASCII decode).
Just to make sure I did the right thing, here are the steps I did:
- Press "preset" (just to make sure all are in default)
- Under demo, protocols, run I2C
- Connect probes C1 and C2 to P0 and P1 respectively as instructed.
- Adjust trigger level to get proper trigger (scope then shows decoded output)
- After a few seconds (30 seconds or so) disconnect the C2 probe
Whole unit now "hangs" all buttons/presses unresponsive except the soft power button. Sometimes it won't hang right away but, if you reconnect and disconnect for few seconds (with natural contact bounce of the probe) it hangs.
Can anyone please test this to verify? Did I do something wrong? I mean, is it a natural tendency to hang if it's done?
Thanks.
Can anyone please test this to verify? Did I do something wrong? I mean, is it a natural tendency to hang if it's done?RTB2002 @70mhz, RTB-B1, RTB-PK1, same issue.
Thanks.
...
I'm not sure that I understand the R&S bandwidth upgrade pricing either. It looks like you might pay more to upgrade the BW later? I'm referencing this options/pricing list:
https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=457823 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=457823)
I believe the plan is to eventually set up each BW step, but in the meantime, at least in the US, we just discount it out for customers so they only pay for the step needed....
I'm not sure that I understand the R&S bandwidth upgrade pricing either. It looks like you might pay more to upgrade the BW later? I'm referencing this options/pricing list:
https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=457823 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=457823)
I am having the same question and it has not unfortunately been answered here.
E.g. User has bought the 70 to 100 MHz upgrade (RTB-B241) and now wants to upgrade from 100 MHz to 200 or even 300 MHz, how would that work? Is the licence cost for the 70 MHz to 100 MHz upgrade deducted from the cost to upgrade from 70 MHz to 200 or 300 MHz? Every catalogue item only takes the upgrade starting from 70 MHz into account.
@Rich, can you please clarify this?
Hi Rich, any updates on the firmware? Any goodies in?Yes - should be out this week or early next for the 2000. There are some of the goodies we've talked about (e.g. quick access of the menus being added to the 2000), with some additional ones still planned for the next release - like advanced math (I'm expecting late summer to early fall for that one).
Any updates on the release date of the new firmware for RTB2004/2? It's almost the end of the week...I think the developers had too much Bradwurst & beer on the 1st of May ;D
hi Rich,My understanding is any day. I apologize and know everyone is patiently waiting. Sorry for the delay :-\
Any updates on the release date of the new firmware for RTB2004/2? It's almost the end of the week...
Thanks.
:-DD There are a lot of German holidays in May!Any updates on the release date of the new firmware for RTB2004/2? It's almost the end of the week...I think the developers had too much Bradwurst & beer on the 1st of May ;D
Any updates on the release date of the new firmware for RTB2004/2? It's almost the end of the week...I think the developers had too much Bradwurst & beer on the 1st of May ;D
Thats true. And because it is often a Tuesday or Thursday, people use the Monday or Friday as a bank holiday and sometimes people take a week off here::-DD There are a lot of German holidays in May!Any updates on the release date of the new firmware for RTB2004/2? It's almost the end of the week...I think the developers had too much Bradwurst & beer on the 1st of May ;D
-Rich
I am also looking forward to the new firmware update. I have made a number of videos about my RTB2004 on YouTube (“MichaelBRothschild”) and am looking forward to making a video with the updated firmware and its new features. Hope the update is soon. Please Rich could you advise release date for firmware? Many thanks MichaelHi Michael,
Wow, that's a big afterburner. Thanks a lot.My understanding is that is (currently) planned in the late summer/early fall release. :-+
(Ok, than additionally math-triggerfunction next time? ;) )
:-+ :-+
Thanks for the quick response Octane. A rep is coming here next Wednesday to give us a demo, so we can check that out then.Connecting these to the network might not be possible here, but we shall see. No network switches allowed in our establishment. :(
With a web based interface OTOH you only need a standard web browser and it should even be possible to use a smartphone or tablet to do screen captures.
Hi,And live screen update and remote control.
The web interface lets you capture screenshots and transfer data easily.
Michael
Note: new User Manual v06 posted.
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/manual/rtb2000/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/manual/rtb2000/)
Minor changes from what I can tell. I found the following:
* Quick Access
* Auto scale in probe menu
* Zoom icon
* Features in segment table (average, envelop, overlay)
* FFT screen seems to have a slightly differen tlayout at the bottm (they changed the pic)
I found another bug, when i was working with UART (RTB configured for 9 data bits and Terminal configured for 8 data bits + parity odd). The display sometimes doesnt clear correctly, resulting in showing the current AND the last waveform. I love the scope, but things like this are annoying, thinking of the price i paid. I use the current firmware V02.101. To reproduce the error hold down a key in the Terminal (e.g. Putty) resulting in continuous triggering, then press a second key on the keyboard. Maybe this error can be reproduced with other settings, but that was what i was working on:Hi robotrovsky - I tried to PM you back, but it says your inbox is full. This doesn't appear to be a bug as the signal has different pulse widths and with an edge trigger you could see both of those appear on the display at the same time (our update rate is fast enough that we have to plot lots of waveforms at one time). Do you still see this issue if you use an advanced trigger like?
Hi robotrovsky - I tried to PM you back, but it says your inbox is full.This is due to the (almost unknown) fact that new users can only receive 3 (or 5?) PMs, after this they will not be able to receive more PMs (sender are being told that the mailbox is full). New users need to write at least 5 regular postings before the mailbox is active again. I too was (and still are) not able to send messages to some users several times because of this anti spam 'feature'. What's cruel is, that the recipient won't know about it. This is a very unfortunate anti spam solution! Users should get a message (or PM) telling them this fact after they registered.
I found another bug, when i was working with UART (RTB configured for 9 data bits and Terminal configured for 8 data bits + parity odd). The display sometimes doesnt clear correctly, resulting in showing the current AND the last waveform. I love the scope, but things like this are annoying, thinking of the price i paid. I use the current firmware V02.101. To reproduce the error hold down a key in the Terminal (e.g. Putty) resulting in continuous triggering, then press a second key on the keyboard. Maybe this error can be reproduced with other settings, but that was what i was working on:Hi robotrovsky - I tried to PM you back, but it says your inbox is full. This doesn't appear to be a bug as the signal has different pulse widths and with an edge trigger you could see both of those appear on the display at the same time (our update rate is fast enough that we have to plot lots of waveforms at one time). Do you still see this issue if you use an advanced trigger like?
• trigger on start frame of uart
• trigger on pulse width
• use trigger hold off time
-Rich
I found another bug, when i was working with UART (RTB configured for 9 data bits and Terminal configured for 8 data bits + parity odd). The display sometimes doesnt clear correctly, resulting in showing the current AND the last waveform. I love the scope, but things like this are annoying, thinking of the price i paid. I use the current firmware V02.101. To reproduce the error hold down a key in the Terminal (e.g. Putty) resulting in continuous triggering, then press a second key on the keyboard. Maybe this error can be reproduced with other settings, but that was what i was working on:Hi robotrovsky - I tried to PM you back, but it says your inbox is full. This doesn't appear to be a bug as the signal has different pulse widths and with an edge trigger you could see both of those appear on the display at the same time (our update rate is fast enough that we have to plot lots of waveforms at one time). Do you still see this issue if you use an advanced trigger like?
• trigger on start frame of uart
• trigger on pulse width
• use trigger hold off time
-Rich
LOL. It's a feature.. You should use complicated trigger that will ensure retrigger slowdown, so our poor display engine will have time only to paint waveforms once..
With do all respect, how is that not a bug? You cannot show ANYTHING except last trigger event. Display persistence have no place here.
What is this, an artsy fartsy graphic tablet or a scope. From a premium manufacturer. For a premium price.
No wait, but you can paint on screen with your fingers... That's important.
Rigol can do it, Siglent can do it. For price that is less than one software option on R/S.
It's year and a half now since RTB2000 was released..
Get a grip. And that buggy, hipstery platform is used for 3000 and 4000. That cost a lots of money. Lots of money.
Bug fixes would really need to me a bit more aggressive (faster) at least until you weed out basic platform functions.
R&S was one of the legendary companies for many years. Good solid stuff. Expensive, but professional and worth every penny. Now, not so much, at least at this scope range.
Shame really...
I really hope you keep up with the reputation.
When big guys do it, it's not a bug, or not their fault...
I think that is exactly what the scope should do. If there are multiple triggers within one frame-time of the screen it should show all the events within this time, no? I thought that is what intensity grading is based on. So if you have two qualified trigger events within 16ms (assuming 60Hz LCD refresh rate; I know this is simplified ) then I would like to see both, no? Or should one just be thrown away? Do i miss something?The problem is that with 2 signals on screen you have no clue what is being decoded so yes, that is a problem.
I think that is exactly what the scope should do. If there are multiple triggers within one frame-time of the screen it should show all the events within this time, no? I thought that is what intensity grading is based on. So if you have two qualified trigger events within 16ms (assuming 60Hz LCD refresh rate; I know this is simplified ) then I would like to see both, no? Or should one just be thrown away? Do i miss something?The problem is that with 2 signals on screen you have no clue what is being decoded so yes, that is a problem.
I think that is exactly what the scope should do. If there are multiple triggers within one frame-time of the screen it should show all the events within this time, no? I thought that is what intensity grading is based on. So if you have two qualified trigger events within 16ms (assuming 60Hz LCD refresh rate; I know this is simplified ) then I would like to see both, no? Or should one just be thrown away? Do i miss something?
Michael
Seems like the answer then is triggering on what you want to see rather than randomly triggering on edges to see data or performing single shot captures rather than forcing trigger while it's sampling normally.
There cannot be several trigger events on same screen scan.:bullshit:
That isn't true at all. A DSO which can do several thousands of waveforms/s has to stack multiple waveforms into one screen refresh cycle (usually 60Hz). This has been explained on this forum many many times already.I think that is exactly what the scope should do. If there are multiple triggers within one frame-time of the screen it should show all the events within this time, no? I thought that is what intensity grading is based on. So if you have two qualified trigger events within 16ms (assuming 60Hz LCD refresh rate; I know this is simplified ) then I would like to see both, no? Or should one just be thrown away? Do i miss something?
Michael
Seems like the answer then is triggering on what you want to see rather than randomly triggering on edges to see data or performing single shot captures rather than forcing trigger while it's sampling normally.
I understand now what are you saying, and no, it doesn't work that way. You have a trigger, then scope disables triggering, it scans full screen to the end, rearms trigger, and waits for new trigger condition.
There cannot be several trigger events on same screen scan. Signal cannot be two different signals at the same time. You can have only one signal value at any given point in time.
I think that is exactly what the scope should do. If there are multiple triggers within one frame-time of the screen it should show all the events within this time, no? I thought that is what intensity grading is based on. So if you have two qualified trigger events within 16ms (assuming 60Hz LCD refresh rate; I know this is simplified ) then I would like to see both, no? Or should one just be thrown away? Do i miss something?No, it's operator error.
Michael
That isn't true at all. A DSO which can do several thousands of waveforms/s has to stack multiple waveforms into one screen refresh cycle (usually 60Hz). This has been explained on this forum many many times already.
Normally this isn't a problem (and depending on the persistence setting wanted behaviour) but when using protocol decoding it is making it hard or even impossible to see which signal is being used for decoding.
I should clarify: with one screen time I don’t mean the time it takes the “beam” to go from left to right. I meant the refresh-rate of the display. So of course if your timebase is 10us and you have 10 horizontal divisions then the trigger will be disabled for at least 100us (if we assume no pre-trigger). But after those 100us it can trigger again. So if we refresh the display let’s say 10 times a second, we have 100ms of time to capture, in the best case, 1000 waveforms. And all of those can be shown (intensity graded) on the screen. If the waveform has two different pulsewidth (and you trigger on the rising edge you will see two falling edges on the screen. If you don’t use a more complex trigger, you can’t get around that (except maybe a long trigger hold-off).That's exactly what Trigger holdoff is for. Or a longer timebase and zoom mode
P.S.: I know that the numbers may not be fully realistic, I took those just to make a point.
Michael
I'm probably about to pull the trigger on eitherGW Instek MSO2204E . Price wise between all of them and it does give you deep memory and protocol decoding. I wouldn't consider the MSOX2024A because the memory is too small.
a RTB2K-COM4, and have a good 300MHz scope with everything that I need (~3.8k EUR w/o VAT)
a RTB2K-74M and see if I can hack it (~1.8k EUR w/o VAT)
a MSOX2024A with a bunch of options, used, from keysight's ebay, for 2.2k$
Any comments or alternatives I haven't considered?
GW Instek MSO2204E . Price wise between all of them and it does give you deep memory and protocol decoding. I wouldn't consider the MSOX2024A because the memory is too small.
Thanks for the pointers. Keysight hasn't been too attractive especially because of low memory and no warranty.
Education (student) discount from Datatec is ~30% for the -COM4, and I get the VAT back.
I'll look into the MSO2204E. Seems like a good option. -COM4 is still super attractive but also quite a bit steeper in price.
Just today while checking the firmware page, the new firmware 2.101 is gone and what's there is the one released last Nov. 2017. What happened? Did I miss something?
Hi Folks - I replied in the other thread, but didn't in this one. It does appear to be some website issue - I've asked Munich to look in to it and hope to have it fixed ASAP. Sorry for the trouble.
-Rich
Indeed, there have been a few changes.(translated from their German reply)
Version 2.101 was removed from our web site.
If you have this version - please do not use it.
At the moment version 2.0 is current
Yeah, I'm not entirely sure what the point of auto-single is. It just triggers by itself after a brief moment, so you have to switch to Norm and then single-shot.
Seems like an oversight to me. The RTM3000 goes into stop mode after you press the single button and a trigger occurs (either normal or auto mode).Yeah, I'm not entirely sure what the point of auto-single is. It just triggers by itself after a brief moment, so you have to switch to Norm and then single-shot.
Yes, I am surprised by the possibility to do it.
Found a bug on RTM3004, presumably same on RTB.This also applies to power-cycling - annotations should be preserved
When loading a setup, the annotations are not loaded (they are shown in the thumbnail).
My be classed as a mis-feature, but annotations can be as important as any other setup value - load setup should get you back to exactly where you were when saved.
Found a bug on RTM3004, presumably same on RTB.Good request - I'll submit it.
When loading a setup, the annotations are not loaded (they are shown in the thumbnail).
My be classed as a mis-feature, but annotations can be as important as any other setup value - load setup should get you back to exactly where you were when saved.
Another minor thing - when you are decoding a parallel bus, you can't turn off the display of the individual bus lines - the only thing you can do to clear some screen space is drag them to the edge of the screen.You can actually do this today - see the attached pic.
A way to turn off display of logic signals used for bus decoding would be a useful addition. 16 logic signals in a zoomed display gets pretty crowded!
The dynamic text scaling in decode can give some odd results sometimes - maybe better to decide on a size for the whole screen on each refresh ?Definitely strange - can you send me your exact settings? Thanks.
(Lower trace is clocked parallel bus mode)
OK but I'd argue rather non-obvious.Another minor thing - when you are decoding a parallel bus, you can't turn off the display of the individual bus lines - the only thing you can do to clear some screen space is drag them to the edge of the screen.You can actually do this today - see the attached pic.
A way to turn off display of logic signals used for bus decoding would be a useful addition. 16 logic signals in a zoomed display gets pretty crowded!
-Rich
It's pretty easy to replicate, just get it decoding something then adjust the sweep until it starts changing decoded bytes from vertical to horizontal display or vice-versa. At some point some of the decoded data will be shown in one orientation and some in another, depending on the space in each particular decode-hexagon thing. Still works, just looks messy. Probably would be visually better to default to the space-saving version until everything (on either the whole screen or at least within the same decoder-hexagon) can be shown in the same (wider) orientation then switch, rather than doing it byte-by-byte.Yes, it's when it's on the edge of two sizes. e.g. set the pattern gen to UART at 1MBaud, set up serial decode and then adjust the fine timebase- at 9.8uS some bytes flicker between different formats.
I actually got this trick from one of your own videos! You show that you can hide the digital channels and leave just the little "bit" trace above the serial decode.OK but I'd argue rather non-obvious.Another minor thing - when you are decoding a parallel bus, you can't turn off the display of the individual bus lines - the only thing you can do to clear some screen space is drag them to the edge of the screen.You can actually do this today - see the attached pic.
A way to turn off display of logic signals used for bus decoding would be a useful addition. 16 logic signals in a zoomed display gets pretty crowded!
-Rich
Looking back at the video, I think I did this by pressing the "Logic" button, hower that switches display of all logic channels on and off, so no good for what I wanted last time, which was a bus display alongside other loguic channels.I actually got this trick from one of your own videos! You show that you can hide the digital channels and leave just the little "bit" trace above the serial decode.OK but I'd argue rather non-obvious.Another minor thing - when you are decoding a parallel bus, you can't turn off the display of the individual bus lines - the only thing you can do to clear some screen space is drag them to the edge of the screen.You can actually do this today - see the attached pic.
A way to turn off display of logic signals used for bus decoding would be a useful addition. 16 logic signals in a zoomed display gets pretty crowded!
-Rich
Don't know if someone noticed a wiring problem with the logic probes. What is supposed to be right to left (D7-D0) is in actuality (D0-D7). Attached a few photo's to point out this wiring or labeling problem, pay attention to the green mark it flips over from right to left. QA should have caught this one in manufacturing.It doesn't really matter because you have to use the logic POD anyway. The actual connections on the connector may even be in a completely random order.
Running into a bug on the RTB2004 where the scope locks up when you try to save to USB with multiple channels visible and the "Vis. Channels" options selected as the Source. See attached image for an example. The scope is locked up hard and requires power cycling to get anything to work again.
I've observed this with firmware versions 2.101 and 2.121, using three different USB sticks (all of which work fine using other waveform save options, including History Data which successfully saves multiple files for a single channel).
Funny thing is that I was going to post a request to add the "Vis Channels" source and "History Data" points options to the web-based Save/Load interface since that would be my first choice for pulling data from the scope. But if it doesn't work...
One of these days they make a scope wtihout knobs or buttons... an entire touch screen :-DDThese already exist: the MicSig TO1000 series. No knobs at all except an on/off button.
We purchased 20 R&S RTB2000 series scopes at the university I work at. I have found that the web interface will not work with Chrome on our Windows 10 machines. It does however work with Firefox and Edge. Has anyone else had this problem?Hi eetechTom - like others have said, W10 and Chrome works well for me. Having said that, please call our technical support team to see if they can help you:
One of these days they make a scope wtihout knobs or buttons... an entire touch screen :-DDThese already exist: the MicSig TO1000 series. No knobs at all except an on/off button.
If the UI is designed for touch like on the RTB2000 and the RTM3000 then it works very well. I have an RTM3004 on my bench and the touch screen works like a charm. I'm only using the rotating knobs for horizontal and vertical positioning.
AFAIK the entire memory is decoded (which is what you want. Trust me!). Depending on your memory depth setting and samplerate there can be a lot of decoded data outside the screen. All in all it is not really avoidable to have decoded data off-screen as there will also be a part of the trace which isn't shown. You could use the fine time/div control to squeeze all the data and traces on screen but then the decoder information may not be readable.
Anyone still have the 2.000 firmware file (RTB200x_Firmware_V02.000.zip) - seems like I lost it from my computer and I'd like to revert.
Thanks.
Have any of you found or used an anti-reflective screen protector on the shiny RTB2K screen? If so, where did you get it? I'm searching Amazon now and found one that is larger and i could just trim it down. Thoughts?I found one that works well just searching antireflective screen protector, but couldn't find tbe right size so had to cut down.
Have any of you found or used an anti-reflective screen protector on the shiny RTB2K screen? If so, where did you get it? I'm searching Amazon now and found one that is larger and i could just trim it down. Thoughts?I found one that works well just searching antireflective screen protector, but couldn't find tbe right size so had to cut down.
Looks like everyone has found their answers (2.00 FW and screen protector - sorry I was slow to help). On a positive note, I can confirm the next firmware is in final manufacturing test and should release the week of 11/5. Stay tuned!
-Rich
Ha! I hope you aren't either. In addition to the normal bug fixes, here are some of the bigger additions for 2.201:Looks like everyone has found their answers (2.00 FW and screen protector - sorry I was slow to help). On a positive note, I can confirm the next firmware is in final manufacturing test and should release the week of 11/5. Stay tuned!
-Rich
I hope I'm not disappointed after all the hype! Haha.
Ha! I hope you aren't either. In addition to the normal bug fixes, here are some of the bigger additions for 2.201:Looks like everyone has found their answers (2.00 FW and screen protector - sorry I was slow to help). On a positive note, I can confirm the next firmware is in final manufacturing test and should release the week of 11/5. Stay tuned!
-Rich
I hope I'm not disappointed after all the hype! Haha.
-Math equations increase to five, and number of operators increased to 15 including differentiation and integration. Math on math is possible (some minor limitations)
-New 'Cut Waveform" feature for Option B6 (function generator) allows the user to select a portion of a captured waveform to load in to the arbitrary setup
-Burst feature for B6 allows user to specify a fixed number of cycles.
-Oscilloscope simultaneously displays cursor results with measurement statistics
-New capability for user to independently set offset and position values. User can assign vertical position knob now to control either
-Enhanced FFT usability
All of the above are free upgrades (the B6 enhancements clearly assume you have B6 installed).
-Rich
Sounds great, thanks for listening to user feedback. I look forward to the release!I haven't had a chance to play with it yet, but given we support that on the 3000/4000, I'm going to say it is highly likely. But I won't know until I get the FW to use.
Regarding math on math, does this include FFT on math (I recall that this is not currently possible, though I'm not infront of it right now so may be mistaken)?
RTA4000 series ? :-//Sorry yes. Brain getting fuzzed by too many freebie gunmy bears
AFAIK the RTA4000 series has been around for a while. I think this runs on a x86 processor using Windows to have more processing grunt for analytical and math tasks.RTA4000 series ? :-//Sorry yes. Brain getting fuzzed by too many freebie gunmy bears
It was definitely identical to RTM3004 in all noticeable respects, played with for 5 mins, only memory was different.I checked the datasheet and you are right. I probably was thinking about the RTO2000.
Hi Rich,Hi Hydron - not sure why the delay (perhaps they found an issue when it was released to manufacturing). I've asked for the latest and will update.
Any update on the release data? Obviously it didn't make it out last week as planned.
On another note Dave has pointed out an oddity in the timebase - I've seen it too but hadn't noticed that it's only 1-2-4-8-2 (vs 1-2-5-1-2 etc) in a single part of the range:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/)
Any comments?
Just saw the new RTA2004 at Electronica. Appears identical to the RTM3004 apart from 100M memory. WTF is going on with their series names..? Unlessmayme this will replace the RTM, but they were also.showing that.Hi Mike - it was released at the same time as the RTM3000. Yes, I know the naming is less than ideal |O (but at least we now have the latter part of the name correct - 2000/3000/4000 - hopefully we get all the way there on nomenclature in the future).
I propose RTFM series :)
Hi Rich,Glad you like it (all things considered). WRT to the 3Mbaud - pure guess on my part (I can investigate with R&D if you'd like), but it may be a limitation of the FPGA we use :-//
I use a RTB2004 as my daily scope and I really like it (minus the detents! |O). Any insight as to why UART decode is limited to 3Mbaud? Looking forward to the new FW update BTW.
Cheers!
Hi Rich,I'm still expecting it soon. No exact time - has to go through manufacturing test which is taking longer than I expected.
Any update on the release data? Obviously it didn't make it out last week as planned.
