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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: Flinstone on March 13, 2017, 08:05:56 pm

Title: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Flinstone on March 13, 2017, 08:05:56 pm
Hello folks - R&S is launching a new MSOX game changer - killer scope - likely at Embedded World - Nurnberg 2017 in Germany

R&S already placed some info on their public site:
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/r/rtb_1/RTB_GettingStarted_en_02.pdf (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/r/rtb_1/RTB_GettingStarted_en_02.pdf)
datasheet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YxFoahKxQ0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YxFoahKxQ0)



First impressions are very positive, good screen, good interface and the little features like booting up is pretty quick.
The wavegen is powerful and as you'd expect from a scope with a 10 bit ADC, the FFT and measurements functions are impressive.

It comes with advanced features - rather low cost - it is a no brainer ...
pricing and further info:
http://be.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?pageSize=25&st=RTB2002&catalogId=15001&categoryId=700000027006&langId=32&storeId=10154 (http://be.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?pageSize=25&st=RTB2002&catalogId=15001&categoryId=700000027006&langId=32&storeId=10154)

More info can be found here:  https://www.scope-of-the-art.com/en/


Yabba Dabba Doo !

Flinstone
55 Cobblestone Road
Bedrock
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 13, 2017, 08:16:59 pm
Dead link.
I was promised one "before release" but they're cutting it a bit fine now...
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on March 13, 2017, 08:28:44 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=299111;image)
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 13, 2017, 08:31:11 pm
No separate Y controls  :--
But plenty of buttons :-+

Looks like the touch menus etc. are at the top of the screen, not the bottom.  Not ideal (screen obscured by hand, fatigue) but maybe configurable?
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Arjan Emm on March 13, 2017, 08:33:33 pm
Link works for me. Datasheet is 50 pages,  first 33 pages are safety instructions in multiple languages. You got to be kidding me...

Edit, All 50 pages are  just safety regulations really.
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 13, 2017, 08:36:28 pm
"rather low cost" .. looks like ~$3000 to me.

Anyone know what price range we are talking about here?
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 13, 2017, 08:44:12 pm
Dead link.
I was promised one "before release" but they're cutting it a bit fine now...
Hi Mike - I know some about the scopes going out for review (even outside the US).  There ended up being a mixup in shipping and it sounds like distributor stocking units were prioritized first (the blogger units should have gone first or in parallel at least).  My understanding is the blogger units should be going out this week (I got my fedex number today for the units I'm sending on).  I'll check on the status of yours and have them get in contact with you. 

In the meantime, if you have any questions, don't hesitate to PM me.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 13, 2017, 08:46:11 pm
Link works for me. Datasheet is 50 pages,  first 33 pages are safety instructions in multiple languages. You got to be kidding me...

Edit, All 50 pages are  just safety regulations really.
Link edited or site updated.

Safety info is pretty ridiculous - they could at least have deleted the irrelevant stuff about lasers, RF hazards etc.

2.5gsps bandwidth, so 250? 350? 500MHz ?

Ext trigger on a 4ch scope is unusual  - might very occasionally be useful on the non MSO version, especially if there is trig view.

And what;s with the (presumably) gold-plated BNCs...

Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 13, 2017, 08:47:04 pm
"rather low cost" .. looks like ~$3000 to me.

Anyone know what price range we are talking about here?
Significantly lower, but I'd better not post until it's the 14th my time  8)  I'll put up full pricing tomorrow (for the US) if folks would like.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 13, 2017, 08:49:58 pm
"rather low cost" .. looks like ~$3000 to me.

Anyone know what price range we are talking about here?
Significantly lower, but I'd better not post until it's the 14th my time  8)  I'll put up full pricing tomorrow (for the US) if folks would like.

-Rich

I'm excited  ;) Just recently saved up money for a new scope, who knows where they'll go.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 13, 2017, 08:58:31 pm
with gesture control ...
For some reason I'm reminded of Bob Widlar...  What would you want a scope to do in response to this gesture?
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZWtU43b__t4/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 13, 2017, 09:01:02 pm
"rather low cost" .. looks like ~$3000 to me.

Anyone know what price range we are talking about here?
Significantly lower,
"Entry cost" presumably.... Looks like at least logic and wavegen are options
Interesting the bandwidth is not printed on the front panel, so presumably some upgrade path like everyone else.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 13, 2017, 09:02:32 pm
So a $800 entry cost for the basic stripped down scope with 50 MHz and no options? Then $1000 for upgrades? I see where this is going.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Yansi on March 13, 2017, 09:04:15 pm
I don't see anything game changing there. Just another scope for snobs with gold BNCs. But I keep myself prepared.

It would be more gamechanging, if those chinese manufacturers could at least once produce a DSO with usable firmware rich of features - as their hardware is mostly decent, unlike the FW, which always kills it.
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 13, 2017, 09:05:16 pm
No separate Y controls  :--
But plenty of buttons :-+

Looks like the touch menus etc. are at the top of the screen, not the bottom.  Not ideal (screen obscured by hand, fatigue) but maybe configurable?
The menus at the top are shortcuts (similar to our toolbar on the RTO/RTE family).  They are configurable.  The main menu is on the righthand side - it pops up but then goes away to allow the waveform to use the full display.  It also has the light pipes around the volt/div knob - no separate Y controls, but relatively straight forward which channel you are changing (and allowed the massive display).  I'll be curious to hear your feedback after using them.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: cheeseit on March 13, 2017, 09:08:53 pm
Sounds interesting and looks very stylish. Looking forward to see the pricing of scope and options. Maybe entry level pricing for R&S but surely must be more than $500.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 13, 2017, 09:16:38 pm
From Googling a bit I found this snippet, translated from Chinese (mandarin?):

"The R & S®RTB2000 oscilloscope has a bandwidth of 70MHz, 100MHz, 200MHz and 300Hz, providing up to 2. 5 Gs / s sampling rate and 10 M sample storage depth. 10.1 inch display"
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 13, 2017, 09:17:50 pm
Full datasheet:
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf)

Highlights:
1.25Gs/s with 4 channels on
10" 1280x800 touch screen
70, 100, 200 and 300 MHz (but no 50 Ohm input mode so 300MHz is quite useless)
10 bit ADC
10Mpts per channel (but it seems to be shared with the digital channels so caveat emptor)
Peak detect acquisition mode included
Protocol decoding and digital inputs optional

If R&S sticks to their usual (insane) option pricing then I strongly doubt the bigger screen makes up for the price difference compared to Asian offerings.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 13, 2017, 09:19:34 pm
So a $800 entry cost for the basic stripped down scope with 50 MHz and no options? Then $1000 for upgrades? I see where this is going.
I should have been more clear.  This is a 2000-class scope in pricing - so it will start well below $3,000, but there will be different price points beyond that.  Think pricing similar to Keysight's 2000X and Tek's DPO2000.  Definitely won't be for every hobbyist, but the value it brings is very high.

BTW - the best part (IMHO) of this scope hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread.  It was mentioned in another thread though ;D

-Rich

Edit:  nctnico mentioned it while I was typing.  It has a R&S designed 10-bit ADC.  Unusual for this class of scope, especially at these sample rates.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 13, 2017, 09:21:31 pm
Manual up already! I see 8 upgrade options..

1. Mixed signal option, additional 16 logic channels
2. Waveform generator and 4-bit pattern generator
3. Bandwith upgrades, 100 MHz, 200 MHz, 300 MHz
4. I2C triggering and decoding
5. UART/RS-232/RS-422/RS-485 triggering and decoding
6. CAN triggering and decoding
7. LIN triggering and decoding
8. History and segmented memory
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 13, 2017, 09:23:21 pm
Full datasheet:
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf)

Highlights:
1.25Gs/s with 4 channels on
10" 1280x800 touch screen
70, 100, 200 and 300 MHz (but no 50 Ohm input mode so 300MHz is quite useless)
300MHz with passive probes works. And 50R through-terminators are hardly a big deal
Quote
Protocol decoding and digital inputs optional

<sigh> Such a shame that  scope manufacturers continue to think that protocol decode is optional. Especially when less useful things like FFT are typically standard.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 13, 2017, 09:27:04 pm
Now calculate the impedance of a passive probe at 300MHz. The signal gets loaded so much that you won't get a decent representation of what signal is actually there. Feedthroughs are also nothing more than a band aid because the scope's input capacitance will screw things up.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: voltsandjolts on March 13, 2017, 09:27:23 pm
Just don't mention hacking OK.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 13, 2017, 09:34:44 pm
Pricing is on Farnell
http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&st=rtb20&selectedCategoryId=%5BLjava.lang.String%3B%403ebc3ebc&pageSize=25&showResults=true (http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&st=rtb20&selectedCategoryId=%5BLjava.lang.String%3B%403ebc3ebc&pageSize=25&showResults=true)

All product listings show 16 digital channels, but knowing Farnell this may be an error, or could be only MSO products listed.
70M 2ch GBP1088

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 13, 2017, 09:44:28 pm
Talking about contests here, this new R&S scope at least wins one price: Ugliest scope of the century :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 13, 2017, 09:47:19 pm
Hm, no real math? I see 4 wfm math operations in manual: +-*/
Positioned as high end EDU scope... is +-*/ all they teach in schools nowdays?  :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 13, 2017, 09:51:30 pm
Talking about contests here, this new R&S scope at least wins one price: Ugliest scope of the century :)
For you they'll include this tea-cozy to cover the scope when not in use:
(https://img0.etsystatic.com/105/1/8245084/il_340x270.1000379528_97jv.jpg) :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 13, 2017, 09:54:49 pm
From datasheet, looks like two decodes, but UART TX and RX count as 1 each, as do MISO/MOSI unlike  MSOX3000 which will do TX+RX as only one of the 2 available decodes
 
Not entirely clear of segmented is an option - they mention "history" feature but can't tell if this is another name for segmented or something more.

No sign of Nth edge burst trigger  :--
2- channel XYY mode - not sure I can think of a use for it but could do some nice demos..
UART decode user baudrate up to 32Mbaud  :-+
SPI decode up to 32 bits  :-+ DSOX1000 only does 16 ( can't remember of MSOX3000 does more)

Colour "rainbow" intensity display looks interesting.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 13, 2017, 09:55:52 pm
The $750 I saved up won't cut it, not even close! Maybe next time Rohde &S.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 13, 2017, 10:10:02 pm
Option pricing at Farnell
Wavegen GBP609.
MSO GBP609
I2C+SPI £418
UART £418
History + Segmented  £609  :scared: :scared:

Unless there are some good promos,   ( or other approaches  ;) ) these seem WAY overpriced.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 13, 2017, 10:17:00 pm
Wfms/s found to be 50,000
But some questions still:
Trigger rearm time?
Trigger rearm time, when offloading to segmented memory?
FFT points?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 13, 2017, 10:19:47 pm
 :wtf: For less than the price of the options alone you can buy a GW Instek MSO2204 which offers more functionality.
So yeah, unless you can hack the 70MHz base model into a fully optioned 300MHz one this scope is definitely doomed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on March 13, 2017, 10:28:25 pm
Will you sue Dave if he/someone here attempts to hack it? Or is R&S presence to somehow make the while situation less uneasy? Looks like a nice scope but this price deflation isn't happening, which is a shame.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: CustomEngineerer on March 13, 2017, 10:36:28 pm
Hello folks - R&S is launching a new MSOX game changer

 :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 13, 2017, 10:59:02 pm
For you they'll include this tea-cozy to cover the scope when not in use:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/product/rtb2000-options_63490-266306.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/product/rtb2000-options_63490-266306.html)
R&S®RTB-Z3
Order No. 1333.1734.02
Soft Bag

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 13, 2017, 11:02:28 pm
Nice.

but, do we have an idea on how much is it for the options? i remember seing crazy numbers for some R&S scopes..
i.e: 70 MHz (can upgrade bandwidth later)
Common decodes + automotive.
how much?

edit:uh, i spoke too soon. Only saw first page
seems that i wasn't becoming crazy at remembering 600€ per single decode options on some R&S scopes
jesus christ.

is this the 10 bit resolution, big screen one? too bad, it looked soo nice on paper.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 13, 2017, 11:31:32 pm
I like the look of the annotation feature, great use of a touch screen.

I was supposed to be getting one too, didn't happen.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: paulcav on March 13, 2017, 11:41:49 pm
ROHDE & SCHWARZ  RTB2002/RTB-B1 (RTB2K-72M)  Oscilloscope, RTB2000 Series, 2 Analogue, 16 Digital, 70 MHz, 1.25 GSPS, 10 Mpts, 5 ns

English info
http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2002-rtb-b1-rtb2k-72m/digital-storage-osc-70mhz-2-ch/dp/2723108 (http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2002-rtb-b1-rtb2k-72m/digital-storage-osc-70mhz-2-ch/dp/2723108)

at a mere AUS$2,766.11 get one tomorrow  8)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Skagit on March 13, 2017, 11:43:07 pm
Prices?
https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45684 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45684)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 13, 2017, 11:46:17 pm
I like the look of the annotation feature, great use of a touch screen.

I was supposed to be getting one too, didn't happen.
Hi Dave - I'll check on yours too.  Likely got caught up in the same issue Mike's did.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 13, 2017, 11:52:21 pm
At Testequity
Quote
   
Rohde & Schwarz RTB-PK1.02 Application Bundle for RTB2000 Series
Contains RTB-K1.02 (serial trigger and decoding I2C), RTB-K2.02 (SPI,UART/RS323), RTB-K3.02 (CAN/LIN), RTB-K15.02 (History and Segment Memory), RTB-B6.02 (ARB Generator) (1333.1092.02)
US$1260 (GBP1001 at Farnell).
Blatant copy of Keysight's app bundle. If you can use a reasonable proportion of them, rather better value.
The stupid thing is that if they'd price the individual ones more reasonably (e.g. as per DSOX1102) I'm sure they'd sell a lot more and possibly make more overall.
The other stupid thing is why are they even bothering to sell non-physical items through distribution. They could do them online cheaper by cutting out the middle man.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 13, 2017, 11:57:29 pm
Too expensive anyhow!

I hope that Rigol comes with a new affordable model that includes hardware decoding.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Dubbie on March 14, 2017, 12:11:51 am
Dunno what you guys are on about with it being ugly. I like it! It's a handsome chap.
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vk6zgo on March 14, 2017, 12:12:05 am
with gesture control ...
For some reason I'm reminded of Bob Widlar...  What would you want a scope to do in response to this gesture?
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZWtU43b__t4/maxresdefault.jpg)

Or Billy Connoly!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 12:21:44 am
I wonder what exactly this means -
Quote
Special display mode
inverse brightness, waveform color modes for analog channels (temperature, fire, rainbow)
Considering the lack of screenshots I'm beginning to doubt it means the use of colour to extend teh dynamic range of intensity grading as I think they do on their higher end models.

Also noticed 1mv/div without bandwidth limitation.

All in all it looks like pretty serious competition for the DSOX2000 in particular, though Keysight could easily drop prices and throw in options if they wanted.

But killer/game-changer ?  We'll see....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Someone on March 14, 2017, 12:35:58 am
I wonder what exactly this means -
Quote
Special display mode
inverse brightness, waveform color modes for analog channels (temperature, fire, rainbow)
Considering the lack of screenshots I'm beginning to doubt it means the use of colour to extend teh dynamic range of intensity grading as I think they do on their higher end models.
Describing the different color maps means its probably the false color style display for eye diagrams, a very welcome feature to make intensity graded displays clearer.

Hello folks - R&S is launching a new MSOX game changer
:-DD
They also seemed to know a lot of details ahead of everyone else, probably an undeclared interest there.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 14, 2017, 12:38:04 am
But killer/game-changer ?  We'll see....
I don't think so. Feature and pricewise the RTB2000 is on par with Lecroy's Wavesurfer 3000 which has been out for a couple of years already. The only important thing the Wavesurfer 3000 doesn't have is peak detect.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 12:47:38 am
I wonder what exactly this means -
Quote
Special display mode
inverse brightness, waveform color modes for analog channels (temperature, fire, rainbow)
Considering the lack of screenshots I'm beginning to doubt it means the use of colour to extend teh dynamic range of intensity grading as I think they do on their higher end models.
Describing the different color maps means its probably the false color style display for eye diagrams, a very welcome feature to make intensity graded displays clearer.
That's what I'd have hoped, but as it would be such good eye-candy, why are they not showing it in the datasheet or brochure ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 14, 2017, 12:49:47 am
No builtin 50 ohm termination does kind of suck.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 12:55:24 am
No builtin 50 ohm termination does kind of suck.
I'd sooner have auto probe sensing
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 14, 2017, 12:59:30 am
No builtin 50 ohm termination does kind of suck.
I'd sooner have auto probe sensing
The two features go hand in hand for the most part. If it is targeted to compete with the Keysight DSOX2000 series then having neither feature is understandable. Both of the features are a major reason I went with the Keysight 3000 instead of the 2000.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: technogeeky on March 14, 2017, 01:00:49 am
Full datasheet:
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf)

Highlights:
1.25Gs/s with 4 channels on
10" 1280x800 touch screen
70, 100, 200 and 300 MHz (but no 50 Ohm input mode so 300MHz is quite useless)
300MHz with passive probes works. And 50R through-terminators are hardly a big deal
Quote
Protocol decoding and digital inputs optional

<sigh> Such a shame that  scope manufacturers continue to think that protocol decode is optional. Especially when less useful things like FFT are typically standard.

mike:

I do understand arguments for and against this model. For instance, with the Tek USB3 spectrum analyzer, they sell an extremely powerful device and "give away" their software with the 17 basic measurements such a device can make. Then all of the fancier options and decodes cost money feature-by-feature until you're many thousands above the original price. Fine. I understand. Some of those features are downright awesome, and they are probably very difficult to implement properly.


But we're talking about protocol decoding. This is not rocket surgery. If I gave this oscilloscope, a pair of headphones, and a 12-pack of red bull to a 2nd or 3rd undergraduate computer science student they could knock out these protocol features in a weekend. The only reason that such features are still able to be sold as options is because the hardware is locked out against end-user programming. If someone made one of these oscilloscopes with an API, not only would protocol decode (and probably many other features) be available to everyone for free in the first week, by a month it would probably be capable of tons of other cool things that the manufacturer hasn't yet even imagined.

There is still a huge disconnect with the FOSS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open-source_software) and the electronics hardware and test equipment sectors. FOSS isn't perfect, and it's not for everyone. But it's exactly the markets like hobbyists, semi-professionals, enthusiasts which have benefitted and contributed the most to projects in this sector. And it's exactly the same people who would stand to benefit here.


It's a bit of a shame none of the test equipment manufacturers have the inclination to stand up and innovate in this sector. It's not like this would lead to more effective reverse engineering of the hardware either. There is literally nothing to lose. Almost none of the IP that these companies have implemented in product are totally in the software domain.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 01:15:55 am
My point is simply that pretty much everything that you're going to poke a scope into these days has at least one of I2C, SPI or UART.
A scope is a general-purpose test instrument, and as such, should include features that are commonly needed as standard.
You wouldn't expect features like zoom, pulse-width trigger, holdoff, USB storage, PC connectivity, roll mode etc. to be optional.
I contend that it is high time that serial decode & trigger should be a standard feature to be expected in any scope that claims to be a general-purpose unit. If one major manufacturer did it, the others would follow. I am slightly disappointed that R&S has not been that manufacturer.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 01:39:13 am
Wfms/s found to be 50,000
But some questions still:
Trigger rearm time?
Trigger rearm time, when offloading to segmented memory?
From https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB-K15_RTM-K15_Fast_ac_en_3607-1220-92_v0200.pdf
Quote
History and segmented memory
Equipped with the R&S®RTB-K15 and the R&S®RTM-K15
options, the R&S®RTB2000 and the R&S®RTM2000 of-
fer a history function with a segmented memory of
160/460 Msample per channel that is unique in this class,
covering both analog and digital channels. The memory
can be divided into several steps (see table). When the
ultra-segmented mode is activated, the blind time on the
R&S®RTM2000 is reduced to less than 5 ?s.
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 14, 2017, 01:41:41 am
...no separate Y controls...

Some feedback, that missing feature is the #1 reason I've recently ruled out a LeCroy Wavesurfer 30x4 for the next scope.  I'm sure the multiplexed vertical channels work well, but there is no escaping the fact that it is one more button press to make a channel setting change that I don't have to make with separate controls.  I would much prefer the scope be longer/wider or the controls smaller, whatever it takes, to get the separate channel controls. 

But definitely Kudos on the big screen!  The tiny 8.5 inch screen on the Keysight (Agisight?) 3000T series has been one of the show stoppers there so far, along with the teeny tiny memory.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 01:44:13 am
I wonder what exactly this means -
Quote
Special display mode
inverse brightness, waveform color modes for analog channels (temperature, fire, rainbow)
Considering the lack of screenshots I'm beginning to doubt it means the use of colour to extend teh dynamic range of intensity grading as I think they do on their higher end models.
Describing the different color maps means its probably the false color style display for eye diagrams, a very welcome feature to make intensity graded displays clearer.
That's what I'd have hoped, but as it would be such good eye-candy, why are they not showing it in the datasheet or brochure ?

From the User manual :
Quote
Waveform Color
Selects the color scale for the display of the waveform. Each scale comprises a set of
colors, where each color represents a certain frequency of occurrence.
Vertical Setup

"Temperature" Display in temperature colors. Blue corresponds to rare occurrences
of the samples, while white indicates frequent ones.
"Rainbow" Display in rainbow colors. Blue corresponds to rare occurrences of
the samples, while red indicates frequent ones.
"Fire" Display in fire colors. Yellow corresponds to rare occurrences of the
samples, while red indicates frequent ones.
"Default" Displays the waveform in its default monochrome color.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BloodyCactus on March 14, 2017, 01:51:55 am
wonder if I should not have just bought my hmo1202.... ohwell, done is done I guess!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 02:15:29 am
New firmware already!
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000/)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 02:24:42 am
wonder if I should not have just bought my hmo1202.... ohwell, done is done I guess!

Sell it before people catch wind of the new one?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 14, 2017, 02:27:35 am
Dang

I read the specifications, got excited!  Looked up pricing in CDN $.  4 channel with MSO, memory and decodes >$5000.  Sighed and let the day dream fade.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 02:29:25 am
Will you sue Dave if he/someone here attempts to hack it? Or is R&S presence to somehow make the while situation less uneasy? Looks like a nice scope but this price deflation isn't happening, which is a shame.

Given that R&S are the only company to ever approach me to have hack material removed from the website, I'd be willing to bet they would care.
All the more reason to do it  :P
(BTW, they never did get back to me on exact which posts violated their copyright...)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 02:30:25 am
Pricing is on Farnell
http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&st=rtb20&selectedCategoryId=%5BLjava.lang.String%3B%403ebc3ebc&pageSize=25&showResults=true (http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&st=rtb20&selectedCategoryId=%5BLjava.lang.String%3B%403ebc3ebc&pageSize=25&showResults=true)
All product listings show 16 digital channels, but knowing Farnell this may be an error, or could be only MSO products listed.
70M 2ch GBP1088

I'm pretty sure the digital channel are optional extra.
I have a ton of material on this scope, let me check...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 02:35:02 am
BTW, they have direct PDF comparison sheet against:
LeCroy WaveAce 2000
Rigol MSO2000A
Tek TBS2000
Tek MSO2000B
Keysight MSOX2000A

That tell you who they think their competition is, or they are too scared to compare to any others?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 02:36:42 am
The "killer features" here are the 10 bit ADC and 10.1" cap touch 1280 x 800 screen. No other scope in the bracket has those.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 02:38:47 am
Quote
Ordering information
Step 1: choose youroscilloscope model
Two-channel model: R&S®RTB2002
Four-channel model: R&S®RTB2004
Included accessories: All models include the R&S®RT-ZP03 single-ended passive probe for each channel, power cord and 3-year warranty.
Step 2: choose yourbandwidth option
70 MHz bandwidth
standard for two-channel and four-channel models
100 MHz bandwidth
R&S®RTB-B221 for R&S®RTB2002
R&S®RTB-B241 for R&S®RTB2004
200 MHz bandwidth
R&S®RTB-B222 for R&S®RTB2002
R&S®RTB-B242 for R&S®RTB2004
300 MHz bandwidth
R&S®RTB-B223 for R&S®RTB2002
R&S®RTB-B243 for R&S®RTB2004
Step 3: choose your options and accessories
Software options
Triggering and decoding
R&S®RTB-K1 I2C/SPI
R&S®RTB-K2 UART/RS-232/422/485
R&S®RTB-K3 CAN/LIN
History and segmented memory
R&S®RTB-15
Hardware options
R&S®RTB-B1 mixed signal upgrade for non-MSO models, 250 MHz
R&S®RTB-B6 arbitrary waveform generator
Accessories
R&S®RTB-Z1 plastic front cover
R&S®RTB-Z3 soft carrying bag
R&S®ZZA-RTB2K rackmount kit
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 02:43:01 am
One interesting thing is that they deliberately are targeting hobbyists in their marketing and mention Arduino, Rpi etc.

(http://i.imgur.com/iE4Lqpr.png)
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 02:44:31 am
No separate Y controls  :--

You can't have the bi 10.1" screen, 4 separate Y controls, and a small bench scope, something has to give,

In an internal marketing document they describe:
"Bigger display size expectation/ better form factor (aging engineers, bench space at premium)"
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 02:45:18 am
Pricing I have says US$1899 for the base model.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 02:46:42 am
Also noticed 1mv/div without bandwidth limitation.

Correct. Full bandwith 1mV and 10 bit ADC. very nice.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Someone on March 14, 2017, 02:47:33 am
BTW, they have direct PDF comparison sheet against:
LeCroy WaveAce 2000
Rigol MSO2000A
Tek TBS2000
Tek MSO2000B
Keysight MSOX2000A

That tell you who they think their competition is, or they are too scared to compare to any others?
The low end Lecroy 3000 is an outlier amongst the price class. But all those scopes above with this new R&S model offer some particular value to the customer, none are stupid purchases or particularly poor value if chose for their strengths (except possibly the Lecroy 2000)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 02:48:26 am
I believe the vertical knob rings light up in the different channel colours when you select it, nice touch.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 02:49:50 am
Quote
LAN and display over Ethernet shipped standard
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 02:51:26 am
They could have at least picked a signal with an anomaly for the Annotation marketing  ::)

(http://i.imgur.com/lpYYiUe.png)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 02:55:00 am
Porn shot

(http://i.imgur.com/WMhYaxp.jpg)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 02:57:10 am
Chipies

(http://i.imgur.com/Azf4wk8.jpg)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: madires on March 14, 2017, 02:59:38 am
MSO GBP609
I2C+SPI £418
UART £418

Why do DSO manufacturers miss the fact that there are USB based LAs with much more supported protocols plus a few advantages over a DSO for less money? I fully agree with you that decoding for the most common protocols should be a built-in standard feature.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 03:01:55 am
Why do DSO manufacturers miss the fact that there are USB based LAs with much more supported protocols plus a few advantages over a DSO for less money? I fully agree with you that decoding for the most common protocols should be a built-in standard feature.

I will have my hands on a new low end 2CH entry level scope tomorrow that supposedly has free serial decoding built in.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 14, 2017, 03:29:02 am
Why do DSO manufacturers miss the fact that there are USB based LAs with much more supported protocols plus a few advantages over a DSO for less money? I fully agree with you that decoding for the most common protocols should be a built-in standard feature.

I will have my hands on a new low end 2CH entry level scope tomorrow that supposedly has free serial decoding built in.

Live unboxing?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AR on March 14, 2017, 03:46:26 am
Hello Dave ,

Is this new low end 2Ch scope with free decode something different than the R&S.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: technogeeky on March 14, 2017, 03:55:23 am
Chipies

(http://i.imgur.com/Azf4wk8.jpg)

Why is Rhode and Schwartz sad? Awwww.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 14, 2017, 04:24:11 am
Hi,

This is one reason that they are SAD. From the datasheet, the scope does not pass class A therefore:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=299179;image)


I wonder what extra precautions you have to take? (tin foil hat ?)


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Bud on March 14, 2017, 05:28:19 am
The "killer features" here are the 10 bit ADC and 10.1" cap touch 1280 x 800 screen. No other scope in the bracket has those.

They can shove it all up their ass if they do not give 50 Ohm input. How possibly it is a problem to add one?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Someone on March 14, 2017, 05:36:03 am
The "killer features" here are the 10 bit ADC and 10.1" cap touch 1280 x 800 screen. No other scope in the bracket has those.

They can shove it all up their ass if they do not give 50 Ohm input. How possibly it is a problem to add one?
Its typical in this end of the scope market, 50 ohm input impedance is usually associated with active probes and >500MHz bandwidth.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on March 14, 2017, 06:04:31 am
The "killer features" here are the 10 bit ADC and 10.1" cap touch 1280 x 800 screen. No other scope in the bracket has those.

They can shove it all up their ass if they do not give 50 Ohm input. How possibly it is a problem to add one?
Its typical in this end of the scope market, 50 ohm input impedance is usually associated with active probes and >500MHz bandwidth.

Lots of lower bandwidth scopes have a 50 ohm input and for good reason!
But, it's really not that big of a deal to use a 50 ohm terminator when necessary IMO.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TerraHertz on March 14, 2017, 06:06:22 am
A "true game changer" would be to simply make good scopes, with no ransom payments to enable crippled hardware features. Just make the scope, and price it with a standard profit margin on the manufacturing cost.

'The Game' is this feature upgrade bullshit, that is flatly dishonest. I'd rather not have anything to do with companies that practice such tricks. Don't forget as a buyer you are also paying for the counterproductive development of the security features and obfuscation they had to build into the machine to protect their precious cripple-ware tricks. Elements of the instrument (that you paid for and own) which are inarguably hostile to your use of the instrument to its full potential.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 06:14:46 am
'The Game' is this feature upgrade bullshit, that is flatly dishonest.

No, it's not. It's simply business.
You don't have to like it to be sure, but it's not dishonest. It's totally honest, you know exactly what you have to pay up front, and that the hardware is built into the scope, they are not hiding that fact.

Quote
I'd rather not have anything to do with companies that practice such tricks.

Then vote with your feet and wallet.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 06:17:17 am
The "killer features" here are the 10 bit ADC and 10.1" cap touch 1280 x 800 screen. No other scope in the bracket has those.
They can shove it all up their ass if they do not give 50 Ohm input. How possibly it is a problem to add one?

So you think that unique performance enhancing stuff like a 10bit ADC and hi-res screen you can't change after the fact are not important, but the most important thing is a 50ohm input that you can simply add yourself with a couple of bucks of common parts? Makes sense  ::)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 14, 2017, 06:17:30 am
Hello folks - R&S is launching a new MSOX game changer - killer scope  [...]
It comes with advanced features - rather low cost - it is a no brainer ...  [...]

That sounds ever so slightly over the top...
Are you affiliated with R&S in any way, or have other vested interests?
If so, please disclose them.

And no, as witnessed by four pages of posts in 8 hours, it is not a no-brainer...  ::)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 06:19:09 am
Hello Dave ,
Is this new low end 2Ch scope with free decode something different than the R&S.

Yes. R&S do not make hobbyist level priced gear.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 06:19:52 am
I will have my hands on a new low end 2CH entry level scope tomorrow that supposedly has free serial decoding built in.
Live unboxing?

The survey said people hate live shows...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ProBang2 on March 14, 2017, 06:27:51 am
Live unboxing?

The survey said people hate live shows...

There is anytime an exception possible.

In this case: See it as a special kind of "Mailbag Wednesday"...   :-BROKE  :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 14, 2017, 06:43:00 am
I will have my hands on a new low end 2CH entry level scope tomorrow that supposedly has free serial decoding built in.
Live unboxing?

The survey said people hate live shows...

 :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrBungle on March 14, 2017, 06:43:51 am
The survey said people hate live shows...

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bitwelder on March 14, 2017, 06:50:47 am
BTW, they have direct PDF comparison sheet against:
LeCroy WaveAce 2000
Rigol MSO2000A
Tek TBS2000
Tek MSO2000B
Keysight MSOX2000A

That tell you who they think their competition is, or they are too scared to compare to any others?

I understand that it would take a lot of effort to make it, but perhaps it would be good time to plan a Scope Shootout?

BTW, I wonder if after Keysight and R&S there is some other vendor that is due to refresh their scope lineup soon....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: H.O on March 14, 2017, 07:37:17 am
They could have at least picked a signal with an anomaly for the Annotation marketing  ::)

(http://i.imgur.com/lpYYiUe.png)

If that's the 10.1" screen then it's got to be my 4 year old daughter drawing on it. Could be a handy feature never the less.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on March 14, 2017, 07:53:33 am
http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm)

EUR 1900.-- + VAT
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 14, 2017, 08:01:26 am
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/rtb2004/Rohde_&_Schwarz-rtb2004-b5.jpg)

Not sure I like the rear handle, seems pretty basic for an expensive scope. I'd much rather something to wrap fingers around.  :-//
Looks easy to drop.  :scared:  :-BROKE
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 14, 2017, 08:04:24 am
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/rtb2004/Rohde_&_Schwarz-rtb2004-b5.jpg)

I wonder what's behind the little lid (?) in the lower center?
Clock/backup battery, or some nice surprise feature?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 14, 2017, 08:15:33 am
No builtin 50 ohm termination does kind of suck.
I'd sooner have auto probe sensing
That usually only works for the manufacturer's own probes so it is pretty useless for generic use. I rather have a good UI to setup the probes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 14, 2017, 08:25:35 am
http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm)

EUR 1900.-- + VAT
It is interesting that this website lists Hameg MSO probes as an acessoiry. I think there is more Hameg under the hood than R&S. I hope this scope has the BNCs bolted to the front and the PCB properly fixed to the chassis unlike the cheaply built Hameg scopes.

edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
 :palm:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Towger on March 14, 2017, 08:28:26 am
Nice wide holes on the air vent grills. Looks like they designed it to me passively cool or at the very least should be quiet, if a decent fan is fitted.
Dave, can you test the strength and of the grills, the down side is they may be easy to brake.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 14, 2017, 09:05:05 am
Nice wide holes on the air vent grills.
Nice for critters to make a home in.  :--

I'd be adding some fine mesh to keep these little buggers out.

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/photograph/11149/mason-wasp-nest (http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/photograph/11149/mason-wasp-nest)
http://www.terrain.net.nz/friends-of-te-henui-group/bees-and-wasps/wasp-mason.html (http://www.terrain.net.nz/friends-of-te-henui-group/bees-and-wasps/wasp-mason.html)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: HighVoltage on March 14, 2017, 09:12:03 am
edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:
I have a 3 year old R&S scope and it came with ribbon cable for the MSO probes and it was discounted to Euro 300! :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tszaboo on March 14, 2017, 09:48:21 am
edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
 :palm:
No, the ribbon calbe usually goes into a small box, which has some 0.1 cent component in it.

Yes. R&S do not make hobbyist level priced gear.
Last time I was talking to them on Electronica, I had the feeling that they are targeting the entry level market. They handed me a "Value instruments katalog 2016". My feeling was it is still too expensive, but probably there are deals if you call their sales office.

The stupid thing is that if they'd price the individual ones more reasonably (e.g. as per DSOX1102) I'm sure they'd sell a lot more and possibly make more overall.
The other stupid thing is why are they even bothering to sell non-physical items through distribution. They could do them online cheaper by cutting out the middle man.
They do that because how big companies work. It is easier to get to convince upper management to get a 2000 EUR instrument than a 4000 EUR one. And then you can just order the 400EUR upgrades, without them even knowing about it. Most middle managers have some 500EUR signing capability. Meaning they are allowed to order stuff for that amount, without discussing it. It is stupid, but big companies work stupid.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: DaveW on March 14, 2017, 09:49:31 am
Got one just before the weekend and managed to get some early playing around filmed, on youtube here.

https://youtu.be/7YxFoahKxQ0

First impressions are very positive, good screen, good interface and the little features like booting up is pretty quick.
The wavegen is powerful and as you'd expect from a scope with a 10 bit ADC, the FFT and measurements functions are impressive.
If there are any particular questions, I can go through them tonight when I get back from work and try and answer some!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 10:15:33 am
No builtin 50 ohm termination does kind of suck.
I'd sooner have auto probe sensing
That usually only works for the manufacturer's own probes so it is pretty useless for generic use. I rather have a good UI to setup the probes.
Simple probe divider ratios using a resistor are standard across all the probes I've ever seen
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: R005T3r on March 14, 2017, 10:22:32 am
No separate Y controls  :--
But plenty of buttons :-+

Looks like the touch menus etc. are at the top of the screen, not the bottom.  Not ideal (screen obscured by hand, fatigue) but maybe configurable?
The menus at the top are shortcuts (similar to our toolbar on the RTO/RTE family).  They are configurable.  The main menu is on the righthand side - it pops up but then goes away to allow the waveform to use the full display.  It also has the light pipes around the volt/div knob - no separate Y controls, but relatively straight forward which channel you are changing (and allowed the massive display).  I'll be curious to hear your feedback after using them.

-Rich

Does it support virtual screen as the HMO series does?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 10:27:33 am
Got one just before the weekend and managed to get some early playing around filmed, on youtube here.

https://youtu.be/7YxFoahKxQ0

First impressions are very positive, good screen, good interface and the little features like booting up is pretty quick.
The wavegen is powerful and as you'd expect from a scope with a 10 bit ADC, the FFT and measurements functions are impressive.
If there are any particular questions, I can go through them tonight when I get back from work and try and answer some!
Bit of a glitch at 5:40?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 10:56:09 am
The pattern generator seems to be a bit of a missed opportunity to add something really useful and differentiate it from other scopes.
AFAICS, the outputs are fixed voltage, and the loop-tag connections are only really suited to hanging a scope probe off.
So doesn't look useful for much more than training signals. 
If they'd had a connector ( e.g. 10W IDC), and either variable or 5/3.33/2.5/1.8v selection it would have been so much more useful. 

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 11:12:49 am
The pattern generator seems to be a bit of a missed opportunity to add something really useful and differentiate it from other scopes.
AFAICS, the outputs are fixed voltage, and the loop-tag connections are only really suited to hanging a scope probe off.
So doesn't look useful for much more than training signals. 
If they'd had a connector ( e.g. 10W IDC), and either variable or 5/3.33/2.5/1.8v selection it would have been so much more useful.

I found a similar limitation on the MHO1000 series. Quite restricting
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 14, 2017, 11:17:06 am
Got one just before the weekend and managed to get some early playing around filmed, on youtube here.
 the FFT and measurements functions are impressive.
How many points is the FFT you where showing? And what is the maximum FFT length?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 11:30:40 am
Got one just before the weekend and managed to get some early playing around filmed, on youtube here.
 the FFT and measurements functions are impressive.
How many points is the FFT you where showing? And what is the maximum FFT length?

128K point max.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: wraper on March 14, 2017, 11:39:26 am
Bit of a glitch at 5:40?
Funny, happened during a brief moment when he looked away from the scope and disappeared when he looked back.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 14, 2017, 11:42:06 am
Looking at your test setup, you only have R&S gear. Are you an R&S aficionado aka fanboy?

The touch screen seems more like a gimmick that most professional users will not use on a daily basis.

R&S is overpriced IMO. Run & Shout :)

Got one just before the weekend and managed to get some early playing around filmed, on youtube here.

https://youtu.be/7YxFoahKxQ0

First impressions are very positive, good screen, good interface and the little features like booting up is pretty quick.
The wavegen is powerful and as you'd expect from a scope with a 10 bit ADC, the FFT and measurements functions are impressive.
If there are any particular questions, I can go through them tonight when I get back from work and try and answer some!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on March 14, 2017, 11:45:47 am
Touch saves some space on the edges of the screen as you can use touch in lieu of push buttons. I'd question the longevity of the touch screen. Daniel likes to show off the added functionality of touch in his demonstrations and it's certainly better than voice control.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 11:49:54 am
The touch screen seems more like a gimmick that most professional users will not use on a daily basis.
Although I'm a die-hard "knobs & buttons" person, I find I do use the touchscreen on my MSOX3104T, and start to miss it when using scopes without. It does seem to have exceptional fingermark resistance on its glass anti-reflective screen.

One very useful function is being able to pop up a keyboard to enter numeric values and label text. And also zone trigger. The freehand draw annotation feature on the R&S looks very useful - the Keysight lets you enter text labels and position them anywhere.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 11:52:34 am
If there are any particular questions, I can go through them tonight when I get back from work and try and answer some!
Can you do some pics/vid of the various colour-graded and inverse brightness modes, ideally with a nontrivial waveform like analogue video or AM.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: wraper on March 14, 2017, 11:54:05 am
Touch saves some space on the edges of the screen as you can use touch in lieu of push buttons. I'd question the longevity of the touch screen. Daniel likes to show off the added functionality of touch in his demonstrations and it's certainly better than voice control.
If it is made with some sort of glass surface like modern smartphones/tablets, then it will be virtually indestructible for such use.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bktemp on March 14, 2017, 12:10:07 pm
edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
 :palm:
No, the ribbon calbe usually goes into a small box, which has some 0.1 cent component in it.
If I remember correctly, the small box has the comparators in it, converting the sensed input signals into differential signals.
Ribbon cable has close to 100ohms impedance between neighbouring wires, so it is useable for differential signals like LVDS up to many 100MBits/s.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Frost on March 14, 2017, 12:27:54 pm
I think there is more Hameg under the hood than R&S.

I would say, this is a Hameg device.
First, it's to cheap for R&S and second on the datatec page
they call the manufaturer "Rohde & Schwarz Value Instruments"
and "Value Instruments" in my oppinion, is the new name for the
old Hamge brand.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: DaveW on March 14, 2017, 12:32:34 pm
Bit of a glitch at 5:40?
Funny, happened during a brief moment when he looked away from the scope and disappeared when he looked back.

Gremlins! Or possibly editing... But probably gremlins.  It was all filmed and edited pretty quickly I'm afraid.

If there are any particular questions, I can go through them tonight when I get back from work and try and answer some!
Can you do some pics/vid of the various colour-graded and inverse brightness modes, ideally with a nontrivial waveform like analogue video or AM.

Will do; I seem to remember there being a invert option for the colour grading. Shall get an AM waveform and post some screenshots
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: dr.diesel on March 14, 2017, 01:00:23 pm
I would say, this is a Hameg device.
First, it's to cheap for R&S and second on the datatec page
they call the manufaturer "Rohde & Schwarz Value Instruments"
and "Value Instruments" in my oppinion, is the new name for the
old Hamge brand.

This would be good news IMO, wonder if the original Hameg Mainhausen office is still up and ticking in the wake of R&S?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: madires on March 14, 2017, 01:04:04 pm
Yep, most likely a Hameg. Let's see if they do a promotion with free decode options as they have done in the past. 800 bucks for UART, I2C and SPI is insane.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2017, 01:10:20 pm
Yep, most likely a Hameg. Let's see if they do a promotion with free decode options as they have done in the past. 800 bucks for UART, I2C and SPI is insane.

It's nuts when a new sub $400 scope has them built in as standard. It's sitting in my dumpster, wait for it...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 14, 2017, 01:11:03 pm
Yep, most likely a Hameg. Let's see if they do a promotion with free decode options as they have done in the past. 800 bucks for UART, I2C and SPI is insane.

Agree -- doesn't sound like they actually expect to charge that amount. Maybe they have just inflated the price tag so they can show their customers what a great value they are getting with the upcoming free promo ;-)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 14, 2017, 01:15:09 pm
edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
 :palm:
If I remember correctly, the small box has the comparators in it, converting the sensed input signals into differential signals.
Ribbon cable has close to 100ohms impedance between neighbouring wires, so it is useable for differential signals like LVDS up to many 100MBits/s.
That is true but ribbon cable is the worse choice by far because the insulation is weak (melts quickly) and the wire strands are brittle. Ribbon cable is intended for stationary use inside enclosures.
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 14, 2017, 01:33:16 pm
No separate Y controls  :--
But plenty of buttons :-+

Looks like the touch menus etc. are at the top of the screen, not the bottom.  Not ideal (screen obscured by hand, fatigue) but maybe configurable?
The menus at the top are shortcuts (similar to our toolbar on the RTO/RTE family).  They are configurable.  The main menu is on the righthand side - it pops up but then goes away to allow the waveform to use the full display.  It also has the light pipes around the volt/div knob - no separate Y controls, but relatively straight forward which channel you are changing (and allowed the massive display).  I'll be curious to hear your feedback after using them.

-Rich

Does it support virtual screen as the HMO series does?
No, it does not.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 14, 2017, 01:48:43 pm
Yep, most likely a Hameg. Let's see if they do a promotion with free decode options as they have done in the past. 800 bucks for UART, I2C and SPI is insane.

It's nuts when a new sub $400 scope has them built in as standard. It's sitting in my dumpster, wait for it...

Don't be such a tease! What is it? A Siglent?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 14, 2017, 02:20:55 pm
I would speculate Rigol, as the 1000X and 2000X series from Siglent are fairly recent, and Rigol is the one that should come with a new model, given no new models for a long time, except the DS4000E series, which were not a big success anyhow.

Here is a good marketing slogan for Rigol in the mean time: "We are back!" :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 14, 2017, 02:25:30 pm
I was going to write Owon or Hantek but Rigol also makes sense.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 14, 2017, 02:27:10 pm
I would speculate Rigol, as the 1000X and 2000X series from Siglent are fairly recent, and Rigol is the one that should come with a new model, given no new models for a long time, except the DS4000E series, which were not a big success anyhow.

Here is a good marketing slogan for Rigol in the mean time: "We are back!" :)

Not likely at all, in my opinion. Rigol's most recent scope is the low-end DS1000Z series. Why should they replace that one by a new sub $400 offering (which is what Dave has indicated)? The next thing I would expect from Rigol is a replacement for their 2000 and 4000 series.

My bet is on Siglent, also based on tautech's thinly veiled excitement  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 14, 2017, 02:29:30 pm
Here is a good marketing slogan for Rigol in the mean time: "We are back!" :)

That does not reflect core ideology with supercharged Sin(x)/x etc. I propose: "Got a line? We'll wiggle it!"  :bullshit:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Carrington on March 14, 2017, 02:32:18 pm
GWInstek or Micsig. Maybe?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 14, 2017, 02:37:59 pm
GWInstek or Micsig. Maybe?

I really wish Micsig made conventional oscilloscopes, the handheld ones are nice but - handheld - and the tablet ones are a bit .. toyish (and no knobs!).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Carrington on March 14, 2017, 02:45:40 pm
I really wish Micsig made conventional oscilloscopes...
Yeah, that would be nice.
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Frost on March 14, 2017, 02:47:17 pm
Wonder if the original Hameg Mainhausen office is still up and ticking in the wake of R&S?

When I came from Seligenstadt last week I drove through Mainhausen.
It seems to me that at least one smaller office building is still in use by "Hameg" / R&S,
but the other parts with the old production halls are all closed and I think I also saw signs
along the road with rental offerings.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: borjam on March 14, 2017, 02:51:56 pm
Here is a good marketing slogan for Rigol in the mean time: "We are back!" :)
A better slogan would be "We have studied hard!" because they show an astonishingly toxic lack of attention to detail. They seem to do some clerical work, not actual product development.

Note that I am the owner of a DS1074Z and of course I don´t expect miracles. But, a non properly locking PLL? Lots of math features such  as derivative, etc, but so badly implemented that they are really useless? And I still believe that the DS1000Z has a great value for money. But I think it wouldn't have costed much more to do a better job. It's a matter of of development culture.

So far they are one of the worst examples of the "checkbox approach" to product design.

-- "Hey, Joe, look, LeCroy has a derivative function".

-- "Right, Mike, let's tel Bill to add a derivative function. Hey, Bill, add a button to calculate a derivative and implement a simple derivative function!".

With these products it looks like no real user has been involved in the design and implementation. I'm not speaking about bugs, but serious design errors. A problem that plagues almost all of the Chinese products I have seen, and there are plenty of them.

Traditional manufacturers are much better in that respect. Alas, the prices are significantly higher. But it's great to see them trying to regain ground.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 14, 2017, 02:57:22 pm
GWInstek or Micsig. Maybe?

GWI low cost with decode would be THE low cost scope, period.

but according to more or less subtle hints from very specific forum members the name should end with X-E
which points more toward siglent

I guess we'll see... tomorrow, is it?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: free_electron on March 14, 2017, 03:00:49 pm
with pattern generator. i hope it can do spi and i2c ... would be cool.
but : no vertical per channel knobs. massive fail.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 03:21:49 pm
but : no vertical per channel knobs. massive fail.
The touchscreen, and I think the colouring of the vertical buttons with the currently selected channel may go some way to making this less of an issue once you get used to them.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: voltsandjolts on March 14, 2017, 04:06:01 pm
Granted, its not ideal to have just one vertical control but you get used to it - I had to on my old Tek TDS3000!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 14, 2017, 05:23:00 pm
What I don't like in model names, is the E extension which stands for Economy.

This makes me think about the practices some manufacturers did in the early nineties, where they used CR in the model name, indicating Cost Reduction :)

By all means, who is going to be proud to show off to his friend about his new scope that he got, where the E indicates Economy. That means that you were on a low budget in buying your new gadget :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: salviador on March 14, 2017, 05:44:33 pm
wowwwww I like!!!!! I want buy one!!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: H.O on March 14, 2017, 06:09:17 pm
Quote
By all means, who is going to be proud to show off to his friend about his new scope that he got, where the E indicates Economy.
If you have friends that really cares about that just tell them it stands for Enhanced and not Economy or scrape the letter off you're that embarrassed. You seem more interested in color schemes, what the knobs look like, what font is being used and how exactly the serial number is composed than what the instruments actually do.

Back to the R&S scope in question, how's the screen when it comes to glare and reflections? It looks rather glossy.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on March 14, 2017, 07:41:08 pm
wowwwww I like!!!!! I want buy one!!

I considered to buy a HMO1232 but now I think I'll go for the RTB2004 - 70MHz

Reasons:
- 4 channels input
- 10.1 Inches screen
- 10bit ADC
- 1.25GS/channel
- up to 20 MSPS memory depth
- 50k waveforms/s
- nearly the same price
- I do not need really 300MHz and if I want, I can upgrade to 100MHz which is affordable (but imho way too expensive anyway)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 14, 2017, 08:26:46 pm
Now calculate the impedance of a passive probe at 300MHz. The signal gets loaded so much that you won't get a decent representation of what signal is actually there. Feedthroughs are also nothing more than a band aid because the scope's input capacitance will screw things up.

I guess there really is no pleasing some people.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 14, 2017, 08:32:55 pm
Now calculate the impedance of a passive probe at 300MHz. The signal gets loaded so much that you won't get a decent representation of what signal is actually there. Feedthroughs are also nothing more than a band aid because the scope's input capacitance will screw things up.
I guess there really is no pleasing some people.
OK I'm sorry the laws of physics are the way they are. I'll change them ASAP for you.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: real69 on March 14, 2017, 08:50:56 pm
Found 2 video on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YxFoahKxQ0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YxFoahKxQ0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlsPaAF6Zuk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlsPaAF6Zuk)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 14, 2017, 08:57:04 pm
I considered to buy a HMO1232 but now I think I'll go for the RTB2004 - 70MHz

Reasons:
- 4 channels input
- 10.1 Inches screen
- 10bit ADC
- 1.25GS/channel
- up to 20 MSPS memory depth
- 50k waveforms/s
- nearly the same price
- I do not need really 300MHz and if I want, I can upgrade to 100MHz which is affordable (but imho way too expensive anyway)

I too think it's a nice scope, but maybe wait and see what happens with promotions, reviews etc.

I'm a little confused that it's advertised as "MSOX game changer" while it doesn't do that unless you fork out 700 EUR for the option (and then it still doesn't do the decoding...or does it?)
It seems you get 160 MSa memory in the segmented memory option mode so maybe future options have more memory as well? (pure speculation)

PS.  28,3 dB(A) noise.
PPS. that probe compensation routine looks interesting!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: DaveW on March 14, 2017, 09:00:24 pm
If there are any particular questions, I can go through them tonight when I get back from work and try and answer some!
Can you do some pics/vid of the various colour-graded and inverse brightness modes, ideally with a nontrivial waveform like analogue video or AM.

Done and done, using an FM signal to really show the colour grading, and took a few with an AM modulation signal. Will go into this in a bit more detail soon as well. We've put some images and a short video here,
https://goo.gl/photos/Hxo3RtH6BPgohoSP6 (https://goo.gl/photos/Hxo3RtH6BPgohoSP6)

but : no vertical per channel knobs. massive fail.
The touchscreen, and I think the colouring of the vertical buttons with the currently selected channel may go some way to making this less of an issue once you get used to them.

The colour coding of the kpbs really does help usability a lot and I find I don't miss the separate controls using this, or indeed another R&S scope which has the same functionality. Definitely less of an issue than you'd expect.

Quote
By all means, who is going to be proud to show off to his friend about his new scope that he got, where the E indicates Economy.
If you have friends that really cares about that just tell them it stands for Enhanced and not Economy or scrape the letter off you're that embarrassed. You seem more interested in color schemes, what the knobs look like, what font is being used and how exactly the serial number is composed than what the instruments actually do.

Back to the R&S scope in question, how's the screen when it comes to glare and reflections? It looks rather glossy.

The screen looks really bad in the videos as we use a load of lighting pointing right at the scope, but in normal use it's very nice, and the high resolution screen comes out great. I've been using under pretty standard electronic bench lighting conditions, with lighting straight above it (mounted below a shelf) and had no problems at all.

with pattern generator. i hope it can do spi and i2c ... would be cool.
but : no vertical per channel knobs. massive fail.

Although it's a shame the levels aren't variable, they can spit out a lot of different protocols. I've put a screenshot on our blog, but to summarise here,
Counter, Arbitrary, Manual, UART, SPI, I2C, CAN and LIN. Someone needs to make a nice comparator with a variable supply to fix the last oversight and it's a very nice feature!

The screenshot showing this, plus loads of photos of the scope are at the link below. Hope that helps, and if more questions come up, we'll try to answer them!

http://wattcircuit.com/2017/03/14/watt-circuit-rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-oscilloscope-overview/ (http://wattcircuit.com/2017/03/14/watt-circuit-rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-oscilloscope-overview/)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 09:04:38 pm
Counter, Arbitrary, Manual, UART, SPI, I2C, CAN and LIN. Someone needs to make a nice comparator with a variable supply to fix the last oversight and it's a very nice feature!
What does it offer in the way of configuring the data output - can you make it output users strings over UART etc. ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 14, 2017, 09:27:16 pm
What operating system are they using? Linux?
I think that Keysight will have to come up with a new scope...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 09:36:46 pm
What operating system are they using? Linux?
I think that Keysight will have to come up with a new scope...
Open Source page mentions FreeRTOS. Seems to start very fast.
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_osa/RTB_OpenSourceAcknowledgment_en_01.pdf
Quote

Open Source Acknowledgment 1333.1663.00 ? 01
2  Software packages The software contained in this product makes use of the following open source software packages.
Package
License

Altera SOC EDS
BSD-3
FreeRTOS
GPL 2 with Free-RTOS Exception

FreeType 1
FreeType Project License
giflib
MIT

libpng
libpng License
libstdc++
GPL 3

GCC Runtime Library Exception 3.1
LwIP
BSD-3
nanoX

MPL 1.1
newlib
BSD-3
OpenSSL
OpenSSL/SSLeay License

zlib
zlib 1.2.7
This product includes software developed by the OpenSSL Proje

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 14, 2017, 09:49:57 pm
FreeRTOS (or linux) is a plus in my book, especially when compared to Keysight's WinCE.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: DaveW on March 14, 2017, 10:15:18 pm
You can load in scp files to control the data coming out of the pattern generator under the arbitrary mode, so might be a generate some strings on the PC and load onto the scope.
And yeah, looks like FreeRTOS. Pretty fast to start up, especially compared to some on the market!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on March 14, 2017, 10:45:42 pm
Auto/norm button, LIKE! Not sure why more scopes don't have this as a simple toggle button, it is such a frequently used mode change.

I may be mistaken but the screen looks glossy rather than matt, if it is I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.

Regarding DaveW's video, thanks for making that. How long have you had it? There was a lot of gushing "fantastic", "excellent", "really nice", "I like that", etc, so it's difficult to work out if this was R&S sponsored? It seemed much more like a commercial than a candid review to me, apologies if I've misinterpreted that.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: DaveW on March 14, 2017, 10:57:38 pm
Auto/norm button, LIKE! Not sure why more scopes don't have this as a simple toggle button, it is such a frequently used mode change.

I may be mistaken but the screen looks glossy rather than matt, if it is I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.

Regarding DaveW's video, thanks for making that. How long have you had it? There was a lot of gushing "fantastic", "excellent", "really nice", "I like that", etc, so it's difficult to work out if this was R&S sponsored? It seemed much more like a commercial than a candid review to me, apologies if I've misinterpreted that.

Yeah, matt would have been nice, but so far it still seems pretty good. At least for me, I don't really tend to take the scope outside much! Please don't take this one as a proper review, this was very much a first impression as I've only had it a few days, and most of those have been work days. Full review will be coming along soon which will go into pros and cons properly and will be compared to the competition; remember that when this was filmed I didn't have a manual, price or anything except the scope itself, which means it's difficult to know what it's competing against.
And for clarity, definitely not sponsored; we don't do that crap. As per standard, we get to keep the scope at the end though.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 11:10:08 pm

Auto/norm button, LIKE! Not sure why more scopes don't have this as a simple toggle button, it is such a frequently used mode change.
The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 14, 2017, 11:12:38 pm
I may be mistaken but the screen looks glossy rather than matt, if it is I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.

I don't think such a thing as non-glossy capacitive LCD touchscreen exists. And you don't want resistive there.

EDIT:
Capacitive touchscreen. Forgot to add "capacitive".
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 14, 2017, 11:14:19 pm
I may be mistaken but the screen looks glossy rather than matt, if it is I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.

I don't think such a thing as non-glossy LCD touchscreen exists. And you don't want resistive there.

Several Lenovo touchscreen laptops are anti-glare.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 11:20:44 pm
I may be mistaken but the screen looks glossy rather than matt, if it is I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.

I don't think such a thing as non-glossy capacitive LCD touchscreen exists. And you don't want resistive there.

EDIT:
Capacitive touchscreen. Forgot to add "capacitive".
The Keysight scopes have a non-glossy screen, captouch on the MSOX31024T.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 14, 2017, 11:24:52 pm
The Keysight scopes have a non-glossy screen, captouch on the MSOX31024T.

Non-glossy as in smooth glass surface with good antireflex layer applied or differrent type of surface altogether?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 14, 2017, 11:48:19 pm
The Keysight scopes have a non-glossy screen, captouch on the MSOX31024T.

Non-glossy as in smooth glass surface with good antireflex layer applied or differrent type of surface altogether?
Don't know how it's made but it's glass, nonreflective and remarkably fingermark-resistant.
Although it doesn't have a touchscreen, the DSOX1000 also has a glass antireflective sheet in front of the LCD module 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 14, 2017, 11:52:36 pm
The Keysight scopes have a non-glossy screen, captouch on the MSOX31024T.

Non-glossy as in smooth glass surface with good antireflex layer applied or differrent type of surface altogether?
Don't know how it's made but it's glass, nonreflective and remarkably fingermark-resistant. Although it doesn't have a touchscreen. The DSOX1000 also has a glass antireflective sheet in front of the LCD module

btw, Mike is saying the DSOX1000 doesn't have a touchscreen, the 3000T series does.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 15, 2017, 12:00:54 am
The Keysight scopes have a non-glossy screen, captouch on the MSOX31024T.

Non-glossy as in smooth glass surface with good antireflex layer applied or differrent type of surface altogether?
Don't know how it's made but it's glass, nonreflective and remarkably fingermark-resistant. Although it doesn't have a touchscreen. The DSOX1000 also has a glass antireflective sheet in front of the LCD module

btw, Mike is saying the DSOX1000 doesn't have a touchscreen, the 3000T series does.
Re-punctuated for clarity!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Dubbie on March 15, 2017, 12:24:10 am
The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.

Oh! Hadn't thought of this. Excellent idea.
I hate faffing through the menus to change this.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 15, 2017, 03:13:03 am
The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.

Oh! Hadn't thought of this. Excellent idea.
I hate faffing through the menus to change this.
Why would any manufacturer want to hide Auto/Normal trigger in a Menu ?  :-//
All Siglent scopes have always had it as two separate physical buttons on the front panel UI.
Manual trigger is one feature I use a lot when setting up a Single shot event capture.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 15, 2017, 07:42:50 am
Why would any manufacturer want to hide Auto/Normal trigger in a Menu ?  :-//
All Siglent scopes have always had it as two separate physical buttons on the front panel UI.

I appreciate that you are a "rabid Siglent distributor".  ;)
But I think you would do yourself and your credibility a favor if you tone it down a bit, and limit the frequency of "Siglent is better" posts...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: sdouble on March 15, 2017, 08:25:46 am
is there an optional battery operationg mode ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rachaelp on March 15, 2017, 08:34:07 am
The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.

I've now configured mine this way! Why hadn't I thought to do that before? :palm: Thanks for the tip Mike! :)
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2017, 09:30:48 am
No separate Y controls  :--
You can't have the bi 10.1" screen, 4 separate Y controls, and a small bench scope, something has to give,
 

Can you drag the traces up and down with your finger? That would make it moot.

I'm unsure about touch screen oscilloscopes though. Do they get covered in dirty fingerprints?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2017, 09:35:36 am
MSO GBP609
I2C+SPI £418
UART £418
Why do DSO manufacturers miss the fact that there are USB based LAs with much more supported protocols plus a few advantages over a DSO for less money? I fully agree with you that decoding for the most common protocols should be a built-in standard feature.

It's just marketing. As soon as one big player starts giving them away for free then they all will.

Until then?  People are paying money so... :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 15, 2017, 09:40:13 am
Why would any manufacturer want to hide Auto/Normal trigger in a Menu ?  :-//
All Siglent scopes have always had it as two separate physical buttons on the front panel UI.

I appreciate that you are a "rabid Siglent distributor".  ;)
But I think you would do yourself and your credibility a favor if you tone it down a bit, and limit the frequency of "Siglent is better" posts...
And that's your trouble, I didn't say anything like that.  :P
But if you want to start comparing specs and pricing......or do you ?

I asked a valid question : Why would any manufacturer want to hide Auto/Normal trigger in a Menu ?
Nobody has provided an answer, just had a go.  ::)

Then I made 2 statements of fact for comparison.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2017, 09:42:37 am
Daniel likes to show off the added functionality of touch in his demonstrations and it's certainly better than voice control.

Voice control?  :scared:

That would be in the special EE version of hell.  :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2017, 09:45:07 am
I'd question the longevity of the touch screen.
If it is made with some sort of glass surface like modern smartphones/tablets, then it will be virtually indestructible for such use.

But then it would much too shiny/reflective. Add it to the list of "oscilloscope hell" features. Voice control with very shiny screen.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 15, 2017, 09:45:23 am
MSO GBP609
I2C+SPI £418
UART £418
Why do DSO manufacturers miss the fact that there are USB based LAs with much more supported protocols plus a few advantages over a DSO for less money? I fully agree with you that decoding for the most common protocols should be a built-in standard feature.

It's just marketing. As soon as one big player starts giving them away for free then they all will.

Until then?  People are paying money so... :-//

I got a new scope in my lab today that comes with free serial decode, and it's under $400.
It's started...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 15, 2017, 09:47:15 am
Daniel likes to show off the added functionality of touch in his demonstrations and it's certainly better than voice control.

Voice control?  :scared:

That would be in the special EE version of hell.  :-DD
I think some of the high-end KS scopes have voice control. I can see how it would be useful in some niche situations, where all your hands are tied up holding sketchy probing arrangements.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2017, 09:49:24 am
edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
 :palm:
If I remember correctly, the small box has the comparators in it, converting the sensed input signals into differential signals.
Ribbon cable has close to 100ohms impedance between neighbouring wires, so it is useable for differential signals like LVDS up to many 100MBits/s.
That is true but ribbon cable is the worse choice by far because the insulation is weak (melts quickly) and the wire strands are brittle.
And the particular connector shown in that photo will break after you pull it out half a dozen times.

(maybe you're only supposed to connect it once and leave it there)

It wouldn't be so bad if the cable was detachable from the magic box so you could replace it but they never are.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2017, 09:52:23 am
It's just marketing. As soon as one big player starts giving them away for free then they all will.

Until then?  People are paying money so... :-//

I got a new scope in my lab today that comes with free serial decode, and it's under $400.
It's started...

Sure, but it won't be a "professional" 'scope so it won't change anything.

The DS1054Z has had free serial decode for a while, too (nudge, nudge, wink, wink...)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 15, 2017, 09:58:38 am
I was going to write Owon or Hantek but Rigol also makes sense.

Rigol already has a $400 'scope that sells like hot cakes. I wouldn't expect them to launch a new model in the current climate unless it's a lot less than $400.

It would have to be $300 for a (hackable) 2-channel 'scope or something like that. People would simply keep on buying the DS1054Z otherwise.

They can probably do that: They still sell the DS1052E for not much more than that and a newer design would be cheaper to manufacture.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 15, 2017, 10:03:33 am
It's just marketing. As soon as one big player starts giving them away for free then they all will.

Until then?  People are paying money so... :-//

I got a new scope in my lab today that comes with free serial decode, and it's under $400.
It's started...

Sure, but it won't be a "professional" 'scope so it won't change anything.

The DS1054Z has had free serial decode for a while, too (nudge, nudge, wink, wink...)
Unless it's got a really good FFT and a few other tricks. nudge, wink, wink.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 15, 2017, 10:12:36 am
infos when? this week? next week?
I thought i would already see something (electronica 2017 started yesterday) but nothing on their website either
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 15, 2017, 10:16:28 am
few other tricks

Let me guess... floating inputs maybe (as extra)?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Faith on March 15, 2017, 10:18:53 am
My reaction on seeing:

Highlights:
1.25Gs/s with 4 channels on
10" 1280x800 touch screen
70, 100, 200 and 300 MHz (but no 50 Ohm input mode so 300MHz is quite useless)
10 bit ADC
10Mpts per channel (but it seems to be shared with the digital channels so caveat emptor)
Peak detect acquisition mode included
Protocol decoding and digital inputs optional

= :box:

Manual up already! I see 8 upgrade options..
1. Mixed signal option, additional 16 logic channels
2. Waveform generator and 4-bit pattern generator
3. Bandwith upgrades, 100 MHz, 200 MHz, 300 MHz
4. I2C triggering and decoding
5. UART/RS-232/RS-422/RS-485 triggering and decoding
6. CAN triggering and decoding
7. LIN triggering and decoding
8. History and segmented memory

= :scared:

Really though. This does look like a wonderful little pocket rocket of a scope and I really love that screen! But the last time I even attempted to look at a Rohde & Schwarz oscilloscope I simply couldn't get past how expensive the options were (especially once you look at the RTM line).

I always prefer to assume worst case scenario pricing since you don't always know what lies ahead in the future.

Keysight options aren't exactly cheap, but Rohde & Schwarz is in a completely different league. At least Keysight has the all-in-one application bundle which isn't actually too badly priced. Would really have to take a look at the full pricelist for the new RTB before I can decide how worthwhile it is to consider.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rachaelp on March 15, 2017, 10:22:23 am
Daniel likes to show off the added functionality of touch in his demonstrations and it's certainly better than voice control.

Voice control?  :scared:

That would be in the special EE version of hell.  :-DD
I think some of the high-end KS scopes have voice control. I can see how it would be useful in some niche situations, where all your hands are tied up holding sketchy probing arrangements.

Voice control in an engineering lab environment.... Just imagine all the colourful language the scope would have to be trained to "understand"....  :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 15, 2017, 10:28:18 am
At least Keysight has the all-in-one application bundle which isn't actually too badly priced. Would really have to take a look at the full pricelist for the new RTB before I can decide how worthwhile it is to consider.
R&S also do an app bundle - I linked to it earlier in this thread. OK value if you need most of it, but individual decodes, especially as UART & I2C+SPI are seperate options and crazy expensive.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Faith on March 15, 2017, 10:32:18 am
Voice control in an engineering lab environment.... Just imagine all the colourful language the scope would have to be trained to "understand"....  :-DD

As long as it doesn't respond, we'll be good :p

Silence is often the best cure in high stress environments. If the scope even thinks about responding with "don't shoot the messenger! I'm not to blame for displaying this crappy excuse of a signal!" then it goes straight out of the window >,<"...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Faith on March 15, 2017, 10:39:24 am
R&S also do an app bundle - I linked to it earlier in this thread. OK value if you need most of it, but individual decodes, especially as UART & I2C+SPI are seperate options and crazy expensive.

That's nice. How are R&S probe prices though?

I guess for the new RTB this shouldn't be too much of an issue since it doesn't have any active smart probe interface so anything goes; but when I did look at some of their active probes their prices were, ahem... and never mind active probes, the logic analyser probes too were insanely expensive.

And since R&S are relatively young in the market you don't have the same flood of parts on eBay which can occasionally be acquired for pretty decent prices.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nugglix on March 15, 2017, 10:46:27 am
And since R&S are relatively young in the market you don't have the same flood of parts on eBay which can occasionally be acquired for pretty decent prices.

How many decades are not young in the market for you?

And as already stated above, it seems to be of Hameg descent.
And Hameg is not so young I think.

The probes cost a fortune or two... but I think they're quite nice.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 15, 2017, 11:40:38 am
How many decades are not young in the market for you?

And as already stated above, it seems to be of Hameg descent.
And Hameg is not so young I think.

Hameg has been around since 1957, and Rohde & Schwarz since 1933.
Hameg was pretty late in making the transition to purely digital scopes though -- 2008 according to Wikipedia.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on March 15, 2017, 02:38:13 pm

Auto/norm button, LIKE! Not sure why more scopes don't have this as a simple toggle button, it is such a frequently used mode change.
The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.

Now why didn't I think of that?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on March 15, 2017, 02:45:39 pm
edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
 :palm:
If I remember correctly, the small box has the comparators in it, converting the sensed input signals into differential signals.
Ribbon cable has close to 100ohms impedance between neighbouring wires, so it is useable for differential signals like LVDS up to many 100MBits/s.
That is true but ribbon cable is the worse choice by far because the insulation is weak (melts quickly) and the wire strands are brittle.
And the particular connector shown in that photo will break after you pull it out half a dozen times.

(maybe you're only supposed to connect it once and leave it there)

It wouldn't be so bad if the cable was detachable from the magic box so you could replace it but they never are.

FWIW the Rigol MSO1074Z-S LA ribbon cable detaches at both ends.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 15, 2017, 03:06:14 pm

Auto/norm button, LIKE! Not sure why more scopes don't have this as a simple toggle button, it is such a frequently used mode change.
The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.

Now why didn't I think of that?
You never saw that button and wondered what it did...?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Asymmetric13 on March 15, 2017, 03:06:32 pm
I wonder if it would be possible (time available), presuming there is sufficient communal interest, for @EEVBlog / @mikeselectricstuff to conduct a full comparison between this new scope, the (seemingly) equivalently positioned Siglent that @tautech refers to and also the (presumably) similar GW Instek that @nctnico mentioned (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-announces-new-mso-2000/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-announces-new-mso-2000/). Alternatively/additionally perhaps there is enough knowledge of each product amongst contributors here to carry out such a comparison on a consolidated basis.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: salviador on March 15, 2017, 03:40:05 pm
I can't wait that Dave review mso !!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on March 15, 2017, 06:38:38 pm

Auto/norm button, LIKE! Not sure why more scopes don't have this as a simple toggle button, it is such a frequently used mode change.
The Keysight scopes have a "quick action" button that can be configured as auto/norm, which is how I have it.

Now why didn't I think of that?
You never saw that button and wondered what it did...?

Its function in earlier scopes was limited to things like saving and printing. The Quick Trigger is a relatively new option for that key.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Skagit on March 15, 2017, 10:16:53 pm
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.

Pretty decent savings.

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kwass on March 15, 2017, 10:35:10 pm
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.

Pretty decent savings.

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)

A bit less expensive at Tequipment with member discount: http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=rtb2k-com4&guid=91eba3a788cd4993988097219695d556&s=1&F_Suggestions=rtb2k-com4&F_OriginalKeyword=RTB2K-COM4.99 (http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=rtb2k-com4&guid=91eba3a788cd4993988097219695d556&s=1&F_Suggestions=rtb2k-com4&F_OriginalKeyword=RTB2K-COM4.99)

Looks great and a good price for all that, but I'd like to see a review (Dave's or otherwise) before further consideration.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 15, 2017, 11:05:07 pm
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.

Pretty decent savings.

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)
So basically the 300MHz model with all the options for slightly over US $2000.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 15, 2017, 11:08:59 pm
It's just marketing. As soon as one big player starts giving them away for free then they all will.

Until then?  People are paying money so... :-//

I got a new scope in my lab today that comes with free serial decode, and it's under $400.
It's started...
Sure, but it won't be a "professional" 'scope so it won't change anything.
The DS1054Z has had free serial decode for a while, too (nudge, nudge, wink, wink...)

Hacking the scope does not count.
By having Siglent say this low end scope now includes free serial decode out of the box, that still says a lot IMO.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 15, 2017, 11:33:10 pm
Hacking the scope does not count.
By having Siglent say this low end scope now includes free serial decode out of the box, that still says a lot IMO.
I don't see why hacking wouldn't count. In the end what counts is value for money. Besides that Siglent and Keysight both have almost ongoing special offers where you get the decoding for free. All in all doing decoding out of the box (which GW Instek did first on their GDS-2000E BTW) isn't really special.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ruairi on March 15, 2017, 11:33:36 pm
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.

Pretty decent savings.

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)

A bit less expensive at Tequipment with member discount: http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=rtb2k-com4&guid=91eba3a788cd4993988097219695d556&s=1&F_Suggestions=rtb2k-com4&F_OriginalKeyword=RTB2K-COM4.99 (http://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=rtb2k-com4&guid=91eba3a788cd4993988097219695d556&s=1&F_Suggestions=rtb2k-com4&F_OriginalKeyword=RTB2K-COM4.99)

Looks great and a good price for all that, but I'd like to see a review (Dave's or otherwise) before further consideration.

Does anyone know if you can use the EEVblog forum discount with the Tequipment member discount or is it one or the other?

This offer is hard to beat
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 15, 2017, 11:34:48 pm
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.

Pretty decent savings.

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)
So basically the 300MHz model with all the options for slightly over US $2000.

That is insanely good value. I almost wonder if it's an error. "while stocks last" on something that's just launched, and possibly not even actually available yet, seems odd.

At that price it would absolutely be a serious game-changer
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 16, 2017, 12:20:29 am
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.

Pretty decent savings.

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)
So basically the 300MHz model with all the options for slightly over US $2000.

That is insanely good value. I almost wonder if it's an error. "while stocks last" on something that's just launched, and possibly not even actually available yet, seems odd.

At that price it would absolutely be a serious game-changer
Hi Folks - as I said in the other thread, not too good to be true. All US and Canada partners can offer this deal. It is specific to US and Canada (sorry folks - other regions will have their own specials). It is a screaming deal - we wanted to give early adopters a fantastic deal.  We believe the scope is tops in its class, but the proof is in the pudding as they say, and we want a number of folks to get them in their hands early - we think they'll be pleased and will help build awareness around the scopes. 

All our partners that stock should have them on their shelf (or will shortly).

And the quantity is limited (first come first served!).

-Rich

Edit:  Deleted the quantity reference about it being "fairly large" - don't want to create misunderstanding that there are tons of launch edition units. 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kkessler on March 16, 2017, 12:26:54 am
Fyi, there's a promo at Testequity for a fully unlocked 4ch version for the price of the base 4ch model. While supplies last it looks.

Pretty decent savings.

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=45772)
So basically the 300MHz model with all the options for slightly over US $2000.

That is insanely good value. I almost wonder if it's an error. "while stocks last" on something that's just launched, and possibly not even actually available yet, seems odd.

At that price it would absolutely be a serious game-changer

I went ahead and ordered one, and it didn't balk at me saying it wasn't really available or anything.  If it is really a limited time offer, I figure if I don't like it, I can probably sell it used for what I paid for it.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AR on March 16, 2017, 12:35:35 am
Hello Mike ,

Have you been told when you will receive the scope, I am looking forward to your comparison with your Keysight unit.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 16, 2017, 12:40:35 am
Hello Mike ,

Have you been told when you will receive the scope, I am looking forward to your comparison with your Keysight unit.
Not yet but expecting to know any day - soon I think.
I just emailed my UK contact about the launch offer in Europe.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AR on March 16, 2017, 12:49:03 am
Mike are you tempted to get  one at these prices .
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 16, 2017, 12:58:23 am
Mike are you tempted to get  one at these prices .
If they hadn't already promised to send me one, and I didn't have the MSOX3104T, definitely.
At that price it's a total no-brainer.




 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 16, 2017, 01:35:31 am
I went to buy one at $2080 US. and yet again... FAIL  these guys can't ship to Canada.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 16, 2017, 01:42:14 am
I went to buy one at $2080 US. and yet again... FAIL  these guys can't ship to Canada.
Quote from: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA
All US and Canada partners can offer this deal.
Time to talk to your local friendly Canadian R&S dealer eh?.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 16, 2017, 02:25:31 am
Crosses fingers...

I have been looking for a high bandwidth scope able to handle very long serial decodes.  From the brochure this will do the job and all my wish list at that, for not much more than the Picoscope I was looking at.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 16, 2017, 02:30:35 am
The Keysight 3000X hacked to 1GHz for $4k is also attractive.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 16, 2017, 02:33:43 am
Crosses fingers...

I have been looking for a high bandwidth scope able to handle very long serial decodes.  From the brochure this will do the job and all my wish list at that, for not much more than the Picoscope I was looking at.
Hi irakandjii - just replied to your PM. For those looking in Canada, Test Force is our main partner there.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 16, 2017, 02:35:25 am
What abotu NZ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 16, 2017, 02:36:30 am
I went to buy one at $2080 US. and yet again... FAIL  these guys can't ship to Canada.

Looks like you will need to contact Testforce or R&H Canada(they claim to sell direct - perhaps only to large accounts though?)

Or find a US distributor that will ship to Canada, it might still be cheaper depending on the currency conversion they use.

At 2K USD with all options it does seem like a hell of a good deal.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 16, 2017, 03:55:18 am
Keysight_DanielBogdano  ... Check...

This is a really really good deal for $2k or so..  What can Keysight give me for the same money?  I was about to push go on ordering a 3000 series, and then this came along.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 16, 2017, 04:54:10 am
If Keysight responds I'd expect them to offer a great deal on a 200 MHz MSOX2000 series scope with the software bundle. If they do happen to offer something special with the 3000 series consider it though if the pricing is reasonable because of the smartprobe interface and builtin 50 ohm termination.

I'm looking forward to Dave and Mike's reviews/teardowns, general comments etc.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2017, 05:21:46 am
I went to buy one at $2080 US. and yet again... FAIL  these guys can't ship to Canada.

For a high end bit of kit, worth get it shipped to a US forwarding address?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2017, 05:23:03 am
I heard today that my unit is being organised. Mix up in Germany or something...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 16, 2017, 05:25:16 am
you'd need to do a comparions with a MSOX3034T or similar.. to match teh bandwitdth.

On paper i like the Keysight better but that scope at $2k is very appealing.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2017, 05:34:20 am
From Siglent (arguably the cheapest mid-range end scope maker) $2k buys you the Siglent SDS2304X 300MHz 4-Ch Digital Oscilloscope without MSO.
http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2304x.htm (http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2304x.htm)
Wow, an R&S scope is the same price as a Siglent, but you get MSO + 10 bit ADC + big high res touch screen.
 :o  :wtf:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on March 16, 2017, 05:43:12 am
I heard today that my unit is being organised. Mix up in Germany or something...

How to get them in Australia ?

Farnell/Element14 list them but no special !!

http://au.element14.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?pageSize=25&st=RTB2004&catalogId=15001&categoryId=800000019504&langId=43&storeId=10184 (http://au.element14.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?pageSize=25&st=RTB2004&catalogId=15001&categoryId=800000019504&langId=43&storeId=10184)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 16, 2017, 05:58:27 am
From Siglent (arguably the cheapest mid-range end scope maker) $2k buys you the Siglent SDS2304X 300MHz 4-Ch Digital Oscilloscope without MSO.
http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2304x.htm (http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2304x.htm)
Wow, an R&S scope is the same price as a Siglent, but you get MSO + 10 bit ADC + big high res touch screen.
 :o  :wtf:
:)

The Siglent kicks it's arse for memory depth and wfm/s, probably Pass/Fail too but whe'll have to wait for some proper reviews.
Put a bundle together with AVG, Decode and MSO and have another look at comparable pricing.  :scared:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on March 16, 2017, 06:26:27 am
If I have to choose between the Siglent or the Rohde & Schwarz, I would never choose the Siglent.

It may have more waveforms updates per second, but 50k for the R&S is enough (for me).
The R&S can go up to 160Mpts memory depth, which is more than the Siglent has.
Beside other things: the R&S comes with R&S quality and not with the Siglent rust.

Just my 2 cents.

Edit: Typos
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 16, 2017, 06:26:48 am
I took a strong look at the Siglent  about 3 weeks ago.  I liked them for price & features.  But when I asked North American support about the serial decoding capability.  I was told they did not have the equivalent of the segmented memory combined with the history feature that is on the RBT2004. (History lets me record for a very long time up to a week or so, CRAZY I can't imagine ever going that long..) and able to store the records in a file and subsequently reload the file later and decode / examine it again.

Siglent support stated I could only decode what was on the screen "current waveform".  According to the rep I could not save what I had and subsequently play it back & decode it again later.  For me that excluded the Siglent and a lot of other scopes as well.  Did I misunderstand the fellow?

BTW 
I like the Keysight 2000 until I realized I could only decode analog channels and could not display the MSO channels at the same time.  The 3000T does the thing but is out of my price range.  I could cross my fingers and hope to win a 4000x :-DD
I liked the Rigol 2000A series but the decode function was similar to the Siglent and I felt I needed 4 analog channels so it fell off the rails.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2017, 06:50:47 am
Siglent support stated I could only decode what was on the screen "current waveform".  According to the rep I could not save what I had and subsequently play it back & decode it again later.  For me that excluded the Siglent and a lot of other scopes as well.  Did I misunderstand the fellow?

The new Siglent low end scope (not released) does decode on the entire memory, it's one of their marketing highlights.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2017, 06:53:41 am
From Siglent (arguably the cheapest mid-range end scope maker) $2k buys you the Siglent SDS2304X 300MHz 4-Ch Digital Oscilloscope without MSO.
http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2304x.htm (http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2304x.htm)
Wow, an R&S scope is the same price as a Siglent, but you get MSO + 10 bit ADC + big high res touch screen.
 :o  :wtf:
:)

The Siglent kicks it's arse for memory depth and wfm/s, probably Pass/Fail too but whe'll have to wait for some proper reviews.
Put a bundle together with AVG, Decode and MSO and have another look at comparable pricing.  :scared:

I just did.
Both are circa $2k.
The R&S comes with so much more it's not even comparable.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on March 16, 2017, 06:59:52 am
Wow, an R&S scope is the same price as a Siglent, but you get MSO + 10 bit ADC + big high res touch screen.
 :o  :wtf:

I think R&S has essentially just said to the other manufacturers: "It's on like Donkey Kong!"

This new wave of oscilloscope wars is heating up quick. Good times. :popcorn:

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 16, 2017, 07:09:46 am
This new wave of oscilloscope wars is heating up quick. Good times. :popcorn:

But The One has not arrived :P R&S has no onboard analysis (wfm math only +-*/) to speak of and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K), meaning it probably has little processing power. It cannot do many things that 5x cheaper scopes can. So user has really understand requirements.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 16, 2017, 07:51:40 am
I think the lack of math functions does suck a bit, I've come to appreciate the integrate function on the keysight :|
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 16, 2017, 08:10:46 am
The R&S can go up to 160Mpts memory depth, which is more than the Siglent has.
I think that's across all channels, i.e. 10M/channel max
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 16, 2017, 08:33:51 am
The Siglent kicks it's arse for memory depth and wfm/s, probably Pass/Fail too but whe'll have to wait for some proper reviews.
Put a bundle together with AVG, Decode and MSO and have another look at comparable pricing.  :scared:

I dont like the way teh Siglent sales folks go on and on an on. So i'm crossing it off the list for non technical reasons.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 16, 2017, 08:36:56 am
Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
Hopefully this is a glitch pending it being in stock.

http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on March 16, 2017, 08:53:07 am
Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
Hopefully this is a glitch pending it being in stock.

http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

It's available in Australia as well but no where near the 2K USD deal :(

http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nazcalines on March 16, 2017, 08:54:44 am
The Siglent kicks it's arse for memory depth and wfm/s, probably Pass/Fail too but whe'll have to wait for some proper reviews.
Put a bundle together with AVG, Decode and MSO and have another look at comparable pricing.  :scared:

I dont like the way teh Siglent sales folks go on and on an on. So i'm crossing it off the list for non technical reasons.

Yeah, I automatically ignore all siglent new releases/etc and would never consider their gear because of this guy. If I were siglent, I'd reassess my marketing strategy.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 16, 2017, 08:55:40 am
I dont like the way teh Siglent sales folks go on and on an on. So i'm crossing it off the list for non technical reasons.

Dont be too harsh on him, he's a born fighter :box: and probably goes thru a lot with almost simultaneous releases from many brands while he's ordered to keep it down with 2 hands :P
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Someone on March 16, 2017, 08:58:54 am
Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
Hopefully this is a glitch pending it being in stock.

http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

It's available in Australia as well but no where near the 2K USD deal :(

http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
To avoid people needing to follow the link (which is fragile), thats the full package 4ch 300MHz loaded bundle for $5,176.88 AUD, plus tax. Very "special" deal for Australians.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 16, 2017, 09:01:24 am
This new wave of oscilloscope wars is heating up quick. Good times. :popcorn:
But The One has not arrived :P R&S has no onboard analysis (wfm math only +-*/) to speak of and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K), meaning it probably has little processing power. It cannot do many things that 5x cheaper scopes can. So user has really understand requirements.
I think the low amount of processing power is what will kill Keysight, R&S and Tektronix scopes if they don't catch on. There is so much more you can do with an oscilloscope which has a lot of processing power because it has the ability to analyse large amounts of samples quickly.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Andrey_irk on March 16, 2017, 09:06:28 am
Given the input impedance of the RTB of 1 MOhm + 9pf, if one adds a 50 Ohm terminator it will give about 27Ohms of input impedance on 300MHz signal. So, the input signal will be roughly 3dB lower. Then there is an impact of the scope itself. Unless the input capacitance is really lower than advertised, it will be impossible to get 300MHz this way.

Which probes come with the 300MHz version?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 16, 2017, 09:34:12 am
[...] and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K) [...]

How is 128k sub standard?
What standard?

It's more than all of the InfiniiVision models if memory serves, and I was also under the impression that R&S FFT is pretty good with RBW settings etc.

Edit: I was wrong, enhanced goes up to 1Mpts FFT (e.g. 6000X)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 16, 2017, 09:35:37 am
Which probes come with the 300MHz version?

Just researched that.  :)  According to the Test Equity page here

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/#tabgroup (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/#tabgroup)

at the very bottom:

Included with RTB2002, RTB2004: RT-ZP03 passive voltage probes (one per channel) and power cord.

Then looking those up in the Options & Accessories tab on that page:
    
Rohde & Schwarz RT-ZP03.02 Passive Probe
Single-ended, 300 MHz/10MHz,, 10:1/1:1, 10 meg/1 meg, 400 V, 12 pF/82 pF (3622.2817.02)
ITEM #: 045701.W


...and they are priced at $100 each.  So $400 worth of probes at list price.

Lol, I'm starting to think that for this kind of a deal I could get used to that single set of vertical controls after all.  8)  The thing I care about most for what I do is viewing very low level signals.  The 10 bit ADC with 1mV/div over the full measurement bandwidth and claimed low-noise front end in this thing might be just the ticket.

Here is a R&S brochure I dug up about the ADC and front end, 4th page down:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf)    (opens PDF)

Interesting to compare that to a knock-down of HRO scopes from 2013 from Tek:

http://www.tek.com/blog/not-so-high-high-resolution (http://www.tek.com/blog/not-so-high-high-resolution)

Sounds like the world may have changed a bit since then by maintaining the 1mV across the entire bandwidth, combined with a lower noise front end.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 16, 2017, 09:44:18 am
Which probes come with the 300MHz version?

Just researched that.  :)  According to the Test Equity page here

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/#tabgroup (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/#tabgroup)

at the very bottom:

Included with RTB2002, RTB2004: RT-ZP03 passive voltage probes (one per channel) and power cord.

Then looking those up in the Options & Accessories tab on that page:
    
Rohde & Schwarz RT-ZP03.02 Passive Probe
Single-ended, 300 MHz/10MHz,, 10:1/1:1, 10 M?/1 M?, 400 V, 12 pF/82 pF (3622.2817.02)
ITEM #: 045701.W


...and they are priced at $100 each.  So $400 worth of probes at list price.

Lol, I'm starting to think that for this kind of a deal I could get used to that single set of vertical controls after all.  8)  The thing I care about most for what I do is viewing very low level signals.  The 10 bit ADC and claimed low-noise front end in this thing might be just the ticket.
I do wonder if you really get all 10 bits at 1mv/div, especially as it's not bandwidth-limited
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 16, 2017, 09:57:04 am
Do we all agree here that the R&S scope has a bit of an industrial look?

Why did they shave off the corners? Doesn't make it look nicer at all. On the contrary =)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 16, 2017, 10:46:15 am
How is 128k sub standard? What standard?

State-of-the-art in 2017 A.D.
Many analog-stuff oriented scopes starting from GWI GDS-1054B (5x cheaper than wet dream offer from R&S) have 1M FFT (and complex math!). So unless you (almost) don't need FFT - below 1M is substandard, sorry  :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 16, 2017, 10:58:11 am
Do we all agree here that the R&S scope has a bit of an industrial look?

No.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2017, 11:00:18 am
I do wonder if you really get all 10 bits at 1mv/div, especially as it's not bandwidth-limited

You'll get'em, nobody said anything about useful   ;D
The wider the bandwidth the greater the noise floor.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 16, 2017, 11:07:06 am
Do we all agree here that the R&S scope has a bit of an industrial look?
Do we care?  :P
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rf-loop on March 16, 2017, 11:09:20 am
The R&S can go up to 160Mpts memory depth, which is more than the Siglent has.
I think that's across all channels, i.e. 10M/channel max

Without  doubt R&S is higher class scope. I do not want make it questionable. Also personally I have been tens of years R&S fan when talk T&M (older) "Rolls Royces"

I do not know what Siglent here is now "compared". ( I do not want compare apples and oranges)
But  also I do not like "alternative truths aka trumpling".
R&S this machine here have  max 10M for all channels simultaneously and 20M for channel (not interleaved)

Siglent
SDS2000 have max 35M for all channels simultaneously and 70M for channel not interleaved. 4ch models have 2x70M
SDS2000X   max 70M for all channels simultaneously and 140M for channel not interleaved. 4ch models have 2x140M

For segmented memory acq there is available up to 180M (least in SDS2000, just checked)
Max speed 500 ksegment/s.

Example (checked w SDS2304: 4ch on. 1us/div 1GSa/s. Segment length 14k for every channel. 3323 segment  4x14000x3323= ~186 Msample.   
(Maximum memory for history/segments is not available with all t/div and segment sizes.)

For waveform history same amount as segmented. (R&S and Siglent have this very nice feature)
waveform history buffer works just same speed what is current wfm/s speed in use (up to 140kwfm/s)

just for right facts, not like this is better etc...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 16, 2017, 11:47:36 am
[...] and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K) [...]

How is 128k sub standard?
What standard?

It's more than all of the InfiniiVision models if memory serves, and I was also under the impression that R&S FFT is pretty good with RBW settings etc.

Edit: I was wrong, enhanced goes up to 1Mpts FFT (e.g. 6000X)
At what speed? An Agilent DSO7104A can also do 128kpts if you have the time to wait several seconds for each FFT calculation. With many points and quick updates FFT becomes a useful tool instead of a gimmick. The problem with FFT in a scope is that the frequency resolution depends on the samplerate (and thus the timebase). The more FFT points you have the less you have to worry about the timebase (seconds/div) setting.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2017, 12:31:00 pm
The R&S can go up to 160Mpts memory depth, which is more than the Siglent has.
I think that's across all channels, i.e. 10M/channel max

Without  doubt R&S is higher class scope. I do not want make it questionable. Also personally I have been tens of years R&S fan when talk T&M (older) "Rolls Royces"

I do not know what Siglent here is now "compared". ( I do not want compare apples and oranges)
But  also I do not like "alternative truths aka trumpling".
R&S this machine here have  max 10M for all channels simultaneously and 20M for channel (not interleaved)

Siglent
SDS2000 have max 35M for all channels simultaneously and 70M for channel not interleaved. 4ch models have 2x70M
SDS2000X   max 70M for all channels simultaneously and 140M for channel not interleaved. 4ch models have 2x140M

For segmented memory acq there is available up to 180M (least in SDS2000, just checked)
Max speed 500 ksegment/s.

Example (checked w SDS2304: 4ch on. 1us/div 1GSa/s. Segment length 14k for every channel. 3323 segment  4x14000x3323= ~186 Msample.   
(Maximum memory for history/segments is not available with all t/div and segment sizes.)

For waveform history same amount as segmented. (R&S and Siglent have this very nice feature)
waveform history buffer works just same speed what is current wfm/s speed in use (up to 140kwfm/s)

just for right facts, not like this is better etc...

Why quibble over memory when the R&S has a 10 bit ADC + a big hi-res touch screen + MSO for the same price as the Siglent?
As I see it, at the special R&S launch pricing it's no contest, you'd be mad to buy the Siglent unless it has something very specific you absolutely needed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on March 16, 2017, 12:31:13 pm
I do wonder if you really get all 10 bits at 1mv/div, especially as it's not bandwidth-limited

You'll get'em, nobody said anything about useful   ;D
The wider the bandwidth the greater the noise floor.

Tek 8 bit scope verses Agilent 12 bit scope. It's not all about the bits !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYV7HOv4z_U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYV7HOv4z_U)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 16, 2017, 01:15:55 pm
Hi Folks,

Wow.  That's what I get for going to bed.  Lots of questions.  I'll see if I can answer a number of them that I saw above.

Q.  Does the ADC run at 10-bits even at 1mV/div?
A.  Yes.  You also get full bandwidth.  The scope also has very good noise for this class of instrument.

Q.  What is the FFT record length?
A.  I believe it is 128Kpts, but I'll double check to be certain.

There are also a lot of questions around the Launch Edition.  Just to clarify, it is an amazing deal, but the quantity is limited and when the Launch Edition is gone, it's gone.  That's why it says "while supplies last".  As I mentioned before, we wanted to create excitement and encourage early adopters. 

And finally - thank you everyone for the questions and the excitement. I'll do my best to keep up.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 16, 2017, 01:25:03 pm
I do wonder if you really get all 10 bits at 1mv/div, especially as it's not bandwidth-limited
You'll get'em, nobody said anything about useful   ;D
The wider the bandwidth the greater the noise floor.
Tek 8 bit scope verses Agilent 12 bit scope. It's not all about the bits !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYV7HOv4z_U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYV7HOv4z_U)
Interesting video but the GDS-2204E can achieve the same using input filtering. In a project I'm currently working on this has been very useful to catch low amplitude signals while the actual signal is swamped with noise.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 16, 2017, 02:18:23 pm
This new wave of oscilloscope wars is heating up quick. Good times. :popcorn:

But The One has not arrived :P R&S has no onboard analysis (wfm math only +-*/) to speak of and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K), meaning it probably has little processing power. It cannot do many things that 5x cheaper scopes can. So user has really understand requirements.

I noticed the rudimentary math available in this scope too.  It is still a bit unclear to me what I would be giving up if I acquired this scope.  The other scope I am considering is the Picoscope 3405D MSO which we discussed in another thread.  The Picos have a really rich math functions and more memory but significantly less bandwidth & sample rate. 

Is there a thread, or other resource I can reference that would educate me on the uses / value of the math functions?  So I can better understand the puts and takes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 16, 2017, 02:35:59 pm

I'll do my best to keep up.


OK, here are a few feedback points for your product planners:

1. Probe sensing and 50 Ohm input go a long way to make the RTB the king of the hill in this segment. This "miss" is a hard-stop since it requires hardware. It's strange R&S decided to cap it there. You've come so far, why not the extra couple of resistors and a few more lines of code in the firmware to make it impossible to resist?

2. FFT's are commonplace in entry scopes now. To be truly useful, FFTs need adjustable scale ranges and peak and harmonic markers. R&S make some of the best spectrum analyzers so they know how to do this perhaps better than anyone else. So the way this has been implemented on the RTO and RTE scopes is truly excellent. A simpler version on the RTB (just like Quick Measure which is on all R&S scopes) would be truly icing on the cake. I would gladly take a 32Kpts FFT with markers over a 1Mpts without markers any day of the week.

3. One last point - make rubber corner bumpers and DC input an option so the RTB can be used on- and off-the bench.

Just a few ideas to turn this into the irresistible $2K king of the hill, and possibly, even the king of the road. Good luck.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 16, 2017, 02:42:46 pm
I don't know, the sales brochure claims you have 'seamless integration' to e.g. MATLAB which in my book means I'm not too worried about the basic math after all. It also seems 'advanced' math is really a feature you'll get from R&S' RTE and RTO models (=much more expensive scopes). BUT: there is very little explanation as to what that actually means and how useful it is.

Quote
Connectivity
The R&S®RTB2000 can be directly connected to a PC via the built-in USB host and USB device ports. The USB host transfers screenshots or instrument settings to a USB stick. Media transfer protocol (MTP) implementation ensures seamless integration. The USB device port and the LAN interface also enable remote control. The built-in web server functionality allows users to control the oscilloscope and display their screen content to an audience. Data and programming interfaces are included, e.g. for seamless MATLAB® integration.

from page 11 - https://cdn.testequity.com/documents/pdf/rs/RTB2000-brochure.pdf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: biot on March 16, 2017, 02:43:21 pm
There are also a lot of questions around the Launch Edition.  Just to clarify, it is an amazing deal, but the quantity is limited and when the Launch Edition is gone, it's gone.  That's why it says "while supplies last".  As I mentioned before, we wanted to create excitement and encourage early adopters. 

So are we going to get that deal in Europe as well?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 16, 2017, 03:06:16 pm

I'll do my best to keep up.


OK, here are a few feedback points for your product planners:

1. Probe sensing and 50 Ohm input go a long way to make the RTB the king of the hill in this segment. This "miss" is a hard-stop since it requires hardware. It's strange R&S decided to cap it there. You've come so far, why not the extra couple of resistors and a few more lines of code in the firmware to make it impossible to resist?

2. FFT's are commonplace in entry scopes now. To be truly useful, FFTs need adjustable scale ranges and peak and harmonic markers. R&S make some of the best spectrum analyzers so they know how to do this perhaps better than anyone else. So the way this has been implemented on the RTO and RTE scopes is truly excellent. A simpler version on the RTB (just like Quick Measure which is on all R&S scopes) would be truly icing on the cake. I would gladly take a 32Kpts FFT with markers over a 1Mpts without markers any day of the week.

3. One last point - make rubber corner bumpers and DC input an option so the RTB can be used on- and off-the bench.

Just a few ideas to turn this into the irresistible $2K king of the hill, and possibly, even the king of the road. Good luck.
Greatly appreciate the feedback and I'll pass it on to our planners.  And while the RTB doesn't offer a peak search capability for the FFT, you can always use cursors to track the spectrum and read out the XY parameters on the spectrum.  Not exactly the same, but does offer some additional insight beyond the markings we put in the graticule.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 16, 2017, 03:38:06 pm
And while the RTB doesn't offer a peak search capability for the FFT, you can always use cursors to track the spectrum and read out the XY parameters on the spectrum.  Not exactly the same, but does offer some additional insight beyond the markings we put in the graticule.

This is what I am talking about. It is an FFT from a UPV analyzing an AC inverter waveform. The RTB2K can easily do this and more, and present it the same clear, R&S way. How hard can it be when you already have the code?

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 16, 2017, 04:22:41 pm
OK, here are a few feedback points for your product planners:

1. Probe sensing and 50 Ohm input go a long way to make the RTB the king of the hill in this segment. This "miss" is a hard-stop since it requires hardware. It's strange R&S decided to cap it there. You've come so far, why not the extra couple of resistors and a few more lines of code in the firmware to make it impossible to resist?

2. FFT's are commonplace in entry scopes now. To be truly useful, FFTs need adjustable scale ranges and peak and harmonic markers. R&S make some of the best spectrum analyzers so they know how to do this perhaps better than anyone else. So the way this has been implemented on the RTO and RTE scopes is truly excellent. A simpler version on the RTB (just like Quick Measure which is on all R&S scopes) would be truly icing on the cake. I would gladly take a 32Kpts FFT with markers over a 1Mpts without markers any day of the week.

3. One last point - make rubber corner bumpers and DC input an option so the RTB can be used on- and off-the bench.

Just a few ideas to turn this into the irresistible $2K king of the hill, and possibly, even the king of the road. Good luck.

Real world alert:  :P
R&S are selling more than this one scope product. And they probably want to continue selling their much more expensive high-end scopes, and their expensive spectrum analysers as well. I am pretty sure the product planners have thought about this, and have intentionally limited the RTB scope in some respects -- not just to cut costs, but also to maintain differentiation for the high-end products.

I like the corner bumper idea: Since this still a reasonably compact DSO, it would lend itself to being lugged around. If the bumpers can be designed to hide the beveled corners, they might even make pascal_sweden happy  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 16, 2017, 04:46:00 pm
Fairly long demo video here - in Polish with annoying music but with the sound down& you should get an idea of responsiveness etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlsPaAF6Zuk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlsPaAF6Zuk)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 16, 2017, 04:51:37 pm
Also, the guy needs an anti-peh filter really bad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_4qPmRMrRQ&t=39s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_4qPmRMrRQ&t=39s)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KE5FX on March 16, 2017, 04:58:38 pm
This is what I am talking about. It is an FFT from a UPV analyzing an AC inverter waveform. The RTB2K can easily do this and more, and present it the same clear, R&S way. How hard can it be when you already have the code?

How many pixels are in that screenshot you took?  About three million?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 16, 2017, 05:02:17 pm

How many pixels are in that screenshot you took?  About three million?


1920 x 1200 = 2,304,000 pixels.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KE5FX on March 16, 2017, 05:07:51 pm
1920 x 1200 = 2,304,000 pixels.

Right, and it already looks crowded to the point of being nearly illegible.  The scope has less than half as many pixels to work with.  It also has to support various other UI elements that the desktop application can hide in other menus or windows.

Figuring out where to put all of those markers and labels is not trivial when you're designing a UI for a dedicated instrument like this.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 16, 2017, 05:15:12 pm
R&S are selling more than this one scope product. And they probably want to continue selling their much more expensive high-end scopes, and their expensive spectrum analysers as well. I am pretty sure the product planners have thought about this, and have intentionally limited the RTB scope in some respects -- not just to cut costs, but also to maintain differentiation for the high-end products.

I hear you.

My thinking is that R&S bought HAMEG for good reasons. Along with the RTB, they re-badged 2 former HAMEG products, the NGE PSU and FPC SA. Also for good reasons. And perhaps one of those good reasons would be to find some new customers who are only looking to pay a mere fraction of what R&S usually sells their products for.

The trick to survive in this new business for R&S is very different than the traditional business they know. Different rules, different speed, different tactics. The "Launch Edition" trial balloon will let them know how low they need to go in price, and if they stuff the RTB with more FFT and math functions, perhaps they will also find out what the feature set tolerance level is. They will need to be very aggressive in both to succeed - and keep all their factories busy.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 16, 2017, 05:24:57 pm

Right, and it already looks crowded to the point of being nearly illegible.  The scope has less than half as many pixels to work with.  It also has to support various other UI elements that the desktop application can hide in other menus or windows.

Figuring out where to put all of those markers and labels is not trivial when you're designing a UI for a dedicated instrument like this.


The UPV has a screen size smaller than the RTB at 800 x 600 vs 1280 x 800. Yet its analyzer can go all the way to display the 100th harmonic. Its saving grace is that it is Windows based and hence built in flexibility. For the RTB with no video out, it does not have to implement all 100 harmonics but some subset would still be very helpful. On the RTM, the NEXT and PREV markers implementation is very nicely done, and it definitely is not crowded.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 16, 2017, 06:11:04 pm
Fairly long demo video here - in Polish with annoying music but with the sound down& you should get an idea of responsiveness etc.

Very helpful!  I had a laugh when they artificially limited the ADC to 8 bits. Reminded me of 8-bit video games.  :)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 16, 2017, 06:32:04 pm
I would gladly take a 32Kpts FFT with markers over a 1Mpts without markers any day of the week.
You don't have to make that compromise. Still screen real estate is limited on a small DSO so there have to be some limits to what can be displayed.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 16, 2017, 07:02:51 pm
You don't have to make that compromise. Still screen real estate is limited on a small DSO so there have to be some limits to what can be displayed.

Thank you. My point exactly.

This ain't rocket science and R&S has plenty of expertise and experience in-house finding the best way to do this. Attached is an R&S DOS-based 640x480 8K FFT - very primitive by today's standards for sure but it is still easy to interpret and more useful than counting DIVs without markers or having to fiddle with cursors.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Carrington on March 16, 2017, 07:06:10 pm
Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
...
:(
That is what I feel too when some countries are left out of the game.
But wait, I know, it's due to legal limitations ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 16, 2017, 07:13:00 pm
Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
...

Maybe that's due to the fact that R&S (and Hameg) already are quite well-known in Europe as a scope brand, but feel that they need a bigger splash to gain some visibility in the US market?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: edavid on March 16, 2017, 08:44:49 pm
There are also a lot of questions around the Launch Edition.  Just to clarify, it is an amazing deal, but the quantity is limited and when the Launch Edition is gone, it's gone.  That's why it says "while supplies last".

Does that really work?  Your customers will know that you were able to go that low.  Won't they just say "I don't care if it's expired, I want the same deal, or I'll buy Keysight"?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 16, 2017, 09:04:24 pm
Another vid, from Brazil this time...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlN9cl6nmlQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlN9cl6nmlQ)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 16, 2017, 10:29:17 pm
I just noticed this scope does not seem to have a "persistence" mode in the display.  Am I missing something? 

If it is not there, is this a significant issue?  I am still not really sure how useful it is, but it seems to be a big talking point on competitive scopes.  So some real advice would be useful.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ruairi on March 16, 2017, 11:00:39 pm
I just noticed this scope does not seem to have a "persistence" mode in the display.  Am I missing something? 

If it is not there, is this a significant issue?  I am still not really sure how useful it is, but it seems to be a big talking point on competitive scopes.  So some real advice would be useful.

A quick search of the manual says it has persistence controls as you'd expect.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 17, 2017, 12:13:34 am
I just noticed this scope does not seem to have a "persistence" mode in the display.  Am I missing something? 

If it is not there, is this a significant issue?  I am still not really sure how useful it is, but it seems to be a big talking point on competitive scopes.  So some real advice would be useful.

A quick search of the manual says it has persistence controls as you'd expect.

Doh.. oh yes right there under intensity ... thank you!

ok that's it I'm going to bed.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2017, 12:26:27 am
Just been having a more detailed look through the manual.
Some unusual features :

USB - can be configured as
TMC ( test/measure class - like most scopes)
VCP - COM port for SCPI commands via terminal  - no LXI drivers etc.needed  just so send some simple commands
Mass Storage - scope appears as a drive on the PC

Grid can be made to track the waveform as you scroll. Could be really handy for manually decoding serial protocols - keeping timeslots in a consistent place.
Time/Voltage values shown on every grid line ( optional)

1gbit ethernet - appears to support live screen updates via web interface. (Even mentions using a RasPi to do it for low-cost HDMI output! (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Project_ac_en_3607-3239_92_v0100.pdf))

Colour intensity modes, and  inverse mode - infrequent signals show up more brightly - sounds really useful for catching occasional glitches etc.

Simultaneous XY and waveform display, and XYY to display 2 Y axes ( 3-phase?)

Defaults to 50mS persistance  ( can be turned off) I noticed this in the Polish demo, Not sure how I feel about that - wondering if it's to hide something in zero-persistence mode.

Envelope acquisition mode - think I'll have to see it to understand if useful

Adjustable hysteresis on trigger input

"set to trace"  for manual cursors - sets cursors to one cycle/ peak-peak of current trace

Adjustable front-panel LED brightness

Obvious omissions :
No Nth-edge burst or runt pulse trigger
No integration/difference maths function 
No event search ( never used it myself but I can see how could be useful)
No foreign language help, only menus etc. ( expect that may get done at some point)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 17, 2017, 12:52:51 am
Exactlty like Altium, PNP machines and anything that costs more than $1000..   I always go and look for the best deal they have done and that sets the price that i'm prepared to pay.   

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kwass on March 17, 2017, 02:28:59 am
Just been having a more detailed look through the manual.
.......
Obvious omissions :
No Nth-edge burst or runt pulse trigger
No integration/difference maths function 
No event search ( never used it myself but I can see how could be useful)
No foreign language help, only menus etc. ( expect that may get done at some point)

I saw runt pulse triggering in one of the documents (there are many) on their site, same for event search.  Math/s functions do seem limited however.  I've found from my reading and demo watching (there are series of app demos on their site too) that there's much that is in this scope that's not in the current version of the manual.

Here's the trigger system document that says it has runt pulse triggering:  https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/service_support_30/RTH_Faster_ac_en_3607-3339-92_v0100.pdf

Search is front panel button and is mentioned under the "Analysis Controls" section in the user manual:

Quote

SEARCH

Enables the search with the last configured setup. The second keypress opens the
"Search" menu, where you can perform a search for various events in an acquisition -
for example, peaks or specific width conditions - and analyze the search results.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on March 17, 2017, 04:51:37 am
Looks like this R&S scope has stolen the limelight away from Keysights new offering. Maybe saving your money and getting a 'real' scope was good advice from Keysight ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on March 17, 2017, 06:14:22 am
Looks like this R&S scope has stolen the limelight away from Keysights new offering. Maybe saving your money and getting a 'real' scope was good advice from Keysight ;)
The R&S scope isn't competing with Keysight's new scope, so they probably aren't getting the same people's interest.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 17, 2017, 06:46:50 am
Looks like this R&S scope has stolen the limelight away from Keysights new offering. Maybe saving your money and getting a 'real' scope was good advice from Keysight ;)
The R&S scope isn't competing with Keysight's new scope, so they probably aren't getting the same people's interest.

No but its competing with their other scopes,  ( like the 3000X
Title: Quantifying the noise floor
Post by: agdr on March 17, 2017, 07:11:56 am

Q.  Does the ADC run at 10-bits even at 1mV/div?
A.  Yes.  You also get full bandwidth.  The scope also has very good noise for this class of instrument.


Rich, could you get the lab to quantify that at 100Mhz and the 300MHz of the RTB2004 sales special?  I was just leafing through the 6000 series Keysight website and noticed they do, below.  115 uVrms noise floor at 1mV/div at 1GHz BW.  I've searched through the RTB200o0 datasheet here

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_dat-sw_en_3607-4270-22_v0400.pdf (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_dat-sw_en_3607-4270-22_v0400.pdf)   (opens PDF)

and I'm not finding the number in the vertical section.

Thanks!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 17, 2017, 07:23:23 am

I saw runt pulse triggering in one of the documents (there are many) on their site, same for event search.  Math/s functions do seem limited however.  I've found from my reading and demo watching (there are series of app demos on their site too) that there's much that is in this scope that's not in the current version of the manual.

Here's the trigger system document that says it has runt pulse triggering:  https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/service_support_30/RTH_Faster_ac_en_3607-3339-92_v0100.pdf

I think, judging by the link name, that's for a different scope (the RTH series)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on March 17, 2017, 07:28:36 am
Looks like this R&S scope has stolen the limelight away from Keysights new offering. Maybe saving your money and getting a 'real' scope was good advice from Keysight ;)
The R&S scope isn't competing with Keysight's new scope, so they probably aren't getting the same people's interest.

No but its competing with their other scopes,  ( like the 3000X
Uh, yeah, that's what new products are supposed to do. They tend to fail miserably if they don't.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 17, 2017, 08:37:10 am
Looks like this R&S scope has stolen the limelight away from Keysights new offering. Maybe saving your money and getting a 'real' scope was good advice from Keysight ;)

Half an order of magnitude price difference.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nfmax on March 17, 2017, 08:57:52 am
Looks like this R&S scope has stolen the limelight away from Keysights new offering. Maybe saving your money and getting a 'real' scope was good advice from Keysight ;)

Half an order of magnitude price difference.

I make it 13dB more expensive
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2017, 09:21:59 am
Just got an answer from the UK guy re, Europe. Looks like it's time to look at reshippers.
Looks like distributors didn't want to upset their other suppliers.
Quote
I investigated into this, and this was promotion was offered to our European distributors as well. But none of them were ready to take this on (it's beyond me why). The closet we got is with Farnell who have this going on currently,

http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2004+COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2004+COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

So, for the price of a 300MHz model, all the options all included free of charge. It's never to say that we will not have the same deal in Europe as we run promotions every 6 months. So watch this space.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on March 17, 2017, 09:27:59 am
There has to be some anti-competitive laws against that  :--
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2017, 09:34:01 am
There has to be some anti-competitive laws against that  :--
Hard to see how. Farnell are offering a bundle with all options for price of 300MHz model. Others just chose not to offer the promotion.
Just simple business - they make more margin  on more expensive models and competing units than a  bargain-basement special.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2017, 09:39:25 am
If anyone does investigate reshipping, please post your experience here.
I have asked about the warranty position.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AR on March 17, 2017, 09:43:14 am
I don't know if this has clearly been stated this anywhere  but the MAX FFT sample size is 10M and not 128k on the RTB2000 series . I confirmed this with the local R&S branch today.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 17, 2017, 09:59:40 am
I don't know if this has clearly been stated this anywhere  but the MAX FFT sample size is 10M and not 128k on the RTB2000 series . I confirmed this with the local R&S branch today.

Screenshot with zoom on "impossible" details or I dont buy it. It might be 10M is maximum recordset of samples, based on what it does FFT with 128K bins.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: dr.diesel on March 17, 2017, 10:35:59 am
Just ordered the 2004 Promotional deal from TEq. 

The Rigol mso4000 couldn't knock my old trusty TDS210 off the bench, maybe this one can.   :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 17, 2017, 12:10:41 pm
The only thing left that bothers me is the lack of 50 ohm inputs and I think i have not thought this through before.

Is a feed through terminator really sufficient?
What a out noise from the 1M. Will this work well enough with active probes that support generic 50ohm ? How woul I compensate such a scenario?

200-300MHz is not really low frequency in my eyes. You can easily get into trouble by just measuring the output of a fast EXOR gate.

Or is this a case of using the wrong tool (I.e.  improper bandwidth scope)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 17, 2017, 12:22:33 pm
The only reference I can find for the RTB2004 included items states 300 Mhz probes for the scope.  The manual indicates you should have 1.5X the bandwidth as a minimum probe specification.

Can Rich or anyone else confirm what actually comes with the 300 Mhz version of this scope?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on March 17, 2017, 12:40:09 pm
I often re-ship stuff from the US. Now one of my re-shippers actually have a 7-14 day shipping option taking cost down a lot for across the pond (www.myus.com (http://www.myus.com))

Before they had only 4-7 day options at about 2-3 times the price. And you only pay per TRUE KG and not for volumetric measurement. I have 15 Lbs of defective Keysight N67xx power modules going that way at the moment. And I might add an R&S scope to that pile :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 17, 2017, 12:43:33 pm
I too was worried about the 50 ohm termination issue (lack of knowledge).  I did a search and found this information.

http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/101634/terminating-a-50-ohm-source-into-1m-ohm-oscilloscope-input (http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/101634/terminating-a-50-ohm-source-into-1m-ohm-oscilloscope-input)

"If you don't have access to a 50 ohm feedthrough terminator, a T-connector with a 50 ohm termination should work just as well. This was standard practice at my old company when we used external hall-effect current probes with our 1M ohm scopes.
(Aside: I personally prefer using external 50? terminators even if the scope supports 50 ohm : they're usually capable of handling more power, and if you accidentally hook up something incorrectly, at least you're blowing an inexpensive and easily-replaceable component vs. necessitating a potentially expensive scope repair!)"

This was what I thought from my university days .. some 40 odd years ago.  That being said, knowledge and technical practice march on.  Is there something wrong with using the "good old" 50 ohm Tee connector?  Is there a practical impact?
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 17, 2017, 12:47:12 pm
Try to look at the info from the folks who actually sell them (e.g. Tequipment.net):

Quote
What's In The Box

(1) RTB2004 Digital oscilloscope (70 MHz 4 channel)
(1) RTB-B243 Upgrade of R&S RTB2004 oscilloscope to 300 MHz bandwidth
(1) RTB-B1 Mixed Signal Upgrade for non-MSO models (250 MHz)
(1) RTB-B6 ARB Generator
(1) RTB-K1 I2C/SPI Trigger and Decode
(1) RTB-K2 UART/RS232 Trigger and Decode
(1) RTB-K3 CAN/LIN Trigger and Decode
(1) RTB-K15 History and Segment Meomry
(1) RT-ZP03 300 MHz/10 MHz, 10:1/1:1, 10 M?/1 M?, 400 V, 12 pF/82 pF Single-ended Passive Probe
(1) Power Cord

Probe manual: http://assets.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Rohde___Schwarz_RT-ZP03_User_Manual.pdf (http://assets.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Rohde___Schwarz_RT-ZP03_User_Manual.pdf)
Probes datasheet: http://assets.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Rohde___Schwarz_RT-ZXX_Standard_Probes_Datasheet.pdf (http://assets.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Rohde___Schwarz_RT-ZXX_Standard_Probes_Datasheet.pdf)

The only reference I can find for the RTB2004 included items states 300 Mhz probes for the scope.  The manual indicates you should have 1.5X the bandwidth as a minimum probe specification.

Can Rich or anyone else confirm what actually comes with the 300 Mhz version of this scope?

The Keysight 4000X scope (1.5GHz) also comes with passive probes that only go to 700 MHz. It's not unusual to not get the optimal probe for the scope for free, but rather a general purpose one.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ovnr on March 17, 2017, 01:00:40 pm
I was reasonably ready to go buy one if the US promotion appeared in Europe, because it's a very good deal and a bit hard to pass up. But since I can't really afford dumping £2000 on a scope now - let alone £5000! - I'm not going to bother.

I might grab one later on if people manage to unlock all the things tho. We shall see.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 17, 2017, 01:03:21 pm
Thank you Neganur, that was one of the references I mentioned in my post.   

However, I have purchased elsewhere and was told that it is up to R&S what they actually put in the box.  Hence, my question to Rich on this forum.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2017, 01:14:08 pm
Reportedly 200 launch offer units worldwide and moving quickly. Sure we'll see a few reselling on ebay when they're done
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Bud on March 17, 2017, 01:24:55 pm
.  Is there something wrong with using the "good old" 50 ohm Tee connector?  Is there a practical impact?

Yes there is. It is never there anywhere on the bench when you need it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on March 17, 2017, 01:37:46 pm
Spec sheet says 1 probe per channel as standard pg. 18 - (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2236537.pdf))

And probes are the RT-ZP03's - no matter which scope configuration you buy. (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/r/rt_zp/RT-ZP03_UserManual_de_en_02.pdf (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/r/rt_zp/RT-ZP03_UserManual_de_en_02.pdf))

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Carrington on March 17, 2017, 02:28:21 pm
It seems that other manufacturers are applying promotions or discounts too, for example: Tektronix, GW Instek and probably some other manufacturers as well.

http://www.gwinstek.com/en-US/Page/ECEDHA_Education_Promotion (http://www.gwinstek.com/en-US/Page/ECEDHA_Education_Promotion)
http://info.tek.com/EN-TEKENCORE1703-EM.html (http://info.tek.com/EN-TEKENCORE1703-EM.html)
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/index.aspx (http://www.siglent.com/ENs/index.aspx)

Surely, they only do it because they love us.  >:D
Title: Re: Quantifying the noise floor
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 17, 2017, 02:48:49 pm

Q.  Does the ADC run at 10-bits even at 1mV/div?
A.  Yes.  You also get full bandwidth.  The scope also has very good noise for this class of instrument.


Rich, could you get the lab to quantify that at 100Mhz and the 300MHz of the RTB2004 sales special?  I was just leafing through the 6000 series Keysight website and noticed they do, below.  115 uVrms noise floor at 1mV/div at 1GHz BW.  I've searched through the RTB200o0 datasheet here

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_dat-sw_en_3607-4270-22_v0400.pdf (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_dat-sw_en_3607-4270-22_v0400.pdf)   (opens PDF)

and I'm not finding the number in the vertical section.

Thanks!
Hi agdr - I can try to help some here, but as you know noise is pretty complicated and can be tough to compare apples to apples.  A couple comments:

1.  The 6000X is a higher-end scope, more in line price and BW-wise with our RTO family of scopes.  For that compare, we are 100uVrms at 1GHz and 1mV/div.  But we also have 10 vertical divisions (vs. 8 on the 6000X), so it would normally be viewed as a "percent of full scale", which for the RTO would be 1% and for the Keysight 6000X would be 1.4%.

2.  I don't have a 100MHz RTB, but I do have a 300MHz RTB.  Again, we use 10 divisions, we are 100uVrms at 1mV/div and 300MHz.  I also have a DSOX3034A.  It is 213uVrms at 1mV/div and 300MHz (1MOhm path).  Again, at 8 divisions.  Looking at percent of full scale, the RTB is 1%.  The 3000X is 2.7%.  I don't have any other scopes that are 300MHz unfortunately so we can compare fully apples to apples.

-Rich
Title: Re: Quantifying the noise floor
Post by: agdr on March 17, 2017, 03:11:09 pm
Hi agdr - I can try to help some here, but as you know noise is pretty complicated and can be tough to compare apples to apples. 

Thank you!  That makes me glad I bought one of your introduction special scope bundles yesterday.  :)    Yeah I originally had a sentence in there like "Not saying the 6000 series is comparable to the RTB2000, just that the other guys are publishing noise floor numbers" but deleted it.  Keysight's 3000 or 4000 series is actually the "other" choice I've been looking at, the 3034A in fact, so your test here is right on the money.

No shipping confirm from Tequipment on your bundle yet. I'll have to call them today.  Are the distributors supposed to have that bundle in stock, or do they order them from R&S as orders come in?
Title: Re: Quantifying the noise floor
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 17, 2017, 03:19:29 pm
Hi agdr - I can try to help some here, but as you know noise is pretty complicated and can be tough to compare apples to apples. 

Thank you!  That makes me glad I bought one of your introduction special scope bundles yesterday.  :)    Yeah I originally had a sentence in there like "Not saying the 6000 series is comparable to the RTB2000, just that the other guys are publishing noise floor numbers" but deleted it.  Keysight's 3000 or 4000 series is actually the "other" choice I've been looking at, the 3034A in fact, so your test here is right on the money.

No shipping confirm from Tequipment on your bundle yet. I'll have to call them today.  Are the distributors supposed to have that bundle in stock, or do they order them from R&S as orders come in?
They all have (had) them in stock, but demand has been strong.  I think your best bet is to contact them directly to see lead times.  And thanks for your order!  I think you'll be pleased  :-+

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 17, 2017, 03:23:05 pm
This was what I thought from my university days .. some 40 odd years ago.  That being said, knowledge and technical practice march on.  Is there something wrong with using the "good old" 50 ohm Tee connector?  Is there a practical impact?
There is nothing wrong with a 50 Ohm terminator on a Tee just don't think a 1M Ohm input will work well at high frequencies (150MHz is pushing the limits)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 17, 2017, 03:23:37 pm
The only reference I can find for the RTB2004 included items states 300 Mhz probes for the scope.  The manual indicates you should have 1.5X the bandwidth as a minimum probe specification.

Can Rich or anyone else confirm what actually comes with the 300 Mhz version of this scope?
Hi irakandjii - you can ignore my PM now - I found your question.  Sorry for missing it earlier.  All RTB2000s come with the ZP03 probe standard, including the 300MHz model. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rsjsouza on March 17, 2017, 03:28:23 pm
Another vid, from Brazil this time...
Thanks for sharing that, Mike. Despite the video uses a somewhat annoying background music and there are some unfortunate cuts on it (during the protocol analyzer setup, for instance), the UI looks pretty responsive and it is well rounded with features.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 17, 2017, 03:30:32 pm
I was in the market for a low-mid range scope. I saw scopemonth and figured maybe I'd get a 1000x free. When I saw this launch special I went ahead and just ordered one. Looks like a great value(Here in us, 2287 with tax). Compared to the 1000x from keysight its about 500-600 more with options I want but that big screen is hard to say no to, and virtually everything is better. Now if only testequity would get ship it or let me pick it up.

They all have (had) them in stock, but demand has been strong.  I think your best bet is to contact them directly to see lead times.  And thanks for your order!  I think you'll be pleased  :-+

-Rich

Any way you could say what kind of limit there is on launch bundle, or a range, estimated stock time? I'd consider buying more assuming it works as well as it looks like it should. Paying for the range of options though... I'm not sure it's terribly competitive with that factored in.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on March 17, 2017, 03:44:48 pm
Hi Rich,

Is there any update/official position on warranty for units purchased from US suppliers and shipped to Europe? E.g. would there be an option to send to a R&S location in Europe rather than back to US supplier in the event that it needed service?

Asking as even taking shipping and tax into account it would save nearly $3.5k vs buying in the UK (could fly business across the pond to pick up in person for that money!)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2017, 04:07:40 pm
Quote from: maginnovision
Any way you could say what kind of limit there is on launch bundle, or a range, estimated stock time?
I heard 200 worldwide. Possibly other promotions in 6 months' time, but I'd be surprised to see anything close to the current one
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaserEng on March 17, 2017, 04:42:12 pm
Hope it's worth the hype, just did an impulse purchase from Tequipment to be shipped to Shipito my preferred US forwareder, to be shipped to Thailand. Hopefully the Thai customs won't be too greedy when it comes through.

I have a feeling though that Tequipment may be struggling with demand and am fully expecting the order gets cancelled, the price shifted up nearly a $100 in the day it took me to decide to place the order.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Stwspoon on March 17, 2017, 04:58:42 pm
I bought a HMO 1212 last summer. I really like it and recently looked into getting the serial decode option (HO-010 + H0-3508 logic probe ~ $750) when I saw the RTB2004 thread.

Does Rich or anyone know of any discounts or bundles on the 12xx series that may become available?  I am tempted by the RTB2004 deal, but I can't drop > $2000 on anything this close to Tax season :-(

Stan W
Title: Re: Quantifying the noise floor
Post by: agdr on March 17, 2017, 05:06:30 pm
They all have (had) them in stock, but demand has been strong.  I think your best bet is to contact them directly to see lead times.  And thanks for your order!  I think you'll be pleased  :-+

I just spoke with Tequipment.  Sure enough, however it works out, R&S is shipping to them (shipped out today, they say), then they will forward to me.  Sounds like a couple of days for them to get the scope from the R&S warehouse.  I'll bet the one or two they may have had in stock were snapped up within minutes of the bundle announcement.

The larger screen and higher resolution of the RTB2000's are making that default of 10 vertical divisions possible, vs the 8 on the Keysight and on my Rigol 2000 series here.  Wow, no more doing math in my head like "what is 5 volts divided by 8 divisions?" Now I just move the decimal.  And those on-screen division labels!  You guys are making this easy.  Isn't using a scope supposed to be a struggle?  ;D

So you now have some customer proof that the RTB2000's are pulling some sales away from the below-350 MHz portion of the Keysight 3000 series as well as the 2000's.  I know the 2000 was one of the direct compare marketing sheets.  For me the higher waveforms per second, higher sampling rate, more math functions, and (available at least) power analysis software lost out to the bigger (still touch!) screen, 10 bit ADC, more memory, price! (especially this bundle), MSO capability without having to buy the next $1.5K more MSO model up, and now lower noise floor.

EDIT: Even having a set of vertical controls per channel on the Keysight lost out to the single set on the R&S.  I folded like a cheap suit on that requirement when the bundle came along.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2017, 05:22:37 pm
I've just been told that it may be possible to buy direct from R&S UK, but not clear if US bundle price available.
Quote
On the plus side, we can sell the RTB's directly though R&S UK. So we might be able to offer a better deal in most scenarios.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rrinker on March 17, 2017, 05:23:49 pm
.  Is there something wrong with using the "good old" 50 ohm Tee connector?  Is there a practical impact?

Yes there is. It is never there anywhere on the bench when you need it.

 Back in the days of coax Ethernet and Arcnet, I always had an animal 'sculpture' made of T connectors and terminators on my desk. I haven't seen one personally in probably 15 years.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 17, 2017, 05:34:27 pm
Quote from: maginnovision
Any way you could say what kind of limit there is on launch bundle, or a range, estimated stock time?
I heard 200 worldwide. Possibly other promotions in 6 months' time, but I'd be surprised to see anything close to the current one

Wow, if that's accurate I hope there are no fulfillment issues. Considering the normal price though, it seems reasonable.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kkessler on March 17, 2017, 05:34:42 pm

 Back in the days of coax Ethernet and Arcnet, I always had an animal 'sculpture' made of T connectors and terminators on my desk. I haven't seen one personally in probably 15 years.

Because I never throw anything out, or so my wife claims, I still have some T's and Terminators left from the good old days.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on March 17, 2017, 05:54:59 pm
Anybody knows how quiet the  scope is? Having a piece of TE that's quiet out of the box would be great for a change.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2017, 06:24:06 pm
Just heard from someone that Testequity wouldn't ship to a UPS hub, or if a non-US phone number given
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 17, 2017, 06:45:55 pm
Just heard from someone that Testequity wouldn't ship to a UPS hub, or if a non-US phone number given

It's amazing no uk distributors would offer this deal. It'd be there and gone, hardly affecting anyone but the buyers. Then they'd get the word of mouth from those people since they got such a great deal. Hopefully you get your unit soon, I'd like to know what you actually think about it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2017, 07:03:24 pm
Should have it next Wed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on March 17, 2017, 07:07:30 pm
Back in the days of coax Ethernet and Arcnet, I always had an animal 'sculpture' made of T connectors and terminators on my desk. I haven't seen one personally in probably 15 years.

I still do that! Ok, to be honest it's not really looking like an animal but they are connected together, the bigger the object is the easier it is to find it back  :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 17, 2017, 07:10:43 pm
I have my Tees in a small drawer in a Raaco cabinet. Next to the drawers with N adapters, SMA adapters and more RF connector adapters.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 17, 2017, 07:15:33 pm
tequipment.net says:

AS OF 3/17/17 VERY LIMITED STOCK LEFT - LEAD TIME 3-4 WEEKS - PROMO PRICING ENDS SOON!

Features

SHIPPING TO USA ADDRESSES ONLY!

...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 17, 2017, 07:55:28 pm
uh yeah, Tequipment.net is sending emails now saying that there is 4 weeks lead time. Guess they were overrun :)

and testequity notes: "Temporarily Sold Out. Delivery for all new orders in 30 days. Place your order before supplies run out completely!"
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 17, 2017, 07:59:30 pm
Should have it next Wed.

So from the sounds of it the promo deal will be all sold out before you get it and can put it through its paces.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 17, 2017, 08:14:41 pm
I ordered mine 2 days ago, almost immediately, from testequity and they told me 6+ weeks today. If they aren't actually sold out already I'd be surprised.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 17, 2017, 08:31:37 pm
I ordered mine from Testforce here in Ottawa, Canada yesterday and was told 6 weeks until delivery.

Good thing that as I got older my ability to wait improved ..  well ... sort of..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 17, 2017, 09:05:51 pm
Anybody knows how quiet the  scope is? Having a piece of TE that's quiet out of the box would be great for a change.

on page 12 of
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf
it says: "Audible noise | maximum sound pressure level at a distance of 1.0 m | 28.3 dB(A)"

anybody has an idea how loud this is? from google it looks pretty silent, but actually I have no real feeling for how loud it really is. do you have any comparison?
Any sign if they are using a fan? Or is it passively cooled?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tequipment on March 17, 2017, 09:24:44 pm
Guys.  This is Evan Cirelli from Tequipment.  Thanks for all the business!

Here is the real run down on these units.  As you guys know demand is very high.

In all of the USA this is a very limited number of units being sold at the special price.  We have all but 26 units sold.  I expect these to be sold within a few days.

http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/)

These units will be shipping in 4-5 weeks.  This is a limited time special. At this time I am told when we are sold out this special will be over.
Again thanks for the business!

Cheers
Evan Cirelli

Vice President and Co Founder
TEquipment.NET
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 17, 2017, 09:32:32 pm
Anybody knows how quiet the  scope is? Having a piece of TE that's quiet out of the box would be great for a change.

on page 12 of
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf
it says: "Audible noise | maximum sound pressure level at a distance of 1.0 m | 28.3 dB(A)"

anybody has an idea how loud this is? from google it looks pretty silent, but actually I have no real feeling for how loud it really is. do you have any comparison?
Any sign if they are using a fan? Or is it passively cooled?

If it is more than a meter or so away from you, you will not be able to hear 28.3 dB "white noise" in any normal working environment .  This is quieter than my electric wall clock.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 17, 2017, 09:45:56 pm
Just been having a more detailed look through the manual.
Some unusual features :

USB - can be configured as
TMC ( test/measure class - like most scopes)
VCP - COM port for SCPI commands via terminal  - no LXI drivers etc.needed  just so send some simple commands
Mass Storage - scope appears as a drive on the PC

Grid can be made to track the waveform as you scroll. Could be really handy for manually decoding serial protocols - keeping timeslots in a consistent place.
Time/Voltage values shown on every grid line ( optional)

1gbit ethernet - appears to support live screen updates via web interface. (Even mentions using a RasPi to do it for low-cost HDMI output! (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Project_ac_en_3607-3239_92_v0100.pdf))

Colour intensity modes, and  inverse mode - infrequent signals show up more brightly - sounds really useful for catching occasional glitches etc.

Simultaneous XY and waveform display, and XYY to display 2 Y axes ( 3-phase?)

Defaults to 50mS persistance  ( can be turned off) I noticed this in the Polish demo, Not sure how I feel about that - wondering if it's to hide something in zero-persistence mode.

Envelope acquisition mode - think I'll have to see it to understand if useful

Adjustable hysteresis on trigger input

"set to trace"  for manual cursors - sets cursors to one cycle/ peak-peak of current trace

Adjustable front-panel LED brightness

Obvious omissions :
No Nth-edge burst or runt pulse trigger
No integration/difference maths function 
No event search ( never used it myself but I can see how could be useful)
No foreign language help, only menus etc. ( expect that may get done at some point)

Is it possible that any of the "omissions" would be available at a future date?
- Firmware upgrade?
- New Option?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 17, 2017, 11:35:12 pm
Is it possible that any of the "omissions" would be available at a future date?
- Firmware upgrade?
- New Option?

Two posts after that kwass found documentation that the scope does have the runt pulse trigger and event search.   I would *really* like to see more math functions too.  Maybe that could be a firmware update thing, unless it would bog the processor in the unit down too much.  Apparently it can do a dump of stored data via USB to MATLAB, which is a handy trick

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Import_ac_en_3607-0446-92_v0100.pdf (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Import_ac_en_3607-0446-92_v0100.pdf)   (opens PDF)

but not really a replacement for (more advanced!) real-time math functions.  Since it can perform FFTs one would think it would be possible to make it integrate and differentiate, at the least.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 12:03:36 am
 Of course they could add all sorts of new features if the wanted, though they won't want to compete with their higher end models.
Quite likely there could be things that aren't in the current user guide. There was a firmware update on their site posted a few days ago.
The stuff about runt etc. Appeared to relate to a different model.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nowlan on March 18, 2017, 12:41:25 am
Was there a thread about the new Spectrum analyzer?
Rohde & Schwarz FPC1000 Spectrum Analyzer (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/fpc1000-productstartpage_63493-363458.html)

The girl in the brochure has one to the right of her.
(https://www.testequity.com/Images/new/rs/RTB2000-lab.jpg)

Replacement of the old Hameg HMS-X (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/hms-productstartpage_63493-42689.html)

https://www.testequity.com/products/33441/ (https://www.testequity.com/products/33441/) $1895.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 18, 2017, 12:51:22 am
Guys.  This is Evan Cirelli from Tequipment.  Thanks for all the business!

Here is the real run down on these units.  As you guys know demand is very high.

In all of the USA this is a very limited number of units being sold at the special price.  We have all but 26 units sold.  I expect these to be sold within a few days.

http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/)

These units will be shipping in 4-5 weeks.  This is a limited time special. At this time I am told when we are sold out this special will be over.
Again thanks for the business!

Cheers
Evan Cirelli

Vice President and Co Founder
TEquipment.NET

This has set a precident for the price and that will be all the market will be prepared to pay from now on.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 18, 2017, 01:26:52 am
Of course they could add all sorts of new features if the wanted, though they won't want to compete with their higher end models.

Maybe an opportunity here for R&S to make a few $$ on this likely loss-leader intro promo, an "advanced math" software package for another $540, the pricing of their other software packages.  I would buy it if the package contained the majority of the math functions the Keysight 3000 series offers, attached.  Especially if it added the markers to the FFT peaks!

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 18, 2017, 01:29:20 am
Guys.  This is Evan Cirelli from Tequipment.  Thanks for all the business!

Here is the real run down on these units.  As you guys know demand is very high.

In all of the USA this is a very limited number of units being sold at the special price.  We have all but 26 units sold.  I expect these to be sold within a few days.

http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/)

These units will be shipping in 4-5 weeks.  This is a limited time special. At this time I am told when we are sold out this special will be over.
Again thanks for the business!

Cheers
Evan Cirelli

Vice President and Co Founder
TEquipment.NET

This has set a precident for the price and that will be all the market will be prepared to pay from now on.

I don't believe that. Scopes have been high priced all this time. You can get a rigol for 400 but, while it's insanely popular, it's not the only scope people buy. This isn't that much different than keysight giving away alot of scopes, except R&S still make money since most of the options are just software codes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 02:17:58 am
The bundle price is clearly a marketing stunt, and to compete there is no need for them to sell it anything like that cheaply. Their intention is to get units out there, so people find out how good they are and hopefully raise their profile ( especially in USA/Canada, apparently).
At the list price, they are probably reasonably competitive, but more on a "better for the same price" basis than "cheaper for a comparable spec". Getting units out there  helps spread the "better" word.

What we may well see is  promotions, offers etc. and options "thrown in" to get a sale. Time will tell how it works out. As Rich said, they are in it for the long term.
And of course if they get hacked, they won't be able to build them fast enough.
 

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 02:21:55 am

In all of the USA this is a very limited number of units being sold at the special price.  We have all but 26 units sold.  I expect these to be sold within a few days.

all but 26 of the whole allocation or just your part of it ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kkessler on March 18, 2017, 02:24:27 am
I don't believe that. Scopes have been high priced all this time. You can get a rigol for 400 but, while it's insanely popular, it's not the only scope people buy. This isn't that much different than keysight giving away alot of scopes, except R&S still make money since most of the options are just software codes.

You know, I often wonder about that.  Do they lose money on their base 70MHz models, and they expecting most people upgrade to at least a break even level, or are the base models profitable, and every license key you buy above that is just pure profit gravy?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 03:07:02 am

You know, I often wonder about that.  Do they lose money on their base 70MHz models, and they expecting most people upgrade to at least a break even level, or are the base models profitable, and every license key you buy above that is just pure profit gravy?
In terms of actual hardware manufacturing cost, I highly doubt they'd be selling anything at a loss ( that may even be illegal in some jurisdictions) , but they will be relying heavily on sales of higher models & options to recoup development cost, and quite a bit of that cost (particularly software, maybe also the 10 bit ADC) will be shared (maybe already recouped) over different product ranges.
As long as they are competitive in features vs. cost to the competition, people that want a 300MHz scope will buy ( or upgrade) to that spec - some people need that spec, so they just have to make sure they buy theirs and not the competition, and they do have potential to add sweeteners like options at no coat to them if they think that would make a sale they otherwise wouldn't have got.

And longer term they can adjust prices if the balance of models is different to what they based their pricing on.

Something that I have always wondered out of random curiosity- scopes are a relatively niche product. The avarage person on the street wouldn't even know what one was. There are so many options from so many manufacturers, especially at the low end (<=100Mhz).
Keysight are giving away something like 150 scopes, (including I think 10+ pretty high end ones) this month.

Just how many scopes at the various levels are sold worldwide each year -  anyone know ?

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Someone on March 18, 2017, 03:23:18 am
Of course they could add all sorts of new features if the wanted, though they won't want to compete with their higher end models.

Maybe an opportunity here for R&S to make a few $$ on this likely loss-leader intro promo, an "advanced math" software package for another $540, the pricing of their other software packages.  I would buy it if the package contained the majority of the math functions the Keysight 3000 series offers, attached.  Especially if it added the markers to the FFT peaks!
While those are standard on the 3000T, they were the advanced maths "option" for the 3000X. So its been done before!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kwass on March 18, 2017, 04:25:43 am
Just how many scopes at the various levels are sold worldwide each year -  anyone know ?

It looks like it will cost you more than a new RTB2004 to find out: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nowlan on March 18, 2017, 04:32:26 am
I wonder if the sales data is in some prospective somewhere for shareholders.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 18, 2017, 05:48:31 am
" I would *really* like to see more math functions too.  Maybe that could be a firmware update thing, unless it would bog the processor in the unit down too much.  Apparently it can do a dump of stored data via USB to MATLAB, which is a handy trick"

I'd preffer implementation of lua for own processing alghorithm implementation.
Live data streaming ie. pure AD output for external live procesing will be nice too.
And filter response curve ploting since we have arbitrary generator on board ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 18, 2017, 06:10:39 am
I'd preffer implementation of lua for own processing alghorithm implementation.
Live data streaming ie. pure AD output for external live procesing will be nice too.

I was thinking about something like that today!  The scope already supports displaying the screen on a PC via a live stream over Ethernet:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Project_ac_en_3607-3239_92_v0100.pdf (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Project_ac_en_3607-3239_92_v0100.pdf)   (opens PDF)

The scope apparently has a built in web server that can display remotely on a PC browser.   I think it has a gigabit ethernet port too.  From the second page in that brochure:


Open an Internet browser on your PC (e.g. Internet Explorer, Chrome or Firefox) and enter the IP address of the oscilloscope into the address bar. The instrument’s web interface will now appear

Click “Livescreen” in the menu on the left to obtain a continuously updated image of the oscilloscope display in your browser (the browser can be resized). You can use the “Remote Front Panel” to fully operate the instrument


So essentially similar to Remote Desktop Connection between two PCs, just with the scope's interface instead:


To interact with the oscilloscope, use the previously described remote front panel. In this view, all elements can be directly controlled. A click on the Autoset button, for example, initiates an autoset just like a press on the real button would do.


I have to wonder how well that will work using Windoze rather than a real-time OS though.  Which reminds me, that is yet another plus of the RTB2000's, I think someone mentioned they run an RTOS, rather than Windows CE.

So... if it can already "livestream" the screen and send control data back over the ethernet link, seems like just a half-step away from creating some programming API's for the scope to allow some (near) real-time waveform processing to happen on the PC. 

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on March 18, 2017, 06:13:13 am
and testequity notes: "Temporarily Sold Out. Delivery for all new orders in 30 days. Place your order before supplies run out completely!"
I ordered mine 2 days ago, almost immediately, from testequity and they told me 6+ weeks today. If they aren't actually sold out already I'd be surprised.

At work occasionally get to play with the very high ten Tek scopes in our product development and testing department... and had a good old CRO-scope when I was younger. Haven't had one in more than a decade, but was in the market...  was following along ScopeMonth... and was weighing that and the Rigol... but saw the general specs, and based on what I want to do with it was sold.  Only thing I haven't seen really visible so far on the videos is what its persistence looks like beyond the 50ms thing, if any.  But more interested in some ham radio uses, as well as some moderate speed analouge circuits and micro-controllers. 

I guess I do have some worry about the scopes processing power. Maybe it is just everything I've seen has had the 50ms persistence, but it seems like the displayed waveform update rate is really slow to me. I'm sure its just the nature of the videos that have so-far been released.   And I would like to see a bit more on the math functions, but I don't have a pressing need for them at present.


I ordered about 2 days ago as well... but I haven't gotten a date from TestEQ.. just a sales order acknowledgement and a typical "this is what else we do" type account email thing (new sales lead stuff).  Really hate being parted with my money for 6 weeks from purchase to at-my-door when talking that sum of money... but I'm not in a super hurry. Just was expecting near-instant ship due to it basically say "the distributors are stocked" on one of the product release things.  I guess they had higher demand than anticipated.





it says: "Audible noise | maximum sound pressure level at a distance of 1.0 m | 28.3 dB(A)"
anybody has an idea how loud this is? from google it looks pretty silent, but actually I have no real feeling for how


28.3 dB(A) is reasonably quiet. Does depend on where and how that measurement is taken (is it inline with the fan port, etc). The "silent" pc fans are in the low 20s. A typical home during the day would be in the upper 40s low 50s typically. Anything under about 6 dB(A) from the room environment is going to be very hard to hear (unless it has a very distinct tone). I suspect it has a fan in it, its pretty hard to keep high-speed chips cool passively.  And its well within the range of a typical case fan. If it was passively cooled it would likely be sub 20 dB(A) (getting down into psu coil whine, clock noise, etc).   I know its a design thing, but wish more test-gear manufactures could follow what has happened in the home PC market, and go for nothing smaller than 120mm.. 140mm where possible. There are a couple of pieces at work that have effectively 40mm server fans that scream along at 60-70 dB(A). Bigger fans can pump more cfm at lower rpm.




Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 18, 2017, 06:27:22 am

So... if it can already "livestream" the screen and send control data back over the ethernet link, seems like just a half-step away from creating some programming API's for the scope to allow some (near) real-time waveform processing to happen on the PC.

They streaming live wave and controll scope via HTML. I assume it's HTML5 nowdays.
It means websocket probably too. If it is ws:// and not wss:// it will be the most "buy this one" recomended scope ever   ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 18, 2017, 07:28:17 am
This is quieter than my electric wall clock.

That's that cleared up, then.  :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 18, 2017, 08:40:05 am
At work occasionally get to play with the very high ten Tek scopes in our product development and testing department... and had a good old CRO-scope when I was younger. Haven't had one in more than a decade, but was in the market...  was following along ScopeMonth... and was weighing that and the Rigol... but saw the general specs, and based on what I want to do with it was sold.  Only thing I haven't seen really visible so far on the videos is what its persistence looks like beyond the 50ms thing, if any.  But more interested in some ham radio uses, as well as some moderate speed analouge circuits and micro-controllers. 

I guess I do have some worry about the scopes processing power. Maybe it is just everything I've seen has had the 50ms persistence, but it seems like the displayed waveform update rate is really slow to me. I'm sure its just the nature of the videos that have so-far been released.   And I would like to see a bit more on the math functions, but I don't have a pressing need for them at present.


I ordered about 2 days ago as well... but I haven't gotten a date from TestEQ.. just a sales order acknowledgement and a typical "this is what else we do" type account email thing (new sales lead stuff).  Really hate being parted with my money for 6 weeks from purchase to at-my-door when talking that sum of money... but I'm not in a super hurry. Just was expecting near-instant ship due to it basically say "the distributors are stocked" on one of the product release things.  I guess they had higher demand than anticipated.

That's the other thing, I ordered and there was no indication it was going to be a month and a half, it was just in stock. Couple days later though... I'm normally fine with it but I have another baby due in... 6 weeks. Sort of unfortunate timing?. Even more when I have an actual project I intended this to be for, which was also supposed to be done before then.

I'm also assuming it's probably similar to or better than their HMO 1002/1202 series scope with regards to the display. The waveforms/second is 50k which is similar to most scopes in this range now. I do assume the display update rate is not great. Using RTOS, lack of math functions, the scrolling menus not being terribly smooth all make me think the processor is weak and possibly feeds into poor display refresh rate. Doesn't help that they're trying to push so many more pixels at the same time. It is possible RTOS was used just to have more deterministic timing and flexibility though. If nothing else the long wait gives you plenty of time to change your mind if it turns out not to be to your liking.

Despite not actually caring that much, with 6 weeks to wait I have nothing else to do but speculate. Can't wait for some decent video of the thing.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 18, 2017, 08:44:18 am
it says: "Audible noise | maximum sound pressure level at a distance of 1.0 m | 28.3 dB(A)"
anybody has an idea how loud this is? from google it looks pretty silent, but actually I have no real feeling for how


28.3 dB(A) is reasonably quiet. Does depend on where and how that measurement is taken (is it inline with the fan port, etc). The "silent" pc fans are in the low 20s. A typical home during the day would be in the upper 40s low 50s typically. Anything under about 6 dB(A) from the room environment is going to be very hard to hear (unless it has a very distinct tone). I suspect it has a fan in it, its pretty hard to keep high-speed chips cool passively.  And its well within the range of a typical case fan. If it was passively cooled it would likely be sub 20 dB(A) (getting down into psu coil whine, clock noise, etc).   I know its a design thing, but wish more test-gear manufactures could follow what has happened in the home PC market, and go for nothing smaller than 120mm.. 140mm where possible. There are a couple of pieces at work that have effectively 40mm server fans that scream along at 60-70 dB(A). Bigger fans can pump more cfm at lower rpm.

Thanks. So you can scrap your wall clock as there seems to be one in the upper right corner of the UI :-D.

But does anyone have a comparable audible noise figure for a pricewise similar scope? Didn't find anything in the dpo2000b and msox2000 specs?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 18, 2017, 08:58:59 am
I'd preffer implementation of lua for own processing alghorithm implementation.

Why Lua? JavaScript is much more widely known, and there is V8. Quick Google results:
https://realmensch.org/2016/05/28/goodbye-lua/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_(JavaScript_engine)
For web-developer moving into Arduino is a breeze because it's almost like JavaScript.
Think JavaScript-like processing will reach wider audience.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 09:12:29 am
Just how many scopes at the various levels are sold worldwide each year -  anyone know ?

It looks like it will cost you more than a new RTB2004 to find out: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html)
I've always been rather skeptical about these expensive market reports, more so the ones that try to make future projections ( sometimes to 3 significant figures) - only the manufacturers really know, and there is no way to know how good the data is. My guess is they're full of marketing waffle for Marketing Suits. Maybe I'm just being too cynical - would love to see one.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 18, 2017, 09:16:16 am
I don't believe that. Scopes have been high priced all this time. You can get a rigol for 400 but, while it's insanely popular, it's not the only scope people buy. This isn't that much different than keysight giving away alot of scopes, except R&S still make money since most of the options are just software codes.

You know, I often wonder about that.  Do they lose money on their base 70MHz models, and they expecting most people upgrade to at least a break even level, or are the base models profitable, and every license key you buy above that is just pure profit gravy?

I've been told that hardly anyone buys the 70MHz to 100MHz upgrade, and you'd expect that, it's bugger-all.
They would not be selling at a loss, bet your bottom dollar.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 09:43:09 am
I don't believe that. Scopes have been high priced all this time. You can get a rigol for 400 but, while it's insanely popular, it's not the only scope people buy. This isn't that much different than keysight giving away alot of scopes, except R&S still make money since most of the options are just software codes.

You know, I often wonder about that.  Do they lose money on their base 70MHz models, and they expecting most people upgrade to at least a break even level, or are the base models profitable, and every license key you buy above that is just pure profit gravy?

I've been told that hardly anyone buys the 70MHz to 100MHz upgrade, and you'd expect that, it's bugger-all.
They would not be selling at a loss, bet your bottom dollar.
I'd bet that more bandwidth upgrade options get given away as promotions or deal sweetners than get sold.  Especially the minimal change from 70 to 100. If it was 70 to 150 or 200, maybe more would sell.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 18, 2017, 09:44:31 am
Regarding MATLAB and accessing real time data, I found this video on the R&S website:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/videos_5/application_5/RTB2000_USB_live_file_and_setup_access_720p_HQ.mp4

Starting at time mark 0:35 there is a laptop connected via USB showing file access to live data like the screen and channel data (folder names: Bus, Channel, FFT, Logic, Math, Reference).

There is a folder called \Live Data\Channel in which there apparently is access to Acquisition Memory and Display Data.
In the Display Data folder there seems to be a 6.98MB large csv file "CH1.CSV" and in the video this file is opened with Excel.

On trade shows here in Helsinki I've seen the R&S guy demonstrate the RTO scope connected to a software very similar to Keysight's 89600 VSA software and I wonder if the data in the 'Live Data' folder is indeed updated fast enough to be able to use this as somewhat 'live stream' of data (probably not, it's a lot of data).

EDIT: there is also some basic data export code snippet (via SCPI commands) on page 111 of the manual: https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/r/rtb_1/RTB_UserManual_en_01.pdf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on March 18, 2017, 09:46:47 am
Just how many scopes at the various levels are sold worldwide each year -  anyone know ?

It looks like it will cost you more than a new RTB2004 to find out: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html)
I've always been rather skeptical about these expensive market reports, more so the ones that try to make future projections ( sometimes to 3 significant figures) - only the manufacturers really know, and there is no way to know how good the data is. My guess is they're full of marketing waffle for Marketing Suits. Maybe I'm just being too cynical - would love to see one.
I agree about the dodgy figures in most of these expensive reports. You can find historic figures for some classic scopes on the web, and I've no reason to doubt their validity. Things like the HP1740A and Tek 465 seemed to sell a few 10s of k over a fairly long (maybe 10 year) production life in the 70s and 80s. I think that leads to 2 questions - How would that scale to sales of 6-12 month salary scopes today? How would that scale to sales of 100MHz scopes today?

Last year sellers of the DS1054Z in Shenzhen kept displaying that Rigol had sold 10k, then 20k, then 30k, and I think the last figure I saw was 40k. There was only a few weeks between each of those steps.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 18, 2017, 11:22:45 am
Just how many scopes at the various levels are sold worldwide each year -  anyone know ?
Look at Rigol DS1054Z stock levels at Tequipment for example. Around Christmas they had over 2000 units in stock after they had sold loads of the and currently they have over 1300 units left. I think they sell at least somewhere between 1000 and 2000 units each year. After all a DMM and an oscilloscope are the bare essential tools if you want to do something with electronics.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: stuartk on March 18, 2017, 02:30:26 pm
I've been trying to snag one in Canada.

I have yet to hear back from Test Force.

Hopefully Monday.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 18, 2017, 02:34:24 pm
This is quieter than my electric wall clock.

That's that cleared up, then.  :-DD

Just for fun I thought I would explain a little more. :popcorn:

 :-DD  Just to illustrate I have attached a link to an official "scale" that compares sound pressure levels.

http://www.smgov.net/uploadedImages/Departments/OSE/Categories/Landscape/Sound_Level_Chart.jpg (http://www.smgov.net/uploadedImages/Departments/OSE/Categories/Landscape/Sound_Level_Chart.jpg)

The vast majority of audible noise in electronics is driven by cooling fans.  I hate fan noise so generally replace fans in computers etc.  A really good PWM PC fan with <30 db and reasonable flow rate will cost ~$15.00-$20.00 retail vs <$2.00 for a cheap industrial one . 

Noise in fans comes from 3 main sources, bearings, turbulence from obstructions chopping the air flow (usually bracing) and turbulence coming from poor blade design, blade dirt or manufacture defects.  Traditional computer and PSU fans generate 40 to 50 dba of noise at full RPM.  Most teardowns I have watched on eevblog show these cheap industrial fans in the scopes. 

Mitigation:
If you halve (50%) the sound pressure level (spl) you will drop about 3db, example: if I have 2 fans and remove one I will get a 3db drop.  Now that means a regular industrial fan @  ~41 db fan is about 64X more energized  than  a 23 db fan. (this means it is perceived to be about 6X quieter)

Next, air flow rate which is proportional to fan RPM, is the dependent variable that creates noise levels and removes heat. It is generally a non linear function.  So, lower fan speeds will be a lot quieter.   This why "cheap" computer case makers have increased fan sizes.  The volume of air flow is a function of (flow rate X Area).  So doubling the diameter of a fan provides 4X the air flow (per rpm) which in theory (stretch) doubles the heat removal from the system or cuts RPM by 4X for the same dissipation. 

It is much cheaper in a large PC case to throw a big, cheap, non-pwm fan in the case and then use marketing to sell the kids on just how cool this looks. (pun intended)
 
The other way to reduce noise is to adjust fan speeds downward to just match the air flow required to meet thermal transfer requirement (PWM fans) These are more expensive and require control circuitry.  They are now the solution of choice in better quality computer equipment (PSU, Video Cards, CPU and case fans).

Now, if you want to engineer for low sound the first thing you do is minimize heat generation by using efficient design, quality components and well placed thermal zones on the PCB.  Ideally achieving a purely passive solution.  However, I am sure we all know, that this level of engineering is a complex game that optimizes cost, features, complexity and function.

Once the thermal load function from a device is known,  the airflow required to cool it is  "determined".    I assume that thermal point loads in a "scope" would not need or require heat pipes or other more expensive esoteric cooling solutions.  At least I have not seen it yet in a mid scope teardown.

Since heat is usually a function of "load" the quietest solution will generally have the following characteristic.

1) No fan stage - use of passive cooling only  (Characteristically large cooling grate big holes and lots of them.  Minimally obstructed air flow over cooling elements )
2) Fan Stage  - Fan is under PWM control to vary the flow rate as needed and minimize fan RPM noise. Not necessary if you engineered for a low thermal load and maximized passive cooling options. (engineering in style) .. an inexpensive fan at low RPM.

It will be interesting to see Dave's teardown of the RTB2004,  Based on the pictures ..  Lots of Big holes ..  unobstructed interior.. extremely low measured sound specification.   
My guess.. RTB scopes are a properly engineered solution designed for the long term.  Part of why I bought one. :-+

BTW the 25 db from my wall clock comes from the click of the second hand when your ear is about 75 cm away. a soft whisper like "tick" sadly there is no "tock" 

SPL meters are so fun .. NOT!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 18, 2017, 02:36:58 pm
I've been trying to snag one in Canada.

I have yet to hear back from Test Force.

Hopefully Monday.

I called them directly by phone to place my order.  It was placed with the local office here in Ottawa.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: stuartk on March 18, 2017, 02:49:29 pm
Quote
I called them directly by phone to place my order.  It was placed with the local office here in Ottawa.

Hi irakandjii, I live in Ottawa also.

If I may ask, what did they charge you in Canadian funds?

Regards,

Stuart
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 18, 2017, 03:41:42 pm
I'd preffer implementation of lua for own processing alghorithm implementation.

Why Lua? JavaScript is much more widely known, and there is V8. Quick Google results:
https://realmensch.org/2016/05/28/goodbye-lua/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_(JavaScript_engine)
For web-developer moving into Arduino is a breeze because it's almost like JavaScript.
Think JavaScript-like processing will reach wider audience.

Lua because it's simplicity. But you are right it can be dead end now.
JavaScript ?  If the result will be still on the web - OK.
For advanced maths processing let's go further - Python + numpy or API for MathLab even.
Works from Raspi to superpower machines.
But hey - I've read the users manual. They  provide it's own command language engine
accessible via web ... doors for external computing has already been opened :-)

By the way: Have you noticed that tequipment gives special discount for eevblog memebers ? :
https://youtu.be/oQdEq5BHoyQ

Is RTB2004 price droping ?   ... just kidding :D


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 18, 2017, 03:51:13 pm
What happened to this video? Why are there black bars on the side? Make his hands look big and face look small? :palm: Yes this is a rethorical question to point out something stupid!  :box:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 03:57:30 pm
Regarding MATLAB and accessing real time data, I found this video on the R&S website:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/videos_5/application_5/RTB2000_USB_live_file_and_setup_access_720p_HQ.mp4

This document also provides some info.

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Import_ac_en_3607-0446-92_v0100.pdf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 18, 2017, 04:10:39 pm
Regarding MATLAB and accessing real time data, I found this video on the R&S website:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/videos_5/application_5/RTB2000_USB_live_file_and_setup_access_720p_HQ.mp4

This document also provides some info.

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Import_ac_en_3607-0446-92_v0100.pdf

Thank you for those sources. It can be usefull in case of postprocessing.
I'm thinking rather of upgrading lack of math functions of RTB2004. That means live processing data
and compute live stream on the fly ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 18, 2017, 05:08:11 pm
Quote
I called them directly by phone to place my order.  It was placed with the local office here in Ottawa.

Hi irakandjii, I live in Ottawa also.

If I may ask, what did they charge you in Canadian funds?

Regards,

Stuart

It was the standard 1.37 exchange rate times the $2080.00 US price.  The exchange rate sux.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 19, 2017, 10:30:28 am
Is there somewhere deep comparision table between RTO RTE RTM and RTB ?
Why it's better (?) of buying 400MHz 14k$ used RTO rather than 300MHz new RTB2004 2k$ ( special) or 7k$ regular with options ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 19, 2017, 10:57:35 am
Generally, beside the obvious bandwidth, memory, decoding capability and sample rate difference,  scopes like the RTO series provide software to do compliance testing like USB, PCIe, Ethernet 1000BASE-T, 10G, D-PHY etc. and very advanced signal analysis like jitter and various clock recovery applications.

There are also hardware options like more accurate reference oscillators, IQ processing, solid state disks, operation systems that can run analysis software and process real time data with custom signal processing functions. All of this is something you're not likely to see in lower cost hardware. Last but not least, the high end scopes provide the probing solutions needed to actually get the signal into the scope (e.g. probe interfaces for active probes)

The last two pages of this brochure should give you a first impression of the major differences:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 19, 2017, 11:58:33 am
This document:
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/Scope_FamilyFlyer_e_3607_0946_32_V0600_Einzelseiten~1.pdf
seems to have the same (?, one has "new stickers", the other doesn't) table Neganur found and an additional table with more comparisons among the different families
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 19, 2017, 01:47:28 pm
From that document it does look like the RTB2000 math functions have been neutered on purpose.  :(   Hmmm.....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on March 19, 2017, 06:16:09 pm
Well probably R&S's way to differentiating its product lines. They probably feel the "hobby" or low technician user except those in transmission testing (ie their only 50 \$\Omega\$ scope in the "lower" end of their offering) don't need heavy maths.   Add and Invert (aka subtract) is about the only math that is absolutely mandatory on a scope in my opinion... as it is fundamental to taking good measurements on a scope in my experience.  That said, Ive seen some fun things done with higher math functions, but those would have to be.. two families up?... the RTE1000 level instrument line, as its more than math-on-math.

It seems that the RTB2000's focus for this model is the user wanting to catch the stray signal. With a much higher stated waveform per second rate with a higher end ADC, far more likely to find that 1-in-a-million signal, and small noise in free-running. So they spent the silicon money for that. (I really hope Dave or someone can test to see if its waves/s actually is up there).

Not that I of course would love a scope with smooth 2048 gradient persistence with any math function that can throw it on the screen nearly as fast as it can acquire it, that can do 50 \$\Omega\$ or high impedance,  capturing the 1-in-a-billion signal... but yeah...   I think the high end scope mfg still want to have a wide product line, instead of narrowing down more.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 19, 2017, 07:27:36 pm
They are clearly targetting the DSOX2000, as the feature set is basically a straight copy, and they're hoping to  differentiate with the touchscreen/UI, 10 bit ADC and I/O features.

The main maths function I'd like to see is integration, as this can be useful for measuring current draw of devices that vary a lot in different modes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: jjoonathan on March 19, 2017, 07:37:03 pm
They are clearly targetting the DSOX2000, as the feature set is basically a straight copy, and they're hoping to  differentiate with the touchscreen/UI, 10 bit ADC and I/O features.

The main maths function I'd like to see is integration, as this can be useful for measuring current draw of devices that vary a lot in different modes.

Integration is also useful for measuring small capacitance and inductance, as popularized by the Black Magic book.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: exe on March 19, 2017, 09:00:42 pm
There is still a huge disconnect with the FOSS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open-source_software) and the electronics hardware and test equipment sectors. FOSS isn't perfect, and it's not for everyone. But it's exactly the markets like hobbyists, semi-professionals, enthusiasts which have benefitted and contributed the most to projects in this sector. And it's exactly the same people who would stand to benefit here.

Exactly my thoughts every time I see yet another buggy/slow firmware, especially on Chinese gear. I hope one day a company like rigol just let people run their software on _their_ equipment (okay, okay, I know about red pitaya). I honestly don't understand why they don't do that. Unless development costs are insignificant for them (who knows, may there are just a few interns working on it) and they don't want low-priced gear to become too powerful.

Actually, I think all these stupid limitations (no serial decoding, BW limiting, etc) are fear-driven. And it seems the only real game changer on the market are Asian companies :).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kwass on March 19, 2017, 10:11:24 pm
Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions:  "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of.  Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision.   I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 20, 2017, 12:20:39 am
Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions:  "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of.  Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision.   I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.

I really hope this is true! I looked, however, at the brochure
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf Mentioned by Neganur in an earlier post.

The brochure  states that the HMO1202 is in a different math classification "Basic / (math on math)" vs the RTB2004 which is "elementary".  I don't understand the reasoning but it seems that is the way it is.  I too wonder if it is a technical limitation or a marketing choice?  And if the latter, might there be a future option?

Perhaps R&S Rich has some insight?

To be honest it is unclear to me how important advanced math features are to me personally.  I do see the rational for integration (area under the curve between cursors) and differentiation (slope at a point).  However, the value of  some of the other math functions (ln(), exponential() etc. available on alternative products) are less clear to me.  (They make me think of my old analog computer system "control & feedback" days with op amps, inverters etc) 

Mr Wolf has convinced me that some very interesting things can be done with "scope math" so.  To mitigate the risk that (maybe I will need them in the future?) I reviewed the manual under "Remote commands" and it appears you could write an external script to: a)  setup the scope, b) then download waveforms of interest c) process the waveform data in a remote application.  I suspect this is a less than optimum solution for most folks.  It is labor intensive, error prone, not real time, fairly complex to program and requires a lot of foreknowledge about the signals. 

But then again, maybe there is an opportunity for a remote "super UI" that looks the same but has all the computational bells and whistles.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 20, 2017, 02:43:35 am
Question to Rich from R&S on the R&S®RTB-B6 option - Signal Generator

I watched the video from Watt Circuit at the beginning of this thread and saw the function generator has sweep capability plus some other functions.  I have been unable to find details in the manual or online for this option.  I can find specification sheet only.

Is there an available source you could point me to please?

I would like to understand the sweep capabilities for example:
a) the types of sweep available linear, log? etc.
b) constraints if any on selectable freq. ranges for the sweep  (begin freq. -  end freq.)
c) constraints if any on the sweep time.    (lower limit < elapsed sweep time < upper limit)

I would also like to understand better the abilities of the Pattern generator to generate arbitrary patterns (programmable sequences?)

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 20, 2017, 05:55:29 am
I would like to understand the sweep capabilities for example:
a) the types of sweep available linear, log? etc.
b) constraints if any on selectable freq. ranges for the sweep  (begin freq. -  end freq.)
c) constraints if any on the sweep time.    (lower limit < elapsed sweep time < upper limit)

According to ( in polish) :
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlsPaAF6Zuk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlsPaAF6Zuk)

generator description is shown starting from 5:20
swept linear and log 8:48
modulation AM/FM/ASK/FSK 9:25
gen end 9:40

arbitrary 8:30 ( NDN logo ) has been done externaly
("There is no internal editor so logo has been prepared in external editor and has been loaded into RTB2004 internal generator")

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: knotlogic on March 20, 2017, 06:50:56 am
Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
Hopefully this is a glitch pending it being in stock.

http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

It's available in Australia as well but no where near the 2K USD deal :(

http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

And Singapore too:

http://sg.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&categoryIdBox=&selectedCategoryId=&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://sg.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&categoryIdBox=&selectedCategoryId=&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

That's about USD 4082 at current exchange rates.  :rant:  Maybe it's a Farnell/Element 14 thing.

That said I can't quite justify shelling out for it anyway.  A pity, it looks like a really good deal.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 20, 2017, 09:25:33 am
As mentioned earlier, the deal was offered to all their distributors, but they didn't want it, presumably as they make more on their other, more expensive brands. The Farnell "offer" is just all options included at the 300MHz price.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 20, 2017, 02:00:29 pm
Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions:  "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of.  Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision.   I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.

The brochure  states that the HMO1202 is in a different math classification "Basic / (math on math)" vs the RTB2004 which is "elementary".  I don't understand the reasoning but it seems that is the way it is.  I too wonder if it is a technical limitation or a marketing choice?  And if the latter, might there be a future option?

Perhaps R&S Rich has some insight?

The current math capability is the basic math functions described.  Having said that, I really appreciate getting additional feedback and will absolutely pass this on to the design team Germany.  No promises that it will be implemented, but the more feedback we hear the more likely something is to happen, so please don't hesitate to keep passing it on.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 20, 2017, 02:07:57 pm
Question to Rich from R&S on the R&S®RTB-B6 option - Signal Generator

I watched the video from Watt Circuit at the beginning of this thread and saw the function generator has sweep capability plus some other functions.  I have been unable to find details in the manual or online for this option.  I can find specification sheet only.

Is there an available source you could point me to please?

I would like to understand the sweep capabilities for example:
a) the types of sweep available linear, log? etc.
b) constraints if any on selectable freq. ranges for the sweep  (begin freq. -  end freq.)
c) constraints if any on the sweep time.    (lower limit < elapsed sweep time < upper limit)

I would also like to understand better the abilities of the Pattern generator to generate arbitrary patterns (programmable sequences?)

Thanks in advance
Here's a quick overview:

a) the types of sweep available linear, log? etc.
Linear and Log.
b) constraints if any on selectable freq. ranges for the sweep  (begin freq. -  end freq.)
Start Min: 1Hz
Stop Max:  25MHz
c) constraints if any on the sweep time.    (lower limit < elapsed sweep time < upper limit)
I don't have this handy - I'll see if I can find any documentation on it.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on March 20, 2017, 05:00:49 pm
Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions:  "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of.  Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision.   I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.

The brochure  states that the HMO1202 is in a different math classification "Basic / (math on math)" vs the RTB2004 which is "elementary".  I don't understand the reasoning but it seems that is the way it is.  I too wonder if it is a technical limitation or a marketing choice?  And if the latter, might there be a future option?

Perhaps R&S Rich has some insight?

The current math capability is the basic math functions described.  Having said that, I really appreciate getting additional feedback and will absolutely pass this on to the design team Germany.  No promises that it will be implemented, but the more feedback we hear the more likely something is to happen, so please don't hesitate to keep passing it on.

-Rich

Yup, that's a bummer. I have a DS1000Z and while the new RTB2000 is superior in many ways, I know I will miss the more advanced math.

The Rigol has more operations ( addition (A+B), subtraction (A-B), multiplication (AxB), division (A/B), FFT, A&&B, A||B, A^B, !A, Intg, Diff, Sqrt, Lg, Ln, Exp and Abs, low/high/band pass filtering.) according to the manual and can also cascade operations once with one intermediate variable (so you can do Ch1+Ch2+Ch3) - they call this "Fx operation". While I see how arbitrary formulas could be considered a differentiation feature for higher scope, basic maths as in the Rigol (more operation and basic cascading) are par for the course these days (even if the Keysight 2k don't do them either...).
I personally have used the cascading, intg, diff and will miss them if they are not in the RTB2000 (which they clearly are not right now).

It looks like there is also a deficit in triggering types (I haven't looked closely). Things like N-th edge or setup/hold are useful.

DS1000Z manual below for reference  ;)

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-050a/1/-/-/-/-/MSO1000Z%26DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-050a/1/-/-/-/-/MSO1000Z%26DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 20, 2017, 05:49:40 pm
Looking at the manual for R&S's HMO series of oscilloscopes (comparably in price to the RTB2000), I see that they offer two kinds of math functions:  "Quick Math" which is just add/ subtract/multiply/divide and "Formula Editor" which has pretty much everything you can think of.  Since this scope seems to just have the "quick math" functions, I wonder if R&S plans on releasing the "formula editor" functions either as an add-on or in a later firmware revision.   I hope it's the latter reason and they just need time to re-work the math functions for 10 bits instead of 8.

The brochure  states that the HMO1202 is in a different math classification "Basic / (math on math)" vs the RTB2004 which is "elementary".  I don't understand the reasoning but it seems that is the way it is.  I too wonder if it is a technical limitation or a marketing choice?  And if the latter, might there be a future option?

Perhaps R&S Rich has some insight?

The current math capability is the basic math functions described.  Having said that, I really appreciate getting additional feedback and will absolutely pass this on to the design team Germany.  No promises that it will be implemented, but the more feedback we hear the more likely something is to happen, so please don't hesitate to keep passing it on.

-Rich

Yup, that's a bummer. I have a DS1000Z and while the new RTB2000 is superior in many ways, I know I will miss the more advanced math.

The Rigol has more operations ( addition (A+B), subtraction (A-B), multiplication (AxB), division (A/B), FFT, A&&B, A||B, A^B, !A, Intg, Diff, Sqrt, Lg, Ln, Exp and Abs, low/high/band pass filtering.) according to the manual and can also cascade operations once with one intermediate variable (so you can do Ch1+Ch2+Ch3) - they call this "Fx operation". While I see how arbitrary formulas could be considered a differentiation feature for higher scope, basic maths as in the Rigol (more operation and basic cascading) are par for the course these days (even if the Keysight 2k don't do them either...).
I personally have used the cascading, intg, diff and will miss them if they are not in the RTB2000 (which they clearly are not right now).

It looks like there is also a deficit in triggering types (I haven't looked closely). Things like N-th edge or setup/hold are useful.

DS1000Z manual below for reference  ;)

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-050a/1/-/-/-/-/MSO1000Z%26DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-050a/1/-/-/-/-/MSO1000Z%26DS1000Z_UserGuide.pdf)

Yup, it is a bit of a puzzle.  Given the quality and level of support (expected and delivered) from Tier 1 suppliers.  I would have thought that this was their dominant competitive advantage not "choking" available features like math & triggers.     

As R&S Rich says in a previous post, our feedback may have a positive impact (crosses fingers).

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 20, 2017, 06:50:25 pm
DS1000Z ... Diff

Nope. Does not have that one ;)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg1101476/#msg1101476 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000z-series-(ds1054z-ds1074z-ds1104z-and-s-models)-bugswish-list/msg1101476/#msg1101476)

As for R&S - not having integration is a bit mocking IMHO. It is like DMM w/o TRMS, a bit too basic for modern times... at least considering price.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 20, 2017, 07:26:11 pm
I don't know about the price argument, seeing that none but the two top series of R&S scopes had any advanced math and looking at the price of the HMO 2k 3k series, I can't help but feel the RTB is already priced very competitively.

I could imagine that designing a scope takes some years and that just a couple of years back not so many hobbyists could afford scopes with the features we are offered today. So I am led to believe that this is R&S consciously not putting the math in there rather than 'crippling'.

Compared to the functionality implemented in the Megazoom ASIC which then is deliberately disabled or offered as paid option is perhaps a testament of Keysight's better ability to plan their scope model's feature.

So I think R&S simply did not have math on the list for the RTB but is perhaps able to listen to the customer's feedback that this math is indeed a wanted feature, and they can implement it in firmware updates.

Asking a customer what he wants usually ends in feature creep :P
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: widlarizer on March 20, 2017, 10:57:09 pm
Has someone experience with buying the special edition RTB 2004 at tequipment in combination with "Shipito".(Im from Europe  :palm:)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 20, 2017, 11:14:21 pm
Has someone experience with buying the special edition RTB 2004 at tequipment in combination with "Shipito".(Im from Europe  :palm:)
From a friend in the UK : Testequity would not ship to an address they knew was a forwarder, ditto Newark.
He does have an order with another US supplier that hasn't been declined (yet).

I'm trying to find out more info from R&S UK, may have more info tomorrow when I go to R&S UK to pick up my review unit.   

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on March 21, 2017, 05:47:29 am
After running across this link https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPbIMiK2z7A1XlibvC_oeHpnVmdtBCRHpku1VCgOQeFJkAnn2-D7TXspDXSnQ2tEg?key=aU5nRnVwMl92R0pweWpPcE8tVi05OERkUDlTU3Zn (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPbIMiK2z7A1XlibvC_oeHpnVmdtBCRHpku1VCgOQeFJkAnn2-D7TXspDXSnQ2tEg?key=aU5nRnVwMl92R0pweWpPcE8tVi05OERkUDlTU3Zn) and the little video mixed in with the pictures, I'm feeling better about the displayed waveform update rate.

And unless there is a fan in the powersupply  shield, im not seeing one through any of the vent cut-outs, so this may be mostly passively cooled. Hard to say, as they could have one buried away...  (Keithley DMM7510 comes to mind in crazy fan location design).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on March 21, 2017, 06:12:47 am
(Keithley DMM7510 comes to mind in crazy fan location design).

And it is loud!  :(
I think, if R&S did use a similiar cooler design as in the HMO1232 (there is a review from Dave), then it would be much quieter than my DMM 7510.
And for me this is acceptable.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on March 21, 2017, 06:53:33 am

I think, if R&S did use a similiar cooler design as in the HMO1232 (there is a review from Dave), then it would be much quieter than my DMM 7510.
And for me this is acceptable.

Yeah after watching that video again (making me happier about my purchase) and looking at the pictures again, I found it..  they've done another diagonal fan on the high compliance mounting, this time into the shielded part on the bottom.  Based on the mount looking the same, I bet its the same ~ 19dB(A) fan.. so yeah... not going to really be able to hear it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 21, 2017, 07:57:26 am
Does anybody know what kind of logic probe is suitable for RTB2004 ?
I assume there is no one in promo package (only software option is enabled)
and this is not just a straight 250MHz wires ... :-)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 21, 2017, 08:38:34 am
Does anybody know what kind of logic probe is suitable for RTB2004 ?
I assume there is no one in promo package (only software option is enabled)
and this is not just a straight 250MHz wires ... :-)
Why would you assume it wouldn't be included? It's sold as a MSO.
 On the RTO, the probe has the comparators and LVDS drivers to send a differential signal over the ribbon.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 21, 2017, 08:58:00 am
Why would you assume it wouldn't be included? It's sold as a MSO.
 On the RTO, the probe has the comparators and LVDS drivers to send a differential signal over the ribbon.

Maybe it's a little overthink of myself but tequipment says clearly that there are:

What's In The Box
(1) RTB2004 Digital oscilloscope (70 MHz 4 channel)
(1) RTB-B243 Upgrade of R&S RTB2004 oscilloscope to 300 MHz bandwidth
(1) RTB-B1 Mixed Signal Upgrade for non-MSO models (250 MHz)
(1) RTB-B6 ARB Generator
(1) RTB-K1 I2C/SPI Trigger and Decode
(1) RTB-K2 UART/RS232 Trigger and Decode
(1) RTB-K3 CAN/LIN Trigger and Decode
(1) RTB-K15 History and Segment Meomry
(1) RT-ZP03 300 MHz/10 MHz, 10:1/1:1, 10 M?/1 M?, 400 V, 12 pF/82 pF Single-ended Passive Probe
(1) Power Cord

I've found that some other source say 4 Analog probes so I hope (1) does not mean one piece of ... in this case. But I can't found pictures/spec etc. what does RTB-B1 include. I've spoke to one of the distributors and he was very uncetrain about those logic probe. I feelt that he do not want to say for potential buyer that there is none.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on March 21, 2017, 10:18:45 am

I've found that some other source say 4 Analog probes so I hope (1) does not mean one piece of ... in this case. But I can't found pictures/spec etc. what does RTB-B1 include. I've spoke to one of the distributors and he was very uncetrain about those logic probe. I feelt that he do not want to say for potential buyer that there is none.

R&S is saying here, that the basic model RTB2004 - 70MHz comes with four probes:                          edit: typo
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf    ---   see page 13

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 21, 2017, 11:19:14 am
Typically, an mso upgrade includes probes and a some kind of entitlement to generate a license key on the R&S website. However, in the case of this special offer, since the distributiors have 4 weeks lead time, maybe they're factory special packed. None of the scopes comes with the logic pods per default unless you buy the option at the time of purchase.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 21, 2017, 11:31:20 am
Something that makes me wonder is that all the listed accessory probes (current probes, HV diff probes etc.) are 50 ohm. Free feed through terminator included ...?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 21, 2017, 11:43:12 am
Incoming!
Let me know any specific questions. At show today so can't play til later.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 21, 2017, 11:58:38 am
Incoming!
Let me know any specific questions. At show today so can't play til later.

Unboxing. What is in the package ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrBungle on March 21, 2017, 11:59:32 am
*sigh* So jealous.
Can't wait for the vid.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: jjoonathan on March 21, 2017, 12:19:14 pm
Incoming!
Let me know any specific questions. At show today so can't play til later.
Why does that mirror have knobs on the side?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 21, 2017, 12:25:44 pm
huh. looked nicer in photo/other video
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: stuartk on March 21, 2017, 02:07:51 pm
I purchased my scope from TestForce here in Canada.

According to them the MSO logic probes are included.

I reviewed the R&S website. There is no option to purchase logic probes or logic pods separately from the MSO option.

I thinks it's reasonable to conclude that the logic probe comes with the MSO option.

If it doesn't, R&S will have a lot of very unhappy customers.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 21, 2017, 03:02:40 pm
Incoming!
Let me know any specific questions. At show today so can't play til later.

Does the UI work smothly, and does the display, typically, update at a decent rate? How are the decoding functions?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: trevwhite on March 21, 2017, 03:12:43 pm
I asked R&S UK about the MSO and the person I spoke with was under the impression the digital probes are not included. I would try and clarify this because it is an expensive addition.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Skagit on March 21, 2017, 03:41:45 pm
Testequity states under the Mixed Signal Option:

"Rohde & Schwarz RTB-B1.02 Mixed Signal Option (250 MHz)
 Adds 16 digital channels (hardware option). (1333.1105.02)  "

Which would point to the logic probes being included in that option. I believe the hmo series doesn't require you to unlock the LA feature, you just need to plug the probes in. It looks like the RTB is the same way.
Title: Cancelled my Tequipment order
Post by: agdr on March 21, 2017, 03:42:17 pm
Nevermind.  :) I've spoken with Tequipment this morning and cancelled the cancellation. I'm even buying a second one from another vendor.  Good work R&S on this scope!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: corn11 on March 21, 2017, 03:56:33 pm
Does the UI work smothly, and does the display, typically, update at a decent rate? How are the decoding functions?

Thats also one of my major concerns. I've really hated my DS1054Z for the slowish UI.

Altough the KS DSOX2K series is realtively old now, the 30%-off trade-in deal looks kind of appealing to me and the special RTB deal even more but not at the european price point  |O. On the other hand KS might release the successor of the DSOX2K earlier than before to compete against the RTB ?

So the question is, is the RTB2004 base model (without any options) worth considering when you could get a DSO-X2004A for ~600€ less (ex. VAT) (also hackable) or is it maybe better to wait for while ? :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 21, 2017, 04:00:55 pm
On the other hand KS might release the successor of the DSOX2K earlier than before to compete against the RTB ?

buit with what? a new asic they haven't even introduced yet? i'd rather put my money on a keysight dsox-2000T
AFAIR there are some things the dsox2000 can't do, like trigger on MSO and multi-channel pattern generator.
wether you need them is another story
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TAMHAN on March 21, 2017, 04:08:48 pm
Sorry for being late to the party - I had the guy in my hands at embeddedworld:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjNcjYQEeCM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjNcjYQEeCM)

I am not going to grab it. Multiple reasons:
a) Shit expensive options
b) The scope is real small
c) The pattern generator is lobotomized
d) the "Menu bar" at the right hand of the screen is very sleek

Tam
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JanJansen on March 21, 2017, 04:24:14 pm
http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm)

EUR 1900.-- + VAT
It is interesting that this website lists Hameg MSO probes as an acessoiry. I think there is more Hameg under the hood than R&S. I hope this scope has the BNCs bolted to the front and the PCB properly fixed to the chassis unlike the cheaply built Hameg scopes.

edit: OMG: they use ribbon cable for the MSO probes which cost over 300 euro each:
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/ho3516/Rohde_&_Schwarz-ho3516-b7.jpg)
 :palm:
Title: Re: Cancelled my Tequipment order
Post by: NA5WH on March 21, 2017, 04:47:58 pm
Well it looks like this one isn't going to happen.  >:(  The story at Tequipment has changed.  On Friday I was told the unit had been shipped by the R&S warehouse and they would get it in 2 day to reship to me.  I had placed the order at 5AM the morning of the announcement.  Now they are telling me May 3, maybe.  >:( 

Noticed on the TestEquity site "Temporarily Sold Out. Delivery for all new orders is 30 days. Approximately 11 left for new orders as of 3/20 - Place your order before supplies run out completely!"

Still unclear if all scope sold are "new orders" and "delivery for all new orders is 30 days" or if at some point in the past  was okay and that new orders now (for the 11 additional .... allocated?... scopes) is 30 days.   Either way, my "expected date" is 0000-00-00 .

Wonder if R&S just allocated x-number for all of NA, and was going to fulfill direct from EU, but under-estimated the demand...   or if it was a calculated hook to get sales but their were not ready (so far all the versions I've seen on off-hand pictures are identified as "beta" firmware).   But then again, Mike got his hands on his... *shrugs*       I don't mind pre-ordering things, but wish that was made more clear initially, instead of the marking information that said stock was available at their regional distributors.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 21, 2017, 04:55:17 pm

Does the UI work smothly, and does the display, typically, update at a decent rate? How are the decoding functions?

Quick first impression - some UI aspects are fractionally more sluggish than you might like, e.g. rotary but probably not enough to be annoying. Probably the most annoying thing so far is the position and general entry knobs are detented.
UART Decode looks reasonably good, though datasheet says UART to 32Mbaud but it seems to stop at 3Mbaud. I have queried this as IMO 3M is too low.
I've also had the touchscreen completely stop working on one occasion, needing a power cycle to restore.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JanJansen on March 21, 2017, 05:02:16 pm
I,m happy i did not bought a 4 year old scope at this moment,
oh wait, no serial decoding for free ?

Given that R&S are the only company to ever approach me to have hack material removed from the website,

(BTW, they never did get back to me on exact which posts violated their copyright...)

More copyright infrigments soon ?, i might buy this scope then, glad i waited.

A "true game changer" would be to simply make good scopes, with no ransom payments to enable crippled hardware features.

Don't forget as a buyer you are also paying for the counterproductive development of the security features and obfuscation they had to build into the machine to protect their precious cripple-ware tricks.

I could not say it better, thank you for these words, i will repeat it to others, its a no brainer.

I hope this scope has the BNCs bolted to the front and the PCB properly fixed to the chassis unlike the cheaply built Hameg scopes.

The picture dont seems like it, i was looking instantly, maybe they did not read your comments, or wanto save 1 euro ? ( only gold bolts on a gold BNC looks nice)

Let's see if they do a promotion with free decode options as they have done in the past. 800 bucks for UART, I2C and SPI is insane.

Hooraay for the promotion action, yes €800 is insane in 2017, what did they make ?, they already had the software made so it should be free, soon 3rd party promotion actions? , lets wait!
Title: Re: Cancelled my Tequipment order
Post by: kkessler on March 21, 2017, 05:11:53 pm

Noticed on the TestEquity site "Temporarily Sold Out. Delivery for all new orders is 30 days. Approximately 11 left for new orders as of 3/20 - Place your order before supplies run out completely!"

Still unclear if all scope sold are "new orders" and "delivery for all new orders is 30 days" or if at some point in the past  was okay and that new orders now (for the 11 additional .... allocated?... scopes) is 30 days.   Either way, my "expected date" is 0000-00-00 .


I ordered mine as soon as I heard about it on March 15th, and I was just told it is going to be "about 4 weeks" until delivery.  It wasn't until several days after I ordered it that they put the Temporarily Sold Out banner up, so I too and somewhat curious as to what is going on.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kkessler on March 21, 2017, 05:25:23 pm
I asked R&S UK about the MSO and the person I spoke with was under the impression the digital probes are not included. I would try and clarify this because it is an expensive addition.

On the page for the RTB-B1 Mixed Signal Option on the R&S web page, there is a specification for input impedance of 100 k? ± 2 % || ~4 pF (meas.) at probe tips, which implies to me that, in order for the probes to have input impedance, they have to exist.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 21, 2017, 05:29:44 pm
Hi,

I'm new here, but a long term electronics hobbyist and ordered the RTB2k deal at TestEquity.
Got an order confirmation and an expected ship date of 2017-03-31.

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on March 21, 2017, 05:51:20 pm
These are images I've seen of the logic pods for this scope. I'm expecting they are included with the MSO option.

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-B1-Oszilloskop-Mixed-Signal-Option.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-B1-Oszilloskop-Mixed-Signal-Option.htm)
(on the table in this clip) https://youtu.be/SqrGF5yNYe8?t=256 (https://youtu.be/SqrGF5yNYe8?t=256)

To me they look nearly identical to the ones for the HMO1000, although in specs for the RTB I'm seeing 250MHz max whereas the HMO pod listed 350MHz (maybe just a re-spec instead of a HW change?).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: stuartk on March 21, 2017, 05:51:50 pm
Hi Mike,
Quote
Quick first impression - some UI aspects are fractionally more sluggish than you might like, e.g. rotary but probably not enough to be annoying. Probably the most annoying thing so far is the position and general entry knobs are detented.
UART Decode looks reasonably good, though datasheet says UART to 32Mbaud but it seems to stop at 3Mbaud. I have queried this as IMO 3M is too low.
I've also had the touchscreen completely stop working on one occasion, needing a power cycle to restore.

Did it come with the digital logic probes for the MSO?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 21, 2017, 06:00:25 pm
The remote web access is awesome - it's pretty much like having the scope in front of you.
Even worked pretty well via my phone/wifi, though screen size makes the UI knobs less useable
Title: Re: Cancelled my Tequipment order
Post by: pm.llb on March 21, 2017, 06:21:54 pm
It all seems pretty clear -- the distributors had a few units they could ship quickly, and all remaining orders will come from the next shipment.  The 11 number is how many units TestEquity have left to sell from their promo allocation, and has no relationship to the timing of shipments.  Probably that number will fluctuate, I'm sure a few people will end up cancelling their orders.

Mike got a demo unit in the UK, so that has no connection at all with sale units in the US.

5-6 weeks of delivery ( 05'17) ? They probably are sitting now 24/7 and glueing parts together to meet the orders. Does anybody know where scopes are assemblied ? Hopefully not in China .
In the other way, if there were some late hw/sw updates it should be delivered in the second wave ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: corn11 on March 21, 2017, 06:26:36 pm
It all seems pretty clear -- the distributors had a few units they could ship quickly, and all remaining orders will come from the next shipment.  The 11 number is how many units TestEquity have left to sell from their promo allocation, and has no relationship to the timing of shipments.  Probably that number will fluctuate, I'm sure a few people will end up cancelling their orders.

Mike got a demo unit in the UK, so that has no connection at all with sale units in the US.

5-6 weeks of delivery ( 05'17) ? They probably are sitting now 24/7 and glueings parts together to meet orders. Does anybody know where scopes are assemblied ? Hopefully not in China . In the other way, if there were some late software updates it should be delivered in the second wave ...

They're probably manufactured at the R&S factory in the Czech Republic.

edit: I haven't remembered that correctly, the factory in Vimperk, CZ already belonged to R&S before they've bought Hameg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hameg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hameg)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 21, 2017, 06:29:46 pm
The UK people are currently talking to each other to see if they can offer a launch deal.
Will post if I hear more. Apparently Farnell should have stock any day ( but at list price ATM).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 21, 2017, 06:31:58 pm
It all seems pretty clear -- the distributors had a few units they could ship quickly, and all remaining orders will come from the next shipment.  The 11 number is how many units TestEquity have left to sell from their promo allocation, and has no relationship to the timing of shipments.  Probably that number will fluctuate, I'm sure a few people will end up cancelling their orders.

Mike got a demo unit in the UK, so that has no connection at all with sale units in the US.

5-6 weeks of delivery ( 05'17) ? They probably are sitting now 24/7 and glueings parts together to meet orders. Does anybody know where scopes are assemblied ? Hopefully not in China . In the other way, if there were some late software updates it should be delivered in the second wave ...

They're probably manufactured at the former Hameg factory in the Czech Republic.
No indication of manufacture location on unit or packaging
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 21, 2017, 07:06:53 pm
confirmed shipping day for me is 28.04.  that's 6 weeks since the day of placing the order 16.03. ugh...(and they already have the money)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 21, 2017, 07:17:24 pm
The remote web access is awesome - it's pretty much like having the scope in front of you.
Even worked pretty well via my phone/wifi, though screen size makes the UI knobs less useable

That's good to hear, I just assumed it'd be useless like some others.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on March 21, 2017, 07:53:22 pm
Just got 04/28 shipment date from TEquipment (ordered Friday).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on March 21, 2017, 08:47:18 pm
R&S released 3 more marketing videos, all short and pretty unhelpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA2zYYLr_OI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA2zYYLr_OI)
Waveform Gen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXDjZq_ceOw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXDjZq_ceOw)
Logic Analyzer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tvAf4J4Tjs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tvAf4J4Tjs)
Annotation tool.

*shrugs*     Come on Mike, we're dieing to get some real info  ^-^

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 21, 2017, 10:06:20 pm
Just finishing quick first impressions and teardown - not sure if I have the energy  to edit tonight.
After that will do a few vids covering particular areas as there's way too much to do a comprehensive review on one go. ( assuming it works after i put it back together!)

Only minor downsides so far :
Detented fine/position knobs.
Wfms/sec not stellar, and reduces with memory depth -  pretty much par for the course with a non-ASIC design.
Touchscreen hung once.
UART decode only up to 3MBaud ( Datasheet says 32 but possibly a typo - have made enquiries)
UI more sluggish than Keysight, but don't think too annoying - time will tell.
Shiny screen is very fingermarky. They should ship it with a cloth.

Lots and lots of good stuff though - launch bundle is still a total no-brainer if you can get it.

And nobody can complain about the PSU. Nichicon caps and the PSU is a stock item in Digikey!

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 21, 2017, 10:10:20 pm
For clarity: the PSU is an off-the-shelve part?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: trevwhite on March 21, 2017, 10:14:45 pm
Mike, how would you say it holds up against the MSOX3000A series? I know its target is the 2000 series but am curious as it looks a nice piece of kit.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 21, 2017, 10:48:08 pm
Mike, how would you say it holds up against the MSOX3000A series? I know its target is the 2000 series but am curious as it looks a nice piece of kit.
Major pros and cons both ways. Will go into more detail later, definitely no clear winner, and will depend a lot on what you need.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 21, 2017, 10:49:14 pm
For clarity: the PSU is an off-the-shelve part?
Yes.
http://www.digikey.co.uk/product-detail/en/xp-power/ECS65US12/1470-1296-ND/4487677 (http://www.digikey.co.uk/product-detail/en/xp-power/ECS65US12/1470-1296-ND/4487677)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 21, 2017, 11:21:45 pm
Mike, how would you say it holds up against the MSOX3000A series? I know its target is the 2000 series but am curious as it looks a nice piece of kit.

3000A can be upgraded to 1G.,.. 2000 only to 200Mhz..     it seems to me it sits inbtween a 2000 and 3000?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 21, 2017, 11:59:33 pm
Mike, how would you say it holds up against the MSOX3000A series? I know its target is the 2000 series but am curious as it looks a nice piece of kit.

3000A can be upgraded to 1G.,.. 2000 only to 200Mhz..     it seems to me it sits inbtween a 2000 and 3000?

Interesting a Keysight
MSOX3034A Mixed Signal Oscilloscope, with options is ~$12,500 (US)
MSOX2024A Mixed Signal Oscilloscope, with options    ~$  4,800 (US)

I look forward to the comparisons

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 22, 2017, 12:00:43 am
How is it for low level sensitivity and triggering, say with a 20Hz, 500µV sine wave?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 12:52:25 am
How is it for low level sensitivity and triggering, say with a 20Hz, 500µV sine wave?
Pretty good - there is a few mV offset on trigger level. Self-cal reduces this a bit but not entirely.
At 1mv/div with the input unconnected there's about half a div worst-case noise, in peak-det mode at max waveform intensity, right up to 300MHz.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 22, 2017, 01:07:31 am
That seems pretty noisy. Does the noise get less at less sensitive input settings? Or put differently: does the noise come from the frontend or the ADCs?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 22, 2017, 01:20:53 am
At 1mv/div with the input unconnected there's about half a div worst-case noise, in peak-det mode at max waveform intensity, right up to 300MHz.

I'm curious - does it have an averaging acquisition mode?  If that noise is truly random then averaging should pretty much eliminate it.  Except on my Rigol DS2202A which produces a sinc waveform.:-DD  I'm curious what a real scope does here with averaging.

Also - any difference if the input is shorted instead of open?

Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 01:23:54 am
That seems pretty noisy. Does the noise get less at less sensitive input settings? Or put differently: does the noise come from the frontend or the ADCs?
The front-end - at lower sensitivities it's pretty much a flat line.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 22, 2017, 01:52:47 am
Attached is a test done on a HMO1202, using a 20Hz, ~500µV sine wave. It triggered perfectly and the Hi-Res mode cleaned it up so it can be seen. Mike - would you mind trying to see of the RTB can do this? Thank you!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 10:13:04 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcgJSKxj0i0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcgJSKxj0i0)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 10:33:50 am
Confirmed that there definitely won't be a launch bundle for UK.

Also confirmed that warranty support is worldwide so no issues for imported units
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 22, 2017, 11:34:37 am
That probe looks quite familliar

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170322/1046d4446c2947d0318e60e1607686a2.jpg)

Did i also see coarse/fine horizontal scale?

The eternal question: does it decode on memory or screen buffer?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: HighVoltage on March 22, 2017, 12:04:06 pm
Nice first impression video, Mike, Thanks

The web interface is probably the fastest I have seen.
Also interesting to see hexagonal air flow holes in the housing, someone was thinking at R&S.
Overall nice impression.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 22, 2017, 12:18:48 pm
When I see the response of the remote access, I have to wonder how quickly you could potentially stream "point" data to a remote processor.  I thought I saw a stream "function" in the remote control documentation, but have not been able to find it again.  (it might have been another scope, I will keep looking)

Even if it was Sub 50 Mp/s that would be a very powerful and unique capability in this class of scope.

PS  BTW I am just wondering ... would it not be better to keep all insects out of a lab setting?  Are they not the actual real life, root of the term "bug" in electronics? :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thanasisk on March 22, 2017, 12:30:33 pm
Thanks for the useful information and in-depth review!

Could you please give us some info on the FFT performance and whether you can do FFT peak search similar to the HMO1200?

The mirroring and remote control functionality  looks cool, but does it further support downloading the raw data of the channels over that web interface?

Is there also any limitation on what kind of raw data you can get through the usb-mtp connection? (can you get the whole (segmented?) memory or just what is displayed, fft waveform). This would be interesting for further analyzing the waveform in e.g. matlab.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on March 22, 2017, 12:46:32 pm
Confirmed that there definitely won't be a launch bundle for UK.

Also confirmed that warranty support is worldwide so no issues for imported units

thanks :) not surprised about R&S UK wont do launch bundle. They are not very competition or marketing focused in the UK. I have now had several quotes for R&S gear and they are not flexible anywhere. Must be great to be in that situation :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thanasisk on March 22, 2017, 01:04:37 pm
Has anyone been able to import a (launch offer) unit in Europe?  I tried several us and canada stores but they declined to sell abroad.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 22, 2017, 01:09:04 pm
Must be great to be in that situation :)

Basically had the same experience with R&S folks here. If you're not able to wave big bundles of money, they're yawning. Even items from their used store, forget it if you're trying to haggle.
They're of course very friendly people still - must be company policy or something.

I had a whole different experience when talking to Keysight's people.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: WattSekunde on March 22, 2017, 02:29:46 pm
In comparison to the older HMO line I am not sure if the tripple 10 makes such a big difference. I can't wait to see the upcoming videos from Watt Circuit, Mike and Dave. :popcorn:

The optional features are way too expensive in my opinion. Two examples from my configuration wishlist:

>> 2 Channel MSO <<

> HMO1212 (1195,-€) scope 2CH;100MHz;10kWfm/s
> simple waveform generator  SIN;SQR;PLS;SAW;TRI;DC;<50kHz
+ HO3508 (308,-€) logic probe 8CH;1GS
+ HOO10 (298,-€) serial decoding I2C;SPI;UART;RS232
= 1801,- Euro + VAT
--

> RTB2002 (1250,-€) scope 2CH;70MHz;50kWfm/s
+ RTB-B221 (275,-€) bandwidth upgrade 100MHz
+ RTB-K1 (480,-) serial decoding I2C;SPI
+ RTB-K2 (480,-) serial decoding UART;RS232
+ RTB-B1 (700,-) mixed signal option 16CH;1.25GS
+ RTB-B6 (700,-) arbitrary waveform generator <50MBit/s
= 3885,- Euro + VAT
--

>> 4 Channel MSO <<

> HMO1024(1965,-)
> no waveform generator
+ HO3508 (308,-€) logic probe 8CH;1GS
+ HOO10 (298,-€) serial decoding I2C;SPI;UART;RS232
= 2571,- Euro + VAT

--

> RTB2004 (1900,-€) scope 4CH;70MHz;50kWfm/s
+ RTB-B241 (225,-€) bandwidth upgrade 100MHz
+ RTB-K1 (480,-) serial decoding I2C;SPI
+ RTB-K2 (480,-) serial decoding UART;RS232
+ RTB-B1 (700,-) mixed signal option 16CH;1.25GS
= 3785,- Euro + VAT


Source: Price and options: http://shop.rohde-schwarz.com/de/r-srrtb2004bu.html (http://shop.rohde-schwarz.com/de/r-srrtb2004bu.html)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on March 22, 2017, 02:35:38 pm
Must be great to be in that situation :)

Basically had the same experience with R&S folks here. If you're not able to wave big bundles of money, they're yawning. Even items from their used store, forget it if you're trying to haggle.
They're of course very friendly people still - must be company policy or something.

I had a whole different experience when talking to Keysight's people.

I think it is a company policy - had same polite but dismissive and non-interested attitude when I dealt with their HQ when I was in the UAE.

Last time I asked for a quote on the ScopeRider in the UK - when I told the sales guy the quoted SRP was too much for my current budget - he never even bothered to reply to that email.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: termi on March 22, 2017, 02:52:03 pm
In comparison to the older HMO line I am not sure if the tripple 10 makes such a big difference. I can't wait to see the upcoming videos from Watt Circuit, Mike and Dave. :popcorn:

The optional features are way too expensive in my opinion. Two examples from my configuration wishlist:

>> 2 Channel MSO <<

> HMO1212 (1195,-€) scope 2CH;100MHz;10kWfm/s
> simple waveform generator  SIN;SQR;PLS;SAW;TRI;DC;<50kHz
+ HO3508 (308,-€) logic probe 8CH;1GS
+ HOO10 (298,-€) serial decoding I2C;SPI;UART;RS232
= 1801,- Euro + VAT
--

> RTB2002 (1250,-€) scope 2CH;70MHz;50kWfm/s
+ RTB-B221 (275,-€) bandwidth upgrade 100MHz
+ RTB-K1 (480,-) serial decoding I2C;SPI
+ RTB-K2 (480,-) serial decoding UART;RS232
+ RTB-B1 (700,-) mixed signal option 16CH;1.25GS
+ RTB-B6 (700,-) arbitrary waveform generator <50MBit/s
= 3885,- Euro + VAT
--

>> 4 Channel MSO <<

> HMO1024(1965,-)
> no waveform generator
+ HO3508 (308,-€) logic probe 8CH;1GS
+ HOO10 (298,-€) serial decoding I2C;SPI;UART;RS232
= 2571,- Euro + VAT

--

> RTB2004 (1900,-€) scope 4CH;70MHz;50kWfm/s
+ RTB-B241 (225,-€) bandwidth upgrade 100MHz
+ RTB-K1 (480,-) serial decoding I2C;SPI
+ RTB-K2 (480,-) serial decoding UART;RS232
+ RTB-B1 (700,-) mixed signal option 16CH;1.25GS
= 3785,- Euro + VAT


Source: Price and options: http://shop.rohde-schwarz.com/de/r-srrtb2004bu.html (http://shop.rohde-schwarz.com/de/r-srrtb2004bu.html)

In the US they sell the RTB-PK1.02 Application Bundle for $1260 which includes all serial options + segmented memory + wavegen. If this is also available in Europe, it would make some of your configurations significantly cheaper.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tequipment on March 22, 2017, 02:52:40 pm
Hello.  Just to post a note we have 3 scopes left at the promo deal for RS and then we will be killing off the Promo.

RS limited this deal to a limited number of units.

Thanks for all the business.

Best Regards,
Evan Cirelli
Vice President TEquipment.NET
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: apomerleau on March 22, 2017, 02:56:43 pm
The TestEquity web site shows a similar message:

"Delivery for all new orders is 30 days. Only 3 left for new orders as of 3/21 - Place your order before supplies run out completely!"

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: WattSekunde on March 22, 2017, 03:05:01 pm
In comparison to the older HMO line I am not sure if the tripple 10 makes such a big difference. I can't wait to see the upcoming videos from Watt Circuit, Mike and Dave. :popcorn:

The optional features are way too expensive in my opinion. Two examples from my configuration wishlist:

...

In the US they sell the RTB-PK1.02 Application Bundle for $1260 which includes all serial options + segmented memory + wavegen. If this is also available in Europe, it would make some of your configurations significantly cheaper.

I can't find any bundles available here in Europe. Maybe only for big customers. :rant:

And if I understand it right TestEquity, TEquipment.NET or other US suppliers do not want or can not sell this special offer back to Europe.  :(
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: termi on March 22, 2017, 03:12:26 pm
In comparison to the older HMO line I am not sure if the tripple 10 makes such a big difference. I can't wait to see the upcoming videos from Watt Circuit, Mike and Dave. :popcorn:

The optional features are way too expensive in my opinion. Two examples from my configuration wishlist:

...

In the US they sell the RTB-PK1.02 Application Bundle for $1260 which includes all serial options + segmented memory + wavegen. If this is also available in Europe, it would make some of your configurations significantly cheaper.

I can't find any bundles available here in Europe. Maybe only for big customers. :rant:

And if I understand it right TestEquity or other US suppliers do not want or can not sell this special offer to Europe.  :(

Looks like at least Farnell Germany might have the app bundle available soon?
http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-pk1/software-bundle-oszilloskope/dp/2723131?ost=RTB-PK1.02&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=Alle&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-pk1/software-bundle-oszilloskope/dp/2723131?ost=RTB-PK1.02&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=Alle&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: WattSekunde on March 22, 2017, 03:23:01 pm
In comparison to the older HMO line I am not sure if the tripple 10 makes such a big difference. I can't wait to see the upcoming videos from Watt Circuit, Mike and Dave. :popcorn:

The optional features are way too expensive in my opinion. Two examples from my configuration wishlist:

...