On another note Dave has pointed out an oddity in the timebase - I've seen it too but hadn't noticed that it's only 1-2-4-8-2 (vs 1-2-5-1-2 etc) in a single part of the range:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/)
Any comments?
Glad you like it (all things considered). WRT to the 3Mbaud - pure guess on my part (I can investigate with R&D if you'd like), but it may be a limitation of the FPGA we use :-//
-Rich
Hi Rich,I'm still expecting it soon. No exact time - has to go through manufacturing test which is taking longer than I expected.
Any update on the release data? Obviously it didn't make it out last week as planned.
On another note Dave has pointed out an oddity in the timebase - I've seen it too but hadn't noticed that it's only 1-2-4-8-2 (vs 1-2-5-1-2 etc) in a single part of the range:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/)
Any comments?
With respect to Dave's finding (and I'll update his thread too) - here's the response from R&D:
For this matter, the ratio between sampling rate and pixel per div are important. For 50 ns and 100 ns timebase, the result would non-integer numbers for the pixel per div, e.g. 0.63 for 50 ns at 1,25GSa/s. In principle this could be displayed, but it just would not look very good. For 40 ns and 80 ns the pixel per div are integers, so displaying the measurements looks better.
-Rich
While capturing images to show the issue highlighted in the "Timebase Quirk" video I found a couple of minor issuesHi Mike - 1. This was solved in the last firmware release from this summer. The latest firmware release is on the web now so you can also just wait for it (although the link doesn't work just yet).
1) 50MHz sinewave, timebase at 40ns/div. Copy to a reference waveform. the ref waveform gets a slightly different timebase setting (This does not happen on the RTM3004 at the same settings)
2) if you save a screenshot via the save/load button, it saves the screenshot before clearing the menu
Huh? Documenting what? The screenshot function itself...? making that function essentially useless :-//
2) if you save a screenshot via the save/load button, it saves the screenshot before clearing the menu
2. This is done on purpose for documentation.
-Rich
I see your point, but we have a number of customers who use the RTB2000 in education where they write lab manuals, etc and want the menu to show. So it's sort of a catch22.Huh? Documenting what? The screenshot function itself...? making that function essentially useless :-//
2) if you save a screenshot via the save/load button, it saves the screenshot before clearing the menu
2. This is done on purpose for documentation.
-Rich
I see your point, but we have a number of customers who use the RTB2000 in education where they write lab manuals, etc and want the menu to show. So it's sort of a catch22.Huh? Documenting what? The screenshot function itself...? making that function essentially useless :-//
2) if you save a screenshot via the save/load button, it saves the screenshot before clearing the menu
2. This is done on purpose for documentation.
-Rich
-Rich
I feel like there's some miscommunication going on. My RTB is unplugged right now but do you mean the screenshot menu showing up in the screenshot?
IMHO the file selection diaglog should dissapear before saving the file.Of course
OTOH there is a dedicated button for taking screenshots.True, however if, for example, you wanted to enter meaningful filenames before saving each screenshot, the screenshot menu is effectively useless.
Agreed, especially given the ease of input of filenames with an onscreen keyboard vs a rotary encoder. If educational users need it for their classroom manuals then please supply a few examples of this menu for them to include and make it usable again for the rest of us (the vast majority of users).IMHO the file selection diaglog should dissapear before saving the file.Of courseQuoteOTOH there is a dedicated button for taking screenshots.True, however if, for example, you wanted to enter meaningful filenames before saving each screenshot, the screenshot menu is effectively useless.
Agreed, especially given the ease of input of filenames with an onscreen keyboard vs a rotary encoder. If educational users need it for their classroom manuals then please supply a few examples of this menu for them to include and make it usable again for the rest of us (the vast majority of users).They don't even need to do that - just need to press the dedicated snapshot button while the menu is open
Link is still 404 BTW!
page is there but files are notLink is still 404 BTW!
This one? Worked fine for me yesterday and it still does:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=588922;image)
page is there but files are not
I see your point, but we have a number of customers who use the RTB2000 in education where they write lab manuals, etc and want the menu to show. So it's sort of a catch22.It's not a Catch-22, it's another option that should be added to the menu. Then all sensible people could turn it off.
-Rich
Basically now the FFT works more like a spectrum analyzer, you no longer have control of the Horizontal "Timebase", and as you adjust span/start/stop frequency (or the Horizontal Knobs) the Timebase and Samplerate are adjusted accordingly to keep Nyquist happy, there are no new Measurements, at least that I can see, and no you can't use the FFT trace as a source for measurements.
Its different, I need to use it more to decide if I'm convinced, so far I like it.
Math works as expected, at least what I tested so far, unfortunately we don't have filters, I know its not a feature usually found in this price range, but I was hopeful.
Maybe I'm missing something, but why is the Single Shot not Disabling Auto Trigger Bug/(Feature?) still a thing?
I might just save the output of the decoder to view it. Haven't tried but maybe you could grab it over USB?
IIRC I could get all of the data by saving it to CSV on the RTM3004. I'd expect it will work the same on the RTB2004.
I might just save the output of the decoder to view it. Haven't tried but maybe you could grab it over USB?IIRC I could get all of the data by saving it to CSV on the RTM3004. I'd expect it will work the same on the RTB2004.
I could export the output to CSV yes. So, no quick and easy way to view the entire frame in the bus table then? :-\
Where did you find the price for that option?
Does anybody know if it's possible to scroll horisontally in the protocol decoding bus table?Hi hansibull - horizontal scrolling is not available today. I've passed your feedback on to our R&D team for future enhancements.
This screenshot shows it quite clearly. I'm watching multiple datapackets on an RS485 bus. I'm looking at these 55-64 byte messages, but i'm not able to see the entire packet in the bus table, because it's too long + no horisontal scrolling AFAIK.
Is it possible to view the entire packet content in the bus table, or du I have to zoom into the waveform itself and look at the decoded data below?
Hi Rich,Hello COM2 , COM4 and PK1 owners are eligible for free K36 till July the 31st 2019 - however it seems it doesn't come just with FW upgrade but you have to contact your R&S sales reference instead. Maybe it will change but so far this is what we know.
How about people that bought the RTB2K-COM4 package? Can we receive K36 as a free upgrade as well?
Thanks!
Hi Folks - the K36 option is pretty nice. While it is a for charge option, it is actually a free upgrade for anyone who has purchased a PK1 (bundle package). It is also part of PK1 moving forward. Please PM me and I'll get you the instructions.
-Rich
Hi Rich,FYI - for those of you that have asked this similar question in the PMs, I can confirm that people who own RTx-COM2/COM4 will also receive the K36 as a free upgrade.
How about people that bought the RTB2K-COM4 package? Can we receive K36 as a free upgrade as well?
Thanks!
Rich,Hi Laurent - I believe it wasn't ready in all the firmwares (including 3000/4000) so the decision was made to hold off until it was ready across the entire family.
is there a story behind the release of K36 in this firmware version? It doesn't appear in the original release notes for 02.202 (only in the ones reposted this week), it was not in any marketing collateral until this week and it doesn't appear in the list of "inactive" options on the scope.
It looks like it was in the firmware, but the decision to market it happened after the firmware release.
...
it was not in any marketing collateral until this week and it doesn't appear in the list of "inactive" options on the scope.
...
...
it was not in any marketing collateral until this week and it doesn't appear in the list of "inactive" options on the scope.
...
"Inactive option" only shows deactivated and expired license, I've received my RTB2004 + RTB-PK1 PROMO :-+ and all options are blank, I have to go to the registering website before any of my PK1 options shows up.
AFAIK there's no way to get the exhaustive list of possible options on the scope.
Has anybody got a code yet?
Hi Folks - all PMs have been replied to.
And this is very much a manual process - the request actually ends up going to a group in Munich to handle, so please be patient. I know they are pretty overwhelmed and sometimes the first requests take a little figuring out before they can get it all going smoothly.
-Rich
Hi Folks - all PMs have been replied to.
And this is very much a manual process - the request actually ends up going to a group in Munich to handle, so please be patient. I know they are pretty overwhelmed and sometimes the first requests take a little figuring out before they can get it all going smoothly.
-Rich
Also received mine with no back and forth. I did add numbers from the box though so maybe that made it easier or they've got it all figured out now.When did you request the key? (I assume it is a COM4 bundle unit?) Still no word about mine (Monday being almost over), but as Rich said they are busy and I'm not in a rush so I'll give it a few days before chasing.
.... Not sure if it's an issue but you only seem to get three amplitude points for the gen output but you can set frequency and amplitude for them. ...
.... Not sure if it's an issue but you only seem to get three amplitude points for the gen output but you can set frequency and amplitude for them. ...
I can set the profil with up to 16 points with frequency and amplitude level each.
It is next to start and stop frequency.... Not sure if it's an issue but you only seem to get three amplitude points for the gen output but you can set frequency and amplitude for them. ...
I can set the profil with up to 16 points with frequency and amplitude level each.
I must have missed where you can add points then.
It is next to start and stop frequency.... Not sure if it's an issue but you only seem to get three amplitude points for the gen output but you can set frequency and amplitude for them. ...
I can set the profil with up to 16 points with frequency and amplitude level each.
I must have missed where you can add points then.
Hi Folks - All PMs replied.
-Rich
K36 is installed on one of the devices. Very good function.Hi MikeP - just PM'd you.
I tried to check the identity of the channels. 1-2 and 3-4 all is well. Using 2-3 and 3-2 (2-4 or 3-1) leads to some oddities.
Thank you very much!
PS I really miss the logarithmic scale in the FFT ... :(
when enabling HF Reject the trigger point is delayed by approx 2.1us (should be compensated automatically, I believe because other trigger filters are compensated) and if you switch the trigger source to a logic channel having HF Reject activated you cant trigger (edge) and you cant disable HF Reject until you switch back to an analog channel.I've noticed this one too
But... where did the release notes for V 02.202 go? In post 2277 the image there shows there *were* release notes at one time. What I'm finding now on the R&S site is the firmware itself in the .zip, but no release notes anymore. Rich - or anybody else - help?
Here is a copy (an updated one which mentions K36)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iylum08fw7gwmj1/RTB2000_Release_Notes_v02.202_v10.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/iylum08fw7gwmj1/RTB2000_Release_Notes_v02.202_v10.pdf?dl=0)
The only thing I'm wishing for is some of the RTM's math capabilities (LPF, HPF) to make it into the RTB.Same here, that would be awesome.
The only thing I'm wishing for is some of the RTM's math capabilities (LPF, HPF) to make it into the RTB.
The only thing I'm wishing for is some of the RTM's math capabilities (LPF, HPF) to make it into the RTB.I have not checked the latest RTM3000 firmware yet (too swamped with other stuff ATM) but in the previous version LPF and HPF are performed on decimated data -like any math operation-. This can screw up the filtering results.
Hi Rich,Glad you like it (all things considered). WRT to the 3Mbaud - pure guess on my part (I can investigate with R&D if you'd like), but it may be a limitation of the FPGA we use :-//
I use a RTB2004 as my daily scope and I really like it (minus the detents! |O). Any insight as to why UART decode is limited to 3Mbaud? Looking forward to the new FW update BTW.
Cheers!
-Rich
....
And if you insist on having perfect corners:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0076FJ7SS/
....
But... where did the release notes for V 02.202 go? In post 2277 the image there shows there *were* release notes at one time. What I'm finding now on the R&S site is the firmware itself in the .zip, but no release notes anymore. Rich - or anybody else - help?
Here is a copy (an updated one which mentions K36)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iylum08fw7gwmj1/RTB2000_Release_Notes_v02.202_v10.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/iylum08fw7gwmj1/RTB2000_Release_Notes_v02.202_v10.pdf?dl=0)
And if you insist on having perfect corners:Reading back in the thread - where has this been all my life (corner cutter for anti-glare screen film, etc)? :) I can think of so many things to use it on. Just ordered one from Amazon.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0076FJ7SS/
And if you insist on having perfect corners:Reading back in the thread - where has this been all my life (corner cutter for anti-glare screen film, etc)? :) I can think of so many things to use it on. Just ordered one from Amazon.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0076FJ7SS/
Anyone got recommendation for good anti-glare film for scopes?
Shame the bode is optional
I want to thank everyone here on the forum and elsewhere, but especially this forum, for the reviews, discussion, and information provided about the RTB2000 (and the other test equipment I have researched and bought over the years).Thanks AlexFerro - appreciate the kind words. For the bug, I'll submit this to our system, but you might also try running a self-alignment to see if it solves this as I haven't seen it on my units.
I can truthfully say that the launch promotion (as read about via the forum) significantly impacted my hobby by saving me time in tracking down very intermittent protocol faults and ruling out various causes (it turned out to be a corner case in my code), that would have been near impossible to find with my significantly older scopes and PC controlled logic analyzer as I left the scope on for a week with a carefully setup trigger condition. Prior to this experience, I never would have thought that it was worth having any MSO capability or protocol decodes in a scope and thus would not have purchased those capabilities at the future date I would have eventually purchased a modern scope.
To the general goal of a new product promotion being to get the product into the hands of evangelists, I will admit to not having influencing power over a large school or company lab, or a following on social media, but I now own an FPC1500 as well (as sadly for my wallet my interests take me to the 2.4GHz band ruling out most of the cheaper options), and with work being interested in upgrading our scope (a TDS2000B) to a newer scope, I have been advocating for a RTM3004, budget permitting, as we are familiar with my RTB2K from the few times I have brought it in to troubleshoot something our 60MHz scope doesn't do well (and of course all my personal use).
I'd also like to thank Rich for being a helpful company representative on the forum, R&S for retroactively including the Bode plot option in the bundle (and the promotion in the first place, if that wasn't clear above), and R&S support for very promptly activating the option for me.
And finally,today I somehow found a bug new to version 2.202. I managed to get the displayed trigger level to not actually line up with the waveform shown on the screen. I am not sure what I did to cause this, other than I was using the position offset, and I tried shifting the waveform on the screen later in the day and could not reproduce the issue. See the attached screen shot, it should be fairly clear that the trigger line does not line up with where the wave crosses 0 time and that the trigger voltage matches the point that the screen is displaying but clearly not where the hardware is.
The "RTB-B1 option" includes a license and probes for the MSO, as far as I know. It makes no sense to buy a license key without probes and vice versa.It would be nice to be able to buy the probes seperately. For example when they break or you want to leave a set of probes attached to a project (yes, that happens).
It would be nice to be able to buy the probes seperately. For example when they break or you want to leave a set of probes attached to a project (yes, that happens).
Hi Folks - all our scopes have the ability to upgrade after the fact to an MSO. Our 1000/2000/3000/4000 embedded scopes all require a license on the scope in addition to the probe set. We put the comparators in the pods which is part of the reason they are more expensive, but I'm fairly certain the flying leads are available for separate purchase so you could leave a lower cost item attached to a DUT and just move the pods. Let me know if anyone needs me to find that part number.
-Rich
...
We put the comparators in the pods which is part of the reason they are more expensive,
...
Ha! I knew the second I posted that I was going to get beat up :palm: You're right, the comparators aren't expensive. I guess my point was the ability to disconnect the flying leads which are less expensive. And thanks for the note on the service - R&S as a whole tries really hard. We aren't perfect, but I'd personally put us up there with the best....
We put the comparators in the pods which is part of the reason they are more expensive,
...
Yes, they are 4 x ADCMP562BRQ â 6 EUR (DK & co but obsolet), but you offer good service which then balances it out again.
:-+ ;)
Hey allNearly NZD4k inc GST for a 4ch 70 MHz DSO sounds crazy when the same $ could get you a 300 MHz 4ch DSO with some $ left over to put toward options. :popcorn:
I'm considering an RTB2004 and found that R&S have a bargain store where they sell (as far as I can tell) refurbished equipment. Does anyone have any experience with this store and can you tell me if the units come as new (with all accessories) with a warranty? Also I presume global shipping is offered?
On another note I have been looking at potentially purchasing it instead from element14/newark and I see they have the base model listed for $2080 USD on their US website while it is about $3800 NZD on their NZ website (excluding GST).
https://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2004/digital-storage-osc-70mhz-4-ch/dp/11AC0569 (https://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2004/digital-storage-osc-70mhz-4-ch/dp/11AC0569)
https://nz.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2004-rtb2k-74/digital-storage-osc-70mhz-2-ch/dp/2723115?st=rtb2004 (https://nz.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2004-rtb2k-74/digital-storage-osc-70mhz-2-ch/dp/2723115?st=rtb2004)
I am curious as to why the NZ site has it listed for so much more when at the current exchange rate 2080 USD is just over $3000 NZD... anyone know the reasoning for this?....
And i thought that price hike was ridiculous till I contacted my local distributor who quoted between $5-6k for the base model.
Thanks for any help, Aidan
Nearly NZD4k inc GST for a 4ch 70 MHz DSO sounds crazy when the same $ could get you a 300 MHz 4ch DSO with some $ left over to put toward options. :popcorn:
I have an RTM3004 as a daily driver scope and the glossy screen doesn't bother me at all.It's very dependent on positioning - not an issue if nothing's reflected in it, showstopper if something is.
I have an RTM3004 as a daily driver scope and the glossy screen doesn't bother me at all.It's very dependent on positioning - not an issue if nothing's reflected in it, showstopper if something is.
As for the price it's the same old story with distributors fucking NZ basically because they can. And they wonder why people buy everything over the net - it's not the GST, it's the massive ripoff factor (normally >>15%)!
well we all know by now that the shiny screen is controversial and depends on preference (its been discussed to death in this thread, and yes, I read it all.)
As for the price it's the same old story with distributors fucking NZ basically because they can. And they wonder why people buy everything over the net - it's not the GST, it's the massive ripoff factor (normally >>15%)!
Anyhow, I find it extremely irritating that I have to pay a ~$700 premium simply because I live somewhere else. I can deal with 15% GST but screwing people over just because is ridiculous.
Has anyone here had experience (or know someone who has had experience) with the R&S Global Bargain Shop? If I can get it from there then its almost a no-brainer but I don't like how little their website says.
Hi Rich,FYI - for those of you that have asked this similar question in the PMs, I can confirm that people who own RTx-COM2/COM4 will also receive the K36 as a free upgrade.
How about people that bought the RTB2K-COM4 package? Can we receive K36 as a free upgrade as well?
Thanks!
-Rich
Hi Markus - it is available worldwide for anyone who purchased a PK1 or COM4 model. Please send me a PM and I'll give you the details on how to request it.Hi Rich,FYI - for those of you that have asked this similar question in the PMs, I can confirm that people who own RTx-COM2/COM4 will also receive the K36 as a free upgrade.
How about people that bought the RTB2K-COM4 package? Can we receive K36 as a free upgrade as well?
Thanks!
-Rich
Hello Rich,
is this a special offer in USA again? I haven't found any information on how to apply for the free upgrade. I bought the RTB-PK1 from Farnell.
If this is not a limited offer it would be nice to post the necessary information here.
Markus
I don't understand the results of the SCPI command :SRATe?The documentation doesn't seem very clear about it, I am writing a sigrok driver (hopefully to the entire R&S family), and which command you use depends on where you take the data from (CHAN:DATA:POIN DEF/DMAX/MEM), if you use DEF it gives you a little more than the screen data (around 100kSa) and you need to use ACQ:SRAT? and if you use DMAX/MEM you need to use ACQ:POIN:ARAT?. I haven't tested all cases to make sure it works 100%, but so far it seems to work.
How is the waveform sample rate calculated?
Acquisition Record Length: 1 MSa
Time scale: 50 µs/
:ACQuire:POINts:ARATe?;:ACQuire:SRATe?
"1.2500E+09;2.08E+08"
ADC sample rate: 1.25 GSa/s
Waveform sample rate: 208 MSa/s
My attempt at calculation:
12 * 50 µs = 600 µs
1 s / 0.0006 s = 1666.67
1.25 GSa / 1666.67 = 750000 Sa
History No. of Segments is 319 * 750000 Sa = 239.25 MSa/s
Is the 1 MSa record length interpolated when reading the data?
Peter
Where is the best place to send errors and change requests?Hi Peter - that is the correct email address for Austria. It is monitored 24/7, so if it was picked up by another region it sometimes takes a bit to get routed to the correct region. If you write it in German I bet it will be routed quicker by non-German speaking regions ;D
I wrote the question to customersupport(at)rohde-schwarz.com but didn't get an answer.
The e-mail address was from R&S Austria, I prefer to write in German than in English.
I can also post here, but suspect that it will be ignored.
Peter
The record length is set to automatic.
1. Normal Trigger: 20 µs/, 2.5 GSa/s
2. Change to 50 µs/: 625 MSa/s
3. Change to Auto Trigger: 2.5 GSa/s
Peter
The probes are compensated. The RTB2k offers its own option for this. When I use the Rigol probe, the signal looks the same as with the RTB2k probe.
Peter
With the 1:1 setting the compensation works but is not correct.
Hi Peter - talked with the R&D team on this. It sounds like they know about this and it has been fixed in the next release.Pedre, your screenshot shows an amplitude of 250 mV instead of the proper 2.5V. It looks like you have the probe switched to 10:1 but configured as a 1:1 in the RTB2000. That's probably the cause of the error.No, the oscilloscope does this by itself if you use the Probe Adjust App on channel 1. The compensation doesn't work with the Probe Adjust App and channel 1.
I have described it here:
http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rohde-schwarz-rtb2000/fehler-005.htm (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rohde-schwarz-rtb2000/fehler-005.htm)
You have an RTB2004, maybe you can confirm the error.
Peter
Hi Peter - talked with the R&D team on this. It sounds like they know about this and it has been fixed in the next release.
-Rich
Where is the best place to send errors and change requests?
I wrote the question to customersupport(at)rohde-schwarz.com but didn't get an answer.
Is there anything I can do to change the record length in FFT mode to be smaller?
Work FFT has become much less convenient.
There's currently a massive promotion in Germany, including the RTB2K4-COM4 for 3200EUR net: https://www.datatec.de/info/aktionen-angebote/ac00461-messpakete-zum-unschlagbaren-aktionspreis (https://www.datatec.de/info/aktionen-angebote/ac00461-messpakete-zum-unschlagbaren-aktionspreis)It's already leaked 8) I believe this is worldwide (China may be an exception - not 100% sure). And it's not just on the RTB2000. I'm super excited for it - similar to our launch edition (albeit slightly more expensive), but without a quantity limit this time. Like I said in the other thread - we've tried really hard to listen to customer feedback: projects change, you have money now, not sure if you'll be able to buy upgrades in the future, you want everything turned on for one price, etc. You can still buy any of the other models, but in a lot of cases, why would you? When you can get a loaded (all options, even MSO/Bandwidth) Scope, SpecAn or Power Supply/Analyzer for one low price. Is it for everyone? No, but hopefully you all will see it as a step in the right direction (and vote with your money ;) ).
It's slightly annoying that it's a year after I bought mine, but that's life. Hopefully more people decide to buy this great scope (or one of the other offered products)
There's currently a massive promotion in Germany, including the RTB2K4-COM4 for 3200EUR net: https://www.datatec.de/info/aktionen-angebote/ac00461-messpakete-zum-unschlagbaren-aktionspreis (https://www.datatec.de/info/aktionen-angebote/ac00461-messpakete-zum-unschlagbaren-aktionspreis)It's already leaked 8) I believe this is worldwide (China may be an exception - not 100% sure). And it's not just on the RTB2000. I'm super excited for it - similar to our launch edition (albeit slightly more expensive), but without a quantity limit this time. Like I said in the other thread - we've tried really hard to listen to customer feedback: projects change, you have money now, not sure if you'll be able to buy upgrades in the future, you want everything turned on for one price, etc. You can still buy any of the other models, but in a lot of cases, why would you? When you can get a loaded (all options, even MSO/Bandwidth) Scope, SpecAn or Power Supply/Analyzer for one low price. Is it for everyone? No, but hopefully you all will see it as a step in the right direction (and vote with your money ;) ).