In the US they sell the RTB-PK1.02 Application Bundle for $1260 which includes all serial options + segmented memory + wavegen. If this is also available in Europe, it would make some of your configurations significantly cheaper.

I can't find any bundles available here in Europe. Maybe only for big customers. :rant:

And if I understand it right TestEquity or other US suppliers do not want or can not sell this special offer to Europe.  :(

Looks like at least Farnell Germany might have the app bundle available soon?
http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-pk1/software-bundle-oszilloskope/dp/2723131?ost=RTB-PK1.02&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=Alle&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-pk1/software-bundle-oszilloskope/dp/2723131?ost=RTB-PK1.02&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=Alle&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

Thank's! That looks good. But it's a software only bundle. Better than nothing.
Two days ago I asked R&S about the early adopter bundle for Europe and they are moving the question to some sales office...

The complete bundle (RTB2004 OSCILLOSCOPE 4 CHANNEL, 300MHz PROMOTIONAL PACKAGE) is for 5500,- Euro + VAT. Compare that to $ 2080+VAT in the US?  >:(

http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Alex P on March 22, 2017, 06:01:17 pm
Must be great to be in that situation :)

Basically had the same experience with R&S folks here. If you're not able to wave big bundles of money, they're yawning. Even items from their used store, forget it if you're trying to haggle.
They're of course very friendly people still - must be company policy or something.

I had a whole different experience when talking to Keysight's people.

I think it is a company policy - had same polite but dismissive and non-interested attitude when I dealt with their HQ when I was in the UAE.

Last time I asked for a quote on the ScopeRider in the UK - when I told the sales guy the quoted SRP was too much for my current budget - he never even bothered to reply to that email.

My experience is quite different and much better. I recently bought an RTM2000 from Rohde & Schwarz Benelux (that's in Europe, the Netherlands). Got a nice discount. Their website explicitly mentions they sell to private persons in NL. After the christmas holiday period, emails were answered reasonably fast; the first offer even included an HMO2024 at a discount (so, yes, they were willing to take the trouble to sell me a single humble 'scope). They also offered ex-demo and non-current stuff at (rather higher) discounts (the website is not kept current for this though, so ask!). I tried the RTM2000 at their office for several hours (I declined their offer to ship me one to try it out).  Satisfied customer :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 22, 2017, 07:33:16 pm
The TestEquity web site shows a similar message:

"Delivery for all new orders is 30 days. Only 3 left for new orders as of 3/21 - Place your order before supplies run out completely!"

Yeah I think I can see what is going on here now.  There must be just the one "pool" of (additional?) available promo units at the wholesaler, or R&S directly, that both US distributors (Tequipment, Test Equity) are selling from.  I'll take a guess that nothing has been, or will be, actually ordered from R&S until those 3 units left in the "pool" are sold.  Then a batch order processed (built?) by R&S.  That explains the sliding delivery date estimates, both distributors likely didn't know for sure when the clock would start on delivery lead time until the whole batch of available promo units were sold.

I'm curious if any promo bundles *at all* were actually available & ready for immediate shipment in the US when this started! If so those lucky few folks should be getting their units this week or next, I would think.  If anyone receives one, please post!  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 22, 2017, 07:39:33 pm
Thanks for the overview Mike.

It is too bad they went with such a cheap LCD, for a few dollars more they could have gotten one with an oleophobic coating. The fingerprints will be so nasty, hard to believe it really is glass.

Still at the intro special pricing for US/Canada it is a great deal.

The remote web interface puts Keysight's to shame. The MSO cable without a proper handle to pull on to remove them is rather lame.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Skagit on March 22, 2017, 07:41:09 pm
I ordered mine on march 15 and have an expected ship date of march 31.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 22, 2017, 07:45:50 pm
That does sound like one that was ready to ship!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on March 22, 2017, 07:47:16 pm
Thanks for the teardown Mike. One thing I noticed is: No flash memory? Must be in the FPGA then?
I don't really like the looks, both front and rear (but who cares about the rear). The LCD is shiny and covered with finger prints, the panel just looks cheap to me.
Sure, it's not the most important feature of a scope but compared to a Keysight MSOX/DSOX it's the ugly duck.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zebble on March 22, 2017, 08:03:47 pm
Looks like promo's are sold out!  Just tried to purchase from TestForce (Canada).  Got a quote on Monday, placed the order Tuesday, was told today that they've told by R&S there are no more promo's to sell.

Less than 2 weeks and that's it!?  Come on R&S.  I've never purchased R&S before, nor will I now.  Pretty shady.

Anybody else getting knocked down when they try to order?

FYI:  This in no way reflects on my positive opinion about TestForce.  Ty was very helpful, responsive and apologetic when he learned of this treason on R&S's part.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 08:04:32 pm
Thanks for the teardown Mike. One thing I noticed is: No flash memory? Must be in the FPGA then?
No, it will be one of the BGAs. I didn't look up all the numbers
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 08:07:08 pm
Looks like promo's are sold out!  Just tried to purchase from TestForce (Canada).  Got a quote on Monday, placed the order Tuesday, was told today that they've told by R&S there are no more promo's to sell.

Less than 2 weeks and that's it!?  Come on R&S.  I've never purchased R&S before, nor will I now.  Pretty shady.

Anybody else getting knocked down when they try to order?

FYI:  This in no way reflects on my positive opinion about TestForce.  Ty was very helpful, responsive and apologetic when he learned of this treason on R&S's part.
Aiui it was a global (!) Allocation of 200. I'm not aware of any other units out there apart from the 3 or so seen on Youtube.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Myrv on March 22, 2017, 08:23:09 pm
Looks like promo's are sold out!  Just tried to purchase from TestForce (Canada).  Got a quote on Monday, placed the order Tuesday, was told today that they've told by R&S there are no more promo's to sell.

Anybody else getting knocked down when they try to order?

I also got a quote from Testforce on Monday but I placed the order that afternoon.  They sent me a confirmation number and invoice Tuesday morning so as far as I know I've gotten in (here's hoping I don't get a surprise email tomorrow).  The quote said delivery in 6 weeks, the actual invoice doesn't give a date at all.

First time dealing with Testforce and they seemed quite responsive and helpful.  Even sent a follow-up email after the first quote that available launch packages were disappearing fast and I should decide soon.

Way more scope than I need but I was in the market (was seriously considering the SDS2204x) and  the R&S launch deal looked way too good to ignore.  Here's hoping it's not a version 1.0 dud.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thm_w on March 22, 2017, 08:25:37 pm
Looks like promo's are sold out!  Just tried to purchase from TestForce (Canada).  Got a quote on Monday, placed the order Tuesday, was told today that they've told by R&S there are no more promo's to sell.
Less than 2 weeks and that's it!?  Come on R&S.  I've never purchased R&S before, nor will I now.  Pretty shady.
Anybody else getting knocked down when they try to order?
FYI:  This in no way reflects on my positive opinion about TestForce.  Ty was very helpful, responsive and apologetic when he learned of this treason on R&S's part.

Its not shady at all, you tried to get the promo and missed out.
Partially due to TestForce, as they don't seem to have the resources for an online ordering system or ability to display prices on the site (typical of Canadian test equipment suppliers).
Thanks for updating us though.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 22, 2017, 08:33:01 pm
Watching your vid Mike, one comment/question.
Is the trace color scheme user configurable ?

I ask as it seems not the usual trace color scheme of: Yellow, Red/Cyan, Blue and Green for ch 4.  :-//

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 22, 2017, 08:40:26 pm
Mike,

Does the kit include some PC software for arbitrary generator signal preparation ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 08:53:00 pm
Mike,

Does the kit include some PC software for arbitrary generator signal preparation ?
Not looked at gen at all yet -if there is anything it will be on website.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 22, 2017, 09:51:41 pm
Not looked at gen at all yet -if there is anything it will be on website.
Great. Thank you for your work. If you be so kind and check in a spare time what is exact XY screen size
it will be possible to order some tablet oleophobic screen protector during over month waiting period :-)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 22, 2017, 10:24:13 pm
I just looked at the teardown and it is build like the Hamegs: cheap. The PCB isn't well supported (to make things worse also parallel with the base) and the BNCs aren't bolted to the chassis.  :palm: For a scope which is moved around (maybe dropped) these are very weak points.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 10:49:32 pm
Watching your vid Mike, one comment/question.
Is the trace color scheme user configurable ?

No, apart from the rainbow modes. They are different to the more standard colour set, maybe to better match what the RGB LEDs can render. Something that struck me just as I was going out tonight is that I'm not sure how good a fit the probe colour sleeves are to the screen colours - will check tomorrow.

Quote
I ask as it seems not the usual trace color scheme

Define "usual"... I'm used to yellow,green,blue,pink. for 1-4. Blue (at least the shade on Agilent/Keysight) sucks as it's a bit too dim.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 10:55:07 pm
I just looked at the teardown and it is build like the Hamegs: cheap. The PCB isn't well supported (to make things worse also parallel with the base) and the BNCs aren't bolted to the chassis.  :palm: For a scope which is moved around (maybe dropped) these are very weak points.
I really don't see an issue - there is a lot of solder, and the PCB appears to be edge plated, so the solder contacts on 3 sides of the PCB, and the PCB is screwed to the chassis close to every connector.
I think you'd have to try pretty hard to break them.
The PCB itself has plenty of screws into the aluminium chassis plate.

If you consider drop-proofness an important parameter in a $2-6K scope, maybe you're looking at the wrong type of scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on March 22, 2017, 10:57:45 pm
I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube. I have enormous respect for R&S and Hameg (have some equipment from them) but would never buy something completely blindly based on few 60 second video clips and incomplete spec sheet.  And again not a question of doubting that Hameg (R&S) are able to make great stuff, it's just that scope (and any other complicated piece of equipment) is so much about personal preferences, how some functions are implemented and such.. That is why you have people that swear by certain brands...
And here people are sing praises to a scope nobody owns yet, and will receive in 45 days when they become available...

Nothing wrong with all of that just an observation...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 22, 2017, 10:59:08 pm
My DSOX2002A is built like a tank, but it is not drop resistant.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 22, 2017, 11:08:23 pm
Watching your vid Mike, one comment/question.
Is the trace color scheme user configurable ?

No, apart from the rainbow modes. They are different to the more standard colour set, maybe to better match what the RGB LEDs can render. Something that struck me just as I was going out tonight is that I'm not sure how good a fit the probe colour sleeves are to the screen colours - will check tomorrow.

Quote
I ask as it seems not the usual trace color scheme

Define "usual"... I'm used to yellow,green,blue,pink. for 1-4. Blue (at least the shade on Agilent/Keysight) sucks as it's a bit too dim.
Usual for me is Y, P, B, G .....yet an old 2 ch Tek DSO I have is Y, B.  :-//
It's not so confusing with only 2 colors to keep track of, 4 well that could be a different matter.

What is standard or usual if you like ? Is there some commonly accepted color scheme for channel layout ?
IMO this could be a trap for the unsuspecting and something that would take some getting used to if changing scope brands.
 :-\
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 22, 2017, 11:15:40 pm
I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube. I have enormous respect for R&S and Hameg (have some equipment from them) but would never buy something completely blindly based on few 60 second video clips and incomplete spec sheet.  And again not a question of doubting that Hameg (R&S) are able to make great stuff, it's just that scope (and any other complicated piece of equipment) is so much about personal preferences, how some functions are implemented and such.. That is why you have people that swear by certain brands...
And here people are sing praises to a scope nobody owns yet, and will receive in 45 days when they become available...

Nothing wrong with all of that just an observation...
If it was a Chinese company, or someone unknown ( or maybe Tektronix  ;) ) , I'd totally agree that it would be a gamble . However with the bigger players you have brand reputation that give a decent level of confidence that it will be a good product. You know you're getting a 4ch 300MHz MSO with arbgen and decodes, 3 year warranty and a worldwide support network - is there even any option from anyone that gives you that (without hacking) for $2K?
Remember why they are doing the promo - to get kit out there for visibility and word of mouth, not to clear out crappy old stock that didn't sell
They wouldn't do that if they didn't think it would stand up.
Whether it's worth the normal list price is another question of course.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 22, 2017, 11:17:37 pm
I just looked at the teardown and it is build like the Hamegs: cheap. The PCB isn't well supported (to make things worse also parallel with the base) and the BNCs aren't bolted to the chassis.  :palm: For a scope which is moved around (maybe dropped) these are very weak points.
I really don't see an issue - there is a lot of solder, and the PCB appears to be edge plated, so the solder contacts on 3 sides of the PCB, and the PCB is screwed to the chassis close to every connector.
I think you'd have to try pretty hard to break them.
I've seen various pieces of equipment which have had an accident. Equipment with the BNCs bolted to the chassis only have damage to the BNCs. However when the BNCs are held by solder they just shear off the board and I really don't want to think what happens to a BGA on that board.

Also just connecting/disconnecting cables will be a long term problem. Tin isn't a metal which can deal with mechanical load and will fatique over time (think about brittle solder joints on TO220 packages in old TVs/monitors). There are some examples of Tektronix TDS200 series scopes which show the BNCs-soldered-to-board problems after much use.

Board flexing can be a problem even when a piece of equipment is generally handled with care. Laptop hard drives are rated to deal with several hundred Gs because of this. This is why it is better to mount a PCB in a way it is much less likely to flex when a piece of equipment is set down.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 22, 2017, 11:33:20 pm
You know you're getting a 4ch 300MHz MSO with arbgen and decodes, 3 year warranty and a worldwide support network - is there even any option from anyone that gives you that (without hacking) for $2K?
If you can live with 200MHz there is an alternative for the same price and available worldwide. Some pros and cons ofcourse but all in all pretty much in the same ballpark.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 22, 2017, 11:40:02 pm
I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube. I have enormous respect for R&S and Hameg (have some equipment from them) but would never buy something completely blindly based on few 60 second video clips and incomplete spec sheet.  And again not a question of doubting that Hameg (R&S) are able to make great stuff, it's just that scope (and any other complicated piece of equipment) is so much about personal preferences, how some functions are implemented and such.. That is why you have people that swear by certain brands...
And here people are sing praises to a scope nobody owns yet, and will receive in 45 days when they become available...

Nothing wrong with all of that just an observation...

Here is my point of view. R&S is not an unknown and they have nothing to gain by releasing a few cheap scopes. That's my number 1 assurance that "blindly" putting down ~2300$ will turn out alright. The next would be the fact that for the money I can not get that much scope. If it does half of what it says I can't get that much scope for the money. The final thing which is really the thing that makes it easy to do... I can cancel my order, I can return it if I don't like it. If everyone who touches one says "Nope!", I can cancel at anytime and not think about it again. I can play with it for a couple days too, and if I don't like it then it goes right back. It's essentially no risk. The upside though... I can get a very nice little scope for a small amount of money. The closest, cheapest keysight scope would be the MSOX2024A, with a list price of 3500$. You add in the options and it's instantly a no brainer.

Let's assume the scope doesn't live up to its' specs but does work well... What are my equivalent options in this price range?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: lem_ix on March 22, 2017, 11:40:56 pm
Thanks for the teardown Mike, would be great to hear about it after a few weeks of use. Seems nicely designed, wonder if it's compatible with Hameg logic probes? Guess we're only missing a drop test now, hopefully Dave can put it to the standard test soon :D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on March 22, 2017, 11:56:48 pm
I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube. I have enormous respect for R&S and Hameg (have some equipment from them) but would never buy something completely blindly based on few 60 second video clips and incomplete spec sheet.  And again not a question of doubting that Hameg (R&S) are able to make great stuff, it's just that scope (and any other complicated piece of equipment) is so much about personal preferences, how some functions are implemented and such.. That is why you have people that swear by certain brands...
And here people are sing praises to a scope nobody owns yet, and will receive in 45 days when they become available...

Nothing wrong with all of that just an observation...
If it was a Chinese company, or someone unknown ( or maybe Tektronix  ;) ) , I'd totally agree that it would be a gamble . However with the bigger players you have brand reputation that give a decent level of confidence that it will be a good product. You know you're getting a 4ch 300MHz MSO with arbgen and decodes, 3 year warranty and a worldwide support network - is there even any option from anyone that gives you that (without hacking) for $2K?
Remember why they are doing the promo - to get kit out there for visibility and word of mouth, not to clear out crappy old stock that didn't sell
They wouldn't do that if they didn't think it would stand up.
Whether it's worth the normal list price is another question of course.

Mike, thanks for explaining.
That line of reasoning is absolutely logical.. From that standpoint, absolutely logical to buy, I understand now..  Think of it as Rigol MSO4034 with bigger screen and done well by reputable brand. Definitely worth that money.

As for full price, I'm prepared to pay more than Rigol with similar (on the paper) specs.. But not 3x, more like 30-50% more.. And they would sell like hot cakes.

For the kind of money they are asking now as retail, I will buy something else and live with it's imperfections...

Regards,
Sinisa
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kkessler on March 23, 2017, 12:00:34 am
I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube.

I bought one, and know it is a gamble, but a fully loaded scope for $2K with these specs is a fairly high reward, low risk gamble; the scope package will really have to suck not to be worth the price.  My main interest is in embedded stuff, so the MSO and protocol decodes are pretty high on my list, and it would be difficult for me to get those things for that price in any other package.  Just price out what that would be on a Keysight 2000X.  Then add a 10" screen, which, as my age advances, could be really useful.

As to personal preferences, this is a piece of test equipment, not a lifetime commitment.  My preference is that is it able to meet my requirements to tell me what is going on inside the device I'm trying to debug.  If I don't like the single vertical input, oh well, I'll get used to it.  If I don't like the fact that I can't drop it from 2 meters, I won't do that.  If I start have a new set of requirements that include dropping the scope regularly, I'll shop for a new scope that meets that requirement.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Paul Moir on March 23, 2017, 12:16:04 am
I bought one, and know it is a gamble, ...
I don't even think it's much of a gamble.  Even if you hated it, I bet you could turn around and sell it for more than you paid.  Especially if you offered shipping to Europe.  :)
I'm glad the promo is over.  I was so strongly tempted to order one, but I really have no practical use for this 'scope.  Congrats to the 200 who did get one! 
Title: The soft case and front cover
Post by: agdr on March 23, 2017, 12:18:09 am
I bought the soft case for it, RTB-Z3, just from the part number listings without being able to find a photo anywhere.  Just did some more Googling and finally found a picture:

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm)

Looks a little more "floppy" than the Rigol case for my 2000 series.  Velco closure too instead of snaps of some kind.  Should do the job though for normal amounts of transport.

R&S also lists a front cover, RTB-Z1.  Didn't get that one, but here is a picture from the same distributor's site:

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z1-Oszilloskop-Frontabdeckung.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z1-Oszilloskop-Frontabdeckung.htm)
Title: Re: The soft case and front cover
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2017, 12:31:07 am
I bought the soft case for it, RTB-Z3, just from the part number listings without being able to find a photo anywhere.  Just did some more Googling and finally found a picture:

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm)

Looks a little more "floppy" than the Rigol case for my 2000 series.  Velco closure too instead of snaps of some kind.  Should do the job though for normal amounts of transport.

R&S also lists a front cover, RTB-Z1.  Didn't get that one, but here is a picture from the same distributor's site:

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z1-Oszilloskop-Frontabdeckung.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z1-Oszilloskop-Frontabdeckung.htm)
E75 seems a lot for a plastic cover - pretty sure Keysight include a hard front cover - My 3000 came with one - not sure if the 2000 does.
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: stuartk on March 23, 2017, 12:34:35 am
I was able to snag one from TestForce in Canada on Monday morning. (Sorry Zebble! :D). I think at 11:00 AM I was number 3 of 10 scopes that they had allocated for Canada. They must of gone really quick.

I feel rather foolish purchasing before it has been thoroughly reviewed, however that's the risk inherent in this. What motivated me in the end was my need for a usable MSO and 4 channels.

I would place this scope in terms of specs somewhere between the:
Keysight MSOX2024A 200 MHz, 4 Analog Plus 8 Digital CA$ 4,606 with no options and the
Keysight MSOX3034T 350 MHz, 4 Analog Plus 16 Digital for a whopping CA$ 13,048 also with no options

It's possible that once it's available R&S may run promotions to boost sales. The competition has never been higher in the scope market. Hopefully it will drive competitors prices down from the stratosphere.....

BTW Mike thanks for the super quick review. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: The soft case and front cover
Post by: agdr on March 23, 2017, 01:00:17 am
E75 seems a lot for a plastic cover - pretty sure Keysight include a hard front cover - My 3000 came with one - not sure if the 2000 does.

I'm kind of wondering what the point in a front cover would even be with this scope.  My first thought was keeping dust out in some sort of dusty shop environment, but that won't help with the open back.  From your video it seems to me that fingerprints from actual use are going to be the screen's biggest enemy.  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2017, 01:06:17 am
Hard cover is handy when you want to pack the scope in a bag with other stuff. dedicated scope bag is less useful as chances are you have other stuff as well, so scope bag adds unnecessary bulk.
However those big holes in the R&S rear make it a bit riskier to chuck into a bag of tools.
Title: Re: The soft case and front cover
Post by: gslick on March 23, 2017, 01:49:04 am
I bought the soft case for it, RTB-Z3, just from the part number listings without being able to find a photo anywhere.  Just did some more Googling and finally found a picture:

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-RTB-Z3-Option-Spektrumanalysator-RS.htm)

Looks a little more "floppy" than the Rigol case for my 2000 series.  Velco closure too instead of snaps of some kind.  Should do the job though for normal amounts of transport.

The beginning of this video starts with the RTB2004 being removed from the soft case. Just a quick shot, not a real good look at it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YxFoahKxQ0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YxFoahKxQ0)

In the US $90 for the RTB-Z1 plastic front cover plus another $210 for the RTB-Z3 soft carrying bag seems a bit expensive compared to $150 for the Keysight N6457A Soft Carrying Case and Front Panel Cover for the InfiniiVision 2000 / 3000 X-Series, or $115 for the Keysight N2738A Soft Carrying Case for the InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 23, 2017, 02:02:18 am
Just buy a cheaparse camcorder bag from ebay, e.g. eBay auction: #301939847237
Title: Re: The soft case and front cover
Post by: JonM on March 23, 2017, 02:22:01 am

E75 seems a lot for a plastic cover - pretty sure Keysight include a hard front cover - My 3000 came with one - not sure if the 2000 does.

The Keysight front covers are optional. The cover for my 3024T cost US$46.04 (with small discount). I had one on my Agilent scope and strongly recommend getting one to protect the screen and knobs. Sometimes I even put it on when the scope is sitting on my desk.

Recently there was a smashed screen Keysight scope on eBay (for parts) and my first thought was that they should have bought the cover, my second thought was if it had option licenses that I could move to my scope...
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 23, 2017, 02:28:10 am
Legit licenses are connected to the scope's model and serial number, there is no way to legally transfer them.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 23, 2017, 02:54:23 am
I too was fortunate.  I acquired a RTB2004 from Testforce (Canada) and was delighted with the experience.  Expected delivery 6 weeks. 

My view on the marketing strategy, and my buying decision.

This special offering approximately 70% off the retail price was designed to incent early adoption of the RTB2004 by folks like us.  Retail prices are determined by market forces.  I confirmed this is in an informal manner by searching for "Equivalent" scopes by the other Tier 1 suppliers.  The "fully loaded" retail price ~$6500 (US) of these scopes is consistent for this capability & feature set.  Companies may differ in the feature mix and there are some trade-offs within each brand but generally they are comparable.

All new scopes need marketing support upon market entry.  Keysight choose to have a "scope month" and give away scopes and generate buzz that way.  R&S sold ~200 scopes with a discount of ~70% to create their buzz. 

Based on the marketing information, online manuals, datasheet and interaction with a company rep here on the forum.  I believe this scope meets my most demanding needs.  It just makes sense to acquire if the price is right for me. 

I look at it this way.  I bought a $2080 (us) lottery ticket, with a 100% chance to win a desirable prize worth $6500 (retail).  In the short run, the prize has an expected future value of more than I paid ($2080+ all other costs (tax, shipping, sales expense), classic zero downside decision.

As a pure business decision, it is a no brainer.  Take the deal!    Even more so if you have little negotiating power with the vendors.  For me, the retail price is a rigid wall that does not move (much) unless the manufacturer offers an incentive.  I know that corporate and institutional buyers simply use "list price" as a starting point and perhaps enjoy the dialogue with their dedicated sales rep on the golf course, alas I miss those days. :'(

In terms of Tier 2 Suppliers they typically are 20%-30% cheaper as an offset for lower levels of offered support; documentation, access to engineering support, training materials, etc.  Even though you get the capability & feature set from tier 2, you are much more on your own.  In some regions this can be offset by a dedicated and ethical distributor, this was not my experience.  Having personally suffered a few times with well meaning yet unsupported technical staff, I am done buying from tier 2. 

PS 
As for the notion that this introduction price sets a new "retail price" going forward.  It does not, just look to the European pricing.
or do we believe Keysight must continue giving away scopes at the rate of 5 per day indefinitely? :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on March 23, 2017, 03:25:07 am

As for the notion that this introduction price sets a new "retail price" going forward.  It does not...

I don't know. It may be their intent to go back to the original MSRP but I'm not sure that will hold for long.  They have set an expected price for this scope now and rational or not, price sensitive consumers are not going to be willing to now spend 3x as much for the same scope anytime soon. At least those in the "prosumer"/hobbiest/professional home use category who are aware of this scopes introduction and this introductory price.   It may be a nice scope but from what I've read so far I see no reason to believe the full featured version will be able to out-compete  other $5-6K scopes.

I believe there's a concept in economics that says once a lower price is established - it's difficult to significantly raise prices again.  Sure, they will be able to sell scopes at the original MSRP - but how many?  How much market penetration will they see? Especially with other scope makers ramping up their offerings.

This is kind of the opposite of UPOD (under promise, over deliver). There's gonna be a lot of people out there very unenthusiastic about paying 3x more for this scope with those included features or buying a bare bones scope for the same price as what a full featured one was temporarily available for.

We'll have to see how this plays out. I think it might be a year or two before we know the answer as to what price the market will bear for this scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 23, 2017, 03:36:54 am
Well, it was the same with Keysight when the 2k and 3k X-series launched. There were promotions that came and went. Free fgen, free DMM, then 30% off, then free MSO option etc. There will always be a time when a promotion ends and you just missed the train.

I don't think you have much leverage trying to bully your way to a lower price after the promotion ends ("but you had it 30% cheaper last month...!"), just wait for the next promotional sale. The R&S one is ofc different due to the limited number style sales vs. Keysight's limited time offers but also R&S have those promotions fairly often.
Title: Re: The soft case and front cover
Post by: agdr on March 23, 2017, 03:39:05 am
The beginning of this video starts with the RTB2004 being removed from the soft case. Just a quick shot, not a real good look at it.

Interesting!  I completely missed that.  The one and only time I tried viewing that video I was using the cell phone.  The cell's video playback was working so badly it started a ways into the video, then I just gave up after a few minutes.  Never did circle back on a PC.  So sure enough, velcro.  Given I choice I would prefer snaps, like the Rigol bag has, but it will do.  The Rigol bag is great!  It is one thing Rigol got right.  Kind of a stiff molded material on the outside with softer insides.  Provides some pretty good "bumping" protection.  This R&S bag probably won't.

Yeah there must be about $20 USD of materials in that R&S bag, tops. But hey the stitched R&S name has to be worth at least $100, right?  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on March 23, 2017, 03:40:54 am
I don't want for anybody to take this wrong, but I'm fascinated by amount of people who are prepared to cache out 2000+ USD for something that they only saw on a Hollywood trailer on Youtube.

I guess like many other voices, I do not think its much a gamble.

I currently don't have a scope, its been awhile since I've had one (various reasons) and I was in the market already for a new scope. Ideally I budgeted $1500. When I saw Mike make mention of it on twitter, and then looked into it, I found that for just a little bit more than my ideal budget I could get, in my estimation, about twice as much as my budget allowed and basically a "retail" of nearly 4 times my budget (granted I think some retail prices are a bit in crazy land, and we all know that more various sales will occur, and prices will come down at some point... market is the market). It has far more display real estate than many of the scopes I've looked at. But yes, virtually sight unseen. Now if this had been a Rigol or equivalent, I don't think I'd squeeze the trigger (not that I probably wont buy some Rigol stuff down the line). But I was already familiar with a few of R&S's other products, and their level of service.   And considering I still can cancel, and I probably can sell it for at least what I paid if I really don't like it, if not more... its hard to see the downside.

Does it have flaws?  Yeah. Lack of 50-ohm (especially with such sensitivity) seems weird to me. As does detent on fine adjusts. I'm sure there will be other things, but even the scopes I looked at, there are features I want that I can't get, so its all trade offs.

Only thing that bothers me is the release. It seems obvious that R&S had some sort of issue close to release. They didn't get scopes in the hands of a few reviewers on-time, and it seems that they didn't have any production units actually ready to go (i've still seen/heard no actual production scopes in anyone's hands... btw Mike, is yours beta firmware too like the many other screen shots I've seen?), even though their marketing materials said they did.  I do understand, though, they "had" to get to market this month, because of all the other competition.  And as much as I "want it right now", if they did find an issue that they can fix and make it better before its in my hands, awesome (as long as we're not talking months from now). 

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 23, 2017, 03:49:16 am

As for the notion that this introduction price sets a new "retail price" going forward.  It does not...

I don't know. It may be their intent to go back to the original MSRP but I'm not sure that will hold for long.  They have set an expected price for this scope now and rational or not, price sensitive consumers are not going to be willing to now spend 3x as much for the same scope anytime soon. At least those in the "prosumer"/hobbiest/professional home use category who are aware of this scopes introduction and this introductory price.   It may be a nice scope but from what I've read so far I see no reason to believe the full featured version will be able to out-compete  other $5-6K scopes.

I believe there's a concept in economics that says once a lower price is established - it's difficult to significantly raise prices again.  Sure, they will be able to sell scopes at the original MSRP - but how many?  How much market penetration will they see? Especially with other scope makers ramping up their offerings.

This is kind of the opposite of UPOD (under promise, over deliver). There's gonna be a lot of people out there very unenthusiastic about paying 3x more for this scope with those included features or buying a bare bones scope for the same price as what a full featured one was temporarily available for.

We'll have to see how this plays out. I think it might be a year or two before we know the answer as to what price the market will bear for this scope.

I'm pretty sure it's as competitive as any R&S scope is now on price so it seems far fetched to think it would drastically change because of a limited launch promotion. It's also important to remember how much it has on top of alot of other comparable scopes. People keep comparing to keysight 3000x scopes but that's not what they're targeting, which is 2000 series scopes. Unless you think everybody is going to adjust their pricing because of another manufacturers 200 unit promotion, I don't see the reason for the baseless speculation that they'll never be able to sell them now.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on March 23, 2017, 04:15:36 am
Quote from: maginnovision link=topic=84856.msg1168080#msg1168080
Unless you think everybody is going to adjust their pricing because of another manufacturers 200 unit promotion, I don't see the reason for the baseless speculation that they'll never be able to sell them now.

I never said that "they'll never be able to sell them now".  Of course they'll sell some - as I said - the question is how many and at what price?

I certainly don't expect they will change their MSRP to the promotional price or that other scope makers will drop equivalent scope's MSRP to that price.

What I do think will likely happen is that if they want to elevate their market position with this scope, they'll likely need to either drastically cut the price of the basic upgrade options or regularly offer promotions which get a lot closer the level of this original promotion.

Really - as others pointed out early in this thread - before the promotion was anounced -charging $540 for basic serial triggering and decoding  in this class of scope is just not gonna fly if they want to be a market leader.  And $1860 extra to get to 300 MHz? 

I just think that kind of pricing that was perhaps previously working for Keysight, etc will not still be working in 1-2 years.  Admittedly this is all speculation - but I feel like we're seeing a turning point in the low -mid level ($1k-4K) scope market and this is just the beginning. Their promotional pricing was a preview of what's coming. :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on March 23, 2017, 04:19:24 am
Does anyone know if you can use this scope with a USB mouse ? Might save the screen from getting grubby and I am much more productive with a mouse than a touch screen.

cheers
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: gslick on March 23, 2017, 04:34:26 am
Does anyone know if you can use this scope with a USB mouse ? Might save the screen from getting grubby and I am much more productive with a mouse than a touch screen.

Around a minute into this video he plugs in a USB mouse and uses it to drag the waveform around on the screen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlsPaAF6Zuk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlsPaAF6Zuk)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bitwelder on March 23, 2017, 05:58:29 am
Regarding the glossy touchscreen, I guess it should be possible to add one of those 'protective screen' for tablets, that have matte finish and leave less fingerprint traces.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on March 23, 2017, 06:11:52 am
Regarding the glossy touchscreen, I guess it should be possible to add one of those 'protective screen' for tablets, that have matte finish and leave less fingerprint traces.
Considering how roughly handled most lab equipment can be, the impact protective qualities of a glass screen protector might be very useful.  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on March 23, 2017, 06:20:10 am
Does anyone know who makes the BNC connectors in these R&S scope? Surface mount connectors, accessible to the user, are usually a mechanical disaster, but this slotting arrangement looks like it might actually be robust.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: piranha32 on March 23, 2017, 07:07:11 am
Does anyone know who makes the BNC connectors in these R&S scope? Surface mount connectors, accessible to the user, are usually a mechanical disaster, but this slotting arrangement looks like it might actually be robust.
Not exactly like those in the scope, but also very robust, if not better (hold the board on both sides): http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/amphenol-rf-division/034-5013/ARF2104-ND/3995564 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/amphenol-rf-division/034-5013/ARF2104-ND/3995564)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2017, 11:18:58 am

Only thing that bothers me is the release. It seems obvious that R&S had some sort of issue close to release. They didn't get scopes in the hands of a few reviewers on-time, and it seems that they didn't have any production units actually ready to go (i've still seen/heard no actual production scopes in anyone's hands... btw Mike, is yours beta firmware too like the many other screen shots I've seen?), even though their marketing materials said they did.  I do understand, though, they "had" to get to market this month, because of all the other competition.  And as much as I "want it right now", if they did find an issue that they can fix and make it better before its in my hands, awesome (as long as we're not talking months from now).

Reading between the lines of my communications with them, there was at least a significant logistics screwup in terms of where the first units went, and that units went to dealers before reviewers, though these may have just been demo units rather than for sale.  It may also be that units were diverted to potential big customers.

The unit I have looks in every respect like a full production unit. I have found a few minor bugs in the firmware but nothing that's a problem or would be difficult fixes.

I think we will see promotions on options, as everyone else is doing it. It may also be the case that dealers can throw in options to clinch a sale.
My R&S UK rep said they do promotions every 6 months.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: trevwhite on March 23, 2017, 11:26:33 am
Seems Farnell UK are now offering a "deal". They offered me the promo bundle for £3175+VAT. Not quite the same bargain the US got. I wont be buying it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 23, 2017, 11:28:30 am
In deed. in these days of the global market.. the old techniques just dont' cut it any longer. I'm NOT goign to pay a 50% premium just becuase i am in New Zealand. End of story.

And if you set the price with a promostion you better be ready to sell it again at that price, cause you've just set the expectation. and you know whwat.. I have plenty of choices now of what i'll buy..  theres plenty of good scopes that will do the job for me.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2017, 11:40:41 am
Seems Farnell UK are now offering a "deal". They offered me the promo bundle for £3175+VAT. Not quite the same bargain the US got. I wont be buying it.
Friend of mine just received the same offer. Nowhere near the US deal, but as the latter appears to have finished, still not a bad deal.
I'm told they have about 12 units available.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 23, 2017, 12:11:33 pm
Hi Mike  Thank you for all the work you are doing with the RTB2004, for me it is revealing and seems for the most part to support the marketing claims of R&S.

Have you looked at the triggers yet?  There was some debate on the forum regarding this capability and in particular the runt trigger.  In the data sheet it states that we can search for a runt but no mention of triggering on one. 

Just curious, it would be disappointing if there is no runt trigger.

Title: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Asymmetric13 on March 23, 2017, 12:13:56 pm
You know you're getting a 4ch 300MHz MSO with arbgen and decodes, 3 year warranty and a worldwide support network - is there even any option from anyone that gives you that (without hacking) for $2K?
If you can live with 200MHz there is an alternative for the same price and available worldwide. Some pros and cons ofcourse but all in all pretty much in the same ballpark.
Are you referring to the GW Instek MSO 2204 EA ?

I think it would be (very?) interesting to conduct a comparison between the two models - clearly there are headline differences (300MHz / 200 MHz, 10" Screen / 8" Screen, 10 Bit ADC / 8 Bit ADC) beyond those items if the specifications and performance are considerably closer (equivalent?), the remaining variable is price and the "standard" cost for the GW Instek ("fully loaded specification and options") is equivalent to the "promotional" (and now sold out) pricing for this R&S ("fully loaded specification and options").

My assumption is that most of the interest generated here was not due to the device being a new model from R&S, but rather being a great specification (without hacking) for the price. This is the rationale for why I think such a comparison may be of interest - particularly to all those who are not able to consider the full purchase price of the (non-discounted) R&S.

I wonder how we might go about getting GW Instek to provide a review scope to Dave, Mike and any others in a position to conduct the necessary blow-by-blow to answer the above comparison queries.

@nctnico - has your communication with GW Instek regarding firmware updates in the past left you with a contact path that may be able to facilitate this?

EEV Forum Thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-announces-new-mso-2000/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-announces-new-mso-2000/)

T Equipment Product Page:

http://www.tequipment.net/Instek/MSO-2202EA/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?search=true (http://www.tequipment.net/Instek/MSO-2202EA/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?search=true)

Details of (additional - i.e. not required to be price equivalent as described above) Educational Discount:

http://www.gwinstek.com/en-US/Page/ECEDHA_Education_Promotion (http://www.gwinstek.com/en-US/Page/ECEDHA_Education_Promotion)

__________

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with any manufacturer, just eager in understanding the landscape.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: krzychb on March 23, 2017, 12:15:20 pm
Seems Farnell UK are now offering a "deal". They offered me the promo bundle for £3175+VAT. Not quite the same bargain the US got. I wont be buying it.
Friend of mine just received the same offer. Nowhere near the US deal, but as the latter appears to have finished, still not a bad deal.
I'm told they have about 12 units available.
I got similar offer from another vendor for 3,595 Euro + VAT. But the lead time was 3 - 8 weeks.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: lukier on March 23, 2017, 12:16:59 pm
In deed. in these days of the global market.. the old techniques just dont' cut it any longer. I'm NOT goign to pay a 50% premium just becuase i am in New Zealand. End of story.

And if you set the price with a promostion you better be ready to sell it again at that price, cause you've just set the expectation. and you know whwat.. I have plenty of choices now of what i'll buy..  theres plenty of good scopes that will do the job for me.

Yeah, I don't get why everyone here is so excited about the $2k deal. It is a publicity stunt, 200 units, only through one US distributor (big middle finger to R&S domestic = EU market and other countries). And no way to plan and make purchasing decisions.

But to be fair even the MSRP price (e.g. Farnell UK for RTB2004/RTB-B243/RTB-B1 = 3785 GBP + VAT) is still pretty good compared to the prices of comparable scopes in the same store (e.g. Keysight MSOX3034T 350 MHz  4+16 = 7295 GBP + VAT), and I guess both manufacturers will do promos on option bundles.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on March 23, 2017, 02:02:35 pm
Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.

On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".

· The UI is slow and often lags.
· Almost any reviewer showed that they needed several trys until they could move a waveform on the screen (if more than one was shown).
· It also was often visible that a press on a button (touch = on the screen) often did not work and needed a 2nd or 3rd try.
· The screen is glossy. In my case such a scope is always located above my eyes - I would see reflections all the time.
· Immediately the screen is full of smear and fingerprints

I am sure this is not a bad scope. It shows some nice ideas and I am glad it is there, as: the more competitors, the better the products and the lower the price after some time.

Now, if somebody finds out how to hack the economy 70 Mhz version (still 1900 Euro + VAT) to a fully optioned 300 Mhz version, then this will be a nice deal for many people (though still not for the Rigol DS1074Z buyers who are on a 500 Euro budget).


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on March 23, 2017, 02:24:08 pm
Just curious, it would be disappointing if there is no runt trigger.

Without wishing to derail the thread (too much), I'm curious as to how often practically speaking these days you would actually use a runt trigger?

Back in the days of shared parallel busses, had I had a scope with runt trigger capability that would certainly have been of use, but nowadays, not so much unless you're into DDR, although I'm not sure how much use a 300MHz scope is for DDR nowadays!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 23, 2017, 02:34:40 pm
Just curious, it would be disappointing if there is no runt trigger.

Without wishing to derail the thread (too much), I'm curious as to how often practically speaking these days you would actually use a runt trigger?

Back in the days of shared parallel busses, had I had a scope with runt trigger capability that would certainly have been of use, but nowadays, not so much unless you're into DDR, although I'm not sure how much use a 300MHz scope is for DDR nowadays!

Most often on analog decodes with serial busses where there are random infrequent problems with the connection. These just show up as false lows on the digital side.  Like anything else, it is a tool and has its uses and infrequent use does not invalidate its need.   

I find it odd that it is important enough to search on, but not trigger.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 23, 2017, 03:49:34 pm
Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series.

Hm.. Keysight 3000 series is actually an 8bit scope and the RTB2000 series is a 10bit scope. literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/75019-97073.pdf p.173 explains, that the Keysight DSOX3000 is limited to 5usec/div for 10Bit vertical resolution in High Resolution Mode. 

In general boxcar reduces samplerate by a factor 4 per 1 bit less quantization noise.

But actually for a good comparison of vertical resolution for both devices we need the ENOB. Does anybody know that?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2017, 06:16:33 pm
Found some serial boot text. Nothing exciting. appears about half a sec after powerup.

Code: [Select]
U-Boot SPL 2013.01.01 (Oct 06 2016 - 16:39:22)
BOARD : Altera SOCFPGA Cyclone V Board
CLOCK: EOSC1 clock 50000 KHz
CLOCK: EOSC2 clock 50000 KHz
CLOCK: F2S_SDR_REF clock 0 KHz
CLOCK: F2S_PER_REF clock 0 KHz
CLOCK: MPU clock 925 MHz
CLOCK: DDR clock 400 MHz
CLOCK: UART clock 100000 KHz
CLOCK: MMC clock 62500 KHz
CLOCK: QSPI clock 3613 KHz
RESET: WARM
SDRAM: Initializing MMR registers
SDRAM: Calibrating PHY
SEQ.C: Preparing to start memory calibration
SEQ.C: CALIBRATION PASSED
SDRAM: 512 MiB
NAND:  Denali NAND controller
[/quote]
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Lukas on March 23, 2017, 07:16:12 pm
Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.

On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".

· The UI is slow and often lags.
This ×1000. Even if other specs are superior, a laggy UI would be a complete showstopper for me. Seems like Keysight are the only one capable of putting together a 'scope with non-laggy ui. There's no reason whatsoever in 2017 why it's acceptable that scrolling a menu lags.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: cubsfan on March 23, 2017, 07:35:24 pm
Found this on Newark's site, so I called.  They have a bunch on backorder.

http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=RTB2k-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=RTB2k-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 23, 2017, 07:36:52 pm
Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.

On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".

· The UI is slow and often lags.
This ×1000. Even if other specs are superior, a laggy UI would be a complete showstopper for me. Seems like Keysight are the only one capable of putting together a 'scope with non-laggy ui. There's no reason whatsoever in 2017 why it's acceptable that scrolling a menu lags.

I actually wonder if that was intended, and if not if it could be fixed. The touchscreen stopped updates, ethernet they slowed, knobs looked normal. Seems odd but may be a limitation with the way they're using the FPGA based SOC.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 23, 2017, 07:39:14 pm
Well, I haven't seen enough to get an impression of the responsiveness. Most of that pinch zoom etc "look mom it's a smart phone" that Watt Circuit did was pretty useless anyway.

Most of the time when I used a touch screen scope I use the touch for direct entry on numbers, quick menu access or maybe drag the cursors (zone trigger is actually nice). Most of the time you happen to do something you didn't want to do, like drag a waveform and change the horizontal delay by accident.

Sure the Keysight is fast. But even there it isn't exactly smooth to use fingers to move a trace. Would typically still use a knob to change horizontal or direct entry to adjust offset anyway.

I'm still hoping that Dave comes with a review as well, he and Mike are really good at doing different things with the scope and present it in a really useful way unlike many other review that were more unboxing and repeating the banner advertisement.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 23, 2017, 07:44:26 pm
Found this on Newark's site, so I called.  They have a bunch on backorder.

That does look like a possible second chance coming up for the folks who missed out on this round! Makes sense, Newark wouldn't want to be eclipsed by the other 2 US distributors.

Maybe that explains the 5 week lead time on the more recent orders.  Some stock on hand went to Newark when they decided they wanted to play.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 23, 2017, 08:50:07 pm
Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.

On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".

· The UI is slow and often lags.
This ×1000. Even if other specs are superior, a laggy UI would be a complete showstopper for me. Seems like Keysight are the only one capable of putting together a 'scope with non-laggy ui. There's no reason whatsoever in 2017 why it's acceptable that scrolling a menu lags.

Hm .. difficult to estimate the responsiveness from videos. As well as to estimate if a device is too loud or annoying due to its long boot time which is the downside of higher mcu-power.

But Mike already has a device for testing. He worte: "UI more sluggish than Keysight, but don't think too annoying - time will tell."

As I understand that: No showstopper for Mike. But because responsiveness of course is also an subjective issue we all probabely expect Dave' review too :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2017, 08:54:54 pm
Impression so far re. UI responsiveness - in many respects it is slower than the Keysight,  but if I wasn't used to that scope, I don't think I'd find it too annoying. The more important stuff like sliding waveforms is pretty good - pinch gestures and other things that cause mode changes are a little slower.
Nothing seems to get slower depending on acquisition memory size - I've not figured out exactly how "auto" memory size behaves, but a full-memory acquisition with serial decode, and touch-scrolling along the zoomed view  doesn't seem to be any problem at all.
Menus etc. could be a little more snappy, but you're never consciously waiting for anything to happen 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 23, 2017, 09:17:57 pm
Protocol & bus decode, and a few minor bugs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTsbYqhZiSg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTsbYqhZiSg)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on March 23, 2017, 10:32:33 pm
Thanks Mike,

I wonder if R&S will pay a bug finder fee per bug - then you are in for a good monthly salary :) - not that any of the bugs was really serious. Which firmware version is yours?

but thanks again
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ElectronMan on March 24, 2017, 12:31:25 am
Thanks Mike,

I wonder if R&S will pay a bug finder fee per bug - then you are in for a good monthly salary :) - not that any of the bugs was really serious. Which firmware version is yours?

but thanks again

Assuming that is how it works. I know that when I am working with any piece of hardware/software, I don't find bugs.... bugs find me.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Lukas on March 24, 2017, 01:19:55 am
People seem to forget that adding a capacitive touch screen to their products evokes a slew of expectations from potential users. When operating a device with a touch screen I expect it to behave as responsive as a tablet - heck, even really cheap tablets manage to do non-skippy scrolling. Since a touch screen provides no haptic feedback, some instant feedback when touching something on screen is of great importance. By instant I really mean instant - the very moment the finger hits the screen. Shouldn't be that hard...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 24, 2017, 01:39:44 am
People seem to forget that adding a capacitive touch screen to their products evokes a slew of expectations from potential users. When operating a device with a touch screen I expect it to behave as responsive as a tablet - heck, even really cheap tablets manage to do non-skippy scrolling. Since a touch screen provides no haptic feedback, some instant feedback when touching something on screen is of great importance. By instant I really mean instant - the very moment the finger hits the screen. Shouldn't be that hard...

I'm not so sure. Even my Galaxy 6 isn't instant. Obviously everything has latency but it's about how much. Mikes video makes it look plenty responsive but if your requirement is that it's imperceivable then you definitely don't want it. Even the keysight videos of the 4000x scopes don't look instant, also not 100% error-proof either. Never used either scope though so just going off videos.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Lukas on March 24, 2017, 01:55:12 am
Sure, my dated Galaxy Nexus isn't instant as well, but when I touch a menu item, I usually get instant feedback that I touched it and scrolling doesn't lag. I've played with the RTB2000 and some of the keysight scopes at embedded world and the keysight scopes were way more smooth to operate.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 24, 2017, 02:01:46 am
I am basically unhappy with 8 bit DSOs. I don't like too much noise in my measurement device when I want to see how much noise my circuit has.

Therefore I consider the RTB2000 as a milestone. I hope that we see further improvements in this direction also from other vendors.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 24, 2017, 02:13:09 am
Sure, my dated Galaxy Nexus isn't instant as well, but when I touch a menu item, I usually get instant feedback that I touched it and scrolling doesn't lag. I've played with the RTB2000 and some of the keysight scopes at embedded world and the keysight scopes were way more smooth to operate.

Yea, keysight seems to be more or less the gold standard for scope interfacing right now. Responsive, clean, and smooth. However, the price matches and you don't always get higher measurable specs for the money. From what I've seen though they stick to 10 divs horizontal and even the 4000x series scope still have an 800x600 resolution screen. Like anything scopes have alot of give and take and you're usually best off waiting as long as you can because things just get better.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: technogeeky on March 24, 2017, 03:07:52 am
Don't compare it with a Keysight 3000 series. The UI of the Keysight 3000 series is quick and free of any lag. And even with 4 channels switched on plus some digital channels plus enabled decoder it will never show any lag on the screen.
This RTB2004 needs to be compared with a Rigol 2000/4000 or Keysight 2000 series, but not the 3000 series.

On the first glance I thought wow, but after watching some reviews I can say: "what I have seen of the R&S scope does not impress me too much".

· The UI is slow and often lags.
· Almost any reviewer showed that they needed several trys until they could move a waveform on the screen (if more than one was shown).
· It also was often visible that a press on a button (touch = on the screen) often did not work and needed a 2nd or 3rd try.
· The screen is glossy. In my case such a scope is always located above my eyes - I would see reflections all the time.
· Immediately the screen is full of smear and fingerprints

I am sure this is not a bad scope. It shows some nice ideas and I am glad it is there, as: the more competitors, the better the products and the lower the price after some time.

Now, if somebody finds out how to hack the economy 70 Mhz version (still 1900 Euro + VAT) to a fully optioned 300 Mhz version, then this will be a nice deal for many people (though still not for the Rigol DS1074Z buyers who are on a 500 Euro budget).

I just watched the whole 50 freakin' minutes of mike's video on R&S serial decoding. While the touchscreen-waveform control portions might be a bit laggy, the overall performance seems excellent to me. The features are excellent. The UI is incredible; it's very smart and versatile.

The shiny screen thing I suppose is a problem if your preference disagrees with this configuration. I do know that some of the matte UV protective and glare-free options have problems with chemicals e.g. acetone, but I suspect this is probably just a price decision.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 24, 2017, 03:40:52 am
Watched Mike's serial decode vid. At the $2080.00 promo pricing for US/Canada(which is over) the scope seems like a bargain, at retail price it doesn't do too much for me. I do like how much thought has been put into using the LCD resolution.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ElectronMan on March 24, 2017, 04:19:06 am
Watched Mike's serial decode vid. At the $2080.00 promo pricing for US/Canada(which is over) the scope seems like a bargain, at retail price it doesn't do too much for me. I do like how much thought has been put into using the LCD resolution.

I was thinking the same thing until I remembered that the serial decode options I was salivating over don't come with it at that price.

I do like the R&S serial decode a lot more than that on my Keysight scope though. Especially with the higher resolution and clever resizing of the decoded data.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on March 24, 2017, 04:22:59 am
Mike, huuuuge thanks for your tireless work getting these videos filmed, edited, and posted! I've been in the market for a first scope for about a year. I feel very fortunate to have been paying attention when this one came out with such an aggressive offer which seemed uncharacteristic of a top brand. It stretched my budget for sure but I jumped on it and am eagerly awaiting delivery (it's gonna be a long month). In the meantime I'm starving for deep content on real world use. Can't wait for the next vid!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 24, 2017, 07:08:55 am
I´ve seen both scopes on the Embedded World. And thats a kind of personal preference. I didn´t like the capability to touch the channel position or trigger marker on the KS3000&4000. With normal hands, hope i got some, it is already difficult to grab them at the left side of the display. So the way to splitt that to both sides of the display and positioning the channel inside the window in addition, like R&S is doing, is a much better opportunity.

The other responsiveness equals the same on a key menu or numeric input.
All in all both are pretty equal on the UI.

But R&S is more courageous in trying to give some new opportunities in how to handle devices.
Especially the resizable windows are awesome when used on the serial dcode or FFT, instead of painful permanently navigating the menus to switch table on/off.
This are things i´ve been missing on other vendors the last years. And this is not only a matter of KS.

So time will tell if there are things that pushes through.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: WattSekunde on March 24, 2017, 10:43:27 am


Looks like at least Farnell Germany might have the app bundle available soon?
http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-pk1/software-bundle-oszilloskope/dp/2723131?ost=RTB-PK1.02&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=Alle&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-pk1/software-bundle-oszilloskope/dp/2723131?ost=RTB-PK1.02&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=Alle&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

Thank's! That looks good. But it's a software only bundle. Better than nothing.
Two days ago I asked R&S about the early adopter bundle for Europe and they are moving the question to some sales office...

The complete bundle (RTB2004 OSCILLOSCOPE 4 CHANNEL, 300MHz PROMOTIONAL PACKAGE) is for 5500,- Euro + VAT. Compare that to $ 2080+VAT in the US?  >:(

http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://de.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

And now the "rtb2k-com4-launch-edition" at de.farnell is gone even before there was a unit available :palm: ... Let's hope it come back with a similar price point to the US offers.   :=\
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Gabri74 on March 24, 2017, 11:31:15 am
Starting today they are listed by Elpav (Italian distributor):

http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm (http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm)


RTB2002 (70MHz 2Ch)            euro 1.250,00
RTBM2004 (70MHz 4Ch)            euro 1.900,00
RTB-221 (up 100MHz 2Ch)    euro 275,00
RTB-222 (up 200MHz 2Ch)    euro 895,00
RTB-223 (up 300MHz 2Ch)    euro 1.700,00
RTB-241 (up 100MHz 4Ch)    euro 225,00
RTB-242 (up 200MHz 4Ch)    euro 745,00
RTB-243 (up 300MHz 2Ch)    euro 1.750,00
RTB-B1 (up to MSO)                    euro 700,00
RTB-B6 (gen. arb. 25MHz)    euro 700,00

No mention of decode options cost  :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 24, 2017, 12:53:02 pm
To: Mike

I watched your teardown and remembered your comments on the beeper.  Turns out you can set the beeper to beep on trigger.

From pg. 181 of the manual, Remote Control Commands

SYSTem:BEEPer:TRIG:STATe
Enables or disables the beep if a trigger occurs.
Parameters:
<TriggerBeep> ON | OFF

I was under the impression that there is a button / menu choice for all commands, but I have no way to test my assumption. yet ^-^

Cheers and thanks again for all your work.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 24, 2017, 01:37:17 pm
To: Mike

I watched your teardown and remembered your comments on the beeper.  Turns out you can set the beeper to beep on trigger.

From pg. 181 of the manual, Remote Control Commands

SYSTem:BEEPer:TRIG:STATe
Enables or disables the beep if a trigger occurs.
Parameters:
<TriggerBeep> ON | OFF

I was under the impression that there is a button / menu choice for all commands, but I have no way to test my assumption. yet ^-^


This does work, and it is persistent across power cycles, However it's extremely quiet - if you have something next to it with a more noisy fan you can barely hear it. On the plus side you can leave it on and it won't be annoying

Haven't seen it in any menus, and don't think there is a way to enter SCPI on the scope - you can do it via the web interface.

Incidentally I just noticed that interfacing is via USB OR Ethernet, but can't have both enabled at the same time, and it's not smart enough to auto-swap to ethernet if USB is not plugged in.

I did a port scan and looks like HTTP is the only service on Ethernet.



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: salviador on March 24, 2017, 01:52:07 pm
Starting today they are listed by Elpav (Italian distributor):

http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm (http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm)


RTB2002 (70MHz 2Ch)            euro 1.250,00
RTBM2004 (70MHz 4Ch)            euro 1.900,00
RTB-221 (up 100MHz 2Ch)    euro 275,00
RTB-222 (up 200MHz 2Ch)    euro 895,00
RTB-223 (up 300MHz 2Ch)    euro 1.700,00
RTB-241 (up 100MHz 4Ch)    euro 225,00
RTB-242 (up 200MHz 4Ch)    euro 745,00
RTB-243 (up 300MHz 2Ch)    euro 1.750,00
RTB-B1 (up to MSO)                    euro 700,00
RTB-B6 (gen. arb. 25MHz)    euro 700,00

No mention of decode options cost  :-//

Grazie Grabi!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 24, 2017, 01:56:26 pm
To: Mike

I watched your teardown and remembered your comments on the beeper.  Turns out you can set the beeper to beep on trigger.

From pg. 181 of the manual, Remote Control Commands

SYSTem:BEEPer:TRIG:STATe
Enables or disables the beep if a trigger occurs.
Parameters:
<TriggerBeep> ON | OFF

I was under the impression that there is a button / menu choice for all commands, but I have no way to test my assumption. yet ^-^


This does work, and it is persistent across power cycles, However it's extremely quiet - if you have something next to it with a more noisy fan you can barely hear it. On the plus side you can leave it on and it won't be annoying

Haven't seen it in any menus, and don't think there is a way to enter SCPI on the scope - you can do it via the web interface.

Incidentally I just noticed that interfacing is via USB OR Ethernet, but can't have both enabled at the same time, and it's not smart enough to auto-swap to ethernet if USB is not plugged in.

I did a port scan and looks like HTTP is the only service on Ethernet.

 :-DD Just wait, some dude will come out with a "hack" that puts a whacking great buzzer on it! (won't be me!) :palm:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 24, 2017, 02:05:23 pm
To: Mike

I watched your teardown and remembered your comments on the beeper.  Turns out you can set the beeper to beep on trigger.

From pg. 181 of the manual, Remote Control Commands

SYSTem:BEEPer:TRIG:STATe
Enables or disables the beep if a trigger occurs.
Parameters:
<TriggerBeep> ON | OFF

I was under the impression that there is a button / menu choice for all commands, but I have no way to test my assumption. yet ^-^


This does work, and it is persistent across power cycles, However it's extremely quiet - if you have something next to it with a more noisy fan you can barely hear it. On the plus side you can leave it on and it won't be annoying

Haven't seen it in any menus, and don't think there is a way to enter SCPI on the scope - you can do it via the web interface.

Incidentally I just noticed that interfacing is via USB OR Ethernet, but can't have both enabled at the same time, and it's not smart enough to auto-swap to ethernet if USB is not plugged in.

I did a port scan and looks like HTTP is the only service on Ethernet.

Nice ... if the beeper is still available. The HMO & RTB series do support a kind of open setup file format which is called  SCP (from SCPI).
This is a simple text file which can be loaded as device setup, e.g.

CHAN1:STAT ON
CHAN2:STAT ON
CHAN1:SCAL 0.5
CHAN2:SCAL 0.5

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 24, 2017, 02:27:18 pm
To: Mike

I watched your teardown and remembered your comments on the beeper.  Turns out you can set the beeper to beep on trigger.

From pg. 181 of the manual, Remote Control Commands

SYSTem:BEEPer:TRIG:STATe
Enables or disables the beep if a trigger occurs.
Parameters:
<TriggerBeep> ON | OFF

I was under the impression that there is a button / menu choice for all commands, but I have no way to test my assumption. yet ^-^


This does work, and it is persistent across power cycles, However it's extremely quiet - if you have something next to it with a more noisy fan you can barely hear it. On the plus side you can leave it on and it won't be annoying

Haven't seen it in any menus, and don't think there is a way to enter SCPI on the scope - you can do it via the web interface.

Incidentally I just noticed that interfacing is via USB OR Ethernet, but can't have both enabled at the same time, and it's not smart enough to auto-swap to ethernet if USB is not plugged in.

I did a port scan and looks like HTTP is the only service on Ethernet.

 :-DD Just wait, some dude will come out with a "hack" that puts a whacking great buzzer on it! (won't be me!) :palm:

... :-DD  no need for a "hack" just use the arb gen or the trigger out pulse ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 24, 2017, 04:01:05 pm
Starting today they are listed by Elpav (Italian distributor):
http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm (http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm)

RTB2002 (70MHz 2Ch)            euro 1.250,00
RTBM2004 (70MHz 4Ch)            euro 1.900,00
RTB-221 (up 100MHz 2Ch)    euro 275,00
RTB-222 (up 200MHz 2Ch)    euro 895,00
RTB-223 (up 300MHz 2Ch)    euro 1.700,00
RTB-241 (up 100MHz 4Ch)    euro 225,00
RTB-242 (up 200MHz 4Ch)    euro 745,00
RTB-243 (up 300MHz 2Ch)    euro 1.750,00
RTB-B1 (up to MSO)                    euro 700,00
RTB-B6 (gen. arb. 25MHz)    euro 700,00

Why would the 4-channel upgrades to 100 or 200 MHz be less expensive than the corresponding 2-channel upgrades?? 

Or do I have to buy them both, e.g. RTB-222 to upgrade the first 2 channels to 200 MHz, plus RTB-242 to upgrade the other two channels?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on March 24, 2017, 04:08:11 pm

Why would the 4-channel upgrades to 100 or 200 MHz be less expensive than the corresponding 2-channel upgrades?? 

Or do I have to buy them both, e.g. RTB-222 to upgrade the first 2 channels to 200 MHz, plus RTB-242 to upgrade the other two channels?

That does seem silly.
In the US market, looks like the
100MHz Upgrade is $305 for 2, $250 for 4   ... eh? ....
200MHz upgrade is $790 for 2, $815 for 4. 
300MHz upgrade is $1860 for 2, $1915 for 4 ...

Saa..... that is pretty weird.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Lukas on March 24, 2017, 05:25:50 pm
Don't get me wrong, the RTB2000 are perfectly usable scopes, but lack the fun of using the Agilent/Keysight infiniivision scopes. On the dated MSO5000/6000 series, turning the dedicated intensity knob brought up a vu-meter style popup indicating the intensity level. One may believe that the needle and the knob are linked with gears, there's zero lag. The same goes for the timebase knob: Spinning the timebase knob makes you forget that you're operating a DSO, it's as fast as with a good old analog 'scope. Perhaps I'm kinda spoiled, but that's what I expect from DSOs these days. Agilent managed to do it with a PowerPC CPU and an ASIC 10 years ago, so it shouldn't be rocket science today...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 24, 2017, 05:45:34 pm
Don't get me wrong, the RTB2000 are perfectly usable scopes, but lack the fun of using the Agilent/Keysight infiniivision scopes. On the dated MSO5000/6000 series, turning the dedicated intensity knob brought up a vu-meter style popup indicating the intensity level. One may believe that the needle and the knob are linked with gears, there's zero lag. The same goes for the timebase knob: Spinning the timebase knob makes you forget that you're operating a DSO, it's as fast as with a good old analog 'scope. Perhaps I'm kinda spoiled, but that's what I expect from DSOs these days. Agilent managed to do it with a PowerPC CPU and an ASIC 10 years ago, so it shouldn't be rocket science today...

I still use my Agilent 54622D scope a lot more than my Rigol MSO2702A.  It boots very fast.  It can trigger CAN, LIN, SPI, i2c, pattern... even USB on CH1, CH2 and any of the 16 digital channels.  It lacks color and serial DECODE, but for a 15 year old scope, it is amazing.  And as Lukas says, the vu-meter intensity indicator works very well.  You can buy used units on eBay for around $250-$300 and they are usually in a good shape.  Digital probe cable is missing on most of these items, but you can get replacements also on eBay for little money.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: WattSekunde on March 24, 2017, 05:52:21 pm
Starting today they are listed by Elpav (Italian distributor):

http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm (http://elpav.it/pagina_oscilloscopi.htm)


RTB2002 (70MHz 2Ch)            euro 1.250,00
RTBM2004 (70MHz 4Ch)            euro 1.900,00
RTB-221 (up 100MHz 2Ch)    euro 275,00
RTB-222 (up 200MHz 2Ch)    euro 895,00
RTB-223 (up 300MHz 2Ch)    euro 1.700,00
RTB-241 (up 100MHz 4Ch)    euro 225,00
RTB-242 (up 200MHz 4Ch)    euro 745,00
RTB-243 (up 300MHz 2Ch)    euro 1.750,00
RTB-B1 (up to MSO)                    euro 700,00
RTB-B6 (gen. arb. 25MHz)    euro 700,00

No mention of decode options cost  :-//

These are nearly copies from http://shop.rohde-schwarz.com (http://shop.rohde-schwarz.com)

The decode options are:
RTB-K1 (I2C/SPI)                   euro 480,-
RTB-K2 (UART/RS232)            euro 480,-
RTB-K3 (CAN/LIN)                  euro 480,-
RTB-K15 (seg.mem & hist.)     euro 700,-

Farnell have/had been some packages:
RTB-PK1 (? ? ? ???)                             euro 1172,-
RTB-COM4 (RTB2004+B243+B1+PK1)  euro 5500,- (It's now gone.  ???)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: WattSekunde on March 24, 2017, 06:13:28 pm
Don't get me wrong, the RTB2000 are perfectly usable scopes, but lack the fun of using the Agilent/Keysight infiniivision scopes. On the dated MSO5000/6000 series, turning the dedicated intensity knob brought up a vu-meter style popup indicating the intensity level. One may believe that the needle and the knob are linked with gears, there's zero lag. The same goes for the timebase knob: Spinning the timebase knob makes you forget that you're operating a DSO, it's as fast as with a good old analog 'scope. Perhaps I'm kinda spoiled, but that's what I expect from DSOs these days. Agilent managed to do it with a PowerPC CPU and an ASIC 10 years ago, so it shouldn't be rocket science today...

I still use my Agilent 54622D scope a lot more than my Rigol MSO2702A.  It boots very fast.  It can trigger CAN, LIN, SPI, i2c, pattern... even USB on CH1, CH2 and any of the 16 digital channels.  It lacks color and serial DECODE, but for a 15 year old scope, it is amazing.  And as Lukas says, the vu-meter intensity indicator works very well.  You can buy used units on eBay for around $250-$300 and they are usually in a good shape.  Digital probe cable is missing on most of these items, but you can get replacements also on eBay for little money.

I think I go for HMO1212 or Rigol DS4014E (all options free until June 30th) or DSOX1102G if I win one this month ;). The RTB with the needed options is out of my personal range.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zebble on March 24, 2017, 06:15:28 pm
Ordered from the Canadian site, and the order went through!  Only to get an email today from Newark that the order has been cancelled due to "export restrictions".

Fail #2.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 24, 2017, 06:36:05 pm
Ordered from the Canadian site, and the order went through!  Only to get an email today from Newark that the order has been cancelled due to "export restrictions".

Fail #2.

Oh man that sux ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Gabri74 on March 24, 2017, 06:36:17 pm
You can buy used units on eBay for around $250-$300 and they are usually in a good shape.  Digital probe cable is missing on most of these items, but you can get replacements also on eBay for little money.

Yeeahhh... not in my country  :'(
Buying used equipment outside USA at honest prices seems almost impossible
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: irakandjii on March 25, 2017, 01:41:06 pm
To: Mikeselecticstuff

Would it be possible for you to try setting up the decode to capture very long frame delayed captures?  One (1) protocol packet every x seconds. 0<x<7200+ for example.

I understand the method would be:
1) Select the sample size of the record in memory.  (10k Sa, 13k of them) for instance
2) Set trigger (Frame start)
3) Not sure how you do the next part, to ensure just one capture in a single record
4) Review the records in history

The idea is there could be minutes between each frame / record.  Yet we could look at them contiguously in history, and even save that history to a file.

I trust this is not a bother, and thanks in advance.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 25, 2017, 02:20:24 pm
 That should be doable with segmented memory. I've not explored that yet.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 25, 2017, 04:18:40 pm
3) Not sure how you do the next part, to ensure just one capture in a single record
Trigger Mode: NORMAL
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 25, 2017, 05:20:01 pm
3) Not sure how you do the next part, to ensure just one capture in a single record
Trigger Mode: NORMAL
That only gives you the last record. You need segmented to capture multiple records
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 25, 2017, 09:48:32 pm
3) Not sure how you do the next part, to ensure just one capture in a single record
Trigger Mode: NORMAL
That only gives you the last record. You need segmented to capture multiple records
Sorry, I was answering only question #3. 

You need segmented + Trigger Mode in NORMAL.  I don't have the RTB2000 but I tested on the Keysight 1000X series and you can capture up to 50 segments using any delay between one segment to the next.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 26, 2017, 05:08:28 am
WOW - R&S still hasn't sent a review scope to Dave after all this time?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrBungle on March 26, 2017, 07:14:41 am
Dave still hasn't reviewed scopes he does have  ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 26, 2017, 05:03:28 pm
I'm looking forward to Mike's next reviews. Hopefully that test of a 20Hz 400uV sine on high res mode to see if it can do what the HMO1212 did. :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on March 26, 2017, 06:45:52 pm
Dave's seemed distant for a while. Very inactive relative to his normal self. Sounds like he was busy with a hiccup of his probe and maybe YouTube channel.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: SeanB on March 26, 2017, 06:50:30 pm
One Dave, 2 children, one Dave2 to mentor and generally juggling, so yes likely as busy as a bee for sure.  Don't mind that at all, after all it is his own priorities he works on, and they generally do coincide with those of a lot of people here as well.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 26, 2017, 06:51:52 pm
I'm looking forward to Mike's next reviews. Hopefully that test of a 20Hz 400uV sine on high res mode to see if it can do what the HMO1212 did. :)
I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 26, 2017, 07:01:55 pm
I'm looking forward to Mike's next reviews. Hopefully that test of a 20Hz 400uV sine on high res mode to see if it can do what the HMO1212 did. :)
I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.
No attenuator at hand? I create low level signals using an attenuator. The noise gets attenuated as well.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 26, 2017, 08:10:26 pm
I'm looking forward to Mike's next reviews. Hopefully that test of a 20Hz 400uV sine on high res mode to see if it can do what the HMO1212 did. :)
I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.
No attenuator at hand? I create low level signals using an attenuator. The noise gets attenuated as well.
Yes but only if it's shielded
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 26, 2017, 10:02:48 pm
I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.

If you have a 24 bit sound card in a PC the (free) ARTA audio testing software will do the job:

http://www.artalabs.hr/ (http://www.artalabs.hr/)

You will loose bits as the PC volume slider is decreased, but still will probably be above the 16 bits of the high-res scope mode.  If it won't go that low before cutoff with the PC slider a resistive divider would be OK, just stay above 5K or so total to keep from loading whatever the sound card is using for an output chip.  I know that is a lot of set-up stuff though and probably not on the schedule any time soon.  :)  I'll do the test when I eventually get my RTB2004's, in May now they say.   I have a ultra-low THD 1KHz audio oscillator, the oscillator in a Keithley 2015, and the oscillator in a QuantAsylum QA401 audio analyzer (which is essentially a 24 bit sound card in a box).

BTW, in case folks don't remember from previous posts, this is ci11's request from back in post 450.  He and I are audio guys, so the ability of that HMO1212 in high res mode to trigger and display the 20Hz 400uV waveform is pretty good stuff.  :)   The theory here is that the RTB 2004 should be able to do at least as well, probably better, since it seems to have HAMEG DNA, lol.

Rich could easily do the test too, if he should happen to have access to a R&S UPV.  It can generate 20Hz at -100dB THD+N.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 26, 2017, 10:20:45 pm
20Hz @ 400 uV tortures a Keysight DSOX3000 series - in high res mode it will display it, trigger is hit/miss and measurements such as the frequency counter won't work. Of course the 1mV per division is zoomed and it is 8 bit. I used a 33250A with a 30dB attenuator to generate the signal.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 26, 2017, 10:26:57 pm
In most (if not all) audio chips the volume slider works in the analog domain in order not to loose bits. Ofcourse at low volumes the least significant bits will be swamped by noise. Still what is special about displaying a 400uV (RMS I assume?) 20Hz signal? I don't think there are DSOs out there which can't do that. I just tried my daily driver and it will trigger at even lower signal levels.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 26, 2017, 10:46:48 pm
Still what is special about displaying a 400uV (RMS I assume?) 20Hz signal? I don't think there are DSOs out there which can't do that. I just tried my daily driver and it will trigger at even lower signal levels.

According to the screenshot in post 450, where ci11 put out the challenge originally, it should be 400uV p-p. It seems that limiting the bandwidth (to 20 MHz, I assume) is allowed.

I forget -- which scope do you use as your "daily driver"?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 26, 2017, 11:56:51 pm
Still what is special about displaying a 400uV (RMS I assume?) 20Hz signal? I don't think there are DSOs out there which can't do that. I just tried my daily driver and it will trigger at even lower signal levels.
According to the screenshot in post 450, where ci11 put out the challenge originally, it should be 400uV p-p. It seems that limiting the bandwidth (to 20 MHz, I assume) is allowed.
I forget -- which scope do you use as your "daily driver"?
Currently a GDS2204E but that bottoms out at 650uVpp (233uV RMS).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 12:13:16 am
I have two units, one to giveaway!

BTW, I'm told that the launch deal on this scope is limited to 300 scopes in each market segment (US, Asia, Europe), so you'd better get in quick before the universities scoop them up.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C74i2QZVUAAWuSz.jpg:large)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 12:19:15 am
Dave still hasn't reviewed scopes he does have  ;D

Reviewing scopes properly takes several days solid work at least. I rarely get that sort of break, or can find time to commit to that at the moment.
And yes I have a wife and two kids (one school age, & one of which I take care of 1 full work day a week), a business to run, a new logistics employee to train, two new products in progress, and it's not like I can do lab stuff or shoot video at home when the wife is sleeping. Not to mention other videos I want to do.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 12:21:00 am
Still what is special about displaying a 400uV (RMS I assume?) 20Hz signal? I don't think there are DSOs out there which can't do that. I just tried my daily driver and it will trigger at even lower signal levels.
According to the screenshot in post 450, where ci11 put out the challenge originally, it should be 400uV p-p. It seems that limiting the bandwidth (to 20 MHz, I assume) is allowed.

If you are comparing noise on scopes then the only way to compare apples to apples is by using the 20MHz BW limit.
Indeed, it's a defacto industry standard bandwidth for PSU noise and other noise measurements.
That might make an interesting video on it's own.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on March 27, 2017, 12:39:44 am
I have two units, one to giveaway!

BTW, I'm told that the launch deal on this scope is limited to 300 scopes in each market segment (US, Asia, Europe), so you'd better get in quick before the universities scoop them up.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C74i2QZVUAAWuSz.jpg:large)

Do they have the special deal going on in Australia  ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 27, 2017, 01:07:38 am
I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.

If you have a 24 bit sound card in a PC the (free) ARTA audio testing software will do the job:

http://www.artalabs.hr/ (http://www.artalabs.hr/)

You will loose bits as the PC volume slider is decreased, but still will probably be above the 16 bits of the high-res scope mode.  If it won't go that low before cutoff with the PC slider a resistive divider would be OK, just stay above 5K or so total to keep from loading whatever the sound card is using for an output chip.  I know that is a lot of set-up stuff though and probably not on the schedule any time soon.  :)  I'll do the test when I eventually get my RTB2004's, in May now they say.   I have a ultra-low THD 1KHz audio oscillator, the oscillator in a Keithley 2015, and the oscillator in a QuantAsylum QA401 audio analyzer (which is essentially a 24 bit sound card in a box).

BTW, in case folks don't remember from previous posts, this is ci11's request from back in post 450.  He and I are audio guys, so the ability of that HMO1212 in high res mode to trigger and display the 20Hz 400uV waveform is pretty good stuff.  :)   The theory here is that the RTB 2004 should be able to do at least as well, probably better, since it seems to have HAMEG DNA, lol.

Rich could easily do the test too, if he should happen to have access to a R&S UPV.  It can generate 20Hz at -100dB THD+N.

Thanks for the BTT, agdr!

The plot in Post 450 showed a 20Hz 200µVrms signal being triggered by a HMO1212. The scope was set at 1mV/DIV with a 50ms TB, in Hi-Res mode, AC coupling and yes, Dave, the 20MHz BWL is on as can be seen on the right side of the screen. The test was kindly done by an HMO1212 owner who is still very happy with his purchase. R&S has a ton of analog magic and if they sprinkled some of that goodness in the RTB, it would not only make a nice quiet scope, but one of the few that makes it great for audio.

As agdr says, Rich can do the test easily if he has access to a UPV with the Low Distortion Generator B1 Option installed. Or he can send me a RTB and I would gladly test it...with the 20Hz 200µVrms or even lower level signals. 200µVrms is just a shade over -74dBV which is quite relevant in audio. Attached is a FFT of a 20Hz 500µVrms signal generated from the UPV, such a signal is not going to get lost in the noise floor any time soon with harmonics at and below -147dBV.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 01:13:49 am
Do they have the special deal going on in Australia  ?

Yes, talk to them.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AR on March 27, 2017, 01:23:02 am
Dave,

Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 01:31:35 am
Dave,
Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.

No, you always pay the "Australia tax" of course.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AR on March 27, 2017, 01:47:00 am
Dave,

Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 *1.1 = $3000.48 GST inclusive (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.

Just to spell it out again to buy the scope here  it will cost you "AUS $3000.48 + delivery charges"

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 27, 2017, 01:50:17 am
Dave,

Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 *1.1 = $3000.48 GST inclusive (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.

Just to spell it out again to buy the scope here  it will cost you "AUS $3000.48 + delivery charges"

I doubt Dave speaks for them - why not talk to them as he suggested?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AR on March 27, 2017, 01:54:05 am


Trust me there is method in approach, and let Dave speak for himself.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 27, 2017, 01:58:19 am
Dave,

Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 *1.1 = $3000.48 GST inclusive (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.

Just to spell it out again to buy the scope here  it will cost you "AUS $3000.48 + delivery charges"

Also by Australia tax I don't think he meant actual tax. Just like England, you can't use a 1:1 exchange rate and figure out what something costs there as compared to America. After all, America is the home of the "I want it" free.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 02:10:15 am
Dave,
Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 *1.1 = $3000.48 GST inclusive (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.
Just to spell it out again to buy the scope here  it will cost you "AUS $3000.48 + delivery charges"

Why do I have to answer the same question twice?
US price is almost never indicative of the price you pay in Australia for something, not just this scope, but almost every product you can think of.
Australian companies have to pay import duty, local custom and port handling fees etc, and you'll cop GST on top as well.
Try importing something into Oz to resell and you'll find out.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 02:14:39 am
FYI:
These are the fees I pay to get my multimeters into the country:
(http://i.imgur.com/66HnKMg.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/Y2hAG0S.png)

And people expect Oz seller to sell at the same price as other countries?  :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: usagi on March 27, 2017, 02:26:32 am
what's the better value for money, a lol'd DS1054Z, or an RTB2004?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 27, 2017, 02:31:22 am
I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.

Rich could easily do the test too, if he should happen to have access to a R&S UPV.  It can generate 20Hz at -100dB THD+N.
Unfortunately, I don't have a UPV (or any source/attenuator that can make that signal). I'll see if someone in Munich can do it though.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 27, 2017, 03:14:46 am
FYI:
These are the fees I pay to get my multimeters into the country:
(http://i.imgur.com/66HnKMg.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/Y2hAG0S.png)

And people expect Oz seller to sell at the same price as other countries?  :-//

You get really stung for those fees.   I'm sure we pay a lot less than that in our Melbourne office. I'll go and find out.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on March 27, 2017, 03:33:05 am
Duties came in at $1000.40? Coincidence or are they just making fees up because they figure a grand will do  ;)

Great to see your sample scopes arrived, Dave. I hope fortune smiles and you get the time to do a thorough review on this one. Everyone knows you have a lot on your shoulders though so I appreciate whatever you can do.  :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: boffin on March 27, 2017, 03:52:04 am
Is it possible to just get a shipping agent in Taiwan, and just ship them from there, rather to down-under and potentially back ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 27, 2017, 03:56:25 am


@Rich@RohdeScopesUSA..  How do i get a decently priced Scope in New Zealand.  I can access it in the USA and do dubious shipping... but if theres a way to do it properly i'd perfer
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on March 27, 2017, 04:18:12 am
Rich, how is the dvm feature done in the RTB?  Is there any dedicated circuitry for that or is it just calculated from the acquisition?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 27, 2017, 04:58:41 am
Rich could easily do the test too, if he should happen to have access to a R&S UPV.  It can generate 20Hz at -100dB THD+N.
Unfortunately, I don't have a UPV (or any source/attenuator that can make that signal). I'll see if someone in Munich can do it though.

-Rich

A big thanks for passing the request along!  Hopefully someone in the lab there will be able to find time to do it.  Passing that test the way ci11 found the HMO1212 can do would be another selling point for the scope, especially for us audio types. 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrBungle on March 27, 2017, 06:21:23 am
Dave still hasn't reviewed scopes he does have  ;D

Reviewing scopes properly takes several days solid work at least. I rarely get that sort of break, or can find time to commit to that at the moment.
And yes I have a wife and two kids (one school age, & one of which I take care of 1 full work day a week), a business to run, a new logistics employee to train, two new products in progress, and it's not like I can do lab stuff or shoot video at home when the wife is sleeping. Not to mention other videos I want to do.

Haha yeah I know, was just taking the piss, hence the big cheesy grin.
I was gonna stick my tongue out but that icon is kinda crap:  :P
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on March 27, 2017, 06:33:12 am
For me, if you want a decent real world scope review, Mike's are honest real world tests, not just spec and feature testing. They include the good and the bad. I can see him becoming -the- de facto scope tester.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 27, 2017, 07:31:52 am
20Hz @ 400 uV tortures a Keysight DSOX3000 series - in high res mode it will display it, trigger is hit/miss and measurements such as the frequency counter won't work. Of course the 1mV per division is zoomed and it is 8 bit. I used a 33250A with a 30dB attenuator to generate the signal.

Interesting!  Thanks for performing the test.  The 3000's were the other scope I had been seriously considering.  From  Rich's earlier quick noise floor test a 3000 series appeared to be around 2x noisier on the high vertical gain setting.  Sounds like the tiny signal is getting buried in the noise.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 08:18:40 am
For me, if you want a decent real world scope review, Mike's are honest real world tests, not just spec and feature testing. They include the good and the bad. I can see him becoming -the- de facto scope tester.
Ain't gonna happen...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 09:46:17 am
Re. low-level stuff.
The smallest 20Hz sinewave signal it will reliably trigger from is about 1mV p-p. There is a slight offset on the trigger level and it's a little jittery- maybe 3-4%. 
These were with intensity at 100%

TBH if you're seriously working with signals that low you should probably be using an external amplifier - not too difficult or expensive at audio levels.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 10:22:06 am
Anti-glare screen protector makes a huge difference to screen shininess - time will tell how durable it is but at £2.49 for two it's hardly a big deal if it needs replacing every so often.
I used this one, cut down
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191778503815?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191778503815?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 27, 2017, 10:22:37 am
It's difficult to say anything about that trace comparison since there are a number of important differences (for HiRes mode):

Naturally, I would assume to see more features on the RTB's trace since there is more data, and the HMO's smaller screen resolution also does an 'optical average'?

Interesting screenshot, cheers!

What bandwidth does that HMO1202 have that is being compared to?
The datasheet does not directly list the model BW only that in 1mV/DIV mode the BW is 100MHz (HMO Manual, page 63: Analog Channels (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/h/hmo1002_1202/HMO1002_1202_DigitalOscilloscope_UserManual_en_03.pdf))

EDIT: never mind, I'm stupid and forgot they're both in 20 MHz limit mode.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on March 27, 2017, 11:30:15 am
For me, if you want a decent real world scope review, Mike's are honest real world tests, not just spec and feature testing. They include the good and the bad. I can see him becoming -the- de facto scope tester.
Ain't gonna happen...

Hmmmmm.... of all the reviews I've seen of recently reviewed and released scopes, I can only draw one conclusion!

My point being that Dave tends to be doing teardowns rather than in-use reviews, and several others do "reviews" which add zero value beyond confirming what's on the data sheet, and the -only- person doing reviews using real use cases is you. A teardown is interesting its own right, but it's not a review of how well it works. Indeed, scope demo boards have their uses, those boards are designed to show off the good bits, not the less good bits. In the hands of a noob, reviewing a scope demo board with a scope is just confirming what's on the datasheet, and sometimes not even that, indeeed sometimes such reviews can be misleading.

Several "reviewers" are really out of their depth and/or only seem to receive scopes because they have significant Youtube subs or views, indeed I'm slightly surprised Pewdiepie, Casey Niestat or Zoella don't get scopes... or maybe they do.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 27, 2017, 11:51:19 am
Maybe that is the whole point of sending scopes to reviewers who use the demo boards: only show the good parts and get attention. Ofcourse those reviews are useless for serious scope users. Of all the RTB2000 videos (until now) the one from Mike is the most informative.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 11:51:57 am
My point being that Dave tends to be doing teardowns rather than in-use reviews

I explained that above, I want to do reviews, and intend to do reviews, but they are a massive amount of work and unfortunately often get put aside for other things. Please understand this.
I usually do a teardowns first because they are relatively quick, and I like to take apart something before I use it.

Quote
Indeed, scope demo boards have their uses, those boards are designed to show off the good bits, not the less good bits.

I use demo boards a lot for convenience. Often not of the same brand as the scope being tested.

Quote
Several "reviewers" are really out of their depth and/or only seem to receive scopes because they have significant Youtube subs or views, indeed I'm slightly surprised Pewdiepie, Casey Niestat or Zoella don't get scopes... or maybe they do.

Cynical much?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 11:59:51 am
Maybe that is the whole point of sending scopes to reviewers: only show the good parts and get attention.

I for one show many things wrong with every product I review. To the point that many complain that I bitch and moan too much about nit picking details in products.
I showed Keysights new $15k scope blow up on their big launch day.
I showed a meter that blew up in my hand and almost killed me.
The list goes on.
Companies take a massive risk sending me stuff, and several companies avoid sending me stuff for this reason.

Yes, they send them to blogger for the attention, of course, why wouldn't they? How else can they directly reach such a massive target audience in an engaging way.
They know they have to take the good with the bad. I'm not aware of any bloggers in our space who don't say negative things about a product.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 27, 2017, 12:09:36 pm
Re. low-level stuff.
The smallest 20Hz sinewave signal it will reliably trigger from is about 1mV p-p. There is a slight offset on the trigger level and it's a little jittery- maybe 3-4%. 
These were with intensity at 100%

TBH if you're seriously working with signals that low you should probably be using an external amplifier - not too difficult or expensive at audio levels.

Thanks, Mike. These are interesting results from the RTB.

The plot thickens a bit as the attached additional plot shows the HMPO1212 triggering on a 20Hz 490µV sine without Hi-Res smoothing and there is plenty of trace detail, despite the much lower 640x480 screen resolution. No offset needed but I was told that triggering reliability is much better with Hi-Res mode on. One RTB sample should not a conclusion make, so more observation is likely needed.

With regards to using an external amplifier: differential amplifiers or probes offer more amplification of low level signals, but they do not increase the dynamic range. Good low level sensitivity increases both signal integrity and the dynamic range hence the usefulness of the scope for audio.

Once again, I thank the forum member who performed these painstaking tests methodically. He owns the HMO1212.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 27, 2017, 12:15:25 pm
I too agree that most reviews out there are rather useless and more 'unboxing' style and banner spec repeating.
Both Mike & Dave do actual useful measurements or comparisons to other gear that is not just comparing numbers
(well, they actually use the gear and show why they think something is weird/great/useful/novel).

It's a bit hard to put a finger on it but I think they do actually review the scopes differently and complement each other.
While Mike is more practical usefulness and of course tied to what he does professionally, Dave likes to take it apart and compares it to other gear he has used (or has in the lab).
It's not just about the datasheet values either but rather the curiosity to see what's inside and identify technology used in the gear.

I actually like the comparisons a lot since it is really difficult to ask a vendor for demo units.

Dave also shares his opinion on what he likes about it and what he thinks is useful or better or well done. Certainly able to dis a product too; or Mike's bug findings and usability/feature suggestions.
Point being that you get a broad overview of the scope by watching different style reviews and not just the one that identifies that it has too little memory ;)

I've been looking forward to Dave getting the RTB2000.

Scope reviews are difficult. Compare a review done by Shahriar/Dave/Mike vs. e.g. Watt Circuit.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Bud on March 27, 2017, 12:25:34 pm
Maybe that is the whole point of sending scopes to reviewers who use the demo boards: only show the good parts and get attention.

The public does not give shit about good on bad reviews. I exposed much of rigol incompetence in my Project Yaigol post, regardless - people still come in droves to by rigol crap.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 12:28:52 pm
I do like to poke at real hardware and not use stuff like built-in training waveforms etc. (e.g. I initially though that the UART decode framing issue might have been because I was running at 2Mbaud, but then verified it at more common rates.)
You do see a lot of reviewers doing little more than running through manufacturers' demos etc., which is a bit lazy. Having said that, I'm too lazy to do really comprehensive reviews, and tend to focus on what interests me.

I'll be using the R&S as my main scope for a while & may do the odd short vid on particular aspects but I don't have anything planned at the moment. ( Unless Dave misses something obvious  :D )
I also have a pretty big pile of teardown items that need attention...

Quote
Maybe that is the whole point of sending scopes to reviewers: only show the good parts and get attention.

Which is why any credible reviewer will not do paid reviews or allow right of edit before publication. If a manufacturer is happy with that, they have to have confidence in their product. 

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 12:35:32 pm
Dave also shares his opinion on what he likes about it and what he thinks is useful or better or well done. Certainly able to dis a product too;

I thought I was kinda famous for dissing products?  ;D

Quote
or Mike's bug findings and usability/feature suggestions.

I usually find bugs and mention feature/usability issues in almost every review. Not sure why you think that would be a Mike only thing?

Quote
Point being that you get a broad overview of the scope by watching different style reviews and not just the one that identifies that it has too little memory ;)
I've been looking forward to Dave getting the RTB2000.

Bare in mind I have two other scopes that I got recently before this one I have not done reviews on yet. Well, actually, more than that if you go back :-[

Quote
Scope reviews are difficult.

They are actually impossible to do thoroughly.
Even on a basic scope like the new Siglent 2CH entry level job, testing and demoing every function everyone is interested in would be a several hour review.
Not to mention it being impossible to evaluate every feature in every combination to find bugs and usability issues etc. It's purely pot-luck.
Even my "quick overview" videos end up with 100-200 clips shot.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 27, 2017, 12:39:26 pm
The public does not give shit about good on bad reviews.

According to Georgia Guidestones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones) you should not worry too much about public as a whole... it's clearly on someones "todo list"... if you save some it's already sufficent  :-+ Let others enjoy good entertainment, no matter on YouTube or scope screen  :-DD


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 27, 2017, 12:53:25 pm
With regards to using an external amplifier: differential amplifiers or probes offer more amplification of low level signals, but they do not increase the dynamic range. Good low level sensitivity increases both signal integrity and the dynamic range hence the usefulness of the scope for audio.

hmm! Low sensitivity on its own is ofc nice but the scope's input amp still only does 1mV/DIV over 8 DIV with whatever resolution it has.
You can't  take advantage of sensitivity unless you can see the signal (dynamic range increased by HiRes mode) or what am I missing?

A good low noise preamp will do exactly that: improve system sensitivity, and give a noise figure better than that of the scope without preamp.
You don't necessarily give up measurement range either if your preamp has good enough noise figure, you can put attenuation after the preamp and still improve sensitivity while not amplifying overall anymore.

I also don't see how signal integrity is improved by lower sensitivity, sensitivity means I can detect signal - whether it's in good condition or not.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BloodyCactus on March 27, 2017, 12:53:55 pm
(e.g. I initially though that the UART decode framing issue might have been because I was running at 2Mbaud, but then verified it at more common rates.)

I need to see if I can reproduce that on my HMO1212 when I get some time. looks to be the exact same decode software and such, which doesnt surprise me.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 12:56:18 pm

Quote
Scope reviews are difficult.

They are actually impossible to do thoroughly.
Even on a basic scope like the new Siglent 2CH entry level job, testing and demoing every function everyone is interested in would be a several hour review.
Not to mention it being impossible to evaluate every feature in every combination to find bugs and usability issues etc. It's purely pot-luck.
Even my "quick overview" videos end up with 100-200 clips shot.
Yes - the R&S would take forever to cover thouroughly. All you can do is cover the basics and then look at what interests you, or what features are unusual (good or bad). I did nearly an hour just on serial decodes....

 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 27, 2017, 01:02:22 pm
Quote
or Mike's bug findings and usability/feature suggestions.
I usually find bugs and mention feature/usability issues in almost every review. Not sure why you think that would be a Mike only thing?

Oh, that wasn't my intention at all. You certainly do!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 27, 2017, 01:27:13 pm
Dave, Mike,

I appreciate both your work. They are different style, which is a good thing, but you both do the best "real life" videos that I have found yet.
I think (hope) everybody here respects and values your efforts and thoroughness in your videos.

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 27, 2017, 01:45:10 pm
With regards to using an external amplifier: differential amplifiers or probes offer more amplification of low level signals, but they do not increase the dynamic range. Good low level sensitivity increases both signal integrity and the dynamic range hence the usefulness of the scope for audio.

hmm! Low sensitivity on its own is ofc nice but the scope's input amp still only does 1mV/DIV over 8 DIV with whatever resolution it has.
You can't  take advantage of sensitivity unless you can see the signal (dynamic range increased by HiRes mode) or what am I missing?

A good low noise preamp will do exactly that: improve system sensitivity, and give a noise figure better than that of the scope without preamp.
You don't necessarily give up measurement range either if your preamp has good enough noise figure, you can put attenuation after the preamp and still improve sensitivity while not amplifying overall anymore.

I also don't see how signal integrity is improved by lower sensitivity, sensitivity means I can detect signal - whether it's in good condition or not.

To me, low level signal sensitivity carries with it not only detection but proper triggering. If a low level signal can be detected but not triggered, it's not of much use. Dynamic range to me means a usable visualization range which would include both being detected through good sensitivity and properly triggered. Dynamic range "improvement" from Hi-Res mode interpolates and/or averages, and that's not the same as real data properly acquired through a low-noise, sensitive analog front-end, and excellent triggering.

Naturally, a good preamp or differential amp  can bring up the signal level but they cannot make up for shortfalls inside the scope's analog front end, which is the job of the scope maker. The RTB with its proprietary 10-bit ADC and R&S' analog expertise promises a lot, and that is my original question - how can this goodness with a low level signal at low frequencies be quantified?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 27, 2017, 01:52:36 pm
OK, but don't expect me to understand you when you make up your own definitions of those terms ???

EDIT: I also am also not sure of your understanding what is in front of the ADC input in your scope...?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 02:02:21 pm
Naturally, a good preamp or differential amp  can bring up the signal level but they cannot make up for shortfalls inside the scope's analog front end, which is the job of the scope maker. The RTB with its proprietary 10-bit ADC and R&S' analog expertise promises a lot, and that is my original question - how can this goodness with a low level signal at low frequencies be quantified?
An external amplifier can make up for lower low-level performance, both in input and trigger. Some of the front-end noise will go away at higher input levels.
See attached for full-screen 20Hz sinewave at 2.5 and 25mV/div ( using internal gen which has 20mv lower limit)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 02:03:45 pm
Scope rainbow!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 27, 2017, 02:20:38 pm
Naturally, a good preamp or differential amp  can bring up the signal level but they cannot make up for shortfalls inside the scope's analog front end, which is the job of the scope maker. The RTB with its proprietary 10-bit ADC and R&S' analog expertise promises a lot, and that is my original question - how can this goodness with a low level signal at low frequencies be quantified?
An external amplifier can make up for lower low-level performance, both in input and trigger. Some of the front-end noise will go away at higher input levels.
See attached for full-screen 20Hz sinewave at 2.5 and 25mV/div ( using internal gen which has 20mv lower limit)

Thanks Mike. Gotta love all that screen real estate. Looks gorgeous.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: gslick on March 27, 2017, 02:26:39 pm
Scope rainbow!

You found the Nyan Cat feature.

Is that the 4 analog channels plus 4 math channels?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 02:36:42 pm
Yes - the R&S would take forever to cover thouroughly. All you can do is cover the basics and then look at what interests you, or what features are unusual (good or bad). I did nearly an hour just on serial decodes....

 :-+

Yes, the R&S is quite frankly a daunting scope to review, especially when you know how much work is involved. It's like starting that complex PCB design from scratch.
But yeah, I do it the same way, basic + personal interest / unusual feature.

 My review style is to simply turn the unit on and press record and start playing and talking, going wherever it leads. Footage and commentary is all shot and done then and there. Often when I'm editing I'll realise I forgot something and need to weight up whether or not it's worth going back and shooting that bit. (My editing space and lab are now in two different locations BTW)
Sometimes I'm just spent and need to finish it and get on with other stuff, so I make do with what footage I got and just release that. If you are forever refining a review and adding stuff then it's a very deep rabbit hole.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on March 27, 2017, 02:37:40 pm
I don't think anyone's saying it's easy to review a scope. However as eevblog is a vlog for electonics engineers both professional and hobbyist, I'd say a candid review of a scope's operation is worth quite a lot more than a teardown, interesting though that may be.

To put it into perspective the Ds1054Z series of videos Dave did a year or two ago were thorough enough to base a purchasing decision on.

At the other end of the spectrum having seen Ben Heck's attempt on the KS1000, I was left wondering if he'll ever receive a scope again. To compare, Applied Science, not an electronics-specific vlog,  has done tons more with his Tek scope than Ben Heck has ever done wirh his freebie Tek, and his KS1000 explains why.

My point is that if you are going to drop potentially several grand on a scope, you need a reasonably well qualified person with scruples to review it. The same doesn't necessarily apply to a $5 lipstick (if that's what lipstick costs, ahem).

So yes I am being cynical, and I don't mind confirming it!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 27, 2017, 02:40:46 pm
Quote
Scope reviews are difficult.
They are actually impossible to do thoroughly.
Even on a basic scope like the new Siglent 2CH entry level job, testing and demoing every function everyone is interested in would be a several hour review.
Not to mention it being impossible to evaluate every feature in every combination to find bugs and usability issues etc. It's purely pot-luck.
Even my "quick overview" videos end up with 100-200 clips shot.
Yes - the R&S would take forever to cover thouroughly. All you can do is cover the basics and then look at what interests you, or what features are unusual (good or bad). I did nearly an hour just on serial decodes....
I agree. The review I wrote early last year took me nearly 6 weeks (combined with other work) to complete and I still didn't cover everything. I don't even want to think how to edit that into a video. It would be like a music video clip!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 27, 2017, 03:03:02 pm
Sooo... has it killed anyone yet? :popcorn: I came here for some gore but got a testing methodology discussion instead.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 03:14:37 pm
Scope rainbow!

You found the Nyan Cat feature.

Is that the 4 analog channels plus 4 math channels?
4 analogue, 4 references plus maths
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 03:18:08 pm
Sooo... has it killed anyone yet? :popcorn: I came here for some gore but got a testing methodology discussion instead.
The MSOX1000 would make a better wepon - smaller and heavier ( steel vs. aluminium chassis)
Also the less shiny screen means the victim is less likely to see you coming.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on March 27, 2017, 03:31:00 pm
Sooo... has it killed anyone yet? :popcorn: I came here for some gore but got a testing methodology discussion instead.
The MSOX1000 would make a better wepon - smaller and heavier ( steel vs. aluminium chassis)
Also the less shiny screen means the victim is less likely to see you coming.
Stealth scopes? That'll push the price through the roof.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 27, 2017, 03:39:28 pm
1. ok we understand that a full RTB2000 review is too much for Dave for doing it right now. 2. On the other side the RTB2000 has some features many users are waiting for since the invention of the DSO :)

How can this discrepancy be solved?

Because the general feature overviews are already out there it could be a good idea to make several but short reviews from time to time that highlight special issues of the RTB2000 series. That could be vertical resolution, sensitivity, fast remote control or other issues the users have discussed in this forum.   

This approach would 1. inform users about the most important features in short-term, 2. save Dave's time and 3. Dave doesn't have to repeat things that other bloggers already have shown.   ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 27, 2017, 03:43:56 pm
Scope rainbow!

You found the Nyan Cat feature.

Is that the 4 analog channels plus 4 math channels?

4 math channels would be nice ...  but its done with 4 reference waveforms

@mike   add a unicorn with the annotation tool and post it  under #RTB2000  :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 03:48:18 pm
Scope rainbow!

You found the Nyan Cat feature.

Is that the 4 analog channels plus 4 math channels?

4 math channels would be nice ...  but its done with 4 reference waveforms

@mike   add a unicorn with the annotation tool and post it  under #RTB2000  :-+
Bugger - forgot about annotations! I think have a cunning plan....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 06:05:03 pm
Nyanscope! Excuse poor cat drawing skills.

Getting the solid pink block was tricky - the annotation only stores a finite number of blobs - if you keep drawing, earlier stuff disappears. Had do do something nasty using a reference waveform.

Pity the ARB only has one channel - could have done sound as well with 2!
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEaaCZ39wqU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEaaCZ39wqU)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 27, 2017, 06:19:14 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEaaCZ39wqU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEaaCZ39wqU)
Seems like you made the video private? So Youtube claims it isn't there?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 27, 2017, 06:36:17 pm
Ah on Twitter it works: https://twitter.com/mikelectricstuf/status/846419601529430019
hilarious!!!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 27, 2017, 06:57:40 pm
 :-+ ...  somebody out there who doesn´t like cats?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 27, 2017, 07:06:37 pm
Pity the ARB only has one channel - could have done sound as well with 2!

That absolutely rocks! ;D  Yeah I turned the sound up expecting to hear the nyancat jingle. Hey the scope has gbps connectivity, what better mascot than nyancat?   8)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 27, 2017, 07:12:29 pm
Hack the Beeper!!!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 27, 2017, 07:35:40 pm
Nyanscope! Excuse poor cat drawing skills.

Getting the solid pink block was tricky - the annotation only stores a finite number of blobs - if you keep drawing, earlier stuff disappears. Had do do something nasty using a reference waveform.

Pity the ARB only has one channel - could have done sound as well with 2!
Naahhh it's cool enough as it is!  :-+ Had a good laugh about it!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 27, 2017, 07:37:05 pm
Why hack? If it follows the logic of the other R&S Scopes it should be
Code: [Select]
SYSTem:BEEPer[:IMMediate]
Generates an immediate beep.
see: https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/h/hmo1002_1202/HMO1002_1202_SCPI_ProgrammersManual_en_01.pdf page  206

could you try this mike?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 08:08:02 pm
Why hack? If it follows the logic of the other R&S Scopes it should be
Code: [Select]
SYSTem:BEEPer[:IMMediate]
Generates an immediate beep.
see: https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/h/hmo1002_1202/HMO1002_1202_SCPI_ProgrammersManual_en_01.pdf page  206

could you try this mike?
It beeps (rather quietly) but no pitch control
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thanasisk on March 27, 2017, 08:37:28 pm
I have two units, one to giveaway!

BTW, I'm told that the launch deal on this scope is limited to 300 scopes in each market segment (US, Asia, Europe), so you'd better get in quick before the universities scoop them up.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C74i2QZVUAAWuSz.jpg:large)

Stil waiting for the launch in Europe... so far cannot find any such deal (R&S Benelux have never even replied to my email, it has been one week!)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 27, 2017, 08:40:00 pm
1. ok we understand that a full RTB2000 review is too much for Dave for doing it right now. 2. On the other side the RTB2000 has some features many users are waiting for since the invention of the DSO :)

How can this discrepancy be solved?