-Rich
It is a promotion through December 31, 2019.There's currently a massive promotion in Germany, including the RTB2K4-COM4 for 3200EUR net: https://www.datatec.de/info/aktionen-angebote/ac00461-messpakete-zum-unschlagbaren-aktionspreis (https://www.datatec.de/info/aktionen-angebote/ac00461-messpakete-zum-unschlagbaren-aktionspreis)It's already leaked 8) I believe this is worldwide (China may be an exception - not 100% sure). And it's not just on the RTB2000. I'm super excited for it - similar to our launch edition (albeit slightly more expensive), but without a quantity limit this time. Like I said in the other thread - we've tried really hard to listen to customer feedback: projects change, you have money now, not sure if you'll be able to buy upgrades in the future, you want everything turned on for one price, etc. You can still buy any of the other models, but in a lot of cases, why would you? When you can get a loaded (all options, even MSO/Bandwidth) Scope, SpecAn or Power Supply/Analyzer for one low price. Is it for everyone? No, but hopefully you all will see it as a step in the right direction (and vote with your money ;) ).
-Rich
Will this be a permanent thing or just a limited time promotion?
It would be interesting to say the least if one of the major players abandoned the upgrade/options model system entirely.
When you can get a loaded (all options, even MSO/Bandwidth) Scope, SpecAn or Power Supply/Analyzer for one low price. Is it for everyone? No, but hopefully you all will see it as a step in the right direction (and vote with your money ;) ).While this surely is a step in the right direction, not everybody needs 1GHz, MSO and all the options and would favor a package in the medium price range. Like (also in the light of the newest Siglent offerings) something like an RTM3000 with 4 channels an all standard serial decoders in the 4k€-6k€ range.
When you can get a loaded (all options, even MSO/Bandwidth) Scope, SpecAn or Power Supply/Analyzer for one low price. Is it for everyone? No, but hopefully you all will see it as a step in the right direction (and vote with your money ;) ).While this surely is a step in the right direction, not everybody needs 1GHz, MSO and all the options and would favor a package in the medium price range. Like (also in the light of the newest Siglent offerings) something like an RTM3000 with 4 channels an all standard serial decoders in the 4k€-6k€ range.
Agreed. While the RTB promotion makes sense, there is a huge gap with the promo RTM (3200E>8600E) and with the promo RTA barely higher at 10500E, it could have made sense to have an offering in the 5-6kE range.
And all they proved is that 1GHz fully loaded one realistic price is 8600 €. Which is about right..Yeah, while this discount causes the 1GHz full featured version to enter a somewhat realistic price range (and even quite a bit below a full featured Rigol MSO7000 500MHz), limiting the discount to the top model with all features creates some really weird pricing issues. E.g. a used demonstration model of the RTM3104 without any options now costs about the same as a full featured brand new RTM3104 in R&S's own store. Also the 1GHz version without features is now much more expensive than the full featured version. So I guess that more or less all models above 200MHz will be impossible to sell until the discount is over.
Today I bought an MSO5000 but wanted to buy a RTB2004... :-\
All because this discount only happened in the the full-optioned versions.
I almost bought a RTB2004 but there are still bugs in it which made it unusable until fixed.
Unusable for the purpose I needed it for. The facts are the scope is here waiting to be collected. The segmented memory replay has bugs. The overlay function does not work. R&S have acknowledged it and are still working to fix it. Of course it works generally, but a paid for software feature that is critipcal to analyse the changes between individual segmented trigger captures simply fails.
Spending 3K+ on a tool that doesn't ( yet) do what it should is hardly being a drama queen. I'm sure they will fix it, but until then it's value to me is limited.
Clearly most actual owners haven't used the more in depth features, perhaps they just like the the decoding and touch screen whereas some of us need it to perform as it was intended.
Of course it works generally...Oh, so it usable then? A bit dramatic of you to make false statements about the scope in general because you found a bug in one area. Maybe that is why I called you a drama queen...
Clearly most actual owners haven't used the more in depth features, perhaps they just like the the decoding and touch screen whereas some of us need it to perform as it was intended.Clearly you must feel that insulting every other owner of this scope somehow makes you superior. Best of luck to you, and I hope you manage to find your perfect scope.
Clearly most actual owners haven't used the more in depth features, perhaps they just like the the decoding and touch screen whereas some of us need it to perform as it was intended.
Its not insulting. Its just realistic. Most people only use a small subset of the features of most instruments. That's all they need, and they have no incentive to find what other features are even present. Only when the instrument proves annoying do they try to find a new and more effective way to use it.Clearly most actual owners haven't used the more in depth features, perhaps they just like the the decoding and touch screen whereas some of us need it to perform as it was intended.
Yeah, no. Not only this is insulting, but also just plain wrong. Please don't make generalizing statements like this just because one feature you really need isn't working.
What specifically doesn't work? I'm curious as someone who has used segmented memory and playback for analysis. I'm not sure what you mean by overlay function. Are you referring to a saved waveform?PM you with link
R&S already ignore you if you're not a company, for no warranty and no support it would have to be half price or have all soft options.
That's not my experience at all.
Shoot me a PM and I'll get you an answer :-+That's not my experience at all.
I wouldn't say my experience has been that they ignore me. The US staff does respond, but then if the question has to be sent to Germany....then my question seems to enter a black hole and pretty much never returns with a response. For instance I have a new power supply from R&S. It is completely missing a feature that is clearly in the datasheet, and is one of the reason I purchased the device. The US team has responded a couple of times (they have no idea why the feature is missing), but R&S in Germany remains silent.
Rich here with R&S is obviously responsive and interacts with us. I haven't bothered him with my one question though since he seems to be a scope guy, and he would have to end up asking Germany as well.
Shoot me a PM and I'll get you an answer :-+
-Rich
Thanks for the kind words! I know interacting with a large company can be tough - hopefully I can smooth some of that for you all. And I know I won't be able to "fix" everything, but I'm happy to try to do what I can.Shoot me a PM and I'll get you an answer :-+
-Rich
Just want to say to all the R&S scope owners, that we are very lucky to have someone like Rich here. Some of us (myself included) would have preferred the current promotions were a bit more flexible. For myself at least, that is mainly because I would love a reasonable upgrade path from my RTB2004 to a RTM3004 (which would include selling the RTB to fund the RTM by necessity).
Regardless, not many vendors here have such a consistent presence. Lately, Brad from Keithley has been great, and Daniel from Keysight does pop up from time to time, but I see Rich here just about every single week responding to us. Even if that is only: "All PMs replied"...he is still here. Thanks Rich. You honestly didn't have do anything, but offering to take my concerns directly to the product manager in Munich for my new NGL is very generous of you, and I appreciate it.
I just ordered a rtm3004 with full option package. I could test the scope for a couple of weeks before ordering.
I was a big lecroy fan. I'm now happy with my new rtm4003.
Just a complain on subpar quality of the rotating button imho. That's really a pitty.
Hello fellow RTB2004 users,There is a bug I reported that if you have HF reject in an analog channel and then change to a digital one, this option remains active although you cannot disable it if you are triggering on a digital channel and this makes it impossible to trigger on a digital channel edge, since it's high frequency.
I'm not sure if my problem with this scope is a bug or user error, please help me to figure this out.
I can't get my scope (RTB2004 firmware v2.202) to trigger on logic channels only (it works fine if i analize a protocol, but this is just some simple digital signal).
For my current setup i only use the logic channels D0...D7 (no analog)
- D0 is connected to a low frequency (250Hz) 3.3V logic signal
- D1 is connected to a 500Hz logic signal
- The trigger is setup is set to Edge, rising edge, D1 (or D0 makes no difference), Threshold 1.4V, hold off is off
I am unable to get the scope to (normal) trigger on this signal.
When i lower the frequency of my signal to lets say 1hz i see the arrows (next to D7-0 channel indicator at the bottom of the screen) for channel 0 and 1 change with my signal, so it is being read, but no trigger event occurs.
I can get a display when i force trigger or in 'auto' mode but not in normal mode...
Can someone tell me what i do wrong or can somebody reproduce this problem.
Triggering on an analog input on the same signal works fine, also using only the digital inputs to read spi or I2C and triggering on it works fine (using protocol analyzer), but this 'simple' setup does not work (for me).
Please help me solve this.
With kind regards,
Dexter23
Hi,Hi - please send me a PM and I'll give you the instructions.
How can I get the upgrades for RTB2004?
Hi Folks - all PMs replied.
Please also note - there is a time-limit on the free K36 upgrade for units with PK1 or the original launch editions. The time limit is through July 31, 2019. After that, we'll no longer upgrade it for free.
-Rich
Please also note - there is a time-limit on the free K36 upgrade for units with PK1 or the original launch editions. The time limit is through July 31, 2019. After that, we'll no longer upgrade it for free.
Hi Mahi - sorry for the slow reply. K36 is part of the current COM models (where available - the RTH doesn’t have it), as well as current PK1 purchases since K36 was introduced. My comment in red is just for people that bought a launch edition, COM model or PK1 before K36 was introduced. We wanted to give a free upgrade to those people.Please also note - there is a time-limit on the free K36 upgrade for units with PK1 or the original launch editions. The time limit is through July 31, 2019. After that, we'll no longer upgrade it for free.
Does this also apply to the current COM bundle promotions, like the RTB2K-COM4? Or does apply only to older units that were purchased with COM2/COM4/PK1 before K36 was released?
If I purchase the RTB2K-COM4 after July 31 (the promotion runs until the end of the year), is K36 still included?
I'm figuring that GbE is a bit of an edge case at the moment so it's possible it's not as well shaken through in the firmware rather than being a hardware problem - has anyone else experienced any issues with it?
I agree. It is probably a bad cable and the consumer level D-link equipment isn't the best network equipment out there. Also note that the RTB2000 can't fill the Gbit ethernet bandwidth at all. 100Mbit is more than enough. Early on in this thread some people did some benchmark testing.
That would be great, someone was doubting if the com2 would also have the bode plot ability, can someone with a com2 confirm that it has this option ?Yes, the COM2 can handle K36 as well. But with the current promotion you're better off ordering the COM4 - it's cheaper and you'll get the 4-channels.
Someone asked about this on email, the RTC1002 is on sale:Just saw this model today and I am quite interested, but I haven't found any good reviews yet. Looks like an update to the HMO1202 Dave reviewed a few years back. If anybody found a good teardown, please post.
300MHz, mixed signal with function gen for $1500
https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTC1K-COM2/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTC1K-COM2/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/)
Didnt' know about this model, looks like a replacement for the Hameg.
Value for money in that 300MHz space?
@Rich (+anyone else that's interested),Hi Dave - I'll ping the team, but I think it is unlikely on the RTB2000. I'll let you know ASAP.
Is there any chance of getting the UART decode maximum baudrate increased? It's really the only significant limitation I've bumped into so far in comparison to my MSO4024 daily driver. 3MBaud is a little but low - even protocols like BT HCI H4 run at 4MBaud. Your 'competition' seem to have max limits of 10MBaud...any improvement on the 3 would be handy, and more the better, but if you can get to 12MBaud that's a pretty significant waypoint because it's the max speed of a FTDI USB async adaptor.
I know I'm asking a lot, and the constraint may well be set in hardware, but I figure there's nothing to be lost by asking...even if the higher baudrates have reduced functionality.
Regards
DAVE
@Rich (+anyone else that's interested),As I was afraid, it's a limitation in the FPGA. We can set up higher baud rates, but only in rough steps that would be unusual and likely not helpful. Sorry I don't have better news.
Is there any chance of getting the UART decode maximum baudrate increased? It's really the only significant limitation I've bumped into so far in comparison to my MSO4024 daily driver. 3MBaud is a little but low - even protocols like BT HCI H4 run at 4MBaud. Your 'competition' seem to have max limits of 10MBaud...any improvement on the 3 would be handy, and more the better, but if you can get to 12MBaud that's a pretty significant waypoint because it's the max speed of a FTDI USB async adaptor.
I know I'm asking a lot, and the constraint may well be set in hardware, but I figure there's nothing to be lost by asking...even if the higher baudrates have reduced functionality.
Regards
DAVE
I received yesterday my new RTC1K-COM2 package. I will post a review in a new thread next week. Is there a specific test you guys would be interested in? So far it seems identical to the HMO1202 Dave tore down in EEVBLOG #842. (Minus 50ohm input, sadly)
Price was $1536 for 300MHz bandwidth, 2 analog + 8 digital channels with logic probe and all serial decoders. This is about 1/3 the price of the equivalent Keysight (MSOX2022A) and in the same ballpark as the Rigol MSO2302A and Siglent SDS2352X-E similarly configured.
It is TINY and the UI is fantastic, so far I am happy.
Does it still have the practically silent fan?
My Hameg was so silent I had no idea is had a fan until I tore it apart.
@DIPLover, is this a RTB2002/4? I have a RTB2004 and the fan is very loud.
@DIPLover, is this a RTB2002/4? I have a RTB2004 and the fan is very loud.
Is there anything I can do to change the record length in FFT mode to be smaller? Here's why:I have just run into this myself, previously had been using large FFT spans (where the update rate is fine) but now I'm trying to measure a changing signal with <10kHz spans and it is _extremely_ annoying and difficult to use in an interactive fashion due to the long acquisition time even when using a modest number of samples.
I often use the FFT function (love the new improvements) with relatively low frequency spans < 100kHz (think audio frequencies), and then the fixed record size quickly becomes annoying.
For example, looking at a 24kHz span with a 10Hz resolution bandwidth, the resulting window size is only 2400 points, which at the proper Nyquist rate of 48kHz (which the scope chooses) takes 100ms to capture. (The scope actually chooses a different width depending on the chosen windowing function, e.g. 89.04ms for a rectangular window, but I suspect the effective RBW depends on that function.)
However, the fixed record size of 131kSamples (2^17) is much larger than that, taking around 2.7 seconds to fill up at 48kHz. If I choose a lower span or a better RBW, it can get into tens of seconds per update.
In the screenshot, you can see that the window is pretty small in comparison to the record. The good thing is that I can stop the acquisition and move the window around those 2.7s to look at the spectrum at different times, or change the RBW without recapturing, but most of the time I'd rather have the quickest update rate possible, especially for fast-changing signals.
Interestingly, it seems that the scope would do the right thing in Roll mode, but then it does not display the FFT at all anymore (I suspect because there is no actual trigger).
I'll pass this on.Is there anything I can do to change the record length in FFT mode to be smaller? Here's why:I have just run into this myself, previously had been using large FFT spans (where the update rate is fine) but now I'm trying to measure a changing signal with <10kHz spans and it is _extremely_ annoying and difficult to use in an interactive fashion due to the long acquisition time even when using a modest number of samples.
I often use the FFT function (love the new improvements) with relatively low frequency spans < 100kHz (think audio frequencies), and then the fixed record size quickly becomes annoying.
For example, looking at a 24kHz span with a 10Hz resolution bandwidth, the resulting window size is only 2400 points, which at the proper Nyquist rate of 48kHz (which the scope chooses) takes 100ms to capture. (The scope actually chooses a different width depending on the chosen windowing function, e.g. 89.04ms for a rectangular window, but I suspect the effective RBW depends on that function.)
However, the fixed record size of 131kSamples (2^17) is much larger than that, taking around 2.7 seconds to fill up at 48kHz. If I choose a lower span or a better RBW, it can get into tens of seconds per update.
In the screenshot, you can see that the window is pretty small in comparison to the record. The good thing is that I can stop the acquisition and move the window around those 2.7s to look at the spectrum at different times, or change the RBW without recapturing, but most of the time I'd rather have the quickest update rate possible, especially for fast-changing signals.
Interestingly, it seems that the scope would do the right thing in Roll mode, but then it does not display the FFT at all anymore (I suspect because there is no actual trigger).
Rich - if you could pass on this issue (maybe with the suggestion to allow the user to toggle full/limited record sizes) then that would be much appreciated - it's bad enough that I'm stuck using other instruments for this job, where I'd like to be using the (otherwise great) FFT function!
Is there anything I can do to change the record length in FFT mode to be smaller? Here's why:
I often use the FFT function (love the new improvements) with relatively low frequency spans < 100kHz (think audio frequencies), and then the fixed record size quickly becomes annoying.
For example, looking at a 24kHz span with a 10Hz resolution bandwidth, the resulting window size is only 2400 points, which at the proper Nyquist rate of 48kHz (which the scope chooses) takes 100ms to capture. (The scope actually chooses a different width depending on the chosen windowing function, e.g. 89.04ms for a rectangular window, but I suspect the effective RBW depends on that function.)
However, the fixed record size of 131kSamples (2^17) is much larger than that, taking around 2.7 seconds to fill up at 48kHz. If I choose a lower span or a better RBW, it can get into tens of seconds per update.
In the screenshot, you can see that the window is pretty small in comparison to the record. The good thing is that I can stop the acquisition and move the window around those 2.7s to look at the spectrum at different times, or change the RBW without recapturing, but most of the time I'd rather have the quickest update rate possible, especially for fast-changing signals.
Interestingly, it seems that the scope would do the right thing in Roll mode, but then it does not display the FFT at all anymore (I suspect because there is no actual trigger).
Just checking if this is intended behaviour - I can save a waveform file, but there seems to be no option to re-load it. (RTM3004)IIRC you should be able to load it into a reference memory trace. But it may depend on the format in which the waveform is saved.
No - that only allows loading CSV files. Also probably not useful if you want to look at decodes on a stored traceJust checking if this is intended behaviour - I can save a waveform file, but there seems to be no option to re-load it. (RTM3004)IIRC you should be able to load it into a reference memory trace. But it may depend on the format in which the waveform is saved.
Well, if you save as CSV then you should be able to load it. But that does limit the possibilities. Decoding a stored trace is a rare feature -if it even exists- on an oscilloscope. On the RTM3004 the reference traces are decimated versions of the original trace anyway and I guess the same is true for the RTB2004; it would be difficult to deal with references traces at the full memory depth.No - that only allows loading CSV files. Also probably not useful if you want to look at decodes on a stored traceJust checking if this is intended behaviour - I can save a waveform file, but there seems to be no option to re-load it. (RTM3004)IIRC you should be able to load it into a reference memory trace. But it may depend on the format in which the waveform is saved.
Decoding a stored trace is a rare feature -if it even exists- on an oscilloscope.What do you mean ? That is a normal thing for Picoscope. That was one of few main reasons for me to get it.
Bode: Would it be possible to continue sub-dividing horizontally when zooming in? Right now you don't get a horizontal grid when you are between the Decade ticks(ex. 1.0-1.1kHz).I second this suggestion!
I would like to maybe set the number of points between start and stop frequencies, just because sometimes 500 points per decade isn't enough when you are only interested in small spans. The over-engineered solution could be to use something similar to amplitude profile, but for points per decade, allowing you to have a lot of points only in the areas of interest (this would be awesome).
@Rich, would it be possible to have more than 500pt/dec for the bode plot mode? I'm measuring ultrasonic oscillators and sometimes even 500pt/dec isn't enough.Hi KaneTW - sorry I've been so slow to respond - it's been a crazy few weeks! I'll submit the request. :-+
OTOH you have to think about the reality of needing UARTs at >3Mbit. A UART is usually clocked at 16x the bitrate so at 3Mbit this would be 48MHz. Also from my tests on the RTM3004 it turned out the protocol decoders in general work up to much higher speeds than specified. I wouldn't get so worked up about a limit you probably never run into.I regularly use 4 and 6Mbaud. The decoder max baudrate is a hard limit-you can't enter a higher value.
how do you rate the sigrok / PulseView integration?
I actually think R&S should spend some engineer hours contributing comprehensive drivers to sigrok, and making any firmware changes to make it all rock solid - that would really make these killer scopes.
Is there honestly any other company that has personally contributed to this open source project? Why would R&S spend the money and resources themselves, when they can devote it to projects that do make them money?
But having bitrates over 3Mbaud still is rare in general. But you are right that the upper limit is hard coded. I forgot that you need to set the baudrate for UART decoding.OTOH you have to think about the reality of needing UARTs at >3Mbit. A UART is usually clocked at 16x the bitrate so at 3Mbit this would be 48MHz. Also from my tests on the RTM3004 it turned out the protocol decoders in general work up to much higher speeds than specified. I wouldn't get so worked up about a limit you probably never run into.I regularly use 4 and 6Mbaud. The decoder max baudrate is a hard limit-you can't enter a higher value.
But having bitrates over 3Mbaud still is rare in general. But you are right that the upper limit is hard coded. I forgot that you need to set the baudrate for UART decoding.If you look at external interfaces its rare for a UART to run at anything like 3Mbps. However, if you look at device to device interfaces within boards you'll often find people cranking UARTs to the maximum they can get. Quite a few engineers looking at new devices show serious interest in how far the UARTs can be cranked.
IMHO using an SPI port would be a much better solution for such a purpose. Often these have buffers and support 16 or even 32 bit words so less overhead for transmitting / receiving. Also the send / receive bitrates wouldn't have to be a very close match.But having bitrates over 3Mbaud still is rare in general. But you are right that the upper limit is hard coded. I forgot that you need to set the baudrate for UART decoding.If you look at external interfaces its rare for a UART to run at anything like 3Mbps. However, if you look at device to device interfaces within boards you'll often find people cranking UARTs to the maximum they can get. Quite a few engineers looking at new devices show serious interest in how far the UARTs can be cranked.
We’ve all seen vendor-created companion software tools that are janky, Windows-only abandonware. I think R&S would do better than average if they rolled something themselves but I suspect it still wouldn’t be as good as leveraging the existing work (including great protocol decoders) in sigrok and PulseView. Internal engineers would have a major advantage to someone working on it from outside, as they have much better knowledge of the instrument’s communication protocol, and could even adjust the firmware if necessary to make it as good as it could be.
Would it make them money? I admit, its hard to say for sure. Does fixing bugs and adding firmware features for people after they’ve purchased their scope make the company money? I think verified, comprehensive sigrok / PulseView integration would ameliorate a weakness in the product and would increase its value to potential buyers.
Rs485 can easily do 10Mbaud. Another reason for fast uart rates is when sending realtime debug data outBut having bitrates over 3Mbaud still is rare in general. But you are right that the upper limit is hard coded. I forgot that you need to set the baudrate for UART decoding.If you look at external interfaces its rare for a UART to run at anything like 3Mbps. However, if you look at device to device interfaces within boards you'll often find people cranking UARTs to the maximum they can get. Quite a few engineers looking at new devices show serious interest in how far the UARTs can be cranked.r
Timebase
- RTB2K uses 1-2-5 scheme, which is standard. But below 200ns, it switches between 10ns, 20ns, 40ns 80 ns & 200ns. I can’t find the explanation
Timebase
- RTB2K uses 1-2-5 scheme, which is standard. But below 200ns, it switches between 10ns, 20ns, 40ns 80 ns & 200ns. I can’t find the explanation
I believe this came up in the thread earlier, but I can't remember the exact reason.
It took seven weeks of badgering before I managed to get my first response from the Australian distributor. They gave me a price and I sent back a couple of questions that day. That was a week ago now and it’s been radio silence again. It’s like pulling teeth with these guys. |O
It seems like the only other option for paying Australian dollarydoos for one of these is to pay the outrageous price element 14 wants for one: https://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-bundle-rtb2004-b243-b1-pk1/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153 (https://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-bundle-rtb2004-b243-b1-pk1/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153)
Have you tried the Australian R&S direct sales?