I drop everything else I have going on, including the two other scopes that came before this one that everyone is waiting for too.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 27, 2017, 08:53:45 pm
I have two units, one to giveaway!

the ride never ends  :scared:  :scared:  :scared:  :scared:  :scared:  :scared:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 27, 2017, 08:54:37 pm
Why hack? If it follows the logic of the other R&S Scopes it should be
Code: [Select]
SYSTem:BEEPer[:IMMediate]
Generates an immediate beep.
see: https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/h/hmo1002_1202/HMO1002_1202_SCPI_ProgrammersManual_en_01.pdf page  206

could you try this mike?
It beeps (rather quietly) but no pitch control

... is there an arb waveform available to fm-modulate a sine wave on the gen output?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 27, 2017, 08:55:34 pm
1. ok we understand that a full RTB2000 review is too much for Dave for doing it right now. 2. On the other side the RTB2000 has some features many users are waiting for since the invention of the DSO :)

How can this discrepancy be solved?
I drop everything else I have going on, including the two other scopes that came before this one that everyone is waiting for too.
Which other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 27, 2017, 09:06:15 pm
Why hack? If it follows the logic of the other R&S Scopes it should be
Code: [Select]
SYSTem:BEEPer[:IMMediate]
Generates an immediate beep.
see: https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/h/hmo1002_1202/HMO1002_1202_SCPI_ProgrammersManual_en_01.pdf page  206

could you try this mike?
It beeps (rather quietly) but no pitch control

... is there an arb waveform available to fm-modulate a sine wave on the gen output?
Don't think you can modulate with an arb, but there are quite a few options.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 27, 2017, 09:10:49 pm
Pity the ARB only has one channel - could have done sound as well with 2!

Pink cat with digestion problems flying over brand new scope screen. All in HD!
R&S could not imagine better promo :-)

Mike - full respect!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 27, 2017, 10:32:52 pm
How can this discrepancy be solved?

I drop everything else I have going on, including the two other scopes that came before this one that everyone is waiting for too.

No, careful! Please don't drop a scope!  :P
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 27, 2017, 10:40:02 pm
How can this discrepancy be solved?
I drop everything else I have going on, including the two other scopes that came before this one that everyone is waiting for too.
No, careful! Please don't drop a scope!  :P
Especially if the BNCs aren't bolted to the chassis! (Sorry, couldn't resist).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 28, 2017, 10:50:29 pm
How can this discrepancy be solved?
I drop everything else I have going on, including the two other scopes that came before this one that everyone is waiting for too.
No, careful! Please don't drop a scope!  :P
Especially if the BNCs aren't bolted to the chassis! (Sorry, couldn't resist).

Don't worry, these scopes have already broken through the eval 8bit wall without a scratch. Now the eval 8bit wall, that resisted for decades, will no longer disable honest engineers from looking behind the eval 8bit quantisation noise. Even two unknown 8bit scopes, that were sent to distract the attention of honest truthseeking users, will not stop their victory. Finally the 8bit wall ... has collapsed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 28, 2017, 11:11:39 pm
Which other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.

Keysight 1000X, Siglent 1000X-E, and I haven't done the Hameg or the GW Instek either. That four scopes that come before the R&S.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 28, 2017, 11:26:01 pm
Which other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.

Keysight 1000X, Siglent 1000X-E, and I haven't done the Hameg or the GW Instek either. That four scopes that come before the R&S.
Sounds like a job for the new employee...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 28, 2017, 11:45:30 pm
Which other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.

Keysight 1000X, Siglent 1000X-E, and I haven't done the Hameg or the GW Instek either. That four scopes that come before the R&S.

I also like the Keysight 1000X and the Siglent 1000X very much. On the other side: Keysight already delived a lot of videos during their scope month. I believe that the users expectations will be fulfilled with both scopes. I don't expect a sensation here.

Different with the RTB2000. The questions here is: Are we at the beginning of a new development cycle? After increasing samplerates, screensize, refreshrate and memory step by step for the last 20 years: Will vertical resolution and sensitivity be the feature, that will be improved by the vendors for the next decade step by step? What does the expanded dynamic mean for the measurement of THD, SNR,  etc.? Does the RTB2000 fulfill the expectations?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 29, 2017, 12:14:32 am
Send it over here, i'll review it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 29, 2017, 12:36:24 am
Which other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.

Keysight 1000X, Siglent 1000X-E, and I haven't done the Hameg or the GW Instek either. That four scopes that come before the R&S.
Do the Hameg and GW Instek so you have something new to show & tell. Others have already beaten you when it comes to the other scopes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 12:50:05 am
Do the Hameg and GW Instek so you have something new to show & tell. Others have already beaten you when it comes to the other scopes.

I don't care about being beaten.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 29, 2017, 12:51:01 am
Others have already beaten you when it comes to the other scopes.
No they have not, the 'reviews' were useless (for the RTB at least)!
Only Mike's showed it in actual use and you can see stuff on the screen. Dave does different things with scopes so it would still be valuable.
Also, there is quite a few people on the forum who bought the presale  and would love to get Dave's impression.



edit: quote mess  :S
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 29, 2017, 12:58:34 am
Others have already beaten you when it comes to the other scopes.
No they have not, the 'reviews' were useless (for the RTB at least)!
Only Mike's showed it in actual use and you can see stuff on the screen. Dave does different things with scopes so it would still be valuable.
Also, there is quite a few people on the forum who bought the presale  and would love to get Dave's impression.
Still it is zero information versus some information. I rather know more about the scopes with zero information available than the ones I've already seen in action. Mike's RTB2000 review & teardown was pretty thourough anyway and with the presale event over it is a very expensive scope.

@Dave: it is not about being beaten but I rather see something I have not seen before.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 29, 2017, 01:03:28 am
Mike's RTB2000 review & teardown was pretty thourough anyway and with the presale event over it is a very expensive scope.

What are you talking about he only looked at the decoding and that was thorough, but far from all as he said himself. There is tons in the scope we haven't seen yet.
Title: RTB2004 FFT video review?
Post by: agdr on March 29, 2017, 01:04:51 am
Speaking of things not seen yet, is anyone aware of a video review of the RTB2004 FFT posted anywhere yet?  Maybe part of one of the existing videos that I've missed. I've been using a Rigol 2000 series so there is nowhere to go  but up with the FFT, but still would love to see a review.  Especially of the RTB's FFT vs. some of these new crop of cheaper (list price) scopes coming out.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 29, 2017, 01:09:30 am
Mike's RTB2000 review & teardown was pretty thourough anyway and with the presale event over it is a very expensive scope.
What are you talking about he only looked at the decoding and that was thorough, but far from all as he said himself. There is tons in the scope we haven't seen yet.
You can't do a full functional test in a review. What Mike has showed (besides decoding) is how the menu's work, how the general operation works, etc so all in all it is a good review to get an idea whether you like the way it works or not. If you are really interested in buying it then have to do more homework, get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BravoV on March 29, 2017, 01:32:51 am
Do the Hameg and GW Instek so you have something new to show & tell. Others have already beaten you when it comes to the other scopes.

I don't care about being beaten.

Nope, you're not beaten at all, just take your time Dave.

Don't get provoked just because some grasshopper is not patience.  :-DD

When it comes to Dave vs Mike on scope's review, to me at least, its like tea vs coffee, and I love both, you guys are just different.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 29, 2017, 01:33:38 am
and with the presale event over it is a very expensive scope.

I think some options are too expensive but the base versions and the bandwidth-upgrades are ok. Even if it would be an 8bit DSO. But it is not. And it is the only 10bit device in that price class as far as I know. No competition for the moment. How to evaluate the fair price? Depends on the user and how much he needs I device that has less noise than other DSOs.
Title: The promo deal IS still on at Newark for USA buyers
Post by: agdr on March 29, 2017, 01:46:20 am
...and with the presale event over it is a very expensive scope.

Just a reminder that the $2080 promo package deal on the RTB2004 *is* still going on at Newark, but apparently they can only sell into the USA market.  They have a pricing mixup with their system though.  I exchanged some PMs today with a fellow buying one and Rich from R&S.  The website shows $2080 here

http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=rtb2004&categoryId=800000047008&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=rtb2004&categoryId=800000047008&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

But when you put it in your cart the number may flip to the $7900 (or $8600 I just learned) list price for the package.  Or it may show the correct price in the cart and $8600 then show up in the email confirm.  The system is grabbing from a database that doesn't have the promo pricing now that the deal is over at the other two US distributors.  Rich says you have to call into Newark's sales department and talk to them to get it priced correctly, until they can get the database thing worked out.

Only 50 units available apparently, total, at the promo price. No idea how many are sold already.

So in a nutshell, for USA buyers anyway, this really is a second chance if you missed the first round at the other 2 US distributors.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 29, 2017, 01:47:20 am
If you are really interested in buying it then have to do more homework, get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.

OFC I am interested, why do you think I keep posting in here - which IS part of "doing the homework". Man I dislike remarks like that.
You can't get a loaner of this, hell you can't even buy it (5-6 weeks lead time) since there is no stock in EU. Which is the whole point of the reviewers getting early units.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 01:52:48 am
I think some options are too expensive but the base versions and the bandwidth-upgrades are ok. Even if it would be an 8bit DSO. But it is not. And it is the only 10bit device in that price class as far as I know. No competition for the moment. How to evaluate the fair price? Depends on the user and how much he needs I device that has less noise than other DSOs.

Exactly. Hard to compare apples with apples here. Only way to do that is based on price, and this is actually not a cheap scope.
And you can't do a review based on a one-off launch special either. In fact it shouldn't even be mentioned.
If I did a quick "first impressions" video now then I'd mention it, but in a review, no.
Title: Re: The promo deal IS still on at Newark for USA buyers
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 01:54:05 am
Only 50 units available apparenlty, total, at the promo price. No idea how many are sold already.

I was told there are 300 units in each market. US/EU/APAC
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 29, 2017, 02:02:27 am
If you are really interested in buying it then have to do more homework, get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.
OFC I am interested, why do you think I keep posting in here - which IS part of "doing the homework". Man I dislike remarks like that.
You can't get a loaner of this, hell you can't even buy it (5-6 weeks lead time) since there is no stock in EU. Which is the whole point of the reviewers getting early units.
Homework=reading the specifications and user manual(s) to determine the exact functions and limitations. Review videos are just like a articles in a magazine to get people's interest going but by no means a good source of information to make a purchase decission for several $k.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 29, 2017, 02:10:18 am
Thanks for stating the obvious...and I do not share your opinion regarding review videos.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 02:14:13 am
I, for example, would like to see how the RTB2000 rises up to the waveform update rate expectations in different timebases and memory depth. I guess R&S can not really mess that up, but it still would be interesting to see.

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 02:35:30 am
Used it for a few minutes and found an acquisition bug:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-fuyHCs2Sw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-fuyHCs2Sw)
Title: Re: The promo deal IS still on at Newark for USA buyers
Post by: agdr on March 29, 2017, 02:53:42 am
Only 50 units available apparenlty, total, at the promo price. No idea how many are sold already.

I was told there are 300 units in each market. US/EU/APAC

Probably is the case, but I'm pretty sure from the discussions today that Newark's allocation of that lot for round 2 is just 50.  I'll bet the other 250 is what already was sold in round 1 by the 2 US and 2 Canadian distributors.

I just figured out where the $8,600 number comes from. :)  The $7,900 list price plus tax.  That is one issue with Newark, they likely have a presence in all 50 states so everyone in the US gets taxed.  Expect to pay state tax on the $2080 promo bundle.  I had to pay tax at one of the first round distributors, $171 I think it was.

EDIT! just saw the review!  That is great.  Right off the bat you found a bug!  :-+  Thanks!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 03:00:23 am
And another (probably related) bug switching channels off and on at slow timebase

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ott9syzNLuE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ott9syzNLuE)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 03:19:25 am
I hope those can be fixed by firmware....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 03:24:32 am
I hope those can be fixed by firmware....

Absolutely no doubt.
If the channel switch off thing is like a relay breaking the input circuit or whatever and causing actual sampling signal issues, then even that can be fixed in software by masking off first. It's a display thing.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 03:29:47 am
Right. The first bug, though could be sampling hardware timing related, no? Which worst case could be at least pretty hard to fix or just with a workaround.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 03:34:04 am
Right. The first bug, though could be sampling hardware timing related, no?

Maybe just an FPGA acquisition memory sizing bug, some dodgy Verilog somewhere or something maybe.  :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 03:45:54 am
True. Time will tell I guess...  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 29, 2017, 04:25:08 am
True. Time will tell I guess...  ;)

There is very little that can't be fixed, one way or another, in software. Both bugs just look like they're displaying/interpreting the stored data erroneously.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: oh2hyt on March 29, 2017, 05:20:09 am
I contacted local R&S at start of this week. They kindly told they do not have promotion here and price for that set is 7190e + tax.  :--
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 05:47:15 am
All I needed was another few minutes using it and I just found a fairly serious issue.
Was going to do a 2nd channel video, but decided to compare with every other scope in the lab for the same issue and it's interesting enough to put on the main channel.
Stay tuned...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 29, 2017, 06:22:57 am
How does one actually compare the noise correctly? If I see it correctly in the review videos the RTB2000 seems to have 10 vertical divisions? On the other boxes it seems to be 8? Is this true or are my eyes getting old?
So do I have to scale the numbers in some way?

P.S. Still waiting at my delivery: expected next week :-). Did anybody else already get his box?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 29, 2017, 06:34:13 am
How does one actually compare the noise correctly? If I see it correctly in the review videos the RTB2000 seems to have 10 vertical divisions? On the other boxes it seems to be 8? Is this true or are my eyes getting old?
So do I have to scale the numbers in some way?

P.S. Still waiting at my delivery: expected next week :-). Did anybody else already get his box?

1mv/div is always 1mv/div despite the number of divisions unless you can't fit the noise on screen. If that's the case you can toss that scope out the window.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 29, 2017, 07:16:40 am
Dear R&S. Thanks for yoru marketing stunt. Was going to buy one, but seems i cant'. And now i just dont' like you.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 09:17:17 am
If you are really interested in buying it then have to do more homework, get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.
OFC I am interested, why do you think I keep posting in here - which IS part of "doing the homework". Man I dislike remarks like that.
You can't get a loaner of this, hell you can't even buy it (5-6 weeks lead time) since there is no stock in EU. Which is the whole point of the reviewers getting early units.
Homework=reading the specifications and user manual(s) to determine the exact functions and limitations. Review videos are just like a articles in a magazine to get people's interest going but by no means a good source of information to make a purchase decission for several $k.
That's useful, except the user manual is far from complete - in particular no significant docs on any of the options. There are also errors in the datasheets ( e.g. UART baudrate)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 09:32:05 am
I was seeing some occasional, minor glitches in roll mode when doing the nyanscope demo.
It does often seem to do more apparently intialising- type stuff when changing apparently minor things, like it's reinitialising everything on any change that might affect something rather than only changing what's needed - I think maybe this makes some things fell a little more clunky than they should.

e.g. you hear relay clicks when sample rate changes from 2.5 to 1.25Gs/s.
I agree it should show memory in the top-right area.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 09:53:31 am
Re.dave's first bug - if you change the acquisition mode, you sometimes see some major glitches in the left-hand area - it looks like it's reading from the wrong memory areas.
Interestingly if you try to capture the glitch by stopping acquisition, it overwrites the glitch before stopping, so I think just a memory offset error somewhare
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: darkstar49 on March 29, 2017, 10:54:56 am

I guess a 'modded' Tek MDO3014 is also a nice candidate, a bit more expensive, but it goes to 500Mhz, and has quite a bunch of options...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 11:59:52 am
A few more minutes playing uncovered this problem:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE9pYUVvr00 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE9pYUVvr00)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 12:04:56 pm
It does often seem to do more apparently intialising- type stuff when changing apparently minor things, like it's reinitialising everything on any change that might affect something rather than only changing what's needed - I think maybe this makes some things fell a little more clunky than they should.

That was my impression as well.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 12:23:17 pm
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 29, 2017, 12:28:21 pm
A few more minutes playing uncovered this problem:

Shocking is correct word for this issue. For very short moment was thinking getting one but with this... just imagine debugging something mechanical with it - robot or motor  :palm: When I did my motor stuff sometimes even the screws on table legs did unscrew due to high pitch vibration... and you do need mesure very low voltages on current shunts...  Now imagine some smug well paid R&S Q&A bloke driving his Porsche  :-+ World is broken  :-BROKE Who will keep systems running when current generation will be all visiting Tesla in electric heaven?

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 29, 2017, 12:33:40 pm
Now all the companies will be afraid to send Dave any new scope for review fearing he'll go full Harry Potter on its ass ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 12:41:05 pm
How many people actually tap on a touchscren?
All scopes to it to some extent.
On my unit I also see ch1 being more sensitive, but no sensible-strength tap on the screen shows it at all.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 29, 2017, 12:41:52 pm
Also, I must admit I find it a bit amusing how Dave seems genuinely disappointed at first when Siglent doesn't seem to exhibit any tapping problems while the Rigol is "good old" even the second before showing the ridiculous scale of effect at the slightest of touches ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 12:42:04 pm
I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?

I can picture in labs everywhere - "No one move, I'm trying to trigger!"

Maybe they should provide a capacitive touch feather with each unit?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 12:43:27 pm
Also, I must admit I find it a bit amusing how Dave seems genuinely disappointed at first when Siglent doesn't seem to exhibit any tapping problems while the Rigol is "good old" even the second before showing the ridiculous scale of effect at the slightest of touches ;D

Only "good old" because every man and his dog has one.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 12:46:44 pm
How many people actually tap on a touchscren?

All the time.

Quote
All scopes to it to some extent.
On my unit I also see ch1 being more sensitive, but no sensible-strength tap on the screen shows it at all.

The problem with the R&S is that a big feature is the touch screen, and you can see at the end of the video how just tapping it causes a large scale signal impulse.  And I was only at 2mV per division, not 1mV.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 12:48:13 pm
Also, I must admit I find it a bit amusing how Dave seems genuinely disappointed at first when Siglent doesn't seem to exhibit any tapping problems while the Rigol is "good old" even the second before showing the ridiculous scale of effect at the slightest of touches ;D

Only "good old" because every man and his dog has one.
..and hasn't complained about the issue, so clearly not a big deal.
Now on a portable scope it would be another matter, as it might be put on a vibrating surface.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 29, 2017, 12:50:55 pm
Note to self: do not listen to drum'n'bass while probing stuff.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 12:56:56 pm
How many people actually tap on a touchscren?

All the time.

I've never touched harder than is needed - maybe different people have different styles.

It does seem to vary between units - maybe depends how tightly the screws near the front-end are tightened - I think mine had loctite on before i took it apart - have you had yours apart yet ?

Mine shows significant disturbance on ch1, and only slight on ch4 when tapping the top case with fingers.
Tapping BNCs with a pen, near Ch1 is pretty sensitive, others produce disturbance mostly on ch1, with ch4 being a little more sensitive

But I get absolutely nothing on the touchscreen even tapping hard with fingernails ( at 1mv/div) . It does have an anti-reflection screen-protector on, which may act as a lowpass filter and damp resopnance in the glass.
Really don't see it being a problem.
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pmcouto on March 29, 2017, 01:02:32 pm
EEVblog #983 – Dave plays Whack-a-Scope!  :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 29, 2017, 01:03:47 pm
How many people actually tap on a touchscren?

All the time.

I've never touched harder than is needed - maybe different people have different styles.

This. Dave seems to inadvertently trigger some action on any touchscreen device in pretty much every episode featuring one ("Bloody touchscreens!") ;) I, on the other hand, hate fingerprints on non-touch screens and I'm sure I have stuff I used for years without ever putting my greasy fingers to its LCD. We had one colleague at work who was going absolutely ballistic when you touched his PC's screen.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on March 29, 2017, 01:06:28 pm
The problem with the R&S is that a big feature is the touch screen, and you can see at the end of the video how just tapping it causes a large scale signal impulse.  And I was only at 2mV per division, not 1mV.

Actually, CH1 was on 1mV, the rest on 2mV (at the end of the video)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 29, 2017, 01:06:36 pm
Maybe the RTB having 10-bit ADC makes it more "sensitive" than the 8-bit scopes?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Avacee on March 29, 2017, 01:07:39 pm
Now have a picture of people all across the world currently whacking their scopes, DMMS, PSU's, SMU's ....

Looking forward to future teardowns looking at whack-a-scope attenuation and for cushion mounted mainboards and connectors :)

Does whack-a-scope also cause peaks on any signal generator output? ... or DMMs and Power Supplies?
That could cause fun on SMU tests if they suffer too :p
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 01:08:50 pm
How many people actually tap on a touchscren?

All the time.

I've never touched harder than is needed - maybe different people have different styles.

This. Dave seems to inadvertently trigger some action on any touchscreen device in pretty much every episode featuring one ("Bloody touchscreens!") ;) I, on the other hand, hate fingerprints on non-touch screens and I'm sure I have stuff I used for years without ever putting my greasy fingers to its LCD. We had one colleague at work who was going absolutely ballistic when you touched his PC's screen.
I have it on a shelf above the bench, so the natural angle is to touch it with the pad of the finger - maybe if it's lower down it's prone to getting a harder touch and occasional fingernail
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: madires on March 29, 2017, 01:17:52 pm
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 01:24:29 pm
I've never touched harder than is needed - maybe different people have different styles.

Of course they do.

Quote
It does seem to vary between units - maybe depends how tightly the screws near the front-end are tightened - I think mine had loctite on before i took it apart - have you had yours apart yet ?

No, not yet. Factory freash, 5 minutes of use.
And yes it will vary between units. Component variability alone.
There is obviously direct coupling between the various connection points in the assembly, and likely the offending CH1 cap(s) are in a higher mechanical resonate mode spot on the board compared to the other channels. I used to work on this stuff all the time in my seismic days, physical location on PCB and location to rigid mounting posts makes a hell of the difference. Hit a resonance mode sweet spot and it sings like a bird.

Quote
Mine shows significant disturbance on ch1, and only slight on ch4 when tapping the top case with fingers.

Being similar to mine that indicates it's more mechanical mode coupling and PCB location resonance related than component differences.

Quote
Really don't see it being a problem.

It was blindly obvious to me in the first few minutes of using it, so I'd say it's a problem.
Tapping the BNC's, ok, every scope has a direct coupling at that point, fair enough.
Whacking the top of the unit, ok, don't do that, fair enough.
But a much touted touch screen being able to generate many division level impulses when tapped is unacceptable, even if some units aren't as susceptible.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 29, 2017, 01:26:33 pm
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?
I don't think it is broken by design.  If you watch the whole video, all the scopes does the same.  You can avoid the full touchscreen interface and operate it remotely when you need to do really sensitive measurements.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skench on March 29, 2017, 01:27:57 pm
Well this is very disappointing!

On the 16th March I paid for and placed an order for a Rohde & Schwarz RTB2K-COM4 package with TEquipment.
This was before any message appeared on their web page stating "SHIPPING TO USA ADDRESSES ONLY!".

The order was accepted and the next day I spoke to lady from TEquipment who confirmed my address and payment.

A couple of days latter I had an email conversations with TEquipment about shipping dates and was assured that I would receive a unit. In fact it was stressed that I was likely to receive one with much sooner than the quoted 3rd May.

Then just now I received a email saying:

"Unfortunately due to our contractual obligations with R & S we are unable to export any of the items sold by them and we will have to cancel the order you placed with us."

TEquipment then refunded my money that they had kindly kept in their bank for me over the last 13 days.

This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 29, 2017, 01:31:47 pm
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?
I don't think it is broken by design.  If you watch the whole video, all the scopes does the same.
But not in the same amount. The Keysight and Siglent (GW Instek too BTW) need a really hard wack to distort the signal.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 01:32:23 pm
Now have a picture of people all across the world currently whacking their scopes, DMMS, PSU's, SMU's ....
Looking forward to future teardowns looking at whack-a-scope attenuation and for cushion mounted mainboards and connectors :)

The first manufacturer to come up with an isolated front end daughter board held in place by rubber bands will win the market I tell you.
A killing will also be had on 3rd party rubber band replacement kits in 10 years time.
Just don't try to patent it, I have prior art more than a decade back.
I also have prior art on using cotton wool, antistatic foam, sorbothane, and feminine hygine products (long story).

Pro tip, it's also possible to get helpful isolation using various jazzy PCB routing techniques.

Quote
Does whack-a-scope also cause peaks on any signal generator output? ... or DMMs and Power Supplies?
That could cause fun on SMU tests if they suffer too :p

The volt and frequency nuts will tell you all about that.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 01:35:15 pm
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?
I don't think it is broken by design.  If you watch the whole video, all the scopes does the same.  You can avoid the full touchscreen interface and operate it remotely when you need to do really sensitive measurements.

Umm, why should you have to do that?
It's a pretty reasonable expectation to be able to use the touch screen feature on a touch screen scope without worrying whether it's going to impact your signal measurement.
I found this issue in normal use.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 01:39:18 pm
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.

Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 01:41:43 pm
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?
I don't think it is broken by design.  If you watch the whole video, all the scopes does the same.  You can avoid the full touchscreen interface and operate it remotely when you need to do really sensitive measurements.

So if you can't use a highly sensitive measurement gear as is it supposed to be used,but you need to have a workaround (in this case Remote Control) it is not broken by design? Maybe then they should have advertised this bug as a feature...  :-//  :--
But let's see how bad it really is for me in normal use. But if Dave finds that in the first few minutes it is probably not just a tiny thing....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 29, 2017, 01:43:48 pm
It was blindly obvious to me in the first few minutes of using it, so I'd say it's a problem.
Tapping the BNC's, ok, every scope has a direct coupling at that point, fair enough.
Whacking the top of the unit, ok, don't do that, fair enough.
But a much touted touch screen being able to generate many division level impulses when tapped is unacceptable, even if some units aren't as susceptible.

Thanks Dave - for the quick 20Hz look over and then the tap test. This is interesting.

The reason for the 20Hz test is that it matters to audio. And the mechanical coupling issues is equally relevant because the excitation is well within audio range. Even if the user doesn't pound or tap on the case, the BNC does wiggle from time to time when the probe lead is moved. And that will find its way into the waveform. We can see from the HMO1202 teardown video that the BNC's are directly soldered onto the PCB, and if this construction is repeated on the RTB, this is clearly something to think about.

I have a theory why this may not have been caught by R&S and the others. It is simply that these scope at 70MHz - 300MHz BW were designed to compete well in signal diagnosis and bus decoding, and audio is not part of their consideration. A microphone preamp designer would never miss these design and construction considerations.

I can hear it now in München - "Es war nicht im Lastenheft" (it was not in the specs).

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zbig on March 29, 2017, 01:45:03 pm
Dave, now you know why the ASIC is SAD ;)

Ok, enough bad puns for today from my side. Pinky promise.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 29, 2017, 01:50:31 pm
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?

This is how 8k-20k€ equipment is working ... while hitting the inputs with fingernails. Slapping the chassis produces this as well but not that high, its mostly covered by its noise.
I´ve to hit my RTB unit pretty hard before its doing this.

In normal use there s no problem with my one.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 02:05:05 pm
If you want this problem fixed, just talk to marketing. They'll insist upon the world's first "Low Vibration Front End".
The sales people will love because they'll be able to do side-by-side demos tapping on the competitor BNCs and showing how crap they are!
I'm serious.

LowVibTM  ;D
or the even better NoVibTM
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 02:07:41 pm
Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?

This is how 8k-20k€ equipment is working ... while hitting the inputs with fingernails. Slapping the chassis produces this as well but not that high, its mostly covered by its noise.
I´ve to hit my RTB unit pretty hard before its doing this.

In normal use there s no problem with my one.

Thanks for pointing that out. It is clear that any scope is more or les susceptible for this. In case of the RTB it worries me that using the touchscreen as intended could lead to problems.
I would have thought a venerable company like R&S has better performance in terms of unwanted signals.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 29, 2017, 02:27:43 pm
Interesting is that the heavy scopes are doing this as well. Even if they are built like a Pzkpfw VI.

@Dave which ones have chassis- mounted BNCs?


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 29, 2017, 02:40:49 pm
If you want this problem fixed, just talk to marketing. They'll insist upon the world's first "Low Vibration Front End".
The sales people will love because they'll be able to do side-by-side demos tapping on the competitor BNCs and showing how crap they are!
I'm serious.

LowVibTM  ;D
or the even better NoVibTM

This whole topic makes me slightly nostalgic...
Microphonic tubes, anyone?  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on March 29, 2017, 02:45:04 pm
I just tried the 2 of my scopes, one being quite expensive and the other at the "budget" end: a 400MHz LeCroy and a 60MHz Tek. Using the rubberized grip of my PB "Swiss Grip" #2 screwdriver, both yielded the same results: wacking on the case, nothing, even when it's a pretty hard wack; right on the BNC, yes, but it would have to be a deliberate and moderately hard wack.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 29, 2017, 02:48:25 pm
Very interesting tests. I think the case-hitting sensitivity is a question of high or low quaility but the "touchscreen normal usage" sensitivity could be a warranty issue. R&S should fix that.

As already discussed here these electromechanical issues are well known in audio technology. And R&S sells audio analyzers. I recommend that the R&S audio developers have a look at the RTB2000.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 29, 2017, 03:02:21 pm
The first manufacturer to come up with an isolated front end daughter board held in place by rubber bands will win the market I tell you.
A killing will also be had on 3rd party rubber band replacement kits in 10 years time.
Just don't try to patent it, I have prior art more than a decade back.
I also have prior art on using cotton wool, antistatic foam, sorbothane, and feminine hygine products (long story).

Pro tip, it's also possible to get helpful isolation using various jazzy PCB routing techniques.

FWIW, Tek TPS2014 (1st series) is affected by wackyness. never had to open it but i don't think the acquisition boards are held in place by rubbers ;D
infact it's pretty much worse than anyone in the video
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 29, 2017, 03:06:14 pm
Or maybe you meant mechanically isolated?
Still, scope shot is always welcome

Knocked the enclosure in the picture, knocking BNC is ~ 3 div wide instead. Still, it's VERY much affected

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170329/fa6ef4276eb0df23a58683134bf0f2c7.jpg)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thanasisk on March 29, 2017, 04:31:02 pm
Gotta love the age of the internet, enables you to make informed buying decisions !

Shocking discoveries by the way  :popcorn: 

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: GlowingGhoul on March 29, 2017, 04:41:10 pm
Well this is very disappointing!

On the 16th March I paid for and placed an order for a Rohde & Schwarz RTB2K-COM4 package with TEquipment.
This was before any message appeared on their web page stating "SHIPPING TO USA ADDRESSES ONLY!".

The order was accepted and the next day I spoke to lady from TEquipment who confirmed my address and payment.

A couple of days latter I had an email conversations with TEquipment about shipping dates and was assured that I would receive a unit. In fact it was stressed that I was likely to receive one with much sooner than the quoted 3rd May.

Then just now I received a email saying:

"Unfortunately due to our contractual obligations with R & S we are unable to export any of the items sold by them and we will have to cancel the order you placed with us."

TEquipment then refunded my money that they had kindly kept in their bank for me over the last 13 days.

This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.

Based on what I'm reading regarding the touchscreen induced anomalies consider yourself lucky to have dodged this bullet.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 29, 2017, 04:52:40 pm
Well this is very disappointing!
[...]
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.
Grrr.

Maybe you can buy Octane's scope -- he seems to be regretting his purchase now (see post #706 in this thread). Win-win!  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 29, 2017, 04:59:48 pm
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.

Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 05:02:26 pm
Well this is very disappointing!
[...]
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.
Grrr.

Maybe you can buy Octane's scope -- he seems to be regretting his purchase now (see post #706 in this thread). Win-win!  ;)

Let's first see how it behaves once I get it. I'm building up my lab here and need a scope. And since it's likely not a problem with higher V/Div I probably can live with it. Although it is disappointing to get something from a higher end manufacturer with such a stupid issue.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 29, 2017, 05:11:51 pm
Knocked the enclosure in the picture, knocking BNC is ~ 3 div wide instead. Still, it's VERY much affected

My old Tek TDS2024 have been  beaten for 5 min and nothing.
It seems that I can't join  to this privilaged club of "mikeScopes".

Anyway. tequipment has canceled my European order after they
promissed delivery on 3th May. I saw new 7 units ready to sell at their's page.
Lucky ( or not considering bugs found) those US folks who will get another chance ...

Now I have extra 2k$ to spend on the equipment:
Let's play and try to collect equal ( functionality)  or better ( price) equivalent
equipment:

Goal:
Budget: 2080USD+
Components ( could be separate):
DSO or MSO 4 channel , 200MHz+ , FFT ( for small frequecy filter graphing, EMI detection ),  I2C, Parallel, SPI, Serial decoding, ( CAN,LIN will be  +)
Arbitrary generator for at least 25MHz+
Not Rhode & Schwarz ( start to do not like this company - guess why )
Cherry on a cake - DMM 5+ digit LoZ, ESR ( covers multimeter RTB function)

Priority:
1) Quality ( mid is enough) 
2) price ( have to save some money for a beer)
3) features ( everyone likes to play)

Types:
DSO/MSO : Rigol 1054Z ( what options to buy, what options to hack?)
Arbitrary generator: ?
DMM: SANWA PC5000A ( almost the same as brymen 857)

Could you help with con/pros other proposals ?
Is there something left for descend 1GHz+ spectrum analyser ?



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 05:12:55 pm
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.

Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?

I would guess it depends on the relative orientation between the cap and the PCB. Not the overall orientation. If you excite flexing vibrations in the PCB then bending a "flat" cap is easier then a cap that's higher then wide. See beams with different aspect ratios...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 29, 2017, 05:28:18 pm
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.

Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?

I would guess it depends on the relative orientation between the cap and the PCB. Not the overall orientation.

Capacity depends on the distance between the layers. Stress on a capacitor therefore has different effects if applicated parallel or perpendicular to the layer-area. Also as Dave mentioned piezo effects of the ceramic depend on the stress direction.

This is like a condensor or piezo mic. The direction of the sound wave must have a perpendicular component to the capacitor area for changing the capacitor layer distance.

Addendum: To clarify: That means the orientation of the capacitor on the PCB is relevant because the PCB transfers the stress to the capacitor.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 29, 2017, 05:29:24 pm
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.

Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?

I would guess it depends on the relative orientation between the cap and the PCB. Not the overall orientation. If you excite flexing vibrations in the PCB then bending a "flat" cap is easier then a cap that's higher then wide. See beams with different aspect ratios...
I am testing my EDUX1002G scope and it is affected by the Wack-a-Scope feature.  But if I connect a 50ohm BNC terminator in CH1, then it is Wack-immune.  If I turn both CH1 (still with 50 ohm terminator at input) and CH2 ON, then I Wack the scope and I only see the issue on CH2.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 05:41:13 pm
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.

Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?

I would guess it depends on the relative orientation between the cap and the PCB. Not the overall orientation. If you excite flexing vibrations in the PCB then bending a "flat" cap is easier then a cap that's higher then wide. See beams with different aspect ratios...
I am testing my EDUX1002G scope and it is affected by the Wack-a-Scope feature.  But if I connect a 50ohm BNC terminator in CH1, then it is Wack-immune.  If I turn both CH1 (still with 50 ohm terminator at input) and CH2 ON, then I Wack the scope and I only see the issue on CH2.

I guess this makes sense. Since it is a piezoelectric effect you can easily "short" the voltage with the 50 Ohm resistor.
Piezos can get you high voltages with basically no current through them, as long as you are not driving them at there mechanical resonance.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on March 29, 2017, 05:46:44 pm
Dave, (off topic but...) in your experience did sorbothane live up to its hype and outperform other common vibration insulators? Or was it only marginally different in use?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 29, 2017, 05:53:59 pm
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.

Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?

I would guess it depends on the relative orientation between the cap and the PCB. Not the overall orientation. If you excite flexing vibrations in the PCB then bending a "flat" cap is easier then a cap that's higher then wide. See beams with different aspect ratios...
I am testing my EDUX1002G scope and it is affected by the Wack-a-Scope feature.  But if I connect a 50ohm BNC terminator in CH1, then it is Wack-immune.  If I turn both CH1 (still with 50 ohm terminator at input) and CH2 ON, then I Wack the scope and I only see the issue on CH2.

I guess this makes sense. Since it is a piezoelectric effect you can easily "short" the voltage with the 50 Ohm resistor.
Piezos can get you high voltages with basically no current through them, as long as you are not driving them at there mechanical resonance.
Another test: 10Hz 2mVpp sinusoidal signal from WaveGen, direct BNC-BNC cable to CH1.  Both CH1 and CH2 ON.  Display persistence infinite.  Wack the scope (quite hard) and CH1 signal does not seem to be affected, only CH2.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 05:59:12 pm
So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.

Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?

I would guess it depends on the relative orientation between the cap and the PCB. Not the overall orientation. If you excite flexing vibrations in the PCB then bending a "flat" cap is easier then a cap that's higher then wide. See beams with different aspect ratios...
I am testing my EDUX1002G scope and it is affected by the Wack-a-Scope feature.  But if I connect a 50ohm BNC terminator in CH1, then it is Wack-immune.  If I turn both CH1 (still with 50 ohm terminator at input) and CH2 ON, then I Wack the scope and I only see the issue on CH2.

I guess this makes sense. Since it is a piezoelectric effect you can easily "short" the voltage with the 50 Ohm resistor.
Piezos can get you high voltages with basically no current through them, as long as you are not driving them at there mechanical resonance.
Another test: 10Hz 2mVpp sinusoidal signal from WaveGen, direct BNC-BNC cable to CH1.  Both CH1 and CH2 ON.  Display persistence infinite.  Wack the scope (quite hard) and CH1 signal does not seem to be affected, only CH2.

WaveGen is 50 Ohm, isn't it?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 29, 2017, 06:04:16 pm
Dave, (off topic but...) in your experience did sorbothane live up to its hype and outperform other common vibration insulators? Or was it only marginally different in use?

I am using rubber granulate matte typically used for dampening washing machines. Its the best for the price that I know. The critical issue with dampening are always the bass frequencies that have a lot of energy and that are also included in the spectrum of shock bursts. Here much helps much. Therefore I think the affordable rubber granulate has an advantage if you need much.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 06:10:14 pm
With a 50R terminator on the input the issue completely disappears - only a hard wack on the connector produces maybe 1 div, so looks like energy transer into a very early part of the input stage.
Even plugging in a standard 10:1 probe with its tip shorted reduces the issue very substantially.

If you're interested in low-level signals, chances are you're going to be usjng a fairly low impedance source, but even with a normal probe it's pretty much a non-issue.

I almost wonder if it may at least in part be the dielectric of the BNC connector


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 06:14:41 pm
Dave - can you try repeating your test with the R&S probe plugged in, on 10:1 and the tip shorted.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 06:15:03 pm
I'm not aware of any piezoelectrically active plastic dielectrics if not specifically made polar, like in electret microphones? Am I wrong?
Or are you thinking more along the way of triboelectricity?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 29, 2017, 06:27:35 pm
I almost wonder if it may at least in part be the dielectric of the BNC connector
You might be right... Connect a BNC cable to CH1 and Wack the BNC on the other end of the cable...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 29, 2017, 06:32:47 pm
I almost wonder if it may at least in part be the dielectric of the BNC connector
You might be right... Connect a BNC cable to CH1 and Wack the BNC on the other end of the cable...

Yes: Beating just a BNC cable creates 5mV spikes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Messtechniker on March 29, 2017, 06:47:55 pm
Could it be that you are observing an old and well known
effect called "Microphonics"? Components and cables are known to be
microphonic to a certain extent. Simply tap on a cable carrying a
unbalanced low level microphone signal and you will see what I mean.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: piranha32 on March 29, 2017, 06:50:30 pm
I almost wonder if it may at least in part be the dielectric of the BNC connector
You might be right... Connect a BNC cable to CH1 and Wack the BNC on the other end of the cable...
The cable itself is not immune to the effect either. Dave did in the past some experiments with Tek scope and probes, and he also whacked the cable on the bench. And yes, he's got a response on the screen (rewind to 8:00): https://youtu.be/KFCRB4d991E?t=8m4s
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 06:53:17 pm
Yes, see earlier posts in this thread. And I guess we are drifting a little bit off path here.
The main issue was that the RTB2k scope seems to be very sensitive to this microphonics when just tapped on the touchscreen.
But this may not be too relevant, since this seems only to make problems when the channel is open.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 29, 2017, 06:57:27 pm
Could it be that you are observing an old and well known
effect called "Microphonics"? Components and cables are known to be
microphonic to a certain extent. Simply tap on a cable carrying a
unbalanced low level microphone signal and you will see what I mean.

I think it is pretty clear that all the effects discussed in the past couple of pages fall in the "microphonics" category, and the term has been mentioned a couple of times in the prior posts. Cables, capacitors, vacuum tube grids etc. can translate mechanical vibrations into electrical signals, like a (typically capacitive) microphone.

Your description is a bit misleading -- you don't need to connect an actual (intentional) microphone to experience (undesired) microphonics; the afore-mentioned components alone are enough to produce the effect.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 29, 2017, 07:08:39 pm
But this may not be too relevant, since this seems only to make problems when the channel is open.

Theres huge uncharted territory between open channel and shorted channel. This need scientific approach. Suggest 3D chart with following axes: X - frequency of stimulation (can be done using ultra powerful piezo etc, rigidly attached to scope chassis), Y - channel impedance ("load"), Z - scope response. Should take no more than a week of testing  :P
Of course there should be 3D acceleration sensors in various places to analyze stimulation wave propagation etc. Ideally it would be not constant wave but single soliton, otherwise standing waves could build up. Altering resonant frequency of chassis, PCB by adding sensors should be also taken into account.
So if done properly bit more than week, maybe year or so...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 29, 2017, 07:20:25 pm
But this may not be too relevant, since this seems only to make problems when the channel is open.

Theres huge uncharted territory between open channel and shorted channel. This need scientific approach. Suggest 3D chart with following axes: X - frequency of stimulation (can be done using ultra powerful piezo etc), Y - channel impedance ("load"), Z - scope response. Should take no more than a week of testing  :P

Hehe, true. But since piezo-/triboelectric sources are most of the time quite high impedance I assume that in most cases it will not be a problem. Anyways, I'm at least trying to convince myself of this, so that I can still be looking forward in getting the RTB2004.

Maybe Mike and Dave will have to say more soon, since they can already use the RTB in their daily business.

P.S.: only 2 days left to the "expected shipping" date... let's see if it is true.
Title: Re: The promo deal IS still on at Newark for USA buyers
Post by: corax on March 29, 2017, 07:35:09 pm

Just a reminder that the $2080 promo package deal on the RTB2004 *is* still going on at Newark, but apparently they can only sell into the USA market.  They have a pricing mixup with their system though.  I exchanged some PMs today with a fellow buying one and Rich from R&S.  The website shows $2080 here

http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=rtb2004&categoryId=800000047008&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=rtb2004&categoryId=800000047008&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

But when you put it in your cart the number may flip to the $7900 (or $8600 I just learned) list price for the package.  Or it may show the correct price in the cart and $8600 then show up in the email confirm.  The system is grabbing from a database that doesn't have the promo pricing now that the deal is over at the other two US distributors.  Rich says you have to call into Newark's sales department and talk to them to get it priced correctly, until they can get the database thing worked out.


I ordered one from Newark yesterday, and as predicted, the email confirmation came back today with a total of $7920 (no sales tax here).

After a bit of time on the phone with a confused Newark customer service rep, the order was cancelled/replaced and a confirmation came back with the correct price.
He stated that they had these in stock; shipping date is supposed to be tomorrow.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 29, 2017, 07:41:56 pm
One would suspect any scope with BNC's that are fastened to a chassis to exhibit lower microphonics.
Mentioned by a member was his TDS2000, Dave showed an old TDS1000 and all the Siglent's I have had apart also have nuts on the BNC holding them to a metal chassis.
Both the Teks mentioned above have BNC's fastened to chassis.
As yet I haven't looked inside a SDS1kX but I suspect they will have nuts on their BNC's too and it seems this construction method is superior in regard to lower microphonics. Can't even have a look at any of the SDS1kX....all sold out.  :(  :)

Very interesting vid Dave, thanks for taking the time to do it.
Whack a scope  :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 07:44:09 pm
But this may not be too relevant, since this seems only to make problems when the channel is open.

Theres huge uncharted territory between open channel and shorted channel. This need scientific approach. Suggest 3D chart with following axes: X - frequency of stimulation (can be done using ultra powerful piezo etc, rigidly attached to scope chassis), Y - channel impedance ("load"), Z - scope response. Should take no more than a week of testing  :P
Of course there should be 3D acceleration sensors in various places to analyze stimulation wave propagation etc. Ideally it would be not constant wave but single soliton, otherwise standing waves could build up. Altering resonant frequency of chassis, PCB by adding sensors should be also taken into account.
So if done properly bit more than week, maybe year or so...
You could test til the cows come home but there is only really one thing that matters - highest sensible input impedance and highest sensible impact.
A quick test with a x10 probe suggests it's a non-issue.
For low-level measurements chances are you'll be using 1x probing, and your source is going to need reasonably low source impedance due to the capacitance of a x1 probe. So it's even less of an issue.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 29, 2017, 07:50:31 pm
You could test til the cows come home but there is only really one thing that matters - highest sensible input impedance and highest sensible impact.

:palm: You just ruined good science project with about 100kEUR budget! Damn! What next, maybe dismiss whole CERN-fest with some embarrassingly practical remark :( People need to feed the families!
...and while at it, why not ruin go-to-Mars project also: "theres sand with life in it in my (rainbow) cat litter box, why go to Mars :-//"

Edit: Maybe theres still hope for science, what about x100 probe? These make good use of 10bit ADC.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thm_w on March 29, 2017, 08:29:37 pm
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.

Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 29, 2017, 09:19:55 pm
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.

Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).
Not true I am affraid. I've asked local R&S office directly. Price is  over 7k euro ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on March 29, 2017, 09:36:13 pm
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.

Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).
Not true I am affraid. I've asked local R&S office directly. Price is  over 7k euro ...

If R&S, after offering the launch deal to their EU distribution partners and being turned down, decided to go around them and offer it direct in the EU that would be a huge middle finger at them. That's no way to treat your distributors.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skench on March 29, 2017, 09:38:28 pm
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.

Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).
Not true I am affraid. I've asked local R&S office directly. Price is  over 7k euro ...

I did read the thread.
I was with it from the very first page.

As soon as I saw the offer (see post 198) and before any one had said this was for the USA and Canada only my order had been placed and accepted.

Only after I had placed my order did all the "USA and Canada" only messages spring up.
I question Tequipment and it all seem aright then 13 days later they cancel. Not sure how long it will be until the money is return to my account!

Anyway I am going to order one from Newark and have it delivered to are facility in Toronto for shipping here.

We will see how that works out.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skench on March 29, 2017, 09:49:30 pm
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.


Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).
Not true I am affraid. I've asked local R&S office directly. Price is  over 7k euro ...

If R&S, after offering the launch deal to their EU distribution partners and being turned down, decided to go around them and offer it direct in the EU that would be a huge middle finger at them. That's no way to treat your distributors.

I would put it the other way around in that it's no way to treat your customers!

What is the logic in the only the North Americans having the benefit of the RTB2K-COM4 package?

It's like sticking two fingers up to the rest of the world and I am not sure that it was anything to do with the distributors. I do not think all the other distributors in the rest of the world said "no we do not want the easy business".

I suspect it's R & S giving massive discount support to the US distributors and none for anyone else.

Not that I am bitter or anything.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 09:51:36 pm
Or mount them on their side  ;D (it works)
Not exactly production friendly though. Although if you want to really annoy your assembler, request it  >:D
Sorry if I am asking a dumb question... If the PCB is mounted vertical to the base of the scope (like the Keysight 1000X series), isn't it equivalent to having the multilayer caps mounted on their side?

No, it's about how the cap is coupled to the PCB and how the vibrational waves work.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 09:53:42 pm
Dave, (off topic but...) in your experience did sorbothane live up to its hype and outperform other common vibration insulators? Or was it only marginally different in use?

It was worse than anti-static foam for the particular drop tests I did on them. (Low mass PCB).
Totally dependent upon the type and force of impact and the results needed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 09:57:17 pm
Could it be that you are observing an old and well known
effect called "Microphonics"? Components and cables are known to be
microphonic to a certain extent. Simply tap on a cable carrying a
unbalanced low level microphone signal and you will see what I mean.

On a cable it's called the triboelectirc effect and it is a different mechanism.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 29, 2017, 10:00:57 pm
If R&S, after offering the launch deal to their EU distribution partners and being turned down, decided to go around them and offer it direct in the
EU that would be a huge middle finger at them. That's no way to treat your distributors.

Maybe this (not well thought) strategy will rise R&S brand view at North America.
Rest of the world will remember this deal quite opposite I'm affraid.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2017, 10:02:34 pm
I almost wonder if it may at least in part be the dielectric of the BNC connector

No, as that would be the triboelectric effect which is a frictional based mechanism. Practically impossible for that be to be a problem on a BNC with a vibration coupling.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on March 29, 2017, 10:08:54 pm
This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.


Please read the thread. Its the EU distributors that did not want to accept the deal, as they lose out on higher margins (Mike found this out).
Not true I am affraid. I've asked local R&S office directly. Price is  over 7k euro ...

If R&S, after offering the launch deal to their EU distribution partners and being turned down, decided to go around them and offer it direct in the EU that would be a huge middle finger at them. That's no way to treat your distributors.

I would put it the other way around in that it's no way to treat your customers!

What is the logic in the only the North Americans having the benefit of the RTB2K-COM4 package?

It's like sticking two fingers up to the rest of the world and I am not sure that it was anything to do with the distributors. I do not think all the other distributors in the rest of the world said "no we do not want the easy business".

I suspect it's R & S giving massive discount support to the US distributors and none for anyone else.

Not that I am bitter or anything.

Countries outside of the US often gets the finger treatment :) on test gear prices.  Yes we pay duty + VAT - but due to less competition in EU the prices are a lot higher even taking duty and VAT into account.

So most of my company's gear is bought in the US. I refuse to pay 30-50% Tektronix EU tax (excl VAT/Duty) or similar over the US prices. If SRP excl. Duty & VAT was the same - I would buy locally. Keysight is getting better than it used to be. But I do always double check their US prices vs UK prices. There is no UK Import duty on Scopes - only VAT. 2nd hand prices are also not super in the EU. MicroLease things that 25-30% discount on SRP is great for a 2 year old device? Who pays that?

:)

/k
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on March 29, 2017, 11:32:28 pm
Knocked the enclosure in the picture, knocking BNC is ~ 3 div wide instead. Still, it's VERY much affected

My old Tek TDS2024 have been  beaten for 5 min and nothing.

knocking by hand did (alsmost) nothing. could see the perturbation but couldn't trigger it. knocking with stick/multimeter probe did that mess.
please note the verical sensitivity. The TPS is excellent for its purpose (separated, isolated channels) otherwise it's a scope with terrible performance. it's otrageous you still have to pay the same price for this old crap

AFAIR the TPS is a TDS but with an isolated frond end acquisition board - per channel - . i'd have to check the service manual but i think it has a differend board per channel
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 30, 2017, 12:00:15 am
If R&S, after offering the launch deal to their EU distribution partners and being turned down, decided to go around them and offer it direct in the
EU that would be a huge middle finger at them. That's no way to treat your distributors.

Maybe this (not well thought) strategy will rise R&S brand view at North America.
Rest of the world will remember this deal quite opposite I'm affraid.

Absolutely..  What scope month has done for me, is Delete RS and Siglent from my list.    Dont' like their behaviour.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: piranha32 on March 30, 2017, 01:00:33 am
I don't see the tap sensitivity as a huge issue. Yes, it can become a pain in the posterior when using the touch screen. Yes, you have to remember about it. But it will probably become a non-issue when working with low-impedance signal sources, and when full sensitivity and immunity to disturbances is required, another great advantage of RTB comes to the rescue: remote operation using nothing more than a web browser. When operated from a computer nobody needs to touch the scope. And none of the competitors (who are also sensitive to mechanical shocks) can beat it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 30, 2017, 01:12:58 am
True. That's why I'm again looking forward happily to the day it gets delivered! :D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on March 30, 2017, 02:47:06 am
With a 50R terminator on the input the issue completely disappears - only a hard wack on the connector produces maybe 1 div, so looks like energy transer into a very early part of the input stage.
Even plugging in a standard 10:1 probe with its tip shorted reduces the issue very substantially.

Not for me.
It's still a potential issue even with a probe plugged in.
Even with a shorted x10  probe I still get 1-2mV with the poker tap on the screen. Not unexpected as the 9Mohm + low cable cap doesn't present much of a load.
Obviously it's going to be a complex interaction with the source impedance and cable used etc (which are now a "load" for the voltage impulse)
Yes it goes away with a shorted x1 probe (i.e. a low impedance source) but it's not right to say it's not a significant issue when you plug a probe in. I still see it. YMMV?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 30, 2017, 05:03:24 am
Knocked the enclosure in the picture, knocking BNC is ~ 3 div wide instead. Still, it's VERY much affected

My old Tek TDS2024 have been  beaten for 5 min and nothing.

knocking by hand did (alsmost) nothing. could see the perturbation but couldn't trigger it. knocking with stick/multimeter probe did that mess.
please note the verical sensitivity. The TPS is excellent for its purpose (separated, isolated channels) otherwise it's a scope with terrible performance. it's otrageous you still have to pay the same price for this old crap

AFAIR the TPS is a TDS but with an isolated frond end acquisition board - per channel - . i'd have to check the service manual but i think it has a differend board per channel
I've follow the Dave's procedure using mostly verticaly, hand, plastic pen, screwdriver even. Hitting at the top and bnc's causes nothing.
I must check with the probe. It's true that TDS is not a rocket science nowadays but it serve a lot of project in the past and always work.
R&S has been considered as a replacement for it but due to company/distriburors policy - I'm still looking.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on March 30, 2017, 05:19:33 am
I got an email from a Rohde & Schwarz sales representative. Quote:
"Diese Aktion ist ein "Alleingang" der Kollegen in den USA - die hatten die "glorreiche" Idee, die neuen Scopes analog zu den amerikanischen Herstellern quasi zu verschenken.

Inzwischen sollte diese Promotion durch sein, weil man in unserem Stammhaus in München darauf aufmerksam wurde - ich glaube, die Reaktionen waren nicht allzu positiv.

Kurz und gut: eine solche Aktion gibt es in Europa nicht."

It seems, that this promo in USA and Canada was a "solo attempt" of the R&S folks in America. When they found out in the headquarters in Munich, they were not amused about that.
And he is pretty sure, that a similiar promo will not happen in Europe.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: piranha32 on March 30, 2017, 05:30:55 am
It seems, that this promo in USA and Canada was a "solo attempt" of the R&S folks in America. When they found out in the headquarters in Munich, they were not amused about that.
And he is pretty sure, that a similiar promo will not happen in Europe.

This makes me even more grateful to R&S USA for pulling this marketing stunt. And also curious how the clam of having a number of scopes allocated for each market stands to reality?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on March 30, 2017, 06:20:37 am
It seems, that this promo in USA and Canada was a "solo attempt" of the R&S folks in America. When they found out in the headquarters in Munich, they were not amused about that.
And he is pretty sure, that a similiar promo will not happen in Europe.

Instead saying:
Sorry for not treating our customers equaly. Everybody makes mistakes.
We want to be fair and offer equal therms to the rest of the world.

They say:
Nothing happens. We are still want to sell 7k osciloscope for those
who were not able to buy it for 2k because our unconscious policy.

And they still want to win with Asia manufactures which become better and better.

There is always fight between quality and price.
Is the R&S entry scope 3.5 or more times better than any Rigol or Siglent ?

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 30, 2017, 06:34:51 am
ok: Dave found a potential critical issue with the touchscreen microphonics. And now this problem has to be solved:

1. Mike has no problem with the touchscreen: Which different reason causes the different result? Maybe the protection foil? Could Dave check it also with a protection foil on the second device and compare? Could be a short-term solution.

2. Is there statement from R&S? Short-term solution and long-term solution (class 1 caps in sensitive circuits, ...)?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 30, 2017, 08:03:42 am
Even with a shorted x10  probe I still get 1-2mV with the poker tap on the screen. Not unexpected as the 9Mohm + low cable cap doesn't present much of a load.

Ok, so potentially more serious with x100 probe. But what occurred to me is that at least some scopes with "russian trigger" have self-calibration feature, which is done with unloaded connectors and takes long time. Dunno if R&S has such procedure? If does maybe should attach sticker asking not fire machine guns and have other kinds of fun near scope under calibration? Or even put it in sealed nuclear-proof bunker during procedure?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nfmax on March 30, 2017, 08:05:36 am
And, of course, always the possibility that Dave has a faulty unit...

Might be a bad batch of MLCC's? I hate the things!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 30, 2017, 08:17:56 am
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 30, 2017, 08:19:42 am
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Beware the PSU problems.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 30, 2017, 08:38:03 am
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Beware the PSU problems.

I'd take your opinion with a grain of salt, as your a siglent dealer.. Running down competition just is a bad bad look
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 30, 2017, 08:39:51 am
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Beware the PSU problems.

I'd take your opinion with a grain of salt, as your a siglent dealer.. Running down competition just is a bad bad look
Opinion ?
The evidence is in several threads.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 30, 2017, 08:46:54 am
Even with a shorted x10  probe I still get 1-2mV with the poker tap on the screen. Not unexpected as the 9Mohm + low cable cap doesn't present much of a load.

Ok, so potentially more serious with x100 probe. But what occurred to me is that at least some scopes with "russian trigger" have self-calibration feature, which is done with unloaded connectors and takes long time. Dunno if R&S has such procedure? If does maybe should attach sticker asking not fire machine guns and have other kinds of fun near scope under calibration? Or even put it in sealed nuclear-proof bunker during procedure?
I would hope that cal inputs are switched in from a low impedance source.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on March 30, 2017, 08:54:43 am
I would hope that cal inputs are switched in from a low impedance source.

I seem to remember that people have gotten messed up autocal from DS1000Z, no? I got pretty good autocal, but did leave it completely alone in peace & quiet + switched off all other nearby devices that could produce EMI. So dunno, just an idea what to check for.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 30, 2017, 08:55:23 am
It seems, that this promo in USA and Canada was a "solo attempt" of the R&S folks in America. When they found out in the headquarters in Munich, they were not amused about that.
And he is pretty sure, that a similiar promo will not happen in Europe.

This makes me even more grateful to R&S USA for pulling this marketing stunt. And also curious how the clam of having a number of scopes allocated for each market stands to reality?
There are promos in Europe, just not as good.
The advertised offer of £4785 at Farnell was free options with the 300MHz MSO+AWG version, and when pressed they have quoted £3175, which is about half list price, just not as good as the US one.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 30, 2017, 08:57:41 am
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Beware the PSU problems.

I'd take your opinion with a grain of salt, as your a siglent dealer.. Running down competition just is a bad bad look
Opinion ?
The evidence is in several threads.

I dont' care if its fact or opinion.  I find it very bad form when a reseller of one brand starts bad mouthing another.  Your 'facts' are coloured by a desire to sell your product.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 30, 2017, 09:06:11 am
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Beware the PSU problems.
What PSU problems exactly?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 30, 2017, 09:07:30 am
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Beware the PSU problems.
Well at least I can fix a PSU myself. Bugs in firmware however...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on March 30, 2017, 09:10:31 am
Can get a new psu.  And theres every good chance i can fix one too.    WHat i can't fix is a scope that never materialised, or a scope that was $2000 and then became $7000 just becuase i live in teh wrong part of the planet.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 30, 2017, 09:11:35 am
I seem to remember that people have gotten messed up autocal from DS1000Z, no?

No.

(apart from one guy who had a defective scope)
Title: Re: The promo deal IS still on at Newark for USA buyers
Post by: skench on March 30, 2017, 10:52:47 am

Just a reminder that the $2080 promo package deal on the RTB2004 *is* still going on at Newark, but apparently they can only sell into the USA market.  They have a pricing mixup with their system though.  I exchanged some PMs today with a fellow buying one and Rich from R&S.  The website shows $2080 here

http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=rtb2004&categoryId=800000047008&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=rtb2004&categoryId=800000047008&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)

But when you put it in your cart the number may flip to the $7900 (or $8600 I just learned) list price for the package.  Or it may show the correct price in the cart and $8600 then show up in the email confirm.  The system is grabbing from a database that doesn't have the promo pricing now that the deal is over at the other two US distributors.  Rich says you have to call into Newark's sales department and talk to them to get it priced correctly, until they can get the database thing worked out.


I ordered one from Newark yesterday, and as predicted, the email confirmation came back today with a total of $7920 (no sales tax here).

After a bit of time on the phone with a confused Newark customer service rep, the order was cancelled/replaced and a confirmation came back with the correct price.
He stated that they had these in stock; shipping date is supposed to be tomorrow.

Hi Corax,

Can you confirm that this is the RTB2K-COM4 promo package because the description on the Newark page does not include all the extra options?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on March 30, 2017, 11:17:39 am
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Beware the PSU problems.
I'd take your opinion with a grain of salt, as your a siglent dealer.. Running down competition just is a bad bad look
Opinion ?
The evidence is in several threads
.

In two consecutive posts, you have made claims regarding Keysight quality without providing any references or facts. I agree with Mrpackethead that this is bad style, in particular given the fact that you are a dealer for a competing brand.

Even if you can give a link to some thread, that would be anecdotal evidence at best. But just claiming that some problem exists looks like an obvious attempt to spread FUD, and won't help your reputation.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 30, 2017, 11:18:48 am
Keysights looking more and more attractive every day.
Beware the PSU problems.
What PSU problems exactly?
These and others linked in the thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hosed-by-my-msox-3024a/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hosed-by-my-msox-3024a/)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on March 30, 2017, 11:23:08 am
These and others linked in the thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hosed-by-my-msox-3024a/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hosed-by-my-msox-3024a/)

The 2 you linked in are not PSU problems!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on March 30, 2017, 11:54:08 am
These and others linked in the thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hosed-by-my-msox-3024a/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hosed-by-my-msox-3024a/)

The 2 you linked in are not PSU problems!
True, my oversight, only the first one was related to PSU failure.  :palm:
 
As some might seem a little touchy about having some of their other problems pointed out I'll let you find them yourselves in the links provided.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rsjsouza on March 30, 2017, 12:02:59 pm
Regarding the percussive effect, please let me know if I am missing something, but I couldn't issue a trigBeatTM to my DS4014.

https://youtu.be/jPRe2YsNcRo
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 30, 2017, 12:37:42 pm
Try hitting harder with a larger object
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MJF on March 30, 2017, 01:08:20 pm
Please set input impedance from 50 Ohm to 1 MOhm and repeat...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kcbrown on March 30, 2017, 02:04:16 pm
As some might seem a little touchy about having some of their other problems pointed out I'll let you find them yourselves in the links provided.

"Go find the evidence supporting my claim yourself" isn't exactly the way to bolster your claims, even when you provide hints as to where the evidence can be found.   They're your claims, so it's on you to support them.  If there are messages which support your claim, you can provide links to them directly.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on March 30, 2017, 03:13:18 pm
OK. I'll bite..... but I cannot get my hands on one due to the distributor restrictions not selling outside of the US (and I thought this would be over).

Is there anybody here from the US who would be willing to order it for me? Preferrably a company so sales tax would not apply for me. I will keep care of the shipping (DHL pickup) and pay all other costs of course and will add some premium for your help. Any details with payment etc. should be discussed in private, so please PM me. Please only reputable forum members with a history.
Thanks!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fgrir on March 30, 2017, 03:20:30 pm
Is there anybody here from the US who would be willing to order it for me?

I would but all my money is tied up helping a nigerian prince at the moment  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on March 30, 2017, 03:21:44 pm
As some might seem a little touchy about having some of their other problems pointed out I'll let you find them yourselves in the links provided.

"Go find the evidence supporting my claim yourself" isn't exactly the way to bolster your claims, even when you provide hints as to where the evidence can be found.   They're your claims, so it's on you to support them.  If there are messages which support your claim, you can provide links to them directly.
Editing out the part of his message which provided links is REALLY sleazy behaviour.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rsjsouza on March 30, 2017, 03:37:53 pm
Please set input impedance from 50 Ohm to 1 MOhm and repeat...
I somehow had the impression he was using 50 \$\Omega\$ all around. I will retest later today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 30, 2017, 03:48:01 pm
Why bother ordering a device with such major design flaws? Check the recent video from Dave!

OK. I'll bite..... but I cannot get my hands on one due to the distributor restrictions not selling outside of the US (and I thought this would be over).

Is there anybody here from the US who would be willing to order it for me? Preferrably a company so sales tax would not apply for me. I will keep care of the shipping (DHL pickup) and pay all other costs of course and will add some premium for your help. Any details with payment etc. should be discussed in private, so please PM me. Please only reputable forum members with a history.
Thanks!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on March 30, 2017, 03:52:28 pm
Please set input impedance from 50 Ohm to 1 MOhm and repeat...
I somehow had the impression he was using 50 \$\Omega\$ all around. I will retest later today or tomorrow.
RTB2000 does not have 50 ohm input option
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JanJansen on March 30, 2017, 03:55:08 pm
First you set the settings, then you measure, you dont measure while you use the touch screen, or am i wrong ?
You can touch the screen a bit softer also, does the clicking switches also trigger the noise ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 30, 2017, 04:01:53 pm
Why bother ordering a device with such major design flaws? Check the recent video from Dave!
Because the US deal is still a fantastic deal, and unless you want to probe very low level signals with a high impedance probe while wacking the scope it's just not a problem in practice.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 30, 2017, 04:10:34 pm
Can someone summarize the US deal, in terms of pricing and features? When does it end?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: piranha32 on March 30, 2017, 04:18:51 pm
Can someone summarize the US deal, in terms of pricing and features? When does it end?

Fully loaded RTB2004 for $2080. Seems to be still available at Newark.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 30, 2017, 04:26:48 pm
First you set the settings, then you measure, you dont measure while you use the touch screen, or am i wrong ?
You can touch the screen a bit softer also, does the clicking switches also trigger the noise ?
It can be a problem if you look at a signal (zoom in, scroll, enable measurement) with the scope in run mode. You might create a trigger and erase the measurement you made. Basically the sensitivity to tapping forces you to use single trigger mode / switch between run & stop mode in cases where it shouldn't be really necessary.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bitwelder on March 30, 2017, 04:46:43 pm
Which other scopes? Given the amount of RTB2000 videos already out there doing the other scopes may be more informative.

Keysight 1000X, Siglent 1000X-E, and I haven't done the Hameg or the GW Instek either. That four scopes that come before the R&S.
Where's the new Rigol?  ;D
Title: Newark
Post by: agdr on March 30, 2017, 05:10:32 pm
Looks like the stock mix at Newark has changed a bit.  Lol, you have to love really large companies with multiple departments all responsible for little bits and pieces of things.  :)  (screen grab attached)

So it used to say something like 50 in stock available for shipment 3/30/17, which is today of course.  Now we have 19 available for immediate shipment, with 30 more able to ship 3/30/17 (today).  So 50 became 49 total?  Must be Corex' unit. :D  Going to be 48 in a minute, I'm going to buy yet another one of these things so I can actually get my hands on one, the others won't ship till May. 

And IF I can actually get my hands on one I'll do ci11's test.  Just bought a variable audio oscillator good for very low THD at 1Hz - 100KHz at 200uV.  I'm really really curious how this scope does with the low level audio signals.

I would 100% agree with a comment a few posts back, not nearly enough audio people involved in the design of scopes!  8)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 30, 2017, 05:15:12 pm
You made it: 18
Title: Re: Newark
Post by: ci11 on March 30, 2017, 05:20:42 pm

Just bought a variable audio oscillator good for very low THD at 1Hz - 100KHz at 200uV.


Wow - congratulations! Which audio oscillator did you get with them hubba hubba specs?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Petter on March 30, 2017, 06:14:24 pm
What happens if you measure the resonant frequency/frequencies?

An electrical input problem is much more of a showstopper than the still annoying mechanical intolerance of the unit.
Title: Re: The promo deal IS still on at Newark for USA buyers
Post by: corax on March 30, 2017, 06:25:36 pm

Hi Corax,

Can you confirm that this is the RTB2K-COM4 promo package because the description on the Newark page does not include all the extra options?

Yes, it's the RTB2K-COM4 package.  Here's a screenshot of the confirmation email I got back.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skench on March 30, 2017, 06:45:17 pm
Cheers Corax.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on March 30, 2017, 07:44:02 pm
You saved $5840.00 - gotta love that!
If there are some units available I hope forums users in US/Canada jump on them quick.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ElectronMan on March 30, 2017, 08:23:24 pm
It turns out that this bundle is cheaper than paying for the embedded app bundle for my 3000T series. So get a nice scope + decode options I need, or spend more for just the decode options. What to do, what to do...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kcbrown on March 30, 2017, 08:25:34 pm
As some might seem a little touchy about having some of their other problems pointed out I'll let you find them yourselves in the links provided.

"Go find the evidence supporting my claim yourself" isn't exactly the way to bolster your claims, even when you provide hints as to where the evidence can be found.   They're your claims, so it's on you to support them.  If there are messages which support your claim, you can provide links to them directly.
Editing out the part of his message which provided links is REALLY sleazy behaviour.

He provided a link to a thread, not links to individual messages.   A thread can contain all sorts of things (look at the one we're having this discussion in for one example).

I should have examined the thread before commenting.  It turns out to be a different one than the one I thought.  That's what I get for waking up too early in the morning.  :(

Sorry, Tautech.   My apologies.  Carry on! 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Myrv on March 30, 2017, 08:29:25 pm

It can be a problem if you look at a signal (zoom in, scroll, enable measurement) with the scope in run mode. You might create a trigger and erase the measurement you made. Basically the sensitivity to tapping forces you to use single trigger mode / switch between run & stop mode in cases where it shouldn't be really necessary.

Potentially this issue could be fixed in firmware (partially at least).  I can see two possibilities:

1) If the screen digitizer is sensitive enough (many are)  it could detect an imminent touch (before physical contact is made) and disable the trigger for the duration of the touch.

2) Alternatively they could implement a double buffer mode that stores the last triggered event momentarily and won't actually display it unless no touch is detected.  This would add some lag to the measurement but it would prevent accidental triggering when using the touch screen.

Either method would preferably be toggleable.  You would only need to enable it for high sensitivity measurements.  Now, whether R&S considers the problem big enough to implement such solutions is another question.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on March 30, 2017, 08:54:53 pm
Just got FedEx shipping notice for my scope from Testequity. It's already been picked up from their site, and should arrive at my house by Wednesday 4/5. Seems like kinda a long time to get from Moorpark CA to Minneapolis MN, but it's probably just FedEx ground.

*Brian
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 30, 2017, 09:00:01 pm
Just got FedEx shipping notice for my scope from Testequity. It's already been picked up from their site, and should arrive at my house by Wednesday 4/5. Seems like kinda a long time to get from Moorpark CA to Minneapolis MN, but it's probably just FedEx ground.

*Briani

Mind sharing your order date? I'm roughly 15 minute drive from them so likely take a couple days once they ship mine.  :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on March 30, 2017, 09:11:50 pm
Just got FedEx shipping notice for my scope from Testequity. It's already been picked up from their site, and should arrive at my house by Wednesday 4/5. Seems like kinda a long time to get from Moorpark CA to Minneapolis MN, but it's probably just FedEx ground.

*Briani

Mind sharing your order date? I'm roughly 15 minute drive from them so likely take a couple days once they ship mine.  :-//

Sales order date is 3/16. However, I actually placed my order at about 10:30 PM on the 15th after seeing Mike's 7:42 PM tweet. Was able to do it entirely from bed on the smart phone by moving some money around to my PayPal accounts without the wife ever knowing . . .
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 30, 2017, 09:29:22 pm
Interesting, my order date is 03/15/2017 and I did not get a shipping notification yet.
But to be fair the expected shipping date is tomorrow (03/31/2017) so let's see if they keep their promise.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 30, 2017, 09:30:03 pm
Just got FedEx shipping notice for my scope from Testequity. It's already been picked up from their site, and should arrive at my house by Wednesday 4/5. Seems like kinda a long time to get from Moorpark CA to Minneapolis MN, but it's probably just FedEx ground.

*Briani

Mind sharing your order date? I'm roughly 15 minute drive from them so likely take a couple days once they ship mine.  :-//

Sales order date is 3/16. However, I actually placed my order at about 10:30 PM on the 15th after seeing Mike's 7:42 PM tweet. Was able to do it entirely from bed on the smart phone by moving some money around to my PayPal accounts without the wife ever knowing . . .

Interesting, similar here. Ordered 15th around 5-6pm got a 16th order date. Maybe an hour or two earlier considering time zone differences. Knowing California I'll likely be a may/june ship date, haha.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Skagit on March 30, 2017, 09:34:07 pm
I'm in a similar boat. Ordered around 1:30pm on 15th, ship date of the 31st and no notifications yet. Haven't been charged yet either.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: oh2hyt on March 30, 2017, 09:39:14 pm
As has been said, the EU deal for 5500e + tax is again on Farnell (was missing few days) and also on Elfa now.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on March 31, 2017, 12:07:12 am
The EU deal doesn't seem to match the US deal at all.

How to get the US deal in Europe? :)

As has been said, the EU deal for 5500e + tax is again on Farnell (was missing few days) and also on Elfa now.

Can someone summarize the US deal, in terms of pricing and features? When does it end?

Fully loaded RTB2004 for $2080. Seems to be still available at Newark.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 31, 2017, 12:20:27 am
The EU deal doesn't seem to match the US deal at all.
How to get the US deal in Europe? :)
You can't ( as far as anyone has ascertained to date).
Only way is to use a reshipper that a US dealer doesn't know is a reshipper, and not-obviously-overseas contact details.

Does anyone have anything to report yet on reshippers ? I know someone in the UK who has only had one of his two attempts at US orders refused so far, but not shipped yet.
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: gslick on March 31, 2017, 12:22:37 am
It turns out that this bundle is cheaper than paying for the embedded app bundle for my 3000T series. So get a nice scope + decode options I need, or spend more for just the decode options. What to do, what to do...

Or if you want a 100Mbit network interface for an InfiniiVision 2000 and 3000 X-Series, consider paying $400 for a DSOXLAN module, or for $1600 more get a whole loaded RTB2004 with built-in 1Gbit network interface...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kkessler on March 31, 2017, 01:45:13 am
I'm in a similar boat. Ordered around 1:30pm on 15th, ship date of the 31st and no notifications yet. Haven't been charged yet either.

I have a 3/16 order date and a 4/28 ship date, so don't complain.  I thinking about canceling and ordering from Newark, if there would be some confirmation that it is the same deal.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 31, 2017, 02:46:08 am
Just got shipping info from testequity. Shipped today and should be delivered tomorrow. Here's hoping.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rsjsouza on March 31, 2017, 03:14:18 am
Well, second attempt to bang the crap out of my DS4014... :)
https://youtu.be/HWTdQnVK8nY
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on March 31, 2017, 03:20:40 am
FYI: I also got the shipping notice. Ordered on 3/15/17, shipped 3/30/17 and should be delivered to Orlando, FL on 4/5/17.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Skagit on March 31, 2017, 03:22:50 am
Oh I'm not complaining, just adding my data point to the pile.

Got a shipping notification an hour ago for a Monday delivery date, unfortunately I'll be gone camping. #LifeIsHard  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: luisprata on March 31, 2017, 03:28:43 am
Para os brasileiros do forum...

DSO-X 2004 results...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzqNbw3eBKo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzqNbw3eBKo)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on March 31, 2017, 05:20:24 am
Just got FedEx shipping notice for my scope from Testequity. It's already been picked up from their site, and should arrive at my house by Wednesday 4/5. Seems like kinda a long time to get from Moorpark CA to Minneapolis MN, but it's probably just FedEx ground.

Jealous.....   still don't have my date from Testequity. 
Yeah I think I also got next-day order date from ordering....  as this is my first purchase from it, seems like the online ordering is not 100% .. its like it got processed to paper orders at later time, since I got like a whole confirmation and new customer packet stuff.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 31, 2017, 08:51:02 am
If you are really interested in buying it then get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.

Yeah, I'll just pop by the local office and ask if I can have one to play with for a couple of months.

(seriously, in what part of the world does that work?)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 31, 2017, 09:25:47 am
Actually in my case (capital city area) Keysight's main distributor Testhouse Nordic is more than willing to come and hep me choose the right instrument and even send someone around to demo it, but you also need to have sincere buying intentions. I think a day or a couple of days loaning is doable but it sure is easier if you're a company who is asking for it.

You may sometimes have to wait until a unit is available but they certainly don't show you the door.

I don't know if they would do it for a bottom range scope though.

But yeah, I imagine it's pretty difficult if you don't live near a distributor.

As for the RTB2004, they simply don't have it available yet.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 31, 2017, 09:29:21 am
If you are really interested in buying it then get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.

Yeah, I'll just pop by the local office and ask if I can have one to play with for a couple of months.

(seriously, in what part of the world does that work?)
Ofcourse you can't have it for a couple of months but a couple of weeks shouldn't be a problem (if it is: walk away). OTOH the last time I got a Lecroy quoted the payment term was 90 days or return it. You simply cannot be expected to spend several $k blindly.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 31, 2017, 12:30:02 pm

It can be a problem if you look at a signal (zoom in, scroll, enable measurement) with the scope in run mode. You might create a trigger and erase the measurement you made. Basically the sensitivity to tapping forces you to use single trigger mode / switch between run & stop mode in cases where it shouldn't be really necessary.

Potentially this issue could be fixed in firmware (partially at least).  I can see two possibilities:

1) If the screen digitizer is sensitive enough (many are)  it could detect an imminent touch (before physical contact is made) and disable the trigger for the duration of the touch.

2) Alternatively they could implement a double buffer mode that stores the last triggered event momentarily and won't actually display it unless no touch is detected.  This would add some lag to the measurement but it would prevent accidental triggering when using the touch screen.

Either method would preferably be toggleable.  You would only need to enable it for high sensitivity measurements.  Now, whether R&S considers the problem big enough to implement such solutions is another question.


I think Dave got a broken device ...

1) this is weird ... you can´t bypass microphonics by disabling the trigger while you´re touching. This would lead to permanent stopping of acquisition when you e.g.
just want to add a measurement. For setting scales or position its absolutely OK to stop the acquisition, rescale previous ACQs and restart after setting the hardware.
But for everything else doing the same?? This will lead to a chopped up UI feeling and makes the scope feels more sluggish.

2) sounds like a segmented mode with discarding all acquisitions done while touch was detected ...   :bullshit:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KrzysztofB on March 31, 2017, 02:15:51 pm
Tried to get hit-a-trigger on Tektronix DPO3034. Well, was possible, but no one is treating scope that bad. Gentle taps, not a chance.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Myrv on March 31, 2017, 02:54:23 pm

I think Dave got a broken device ...

Possibly. His seems to be a little more sensitive than what Mike is reporting.  Time will tell I guess.


1) this is weird ... you can´t bypass microphonics by disabling the trigger while you´re touching. This would lead to permanent stopping of acquisition when you e.g.
just want to add a measurement. For setting scales or position its absolutely OK to stop the acquisition, rescale previous ACQs and restart after setting the hardware.
But for everything else doing the same?? This will lead to a chopped up UI feeling and makes the scope feels more sluggish.

I didn't say it would bypass microphonics.  I was replying to nctnico who noted this effect could cause inadvertent triggering while examining a trace.  I was just noting it is conceivable a fix for this could be implemented in software by trying to disable triggering during a touch event (basically an auto run/stop on touch).   It would be clunky for for sure (and possibly impossible depending on the digitizer) and definitely not something you would want to be running all the time but it could be a way to mitigate the problem without having to do a complete hardware re-design.  (You really could just do it manually by hitting the run/stop  yourself before using the touch screen but that would be even more annoying IMHO)

2) sounds like a segmented mode with discarding all acquisitions done while touch was detected ...   :bullshit:

Yes, essentially that would be it.    Being able to correlate touch events with segmented memory shouldn't be too hard (although I admit it may induce unacceptable amounts of lag) . And yes, it could lead to a sparse history but I'm not sure that would be a huge issue (I'm sure somebody will correct me on this...).    Of course it would be need to be a configurable mode as well.  And I was just noting this is a possible software solution (bandaid) to a possible hardware issue.

I guess what it comes done to is how often are you going to be tapping on the screen and wanting to use the data collected at that exact moment . Generally I think you would use the screen to set something up then you take the measurement (so spurious microphonic induced signals during screen taping aren't the end of the world).  One exception to this I can think of is setting trigger levels. Doing that on the screen while generating spurious noise would indeed be a royal pain. There is a separate trigger level knob though so that should suffice.  I guess doing persistence measurements could be problematic as well (but again could be handled by option 2 above).  I'm sure there are others.





Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: slurry on March 31, 2017, 03:04:57 pm
I managed to fiddle around with a RTB2004 today, i did not have a chance to tap on it before it hanged and presented some garble on the display  :palm:
..but it's an early firmware, R&S customers are supposed to just sit down and patiently wait for a stable FW  :popcorn:

After a reboot i was able to enjoy the scope, the screen makes it a joy to use, pinch, swipe and select functions, pure fun!

The screenshot are (default) in BMP and due to the resolution the size is 3091kB on the USB-stick, also the savetime is a few seconds, due to the size of course.
(attached pictures are saved in JPG but still 1280x824 24bit)

(http://iloapp.qrg.se/data/_gallery/public/0/149097253519317900_resized.jpg)

(http://iloapp.qrg.se/data/_gallery/public/0/149097253568806400_resized.jpg)

(http://iloapp.qrg.se/data/_gallery/public/0/149097253546939100_resized.jpg)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 31, 2017, 03:17:34 pm
I managed to fiddle around with a RTB2004 today, i did not have a chance to tap on it before it hanged and presented some garble on the display  :palm:
..but it's an early firmware, R&S customers are supposed to just sit down and patiently wait for a stable FW  :popcorn:
Apart from the minor bugs I found & mentioned in the video, and the low-speed update thing Dave found, I've only seen one 'crashy' type issue, where the touchscreen stopped working and needed a powercycle to restore. This was very soon after I got it and wasn't at all familiar with it.  I've been using it as my main scope for a few days now & haven't seen anything else yet. 
Considering the amount of stuff in this scope, I think they're doing pretty well bug-wise. What's more important is how the deal with issues - they acknowledged most of my bugs and suggestions pretty much straight away, though I wouldn't be surprised if they hold off a little before doing an update until there are a few more scopes out there to shake out any more initial bugs.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 31, 2017, 03:20:46 pm
Cool where did you find a unit? Or are you a happy receiver of one of the first units? Still I'm waiting for mine: due next week
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 31, 2017, 04:02:24 pm
If you are really interested in buying it then get one on loan and do your own tests to see if it fits your needs.

Yeah, I'll just pop by the local office and ask if I can have one to play with for a couple of months.

(seriously, in what part of the world does that work?)
Ofcourse you can't have it for a couple of months but a couple of weeks shouldn't be a problem (if it is: walk away). OTOH the last time I got a Lecroy quoted the payment term was 90 days or return it. You simply cannot be expected to spend several $k blindly.

Oh, I see. The 'pay for it then take it back' type of "loan".  :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 31, 2017, 04:05:14 pm
You are reading it wrong: payment after 90 days or return means you can evaluate it for 90 days before paying  :palm:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: slurry on March 31, 2017, 04:20:15 pm
Be aware that when, and if, you buy a ex-DEMO unit it will have a K0 demo option installed which will have been expired.


I forgot, there is some interesting TV-triggers not seen in older scopes..  ^-^

(http://iloapp.qrg.se/data/_gallery/public/0/149097696236264400_resized.jpg)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kcbrown on March 31, 2017, 04:22:18 pm
You are reading it wrong: payment after 90 days or return means you can evaluate it for 90 days before paying  :palm:

That's actually quite interesting.  Do all of the major manufacturers do that?   More to the point, as relates to this thread, does R&S do that?

I'm skeptical, but not to the point of closed-mindedness...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: slurry on March 31, 2017, 04:31:37 pm
Most brands local sales representatives can arrange to loan you a DEMO-unit and usually you sign a contract for, say, two weeks, then you will have to return the unit otherwise they will send you an invoice.

No brand will loan a unit to a random guy, you have to represent a company or just happen to have a popular Youtube-channel  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on March 31, 2017, 04:38:21 pm
We've had trouble getting loaners because they only have so many DEMO units available, and they always seem to be out at other companies being 'demoed'. (I'll admit that I'm guilty of requesting a demo unit for a piece of equipment I knew I only needed for a couple of days rather than pay to rent it.) My guess is that if you borrow expensive tools often and never buy anything, they'll stop loaning stuff to you.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 31, 2017, 04:40:44 pm
@slurry: *.bmp only? I skimmed the manual and the online help - any way to select the format to save in (e.g. *.png) ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 31, 2017, 05:11:17 pm
@Neganur at second 38 of this video
www.rohde-schwarz.com/uk/products/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/rtb2000videos/rtb2000-import-and-export-of-data-and-settings-via-usb_231068 (http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/uk/products/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/rtb2000videos/rtb2000-import-and-export-of-data-and-settings-via-usb_231068)
It looks like there is PNG at least via USB.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: slurry on March 31, 2017, 05:12:12 pm
The good thing is that you dont get any compression of your screenshots ;D
I dont have the unit on hand so i cant check which formats that are available but as i recall the predecessor HMO-series did have .png so this one should have at least .png but .tiff would be slightly too much to ask for  ^-^

I'm not sure if the plan is to incorporate RTB in the R&S instrument view software,
that would be a good thing, handling screenshots, upload and modify masktests, user profiles, make reports and stuff like that.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on March 31, 2017, 05:14:57 pm
We've had trouble getting loaners because they only have so many DEMO units available, and they always seem to be out at other companies being 'demoed'.

That's what they tell you, sure.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 31, 2017, 05:15:04 pm
@slurry: *.bmp only? I skimmed the manual and the online help - any way to select the format to save in (e.g. *.png) ?

... yes it has png as well as bmp on the regular screenshot
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on March 31, 2017, 05:19:01 pm
What does this instrument view software do?
If the unit holds what the video I just posted ( 4 posts up) promises, it's one of the coolest interfaces I've ever seen on a scope. Also the Webinterface Mike had looked really neat.

( It's like counting down for Christmas)

Link again as new page: www.rohde-schwarz.com/uk/products/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/rtb2000videos/rtb2000-import-and-export-of-data-and-settings-via-usb_231068 (http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/uk/products/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/rtb2000videos/rtb2000-import-and-export-of-data-and-settings-via-usb_231068)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 31, 2017, 06:03:20 pm
@slurry: *.bmp only? I skimmed the manual and the online help - any way to select the format to save in (e.g. *.png) ?
... yes it has png as well as bmp on the regular screenshot
And PNG can use lossless compression so it is the perfect image format for test equipment screendumps.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on March 31, 2017, 06:10:19 pm
Hah! And I had referred to exactly that USB video while talking about the data transfer features...
Good catch, I completely missed that there is png and bmp shown in the folder.
Ty!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: slurry on March 31, 2017, 08:05:35 pm
What does this instrument view software do?
If the unit holds what the video I just posted ( 4 posts up) promises, it's one of the coolest interfaces I've ever seen on a scope. Also the Webinterface Mike had looked really neat.

( It's like counting down for Christmas)

Link again as new page: www.rohde-schwarz.com/uk/products/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/rtb2000videos/rtb2000-import-and-export-of-data-and-settings-via-usb_231068 (http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/uk/products/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/rtb2000videos/rtb2000-import-and-export-of-data-and-settings-via-usb_231068)

Oh, i did'nt know that there was a special SW for RTB2000!


Actually i should not have brought up the Instrument view software in this thread, it's more confusing than good maybe.

Instrument view is intended for instruments like FSH, ZVH, FPH spectrumrider which a collegue of mine very quickly renamed the rectumrider  ::)
the SW also should work with the new ZPH, cablerider (i think my collegue have to meet the guy that came up with that name..)

Using the SW you can manage and download/upload screenshots, transducers, CISPR limit lines, spectrum masks and so forth, there is also a tool for generating measureement reports that in my opinion looks quite good.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KE5FX on March 31, 2017, 08:57:56 pm
(http://www.ke5fx.com/jules.jpg)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on April 01, 2017, 12:33:30 am
While comparing Rigol's arb gen specs to their standalone genrators, I noticed in the RTB datasheet the following:

For sine, pulse, ramp etc:
14 bit, Sample rate 250 Msample/s

but the arbitrary mode:
sample rate max. 10 Msample/s
memory depth 16 kpoints

err, is that a typo...?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 01, 2017, 12:41:17 am
While comparing Rigol's arb gen specs to their standalone genrators, I noticed in the RTB datasheet the following:

For sine, pulse, ramp etc:
14 bit, Sample rate 250 Msample/s

but the arbitrary mode:
sample rate max. 10 Msample/s
memory depth 16 kpoints

err, is that a typo...?
May not be - could be they generate the fixed waveforms in hardware. There are 2 DACs.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 01, 2017, 02:40:23 am
I was about to order an SDS2304X when I saw this. I'm surprised at the lack of 50Ohm input, seemingly small capture buffer, and comparatively slow wf/s, though I don't think the rated 50K/s is an issue. To me there were other pluses that out weigh the minuses so I went ahead and ordered the promo package, another big plus. I expect to go through a few FW updates before things are really hashed out, hopefully no big HW issues to be found. It will be fun to put it through its paces.

Joel
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on April 01, 2017, 03:09:29 am
@ Joel:  did you get a shipping time estimate? (guessing you ordered at Newark's)

actually, heh: http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/?rrec=true (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/?rrec=true)
doesn't list out of stock anymore. What the hell...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on April 01, 2017, 03:27:21 am
actually, heh: http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/?rrec=true (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/?rrec=true)
doesn't list out of stock anymore. What the hell...

Maybe people changing their minds, or that many people ordering from outside the US and being dropped due to the restrictions R&S puts on its distributors. 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 01, 2017, 03:46:40 am
I ordered after hours and did not get a shipping estimate. Because they say in stock, I
I expect it should go out Saturday or Monday. My experience with Newark is good.

Just looked at TE and they say out of stock for me.

Joel

actually, heh: http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/?rrec=true (http://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/?rrec=true)
doesn't list out of stock anymore. What the hell...

Maybe people changing their minds, or that many people ordering from outside the US and being dropped due to the restrictions R&S puts on its distributors.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on April 01, 2017, 07:10:29 am
After 8 hours run time I just had my first crash trying to save a 312mb waveform to sd card. Not incredibly surprised since it wasn't all that happy about the card and adapter, didn't want to recognize it, but still seems to be a bug. Connected to a UPS also. Also, the 20m file I saved just before worked fine. All the USB capture stuff works pretty well/transparently.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Karel on April 01, 2017, 07:49:41 am
Does anybody know which operating system it uses?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on April 01, 2017, 08:07:03 am
Does anybody know which operating system it uses?

FreeRTOS
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on April 01, 2017, 08:11:39 am
Just looked at TE and they say out of stock for me.
Yep, it says (in the text) on the Tequipment page: "PROMOTIONAL PACKAGE IS NOW SOLD OUT"
But Newark still has 16 on stock but it is a challenge to buy one, if you are not from the US. Using a reshipper will not work, they will cancel your order.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on April 01, 2017, 10:24:27 am
Net result is many people now deeply dislike R&S.  i hope the marketing stunt was worth it.

Just looked at TE and they say out of stock for me.
Yep, it says (in the text) on the Tequipment page: "PROMOTIONAL PACKAGE IS NOW SOLD OUT"
But Newark still has 16 on stock but it is a challenge to buy one, if you are not from the US. Using a reshipper will not work, they will cancel your order.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on April 01, 2017, 10:34:50 am
Just looked at TE and they say out of stock for me.
Yep, it says (in the text) on the Tequipment page: "PROMOTIONAL PACKAGE IS NOW SOLD OUT"
But Newark still has 16 on stock but it is a challenge to buy one, if you are not from the US. Using a reshipper will not work, they will cancel your order.

Idk! have you clicked my link? It does not say out of stock anywhere.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on April 01, 2017, 10:47:22 am
How do you know, or how did you find out?

Does anybody know which operating system it uses?

FreeRTOS
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 01, 2017, 10:50:17 am
How do you know, or how did you find out?

Does anybody know which operating system it uses?

FreeRTOS
It's mentioned in their open-source acknowledgement :
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_osa/RTB_OpenSourceAcknowledgment_en_01.pdf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on April 01, 2017, 11:16:50 am
Seems German stores have stock now*: RTB2K-COM4 (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2034MSO-COM-Oszilloskop.htm)

7.190,00 EUR excl. VAT lol  :palm:

*: that's only for the COM4 package, all other models are still 'coming soon'
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on April 01, 2017, 11:29:51 am
Seems German stores have stock now*: RTB2K-COM4 (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2034MSO-COM-Oszilloskop.htm)

7.190,00 EUR excl. VAT lol  :palm:

*: that's only for the COM4 package, all other models are still 'coming soon'

Also available in Norway now, at €9107 incl. VAT, it has a 24% discount promo though, so only €6922 incl. VAT!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 01, 2017, 12:50:25 pm
When you go to the page, try refreshing your browser, might be looking at an old cached version. I did go to it by clicking on your link.

Just looked at TE and they say out of stock for me.
Yep, it says (in the text) on the Tequipment page: "PROMOTIONAL PACKAGE IS NOW SOLD OUT"
But Newark still has 16 on stock but it is a challenge to buy one, if you are not from the US. Using a reshipper will not work, they will cancel your order.

Idk! have you clicked my link? It does not say out of stock anywhere.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 01, 2017, 12:54:58 pm
Maybe, flip side is early adopters seem to be beta testers, looks like many issues are being found. We also run the risk of finding a HW bug that requires a spin. As far as other regions, It might be the regions themselves that decided to offer a promo or not.


Net result is many people now deeply dislike R&S.  i hope the marketing stunt was worth it.

Just looked at TE and they say out of stock for me.
Yep, it says (in the text) on the Tequipment page: "PROMOTIONAL PACKAGE IS NOW SOLD OUT"
But Newark still has 16 on stock but it is a challenge to buy one, if you are not from the US. Using a reshipper will not work, they will cancel your order.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on April 01, 2017, 01:08:01 pm
When you go to the page, try refreshing your browser, might be looking at an old cached version. I did go to it by clicking on your link.

Odd. Cleared cache, deleted browser history, tried on the phone too with same result.

Edit: added phone screenshot.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 01, 2017, 01:08:15 pm
Net result is many people now deeply dislike R&S.  i hope the marketing stunt was worth it.
As far as other regions, It might be the regions themselves that decided to offer a promo or not.
I doubt it. Sellers want to sell and they don't care where they have to send it so the limits on the regions are definitaly dictated by R&S. For example: R&S has there own webshops to sell direct so they don't have to listen to the opinions of distributors. They could have offered the launch deal themselves in Europe.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on April 01, 2017, 01:12:43 pm
They could have offered the launch deal themselves in Europe.

That would really piss off the distributors...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 01, 2017, 01:16:09 pm
They could have offered the launch deal themselves in Europe.
That would really piss off the distributors...
Which distributors? Check the R&S website and you'll see R&S does their own distribution in Europe.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on April 01, 2017, 01:35:15 pm
R&S appears to be caught in a familiar quagmire that frustrates many traditional manufacturers as they do promo in new markets.

It is very likely that there are distributors AND dealers agreements in place that R&S has signed and cannot/will not circumvent. Many of these agreements are not only a drive to get more business but sometimes required by local anti-trust laws, even if R&S is the official "distributor". The key is that most local laws favor the seller setting the price, not the manufacturer whose customer is actually the distributor but not the end-user.

The price and promotional content discrepancy in various geographies show the growing pains of R&S getting into highly competitive market segments and their lack of preparedness to deal with its issues. Just having an attractive offering is only half the battle. only a highly coordinated and well-negotiated launch where everyone in the food chain gets the right amount of cash into their pockets will success then possibly follow.

Optimizing these realities require really seasoned and effective leadership at the helm.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 01, 2017, 01:54:19 pm
Just looked up freeRTOS, looks interesting. I have a couple of roundtuit projects it might be interesting to try on.

How do you know, or how did you find out?

Does anybody know which operating system it uses?

FreeRTOS
It's mentioned in their open-source acknowledgement :
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_osa/RTB_OpenSourceAcknowledgment_en_01.pdf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on April 01, 2017, 02:43:46 pm
When you go to the page, try refreshing your browser, might be looking at an old cached version. I did go to it by clicking on your link.

Odd. Cleared cache, deleted browser history, tried on the phone too with same result.

Edit: added phone screenshot.
Don't look into your cart! Look at the product page (the link you added) - see pic attached. Though you can still put the item in your cart which does not make sense.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: lem_ix on April 01, 2017, 02:47:25 pm
Options price is downright ridiculous. Instek gds-2072e is just a tad more than any one of those 3 serial decode options they sell.... i2c + spi separate from uart... nice .. Was actually interested in this  :palm:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on April 01, 2017, 03:01:01 pm
Looks like the promo is over at Newark. RTB2K-COM4 showing full retail price now, even with the 16 remaining in stock.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on April 01, 2017, 03:10:27 pm
Frequency analysis mode: Due to the high-performance FFT functionality of the R&S®RTB2000 oscilloscopes, signals can be analyzed with up to 128 kpoints.

Does the FFT really only use 128 kpoints? That's very low!

Note that the new Siglent SDS1000X-E series (based on Xilinx Zynq-7000 SoC architecture) uses 1Mpoints for FFT!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: WattSekunde on April 01, 2017, 03:18:37 pm
They could have offered the launch deal themselves in Europe.
That would really piss off the distributors...
Which distributors? Check the R&S website and you'll see R&S does their own distribution in Europe.

In Europe R&S has an authorized distributors network [Datatec - Farnell - a.m.o. ... ] - and they also offer direct sales from their local sales organisation.
I prefer to buy directly from R&S to avoid that the unit has been catching dust in a werehouse and calibration period has almost expired - I am talking in general terms - had this once with LeCroy and
that will never overcome me a second time.
Dealing directly with R&S gives me also the opportunity to ask a loan unit for evaluation or sometimes one can buy these loan units with a nice discount.
Dealing directly with R&S gives me more satisfaction.


Yabba Dabba Doo !

Flinstone
55 Cobblestone Road
Bedrock

But they don't sell to a private person. You need a VAT number (Umsatzsteuer-Identifikationsnummer).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on April 01, 2017, 03:41:48 pm
Don't look into your cart! Look at the product page (the link you added) - see pic attached. Though you can still put the item in your cart which does not make sense.

What do you want me to say? Just because it looks like this for you does not mean that what I say is wrong. And the reason I placed it in the cart is to see if the cart software is working properly (should not allow me to place product that is sold out).

And if I now link the product page screenshot you will claim that I have not refreshed my page or cleared my cache. I find this a bit annoying, almost like IT support saying there is no problem (because their 'report an error' webpage form is malfunctioning).

Perhaps there is some other issue on their web server that serves old pages to phones or something, but I am not stupid - I get this page and it shows it available...(regardless of it in reality is not available if you would call them)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: deephaven on April 01, 2017, 03:48:10 pm
Just for fun, I tried going to the TE website for the very first time just now and it showed the heavily discounted price and it allowed me to put it in the cart, complete with a free tool set  :)
No cache or phones were used!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on April 01, 2017, 04:03:08 pm
Just for fun, I tried going to the TE website for the very first time just now and it showed the heavily discounted price and it allowed me to put it in the cart, complete with a free tool set  :)
No cache or phones were used!

Newark. 16 units on stock for 7920USD ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 01, 2017, 04:25:19 pm
Seems the price will fluctuate a bit before it settles down. The full bundle for $2080 seems to be a very good deal. I don't see this scope being a good value near the 8K fully loaded price. Seems there are too many other good options out there to make the normal $2080 for the 70MHz base unit not interesting. I'm anxious to get mine and see how it goes.

I hope the pricing does settle out at a reasonable price point or those of us that have them might find ourselves orphaned.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 01, 2017, 05:54:30 pm
I don't know anything about this place but they still show the promo price.

http://www.techedu.com/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes/Rohde-&-Schwarz-RTB2K-COM4/ (http://www.techedu.com/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes/Rohde-&-Schwarz-RTB2K-COM4/)
Title: Newark off, TE back on!
Post by: agdr on April 01, 2017, 05:54:52 pm
Sure enough, as reported, it looks like the deal at Newark may be off but the deal at Tequipment might be back on as of 4/1/17. 

I'll take a guess at what is going on.  I've heard rumors that Tequipment has had several cancellations.  Could be that that by whatever rules are in place they are being allowed to resell the cancellations.  Newark never did seem to be very excited about the promo, given their late sales entry and complete lack of sales info about the bundle.  Newark is probably quite happy to be able to list the scope bundles at full price/profit and be done with the promo.

The interesting thing here is that if Tequipment is being allowed to resell cancellations then Test Equity may have permission too.  And I believe Test Equity has a Canadian operation.  The folks in Canada might want to check into the currest sales-to-Canada situation by phone with Tequipment and Test Equity.  Worst that can happen is another "no"! 

It is also possible the list price showing at Newark is just part of their database issues too.  Would be worth calling and checking to be sure before giving up on them.

Good luck and happy scope hunting!  ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 01, 2017, 06:35:38 pm
The whole promo thing has been something of a shambles... hopefully R&S will learn from it.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ruairi on April 01, 2017, 07:36:28 pm
TEquipment did have several cancelations and had 3 units available at the promo price on Thursday.  I know a guy who snagged one  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pm.llb on April 01, 2017, 07:40:05 pm
Seems the price will fluctuate a bit before it settles down. The full bundle for $2080 seems to be a very good deal. I don't see this scope being a good value near the 8K fully loaded price. Seems there are too many other good options out there to make the normal $2080 for the 70MHz base unit not interesting. I'm anxious to get mine and see how it goes.

I hope the pricing does settle out at a reasonable price point or those of us that have them might find ourselves orphaned.

Let me be straight:
R&S bundle for ~2K - Ok.Where to buy it ( in/to Europe)?
For 8K ? No way. I will rather buy :

http://www.siglent.eu/sds2304x.html (http://www.siglent.eu/sds2304x.html)
+
http://www.siglent.eu/catalog/product/view/id/1087/s/spl2016/category/146/ (http://www.siglent.eu/catalog/product/view/id/1087/s/spl2016/category/146/)
~2k$ and It's availabe without region limitations.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pascal_sweden on April 01, 2017, 09:22:19 pm
R&S should have used capacitors from Murata for reduced microphonics:

https://books.google.no/books?id=y0kGRzbh-owC&pg=PA43&lpg=PA43&dq=microphonics+murata&source=bl&ots=-R_bm7FLG2&sig=zc2FjzQ2JzfsqAG_ZueYseqFH6s&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiutsCil4TTAhWqK5oKHUq7AaIQ6AEIITAB#v=onepage&q=microphonics%20murata&f=false (https://books.google.no/books?id=y0kGRzbh-owC&pg=PA43&lpg=PA43&dq=microphonics+murata&source=bl&ots=-R_bm7FLG2&sig=zc2FjzQ2JzfsqAG_ZueYseqFH6s&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiutsCil4TTAhWqK5oKHUq7AaIQ6AEIITAB#v=onepage&q=microphonics%20murata&f=false)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on April 02, 2017, 01:55:29 am
This whole topic reads like a Monty Python...

This scope, fully unlocked, is a steal for 2000€, even for 3000€.  For 7000-8000€ it is not.
I personally am fed up by marketing tricks. It doesn't matter if 200 people got it for 2000€.. Keysight is GIVING AWAY that many scopes for free... 
But it doesn't mean anything to me because I'm not gonna get it..  Nor I will get R&S.. With Keysight at least there is reason (local laws) why not everybody can get it.
With R&S it is just stupid marketing games..

This bombastic and sensationalistic title would be true if they were selling them at that kind of price for real...

To me this scope is a failure at market positioning. If it were 2000-3000€ i would get it instead of second tier vendors. R&S is legendary company with great track record. Getting it at a competitive price instead of Rigol or such would be obvious choice... But at prices they are asking, they are saying their economy, entry level scope costs as much as some pro level equipment..

And 4 times as much as chinese brands that are getting better as we speak..

No, sorry, no killer scope, and certainly not a game changer.. It is just a nice scope from a R&S for way too much money.. That is actually old story with R&S and their former Hameg line..

It's a shame, because I like it..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on April 02, 2017, 02:38:34 am
Yeah,  I'm not waiting for things to 'settle' down.. tommorrow i'm ordering a Keysight 3000T..   And as a bonus i get a 1000x for free!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on April 02, 2017, 03:06:30 am
Yeah,  I'm not waiting for things to 'settle' down.. tommorrow i'm ordering a Keysight 3000T..   And as a bonus i get a 1000x for free!

That was my first choice but even if I'd paid full price for R&S the equivalent 3000t would cost over 50% more. For what I'm doing with it the sample rate and wfms/s cost way too much. I'm a sucker for big high res screens too, so if they were the same price I probably would have picked R&S anyway. 3000T will probably be my next one.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on April 02, 2017, 04:21:22 am
That was my first choice but even if I'd paid full price for R&S the equivalent 3000t would cost over 50% more. For what I'm doing with it the sample rate and wfms/s cost way too much. I'm a sucker for big high res screens too, so if they were the same price I probably would have picked R&S anyway. 3000T will probably be my next one.

That is the way I'm looking at it.  I don't need more than 300MHz for what i do so the extra sample rate would be wasted.  But the price difference is massive even at full R&S list and I would be stuck with a 8 inch screen.  The 3000T/4000T series is getting long in the tooth itself.  I figure in a couple of years when it becomes time for the "next one" Keysight - and everyone else - will have their next generation of products out.  With this competition from R&S I'm hoping that will mean adopting a 10 bit (12 bit?) ADC and much lower noise front end, even better than the R&S.  And with all this price competition from the lower cost Rigol/Siglent units seems like Keysight just can't maintain these prices long term.  Seems that they will have to come down at least 20%-30% to stay competitive over the next few years.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: encryptededdy on April 02, 2017, 04:22:50 am
Honest question: Why do scopes all seem to have such crap screens? The RTB2000 seems to have a nice screen at 1280x800, but most other scopes have horribly low res screens: even the Keysight 3000T is only 800x480! It seems like you have to go to those high-end Windows-based scopes to get anything above 1024x768. Why?

Even if the waveform doesn't take advantage of the higher resolution, the menus, serial decode etc. benefit greatly from the higher resolution as demonstrated in Mike's review of the RTB2000.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: edavid on April 02, 2017, 05:03:40 am
I don't know anything about this place but they still show the promo price.

http://www.techedu.com/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes/Rohde-&-Schwarz-RTB2K-COM4/ (http://www.techedu.com/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes/Rohde-&-Schwarz-RTB2K-COM4/)

That site is also TEquipment.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 02, 2017, 07:21:10 am
... even the Keysight 3000T is only 800x480!...


And this is just the  screen size. I estimate pure waveform area is about 640x400px. This is what the former Hameg scopes nearly had.

dspl. resolution vs. max. usable waveform area   1)

800x480640x40067%  on Keysight 1000x
800x480600x400  62,5% on Keysight 2000 Class
800x480640x40067% on Keysight 3000 Class
800x600640x48064% on Keysight 4000 Class
640x480600x40078% on (all) Hameg HMO scopes
1280x7681200x650  79% on RTB2000
800x480700x40073% on Rigol DS2000
800x480700x40073% on Rigol DS4000
480x234~450x20080% on Tek MSO 2000

Competing against the 2000 classes the RTB´s utilization of the screen is pretty good.
Sure ...  Tek seems to have an equivalant utilization of the screen in this class, but turning on measurement turns the scope into a peephole.

And that what a scope is build for - MEASUREMENTS

1) taken from screenshots, correct me if i´m wrong
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Deridex on April 02, 2017, 07:30:10 am
so after reading some posts here my conclusion of the scope is:
It would be a nice scope if the "whack-a-scope-issue" wouldn't be so bad. I wonder what R&S will do about it
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on April 02, 2017, 07:55:27 am
so after reading some posts here my conclusion of the scope is:
It would be a nice scope if the "whack-a-scope-issue" wouldn't be so bad. I wonder what R&S will do about it

I tried it on my own earlier and it wasn't much of an issue since it had to be fairly deliberate.  Had a motor going on the same surface and didn't see anything. Actually needed to hit the unit hard enough it probably wouldn't be accidental. Obviously tapping the BNC directly caused it but that is definitely something you just shouldn't do. I don't think they'll do anything so if it's a deal breaker for someone just don't buy it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: HighVoltage on April 02, 2017, 08:10:15 am
It would be a nice scope if the "whack-a-scope-issue" wouldn't be so bad. I wonder what R&S will do about it

I tried this "whack" on my Agilent MSO7104B and my MSOX6004A
Both have the same issue, may be not as severe as the R&S RTB but nevertheless it is there.
So, I would not worry too much about this.
And who really whack's their scope during measurements and when probes are installed?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on April 02, 2017, 08:47:29 am
so after reading some posts here my conclusion of the scope is:
It would be a nice scope if the "whack-a-scope-issue" wouldn't be so bad. I wonder what R&S will do about it

A work around is to use a mouse to operate the scope so you are not touching it and introducing artifacts into the measurements otherwise as Dave has pointed out this limitation which effects most scopes to some degree or another is worse for the R&S scope because of the touch screen for normal use !! I'm not feeling so bad for missing out on the promotion in the US ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on April 02, 2017, 09:10:52 am
This is what we call abuse. Trigger set to 100uV. Quite possibly a terrible angle because I'm just in boxers and the screen is reflective(!). This is also not in a lab environment because it's late and I'm done working for the day. If you treat your scope like this regularly you've got bigger problems than a shock affecting your measurements. Shouldn't matter but mains is 122V right now. The BNC's however respond very quickly when there is no probe attached and the channel is turned on.

https://youtu.be/mXDW3ZXGHbQ
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: jjoonathan on April 02, 2017, 09:16:37 am
And who really whack's their scope during measurements and when probes are installed?
Whacks are the demo, not the threat. Imagine spending hours tracking down a tone in the noise floor of your circuit only to find that it was actually fan whine acoustically coupling into your scope's front end  :--
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on April 02, 2017, 09:33:03 am
Honest question: Why do scopes all seem to have such crap screens?

Market positioning + economics... With R&S can maybe use PC+monitor as big screen?
Found excellent monitor for my needs. When summer fun&games over gonna get this to spent next winter in comfort&luxury:
http://www.eizo.com/products/flexscan/ev2730q/ (http://www.eizo.com/products/flexscan/ev2730q/)
For some reason never liked to use multiple monitors, with this all stuff fits on single screen  :-+

(http://www.itmagazine.ch/imgserver/artikel/Produkte/2015/mid/EV2730Q-press.jpg_150715_100732.jpg)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Deridex on April 02, 2017, 10:08:45 am
It would be a nice scope if the "whack-a-scope-issue" wouldn't be so bad. I wonder what R&S will do about it

I tried this "whack" on my Agilent MSO7104B and my MSOX6004A
Both have the same issue, may be not as severe as the R&S RTB but nevertheless it is there.
So, I would not worry too much about this.
And who really whack's their scope during measurements and when probes are installed?
I see your point. Problem is just that in Dave's video it looks somewhat worse for me. You could end up searching for stuff, that isn't there.
But i gotta admit: if you know, there is this issue i think you can work with it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on April 02, 2017, 12:53:40 pm
I do not see this microphonic issue as a real problem:
a) more or less all scopes with SMD frontends had that for decades. So what  - did anybody ever had a problem with it? No, of course not. I admit, it might become a problem if you are an engineer on a container freighter and you need to place the scope on top of your 30 meter large marine diesel engine - but for a regular usage.... no problem at all.

b) who whacks his scope or screen with a pen or screwdriver; who even taps it? See?

c) the R&S RTB2000 has a capacitive touch screen, same as your smartphone or tablet. Did you ever pushed these with your finger like Dave did? He really pushed the screen pretty hard, it even makes a "pock" sound each time.
Nobody does this in regular world, at least not with a capacitive touch. You just barley need to touch such a touch screen, so usually you gently use your fingertip.

I can understand that Dave was making a video about it as
1) never has done that before  and
2) with the teaser "shocking" in large letters, implying a sensation, it gives him a nice coverage and raising view-figures (=money). But just the fact that it seems new for most people, it also shows, that it was not a problem in the past 20 years in any real world setup - because then we would have found out before.
I like many of Daves videos and they are often quite helpful. But here you should leave off the "shocking" and should have just made an educational video as usual.

Imho: this is just something exaggerated we should ignore as it would not affect our work (if you are not exactly the marine diesel engineer I mentioned at the beginning).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 02, 2017, 01:05:46 pm
My issue with the vid is simply that it didn't show the effect in real-life usage, with a probe connected, which makes a big difference.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on April 02, 2017, 02:48:22 pm
so after reading some posts here my conclusion of the scope is:
It would be a nice scope if the "whack-a-scope-issue" wouldn't be so bad. I wonder what R&S will do about it

Is there a statement from R&S? It is a usual approach to call the support after finding a problem like the touchscreen microphonics and I guess that it already has been done. Is that feedback available for the public?

To find a problem is important but to find the solution is probabely more important. That has already been done here by discussing the input impedances. But it seems not to be be a full solution for the touchscreen microphonics. I appreciate feedback from owners who will get their new device soon or already got it.

Especially Mike has no touchscreen microphonics problem at all but uses a screen protection foil. That difference could be a solution? Could that possibility be verified? What are the experiences of others users who already received their device (different foil types, layer count, ...)? Dave has two devices and could make a comparison test. That would be a constructive approach.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on April 02, 2017, 03:21:19 pm
I understand the hype about the 2k promo offer. It is like christmas and some people are sad because they did not get a gift.

Of course I would like that too for 2k. But on the other side. Do I really need most of these options?

1. Function Generator: Was difficult to get a specification but what I heard: Definitely no. Much too expensive and without external time reference that makes it too imprecise for me. I expect that most of the users here already have a better one for a lower price and really don't need this option.

2. Serial trigger options: I am fine with my ebay logic analyzer and have no need for such expensive options.

3. Segmented Memory/History: Could actually be interesting but also too expensive for me. I will check what can be done by the remote access instead for this feature.

But without these overpriced options (to be discussed: MSO-option) the rest of the scope is ok for me and maybe I will buy one without an urgent need for this promo offer.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on April 02, 2017, 03:23:46 pm
I can understand that Dave was making a video about it as
1) never has done that before  and

Correct.
Well, I've done one for probes, but not for front ends.

Quote
2) with the teaser "shocking" in large letters, implying a sensation, it gives him a nice coverage and raising view-figures (=money).

Utter rubbish.
I made $104 from that video
(http://i.imgur.com/rGtCSIV.png)

That doesn't even pay for my time to make it.
I could likely have made more if I simply did the review I started out doing, when 5 minutes into doing that video I noticed that touch screen trigger thing.
I simply thought it was interesting and and incredibly ironic thing that touching the (much touched) big screen caused a signal impulse. So thought it would make an interesting video.

It really does bug me when people say I do videos for the money, they have absolutely no clue  >:(

Quote
But just the fact that it seems new for most people, it also shows, that it was not a problem in the past 20 years in any real world setup - because then we would have found out before.
I like many of Daves videos and they are often quite helpful. But here you should leave off the "shocking" and should have just made an educational video as usual.

Seriously? You don't get why I did that?
I added the "shocking" because it's a cute play on words. You know, piezoelectric shock response. Plus the fact that many people would (and were) quite shocked to actually find out such a thing happens. Plus the fact that I was quite shocked personally to find that a simple tap on the touchscreen could do that.
So there are three reasons why it was a perfectly valid title to choose.
You really think a simple play on worlds title detracts from the education content of that video? Seriously?

FYI, as a full time Youtuber who's future ultimately relies upon my content getting viewed, yes I make no excuses that I often with chose an attention grabbing title and an eye catches thumbnail. Any professional Youtuber who doesn't is a fool.
And it's NOT clickbait, my titles and thumbnails are never misleading. Often carefully chosen, yes, misleading, no.

Do I think it's a problem, yes.
Do I think it's a major problem, no.
But it's a fact that the problem can still happen in a real world measurement situation with a x10 probe.

I could have simply just short a much shorted video with just the R&S scope and made it look like this was the worst scope in history, but no, I was fair and included every other scope I had in the lab to show people that it happens with every scope to some degree.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on April 02, 2017, 03:27:31 pm
My issue with the vid is simply that it didn't show the effect in real-life usage, with a probe connected, which makes a big difference.

Yes it can, but as I have stated and tested, I still get a relatively large impulse with a shorted x10 probe attached.
It could still be a potential issue for some people.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on April 02, 2017, 03:30:30 pm
Frequency analysis mode: Due to the high-performance FFT functionality of the R&S®RTB2000 oscilloscopes, signals can be analyzed with up to 128 kpoints.

Does the FFT really only use 128 kpoints? That's very low!

It's double what Keysight offers.

Quote
Note that the new Siglent SDS1000X-E series (based on Xilinx Zynq-7000 SoC architecture) uses 1Mpoints for FFT!

Yep, and it's also pretty basic FFT functionality.

Also remember that any scope can do any number of FFT points you want if you export the data and analyse it externally.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 02, 2017, 04:12:00 pm
Also remember that any scope can do any number of FFT points you want if you export the data and analyse it externally.
That is true for any signal analysis capability of a DSO. The whole point is that the more capabilities are inside an oscilloscope the more versatile it is. Needing to hook up a scope to a PC and running external software (which you probably have to pay extra for) is a nuisance and due to slow transfer rates the update rate may be much slower as well.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 02, 2017, 04:19:06 pm
Quote
Also remember that any scope can do any number of FFT points you want if you export the data and analyse it externally.
And this scope makes that.particularly easy with its USB mass storage mode, as you can immediately pull off a file of the waveform data from its virtual USB drive
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on April 02, 2017, 04:48:46 pm
My issue with the vid is simply that it didn't show the effect in real-life usage, with a probe connected, which makes a big difference.

Yes it can, but as I have stated and tested, I still get a relatively large impulse with a shorted x10 probe attached.
It could still be a potential issue for some people.

I expect the touchscreen microphonic also with 1x probes because in real life situations the impedance includes the DUT impedance and is not shorted. True?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on April 02, 2017, 05:17:56 pm
After watching Mike's excellent review videos and Dave's whack-a-scope video, I finally succumbed to the too-good-to-paas-up promotional deal. (still available fron Tequipment and with the EEVblog discount!) The thing is I don't really need this nice of a scope. But I have been wanting to move up to a 4 channel DSO ( from my hacked Rigol DS2072) and I'm a sucker for a bargain. Hopefully I'll grow into this scope before the next gen of better price/performance scopes appears.

Watching Dave's video and thinking hard about my use, I just don't see the "whack-a-scope" thing ever being an issue in my use.  I've never noticed it on my Rigol and as far as the touch screen goes, I just never tap a touch screen as hard as Dave was doing in his video and even if I did, I'm  sure I would quickly adjust my style if I saw such an effect. That, plus the fact that adding a screen protector is a no-brainer and as others have pointed out, low level signals would typically involve 50 ohm termination and/or 1x probe setting, etc and it just seems like a non-issue to me.
Title: Spelling it correctly
Post by: agdr on April 02, 2017, 08:53:56 pm
One big thing that R&S did achieve with the promo: hundreds of additional people, myself included, now know how to spell "Rohde and Schwarz" correctly.  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on April 02, 2017, 09:09:13 pm
One big thing that R&S did achieve with the promo: hundreds of additional people, myself included, now know how to spell "Rohde and Schwarz" correctly.  :)

May the Schwar(t)z be with you. <- "Movie quote..." - I don't think R&S will adopt it though..
Title: Re: Spelling it correctly
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on April 02, 2017, 09:10:08 pm
One big thing that R&S did achieve with the promo: hundreds of additional people, myself included, now know how to spell "Rohde and Schwarz" correctly.  :)

You mean Rogue and Swarts?
Title: Re: Spelling it correctly
Post by: EEVblog on April 02, 2017, 09:50:17 pm
One big thing that R&S did achieve with the promo: hundreds of additional people, myself included, now know how to spell "Rohde and Schwarz" correctly.  :)

 :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrpackethead on April 02, 2017, 11:59:30 pm
That they did. And its now a name i wish to avoid.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: jjoonathan on April 03, 2017, 01:14:49 am
Even if someone figures out how to hack the base Robe&Shorts up to the equivalent of the promo package?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on April 03, 2017, 03:23:04 am
Has anyone gotten a ship date from Tequipment earlier than May? It seems odd Test Equity has been shipping them out while Tequipment is still saying another month.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on April 03, 2017, 05:49:00 am
Has anyone gotten a ship date from Tequipment earlier than May? It seems odd Test Equity has been shipping them out while Tequipment is still saying another month.

Barely. I ordered on 03/20 (after the in-stock units were gone but still several days before it went out of stock) and I was given a 04/28 date last week. Not sure how accurate it still is.

Laurent
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: piranha32 on April 03, 2017, 06:10:03 am
I ordered on March 17, and the expected shipment date is May 3rd. I guess they want to play safe and assign much later shipment dates than they expected, occasionally revising them as it gets closer to actual shipments.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on April 03, 2017, 06:53:05 am
Has anyone gotten a ship date from Tequipment earlier than May? It seems odd Test Equity has been shipping them out while Tequipment is still saying another month.

I dont think TestEquity has received many. I ordered first day (although the date on the purchase request they sent back to me was the next day)...  and still haven't heard hide or hare, and the online web still has an expected ship-date of 00-00-0000.  When I ordered there wasn't the "30 day on new" or anything indicating it wasn't actually in stock or whatever. All the literature from R&S made it seem like they would have full stock at launch.

Still by now R&S should have projected dates for their back-log (I assume logistic issue, as I mean can assemble several a day no problem). I don't necessarily mind waiting (I haven't bothered calling yet), but I really expected a hard date by now, especially as my cash is already out of my pocket.  Really wonder what is going on with the distribution.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on April 03, 2017, 08:36:43 am
Received my calcert from test one I ordered from testequity, and it was dated the 20th. Maybe they really haven't got a full production line running yet. Option cards in the box from 3/16 so it may really just be distributors ready to move them out but the units need to come in first.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 03, 2017, 08:40:32 am
Received my calcert from test one I ordered from testequity, and it was dated the 20th. Maybe they really haven't got a full production line running yet. Option cards in the box from 3/16 so it may really just be distributors ready to move them out but the units need to come in first.
Or maybe they're having issues in cal/test causing delays.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on April 03, 2017, 08:49:44 am
Received my calcert from test one I ordered from testequity, and it was dated the 20th. Maybe they really haven't got a full production line running yet. Option cards in the box from 3/16 so it may really just be distributors ready to move them out but the units need to come in first.
Or maybe they're having issues in cal/test causing delays.

Definitely the other way that could go. I was originally told 6 weeks and it only took 2 so I'd say it's some issue at R&S holding them up.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on April 03, 2017, 10:11:27 am
Or maybe they're having issues in cal/test causing delays.

Probably the newly introduced whack-the-scope test during final inspection, which they are still trying to automate...  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 03, 2017, 10:58:19 am
R&S released firmware update on March 14th.  https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2004/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2004/)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on April 03, 2017, 11:08:26 am
R&S released firmware update on March 14th.  https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2004/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2004/)

Not really shocking:

New Features of V01.203:
Additional languages supported: Czech, Polish, Italian, Portuguese
Additional device demos
Trigger type “timeout”
Support of label lists for options RTB-K1 and RTB-K3
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on April 03, 2017, 11:19:43 am
Or maybe they're having issues in cal/test causing delays.
Probably the newly introduced whack-the-scope test during final inspection, which they are still trying to automate...  ;)

Please tell me it involves monkeys, that would be so cool.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on April 03, 2017, 11:54:48 am
Or maybe they're having issues in cal/test causing delays.
Probably the newly introduced whack-the-scope test during final inspection, which they are still trying to automate...  ;)

Please tell me it involves monkeys, that would be so cool.

Right -- the Batterizer cymbal-banging monkey looks like a great starting point!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 03, 2017, 06:11:50 pm
Received my calcert from test one I ordered from testequity, and it was dated the 20th. Maybe they really haven't got a full production line running yet. Option cards in the box from 3/16 so it may really just be distributors ready to move them out but the units need to come in first.
Or maybe they're having issues in cal/test causing delays.
It must be a logistics issue, because Newark has started shipping last week when Tequipment estimated shipping date is April 28th.
Title: It works! 174uV(rms) triggering on high definition or averaging acquire
Post by: agdr on April 03, 2017, 08:00:23 pm
So here is ci11's test and... it works!  :D  Pretty darn amazing.

The first photo below shows the signal level. 492Vp-p = 246uV(peak) = 174uV(rms).  This is coming from a Krohn-Hite KH4400B audio oscillator (95% similar to their current KH4402B), which specs at 0.0005% THD at 20Hz.  The scope BW limit is set to 20MHz, although it really didn't make that much difference.  Keep in mind that the oscillator's attenuation network is a series of resistors.  Even though the THD is very low the oscillator is adding a pile of Johnson/thermal noise to the signal.  So that is not all scope noise floor visible in the signal, there is some incoming noise at this tiny level.   Just one 49K series resistor at 25C with the 100KHz bandwidth of the generator would add 9uV of noise.

The second photo shows the capture and trigger with the scope on high definition mode.

I've posted a bunch of additional photos (high res photos, I can only get two attached per post) on Google Drive here including unboxing, test setup, and averaging acquire mode.  Averaging acquire mode was almost as good as high res, I'll post that next (2 photo limit).

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B67cJELZW-i8X294RF9XWFVkSDQ?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B67cJELZW-i8X294RF9XWFVkSDQ?usp=sharing)
Title: ...and on averaging acquire mode, 174uV(rms) signal & test setup
Post by: agdr on April 03, 2017, 08:02:31 pm
And here is a photo in averaging acquire mode rather than high res.  I have averaging set to 5 averages here.  Impressive!  :D

Same signal level in, 174uV(rms), and same 1mV/div vertical on the scope.

The second photo is the test setup, with the KH4400B.  The scope here is as first turned on right out of the box, just on normal acquire mode.  The generator was set to 2mV(rms) here. 2V on the dial, then the 60dB attenuator button pressed in, although it is hard to see in the photo.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on April 03, 2017, 08:45:37 pm
@agdr - doesn't the scope have the ability to save screen shots? If you used that facility we could see the entire trace and all of the scope parameters used during your testing.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on April 03, 2017, 09:13:47 pm
@agdr - doesn't the scope have the ability to save screen shots? If you used that facility we could see the entire trace and all of the scope parameters used during your testing.

Maybe the resolution makes the .PNG file greater than the board's 1MB limit ;-)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 03, 2017, 10:25:35 pm
Crazy, Usually I get annoyed because my CC company declines a charge because they don't recognize who I'm buying from and I have to jump through hoops to get it processed. Today I get an email from Newark saying my order is processed, then about 15 minutes later another one saying it's on CC hold. The CC company had already approved the funds and is good to go. I call Newark to find out what's up they want to verify I'm really me because it's been a while since I've ordered from them WTH.... The only way the CC company will approve is if the billing address matches what I gave them.

Anyway, hope this gets cleared up quickly, already lost another shipping day.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 03, 2017, 10:55:37 pm
It happened the same to me.  Credit card was approved but received an email from Newark credit card department asking for additional information, then they released the order and ready to ship
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on April 03, 2017, 10:56:41 pm
@agdr - doesn't the scope have the ability to save screen shots? If you used that facility we could see the entire trace and all of the scope parameters used during your testing.

It should!  I'll see if I can find it.  There may be some ways to improve that high res mode too.

EDIT! found it!  That was easy.  Didn't even need the manual.  There is a button on the front of the scope with a picture of a camera on it.  I pressed that and the scope popped up a complaint about "missing media".  Hmm... USB stick maybe?  Popped in a USB stick and hit the button again.  "Saved" it said.  Attached is the result, 34K .png on the stick.  The oscillator is set for 1V peak here.

Also - just a usage reminder - remember that pressing the vertical encoder knob goes from "coarse" to "fine" divisions which helps mitigate a bit that annoying thing Mike noted of the encoders having detents.  An easy "fix" for that just occured to me.  R&S should easily be able to do it in firmware - add a 2nd level of fine by pushing the encoder again.  So coarse - fine level 1 - fine level 2 - then back to coarse.  At some amount of magnification (fine level 3?) even the detents won't matter anymore.  But there is a usability thing there of course, a 3 level circular button pressing loop to keep track of vs. two.  The Rigol has two levels, don't think I've seen 3 on anything.  Maybe that could be an R&S exclusive.  ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: corax on April 03, 2017, 11:09:25 pm
Crazy, Usually I get annoyed because my CC company declines a charge because they don't recognize who I'm buying from and I have to jump through hoops to get it processed. Today I get an email from Newark saying my order is processed, then about 15 minutes later another one saying it's on CC hold. The CC company had already approved the funds and is good to go. I call Newark to find out what's up they want to verify I'm really me because it's been a while since I've ordered from them WTH.... The only way the CC company will approve is if the billing address matches what I gave them.

Anyway, hope this gets cleared up quickly, already lost another shipping day.

Exact same thing happened to me through Newark- had to call in and repeat the CC billiing address and CVV2 code.  They then released the order right away.

The unit arrived today and it is in fact the bundle- all license codes for all of the pre-installed options provided (Newark's website listing didn't spell out all of the included options).
Only had a few minutes to play with it so far, but it's definitely several steps up from my Rigol 2072a.  The web browser interface to the scope seems to work really well.
So far the scope-whack test shows the expected results when tapping the BNCs, but I haven't been able to see anything when tapping on the touchscreen.
Title: Scoping out on the lawn
Post by: agdr on April 04, 2017, 12:00:15 am
I plugged the scope (still hooked to the audio oscillator) into the local network (gbps).  I went several rooms away and plugged the laptop into the LAN - worked great.  I ran an IP scanner to find the R&S IP address on the network (network runs DHCP auto-assign), but I could have just hit that green "network" icon on the scope screen to get the IP.   Then entered the scope address into Firefox.  Voila!

So now I've just switched the laptop over to Wifi, on a LAN access point, and I'm outside enjoying a coffee while changing my scope settings and viewing the signal. Life is good.  8)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: piranha32 on April 04, 2017, 12:22:32 am
Also - just a usage reminder - remember that pressing the vertical encoder knob goes from "coarse" to "fine" divisions which helps mitigate a bit that annoying thing Mike noted of the encoders having detents.

Having detents or not does not matter at all. These are rotary encodes, which have discrete output by design. I would rather complain that R&S skimped on the encoders, but with coarse resolution dials having detents is actually helpful, because it gives some feedback on adjustments.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 04, 2017, 12:48:18 am
I think all is good now, Newark says it should ship out tomorrow, invoice shows the proper RTB2004 promo kit.

Joel

Crazy, Usually I get annoyed because my CC company declines a charge because they don't recognize who I'm buying from and I have to jump through hoops to get it processed. Today I get an email from Newark saying my order is processed, then about 15 minutes later another one saying it's on CC hold. The CC company had already approved the funds and is good to go. I call Newark to find out what's up they want to verify I'm really me because it's been a while since I've ordered from them WTH.... The only way the CC company will approve is if the billing address matches what I gave them.

Anyway, hope this gets cleared up quickly, already lost another shipping day.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on April 04, 2017, 01:08:04 am
@agdr - doesn't the scope have the ability to save screen shots? If you used that facility we could see the entire trace and all of the scope parameters used during your testing.

It should!  I'll see if I can find it.  There may be some ways to improve that high res mode too.


Awesome, the pic looks great, its hard not to love that resolution.
Title: Re: Scoping out on the lawn
Post by: mtdoc on April 04, 2017, 01:32:17 am

So now I've just switched the laptop over to Wifi, on a LAN access point, and I'm outside enjoying a coffee while changing my scope settings and viewing the signal. Life is good.  8)

Jealous!

I ordered mine over the weekend and am glad I did since Tequipment is now sold out of the promos again. They told me today it won't ship until mid to late May  :'(
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 04, 2017, 01:38:31 am
For those who have had a chance to play with these now, is there a full screen mode where all the menus go away and the full screen is used for waveform display?

Joel
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on April 04, 2017, 01:46:52 am
For those who have had a chance to play with these now, is there a full screen mode where all the menus go away and the full screen is used for waveform display?

Joel

No, the top and bottom menus are always visible.
Title: Re: It works! 174uV(rms) triggering on high definition or averaging acquire
Post by: rf-loop on April 04, 2017, 06:08:24 am
So here is ci11's test and... it works!  :D  Pretty darn amazing.

The first photo below shows the signal level. 492Vp-p = 246uV(peak) = 174uV(rms).  This is coming from a Krohn-Hite KH4400B audio oscillator (95% similar to their current KH4402B), which specs at 0.0005% THD at 20Hz.  The scope BW limit is set to 20MHz, although it really didn't make that much difference.  Keep in mind that the oscillator's attenuation network is a series of resistors.  Even though the THD is very low the oscillator is adding a pile of Johnson/thermal noise to the signal.  So that is not all scope noise floor visible in the signal, there is some incoming noise at this tiny level.   Just one 49K series resistor at 25C with the 100KHz bandwidth of the generator would add 9uV of noise.

The second photo shows the capture and trigger with the scope on high definition mode.

I've posted a bunch of additional photos (high res photos, I can only get two attached per post) on Google Drive here including unboxing, test setup, and averaging acquire mode.  Averaging acquire mode was almost as good as high res, I'll post that next (2 photo limit).

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B67cJELZW-i8X294RF9XWFVkSDQ?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B67cJELZW-i8X294RF9XWFVkSDQ?usp=sharing)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=305114;image)


Where from this enormous noise?
Bit more wide freq BW do not explain this noise level. (what is this version BW?)

I do not try explain that S is better or what ever competition. This can not even do. This is not apples to apples.
But this is question about this R&S noise what looks bad in these images and question is why?

In R&S image there is 5 times average and 20M reject.
In 2mV image there is really terrible  noise. Nearly like noisy Rigol.
Do you have there some noise generator connected?


Here is cheap Economy Siglent.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=305257;image)
2mVrms, continuous running, no average or other tricks for reduce visible noise, just raw  real time and full BW.


Attacments:
1. 174uVrms  realltime single shot without any kind of averaging or other tricks. Only analog BW rejected for 20M
2. 2mVrms realtime continuously running without any kind of averaging and now also BW full. (~200M)


Signal generator just Siglent 5082 funktion gen and between scope used Agilent 8495B step attenuator (60dB)
Title: 187uV(rms) triggering with a 1KHz Victor oscillator
Post by: agdr on April 04, 2017, 06:24:00 am
Here is ci11's tests with a better (fixed frequency, lower THD and lower noise) oscillator, one of Victor's famous ultra low THD 1KHz units.  Victor's oscillator produces less than -140dB THD, as noted here by a fellow who owns the current model Audio Precision distortion analyzer:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/headphone-systems/300491-neurochrome-hp-1-ultra-high-end-headphone-amp.html#post4918641 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/headphone-systems/300491-neurochrome-hp-1-ultra-high-end-headphone-amp.html#post4918641)

It beats the built-in variable frequency oscillator in the AP so he uses it for the lowest possible THD for a fixed frequency.

Victor's oscillator uses relatively few parts (relative to the variable frequency KH4400B) and is direct output, no resistive dividers to generate Johnson noise.  The oscillator uses two TL431's for a power supply and in this case I have them embedded in a power supply creation of mine.  Kind of went nutz for low noise. :)  This setup is using 5 9V batteries inside a fully shielded (copper spray inside) Hammond case.  The oscillator boards are individually fed with a constant current sink.

The lowest Victor's will go is about 366mV(rms), so I have added my own resistive divider on the output, as shown in the photo.  A 10K in series with a 5.1R, both 1% 50PPM/C metal film, for a 1960:1 voltage reduction, or 366mV(rms)/1960 = 187uV(rms) = 264uV (peak) = 528uVp-p, as shown in the attached photo (529uVp-p in the photo).  I had to keep the total resistance around 10K to keep from loading the oscillator, ideally it would be lower to reduce Johnson noise.  But to that end you might notice in the photo the resistors look a little frosty. ;D   I've sprayed the resistors and their leads down with technical freeze spray to temporarily reduce the Johnson noise as low as I can.

The net result is the 2nd attachment!  This is done using the USB stick and the scope "camera" button trick.  Notice significantly less noise in the signal than with the variable-frequency KH4400B before.  The bulk of that noise previously was the output resistors and (old - LM318!) chips in the KH oscillator. The scope is in high definition acquisition mode again.  I couldn't get it to trigger this time using edge triggering.  I tried a few options and oddly enough "video" triggering did the job, which is what is used below.

For more photos of the test that were too many to post, see this Google Drive link:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B67cJELZW-i8VUowRlh1Q3ZtNXM?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B67cJELZW-i8VUowRlh1Q3ZtNXM?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: It works! 174uV(rms) triggering on high definition or averaging acquire
Post by: agdr on April 04, 2017, 06:26:56 am

Do you have there some noise generator connected?


Yep, see the post I just made above using Victor's oscillator (vastly lower noise than the KH4400B).  The noise isn't coming from the KH RTB2004 scope, it is coming from the old audio oscillator.  It is very low THD but not particularly low noise.  Victor's is though, see above.

Also keep in mind the scope is on normal acquisition there, not high definition yet.

So far, from what I can see, this KH RTB2004 has amazingly low noise, which is exactly what I was hoping for.  For us audiophiles there is no such thing as "low enough noise".  ;D
Title: Re: It works! 174uV(rms) triggering on high definition or averaging acquire
Post by: mtdoc on April 04, 2017, 06:29:23 am

Where from this enormous noise?

As he says in his post, it is coming from the signal.

If you watch Mike's review, he shows the noise floor and it is very low.
Title: Re: It works! 174uV(rms) triggering on high definition or averaging acquire
Post by: rf-loop on April 04, 2017, 06:31:45 am

Do you have there some noise generator connected?


Yep, see the post I just made above using Victor's oscillator (vastly lower noise than the KH4400B).  The noise isn't coming from the KH RTB2004 scope, it is coming from the old audio oscillator.  It is very low THD but not particularly low noise.  Victor's is though, see above.

Now set 2mV/div, full BW, just real time raw running without high res, without averaging, without any kind of tricks what reject displayed noise. Say example 20kHz.
Image.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on April 04, 2017, 06:43:21 am
By the way using USB MTP mode or ethernet you can more easily grab images from the scope. I always have a laptop with me so I have been using the USB. You can open it up and just grab images and data. If you like the usb drive way that works too, especially if you're unable to use the usb or ethernet ways due to distance, I just thought it was slightly cumbersome.
Title: Re: It works! 174uV(rms) triggering on high definition or averaging acquire
Post by: mtdoc on April 04, 2017, 06:45:31 am

Now set 2mV/div, full BW, just real time raw running without high res, without averaging, without any kind of tricks what reject displayed noise. Say example 20kHz.
Image.

Watch Mike's video starting at about the 36 minute mark. He shows it running free with no input at 1mV/div no BW limit - so full 300MHz - noise floor is less than 1 division. Very impressive.  :-+?

MV (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mcgJSKxj0i0)
Title: Re: It works! 174uV(rms) triggering on high definition or averaging acquire
Post by: maginnovision on April 04, 2017, 06:45:55 am

Do you have there some noise generator connected?


Yep, see the post I just made above using Victor's oscillator (vastly lower noise than the KH4400B).  The noise isn't coming from the KH RTB2004 scope, it is coming from the old audio oscillator.  It is very low THD but not particularly low noise.  Victor's is though, see above.

Now set 2mV/div, full BW, just real time raw running without high res, without averaging, without any kind of tricks what reject displayed noise. Say example 20kHz.
Image.

Using two totally different setups I'm not sure what's supposed to be achieved here.
Title: Quick Measure button!
Post by: agdr on April 04, 2017, 06:49:37 am
Here is another slick thing on the RTB2004, a button called "Quick Measure".  Just applies a typical set of measurements to the signal.  Hitting the button again turns them off.  Screen shots below are before and after.

I haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised if that quick-test set is configurable to other measurements.
Title: Noise, with a BNC shorting cap on channel 1
Post by: agdr on April 04, 2017, 06:56:34 am
Regarding noise, here are some tests with a BNC shorting cap on channel 1.  Vertical all the way up at 1mV/div, 20us time base.  The scope is set to measure the peak to peak voltage in the lower left corner.

The first two are normal acquisition mode, first on 20MHz BW limit and the second at full bandwidth.  270uVp-p and 900uVp-p respectively.

The next two are high definition acquisition, first on 20MHz BW limit and the final at full bandwidth.  138uVp-p and 152uVp-p respectively.
Title: Re: It works! 174uV(rms) triggering on high definition or averaging acquire
Post by: rf-loop on April 04, 2017, 07:00:38 am

Do you have there some noise generator connected?


Yep, see the post I just made above using Victor's oscillator (vastly lower noise than the KH4400B).  The noise isn't coming from the KH RTB2004 scope, it is coming from the old audio oscillator.  It is very low THD but not particularly low noise.  Victor's is though, see above.

Now set 2mV/div, full BW, just real time raw running without high res, without averaging, without any kind of tricks what reject displayed noise. Say example 20kHz.
Image.

Using two totally different setups I'm not sure what's supposed to be achieved here.

Perhaps you did not find what reads in R&S screen.
(extremely low samplerate and HI res on what of course reduce displyed noise. This is far far away from real time full bw capture.
Also in mikes review it show quite high noise. 1mV/div  around 1mVpp and around 150uVrms noise. Not bad but but this is R&S ! what normally manufacture around state of art class equipments  - it is lot.
Title: Re: Noise, with a BNC shorting cap on channel 1
Post by: rf-loop on April 04, 2017, 07:18:57 am
Regarding noise, here are some tests with a BNC shorting cap on channel 1.  Vertical all the way up at 1mV/div, 20us time base.  The scope is set to measure the peak to peak voltage in the lower left corner.

The first two are normal acquisition mode, first on 20MHz BW limit and the second at full bandwidth.  270uVp-p and 900uVp-p respectively.

The next two are high definition acquisition, first on 20MHz BW limit and the final at full bandwidth.  138uVp-p and 152uVp-p respectively.

Now it looks better, nearly like Sigl.  (meaningful is full BW 1mV/div raw realtime mode without any "cleaning" functions on.)

Your screen trace looks thin but still your measurements show 0.9mVpp. Why these peaks are not visible?
Look mikes review video, around same but trace in video looks much more thick.

Edit now I know why it looks thin.
Here it is, attached, sample from your "noise hide image"

Now it looks more like it really is.
Title: Re: Noise, with a BNC shorting cap on channel 1
Post by: ebastler on April 04, 2017, 07:25:11 am
Now it looks better, nearly like Sigl.  (meaningful is full BW 1mV/div raw realtime mode without any "cleaning" functions on.)

Which Siglent model(s) are you comparing to?
Would you have any data? (Maybe they are already posted on a Siglent thread somewhere, but I can't recall.)
Thanks!
Title: Re: Noise, with a BNC shorting cap on channel 1
Post by: tautech on April 04, 2017, 07:32:09 am
Now it looks better, nearly like Sigl.  (meaningful is full BW 1mV/div raw realtime mode without any "cleaning" functions on.)

Which Siglent model(s) are you comparing to?
Would you have any data? (Maybe they are already posted on a Siglent thread somewhere, but I can't recall.)
Thanks!
Bog standard SDS1kX.
When I saw Mikes vid I thought R&S might have done better than Siglent's best selling model but no.
I'd put some shots up but I'm out of stock, anyway there's plenty of examples in the SDS1000X thread.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rf-loop on April 04, 2017, 07:41:38 am
Just for compare, (previous detail image from R&S  @agdr
Same settings (afaik)
Around same ballpark (note BW diffeerence R&S 300MHz  / Sig measured BW around 200MHz, nameplate  BW 100MHz)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 04, 2017, 07:58:16 am
For those who have had a chance to play with these now, is there a full screen mode where all the menus go away and the full screen is used for waveform display?

Joel

No, the top and bottom menus are always visible.
If you have lots of channels , decodes etc. going, the bottom menu can grow by another line.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 04, 2017, 08:01:55 am
Also - just a usage reminder - remember that pressing the vertical encoder knob goes from "coarse" to "fine" divisions which helps mitigate a bit that annoying thing Mike noted of the encoders having detents.

Having detents or not does not matter at all. These are rotary encodes, which have discrete output by design. I would rather complain that R&S skimped on the encoders, but with coarse resolution dials having detents is actually helpful, because it gives some feedback on adjustments.
The thing about the detents is that they prevent decent velocity sensing. Not a big deal for vert/horiz, but a pain for the general purpose adjust knob, e.g. adjusting holdoff , pulse trig width etc.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on April 04, 2017, 08:06:14 am
Also - just a usage reminder - remember that pressing the vertical encoder knob goes from "coarse" to "fine" divisions which helps mitigate a bit that annoying thing Mike noted of the encoders having detents.

Having detents or not does not matter at all. These are rotary encodes, which have discrete output by design. I would rather complain that R&S skimped on the encoders, but with coarse resolution dials having detents is actually helpful, because it gives some feedback on adjustments.
The thing about the detents is that they prevent decent velocity sensing. Not a big deal for vert/horiz, but a pain for the general purpose adjust knob, e.g. adjusting holdoff , pulse trig width etc.

When you first mentioned the detented knobs I thought I wouldn't care. I do understand where you're coming from though after having used it for 20-30 hours.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on April 04, 2017, 09:57:23 am
Just for compare, (previous detail image from R&S  @agdr
Same settings (afaik)
Around same ballpark (note BW diffeerence R&S 300MHz  / Sig measured BW around 200MHz, nameplate  BW 100MHz)

Noise comparisons have to use the same analog bandwidth, same memory depth, same sample rate, and same update rate, otherwise they are not apples-apples.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 04, 2017, 10:08:28 am
Also - just a usage reminder - remember that pressing the vertical encoder knob goes from "coarse" to "fine" divisions which helps mitigate a bit that annoying thing Mike noted of the encoders having detents.

Having detents or not does not matter at all. These are rotary encodes, which have discrete output by design. I would rather complain that R&S skimped on the encoders, but with coarse resolution dials having detents is actually helpful, because it gives some feedback on adjustments.
The thing about the detents is that they prevent decent velocity sensing. Not a big deal for vert/horiz, but a pain for the general purpose adjust knob, e.g. adjusting holdoff , pulse trig width etc.

When you first mentioned the detented knobs I thought I wouldn't care. I do understand where you're coming from though after having used it for 20-30 hours.
The touchscreen is what stops this being a serious issue as you can type values in,but there are times when it gets annoying. There is some velocity sensing but I think it's basically 2 'gears' and only barely useful.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: madires on April 04, 2017, 10:11:10 am
The thing about the detents is that they prevent decent velocity sensing. Not a big deal for vert/horiz, but a pain for the general purpose adjust knob, e.g. adjusting holdoff , pulse trig width etc.

Let's say, detents make it harder to sense the velocity. My observation is that users are turning an encoder a few steps automatically when turning fast. When you take the average time per step for a few steps (2 or 3) you get good results also for encoders with detents. And for higher velocities add one or two steps dynamically to prevent glitches (sudden high velocity). I've just tested this with cheap and crappy encoders, and it works reasonably well.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 04, 2017, 12:03:36 pm
Just for compare, (previous detail image from R&S  @agdr
Same settings (afaik)
Around same ballpark (note BW diffeerence R&S 300MHz  / Sig measured BW around 200MHz, nameplate  BW 100MHz)
Noise comparisons have to use the same analog bandwidth, same memory depth, same sample rate, and same update rate, otherwise they are not apples-apples.
It is not just about comparisons at the higher sensitivity settings (which are not often used anyway) but even at lower sensitivity setting a scope may make a signal look way too woollie to be usefull. A high update rate is less desireable for a close look at a signal because each sweep adds more noise.
Title: Re: Noise, with a BNC shorting cap on channel 1
Post by: vokars on April 04, 2017, 12:29:46 pm
Now it looks better, nearly like Sigl.  (meaningful is full BW 1mV/div raw realtime mode without any "cleaning" functions on.)

Which Siglent model(s) are you comparing to?
Would you have any data? (Maybe they are already posted on a Siglent thread somewhere, but I can't recall.)
Thanks!
Bog standard SDS1kX.
When I saw Mikes vid I thought R&S might have done better than Siglent's best selling model but no.
I'd put some shots up but I'm out of stock, anyway there's plenty of examples in the SDS1000X thread.

I am a little bit unhappy with foggy sales comments like this. Do you really think this is good for your business? Or does Siglent think so?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nfmax on April 04, 2017, 12:34:07 pm
Just for compare, (previous detail image from R&S  @agdr
Same settings (afaik)
Around same ballpark (note BW diffeerence R&S 300MHz  / Sig measured BW around 200MHz, nameplate  BW 100MHz)
Noise comparisons have to use the same analog bandwidth, same memory depth, same sample rate, and same update rate, otherwise they are not apples-apples.
It is not just about comparisons at the higher sensitivity settings (which are not often used anyway) but even at lower sensitivity setting a scope may make a signal look way too woollie to be usefull. A high update rate is less desireable for a close look at a signal because each sweep adds more noise.
Yes indeed. That's why there is a user control called 'trigger holdoff' to reduce the maximum update rate. But it's nice to have the fast update available when it's needed.
Title: Re: Noise, with a BNC shorting cap on channel 1
Post by: mtdoc on April 04, 2017, 02:08:01 pm
Now it looks better, nearly like Sigl.  (meaningful is full BW 1mV/div raw realtime mode without any "cleaning" functions on.)

Which Siglent model(s) are you comparing to?
Would you have any data? (Maybe they are already posted on a Siglent thread somewhere, but I can't recall.)
Thanks!
Bog standard SDS1kX.
When I saw Mikes vid I thought R&S might have done better than Siglent's best selling model but no.
I'd put some shots up but I'm out of stock, anyway there's plenty of examples in the SDS1000X thread.

I am a little bit unhappy with foggy sales comments like this. Do you really think this is good for your business? Or does Siglent think so?

Indeed. Implying that a noise comparison between nominal 100MHz and 300MHz bandwidth scopes (without any common BW limiting, etc) has any meaning is very car-salesman-ish.  I don't think it achieves the desired effect on a technical forum. Quite the opposite.

Also, rf-loop really needs a Siglent distributor disclaimer in his sig. Just saying...
Title: Re: Noise, with a BNC shorting cap on channel 1
Post by: ebastler on April 04, 2017, 02:12:07 pm
Also, rf-loop really needs a Siglent distributor disclaimer in his sig. Just saying...

Agree. He had that for a long time, and decided to remove it a few months (?) ago. I asked him to re-instate it, but without response.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: genghisnico13 on April 04, 2017, 02:46:36 pm
I placed the order on TEquipment on march 22nd, confirmed on the 24th and yesterday it was canceled because "Rohde & Schwarz feels it will be exported" (which was the plan BTW) and now they are sold out :-[ I think my only chances of ever getting one are with the upcoming giveaway. :'(
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ElectronMan on April 04, 2017, 03:22:41 pm
I placed an order with Newark on 3/30 and got confirmation and a ship date of 4/3 (and my card was charged). Now I see the charge has disappeared from my card and no sign of shipping info (and the order won't pull up by order #).

The page I ordered from now has the unit listed in stock but for about $8k. It is looking more and more like they are canceling orders and gaming the system... R&S's reputation is may well be damaged by their distributors.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 04, 2017, 03:31:18 pm
I placed an order with Newark on 3/30 and got confirmation and a ship date of 4/3 (and my card was charged). Now I see the charge has disappeared from my card and no sign of shipping info (and the order won't pull up by order #).

The page I ordered from now has the unit listed in stock but for about $8k. It is looking more and more like they are canceling orders and gaming the system... R&S's reputation is may well be damaged by their distributors.
Maybe they tried to contact you to get additional information about the credit card and they did not get a reply on time.  Newark system is a mess, their online and offline ordering systems are disconnected with manual re-entry of orders, multiple databases with different pricing and availability.  The order number is 8 digits.  Any other number is preliminary (they call it PO number) and pretty much useless.  Until you receive the order confirmation email and get assigned an ORDER number, your purchase is not confirmed.
And my online credit card activity shows like 8 authorizations from Newark from 3/30 to 4/4 for amounts varying from $2K to $8K.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ElectronMan on April 04, 2017, 03:36:05 pm
Just got off the phone with them. They never attempted contact, just canceled the order. They said they needed the CVV code from my card (which is odd because they actually were able to place the temporary charge on it). They then told me my address was wrong. I read it out of the e-mail and it is exactly the address that has always been used with that card. Funny enough, I am getting their newsletter e-mails now, but no one bothered to send an e-mail about canceling my order.

If it was an isolated incident, fine. but combined with everything else I am reading it is a suspicious amount of incompetence.

I did have an order confirmation, an 8 digit "PO" number, a 6 digit "Order number" and a ship date.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tequipment on April 04, 2017, 03:44:17 pm
Thanks for all the business.

To anyone international who ordered from us that we canceled.  We appreciate the business but cannot export RS.
The promotion caused a lot of concern over export.  We currently are sold out of the 60 units have have coming in.

Again thanks,
Evan Cirelli

Vice President and co-founder
TEquipment.NET
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: edavid on April 04, 2017, 03:48:48 pm
Thanks for all the business.

To anyone international who ordered from us that we canceled.  We appreciate the business but cannot export RS.
The promotion caused a lot of concern over export.  We currently are sold out of the 60 units have have coming in.

Have you shipped any units yet?   Does R&S like Newark better than you? :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on April 04, 2017, 04:02:42 pm
Thanks for all the business.

To anyone international who ordered from us that we canceled.  We appreciate the business but cannot export RS.
The promotion caused a lot of concern over export.  We currently are sold out of the 60 units have have coming in.

Have you shipped any units yet?   Does R&S like Newark better than you :)

at least i got an estimated ship date today from them... but yeah... basically arriving in may.  So if they had any, it was a couple.
But yeah, can imagine the EU dealers were pointing fingers at RS to ensure they enforced the distribution contracts, since they didnt want to offer the deal.  not sure how i feel about the whole thing. 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: admiralmaggie on April 04, 2017, 04:36:22 pm
Continental Resources (http://www.conres.com/test-equipment (http://www.conres.com/test-equipment)) still has some in stock. They don't take online orders so you have to request a "Quote". I placed an order last week and it was shipped same day...

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 04, 2017, 04:40:41 pm
Yes indeed. That's why there is a user control called 'trigger holdoff' to reduce the maximum update rate. But it's nice to have the fast update available when it's needed.

Hold off is not the only thing that reduces the update rate. Acquisition length and trigger offset will do this as well. I know many cases where people developed
their 50/60Hz mains, watch their periods and complaind about the update rate ...  :clap:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: piranha32 on April 04, 2017, 04:52:36 pm
We currently are sold out of the 60 units have have coming in.
thanks for info. Do you know approx date when the scopes will arrive and when you will be able to start shipping them?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thanasisk on April 04, 2017, 07:28:06 pm
So annoying European distributors do not care at all offering something closer to the US offer, i suppose most of the people in europe would be happy with just the 2channel model with a couple of options with a brave discount.

 And 700 euros plus vat just for enabling the generator?  This is absurd
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 04, 2017, 07:47:08 pm
So annoying European distributors do not care at all offering something closer to the US offer, i suppose most of the people in europe would be happy with just the 2channel model with a couple of options with a brave discount.

 And 700 euros plus vat just for enabling the generator?  This is absurd
I think the mistake they've made is pricing the options relative to a 300MHz scope, not the 70MHz base model.
Hopefully they'll see the error of this and make the pricing more realistic.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: admiralmaggie on April 04, 2017, 08:16:29 pm
Mike, I want to thank you for mentioning the promotion on your video! I would not have known about it any other way... Serial decoding on RTB2004 in particular is a great lifesaver! Really happy with it overall...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on April 04, 2017, 08:29:56 pm
I am wondering if anybody here really received his scope from Newark or at least got a tracking #?
It looks like they are taking orders, charging the credit card and then (sometimes silently) just canceling the order either without any reason or under a pretext ...  what a shabby behavior  of Newark :--
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on April 04, 2017, 08:44:20 pm
I am wondering if anybody here really received his scope from Newark or at least got a tracking #?

Mine came from Newark.  But I started out with a phone call to their sales dept. given how messed up the ordering situation was. I didn't even try to use the website until after she called back once Corporate OK'ed the promo price (that took about 2 hours wait) and sent a confirmed quote in the email ("locked" price at that point, she called it ), where I was then supposed to click on a link to follow it through.  I've done a fair amount of regular business with them for a few years so already had a bit of a customer history.  Not an account though, mine did go through a credit card and I didn't get contacted about it.  But I've used that same card number for at least a year there, again a bit of history with them I guess.

That is really unfortunately people have wound up with cancelled orders just due to cc verification issues!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: admiralmaggie on April 04, 2017, 08:55:29 pm
I am wondering if anybody here really received his scope from Newark or at least got a tracking #?
It looks like they are taking orders, charging the credit card and then (sometimes silently) just canceling the order either without any reason or under a pretext ...  what a shabby behavior  of Newark :--

I had an order with Newark but I canceled it since the expected ship date was moving and bought mine from Continental Resources. I received it unit two days after...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: corax on April 04, 2017, 09:13:40 pm
I am wondering if anybody here really received his scope from Newark or at least got a tracking #?
It looks like they are taking orders, charging the credit card and then (sometimes silently) just canceling the order either without any reason or under a pretext ...  what a shabby behavior  of Newark :--

Mine came from Newark.  Ordered last week twice- first order came through at the $8000 price and was cancelled; things were corrected with a new order after a call to customer service.  Had to make another call
to verify my credit card.  Scope arrived yesterday.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 05, 2017, 12:07:48 am
Ordered mine Friday, finally got shipped and have tracking number today.

Joel[

quote author=Pinkus link=topic=84856.msg1178695#msg1178695 date=1491337796]
I am wondering if anybody here really received his scope from Newark or at least got a tracking #?
It looks like they are taking orders, charging the credit card and then (sometimes silently) just canceling the order either without any reason or under a pretext ...  what a shabby behavior  of Newark :--
[/quote]
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on April 05, 2017, 04:45:57 am
Ordered mine Friday, finally got shipped and have tracking number today.

Guess R&S must have sent a baseline number to each distributor, although late (just like those to the reviewers).  Sadly looks like TEq and TestEq got swamped.. since I ordered as soon as I heard the deal, and here 2-3 weeks later got a ship date of another 3 weeks.   *shrugs* 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on April 05, 2017, 05:45:12 am
Looks like there is a new video (or at least YouTube just recommended it to me). Unfortunately in Portuguese again:
https://youtu.be/ZNDdfAcP2xc
Title: Re: It works! 174uV(rms) triggering on high definition or averaging acquire
Post by: ci11 on April 05, 2017, 05:47:59 am
So here is ci11's test and... it works!  :D  Pretty darn amazing.

The first photo below shows the signal level. 492Vp-p = 246uV(peak) = 174uV(rms).  This is coming from a Krohn-Hite KH4400B audio oscillator (95% similar to their current KH4402B), which specs at 0.0005% THD at 20Hz.  The scope BW limit is set to 20MHz, although it really didn't make that much difference.  Keep in mind that the oscillator's attenuation network is a series of resistors.  Even though the THD is very low the oscillator is adding a pile of Johnson/thermal noise to the signal.  So that is not all scope noise floor visible in the signal, there is some incoming noise at this tiny level.   Just one 49K series resistor at 25C with the 100KHz bandwidth of the generator would add 9uV of noise.

The second photo shows the capture and trigger with the scope on high definition mode.

I've posted a bunch of additional photos (high res photos, I can only get two attached per post) on Google Drive here including unboxing, test setup, and averaging acquire mode.  Averaging acquire mode was almost as good as high res, I'll post that next (2 photo limit).

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B67cJELZW-i8X294RF9XWFVkSDQ?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B67cJELZW-i8X294RF9XWFVkSDQ?usp=sharing)

Thanks, AGDR! Looks great - I am eagerly waiting to try the test myself very soon!

FYI - 1audio has posted his mod findings and parts list on the KH 4400A on the DIYAudio forum and I'm ordering parts now.
Title: Re: It works! 174uV(rms) triggering on high definition or averaging acquire
Post by: agdr on April 05, 2017, 06:29:20 am

Thanks, AGDR! Looks great - I am eagerly waiting to try the test myself very soon!

FYI - 1audio has posted his mod findings and parts list on the KH 4400A on the DIYAudio forum and I'm ordering parts now.

It does seem to be a nice little scope!:)   I'll be eager to hear how your testing goes.

Yeah 1audio was able to get the THD way down there with a bunch of part swaps!  My "B" turned out to be a different animal, but one or two of the mods might apply.  As far as I can tell the inverting out and quadrature out are exactly the same circuit.  Same ancient op-amps.

Title: My scope graduated from the 4th grade!
Post by: agdr on April 05, 2017, 07:24:17 am
From here:

http://www.pbs.org/parents/education/going-to-school/grade-by-grade/fourth/ (http://www.pbs.org/parents/education/going-to-school/grade-by-grade/fourth/)

"Fourth graders read, write, compare, add, subtract, multiply, and divide with very large whole numbers. They do more equations with fractions and decimals...".    See the attached screenshot.  :palm:

One of my few big complaints about the scope.
Title: Re: My scope graduated from the 4th grade!
Post by: vokars on April 05, 2017, 12:28:19 pm
From here:

http://www.pbs.org/parents/education/going-to-school/grade-by-grade/fourth/ (http://www.pbs.org/parents/education/going-to-school/grade-by-grade/fourth/)

"Fourth graders read, write, compare, add, subtract, multiply, and divide with very large whole numbers. They do more equations with fractions and decimals...".    See the attached screenshot.  :palm:

One of my few big complaints about the scope.

I remember the preliminary sales information of the HMO1202: Only basic maths without formula editor. But at release the formula editor finally was included. All these basic HMO models have that.

For the RTB2000 it seems that the formula editor feature maybe was a victim of the release completion deadline? Maybe it only requires enough customer feedback for R&S to deliver it in a firmware upgrade. Everything else would be a strange marketing mix.
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: afhox on April 05, 2017, 02:40:25 pm
Looks like there is a new video (or at least YouTube just recommended it to me). Unfortunately in Portuguese again:
https://youtu.be/ZNDdfAcP2xc

He basically explains that the more acquistion memory the better and why, using a CAN decoding example.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 05, 2017, 03:04:40 pm
Looks like there is a new video (or at least YouTube just recommended it to me). Unfortunately in Portuguese again:
https://youtu.be/ZNDdfAcP2xc (https://youtu.be/ZNDdfAcP2xc)

He basically explains that the more acquistion memory the better and why, using a CAN decoding example.

... indirectly yes. Keeping the same time range while increasing the memory can only be done by increasing the sample rate. Reducing the sample rate
will force the bus at one point to be not decoded correctly ... thats á typical aliasing thing.

At mikes video around 50:43  you can see that there is an aliasing warning within the bus-signal field at the bottom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTsbYqhZiSg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTsbYqhZiSg)

I like it pretty much cause you can see that you´re getting closer to the aliasing point where you decode won´t work anymore.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 05, 2017, 03:41:22 pm
Just had a look at history/segmented mode :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0xZXMHKlJY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0xZXMHKlJY)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 05, 2017, 03:45:42 pm
Just had a look at history/segmented mode :

October 2016  ??? Is the date not set up on the KS?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 05, 2017, 03:58:19 pm
Just had a look at history/segmented mode :

The case on the KS where it doesn´t show the acquisition while its capturing is OK.
This is an acquisition mode where the data are not displayed and processed. R&S scope like RTO/RTM  or the HMOs have this feature as well.
They call it "Ultra segmentation".

This can be used for getting a much higher acquisition rate. Cause on typically data processing you have to handle them online.
In this special mode data processing is done after the acquistions are done and the scope is stopped.

The slow rate of acquistion should come from the idle time between your packets right? Otherwise why are they slower?  The RTB2000 shows a higher acquisition rate for the same typ of packages ...

Sorry i´ve no other scopes to make further  comparisons for this.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 05, 2017, 04:27:11 pm
Just had a look at history/segmented mode :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0xZXMHKlJY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0xZXMHKlJY)
Some Keysight scopes can be made to do circular buffering (like a history mode) if you enable the circular segmented recording option (which isn't official). Other than that the way segmented recording and selecting memory lengths are implemented in the RTB2000 is quite standard compared to other DSOs (except Keysight).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kkessler on April 05, 2017, 06:21:56 pm
I took a walk around my business park today, following signs to a new food truck area, and what did I see but a big building with Rohde & Schwarz on it.  Googling a little bit, I found I work 0.3 miles from the US Headquarters of Rohde & Schwarz, in Columbia MD.  Not that it helps me much, since I'm still 4 weeks away from getting my scope shipped from California, but at least if the scope sucks, I know where I can throw eggs. :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on April 05, 2017, 06:45:57 pm
People have been saying "$8k scope" a lot and that's not really true because if someone were to buy the fully loaded package they wouldn't pay for options individually, they'd get the all the decodes / wavegen / segmented memory in the option pack instead ($1260). So the full retail price is actually US$6025 without any discounts. Though saying $8k does make the launch deal sound better if you got it. I made a chart to compare some option configurations if I was set on this scope and trying to get the price down. ...in normal times, with the launch deal done and gone. The bandwidth upgrades are big ticket, 200 -> 300 mhz alone is about $1100. The 16ch LA ($770) is the only other stand-alone option. Without those the price is about half but still pretty hefty, kinda DSOX2000-ish. Even without any options, the base 2-ch scope at $1370 could be compelling to some because it still has the main "killer" features: 10-bit ADC and 10" high-res screen. And IMHO other std features that together add just as much value are the snappy remote interface ( :-+ :-+ R&S), low noise, 2.5 GS, 10M mem (breaking with A-brand tradition of small sample memory), and design and build by a top-tier mfr (sure, a variety of charged opinions on this one, but for me I believe R&S + former Hameg team are on the level). Sure the scope has its minuses but so far they haven't been extraordinary IMO, and have been very well covered so far. Still, in terms of pure value a B-brand scope is probably the better choice for those trying to stretch every dollar, but this scope does bring something special to the table. While I think some of the pricing criticism is deserved (protocol decodes, ugh), I don't think it's across-the-board ridiculous. There's a distinct line between A-brand scopes/pricing and B-brands, and whether it's worth the cost to cross that line is of course different for everyone.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 05, 2017, 06:54:23 pm
At $6k it is still $4k more expensive compared to the GW Instek MSO2000AE which has a similar feature set (some pros & cons compared to RTB2000). I'm not sure if a bigger screen, 10bit ADCs and deeper segmented memory are worth $4k though.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: lukier on April 05, 2017, 07:17:11 pm
At $6k it is still $4k more expensive compared to the GW Instek MSO2000AE which has a similar feature set (some pros & cons compared to RTB2000). I'm not sure if a bigger screen, 10bit ADCs and deeper segmented memory are worth $4k though.

I agree. The only hope for RTB2000, especially if R&S keeps the current pricing scheme, is if somebody manages to hack the options - then 70 MHz 4Ch MSO price is more sensible. I wonder if Mike has some spare time to poke around the RTB2000 to find serial console or the JTAG ID for the CPU. The firmware update seems to be well encrypted (I've checked the entropy).

The more Mike's videos on RTB2000 I watch the more I like the scope, finally modern screen resolution, gigabit ethernet etc, but the pricing is absolute killer. Also IMHO lack of 50 Ohm input sucks, I consider this really important for scopes with bandwith > 100 MHz and I guess 50 Ohm would be good for the claimed 10 bit low noise due to lower Johnson noise.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 05, 2017, 07:25:52 pm
It would be interesting to see if the hacking method found for the other R&S products also works on their scopes. I tried to acquire a second hand R&S scope to try but so far none have been available for a reasonable price.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on April 05, 2017, 07:41:55 pm
People have been saying "$8k scope" a lot and that's not really true because if someone were to buy the fully loaded package they wouldn't pay for options individually, they'd get the all the decodes / wavegen / segmented memory in the option pack instead ($1260). So the full retail price is actually US$6025 without any discounts.

Well, but that is not true. The pricing goes like this in Germany: (1 EUR = 1.07 USD according to google)

(Prices in EUR)
1900,00 RTB2004 4CH base model 70MHz

225,00 RTB-B241 70MHz->100MHz
745,00 RTB-B242 70MHz->200MHz
1745,00 RTB-B242 70MHz->300MHz
700,00 RTB-B1 MSO option

4350,00 RTB2K-304M 4Ch, 300MHz, MSO

700,00 RTB-B6 Upgrade 25MHz Arbiträr
480,00 RTB-K1 I²C und SPI Bus Dekodierung
480,00 RTB-K2 UART/RS-232/RS-422/RS-485
480,00 RTB-K3 CAN und LIN Dekodierung
700,00 RTB-K15 History und Segmentierbarer Speicher
7190,00 Total

7190,00 RTB2K-COM4 Complete optioned up 4Ch MSO

U.S. Bundle: (Tequipment.net)
$1,991.26 RTB2K-COM4

So yes, if you want the full bundle, you pay almost 8k USD.

and mind you, they have to pay 19% VAT on top of it if they are mere mortal beings.


EDIT:  OK I found an option bundle hidden away in the price list:'
Mind that this new option bundle did not exist when people were posting the 8k price.

1150,00 EUR RTB-PK1 - contains K1, K2, K3, K15, B6

you still have to buy either the MSO version (2600EUR) or pay 1900+700EUR for the upgrade plus 1745EUR for the 300MHz bandwidth upgrade.
Total: 5500 EUR

So why does the COM-4 package cost 7190EUR ????
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on April 05, 2017, 08:15:30 pm
Yeah the prices have already changed from the original released ones.. there wasn't the bundled upgrade...  granted even at the time of release, there were some upgrade options that cost more than upgrading beyond to the next level up.

    RTB2004 70MHz, 4ch, 10bit, 10MSa, 10" WXGA Touchscreen   
    RTB-B243 4ch, 300MHz Upgrade
    RTB-B1 16 channel Mixed Signal Option

Above TEQ and TestE has for $4760 

    RTB-B6 Pattern and Arbitrary Waveform Generator originally  (770)
    RTB-K1 I2C, SPI Trigger/Decode  (540)
    RTB-K2 UART/RS232/RS422/RS485 Trigger/Decode  (540)
    RTB-K3 CAN/LIN Trigger/Decode (540)
    RTB-K15 History and Segment Memory  (790)

Above now has an RTB-PK1  (which I dont recall seeing before)  for $1260  (replaces the $3180 above)

So yeah, when I priced the options and the deal, I saw $7940 for $2080...    3 weeks later now its $6020

Interestingly, TEq and TestE both seem to have dropped the com4 at the $7940 levels already.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on April 05, 2017, 08:18:32 pm
The package exists since the beginning. When I first checked the prices on the 14th I already found out. Anyhow, it looks that not all shops are offering it?

Anyhow, for my box I decided I don't need it. BTW: arrived today and absolutely great. If I should try something just let me know. Disclaimer: of the options I only have the logic channels.

Also tried to trigger it with hitting on the screen.... wasn't able to trigger it this way. But maybe I just don't want to sent it in for repairing a broken screen right away :-D. Already have this on my phone.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on April 05, 2017, 08:36:11 pm
I also received mine today, and have played with it for about 10 minutes. First impressions:


It's going to take a long time to really feel comfortable with all of the features in this scope, but I already like it better than my Siglent SDS2304X because of the touchscreen and better button/knob layout.

*Brian
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on April 05, 2017, 08:46:08 pm

It's going to take a long time to really feel comfortable with all of the features in this scope, but I already like it better than my Siglent SDS2304X because of the touchscreen and better button/knob layout.

*Brian
Did you get the 300 MHz R&S ?
Some comparison between it and your SDS2304X could be interesting if you have a chance.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 05, 2017, 08:49:53 pm
Just had a look at history/segmented mode : ....
Some Keysight scopes can be made to do circular buffering (like a history mode) if you enable the circular segmented recording option (which isn't official). Other than that the way segmented recording and selecting memory lengths are implemented in the RTB2000 is quite standard compared to other DSOs (except Keysight).

Can you tell how to get the circular segmented recording option without changing option-id-resistors or being sued/shot by Keysight?

Cause its a very nice feature to have a permanent history available. In many cases you´ll may see a glitch or infrequent event ...  and think   :wtf:
Just press stop and scroll back in history ...  thats awesome. Its more helpfull than turning on persistence and let the scope capture another seconds, hoping the event will come back.

So why throwing away past data?

Nobody will die if you offer him past valid data instead of throwing them away.




Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 05, 2017, 09:05:15 pm
Just had a look at history/segmented mode : ....
Some Keysight scopes can be made to do circular buffering (like a history mode) if you enable the circular segmented recording option (which isn't official). Other than that the way segmented recording and selecting memory lengths are implemented in the RTB2000 is quite standard compared to other DSOs (except Keysight).
Can you tell how to get the circular segmented recording option without changing option-id-resistors or being sued/shot by Keysight?

Cause its a very nice feature to have a permanent history available. In many cases you´ll may see a glitch or infrequent event ..
It is a software option on the older DSO3000/6000/7000 models but it is not like a typical history mode which keeps old acquisitions. You have to go into segmented recording mode and just as Miked showed in the video you won't see any signals on a Keysight scope until you press the stop button. Edit: the latter can be a major nuisance because only after stopping & looking you can check whether the samplerate is still high enough for the protocol decoding to work properly.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on April 05, 2017, 10:15:15 pm
Has anyone been able to try the data (waveform data) capture functionality yet?
I'm mainly interested in how fast the transfer is over e.g. the LAN interface.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 05, 2017, 10:48:25 pm
That's good to hear. I was about to order an SDS2304X when I saw this thread. Mine is scheduled to show up Friday. Anxious to run it through its paces. Now I just need to find a home for my old scopes.

Joel

I also received mine today, and have played with it for about 10 minutes. First impressions:

It's going to take a long time to really feel comfortable with all of the features in this scope, but I already like it better than my Siglent SDS2304X because of the touchscreen and better button/knob layout.

*Brian
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on April 06, 2017, 01:50:17 am
Has anyone been able to try the data (waveform data) capture functionality yet?
I'm mainly interested in how fast the transfer is over e.g. the LAN interface.

Not knowing much about it, do you have a way to test this out that I could try for you? I have the scope's webpage up (which is really, really nice and very, very fast) but I don't see anything about transferring waveform data on the webpage anywhere.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on April 06, 2017, 02:02:02 am
I've got mine today as well!!

Played for about 2 hours with it and I love it. Yes, the GUI could be a bit snappier, but for me it is far from annoying!
I'm impressed with the screen, the GUI and the performance so far. It will take some time to get used to it.

The last scope that I used regularly was a TDS2012B if I remember correctly. I used my brothers MSOX2000 sometimes so I know roughly how the Keysights feel as well.

I also think it is pretty silent in spite of having a fan. Doesn't bother me at all.
This is my first scope that I own, I couldn't have wished for anything better.
There are a few slight quirks and bugs in the firmware but I guess R&S will iron them out soon.

EDIT: BTW, I hardly could get my "Whack-O-Trigger" going with hitting the case in a quick test. I didn't want to hit the touchscreen though.
Another thing: The color markers that come with the probes don't fit the on-screen colors on the scope...  :-//  Really R&S?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: gslick on April 06, 2017, 02:54:44 am
Has anyone been able to try the data (waveform data) capture functionality yet?
I'm mainly interested in how fast the transfer is over e.g. the LAN interface.

Not knowing much about it, do you have a way to test this out that I could try for you? I have the scope's webpage up (which is really, really nice and very, very fast) but I don't see anything about transferring waveform data on the webpage anywhere.

From the R&S®RTB2000 Digital Oscilloscope User Manual

8.3.5 Save/Recall
On the "Save/Recall" page, you can save waveform data and instrument settings to a
file - either on the computer (local file) or on the instrument (remote device). On the
computer, the default storage directory is the download folder, but you can change the
directory using the download functions of your browser. On the instrument, the files are
saved in the internal storage.
You can also load reference waveforms and instrument settings from file to the instrument.
To save data to a file on the computer
1. Select the waveform or the device settings in the "Source" list.
2. Select the file "Format".
See also:
? Chapter 5.3, "Reference Waveforms", on page 70
3. For analog and digital channels, select the "Data" scope to be written.
4. Click "Save".

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on April 06, 2017, 03:05:31 am
OK, got it. So I set CH1 to take up all 20 Msamples of memory, did a trigger, then went to the save/recall page, and downloaded the entire 206MB text file. I'm only on 100 Mb Ethernet here, and it took about 200 seconds. (about 1MB/s) This was using Chrome.

I'll hook the scope directly to my PC, which is Gb Ethernet, tomorrow, and repeat the experiment.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on April 06, 2017, 03:09:30 am
Also, I'm *totally* digging the Remote Front Panel. It feels faster than the actual UI in some ways, and I find using the mouse on the web browser to be very quick, smooth, and intuitive. It just feels really snappy this way. I've never used a scope's web interface that I liked before. This is totally different.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: gslick on April 06, 2017, 03:38:29 am
OK, got it. So I set CH1 to take up all 20 Msamples of memory, did a trigger, then went to the save/recall page, and downloaded the entire 206MB text file. I'm only on 100 Mb Ethernet here, and it took about 200 seconds. (about 1MB/s) This was using Chrome.

Does the web browser interface also let you save the waveform data in REAL and UINT 8, 16, 32 binary data formats? The formats are described in section 9.8.1 Transfer of Waveform Data in the User Manual. For the same waveform data are the binary formats smaller and faster to transfer than the ASCII format?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: corax on April 06, 2017, 05:27:56 am
OK, got it. So I set CH1 to take up all 20 Msamples of memory, did a trigger, then went to the save/recall page, and downloaded the entire 206MB text file. I'm only on 100 Mb Ethernet here, and it took about 200 seconds. (about 1MB/s) This was using Chrome.

I'll hook the scope directly to my PC, which is Gb Ethernet, tomorrow, and repeat the experiment.

I played around a bit with the SCPI commands documented in the manual; over ethernet, the scope accepts SCPI commands on port 5025.
I used netcat on a Linux machine to pull the whole segment acquisition memory for a channel in REAL format:

echo -e "FORM REAL\nCHAN1:DATA:POIN MAX\nCHAN1:DATA?" | nc -q -1  192.168.200.60 5025 > out.bin
(scope is on address 192.168.200.60)

With the acquisition record length set to 10MSa, the resulting out.bin file is 40MB and transferred in about 25 sec.  I'm connected with 1Gbps ethernet.

The SCPI setup commands let you select REAL, UINT, or ASCII output formats as well as selecting either all segment data or only what's on the screen.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 06, 2017, 07:16:11 am
OK, got it. So I set CH1 to take up all 20 Msamples of memory, did a trigger, then went to the save/recall page, and downloaded the entire 206MB text file. I'm only on 100 Mb Ethernet here, and it took about 200 seconds. (about 1MB/s) This was using Chrome.

I'll hook the scope directly to my PC, which is Gb Ethernet, tomorrow, and repeat the experiment.

I played around a bit with the SCPI commands documented in the manual; over ethernet, the scope accepts SCPI commands on port 5025.
I used netcat on a Linux machine to pull the whole segment acquisition memory for a channel in REAL format:

echo -e "FORM REAL\nCHAN1:DATA:POIN MAX\nCHAN1:DATA?" | nc -q -1  192.168.200.60 5025 > out.bin
(scope is on address 192.168.200.60)

With the acquisition record length set to 10MSa, the resulting out.bin file is 40MB and transferred in about 25 sec.  I'm connected with 1Gbps ethernet.
So that is 12.8Mbits/s.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: corax on April 06, 2017, 07:45:29 am
So that is 12.8Mbits/s.

I don't know how efficient netcat is, though. Might have to write a small C program to find out where the bottleneck lies.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 06, 2017, 07:54:42 am
So that is 12.8Mbits/s.

I don't know how efficient netcat is, though. Might have to write a small C program to find out where the bottleneck lies.

I can get the same ~12MBit/sec with my RTB.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on April 06, 2017, 07:55:10 am
So that is 12.8Mbits/s.

I don't know how efficient netcat is, though. Might have to write a small C program to find out where the bottleneck lies.

Thank you very much for your tests. After ASCII and real: Could the real conversion be the bottleneck here? I remember that these embedded devices are better with integer than with real. But depends on the mcu.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: corax on April 06, 2017, 08:14:24 am
Thank you very much for your tests. After ASCII and real: Could the real conversion be the bottleneck here? I remember that these embedded devices are better with integer than with real. But depends on the mcu.

Doesn't look like it.  Trying the same test with UINT 8,16,32 results in about the same bitrate for the transfer by the looks of things.
Could still be limited by netcat though.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 06, 2017, 08:15:58 am
I testet with various format and been reading 20MSa channel data.

FormatData amountData rate
UINT820MByte12.3MBits/s
UINT1640MByte12.8MBits/s
REAL80MByte12.5MBits/s

For remote postprocessing REAL data a pretty comfortable, but with UINT you can reduce your processing time a lot cause of the lower transmission time.
You  can use CHAN:DATA:YINC?    CHAN:DATA:YOR?   to convert the data on your local PC.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 06, 2017, 08:52:40 am
OK, got it. So I set CH1 to take up all 20 Msamples of memory, did a trigger, then went to the save/recall page, and downloaded the entire 206MB text file. I'm only on 100 Mb Ethernet here, and it took about 200 seconds. (about 1MB/s) This was using Chrome.

Does the web browser interface also let you save the waveform data in REAL and UINT 8, 16, 32 binary data formats? The formats are described in section 9.8.1 Transfer of Waveform Data in the User Manual. For the same waveform data are the binary formats smaller and faster to transfer than the ASCII format?
I think it may be faster and/or more convenient to transfer data using the USB MTP mode - you can just drag files out of the folder in various formats
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 06, 2017, 09:56:14 am
OK, got it. So I set CH1 to take up all 20 Msamples of memory, did a trigger, then went to the save/recall page, and downloaded the entire 206MB text file. I'm only on 100 Mb Ethernet here, and it took about 200 seconds. (about 1MB/s) This was using Chrome.

Does the web browser interface also let you save the waveform data in REAL and UINT 8, 16, 32 binary data formats? The formats are described in section 9.8.1 Transfer of Waveform Data in the User Manual. For the same waveform data are the binary formats smaller and faster to transfer than the ASCII format?
I think it may be faster and/or more convenient to transfer data using the USB MTP mode - you can just drag files out of the folder in various formats

I tried the USB-TMC Connection ... and get about 13-15MBit/sec on my PC.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 06, 2017, 10:46:18 am
OK, got it. So I set CH1 to take up all 20 Msamples of memory, did a trigger, then went to the save/recall page, and downloaded the entire 206MB text file. I'm only on 100 Mb Ethernet here, and it took about 200 seconds. (about 1MB/s) This was using Chrome.

Does the web browser interface also let you save the waveform data in REAL and UINT 8, 16, 32 binary data formats? The formats are described in section 9.8.1 Transfer of Waveform Data in the User Manual. For the same waveform data are the binary formats smaller and faster to transfer than the ASCII format?
I think it may be faster and/or more convenient to transfer data using the USB MTP mode - you can just drag files out of the folder in various formats

I tried the USB-TMC Connection ... and get about 13-15MBit/sec on my PC.
Quick test shows about 8MBytes/sec exporting binary trace data via USB MTP
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on April 06, 2017, 12:26:52 pm
Oh dear, oh dear, the more videos I see of the RTB2004 the more I like it. Please stop because I'm about to pull the trigger. Thank you very much.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 06, 2017, 01:07:43 pm
OK, got it. So I set CH1 to take up all 20 Msamples of memory, did a trigger, then went to the save/recall page, and downloaded the entire 206MB text file. I'm only on 100 Mb Ethernet here, and it took about 200 seconds. (about 1MB/s) This was using Chrome.

I'll hook the scope directly to my PC, which is Gb Ethernet, tomorrow, and repeat the experiment.

I played around a bit with the SCPI commands documented in the manual; over ethernet, the scope accepts SCPI commands on port 5025.
I used netcat on a Linux machine to pull the whole segment acquisition memory for a channel in REAL format:

echo -e "FORM REAL\nCHAN1:DATA:POIN MAX\nCHAN1:DATA?" | nc -q -1  192.168.200.60 5025 > out.bin
(scope is on address 192.168.200.60)
I tried the same on my GW Instek. It needs 5 seconds to transfer 10Mpts in 16 bits format (approx 20MB of data) so that is around 30Mbit/s.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on April 06, 2017, 01:15:36 pm
For anyone who has one of these scopes - have you tried running the probe comp app? When I run mine on CH1, I can't get it to work - it says either the signal was not detected, or the amplitude was not high enough.

When I run it on CH2, 3 or 4, I don't get any errors, but no matter how I turn the three adjustments on the probe, the signal never looks close to square - it's very rounded. I feel like I'm missing some important step here. (Yes, I did connect the probe to the ground pin and the P0 pin of the pattern gen)

=====

I did a factory reset, and now CH1 is not giving me errors. However, I'm still not able to get a square shape with any of the probes that came with the unit.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on April 06, 2017, 01:30:26 pm
My probe comp worked fine on all four probes on all four channels. I only was a little disappointed that the otherwise nice step by step instruction does not tell you what the two screws on the BNC connectors side are exactly, it only shows turning the one that is further away from the scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 06, 2017, 01:41:30 pm
For anyone who has one of these scopes - have you tried running the probe comp app? When I run mine on CH1, I can't get it to work - it says either the signal was not detected, or the amplitude was not high enough.

When I run it on CH2, 3 or 4, I don't get any errors, but no matter how I turn the three adjustments on the probe, the signal never looks close to square - it's very rounded. I feel like I'm missing some important step here. (Yes, I did connect the probe to the ground pin and the P0 pin of the pattern gen)

=====

I did a factory reset, and now CH1 is not giving me errors. However, I'm still not able to get a square shape with any of the probes that came with the unit.
Do you have probes switched to x1 ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on April 06, 2017, 01:58:34 pm
For anyone who has one of these scopes - have you tried running the probe comp app? When I run mine on CH1, I can't get it to work - it says either the signal was not detected, or the amplitude was not high enough.

When I run it on CH2, 3 or 4, I don't get any errors, but no matter how I turn the three adjustments on the probe, the signal never looks close to square - it's very rounded. I feel like I'm missing some important step here. (Yes, I did connect the probe to the ground pin and the P0 pin of the pattern gen)

=====

I did a factory reset, and now CH1 is not giving me errors. However, I'm still not able to get a square shape with any of the probes that came with the unit.
Do you have probes switched to x1 ?

Uh, yup. Thanks Mike. That was my problem. In 10x the prob comp process worked just fine - all good now!

You would think they could have had that as a text 'hint' in the steps that walk you through the process.

Also, if the colors of each channel are fixed, why not put color printing next to each channel's BNC so that it's clear which probe to plug in where without having to turn on the channel to see it's little button light up with its color. Hmm.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 06, 2017, 02:07:51 pm
For anyone who has one of these scopes - have you tried running the probe comp app? When I run mine on CH1, I can't get it to work - it says either the signal was not detected, or the amplitude was not high enough.

When I run it on CH2, 3 or 4, I don't get any errors, but no matter how I turn the three adjustments on the probe, the signal never looks close to square - it's very rounded. I feel like I'm missing some important step here. (Yes, I did connect the probe to the ground pin and the P0 pin of the pattern gen)

=====

I did a factory reset, and now CH1 is not giving me errors. However, I'm still not able to get a square shape with any of the probes that came with the unit.
Do you have probes switched to x1 ?

Uh, yup. Thanks Mike. That was my problem. In 10x the prob comp process worked just fine - all good now!

You would think they could have had that as a text 'hint' in the steps that walk you through the process.
Yes, also look at what the probe settings were
Quote
Also, if the colors of each channel are fixed, why not put color printing next to each channel's BNC so that it's clear which probe to plug in where without having to turn on the channel to see it's little button light up with its color. Hmm.
Cost. And you should have put the colour rings on the probe lead. (would be nice if these were actually the right colours)


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on April 06, 2017, 02:19:13 pm
Cost. And you should have put the colour rings on the probe lead. (would be nice if these were actually the right colours)

Absolutely I did! Almost the first thing after I pulled them out of the box. But, which colors go to which BNC? That's what I'm getting at - without turning on the scope, and turning on each of the 4 channels, there are no graphic hints on the front face as to which color probe goes into which BNC.

I guess I can just draw it on with marker or something.  :D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MarkL on April 06, 2017, 02:42:31 pm
Can you tell how to get the circular segmented recording option without changing option-id-resistors or being sued/shot by Keysight?
It is/was available on the X2000 and X3000 series via the license hack as option SGMC.  You can read about it in the hack thread, starting around here:

  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dsox2000-and-3000-series-licence-have-anyone-tried-to-hack-that-scope/msg338637/#msg338637 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dsox2000-and-3000-series-licence-have-anyone-tried-to-hack-that-scope/msg338637/#msg338637)

As far as I know they haven't shot anyone yet for hacking.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: salviador on April 06, 2017, 02:51:54 pm
what is it the meter widget from the menu?
someone has a screen?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on April 06, 2017, 03:04:18 pm
what is it the meter widget from the menu?
someone has a screen?

You can add a little volt meter window (which you can move around the screen) to each channel. It can display DC, AC RMS, or DC + AC RMS volts. See this screenshot.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 06, 2017, 03:23:02 pm
what is it the meter widget from the menu?
someone has a screen?

You can add a little volt meter window (which you can move around the screen) to each channel. It can display DC, AC RMS, or DC + AC RMS volts. See this screenshot.

... with up to four measurements ( one each channel).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on April 06, 2017, 03:45:16 pm
YouTube seems to be very concerned that I miss new videos about my new baby.  I somewhat have the impression I saw them before but according to YouTube they are new:
https://youtu.be/_nsWKr4DvvU

https://youtu.be/JoXBJdwFsTs

https://youtu.be/gkM46kGsQf8
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on April 06, 2017, 03:55:59 pm
They are the same as on the rs website.  But now on YouTube
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on April 06, 2017, 03:57:51 pm
YouTube seems to be very concerned that I miss new videos about my new baby.  I somewhat have the impression I saw them before but according to YouTube they are new:

Please please please stop! :-)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 06, 2017, 04:13:50 pm
YouTube seems to be very concerned that I miss new videos about my new baby.  I somewhat have the impression I saw them before but according to YouTube they are new:

Please please please stop! :-)
no ... unless you buy one :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ElectronMan on April 06, 2017, 04:41:23 pm
After giving Newark 48hrs to contact my bank and get the order back on track, I called back to find out they "forgot"... Finally got it worked out and it has shipped.

So I should have it Friday to mess with.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 06, 2017, 04:46:26 pm
Newark site shows $7920 for the RTB2K-COM4 bundle and stock level is going down consistently (only 6 in stock now)

http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?st=rtb2004&gs=true&ddkey=http%3Aen-US%2FElement14_US%2Fw%2Fc%2Ftest-measurement%2Foscilloscopes%2Fmixed-signal-mixed-domain-oscilloscopes-mso-mdo (http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?st=rtb2004&gs=true&ddkey=http%3Aen-US%2FElement14_US%2Fw%2Fc%2Ftest-measurement%2Foscilloscopes%2Fmixed-signal-mixed-domain-oscilloscopes-mso-mdo)

Are people really buying it at full price?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on April 06, 2017, 05:09:55 pm
Newark site shows $7920 for the RTB2K-COM4 bundle and stock level is going down consistently (only 6 in stock now)

Are people really buying it at full price?

While not impossible I think it's safe to say no. If there truly are new sales going through, it may be worth it to call them and ask about the promo price. Could be they're just not showing/allowing it online.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on April 06, 2017, 06:36:00 pm
Are people really buying it at full price?
While not impossible I think it's safe to say no.

I haven't bothered looking at in-stock numbers, but I have to wonder if R&S factory installs the options, or if its at the distributor (I assume they didn't pass that to the customer to do, but again, really lean would drive that to be). Based on lean manufacturing and other similar drives to have as little on-hand inventory, it would make sense, both for R&S and for the distributor to only have a few physical pieces of inventory on hand as possible (less money tied up in stock, better inventory turns).  If so, then all the RTB2002s could be a pool and all the RTB2004s could be another.      EDIT: I guess actually 4 pools, since I think the MSO is a physical option? I forget that this scope also comes without it right?    Also having just 4 pools greatly reduces errors of trying to figure out and send the right scope with all the right options to the right customer.  Far easier to grab 1 of 4  (2 no mso, 2 mso, 4, no mso, 4 mso) then tossing in the product codes for the bandwidth and decodes, and then final ship. (While my company doesn't make scopes, we basically do the same thing, custom configure at setup so we only have to have 1 model, and in our case 2 optional pieces installed by field service at setup plus software.. granted we physically setup all our instruments for customers, but you'd expect that for a 7 figure device.)

But also could be as stated, people getting the better deal on the down-low, or simply buying the regular scope with the exact same options as the fully loaded, for the new list price of $6k instead of $8k.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on April 06, 2017, 07:09:59 pm
EDIT: I guess actually 4 pools, since I think the MSO is a physical option?

The MSO is an add on: the cable and the license option, so I'd think 2 pools would be enough. You need to open the box anyway to install the license keys so to drop in the MSO cable is not going to be difficult.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on April 06, 2017, 07:23:47 pm
Thanks to all who posted useful info in the thread - you've suckered me into buying my third scope!

Regarding Newark, they couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery.
Their web support staff were very friendly and explained that the $8k price was there because the system wouldn't work correctly with the promo price, and that I should ring or email the sales&quotes team instead, as web support couldn't do anything.
That was where the friendliness stopped - sales were rude, unhelpful and condescending on the phone and quotes (via email) gave a canned response that ignored what I asked and then didn't reply to my follow-up. Seems that just calling or emailing from outside of the US means that you're not worth talking to - I was wanting to ship to a residential US address (i.e. not a re-shipper) with US payment methods, but I didn't even get far enough to explain that.

After giving up dealing with those idiots I managed to find another US stockist with great customer service and a unit left to sell, which is now on the way to a friend to hold until I arrive in the US.

On another note, while the prices in Europe suck compared to the US $2k deal, my dealings with the UK R&S staff have been very positive and friendly - while they couldn't match the US price they tried their best for a max-1-unit-purchasing hobbyist and got prompt answers about a technical query I had. This (plus worldwide support) was a major reason behind my decision to buy the scope in the end.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on April 06, 2017, 08:01:02 pm
Another minor issue I noticed: If you have more than one web browser connected to the scope's remote front panel page, one or more of the browser's screen updates may get corrupted or take a long time to update - i.e. not follow the 'real' screen in real time. With only one browser connected, this problem is not seen.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on April 06, 2017, 10:49:00 pm
Another minor issue I noticed: If you have more than one web browser connected to the scope's remote front panel page, one or more of the browser's screen updates may get corrupted or take a long time to update - i.e. not follow the 'real' screen in real time. With only one browser connected, this problem is not seen.

I would say that was to be expected.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 06, 2017, 11:03:05 pm
Another minor issue I noticed: If you have more than one web browser connected to the scope's remote front panel page, one or more of the browser's screen updates may get corrupted or take a long time to update - i.e. not follow the 'real' screen in real time. With only one browser connected, this problem is not seen.

I would say that was to be expected.
Yes - the only thing I'd expect is for it to not crash the scope, though it would be nice if it just bounced the second connection with an "I'm busy" message.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on April 06, 2017, 11:10:00 pm
Another minor issue I noticed: If you have more than one web browser connected to the scope's remote front panel page, one or more of the browser's screen updates may get corrupted or take a long time to update - i.e. not follow the 'real' screen in real time. With only one browser connected, this problem is not seen.

I would say that was to be expected.
Yes - the only thing I'd expect is for it to not crash the scope, though it would be nice if it just bounced the second connection with an "I'm busy" message.

It certainly does not crash the scope, and in fact works _pretty_ much OK. Every now and then, as you click buttons and change things and menus come and go, remnants of the old screens 'stick around' so you get confused as to what's going on. A refresh of the page always solves the problem though.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on April 07, 2017, 01:22:07 pm
Quick question - when adjusting the trigger, there is a solid yellow line at the actual trigger level, and then there's a dashed yellow line a little ways below the trigger level that moves with the trigger.

What's the dashed line mean?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 07, 2017, 01:28:30 pm
Quick question - when adjusting the trigger, there is a solid yellow line at the actual trigger level, and then there's a dashed yellow line a little ways below the trigger level that moves with the trigger.

What's the dashed line mean?
It shows the hysteresis - when you change slope it changes to being above the solid line, and in dual slope mode you get 2 dashed lines.
In pulse mode, where you can select hysteresis, the distance changes
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 07, 2017, 09:02:59 pm
Ugh, my scope was not delivered as it was supposed to be. Has been sitting in Denver since 1AM and hasn't moved ( I'm an hour away ). Should have been delivered today.

Maybe tomorrow......
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on April 07, 2017, 09:44:22 pm
Joel, it could be worse - UPS is showing mine as "Left at: Front Door" (of an apartment block) with nobody home yet to check.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 07, 2017, 10:37:31 pm
Dang, I would have left work and raced home to get it inside ( I'm pretty free to do that kind of thing ). My worry is last time a package was late, the box was destroyed. Fortunately the contents were OK. Buying this scope has just been one headache after another. Hope all is good in the end.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on April 07, 2017, 11:54:51 pm
Dang, I would have left work and raced home to get it inside ( I'm pretty free to do that kind of thing ). My worry is last time a package was late, the box was destroyed. Fortunately the contents were OK. Buying this scope has just been one headache after another. Hope all is good in the end.
Hah, I'm 3,500 miles away right now in London so can't just pop over from work; sent to friend's place, will be over to pick it up at the end of the month. Just got word that it showed up, so all is indeed good! The 3 week wait will be painful, but the >$1k I saved is worth it (it paid for 2 return flights for a long weekend in NYC).

I'm also pretty flexible with work to pop home if needed, and they have also specifically stated that employees are welcome to get anything they want delivered to work rather than home to avoid this problem - it's an easy and cheap way to help the employees out and make them happier. Was particularly hilarious too when someone ordered 3 tonnes of soil and out of habit put the work address rather than home!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: WackyGerman on April 08, 2017, 10:23:17 am
I really like the functionality of the scope but I hate the glossy display  :-- :-- :--. Why the hell did they do that ?  :palm:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on April 08, 2017, 11:29:32 am
I really like the functionality of the scope but I hate the glossy display  :-- :-- :--. Why the hell did they do that ?  :palm:

probably they thought it looks nicer? And In personally at least agree to the point that glossy displays have shinier colours.

But if you care invest 2€ and go for a anti-glare foil as Mike suggested:
Anti-glare screen protector makes a huge difference to screen shininess - time will tell how durable it is but at £2.49 for two it's hardly a big deal if it needs replacing every so often.
I used this one, cut down
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191778503815?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191778503815?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on April 08, 2017, 11:37:44 am
Played around a bit with remote commands today on my box and found a neat way to find out the right command I wanted to share with you.

Historically if I needed a remote command I digged through the manual, which by the way seems to be still growing for the RTB2000? (at least every time I open it I have a new chapter  :o ??)

Instead for the RTB2000 I use this awesome USB connection and just copy the setting file (setup) directly after preset and take a second one after setting all settings. Doing a quick compare using KDIFF3 (or any other comparison app) and I have all the remote commands I need  8)

Never got this so easy. That's a big  :-+ R&S!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on April 08, 2017, 11:38:32 am
I really like the functionality of the scope but I hate the glossy display  :-- :-- :--. Why the hell did they do that ?  :palm:

My laptop has one of these and most of the time I don't even notice the reflections, but with dark/black backgrounds it's quite a problem yes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: WackyGerman on April 08, 2017, 12:59:17 pm
Yes I also have a laptop with a glossy display and the reflection is a real problem . Outside it is next to unuseable . My personal opinion is that the glossy display is beside the point . It is a tool and not a status symbol which is put in a glas rack and only has to be touched with white gloves to avoid fingerprints . I want to work with it and don t want to clean it every 15 minutes because it looks like shit . I don t like the glossy display trend at all , but there everyone has it s own opinion . Maybe I am too old fashioned in this case
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 08, 2017, 02:01:25 pm
I tend to not like glossy screens either. Like others have mentioned, I will add a screen protector if I find it too annoying.

Mine finally made it to my local post office this morning, hope to have it in my hands this afternoon.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AndyP on April 08, 2017, 04:10:12 pm
Quite a few of the features on the RTB2000 are also on the RTM2000 'scope for those needing a higher spec offering. No touch screen though, but several other features similar, we bought a fully loaded mixed signal RTM2000 for marginally less than a KS MSO 3000.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 08, 2017, 09:19:29 pm
My scope finally showed up today. Box was beat ( a pretty light weight box ) and the packaging is marginal. My scope came without any protective cover on the screen, scope was just in an anti static bag.

As my first go with it I connected it to my signal generator and I could not get a stable trigger looking at a 100MHz sine wave. After a few minutes of fusing with it, started to get things to look OK. I'll have to play a bit to make sure it's not me.

All the documentation I got is in German.

Is this how everyone else got their scopes?

Right now my first impressions are mixed.

Joel
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 08, 2017, 11:25:21 pm
OK, now I've had a chance to play a little more and I am happy with the scope.

I do notice I have a hard time acquiring very low level signals. When I set my signal generator say to -40dbm I cannot get a good trigger. If I go to say -20dbm, I get a trigger and then lower the level from there and stay triggered.

Is there a way to set a screen blanking time? I have not found it in the manual or menus yet.



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thanasisk on April 09, 2017, 12:47:43 am
Played around a bit with remote commands today on my box and found a neat way to find out the right command I wanted to share with you.

Historically if I needed a remote command I digged through the manual, which by the way seems to be still growing for the RTB2000? (at least every time I open it I have a new chapter  :o ??)

Instead for the RTB2000 I use this awesome USB connection and just copy the setting file (setup) directly after preset and take a second one after setting all settings. Doing a quick compare using KDIFF3 (or any other comparison app) and I have all the remote commands I need  8)

Never got this so easy. That's a big  :-+ R&S!

This is cool

Have you tested the peak search function on the fft/math channel?

According to the datasheet:

Search function
Functions search types edge, width, peak, rise/fall time, runt,
data2clock, pattern, protocol (available
with R&S®RTB-K3 option)
configuration manual level setting, adjustable hysteresis
display of search events in diagram (markers) and in result table
Sources R&S®RTB2002 channel 1, channel 2,
math waveform, D0 to D15
(with R&S®RTB-B1 option)
R&S®RTB2004 channel 1, channel 2, channel 3,
channel 4, math waveform, D0 to D15
(with R&S®RTB-B1 option)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 09, 2017, 03:02:38 am
Now I'm getting to know what the scope can and can't do. I pushed the scope quite a bit with low level high frequency sine wave from my signal generator. Granted I think the only reason it is working is the repetitive wave form but it does give me an idea of what it can do. Attached are two captures, one at 900MHz and one at 1GHz. The frequency counter seems to quit around 500MHz. Ignoring attenuation and other issues, not too bad.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on April 09, 2017, 03:16:58 am
Serious question: why do you test at 300MHz scope at 900MHz and 1GHz?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 09, 2017, 03:29:16 am
To learn its limitations as a useful tool. Most scopes will go beyond their spec'd frequency.  Pushing a sine wave is pretty easy and it was just easy for me to do. I need better probes before I can test real limitations. There are issues that will creep in but if you are aware of them you can usually work with it. It all depends what you want to do.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rf-loop on April 09, 2017, 07:27:23 am
Serious question: why do you test at 300MHz scope at 900MHz and 1GHz?

It is also important to know analog front end bandwidth.

Sorry this image txt is finnish language but main thing is perhaps clear.
Note that many times oscilloscopes nameplate BW is over image fBW usually 1.3 - 1.8x when signal is directly connected to 50 ohm input with good impedance match. (combination BW, Probe + scope front is other case)

(http://www.siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X/f-resp-drawp-cc.jpg)

In image all what is in grey area (A) produce alias.
If want be sure that there is not high amount of aliasing then analog front end need filter out all frequency components what go over fNyquist
In these images can not see how much high frequencies are attenuated, only can see that it can trig and produce sinewave image. But also, in these  images signal do not go to fNyquist what is in this case 1.25GHz. If this scope use not interleaved mode then samplerate maax is 1.25GSa/s and then fNyquist is 625MHz.

Many cheap oscilloscopes have analog front end what go far over  fNyquist  so that signal level is still high when reach  fNyquist.  In these cases specially with signals what have high frequency components, example fast edges, measurements may be total false due to aliasing.

For serious use it is very good to know true analog front end frequency bandwidth and BW shape also up to least  fNyquist.  Many times these "hackers" do not understand this at all or other reason is that just only do not care. Only what they understand (or want) is how much MHz and thinking that more is better. I have never seen "hacker" or modifier who make his equipment better so that they reduce BW and make BW shape more steep so that  fNyquist is enough attenuated.


But most important is: Know your tools. This may need many kind of tests before serious use.

If I can hope I like to see this R&S high class scope real analog front end BW shape  from 0 to 1.2GHz.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 09, 2017, 08:36:17 am
If you look towards the oscilloscope, probes and the object under test as a system then it quickly becomes clear that having excess margin for the anti-aliasing filter isn't necessary. Let's say your are looking at a 75MHz square wave from a digital circuit on a 200MHz 500Ms/s scope with a standard 1:10 high impedance probe. The 5th harmonic of that 75MHz square wave will be at 375MHz and have a level of -14dB referenced to the 75MHz fundamental. If I look at my scope the anti-aliasing filter attenuates by about 10dB at 375MHz. The output resistance of logic is typically 33 Ohm. The probe impedance at 375MHz and 10pf capacitance is is 42 Ohm so that is (off the cuff) another 3dB. All in all the 5th harmonic appears 27dB (10^(27/20) = 22 times) lower than the fundamental at the ADC's input. If the signal is displayed with 3 divisions (in the real world you will have multiple signals on screen) then the 375MHz harmonic (mirrored to 125MHz due to aliasing) will occupy around 0.125 division. That probably won't even show due to the noise.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on April 09, 2017, 09:38:16 am
Serious question: why do you test at 300MHz scope at 900MHz and 1GHz?

First thing you do when get something new (scope, car, wife) is test for limits. Then you can be sure it will be ok under normal usage... But must watch out, your limits may be also subject to tests... :P
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 09, 2017, 02:36:25 pm
To add a little more to the other good explanations,

Lets say I'm looking at a digital bus, it's more than can I see a 300MHz digital signal flying across. What defects can I expect to catch on those fast rising/falling edges, will I see that non monotonic glitch that is causing my logic to get stupid?

If things are repetitive, It is easier to build a waveform and eventually see it, things that are one shot are much harder to capture and are more scope HW limited.