Can you please PM me the distributor and I'll see if I can light a fire under them via Munich. Sorry for the trouble.Have you tried the Australian R&S direct sales?
Thanks Kean but yes, I started this process talking to them in person at Electronex. They want to pass me off to the distributor, who don't seem to want to have anything to do with me.
The RTB2K-COM4: $3,700.00 almost attainable price apparently vaporized at the end of October.
Correct. We're notifying Tequipment (not sure what happened). The promo runs through the end of December. No change.The RTB2K-COM4: $3,700.00 almost attainable price apparently vaporized at the end of October.
That's probably an error at Tequipment; Newark and TestEquity both have the correct price, and R&S's website still says $3700 through 31 December.
Hi RichNot that I'm aware of. Were you able to jump on the pk1 bundle promo here recently? Not sure when/if that will come back, but I'll pass on your suggestion.
Any chance the offers also extend to upgrades to existing scopes in the EU?
Thanks :)
Hi Rich!I'll check. Anything in particular you want me to check on?
It's almost been a year since the last firmware update. Is any update expected this year?
I'll check. Anything in particular you want me to check on?Hi Rich,
-Rich
Hi all,
- new Trigger types: Runt, Rise time, Edge A/B
(here I contacted already R+S Munich and I have got a feedback: reserved for RTB3000...
sorry, but all other 400,-€ scopes can do this...)
I'll take the opportunity to plug a request again,Thanks. I'll make sure Munich hears this again.
An event A followed by an event B trigger, channel and pattern. Maybe the same or related to the edge A/B request below.
Thanks Rich,
JoelHi all,
- new Trigger types: Runt, Rise time, Edge A/B
(here I contacted already R+S Munich and I have got a feedback: reserved for RTB3000...
sorry, but all other 400,-€ scopes can do this...)
Hi all,Hi Kittel99 - the bugs you mentioned will be fixed in the upcoming release.
I am new in this blog and a user of RTB2004 since march and I am also waiting for an update:
For solving few bugs:
- Zoom window is wrong if Menu box is open on right side
- Zoom window is wrong if Display track grid is active
- Pattern Aribitrary: Save and Load again: Nothing will work anymore, only Off/On helps
- Pattern generator: Arbitray Value is not available for Ouick Access (with <<<), (Index works)
And maybe we will get some new features:
- Quick measurement : with Duty
- Search: also for protokoll UArt and SPI
- new Trigger types: Runt, Rise time, Edge A/B
(here I contacted already R+S Munich and I have got a feedback: reserved for RTB3000...
sorry, but all other 400,-€ scopes can do this...)
@Rich: thank you for your support - I am a follower of this blog since several months!
...and in summary: I like working with this scope very much - big touchscreen, low noise, on board function generator, protocol results, ...
Best regards Kittel99
And just an update on the next RTB2000 firmware. No firm date, but one is in progress. As I get more details I'll post them up.
-Rich
"rather low cost" .. looks like ~$3000 to me.
Anyone know what price range we are talking about here?
Beat me to it. Thanks.I wanted to ask 100 times about this: what happened with the offset range? Nowhere can I move the zero off the screen, or +/- five divisions from the center. Specifications promise up to +/- 40 Volts above 200mV/div or +/-1,2 Volts below 200mV/div.from manual v9 page 39:
4.3.1 Vertical Controls
[Offset/Position (upper knob)]
The upper vertical knob adjusts the following, depending on the selected waveform:
● Offset or position of an analog channel (adjustable: main menu > "Vertical"). The
visual effect is the same. While the offset sets a voltage, position is a graphical set-
ting given in divisions.
You can change between Position and Offset, see Menu "Vertical", picture is on page 42.
Peter
Great news! Thanks friends. Please explain the meaning of this separation of functions (offset / position). By the way, RTA has a significantly larger adjustment range. :)The offset probably remains constant when changing v/div so the position will change accordingly where the position should remain constant even when changing v/div. Likely this is a user preference. In a Yokogawa oscilloscope I used to own the offset and position controls where combined into one DAC output to drive the offset in the analog front-end.
Great news! Thanks friends. Please explain the meaning of this separation of functions (offset / position). By the way, RTA has a significantly larger adjustment range. :)Position is like the name describes - it is basically the position on the screen and is adjusted in divisions. Offset actually adds a voltage to "offset" where the signal is positioned on the screen. It's useful to measure small AC voltages that are riding on a larger DC voltage.
I just gifted my older Tek 2246 scope... to my 18yo nephew.Lucky nephew! The 2246 is a nice scope.
So, it is time for me to modernize my test bench.
I'm looking at the RTB2004... but confused at some of the options and prices.
~$3k, is my goal.
I'm not a EE, just a self-taught home hobbyist who builds:
Analog audio gear,
Eurorack synth music modules,
Linear PSUs (measuring ripple and noise).
Measuring active and passive filters in the audio realm,
Building voltage references as a challenge,
Rehabilitating classic test and music gear.
(this would include testing for opamp oscillation and also testing for room resonances using a calibration microphone)
I also have additional funds for a 3-channel modern PSU, and a new Signal generator.
I'm a little disappointed because I applied for 2 on-line quotes on the R&S site two weeks ago, and have not heard back (I checked spam folder too).
Calling the USA phone#, four hours later I got a call back to then was told to then call a regional rep (los Angeles)...left a message, and so far no call-back. (Phil Luken).
I don't want to add extras and software I don't need, but at the same time I would like to grow into a scope, so some options could be included at the time of purchase if my budget allows it, or see if there is a bundling option..
.....plus probes and cabling.
Dear Rich.I've talked with Munich. Unfortunately, the next revision of firmware (and honestly, it sounds like all future revisions) won't change the FFT behavior for low frequencies. Having said that, you can send an email to customer support and ask them to provide FW: V02.101 for the RTB2000
Please ask in Munich when the new software arrives. For more than a year now I have not been able to use FFT for low frequencies. :horse:
Is there any way to get back to the old version?
Thanks.
It's kind of a stupid workaround but I just transfer the data to my PC and DSP/FFT it from there.
Rich, is harm from frequent firmware changes is possible?No harm :-+
Dear Rich.I've talked with Munich. Unfortunately, the next revision of firmware (and honestly, it sounds like all future revisions) won't change the FFT behavior for low frequencies. Having said that, you can send an email to customer support and ask them to provide FW: V02.101 for the RTB2000
Please ask in Munich when the new software arrives. For more than a year now I have not been able to use FFT for low frequencies. :horse:
Is there any way to get back to the old version?
Thanks.
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/au/service-support/service-sales-locator/service-sales-locator_58697.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/au/service-support/service-sales-locator/service-sales-locator_58697.html)
This is a fairly old FW, so there will be bugs that have since been fixed, but the FFT won't slow down significantly when working in low frequencies.
And since I'm sure I'll get asked "why", I didn't get a lot of details but it sounds like there are some limitations in finding a sweet spot for the FFT and the team has decided to optimize for other areas outside of low frequency. I know this isn't ideal for some of you :(, but hopefully the ability to use older FW will help.
-Rich
I find this news quite disappointing, actually. I have postponed my amplifier project for a year now, awaiting a usable FFT on the scope for audio frequencies. Not to worry, I have multiple other projects on the side, so I'm not totally out of projects to work on in the mean time.
For audio, have you looked into using your PC sound card and software?
Is there a new version of FW for the RTB2004 coming out anytime soon? The last release was more than a year ago.
What's about to share your buglist here?Is there a new version of FW for the RTB2004 coming out anytime soon? The last release was more than a year ago.
I hope too.
The actual version have some bugs around the logik protocol analyzer, signal generator, ...
I sent a bug report to R&S last year.
... it sounds like all future revisions) won't change the FFT behavior for low frequencies.
.
.
And since I'm sure I'll get asked "why", I didn't get a lot of details but it sounds like there are some limitations in finding a sweet spot for the FFT and the team has decided to optimize for other areas outside of low frequency.
-Rich
The problem is really that the FFT function is insisting on filling its 128k FFT points, even if that takes a very long time and the actual FFT window size is much much smaller than that.Thanks for the good explanation - much better than my attempt a few pages back.
The benefit is that you can change window side and position after capture, which is normally nice, but not worth the downside in low-freq applications.
It would be very nice if instead you could simply force the capture size to be the much smaller window size. But I have a suspicion that the reason this is not changed, is that that could require a larger-than-tiny change of the FPGA logic, rather than just a software change.
Is there any chance of making r&s instrument view useful? I can't even connect over USB, only Ethernet. Is this in active development or just maintenance?I'm embarrassed to admit I haven't even used it :-\ Is there something specific you're looking for? If so, feel free to PM me and I'll talk with Munich about it.
In the attached screenshots the master is sending the word 0x01000040 but the scope is decoding the data as 0x30000161. It seems like the decoder is latching MOSI on the falling edge of SCLK, however if I configure the decoder for falling edge I get a different result (0x03010141). Am I just missing something here?
Thanks
Hi, have you tried with rising slope on your clock source?
The protocol decoder is using decimated data. What is your clock rate? You are running the SPI at around 60MHz if I'm not mistaken which is over the maximum SPI clock rate.
I have managed to push the RTM3004 to 62.5MHz during my testing but the official limit is 25MHz. I assume the RTB2004 has similar limits.The protocol decoder is using decimated data. What is your clock rate? You are running the SPI at around 60MHz if I'm not mistaken which is over the maximum SPI clock rate.
You're correct, the SPI clock is close to 70 MHz. Do you happen to know the sampling rate or maximum supported clock rate? The only bus speed limitations I could find in the user manual pertained to the UART decoder (3 Mbps.)
Thanks!
So after upgrading to the latest firmware version I thought I would run the Self Alignment routine.
It failed with this message:
Channel: 1
Alignment not possible.
ERROR-ID: 201-59.1.23014
I followed the instruction to the letter.
I then retried but with a terminator on Channel 1 input and then the Self Alignment passed.
Do I have a problem?
Thanks
Jep, the latest 2.202 FW is installed.I'll see what I can find out!
As it was new, id had an older FW and I could perform a self alignment without errors.
Regards
On my RTB2004, I'm moving the screen left / right using the Horizontal Position knob and the waveforms are moving up and down.Hi Harjit - running a self alignment should help.
Please find attached four pictures that were taken in sequence with the Horizontal Position knob rotated one click between them.
If you are running on Windows, put the four pictures in the same folder, open one with Photo Viewer and then use the left / right arrow to move between the pictures and you can easily seem them moving up / down. The Orange waveform is the easiest to see the effect on because it is on top of a grid line.
This makes measurements difficult.
Not to my knowledge. R&S running promotions for most of the time made it not particularly interesting to develop a hack.
Not to my knowledge. R&S running promotions for most of the time made it not particularly interesting to develop a hack.
It's unfortunate that no hack exists but I'm not regretting my RTB-COM4 purchase, except maybe that I should've gotten a RTM.
It also doesn't use linux
It also doesn't use linux
Oh, wow, what does it use?
Another logic analyzer-related annoyance - very short pulses have a tendency to disappear and reappear from view when scrubbing the horizontal axis. Any state changes should be a minimum of 1 pixel width regardless of zoom level, otherwise it's very easy to miss important events. I attached an animated gif showing the issue with pulses on D2 and D3 as I adjust the horizontal position.What happens if you set the acquisition mode to peak-detect?
Peak detect shouldn't have influence on digital channels..Another logic analyzer-related annoyance - very short pulses have a tendency to disappear and reappear from view when scrubbing the horizontal axis. Any state changes should be a minimum of 1 pixel width regardless of zoom level, otherwise it's very easy to miss important events. I attached an animated gif showing the issue with pulses on D2 and D3 as I adjust the horizontal position.What happens if you set the acquisition mode to peak-detect?
Why not? I can't test it right now but I'd say a proper MSO implementation also has peak detect on the digital channels. After all peak-detect records the extremes within one sample interval and there is no reason why this can't apply to digital channels.Peak detect shouldn't have influence on digital channels..Another logic analyzer-related annoyance - very short pulses have a tendency to disappear and reappear from view when scrubbing the horizontal axis. Any state changes should be a minimum of 1 pixel width regardless of zoom level, otherwise it's very easy to miss important events. I attached an animated gif showing the issue with pulses on D2 and D3 as I adjust the horizontal position.What happens if you set the acquisition mode to peak-detect?
I'm not saying it can't be made or that it is a bad idea. I'm just saying that peak detect setting in acquisition mode seems to be analog only related. If you check on your RTM3000 that would be very interesting information...Why not? I can't test it right now but I'd say a proper MSO implementation also has peak detect on the digital channels. After all peak-detect records the extremes within one sample interval and there is no reason why this can't apply to digital channels.Peak detect shouldn't have influence on digital channels..Another logic analyzer-related annoyance - very short pulses have a tendency to disappear and reappear from view when scrubbing the horizontal axis. Any state changes should be a minimum of 1 pixel width regardless of zoom level, otherwise it's very easy to miss important events. I attached an animated gif showing the issue with pulses on D2 and D3 as I adjust the horizontal position.What happens if you set the acquisition mode to peak-detect?
The pulses I'm looking at are roughly 100ns in duration, so while short in comparison to my buffer length (20MS) they are still long compared to my acquisition rate (62.5Msps, 16ns sample period). As a result the pulses are always detected and present in acquisition memory regardless of the selected acquisition mode. They're just not always visible in the traces when zoomed out.There is something odd with the waveform rendering, your example gif had similar short transients coming and going from the analog trace too. An effective anti-aliasing method shouldn't do that.
I wanted to respond to confirm that not only does peak-detect mode affect how the digital channels are acquired, it affects how the current contents of the digital channels in acquisition memory are displayed.
Seems reasonable - normal mode samples on each time interval and shows either high or low, peak mode samples at the highest rate and shows high, low, or a mixture of bothI wanted to respond to confirm that not only does peak-detect mode affect how the digital channels are acquired, it affects how the current contents of the digital channels in acquisition memory are displayed.
I'm amazed that peak detect would have any effect on the digital channels.
Indeed! R&S just followed the definition of peak-detect for displaying 'digital' signals too and that isn't wrong. From a functional point of view a digital channel is sampled using 2 discrete states instead of 1024 (or more/less depending on the ADC) but it still is a signal.Seems reasonable - normal mode samples on each time interval and shows either high or low, peak mode samples at the highest rate and shows high, low, or a mixture of bothI wanted to respond to confirm that not only does peak-detect mode affect how the digital channels are acquired, it affects how the current contents of the digital channels in acquisition memory are displayed.I'm amazed that peak detect would have any effect on the digital channels.
I'll take the opportunity to plug a request again,Thanks. I'll make sure Munich hears this again.
An event A followed by an event B trigger, channel and pattern. Maybe the same or related to the edge A/B request below.
Thanks Rich,
JoelHi all,
- new Trigger types: Runt, Rise time, Edge A/B
(here I contacted already R+S Munich and I have got a feedback: reserved for RTB3000...
sorry, but all other 400,-€ scopes can do this...)
And just an update on the next RTB2000 firmware. No firm date, but one is in progress. As I get more details I'll post them up.
-Rich
Yesterday I asked in Munich for a new firmware release date for RTB2004 and today I got a fast response from the customer support center:
It was planned to give a new release in 2. quarter, but due to pandemic it is shifted now to autumn.
Best regards
I cannot establish a network connection to IP port 5025. With Telnet (Windows 7) I cannot establish a connection. With a self-written program I can create a network connection, but no data is received when sending e.g. *IDN?
The LXI connection over the network works without problems. Changing the port does not help, even rebooting the oscilloscope does not help.
Can anyone receive data from port 5025?
I have used my network setting with manual IP address again. Only gateway and DNS I set to 127.0.0.1.
After a reboot the connection works, for whatever reason. The termination character is LF (\x0A), is received and sent by the RTB2000.
Thanks for the reply - sounds like the exact same issue as I have, even down to certain portions of each relay range working (It looks like the high-gain pre-amp setting is used for 1-5mV/div and then 200mV/div, with low-gain used everywhere else).Hi Hydron - I talked with the R&D team this morning and it sounds like there is for sure a hardware issue (there were also some changes around SW in newer revisions, but nothing that would cause what you're seeing). I'll PM you to see if I can help on the warranty side.
I didn't spend as long diagnosing the initial offset as you did - I was in the middle of an urgent debug task and wanted it fixed ASAP so I reached for self alignment/factory reset/secure erase before investigating fully (wish I'd played around a bit more, or even dumped the flash as described in a different topic). Note that I didn't have anything dangerous connected to the input of the problem channel - just a AM503 current probe "amplifier" which can only output a few hundred millivolts max.
As for warranty, I might be a bit stuck there, as noted I'm just _outside_ 3 years, and returning to the vendor would be an extremely slow and expensive process given they're in a different country.
I'll still see if I can get some local support, but it might be a job for the hot air gun and some crossed fingers (this also assumes the stupid all-channel-offset firmware bug will be resolved once the VGA is in-spec). Not blaming R&S for the VGA semi-failing (it's marketed for the exact use seen here and used by many manufacturers) but the way the self alignment dealt with it is crazy.
Edit: Are the black bits on the knobs a DIY addition btw? Don't match mine which are all grey.
Greetings All,
Just thought I'd share my recent service experience with Rohde & Schwarz when my RTB2004 suddenly died earlier this month. [...]
They arranged for prepaid FedEx shipping to their Maryland shop and total turnaround time was about 2 weeks. [...]
I don't think I ever probed anything dangerous with the channel that failed either, the offset was just there on boot-up one day. It's very interesting that older firmware can bypass the issue and restore full control, I figured it was an inescapable hardware fault. I never thought to look into the self alignment log, I wish I had done that. It always helps to have another data point.
I'd also expect fixing the bad channel to fix the all-offset problem. My guess is the self-alignment routine never expected to see an offset it couldn't get rid of and so as an unintended consequence it puts an offset on all the channels to get them to match each other.
Yes, I added the black tape to the knobs. The tape has a rough grippy texture and so I don't have to apply so much finger pressure when turning the knobs. The smooth surface of the knobs combined with the turning resistance and detents gets a little fatiguing after a while. I liked the difference enough that I reapplied it to the replacement scope.
I don't think I ever probed anything dangerous with the channel that failed either, the offset was just there on boot-up one day. It's very interesting that older firmware can bypass the issue and restore full control, I figured it was an inescapable hardware fault. I never thought to look into the self alignment log, I wish I had done that. It always helps to have another data point.
I'd also expect fixing the bad channel to fix the all-offset problem. My guess is the self-alignment routine never expected to see an offset it couldn't get rid of and so as an unintended consequence it puts an offset on all the channels to get them to match each other.
Yes, I added the black tape to the knobs. The tape has a rough grippy texture and so I don't have to apply so much finger pressure when turning the knobs. The smooth surface of the knobs combined with the turning resistance and detents gets a little fatiguing after a while. I liked the difference enough that I reapplied it to the replacement scope.
You know what? I had the same kind of response. I had a probe that went intermittent, R&S said no problem you don't have to send it back we'll take care of it. Never happened! Called back a couple of months later and got someone else, said who told you that? Never gave me an RMA, nothing. OK, it's just a probe but if I had a major problem I would have been more aggressive. Got better treatment from Tek, see who gets my next scope order (better probes too - a lot better!).
Huh, certainly sounds like you got some bad luck (or a bad batch). Haven't had an issue with any of mine other than one of the spring clips (witch's hats) being a bit sticky at first.
The RTB2k probes are made by "Hong Kong Texas" (http://www.hktexas.hk/en/index.html (http://www.hktexas.hk/en/index.html)), a few other manufacturers use them too for their low-mid range probe offerings. I suspect the higher end R&S ones are from PMK (https://www.pmk.de/en/products (https://www.pmk.de/en/products)).
As for my offset issue, am waiting on R&S to see what they can do, but am almost completely certain it's the LMH6518, which thankfully is a $10 part and should be relatively easy to replace - if I end up needing to do so I'll post pics and results here.
There's a new firmware update, 2.300.
Maximum channel probe attenuation user factor expands to 10M for unit 'V'.There has to be a story behind why that got added....
They have some new bundles launching soon but they still only have the base bandwidth.
They have some new bundles launching soon but they still only have the base bandwidth.
Yeah I saw that and this is what I considered buying... if there was a way to also get the highest bandwidth.
Otherwise I'll go with Siglent :-//
R&S is welcome to send me a PM should they want to help me find a solution.
They have some new bundles launching soon but they still only have the base bandwidth.
Yeah I saw that and this is what I considered buying... if there was a way to also get the highest bandwidth.
Otherwise I'll go with Siglent :-//
R&S is welcome to send me a PM should they want to help me find a solution.
They have some new bundles launching soon but they still only have the base bandwidth.
Yeah I saw that and this is what I considered buying... if there was a way to also get the highest bandwidth.
Otherwise I'll go with Siglent :-//
R&S is welcome to send me a PM should they want to help me find a solution.
Its still not at price parity, but TEquipment (and I think other places) have educational pricing for the RTB2004. The full package is discounted to ~ $3.2k. https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/)
Still not the best deal for a scope if you only look at the bandwidth per dollar, but I found the edu discount compelling enough to buy the scope and I have been very happy with it.
Does anyone know an app for Win 10, which allows me to create arbitrary curves (csv file) for the RTB2000 ?
It would also be good if I could modify csv curves stored in RTB2000.
Rich, I have these thoughts:I think this has been raised before; it's not important for me personally but given the control layout and RGB channel indicator LEDs it might be possible to do it in a very elegant way (albeit maybe with a control panel FW upgrade in addition to the mainboard FW).
It would be nice to add the ability to arbitrarily change the color of the waveform in one of the next firmware updates. It is difficult for people with color perception to distinguish between yellow and green with low contrast relative to each other. This is especially true for 2-channel models. It is not for nothing that many oscilloscopes have yellow and cyan colors, which are easily distinguishable by everyone.
Max.
Thanks.
I have a question about the operation of the RTB2000 touch screen.
I use a stylus that I once bought for my cell phone.
It works fine for selecting menu items, but not for drawing and labeling.
When I draw a line it is interrupted in many places.
Does anyone know a good pen for the RTB touch screen ?
br,
Frank
Rich, I have these thoughts:Hi Max - I'll pass this on. You probably already know you can change the waveforms to different intensity graded views which may help, but I like your idea in general (and it is something we offer on our RTE/RTO/RTP models). We are often trying to find that right mix of being easy for everyone to use, while still offering flexibility for power users, but it seems like this would be an easy add to the waveform color menu that already exists (without adding too much complexity).
It would be nice to add the ability to arbitrarily change the color of the waveform in one of the next firmware updates. It is difficult for people with color perception to distinguish between yellow and green with low contrast relative to each other. This is especially true for 2-channel models. It is not for nothing that many oscilloscopes have yellow and cyan colors, which are easily distinguishable by everyone.
Max.
but it seems like this would be an easy add to the waveform color menu that already exists (without adding too much complexity).And as you have PWM LED drivers on the front panel board, it would also be easy to make the button colours match.
Has there been any update with the latest firmware regarding the maximum number of protocol decoders enabled at the same time ?
Last I heard was a maximum of two, and RX/TX serial decode counts as two decoder, so basically if you decode one UART, you are using all the decoders.
You can configure 2 protocol buses and select one of the configured buses for analysis.
Trigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals.
QuoteHas there been any update with the latest firmware regarding the maximum number of protocol decoders enabled at the same time ?
Last I heard was a maximum of two, and RX/TX serial decode counts as two decoder, so basically if you decode one UART, you are using all the decoders.
Interesting you mention that. It seems I cannot decode SPI and CAN at the same time. When I activate 'decode' of SPI on Bus B1, a CAN protocol on bus B2 is disabled (?!?). It greys out both in the vertical menu, as in the bottom menu (see screenshot). I made sure they do not overlap in the input channels used (by using the MSO).
(Attachment Link)
If I do something wrong, please tell me.
But if this is indeed yet another limitation with the RTB, then this is too bad. Even my PicoScope 3405D and the much cheaper PicoScope 2000 series models can do multiple protocols at the same time with no problems. For the RTB, serial decoding is a rather expensive option, and still seems to have serious limitations in terms of usage.
Also wondering where/wether R&S provides more specific information on these limitations? I might overlook it, but the only relevant text on this in the manual I am finding is:QuoteYou can configure 2 protocol buses and select one of the configured buses for analysis.
The R&S RTx-K1, -K2, -K3, -K5, -K6, -K7 Serial Protocol Triggering and Decoding – Fact Sheet (https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/Option_sheet_-_RTx-K1_-K2_-K3_-K5_-K6_-K7_serial_protocol_triggering_and_decoding_v1.10.pdf), which applies to the RTB, says:QuoteTrigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals.
And does not mention any limitation (!) At the page bottom, it provides an URL for 'further information', but this is a broken link.
They do. It's called datasheet.
"Trigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals."And this data sheet does not list any reservation, any limitation or whatever.
Obviously R&S tries to get the most money possible, and there are marketing ways to do that including intentionally crippling the features of the "cheap" units. Doesn't take a PhD in marketing to understand this.
But as users we should not defend that. And there are always users who seem to do exactly that.
I don't know why, maybe to look cool, maybe to look interesting and superior, but I will never understand this type of reply.
I mean, what's next, ask to pay more for less features ? :-//
And don't get me started on the bandwidth upgrade options costing thousands... for hardware which is already there anyway. No idea how we accept this bullsh*t.
@2N3055:QuoteThey do. It's called datasheet.
So we seem to be in agreement, that it is the datasheet that tells us what the instrument should be (at minimal) capable of.
Like I wrote before, it is stated in the datasheets that apply to the RTB-K1, RTB-K2, RTB-K3 software options (which are the specific software options for the RTB scope) thatQuote"Trigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals."And this data sheet does not list any reservation, any limitation or whatever.
If the datasheet unconditionally specifies it, then we cannot wave this away as an unreasonable expectation of the buyer of the instrument!
Again (and I am now repeating myself): I find it totally legitimate that R&S differentiates between their various offerings, like the RTB, RTM, RTA. But they do need, at minimum, to comply with the datasheets they publish for specific models.
Brochures and other marketing materials are not to be trusted and are marketing bullshit mostly, designed to confuse customer and painting a rosy picture..
Waveform and pattern generator: The integrated R&S RTB-B6 waveform and pattern generator (up to 50 Mbit/s) is useful for educational purposes and for implementing prototype hardware. Apart from the common sine, square/pulse, ramp and noise waveforms, it outputs arbitrary waveforms and 4-bit signal patterns. Waveforms and patterns can be imported as CSV files or copied from oscilloscope waveforms. Before playing signals back, the user can preview them to quickly check signal correctness. Predefined patterns for e.g. I2C, SPI, UART and CAN/LIN can be used.
Dear 2N3055, thanks for the reply.QuoteBrochures and other marketing materials are not to be trusted and are marketing bullshit mostly, designed to confuse customer and painting a rosy picture..
I see what you read, but I don’t think that we, as buyers of such instrument, should too easily be willing to accept this line of reasoning, that any other document than one called a “data sheet” does not bring any obligation. Also information in documents that are called “fact sheets”, or for that matter “brochures”, should be something people could rely on, have trust in. Their language should not be factually incorrect or deceiving.
Going back to the verbatim language we were discussing in the ‘fact sheet’ document “Decoding of up to four serial buses: Trigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals”. I really believe one should reasonably be able this as “if you want to decode four buses at the same time, then this software you can buy from us allows you to do this”. And not like “we mentioned four, but it may also three, or two…”. Heck, this way I would also need to accept zero as an answer! Note also this is a very specific document, only about these separate software licenses to decode buses.
If it would have read “You may be able to decode up to four different interfaces”, or “depending on your oscilloscope model or the protocol in question, you can decode up to four different interfaces at once”, then I think it would have been ok.
I have one more example. The RTB2000 Product Brochure, Version 06.000 (https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0600.pdf) has the following text (emphasis added):QuoteWaveform and pattern generator: The integrated R&S RTB-B6 waveform and pattern generator (up to 50 Mbit/s) is useful for educational purposes and for implementing prototype hardware. Apart from the common sine, square/pulse, ramp and noise waveforms, it outputs arbitrary waveforms and 4-bit signal patterns. Waveforms and patterns can be imported as CSV files or copied from oscilloscope waveforms. Before playing signals back, the user can preview them to quickly check signal correctness. Predefined patterns for e.g. I2C, SPI, UART and CAN/LIN can be used.
Well, in fact, you cannot import patterns as CSV files (and if I’m wrong here, someone let me know!). Is that OK?
Correction added. :P
Keysight started selling their DSOX1204 series (latest 1000 series 4ch) with all serial protocols for free, only after Siglentandthen later Rigol had them for free and nobody would buy Keysight in that range because it was too expensive. It is still more expensive compared to similar Chinese offerings, but not by factor of 3..
@2N3055: After this conversation, I see we are not that far apart, really.Why not ? :-//
In my view, there are three components to this:
1. A business component. Satisfied customers are more loyal: they come back and encourage others to buy from you as well. This should be at least one reason for an instrument maker not to make false promises or use misleading language in any of their documents.
2. An ethical/moral component. (No elaboration needed here, I hope.)
3. A legal component. While you write 'By law only datasheet (or specification sheet) is document that needs to accurately present true capabilities at the date of sale.', I would not take such a narrow interpretation for granted. One-sided commitments or statements may have a legally binding significance. Such things will certainly depend on applicable law (the country in question). Moreover, they will depend on the applicable regime - don't be surprised how many expensive measurement instruments are bought by private consumers, which in many countries enjoy specific protection or rights. While I personally do not like to resort directly to this legal component, and I rather leave interpretation to legal professionals, things may not be as negative as you think.
best regards,
Why not ? :-//
I also observe that when lawyers or other legal professionals are mentioned in this forum or similar places, it is often in a negative connotation. I think that is regrettable. In my daily work, I have engaged often with legal professionals, in several dozen legal cases, and most often, these are constructive, professional and very hard-working individuals, and quite often, very, very intelligent. If working in a company, these people play an important role for the company to behave right, instead of wrong.Not just that; I've seen people / businesses tripping over their own mistakes because they where too stubborn or ignorant to obtain solid legal advice.
@Tautech: I see you work for a company.Yes, mine.
QuoteHas there been any update with the latest firmware regarding the maximum number of protocol decoders enabled at the same time ?
Last I heard was a maximum of two, and RX/TX serial decode counts as two decoder, so basically if you decode one UART, you are using all the decoders.
Interesting you mention that. It seems I cannot decode SPI and CAN at the same time. When I activate 'decode' of SPI on Bus B1, a CAN protocol on bus B2 is disabled (?!?). It greys out both in the vertical menu, as in the bottom menu (see screenshot). I made sure they do not overlap in the input channels used (by using the MSO).
Since it wasn't explicitly stated if you overcame this problem: You need to set the SPI to only decode MOSI and set MISO to None in the protocol configuration, if you want to do a CAN decode on B2. Doing both MOSI and MISO on B1 is bringing you to the two decode limit.
The RTB2000 was a great 'entry level' scope 3.5 years ago. I like many others here got it at the intro price, and at the time it was a great deal (~$2200 or so fully loaded). Now the B-Market has caught up with a vengeance since the RTB2000 was first released. As much as I like the RTB2000 still, I doubt I would have still purchased it today if I was in the market for a new scope. It is still a great scope, just much harder to justify even at sale prices imho.
But seeing the reply above, not sure the R&S software is bug free....
QuoteBut seeing the reply above, not sure the R&S software is bug free....
To avoid misinterpretation: with my RTB, I certainly do not experience a lot of crashes. With earlier firmware I (very) occasionally had crashes (some of which I learned to avoid because I know what triggered them). With the current (2.300) firmware, I'm not sure I had any crashes, but its only out recently, so too early to tell for me whether they now addressed them all.
Over time, quite a few 'other' bugs were addressed in firmware updates, for which quite detailed change logs are issued. But the process has been rather long (several years to iron out several bugs), and there are some bugs that remain.
I cannot compare this to recent scopes of other brands in terms of crashes or bugs because I do not have experience with them.
(Well, I have a Tek 453, a Tek 2465A, and a trusty HAMEG HM 203-5, and hey, none of them ever crashed, but I would not take them as comparison points for this discussion ;-)))
ever heard about a car with an software limitation of the horsepower, which offered paid upgrades to remove that limitation ?
Today, in that range, for much less money you have Siglent SDS2000X Plus series
We were allowed to save screenshots to internal memory in last firmware 2.300. But how can I get them back from the internal memory? I haven't found a way to copy them on a USB stick or access them via the web interface.
Somebody knows?
QuoteToday, in that range, for much less money you have Siglent SDS2000X Plus series
Depends on how you define “much less”. At the time of my purchase, the difference was 30%. So, yes, the Siglent was less expensive, but not terribly so, and lacked some of the features I was looking got (like Bode frequency response).
(In detail: I bought the RTB2004COM4 for €3800, and at that time, the comparable configuration of the SDS2000X (300 MHz 4 channel, plus SPL2016 MSO probes, SDS2000X serial decoders and SDS2000X function generator) was €2900. (All prices include VAT.) We all know promotions for options change all the time, so these prices can be different at other points in time.)
Oh sorry, you are right, I was comparing to the about the SDS2000X, not the SDS2000X Plus you mention.
Made me wonder what I would do today. Just looked at the current prices (so not considering which of the two is the better scope). Checking more or less comparable configurations (its never identical, but I tried to be fair) and the currently available "promotional bundles" for both instruments, and looking at the same store, I see €2599+€335=€2934 for the SDS2354X-plus and the SPL2016 Logic Probes (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2354X-plus.html), and € 3390 for the RTB2004 COM4 (https://nl.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-bundle-rtb2004-b243-b1-pk1/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2004+com4) (which includes the logic probes). Both offers include the serial decoding options. (All prices excluding VAT.)
Price difference is less than 10%, so I would say these prices are more or less on par, and that the Siglent is not "much cheaper".
The RTB2000 was a great 'entry level' scope 3.5 years ago. I like many others here got it at the intro price, and at the time it was a great deal (~$2200 or so fully loaded). Now the B-Market has caught up with a vengeance since the RTB2000 was first released. As much as I like the RTB2000 still, I doubt I would have still purchased it today if I was in the market for a new scope. It is still a great scope, just much harder to justify even at sale prices imho.
This is where R&S could start releasing some feature upgrades, to keep the attractiveness. Additional serial decodes like I mentioned could be a possibility.
Or significantly reducing the price for the bandwidth "upgrades" which is an outrageous concept anyway (ever heard about a car with an software limitation of the horsepower, which offered paid upgrades to remove that limitation ?), at least for hobbyists. Not 20% off. Divide it by 10.
I do have some experience with "B series", specifically a Rigol DSA832. Not a scope, I know, but it speaks about the company. Not super happy with the quality of the firmware. Lots of crashes, some weird annoying bugs, and missing features which made usability for some use cases much harder than what it should/could have been.
I also have experience with a R&S CMU200. Felt much better. So I hope that R&S made a better job than the B-series with the recent products, which would help justifying the price. But seeing the reply above, not sure the R&S software is bug free....
We were wrong, at first they sent us a quote for ~1200€+VAT which was about what we expected, but then they corrected their quote claiming that since the scope that we want to be "repaired" is a 300MHz version then we would need to pay ~2200€+VAT.
[...]
Rich, if you read this then I would be grateful if you could explain....
Hi!
Thought I need to share my latest R&S experience.
We have two of these scopes for everyday work. They are loaded with all the software options, one has a 300MHz BW and the other 100MHz.
We have been quite satisfied with these scopes so far, but now when we have a experience with R&S customer support policy then we probably won't
buy another R&S product, ever!
It started one morning when the 300MHz RTB2004 did not start anymore. When the power-button was pressed then the front panel LEDs just
blinked once, the fan turned on and not much else happened. The scope was dead.
Since the thing was no longer in warranty we contacted the R&S local branch for quote for repairing it, thinking that the worst case scenario
would be paying them the price of the new RTB2004 without any options and they will add the same options to it that the dead scope had.
We were wrong, at first they sent us a quote for ~1200€+VAT which was about what we expected, but then they corrected their quote claiming that
since the scope that we want to be "repaired" is a 300MHz version then we would need to pay ~2200€+VAT.
So beware of this when considering buying "cheap" hardware with expensive options R&S, when the hardware dies then you need to buy new options as well.
Rich, if you read this then I would be grateful if you could explain....
With best wishes,
Marek
Yep. To me, that's the entire point of a SW license. at 2k/repair i can literally buy a new RTB and transfer my licenses.where did you get the ideia that you can transfer "their" licenses? Transferable licenses exist for top-top HW, but they are not what you buy as a permanent license or in a bundle.
Rich posted it somewhere in this thread I think. Not sure; just saw you posted above me. Can you clarify whether a license transfer is possible?In general, the licenses are node locked to the instrument. There is a way, but there is a fee and I'm not exactly sure how it would work for a RTB-class instrument (it's used more on higher-end gear).
R&S licensing has the concept of portable licenses and the mechanisms to deal with such licenses.Correct. Just to be clear, on many of our instruments (in addition to node locked) we offer portable licenses that can be moved between instruments as needed. And when an instrument is sent in for service, we (of course) would also move licenses from the old piece of equipment to the new piece if it is a "replace" vs. "repair" type situation.
I would say that such scheme is to be used by a client who has multiple equipments and may want to share one of the options between 2 such equipments. A nice idea.
BUT, in this particular case, such explanation is nonsense. The equipment is being serviced by R&S as such, if R&S needs to change anything that implies a modification of the Device's ID (and consequently its licenses), R&S has full control to reissue new licenses associated with the new Device ID without any extra costs whatsoever for R&S. Unless the R&S keygen has an insert coin slot...
He pulled some strings and we were contacted by R&S and they sent a new quote for 1200. :)
Its sad that you need to know "someone who cares" for that and it hadn't ended as well If I had not known this forum and thread.
Thank you Rich! In my eyes you are doing the work of R&S customer relations and support far better than the people R&S officially has for that job.
It is ridiculous that the REAL support is done by a guy in the EEVblog forum who "pulls strings". Honestly, that is NOT a good thing. That is just *embarassing*.
Okay, now I'm thinking I made a mistake to buy this scope. "A batch of bad IC's." I sold kits years ago and have been using chips for 25 years, lots of them. You know how many of the chips and uC's went bad? Zero. It's possible one or two went bad but a "batch". Something's wrong there and my guess it's not the chip manufacturer, it's in design somewhere or R&S cut a corner on specs.
Okay, now I'm thinking I made a mistake to buy this scope. "A batch of bad IC's." I sold kits years ago and have been using chips for 25 years, lots of them. You know how many of the chips and uC's went bad? Zero. It's possible one or two went bad but a "batch". Something's wrong there and my guess it's not the chip manufacturer, it's in design somewhere or R&S cut a corner on specs.
I don't think you made a mistake there. On the one hand I complained above R&S's support above, but on the other hand, I surely can say that the hardware itself is fine, at least from my personal experience. Just remember that people are just speculating.
You know, R&S is constantly attacked in the most nonsensical ways. "This and that is total crap" etc. I think these attacks are only made because people WANT R&S to fail, they want to find something bad. If something doesn't have the right feel to your hand -- CRAP, what else?
At the same time, Rigol and Siglent are constantly praised, no matter what they do, and sometimes what they do is pretty absurd. Remember Siglent's rust? Remember Rigol's awful power supply overheating? Remember Rigol's awful bugs in the 5000 series? I saw this stuff in Dave's videos, and for me that's pretty inacceptable. But they are praised again and again and again while a manufacturer like R&S is harshly attacked because someone doesn't like a probe or whatever.
Rigol and Siglent have the (unfounded) reputation of "test gear for the masses" and as such are praised by people who identify with "the masses" (but actually just want to keep their money for themselves).
I think most of the criticism is not about test gear. It's about social status and self-image.
Many people refrain from criticizing Rigol or Siglent because if they did, they would be nagging killjoys. But they criticize R&S because then they are the ones who are rejecting the "luxury brand" which boosts their self-esteem.
At the same time, Rigol and Siglent are constantly praised, no matter what they do, and sometimes what they do is pretty absurd.
I have a different perception. Rigol and siglent are constantly bashed for their firmware updates (or lack of thereof).OTOH Rigol and Siglent are also praised for their firmware updates which keep drawing attention. I guess they very well understand their is no such thing as bad publicity. If these brands release a piece of equipment that works like it should out of the box it likely doesn't sell well because it doesn't get any attention.
it was a $900 instrument
When you are calibrating your RT-ZP03 probes, how clean is the top - right after the rising edge.
I calibrated all of mine and they are quite "ratty" i.e. lots of ringing. I was never able to get a clean waveform for the second step where you adjust the two trim pots near where the probe attaches to the scope.
However, I'm struggling a bit with what seems to be some idiosyncrasies when protocol-analysing an I2C bus at the limit of sampling memory. The scope seems to highlight protocol errors where I think it should still decode fine based on the analogue channels, and upon closer inspection also the timing of the logic transitions detected by the protocol engine seems off.What does the I2C specification say about timing for 400kHz? I think your I2C bus might violate I2C timing.
I've highlighted in red where (I think) the protocol engine thinks SDA changed while SCL was high, red-marking that entire part of the frame as error.
I've highlighted in blue that apparently the protocol engine has some -0.6us delay in the SCL logic edges wrt the SCL edges in Ch2.
You made the right choice, congratulations! ;)
What does the I2C specification say about timing for 400kHz? I think your I2C bus might violate I2C timing.
Somebody else had the luck?
It is independent of the window. Any of these: FlatTop, Hanning, Rect etc. gives the same false harmonic result. Each RTB2000 owner can verify this on his own.
For comparison, Siglent SDS2000X+ and Keysight DSO3034 provides an adequate spectrum for all settings and situations.
Can you show us that? Maybe there is an actual bug on how the RTB applies the window function, I'd sure want to know that. Be sure to include what window was chosen on either scope.
Or am I doing something wrong?Yes. Look at the samplerate on the RTB2004!
On RTB2000 you cannot control the samplerate in FFT mode. Scope chooses samplerate himself depending on the center frequency, span and RBW settings.No. You are analysing a signal with the wrong settings. The samplerate is sufficient to fulfill the Nyquist criteria for the FFT settings.
If the cause of phantom harmonics is a low samplerate, then the scope is choosing it incorrectly for current span/RBW and this is an error in any case.
If the cause of phantom harmonics is a low samplerateWe're not seeing "phantom harmonics", but aliasing. The test case you're looking at is much too complex to see this easily though.
@Nico, you're right, the samplerate is sufficient to fulfil Nyquist at the FFT settings. But we still clearly see aliasing.On RTB2000 you cannot control the samplerate in FFT mode. Scope chooses samplerate himself depending on the center frequency, span and RBW settings.No. You are analysing a signal with the wrong settings. The samplerate is sufficient to fulfill the Nyquist criteria for the FFT settings.
If the cause of phantom harmonics is a low samplerate, then the scope is choosing it incorrectly for current span/RBW and this is an error in any case.
The sample rate is chosen automatically to sit a step or two above Nyquist for the chosen stop frequency. Even without this weird aliasing, there are situations where you know you have frequency components above the automatically chosen Nyquist, but you're zooming the FFT to look at a lower frequency component. You cannot avoid downconverting some stuff into your lower-freq fft band of interest in that scenario!On the RTM3004 it works the same. You have to set the
Unless I just missed how to set the sample-rate. @Nico: how does this work in the RTM?
On the RTM3004 it works the same. You have to set the RBW to be above the highest frequency in the signal to avoid aliasing. But in the end there is a limited number of FFT points which limits the frequency resolution. The only way around is to limit the frequency spectrum of the incoming signal to make sure there is no aliasing. This is true no matter what the FFT depth is.
I suppose the scope could oversample and digitally lowpass filter the signal before the FFT, but I don't know if that's commonly done. And I don't know if I would consider that intuitive/expected (unless it was an explicit option) either.Maybe I'm being daft, but I don't yet see the need to digitally lowpass filter beyond just cutting the top end of the fft as the user asks. Pretty much what happens with the low-frequency end of the fft when you don't display down to DC, unless I'm missing something.
Maybe I'm being daft, but I don't yet see the need to digitally lowpass filter beyond just cutting the top end of the fft as the user asks. Pretty much what happens with the low-frequency end of the fft when you don't display down to DC, unless I'm missing something.
If you sample at a low sample rate (or really any sample rate, but illustratively for here), then any component of the signal with a frequency above half the sample rate (for real signals) will get folded into the range from 0 to half the sample rate: Aliasing.
If you'd instead, for example, sample at the full sample rate of the scope, then lowpass filter, and then downsample, then there are no components left at frequencies over half the sample rate that could alias back into it.
However, the most simple low-pass filter could be simply "don't display the calculated fft beyond f_stop". I think this is what happens to the poor fft points below f_start (but not being a DSP wizard I might be mistaken).
Oh, you mean always sample at the full sample rate, and never downsample? But that means that you fit much less of the waveform in memory... wouldn't that be an issue here as well?
No, I made a typo. It has to be stop frequency. I fixed my posting.On the RTM3004 it works the same. You have to set the RBW to be above the highest frequency in the signal to avoid aliasing. But in the end there is a limited number of FFT points which limits the frequency resolution. The only way around is to limit the frequency spectrum of the incoming signal to make sure there is no aliasing. This is true no matter what the FFT depth is.
Huh? Do you really mean the RBW?
@maxspb69 same question for the SDS2k+. Could you try to place a signal close to the sample rate the SDS2k+ chooses, and see if you see spurs?Typically Siglents do better FFT with a slow timebase setting with lots of periods displayed however you're up against it with the SDS2000X Plus 2 Mpts FFT.
In your videos it looked like the sample rate was 100MSa/s, so the situation will be very different. Maybe it will be useful to limit the sample rate to create a more comparable situation.
Problem is that realtime FFT based spectral analysis cannot have all the combinations of sample rate RBW and bandwidth, like classic SA.
Without going too much in detail, it simply means this: if you want to look at 10 MHz with span of +- 1 MHz, that means you need to calculate FFT from 0 to 12 MHz, and then only show from 9-11Mhz. To do that , you need to sample at least at 25 MHz, and to get wanted RBW you need to get enough FFT bins to achieve it. It is not like with standard SA that can have constant RBW anywhere in a full span, and capture only bandwidth of interest. In reality you also might want to oversample a bit to avoid aliasing.
Spectrum analysis option on RTM3000 should use more advanced algorithms borrowed from realtime SA (R&S should know how that's done!) like overlaped FFT and many other tricks. I would be surprised if that one shows same problems.I'm hanging on the edge of my seat to see what Nico reports from his RTM3k. And expect to be jealous.