As has been mentioned, there are many aspects that limit what you can do. Pushing the scope is how you learn those limits.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on April 09, 2017, 04:21:03 pm
Thanks for all your explanations. I understand Shannon-Nyquist of course, but it never came to my mind that I would need to look deeply into the scope behavior above the stated BW or even close to it's sample rate. I would have assumed that the front end is built in a way so that everything above nyquist is sufficiently suppressed. So that aliasing (at least at full sample rate) does not occur (I know that sampler rate changes with time base, Nr of channels and so forth...). At least on an A-brand scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 09, 2017, 04:27:50 pm
Having a small margin for the anti-aliasing filter to work can also be found on A-brand scopes but you'll have to look at higher bandwidth models especially with multiple channels on.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 09, 2017, 04:57:22 pm
So, I still haven't found automatic screen blanking, does it exist?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 09, 2017, 06:51:10 pm
So, I still haven't found automatic screen blanking, does it exist?
If you mean a screensaver, I don't think there is one - I've certainly not seen it.
 But why would you want it ? LCDs don't burn in to any noticeable degree.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 09, 2017, 06:59:54 pm
They actually do and it's not as difficult as you think. There's also the life of the backlight.

I've seen LCD panels damaged after a couple of years of constant static images.

Then personal preference, I just rather have it dim after a time I can set.

So, I still haven't found automatic screen blanking, does it exist?
If you mean a screensaver, I don't think there is one - I've certainly not seen it.
 But why would you want it ? LCDs don't burn in to any noticeable degree.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on April 09, 2017, 07:07:12 pm
@mike: didn't you show the screensaver here: https://twitter.com/mikelectricstuf/status/846419601529430019
Roflmaopimp
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on April 10, 2017, 12:53:59 pm
Another review of this scope on youtube ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqyVAHUIBRo&t=79s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqyVAHUIBRo&t=79s)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: voltsandjolts on April 10, 2017, 01:21:24 pm
Wow, that sure is a very clean bench.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: eb4eqa on April 10, 2017, 07:34:52 pm
Being colorblind I have a hard time telling CH1 from CH2 in my Agilent DSO-X3012A, which are Green and Yellow (I can't tell you which is which...). It would be fantastic to have yellow and blue for example, but it can't be adjusted.

I have been unable to find a reference to this on the RTB2000 manual. Can someone confirm if the colors can actually be changed? That would be a great selling point for us colorblinds....

Thank you,
Roberto

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 10, 2017, 07:48:57 pm
Being colorblind I have a hard time telling CH1 from CH2 in my Agilent DSO-X3012A, which are Green and Yellow (I can't tell you which is which...). It would be fantastic to have yellow and blue for example, but it can't be adjusted.

I have been unable to find a reference to this on the RTB2000 manual. Can someone confirm if the colors can actually be changed? That would be a great selling point for us colorblinds....

Thank you,
Roberto
They can't be changed, though there are a couple of "rainbow" colour modes, which you might be able to use on one trace to differentiate it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on April 10, 2017, 08:26:37 pm
Being colorblind I have a hard time telling CH1 from CH2 in my Agilent DSO-X3012A, which are Green and Yellow (I can't tell you which is which...). It would be fantastic to have yellow and blue for example, but it can't be adjusted.

I have been unable to find a reference to this on the RTB2000 manual. Can someone confirm if the colors can actually be changed? That would be a great selling point for us colorblinds....

Thank you,
Roberto
Oh yeah. I have the same problem. And as EVERY 20th male is effected, I am wondering for years why nobody ever had the idea of allowing a user defined color for each channel (even a selection list with just 16 entries would be fine). A scope with such a feature would have indeed a BIG USP!!!
If you are interested in this desease see here: http://www.color-blindness.com/deuteranopia-red-green-color-blindness/ (http://www.color-blindness.com/deuteranopia-red-green-color-blindness/)
Test out yourself. Maybe you will find out that you are affected too (I found out not before I was 18 by doing such a test but was always wondering how difficult the decoding of color coded resistors were for me). Test here: http://enchroma.com/test/instructions/ (http://enchroma.com/test/instructions/)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 10, 2017, 08:32:08 pm
Being colorblind I have a hard time telling CH1 from CH2 in my Agilent DSO-X3012A, which are Green and Yellow (I can't tell you which is which...). It would be fantastic to have yellow and blue for example, but it can't be adjusted.

I have been unable to find a reference to this on the RTB2000 manual. Can someone confirm if the colors can actually be changed? That would be a great selling point for us colorblinds....

Thank you,
Roberto
Oh yeah. I have the same problem. And as EVERY 20th male is effected, I am wondering for years why nobody ever had the idea of allowing a user defined color for each channel (even a selection list with just 16 entries would be fine). A scope with such a feature would have indeed a BIG USP!!!
Tektronix was ahead then with their TDS500/600/700 series. These allow to set/change all colors for the traces, user interface and hardcopy output.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on April 10, 2017, 08:39:31 pm
Being colorblind I have a hard time telling CH1 from CH2 in my Agilent DSO-X3012A, which are Green and Yellow (I can't tell you which is which...). It would be fantastic to have yellow and blue for example, but it can't be adjusted.

Will you be able to pick 4 colors that you can easily tell apart from each other?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on April 10, 2017, 09:17:31 pm
A scope with such a feature would have indeed a BIG USP!!!

Mine can do any RGB, incl background, grid etc.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on April 11, 2017, 01:04:53 am
Being colorblind I have a hard time telling CH1 from CH2 in my Agilent DSO-X3012A, which are Green and Yellow (I can't tell you which is which...). It would be fantastic to have yellow and blue for example, but it can't be adjusted.

I have been unable to find a reference to this on the RTB2000 manual. Can someone confirm if the colors can actually be changed? That would be a great selling point for us colorblinds....

Thank you,
Roberto
Oh yeah. I have the same problem. And as EVERY 20th male is effected, I am wondering for years why nobody ever had the idea of allowing a user defined color for each channel (even a selection list with just 16 entries would be fine). A scope with such a feature would have indeed a BIG USP!!!
Tektronix was ahead then with their TDS500/600/700 series. These allow to set/change all colors for the traces, user interface and hardcopy output.

Another thing these scopes got right was to allow the trigger to be set at 10% and 90% screen locations instead of the default 50% ;)

cheers
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Someone on April 11, 2017, 01:21:03 am
Being colorblind I have a hard time telling CH1 from CH2 in my Agilent DSO-X3012A, which are Green and Yellow (I can't tell you which is which...). It would be fantastic to have yellow and blue for example, but it can't be adjusted.
Well, for the correct use of these 4 channel scopes which share (interleave,bond,etc) the adjacent channels you would use channels 1 and 3 (or 2 and 4) when only using 2 channels to maximise the memory depth and sampling rate. This is common across these R&S scopes and from the other majors Tek, Keysight, Lecroy etc

So in normal use the 2 channels of a 4 channel scope would be yellow and blue.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bitwelder on April 11, 2017, 04:45:44 am
Oh yeah. I have the same problem. And as EVERY 20th male is effected, I am wondering for years why nobody ever had the idea of allowing a user defined color for each channel (even a selection list with just 16 entries would be fine). A scope with such a feature would have indeed a BIG USP!!!
For colorblind people, would it work if instead of using different colors for the traces the scope would use different 'pen styles', like continuous line, dotted, dashed, etc. ?
That would be useful also for non-colorblind people with screen hard-copies on colorblind b/w printers.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 11, 2017, 07:30:12 am
Using different shapes to draw a waveform are nice ideas. But you´ll loose a lot of information about noise and your true signal if you just draw the waveform with fat point or a dashed line. And with a min. amount of 10kSa on the RTB this is nearly useless with about 10Samples per pixel column. The effect of a 'dots only' vs. a regular drawn waveform can only be seen if you have around 1Sa/px. Which is done on the fastest timebases.

So in case of color blind people  the changeing of the colors would be the more practical way to support this.

BTW ...  on references R&S offers of full set of colors for each reference waveform.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on April 11, 2017, 07:32:32 am
Oh yeah. I have the same problem. And as EVERY 20th male is effected, I am wondering for years why nobody ever had the idea of allowing a user defined color for each channel (even a selection list with just 16 entries would be fine). A scope with such a feature would have indeed a BIG USP!!!
For colorblind people, would it work if instead of using different colors for the traces the scope would use different 'pen styles', like continuous line, dotted, dashed, etc. ?
That would be useful also for non-colorblind people with screen hard-copies on colorblind b/w printers.

That would be too much work load for the display routines and it would slow down the scope. However, most color blind people are having a 'only' a red/green weakness - with all nuances.

And it differs how large an object is and what the shade (color mix / brightness) is. E.g. I cannot recognize a small red object on green gras. I should be lucky, that I am not a bird: I would not be able to find the red berries in a hedge from the distance and would starve to death. Only if I get close enough I am able to realize them. Two 10" papers one pure red and one pure green in front of me are easy to differentiate. A traffic light in front of me is easy - 200 meters away I cannot tell you for sure if it shows red or green - but the brightness for me is usually a good indicator). Same with LEDs: I cannot tell if a LED is red, yellow or green (this is why I HATE this duo-LEDs). If they are side by side I can see a difference, but with a single LED is impossible for me to see if it is red or yellow or green. The lane assist in my car uses a duo LED to show if it is active or now - I cannot see the difference. Now if the manufacturer at least would have made red (or green) a bit brighter or darker I would be able to recognize the difference - but they did not :--

And indeed on my MSOX3000 I used channel 1+3. However, I did purchase a 4 channel scope, as I often need 3 or 4 channels.
Thus: if a scope would offer the possibility to have a userdefined color for each channel, anybody would be able to select his favourites which would be the easiest to recognize/differentiate for him. It would be no big deal to add this to the software (as I said, a set of 16 different colors would be enough - so no 16 million RGB selector is needed). So developers listen: If somebody is interested, I would be glad to provide RGB colors which are easy to recognize / differentiate for the 5% men with a red/green weakness.
But this has nothing to do with the R&S scope, so lets close this discussion here and focus on the RTB2000 scope.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on April 11, 2017, 07:35:36 am
Quote
BTW ...  on references R&S offers of full set of colors for each reference waveform.
:-+ OH - so they would just need to add this for every channel. Maybe there is a scope god......
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 11, 2017, 08:12:18 am
'Pure' colors like yellow / green / cyan are often used cause of their higher contrast to a black background ( and the contrast within the color itself ).
And the color sensitivity to the human eye ... so a pure blue waveforn would be stupid.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on April 11, 2017, 08:15:14 am
'Pure' colors like yellow / green / cyan are often used cause of their higher contrast to a black background.
And the color sensitivity to the human eye ... so a pure blue waveforn would be stupid.
Not for inverted imagery like on a PC screen. (white background)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 11, 2017, 08:17:50 am
'Pure' colors like yellow / green / cyan are often used cause of their higher contrast to a black background.
And the color sensitivity to the human eye ... so a pure blue waveforn would be stupid.
Not for inverted imagery like on a PC screen. (white background)

Sure ...  have you ever needed a scope with white background? Except printing on paper ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on April 11, 2017, 08:26:01 am
The RTB2004 is definitely a beautiful scope, but way out of my budget! I do however like the HMO1002, and have messaged the local R&S distributor begging for a discount or package deal  ;D (The logic probe for it is "#¤%/ $445 USD!)

Anyone had a play with the HMO1002? How does it compare to the DSOX1102G? They are the same price here. Damn it's hard deciding on a new scope these days  :-\



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 11, 2017, 01:10:48 pm
The RTB2004 is definitely a beautiful scope, but way out of my budget! I do however like the HMO1002, and have messaged the local R&S distributor begging for a discount or package deal  ;D (The logic probe for it is "#¤%/ $445 USD!)

Anyone had a play with the HMO1002? How does it compare to the DSOX1102G? They are the same price here. Damn it's hard deciding on a new scope these days  :-\
The DSOX1102G has only 1 digital input (shared with External Trigger Input)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 11, 2017, 01:42:44 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvepxIvy45U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvepxIvy45U)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_FBwu2K7j0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_FBwu2K7j0)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: oh2hyt on April 12, 2017, 03:58:11 am
Does the RTB2k take measurements using display time frame of sample memory (a bit like Tek) or from displayed data (like KS, requires zoom in to see valid rise time)?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on April 12, 2017, 01:01:14 pm
As far as I remember from the last time a few days ago when I played around with it, as long as the sample rate is high enough, it measures the correct rise time. So the answer would be memory. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Tight scpe BNC connectors
Post by: agdr on April 13, 2017, 09:09:19 pm
The BNC connectors on my R&S seem exceptionally "tight", in terms of little clearance between the circular ground barrel and the BNC female plug when pushed on.  These are Pomona BNC to BNC cables from Mouser, which should be about as standard as things get.  I've used these cables with all sorts of other equipment here and haven't had a problem.  The issue does seem to be with the R&S scope's BNC plugs.  They work, but require a bit of force each time to get the BNC cable on and off. 

Is anyone else experiencing this?  On one hand it is probably a good thing in terms of a solid connection.  On the other that gold plating, or whatever it is, isn't going to be on there long at this rate.  Also a bit concerning knowing these BNC plugs and held on by just solder on the PC board, no nut to the chassis.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 13, 2017, 09:27:34 pm
I just tried about every BNC I have, several cable types, a 50Ohm terminator, a BNC to N adapter... everything fit fine. The probes that came with it were the tightest fitting thing I have.

Joel
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on April 13, 2017, 10:49:58 pm
Thanks for the test!  Hmmm...... might just be a few random ones like this one.  All 4 input BNCs on this one are tight.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on April 14, 2017, 01:36:33 pm
How does this scope handle SPI decodes ? Does it use the whole acquisition memory or just what is being displayed on the screen ? Can you search through the captured record for a certain byte pattern ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 14, 2017, 04:28:10 pm
How does this scope handle SPI decodes ? Does it use the whole acquisition memory or just what is being displayed on the screen ? Can you search through the captured record for a certain byte pattern ?
You can zoom in an decode anything in the acquisition memory, as well as showing a simultaneous full/zoomed view.
There is a "Protocol" entry in the "search type " manu but it's greyed out - according to help this should be able to search for trigger events but AFAICS it doesn't appear to work (tried with UART trigger)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on April 14, 2017, 07:38:14 pm

Another thing these scopes got right was to allow the trigger to be set at 10% and 90% screen locations instead of the default 50% ;)


The Agilents let you choose that too, but none of the cheap-ish scopes istm.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on April 14, 2017, 07:59:05 pm
Mike, an update to the RTB2000 user manual was recently released, the main addition being a chapter on Serial Bus Analysis. In the UART section it said this about the bitrate... <pic>
So I'm optimistic the limit you found was a bug and eventually they'll bring it up to this number.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: eb4eqa on April 14, 2017, 10:09:47 pm
Being colorblind I have a hard time telling CH1 from CH2 in my Agilent DSO-X3012A, which are Green and Yellow (I can't tell you which is which...). It would be fantastic to have yellow and blue for example, but it can't be adjusted.

Will you be able to pick 4 colors that you can easily tell apart from each other?

Yes, BLUE, RED, YELLOW & WHITE would do it (essentially avoiding colors that differ mostly on green or red component). And I would be happy with just TWO traces thank you :D

My old Lecroy Waverunner LT342 allowed for selecting the color of the traces. I regret having sold that scope...

Roberto
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 14, 2017, 10:18:33 pm
As the R&S already has a menu  for trace colour, it would be trivial to add a few other colour options, unless maybe it had knock-on effects on FPGA rendering etc., though the existing rainbow and invert intensity modes suggest there is probably a pallette lookup table somewhere.
With the RGB front-panel LEDs they could even make the buttons the corresponding colour. 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 14, 2017, 11:05:20 pm
How does this scope handle SPI decodes ? Does it use the whole acquisition memory or just what is being displayed on the screen ? Can you search through the captured record for a certain byte pattern ?
You can zoom in an decode anything in the acquisition memory, as well as showing a simultaneous full/zoomed view.
There is a "Protocol" entry in the "search type " manu but it's greyed out - according to help this should be able to search for trigger events but AFAICS it doesn't appear to work (tried with UART trigger)
Looking at the updated manual (P152), it only explicitly mentions search in conjunction with CAN and LIN trigger.
Not sure why they would implement on some protocols and not others.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 14, 2017, 11:06:11 pm
Some photos of RTB2000 can be seen here. https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipORowip50d0SIq26g0MoEzFVsTgVzNOSNdIfmpnJGQBGxmgobQva7xiLUPnVpOzMA?key=VFljbVQ0aEVGdENwTV9sMmotV3g3cmx3SWNOS2dR
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on April 15, 2017, 12:33:16 am
How does this scope handle SPI decodes ? Does it use the whole acquisition memory or just what is being displayed on the screen ? Can you search through the captured record for a certain byte pattern ?
You can zoom in an decode anything in the acquisition memory, as well as showing a simultaneous full/zoomed view.
There is a "Protocol" entry in the "search type " manu but it's greyed out - according to help this should be able to search for trigger events but AFAICS it doesn't appear to work (tried with UART trigger)

Search is a great feature to have which I have seen on some Tek scopes. Probably on the to-do list with this scope ;)

On another topic have you measured the waveform update rate ? Does it slow down with measurements or protocol decoding switched on like the Tek MDO scopes do ?

cheers
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: oh2hyt on April 15, 2017, 01:29:47 am
And if you start measuring wfm/s, include also different memory depths. Also segmented memory / history on vs. off - if it can be turned off?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on April 15, 2017, 05:32:07 am
And if you start measuring wfm/s, include also different memory depths. Also segmented memory / history on vs. off - if it can be turned off?

There will be  a sweet spot which yields the best performance. Usually displaying a 1 MHz signal yields the best capture rate on most scopes. However it will be interesting to see how performance deteriorates with various options switched on. Perhaps Mike can do a video on this ;)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 15, 2017, 08:13:49 am
Only done some very brief tests on update rate - definitely does decrease with higher memory.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: theatrus on April 15, 2017, 10:06:17 pm
Hit a case of a bad out-of-box failure on my RTB2004 (COM4 bundle at the promo price from Newark, last one in stock last week).

Effectively, the vertical system .. doesn't work. At all. Full span noise at every vertical setting. And then Channels 1-3 stopped display anything, and the UI had multi-second lag when they were enabled, leaving channel 4 as the only noise generator.

On the upside, even though it was past business hours on Friday when I sent in the support e-mail, I got a response phone call back in minutes. Sadly the front-line tech wasn't able to diagnose much other than "it sounds broken" but they'll follow up Monday. Hoping for a faster exchange option compared to returning it to Newark. 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on April 15, 2017, 10:46:59 pm
@theatrus - I just PM'd you.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 16, 2017, 02:31:40 am
In case anyone is still looking, Alliedelec shows 2 promos in stock.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 16, 2017, 02:41:11 am
Has anyone picked up the front cover for these scopes? any impressions? When not using the scope, it's pushed back on my desk, but seems it would be nice to not worry about punching the face of the scope when doing other things.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on April 16, 2017, 03:15:52 am
In case anyone is still looking, Alliedelec shows 2 promos in stock.

Good find!  Here is a direct link:

http://www.alliedelec.com/rohde-and-schwarz-rtb2k-com4-launch-edition-/70979679/ (http://www.alliedelec.com/rohde-and-schwarz-rtb2k-com4-launch-edition-/70979679/)

Also this cryptic note in the posting:

For additional quantity inquiries, please contact your local sales office.
This item may not be backordered online. Maximum order amount is 2.


I'll take a guess that note translates to "if you call us we can order a few more at the promo price once the two in stock are sold".
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on April 16, 2017, 04:52:21 am
This one also looks interesting
http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261 (http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261)

Seems like somebody got a nUS package and now sells it on eBay? And he is shipping worldwide! I was anyhow wondering why not more people grasped this opportunity. At least back then, when I bought mine, nobody offered this.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on April 16, 2017, 10:39:40 am
This one also looks interesting
http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261 (http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261)

Seems like somebody got a nUS package and now sells it on eBay? And he is shipping worldwide! I was anyhow wondering why not more people grasped this opportunity. At least back then, when I bought mine, nobody offered this.

That's a bit cheeky of them. In Australia that sort of thing is called scalping and typically happens with football tickets to the grand finals.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on April 16, 2017, 10:46:57 am
It's essentially an abitrage business. And I guess if I happened to live in the US I would have gone for it as well.

Still, I like your sports metaphor. I'm just picturing a guy having the osciloscope below his cloak standing in front of a stadium...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: snoopy on April 16, 2017, 12:47:21 pm
It's essentially an abitrage business. And I guess if I happened to live in the US I would have gone for it as well.

Still, I like your sports metaphor. I'm just picturing a guy having the osciloscope below his cloak standing in front of a stadium...

These days they flog the tickets on ebay in an auction environment ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: dr.diesel on April 16, 2017, 01:15:31 pm
My Promo order from TEq was just charged, ordered on March 17th, so maybe some of those are getting ready to ship out.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 16, 2017, 01:20:18 pm
This one also looks interesting
http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261 (http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261)
This was pretty much predictable. More or less the same with the Keysight scope giveaways. Interesting to see though how much it will fetch. It won't be the last turning up on Ebay for sure.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 16, 2017, 01:39:51 pm
Does seem odd  there are not more of these. I agree it will be interesting to see what it sells for. Might indicate a more realistic value for the scope and  its options. 8K is not realistic too me.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on April 16, 2017, 01:56:01 pm
This was also what I was wondering back when I bought mine. I guess the difference to the KS give away is that 2080$ is still a hurdle which only let's people buy the scopes if they think they need it. Or as I as a proud owner would say: is just fun to use, so you don't want to give it away again. And I even paid the European price: I.e. full. Which obviously makes it even more conciously decided.

Let's see what happens to the giveaway of mjlorton ( https://youtu.be/OqyVAHUIBRo ). This is closer to the KS give away scenario. Also Dave mentioned that he has one too give away? But there I haven't seen yet how to get it? Provably he gives it to his patreons?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on April 16, 2017, 03:05:10 pm
Has anyone picked up the front cover for these scopes? any impressions? When not using the scope, it's pushed back on my desk, but seems it would be nice to not worry about punching the face of the scope when doing other things.

I ordered one with my scope but it still doesn't even have a shipping date.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: gslick on April 16, 2017, 05:09:47 pm
This one also looks interesting
http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261 (http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261)
This was pretty much predictable. More or less the same with the Keysight scope giveaways. Interesting to see though how much it will fetch. It won't be the last turning up on Ebay for sure.

The answer is US $3,250

After eBay, PayPal, and shipping costs to the seller that is still a very nice profit. At least 3 bidders were willing to go $3,000 or more. Of course if more listings show up on eBay the price might quickly drop.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on April 16, 2017, 05:35:53 pm
This one also looks interesting
http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261 (http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261)
This was pretty much predictable. More or less the same with the Keysight scope giveaways. Interesting to see though how much it will fetch. It won't be the last turning up on Ebay for sure.
The answer is US $3,250

After eBay, PayPal, and shipping costs to the seller that is still a very nice profit. At least 3 bidders were willing to go $3,000 or more. Of course if more listings show up on eBay the price might quickly drop.


Is Easter Sunday a particularly bad or good day on eBay in the US? In Austria I would not let my auction end there. Although, if the weather is as today ...?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: HighVoltage on April 16, 2017, 06:03:01 pm
In Germany, eBay is always bad for seller of test equipment on big holidays. Or in other words, it is really good for buyers on those days. People are occupied with family stuff.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on April 16, 2017, 06:53:50 pm
That eBay seller screwed up a bit.  In addition to the holiday they only gave the auction a week.  Larger ticket items do better in a 14 day auction with a "buy it now" button in case someone gets anxious.  Then they didn't wait until all the US distributors were done with their promo sales, ie the posts above about Allied and Continental.  US buyers wouldn't pay more than $2080 if they can get it for that from a dealer.  He must have been expecting all non-US sales.  He also didn't mention that the 3 year warranty is fully transferable (it is, I've checked).  USPS priority international may not be end-to-end trackable in some countries like DHL is.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on April 16, 2017, 07:02:29 pm
This one also looks interesting
http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261 (http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/352025049261)

Seems like somebody got a nUS package and now sells it on eBay? And he is shipping worldwide! I was anyhow wondering why not more people grasped this opportunity. At least back then, when I bought mine, nobody offered this.

That's a bit cheeky of them. In Australia that sort of thing is called scalping and typically happens with football tickets to the grand finals.

I am not so sure. Earlier, ISTR in this thread, a reason given why R&S were not apparently doing the same offer in other regions was because distributors were worried about disenfranchising their other scope suppliers. If that is the case, to me, that sounds like price fixing.

I am sure we will see several more on eBay.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on April 16, 2017, 09:47:00 pm
Some photos of RTB2000 can be seen here. https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipORowip50d0SIq26g0MoEzFVsTgVzNOSNdIfmpnJGQBGxmgobQva7xiLUPnVpOzMA?key=VFljbVQ0aEVGdENwTV9sMmotV3g3cmx3SWNOS2dR

That envelope + PD mode makes a pretty picture : )

Noticed in some of the power supply close-ups with recessed terminals they look gold/copper colored inside. Makes the cheap ebay terminals I got seem extra shabby.

The chrome finish rings on the Lecroy knobs look tacky after seeing them on Siglent scopes first. Funny how subconscious associations like that work even though it's irrelevant to the product's performance.

Dr.Diesel, I also saw a charge from TEq on my cc recently. Expected ship date hasn't changed though. It could just be a periodic authorization charge to make sure funds are still available for pending orders. I saw in the faq somewhere those auths usually disappear in a few days.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 16, 2017, 10:27:58 pm
I saw this R&S RTB2004 scope at a trade fair (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipORowip50d0SIq26g0MoEzFVsTgVzNOSNdIfmpnJGQBGxmgobQva7xiLUPnVpOzMA?key=VFljbVQ0aEVGdENwTV9sMmotV3g3cmx3SWNOS2dR) in March 2017. My thoughts:
PROS:
-this is an impressive scope. The 10-bit ADC is great.
-It is featurewise.
-The carrying handle is OK.
-Impressive electrical specifications in general.

CONS:
-I do not like the front panel of RTB2004. I got used to Agilent / Keysight scopes made since 2000 or so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVNfFewFn_Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVNfFewFn_Y)
And I just love the front panel of my Agilent DSOX2002A. It is so intuitive and ergonomic. (Apart from the paper-printer-only Print button...) I want one set of knobs per each channel. Are rotary encoders expensive or what?
But I think you can get used to Rohde & Schwarz front panels.
-The touchscreen is damn glossy. This is a bad idea, because electronics labs are often full of light.
-The whole scope is quite lightweight. When I tried to push the multipurpose knob, the scope was sliding on the table!
-The scope has like 70% air inside and it is visible by big holes. It just looks weird. The mechanical construction looks like it was done quickly.
-No VGA or DVI monitor output and probably no plug-in module available.
-No GPIB interface. :-)
-No inside storage space. :-) Not a flash disc, please. I mean a probe storage compartment.
-Well, my DSOX2002A looks like a heavy tank when compared to this. Yes, it has some cons, but it is a great everyday scope for general work.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 16, 2017, 10:40:51 pm
-The whole scope is quite lightweight. When I tried to push the multipurpose knob, the scope was sliding on the table!
The feet could be stickier - as mine is on a shelf, I have it tilted down, so it's not far from its balance point- some extra weight would be useful, though the light weight is better for transport.
Quote
-No VGA or DVI monitor output and probably no plug-in module available.
You don't really need it with the fast networking  - more flexible as you can use any PC etc. for a display. If you really wanted a dedicated port you could probably use a RasPi.
 
Quote
-No GPIB interface. :-)
Does anyone still use that ?
Especially on a scope, where a lot of the functions & therefore commands weren't even available when GPIB was popular.
Is anyone likely to buy a scope like this for an existing test system?
Quote
-No inside storage space. :-)
definitely a missed opportunity
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on April 17, 2017, 05:48:01 am
For the GPIB I also asked when I bought mine. Not that I use it anymore. It was just nostalgic interest. I was told that RS offers an adapter box if I need it. I don't remember the name but I think it is this one:
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/uk/applications/gpib-to-lan-converter-application-card_56279-4295.html#menu (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/uk/applications/gpib-to-lan-converter-application-card_56279-4295.html#menu)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Messtechniker on April 17, 2017, 06:43:45 am

-The whole scope is quite lightweight. When I tried to push the multipurpose knob, the scope was sliding on the table!

Well there are two ways around such.
1.) Use, for example "UHU Patafix" glue pads (reusable, repositionable, removable without residues, kneadable). Simply put 2 blobs on the surface behind the scope and it will no longer move backwards when pushed. 
2.a) For metal surfaces: Glue magnets under the unit. Old hard drives contain quite strong magnets which may be reused. Caution: they can be quite strong and are somewhat brittle. If the magnets are found to be too strong or to avoid scratches, glue a piece of felt under the magnets. Or purchase small magnets with a centre hole so that you can bolt them down.
2.b) For non-metal surfaces: Bolt down a piece of sheet metal first and then do 2a.

I mostly rely on method 1 to keep things from slipping or falling over when being pushed slightly. For example: items in a doll's house, glass items exposed to toddlers, attaching paper notes to to the side of the fridge when running out of magnets etc. This stuff is great fun to use.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on April 17, 2017, 06:53:45 am
Is the RTB2K-COM4 bundle still available somewhere?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 17, 2017, 08:19:09 am
-No inside storage space. :-)

There is about >300MB user space available on delivery. Whats the matter to plug in a thumb drive? Or use remote controls to capture data?
I dont think that there is a real need to put a e.g. 16GB sd-card into the scope just.
Do you really want to mount such a drive into or off the scope? Mounting such drives is always painful. As well as exporting data from internal space to usb drive.
Sure a USB drive might be slower than an internal connected drive . But its more flexible. And nobody prevent you to plug in a TB drive on the scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on April 17, 2017, 09:24:37 am
-No inside storage space. :-)
There is about >300MB user space available on delivery. Whats the matter to plug in a thumb drive? .

You missed the joke there -- this refers back to Hydrawerk's earlier comment about the somewhat wasteful mechanical layout of the enclosure, I think. Do note the (low-tech) smiley!  ;-)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nowlan on April 17, 2017, 09:28:34 am
I think they wanted a compartment to store probes on back.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thanasisk on April 17, 2017, 02:10:51 pm
Are you sure such a compartment wouldn't have a negative impact on the airflow and thermals?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 17, 2017, 02:28:33 pm
I think they wanted a compartment to store probes on back.
Yes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Dubbie on April 17, 2017, 08:09:18 pm
I thought a storage space on my keysight was a dumb gimmick. Well, because I cart my scope between work and home quite a bit, it's been extraordinarily useful! There is enough room in there for a couple of probes and a few bits of jumper wire etc.
It's nice just having the handle to grab and nothing else needed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 17, 2017, 11:00:20 pm
Anyone find any sources for the promo as of today?
Thanks
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: piranha32 on April 17, 2017, 11:57:05 pm
Dr.Diesel, I also saw a charge from TEq on my cc recently. Expected ship date hasn't changed though. It could just be a periodic authorization charge to make sure funds are still available for pending orders. I saw in the faq somewhere those auths usually disappear in a few days.
I also got charged by TEq for the scope, and the expected shipping date moved from May 3 to May 5 :(
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pslawinski on April 18, 2017, 02:41:46 am
Anyone find any sources for the promo as of today?
Thanks

I just got my scope from Allied, but it looks like they don't have any more available. Have you checked all the distributors listed on the R&S website? The US launch promo was a pretty incredible deal. Hard to pass up for sure.

Thanks to mikeselectricstuff for pointing out this deal on YoutTube. I now have a massive upgrade from my 9 year old TDS2024B.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on April 18, 2017, 03:55:07 pm
The US launch promo was a pretty incredible deal. Hard to pass up for sure.

Thanks to mikeselectricstuff for pointing out this deal on YoutTube. I now have a massive upgrade from my 9 year old TDS2024B.
It was so hard to pass up that I'm flying over to pick up the one I ordered :p
(GF wanted to visit the States anyway, though she doesn't know what I'll be taking home with us!)

The deep memory should be an especially welcome upgrade over the tek, 2.5k is very limiting for some stuff. As for me I've already got a couple of options with deep memory, but nothing that samples quite fast enough or has a nice UI so am also looking forward to the upgrade.

A quick query for those familiar with the TSA - am I likely to run into any issues flying out from the US with a scope in hand luggage? Have travelled with weirder things elsewhere, but don't have much experience of the US.
Also would be interested in any comments about how protected the front panel is - does the packaging come with anything other than foam to protect the front, or am I better off ordering the cover?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 18, 2017, 04:19:21 pm
I don't expect we'll see very many more on eBay. $3250 may sound high but it's really not and most places had a two scope limit.
Just to see what it would come to I priced the scope with just the 300M and serial and it came to around $4.3k from two sellers. For $3,250 you get  mem, arb, serial, MSO and the 300M. If R&S had the deal at $3,250 instead of $2,080 I bet they would still sell out. I see Keysight's going for over $4k with the older scope without the touch screen.

Mine will be here tomorrow.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 18, 2017, 04:50:44 pm
The US launch promo was a pretty incredible deal. Hard to pass up for sure.

Thanks to mikeselectricstuff for pointing out this deal on YoutTube. I now have a massive upgrade from my 9 year old TDS2024B.
It was so hard to pass up that I'm flying over to pick up the one I ordered :p
(GF wanted to visit the States anyway, though she doesn't know what I'll be taking home with us!)

The deep memory should be an especially welcome upgrade over the tek, 2.5k is very limiting for some stuff. As for me I've already got a couple of options with deep memory, but nothing that samples quite fast enough or has a nice UI so am also looking forward to the upgrade.

A quick query for those familiar with the TSA - am I likely to run into any issues flying out from the US with a scope in hand luggage? Have travelled with weirder things elsewhere, but don't have much experience of the US.
Also would be interested in any comments about how protected the front panel is - does the packaging come with anything other than foam to protect the front, or am I better off ordering the cover?
Can't imagine an issue with what is obviously a new, manufactured product ( other than overall size), but nothing is certain.  Shielding is aluminium so should x-ray pretty well.
UK customs might be more of a concern if you got stopped.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 18, 2017, 04:58:55 pm
The US launch promo was a pretty incredible deal. Hard to pass up for sure.

Thanks to mikeselectricstuff for pointing out this deal on YoutTube. I now have a massive upgrade from my 9 year old TDS2024B.
It was so hard to pass up that I'm flying over to pick up the one I ordered :p
(GF wanted to visit the States anyway, though she doesn't know what I'll be taking home with us!)

The deep memory should be an especially welcome upgrade over the tek, 2.5k is very limiting for some stuff. As for me I've already got a couple of options with deep memory, but nothing that samples quite fast enough or has a nice UI so am also looking forward to the upgrade.

A quick query for those familiar with the TSA - am I likely to run into any issues flying out from the US with a scope in hand luggage? Have travelled with weirder things elsewhere, but don't have much experience of the US.
Also would be interested in any comments about how protected the front panel is - does the packaging come with anything other than foam to protect the front, or am I better off ordering the cover?

When you get here DHL it to yourself.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 18, 2017, 05:23:04 pm
The US launch promo was a pretty incredible deal. Hard to pass up for sure.

Thanks to mikeselectricstuff for pointing out this deal on YoutTube. I now have a massive upgrade from my 9 year old TDS2024B.
It was so hard to pass up that I'm flying over to pick up the one I ordered :p
(GF wanted to visit the States anyway, though she doesn't know what I'll be taking home with us!)

The deep memory should be an especially welcome upgrade over the tek, 2.5k is very limiting for some stuff. As for me I've already got a couple of options with deep memory, but nothing that samples quite fast enough or has a nice UI so am also looking forward to the upgrade.

A quick query for those familiar with the TSA - am I likely to run into any issues flying out from the US with a scope in hand luggage? Have travelled with weirder things elsewhere, but don't have much experience of the US.
Also would be interested in any comments about how protected the front panel is - does the packaging come with anything other than foam to protect the front, or am I better off ordering the cover?

When you get here DHL it to yourself.
That was my thought as well - as you're shipping it youself, you can decide what customs value you think is appropriate  ;)
The packing on mine was spiky foam rubber on all sides, should be OK for shipping, but if you're hand-carrying you won't want that much bulk.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on April 18, 2017, 05:24:31 pm
A quick query for those familiar with the TSA - am I likely to run into any issues flying out from the US with a scope in hand luggage? Have travelled with weirder things elsewhere, but don't have much experience of the US.

Nope, no problem at all with TSA, although make sure you have an AC cord handy in the very unlikely event they ask you to turn it on. They may choose to swab it. I recommend getting it out separately like you would a laptop at security screening.

Just make sure that in total you are not beyond your carrier's hand baggage allowance, and make sure your scope will be well protected even though you are taking it on board as hand baggage. For reference I took a Marconi 2955 as carry on once which is a boatanchor about the size of a standard international roll-aboard, but it's heavy, I could barely lift it into the overhead! TSA didn't blink an eyelid, I am sure they see this stuff every day. I would _not_ check it in as hold baggage under any circumstances unless it is properly packed in, say, a Peli case with foam inserts and it is insured. I brought an HP 8753A back from the US about fifteen years ago, shortly after the TSA were introduced, in a large Peli case. I had to remove the YIG to get it under the max checked baggage weight allowance. Fun times!

Be aware of any Blighty customs duties... ;-)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on April 18, 2017, 05:45:57 pm
Thanks for the helpful replies!

DHL seemed very expensive when I used their online calculator, plus would have to insure it and pay a bunch of import fees. I think I'll just give myself plenty of time to go through security and keep the cord with it.

As for blighty customs, I've taken 2k USD worth of electronics into the UK a number of times (eg laptop, camera, USB scope) without even thinking about it, but nothing like a full sized scope. Does anyone know how much they care about something like this? Could declare it but have already paid sales tax and would rather not be taxed twice on one item!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on April 18, 2017, 06:00:08 pm
As for blighty customs, I've taken 2k USD worth of electronics into the UK a number of times (eg laptop, camera, USB scope) without even thinking about it, but nothing like a full sized scope. Does anyone know how much they care about something like this? Could declare it but have already paid sales tax and would rather not be taxed twice on one item!

A bit of a gamble at least. If you decide not to declare it, and customs somehow pick up on it, they might get annoyed. As you would be exceeding the free allowance (390 GBP) significantly, they might even charge an extra penalty.

Why did you pay sales tax in the US, by the way? Didn't you mail order and have it sent to another state?  If you did pay US sales tax, you should be able to get a refund for that if you declare the export, so you won't be taxed twice. But the UK tax is higher, of course...  ::)

EDIT: Allowance amount; tax refund comment added.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on April 18, 2017, 06:03:01 pm
To the UK I seem to have better experience with FedEx than DHL :)

Just today I got about $350,- worth of items via FedEx from US - and it went through customs without a charge. I think that is now about 50/50 if I have gotten charged....

With DHL I get charged every time without exception - and their UK office is absolute terrible to deal with if you have to pay.  Online Gateway is often down - and DHL drivers do not by default have card reader with them. But FedEx DOES. So never had any issues with FedEx so far

:)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 18, 2017, 06:30:14 pm
Thanks for the helpful replies!

DHL seemed very expensive when I used their online calculator, plus would have to insure it and pay a bunch of import fees. I think I'll just give myself plenty of time to go through security and keep the cord with it.

As for blighty customs, I've taken 2k USD worth of electronics into the UK a number of times (eg laptop, camera, USB scope) without even thinking about it, but nothing like a full sized scope. Does anyone know how much they care about something like this? Could declare it but have already paid sales tax and would rather not be taxed twice on one item!
As a precaution, don't pack anything with it that would indicate it was bought in US - invoice, manuals, original packing etc. I don't recall if it came with a screen protection film but definitely remove that, maybe add plenty of fingermarks!
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on April 18, 2017, 06:54:22 pm
Why did you pay sales tax in the US, by the way? Didn't you mail order and have it sent to another state?  If you did pay US sales tax, you should be able to get a refund for that if you declare the export, so you won't be taxed twice. But the UK tax is higher, of course...  ::)
I got one shipped to a friend in a sales-tax state/city, who I'll be visiting on my trip. If it's easy enough to get a refund then I might just do that and cough up the (~2x higher) VAT in the UK. Annoying to pay more but it's still a cracking deal. Otherwise, I'm pretty good at covering shiny screens with fingerprints :P
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 18, 2017, 06:57:15 pm
As for blighty customs, I've taken 2k USD worth of electronics into the UK a number of times (eg laptop, camera, USB scope) without even thinking about it, but nothing like a full sized scope. Does anyone know how much they care about something like this? Could declare it but have already paid sales tax and would rather not be taxed twice on one item!

A bit of a gamble at least. If you decide not to declare it, and customs somehow pick up on it, they might get annoyed. As you would be exceeding the free allowance (390 GBP) significantly, they might even charge an extra penalty.

Why did you pay sales tax in the US, by the way? Didn't you mail order and have it sent to another state?  If you did pay US sales tax, you should be able to get a refund for that if you declare the export, so you won't be taxed twice. But the UK tax is higher, of course...  ::)

EDIT: Allowance amount; tax refund comment added.
Most distributors in the US are charging sales tax regardless of which State they ship to because they usually have a nationwide operations
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 18, 2017, 06:57:40 pm
Thanks for the helpful replies!

DHL seemed very expensive when I used their online calculator, plus would have to insure it and pay a bunch of import fees. I think I'll just give myself plenty of time to go through security and keep the cord with it.

As for blighty customs, I've taken 2k USD worth of electronics into the UK a number of times (eg laptop, camera, USB scope) without even thinking about it, but nothing like a full sized scope. Does anyone know how much they care about something like this? Could declare it but have already paid sales tax and would rather not be taxed twice on one item!
As a precaution, don't pack anything with it that would indicate it was bought in US - invoice, manuals, original packing etc. I don't recall if it came with a screen protection film but definitely remove that, maybe add plenty of fingermarks!
 

Right, plug it in and now it's used like your laptop.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 18, 2017, 07:11:06 pm
Bring the scope as luggage (in a carrying case) and put the box + manuals in the post.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 18, 2017, 07:17:32 pm
Bring the scope as luggage (in a carrying case) and put the box + manuals in the post.
There are no manuals in the box and the box itself is not worth keeping
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on April 18, 2017, 08:35:24 pm
To the UK I seem to have better experience with FedEx than DHL :)

Just today I got about $350,- worth of items via FedEx from US - and it went through customs without a charge. I think that is now about 50/50 if I have gotten charged....

With DHL I get charged every time without exception - and their UK office is absolute terrible to deal with if you have to pay.  Online Gateway is often down - and DHL drivers do not by default have card reader with them. But FedEx DOES. So never had any issues with FedEx so far

:)

FedEx bill any tax and admin charges due separately after delivery.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on April 18, 2017, 08:54:22 pm
I have never had FedEx charge me after delivery - it is private - not company - and they only do cash on delivery to the best of my experience.

The 6 other parcels that have gone through without charge has not had any invoices/requests for payments. The 5 I have paid for - they charged on the spot on delivery.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaserEng on April 19, 2017, 06:04:18 am
Can someone give me an idea of the dimensions and weight of the box the scope ships in ? I tried to find this information online but no luck yet, I'm looking at shipping one internationally soon so would be good to get this information.

Also is the outside box covered in R&S branding or is it shipped double boxed with no external branding?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on April 19, 2017, 06:40:09 am
FedEx bill any tax and admin charges due separately after delivery.

as with every other courier.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 19, 2017, 07:52:07 am
Can someone give me an idea of the dimensions and weight of the box the scope ships in ? I tried to find this information online but no luck yet, I'm looking at shipping one internationally soon so would be good to get this information.

Also is the outside box covered in R&S branding or is it shipped double boxed with no external branding?
Box is R&S branded. Approx 4 inches bigger than the scope in all dimensions. Packing is foam rubber type so moderately heavy, Label on mine says 10kg.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 19, 2017, 12:43:54 pm
Bring the scope as luggage (in a carrying case) and put the box + manuals in the post.
There are no manuals in the box and the box itself is not worth keeping

I think it's a good idea to keep original boxes from equipment for reselling later. If the instrument has a problem it also gives you the original packing.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 19, 2017, 02:00:30 pm
Can someone give me an idea of the dimensions and weight of the box the scope ships in ? I tried to find this information online but no luck yet, I'm looking at shipping one internationally soon so would be good to get this information.

Also is the outside box covered in R&S branding or is it shipped double boxed with no external branding?
Box is R&S branded. Approx 4 inches bigger than the scope in all dimensions. Packing is foam rubber type so moderately heavy, Label on mine says 10kg.
Box received from US distributor is 11 lb (5kg) and the dimensions are 19x14x10 inches.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 19, 2017, 04:26:12 pm
If I did that for everything I bough, my Fort would be bigger than my house  :)

Joel


[quote ]
I think it's a good idea to keep original boxes from equipment for reselling later. If the instrument has a problem it also gives you the original packing.
[/quote]
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: fonograph on April 19, 2017, 11:48:14 pm
( patiently waiting for someone to hack it )  :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kkessler on April 20, 2017, 05:01:19 am
Can someone give me an idea of the dimensions and weight of the box the scope ships in ? I tried to find this information online but no luck yet, I'm looking at shipping one internationally soon so would be good to get this information.

Also is the outside box covered in R&S branding or is it shipped double boxed with no external branding?
Box is R&S branded. Approx 4 inches bigger than the scope in all dimensions. Packing is foam rubber type so moderately heavy, Label on mine says 10kg.

My FedEx Tracking information says the box is 19x15x10 inches and weights 10.4 lbs.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 20, 2017, 01:26:52 pm
Someone asked for some scope shots of audio with FFT, here are some. They are just listing to Pandora through the computer. I could also do sin, triangle, square wave at a set frequency if interested. settings are on screen.

Joel
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thanasisk on April 20, 2017, 06:53:53 pm
Someone asked for some scope shots of audio with FFT, here are some. They are just listing to Pandora through the computer. I could also do sin, triangle, square wave at a set frequency if interested. settings are on screen.

Joel

Can you please also try peak search?

And also is fft phase info available somehow?

Many thanx!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 20, 2017, 07:10:10 pm
Hi guys & girls,
I'm just starting to play with this scope. I do a lot of embedded uC's and serial bus work and this scope really shines. So far it's turning out to be my go to scope, we'll see as time passes. Very intuitive and easy to use and learn.
The FFT's will come in handy for my audio work ,the 10 bits really make a difference.
Rob
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kkessler on April 21, 2017, 03:42:37 am
Hypothetically, I could end up with a second one of these scopes, so I look into shipping the shipping costs to Europe for obvious reasons.  I checked several carriers, going to different cities, and they all cost between $300 and $400, which seems crazy to me.  I'm going to London this fall, and it would cost less to buy the scope the seat beside me on that flight.  Is there something I'm doing wrong, or are these expected prices for shipping to Europe?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on April 21, 2017, 03:53:18 am
If you're paying book/list rate shipping is crazy expensive. It would cost me about 100 USD to ship it with the discount I can get from UPS.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: edavid on April 21, 2017, 04:04:28 am
Hypothetically, I could end up with a second one of these scopes, so I look into shipping the shipping costs to Europe for obvious reasons.  I checked several carriers, going to different cities, and they all cost between $300 and $400, which seems crazy to me.  I'm going to London this fall, and it would cost less to buy the scope the seat beside me on that flight.  Is there something I'm doing wrong, or are these expected prices for shipping to Europe?

If you don't get a special discount, the 2 viable options I know of are USPS and ParcelMonkey (http://www.parcelmonkey.com)

The problem is insuring the scope for full value...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on April 21, 2017, 04:06:17 am
Indeed, insurance is expensive and generally whatever you insure a shipment for is the amount used for tax collection.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: edavid on April 21, 2017, 04:12:49 am
Indeed, insurance is expensive and generally whatever you insure a shipment for is the amount used for tax collection.

That's the beauty of 3rd party shipping insurance... it has no relation to the declared value... but e.g. insurepost.com has a $1000 limit.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 21, 2017, 06:18:17 am
Hypothetically, I could end up with a second one of these scopes, so I look into shipping the shipping costs to Europe for obvious reasons.  I checked several carriers, going to different cities, and they all cost between $300 and $400, which seems crazy to me.  I'm going to London this fall, and it would cost less to buy the scope the seat beside me on that flight.  Is there something I'm doing wrong, or are these expected prices for shipping to Europe?
Assuming you are in the US: USPS is much cheaper.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaserEng on April 21, 2017, 06:32:11 am
I have a Shipito account and I just checked their shipping calculator for a 19x15x10 box with 10.4 lbs weight and declared value of $200 and it was coming up as $82 Fedex Economy to London SW7 with insurance included.

When I increased the declared value to $2080 the price increased to $111 Fedex Economy with Insurance. Not bad versus listed Fedex or DHL prices
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on April 21, 2017, 07:14:48 am
I checked several carriers, going to different cities, and they all cost between $300 and $400, which seems crazy to me.  I'm going to London this fall, and it would cost less to buy the scope the seat beside me on that flight.
This is why I'm planning on flying back to europe with one in my carry-on early next month - I got the same insane prices when I checked, vs an extra bag on the flight at ~30 USD. Could have gone with a shipping re-seller but was a good excuse for a holiday anyway.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Howardlong on April 21, 2017, 08:31:54 am
I have a Shipito account and I just checked their shipping calculator for a 19x15x10 box with 10.4 lbs weight and declared value of $200 and it was coming up as $82 Fedex Economy to London SW7 with insurance included.

When I increased the declared value to $2080 the price increased to $111 Fedex Economy with Insurance. Not bad versus listed Fedex or DHL prices

I have a FedEx account and that sounds about right. If you are a punter off the street without an account with FedEx, prepare to be royally shafted! Alternatively, you can use third parties. Quite often FedEx Priority is actually cheaper than FedEx Economy bizarrely.

Are you in SW7? Coincidentally, that is also my location.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 21, 2017, 09:06:45 am
Someone asked for some scope shots of audio with FFT, here are some. They are just listing to Pandora through the computer. I could also do sin, triangle, square wave at a set frequency if interested. settings are on screen.

Joel

... looks like a modern art master piece ...
here some simple shots from  an audio sweep 1KHz-22kHz
Led Zeppelin - Houses of the Holy (with Min- and MaxHold)
and some local radio stations (Avg with usage of cursors)


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: blacksheeplogic on April 21, 2017, 09:48:23 am
Has anyone here in New Zealand purchased the RTB2004, I'm interested but found very little information on it here including lead time.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on April 21, 2017, 12:46:40 pm
Has anyone here in New Zealand purchased the RTB2004, I'm interested but found very little information on it here including lead time.
I had a bit of a look myself, but didn't have any luck finding any decent RTB2K-COM4 promo pricing (element14 has it in stock for $5.5k NZD + GST, cheaper than full list price but a far cry from the ~$2k USD promo).
I also checked out getting one sent to NZ from the states via NZ post's youshop freight-forwarding service, but they have a $2k USD limit. I think the US units are likely all gone now unfortunately.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 21, 2017, 03:20:31 pm
Here's a couple more audio with peak detect and of a 10KHz square wave.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 21, 2017, 05:12:35 pm
Having a large screen makes vertical and horizontal labeling possible and it allows for a quick reading of values without the use cursors
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaserEng on April 21, 2017, 05:29:44 pm
I have a Shipito account and I just checked their shipping calculator for a 19x15x10 box with 10.4 lbs weight and declared value of $200 and it was coming up as $82 Fedex Economy to London SW7 with insurance included.

When I increased the declared value to $2080 the price increased to $111 Fedex Economy with Insurance. Not bad versus listed Fedex or DHL prices

I have a FedEx account and that sounds about right. If you are a punter off the street without an account with FedEx, prepare to be royally shafted! Alternatively, you can use third parties. Quite often FedEx Priority is actually cheaper than FedEx Economy bizarrely.

Are you in SW7? Coincidentally, that is also my location.

I used to be around 25+ years ago, originally from the west country...Wales   :D spent some time in SW7 and then back to Wales until moved to California in 2002 and been in Thailand since 2005. So not in SW7 now but previously, yes.

Fedex and DHL pricing is horrid if you just come of the street with no account, if you ahve an account it's not so bad bit I've used Shipito for 10 + years and can't fault them for international forwarding, though I remember having to jump through a bunch of loops to get the account set up.

Looking forward to getting my RTB2004, always nice getting new toys  ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: blacksheeplogic on April 22, 2017, 06:15:07 am
Has anyone here in New Zealand purchased the RTB2004, I'm interested but found very little information on it here including lead time.
I also checked out getting one sent to NZ from the states via NZ post's youshop freight-forwarding service, but they have a $2k USD limit. I think the US units are likely all gone now unfortunately.

Thanks, I think Nichecom may be the NZ  distributor, not sure. Don't have a lot of time or patience right now, so  I may just get the MSO3024T if I can't get a quote and short lead time this coming week.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 22, 2017, 11:54:19 am
I don't mind the glass display, my scope is partially under a shelf so reflections aren't a problem. I also noticed that if I'm looking at the screen data I seem to look past any reflections. I clean the glass from time to time with "Invisible Glass" that we can get in the states which works really well.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 22, 2017, 04:39:17 pm
Scope captures of built-in generator. 10KHz sin wave in sample mode and hires mode.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kkessler on April 24, 2017, 01:48:32 pm
I assume that there will be another one of these scope available from Test Equity soon, because I just canceled my order. I don't know if they have a wait list or anything, though.

I originally ordered from TestEquity in mid March, but when a couple were in stock at Allied, I ordered one of them, and received it last week.  I thought about getting the second scope and selling it on eBay, but the risks of selling a high ticket item on eBay, coupled with the complications of shipping made me think it was just not worth the pita to go that route, so I canceled my Test Equity order.

I can say I'm happy with the scope; it is doubtless the best scope I've ever owned.

Good luck, I hope an EEVBlogger gets that scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 24, 2017, 08:52:21 pm
I assume that there will be another one of these scope available from Test Equity soon, because I just canceled my order. I don't know if they have a wait list or anything, though.

I originally ordered from TestEquity in mid March, but when a couple were in stock at Allied, I ordered one of them, and received it last week.  I thought about getting the second scope and selling it on eBay, but the risks of selling a high ticket item on eBay, coupled with the complications of shipping made me think it was just not worth the pita to go that route, so I canceled my Test Equity order.

I can say I'm happy with the scope; it is doubtless the best scope I've ever owned.

Good luck, I hope an EEVBlogger gets that scope.
I don't think TestEquity will relist the item for $2080.  Some distributors (Allied, Newark) still have the RTB2K-COM4 package available, but at full price for $7920.  What is over is the promotional introductory price.  The promotion was a combination of both the available quantity and the timeframe.

http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=RTB2K-COM4&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false&ddkey=http%3Aen-US%2FElement14_US%2Fsearch (http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=RTB2K-COM4&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false&ddkey=http%3Aen-US%2FElement14_US%2Fsearch)

http://www.alliedelec.com/rohde-and-schwarz-rtb2k-com4/70979679/ (http://www.alliedelec.com/rohde-and-schwarz-rtb2k-com4/70979679/)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on April 24, 2017, 09:12:42 pm
It sounds like a pretty decent option but to take costs down further, I recommend trying viabox rather than myus.com. They have the cheapest shipping rates & I've had no problems with them so far. Hope this helps.

Viabox is grossly misrepresenting prices and scope service in their comparison page.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 24, 2017, 09:32:09 pm
I assume that there will be another one of these scope available from Test Equity soon, because I just canceled my order. I don't know if they have a wait list or anything, though.

I originally ordered from TestEquity in mid March, but when a couple were in stock at Allied, I ordered one of them, and received it last week.  I thought about getting the second scope and selling it on eBay, but the risks of selling a high ticket item on eBay, coupled with the complications of shipping made me think it was just not worth the pita to go that route, so I canceled my Test Equity order.

I can say I'm happy with the scope; it is doubtless the best scope I've ever owned.

Good luck, I hope an EEVBlogger gets that scope.
I don't think TestEquity will relist the item for $2080.  Some distributors (Allied, Newark) still have the RTB2K-COM4 package available, but at full price for $7920.  What is over is the promotional introductory price.  The promotion was a combination of both the available quantity and the timeframe.

http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=RTB2K-COM4&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false&ddkey=http%3Aen-US%2FElement14_US%2Fsearch (http://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745?ost=RTB2K-COM4&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false&ddkey=http%3Aen-US%2FElement14_US%2Fsearch)

http://www.alliedelec.com/rohde-and-schwarz-rtb2k-com4/70979679/ (http://www.alliedelec.com/rohde-and-schwarz-rtb2k-com4/70979679/)

That's correct Test Equity told me just an hour ago the promo is no longer available.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 24, 2017, 10:09:18 pm
More Audio freq with FFT. 10KHz sin.

Not sure why I can't select a say 20KHz span with 10KHz center frequency, might be memory related. I notice things change based on time base.

Last two are comparing FFT to my spectrum analyzer. Tried to get settings as close to the same as I could.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 25, 2017, 06:13:58 am
works ... you should reduce your sample rate to adopt the highest available frequency    fMax=(samplerate/2)
This also makes your RBW come down too for a better resolution of your 10kHz peak.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 25, 2017, 06:49:28 am
Last two are comparing FFT to my spectrum analyzer. Tried to get settings as close to the same as I could.

Trying to capture a 10kHz frequency peak with a spectrum analyzer and frequency step of 30kHz won´t make you happy.
You should use a much much lower frequency step to get a better resolution on your spectrum.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 25, 2017, 09:15:15 am
I'm getting a visit from the UK product manager and someone from the German office tomorrow, to talk about opinions on UI and usage  etc - if anyone has any specific questions/suggestions let me know.
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thanasisk on April 25, 2017, 09:39:09 am
I'm getting a visit from the UK product manager and someone from the German office tomorrow, to talk about opinions on UI and usage  etc - if anyone has any specific questions/suggestions let me know.

My suggestion, based on what I have seen in the video reviews would be : the touchscreen lag definitely has to be addressed by using a more beefy processor or more optimized code (or a better touch screen?)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 25, 2017, 09:50:53 am
I'm getting a visit from the UK product manager and someone from the German office tomorrow, to talk about opinions on UI and usage  etc - if anyone has any specific questions/suggestions let me know.

My suggestion, based on what I have seen in the video reviews would be : the touchscreen lag definitely has to be addressed by using a more beefy processor or more optimized code (or a better touch screen?)
I think it could be made to look less clunky by removing all the sliding transition stuff and have menus just appear instantly
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on April 25, 2017, 10:03:22 am
I'm getting a visit from the UK product manager and someone from the German office tomorrow, to talk about opinions on UI and usage  etc - if anyone has any specific questions/suggestions let me know.
Unfortunately I don't get mine till the weekend, so can't make any suggestions from personal experience, but I've listed a few thoughts below:
- As others (inc. you I think) have mentioned, it would be nice to have the current memory depth displayed somewhere.
- Some more math options (e.g. integration, differentiation, multiple operations, filters etc) and trigger options would probably be quite useful, but i suspect the reason for the limited options may be product differentiation from their higher end kit.
- There'll always be improvements available for decodes etc, you probably know where they could improve better than most
- Maybe query the low sample rate capability of the arbitrary waveform generator? Waveform generator is quite an expensive option if you didn't get the promo, would be nice to be able to run >10MS/s in arb mode.
- Would be nice if you could pull waveform data out at closer to the native gigabit ethernet speed; faster rate would allow for some pretty powerful capture and analysis on a PC

Will add anything more I think of - as always it's easy to come up with a huge wishlist but harder to keep it realistic. If the UK product manager is Richard, then he seemed pretty helpful when I dealt with him - hopefully he has some sway with the people deciding what goes into any firmware updates.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 25, 2017, 11:10:46 am
... permanently visible memory depth would be nice ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 25, 2017, 11:16:29 am
... permanently visible memory depth would be nice ...
Yes - top-right area should show memory and trigger holdoff.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 25, 2017, 12:17:11 pm
The rise time is quite slow on the square wave.
Green Agilent 33220 signal gen, yellow R&S.

Sine wave distortion = 0.04%
Agilent 33220 = 0.03%
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 25, 2017, 01:12:30 pm
Yes of course. I'm finding that with the SA , even though I have set things to manual, as I try to dial things in where I want, the SA changes other settings. I think this happens when I go out of range as I am changing  things ( like accidentally keying in 100KHz instead of 10KHz before really getting it set to 10KHz CF ).

As far as the scope, I do run into limitations of span vs RBW vs center when doing FFT, and they are very dependent on sample frequency. I always worry that I miss some content when the sample rate is too low. Maybe this does not matter for the audio sample shots I was trying to get for someone. For me, I am usually more concerned with capturing high frequency content on slow rising edges.

I notice on this class of scope, you can not set sample rate independent of time base. I can do this with the scopes at work, usefulness only limited by sample memory. I've  noticed in extreme cases, the "big" scopes will clip the display if the memory depth is not big enough to fill the display at the time base and sample rate.

In any case, thanks for the insights, I am still learning the limitations of both the scope and SA. The SA I find I mostly have to be mindful of it changing settings on me.

Joel

Last two are comparing FFT to my spectrum analyzer. Tried to get settings as close to the same as I could.

Trying to capture a 10kHz frequency peak with a spectrum analyzer and frequency step of 30kHz won´t make you happy.
You should use a much much lower frequency step to get a better resolution on your spectrum.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on April 25, 2017, 03:05:11 pm
I'm getting a visit from the UK product manager and someone from the German office tomorrow, to talk about opinions on UI and usage  etc - if anyone has any specific questions/suggestions let me know.
This is good to hear. I really like companies which are listening to the customer (as long as they are not just listening but also reacting). Let me give some input:

First I should mention, that I did not had the chance for a hands on session of this scope. Though I saw your and others videos ... enough to see what I like and what not.

Let me mention a few aspects (some has been mentioned before by Mike and/or others) which are annoying me even before I used the scope:

There is one more issue (definately for me and for probably others a show stopper), but I will send it to Mike as a PM first - he may provide it to the Product Manager if he likes and maybe he gets some positive feedback from the Product Manager. I will not write it in public (yet) as it is not my intention to hurt R&S if this is going to be changed anyway.

Finally I should mention that I really like the fact, that R&S did invest resources for a better user interface. Thumbs up for this  :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on April 26, 2017, 02:30:52 am
I second asking R&S whether the ethernet and usb transfer speeds people reported are truly representative of the scope's limits. I was hoping it would be possible to have PC access to the data in seconds where a script could do some additional processing and give you those more complex math transforms they didn't put in the scope, and really go beyond with any formula you can think of.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: blacksheeplogic on April 26, 2017, 03:03:49 am
I'm getting a visit from the UK product manager and someone from the German office tomorrow, to talk about opinions on UI and usage  etc - if anyone has any specific questions/suggestions let me know.

Not a Worldwide issue I'm sure, but at least here (New Zealand) they don't seem that interested in selling these scopes at least in one off quantities. Could not get a base price and never got a quote. Looking online, could not even get a feel for cost and if there was any special pricing fully optioned.

Just placed an order for a DSOX3024T + 16 channel MSO, Application Bundle, and Lan/VGA, local Keysight distributor returned the quote same day and called. Online, I was able to get a feel for pricing, quote turned out a little less than expected due to bundle pricing.

Might seem like a small point but for me a new scope was a large investment and I need the reassurance that the company/distributor will answer an email or return a call.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on April 26, 2017, 03:17:40 am
I would like to see:

- Some work on the responsiveness of the GUI. If necessary get rid of the menu animations.
- Transparent menus if it doesn't collide with the first point.
- I second the vote for sample memory length display in the top right.
- Better accessibility of the trigger hold-off setting.
- More advanced math functions. It is really a shame for a scope of this category.

And of course fixing all the bugs that Mike and Dave discovered.

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on April 26, 2017, 06:59:53 am
As I haven't used the scope in person yet, I didn't comment on the UI performance earlier, but some general observations (most probably pretty obvious) below:

- Most users will have spent thousands of hours interacting with a smooth, responsive and refined touchscreen UI that they carry around in a pocket
- Anyone building something else with a touch UI will be automatically compared to that, whether it is fair or not, so UI will always be critical to the user impression of the device
- If it's (technically and economically) feasible to build a scope using Android as a base (like higher end systems use windows), maybe that would help solve a lot of the UI responsiveness issues without having to re-do all the work and optimisation that has gone into the problem in the past. I think a number of car entertainment systems do this but don't advertise what they are built on.
- Experienced users will already know where the button they want is going to appear on the menu they bring up. Any animation should be shorter than the time required to re-position the user's finger over the next button. If not, there should be an option to disable them.

This is not a criticism of the R&S effort/implementation (as I said, I haven't used it in person, and it sounds like a lot of the UI design is done extremely well) but a few of my thoughts about the different expectations and challenges of going from knobs and buttons to a touch UI.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: piranha32 on April 26, 2017, 07:11:17 am
I'm getting a visit from the UK product manager and someone from the German office tomorrow, to talk about opinions on UI and usage  etc - if anyone has any specific questions/suggestions let me know.
+1 for reducing, or adding an option to switch off animations.
Sliding menus look flashy and add bling to the UI, but for proficient users they only get in the way and become an annoying obstacle.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 26, 2017, 07:22:18 am
Having an measurement option of showing a bitrate of a given serial signal would be nice (thus you see e.g. 19200 bps - you do not need to calculate). Remark: I might already be there and I just did not see it in the videos.

... nice one. I´ve never seen a bitrate measurement on scopes yet. I usualy take a pulse width measurement with statistics.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on April 26, 2017, 09:35:26 am
Having an measurement option of showing a bitrate of a given serial signal would be nice (thus you see e.g. 19200 bps - you do not need to calculate). Remark: I might already be there and I just did not see it in the videos.

... nice one. I´ve never seen a bitrate measurement on scopes yet. I usualy take a pulse width measurement with statistics.
Keysight DSOX2K / DSOX3K does have it since firmware 2.4 I think (I am too lazy now to get the exact firmware number). The new 1000 series of Keysight probably comes with it too.
See screenshot attached. I often find this very handy! The measurement to choose of is called bit-rate and here on my screen shot it shows the 19.200 baud UART signal correctly with 19.2kbps (though depending of the horizontal time base it might show not 19.2 but 19.3 or 19.5 .... but as you usually just want to have an idea about if you need to set your serial protocol analyzer to 9.600 or 19.200 or 38.000 it is good enough).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 26, 2017, 11:31:41 am
Just spent a couple of hours with the Jithu (UK manager) and Joel (strategic planner and responsible for much of the UI design).

Pretty much everything that has been mentioned here and other things on my fairly long list had either already been raised by others, was acknowledged as issues that need looking at.

Joel seemed particularly interested in fine details of history mode, but I commented that there's a lot of more important things to focus on first!
He wasn't sure if transparent menus are possible due to graphics hardware limitations.

Limitation on decoding 2-way buses were already under discussion, as to whether they should increase number of busses or make UART and SPI 2-way. Adding "4-wire SPI and 2-way UART" was one possible solution. I did point out that the  Rigol does two 2-way decodes.

One thing that looks good for the long term is they are planning a higher-end model which will use the same software base, so we can expect improvements and updates to percolate down from this development. (This is also the reason for all the empty space in the case).

Slightly embarrassing moment when I first turned it on in front of them and it crashed -  one tip is that you can force a factory reset by holding the PRESET button when the splash screen appears. 
 
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 26, 2017, 11:53:54 am
No word on making the pricing more competitive?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 26, 2017, 11:58:36 am
No word on making the pricing more competitive?
Not their department, though they did agree that option pricing was silly, and serial decode should be standard these days ( I did mention Siglent have jumped on this one).

They do seem keen to get into the market, to replace Tek as "the other big-brand scope people" (my words), so I think we may see more promos in the future.
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 26, 2017, 12:13:40 pm
"20% of all male are having some issue with color blindless. Due to the color coded light knobs (=no single vertical knobs) it b and ecame pretty difficult/impossible to see, which channel is selected. Especially here with the missing knobs, user defined channel colors are a must so people may select what they can recognize the easiest!!! Otherwise 20% of all male will swear a lot because of this 'color feature' when using the RTB2000."

I like the single knob set up. Less cluttered screen, simple to use and easy to set. I prefer it over a knob for each channel.Color blind? Really? Give me something to work with!

I've been putting this scope through its paces and I'm totally happy with it. Sure there are small things I would change but it's a really good scope in a lot of areas. I'm sure those of you who don't like it could easily sell it for more than you paid.

I do mostly serial decoding and the RTB2000 is the cat's meow.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 26, 2017, 12:15:23 pm
Oh, and it's manufactured in the Czech republic.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 26, 2017, 12:29:46 pm
No word on making the pricing more competitive?
Not their department, though they did agree that option pricing was silly, and serial decode should be standard these days ( I did mention Siglent have jumped on this one).

They do seem keen to get into the market, to replace Tek as "the other big-brand scope people" (my words), so I think we may see more promos in the future.
 

Mike,
Siglent also uses cheap capacitors and inferior materials. So you get more options but the scope doesn't last as long? If they include decoding then the price has to go up, they make a quality scope they have to make their money somewhere. Not everyone needs decoding so the people who don't save on options they don't need. What happens is everyone gets a cheaper scope to start. They make a great product, let them make their money, that's what I say. Even with full pricing it comes in well under the Keysight with the same options.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on April 26, 2017, 12:40:08 pm
Siglent also uses cheap capacitors and inferior materials.
>:(
You'd better qualify those remarks, if you can.  :P

At least Siglent don't use a highly reflective glass on their displays.  ::)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 26, 2017, 12:51:09 pm
Even with full pricing it comes in well under the Keysight with the same options.
That doesn't say Keysight is good value for money. IMHO there is a market for full featured scopes in the $2000 to $5000 range and manufacturers finally start to step into this segment.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 26, 2017, 01:06:46 pm
Siglent also uses cheap capacitors and inferior materials.
>:(
You'd better qualify those remarks, if you can.  :P

At least Siglent don't use a highly reflective glass on their displays.  ::)

Rusty metal edges on interior chassis parts. Low grade electrolytic caps.

Do you have the RTB2000 scope? The display is one of the clearest, sharpest ones I've seen. I have no problem with the reflective glass. I clean it with "Invisible Glass" once and a while and as I've said here before once you focus on the screens info you forget it's glossy. I have scopes with frosted screens and I prefer the R&S.

I think engineers have to just use this thing for awhile. I've watched videos where people complain about this function or that function of an instrument that really are meaningless. Use something everyday and you learn to work with the differences from one brand to another to the point that they have very little if any overall effect.
The more I use this scope the more comfortable I become with the ergonomics and that let's me do real work. Add that to the build quality (do you actually think Siglent is built as well as R&S?) and you have a real instrument that you can rely on day in and day out. Why do you think the industry uses Tek, Keysight and R&S? The buggers last! The HP 34401a is still going strong and still selling on eBay for a good price.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on April 26, 2017, 01:22:19 pm
Siglent also uses cheap capacitors and inferior materials.
>:(
You'd better qualify those remarks, if you can.  :P

At least Siglent don't use a highly reflective glass on their displays.  ::)

Rusty metal edges on interior chassis parts.
And a Tek TDS2012B I have has rust on the chassis edges too. Your point is ?

Quote
Low grade electrolytic caps.
I have seen none fail or heard of any that have. Siglent use Leylon caps in their in-house designed and built PSU's and have for some time.
But I suppose the Nichicon caps they use in the mainboards could give trouble but I've not heard of any fail either.
Maybe some engineer just might know where to use what, don't you think ?

Quote
Do you have the RTB2000 scope? The display is one of the clearest, sharpest ones I've seen.

No and I studied this thread from it's inception and most of the Vids and all show too shiny glass IMO.
Fine if you need a mirror to comb your hair with but as you get older there's a chance you don't need a comb or a mirror glass scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 26, 2017, 01:29:36 pm
No and I studied this thread from it's inception and most of the Vids and all show too shiny glass IMO.
Fine if you need a mirror to comb your hair with but as you get older there's a chance you don't need a comb or a mirror glass scope.
IMHO you are overreacting. A glossy screen isn't a problem because most of what reflects in it is out of focus anyway. Apple tends to agree otherwise they wouldn't put glossy screens in their devices. Heck, if glossy displays where such a problem to use they wouldn't exist!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 26, 2017, 01:35:23 pm
Even with full pricing it comes in well under the Keysight with the same options.
That doesn't say Keysight is good value for money. IMHO there is a market for full featured scopes in the $2000 to $5000 range and manufacturers finally start to step into this segment.

No one is questioning this and how are they doing it? I think the guys who deserve the kudos are AD, etc., they keep coming out with great chips that make manufacturers look like stars. We will only get better stuff, cheaper stuff but I'd rather have that in a Keysight, etc. than a Chinese (at least for the time  being) product.
Is Keysight a good value? Don't we have to look at a lot of other parameters? How well it holds up, how well it maintains tolerances, resale, etc. Look at the prices of Keysight stuff on eBay, then go look at the price of used Chinese equipment on eBay.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 26, 2017, 01:46:12 pm
Siglent also uses cheap capacitors and inferior materials.
>:(
You'd better qualify those remarks, if you can.  :P

At least Siglent don't use a highly reflective glass on their displays.  ::)

Rusty metal edges on interior chassis parts.
And a Tek TDS2012B I have has rust on the chassis edges too. Your point is ?

Quote
Low grade electrolytic caps.
I have seen none fail or heard of any that have. Siglent use Leylon caps in their in-house designed and built PSU's and have for some time.
But I suppose the Nichicon caps they use in the mainboards could give trouble but I've not heard of any fail either.
Maybe some engineer just might know where to use what, don't you think ?

Quote
Do you have the RTB2000 scope? The display is one of the clearest, sharpest ones I've seen.

No and I studied this thread from it's inception and most of the Vids and all show too shiny glass IMO.
Fine if you need a mirror to comb your hair with but as you get older there's a chance you don't need a comb or a mirror glass scope.

The TDS is a cheap scope but it has a lifetime warranty if I remember. It still has much better resale than Chinese equipment too.

You don't even have the RTB2000 scope (aluminum chassis, by  the way). I do and again, it's a joy to use, an absolute pleasure.

I'm not going to nit pick a scope with someone who doesn't even have one. Give me something to work with here! Geeze.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 26, 2017, 01:46:22 pm
Can we keep on-topic please!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 26, 2017, 01:50:11 pm
I missed that part at the bottom. "NZ Siglent distributor" Now I see the problem!

Look, I'm sure Siglent is fine but it's not R&S, etc. Please let's be honest!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 26, 2017, 01:58:43 pm
Can we keep on-topic please!

Mike,
My point is that if you ask people to find fault with something they will, nothing's perfect but let's keep it real. Sure it's not perfect but the glossy screen thing is way overreacting. I have TV's, monitors, pads, etc. with glossy screens and I've been using the R&S with no problems in that area.

It reminds me of the old quote from my Navy days, "A bitching sailor is a happy sailor!"
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on April 26, 2017, 02:14:56 pm
Can we keep on-topic please!
Agreed! This thread has been generally very useful (albeit dangerous to one's wallet) - thanks to everyone for all the helpful info.

Mike - did the R&S guys make any comments about if they would like general questions and suggestions passed onto them? If so, who to?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 26, 2017, 02:31:25 pm
Sure it has a glossy screen ... more than others. But actual smartphones have the same glossy screen. With a dark screen/background you have a high miror effect too. I already got used to it and don´t see a big issue on that. And I´m in daily usage with the scope now.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 26, 2017, 02:47:23 pm
Sure it has a glossy screen ... more than others. But actual smartphones have the same glossy screen. With a dark screen/background you have a high miror effect too. I already got used to it and don´t see a big issue on that. And I´m in daily usage with the scope now.

Yes, I'm doing the same thing and as I think about it I like the glossy screen more. It seems sharper to me just like my Android does. The detail on this display is very special in my view.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 26, 2017, 03:04:08 pm
Can we keep on-topic please!
Agreed! This thread has been generally very useful (albeit dangerous to one's wallet) - thanks to everyone for all the helpful info.

Mike - did the R&S guys make any comments about if they would like general questions and suggestions passed onto them? If so, who to?

I'm sure they would appreciate constructive suggestions - one issue they have is they are fairly new to the scope market ( though like Rich, Joel is also ex Agilent), and  most of their serious users are in-house R&S people. Rich's thread here is probably as good a place as any.

Re. shiny screen it's all about position - if there is only one place you can sensibly put a scope, and it reflects glare, it's a major problem, if not, it's a non-issue. (The R&S guys didn't like it either BTW!)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 26, 2017, 03:06:57 pm
Sure it has a glossy screen ... more than others. But actual smartphones have the same glossy screen. With a dark screen/background you have a high miror effect too.
That makes me wonder... why do all scopes still have a dark background? I did some TFT conversions on old test equipment and in those cases I always went for a white background. It is much easier for the eyes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on April 26, 2017, 03:09:06 pm
I hate white background. It is way to bright to stare at it all the time.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on April 26, 2017, 03:14:01 pm
That makes me wonder... why do all scopes still have a dark background? I did some TFT conversions on old test equipment and in those cases I always went for a white background. It is much easier for the eyes.

I think intensity grading is more clearly seen on a dark background, as are weak traces: It is easier to spot a trace with 5% brightness on a black background, than a trace with 95% brightness on a 100% white background.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 26, 2017, 03:20:43 pm
Octane,
Maybe if you had a color option and you could pick a muted white you might like it. I know that with my EDA I'm pretty fussy about the schematic side and the grid background but on the PCB side I use black. Could just be that after 30 years I'm used to it.

Picoscope which runs a computer display show their demo shots with a white background. I'd like the option to fiddle with it to see which works better over time.

Mike, interesting that the R&S guy didn't like the glossy screen, I'd like to talk to the engineers who picked it. Did they have the non-glare option? Maybe it was a price thing or they couldn't get the specs they wanted in a different surface.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 26, 2017, 08:13:02 pm
...  Re. shiny screen it's all about position - if there is only one place you can sensibly put a scope, and it reflects glare, it's a major problem, if not, it's a non-issue. (The R&S guys didn't like it either BTW!)

@mike: Whats your experience with using a display foil?
Does it have major effects to the touchability?

My expirience is (and it might be disgusting) that a touched display is more responsive than a fresh cleaned one. Cleaned up it felt a little sticky ...

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on April 26, 2017, 08:17:09 pm
I got the same screen protector for my scope that Mike recommended, cut it to size, and couldn't be happier with it. While the screen was very nice before the screen protector was applied, it's just drop-dead gorgeous now. No glare problem, no perceivable difference in touches. I'm very happy with the screen protector. If somebody didn't know that there was a glossy screen underneath, they would never be able to tell.

*Brian
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 26, 2017, 08:23:46 pm
...  Re. shiny screen it's all about position - if there is only one place you can sensibly put a scope, and it reflects glare, it's a major problem, if not, it's a non-issue. (The R&S guys didn't like it either BTW!)

@mike: Whats your experience with using a display foil?
Does it have major effects to the touchability?

My expirience is (and it might be disgusting) that a touched dispaly is more responsive than a fresh cleaned one. Cleaned up it felt a littla sticky ...
Protector seems to have no effect on touch operation or visibility. After a while you do see finger marks when viewed from an angle but doesn't affect normal operation. Cleans off quite well with IPA.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 26, 2017, 08:30:39 pm
That makes me wonder... why do all scopes still have a dark background? I did some TFT conversions on old test equipment and in those cases I always went for a white background. It is much easier for the eyes.

White is a typical color for general PC usage ...
When using this on a scope you´ll get problems with the coloring of the waveforms ...
Colors like pure yellow, green or cyan won´t work that good due to their high brigthness on contrast to the white background.
And reducing max. intensity for them will loose step within the color scale  for dark to bright.
Otherwise you´ll need a complete different color set for white background ... which might be good for the color blind people.

Can somebody post a shot of a picoscope?

PS: my eye specalist once said: the more change you give to your eyes the better it is ... ( esp. if working in front of monitors )
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 26, 2017, 09:03:27 pm
So seems like my scope acts up in the presence of its R&S Masters... After the not-booting issue when they arrived, it's now playing completely dead - power LED on, but nothing else.

Time to see how good their warranty service is.
Hopefully better than recent experience with keysight MSOX3104T, where their Fedex collection courier managed to lose it for a month (though to be fair Keysight did offer a loan unit).



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 26, 2017, 09:06:12 pm
That makes me wonder... why do all scopes still have a dark background? I did some TFT conversions on old test equipment and in those cases I always went for a white background. It is much easier for the eyes.
I think intensity grading is more clearly seen on a dark background, as are weak traces: It is easier to spot a trace with 5% brightness on a black background, than a trace with 95% brightness on a 100% white background.
On a TFT screen or sharp CRT that doesn't make any difference (with the 5% and 95% corrected for the optical performance of the display).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on April 26, 2017, 09:09:41 pm
So seems like my scope acts up in the presence of its R&S Masters... After the not-booting issue when they arrived, it's now playing completely dead - power LED on, but nothing else.

Time to see how good their warranty service is.
Hopefully better than recent experience with keysight MSOX3104T, where their Fedex collection courier managed to lose it for a month (though to be fair Keysight did offer a loan unit).
Must be the caps.  :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 26, 2017, 09:15:42 pm
That makes me wonder... why do all scopes still have a dark background? I did some TFT conversions on old test equipment and in those cases I always went for a white background. It is much easier for the eyes.

White is a typical color for general PC usage ...
When using this on a scope you´ll get problems with the coloring of the waveforms ...
Colors like pure yellow, green or cyan won´t work that good due to their high brigthness on contrast to the white background.
And reducing max. intensity for them will loose step within the color scale  for dark to bright.
Otherwise you´ll need a complete different color set for white background ... which might be good for the color blind people.

Can somebody post a shot of a picoscope?

PS: my eye specalist once said: the more change you give to your eyes the better it is ... ( esp. if working in front of monitors )

Picoscope
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 26, 2017, 09:18:40 pm
So seems like my scope acts up in the presence of its R&S Masters... After the not-booting issue when they arrived, it's now playing completely dead - power LED on, but nothing else.

Time to see how good their warranty service is.
Hopefully better than recent experience with keysight MSOX3104T, where their Fedex collection courier managed to lose it for a month (though to be fair Keysight did offer a loan unit).
Must be the caps.  :-DD

That's how they offered the promo so cheap, they shipped them out with Siglent guts! >:D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 26, 2017, 09:25:48 pm
So seems like my scope acts up in the presence of its R&S Masters... After the not-booting issue when they arrived, it's now playing completely dead - power LED on, but nothing else.

Time to see how good their warranty service is.
Hopefully better than recent experience with keysight MSOX3104T, where their Fedex collection courier managed to lose it for a month (though to be fair Keysight did offer a loan unit).
Must be the caps.  :-DD
That's how they offered the promo so cheap, they shipped them out with Siglent guts! >:D
At least they didn't outsource the firmware to Siglent  >:D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on April 26, 2017, 09:52:12 pm
So seems like my scope acts up in the presence of its R&S Masters... After the not-booting issue when they arrived, it's now playing completely dead - power LED on, but nothing else.

Time to see how good their warranty service is.
Obviously it's a different story with your unit, which they expect to be taken apart, but did you see any evidence that the warranty would be void if you opened it up? Saw the "Calibration Void" sticker, but this is less of a concern to me in hobbyist use. Would be a shame to have something on my workbench that I haven't opened to have a look inside!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 26, 2017, 09:53:31 pm
So seems like my scope acts up in the presence of its R&S Masters... After the not-booting issue when they arrived, it's now playing completely dead - power LED on, but nothing else.

Time to see how good their warranty service is.
Obviously it's a different story with your unit, which they expect to be taken apart, but did you see any evidence that the warranty would be void if you opened it up? Saw the "Calibration Void" sticker, but this is less of a concern to me in hobbyist use. Would be a shame to have something on my workbench that I haven't opened to have a look inside!
No, only calibration.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 26, 2017, 10:56:57 pm
So seems like my scope acts up in the presence of its R&S Masters... After the not-booting issue when they arrived, it's now playing completely dead - power LED on, but nothing else.

Time to see how good their warranty service is.
Hopefully better than recent experience with keysight MSOX3104T, where their Fedex collection courier managed to lose it for a month (though to be fair Keysight did offer a loan unit).
Must be the caps.  :-DD

That's how they offered the promo so cheap, they shipped them out with Siglent guts! >:D
Siglent seems to be the benchmark for LOW QUALITY.  I have not owned any Siglent instrument, is it really that BAD?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 26, 2017, 11:09:56 pm
"Siglent seems to be the benchmark for LOW QUALITY.  I have not owned any Siglent instrument, is it really that BAD?"

It's all in good fun.

I heard they have an MTBF of at least two weeks.  :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on April 26, 2017, 11:30:18 pm
...though datasheet says UART to 32Mbaud but it seems to stop at 3Mbaud. I have queried this as IMO 3M is too low.

Mike, just curious, have you ever received a definitive answer back on the baud rate?  May have already been posted and I missed it.



One thing that looks good for the long term is they are planning a higher-end model which will use the same software base, so we can expect improvements and updates to percolate down from this development. (This is also the reason for all the empty space in the case).

Slightly embarrassing moment when I first turned it on in front of them and it crashed -  one tip is that you can force a factory reset by holding the PRESET button when the splash screen appears. 
 
 

WOW - that is fantastic news about the higher end model.  I would buy that in a second.  Maybe if we are lucky next March.  The higher end model would almost certainly solve any lag problems with a faster processor.  Might even have the BNC connectors screwed down to the case and non-detent fine-adjust encoders.  :)   If they would make that model with a per-channel set of vertical knobs I would be in scope heaven.

Hey since you've mentioned it I'll go ahead and say that my RTB2004 from Newark weeks ago was crashy right out of the box.  Using it directly and over the remote Ethernet.  The crashing (screen/button/processor lock up) got progressively worse over a few days until it just would lock up entirely after boot.  Rich @ R&S was absolutely fantastic on assistance with the problem and in the end that "holding down the preset at the boot splash screen" procedure completely solved it.  The procedure isn't in the user manual, either, unless they have added it since then. The RTB2004 has worked perfectly ever since.  If anyone is having RTB behaviour problems, give that a try.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BrianSchmalz on April 26, 2017, 11:32:12 pm
I just had an intense debugging session with the scope, and I had to make heavy use of the cursors on digital signals. Wow - it is so much faster and easier than using knobs to move the cursors! You get good at rocking the tip of your finger to move that cursor one pixel or two at a time- it becomes second nature very quickly.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 26, 2017, 11:55:36 pm
Siglent seems to be the benchmark for LOW QUALITY.  I have not owned any Siglent instrument, is it really that BAD?
No it isn't. The hardware is quite decent and the rust is a running gag but the biggest let down in Siglent equipment is the buggy/incomplete firmware. When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted. You won't find that kind of cost optimisations in GW Instek, Rigol or Siglent scopes. In those the input BNCs are bolted to the chassis (for as far as I have seen so far) as they should because these connectors get a lot of abuse.

edit: Made in China means they can built things properly while still keeping labour costs down. Even in the Czech Republic it will be expensive to have an employee mount a PCB onto a metal frame and tighten a couple of nuts on  5 BNC connectors.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 27, 2017, 12:03:23 am
...though datasheet says UART to 32Mbaud but it seems to stop at 3Mbaud. I have queried this as IMO 3M is too low.

Mike, just curious, have you ever received a definitive answer back on the baud rate?
No, but I did mention to them today that 3M wasn't enough.

BTW one other thing today was they thought that the greyed search on serial trigger was probably a 'not yet implemented' rather than not doable.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: masto on April 27, 2017, 11:38:54 am
Continental Resources (http://www.conres.com/test-equipment (http://www.conres.com/test-equipment)) still has some in stock. They don't take online orders so you have to request a "Quote". I placed an order last week and it was shipped same day...

I just wanted to say thanks for posting this. I was late to the party on this scope; I saw some of the videos on my favorite YouTube channels but I was only half paying attention and by the time I realized I might seriously consider dropping two grand on a replacement for my DS1052E, it seemed like I'd missed the window. Fortunately you pointed out the apparently last place that still had some on order. Mine arrived yesterday and what an upgrade it is for this home gamer!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 27, 2017, 12:00:24 pm
You guys see this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/352040549226?ul_noapp=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/352040549226?ul_noapp=true)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 27, 2017, 12:15:25 pm
Siglent seems to be the benchmark for LOW QUALITY.  I have not owned any Siglent instrument, is it really that BAD?
No it isn't. The hardware is quite decent and the rust is a running gag but the biggest let down in Siglent equipment is the buggy/incomplete firmware. When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted. You won't find that kind of cost optimisations in GW Instek, Rigol or Siglent scopes. In those the input BNCs are bolted to the chassis (for as far as I have seen so far) as they should because these connectors get a lot of abuse.

edit: Made in China means they can built things properly while still keeping labour costs down. Even in the Czech Republic it will be expensive to have an employee mount a PCB onto a metal frame and tighten a couple of nuts on  5 BNC connectors.

I watched Mike's breakdown and it looks like the jacks are pretty well built on the RTB. I've run high end instruments for years with stuff on PCB boards and even designed circuits using the same technology. I don't know of many laptops that don't have jacks attached right to the board. Done right they're not really a problem.
Saves a ton of time and production costs just like SMD over thru hole does. It's the future, the less labor and the more automation the cheaper it is, heck I'm doing mostly SMD now. The world is working to eliminate jobs, it used to be that we spiraled down to the world's cheapest labor force but those days are coming to an end.
Get an education and run the robots or hope you get one of the few manual labor jobs left. I got an education, I figured it was better than hanging off the back of a garbage truck at 6 am, I have an aversion to bad odors!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 27, 2017, 12:24:15 pm
When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted.
As with the endlessly tedious discuusion about PSU caps, until we see one actually break, nobody can offer any meaningful information as to whether it's any better or worse.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 27, 2017, 12:34:28 pm
When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted.
As with the endlessly tedious discuusion about PSU caps, until we see one actually break, nobody can offer any meaningful information as to whether it's any better or worse.
Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: dr.diesel on April 27, 2017, 12:38:49 pm
Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!

I have seen this many times as well, but never once on bench/desk mounted equipment.  Field used gear of-course get damaged any number of ways, and stuff mounted in 19" racks gets damaged by roll around chairs or people walking into them with long probes attached.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 27, 2017, 12:40:10 pm
When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted.
As with the endlessly tedious discuusion about PSU caps, until we see one actually break, nobody can offer any meaningful information as to whether it's any better or worse.

Don't tell that to Dave!

Hey has anyone actually disassembled one of those Chinese caps and done a comparison? Audio guys are always clamoring about caps but they're.... well - audio guys-. Way down on my list of groups that do reality checking.
I've used Panasonic caps for years in switching supplies and they hold up well. I like seeing high end caps in the R&S, maybe just me but if a cap is going to go south I'll bet it's in a switching supply.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 27, 2017, 12:49:28 pm
Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!

I have seen this many times as well, but never once on bench/desk mounted equipment.  Field used gear of-course get damaged any number of ways, and stuff mounted in 19" racks gets damaged by roll around chairs or people walking into them with long probes attached.

A 250 lb guy rolling a chair into any rack mounted instrument jack is going to toast it. This is a several $K bench scope with no rack mounting hardware. Geeze!

If I remember Dave did a video where he dropped, ran over and kicked around a Keysight meter that stood up incredibly well. Guess what? Jacks on the board!

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 27, 2017, 12:56:57 pm
Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!
I have seen this many times as well, but never once on bench/desk mounted equipment.
I have seen it on desktop equipment as well. Go on Ebay and see for yourself.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on April 27, 2017, 01:05:39 pm
You guys see this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/352040549226?ul_noapp=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/352040549226?ul_noapp=true)
So this for: only max. 2 promo scopes per buyer. This guy has already sold 2 of the RTB2004.
I was wondering why they sold at Newark.com 4 or 6 (cannot remember) of these scopes at once (I looked at the stock and a minute later 4 or 6 suddenly were gone).
Now he raised his price from 3200 to 4000 USD. Still a good deal - I am sure he will sell it for this price too. But it is of course annoying for those who did not get even one RTB2004 COM4.
However: if would live in the US, I probably would have also tried purchasing three or four ... then selling them but one, which I would kept then for me (=for free).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 27, 2017, 01:13:42 pm
Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!
I have seen this many times as well, but never once on bench/desk mounted equipment.
I have seen it on desktop equipment as well. Go on Ebay and see for yourself.

OK, now I want a link.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on April 27, 2017, 01:18:51 pm
When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted.
As with the endlessly tedious discuusion about PSU caps, until we see one actually break, nobody can offer any meaningful information as to whether it's any better or worse.
The BNC's used DO look nice but without them retained by nuts IMO this is the main cause of the microphonic behaviour. I think their mounting system will be adequate to survive the knocks and bumps but if they do get damaged they might also be harder to replace in this style. Tradeoffs.  :horse:
Time will tell.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 27, 2017, 01:29:42 pm
Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!
I have seen this many times as well, but never once on bench/desk mounted equipment.
I have seen it on desktop equipment as well. Go on Ebay and see for yourself.

OK, now I want a link.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/KEYSIGHT-Infiniivision-MSOX3034T-Mixed-signal-Oscilloscope-350Mhz-MEGA-ZOOM-/172559013145?hash=item282d519519:g:GqYAAOSwhlZYuQIj (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/KEYSIGHT-Infiniivision-MSOX3034T-Mixed-signal-Oscilloscope-350Mhz-MEGA-ZOOM-/172559013145?hash=item282d519519:g:GqYAAOSwhlZYuQIj)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 27, 2017, 01:30:31 pm
When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted.
As with the endlessly tedious discuusion about PSU caps, until we see one actually break, nobody can offer any meaningful information as to whether it's any better or worse.
The BNC's used DO look nice but without them retained by nuts IMO this is the main cause of the microphonic behaviour. I think their mounting system will be adequate to survive the knocks and bumps but if they do get damaged they might also be harder to replace in this style. Tradeoffs.  :horse:
Time will tell.

I think MLCC's are the cause of the microphonics.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 27, 2017, 01:34:30 pm
Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!
I have seen this many times as well, but never once on bench/desk mounted equipment.
I have seen it on desktop equipment as well. Go on Ebay and see for yourself.

OK, now I want a link.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/KEYSIGHT-Infiniivision-MSOX3034T-Mixed-signal-Oscilloscope-350Mhz-MEGA-ZOOM-/172559013145?hash=item282d519519:g:GqYAAOSwhlZYuQIj (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/KEYSIGHT-Infiniivision-MSOX3034T-Mixed-signal-Oscilloscope-350Mhz-MEGA-ZOOM-/172559013145?hash=item282d519519:g:GqYAAOSwhlZYuQIj)

This is just a damaged scope, there's nothing there about the jacks. For all we know they're still intact.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 27, 2017, 01:36:23 pm
Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!
I have seen this many times as well, but never once on bench/desk mounted equipment.
I have seen it on desktop equipment as well. Go on Ebay and see for yourself.
OK, now I want a link.
From my own archives. On the HP machine the inner chassis is bent due to the force applied to the BNC connectors. The Tektronix scope got dropped ruining the barrel of the right most BNC.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on April 27, 2017, 01:37:05 pm
When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted.
As with the endlessly tedious discuusion about PSU caps, until we see one actually break, nobody can offer any meaningful information as to whether it's any better or worse.
The BNC's used DO look nice but without them retained by nuts IMO this is the main cause of the microphonic behaviour. I think their mounting system will be adequate to survive the knocks and bumps but if they do get damaged they might also be harder to replace in this style. Tradeoffs.  :horse:
Time will tell.

I think MLCC's are the cause of the microphonics.
Yep but what is the main shock transmission medium to the MLCC's ?
No bulkhead BNC.

It's an oversight in the design, fatal for some like Dave and it would drive him mad but others could well live happily with it. Me, not sure but at least we're all now well aware of it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 27, 2017, 01:39:24 pm
Again: I have hands on experience with equipment which got abused and the ones with the BNCs bolted to the chassis survive better than the ones with surface mount BNCs. For me it is already history!
I have seen this many times as well, but never once on bench/desk mounted equipment.
I have seen it on desktop equipment as well. Go on Ebay and see for yourself.
OK, now I want a link.
From my own archives:

OK, If someone throws my RTB off the back of a moving truck and the guy behind him drives over it I'll check the jacks!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on April 27, 2017, 02:08:01 pm
You guys see this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/352040549226?ul_noapp=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/352040549226?ul_noapp=true)

These sales are an interesting free-market test of the R&S list price point.  If $4,000 isn't selling quickly what does that say about the $7,900 list price?  To be fair, in this particular case the market is likely a bit flooded after all the recent promo sales.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on April 27, 2017, 02:18:48 pm
Buying a single item off ebay is probably not the preferred way to purchase test equipment for companies/professional users, so doesn't necessarily say much about what they (the main market) would pay.

I also assume (though don't know) that a lot of users wouldn't end up paying full list price for a loaded up model if they called up and asked what kind of deal could be done.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 27, 2017, 02:19:01 pm
When it comes to built quality I'm not impressed with the RTB2000 and that is mostly due to the surface mounted input BNCs which aren't bolted to the chassis and the way the PCB is mounted.
As with the endlessly tedious discuusion about PSU caps, until we see one actually break, nobody can offer any meaningful information as to whether it's any better or worse.
The BNC's used DO look nice but without them retained by nuts IMO this is the main cause of the microphonic behaviour. I think their mounting system will be adequate to survive the knocks and bumps but if they do get damaged they might also be harder to replace in this style. Tradeoffs.  :horse:
Time will tell.

I think MLCC's are the cause of the microphonics.
Yep but what is the main shock transmission medium to the MLCC's ?
No bulkhead BNC.

It's an oversight in the design, fatal for some like Dave and it would drive him mad but others could well live happily with it. Me, not sure but at least we're all now well aware of it.

I think the case transmits vibration to the board. MLCC's are known for microphonics, doesn't bother me I'm not pounding nails into hardwood blocks with the case, throwing the scope off the back of moving trucks or shinning a spotlight on the screen so I can use it as a mirror to shave. I just need it for trouble shooting from a hundred foot extension cord in the Arctic Tundra! (actually I think the glossy screen works better when it's snowing!)

Reality check!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 27, 2017, 07:51:52 pm
Has anyone used a mouse with their scope? I tried two wireless mice but they didn't work properly. I finally tried a wired mouse which works but I'd like to use wireless mice.
Thanks
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: theatrus on April 27, 2017, 09:04:39 pm
Has anyone used a mouse with their scope? I tried two wireless mice but they didn't work properly. I finally tried a wired mouse which works but I'd like to use wireless mice.
Thanks

Didn't realize this was an option!

Most of the wireless dongles are a composite HID device (keyboard and mouse) so likely the scope doesn't know what to do with it. Which ones did you try?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 27, 2017, 10:33:05 pm
Has anyone used a mouse with their scope? I tried two wireless mice but they didn't work properly. I finally tried a wired mouse which works but I'd like to use wireless mice.
Thanks

Didn't realize this was an option!

Most of the wireless dongles are a composite HID device (keyboard and mouse) so likely the scope doesn't know what to do with it. Which ones did you try?

Two Logitech wireless and a wired Logitech gaming mouse I use for CAD/CAM and EDA. This worked fine. I think there's an R&S guy using a wireless mouse on an instruction vid.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 27, 2017, 11:46:57 pm
That's interesting. I just grabbed my wireless USB keyboard/mouse pad to try. It did something, cursor moved up and down screen but not horizontally. Mouse click made the cursor move to the right. So trying to do something but nothing usable or sensible. I then tried my logitech mouse, but no action at all. It's one of the unified USB setups, so that doesn't surprise me. If we can use a USB mouse and/or keyboard, it would have been nice to have a second USB on the rear for it so the front stays free for storage.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on April 28, 2017, 04:10:41 am
Most of the wireless dongles are a composite HID device (keyboard and mouse)
Many recent Logitech dongles follow their unify protocol and work with a both a keyboard and a mouse. Still, many Logitech mice come with a mouse only dongle, and most dongles from other makers are mouse or keyboard only.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on April 28, 2017, 04:49:16 am
In addition to the proprietary dongles like the Unifying stuff from Logitech, which tend to work out of the box, there is substantial resurgence of Bluetooth keyboards because of iPhone/iPad/Android connectivity and there is very little chance these will work as they need a proprietary driver and a full sw bluetooth stack to present a keyboard device to the OS.

It's hard enough to make those work on PCs (bluetooth stack...) and 99% of PCs can't use bluetooth keybords at boot (no bluetooth stack in the BIOS).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 28, 2017, 11:54:27 am
That's interesting. I just grabbed my wireless USB keyboard/mouse pad to try. It did something, cursor moved up and down screen but not horizontally. Mouse click made the cursor move to the right. So trying to do something but nothing usable or sensible. I then tried my logitech mouse, but no action at all. It's one of the unified USB setups, so that doesn't surprise me. If we can use a USB mouse and/or keyboard, it would have been nice to have a second USB on the rear for it so the front stays free for storage.

Joel,
My Logitech mice did just about the same thing. There is another usb on the back, a type 'B'.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 28, 2017, 12:47:51 pm
Type B is generally not for being a USB host. If you could get the right adapter, dont think it would work. Something to look into.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 28, 2017, 01:05:24 pm
That's interesting. I just grabbed my wireless USB keyboard/mouse pad to try. It did something, cursor moved up and down screen but not horizontally. Mouse click made the cursor move to the right. So trying to do something but nothing usable or sensible. I then tried my logitech mouse, but no action at all. It's one of the unified USB setups, so that doesn't surprise me. If we can use a USB mouse and/or keyboard, it would have been nice to have a second USB on the rear for it so the front stays free for storage.

Joel,
My Logitech mice did just about the same thing. There is another usb on the back, a type 'B'.

This one used for connecting the scope to computer. Via MTP protocol or remote control via TMC.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 28, 2017, 01:26:23 pm
Type B is generally not for being a USB host. If you could get the right adapter, dont think it would work. Something to look into.

Right, I checked it - no +5V -.

OK, my suggestion to R&S is to run two usb ports.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 28, 2017, 01:48:03 pm
Type B is generally not for being a USB host. If you could get the right adapter, dont think it would work. Something to look into.

Right, I checked it - no +5V -.

OK, my suggestion to R&S is to run two usb ports.

The HMO3000 series had two USB device ports. Buts it has a plugable interface card as well which provides USB/Ethernet connectivity.
The HMO1202 has already USB/Ethernet interfaces on board. But only one USB port for a thumb drive.
R&S might just have put the interfaces on board ... thats it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 28, 2017, 02:10:47 pm
Type B is generally not for being a USB host. If you could get the right adapter, dont think it would work. Something to look into.

Right, I checked it - no +5V -.

OK, my suggestion to R&S is to run two usb ports.

Not a huge deal, as you have the fast network and USB device functionality to get data out.
have you tried a hub ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: masto on April 28, 2017, 02:20:55 pm
It would be cool to press the save button on the scope and have it send the screenshot or data somewhere over the network. The existing options of plugging in a USB device and then moving it to a computer to copy the files off, or using the remote web interface to grab the data, are not terrible, but the convenience of just dropping it into a folder on my computer straight from the scope would be awesome.

(Unless it already does this and I missed it in my ~1 day of playing around)

I'm a total newbie when it comes to higher-end test equipment, so I got really excited by the remote UI and recorded a video last night (https://youtu.be/Nd2Sb_5vJF8). Looking at it now, it's a bit embarrassing, especially as I'm probably going on and on about something that has been around on other products for a while. I guess we all remember our first.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 28, 2017, 02:45:33 pm
It would be cool to press the save button on the scope and have it send the screenshot or data somewhere over the network. The existing options of plugging in a USB device and then moving it to a computer to copy the files off, or using the remote web interface to grab the data, are not terrible, but the convenience of just dropping it into a folder on my computer straight from the scope would be awesome.

You can do almost that using the USB MTP mode - scope appears as a drive on your PC, and you can drag out a file containing a PNG of the current screen image or other data. You don't need to touch the scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: grouchobyte on April 28, 2017, 02:52:14 pm
@masto

Thanks for the short video. I have a keysight DSOX3104 and have the web UI which is quite useful plus the ability to save files on my network in a variety of formats including matlab

I do lots of precision analog design and have tons of test gear including a dozen or so scopes of varying vintages ranging from real time analog to 10 GS sampling scopes.

Being an ex tektronix hardware engineer I obviously lean towards Tek gear. However, in recent years it seems TEK have given the lead to RS and HP.....er  keysight in the midrange market

I evaluated a demo RTE series box last week and was impressed with the hardware and performance but hated the UI and the windows 7 OS  uggg that goes with that. It crashed several times to a windows exception error. Not acceptable for a $14k box

However, I like the 10 bit FE end on this RTB scope and the modern implementation with the fluid web UI.
I would pick one up for some of my low end work and recycle some of my TDS boxes. For higher end work, i would still rely on my Keysight box. The local rep is fedxing an RTB to me so I guess I will see for myself what the excitment is all about

Question: do you know if this scope can easily export or save to matlab format for offline analysis. That would very useful for me.

Thanks
@grouchobyte

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 28, 2017, 03:02:54 pm
Mike,
I just dug out an old hub, I have to make an adapter, I'll let everyone know if it works.
Rob
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 28, 2017, 03:07:37 pm
Question: do you know if this scope can easily export or save to matlab format for offline analysis. That would very useful for me.
I think the available formats (via USB MTP) are raw binary and CSV.
If the PC application supports it, I believe it can do some sort of 'live update' by refreshing the file.
More info here :
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Import_ac_en_3607-0446-92_v0100.pdf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Myrv on April 28, 2017, 03:11:53 pm

Well my scope finally arrived yesterday (introductory offer).  Unfortunately it has to go back today  :(

Annoyingly it showed up with (at best) a dead Real Time Clock battery or (at worst) something more fundamentally wrong.

The very first time I turned it on I was met with the following screen:

(http://i.imgur.com/Vn93AkC.png)

This then lead to:

(http://i.imgur.com/q2UiPpw.png)

and

(http://i.imgur.com/LQOx2zD.png)


Interesting that a dead RTC battery will cause the scope to disable features.

The battery does appear to physically be there:

(http://i.imgur.com/eD5XGhx.jpg)


Unfortunately to get to it I have to remove the rear cover which involves breaking the "Calibration Void if Broken" seal.   Ya, I know, just a sticker but I don't have anything else to compare against in case something does go wrong and  I don't want any hassles if the problem turns out to be bigger than a dodgy battery.   

I was hoping to be able to simply get an exchange from Testforce but they do not have any units to swap. They've just forwarded me to R&S warranty.  Not an auspicious start.












Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: grouchobyte on April 28, 2017, 03:14:35 pm
Question: do you know if this scope can easily export or save to matlab format for offline analysis. That would very useful for me.
I think the available formats (via USB MTP) are raw binary and CSV.
If the PC application supports it, I believe it can do some sort of 'live update' by refreshing the file.
More info here :
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Import_ac_en_3607-0446-92_v0100.pdf


Thanks Mike!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 28, 2017, 03:24:41 pm
So your software options get disabled due to a bad/empty battery?  :wtf: Good to know... I don't want test equipment to fail for such a minor error so R&S exit....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: masto on April 28, 2017, 03:29:06 pm
That would suck marginally less if the options are reenabled after fixing the battery/clock. Fingers crossed?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 28, 2017, 03:42:05 pm
That would suck marginally less if the options are reenabled after fixing the battery/clock. Fingers crossed?

I´d expect that too.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: grouchobyte on April 28, 2017, 03:44:45 pm
I would assume RS are not stupid enough to reset or disable the option licence keys permanently when the
RT clock battery is dead. It would make sense to temporarily disable certain options from working but after the battery is replaced, all options should continue to work since the licence keys reside in FLASH and need the date and time to validate and enable the license
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 28, 2017, 03:46:27 pm
You should be able to measure the battery - use long monkey-arse probe onto the clip, which will be positive and ground to the BNC.

Might also be interesting to force 3v onto the battery, reset the clock and see if the options restore.
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on April 28, 2017, 03:48:22 pm
I would somehow expect that a clock changing deactivates options. How else should they ensure that timed licenses work? They probably have some fancy crypto ongoing as well. That's not like shareware in the nineties.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Myrv on April 28, 2017, 03:49:21 pm
That would suck marginally less if the options are reenabled after fixing the battery/clock. Fingers crossed?

Sorry, should have mentioned after resetting the date and going to the setup page it appeared the options were all (re)enabled (although in my confusion I didn't actually check the options page before setting the date to see what it said, had a bit of trouble finding it at first).  Even stranger is all the options were listed as permanent so I don't know why any would be disabled due to clock manipulation anyway.   Unfortunately I didn't have time to actually try any of the options.    Power cycling the scope after setting the date resulted in the exact same error messages though (and a cleared clock).  I will have a closer look at the setup page (before setting the date)  when I get back from work.  It is frustrating.




Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 28, 2017, 03:50:08 pm
I would assume RS are not stupid enough to reset or disable the option licence keys permanently when the
RT clock battery is dead. It would make sense to temporarily disable certain options from working but after the battery is replaced, all options should continue to work since the licence keys reside in FLASH and need the date and time to validate and enable the license
One would hope that it's simply a case of being outside the current time window. maybe you could test this by resetting the time, and power-cycling briefly - there may be a cap that will hold the time for a short time.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 28, 2017, 03:51:56 pm
That would suck marginally less if the options are reenabled after fixing the battery/clock. Fingers crossed?

Sorry, should have mentioned after resetting the date and going to the setup page it appeared the options were all (re)enabled (although in my confusion I didn't actually check the options page before setting the date to see what it said, had a bit of trouble finding it at first).  Even stranger is all the options were listed as permanent so I don't know why any would be disabled due to clock manipulation anyway.   Unfortunately I didn't have time to actually try any of the options.    Power cycling the scope after setting the date resulted in the exact same error messages though (and a cleared clock).  I will have a closer look at the setup page (before setting the date)  when I get back from work.  It is frustrating.
My guess is though options are permanent it's borking due to date preceding the option start date.
May be worth trying a long screwdriver to give the battery a slight wiggle.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 28, 2017, 03:58:13 pm
There is a point in the manual
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/r/rtb_1/RTB_UserManual_en_02.pdf
... Chapter 7.8.1.

Quote
you received a key in written form, tap "Input option key manually". Enter the key.
If you received a key in digital form as a file, tap "Read option key from file".
Select path  /USB_FRONT  and the option key file

At least there is a possibility to get the key codes on request. You should be one email away from that.
... in case setting the the time won´t recall them.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 28, 2017, 03:59:47 pm
That would suck marginally less if the options are reenabled after fixing the battery/clock. Fingers crossed?
The scope ships with the activation codes in a piece of paper, so I guess they can be re-enabled after the battery is fixed
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: grouchobyte on April 28, 2017, 04:01:24 pm
I would somehow expect that a clock changing deactivates options. How else should they ensure that timed licenses work? They probably have some fancy crypto ongoing as well. That's not like shareware in the nineties.

Timed licences? Really? So when you buy a licence for a this scope it will expire?
So you are essentially renting the option for some number of years? That would be dumb in this case.
I would expect a perpetual or forever license that never expires and is flaged in non volotile memory as such negating the need to check againt the date and time for an option with a forever attribute

@grouchobyte
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: theatrus on April 28, 2017, 04:06:26 pm
That would suck marginally less if the options are reenabled after fixing the battery/clock. Fingers crossed?
The scope ships with the activation codes in a piece of paper, so I guess they can be re-enabled after the battery is fixed

Mine didn't. The only paper included was the China RoHS diagram booklet  :'(
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 28, 2017, 04:11:24 pm
I would somehow expect that a clock changing deactivates options. How else should they ensure that timed licenses work? They probably have some fancy crypto ongoing as well. That's not like shareware in the nineties.

Timed licences? Really? So when you buy a licence for a this scope it will expire?
So you are essentially renting the option for some number of years? That would be dumb in this case.
I would expect a perpetual or forever license that never expires and is flaged in non volotile memory as such negating the need to check againt the date and time for an option with a forever attribute

@grouchobyte
Who said timed licenses?  There is no need to start a conspiracy theory...

The license sheet says PERMANENT on each of the options, so I don't think they will expire.  You as a consumer have rights (at least in the US) and if you purchased them as PERMANENT, they are PERMANENT.  Reality check, please.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 28, 2017, 04:12:46 pm
That would suck marginally less if the options are reenabled after fixing the battery/clock. Fingers crossed?
The scope ships with the activation codes in a piece of paper, so I guess they can be re-enabled after the battery is fixed

Mine didn't. The only paper included was the China RoHS diagram booklet  :'(
The China RoHS is outside the small box.  Check inside the smaller box, it is a single piece of paper (US letter sized) with some stickers stapled on.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on April 28, 2017, 04:15:28 pm
Sure for example if you want to get an evaluation license of some kind. Also R&S has options costing more than a car (although not on this box). So why not rent them? And I would expect they use the same license key library or even hardware on all instruments.
@Mike: did you see any special piece of hardware which could hold the licenses?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Myrv on April 28, 2017, 04:40:01 pm

Ok, decided to swing by home during lunch to gather a bit more info:

This is the options screen after a cold restart (loss of clock, note upper right corner).

(http://i.imgur.com/dDNWFAQ.png)

Didn't have time to test much but the AWG appears to work (with the wrong date):


(http://i.imgur.com/VK5YXUd.png)


The inactive and de-activated options don't list anytihng either (still with wrong date):


(http://i.imgur.com/ZHwYMkt.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/XFN07CA.png)


And after changing the date nothing seems to have changed:


(http://i.imgur.com/VSZefeV.png)


So I have no idea what options have been disabled.  Looks like the error message may be in error?  Either way it still sucks.

I'll try Mike's suggestions later tonight (try and measure and/or wiggle battery).

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 28, 2017, 04:41:10 pm
@Mike: did you see any special piece of hardware which could hold the licenses?
No - don't see any need for this, just needs some nonvolatile memory.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 28, 2017, 04:43:21 pm
Who said timed licenses?  There is no need to start a conspiracy theory...
Any licensing system is going to be designed to allow for the option of evaluation licenses etc. for flexibility - you can't read any intent into that.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 28, 2017, 06:10:16 pm
Who said timed licenses?  There is no need to start a conspiracy theory...
Any licensing system is going to be designed to allow for the option of evaluation licenses etc. for flexibility - you can't read any intent into that.
Yes, but what is it worth if it can be bypassed by simply changing the clock? A better solution would be some kind of countdown based on days in use but it should be laid back in order not to cause problems for legitimate users who may be on a deadline to finish a project. Nothing is worse than your tools dying on you while working on a rush job.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on April 28, 2017, 06:23:58 pm
Hmm...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=311524;image)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 28, 2017, 06:33:08 pm
Who said timed licenses?  There is no need to start a conspiracy theory...
Any licensing system is going to be designed to allow for the option of evaluation licenses etc. for flexibility - you can't read any intent into that.
Sorry, I misunderstood grouchobyte's post...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Myrv on April 28, 2017, 06:37:23 pm
Hmm...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=311524;image)

Ya, that caught me off guard as well.  As far as I can tell that's the firmware date though.  The actual scope date is in the far upper right corner (note the 2000-01-01 in the unset state and 2017-04-28 in the set state).

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on April 28, 2017, 06:40:18 pm
Ya, that caught me off guard as well.  As far as I can tell that's the firmware date though.  The actual scope date is in the far upper right corner (note the 2000-01-01 in the unset state and 2017-04-28 in the set state).


Ah yes, I'm just stupid today  :palm:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: masto on April 28, 2017, 08:02:29 pm
Software is hard, especially when product requirements are ambiguous and conflicting. I can easily envision a scenario where both of these things are true in the implementation:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on April 28, 2017, 08:27:41 pm
Other R&S devices provide permanent options as well as temporary ones.
So the warning looks like a standard implementation.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 28, 2017, 09:34:46 pm
Mine came with a sheet with all the license keys. Looks like the attached image.

Joel

That would suck marginally less if the options are reenabled after fixing the battery/clock. Fingers crossed?
The scope ships with the activation codes in a piece of paper, so I guess they can be re-enabled after the battery is fixed

Mine didn't. The only paper included was the China RoHS diagram booklet  :'(
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 28, 2017, 09:42:57 pm
@Myrv - looks like your scope is all good and normal now. As long as the time and date sticks after leaving it unplugged for a while.

Your license pages look like mine.

Joel
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 28, 2017, 09:48:46 pm
MYRV,
I usually exhaust every option before returning an instrument. I'd stick a long plastic screwdriver through the case and just nudge the battery in case it's just a poor connection. May be out in left field but it doesn't hurt.

Sorry came in late, I see this has already been suggested!
Rob

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 29, 2017, 12:11:15 am
Looking at Myrv's screen shots, is there a 1.204 version of FW? I notice the date is a couple weeks newer than mine. Mines at 1.203
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 29, 2017, 12:14:13 am
Looking at Myrv's screen shots, is there a 1.204 version of FW? I notice the date is a couple weeks newer than mine. Mines at 1.203
Yes, R&S implemented a new feature called "RTC battery error and clock reset"  :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on April 29, 2017, 02:45:10 am
Day 44 passes and still not a word from TE. Bought before the "30 day" notice showed up on the website (with R&S marketing indicating dealers were stocked)...  got an "expected" ship date of today 24 days ago...   and .. its after work hours everywhere in the US now. 

Somewhat disappointing.  Had been in the shopping phases to get something on-hand for next month ... and thought stars had aligned. Then watching people buy after I did, and get in like 2 weeks or less... I can't decide if I should be frustrated with RS for poor stock management or the vendor  i bought from for not seeming to try hard, nor really update me on my order, especially since they've had my money in their hands for 6 weeks now.  :-//

such is life i guess.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Myrv on April 29, 2017, 02:56:48 am

So did some more poking around (literally, with a long probe).    The battery itself seems to be fine.  Measuring from the cell (+) to the chassis gives 3.1V.  Measuring from the battery clip to the chassis though gives nothing (0 V).   If I press down on one of the contact spring tabs on the battery clip I can get a voltage but as soon as I release pressure it loses contact again.  This is the same for both of the contact tabs.  With some effort I managed to move the battery around.  For a brief moment it made contact and survived two power cycles then failed again. I've managed to rotate the battery 180°, testing at multiple spots, but failed to make it connect again.  Strangely the battery seems to be in there pretty good.  I have no idea what's holding it in yet not making electrical contact.  Anyway looks like a bum battery clip or some kind of contamination. It is likely a 5 minute fix although I'll let them do that.

R&S has agreed to FedEx it back to their factory on their dime.  Thanks everyone for the suggestions.



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Myrv on April 29, 2017, 03:03:44 am
@Myrv - looks like your scope is all good and normal now. As long as the time and date sticks after leaving it unplugged for a while.

Unfortunately not.   Any power cycle (soft or hard) results in the RTC error message.  The license error is also displayed but after some further investigation it doesn't seem to actually mean anything (all the options seem to be enabled regardless of the error message).  Still needs to be fixed though.  Looks like it's going back next week.   
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on April 29, 2017, 03:53:15 am
Day 44 passes and still not a word from TE. Bought before the "30 day" notice showed up on the website (with R&S marketing indicating dealers were stocked)...  got an "expected" ship date of today 24 days ago...   and .. its after work hours everywhere in the US now. 

Somewhat disappointing.  Had been in the shopping phases to get something on-hand for next month ... and thought stars had aligned. Then watching people buy after I did, and get in like 2 weeks or less... I can't decide if I should be frustrated with RS for poor stock management or the vendor  i bought from for not seeming to try hard, nor really update me on my order, especially since they've had my money in their hands for 6 weeks now.  :-//

such is life i guess.

I know how you feel. I ordered from TE within the first couple days of the promotion and it finally arrived this week, so more than 40 days for me too. It was very frustrating seeing later orders get filled far sooner. Still, we're part of the lucky group who are getting the deal. It was never even an option for many who wanted it. And judging by all the angst this promotion seems to have caused we'll probably never see a deal like this again, just more of the typical free option here and there. Regarding TE, now that my order is done I'm happy with their service. When I contacted them midway through they followed up and it sounded like the delay was more on the R&S side, but I think they could've done more to move things along too.

edit: I mean Tequipment, not Test Equity
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 29, 2017, 01:37:40 pm

So did some more poking around (literally, with a long probe).    The battery itself seems to be fine.  Measuring from the cell (+) to the chassis gives 3.1V.  Measuring from the battery clip to the chassis though gives nothing (0 V).   If I press down on one of the contact spring tabs on the battery clip I can get a voltage but as soon as I release pressure it loses contact again.  This is the same for both of the contact tabs.  With some effort I managed to move the battery around.  For a brief moment it made contact and survived two power cycles then failed again. I've managed to rotate the battery 180°, testing at multiple spots, but failed to make it connect again.  Strangely the battery seems to be in there pretty good.  I have no idea what's holding it in yet not making electrical contact.  Anyway looks like a bum battery clip or some kind of contamination. It is likely a 5 minute fix although I'll let them do that.

R&S has agreed to FedEx it back to their factory on their dime.  Thanks everyone for the suggestions.
Can you check continuity from the battery (+) to the battery clip?  Maybe the battery clip is not soldered correctly to the PCB.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 29, 2017, 01:40:52 pm
Were you able to get to the battery to see if it was perhaps dead? Would be a shame to send it back if a new battery does the trick.
It is better to send faulty new gear back and not mess with it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on April 29, 2017, 04:36:38 pm
Buying a single item off ebay is probably not the preferred way to purchase test equipment for companies/professional users, so doesn't necessarily say much about what they (the main market) would pay.

Good point!  I know that R&S is targeting the educational market for the RTB.  A school buying 50 scopes would have to go through a distributor.  A lot of larger companies have "preferred vendor" lists that have to be followed too, no eBay purchases allowed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on April 29, 2017, 07:12:52 pm
Just wanted to look at the ebay offer posted yesterday and guess what: it's gone
http://www.ebay.com/itm/352040549226 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/352040549226)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 29, 2017, 07:24:47 pm
Joel,
When I got my scope I checked for new firmware. It showed the latest firmware as 1.203 as of about March 17.
Rob
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 29, 2017, 07:28:28 pm
Not surprised! It's still a good deal.

Look what this scope sold for.

Keysight Used DSOX3024T Oscilloscope, 4-channel, 200MHz(Agilent). No bus, 200M, no MSO and used:


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 29, 2017, 07:54:52 pm
I think these guys aren't making much on these scopes so they aren't eager to serve customers. The one I found best was ConRes. They seemed to be genuinely interested in working with me and make sure I was happy.
TE has the EEVblog promo but I've found on equipment I purchased other sellers sold equipment for about the same as TE with the promo. TE works best if you buy a new piece of equipment at list when everyone else is selling for list. This way the EEVblog promo works for the buyer.

Shop around before you buy.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 29, 2017, 09:02:05 pm
That's what I found 3/14/17 1.203. I was just curious because Myrv's scope shows 3/22 and 1.204. Wonder if there's a new version waiting to be released.

Joel,
When I got my scope I checked for new firmware. It showed the latest firmware as 1.203 as of about March 17.
Rob
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on April 29, 2017, 09:47:32 pm
Not surprised! It's still a good deal.

Look what this scope sold for.

Keysight Used DSOX3024T Oscilloscope, 4-channel, 200MHz(Agilent). No bus, 200M, no MSO and used:

Don't let ebay fool you.

The R&S actually sold for $3650.00 and the Keysight sold for $2281.00.

Ebay tends to hide accepted best offer prices.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 29, 2017, 09:57:19 pm
Here's the address for updates if anyone wants to check:

www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000 (http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 29, 2017, 09:59:38 pm
Not surprised! It's still a good deal.

Look what this scope sold for.

Keysight Used DSOX3024T Oscilloscope, 4-channel, 200MHz(Agilent). No bus, 200M, no MSO and used:



Don't let ebay fool you.

The R&S actually sold for $3650.00 and the Keysight sold for $2281.00.

Ebay tends to hide accepted best offer prices.

Yes, I saw the "best price accepted". What's key is how long it was up before it was gone
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on April 30, 2017, 12:19:16 am
Used Keysight instruments (sold by Keysight from Malaysia) do not include any probes.  I wanted to buy a DSOX2000 once and I asked if they could include used probes that are hanging around the factory and they replied NO, WE DON'T HAVE ANY PROBES.  If you want to have the instrument and the original probes (used), you need to spend another $600
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on April 30, 2017, 07:44:01 am
Don't let ebay fool you.
The R&S actually sold for $3650.00 and the Keysight sold for $2281.00.
Ebay tends to hide accepted best offer prices.
I am wondering about where this has been hidden? I only can see "best offer accepted" but not any value.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on April 30, 2017, 09:21:21 am
Used Keysight instruments (sold by Keysight from Malaysia) do not include any probes.  I wanted to buy a DSOX2000 once and I asked if they could include used probes that are hanging around the factory and they replied NO, WE DON'T HAVE ANY PROBES.  If you want to have the instrument and the original probes (used), you need to spend another $600

It's a major annoyance with their store, on used equipment they always say it does not include any accessories (unit only). But everyone I know that has ordered from them has received the full set of accessories, everything.. I'm not sure what to make of it.

I once messaged them about it and really stressed it, will I get any accessories or not? They seemed to suggest that they do it as a courtesy if you buy at the set price, but will not if you make a lower offer that they accept.

Might just be a lottery.



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on April 30, 2017, 09:26:53 am
Used Keysight instruments (sold by Keysight from Malaysia) do not include any probes.  I wanted to buy a DSOX2000 once and I asked if they could include used probes that are hanging around the factory and they replied NO, WE DON'T HAVE ANY PROBES.  If you want to have the instrument and the original probes (used), you need to spend another $600

That depends - sometimes accessories are incl - other times they are not. Read the advert :) -  I have been pleasantly surprised a few times. All premium certified devices are complete w/ all accessories.

My current probe looked at the pictures like it would not have the channel 2 adaptor included - and I used that get a better price - but when it arrived it looked brand new with everything in the box.

/k
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on April 30, 2017, 09:35:08 am
Here's the address for updates if anyone wants to check:

www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000 (http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000).

Nearly 7 weeks now since the first firmware release.  Equals what, about 7 months in brand-new test equipment dog years? :)   About time for some new firmware, I would think.  Mike's observations alone should equal one new firmware release.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 30, 2017, 09:52:02 am
Here's the address for updates if anyone wants to check:

www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000 (http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000).

Nearly 7 weeks now since the first firmware release.  Equals what, about 7 months in brand-new test equipment dog years? :)   About time for some new firmware, I would think.  Mike's observations alone should equal one new firmware release.
With a new product like this, in the absence of serious issues, I think it make  sense for them to wait a while to gather feedback from users and fix everything in one go, rather than doing it piecemeal.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 30, 2017, 11:44:27 am
Pinkus -
By not specifically stating it in the listing the option is left to them. Tomorrow someone could get a bare bones scope and have no recourse, personally I don't want to take that chance. $3650 or $4k still seems like a better deal to me for a new scope with all the option listed and included in the purchase.
I don't know how many more of these will show up but I'll bet they don't last long if they do.

With that said R&S has opened up a whole new vista here. If I make scopes and I see how this promo went down I'd seriously try to come close to it. OK, so maybe no MSO or gen. but a 300M scope with all the bus features included for say $2.5k? Not that far fetched especially with the newer faster chips coming. Tek and Keysight, are you listening?
Rob
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Harb on April 30, 2017, 12:06:24 pm
So whats the current price for a fully optioned 2004 via a dealer ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on April 30, 2017, 12:10:23 pm
~$7920.00 - 4 channel - RTB2K com4

(corrected)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 30, 2017, 01:17:17 pm
According to Tequipment, RTB2K-304M 300MHz MSO $4760 plus RTB-PK1 app bundle $1260 = $6020
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on April 30, 2017, 03:02:19 pm
Here's the address for updates if anyone wants to check:

www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000 (http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000).

Nearly 7 weeks now since the first firmware release.  Equals what, about 7 months in brand-new test equipment dog years? :)   About time for some new firmware, I would think.  Mike's observations alone should equal one new firmware release.
With a new product like this, in the absence of serious issues, I think it make  sense for them to wait a while to gather feedback from users and fix everything in one go, rather than doing it piecemeal.

So I don't look like a fortune teller I should add that I asked Rich @ R&S a few week ago when a new release would be out.  He seemed to think it would be the first part of May, unless plans change. ;D   I agree, good to collect several fixes and especially **test** the changes!  Nothing more frustrating than bugs in the fixes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on April 30, 2017, 05:49:47 pm
So I finally picked mine up and had a quick test in the hotel room yesterday.

Very early impressions are that the screen is a major positive, about time someone bothered to put something of reasonable size and resolution in a sub 10k instrument! I'm sure this will also help with taking advantage of the 10 bit ADC, which is also very welcome (my first scope was 10bit, made the 8 bit rigol feel limiting sometimes when zooming into an already captured waveform).

Negatives are lag in the menus (especially scrolling) and those darn detents in the knobs. Touch screen thankfully makes up for the detents somewhat (moving traces is responsive enough to substitute for the knobs in many situations), but I'll probably buy a spare encoder or two to experiment on disabling the detents - they're unfortunately not available without them :(

One strange thing I noticed was that the waveform rate seems to slow for a brief time after changing any setting, before going back to normal - anyone else seen this?

I also grabbed the front cover before getting the scope - it's rather expensive for a piece of vacuum formed plastic, but fits securely, feels strong and I think it will protect the front well. Downside is that it's a bit of a fiddle to put on, but I think it was a sensible purchase given I'll be hauling it around in hand luggage. I'm most afraid of damage to the rear grill now, with the cover on it's now by far the weakest point.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 30, 2017, 06:04:05 pm

One strange thing I noticed was that the waveform rate seems to slow for a brief time after changing any setting, before going back to normal - anyone else seen this?

Yes - only looked at it briefly, but the update rate is rather inconsistent and jittery. Also jumps significantly as you cross particular timebase settings for no obvious reasons.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 01, 2017, 12:44:08 am
Sorry I flipped 2 digits:

Tequip: $7,920
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 01, 2017, 12:55:38 am
HYdron,
I've taken the detents out of encoders but I completely forgot about these until I read your post. I suggest you do some real work for awhile and see if they are still bothersome. I find that ergonomics are important but once you learn the idiosyncrasies of an instrument they don't way especially heavily. Also I'll be using a mouse with mine.

But I guess different things bother different people, I hate noise. I had an Agilent meter on the bench and the fan whine drove me to the point of selling it. The R&S is wonderfully quiet! To each his own.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on May 01, 2017, 01:54:11 am
I agree about noise - I buy PC parts based on how loud they are and swapped the fan out on my previous scope (DS1054Z) due to it being too loud. The R&S is fantastic regarding noise - the aircon in the room drowns out the noise of the scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Harb on May 01, 2017, 03:22:15 am
~$7920.00 - 4 channel - RTB2K com4

(corrected)

Thanks, I am def going to go down this path, but I am just waiting a bit longer to make sure they are a good thing after everyone that has one has well and truely put them to work and are happy.......
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 01, 2017, 11:35:48 am
~$7920.00 - 4 channel - RTB2K com4
(corrected)

Thanks, I am def going to go down this path, but I am just waiting a bit longer to make sure they are a good thing after everyone that has one has well and truely put them to work and are happy.......
For this kind of money there are so many alternatives (used and new) out there that it doesn't make sense to spend this much money on a scope like this. I can't see R&S selling this scope for around $8k. It will do better in the $3k to $4k region especially since it is a Hameg style scope and the increasingly stronger competition from Asia.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: madires on May 01, 2017, 12:01:39 pm
I agree, the price doesn't seem to be reasonable. Take one of the Hameg DSOs for example. The 4-ch 350MHz bundle with all options was about EUR 5.5 or 6k, IIRC.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 01, 2017, 12:41:39 pm
Harb,

Mike did a couple of excellent utubes on this scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 01, 2017, 12:49:10 pm
I'm not sure I agree completely. I expect a lot of institutions might want this scope. Also names like R&S, Agilent and Tektronix have better resale. You have to look at the whole picture and look at the options too. What's Keysight getting for a maxed out MSO at this freq? $10K? $12K?

Sure things will only get cheaper, but again, the hero is the chip manufacturer, they make all us engineers look good!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on May 01, 2017, 01:05:19 pm
I had the same too much $$$ impression. At the intro price, it was a no brainier, great deal. The 8K loaded price, not so much. I'm thinking more like ntcnico, $3k - $4K is where this scope lives. I made a comment way back that I hope we don't end up orphaned because these scopes don't sell.

Time and sales will tell.

Joel
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 01, 2017, 01:21:51 pm
I'm not sure I agree completely. I expect a lot of institutions might want this scope. Also names like R&S, Agilent and Tektronix have better resale.
Resale value is vastly overrated because you'll need a really trustworthy resale channel (with warranty and support) to fetch a reasonable price. In general test equipment depreciates even faster than a car. Especially if you want to sell as a private person it will be hard. Look at what kind of (low) amounts the last year's scope month Keysight scopes went for. And these where brand new! Also I don't think you can compare between today's plastic lunchboxes and >20 year old boatanchors which still fetch foolish amounts of money. It is a bit like classic cars; they don't make stuff like that anymore.

Looking at competing products there are the Hamegs, Lecroy's Wavesurfer 3000 and Keysight's 3000 series. If you look at Asia then you can add a few more.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on May 01, 2017, 01:23:16 pm
I'd agree the price for the fully-loaded unit is pretty unrealistic  & would be highly surprised if we don't see some offers 7 bundles.
Will also be interesting to see some feedback from people who have managed to negotiate deals with distributors. Clearly there is a lot of potential for R&S to offer deals on options.
Even at the list price, there may be some customers who need the more unique features - fast ethernet/USB MTP, 10 bit ADC etc. and if they don't need the full bandwidth & options the pricing is probably pretty reasonable.

R&S have acknowledged that they are fairly new in the scope market and are in it for the long haul, so there will be some market testing going on - better to start high & reduce til sales pick up than do a Rigol and launch a product too cheap, which nobody can actually buy for months.
 
As regards competition in the "big brand" area, Tek are all but dead, and R&S could easily be the main competitor to Keysight long-term if they play it right. 

..and of course there is the hack potential....
 
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 01, 2017, 01:41:56 pm
I'm not sure I agree completely. I expect a lot of institutions might want this scope. Also names like R&S, Agilent and Tektronix have better resale.
Resale value is vastly overrated because you'll need a really trustworthy resale channel (with warranty and support) to fetch a reasonable price. In general test equipment depreciates even faster than a car. Especially if you want to sell as a private person it will be hard. Look at what kind of (low) amounts the last year's scope month Keysight scopes went for. And these where brand new! Also I don't think you can compare between today's plastic lunchboxes and >20 year old boatanchors which still fetch foolish amounts of money. It is a bit like classic cars; they don't make stuff like that anymore.

What would you rather have a 100 tube CRT 17" TV or an LED big screen?

As for cars, I had a guy I knew call me up asking me to convert his pristine 49 Ford coupe to an EV. I told him that his 49 Ford wasn't safe enough to drive. No seat belts, steering wheels that drive through your chest in front end collision, no airbags, abs or head rests to stop whiplash. No rust protection, no independent suspension - well you get the idea. I'm glad they don't make them like that anymore, my next car will be an EV, I have a Chevy Bolt on order, if I don't like it I'll wait for the Tesla 3 or one of the other EVs that will be out in the next couple of years. It's called technology and it dictates the future. CRT analog scopes - you can have them along with any old Ford coupes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 01, 2017, 01:45:19 pm
Well you claimed outdated technology has a great resale value because of the brand name  :palm:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 01, 2017, 02:09:31 pm
I'd agree the price for the fully-loaded unit is pretty unrealistic  & would be highly surprised if we don't see some offers 7 bundles.
Will also be interesting to see some feedback from people who have managed to negotiate deals with distributors. Clearly there is a lot of potential for R&S to offer deals on options.
Even at the list price, there may be some customers who need the more unique features - fast ethernet/USB MTP, 10 bit ADC etc. and if they don't need the full bandwidth & options the pricing is probably pretty reasonable.

R&S have acknowledged that they are fairly new in the scope market and are in it for the long haul, so there will be some market testing going on - better to start high & reduce til sales pick up than do a Rigol and launch a product too cheap, which nobody can actually buy for months.
 
As regards competition in the "big brand" area, Tek are all but dead, and R&S could easily be the main competitor to Keysight long-term if they play it right. 

..and of course there is the hack potential....

I, for one, don't want to be opening cases to save a buck.  This is why Eagle never appealed to me, guys writing unsupported ULPs that should be standard options. I'm not in the EDA software business or the test equipment modification business.
The RTB2k is great in my view, sure we got them cheap but if I bought it afterthe promo I would have left off the AWG and maybe the MSO but it does decoding in spades and that's the bulk of my work - retired as much as I might be!

Tektronix is still a good company with a good product. Out of hobby range but they still have an audience. I've used their scopes since the 60's and they have always been good, maybe not the best bang for buck but solid performers.
 
Dave's reviews seem more hobby sided to me, things bother him that I never think twice about like noise when you tap the screen or where a knob is placed. At four in the morning when you have a major piece of commercial machinery down that you're scratching your head trouble shooting you're not tapping screens to see the noise and you better know what all the knobs do!

Nope, this scope is the cat's meow to me even at twice the promo price. Two thumbs up R&S, nice job!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 01, 2017, 02:12:20 pm
"Well you claimed outdated technology has a great resale value because of the brand name."

No, I claimed used name brand equipment has better resale. I said nothing about outdated.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on May 01, 2017, 03:49:05 pm
I don't know about what distributors could offer, but I know that talking to R&S UK direct they were willing to try and get me a good price (specifically as a keen hobbyist, not sure if they could do better or worse for commercial sales given the need to keep distributors happy). I was offered a promo unit at significantly below any non-US price I've seen mentioned here, or alternatively to let them know what my priorities were regarding options so that they could price up a base unit plus those. Probably would have gone for their offer if I hadn't snagged one of the last US units.

On another topic, I'm packing mine up for the trip back to the UK - taking the main unit plus power cord in carry on baggage, but am wondering about how I should pack the probes etc for the TSA. Would prefer to have these in hand luggage too, but they could go in checked if it's likely for them to get unhappy about them. Anyone with comments/experience on flying with scope accessories?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on May 01, 2017, 03:52:48 pm
On another topic, I'm packing mine up for the trip back to the UK - taking the main unit plus power cord in carry on baggage, but am wondering about how I should pack the probes etc for the TSA. Would prefer to have these in hand luggage too, but they could go in checked if it's likely for them to get unhappy about them. Anyone with comments/experience on flying with scope accessories?
Why are you bothering to take a  (presumably) US power cord ?

Probes have sharp points and a TSA screener probably wouldn't have seen one before. Probably not an issue but I'd put them in checked luggage.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 01, 2017, 04:20:24 pm
I don't know about what distributors could offer, but I know that talking to R&S UK direct they were willing to try and get me a good price (specifically as a keen hobbyist, not sure if they could do better or worse for commercial sales given the need to keep distributors happy). I was offered a promo unit at significantly below any non-US price I've seen mentioned here, or alternatively to let them know what my priorities were regarding options so that they could price up a base unit plus those. Probably would have gone for their offer if I hadn't snagged one of the last US units.

On another topic, I'm packing mine up for the trip back to the UK - taking the main unit plus power cord in carry on baggage, but am wondering about how I should pack the probes etc for the TSA. Would prefer to have these in hand luggage too, but they could go in checked if it's likely for them to get unhappy about them. Anyone with comments/experience on flying with scope accessories?

They only damage to probes I see is from being pushed on from the sides which could possibly break them. I'd put them together and make sure nothing heavy or sharp is above or below them. You could even put them all together sandwiched between two books rubber banded together. Just a suggestion. They're pretty rugged, I ran over one with a desk chair wheel once, still worked fine but the plastic under the removable head did crack.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 01, 2017, 04:23:17 pm
On another topic, I'm packing mine up for the trip back to the UK - taking the main unit plus power cord in carry on baggage, but am wondering about how I should pack the probes etc for the TSA. Would prefer to have these in hand luggage too, but they could go in checked if it's likely for them to get unhappy about them. Anyone with comments/experience on flying with scope accessories?
Why are you bothering to take a  (presumably) US power cord ?

Probes have sharp points and a TSA screener probably wouldn't have seen one before. Probably not an issue but I'd put them in checked luggage.
AFAIK they are more obsessive about objects which can be perceived as dangerous and thus can be used to instill fear. In other words: anything that people recognise as being harmful like scissors, knifes or weapons in general.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Bud on May 01, 2017, 04:26:40 pm
Yes they are WIRES. Everyone knows what wires are used for  :blah:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on May 01, 2017, 06:58:23 pm
US power cord is in case TSA wants to see it working (as suggested by another poster). They were insisting for a while that all phones etc must power on and work before they'd let them on a plane.

The idea of probes in carry on was that they cost a lot to replace if luggage is lost, and my bag is a soft one so am afraid of damage by luggage handler. Could stick the tips in checked, or the whole lot (I guess TSA might open it, but I don't mind as long as everything goes back in the bag when they're done).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on May 02, 2017, 10:47:42 am
Yes they are WIRES. Everyone knows what wires are used for  :blah:

In case of the probe i would put them to the luggage. A probe might be a similar weapon like a screwdriver.
Shoelaces will work as well as a power cord :blah: . But i´ve never had complains about having a power chord in my hand luggage when carriing a laptop.

But thats was before the US started to ban laptops in hand luggage.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ElektronikLabor on May 02, 2017, 11:23:23 am
I have uploaded a review.
Unfortunately it's in German, sorry. I can not expect from someone to listen to my Englisch pronunciation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPFBZYAzuhY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPFBZYAzuhY)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOyek6MC8G4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOyek6MC8G4)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on May 02, 2017, 01:56:49 pm
You can have 2.5GSa/s  on channel 2 if you switch off channel 1.
The scope keeps the trigger sources switched on in hardware. So if you try to switch off channel 1  its just made invisible.
You can see the channel 1 info at the bottom is still displayed.

You can use this to keep your screen clean and just have those information you need. The other channel is not lost in this case.
--------------------------------
BTW you can turn off digital channels as well using the menu at the bottom ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ElektronikLabor on May 02, 2017, 03:39:37 pm
You can have 2.5GSa/s  on channel 2 if you switch off channel 1.
The scope keeps the trigger sources switched on in hardware. So if you try to switch off channel 1  its just made invisible.
You're right, Thanks! It 's absolutely makes sense
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on May 02, 2017, 05:01:49 pm
Hm on mine I can deactivate the demo capability. Might it be that yours is in some kind of demo mode?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ElektronikLabor on May 02, 2017, 06:48:00 pm
Hm on mine I can deactivate the demo capability. Might it be that yours is in some kind of demo mode?
It is Possible; the scope has a "Demo Device" sticker and one of the installed options is called K0 (Demo) that is only temporary  :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on May 03, 2017, 12:54:03 am
No message/update from TEquipment, but Fedex just notified me they have a 16lbs package on hand for me from "Ingram Micro", which is a 100% match for TEquipment shipping me stuff in the past.

It'll still take a week to get to the left coast, but that's my punishment for not being charged CA sales tax...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on May 03, 2017, 01:01:50 am
No message/update from TEquipment, but Fedex just notified me they have a 16lbs package on hand for me from "Ingram Micro", which is a 100% match for TEquipment shipping me stuff in the past.


That is interesting.  Back in the first internet bubble, 18 years ago, Ingram did drop shipping for a lot of internet computer retailers.  The retailers didn't have to have any actual inventory, they just forwarded the orders to Ingram who in turn did the shipping for a fee.    Sounds like they are still around.  Back then they had a huge operation in Irvine (California).  I had to go down there a couple of times and meet with them.

EDIT: I just did a Google search out of curiosity.  "Ingram Micro is a wholesaler of IT products and services. Its headquarter remains in Irvine, California despite the fact the company has been acquired by the Chinese group HNA in 2016."  So that is what happened.  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: stuartk on May 03, 2017, 02:53:28 am
I just received my scope from Test Force in Ottawa and it works well.

Has anyone got a wireless mouse to work and if so which brand and model?

It works fine with a wired mouse, but I'd like to go wireless.

Thanks,

Stuart
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on May 03, 2017, 04:04:29 am
No message/update from TEquipment, but Fedex just notified me they have a 16lbs package on hand for me from "Ingram Micro", which is a 100% match for TEquipment shipping me stuff in the past.


Did it show as "shipped" on Tequipment's website after the estimated ship date?

Just wondering since their website says mine is due to ship tomorrow.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on May 03, 2017, 05:44:23 am
No message/update from TEquipment, but Fedex just notified me they have a 16lbs package on hand for me from "Ingram Micro", which is a 100% match for TEquipment shipping me stuff in the past.


Did it show as "shipped" on Tequipment's website after the estimated ship date?

Just wondering since their website says mine is due to ship tomorrow.

Nope, no change on the order status page. Still says "on order" and estimated ship date 04 May.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rogersstuart on May 03, 2017, 06:22:39 am
I just received my scope from Test Force in Ottawa and it works well.

Has anyone got a wireless mouse to work and if so which brand and model?

It works fine with a wired mouse, but I'd like to go wireless.

Thanks,

Stuart

I've tested it with a Logitech MX Master, M215, and K400r (all with different receivers) and none of them worked so I'm thinking that wireless Logitech HID devices are incompatible with this scope.

I've had an RTB2004 demo unit for about 2 weeks now. I really love the screen (for touch and its resolution), serial decoding worked great for me, and the FFT is pretty nice too but I've came across quite a few problems with the scope that make me not want to keep it. Aliasing is really bad on this scope. The min and max values in the dialogs are incorrect sometimes and after pressing enter and getting an error the correct values magically appear. I've had the tick labels for the FFT completely disappear requiring a power cycle to get them back. I've had it abruptly clear the screen while stopped (no, I didn't press the clear screen button or disable the channel). The AWG doesn't have a sync output. There's no PC software for configuring the AWG or pattern generator. Then to top it all off I just soft power cycled it and I got the same RTC error mentioned earlier in this thread. For such a nice scope its a shame that there are so many tiny flaws. Hopefully these problems will be fixed in future firmware updates.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ElektronikLabor on May 03, 2017, 06:31:06 am
I've had the tick labels for the FFT completely disappear requiring a power cycle to get them back
Yesterday I had the same problem, too.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on May 03, 2017, 06:39:22 am
The AWG doesn't have a sync output.
Not sure any of the other scope AWGs do either, but what they do usually allow is to trigger from AWG sync or waveform  - I reported this to  them a while ago and they said they will look at it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on May 03, 2017, 08:10:50 am
I have uploaded a review.
...

Touching the measurement areas leads directliy to the menu with the preselected measurement place.
Touching cursor lets you change the source directly. Time and voltage positions can be put in numerically as well.
-----------------------------------------------
FFT supports cursor measurements. But no "Next Peak" functionality  :--
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 3db on May 03, 2017, 08:48:37 am
I just received my scope from Test Force in Ottawa and it works well.

Has anyone got a wireless mouse to work and if so which brand and model?

It works fine with a wired mouse, but I'd like to go wireless.

Thanks,

Stuart

I have a Logitech K400+ keyboard with integrated trackpad which seems to work with any  computer/device I've tried it on.
Might be worth a try. 

3DB.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on May 03, 2017, 10:49:51 am
... So TSA didn't care at all about me taking the scope in hand luggage, they asked what it was but then ran it straight through. Thanks to those who let me know their experience.

I'll also try a few mice/KB options once I get home - I have an older non unifying receiver Logitech mouse that I can try as well as some new stuff.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on May 03, 2017, 10:58:42 am
Just got my replacement unit - first powerup gave this message. It was pretty cold - maybe 15 deg.
Seems OK once warmed up a couple of mins.

BTW tried a USB keyboard and this was recognised and can be used for numeric inputs etc.
I don't have a wireless mouse to try. My guess is the Logitech ones with issues do odd USB stuff to talk to their driver - a no-name generic one may be a better bet.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on May 03, 2017, 03:02:29 pm
No message/update from TEquipment, but Fedex just notified me they have a 16lbs package on hand for me from "Ingram Micro", which is a 100% match for TEquipment shipping me stuff in the past.


Did it show as "shipped" on Tequipment's website after the estimated ship date?

Just wondering since their website says mine is due to ship tomorrow.

Nope, no change on the order status page. Still says "on order" and estimated ship date 04 May.

Fixed. Got the shipping notice from Tequipment.net this morning.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on May 03, 2017, 03:12:55 pm
Did you have a bad scope too? I thought Myrv had the only bad one.

Just got my replacement unit - first powerup gave this message. It was pretty cold - maybe 15 deg.
Seems OK once warmed up a couple of mins.

BTW tried a USB keyboard and this was recognised and can be used for numeric inputs etc.
I don't have a wireless mouse to try. My guess is the Logitech ones with issues do odd USB stuff to talk to their driver - a no-name generic one may be a better bet.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: theatrus on May 03, 2017, 03:24:14 pm
Did you have a bad scope too? I thought Myrv had the only bad one.

Just got my replacement unit - first powerup gave this message. It was pretty cold - maybe 15 deg.
Seems OK once warmed up a couple of mins.

BTW tried a USB keyboard and this was recognised and can be used for numeric inputs etc.
I don't have a wireless mouse to try. My guess is the Logitech ones with issues do odd USB stuff to talk to their driver - a no-name generic one may be a better bet.

Also ended up with a bad one. Newark is having a hard time figuring out how to deal with RMAs.  |O
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JanJansen on May 03, 2017, 03:26:01 pm
Thats why you americans have this free unlocked software deal, in trade for testing for them.
Only in america for fast return sends ?
i bet
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 03, 2017, 05:21:17 pm
Thats why you americans have this free unlocked software deal, in trade for testing for them.
Indeed. It seems there are many problems in this oscilloscope so this will be a real test for R&S to see if they can get the firmware right quickly. Some of the problems like slow response to menu selection changes seem problematic to fix quickly though because they are usually intertwined with how the tasks are organised within the firmware.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on May 03, 2017, 09:06:52 pm
No message/update from TEquipment, but Fedex just notified me they have a 16lbs package on hand for me from "Ingram Micro", which is a 100% match for TEquipment shipping me stuff in the past.


Did it show as "shipped" on Tequipment's website after the estimated ship date?

Just wondering since their website says mine is due to ship tomorrow.

Nope, no change on the order status page. Still says "on order" and estimated ship date 04 May.

Fixed. Got the shipping notice from Tequipment.net this morning.

I ordered mine on April 2nd. At the time it was listed as "In Stock" but I was then given a ship date of May 1st. A few days ago that was changed to May 3rd. Then sometime today it was changed again to May 10th. >:(

I spoke with Tequipment who says they've had an issue with R&S changing their ship date for several of these scopes. Apparently R&S today shipped them to Tequipment's "hub" (?Ingram Micro?) and they are awaiting tracking info from R&S.

I wonder if there's been some last minute tweeks by R$S addressing some issues on the early releases?
It will be interesting to see if there's a new firmware release soon.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kwass on May 04, 2017, 02:04:27 am
Is there a recommended thread on this forum or some other website to report bugs found on this scope?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on May 04, 2017, 02:12:39 am
Is there a recommended thread on this forum or some other website to report bugs found on this scope?
Not spotted one yet.
Katie, you know what to do.  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 04, 2017, 02:14:14 am
Is there a recommended thread on this forum or some other website to report bugs found on this scope?
Hi Katie - feel free to post your defects or enhancement requests in my introduction thread and I'll submit them to our tracker.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-oscilloscopes-questionscomments-let-me-know (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-oscilloscopes-questionscomments-let-me-know)!/

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kwass on May 04, 2017, 12:50:54 pm
Not spotted one yet.
Katie, you know what to do.  ;)

Funny! But Rich kindly recommended his own thread for this purpose.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: edavid on May 04, 2017, 02:31:54 pm
Is there a recommended thread on this forum or some other website to report bugs found on this scope?
Hi Katie - feel free to post your defects or enhancement requests in my introduction thread and I'll submit them to our tracker.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-oscilloscopes-questionscomments-let-me-know (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-oscilloscopes-questionscomments-let-me-know)!/

I'd like to report a defect in your link.  It should be: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-oscilloscopes-questionscomments-let-me-know!/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-oscilloscopes-questionscomments-let-me-know!/)

In general, it's a bad idea to put punctuation in thread subjects.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on May 04, 2017, 06:05:08 pm
Just a heads up for those who want a few more probe accessories than the limited selection supplied with the RT-ZP03 these scopes come with.

The LeCroy "PKIT3-5MM-101" is completely compatible with the R&S probe (I assume they use the same OEM), and is available very cheaply from RS UK:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/ (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/) (5.20 GBP + VAT and only 6 left when I got mine)
(https://media.digikey.com/Photos/Teledyne%20LeCroy%20Photos/PKIT3-5MM-101.jpg)
(note that the spring hook grabber thing is a slightly different design but is still compatible)

This is a nice little kit, especially for spares of the most vulnerable parts, the BNC adaptor, low inductance ground spring and the RED (not pink) channel marker cable clip!

Seems that the US (i.e. non-RS) price is much higher, but I think they got the better end of the deal with $2k scopes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: theatrus on May 04, 2017, 06:24:46 pm
Just a heads up for those who want a few more probe accessories than the limited selection supplied with the RT-ZP03 these scopes come with.

The LeCroy "PKIT3-5MM-101" is completely compatible with the R&S probe (I assume they use the same OEM), and is available very cheaply from RS UK:
(note that the spring hook grabber thing is a slightly different design but is still compatible)

This is a nice little kit, especially for spares of the most vulnerable parts, the BNC adaptor, low inductance ground spring and the RED (not pink) channel marker cable clip!

Seems that the US (i.e. non-RS) price is much higher, but I think they got the better end of the deal with $2k scopes.

I didn't realize the GBP and USD deviated so much, since that part number runs $45 on the US distributors  :scared:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 05, 2017, 11:40:25 am

More scopes on eBay if anyone is intertested:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-Oscilloscope-All-Opt-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/152536506153?hash=item2383e25f29:g:NawAAOSwX61ZC0bH (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-Oscilloscope-All-Opt-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/152536506153?hash=item2383e25f29:g:NawAAOSwX61ZC0bH)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/232323512044?hash=item36178f76ec:g:14UAAOSw~y9ZCjUM (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/232323512044?hash=item36178f76ec:g:14UAAOSw~y9ZCjUM)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on May 05, 2017, 08:00:02 pm

More scopes on eBay if anyone is intertested:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-Oscilloscope-All-Opt-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/152536506153?hash=item2383e25f29:g:NawAAOSwX61ZC0bH (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-Oscilloscope-All-Opt-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/152536506153?hash=item2383e25f29:g:NawAAOSwX61ZC0bH)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/232323512044?hash=item36178f76ec:g:14UAAOSw~y9ZCjUM (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/232323512044?hash=item36178f76ec:g:14UAAOSw~y9ZCjUM)
First one already sold...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 05, 2017, 09:07:33 pm

More scopes on eBay if anyone is intertested:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-Oscilloscope-All-Opt-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/152536506153?hash=item2383e25f29:g:NawAAOSwX61ZC0bH (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-Oscilloscope-All-Opt-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/152536506153?hash=item2383e25f29:g:NawAAOSwX61ZC0bH)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/232323512044?hash=item36178f76ec:g:14UAAOSw~y9ZCjUM (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-MSO-Full-Options-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/232323512044?hash=item36178f76ec:g:14UAAOSw~y9ZCjUM)
First one already sold...

Wow, that was quick!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on May 05, 2017, 10:52:44 pm
I've just had a play with the screen protector that Mike linked too - I can confirm that it works well, especially if you make sure everything is extremely clean (especially dust free) and put it on behind the front cover (looks like it is original). That said, I've taken it off again, as I like the crispness of the shiny screen and don't have it in an position where reflections are an issue.

While I had the cover off I also had a look at the encoders, and purchased a similar ALPS EC11J series part to investigate removing the detents, which are still one of the most irritating things about this unit. Unfortunately a stock part is not available without detents, and it also seems that R&S is using a semi-custom model (ALPS don't show the combination of shaft length and style on their product list). Having pulled the similar encoder apart, I'm pretty confident that the detents can be removed from the original R&S parts without destroying them, with the following process:

- buy a spare encoder, remove the outer metal "shell" carefully by un-bending the tabs underneath. Disassemble this one to get an idea of what's inside before working on the real thing (have a go at removing the detent spring too)

- carefully cut the shell of the R&S part on the pcb, as shown in the picture, to separate it into 6 individually soldered down parts (side cutters, possibly a small file could be useful here)

- unsolder each of these parts individually, paying special care to the 2 wide pieces (these have the tabs bent under the black plastic bit)

- pull the top assembly off (black plastic part, switch and contacts remain on the PCB), and disassemble the encoder to remove the detent spring (this is the only part which needs to be forcibly removed, everything else is just keyed to fit together and is held by the metal shell)

- re-assemble, and solder the "shell" from the spare encoder (with the bottom tabs removed) onto the PCB to replace the original one which was cut for easy removal. The removed tabs shouldn't matter as the black part that they retained is still held down by solder.

I'm not going to do this mod to my scope in the near term as I think it'd void the warranty pretty thoroughly, but I really don't like the detents so once I'm confident that the unit is working well I'll be seriously considering it. It's a real shame that R&S didn't ask ALPS to do a small customisation to the encoder to make all this unnecessary, but in their defence, the well-executed trace movements on the touch screen do make up for a lot of the annoyance.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 05, 2017, 11:11:23 pm
I've just had a play with the screen protector that Mike linked too - I can confirm that it works well, especially if you make sure everything is extremely clean (especially dust free) and put it on behind the front cover (looks like it is original). That said, I've taken it off again, as I like the crispness of the shiny screen and don't have it in an position where reflections are an issue.

While I had the cover off I also had a look at the encoders, and purchased a similar ALPS EC11J series part to investigate removing the detents, which are still one of the most irritating things about this unit. Unfortunately a stock part is not available without detents, and it also seems that R&S is using a semi-custom model (ALPS don't show the combination of shaft length and style on their product list). Having pulled the similar encoder apart, I'm pretty confident that the detents can be removed from the original R&S parts without destroying them, with the following process:

- buy a spare encoder, remove the outer metal "shell" carefully by un-bending the tabs underneath. Disassemble this one to get an idea of what's inside before working on the real thing (have a go at removing the detent spring too)

- carefully cut the shell of the R&S part on the pcb, as shown in the picture, to separate it into 6 individually soldered down parts (side cutters, possibly a small file could be useful here)

- unsolder each of these parts individually, paying special care to the 2 wide pieces (these have the tabs bent under the black plastic bit)

- pull the top assembly off (black plastic part, switch and contacts remain on the PCB), and disassemble the encoder to remove the detent spring (this is the only part which needs to be forcibly removed, everything else is just keyed to fit together and is held by the metal shell)

- re-assemble, and solder the "shell" from the spare encoder (with the bottom tabs removed) onto the PCB to replace the original one which was cut for easy removal. The removed tabs shouldn't matter as the black part that they retained is still held down by solder.

I'm not going to do this mod to my scope in the near term as I think it'd void the warranty pretty thoroughly, but I really don't like the detents so once I'm confident that the unit is working well I'll be seriously considering it. It's a real shame that R&S didn't ask ALPS to do a small customisation to the encoder to make all this unnecessary, but in their defence, the well-executed trace movements on the touch screen do make up for a lot of the annoyance.

Hydron,
Are you sure that if you remove the detents the scope will work properly? I set up uC algorithms to run from encoders and there are several ways to divide encoder steps. R&S may have used detents to coordinate with changes so as to get positive results per each detent. What happens if you stop in the middle between detents? Flicker? I've seen and had it happen. Sometimes you can stop in between detents and you'll get a delay because the uC is expecting a quadrature change.
Rob
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on May 05, 2017, 11:36:40 pm
The other issue is how smoothly a non-detented encoder turns. If it's too stiff, it's little better than the detented version. A detented encoder doesn't need to have smooth motion.

Compare to the ones on the Keysight, which turn extremely freely, so can be operated with a very light touch ( though the knobs could possibly do with being a little bigger).

The other day I was alternating between the KS and R&S for various reasons and was really starting to hate the detents, in particular on the horizontal position knob.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on May 05, 2017, 11:56:52 pm
Both very good points, and are the reason why I got another encoder from the same family to play with before seriously considering messing with the R&S ones.

- The test encoder I pulled the detents from is now very nice, smooth and free to turn (can feel tiny variations during rotation, but WAY better than before the mod)

- I also worried about what Rob mentioned - will it go crazy if it stops just between sectors or bounces more than is expected by the controller.
Unfortunately this is harder to test - at the minimum it would require getting the existing encoder in a position where it's not pulling the sense lines to VCC/GND (depending on how it's wired up), and then attaching the test encoder in parallel.
If this isn't possible, then the upper half of the (detent-free) test encoder should be able to be substituted temporarily for the R&S part after removing the retaining shell, allowing for operation to be checked before modifying the un-obtainium R&S part.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on May 06, 2017, 12:05:13 am
There ought to be a position on the original encoder where both contacts are open ( maybe even the detented position), so holding it that position would allow another to be connected across it to test. 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on May 06, 2017, 12:13:27 am
There ought to be a position on the original encoder where both contacts are open ( maybe even the detented position), so holding it that position would allow another to be connected across it to test.
Yeah that's what I was hoping/planning. Annoyingly I only realised it as I was typing my previously reply, not while the case was off the scope.
ALPS gives some info about the detent positions in the datasheet (snippet attached) - looks like one signal is guaranteed to be stable at the detent stop, but the other is not.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: piranha32 on May 06, 2017, 01:07:30 am
I've got my scope today, and I haven't had much time to play with it, but I'd like to share my first impressions:
1. Detents: much more stiff than I expected, but after an hour of so playing with the scope I don't hate them yet. Maybe they're not as annoying as I expected after reading the thread?
2. Responsiveness: not top notch, but acceptable.
3. "Bang" sensitivity: almost as bad as seen in Dave's video, but I don't think it will be a problem. Light touches with a stick did not result in huge response. Using the touchscreen without banging on it did not produce noticeable response. I just need to be more careful when using at the highest sensitivity.
4. Remote operation: perfect. Although I managed to lock the scope after playing with usb/ethernet options in setup. Also, web server not always starts after the cable is unplugged for a short time. I had to restart the scope to be able to use the remote interface again.
5: Triggering: this is the biggest issue I've seen so far: is it possible to synchronize trigger with sweep of the generator? I haven't seen such option anywhere, and it would add a lot to the functionality.
6. Open ports: quick scan revealed that the scope responds on TCP ports 80, 111,  1024, 1025, and 5025. 80 is HTTP,  5025 SCPI. 111 should be rpcbind. Hm, does it mean that the scope export volumes over NFS?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: piranha32 on May 06, 2017, 01:21:26 am
I've got my scope today, and I haven't had much time to play with it, but I'd like to share my first impressions:
1. Detents: much more stiff than I expected, but after an hour of so playing with the scope I don't hate them yet. Maybe they're not as annoying as I expected after reading the thread?
2. Responsiveness: not top notch, but acceptable.
3. "Bang" sensitivity: almost as bad as seen in Dave's video, but I don't think it will be a problem. Light touches with a stick did not result in huge response. Using the touchscreen without banging on it did not produce noticeable response. I just need to be more careful when using at the highest sensitivity.
4. Remote operation: perfect. Although I managed to lock the scope after playing with usb/ethernet options in setup. Also, web server not always starts after the cable is unplugged for a short time. I had to restart the scope to be able to use the remote interface again.
5: Triggering: this is the biggest issue I've seen so far: is it possible to synchronize trigger with sweep of the generator? I haven't seen such option anywhere, and it would add a lot to the functionality.
6. Open ports: quick scan revealed that the scope responds on TCP ports 80, 111,  1024, 1025, and 5025. 80 is HTTP,  5025 SCPI. 111 should be rpcbind. Hm, does it mean that the scope export volumes over NFS?
port 111 is also open on UDP, what could be a strong indication of running rpcbind, but rpcinfo can not connect. showmount does not show anything either. Bummer :(

EDIT: The scope also runs Bonjour. Here are services that I found in the advertisements:
http: 80/tcp
lxi: 80/tcp
scpi-raw: 1024/tcp
vxi: 5025/tcp

Ports 1025, 111, and one of UDP port (53686) still remain a mystery.

EDIT2: RPC responds, but seems to support only version 2 of the protocol. And does not list any services, not even portmapper.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on May 06, 2017, 07:32:52 am
Quote
5: Triggering: this is the biggest issue I've seen so far: is it possible to synchronize trigger with sweep of the generator? I haven't seen such option anywhere, and it would add a lot to the functionality.

Not currently possible - I did report this a while ago so hopefully it may be added.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 06, 2017, 11:54:23 am
There ought to be a position on the original encoder where both contacts are open ( maybe even the detented position), so holding it that position would allow another to be connected across it to test.
Yeah that's what I was hoping/planning. Annoyingly I only realised it as I was typing my previously reply, not while the case was off the scope.
ALPS gives some info about the detent positions in the datasheet (snippet attached) - looks like one signal is guaranteed to be stable at the detent stop, but the other is not.

I don't understand why test instruments use mechanical encoders instead of optical or magnetic. I've had encoders go bad in equipment. When my designs use encoders that get spun often I use optical, I only use mechanical when they are only occasional used, say, to adjust frequency in a precision oscillator every couple of months.

Most of these mechanical encoders get 15k cycles, I see the Alps used in the R&S gets 100k which is a lot better but it's also mechanical and that always seems to lower MTBF that I've seen.

Here's an interesting thing I've found, it looks like the detents, the little ball and indentation makes for shorter life, so maybe you're onto something removing them.

The data sheet for the Bourns EM14 optical encoder which I've used in several designs with good success shows 1M life cycle non-detent but look at the MTBF for detents!

Rob




 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on May 06, 2017, 12:21:00 pm
The detents aren't done by a little ball, it's a copper-coloured spring (I assume phosphor bronze) with 2 little ball shaped protrusions that pushes up against a plastic ring with little holes in it. There is grease, but it doesn't fill me with confidence regarding lifetime (though as you say, the ALPS parts have some good lifetime specs). Pic of the parts (sans spring, which I already lost!) attached. Note that the switch is a 1.5mm travel version rather than 0.5, but shouldn't make much difference.

Regarding whether detent removal is even going to work at all, I did a quick test with the hacked up encoder in parallel with one of the real ones (after finding a spot where both A and B switches were open):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWkmlo-1Lzk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWkmlo-1Lzk)
It's not perfect, the feel is slightly uneven while turning (I assume because of the contacts moving between riding on plastic/metal), and the velocity sensing is pretty basic so can be a little jerky when running near the velocity threshold, but this is present anyway.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Navarro on May 06, 2017, 02:35:28 pm
I've just had a play with the screen protector that Mike linked too - I can confirm that it works well, especially if you make sure everything is extremely clean (especially dust free) and put it on behind the front cover (looks like it is original). That said, I've taken it off again, as I like the crispness of the shiny screen and don't have it in an position where reflections are an issue.

While I had the cover off I also had a look at the encoders, and purchased a similar ALPS EC11J series part to investigate removing the detents, which are still one of the most irritating things about this unit. Unfortunately a stock part is not available without detents, and it also seems that R&S is using a semi-custom model (ALPS don't show the combination of shaft length and style on their product list). Having pulled the similar encoder apart, I'm pretty confident that the detents can be removed from the original R&S parts without destroying them, with the following process:

- buy a spare encoder, remove the outer metal "shell" carefully by un-bending the tabs underneath. Disassemble this one to get an idea of what's inside before working on the real thing (have a go at removing the detent spring too)

- carefully cut the shell of the R&S part on the pcb, as shown in the picture, to separate it into 6 individually soldered down parts (side cutters, possibly a small file could be useful here)

- unsolder each of these parts individually, paying special care to the 2 wide pieces (these have the tabs bent under the black plastic bit)

- pull the top assembly off (black plastic part, switch and contacts remain on the PCB), and disassemble the encoder to remove the detent spring (this is the only part which needs to be forcibly removed, everything else is just keyed to fit together and is held by the metal shell)

- re-assemble, and solder the "shell" from the spare encoder (with the bottom tabs removed) onto the PCB to replace the original one which was cut for easy removal. The removed tabs shouldn't matter as the black part that they retained is still held down by solder.

I'm not going to do this mod to my scope in the near term as I think it'd void the warranty pretty thoroughly, but I really don't like the detents so once I'm confident that the unit is working well I'll be seriously considering it. It's a real shame that R&S didn't ask ALPS to do a small customisation to the encoder to make all this unnecessary, but in their defence, the well-executed trace movements on the touch screen do make up for a lot of the annoyance.

I did this on a Hameg Oscilloscope and did a video about the procedure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR3vx_6Jl-A&index=9&list=PLkaiotro1N8AWLowz71_EIejKZ3Yjt05t (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR3vx_6Jl-A&index=9&list=PLkaiotro1N8AWLowz71_EIejKZ3Yjt05t)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on May 06, 2017, 02:37:01 pm
Just a heads up for those who want a few more probe accessories than the limited selection supplied with the RT-ZP03 these scopes come with.

The LeCroy "PKIT3-5MM-101" is completely compatible with the R&S probe (I assume they use the same OEM)

just so you know, the probes seem also to be the very same supplied with picoscopes
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on May 06, 2017, 02:55:43 pm
I did this on a Hameg Oscilloscope and did a video about the procedure.
Thanks for the video - very useful to see the results of your similar procedure.
Can I ask you why you changed the "Scale" encoders? And which encoders did you replace them with? Thanks.

On another topic, it seems that the P0 probe comp output has a fairly fast risetime (<1.1ns) - useful for a quick check of the scope/probe system performance.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on May 06, 2017, 05:42:06 pm
It's not perfect, the feel is slightly uneven while turning (I assume because of the contacts moving between riding on plastic/metal), and the velocity sensing is pretty basic so can be a little jerky when running near the velocity threshold, but this is present anyway.

How is the click function running without detents? Any problems when clicking and unwanted rotaion?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on May 06, 2017, 06:31:51 pm
How is the click function running without detents? Any problems when clicking and unwanted rotaion?
Couldn't test that sorry - the test encoder I got had a longer stroke switch (1.5 vs 0.5mm), and I didn't connect up the switch anyway (just the 3 quadrature wires).
I don't anticipate it to be a big issue though (as it is on the rigol multifunction knob) - the click function centres the trace and worst case you'll only be a tiny amount off it with encoder movement after pressing the switch. Also the scope is "sticky" around the centre point, at least for horizontal and vertical movements.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: korlatos on May 09, 2017, 08:31:04 pm
I just received my scope from Test Force in Ottawa and it works well.

Has anyone got a wireless mouse to work and if so which brand and model?

It works fine with a wired mouse, but I'd like to go wireless.

Thanks,

Stuart

The scope works fine with a Logitech V220 (M-RBS136) wireless mouse. I also tried three different USB 2.0  hubs (one Targus and two generic ones) and they all worked. I use the hub so I can attach both a wireless mouse and a USB flash drive.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: korlatos on May 09, 2017, 08:51:20 pm
I measured the 300 MHz RTB2004 rise time as 940ps using a Tektronix 284 pulse generator (<= 70ps rise time) and a 50 Ohm Tektronix 011-0099-00 termination. I also measured the bandwidth and found that the -3dB point is very close to 350 MHz. The scope is still usable for relative measurements at 500 MHz, and it can still display a 1GHz signal, although very attenuated. The bandwidth was measured with a Marconi 2022A signal generator and the same Tektronix 50 Ohm termination; the Marconi output was set to 6 dBm (447 mV).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on May 09, 2017, 11:21:13 pm
... it can still display a 1GHz signal...

Very good post!  I'm just curious if anyone knows what would cause just the bottom of the 1GHz wave to appear modulated like that.  I know this is 3x the rated frequency of the scope, just curious why the degradation wouldn't be symmetric vertically.  Shouldn't be aliasing if the wave is purely sinusoildal, given the 2.5Gsps sample rate.  The 500MHz wave looks symmetrical vertically.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on May 10, 2017, 06:54:06 am
... it can still display a 1GHz signal...

Very good post!  I'm just curious if anyone knows what would cause just the bottom of the 1GHz wave to appear modulated like that.  I know this is 3x the rated frequency of the scope, just curious why the degradation wouldn't be symmetric vertically.  Shouldn't be aliasing if the wave is purely sinusoildal, given the 2.5Gsps sample rate.  The 500MHz wave looks symmetrical vertically.
Standing wave on the cable perhaps?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bktemp on May 10, 2017, 07:05:55 am
Could it be a result of the 2.5GS/s samplingrate and a not perfect interpolation filter? Every other period of the 1GHz waveform showing the artefact and the .5 from 2.5GS/s look suspicious to me.
I had a similar effect when using an audio DAC with internal oversampling filter very close to 0.5x samplerate (outputting >45kHz sinewave for a DAC running at 100kHz).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on May 10, 2017, 12:30:11 pm
... it can still display a 1GHz signal...

Very good post!  I'm just curious if anyone knows what would cause just the bottom of the 1GHz wave to appear modulated like that.  I know this is 3x the rated frequency of the scope, just curious why the degradation wouldn't be symmetric vertically.  Shouldn't be aliasing if the wave is purely sinusoildal, given the 2.5Gsps sample rate.  The 500MHz wave looks symmetrical vertically.
Standing wave on the cable perhaps?
It would be nice to see some other frequencies near 1GHz...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on May 10, 2017, 06:11:48 pm
It would be nice to see some other frequencies near 1GHz...

I agree!  That might provide some clues.  Poke the system a bit and see how it responds.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: korlatos on May 10, 2017, 08:34:56 pm
So the effect is definitely there at lower frequencies as well (e.g. 950 MHz), but it is fading as the signal frequency decreases. You can still see it at 800 MHz, but it's pretty much gone at 700 MHz.

I set the signal to 950 MHz and tried three different cables of various lengths, and that definitely had a noticeable effect on the waveform. So, it could be a standing wave issue, as suggested by Mike.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on May 10, 2017, 08:47:49 pm
Hi,

I took another look at what mine does ( posted some earlier ). I did 900MHz, 1GHz, and 1.1GHz. I did one using single and one running at each frequency. It does get progressively worse as I go up in frequency. I went down to see where it was stable. On my unit, 500 MHz is where it's minimal, 600MHz was very noticeable. I used my Wavetek 2410 as a source connected to the scope with LR400 cable and type F connectors ( adapter on scope end )

Joel

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bktemp on May 10, 2017, 08:57:43 pm
What happens if you turn on another channel to reduce the maximum samplerate? If you also reduce the input frequency to keep the samplerate/input frequency at the same 2.5 ratio, the waveform should still be ok, if it is only a standing wave effect on the cable.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 10, 2017, 10:35:26 pm
This is what happens when sin x/x signal reconstruction stops working. Set the scope to dot mode and it will be fine.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on May 11, 2017, 01:04:43 am
I thought maybe you had something, I tried it and it gives the same result. Though I should note, dot mode is in a different menu that acquisition. Acquisition is where you can select Sin(x)/x, Linear, or Sample-Hold. The options other than Sin(x)/x are much worse. It may be that dot mode still uses Sin(x)/x.

This is what happens when sin x/x signal reconstruction stops working. Set the scope to dot mode and it will be fine.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: NA5WH on May 11, 2017, 01:23:05 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2tex3IlE44 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2tex3IlE44)

Finally got mine in my hands.  And of course had to do something silly with it to start off, just for the fun of it.
(hmm... well not sure how to embed videos on this forum, seems to not like the tags i'm trying to throw at it....  so just a link for now)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on May 11, 2017, 04:15:59 am
Hi NA5WH,

Can you share a few details about this? Software? Source? Files?

Thanks,
Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on May 11, 2017, 04:45:54 am
Hi NA5WH,

Can you share a few details about this? Software? Source? Files?

Thanks,
Michael

Found in the youtube link:

http://oscilloscopemusic.com (http://oscilloscopemusic.com)

Cool!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on May 11, 2017, 04:49:05 am
Hi NA5WH,

Can you share a few details about this? Software? Source? Files?

Thanks,
Michael
Found it.  ;D

From oscilloscope music artist Jerobeam Fenderson.

This one called Planets:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XziuEdpVUe0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XziuEdpVUe0)

And can be bought here for 1 EUR
https://jerobeamfenderson.bandcamp.com/track/planets (https://jerobeamfenderson.bandcamp.com/track/planets)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on May 11, 2017, 06:47:38 am
I thought maybe you had something, I tried it and it gives the same result. Though I should note, dot mode is in a different menu that acquisition. Acquisition is where you can select Sin(x)/x, Linear, or Sample-Hold. The options other than Sin(x)/x are much worse. It may be that dot mode still uses Sin(x)/x.

Dot mode is an INDEPENDEND setup  versus the interpolation type ...

Interpolstion just care abaout that there is at least one (original or calculated) sample per pixel column.

Dot mode only draws a vertical line between two adjacent points. DOT MODE IS NO INTERPOLATION!!!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on May 11, 2017, 07:05:01 am
It's that time again: fan noise.
I was expecting the RTB to be a bit quieter than this given the announced 28dB. I find the noise to be on par with many other instruments but quite tiring (not a nice swoosh - a lot of structure to the sound - probably the fan bearing itself).
Anybody has the same feedback?

When the scope boots, the fan briefly runs at low speed, but then it seems to be running faster the whole time. Is it temperature controlled? There is a yellow wire (PWM?).

Fan swap anybody?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on May 11, 2017, 08:20:00 am
Yeah fan noise is not as good as I thought it would be either - my initial impressions were in a room with aircon and I thought it was fine, but now it's at home in a quiet environment it's louder than I'd like (though much better than my rigol before it's fan swap).
I also noticed that during boot it runs at different speeds, including a nice quiet one - wish it would pick that speed when the ambient isn't too warm!

I'll have a look at what it's doing with the fan next time I have the cover off.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 11, 2017, 11:07:06 am
Yeah fan noise is not as good as I thought it would be either - my initial impressions were in a room with aircon and I thought it was fine, but now it's at home in a quiet environment it's louder than I'd like (though much better than my rigol before it's fan swap).
I also noticed that during boot it runs at different speeds, including a nice quiet one - wish it would pick that speed when the ambient isn't too warm!

I'll have a look at what it's doing with the fan next time I have the cover off.

Hydron,
I'm wondering if something isn't right, my scope is dead quiet and I'm very particular about noise. I just  turned everything in my lab off, shut the door to block any outside noise and I have to put my ear up to the scope to hear it. Even then it's not annoying. Could you have jostled it in your travels?
Rob
Title: He's back!
Post by: Robaroni on May 11, 2017, 12:12:06 pm
http://www.ebay.com/itm/352053924341?ul_noapp=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/352053924341?ul_noapp=true)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on May 11, 2017, 12:59:23 pm
Makes sense, guess that means interpolation has nothing to do with the waveform behavior. Makes me think dot mode selection should be in the same acquire menu so that you know you are selecting one or the other.

I thought maybe you had something, I tried it and it gives the same result. Though I should note, dot mode is in a different menu that acquisition. Acquisition is where you can select Sin(x)/x, Linear, or Sample-Hold. The options other than Sin(x)/x are much worse. It may be that dot mode still uses Sin(x)/x.

Dot mode is an INDEPENDEND setup  versus the interpolation type ...

Interpolstion just care abaout that there is at least one (original or calculated) sample per pixel column.

Dot mode only draws a vertical line between two adjacent points. DOT MODE IS NO INTERPOLATION!!!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on May 11, 2017, 02:45:11 pm
I measured the 300 MHz RTB2004 rise time as 940ps using a Tektronix 284 pulse generator (<= 70ps rise time) and a 50 Ohm Tektronix 011-0099-00 termination.
Yeah: show us your square wave https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/show-us-your-square-wave/350/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/show-us-your-square-wave/350/)
Actually wanted to be the first in the other thread myself with that box but I lack a fast enough signal
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on May 11, 2017, 02:49:03 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2tex3IlE44 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2tex3IlE44)

Finally got mine in my hands.  And of course had to do something silly with it to start off, just for the fun of it.
(hmm... well not sure how to embed videos on this forum, seems to not like the tags i'm trying to throw at it....  so just a link for now)

Cool! How did you get the signal on the channels?? Did you teardown an earphone? I want to try the youscope demo. Did anybody try this yet?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on May 11, 2017, 02:51:12 pm
Yeah fan noise is not as good as I thought it would be either - my initial impressions were in a room with aircon and I thought it was fine, but now it's at home in a quiet environment it's louder than I'd like (though much better than my rigol before it's fan swap).
I also noticed that during boot it runs at different speeds, including a nice quiet one - wish it would pick that speed when the ambient isn't too warm!

I'll have a look at what it's doing with the fan next time I have the cover off.

Hydron,
I'm wondering if something isn't right, my scope is dead quiet and I'm very particular about noise. I just  turned everything in my lab off, shut the door to block any outside noise and I have to put my ear up to the scope to hear it. Even then it's not annoying. Could you have jostled it in your travels?
Rob

Same for me. Cannot hear anything. Might it be that you "changed" something while you altered the defends?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on May 11, 2017, 02:55:42 pm
The RTB is easily the quietest thing I have with a fan.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on May 11, 2017, 03:44:59 pm
Hmm,
thanks for the feedback. Mine is on par for a unmodified DS1000Z or a 3446XA, which is bearable but not great. I am in a non-AC very quiet home.

For those with a quiet scope, do you also notice that during boot, the fan start high for a few seconds, then low for a few more seconds than high again forever?
BTW, just in case there was a firmware-related change, I have 01.204 (newer than on the web site).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: korlatos on May 11, 2017, 05:17:58 pm
My scope was also quite noisy out of the box, and was also modulating the fan speed on start-up. I took a screwdriver, poked it through a honeycomb opening, and gave the side of the fan a knock or two. That fixed it for me. A side effect of shipping, perhaps?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on May 11, 2017, 05:23:52 pm
There must be a lot of variation in fan noise. When I had a DS1054Z it was way louder then my 34461A.

Mike, how does your RTB2004 fan noise compare to the MSOX3104T(I find my MSOX3024T to be reasonably quiet).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on May 11, 2017, 05:28:58 pm
Yeah fan noise is not as good as I thought it would be either - my initial impressions were in a room with aircon and I thought it was fine, but now it's at home in a quiet environment it's louder than I'd like (though much better than my rigol before it's fan swap).
I also noticed that during boot it runs at different speeds, including a nice quiet one - wish it would pick that speed when the ambient isn't too warm!

I'll have a look at what it's doing with the fan next time I have the cover off.

Hydron,
I'm wondering if something isn't right, my scope is dead quiet and I'm very particular about noise. I just  turned everything in my lab off, shut the door to block any outside noise and I have to put my ear up to the scope to hear it. Even then it's not annoying. Could you have jostled it in your travels?
Rob

Same for me. Cannot hear anything. Might it be that you "changed" something while you altered the defends?

I haven't modified anything yet - will query the fan noise with R&S and hold off fixing the detents until I get the noise sorted out.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on May 11, 2017, 05:33:52 pm
Yeah fan noise is not as good as I thought it would be either - my initial impressions were in a room with aircon and I thought it was fine, but now it's at home in a quiet environment it's louder than I'd like (though much better than my rigol before it's fan swap).
I also noticed that during boot it runs at different speeds, including a nice quiet one - wish it would pick that speed when the ambient isn't too warm!

I'll have a look at what it's doing with the fan next time I have the cover off.

Hydron,
I'm wondering if something isn't right, my scope is dead quiet and I'm very particular about noise. I just  turned everything in my lab off, shut the door to block any outside noise and I have to put my ear up to the scope to hear it. Even then it's not annoying. Could you have jostled it in your travels?
Rob

Same for me. Cannot hear anything. Might it be that you "changed" something while you altered the defends?

I haven't modified anything yet - will query the fan noise with R&S and hold off fixing the detents until I get the noise sorted out.

Let me know how it goes. Not sure about the screwdriver method, but I'll pop the box open and see if there is anything wrong with the fan.

The funny thing is that I remember thinking that the scope was very quiet when I first turned it on, but later noticed it wasn't. It's possible something has changed in between.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 11, 2017, 05:46:28 pm
That sounds like a temperature controlled fan to me. They start quiet but get increasingly louder.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 11, 2017, 09:06:09 pm
That sounds like a temperature controlled fan to me. They start quiet but get increasingly louder.

I believe it is heat controlled fan. I would say it is quieter than my 34465A that sits above it. Is it possible that some of you have your scopes in an enclosed area? All those large holes are there for a reason.
Rob
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 11, 2017, 10:18:11 pm
http://www.ebay.com/itm/352053924341?ul_noapp=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/352053924341?ul_noapp=true)

Gone!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: gslick on May 11, 2017, 11:02:48 pm
http://www.ebay.com/itm/352053924341?ul_noapp=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/352053924341?ul_noapp=true)

Gone!

Next up, asking $3,795.00
http://www.ebay.com/itm/152545370074 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/152545370074)

I have one arriving on Monday. Hmm, keep it or flip it?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 11, 2017, 11:35:25 pm
http://www.ebay.com/itm/352053924341?ul_noapp=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/352053924341?ul_noapp=true)

Gone!

Next up, asking $3,795.00
http://www.ebay.com/itm/152545370074 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/152545370074)

I have one arriving on Monday. Hmm, keep it or flip it?

You have to decide whether you want a great scope or the money. OK, so you make $2k, what do you buy that competes with it for your initial investment plus your profit?

I've already made provisions, mine goes in the ground with me!

Rob
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on May 12, 2017, 06:20:45 am
Checked the fan voltage at the connector with long probes and got 10.7V. Basically running full blast despite an ambient of 21C. I don't think that's right. Anybody else with a quiet one can check voltage at runtime?

During boot, it briefly cycles through 4V (very quiet) and 7V (quiet) then back to 10V (not quiet).
Interestingly, the fan is very nicely mounted on a full rubber bed, so they clearly paid attention to fan vibration. Impressive.

BTW, is there any source for FW 01.204? I tried flashing the old 01.203 to see if it would solve the issue and now I have an error when booting...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 12, 2017, 07:39:28 am
I have one arriving on Monday. Hmm, keep it or flip it?
You have to decide whether you want a great scope or the money. OK, so you make $2k, what do you buy that competes with it for your initial investment plus your profit?
Lots of really nice scope for $4k on Ebay. Getting one with a bandwidth over 1GHz and lots of options isn't out of the question.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on May 12, 2017, 08:43:00 am
Checked the fan voltage at the connector with long probes and got 10.7V. Basically running full blast despite an ambient of 21C. I don't think that's right. Anybody else with a quiet one can check voltage at runtime?

During boot, it briefly cycles through 4V (very quiet) and 7V (quiet) then back to 10V (not quiet).
Interestingly, the fan is very nicely mounted on a full rubber bed, so they clearly paid attention to fan vibration. Impressive.

BTW, is there any source for FW 01.204? I tried flashing the old 01.203 to see if it would solve the issue and now I have an error when booting...
Just checked and my fan is at 10.62V when in normal operation. Could anyone with a quiet fan check theirs? I will be sending an email to R&S shortly about this and other bugs, and would be good to know what the "quiet" units measure (would reveal if it's the fan or the firmware at fault).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 12, 2017, 11:36:26 am
I have one arriving on Monday. Hmm, keep it or flip it?
You have to decide whether you want a great scope or the money. OK, so you make $2k, what do you buy that competes with it for your initial investment plus your profit?
Lots of really nice scope for $4k on Ebay. Getting one with a bandwidth over 1GHz and lots of options isn't out of the question.

I saw some used scopes, some older used scopes but nothing with a 10" touch screen, MDO, built in gen, etc. And the R&S is new with warranty, still the best deal I've found for $3,795.

Another one just got listed, bet it doesn't last long.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on May 12, 2017, 02:53:39 pm
Another one just got listed, bet it doesn't last long.
Do you have a link?  I Ddon't don't see it on eBay? Or is it already gone?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 12, 2017, 04:30:10 pm
Another one just got listed, bet it doesn't last long.
Do you have a link?  I Ddon't don't see it on eBay? Or is it already gone?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-Oscilloscope-All-Opt-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/152545370074?hash=item2384699fda:g:NawAAOSwX61ZC0bH (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-300MHz-4-16-Channel-Oscilloscope-All-Opt-R-S-RTB2K-COM4-/152545370074?hash=item2384699fda:g:NawAAOSwX61ZC0bH)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ocw on May 12, 2017, 08:35:46 pm
Some numbers from my RTB2004:

50 ohm bandwidth -3 dB:    327 MHz
50 ohm bandwidth -6 dB:    433 MHz
50 ohm bandwidth -10 dB:  594 MHz
50 ohm bandwidth -16 dB:  721 MHz
50 ohm bandwidth -20 dB:  803 MHz
50 ohm bandwidth -26 dB:  968 MHz
50 ohm bandwidth -30 dB: 1083 MHz

Input Impedance:  930.5 kilo-ohms

Amplitude Input      RTB2004 Measurement
   25.0 mV                        25.0 mV
   50.0                              50.0
   75.0                              74.8
   100                               100
   250                               250
   500                               500
   750                               758
   1.00 V                           1.01 V
   2.50                              2.50
   5.00                              5.00
   7.50                              7.50
   10.0                              9.98

10 MHz Square Wave output:  10,000,001.0 Hz Measured

Function Generator Sine Wave Output:
   100 Hz:  0.01% distortion
   1 kHz:    0.01% distortion    Noise:  -72.13 dB
   10 kHz:  0.01% distortion

Negligible fan noise.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 12, 2017, 08:55:51 pm
Note that the scope's input capacitance will screw up the input impedance badly so you'd have to adjust the readings to take that into account.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ocw on May 12, 2017, 09:21:03 pm
Quote
Note that the scope's input capacitance will screw up the input impedance badly so you'd have to adjust the readings to take that into account.

My impedance measurement procedure was:

10 VDC - 1M Ohm Resistor - RTB2004

4.83 VDC was measured on the RTB2004 vs. 4.82 VDC on my Keithley 616 connected to the RTB2004 input.  The RTB2004 measurement did not change when the 616 meter was added.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 12, 2017, 10:34:35 pm
For the RF measurements -ofcourse-.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on May 13, 2017, 12:29:36 pm
Some numbers from my RTB2004:

50 ohm bandwidth -3 dB:    327 MHz
...

How did you get it to 50Ohm?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ocw on May 13, 2017, 01:08:10 pm
Quote
How did you get it to 50Ohm?

Use a BNC 'T' on a RTB2004 input and place a 50 ohm load on one side of the 'T'.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on May 13, 2017, 01:41:50 pm
I just bought some 50 ohm feed throughs, less clutter.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on May 14, 2017, 12:07:03 am
Has anyone played with looking at modulated signals? I get less that stellar results when looking at even just an AM signal. I've tried the different color modes and settings and can't get a nice clean gradient. From what I understand, scopes labeled as DPO do this well and have an extra memory buffer and processing to do it. I don't think I read anything about the RTB series having this so maybe I just shouldn't expect the performance in this area.

Any thoughts?

Joel
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on May 14, 2017, 12:22:38 am
Has anyone played with looking at modulated signals? I get less that stellar results when looking at even just an AM signal. I've tried the different color modes and settings and can't get a nice clean gradient. From what I understand, scopes labeled as DPO do this well and have an extra memory buffer and processing to do it. I don't think I read anything about the RTB series having this so maybe I just shouldn't expect the performance in this area.

Any thoughts?

Joel
I think the density vs. brightness curve could be improved.
One issue is the high screen resolution means that lines, particularly verticals, end up very thin and disproportionally dim- this is particlularly noticeable on square waves, where you have to set the intensity pretty high for them to be visible, negating some of the advantage of an intensity graded display.
A side-by side comparison of an AM envelope looks significantly better on the Keysight,
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on May 14, 2017, 03:22:30 pm
Fan voltage on mine is 10.5v. It does appear to be under software control, as it varies during bootup.
Yellow wire is a tacho output, though it doesn't give an error ( at least not immediately or at startup if the fan is stalled.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KrzysztofB on May 18, 2017, 01:03:49 pm
Can someone tell me how to set up mask testing, so the bad waveforms would end up in History ?
Somehow I have problems setting that.

Also, is it possible to export captured frames comming from UART decoding?
I mean, frame by frame to CSV / XLS rows?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on May 18, 2017, 01:11:53 pm
Also, is it possible to export captured frames comming from UART decoding?
I mean, frame by frame to CSV / XLS rows?
Enable Bus Table - that lets you save captured data, but possibly not as useful as it should be until they fix the UART packet framing bug
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KrzysztofB on May 18, 2017, 01:13:59 pm
Any clue about if they scheduled for releasing firmware update?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on May 18, 2017, 01:21:00 pm
Any clue about if they scheduled for releasing firmware update?
Rich was saying this month, and this was a fairly early reported issue, and acknowledged., so hopefully that will be fixed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 18, 2017, 02:06:22 pm
Any clue about if they scheduled for releasing firmware update?
Rich was saying this month, and this was a fairly early reported issue, and acknowledged., so hopefully that will be fixed.
Still planned for May, but I'll get another update and let everyone know ASAP.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 18, 2017, 02:36:10 pm
Thanks Rich,

Here's the link again for updates.
Rob

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000/)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ruairi on May 18, 2017, 04:08:12 pm
I just got mine on Tuesday and I'm really impressed, it's very well organized and I only had to reach for the manual once. 

On the same day I also got some fantastic news that sets me up for some very expensive months ahead, I may have to go the eBay route.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on May 18, 2017, 07:56:38 pm
Just did a quick check with a 10 quid maplin wattmeter (0.1W resolution) for interest:
0.5W in standby (much lower than mike's number, possibly suspiciously low)
48.5W during acquisition, most channels and ethernet enabled, no USB device/host though
Measured ~0.6 power factor while running, almost 0 during standby.

If the 0.5W number is even vaguely accurate then I forgive having the soft power button
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on May 18, 2017, 08:27:45 pm
Got mine 2 days ago.  I am blown away by how nice the screen and user interface is.  I'm finding the touch screen very convenient. No noticeable lag for me but I'm coming from a hacked Rigol DS 2072 (though I have played a bit with Keysight infinivision scopes).   

I consider myself a middling hobbyiest though I did spend 10 years using analog oscilloscopes professionally from the mid 1980s to 1990s.    The Rigol was my first DSO and it's been a great scope but I've recently been finding the need for more channels . I had planned to spend about $1500 or so on a new 4 channel scope but when the package deal on this scope came along I could not resist (and I'm lucky enough to be at a place in my life where I can afford it). This is way more scope than I need right now but hopefully I'll grow into it.

The only issue I've had so far is getting the remote LAN connection to work on a Window's machine. I've tried both my Win 7 Laptop and the XP machine in my lab. An IP is assigned and the scope says a link is established but put the IP in a browser window and nada! I've tried all the usual things, turning off firewalls, different browsers, cables,  etc but nada.  Aargh - I despise Window's networking. |O  Any advice welcomed! 

Ironically, my 10 year old Mac Laptop has no problem connecting.  I checked the rise time with my Tektronix DSO demo board that has a pulse with a rise time specified at < 200ps.  The scope shows a risetime that hovers around 1 ns which puts the BW at about 350MHz - the same ballpark as others have found.

Bottom line - I LOVE this scope. Now I need to up my game to take advantage of all it's features.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=316674;image)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on May 18, 2017, 08:41:24 pm
I had no issues connecting under Win7 ( using Firefox)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on May 19, 2017, 12:20:52 am
I had no issues connecting under Win7 ( using Firefox)

Thanks. I think the next step is to attach the scope to my wireless router and see if I can connect that way instead of direct scope to computer cabling.

My usual back asswards approach to Windows networking issues is to try different things until one works and then work back from that.  I wish I had enough networking skills to approach it more systematically.. ::)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KE5FX on May 19, 2017, 12:32:34 am
I had no issues connecting under Win7 ( using Firefox)

Thanks. I think the next step is to attach the scope to my wireless router and see if I can connect that way instead of direct scope to computer cabling.

My usual back asswards approach to Windows networking issues is to try different things until one works and then work back from that.  I wish I had enough networking skills to approach it more systematically.. ::)

If you hook it up directly to the PC, it will not get a DHCP address.  Connecting it to your router should fix that problem.

You can hook it up directly to the computer but you'll have to assign it an address, gateway, and subnet mask manually.  Much easier to attach it to your LAN's existing DHCP server like any other PC.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on May 19, 2017, 12:56:04 am

If you hook it up directly to the PC, it will not get a DHCP address.  Connecting it to your router should fix that problem.

You can hook it up directly to the computer but you'll have to assign it an address, gateway, and subnet mask manually.  Much easier to attach it to your LAN's existing DHCP server like any other PC.

OK thanks. That sort  of makes sense. In hindsight I should have tried that already ( I will when I get home).   But why does it work fine when directly connnected to my Mac laptop?  Doesn't a direct Windows box connection support DHCP?   It does appear to get assigned an IP address when directly connected to the Windows box (so I assumed DHCP was functioning).  Also it would be nice if the manual would spell that out..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KE5FX on May 19, 2017, 01:13:50 am

If you hook it up directly to the PC, it will not get a DHCP address.  Connecting it to your router should fix that problem.

You can hook it up directly to the computer but you'll have to assign it an address, gateway, and subnet mask manually.  Much easier to attach it to your LAN's existing DHCP server like any other PC.

OK thanks. That sort  of makes sense. In hindsight I should have tried that already ( I will when I get home).   But why does it work fine when directly connnected to my Mac laptop?  Doesn't a direct Windows box connection support DHCP?   It does appear to get assigned an IP address when directly connected to the Windows box (so I assumed DHCP was functioning).  Also it would be nice if the manual would spell that out..

Couldn't say for sure.  In my experience Windows does not enable a DHCP server by default.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Electro Fan on May 19, 2017, 01:25:22 am
Hi mtdoc, Congrats on the new scope!  If you have the serial decoding (and the digital channels?) let us know how things compare to whatever you had (serial decoding?) on the DS2072.  Thx, EF
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on May 19, 2017, 01:48:44 am
Hi mtdoc, Congrats on the new scope!  If you have the serial decoding (and the digital channels?) let us know how things compare to whatever you had (serial decoding?) on the DS2072.  Thx, EF

Thanks and I will. But the truth is, I made very little use of the Rigol's serial decoding - in part due to the small screen and in part due to it only having 2 channels. I've mostly been using a cheap eBay logic analyzer or my Digilent Analog Discovery.  Now that I have a scope with a big screen and 4 channels (plus 16 logic channels oh my!) - I will definitely be decoding on the scope more.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on May 19, 2017, 03:11:10 pm
After few delays etc :) I'm now also a RTB2004 owner - only got 59 minutes with it so far - but seems fine apart from a few issues here and there. 

Now after kids are asleep I'll try to measure some microphones. hmm...

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: casinada on May 19, 2017, 03:17:13 pm
No issues here connected to Windows 10 Pro using Google Chrome or Microsoft Edge.  :-+

I don't know if anybody mentioned that the probes are made by Texas:
http://www.hktexas.hk/en/pro_passive_probe.html (http://www.hktexas.hk/en/pro_passive_probe.html)
The model number seems to be : TX5430 or TX5130 (with metalic BNC)
http://images.100y.com.tw/pdf_file/59-TEXAS.pdf (http://images.100y.com.tw/pdf_file/59-TEXAS.pdf)
The only difference seems to be that the RT-ZP03 doesn't come  with the BNC to probe tip adaptor and the colors of the identification tags for the probes.
http://www.hktexas.hk/en/pro_pa.html (http://www.hktexas.hk/en/pro_pa.html)

Any comments on the probes?  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on May 19, 2017, 08:26:51 pm
I don't know if anybody mentioned that the probes are made by Texas:
.
.
Any comments on the probes?  :)

Only that they are not actually in Texas, see below (I'm in Texas).  8)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: casinada on May 19, 2017, 09:30:00 pm
Yes, Hong Kong Texas  :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on May 20, 2017, 05:44:26 am
I don't know if anybody mentioned that the probes are made by Texas:
.
.
Any comments on the probes?  :)

Only that they are not actually in Texas, see below (I'm in Texas).  8)
Yeah, they are about as honestly named as Paris, Texas, complete with its own Eiffel Tower.  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on May 20, 2017, 07:47:45 am
Seems that LeCroy uses the same OEM for some of their probes, as I found out when their accessory bundle fit the R&S probes: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg1200931/#msg1200931 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg1200931/#msg1200931)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 1design on May 20, 2017, 12:05:11 pm
Just got mine, looks good. I can't wait to get some spare time and integrate it into Matlab to add the VSA functionality :-+ :popcorn:
Not a 14 bit front end, but still, for low order modulations it should work pretty well with the fast ETH interface!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skench on May 23, 2017, 08:47:27 am

Did Dave give up on a in depth review of this scope?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on May 23, 2017, 10:39:29 am
...  at least Dave could measure with it :-+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj9EJCKqiT4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj9EJCKqiT4)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on May 23, 2017, 02:54:21 pm

Did Dave give up on a in depth review of this scope?
Maybe he just waits for the first firmware update which -imho- would make sense.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on May 25, 2017, 03:36:30 am
There's an updated datasheet for the RTB out now, I compared it to the last one and there were 2 changes...

Added to compliance section:
"in line with EN 55011 class A, operation in
residential, commercial and business
areas or in small-size companies is not
covered; therefore the instrument may not
be operated in residential, commercial and
business areas or in small-size companies
unless additional measures are taken to
ensure that EN 55011 class B is complied
with."
(...so I guess that means it has the potential to cause interference in excess of that spec.)

UART decode spec changed: max bitrate officially reduced to 3 Mbps.   :-\
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 25, 2017, 12:41:03 pm
There's an updated datasheet for the RTB out now, I compared it to the last one and there were 2 changes...

Added to compliance section:
"in line with EN 55011 class A, operation in
residential, commercial and business
areas or in small-size companies is not
covered; therefore the instrument may not
be operated in residential, commercial and
business areas or in small-size companies
unless additional measures are taken to
ensure that EN 55011 class B is complied
with."
(...so I guess that means it has the potential to cause interference in excess of that spec.)

UART decode spec changed: max bitrate officially reduced to 3 Mbps.   :-\

OK, what's EN 55011 class B?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: exe on May 25, 2017, 12:45:26 pm
Just got mine, looks good. I can't wait to get some spare time and integrate it into Matlab to add the VSA functionality :-+ :popcorn:
Not a 14 bit front end, but still, for low order modulations it should work pretty well with the fast ETH interface!

Could you please elaborate what's so special about 10bit DAC? I tried to find any pictures to comparison, but didn't find any _convincing_ evidence showing that 10-12bit scopes make a huge difference. I also noticed in some specs there are "effective number of DAC bits" which is often not even 8! So, looks like it's not always possible to make effective use of all the DAC bits available.

I'm asking because I'm making a decision -- to buy a cheaper scope from GW Instek (like gds-2074e), or to go with rtb2004. So, any pictures are welcome!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on May 25, 2017, 01:49:40 pm
Just got mine, looks good. I can't wait to get some spare time and integrate it into Matlab to add the VSA functionality :-+ :popcorn:
Not a 14 bit front end, but still, for low order modulations it should work pretty well with the fast ETH interface!

Could you please elaborate what's so special about 10bit DAC? I tried to find any pictures to comparison, but didn't find any _convincing_ evidence showing that 10-12bit scopes make a huge difference. I also noticed in some specs there are "effective number of DAC bits" which is often not even 8! So, looks like it's not always possible to make effective use of all the DAC bits available.

I'm asking because I'm making a decision -- to buy a cheaper scope from GW Instek (like gds-2074e), or to go with rtb2004. So, any pictures are welcome!
Going from 8 bits to 10 bits or more doesn't make much difference if you only ever look at waveforms on the screen. If you process those waveforms, or use the scope as a capture device to feed waveforms to an external device (like the above user wanting to feed waveforms into Matlab) it can make a big difference.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 25, 2017, 02:06:38 pm
Just got mine, looks good. I can't wait to get some spare time and integrate it into Matlab to add the VSA functionality :-+ :popcorn:
Not a 14 bit front end, but still, for low order modulations it should work pretty well with the fast ETH interface!

Could you please elaborate what's so special about 10bit DAC? I tried to find any pictures to comparison, but didn't find any _convincing_ evidence showing that 10-12bit scopes make a huge difference. I also noticed in some specs there are "effective number of DAC bits" which is often not even 8! So, looks like it's not always possible to make effective use of all the DAC bits available.

I'm asking because I'm making a decision -- to buy a cheaper scope from GW Instek (like gds-2074e), or to go with rtb2004. So, any pictures are welcome!

It makes a noticeable resolution difference. 2 to the 8th = 256, 2 to the 10th = 1024 or 4 times better resolution. So it's much better, go with 10 bit or better 12 bit (4096 = 16 times better).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 25, 2017, 02:47:23 pm
You also need to take the effective number of bits into account. There is no use comparing number of ADC bits without looking at the ENOB (which must also include the effects of the jitter of the sampling clock!).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fgrir on May 25, 2017, 03:09:07 pm
Could you please elaborate what's so special about 10bit DAC?

The RTB2K screen has 800 pixel vertical resolution so you can see at least 9-bits straight up.  In general for any higher resolution scope I also find the extra bits useful in the following situations:

ENOB can be an issue but usually doesn't come into play until higher frequencies, there is a whole world of low-frequency analysis where the extra bits can be handy.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on May 25, 2017, 03:16:14 pm
There's an updated datasheet for the RTB out now, I compared it to the last one ...

UART decode spec changed: max bitrate officially reduced to 3 Mbps.   :-\

Wow! So Mike's discovery wasn't a typo.  Didn't seem possible they would design the scope with such a low rate. Hopefully that gets fixed in the rumored "pro" version of the scope. In fact that might be where many of Mike's suggestions wind up! :D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: exe on May 25, 2017, 03:34:22 pm
The RTB2K screen has 800 pixel vertical resolution so you can see at least 9-bits straight up.  In general for any higher resolution scope I also find the extra bits useful in the following situations:
  • Changing vertical scale after waveform capture, sort of like long memory in the other axis
  • FFT
  • Nonlinear math (If the RTB2K had any useful math capabilities  :()
  • Post-processing as mentioned by others

ENOB can be an issue but usually doesn't come into play until higher frequencies, there is a whole world of low-frequency analysis where the extra bits can be handy.

I got it, thanks.Still, I would be very grateful If someone could share any actual data. Like, two zoomed waveforms, one is smoth and nice from rtb2000, another one crude and steppy from an 8bit scope.

Concerning FFT, the difference is in the noise floor?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fgrir on May 25, 2017, 04:01:55 pm
I got it, thanks.Still, I would be very grateful If someone could share any actual data. Like, two zoomed waveforms, one is smoth and nice from rtb2000, another one crude and steppy from an 8bit scope.

Both waveforms acquired at 1V/div and then zoomed up to 200mV/div.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on May 25, 2017, 04:27:50 pm
What happens if you capture both originally at 200mV/div?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fgrir on May 25, 2017, 04:52:06 pm
What happens if you capture both originally at 200mV/div?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fgrir on May 25, 2017, 04:56:42 pm
And while I'm at it, here is the same signal with each scope in High Resolution mode acquired at 5V/div, zoomed up to 200mV/div.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fgrir on May 25, 2017, 05:48:40 pm
Concerning FFT, the difference is in the noise floor?