I agree with Zlotnik (golden coin ^-^),Hehe. Indeed one of my non-electronics hobbies is goldsmithing.
problem is that you don't have control over sampling rate. I like how Keysight implemented this, timebase fixes sampling rate, FFT will show you what is possible with that sample rate. Also Picoscope has interesting implementation, they don't pretend it is SA, they simply do FFT from 0 to 1/2 sample rate, number of bins defines RBW as percentage of sample rate, and if you wan't to see something in the middle you zoom in on the screen... It seems weird to someone coming from SA, but is consistent with how FFT works, so no surprises.
No. I already did some tests on the RTM3004 and it shows exactly the same behaviour. The RTM3004 is pretty similar to the RTB2004 where it comes how the functionality is implemented.Spectrum analysis option on RTM3000 should use more advanced algorithms borrowed from realtime SA (R&S should know how that's done!) like overlaped FFT and many other tricks. I would be surprised if that one shows same problems.I'm hanging on the edge of my seat to see what Nico reports from his RTM3k. And expect to be jealous.
No. I already did some tests on the RTM3004 and it shows exactly the same behaviour. The RTM3004 is pretty similar to the RTB2004 where it comes how the functionality is implemented.Spectrum analysis option on RTM3000 should use more advanced algorithms borrowed from realtime SA (R&S should know how that's done!) like overlaped FFT and many other tricks. I would be surprised if that one shows same problems.I'm hanging on the edge of my seat to see what Nico reports from his RTM3k. And expect to be jealous.
No. I already did some tests on the RTM3004 and it shows exactly the same behaviour. The RTM3004 is pretty similar to the RTB2004 where it comes how the functionality is implemented.
The RTB2000 really needs the ability to manual control the sampling rate/timebase in the FFT mode, then there will be less problems. RTB reduces the sampling rate unacceptably low when narrowing the span, as a result, if I understand correctly, aliasing and the display of non-existent harmonics appear in some situations.
This is a payment for a user-friendly interface "like on a spectrum analyzer"
Both. There is no control of sampling rate so you'll get the same spurs if a signal is undersampled. I can do some tests if someone comes up with a specific test scenario.No. I already did some tests on the RTM3004 and it shows exactly the same behaviour. The RTM3004 is pretty similar to the RTB2004 where it comes how the functionality is implemented.
Do you mean the control of sampling rate in fft mode, or the spurs?
Ok, I made progress.Likely the memory length is now set to 'auto' instead of a (long) fixed length. If you need high capture rates then set the memory length to a small amount or auto.
Something was wrong with the internal memory of the scope I guess.
I did a secure erase and times are now down to more reasonable values.
Have to do more tests.
Before I was stuck at 5ms/200Hz. I tried everything.
Boy this is implemented way too complicated.This is basically how you setup a segmented recording on any oscilloscope. The difference between 'fast sequence' and 'normal sequence' mode is that in the latter the display is updated as well so you can see what is actually being captured instead of looking at a counter going up without any idea whether the data is useful or not. Then again, if your events come in fast you don't waste much time in case you need to re-capture so being able to see what is going on is less of an issue.
I managed to capture now all segments. But you have to
- Have the record length in auto (ok, understood this, if you capture too much it takes too much time)
- Be in normal trigger mode (Why ?)
- Arm a single trigger
- Have the Nx set to larger or equal the number of expected segments.
- Have fast capture mode on (it does not work without even with my 10ms between segments)
Ah no, I have disabled all and it did not change.I did not manage what you did in the second picture (RTB2004-PulseBurst-1-21-Sample.png), where there is 10ms delta and fast-capture off.
There, I get huge variations in trigger time.
Maybe activated measurements are to blame? They also need time and probably slow down the trigger.
Peter
@GoatyThank you for clarifying this. I was under the impression that in Auto, if there is no trigger, I still see the waveform on the screen (capture), but it is untriggered all the time (like freerunning).
Auto trigger mode is behaving EXACTLY as it should. It waits for trigger for some short time and then if there was no trigger event, it AUTO triggers without reason. It is equivalent of you pressing "force trigger" every few hundred milliseconds. To wait for trigger unconditionally you use NORMAL mode. (People get confused that AUTO means scope will magically discover appropriate trigger settings by itself. It doesn't. It simply takes blind capture every now and then. Purpose of that is that scope will show something on the screen even if you setup trigger wrong or there is no trigger event)
From RTB 2000 Manual:
"Auto" The instrument triggers repeatedly after a time interval if the trigger
conditions are not fulfilled. If a real trigger occurs, it takes precedence. This mode helps to see the waveform even before the trigger
is set. The waveform on the screen is not synchronized, and successive waveforms are not triggered at the same point of the waveform.
"Norm" The instrument acquires a waveform only if a trigger occurs, that is, if
all trigger conditions are fulfilled. If no trigger occurs, no waveform is
acquired and the last acquired waveform is displayed. If no waveform
was captured before, nothing is displayed.
I said on many occasions that it is unfortunate that what is called AUTO trigger should be called TIMEOUT trigger and there would be less confusion..
@GoatyIf I press SINGLE it captures what I set with Nx=..., then stops. If I press RUN, it does not stop for me, it runs continuously. Or did I misunderstand ?
Segmented mode (fast one) is always single burst. How else would it be? You set it to capture 20 segments, and it does that and stops. Otherwise it wouldn't be 20 i you let it run forever. Also if you press SINGLE or RUN it is the same. It would capture next 20 trigger events (without screen updates) and then stop. On Keysight you can press SINGLE or RUN and it is the same.
When you use History mode (segmented with screen updates) retrigger time will be somewhat jittery. Reason is screen refresh, that happens on regular interval for screen, and it will make a scope "pause" a little while screen is being rendered. It takes time to take all that data from buffer, decimate it from megapoints to kilopixels and render it for screen. And those little "pauses" will happen at seemingly "random" intervals in correlation to your signal, because those two events are not correlated.
Because of that, there is "fast" segmented mode (one without screen updates) to make retrigger time and captures deterministic and as fast as possible.
And as Nico said, if you need retrigger time in msec, by the time you blink, you'll have hundreds of captured buffers already there waiting.
Thank you for clarifying this. I was under the impression that in Auto, if there is no trigger, I still see the waveform on the screen (capture), but it is untriggered all the time (like freerunning).
Also I do not see the trigger LED, which led me to believe, that also the history must therefore be NOT filled.
If I press SINGLE it captures what I set with Nx=..., then stops. If I press RUN, it does not stop for me, it runs continuously. Or did I misunderstand ?
I understand it will jitter because it´s probably not fully asynchronous, which it IMHO shuld be (acquisition and display processing),
but I was mislead by the "up to 50000wfms/s" which I have not been able to even closely reach.
It does not matter in most cases, but for trying to capture bursts with long pauses, one has to know the re-arm time, or use fast-capture. But then you have to know the Nx...
I guess I have a lot more reading and experimenting to do.
Thank you for taking the time to write !!
I have tested again, this time with the Rigol DG4000 as signal source. Now the normal history mode works as well. Each of the 21 data packets is recorded. The Peak Detect mode is slower, one should also consider.
I will test again with the internal pattern generator.
Peter
I have tested again, this time with the Rigol DG4000 as signal source. Now the normal history mode works as well. Each of the 21 data packets is recorded. The Peak Detect mode is slower, one should also consider.
I will test again with the internal pattern generator.
Peter
Is it really possible that the delta time is always exactly the same to the last nanosecond ? This looks very strange to me.
(RTB2004-PulseBurst-1-21-Sample.png)
Because of the trigger re-arm uncertainty I´m getting a bit suspicious about what the scope software is showing me.
I rember the DS1054Z showing a trigger delay of 10.00000000456ps or so.
Trigger rearm to ready time is separate form internal time base. Scope is showing exactly what time it was between triggers. It knows. It is simply not ready to get another sample at all times in exactly same interval. That is true for all scopes..I know the scope knows, but that is not the point. The point is that I need to know the time it _will_ need in order to decide if I need Fast Segmentation or not.
And I think I understood another thing now.
R&S have the Single button in Trigger, but it really is single acquisition, not single trigger.
On DS1054Z, I pressed Single, it was single trigger regardless whether before Auto or Manual was chosen.
Makes sense now, but is slightly different behaviour.
As you said, I really should study the manual more in depth.Trigger rearm to ready time is separate form internal time base. Scope is showing exactly what time it was between triggers. It knows. It is simply not ready to get another sample at all times in exactly same interval. That is true for all scopes..I know the scope knows, but that is not the point. The point is that I need to know the time it _will_ need in order to decide if I need Fast Segmentation or not.
If I have no idea, how long the time is before next trigger is possible, how can history be of any use ? Only and only with very long times between trigger (>100ms) or use Fast Segmentation.
Still not quite convinced this is a optimal implementation.
I have observed the trigger out with another oscilloscope and I have noticed errors.
Immediately after starting a recording there are gaps in the trigger. Only after a short time is triggered on each packet. Of course this can become a problem.
10 Msample memory depth is available on each channel if all channels are active. When interleaved, 20 Msample are available.
I don’t think it’s impossible (or extremely hard) to implement for the digital channels only in an FPGA, without waste of memory even. You’d capture non-sparse by default, but once the number of running zeros or ones exceeds the length of two timestamp plus a sentinel value, you instead[1] emit that sentinel value to indicate that sparse capture is happening now, followed by the current timestamp, and then a second timestamp once the value changes again.Capturing the data is 1% of the complexity of a modern DSO. There is so much else at play that supporting compression will make the system as a whole extremely complex.
I now also found this "fact sheet": https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/Option_sheet_-_RTx-B1_mixed_signal_analysis_v1.10.pdf
It says there is "no consumption of analog channels", and that the memory depth is "10 Msample". This contradicts the 20 Msamples table entries for when only analog channels 1 or 1+3 are active (probably just understating the capabilities), but it does also further suggest that all 4 analog channels can be enabled with any number of digital channels, and that there will always be at least 10 Msamples for all of those. On some signals, I might be able to reach up to 160 Msamples total with the proper triggers and fast segmentation.
MSOs don't have compression like most logic analysers. The reason is that compression won't work for analog signals AND you will need extra memory for timestamps. Compression doesn't fit in the memory model of a DSO.
Well, it is capacitive touch screen..
Nobody liked resistive ones... Now we have a electric field generator..
But I doubt that is a biggest problem with all the led lights and switchers and WiFi and GSM signal around the lab.
It should be mostly near field. EMC is being measured from the distance..
But I agree it seems too much. On my touch screen scopes, i have to be at 5mV/DIV to detect something with largest near field probe from TekBox.
What's odd is the RTB doesn't turn off the touch screen when you press the "touch lock" button. The KS MSOX touchscreen miodels do disable the scanning ( and hence any noise) when the touchscreen is disabled
What's odd is the RTB doesn't turn off the touch screen when you press the "touch lock" button. The KS MSOX touchscreen miodels do disable the scanning ( and hence any noise) when the touchscreen is disabled
I tested on the RTM - I assume the RTB is the sameWhat's odd is the RTB doesn't turn off the touch screen when you press the "touch lock" button. The KS MSOX touchscreen miodels do disable the scanning ( and hence any noise) when the touchscreen is disabled
Mike, does the RTM3000 behave the same way?
(Attachment Link) A short comparison of channel noise, maybe not quite correct, but if you have some suggestions...
Some constraints:
2 mv because Rigol cannot go under this value without BW filter(automatic)
2 ns because Keysight cannot go more.
Also touch screen noise of RTB2002 compared with Rigol's touch screen noise.
For Hydron: Now I have attached 2 more pics that include Std. Dev values. For Keysight it was std. dev from the beginning, because it was not capable to correctly measure RMS value(no edges).
Thing to be mentioned: my post was not intended to be an in depth comparison, but just a very quick view of how those three scopes show their noise at first glance. For a more detailed measure of SNR I will need an anechoic room, and different signals at different frequency in various scenarios, as 2N3055 say.
I will leave this to the engineers.
Does anyone know what the RTB-B1 (mixed signal option, includes the logic probes) license key is actually for?
I received my RTB-B1 logic probes a while ago and just plugged them into my RTB2004, which I already upgraded with the RTB-PK1 package that includes pretty much all non-bandwidth software options. Despite RTB-B1 not being part of RTB-PK1, the scope accepted the logic probes immediately and I was able to use the digital channels.
While the MSO cable is not included, moving forward, we'll be enabling MSO in all our scopes - you will still need to purchase the probe (same cost), but now they can be moved between scopes. Not that big of a change for an individual user, but for a teaching lab it will be a huge improvement (they can buy say five MSO cables, keep them in a drawer and then hand them out to a bench as needed).
Can you take a picture with the panel lights?
Did you try to adjust the intensity of the LED's? Setup-Display-Intensities-LED Brightness.
In which country is assembled?
Modifications
- Increasing of FFT waveform update rate up to factor ten with low start frequencies and activated 'Automatic RBW'
- Removed extra treatment of ADC clipping values in waveform arithmetic average (Clipping values are now processed as normal ADC values and not emphasized in waveform)
- Option RTB-B6: Minimum difference between start and stop sweep frequency limited to 3Hz.
One of the reasons was the unusable FFT for low frequency.
Friends, we'll get a great gift.
Modifications
- Increasing of FFT waveform update rate up to factor ten with low start frequencies...
Update worked fast and flawless. (RTB2004-COM4)
I tried to update the firmware via the network connection using the SCPI commands ':DIAG:UPD:...'. Thereby I came across a peculiarity. With the command ':DIAG:UPD:TRAN:DATA offset,checksum,blockdata', the CRC-16-CCITT checksum is calculated in a wrong variant.
There is a description here:
http://srecord.sourceforge.net/crc16-ccitt.html (http://srecord.sourceforge.net/crc16-ccitt.html)
It only works with the 'Bad_CRC' variant.
One feature is missing: it's the component tester from the small brother. Is it possible to integrate it into the RTB scope?
One resistor plus a sinusoid from the function gen and x-y mode...and your done!
I noticed that when saving the settings, the attenuation setting for the probe is not saved or restored when loading.
it always worked this way.
It seem that in zoom mode it measure only from second screen(zoomed), where the signal is clipped.The reason for zooming in is to look at the detail of a signal so it makes sense to have the measurements active for the parts you are interested in. IOW: it makes sense that the measurements work on the signal in the zoom window and not the main window with the entire signal in it.
On another oscilloscope this is not happen but R&S is the only that I have with this kind of zoom (horizontal and vertical), so here the problem.
It seem that in zoom mode it measure only from second screen(zoomed), where the signal is clipped.The reason for zooming in is to look at the detail of a signal so it makes sense to have the measurements active for the parts you are interested in. IOW: it makes sense that the measurements work on the signal in the zoom window and not the main window with the entire signal in it.
On another oscilloscope this is not happen but R&S is the only that I have with this kind of zoom (horizontal and vertical), so here the problem.
Note that the RTB2004 uses decimated data for the measurements so (for example) measuring the risetime of an edge is not always possible for the main window. But when zoomed in, you can get a good measurement. Or think about measuring the frequency at a certain point of the signal. In a way the zoom window works as a measurement gating system as well.
It seem that in zoom mode it measure only from second screen(zoomed), where the signal is clipped.The reason for zooming in is to look at the detail of a signal so it makes sense to have the measurements active for the parts you are interested in. IOW: it makes sense that the measurements work on the signal in the zoom window and not the main window with the entire signal in it.
On another oscilloscope this is not happen but R&S is the only that I have with this kind of zoom (horizontal and vertical), so here the problem.
Note that the RTB2004 uses decimated data for the measurements so (for example) measuring the risetime of an edge is not always possible for the main window. But when zoomed in, you can get a good measurement. Or think about measuring the frequency at a certain point of the signal. In a way the zoom window works as a measurement gating system as well.
On some scopes you have gating: a function like cursors, where you use it to select part of the waveform that is of interest for you and then tell it to do measurements only from that area.
Some scopes (some from R&S, Keysight etc) use zoom function for that functionality.
I have understood it now. The measuring range is not the displayed zoom range, but the complete height, and only the selected width of the zoom range.
Peter
I read out the temperatures and the fan speed with undocumented SCPI commands.Are the ADC temperature values correct? I'm asking because the heat sink on mine levels out at 34C, so a chip temperature of 64C seems high. Also it looks as if the plotted temperature starts at 42C and not at 20C.
Attached is a recording of one hour directly after power on. Every 5 seconds the values for ADC0, FPGA, CPU, TMP432, fan speed and rpm were stored. Only channels 1 and 3 were active in the default setting. The room temperature was ~ 20 degrees Celsius.
....then back to automatic control for half an hour.Does your scope control the fan speed? Mine runs continuously at 1750 rpm irrespective of temperature. No control whatsoever.
While I also tend towards the "bug" (or at least "not intentionally thought of as a constraint") interpretation, one thing that *could* play a role is the answer to the following question: According to the CAN standard, is it even permissible to have, on a particular bus, CAN messages with identical ID but variable message length?
in RTA4004 there a 1.1 more error. [...] and in the CAN text is "RTB2000".
the RTA4004 has the same error as RBBVNL9 describes " the scope only triggers in CAN (ID&data) if you set the exact right message length, while in LIN that is not the case...".
When is the last time you have seen a PAL signal? I can imagine they added it for completeness and didn't pay much attention to testing it.
Update to v2.4 went flawlessly but the bug I hoped to be fixed is unfortunately still there... Reported half a year ago, maybe a post here gives it some more attention:IMHO it is not a bug but a feature. Some Tektronix oscilloscopes also do this. Sometimes it is handy to have the previous capture still on the screen to see how a signal has changed compared to the current acquisition. Sometimes it is a nuisance because you have to do something (probably pressing the channel button also clears the old trace) to get rid of the previous trace.
To reproduce
* hook up any channel to the 1kHz probe calibration signal (signal source really doesn't matter but this is the easiest)
* Put it into auto mode, with the trigger somewhere above/below the signal (=> free running)
* Hit the stop button
What you get are multiple overlapping waveforms on the screen. You have to scroll horizontally or rescale to get rid of the excessive waveforms. Note that I don't have any persistence option enabled.
This issue can also occur when using normal mode plus single shot. This is especially annoying because it's not always obvious that you have multiple overlapping waveforms...
..................
I think Siglent has such a function, with Fast and Slow Acquisition, but I know that only from reading here in the forum.
...............
That could be a hardware defect. How about going back to the company that did the calibration and let them deal with the issue? They seem to have broken your scope.Yep. Looks like they messed something up for sure.
The company that did the calibration can't repair or probably it's better to say that don't want to repair and give support. I'm angry about that, as I sent a working oscilloscope and I received a broken one >:(
The company that did the calibration can't repair or probably it's better to say that don't want to repair and give support. I'm angry about that, as I sent a working oscilloscope and I received a broken one >:(
The company that did the calibration can't repair or probably it's better to say that don't want to repair and give support. I'm angry about that, as I sent a working oscilloscope and I received a broken one >:(
You paid and have a receipt, right? If so, you're good to go. If not, then not much support.
Better get into the fine print then of who is responsible for the shipping and who is liable for shipping damages. It is time for you to seek legal advice about what your rights are here.The company that did the calibration can't repair or probably it's better to say that don't want to repair and give support. I'm angry about that, as I sent a working oscilloscope and I received a broken one >:(
You paid and have a receipt, right? If so, you're good to go. If not, then not much support.
Of course I have, but the company refuses to repair it, as they said that it was probably damaged during the shipping or delivery
Better get into the fine print then of who is responsible for the shipping and who is liable for shipping damages. It is time for you to seek legal advice about what your rights are here.
Service manual
Describes the performance test for checking the rated specifications, module replace-
ment and repair, firmware update, troubleshooting and fault elimination, and contains
mechanical drawings and spare part lists. The service manual is available for regis-
tered users on the global Rohde & Schwarz information system (GLORIS, https://
gloris.rohde-schwarz.com).
Better get into the fine print then of who is responsible for the shipping and who is liable for shipping damages. It is time for you to seek legal advice about what your rights are here.
I have checked with my colleague who had in charge the calibration: oscilloscope and other non electronic instruments have been sent to a company (A) for calibration. This company (A) sent the oscilloscope to another company (B) for calibration and a certificate was issued. Then the oscilloscope was sent back to company (A) and then back to me.
I have found the issue after about 1.5 months after the calibration as I don't use it everyday and now, from what I saw with your help, I can probably say that it was because I only used one channel.
So what they are saying is that it was damaged during the delivery or that I have used anda damaged (without any proof) and so they are not responsible for that. I will check with the purchasing office, but probably a lawyer and all the bureaucracy around is more expensive than an ex-demo.
According to the user manual:QuoteService manual
Describes the performance test for checking the rated specifications, module replace-
ment and repair, firmware update, troubleshooting and fault elimination, and contains
mechanical drawings and spare part lists. The service manual is available for regis-
tered users on the global Rohde & Schwarz information system (GLORIS, https://
gloris.rohde-schwarz.com).
Do you know if the service manuals are available for end users too or only for some labs/services?
I wouldn't go lawyer path. They will be more expensive than scope in just few hours.
Just get the "new" demo one and get insurance for it this time.
I wouldn't go lawyer path. They will be more expensive than scope in just few hours.
Just get the "new" demo one and get insurance for it this time.
A lawyer will probably cost a bit, but for me it's more about penalizing bad business behavior than maximum profit. Consulting on whether you have a leg to stand on will be a few hundred at most.
Better get into the fine print then of who is responsible for the shipping and who is liable for shipping damages. It is time for you to seek legal advice about what your rights are here.
I have checked with my colleague who had in charge the calibration: oscilloscope and other non electronic instruments have been sent to a company (A) for calibration. This company (A) sent the oscilloscope to another company (B) for calibration and a certificate was issued. Then the oscilloscope was sent back to company (A) and then back to me.
I have found the issue after about 1.5 months after the calibration as I don't use it everyday and now, from what I saw with your help, I can probably say that it was because I only used one channel.
So what they are saying is that it was damaged during the delivery or that I have used anda damaged (without any proof) and so they are not responsible for that. I will check with the purchasing office, but probably a lawyer and all the bureaucracy around is more expensive than an ex-demo.
According to the user manual:QuoteService manual
Describes the performance test for checking the rated specifications, module replace-
ment and repair, firmware update, troubleshooting and fault elimination, and contains
mechanical drawings and spare part lists. The service manual is available for regis-
tered users on the global Rohde & Schwarz information system (GLORIS, https://
gloris.rohde-schwarz.com).
Do you know if the service manuals are available for end users too or only for some labs/services?
Is this random "noise" looking same on both CH1 and CH2? If it does, than it cannot be analog front end. It must be with ADC or after..
Well, that particular defect might not have to do anything with the calibration. Maybe vibration in transport exacerbated the problem, but probably it is manufacturing defect. If scope has no visible signs of mechanical damage, electronics could not be damaged in this way by cal facility. There are many occasions that scopes fall of the desk, are visibly completely broken but power up just fine and work. There was a guy here on EEVBLOG that repaired a Keysight 3000A scope that had car run over it in a parking. He had problems finding pieces of the case, but scope worked fine.
Problem is most likely in ADC for those CH or in acquisition data pump/memory part for that ADC.
It is either IC defect (bonding defect for instance) or soldering..
If warranty is not there, careful disassembly and testing with cold/hot air or gentle tapping around the board might reveal
location. In which case if it is soldering, it might be fixed by reflow.
I wouldn't go lawyer path. They will be more expensive than scope in just few hours.
Just get the "new" demo one and get insurance for it this time.
I don't know if R&S has extended warranty maintenance contracts like Keysight.
With Keysight they are actually good deal. Maybe ask them.
Once you have replacement working scope, you might try repair old one. If you succeed, you have another one.
But you would need to send it to calibration again to verify it's working OK. Or just perform performance verification yourself if you have equipment.
I will check tomorrow at the office.
I had the same idea, get a replacement, then try to repair the broken one I have and in case I succeed ask for a recalibration at R&S. I hate to throw away money even if my company pays
I wouldn't go lawyer path. They will be more expensive than scope in just few hours.
Just get the "new" demo one and get insurance for it this time.
A lawyer will probably cost a bit, but for me it's more about penalizing bad business behavior than maximum profit. Consulting on whether you have a leg to stand on will be a few hundred at most.
Nature of defect to me point more likely of a manufacturing defect by R&S.
There is no proof that calibration facility did anything wrong.
You cannot damage ADC or circuits after it simply from the outside.
It was simply spotted few months after calibration and presumed it was because of that.
It can be coincidence.
Maybe, if the scope was previously run in the lab that has high temperature variations during the day or if it was carried around on daily basis and exposed to vibration regularly, it might have broken down during warranty...
We can't know.
I had an RTB arrive recently and just today had the opportunity to grab its cal cert for record keeping. I was a bit surprised that it was calibrated around 650 days before my order was placed. I have no cause for any actual concern (so far, at least).Without a valid/current Cal cert I hope you got a nice discount on the list price.
It was interesting to see what they use for the RTB (plain-old factory) cal process:
- R&S NRP-Z91 power sensor
- Keithley 2601A System SourceMeter
- a trusty 34401A
I'd guess they dogfood the NGUs these days in the plant's cal lab...
To have it valid you have to make it sure that the scope is calibrated from a lab totally independent from you(your work) and from the manufacturer.Says who ?
Question is what is a valid cal cert...That doesn't sound plausible to me at all. For as long as the calibration result is traceable to a standard and the lab has been accredited, the calibration is legally valid. Big test equipment manufacturers typically have their own accredited calibration labs. Take a look at Keysight for example: https://www.keysight.com/nl/en/products/services/calibration-services/iso-iec-17025-accreditation.html (https://www.keysight.com/nl/en/products/services/calibration-services/iso-iec-17025-accreditation.html) Personally I strongly prefer to send my equipment to the manufacturer for calibration IF they have an accredited calibration lab. They know their own equipment best and likely have the tools to do the calibration most efficiently.
The fore-printed one sheet of paper from siglent for example surely not.
To have it valid you have to make it sure that the scope is calibrated from a lab totally independend from you(your work) and from the manufacturer.
See above. It is not that simple. The way the calibrations are performed (procedures) also need to be verified by an external party. Siglent makes no mention of being actually accredited to perform calibrations properly.To have it valid you have to make it sure that the scope is calibrated from a lab totally independent from you(your work) and from the manufacturer.Says who ?
If all instruments used to verify accuracy meet or better the factory Cal instrument spec and they are within their Cal period then what is the problem ?
Yes of course, an accredited Cal lab that most companies that make test equipment and provide an instrument Cal sheet already are.Question is what is a valid cal cert...That doesn't sound plausible to me at all. For as long as the calibration result is traceable to a standard and the lab has been accredited, the calibration is valid. Test equipment manufacturers typically have their own accredited calibration labs. Take a look at Keysight for example: https://www.keysight.com/nl/en/products/services/calibration-services/iso-iec-17025-accreditation.html (https://www.keysight.com/nl/en/products/services/calibration-services/iso-iec-17025-accreditation.html)
The fore-printed one sheet of paper from siglent for example surely not.
To have it valid you have to make it sure that the scope is calibrated from a lab totally independend from you(your work) and from the manufacturer.See above. It is not that simple.To have it valid you have to make it sure that the scope is calibrated from a lab totally independent from you(your work) and from the manufacturer.Says who ?
If all instruments used to verify accuracy meet or better the factory Cal instrument spec and they are within their Cal period then what is the problem ?
I had an RTB arrive recently and just today had the opportunity to grab its cal cert for record keeping. I was a bit surprised that it was calibrated around 650 days before my order was placed. I have no cause for any actual concern (so far, at least).
It was interesting to see what they use for the RTB (plain-old factory) cal process:
- R&S NRP-Z91 power sensor
- Keithley 2601A System SourceMeter
- a trusty 34401A
I'd guess they dogfood the NGUs these days in the plant's cal lab...
Personally I strongly prefer to send my equipment to the manufacturer for calibration IF they have an accredited calibration lab. They know their own equipment best and likely have the tools to do the calibration most efficiently.
Says who ?
If all instruments used to verify accuracy meet or better the factory Cal instrument spec and they are within their Cal period then what is the problem ?
Long shot, but might anyone be able to confirm the SoC in the RTB2000? I'm guessing i.MX 8 (biased by familiarity, for sure), or a less familiar Altera/Intel offering like the Arria or Stratix...
There are new versions of the manuals.
Can You hear about coming out for about 2 weeks +/- realese a new generation of scope on R&S
Hmmm...You might be well advised to study this thread:
Looking for a scope now.
Was looking on the R&S side and I'm tempted by going all in for the RTB2004 Full package at 4.300€
Offer ends 30 september.
Will I wait for the release news in 10 hours? :P :o
Hmmm...I have a feeling that the new R&S scope is going to be aimed at the higher end market. Probably above their RTA4000. Likely several GHz of bandwidth with tens of Gs/s.
Looking for a scope now.
Was looking on the R&S side and I'm tempted by going all in for the RTB2004 Full package at 4.300€
Offer ends 30 september.
Will I wait for the release news in 10 hours? :P :o
I have a feeling that the new R&S scope is going to be aimed at the higher end market. Probably above their RTA4000. Likely several GHz of bandwidth with tens of Gs/s.
Looking forward to that picture... 8)I have a feeling that the new R&S scope is going to be aimed at the higher end market. Probably above their RTA4000. Likely several GHz of bandwidth with tens of Gs/s.
In about 6 hours I can post a picture of the one on my desk .... :)
Looking forward to that picture... 8)I have a feeling that the new R&S scope is going to be aimed at the higher end market. Probably above their RTA4000. Likely several GHz of bandwidth with tens of Gs/s.
In about 6 hours I can post a picture of the one on my desk .... :)
Sweeet! 4M wfm/s, 40k FFT/s, lively updates with deep memory... I love the focus on speed, it makes a scope so much more pleasant to use in every situation.
Does "independent settings" mean what it does on the current generation RTO, where adjusting span/rbw/etc translates into a settings adjustment on FFTs of the time domain acquisition data, or does it imply a completely separate path where I could, say, have a 902-928MHz FFT open at the same time as an 18 bit low bandwidth time domain measurement?
The short answer is that you configure spectrum parameters similar to the way you would on a spec an: center, span, RBW. However, these parameters can be changed without affecting the time domain representation of the signal. In other words, spectrum settings are independent of time domain settings, but the two domains are still correlated.
Can You hear about coming out for about 2 weeks +/- realese a new generation of scope on R&S
Yep, just two weeks away!
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/products/test-and-measurement/oscilloscopes/promotion/next-generation_255909.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/products/test-and-measurement/oscilloscopes/promotion/next-generation_255909.html)
I have one here in my office right now (and it's very nice) but I can't share anything about it until launch. :)
Dear forum.You have to adjust your probes. See the manual for the procedure.
Sorry, I'm writing with google translate.
RTB2002 70Mhz base scope bad square signal representation in 200mV/div and higher positions.
100mV/div and lower is good, but not perfect either.
A square signal is definitely good, with several generators,
also examined with other scopes. I think it's a divisive problem in these jobs.
Running self alignment, it won't be good.
Can they all be like this, or is it a unique error?
Dear forum.
Sorry, I'm writing with google translate.
RTB2002 70Mhz base scope bad square signal representation in 200mV/div and higher positions.
100mV/div and lower is good, but not perfect either.
A square signal is definitely good, with several generators,
also examined with other scopes. I think it's a divisive problem in these jobs.
Running self alignment, it won't be good.
Can they all be like this, or is it a unique error?
Thanks.
It seems to me that the user interface is a – significant – further development of that in the RTB2, RTM3 and RTA4 series, which I really like. And which allows the instrument to startup in mere seconds, talking of speed. (I might be wrong, though.).
Here are two undocumented SCPI commands that may be helpful.
Returns the times for the start and stop of the current acquisition. Also works in single mode.
PeterCode: [Select]:ACQuire:TIME:STARt?
:ACQuire:TIME:STOP?
e.g.
:ACQ:TIME:STAR?;STOP?
15,52,6;15,52,21
What I should do with this "Code"?
Distortion is mostly visible with 1kHz square wave, so for most measurements -and the fact that one now knows the problem- it isn't a real problem at all.
It's a hardware problem, so Firmware won't fix it.
I will keep it. It´s a good scope with great features.Thx, I suspect you are good in electronics, very good, having wide knowlage.
As I know the limitation, I will not wonder whats going on once I measure 1kHz square in some future scenario.
99.9% of time one measures somthing totally different or amplitude does not play big role, but general waveform or frequency or...
I will keep it. It´s a good scope with great features.
As I know the limitation, I will not wonder whats going on once I measure 1kHz square in some future scenario.
99.9% of time one measures somthing totally different or amplitude does not play big role, but general waveform or frequency or...
I got the RTB2k-COM4 for 2.5k€, which was great price. (Used but practically brand new).
About the step response: I´m bad at theory and math, so will that show up in any scenario ? I think I might do some tests to understand that better.
Results are measured between two channels. If they both have about the same error, it will cancel.Thanks, that's correct.
Went and checked all the channels on mine using the internal sig-gen, they don't look as bad as Dave's but there is definitely a change when the attenuator kicks in. In this case I grabbed a capture from each side of the range switch (~150mV, depends on the calibrated gain of each channel) using fine vertical gain adjust. Screenshot windows are due to me being impatient when capturing (they're confirming the previous screenshot).
I seem to recall this coming up for other scopes - was it Siglent that sent out repair kits to those brave enough to open their scopes up?
Distortion is mostly visible with 1kHz square wave, so for most measurements -and the fact that one now knows the problem- it isn't a real problem at all.Now it's important that you know that something like this occurs, and I don't think there is an oscilloscope that is perfect for everything, see what The Signal Path has a dozen, like not several dozen oscilloscopes and these are the selected TOP models such as R&S RTO2044, Tek MSO5 wich is great too and so on. I don't know about you, but apart from RTB2004-COM4, I have Tektronix MDO3054 full opt. with 3GHz SA, Keysight MSOX3104T, DPO2014, TDS3014, TDS784D. I think that apart from beginners, everyone who deals with electronics for serious earnings has this honey, because even if it has accumulated over the years. It is also important to know what the oscilloscope has, what strengths, for which measurements is suitable as gold, and which are better to perform, for example with Keysight. End of pointless issue i think. Knowledge gives a lot to my friend capt_bullshit;) Knowledge is the key power.
it means that Rohde&Schwarz, know about it from the past and correct problem IN RTM Series.
Do You have RTM3000? Or RTB2004-COM4? Or mayby higher model of R&S scope.it means that Rohde&Schwarz, know about it from the past and correct problem IN RTM Series.
I'm sure this is known for a very long time, maybe since the very first square wave was fed into an oscilloscope.
They probably don't see it as something that needs to be "corrected", just minimized.
Correcting it 100% might be very expensive to do.
Do You have RTM3000? Or RTB2004-COM4? Or mayby higher model of R&S scope.it means that Rohde&Schwarz, know about it from the past and correct problem IN RTM Series.
I'm sure this is known for a very long time, maybe since the very first square wave was fed into an oscilloscope.
They probably don't see it as something that needs to be "corrected", just minimized.
Correcting it 100% might be very expensive to do.
I am in love with Rohde&Schwarz. Dreaming about RTE1024. New models like RTO6 or MXO4 in my opinion lost the impression look like very good etremly high material using RTM2000, RTE1000, RTO1000, RTO2000 and the best RTP which is probably looking older, today trend nevermind if you have tek or keysight or r&s, they will looks the same only logo, and buttons. We had one RTP at work, no RTO6, but RTP has hardware real-time exellent top spectrum anylaser, and can work like MDO4000, or in any possible configuration. For me RTE will be the scope for 10 years. But now I use mix of RTB2004-COM4 + MDO3054 full opt. + 3GHz SA. MDO is slowly, fft in it don;t use, but has Power Anylasis, ADVANCED MATH means that you can create any formula, Have editor in AWG, SA, FastAg with palletes is wrong make, RTB gives me possibility to set color separatly of course the color is not only change color, it is enable color gradation of waveform like false colors with do job. RTB is fast, has user friendly GUI, fantastic multi touch screen of 10 inches, both have 10M. FFT in RTB is great, not everybody knows, that, if you set e.g. Waveform palette false colors, the FFT also will be like in RTM3000, RTE1000. Pattern generator is very useful for me. Has some filters the RTB? I hav HMO1002 now RTC01002 lowest scope in R&S, and it has filters. But on the other hand RTB2004 does cost much more less then RTM3000-COM4. Limitations are normal :)
Do You have RTM3000? Or RTB2004-COM4? Or mayby higher model of R&S scope.
I don't think this issue got corrected in the RTM and higher class devices; these likely use a more sophisticated design. I do find it odd though that nobody else stumbled onto this issue until now. Maybe most people just compensated their probes but never bothered to connect a function generator. All in all I'd be interested in an amplitude versus frequency plot to see what the frequency response of the RTB2004 looks like.it means that Rohde&Schwarz, know about it from the past and correct problem IN RTM Series.
I'm sure this is known for a very long time, maybe since the very first square wave was fed into an oscilloscope.
So I get the impression reading through this thread a bit that the R&S RTB200X scopes offer less base functionality than the Siglent SDS200X Plus scope and about twice (or more) the price? Considering the problems this series has, why would someone buy one of these today? To get a Rohde & Schwarz label? :-DD
(just being cheeky)
All in all I'd be interested in an amplitude versus frequency plot to see what the frequency response of the RTB2004 looks like.I don't know if is the best setup for a DUT, :) but with a 330 ohm resistor between IN and OUT, here is what I get (attached). Amplitude with green.
Do You have RTM3000? Or RTB2004-COM4? Or mayby higher model of R&S scope.it means that Rohde&Schwarz, know about it from the past and correct problem IN RTM Series.
I'm sure this is known for a very long time, maybe since the very first square wave was fed into an oscilloscope.
They probably don't see it as something that needs to be "corrected", just minimized.
Correcting it 100% might be very expensive to do.
I am in love with Rohde&Schwarz. Dreaming about RTE1024. New models like RTO6 or MXO4 in my opinion lost the impression look like very good etremly high material using RTM2000, RTE1000, RTO1000, RTO2000 and the best RTP which is probably looking older, today trend nevermind if you have tek or keysight or r&s, they will looks the same only logo, and buttons. We had one RTP at work, no RTO6, but RTP has hardware real-time exellent top spectrum anylaser, and can work like MDO4000, or in any possible configuration. For me RTE will be the scope for 10 years. But now I use mix of RTB2004-COM4 + MDO3054 full opt. + 3GHz SA. MDO is slowly, fft in it don;t use, but has Power Anylasis, ADVANCED MATH means that you can create any formula, Have editor in AWG, SA, FastAg with palletes is wrong make, RTB gives me possibility to set color separatly of course the color is not only change color, it is enable color gradation of waveform like false colors with do job. RTB is fast, has user friendly GUI, fantastic multi touch screen of 10 inches, both have 10M. FFT in RTB is great, not everybody knows, that, if you set e.g. Waveform palette false colors, the FFT also will be like in RTM3000, RTE1000. Pattern generator is very useful for me. Has some filters the RTB? I hav HMO1002 now RTC01002 lowest scope in R&S, and it has filters. But on the other hand RTB2004 does cost much more less then RTM3000-COM4. Limitations are normal :)
LOL.... :-DD
So I get the impression reading through this thread a bit that the R&S RTB200X scopes offer less base functionality than the Siglent SDS200X Plus scope and about twice (or more) the price? Considering the problems this series has, why would someone buy one of these today? To get a Rohde & Schwarz label? :-DDSiglent has advantages and disadvantages as well as rigol HD. This issue is by no means a disqualifying tragedy. I can write the same about you, that you buy Siglent for the logo, maybe even the supplier added you a T-shirt "Siglent SDS2000 Plus the best oscilloscope of all time." options and features, has a exelllent performance "I have RTE1104 as a business oscilloscope at work, although it happens that I work on Keysgiht or Tektronix. In my opinion, and I have bought a new RTB2004-COM4 at a bargain price for 2 months and I am very pleased , it works perfectly in the home electronics studio I have, it complements MDO3054. Very good combination, I recommend it. You probably did not work on RTB, but a great expert. You are satisfied with Siglent SDS 2000x Plus or HD whatever, I respect it and I do not mock others people who, when buying, made a choice, eg Rigola HD, etc. I consider the subject finished.
(just being cheeky)
Do You have RTM3000? Or RTB2004-COM4? Or mayby higher model of R&S scope.it means that Rohde&Schwarz, know about it from the past and correct problem IN RTM Series.
I'm sure this is known for a very long time, maybe since the very first square wave was fed into an oscilloscope.
They probably don't see it as something that needs to be "corrected", just minimized.
Correcting it 100% might be very expensive to do.
I am in love with Rohde&Schwarz. Dreaming about RTE1024. New models like RTO6 or MXO4 in my opinion lost the impression look like very good etremly high material using RTM2000, RTE1000, RTO1000, RTO2000 and the best RTP which is probably looking older, today trend nevermind if you have tek or keysight or r&s, they will looks the same only logo, and buttons. We had one RTP at work, no RTO6, but RTP has hardware real-time exellent top spectrum anylaser, and can work like MDO4000, or in any possible configuration. For me RTE will be the scope for 10 years. But now I use mix of RTB2004-COM4 + MDO3054 full opt. + 3GHz SA. MDO is slowly, fft in it don;t use, but has Power Anylasis, ADVANCED MATH means that you can create any formula, Have editor in AWG, SA, FastAg with palletes is wrong make, RTB gives me possibility to set color separatly of course the color is not only change color, it is enable color gradation of waveform like false colors with do job. RTB is fast, has user friendly GUI, fantastic multi touch screen of 10 inches, both have 10M. FFT in RTB is great, not everybody knows, that, if you set e.g. Waveform palette false colors, the FFT also will be like in RTM3000, RTE1000. Pattern generator is very useful for me. Has some filters the RTB? I hav HMO1002 now RTC01002 lowest scope in R&S, and it has filters. But on the other hand RTB2004 does cost much more less then RTM3000-COM4. Limitations are normal :)
LOL.... :-DD
The post was written in a sarcastic accent. An adult person should learn about sarcasm, only children are incapable of detecting sarcasm and take such a text seriously. It's not good with you buddy. : D
Do You have RTM3000? Or RTB2004-COM4? Or mayby higher model of R&S scope.it means that Rohde&Schwarz, know about it from the past and correct problem IN RTM Series.
I'm sure this is known for a very long time, maybe since the very first square wave was fed into an oscilloscope.
They probably don't see it as something that needs to be "corrected", just minimized.
Correcting it 100% might be very expensive to do.
I am in love with Rohde&Schwarz. Dreaming about RTE1024. New models like RTO6 or MXO4 in my opinion lost the impression look like very good etremly high material using RTM2000, RTE1000, RTO1000, RTO2000 and the best RTP which is probably looking older, today trend nevermind if you have tek or keysight or r&s, they will looks the same only logo, and buttons. We had one RTP at work, no RTO6, but RTP has hardware real-time exellent top spectrum anylaser, and can work like MDO4000, or in any possible configuration. For me RTE will be the scope for 10 years. But now I use mix of RTB2004-COM4 + MDO3054 full opt. + 3GHz SA. MDO is slowly, fft in it don;t use, but has Power Anylasis, ADVANCED MATH means that you can create any formula, Have editor in AWG, SA, FastAg with palletes is wrong make, RTB gives me possibility to set color separatly of course the color is not only change color, it is enable color gradation of waveform like false colors with do job. RTB is fast, has user friendly GUI, fantastic multi touch screen of 10 inches, both have 10M. FFT in RTB is great, not everybody knows, that, if you set e.g. Waveform palette false colors, the FFT also will be like in RTM3000, RTE1000. Pattern generator is very useful for me. Has some filters the RTB? I hav HMO1002 now RTC01002 lowest scope in R&S, and it has filters. But on the other hand RTB2004 does cost much more less then RTM3000-COM4. Limitations are normal :)
LOL.... :-DD
The post was written in a sarcastic accent. An adult person should learn about sarcasm, only children are incapable of detecting sarcasm and take such a text seriously. It's not good with you buddy. : D
And I thought it was meant to be humorous... Which is not in contradiction to being sarcastic at the same time, mind you ...
Just to make sure which part is sarcastic:
- you love R&S so much you dream about it?
- Your opinion on scopes you mentioned..?
See, it is not so clear... :-DD
Thank you for your opinion about my mental health... Is as as valid and opinionated as your opinions on scopes.. But thanks anyways.. Good intentions are always welcomed even when a bit misdirected.. And being an adult person is overrated.... Kids have much more fun..
Okay, make fun of me, make fun of me. I'm sorry for this statement, it's just that your previous post brings nothing to the topic except that it may be upsetting to some users. Maybe SDS2000X Plus is better than RTB2004-COM4, I don't know, it's hard for me to be objective and honest here, because I don't have or have access to SDS 2000X Plus. I did not choose Rohde & Schwarc for the emblem, only because I like these oscilloscopes and their design, after working on RTE I knew that the manufacturer focuses on the best materials and electronic components which translates into quality, the oscilloscope is well thought out, I also have HMO1002. interesting and useful solutions like Virtual Screen. I assume that this sensational Siglent 2000X HD in a full option configuration costs much more than the RTB. Since he is so cool. Everyone has a budget, a different one will buy something for $ 1500, another one for $ 6000- & 7000, and another one for $ 25000. There is no point in arguing. Apart from R&S I have a Tektronix which is also great, Siglent also but only SDS 1104X-E, in my opinion a very good oscilloscope. I'm sorry if I offended you, What's wrong is not me.
I greet you,
MichTRONIC / neurosurg
User configurable colors are useful and other scopes have it too.
Ok my firend It's ok. RTM3000 spectrum also is not perfect, Far away from my mayby raw but exellent SA 3GHz not software enchenced, but fully hardware like second device in other box, but in MDO3000 it uses screen, knobs, buttons from front of an oscilloscope, perfectly is MDO4000, I didn;t see in R&S brochure that RTM3000 or RTA4000 which is practicly the same as RTM3000 (exist vid fron R&S about that), but backing to clue on catalog when is section RTM3000 is only HD emblemat, since RTE1000 is HD mode and Multi-domain like in Tektronix MDO4000 which as you knoq are powerful features. No I have from work Tektronix Series 5, it is sad that the Tektronix company left SA only in Tektroni MDO34 Serier3, but not me should judgee it.Okay, make fun of me, make fun of me. I'm sorry for this statement, it's just that your previous post brings nothing to the topic except that it may be upsetting to some users. Maybe SDS2000X Plus is better than RTB2004-COM4, I don't know, it's hard for me to be objective and honest here, because I don't have or have access to SDS 2000X Plus. I did not choose Rohde & Schwarc for the emblem, only because I like these oscilloscopes and their design, after working on RTE I knew that the manufacturer focuses on the best materials and electronic components which translates into quality, the oscilloscope is well thought out, I also have HMO1002. interesting and useful solutions like Virtual Screen. I assume that this sensational Siglent 2000X HD in a full option configuration costs much more than the RTB. Since he is so cool. Everyone has a budget, a different one will buy something for $ 1500, another one for $ 6000- & 7000, and another one for $ 25000. There is no point in arguing. Apart from R&S I have a Tektronix which is also great, Siglent also but only SDS 1104X-E, in my opinion a very good oscilloscope. I'm sorry if I offended you, What's wrong is not me.
I greet you,
MichTRONIC / neurosurg
I was jesting a little but wasn't making fun of you, as a person.
If you got offended I am sorry too. It seems I have problem with sarcasm, you have problem detecting humor.. We are not perfect..It's only human. Important thing is to stay civilized and work out the differences..
Just a note, one might argue that your post also added nothing useful to the topic. That is why a slight tangents are allowed in discussion.
RTB2000 is similar and was made to look alike 3000/4000 series but have seriously less capability. FFT on RTB2000 is also not perfect (there is a separate topic discussing just that) and not same as RTM3000 that has spectrum option.
User configurable colors are useful and other scopes have it too. One thing I really like on R&S is user configurable palette for color grading. Especially useful is reverse palette, that shows rare signals most brightly.... I wish more scopes had that feature..
R&S higher end devices are excellent but expensive. Budget always exists, but it is how much you get for your money is what changes all the time... That is why I don't believe in blind brand loyalty.
And yes, you were wrong a bit. And so was I. We both apologized.
I will not pollute this thread anymore with this detour. If you feel anything is unresolved, please let's continue with PM.
Sincerely, all the best.
Sinisa
Mayby you mentioned that, is from RTE1000 and models up :DQuoteUser configurable colors are useful and other scopes have it too.
Yepp, lecroy and siglent for example - rigol not (MSO5000) and this was a visual horror for me.
Four mathchannels - And everyone got the same colour...
On siglent/lecroy you can define the colour of all traces(zoom, math, all channels, and so on) in a "free" manner (colour palette).% too?
From a Siglent webpage (easier to find than the screenshots posted before)On siglent/lecroy you can define the colour of all traces(zoom, math, all channels, and so on) in a "free" manner (colour palette).% too?
The color define is well the same wide.:)
Looking at the MXO 4 options I see there is a hardware option for "Mixed signal option for R&S®MXO4" with the description "Mixed signal, for R&S®MXO4 oscilloscopes, 16 channels, 5Gsa/s (hardware option)"No. The RT-ZL03 uses a low cost ribbon cable + connector while the higher end oscilloscopes use a wide HDMI connector.
Upon further googling it appears this package is just two 8 channel logic probes, do you all think that the cheaper RT-ZL03 probes could be used instead of dropping 3,000 dollars for this option?
Looking at the MXO 4 options I see there is a hardware option for "Mixed signal option for R&S®MXO4" with the description "Mixed signal, for R&S®MXO4 oscilloscopes, 16 channels, 5Gsa/s (hardware option)"
Upon further googling it appears this package is just two 8 channel logic probes, do you all think that the cheaper RT-ZL03 probes could be used instead of dropping 3,000 dollars for this option?
From a Siglent webpage (easier to find than the screenshots posted before)On siglent/lecroy you can define the colour of all traces(zoom, math, all channels, and so on) in a "free" manner (colour palette).% too?
The color define is well the same wide.:)
(https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/overview2.png)
Looking at the MXO 4 options I see there is a hardware option for "Mixed signal option for R&S®MXO4" with the description "Mixed signal, for R&S®MXO4 oscilloscopes, 16 channels, 5Gsa/s (hardware option)"No. The RT-ZL03 uses a low cost ribbon cable + connector while the higher end oscilloscopes use a wide HDMI connector.
Upon further googling it appears this package is just two 8 channel logic probes, do you all think that the cheaper RT-ZL03 probes could be used instead of dropping 3,000 dollars for this option?
Ah interesting thank you for the clarification! Really hoping there might be a full package promo on the horizon for the MXO4, my add ons cart has stacked up to a significant amount.
I now have my MXO4 in the lab ready for unboxing, much to the chagrin of the local HQ who don't have one ;D
I now have my MXO4 in the lab ready for unboxing, much to the chagrin of the local HQ who don't have one ;D
Only very special people get one of the first MXO4s :)
LOL - they're important too - but we wanted to make sure Dave would get one ASAP ;DI now have my MXO4 in the lab ready for unboxing, much to the chagrin of the local HQ who don't have one ;D
Only very special people get one of the first MXO4s :)
Good to know that people in Australia local HQ are not special... >:D
LOL - they're important too - but we wanted to make sure Dave would get one ASAP ;DI now have my MXO4 in the lab ready for unboxing, much to the chagrin of the local HQ who don't have one ;D
Only very special people get one of the first MXO4s :)
Good to know that people in Australia local HQ are not special... >:D
-Rich
You too :-+Take care Rich!!LOL - they're important too - but we wanted to make sure Dave would get one ASAP ;DI now have my MXO4 in the lab ready for unboxing, much to the chagrin of the local HQ who don't have one ;D
Only very special people get one of the first MXO4s :)
Good to know that people in Australia local HQ are not special... >:D
-Rich
Sinisa
Too many things (aka competitor's new babies) currently going on on EEVBLOG for R&S to spend time entertaining their AUS HQ people...I genuinely wish I could make things happen that fast :palm: - this has been in progress for some time.
I know, I know, but it was too good to pass up!! ( Sorry @pdenisowski, no hard feelings, I hope!)
Hmm, don't get Aussies or Kiwis started on support from overseas companies. It can be a very sensitive subject.LOL - they're important too - but we wanted to make sure Dave would get one ASAP ;DI now have my MXO4 in the lab ready for unboxing, much to the chagrin of the local HQ who don't have one ;D
Only very special people get one of the first MXO4s :)
Good to know that people in Australia local HQ are not special... >:D
I now have my MXO4 in the lab ready for unboxing, much to the chagrin of the local HQ who don't have one ;D
Only very special people get one of the first MXO4s :)
Rich there are rumors that the MXO4 is going to replace the RTE1000, is that true?Too many things (aka competitor's new babies) currently going on on EEVBLOG for R&S to spend time entertaining their AUS HQ people...I genuinely wish I could make things happen that fast :palm: - this has been in progress for some time.
-Rich
Hi Michael - The MXO 4 doesn’t replace the RTE. The RTE still does a number of things the MXO doesn’t (e.g. certain trigger/decodes, additional analysis, it's Windows-based, etc). But the RTE is one of our older platforms and as we’ve said all along, the MXO 4 is the “first of a new generation” of scopes ;DRich there are rumors that the MXO4 is going to replace the RTE1000, is that true?Too many things (aka competitor's new babies) currently going on on EEVBLOG for R&S to spend time entertaining their AUS HQ people...I genuinely wish I could make things happen that fast :palm: - this has been in progress for some time.
-Rich
Secondly, I have a request, I do not want to take up your time, but please direct me where I should ask for RTE loan for tests, I guess there will be no problem with that?
Dave mentioned in the post above that the RTB2000 is an old oscilloscope, I do not know where the campaign for this model is from, I am extremely happy with it, instead of buying RTM3004-COM4, I preferred to spend much more money on RTE1024 with full opt.
Thank you very much,
Yours sincerely,
Michael
"Another new killer scope in town"....Last one had it's lunch eaten by SDS2104X Plus. :P
Keep on dreaming... The user interface of the RTB2004 (and related models) alone is several levels better."Another new killer scope in town"....Last one had it's lunch eaten by SDS2104X
Keep on dreaming... The user interface of the RTB2004 (and related models) alone is several levels better."Another new killer scope in town"....Last one had it's lunch eaten by SDS2104X
Not just personal preference. It is about the configurability and feature set of the UI which makes the oscilloscope more efficient and effective to use. Like having hotkeys for functions you use commonly. Or things like on-screen annotations that can help documenting parts of a signal without needing to write oodles of text for a description and/or do image editing seperately. And let's not forget sizable windows. Overall the UI of the RTB2004 has been well designed and implemented. And that is just the UI aspect...Keep on dreaming... The user interface of the RTB2004 (and related models) alone is several levels better."Another new killer scope in town"....Last one had it's lunch eaten by SDS2104X
What does that even mean? RT2000 UI is nice, but it is also about personal preferences.
One fun nugget said here was that RTB2000 is "quite old platform". It has been 5 years now that it was released if I remember correctly. It took almost 2 years to stabilize featureset and debug. So in my mind this scope is reliable product for cca 3 years. Is this a "sign of times" of a short lived products like smartphones? I hope product lifecycles won't become as short as with consumer devices..Let's see what happens first. I can imagine though that R&S would like to update the RTB2004 to use the same logic probes. IMHO the current ribbon cable ones are a remnant of the Hameg days. Personally I'm not a fan of ribbon cables anyway; they are quite fragile.
Gentlemen, wouldn´t it be good to start a new thread instead using the RTB2000 thread for a different scope... ;)
Martin72)
Gentlemen, wouldn´t it be good to start a new thread instead using the RTB2000 thread for a different scope... ;)
Let's see what happens first. I can imagine though that R&S would like to update the RTB2004 to use the same logic probes. IMHO the current ribbon cable ones are a remnant of the Hameg days. Personally I'm not a fan of ribbon cables anyway; they are quite fragile.
Let's see what happens first. I can imagine though that R&S would like to update the RTB2004 to use the same logic probes. IMHO the current ribbon cable ones are a remnant of the Hameg days. Personally I'm not a fan of ribbon cables anyway; they are quite fragile.
I can't speak for the product line, but the only two scopes that use the ribbon cable connectors are the RTC and RTB -- all of our newer scopes use the HDMI-style probes.
Is it change something? I think that probes on RTB2000 send signals also without problems
I compare with friend with RTM.
This thread has gone on and on since 2017. Shouldn't the title change to "Re: scope nearing EOL from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004"
Is it change something? I think that probes on RTB2000 send signals also without problems
I compare with friend with RTM.
I've used the ribbon style cables extensively with my RTB and personally I've never had any issues with them. They're definitely a lot more robust than the cables that came with some of the PC/USB-based logic analyzers I have :)
I can check with the developers, but I think one advantage of the newer style is the scope-side connectors are physically smaller and take up less space on the front of the instrument. If you look at both styles (RT-ZL03 and RTZL04 - attached again) next to an MXO4, you'll see it would be tough to have two of the older-style connectors on the front panel.
Can You tell me with place is occupated by MXO4 is it better then RTO2000?, better then RTP084, or better than RTO6?This thread has gone on and on since 2017. Shouldn't the title change to "Re: scope nearing EOL from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004"
Absolutely not. I can assure you that the RTB is nowhere near EOL :)
So, the thing is: when I turn the logic signals on (or select one of them for triggering), then the noise I see on the analog channels goes up considerably (orders of magnitude). Both visually and in terms of measurement. And it also happens when I use low-sensitivity settings.
Probably the difference of Sample and HiRes mode. HiRes is not active with digital channels.
The good part is that your scope will get a free calibration at least...
> I had a very good experience with the help of Batronix for RTB2K scope as a private person.
I think this is true, because they ask me to send them the scope.
However it is a little bit sad, because I would bet that nothing is broken and it only needs
a calibration or some kind of brain washing.
Olaf
Does anyone know the actual contents of the COM4 and BNDL packages?
I think 4000Euro is the normal price for an RTB with all bells and whistles in Europe.
That means all options, 300Mhz, two logic probes and four ugly analog probes.
If I memorize it right it is also possible to buy it much cheaper if your are still a student
at university, because the are special education sales.
At conrad.ch the RTB2K-COM4 is CHF 3'438.25 (9% discount, normal price CHF 3'760.40)
I received my RTBK-COM4 package, and can confirm that it contains every possible option at the time of writing. Weird that Newark is selling the -BNDL package with that pricing.
I received my RTBK-COM4 package, and can confirm that it contains every possible option at the time of writing. Weird that Newark is selling the -BNDL package with that pricing.The R&S engineer I spoke to told me that if there was still -COM4 units at my reseller it would be wise to buy it before they have it, because the offer won't be available again. And he also admitted that the -9% discount (at the time, now -20%!) at my reseller is more appealing that what he could offer me with a demo unit directly from R&S.
That explains it. Maybe a Rohde&Schwarz engineer here (Rich, Paul?) could confirm that. And I was also told that the RTB2K is far from being EOL, which was what I was fearing...
I received my RTBK-COM4 package, and can confirm that it contains every possible option at the time of writing. Weird that Newark is selling the -BNDL package with that pricing.
I would bet that it is now out of the brain of every developer at R&S because more than one year without a new firmware still bugs that opens from time to time.
I would bet that it is now out of the brain of every developer at R&S because more than one year without a new firmware still
bugs that opens from time to time.
To be honest, I'm not sure what we could add to the RTB2000 and still keep it as an "entry level" oscilloscope -- it has a lot of features you won't find in some other "entry level" scopes -- but we're always very happy to get feedback :)
May I ask what are these bugs still unresolved?
An internal VT100 terminal. That would be very nice for software debuging. Poke yourMy memory may be wrong but isn't there some packet decoding mode? If you set newline to end of packet, then the decoding can show lines of text instead of single characters. But I could be wrong and mixing things up.
probe at one pin of the cpu and read all error immediately. No fiddling with USB-RS232 and
terminal program at your computer.
I wanted to use SCPI commands to detect when the High Resolution mode is really active. So when the display is white and not gray.
The three SCPI commands return the status for the HighRes mode:
:ACQ:HRES? -> AUTO
:ACQ:MEM? -> LIM
:CHAN:TYPE? -> HRES
But the values do not change, no matter if the display is white or gray. Maybe someone knows a way to determine the status?
The return of ':ACQ:MEM?' with 'LIM' for 'LIMited', is not documented. You can also send the value. Then the sample rate is reduced as with the HighRes mode, but without the HighRes mode being selected.
Peter
To be honest, I'm not sure what we could add to the RTB2000 and still keep it as an "entry level" oscilloscope -- it has a lot of features you won't find in some other "entry level" scopes -- but we're always very happy to get feedback :)
At first, I am working myself as a hardware developer at a huge measument company. So I have understanding that
things are at some time out of the brain of the developer!
[...]
Olaf
Hello @pdenisowski!
There is a chance to be introduced differentiate math function (DIFFF or d/dt) for RTB2K?
There are already many usefull math functions, such as recently introduced tracking of duty cycle for PWM signals, but for diff I can't find a function if I'm not missing something. It can be usefull to measure slew rate of an opamp.
Thank you!
Exists already, see "Derivative":
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/rtb_html_usermanual_en/Content/e5e51daffd6b42d3.htm (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/rtb_html_usermanual_en/Content/e5e51daffd6b42d3.htm)
Exists already, see "Derivative":
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/rtb_html_usermanual_en/Content/e5e51daffd6b42d3.htm (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/rtb_html_usermanual_en/Content/e5e51daffd6b42d3.htm)
Thank you! Indeed diff calculates discrete time derivative of the signal.
I already try this before but without any adjustment. Now after I change the unit (from % to V/s), increase the magnitude and set the aquisition to average it starting to look as what I search for.
Yep ... Looking to double check the results obtained with a Keysight 2K (using diff math function), I didn't think to check if the RTB has such direct measurement ... |O
Why don't you simply use slew rate measurement? It has it...
...
Yep ... Looking to double check the results obtained with a Keysight 2K (using diff math function), I didn't think to check if the RTB has such direct measurement ... |O
Why don't you simply use slew rate measurement? It has it...
...
I found the RTM3000 service manual, but not the RTB2000 (https://gloris.rohde-schwarz.com/file/RTM3000_RTA4000_ServiceManual_en_03.pdf). I sent a request to R&S.
Hello KaneTW,
Have you found the service manual?
I still have the damaged RTB2004 and would like to attempt a repair if any documentation is availableI found the RTM3000 service manual, but not the RTB2000 (https://gloris.rohde-schwarz.com/file/RTM3000_RTA4000_ServiceManual_en_03.pdf). I sent a request to R&S.
Hello KaneTW,
Have you found the service manual?
I still have the damaged RTB2004 and would like to attempt a repair if any documentation is available
I don't think so. I'll check Gloris later again.
After a lengthy conversation with the tech at R&S I found out they don't have access to schematics, only the service dept. does. Some newly implemented edict from Germany apparently.
Maybe someone should tell them you can get a Rigol 12 bit resolution scope for three hundred bucks now!
I can see things in the waveforms I can't see on my RTB.
Thanks for the info.Problems like these are easy enough to find without a schematic as front panel controls are typically constructed as an x/y matrix using diodes and switches. Just look at the signals to check the logic levels; you can use the oscilloscope itself to test this. It could be something simple like a bad connection or bad solder joint on a diode or something like that. Maybe the problem is already fixed by disconnecting the cable to the front panel and connecting it properly again. I have fixed these kind of problems without having schematics several times.
I tested the encoder, it's pretty basic - push the button you either get an open or a short on the internal switch which I do get. If it's a board problem it would be relatively easy to find if I had the schematic. I guess I could look at it under my stereoscope and see if there's a bad solder point on an FPGA or something, I doubt an ASICs or an FPGA went bad but you never know.
Unfortunately I can't find out because your tech dept. doesn't even have basic schematics that trouble shoot down to board level. It's always been that way? Maybe you shouldn't have told me that, I think end users should have the right to repair with schematics and access to parts, it's not a good omen that your tech dept. doesn't even have schematics.
So they referred me to your service dept. and it might as well have been a robot, I get it you want me to send my scope in for repair, what's that going to cost? I lost the connection and she never called back or emailed me with costs. I get it again, we're small potatoes.
They worked in a snow storm because they know they're in trouble and have to find solutions, they got upstaged again by China. Maybe they should invite me to their board meeting, I'll be happy to tell them how the bear went through the buckwheat.
So tell me why I shouldn't get a bigger Rigol for my next scope? That's rhetorical..... are you sure you want to have this conversation?
The front board has it's own firmware - I'd be very confident that the IC reading the inputs is on that board not another.
In the manual there is a note about the divider factor of the probe with AC coupling. Why should the voltage be different than with DC coupling? Is there an explanation for this?
Peter
User Manual v11 - Page 50
4.1 Connecting probes and displaying a signal
...
No attenuation of passive probes with AC coupling:
If AC coupling is set, the attenuation of passive probes has no effect, and voltage is applied to the instrument with factor 1:1. Observe the voltage limits, otherwise you can damage the instrument.
Edit:
Maybe the coupling capacitor is directly at the socket, even before the 1 megohm input resistor?
Hello,
with a divider probe you must use DC-coupling.
Since a coupling capacitor has an extremely high impedance at DC, practically the entire input voltage at the coupling capacitor drops at DC. This can be very unhealthy.
See the circuit in the picture Divider.png.
Best regards
egonotto
Unfortunately I can't find out because your tech dept. doesn't even have basic schematics that trouble shoot down to board level. It's always been that way? Maybe you shouldn't have told me that, I think end users should have the right to repair with schematics and access to parts, it's not a good omen that your tech dept. doesn't even have schematics.
Just curious: have you tried getting schematics for current products from Rigol or other T&M instrument manufacturers? I would be very interested in seeing them.
Hello,
with a divider probe you must use DC-coupling.
Since a coupling capacitor has an extremely high impedance at DC, practically the entire input voltage at the coupling capacitor drops at DC. This can be very unhealthy.
See the circuit in the picture Divider.png.
Best regards
egonotto
I am afraid that it is more like this. So the input impedance the signal right after the probe can see is largely set by the 100k resistor.
But I think egonotto was talking about first probe you mentioned not the P6015A ...
Unfortunately I can't find out because your tech dept. doesn't even have basic schematics that trouble shoot down to board level. It's always been that way? Maybe you shouldn't have told me that, I think end users should have the right to repair with schematics and access to parts, it's not a good omen that your tech dept. doesn't even have schematics.
Just curious: have you tried getting schematics for current products from Rigol or other T&M instrument manufacturers? I would be very interested in seeing them.
So would I. I don't know of any scope manufacturer who has released schematics in probably the last 25 years.
Siglent for example do service manuals, which is fantastic, but there are no schematics:
https://siglentna.com/download/6149/?tmstv=1702895353 (https://siglentna.com/download/6149/?tmstv=1702895353)
First, he told me he was looking right at the schematic and wouldn't even tell me if the encoder connected to a chip on the same board.
I've been with R&S for over 15 years and it's always been that way: even service manuals don't necessarily have detailed, component level schematics (the RTB2000 service manual does not - I have it in front of me).
Okay, thanks for the clarification, I stand corrected but that doesn't change the fact that their tech dept. doesn't have schematics AND probably never has AND they don't have service manuals AND they won't even tell me if the encoder drives a chip on the same board AND they won't even sell me a part if it does!
...
There is simply nothing like an active fan controller, but apparently this is only possible above a certain price range.
Scope with "little processing power” that has real-time digital filters in math, unlike the “more powerful” SDS2000x+ which does not have them due to lack of processing power. ;D
... Fully loaded RTB2000 (full bundle) is 3600 € scope...
Best,
And it being simple is not even a bad thing. No need to have complexity if you don't need it. For some use scenarios simple is a plus, not a minus.
... Fully loaded RTB2000 (full bundle) is 3600 € scope...
Best,
Which 7200E? :)
RTB2K-COM2
P.S. Remarkable is that they have "student offers" which make this wise equipment accessible to a price comparable to chinese offers.
In fact, having both scopes (RTB2000 & SDS2000X+), I most often use the RTB, because its screen and user interface (responsiveness and thoughtfulness) are significantly better than SDS2000X+. And in 99.9% of cases its functionality is sufficient to complete the assigned tasks. How often does someone need 200 megapoints of memory? Or the most accurate FFT using 2M samples?
But if I need something that is not in the RTB, then the SDS2000X+ comes into play, which can do much more, but is not so convenient to use and has a laggy, unresponsive user interface (if you use hardware controls. There are no such problems when using touch screen).
The RTB2000 is quite an old, simple, but very thoughtful and very well made device. Although its price with a full package of options is very high compared to Chinese oscilloscopes, of course.
I'm use it often because:
- Start fast (9.9 s)
It depends a bit on what you are doing; I wouldn't call the RTB2004 simple. For embedded development the protocol decoding and integration of digital channels is super useful and well implemented.And it being simple is not even a bad thing. No need to have complexity if you don't need it. For some use scenarios simple is a plus, not a minus.
Despite having access to our entire scope portfolio, for several years I actually used an RTB for my everyday scope needs: it's small, quiet, and simple.
I now mostly use an MXO4 (in part because I'm developing content around it), but for basic "poking around and looking at signals," the RTB was more than sufficient.
And price vise, if you are going to compare, fair is to compare with other scopes price for price... Fully loaded RTB2000 (full bundle) is 3600 € scope...
Just a shame the UI is so sluggish, more so that the RTM is no better.And price vise, if you are going to compare, fair is to compare with other scopes price for price... Fully loaded RTB2000 (full bundle) is 3600 € scope...
I wonder what would happen if R&S slashed the price of the RTB2000 to entry level pricing?
They could probably do it given the NRE would be well and truly taken care of.
That would leave the RTC1000 flaping in the breeze of course, but still, it would be interesting.
As others have said, it's a very capable and nice scope.
I have RTB2002 for about 3 years and his 2 RT-ZP03 never show any sign of any leakage. They are perfectly dry. Maybe external causes? Proximity with some flowers, herbal decorations?
PMK PML712 are selling 315 Euro plus VAT each...
My warranty is past, that's my fault, but decided to call Rhode and Schwarz support to inquire about this. No one there had ever heard of this(came with RT-ZP03).