The effect of more bits on FFT performance is more complex than that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantization_(signal_processing)#Quantization_noise_model
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: exe on May 25, 2017, 08:45:03 pm
Thank you very much! May I ask you to capture a waveform of a, say, 10MHz sine or higher? That's because 1KHz sine is too simple task to capture. I'm curious if 10bits are preserved over the whole bandwidth.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MarkL on May 25, 2017, 09:30:23 pm
And while I'm at it, here is the same signal with each scope in High Resolution mode acquired at 5V/div, zoomed up to 200mV/div.
That some pretty strange distortion on the MSO X3024A.  Here's your same hi-res measurement on a MSO X3104.  Still noisier than the RTB2K, but not distorted.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 25, 2017, 09:41:57 pm
I used to get similar distortion on my Tek TDS744A if there wasn't enough noise to make the hi-res oversampling work correctly.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MarkL on May 25, 2017, 10:14:11 pm
I used to get similar distortion on my Tek TDS744A if there wasn't enough noise to make the hi-res oversampling work correctly.
Interesting.  Going from 5V to 200mV makes it 1 bit per division, which pretty much matches the period of the distortion.  I think could also be some DNL in the ADC.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on May 25, 2017, 10:23:49 pm
I would comment that ENOB is more important than the ADC's banner bit-depth spec. And, no scope will ever have ENOB=BoR because there's going to be noise. That's one of the industry's dirty secrets :).

Also, the capture-then-zoom-in approach will just highlight ENOB over normal ADC bits. To optimize the ADC you should zoom all your signals in full-screen when capturing, which is something I harp on a bit and have shown on our YouTube channel and our blog here:
http://bit.ly/2rVzs6n (http://bit.ly/2rVzs6n)

If you're trying to compare ADCs, you should compare between full-scale measurements or else the scope noise is playing a bigger part of the measurement than normal. And, you should generally do that comparison at the smallest hardware V/div setting in the oscilloscope.

For High Resolution mode, you also want to make sure that the time/div setting is slow enough to take advantage of the HighRes oversampling mechanism.

I'm curious if 10bits are preserved over the whole bandwidth.

Generally, if a data sheet doesn't specify this, it'll cover the whole bandwidth. That or they're trying to hide a defect or something, but R&S doesn't play that game to my knowledge.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on May 25, 2017, 11:15:06 pm
Did Dave give up on a in depth review of this scope?

I have scopes which I got before this one that I haven't reviewed yet, there is a big backlog.
People underestimate how much work is involved in doing and "in depth" review of a scope like this, it is a massive task, you really have to be motivated to do it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on May 26, 2017, 12:12:52 am
I would comment that ENOB is more important than the ADC's banner bit-depth spec. And, no scope will ever have ENOB=BoR because there's going to be noise. That's one of the industry's dirty secrets :).

I understand ENOB.  What's BoR?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: exe on May 26, 2017, 07:13:24 am
I understand ENOB.  What's BoR?

May be Bits of Resolution?

PS thank you, guys, for detailed answers about ENOB! This helped me a lot.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fgrir on May 26, 2017, 05:42:46 pm
That some pretty strange distortion on the MSO X3024A.  Here's your same hi-res measurement on a MSO X3104.  Still noisier than the RTB2K, but not distorted.
That is interesting that yours is so much better.  I don't want to hijack the thread into a long discussion on the MSOX Hires mode so I won't post any more screens on this, but I get a similar result on all four input channels, with two different function gens, switching to 50-ohm termination, etc.  Maybe a difference on the 1GHz front-end?  My unit is a year out-of-cal, but I'd be surprised if cal would address this at all.  I'm inclined to agree with nctnico that there just isn't enough noise on my 5V/div range to make averaging useful.

To optimize the ADC you should zoom all your signals in full-screen when capturing

I agree, but this was just meant to illustrate the utility of having the extra bits available if you decide you need to zoom in after you've already captured a waveform.  I love my MSOX3024, but sometimes there is no substitute for dynamic range.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Someone on May 26, 2017, 11:21:54 pm
That some pretty strange distortion on the MSO X3024A.  Here's your same hi-res measurement on a MSO X3104.  Still noisier than the RTB2K, but not distorted.
That is interesting that yours is so much better.  I don't want to hijack the thread into a long discussion on the MSOX Hires mode so I won't post any more screens on this, but I get a similar result on all four input channels, with two different function gens, switching to 50-ohm termination, etc.  Maybe a difference on the 1GHz front-end?  My unit is a year out-of-cal, but I'd be surprised if cal would address this at all.  I'm inclined to agree with nctnico that there just isn't enough noise on my 5V/div range to make averaging useful.
Try doing a user cal, you'll need enough cables and splitters to make the octopus harness.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: blacksheeplogic on May 27, 2017, 12:43:06 am
Didn't seem possible they would design the scope with such a low rate. Hopefully that gets fixed in the rumored "pro" version of the scope.

I don't think it's a bad scope, but with the current pricing it's now too close to the 3000T. If there is a pro version it will be interesting to see how they position it against the 3000T without lowering the current price of the 'non-Pro' version significantly.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 27, 2017, 01:09:09 pm
Didn't seem possible they would design the scope with such a low rate. Hopefully that gets fixed in the rumored "pro" version of the scope.

I don't think it's a bad scope, but with the current pricing it's now too close to the 3000T. If there is a pro version it will be interesting to see how they position it against the 3000T without lowering the current price of the 'non-Pro' version significantly.
I normally try not to intervene because this forum does such a good job of correcting misinformation itself, but your comment caught my attention. 

Clearly the RTB2000 was designed to compete with the 2000x and DPO2000 from Tek.  And with that you get a 10-bit ADC, significantly longer memory, a large, high resolution touch display, significantly lower noise, more SR and (available) bandwidth, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, similar to better update rate, boots faster, standard ethernet, etc, etc.  There are few to no specs that those products beat the RTB2000 on and they are priced similarly. 

Even when comparing to the x3000T, the RTB2000 gives you a 4x the vertical resolution (10-bit ADC), significantly more memory, a larger, higher resolution display, lower noise, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, standard ethernet and in most cases it costs half the price.  I wouldn't call that too close.  Does the x3000T have benefits?  Sure - more available bandwidth/SR, 50Ohm input and higher update rate.  But again, the RTB2000 wasn't designed to compete with the x3000T hence the reason it doesn't have those features. 

In the end, value is clearly a personal belief (of which I personally think we stack up extremely well on value), but I wouldn't say the current pricing is too close to the x3000T. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TK on May 27, 2017, 01:27:14 pm
It looks like initial "I have to have it" impulse is fading as the last 3 RTB2004 units that showed up on eBay are still there and prices are being reduced.

R&S should have targeted the 3000T (for features, capabilities, measurement) and not the low end of the Keysight X Series like 2000X.  Don't forget that Keysight has the trade-in incentive program offering up to 30% discount and if you are lucky you can get one 1000X scope as well (as some forum member reported)

I think the current 2000X 2 channel pricing is in the $1000 territory, I saw some new units being sold by Fry's for $950 (local in store pick only), so maybe Keysight is getting rid of the 2000X inventory.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 27, 2017, 01:31:58 pm
Didn't seem possible they would design the scope with such a low rate. Hopefully that gets fixed in the rumored "pro" version of the scope.

I don't think it's a bad scope, but with the current pricing it's now too close to the 3000T. If there is a pro version it will be interesting to see how they position it against the 3000T without lowering the current price of the 'non-Pro' version significantly.
I normally try not to intervene because this forum does such a good job of correcting misinformation itself, but your comment caught my attention. 

Clearly the RTB2000 was designed to compete with the 2000x and DPO2000 from Tek.  And with that you get a 10-bit ADC, significantly longer memory, a large, high resolution touch display, significantly lower noise, more SR and (available) bandwidth, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, similar to better update rate, boots faster, standard ethernet, etc, etc.  There are few to no specs that those products beat the RTB2000 on and they are priced similarly. 

Even when comparing to the x3000T, the RTB2000 gives you a 4x the vertical resolution (10-bit ADC), significantly more memory, a larger, higher resolution display, lower noise, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, standard ethernet and in most cases it costs half the price.  I wouldn't call that too close.  Does the x3000T have benefits?  Sure - more available bandwidth/SR, 50Ohm input and higher update rate.  But again, the RTB2000 wasn't designed to compete with the x3000T hence the reason it doesn't have those features. 

In the end, value is clearly a personal belief (of which I personally think we stack up extremely well on value), but I wouldn't say the current pricing is too close to the x3000T. 
Without including the options this comparison is apples & oranges especially if the Keysight x3000T can be hacked to get the options for free. Besides that the R&S options quickly add several $k where Keysight charges less than 1$k for the most popular ones. AFAIK the R&S has a lower base price but more expensive options compared to Keysight.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 27, 2017, 01:37:22 pm
Rich,
I have both the DPO2024 from Tek and the R&S RTB2004. I think they are both decent scopes. The R&S benefits from newer chips that weren't around when the Tek was designed or the Keysight for that matter. So you guys got to market first and did a really good job on this scope, it really is a pleasure to use and own.

I think we are getting to the point where someone in the market for a 2 to 3k buck scope will get all the bells and whistles. The serial decoding, the mem, etc. because the cheap scope makers will force that to happen. Honestly I wouldn't pay $8k for this but at $3500 to $4k you own the market right now.

Rob
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 27, 2017, 01:50:59 pm
Didn't seem possible they would design the scope with such a low rate. Hopefully that gets fixed in the rumored "pro" version of the scope.

I don't think it's a bad scope, but with the current pricing it's now too close to the 3000T. If there is a pro version it will be interesting to see how they position it against the 3000T without lowering the current price of the 'non-Pro' version significantly.
I normally try not to intervene because this forum does such a good job of correcting misinformation itself, but your comment caught my attention. 

Clearly the RTB2000 was designed to compete with the 2000x and DPO2000 from Tek.  And with that you get a 10-bit ADC, significantly longer memory, a large, high resolution touch display, significantly lower noise, more SR and (available) bandwidth, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, similar to better update rate, boots faster, standard ethernet, etc, etc.  There are few to no specs that those products beat the RTB2000 on and they are priced similarly. 

Even when comparing to the x3000T, the RTB2000 gives you a 4x the vertical resolution (10-bit ADC), significantly more memory, a larger, higher resolution display, lower noise, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, standard ethernet and in most cases it costs half the price.  I wouldn't call that too close.  Does the x3000T have benefits?  Sure - more available bandwidth/SR, 50Ohm input and higher update rate.  But again, the RTB2000 wasn't designed to compete with the x3000T hence the reason it doesn't have those features. 

In the end, value is clearly a personal belief (of which I personally think we stack up extremely well on value), but I wouldn't say the current pricing is too close to the x3000T. 
Without including the options this comparison is apples & oranges especially if the Keysight x3000T can be hacked to get the options for free. Besides that the R&S options quickly add several $k where Keysight charges less than 1$k for the most popular ones. AFAIK the R&S has a lower base price but more expensive options compared to Keysight.

Let me say something about 'hacking' test instruments. It's stealing, it's the same as robbing tools out of a hardware store. When you steal every honest person who buys that product pays extra.

Manufacturers depend on grading scopes so they can offer viability to customers. You get a scope for $1k because the manufacturer can implement a software change an make a profit. So how would you feel if you put the time, effort and money into an algorithm that someone hacked and gave away for free? I've had that done to me, treat manufacturers with some dignity and respect.

That goes for you too Dave. I know you're honest in your YT's, carry it over to the manufacturers.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 27, 2017, 02:15:12 pm
Let me say something about 'hacking' test instruments. It's stealing, it's the same as robbing tools out of a hardware store. When you steal every honest person who buys that product pays extra.
This has been debated to death already so let's not start again because there is way more to it than your black&white view.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ruairi on May 27, 2017, 02:33:06 pm
I think the current 2000X 2 channel pricing is in the $1000 territory, I saw some new units being sold by Fry's for $950 (local in store pick only), so maybe Keysight is getting rid of the 2000X inventory.

No, just Frys clearing their entire Keysight inventory.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on May 27, 2017, 02:50:56 pm
Let me say something about 'hacking' test instruments. It's stealing, it's the same as robbing tools out of a hardware store. When you steal every honest person who buys that product pays extra.
So you think that once you have paid for something and taken possession, its still not really yours? You are going to have a hard sell trying to convince many people of what you said there. It flies in the face of most definitions of what ownership means. Even most of the people in companies which rely on this kind of product segmentation regard it as more as a cat and mouse game than stealing - and their incomes rely on it. :)

How far do you take this thinking? If I buy a 200HP car, and get the engine remapped to produce a 300HP car, have I stolen the other 100HP of performance? Most people think I am just tearing up the warranty.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 27, 2017, 02:52:16 pm
I make a scope with different options, one costs $10k and the other one costs $1k, the only difference is firmware. Right, it's not black and white, so point me to the other views.

People will always attempt to justify their transgression regardless how fragile those justifications are.




Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 27, 2017, 03:18:10 pm
 "Even most of the people in companies which rely on this kind of product segmentation regard it as more as a cat and mouse game than stealing - and their incomes rely on it."


This is called anecdotal fallacy. My uncle Louie smoked and drank his whole life and lived to be 105. "Most of the people"? Who?

"Cat and mouse game" ? So you're saying the manufacturer doesn't want you to steal their software? That's what I said, you're making my case for me!


"How far do you take this thinking? If I buy a 200HP car, and get the engine remapped to produce a 300HP car, have I stolen the other 100HP of performance? Most people think I am just tearing up the warranty."

Depends, does the manufacturer sell a 300HP version for more money and did you remap it with their firmware edition? Yes? Then you're stealing their firmware.
It gets worse, if you post it on YT like Dave did, it's called theft of Intellectual Properties and that YT can be used against you in court.

"Most  people think it's just tearing up the warranty". Again, who? And does the belief that "most people" condone it make it justifiable?
What? Honesty is a product of popularity?


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Amazing on May 27, 2017, 03:31:24 pm
Edit: decided I rather not get involved in this argument.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on May 27, 2017, 03:41:14 pm
Once you buy a piece of hardware, it is yours to do with as you please.   :horse:
More accurately if you buy a piece of equipment, and don't agree to any licence conditions that say you don't really fully own the equipment, its yours to do with as you please. Many laws support this view, such as the ones supporting the right to reverse engineer. One or two, like the DMCA in the US, fly against it in some juristictions. Some instruments do come with licence agreements, such as the ones running Windows. Most don't.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on May 27, 2017, 04:20:30 pm
I couldn't be happier with my RTB2004.  As has been said repeatedly, the promo deal was a no brainer.

It remains to be seen if the market will support their current full pricing for the options - but without those it is clearly cost competitive with other current offerings - though that may be changing as other manufacturers update their mid range scopes.

The whole upgrade hack of hardware you own had been beat to death on this forum but the bottom line is that it is not illegal to do so.  Ethics becomes a matter of opinion but I believe the majority agree that if I buy a piece of hardware (and do not sign a user agreement) I full own it and am free to do with it what I want.

Different companies likely view the hacking differently.  If you read between the lines, it seems pretty clear that Chinese companies such as Rigol and Siglent give their tacit approval and may even count on it in their product development and pricing.  For the American and European manufacturers it is not so clear.  Reading between the lines of some of Daniel from Keysight's posts re their new line of low end scopes - Keysight may be coming around to the Chinese point of view.  IMO that's a smart move and will only serve to increase their market penetration.  They surely realize that institutional/commercial buyers will be paying full price for fully optioned scopes regardless and that giving tacit approval to hacking by hobbyists and home use professionals they are ultimately increasing their market share in the institutional/commercial professional environment. It's cheap marketing.

As for R&S - their previous attempt to get Dave to pull hacking info on an outdated product from the forum appears to mean they are taking a harder line.  Perhaps that will change.  I almost wonder if their screaming good no-brainer promotional deal on the RTB2004 (at least for the US market) was an attempt to put fully loaded scopes in the hands of earlier adopters who might otherwise be tempted to investigate the hacking possibilities...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: exe on May 27, 2017, 04:44:54 pm
I could easily write, e.g., a serial decoder and give it away, but I cannot because software is locked. Although, I hope, their ethernet or USB protocol is not encrypted and I can try writing a PC software to do so.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 27, 2017, 04:52:30 pm
Didn't seem possible they would design the scope with such a low rate. Hopefully that gets fixed in the rumored "pro" version of the scope.

I don't think it's a bad scope, but with the current pricing it's now too close to the 3000T. If there is a pro version it will be interesting to see how they position it against the 3000T without lowering the current price of the 'non-Pro' version significantly.
I normally try not to intervene because this forum does such a good job of correcting misinformation itself, but your comment caught my attention. 

Clearly the RTB2000 was designed to compete with the 2000x and DPO2000 from Tek.  And with that you get a 10-bit ADC, significantly longer memory, a large, high resolution touch display, significantly lower noise, more SR and (available) bandwidth, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, similar to better update rate, boots faster, standard ethernet, etc, etc.  There are few to no specs that those products beat the RTB2000 on and they are priced similarly. 

Even when comparing to the x3000T, the RTB2000 gives you a 4x the vertical resolution (10-bit ADC), significantly more memory, a larger, higher resolution display, lower noise, 1mV/div in HW with full bandwidth, standard ethernet and in most cases it costs half the price.  I wouldn't call that too close.  Does the x3000T have benefits?  Sure - more available bandwidth/SR, 50Ohm input and higher update rate.  But again, the RTB2000 wasn't designed to compete with the x3000T hence the reason it doesn't have those features. 

In the end, value is clearly a personal belief (of which I personally think we stack up extremely well on value), but I wouldn't say the current pricing is too close to the x3000T. 
Without including the options this comparison is apples & oranges especially if the Keysight x3000T can be hacked to get the options for free. Besides that the R&S options quickly add several $k where Keysight charges less than 1$k for the most popular ones. AFAIK the R&S has a lower base price but more expensive options compared to Keysight.
I see your point and I'll be the first to admit the option pricing, on any Tek/Keysight/R&S/LeCroy scope, can sometimes be hard to stomach, especially for a hobbyist. 

But one thing people might be missing is we also offer bundle packages.  RTB-PK1 includes all the decode options (I2C, SPI, RS232, CAN, LIN), history/segmented mode (with 160Mpts of memory) and the AWG/PatGen for $1,260.  The 2000x app bundle is $1,250.  And keep in mind things that the 2000x charges for (e.g. Ethernet, etc) are standard on the RTB2000.  And this is before we look at things like MSO.  On the RTB2000 you can use both digital and analog channels for decode.  You get 2x the number of digital channels (16 vs. 8) and the price is basically the same ($746 vs. $770).  If we look at Tek, the DPO2000's app bundle is less ($750) but you also get less (no history/segmented, no AWG, etc).  The MSO for it varies some, but even at the cheapest point it is ~$600.  Pretty comparable.

So are our options expensive?  Maybe.  But we've certainly tried to follow the industry norm of bundling to help with that pricing.  And again, value is a personal opinion, but I don't believe we are priced out of line with the competition and typically bring an even better performance for a similar price. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 27, 2017, 05:00:09 pm
I couldn't be happier with my RTB2004.  As has been said repeatedly, the promo deal was a no brainer.
:-+

As for R&S - their previous attempt to get Dave to pull hacking info on an outdated product from the forum appears to mean they are taking a harder line.  Perhaps that will change.  I almost wonder if their screaming good no-brainer promotional deal on the RTB2004 (at least for the US market) was an attempt to put fully loaded scopes in the hands of earlier adopters who might otherwise be tempted to investigate the hacking possibilities...
No ulterior motives - we honestly wanted to get the product in to the hands of early adopters.  And for those early adopters we have some other cool ideas planned - stay tuned  ;D

With respect to the hacking - not my place to bless or not bless the activity, but as you said, you own the equipment.  Each person/company will make their own decisions based on that.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on May 27, 2017, 05:09:54 pm
I couldn't be happier with my RTB2004.  As has been said repeatedly, the promo deal was a no brainer.
:-+

As for R&S - their previous attempt to get Dave to pull hacking info on an outdated product from the forum appears to mean they are taking a harder line.  Perhaps that will change.  I almost wonder if their screaming good no-brainer promotional deal on the RTB2004 (at least for the US market) was an attempt to put fully loaded scopes in the hands of earlier adopters who might otherwise be tempted to investigate the hacking possibilities...
No ulterior motives - we honestly wanted to get the product in to the hands of early adopters.  And for those early adopters we have some other cool ideas planned - stay tuned  ;D

With respect to the hacking - not my place to bless or not bless the activity, but as you said, you own the equipment.  Each person/company will make their own decisions based on that.

-Rich

 :-+  It's great to see R&S fully engaged with hobbyists and home-use professionals.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on May 27, 2017, 05:42:42 pm
Rich, is there anything being looked at to make these (expensive for hobbyists, as you admit) decode options better? I'm mainly thinking of the bi-directional UART/SPI decode without using both decode slots, which can be a bit limiting.

This is not a dig at the RTB2k - it's clear that every brand has their advantages (e.g. KS for faster and more consistent update rate, better math options, R&S for screen size, resolution and memory depth) and I'm very happy with my launch offer unit, especially with the mention that more goodies may be yet to come!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 27, 2017, 05:47:23 pm
Rich, is there anything being looked at to make these (expensive for hobbyists, as you admit) decode options better? I'm mainly thinking of the bi-directional UART/SPI decode without using both decode slots, which can be a bit limiting.

This is not a dig at the RTB2k - it's clear that every brand has their advantages (e.g. KS for faster and more consistent update rate, better math options, R&S for screen size, resolution and memory depth) and I'm very happy with my launch offer unit, especially with the mention that more goodies may be yet to come!
Hi Hydron - there are things being looked at, but it isn't something I can promise at this point for the RTB2000.  But the excellent feedback from folks like you, Robaroni, MikesElectricStuff, MJLorton, WattCircuit, etc, etc (sorry I am forgetting many people) has been very helpful and will certainly help shape future enhancements for the RTB and other products.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 27, 2017, 06:27:32 pm
So are our options expensive?  Maybe.  But we've certainly tried to follow the industry norm of bundling to help with that pricing.  And again, value is a personal opinion, but I don't believe we are priced out of line with the competition and typically bring an even better performance for a similar price. 
But now you are putting a B brand Hameg scope next to A brand scopes from Keysight, Tektronix & Lecroy and try to justify the very high price. But on what is that based??? For example: If you buy the MSO option for Keysight, Lecroy, Tektronix (*) you get a well built probe and not a flimsy hobby-Bob ribbon cable. Also Keysight (>3000 series), Lecroy and Tektronix have a large portfolio with probing solutions. For example: a couple of years ago I bought a Tektronix scope + current probe for a customer where the current probe was more expensive than the scope itself. And lets not forget to look east and see what the Asian TE brands are coming up with nowadays.

If I look at the RTB2000 it sits somewhere between Rigol/Siglent and Keysight/Lecroy/Tektronix and should be priced accordingly. It makes no sense to buy a B brand if the same money buys an A brand.

* For completeness: also GW Instek, Rigol and Siglent.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 27, 2017, 06:50:43 pm
So are our options expensive?  Maybe.  But we've certainly tried to follow the industry norm of bundling to help with that pricing.  And again, value is a personal opinion, but I don't believe we are priced out of line with the competition and typically bring an even better performance for a similar price. 
But now you are putting a B brand Hameg scope next to A brand scopes from Keysight, Tektronix & Lecroy and try to justify the very high price. But on what is that based??? For example: If you buy the MSO option for Keysight, Lecroy, Tektronix (*) you get a well built probe and not a flimsy hobby-Bob ribbon cable. Also Keysight (>3000 series), Lecroy and Tektronix have a large portfolio with probing solutions. For example: a couple of years ago I bought a Tektronix scope + current probe for a customer where the current probe was more expensive than the scope itself. And lets not forget to look east and see what the Asian TE brands are coming up with nowadays.

If I look at the RTB2000 it sits somewhere between Rigol/Siglent and Keysight/Lecroy/Tektronix and should be priced accordingly. It makes no sense to buy a B brand if the same money buys an A brand.

* For completeness: also GW Instek, Rigol and Siglent.
*On my soapbox*
Waste of time for me to reply to you on this, but you don't have any clue what you are talking about.  R&S has been in business longer than any of the brands you mention above, even HP.  The RTB2000 is a R&S product through and through - using R&S designed ASICs, new SW, etc.  Is the Hameg team involved?  Yep.  But they made great scopes before and now they have the full benefit of the R&S legacy to work with (not to mention groups from both teams worked on this, including people that have designed some of the highest performing RF gear in the world). 

And to your point about Rigol/Siglent/GW/Hantek/whomever - I have no problems with them.  But they aren't innovators.  You might complain that we (Tek/Keysight/LeCroy/R&S) charge a lot for our options, but that helps to fund true product innovation.  R&S was the first company to bring 1M wfms/s to market, the first with a digital trigger, the first with a reasonably priced 10-bit ADC, the first with graticule markings, etc, etc.  I could go on and on for Tek/Keysight/LeCroy too.  All have had many firsts (where you do you think your serial decode and triggering came from - not the "B Brands").  Eventually those things may be copied by the "B Brands" and people will benefit when they buy them at cheap prices.  But don't confuse copying with true product innovation (and I'll admit - price engineering is an innovation, but it would be a sad day if that was the only place people innovated - you'd never see anything new).

So keep trolling the Tek/Keysight/LeCroy/R&S threads  :-DD

*Off my soapbox.*

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 27, 2017, 07:06:26 pm
Well every manufacturer claims to 'be the first' with something like they invented the wheel. A lot of wheels have been invented over the decades! Besides that it is not like innovation only happens at A-brand companies. Look at how GW Instek and Siglent leverage new FPGA technology in their products.

But in the end what counts is what you get for your money TODAY. If you want to charge the same like current Keysight & Tektronix offerings it has to be just as polished and that is what is missing on the RTB2000.

edit: by playing the troll card you just admit I'm right.  :box:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on May 27, 2017, 07:09:37 pm
If you want to charge the same like current Keysight & Tektronix offerings it has to be just as polished and that is what is missing on the RTB2000.

That is a matter of opinion of course. :box:

Current Tektronix offerings in this category have some serious shortcomings IMHO.  Current Keysight offerings have some advantages but also some shortcomings as has been pointed out by several people.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on May 27, 2017, 07:37:55 pm
Current Tektronix offerings in this category have some serious shortcomings IMHO.  Current Keysight offerings have some advantages but also some shortcomings as has been pointed out by several people.

Exactly, modern DSO/MSO's have so many functions that comparing them without specifying needs is almost impossible, and each of the brands/models will fit someone's needs.
Market will eventually show us what brands will fill most of the needs, like it has always been.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on May 27, 2017, 08:28:11 pm
Different companies likely view the hacking differently.  If you read between the lines, it seems pretty clear that Chinese companies such as Rigol and Siglent give their tacit approval and may even count on it in their product development and pricing. 
Put Rigol in that basket for sure but not Siglent.  :P
Numerous FW releases have attempted to close avenues for hacking in Siglent products however once users get a taste for the goodies liberated their efforts redouble to get them back again.

The recent release of the X-E is another example of Siglent's reluctance to widespread hacking.
The KS 1kX had just been released and Dave promptly sniffed the jtag to see what was possible with it.
The X-E was to be released in 70, 100 and 200 MHz versions, one watch of what Dave did on his teardown and all X-E's were then released as only 200 MHz models.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 27, 2017, 09:06:42 pm
Different companies likely view the hacking differently.  If you read between the lines, it seems pretty clear that Chinese companies such as Rigol and Siglent give their tacit approval and may even count on it in their product development and pricing. 
Put Rigol in that basket for sure but not Siglent.  :P
Numerous FW releases have attempted to close avenues for hacking in Siglent products however once users get a taste for the goodies liberated their efforts redouble to get them back again.
But you have to admit it does help sales a lot! If Siglent was really making an effort to close the holes in the SSA3000 and SDG2000 they would have done it by now.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on May 27, 2017, 09:20:56 pm
Different companies likely view the hacking differently.  If you read between the lines, it seems pretty clear that Chinese companies such as Rigol and Siglent give their tacit approval and may even count on it in their product development and pricing. 
Put Rigol in that basket for sure but not Siglent.  :P
Numerous FW releases have attempted to close avenues for hacking in Siglent products however once users get a taste for the goodies liberated their efforts redouble to get them back again.
But you have to admit it does help sales a lot! If Siglent was really making an effort to close the holes in the SSA3000 and SDG2000 they would have done it by now.
Those 2 series ^ are exactly the ones that have had a few attempts to close the gate.
Very few of my sales are to customers that want or have the need to hack them AFAIK.
I don't have a problem if owners want to hack stuff...........how on earth would you stop them anyway.  :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on May 27, 2017, 09:41:32 pm

*On my soapbox*
Waste of time for me to reply to you on this, but you don't have any clue what you are talking about.  R&S has been in business longer than any of the brands you mention above, even HP.  The RTB2000 is a R&S product through and through - using R&S designed ASICs, new SW, etc.  Is the Hameg team involved?  Yep.  But they made great scopes before and now they have the full benefit of the R&S legacy to work with (not to mention groups from both teams worked on this, including people that have designed some of the highest performing RF gear in the world). 

And to your point about Rigol/Siglent/GW/Hantek/whomever - I have no problems with them.  But they aren't innovators.  You might complain that we (Tek/Keysight/LeCroy/R&S) charge a lot for our options, but that helps to fund true product innovation.  R&S was the first company to bring 1M wfms/s to market, the first with a digital trigger, the first with a reasonably priced 10-bit ADC, the first with graticule markings, etc, etc.  I could go on and on for Tek/Keysight/LeCroy too.  All have had many firsts (where you do you think your serial decode and triggering came from - not the "B Brands").  Eventually those things may be copied by the "B Brands" and people will benefit when they buy them at cheap prices.  But don't confuse copying with true product innovation (and I'll admit - price engineering is an innovation, but it would be a sad day if that was the only place people innovated - you'd never see anything new).

So keep trolling the Tek/Keysight/LeCroy/R&S threads  :-DD

*Off my soapbox.*

-Rich

Rich,

I appreciate your candor, although I'm sure many will find it arrogant.... But it does show exactly what I have problem with: apparently there exist premium brands club that seems to think they are above the market rules.... You seem to confuse certain terms, and also what you are talking about... Big brands are comparing products between themselves, position them on market, and do all kinds of strategic things in their fight for market position... So some of the thinking seeps into vocabulary of people that should deal with customers... And there is a complete disconnect...

And since you were honest so will I be.. And blunt, maybe...

Customers don't care what do you think, and how great you think your equipment is... In one hand they have a list of specs that instrument should be able to do for them to do their job. In other hand they have small paper with budget. They also have certain expectations for support structure. If they find instrument that fills the need for half the price, they will go for it.

B- brands are eating into your market from lover end... And slowly getting better and better.. For many people they might just be good enough, for simple things they do..
Not everybody does signal integrity checks on USB3 bus.. And RTB series is not for that market either..
Your company actually own the brand that was ONLY high quality affordable alternative to them (HAMEG) and then you increased prices...
Which is OK, it is corporate decision to work on higher profit products.. That is fine, it's company's prerogative..

But then you go off the cliff with whining about glorious past, and innovation, and how customers disrespect you comparing your products with others you consider unworthy...
Yeah, tough luck... We don't care...

It goes like this:

1. There were many great companies that went bust because they did mistakes.. They were well respected but they misread market and didn't sell enough. They don't exist anymore and nobody cares.. Welcome to capitalism.

2. Innovation... LOL, I love when marketing goes crazy with a phrase and think that it means something to us... Quick explanation: It is called R&D, research and development of new products that are hopefully better or somehow more desirable than products from competition..
It is not something that makes you special. It is normal part of how market works (again, capitalism) and it is COST OF BUSINESS. YOUR cost of business.

3. If somebody stole your trade secrets, patents etc, by all means sue them. That's stealing.
Whining " we were the first to do this and that.."  is just pathetic. Well, you're not anymore.. And aren't you ashamed that you're making Mixed signal scope... Because that innovation came from HP if I remember right, not R&S or HAMEG.. In that regard you're same as chinese brands..

But wait, you didn't steal from HP. Your company "got inspiration" from their idea, and developed their own platform, with lot of hard work... And did fantastic, commendable job.
And nobody said that Hameg "stole the idea". They were ecstatic they will be able to afford great instrument..
If Chinese companies stole your code that's stealing. But if they "got inspired" by your products, and then did their own honest R/D work, and made a product based on their own hard work, you can't complain. It it is what all companies do. It is what your company does. Unless it is ok for German or USA company to do so, only Chinese can't do it.... ??? Double standards ??

Again I have great respect for your company, I own Hameg equipment, and would like to be able to own more... But it's not very likely with current pricing policy, sorry..

Best regards,

Sinisa

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 27, 2017, 09:54:08 pm

*On my soapbox*
Waste of time for me to reply to you on this, but you don't have any clue what you are talking about.  R&S has been in business longer than any of the brands you mention above, even HP.  The RTB2000 is a R&S product through and through - using R&S designed ASICs, new SW, etc.  Is the Hameg team involved?  Yep.  But they made great scopes before and now they have the full benefit of the R&S legacy to work with (not to mention groups from both teams worked on this, including people that have designed some of the highest performing RF gear in the world). 

And to your point about Rigol/Siglent/GW/Hantek/whomever - I have no problems with them.  But they aren't innovators.  You might complain that we (Tek/Keysight/LeCroy/R&S) charge a lot for our options, but that helps to fund true product innovation.  R&S was the first company to bring 1M wfms/s to market, the first with a digital trigger, the first with a reasonably priced 10-bit ADC, the first with graticule markings, etc, etc.  I could go on and on for Tek/Keysight/LeCroy too.  All have had many firsts (where you do you think your serial decode and triggering came from - not the "B Brands").  Eventually those things may be copied by the "B Brands" and people will benefit when they buy them at cheap prices.  But don't confuse copying with true product innovation (and I'll admit - price engineering is an innovation, but it would be a sad day if that was the only place people innovated - you'd never see anything new).

So keep trolling the Tek/Keysight/LeCroy/R&S threads  :-DD

*Off my soapbox.*

-Rich

Rich,

I appreciate your candor, although I'm sure many will find it arrogant.... But it does show exactly what I have problem with: apparently there exist premium brands club that seems to think they are above the market rules.... You seem to confuse certain terms, and also what you are talking about... Big brands are comparing products between themselves, position them on market, and do all kinds of strategic things in their fight for market position... So some of the thinking seeps into vocabulary of people that should deal with customers... And there is a complete disconnect...

And since you were honest so will I be.. And blunt, maybe...

Customers don't care what do you think, and how great you think your equipment is... In one hand they have a list of specs that instrument should be able to do for them to do their job. In other hand they have small paper with budget. They also have certain expectations for support structure. If they find instrument that fills the need for half the price, they will go for it.

B- brands are eating into your market from lover end... And slowly getting better and better.. For many people they might just be good enough, for simple things they do..
Not everybody does signal integrity checks on USB3 bus.. And RTB series is not for that market either..
Your company actually own the brand that was ONLY high quality affordable alternative to them (HAMEG) and then you increased prices...
Which is OK, it is corporate decision to work on higher profit products.. That is fine, it's company's prerogative..

But then you go off the cliff with whining about glorious past, and innovation, and how customers disrespect you comparing your products with others you consider unworthy...
Yeah, tough luck... We don't care...

It goes like this:

1. There were many great companies that went bust because they did mistakes.. They were well respected but they misread market and didn't sell enough. They don't exist anymore and nobody cares.. Welcome to capitalism.

2. Innovation... LOL, I love when marketing goes crazy with a phrase and think that it means something to us... Quick explanation: It is called R&D, research and development of new products that are hopefully better or somehow more desirable than products from competition..
It is not something that makes you special. It is normal part of how market works (again, capitalism) and it is COST OF BUSINESS. YOUR cost of business.

3. If somebody stole your trade secrets, patents etc, by all means sue them. That's stealing.
Whining " we were the first to do this and that.."  is just pathetic. Well, you're not anymore.. And aren't you ashamed that you're making Mixed signal scope... Because that innovation came from HP if I remember right, not R&S or HAMEG.. In that regard you're same as chinese brands..

But wait, you didn't steal from HP. Your company "got inspiration" from their idea, and developed their own platform, with lot of hard work... And did fantastic, commendable job.
And nobody said that Hameg "stole the idea". They were ecstatic they will be able to afford great instrument..
If Chinese companies stole your code that's stealing. But if they "got inspired" by your products, and then did their own honest R/D work, and made a product based on their own hard work, you can't complain. It it is what all companies do. It is what your company does. Unless it is ok for German or USA company to do so, only Chinese can't do it.... ??? Double standards ??

Again I have great respect for your company, I own Hameg equipment, and would like to be able to own more... But it's not very likely with current pricing policy, sorry..

Best regards,

Sinisa
Hi Sinisa,

First, I appreciate your reply and I didn't mean to come off arrogant.  I apologize if I did.  Believe me, in my 16 years in scopes, I've always been coming from a non market leader position, so I know there are lots of options out there (which is a great thing).  It's also why I said I have nothing against the "B Brands" (BTW - note I used quotes on that every time - not my words).  I think Rigol/Siglent/GW etc make some great products. 

Second, my point (which may have been lost in the long reply) was to nctnico - I've been on the this forum for a very long time (since before Agilent ever sent an x-series to Dave Jones - over seven years).  Sometimes things are lost in what is typed and I typically give people the benefit of the doubt that it didn't come across right.  But I've seen nctnico for some time and because of what I've seen I didn't give him the benefit of the doubt and explained why things are priced like they are, especially for companies like us or Tek/Keysight/LeCroy.  Perhaps I should have given him the benefit of the doubt.  My point in saying "we did this first" or "they did that first" is we are all working to innovate (so I wanted to give some examples).  The benefit is it trickles down.  But innovation costs money.  Hence my reply.

In the end, you are absolutely right, the customer determines the value of anything.  Clearly not every product is perfect and one may be a better fit for someone than another.  I just took offense to nctnico implying we make a lower quality/lower capability product than others.  Definitely wasn't trying to be arrogant.

-Rich

Edit - I also didn't mean to imply that other products aren't worthy.  That wasn't my intention, but looks like it came off that way.  My point in comparing to the Tek or Keysight was to help explain some of the pricing misperceptions people may have had on the RTB - it's actually priced quite competitive to the products we are targeting.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on May 27, 2017, 10:33:00 pm

Hi Sinisa,

First, I appreciate your reply and I didn't mean to come off arrogant.  I apologize if I did.  Believe me, in my 16 years in scopes, I've always been coming from a non market leader position, so I know there are lots of options out there (which is a great thing).  It's also why I said I have nothing against the "B Brands" (BTW - note I used quotes on that every time - not my words).  I think Rigol/Siglent/GW etc make some great products. 

Second, my point (which may have been lost in the long reply) was to nctnico - I've been on the this forum for a very long time (since before Agilent ever sent an x-series to Dave Jones - over seven years).  Sometimes things are lost in what is typed and I typically give people the benefit of the doubt that it didn't come across right.  But I've seen nctnico for some time and because of what I've seen I didn't give him the benefit of the doubt and explained why things are priced like they are, especially for companies like us or Tek/Keysight/LeCroy.  Perhaps I should have given him the benefit of the doubt.  My point in saying "we did this first" or "they did that first" is we are all working to innovate (so I wanted to give some examples).  The benefit is it trickles down.  But innovation costs money.  Hence my reply.

In the end, you are absolutely right, the customer determines the value of anything.  Clearly not every product is perfect and one may be a better fit for someone than another.  I just took offense to nctnico implying we make a lower quality/lower capability product than others.  Definitely wasn't trying to be arrogant.

-Rich

Edit - I also didn't mean to imply that other products aren't worthy.  That wasn't my intention, but looks like it came off that way.  My point in comparing to the Tek or Keysight was to help explain some of the pricing misperceptions people may have had on the RTB - it's actually priced quite competitive to the products we are targeting.

Rich,

I also would like to clarify, I addressed my message "through" you to your bosses, not to you.. You seem to be very nice person, and I also understand your frustration.  It's not easy to please everybody.. Working with people is hard..
Also, I wrote message out of good intentions, to , sort of, warn you how it might have sounded. I didn't really mean to criticize anybody, more of a mail to clarify and defuse situation by pointing facts,  and not who said what.  I'm really glad you understood.  :-+

I actually have a preference for R&S/HAMEG.. I'm from Europe and had more exposure to it.. 

Best regards Rich

Sinisa
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on May 27, 2017, 11:14:26 pm
Please don't hijack this thread with hacking talk.
The thread is big enough as it is.
By all means take it to another thread if you want.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on May 27, 2017, 11:17:31 pm
My point in comparing to the Tek or Keysight was to help explain some of the pricing misperceptions people may have had on the RTB - it's actually priced quite competitive to the products we are targeting.

Yes. R&S aren't trying to compete with the lesser brands.
Perhaps it's fair to compare the R&S RTB2002 to the Owon 14bit touch screen model  ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 27, 2017, 11:26:17 pm
OK Dave, fair enough.
Sorry for the drift, just a sore point after having it happen to me.
Rob
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on May 28, 2017, 01:17:57 pm
Yes. R&S aren't trying to compete with the lesser brands.
Perhaps it's fair to compare the R&S RTB2002 to the Owon 14bit touch screen model  ;D

 I know it´s not an OWON thread. But setting the ADC resolution on the Owon down to 12bit increases the Samplerate while memory and acquisition time stays the same. This looks like they were using just a HighRes-Mode. So it should only be calculated 14Bit value ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on May 30, 2017, 07:08:25 am
If I look at the RTB2000 it sits somewhere between Rigol/Siglent and Keysight/Lecroy/Tektronix and should be priced accordingly. It makes no sense to buy a B brand if the same money buys an A brand.

For the RTB2004? *lol* That is ridiculous.
I don't know, where you got the impression, that the RTB2004 is a "Hameg" scope, imo it is not. It is a decent R&S scope.
And it plays definitly not in the league as Rigol or Siglent, it plays higher.

Or can you pint me to a scope from these Companies, which can do:
- 4 analog inputs
- 10 bit ADC
- 10" High Res screen
- 300MHz
- MSO

No?
That's a pity ....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on May 30, 2017, 07:42:33 am
If I look at the RTB2000 it sits somewhere between Rigol/Siglent and Keysight/Lecroy/Tektronix and should be priced accordingly. It makes no sense to buy a B brand if the same money buys an A brand.

For the RTB2004? *lol* That is ridiculous.
I don't know, where you got the impression, that the RTB2004 is a "Hameg" scope, imo it is not. It is a decent R&S scope.
And it plays definitly not in the league as Rigol or Siglent, it plays higher.

Or can you pint me to a scope from these Companies, which can do:
- 4 analog inputs
- 10 bit ADC
- 10" High Res screen
- 300MHz
- MSO

No?
That's a pity ....
Siglent get close with SDS2304X and leave the rest behind with 140 Mpts memory depth.
That's for western markets ^ in the east there's SDS3000 models with 10" display, 4 Gsa/s and up to 1 GHz but sold as LeCroy WS3000 in the western markets.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 30, 2017, 08:00:49 am
If I look at the RTB2000 it sits somewhere between Rigol/Siglent and Keysight/Lecroy/Tektronix and should be priced accordingly. It makes no sense to buy a B brand if the same money buys an A brand.

For the RTB2004? *lol* That is ridiculous.
I don't know, where you got the impression, that the RTB2004 is a "Hameg" scope, imo it is not. It is a decent R&S scope.
And it plays definitly not in the league as Rigol or Siglent, it plays higher.
I highlighted the words you obviously missed. Also 10bits doesn't do you any good if you can't utilise them. As I already wrote in the 14 bit Owon unboxing video thread: 10 bit would be great if you can lock the front-end division factor and digitally zoom in vertically when in run mode to avoid overdrive effects and when using input filtering (not available on the RTB2004) to isolate small signals from a large signal.

As Tautech noted Lecroy has the Wavesurfer 3000 in this segment. Also compared to the RTB2004 the GW Instek MSO2000AE series offers a similary complete package for considerably less money.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 30, 2017, 11:46:04 am
If I look at the RTB2000 it sits somewhere between Rigol/Siglent and Keysight/Lecroy/Tektronix and should be priced accordingly. It makes no sense to buy a B brand if the same money buys an A brand.

For the RTB2004? *lol* That is ridiculous.
I don't know, where you got the impression, that the RTB2004 is a "Hameg" scope, imo it is not. It is a decent R&S scope.
And it plays definitly not in the league as Rigol or Siglent, it plays higher.

Or can you pint me to a scope from these Companies, which can do:
- 4 analog inputs
- 10 bit ADC
- 10" High Res screen
- 300MHz
- MSO

No?
That's a pity ....
Siglent get close with SDS2304X and leave the rest behind with 140 Mpts memory depth.
That's for western markets ^ in the east there's SDS3000 models with 10" display, 4 Gsa/s and up to 1 GHz but sold as LeCroy WS3000 in the western markets.

What's the MTBF of the Siglent? Build quality? How's resale compared to R&S? Personally I think the R&S is a lot more polished with a nicer layout and the fan noise is much lower - I won't tolerate noisy instruments, it's a deal killer for me. Didn't Dave say you could hear the fan bearings in the Siglent?

I will pay more for Tek, Agilent, R&S, etc. because I know their instrument philosophy. They're known for quality and year after year these instruments perform. I've bought chips for Tek scopes 15 years after their introduction, will Siglent be around in 15 years? Will they still have parts inventories?

Lots of cost factors, I've found just going by the purchase price doesn't tell the whole story - penny wise dollar foolish-.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on May 30, 2017, 06:03:32 pm
Youtube did it again and "recommended" me another video about the RTB2004. This time an unboxing video of a guy you snatched a launch edition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AszjS_uf7GE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AszjS_uf7GE)

He also own an Rigol MSO1104z and did a comparison
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeDrYgf8eIE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeDrYgf8eIE)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Augustus on May 30, 2017, 06:25:27 pm
Die he show all the license keys?  :o
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on May 30, 2017, 06:34:40 pm
Die he show all the license keys?  :o

So what? It only works on his scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 30, 2017, 07:21:17 pm
Die he show all the license keys?  :o
So what? It only works on his scope.
It can be used as input for determining the algorithm used to generate the keys and liberate the options.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on May 30, 2017, 07:48:43 pm
It can be used as input for determining the algorithm used to generate the keys and liberate the options.

Yes, so nothing but good news here :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on May 30, 2017, 07:58:22 pm
He has a second one comparing to the Rigol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OkIM1XVAsQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OkIM1XVAsQ)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on May 30, 2017, 08:12:08 pm
What's the MTBF of the Siglent? Build quality? How's resale compared to R&S? Personally I think the R&S is a lot more polished with a nicer layout and the fan noise is much lower - I won't tolerate noisy instruments, it's a deal killer for me. Didn't Dave say you could hear the fan bearings in the Siglent?

I will pay more for Tek, Agilent, R&S, etc. because I know their instrument philosophy. They're known for quality and year after year these instruments perform. I've bought chips for Tek scopes 15 years after their introduction, will Siglent be around in 15 years? Will they still have parts inventories?

Lots of cost factors, I've found just going by the purchase price doesn't tell the whole story - penny wise dollar foolish-.
This is not the right thread to examine your points/claims in detail other than to say that all scopes are going the way of mass produced consumer items where little repair is done at board level. Product failures are rare, build quality as good as anything else and I've seen more fan replacement threads for old Teks than any other brand but no brand is immune to them.
We all think the new kid on the block MUST have something suspect about it but to gain traction in this market and develop any reputation they need do things right.
Without this competition how much would you be paying for the A brands ?  :scared:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 30, 2017, 08:39:07 pm
What's the MTBF of the Siglent? Build quality? How's resale compared to R&S? Personally I think the R&S is a lot more polished with a nicer layout and the fan noise is much lower - I won't tolerate noisy instruments, it's a deal killer for me. Didn't Dave say you could hear the fan bearings in the Siglent?

I will pay more for Tek, Agilent, R&S, etc. because I know their instrument philosophy. They're known for quality and year after year these instruments perform. I've bought chips for Tek scopes 15 years after their introduction, will Siglent be around in 15 years? Will they still have parts inventories?

Lots of cost factors, I've found just going by the purchase price doesn't tell the whole story - penny wise dollar foolish-.
This is not the right thread to examine your points/claims in detail other than to say that all scopes are going the way of mass produced consumer items where little repair is done at board level. Product failures are rare, build quality as good as anything else and I've seen more fan replacement threads for old Teks than any other brand but no brand is immune to them.
We all think the new kid on the block MUST have something suspect about it but to gain traction in this market and develop any reputation they need do things right.
Without this competition how much would you be paying for the A brands ?  :scared:

I didn't bring up the price comparison, I just replied to it with my views.

Key word is "old" Teks.

I don't think that at all, I'm the one who said that the real hero is AD and other chip makers that these scopes all use -check some of my statements. R&S just did a great job of bringing this to market in an especially well thought out package.

I'm among those stupid people who buy high end scopes because they've done so well in their field that they can buy whatever they want. If China didn't exist it wouldn't change my buying habits one iota.

Do I think the R&S was a great value at the price I paid for it? Sure but I probably would have bought it anyway without some of the options I don't use. I like the scope and I like the company.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 30, 2017, 10:58:14 pm
I'm among those stupid people who buy high end scopes because they've done so well in their field that they can buy whatever they want.
Ofcourse it is nice if you don't have to care about budget or ROI (return on investment) but most of us do. You can buy about three B-brand scopes for the price of one A-brand scope. With carefull selection you can avoid the lemons and still save quite a bit of money and/or upgrade to the latest technology / bells & whistles much sooner. With the fast pace technology is moving forward it is just not realistic to think a scope is still up-to-date after 5 years. Over the past decade I have owned my oscilloscopes for about two years on average.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on May 31, 2017, 08:04:23 am
Over the past decade I have owned my oscilloscopes for about two years on average.
I used your quote as an opportunity to make my own list. Indeed since 2006 I had 8 scopes  :wtf:
If I count out three scopes
1) the nightmarish crappy Owon in 2007 (I switched in on and played with it for maybe 5 minutes - then it was placed on Ebay immediately and was luckily sold quickly)
2) the analog Tek scope which I had from 2000 until 2010 and which was kept as a second scope for a long time
3) the mistakenly purchased Keysight DSOX2004 scope (sold immediately after arrival and replaced by a 3000 series scope)
it is two years in average here too.
I guess now it is time for a new scope for keeping the pace  :)

Well if Rohde and Schwarz adds crucial functionality to the next firmware (like bidirectional serial decoders, more trigger options, more advanced math options for just naming three areas) and pay attention to some details (already addressed in this and the other R&S thread) there will be a RTB2004 soon on my bench .... otherwise I will keep my Keysight MSOX3024 - as the crippled RTB2004 with often less functionality as low cost China stuff is of no interest for me. Touchscreen / UI / fast boot time and 10 bit are nice - but math and triggers are essential - there is no excuse this is missing in a >7000 Euro scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Harb on May 31, 2017, 10:14:03 am
Yep, I have decided to wait and see what the next firmware adds to the scope........ it will be interesting.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 31, 2017, 01:16:24 pm
I'm among those stupid people who buy high end scopes because they've done so well in their field that they can buy whatever they want.
Ofcourse it is nice if you don't have to care about budget or ROI (return on investment) but most of us do. You can buy about three B-brand scopes for the price of one A-brand scope. With carefull selection you can avoid the lemons and still save quite a bit of money and/or upgrade to the latest technology / bells & whistles much sooner. With the fast pace technology is moving forward it is just not realistic to think a scope is still up-to-date after 5 years. Over the past decade I have owned my oscilloscopes for about two years on average.

OK I'll bite what's changing so much in two years that you have to update your scope? What kind of ROI is that?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 31, 2017, 01:21:56 pm
There are new features becoming available all the time. For one of my projects input filtering and deep memory where extremely handy so I got a scope which has those features. I'm not keeping my old scopes so money isn't sitting on a shelve devaluating.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 31, 2017, 01:30:36 pm
Over the past decade I have owned my oscilloscopes for about two years on average.
I used your quote as an opportunity to make my own list. Indeed since 2006 I had 8 scopes  :wtf:
If I count out three scopes
1) the nightmarish crappy Owon in 2007 (I switched in on and played with it for maybe 5 minutes - then it was placed on Ebay immediately and was luckily sold quickly)
2) the analog Tek scope which I had from 2000 until 2010 and which was kept as a second scope for a long time
3) the mistakenly purchased Keysight DSOX2004 scope (sold immediately after arrival and replaced by a 3000 series scope)
it is two years in average here too.
I guess now it is time for a new scope for keeping the pace  :)

Well if Rohde and Schwarz adds crucial functionality to the next firmware (like bidirectional serial decoders, more trigger options, more advanced math options for just naming three areas) and pay attention to some details (already addressed in this and the other R&S thread) there will be a RTB2004 soon on my bench .... otherwise I will keep my Keysight MSOX3024 - as the crippled RTB2004 with often less functionality as low cost China stuff is of no interest for me. Touchscreen / UI / fast boot time and 10 bit are nice - but math and triggers are essential - there is no excuse this is missing in a >7000 Euro scope.

Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.

So, let's see, I spent less for my RTB2004 than you have so far - gee how will I ever cope with such a "crippled" useless scope? I guess I'll just have to make do, poor me....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 31, 2017, 01:36:19 pm
There are new features becoming available all the time. For one of my projects input filtering and deep memory where extremely handy so I got a scope which has those features. I'm not keeping my old scopes so money isn't sitting on a shelve devaluating.

One project? So you couldn't have done it without a new scope?

You bought a scope you kept a couple of years then sold at a loss, you already lost money. Whats the ROI?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 31, 2017, 02:08:36 pm
There are new features becoming available all the time. For one of my projects input filtering and deep memory where extremely handy so I got a scope which has those features. I'm not keeping my old scopes so money isn't sitting on a shelve devaluating.

One project? So you couldn't have done it without a new scope?

You bought a scope you kept a couple of years then sold at a loss, you already lost money. Whats the ROI?
I design circuits for a living and for that I need tools. Remember: you need to spend money to make money. As long as the write-off on equipment is far less than the profits (in terms of time saved and/or enable to take on a project) there is no problem losing money on test equipment. I always say test equipment devaluates faster than a car and my buying strategy is adjusted accordingly.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on May 31, 2017, 02:18:18 pm
There are new features becoming available all the time. For one of my projects input filtering and deep memory where extremely handy so I got a scope which has those features. I'm not keeping my old scopes so money isn't sitting on a shelve devaluating.

One project? So you couldn't have done it without a new scope?

You bought a scope you kept a couple of years then sold at a loss, you already lost money. Whats the ROI?
I design circuits for a living and for that I need tools. Remember: you need to spend money to make money. As long as the write-off on equipment is far less than the profits (in terms of time saved and/or enable to take on a project) there is no problem losing money on test equipment. I always say test equipment devaluates faster than a car and my buying strategy is adjusted accordingly.

Good thinking - keep telling yourself that. 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on May 31, 2017, 02:45:27 pm
Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.
Well, yes at least definitely the Owon.

The other scopes were not. To be honest: many years ago I was not ready to spend a few thousand bucks for a scope. My demands grew with my projects and as I am making money with these projects I was able to purchase better scopes which fulfil my needs better for more sophisticated projects.
As I always purchased with a discount and sold the equipment later often with profit, I could easily afford that approach. In fact any scope I purchased was purchased at least 15% below street price. I am sure I can sell my Keysight MSOX3024a any day and I will receive at least what I paid for - probably even more. So I used it literally "for free" for the last 30 month.
Thus my measurement equipment was growing with my requirements - and I frequently had newer technology at my hand - for almost no cost.
(btw: thats the positive by selecting measurement devices from respected brands: they do have a low loss of value over the time)

In retrospect: would I prefer the other alternative?
Purchasing a scope years ago which probably fulfil my needs for the next 10 years? No! That will be expensive and in reality I would start looking for new stuff after a few years anyway because something will be missing.

As I said: as I work for a living, this approach (at least for me) was the better way: I purchase what I need now and tomorrow and sell it if it does not fulfil my needs anymore to get newer and better stuff.

Note: the above applies to business related stuff. For consumer stuff for private usage this is much different. So you better purchase the best amplifier and/or speaker or camera etc. you can afford. Because then you enjoy right from the beginning. It just don't make sense to buy e.g. crappy speakers and buy new less-crappy speakers a few years later until you then end with good speakers after 20 years: you just lost 20 years with crappy stuff, paid much more at the end and you will regret you did not took the good stuff right from the beginning.

Edit: because I really was curious and wanted to know, I added up all my scope purchases and sellings (including all costs such as shipping and Ebay fees) from 2007. I did not count in the analog scope I already had before and also not the current Keysight. Result: I made 328 Euro profit between 2007 and 2015. Thus, a frequent update of some gear might even earn you money if you carefully select.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 31, 2017, 03:25:23 pm
Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.

So, let's see, I spent less for my RTB2004 than you have so far - gee how will I ever cope with such a "crippled" useless scope? I guess I'll just have to make do, poor me....
That is not a fair comparison since you bought the RTB2004 for a very very special price. Normally that configuration costs over 3 times more.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nowlan on June 01, 2017, 11:22:02 am
Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.

So, let's see, I spent less for my RTB2004 than you have so far - gee how will I ever cope with such a "crippled" useless scope? I guess I'll just have to make do, poor me....
That is not a fair comparison since you bought the RTB2004 for a very very special price. Normally that configuration costs over 3 times more.
This! this was a loss leading exercise, that people can no longer get, nor could they outside usa.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on June 01, 2017, 12:29:07 pm
Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.
Well, yes at least definitely the Owon.

The other scopes were not. To be honest: many years ago I was not ready to spend a few thousand bucks for a scope. My demands grew with my projects and as I am making money with these projects I was able to purchase better scopes which fulfil my needs better for more sophisticated projects.
As I always purchased with a discount and sold the equipment later often with profit, I could easily afford that approach. In fact any scope I purchased was purchased at least 15% below street price. I am sure I can sell my Keysight MSOX3024a any day and I will receive at least what I paid for - probably even more. So I used it literally "for free" for the last 30 month.
Thus my measurement equipment was growing with my requirements - and I frequently had newer technology at my hand - for almost no cost.
(btw: thats the positive by selecting measurement devices from respected brands: they do have a low loss of value over the time)

In retrospect: would I prefer the other alternative?
Purchasing a scope years ago which probably fulfil my needs for the next 10 years? No! That will be expensive and in reality I would start looking for new stuff after a few years anyway because something will be missing.

As I said: as I work for a living, this approach (at least for me) was the better way: I purchase what I need now and tomorrow and sell it if it does not fulfil my needs anymore to get newer and better stuff.

Note: the above applies to business related stuff. For consumer stuff for private usage this is much different. So you better purchase the best amplifier and/or speaker or camera etc. you can afford. Because then you enjoy right from the beginning. It just don't make sense to buy e.g. crappy speakers and buy new less-crappy speakers a few years later until you then end with good speakers after 20 years: you just lost 20 years with crappy stuff, paid much more at the end and you will regret you did not took the good stuff right from the beginning.

Edit: because I really was curious and wanted to know, I added up all my scope purchases and sellings (including all costs such as shipping and Ebay fees) from 2007. I did not count in the analog scope I already had before and also not the current Keysight. Result: I made 328 Euro profit between 2007 and 2015. Thus, a frequent update of some gear might even earn you money if you carefully select.

Personally I'm not in the scope buying and selling business, did you evaluate the time and energy to buy, research and sell those scopes? Ever heard of "time is money".

OK, so you bought the RTB2004? After all this is a thread about a specific scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on June 01, 2017, 12:35:04 pm
Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.

So, let's see, I spent less for my RTB2004 than you have so far - gee how will I ever cope with such a "crippled" useless scope? I guess I'll just have to make do, poor me....
That is not a fair comparison since you bought the RTB2004 for a very very special price. Normally that configuration costs over 3 times more.

We're not price comparing here. He called the scope "crippled". I disagree.

It's not fair? So you took advantage and bought it but, even at the promo price, you don't think it's worth the money you paid?

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on June 01, 2017, 12:36:19 pm
Half of your scope purchases were mistakes! You must be a hobbyist because hobbyists do those kinds of things.

So, let's see, I spent less for my RTB2004 than you have so far - gee how will I ever cope with such a "crippled" useless scope? I guess I'll just have to make do, poor me....
That is not a fair comparison since you bought the RTB2004 for a very very special price. Normally that configuration costs over 3 times more.
This! this was a loss leading exercise, that people can no longer get, nor could they outside usa.

So you bought it too but don't think it's worth it?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on June 01, 2017, 01:37:50 pm
I don't want to get too involved in this argument, but I do agree that it has some limitations which if fixed would make the unit significantly more useful. These limitations could preclude it from being bought or used by some customers, so hopefully R&S makes some improvements to help both their sales, and us the users. At the same time there are significant advantages compared to similar cost instruments which will lead to it being bought by some even given it's limitations.

Regarding the use of the word "crippled", some of the decisions (e.g. limited math trace functions) do feel a bit artificial, but so does using the small 800x480 screens on every other scope under $10k in this age of cheap 1080p phones!

Having paid the launch promo price for mine I'm very happy with what I got for the money, however if I were to buy at a more standard price I'd have had a much harder look at my requirements and which offering matched them best - each brand has it's strengths and weaknesses and thus perceived value will vary greatly based on user needs.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on June 01, 2017, 07:17:44 pm
Hi Everyone - just a quick update.  1.210 FW has been released internally and should show up on our web early next week (Monday is a holiday in Germany, so probably Tues/Wed).  It appears to mainly contain bug fixes and tweaks based on a number of your feedbacks.  However, it does not include any change to things like math.  I believe that is likely a longer term discussion internally on whether those enhancements will happen - rest assured I've passed on your inputs. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bson on June 02, 2017, 11:04:21 pm
Does the x3000T have benefits?  Sure - more available bandwidth/SR, 50Ohm input and higher update rate.
More importantly, the 3000T has an active probe interface that the MSOX2000/RTB2000 scopes lack.  This is a pretty substantial difference, the value of which will become obvious the first time you try to figure out why an oscillator isn't working right, or sometimes doesn't start up up or remain stable...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: casinada on June 03, 2017, 12:24:50 am
You can get active probes that don't have to be powered by the scope. Sure, it is a nice feature to have. Did you check the price of those probes?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on June 04, 2017, 06:13:16 am
Simple question regarding the RTB2002 70Mhz with R2S-SPI extension,
wouldn't 2 channels (and bandwidth) limit SPI-decoding in some way against the 4-channel version? Is it necessary or better to have a 4-channel version for that?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on June 04, 2017, 07:19:40 am
Simple question regarding the RTB2002 70Mhz with R2S-SPI extension,
wouldn't 2 channels (and bandwidth) limit SPI-decoding in some way against the 4-channel version? Is it necessary or better to have a 4-channel version for that?

If you can do without additional analog channels the 2-channel scope with SSPI decoding (frame decoding by clock idle time) will work as well as a regular 3-wire SPI. If yiou need addition analog channels you can either buy a 4 channel scope ( decoding SSPI will bring you two free analog channels) or you purchase the logic probe. Then no analog channel is occupied.

Bandwidth limit is applied the same way on a 2- or 4-channel scope.
Decoding works for digital channels as well as analog ones.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on June 04, 2017, 09:22:49 am
If you can do without additional analog channels the 2-channel scope with SSPI decoding (frame decoding by clock idle time) will work as well as a regular 3-wire SPI.
...

Thanks JoHr.
Yes that's right, 2-wire SSPI is possible.

In the meantime I have found the very detailed manual online:
 RTB_UserManual_en_02.pdf (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/r/rtb_1/RTB_UserManual_en_02.pdf)

On page 121, chapter 9.2.1 - The SPI Protocol:
"A 4-channel instrument is required for full support of the SPI protocol."

So, for full 3-wire SPI, we need a third analog channel. My hope was maybe the extra trigger input in 2-channel-scope is involved in 3-wire SPI decoding.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on June 04, 2017, 12:32:24 pm
Some of the HMO-series scope used the external input for SPI decoding.

If you don´t have a big quality problem on your bus system you can use the logic channels ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: dr.diesel on June 06, 2017, 11:34:15 am
New FW is up:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2004/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2004/)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on June 06, 2017, 12:22:21 pm
New FW is up:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2004/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2004/)
Not checked it yet but if the release notes cover everything they've fixed so far that's pretty disappointing
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: dr.diesel on June 06, 2017, 12:27:07 pm
Not checked it yet but if the release notes cover everything they've fixed so far that's pretty disappointing

Yup, I read it twice, thought I must have missed a section somehow.

Hope this isn't an early indication of product support.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on June 06, 2017, 01:38:58 pm
Not checked it yet but if the release notes cover everything they've fixed so far that's pretty disappointing
Agreed, though I will try the new F/W tonight to see if anything was fixed but not mentioned.

Rich, can you give us some idea of the timeline and plan for further patches? I have found and reported further issues which aren't even mentioned in the release notes (even under "known issues") and there are no functional improvements in this release.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fgrir on June 06, 2017, 04:46:37 pm
Upgrade was simple and painless, but not much in the way of fixes.  Like Hydron none of the issues I reported here are fixed or mentioned in the known issues.  Very disappointing indeed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on June 06, 2017, 04:57:23 pm
Rich, can you give us some idea of the timeline and plan for further patches? I have found and reported further issues which aren't even mentioned in the release notes (even under "known issues") and there are no functional improvements in this release.
This poor guy Rich has to do deal with this in his spare time (and he is only responsible for the R&S US market) where nobody from the R&S headquarter in Germany ever bothered to say hello or to comment here. I would have expected either substantial firmware improvement and function adaption to make allow the RTB2004 to shine in its market segment or at least an official comment on how R&S want to proceed/deal with our input. Instead: nothing but silence.
Imho this is pretty lame from R&S but typical for many non-customer-oriented companies (which can be found much more frequent in Europe than in the US .... which might be the reason why Rich from R&S US is present here in his spare time - btw: kudos to you Rich, we really appreciate this!).
For the R&S headquarter in Munich/Germany we -here at EEVblog- are probably to minor/unimportant to mind.... (though two people at least visited Mike .... )
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on June 06, 2017, 05:31:44 pm
Rich, can you give us some idea of the timeline and plan for further patches? I have found and reported further issues which aren't even mentioned in the release notes (even under "known issues") and there are no functional improvements in this release.
This poor guy Rich has to do deal with this in his spare time (and he is only responsible for the R&S US market) where nobody from the R&S headquarter in Germany ever bothered to say hello or to comment here. I would have expected either substantial firmware improvement and function adaption to make allow the RTB2004 to shine in its market segment or at least an official comment on how R&S want to proceed/deal with our input. Instead: nothing but silence.
Imho this is pretty lame from R&S but typical for many non-customer-oriented companies (which can be found much more frequent in Europe than in the US .... which might be the reason why Rich from R&S US is present here in his spare time - btw: kudos to you Rich, we really appreciate this!).
For the R&S headquarter in Munich/Germany we -here at EEVblog- are probably to minor/unimportant to mind.... (though two people at least visited Mike .... )
No need to feel pity for me  ;D 

To be frank, based on what I saw in the release notes, I expected a bit more in this release too.  But please don't ever underestimate R&S' commitment to customers.  It is by far the most customer oriented company I've had the pleasure of working at.  But sometimes we take a bit longer than I'd like to make things happen.

I'll see what I can find out about the next planned update.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on June 06, 2017, 05:38:22 pm
From my list :
Fixed :
Wrong origin on pinch zoom when reference set to left/right
issues enabling some permutations of decodes
Left/Right time ref setting not preserved over power cycle - fixed but not mentioned in release notes

Not fixed :
Aux out setting not preserved over power cycle
UART framing doesn't work
Web interface save device settings produces empty file
user labels not shown in source selection menus


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on June 06, 2017, 06:11:12 pm
This was my bug list (in addition to those already reported):

- Custom probe scaling factor does not work in A mode, only V. Workaround is to set a custom factor (e.g. 0.05) in V mode then change to A (becomes 50mV/A).
- Occasional math trace bugs when zooming in/out of captured waveforms
- Web (Ethernet) UI doesn't allow download of digital channel data. Also requires saving channel-by-channel, there is no time-saving "all visible" or similar option. (part bug, part missing feature)
- The external trigger voltage can't be set with on screen keyboard, only with the rotary knob.
- Latest waveform in history mode gets cut off at the trigger point when moving to another waveform then back to the most recently acquired one.
- Loud fan (on some units, including mine)

These unfortunately didn't get to them till late May due to an errant spam filter, so wasn't expecting fixes, but they haven't made the known-issue list either.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Markus@RohdeScopes on June 07, 2017, 04:20:12 am
This poor guy Rich has to do deal with this in his spare time (and he is only responsible for the R&S US market) where nobody from the R&S headquarter in Germany ever bothered to say hello or to comment here. I would have expected either substantial firmware improvement and function adaption to make allow the RTB2004 to shine in its market segment or at least an official comment on how R&S want to proceed/deal with our input. Instead: nothing but silence.
Imho this is pretty lame from R&S but typical for many non-customer-oriented companies (which can be found much more frequent in Europe than in the US .... which might be the reason why Rich from R&S US is present here in his spare time - btw: kudos to you Rich, we really appreciate this!).
For the R&S headquarter in Munich/Germany we -here at EEVblog- are probably to minor/unimportant to mind.... (though two people at least visited Mike .... )

Hi,

I'm Markus Freidhof from Munich and I'm part of the R&D team for oscilloscopes. More as 13 years ago I've founded the oscilloscope development at R&S and until now I very deep involved (together with a lot of very good engineers) in the design of our oscilloscopes.

First I like to say, that I and a lot of my colleagues follow this forum and the discussions. For myself I do this serveral times per day and I've learned a lot. It's an important forum.

But please understand that I don't envolve myself in deep discussions, for such things my englisch not good enough. There is chance that some important information will be "Lost in Translation".

I can understand your frustration about missing bug fixes and I'll discuss this with my responsible colleagues. Let's see.

@Rich: A big thank you for your work here in this forum (additional "Kinder Schokolade" today?) and please stay tuned ...

Regards

Markus
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on June 07, 2017, 06:15:54 am
Hi Markus, I am very happy to see R&S following and taking part in the comments and discussions of those who use your products.

Please thank the engineers for their hard work on this new product - the effort and thought that has been put into the RTB design makes it fantastic to use.

Many of the comments made here are because we see an great product with a small number of frustrating omissions and bugs - I feel that there is the opportunity for the RTB2k to compete very well with competition's offerings and make it's users very satisfied if some of these are able to be addressed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skench on June 07, 2017, 10:07:30 am
So after upgrading to the latest firmware version I thought I would run the Self Alignment routine.

It failed with this message:

  Channel: 1
  Alignment not possible.

  ERROR-ID: 201-59.1.23014

I followed the instruction to the letter.
I then retried but with a terminator on Channel 1 input and then the Self Alignment passed.

Do I have a problem?

Thanks
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skench on June 07, 2017, 10:55:55 am
Another new User Manual is available for the RTB2000 series.

They have managed to add over 150 new pages!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on June 07, 2017, 11:04:38 am
So after upgrading to the latest firmware version I thought I would run the Self Alignment routine.

It failed with this message:

  Channel: 1
  Alignment not possible.

  ERROR-ID: 201-59.1.23014

I followed the instruction to the letter.
I then retried but with a terminator on Channel 1 input and then the Self Alignment passed.

Do I have a problem?

Thanks
Hi skench - no problem.  If the unit passed the second time it is fine.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skench on June 07, 2017, 11:38:04 am
Thanks for your fast response Rich but it actual failed the Self Alignment a number of time and it always failed with the Channel 1 error message.

It only passed after I fitted a 50 ohm terminator to channel 1.
The other 3 channels passed without any terminators fitted.

Why would channel 1 need the terminator to pass?

Thanks
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on June 07, 2017, 11:48:48 am
I've noticed that when unconnected, ch1 is slightly noiser.
As the scope has an input grounding function, seems odd that it should need an external short.
Title: Where did everyone go?
Post by: agdr on June 11, 2017, 08:14:28 am
That RTB2000 firmware update seems to have sucked all the enthusiasm right out of the room. :(  The thread was clear over on the 3rd page.
Title: Re: Where did everyone go?
Post by: nctnico on June 11, 2017, 04:29:49 pm
That RTB2000 firmware update seems to have sucked all the enthusiasm right out of the room. :(  The thread was clear over on the 3rd page.
This posting has some complaints about R&S leaving much to be desired when it comes to firmware updates and completeness on their budget equipment:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-4-0ghz-portable-spectrum-rider-fph-review-teardown-experiment/msg1172922/#msg1172922 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-4-0ghz-portable-spectrum-rider-fph-review-teardown-experiment/msg1172922/#msg1172922)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on June 11, 2017, 05:16:20 pm
Hello,

@Markus Freidhof

Hello,

@Markus Freidhof


Is a sample in memory 10 bits?

I am sorry that I have no chance to get a good early promo price.
Perhaps Rohde & Schwarz don't like people that can pronounce Rohde & Schwarz correct.

Best regards
egonotto
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Markus@RohdeScopes on June 11, 2017, 06:00:12 pm
Hello,

@Markus Freidhof

Hello,

@Markus Freidhof


Is a sample in memory 10 bits?

I am sorry that I have no chance to get a good early promo price.
Perhaps Rohde & Schwarz don't like people that can pronounce Rohde & Schwarz correct.

Best regards
egonotto

Hi egonotto,

the ADC has 10 bit and all of them are stored in the memory. If you store the waveform in a file, you'll get all 10 bits (or more with HiRes).

Since I'm in the engineering team, I can not help you with commercial aspects. But I can promise you, that nearly the whole world pronounce "Rohde&Schwarz" different as germans do. Don't worry I've written the company name wrong in my application and they hired me.

Best Regards

Markus
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on June 13, 2017, 07:35:43 pm
Seems like once you click one, Youtube keeps following you. Another unboxing video, but this time in German
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNLNGRvf58g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNLNGRvf58g)

I actually really like the colour power net frequency analysis he does at 27:30min
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on June 29, 2017, 10:30:03 pm
Hi, just got in my RTB2004 and am having a problem with probe calibration on channel 1. Whatever I try, switching probe from 1x to 10x or anything else in the channel settings, I always get - Probe Adjust Warning: Signal does not match. -. I don't have this problem on the other 3 channels and all channel settings are the same. Different probes make no difference either.

Anyone seen this?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on June 30, 2017, 12:42:33 am
I didn't have this problem on mine. Do you put the probe onto the contacts as seen in the picture that the scope shows when calibrating? So tip into the signal pin and the probe cable to the left so that the ground ring lies in the ground contact?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on June 30, 2017, 01:24:03 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er3lc0_ahcY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er3lc0_ahcY)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on June 30, 2017, 07:28:28 am
@octane yes, exactly like in the picture. Works on the other three.

update: problem has disappeared the next day.. don't know why it failed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on July 01, 2017, 11:45:08 am
K0 (demo) option (see screenshot). Anyone know what this is, cannot find any info in the documentation or R&S website.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on July 01, 2017, 12:12:57 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er3lc0_ahcY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er3lc0_ahcY)
Are contestants from the US excluded? They already had the chance to buy this scope for a very much reduced price. Anyway it would be nice to see this scope go to someone who could really use it  :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Markus@RohdeScopes on July 01, 2017, 02:14:16 pm
K0 (demo) option (see screenshot). Anyone know what this is, cannot find any info in the documentation or R&S website.

The K0 option is a key which enables all options inside the instrument. This option is used for demo equipment.

Markus
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on July 01, 2017, 03:09:26 pm
Here's another RTB2004 giveaway. He needs 10k views to give it away and he's at ~7k.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqyVAHUIBRo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqyVAHUIBRo)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on July 01, 2017, 04:05:55 pm
I also have one to give away but haven't yet thought of a good way to do it & very busy atm.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on July 01, 2017, 04:08:13 pm
So nobody wants to keep it?  :box:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on July 01, 2017, 04:33:43 pm
So nobody wants to keep it?  :box:
I am keeping the other one  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on July 01, 2017, 10:18:22 pm
I also have one to give away but haven't yet thought of a good way to do it & very busy atm.

Why don't you do it together with Dave?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on July 01, 2017, 10:36:49 pm
So nobody wants to keep it?  :box:
I am keeping the other one  :)
OK, I hadn't noticed you owned two.  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on July 02, 2017, 04:08:54 pm
Hi, just got in my RTB2004 and am having a problem with probe calibration on channel 1. Whatever I try, switching probe from 1x to 10x or anything else in the channel settings, I always get - Probe Adjust Warning: Signal does not match. -. I don't have this problem on the other 3 channels and all channel settings are the same. Different probes make no difference either.

Anyone seen this?

Hi ...  as far as i could see the signal seems to be detected well  2.5V and 1kHz.
Trigger level seems to be low ... I didn´t have this message on my RTB since i have it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on July 02, 2017, 05:09:11 pm
Hi, just got in my RTB2004 and am having a problem with probe calibration on channel 1. Whatever I try, switching probe from 1x to 10x or anything else in the channel settings, I always get - Probe Adjust Warning: Signal does not match. -. I don't have this problem on the other 3 channels and all channel settings are the same. Different probes make no difference either.

Anyone seen this?

Hi ...  as far as i could see the signal seems to be detected well  2.5V and 1kHz.
Trigger level seems to be low ... I didn´t have this message on my RTB since i have it.

The problem has disappeared the next day and have not been able to reproduce it. I also had the impression channel 1 was a little bit more noisier than the others, but if that has any relationship.. I think the issue is related to a day of heavy experimenting with features. One other issue I had was the pattern generator that I could not enable at all. It required me to do a factory reset. Now it all works fine.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on July 05, 2017, 09:17:34 am
Pattern Generator has failed again requiring me to do a factory reset. Anyone else has this problem?

Does R&S have an official place for bug reports?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on July 05, 2017, 09:35:54 am
I also have one to give away but haven't yet thought of a good way to do it & very busy atm.

in case dave nominates someone from europe, donate yours so no customs  >:D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on July 05, 2017, 09:46:10 am
I also have one to give away but haven't yet thought of a good way to do it & very busy atm.

in case dave nominates someone from europe, donate yours so no customs  >:D
I'm probably going to limit it to Europe anyway.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on July 05, 2017, 10:54:37 am
I also have one to give away but haven't yet thought of a good way to do it & very busy atm.

in case dave nominates someone from europe, donate yours so no customs  >:D
I'm probably going to limit it to Europe anyway.


No duties is only valid if done before Brexit...  >:D  :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on July 05, 2017, 10:57:20 am
I also have one to give away but haven't yet thought of a good way to do it & very busy atm.

in case dave nominates someone from europe, donate yours so no customs  >:D
I'm probably going to limit it to Europe anyway.


No duties is only valid if done before Brexit...  >:D  :-DD
...with luck I might even get round to doing it before then...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on July 06, 2017, 07:56:41 pm
Pattern Generator has failed again requiring me to do a factory reset. Anyone else has this problem?

Does R&S have an official place for bug reports?

this looks like the right place to me: https://gloris.rohde-schwarz.com/anonymous/en/pages/toplevel/service_support_requests.html (https://gloris.rohde-schwarz.com/anonymous/en/pages/toplevel/service_support_requests.html)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on July 06, 2017, 08:48:36 pm
Yes, I submitted a service request at gloris. They immediately (!) came back to me with some questions. As the app screen shows an active patt. gen. while it is actually off, it looks like a status bug of some sort. Hopefully they fix it in the next firmware update as it is annoying to always have to reset the scope.
Title: Front panel unboxing
Post by: agdr on July 07, 2017, 12:35:40 am
The front panel I ordered 2 months ago (5/9/17) finally arrived!  Cheers me up a bit about this scope after that nearly-useless firmware update.

The first photo shows opening the box up.  R&S have it sitting in there upside down.  The box is nice and heavy, I'll give them credit for that.  Plastic over the panel to protect from rubbing on the cardboard.

Then fitting on the scope.  There is a small gap where the scope's white panel bezel plastic mates with the blue body plastic.  The two plastic snaps on either side of the front panel "click in" to that gap just perfectly.  At first I figured that is how it attaches, but things didn't seem quite right.  The panel could slide up and down in the track.  There was also still a considerable gap between the top of the panel and the scope bezel that could let in dust.

Hmmm.  I studied the thing a bit more and it seemed to be molded/sized to fit around the scope bezel, which is what should be happening with a cover.  Relying on the sage age-old advice of "it if doesn't fit force it; if it breaks it needed replacing anyway" I pushed a lot harder on the panel.  Sure enough, the side panel plastic snaps popped out of the groove and instead clamped around and indentation in the blue body plastic, as the second photo shows.

In that photo you can see the panel snap is firmly "locked into" the groove between the white panel bezel and the blue body plastic, where it shouldn't be.  When you push harder it pops out of the groove and then goes around the curved blue plastic to the right of where the panel snap is here.  As far as I can tell there is no way to avoid this two-step process.

In the "that's not a bug, its a feature!" department there is the chance that R&S designed it this way to allow two different mounting positions for the panel, one forward of actually snapping over the screen.  The fit of the panel snaps into the groove is so perfect it seems unlikely the mating happened by design chance.  But I can't fathom what the purpose or use of having the panel sticking out a cm from the front of the screen would be.

With the installation figured out I can say I'm happy with the results.  The new panel protects the scope screen quite nicely.  The panel it is fairly sturdy.  I bought the panel after becoming worried about scuffing of the (touch) screen from repeated in and out of the R&S case for the unit.  Is it worth the $85 they charge (some small discount by logging in at Tequipment)?  Absolutely not.  Should you buy one?  Definitely.  It is cheap insurance compared to the cost of the scope to prevent bad things from happening to the screen in transport.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on July 07, 2017, 07:38:49 am
Noticed the same as above on my cover (snagged the last one in stock at Farnell, so had it within 24 hours rather than 2 months!). I find that taking it on/off at an angle helps, but am still tempted to shave down the lip of the over a little to make it less sharp, which might make it less liable to catch on the groove.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: WackyGerman on July 07, 2017, 09:08:35 am
I also have one to give away but haven't yet thought of a good way to do it & very busy atm.

 :-+ :-+ . Ihope it will get a good new home and the new owner reaaly need such a beasty item  :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: peter-h on July 08, 2017, 06:31:04 am
Apologies of I missed this but a search doesn't find it. Is there a bandwidth hack for the RTB2004?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on July 08, 2017, 02:38:18 pm
Apologies of I missed this but a search doesn't find it. Is there a bandwidth hack for the RTB2004?

None that I am aware of. This is a brand new scope! Most who have it here probably have the full 350MHz bandwidth already - due to the promotional launch deal.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on July 08, 2017, 07:22:23 pm
Dave on EEVblab showed a conceptual man-in-the-middle hardware hack on the chip controlling the bandwidth.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on July 08, 2017, 09:36:17 pm
Dave on EEVblab showed a conceptual man-in-the-middle hardware hack on the chip controlling the bandwidth.

Nope, This was for the HMO1202.

https://www.eevblog.com/2016/05/13/eevblog-879-rs-hmo1202-scope-bandwidth-hack-investigation/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2016/05/13/eevblog-879-rs-hmo1202-scope-bandwidth-hack-investigation/)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on July 08, 2017, 09:54:05 pm
Dave on EEVblab showed a conceptual man-in-the-middle hardware hack on the chip controlling the bandwidth.

Nope, This was for the HMO1202.

https://www.eevblog.com/2016/05/13/eevblog-879-rs-hmo1202-scope-bandwidth-hack-investigation/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2016/05/13/eevblog-879-rs-hmo1202-scope-bandwidth-hack-investigation/)
The same trick is potentially usable for the RTB as well - I believe it uses the same part: http://www.ti.com/product/LMH6518 (http://www.ti.com/product/LMH6518)
The VGA bandwidth settings mostly match up with the RTB options, but 70MHz is missing, so the limit could well be more complex than just a VGA setting.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on July 09, 2017, 12:37:10 am
Apologies of I missed this but a search doesn't find it. Is there a bandwidth hack for the RTB2004?

None that I am aware of. This is a brand new scope! Most who have it here probably have the full 350MHz bandwidth already - due to the promotional launch deal.

Likely true.
This is not a cheap scope, it's popularity on the forum is mostly related due to the promotional deal. Was a huge marketing win for R&S.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on July 11, 2017, 10:15:55 am
Apologies of I missed this but a search doesn't find it. Is there a bandwidth hack for the RTB2004?

None that I am aware of. This is a brand new scope! Most who have it here probably have the full 350MHz bandwidth already - due to the promotional launch deal.

Likely true.
This is not a cheap scope, it's popularity on the forum is mostly related due to the promotional deal. Was a huge marketing win for R&S.
I'm not.
Now, i own the 70Mhz version without anything...
And, I LOVE IT!  :clap:
But for now, i'm completely broke.  :phew:
 ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on July 11, 2017, 05:59:17 pm
Now, i own the 70Mhz version without anything...

May I ask where you have bought it?
I'm looking for one as well.

Thanks,

Andreas
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on July 11, 2017, 07:36:41 pm
This is not a cheap scope, it's popularity on the forum is mostly related due to the promotional deal. Was a huge marketing win for R&S.
Its only a marketing win if these scopes sold at cost stimulate a lot of sales of scopes at a healthy profit. We've seen it create a lot of buzz around the product, but we'll never know how it really works out for R&S. Giving away scopes seems to be the flavour of the month among marketing tactics. ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ruairi on July 11, 2017, 09:16:05 pm
It's hard to quantify in the short-term.  Interestingly as a now RTB2004 owner I find myself much more amenable to the rest of their products, new and used.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 11, 2017, 09:33:28 pm
This is not a cheap scope, it's popularity on the forum is mostly related due to the promotional deal. Was a huge marketing win for R&S.
Its only a marketing win if these scopes sold at cost stimulate a lot of sales of scopes at a healthy profit. We've seen it create a lot of buzz around the product, but we'll never know how it really works out for R&S. Giving away scopes seems to be the flavour of the month among marketing tactics. ;)

Good- keep it up!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on July 11, 2017, 10:01:33 pm
Now, i own the 70Mhz version without anything...

May I ask where you have bought it?
I'm looking for one as well.

Thanks,

Andreas

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on July 11, 2017, 10:13:48 pm
Now, i own the 70Mhz version without anything...

May I ask where you have bought it?
I'm looking for one as well.

Thanks,

Andreas

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Oszilloskop.htm)

If you are eligible, you might get an educational discount. This could perhaps shave off about 10%. Worth checking.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 11, 2017, 10:16:39 pm
Apologies of I missed this but a search doesn't find it. Is there a bandwidth hack for the RTB2004?

None that I am aware of. This is a brand new scope! Most who have it here probably have the full 350MHz bandwidth already - due to the promotional launch deal.

Likely true.
This is not a cheap scope, it's popularity on the forum is mostly related due to the promotional deal. Was a huge marketing win for R&S.
I'm not.
Now, i own the 70Mhz version without anything...
And, I LOVE IT!  :clap:
But for now, i'm completely broke.  :phew:
 ;D

This scope is so good that even the 70 meg is worth it. Enjoy your scope!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on July 12, 2017, 04:13:29 am
This scope is so good that even the 70 meg is worth it. Enjoy your scope!
Yes, that's right. Thank you.  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on July 27, 2017, 02:06:29 pm
As an maybe interesting info about these relative expensive single options, without wanting to advertise it, there is one option RTB-PK1 that includes 5 other options for a fraction of the sum of its parts: RTB-K1, RTB-K2, RTB-K3, RTB-K15, RTB-K6.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KrzysztofB on July 28, 2017, 08:14:29 am
Anyone annoyed about the handle as me?
Whenever i'm trying to carry the scope somewhere I feel that it's so easy to slip out from my hand.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 28, 2017, 11:54:45 am
You're kidding, right?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KrzysztofB on July 28, 2017, 12:22:52 pm
Nope. I'm super serious.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fred27 on July 28, 2017, 03:08:11 pm
I'd be happy to swap it for a DS1074Z with you. The handle on that is awesome.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on July 28, 2017, 03:41:24 pm
Anyone annoyed about the handle as me?
Whenever i'm trying to carry the scope somewhere I feel that it's so easy to slip out from my hand.

"You are holding it wrong."    ;)
Steve Jobs
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on July 28, 2017, 05:06:44 pm
Nope. I'm super serious.
Looking at an image of the scope I have to agree such handles don't offer a really firm grip.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 28, 2017, 07:25:28 pm
I'd be happy to swap it for a DS1074Z with you. The handle on that is awesome.

Perfect!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on July 28, 2017, 07:56:09 pm
Anyone annoyed about the handle as me?
Whenever i'm trying to carry the scope somewhere I feel that it's so easy to slip out from my hand.
My suspicions are confirmed.
(http://www.datatec.de/shop/pix/a/z/rtb2004/Rohde_&_Schwarz-rtb2004-b5.jpg)

Not sure I like the rear handle, seems pretty basic for an expensive scope. I'd much rather something to wrap fingers around.  :-//
Looks easy to drop.  :scared:  :-BROKE
Out with the drill and add a rope handle to it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on July 29, 2017, 04:03:45 am
I just took a look at the RTB2000 R&S web page and checked the dates on all the documentation.  Nothing updated since the first week of June when the firmware came out:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/rtb2000-productstartpage_63493-266306.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/rtb2000-productstartpage_63493-266306.html)

Looks like R&S has moved on to other projects.  :(
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on July 29, 2017, 05:41:17 am
I just took a look at the RTB2000 R&S web page and checked the dates on all the documentation.  Nothing updated since the first week of June when the firmware came out:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/rtb2000-productstartpage_63493-266306.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/rtb2000-productstartpage_63493-266306.html)

Looks like R&S has moved on to other projects.  :(

It's been less than 2 months. How often are you expecting updates?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on July 29, 2017, 10:26:44 am
I just took a look at the RTB2000 R&S web page and checked the dates on all the documentation.  Nothing updated since the first week of June when the firmware came out:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/rtb2000-productstartpage_63493-266306.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/rtb2000-productstartpage_63493-266306.html)

Looks like R&S has moved on to other projects.  :(

It's been less than 2 months. How often are you expecting updates?
For a new product, with a list of known issues,most of which were not fixed with the first update, it somewhat disappointing that we've seen nothing since.
Maybe they're busy doing some major changes to improve the sluggish UI, maybe.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 29, 2017, 11:15:51 am
I'd like to see a survey showing of how many people actual use these scopes professionally. Some of these comments crack me up!

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: dr.diesel on July 29, 2017, 12:17:10 pm
For a new product, with a list of known issues,most of which were not fixed with the first update, it somewhat disappointing that we've seen nothing since.
Maybe they're busy doing some major changes to improve the sluggish UI, maybe.

Couldn't agree more, very disappointing follow up, especially given the lack of communication from R&S since.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on July 29, 2017, 12:31:14 pm
Am I the only one who finds it mildly amusing to read all those luke-warm to grumbling comments, right under the wildly hyperbolic title which the OP chose for this thread?  ::)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: dr.diesel on July 29, 2017, 12:34:16 pm
Am I the only one who finds it mildly amusing to read all those luke-warm to grumbling comments, right under the wildly hyperbolic title which the OP chose for this tread?  ::)

You are not alone Sir.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 29, 2017, 12:51:00 pm
From my old Navy days:

"A bitching sailor is a happy sailor"
anonymous
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on July 29, 2017, 12:57:33 pm
Am I the only one who finds it mildly amusing to read all those luke-warm to grumbling comments, right under the wildly hyperbolic title which the OP chose for this tread?  ::)

You are not alone Sir.
It is an excellent scope, just frustrating that it's let down by a few small details, most of which ought to be fixable given the effort.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on July 29, 2017, 01:07:29 pm
It is an excellent scope [...]

No doubt about this. But is it a "killer scope" or a "game changer"?
Still wondering what drove Flintstone to craft that headline..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Markus@RohdeScopes on July 29, 2017, 01:13:13 pm
Hi,

since the RTB is not my project, I can't any promises here but I'll ask the responsible product manager for a feedback/roadmap.

Markus
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 29, 2017, 01:14:19 pm
Am I the only one who finds it mildly amusing to read all those luke-warm to grumbling comments, right under the wildly hyperbolic title which the OP chose for this tread?  ::)

You are not alone Sir.
It is an excellent scope, just frustrating that it's let down by a few small details, most of which ought to be fixable given the effort.

Old Chinese proverb:
"He who seeks perfection finds failure."

This is a superb scope in so many ways that the small quirks don't even register. I shot an I2C problem a couple of weeks ago and the scope made it a breeze.

Come on, how many of you guys work in the entertainment section of Walmart as your day job and got a voltmeter for Christmas?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on July 29, 2017, 01:44:02 pm
I have it next to my MSO3104T, but I find I only use it if I need to see more channels, look at independent triggers, or in some decode circumstances (will be more once the fix the uart decode framing bug).
The reason is simply that I find the UI so annoyingly sluggish compared to the Keysight. I'm sure that users who've only used Rigol.Tek etc. Find it OK, but once you've been using the KS for a while it just feels slow, and the intensity grading is rather less refined.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 29, 2017, 01:51:15 pm
I have it next to my MSO3104T, but I find I only use it if I need to see more channels, look at independent triggers, or in some decode circumstances (will be more once the fix the uart decode framing bug).
The reason is simply that I find the UI so annoyingly sluggish compared to the Keysight. I'm sure that users who've only used Rigol.Tek etc. Find it OK, but once you've been using the KS for a while it just feels slow, and the intensity grading is rather less refined.

Gee, I would think it's super fast compared the "vintage" stuff you use. How does that work? And isn't that KS 8 bits?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on July 29, 2017, 01:56:04 pm
I'd agree with mike, it's generally excellent...
until you have to do something like integrate a current measurement over time, decode more than one serial bus, or something else basic that R&S didn't include on an otherwise great, feature packed instrument.

Very frustrating, as when I pull out the DS1054Z to do whatever I couldn't (but should have been able to do) on the RTB2k I remember why I now hate using the Rigol in comparison. The UI bugs me less than it does Mike (probably for the reasons he gave), but it would make a major difference simply being able to turn off all UI animations.

A few additions and fixes like these would move it from being a "killer" only at launch-promo price (or for specific needs), to something that would fully justify the thread title and that I'd recommend to my boss to buy for the lab at work.

Markus - thanks for checking in, I'd love to hear what is being planned, and any comments regarding user feedback R&S has received.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on July 29, 2017, 02:17:12 pm
This is a superb scope in so many ways that the small quirks don't even register. I shot an I2C problem a couple of weeks ago and the scope made it a breeze.
Now you sound like the owner of a low end Rigol or Siglent scope!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 29, 2017, 02:20:43 pm
I'd agree with mike, it's generally excellent...
until you have to do something like integrate a current measurement over time, decode more than one serial bus, or something else basic that R&S didn't include on an otherwise great, feature packed instrument.

Very frustrating, as when I pull out the DS1054Z to do whatever I couldn't (but should have been able to do) on the RTB2k I remember why I now hate using the Rigol in comparison. The UI bugs me less than it does Mike (probably for the reasons he gave), but it would make a major difference simply being able to turn off all UI animations.

A few additions and fixes like these would move it from being a "killer" only at launch-promo price (or for specific needs), to something that would fully justify the thread title and that I'd recommend to my boss to buy for the lab at work.

Markus - thanks for checking in, I'd love to hear what is being planned, and any comments regarding user feedback R&S has received.

Maybe you bought the wrong scope for your needs.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 29, 2017, 02:54:57 pm
This is a superb scope in so many ways that the small quirks don't even register. I shot an I2C problem a couple of weeks ago and the scope made it a breeze.
Now you sound like the owner of a low end Rigol or Siglent scope!

 I gave one example and you think you know what scope suits me? I've been using scopes since you were a star in your mother's eye. (I'm laughing here!)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on July 29, 2017, 03:24:37 pm
This is a superb scope in so many ways that the small quirks don't even register. I shot an I2C problem a couple of weeks ago and the scope made it a breeze.
Now you sound like the owner of a low end Rigol or Siglent scope!
I gave one example and you think you know what scope suits me? I've been using scopes since you were a star in your mother's eye. (I'm laughing here!)
Internet forum rule number one: don't start a pissing contest because there is always someone out there which exceeds whatever you think you have.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on July 29, 2017, 03:26:12 pm
I'd agree with mike, it's generally excellent...
until you have to do something like integrate a current measurement over time, decode more than one serial bus, or something else basic that R&S didn't include on an otherwise great, feature packed instrument.

Very frustrating, as when I pull out the DS1054Z to do whatever I couldn't (but should have been able to do) on the RTB2k I remember why I now hate using the Rigol in comparison. The UI bugs me less than it does Mike (probably for the reasons he gave), but it would make a major difference simply being able to turn off all UI animations.

A few additions and fixes like these would move it from being a "killer" only at launch-promo price (or for specific needs), to something that would fully justify the thread title and that I'd recommend to my boss to buy for the lab at work.

Markus - thanks for checking in, I'd love to hear what is being planned, and any comments regarding user feedback R&S has received.

Maybe you bought the wrong scope for your needs.
Well, it depends. Generally you are right: by fastidious reading the specs, some would be able to recognize the limits. However, in my opinion a $8000 scope MUST offer extended math functions and duplex serial decoder when even <$500 scopes are coming with this and many will just have expected these features and they wouldn't dream that the scope is lacking these (todays) basic features. By not even answering to these complaints here, R&S for me seems to be arrogant - maybe hoping that the ranting will fade. Generally R&S is usually not focused on single electronic engineers who spend a few thousand bucks here and there: they just care about companies and schools/universities who spend tens of thousands. It seems complaint- / problem-
 management is not one of the strengths of this company.
I was really disappointed when the list with known issues which came with the last firmware update 8 weeks ago did not show a single bugs of the many bugs which were reported here even many weeks before the new firmware came out.
Well, lets hope Markus is being able to make the product manager show a roadmap of planned firmware improvements so we know, if we can expect something from R&S or if they almost finished working on this scope and the programmers already moved to another project.
@Markus: thank you for trying to be helpful - let's hope it will be successful!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on July 29, 2017, 05:58:00 pm
I'd agree with mike, it's generally excellent...
until you have to do something like integrate a current measurement over time, decode more than one serial bus, or something else basic that R&S didn't include on an otherwise great, feature packed instrument.
Very frustrating, as when I pull out the DS1054Z to do whatever I couldn't (but should have been able to do) on the RTB2k I remember why I now hate using the Rigol in comparison. The UI bugs me less than it does Mike (probably for the reasons he gave), but it would make a major difference simply being able to turn off all UI animations.
A few additions and fixes like these would move it from being a "killer" only at launch-promo price (or for specific needs), to something that would fully justify the thread title and that I'd recommend to my boss to buy for the lab at work.
Markus - thanks for checking in, I'd love to hear what is being planned, and any comments regarding user feedback R&S has received.
Maybe you bought the wrong scope for your needs.
Actually I was keen to get a scope with a big+hi-res screen, MSO and better front-end/sample-rate/bandwidth than my Rigol. Have a look at the competition and guess why I bought a (promo-price) RTB2k?

I have 2 other scopes which can fill in the capability gaps on the rare occasion that it's required, it's just annoying that they have to do so.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RoGeorge on July 29, 2017, 07:07:41 pm
Old Chinese proverb:
"He who seeks perfection finds failure."

For sure, the old Chinese must had been fighting with some user-friendly dragon while he said that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi6_tLnCY1c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi6_tLnCY1c)

 ^-^
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 29, 2017, 08:54:30 pm
This is a superb scope in so many ways that the small quirks don't even register. I shot an I2C problem a couple of weeks ago and the scope made it a breeze.
Now you sound like the owner of a low end Rigol or Siglent scope!
I gave one example and you think you know what scope suits me? I've been using scopes since you were a star in your mother's eye. (I'm laughing here!)
Internet forum rule number one: don't start a pissing contest because there is always someone out there which exceeds whatever you think you have.


Actually, you started the pissing contest.

I started working in electronics when I was a kid in high school at the local radio/TV repair shop, I was about 16 or 17 when I used my first scope, I'm 72 now. Got a lot of people around here who have been working in electronics the last 55 years? Would that be you?

I didn't think so....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 29, 2017, 09:02:31 pm
Old Chinese proverb:
"He who seeks perfection finds failure."

For sure, the old Chinese must had been fighting with some user-friendly dragon while he said that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi6_tLnCY1c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi6_tLnCY1c)

 ^-^

I think he was making rice.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on July 29, 2017, 09:05:51 pm
Maybe you bought the wrong scope for your needs.

I gave one example and you think you know what scope suits me?

Double standards, anyone?

You wrote those two posts within half an hour of each other. Please make up you mind whether or not it's adequate to second-guess someone's choice of scope based on a forum post.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 29, 2017, 09:10:12 pm
I'd agree with mike, it's generally excellent...
until you have to do something like integrate a current measurement over time, decode more than one serial bus, or something else basic that R&S didn't include on an otherwise great, feature packed instrument.
Very frustrating, as when I pull out the DS1054Z to do whatever I couldn't (but should have been able to do) on the RTB2k I remember why I now hate using the Rigol in comparison. The UI bugs me less than it does Mike (probably for the reasons he gave), but it would make a major difference simply being able to turn off all UI animations.
A few additions and fixes like these would move it from being a "killer" only at launch-promo price (or for specific needs), to something that would fully justify the thread title and that I'd recommend to my boss to buy for the lab at work.
Markus - thanks for checking in, I'd love to hear what is being planned, and any comments regarding user feedback R&S has received.
Maybe you bought the wrong scope for your needs.
Actually I was keen to get a scope with a big+hi-res screen, MSO and better front-end/sample-rate/bandwidth than my Rigol. Have a look at the competition and guess why I bought a (promo-price) RTB2k?

I have 2 other scopes which can fill in the capability gaps on the rare occasion that it's required, it's just annoying that they have to do so.
Maybe you can sell it on Ebay, I think they are going for about $3.5k.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 29, 2017, 09:16:13 pm
Maybe you bought the wrong scope for your needs.

I gave one example and you think you know what scope suits me?

Double standards, anyone?

You wrote those two posts within half an hour of each other. Please make up you mind whether or not it's adequate to second-guess someone's choice of scope based on a forum post.

See that word "maybe". It was a suggestion. Do I know what his needs are? No.



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on July 29, 2017, 09:20:46 pm
What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity?  :-//

It's as bad as politics and religion on this forum. I don't see that kind of fervor in discussions about power supplies or even DMMs.

As far as the RTB200x - I agree a more comprehensive update is needed - with bug fixes and expanded math functionality. I'm in no hurry personally for my current use case, but I can see that if they don't get something out in the next few months, they're risking losing all the marketing momentum they generated with their release promotions.

Kudos to Markus's presecence and efforts - I hope he can get R&S to move a bit faster.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RoGeorge on July 29, 2017, 09:27:54 pm
Actually, you started the pissing contest.

I started working in electronics when I was a kid in high school at the local radio/TV repair shop, I was about 16 or 17 when I used my first scope, I'm 72 now. Got a lot of people around here who have been working in electronics the last 55 years? Would that be you?

I didn't think so....

That post was intended to show how some users seeks perfection in their oscilloscopes, but no feature can suit each and every wish, no matter how good or how user-friendly that feature was intended to be. So, instead of perfection, some too picky users will find just failure and frustration, like in the old Chinese saying.

There was no intention to offend you, or any other specific user, and I am sorry if it did.
Please accept my apologies.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 29, 2017, 09:45:08 pm
Actually, you started the pissing contest.

I started working in electronics when I was a kid in high school at the local radio/TV repair shop, I was about 16 or 17 when I used my first scope, I'm 72 now. Got a lot of people around here who have been working in electronics the last 55 years? Would that be you?

I didn't think so....

That post was intended to show how some users seeks perfection in their oscilloscopes, but no feature can suit each and every wish, no matter how good or how user-friendly that feature was intended to be. So, instead of perfection, some too picky users will find just failure and frustration, like in the old Chinese saying.

There was no intention to offend you, or any other specific user, and I am sorry if it did.
Please accept my apologies.

Please, it's nothing, no need to apologize, you're fine.

As for the scope, sometimes I wonder, everybody is an expert. The people who designed this thing are some of the brightest in the world. What? They didn't examine it, weigh different parameters? You bet they did, I've been in there.  I think the grumblers should  apply for a job at R&S just to see their reaction, these guys get to pick the cream of crop, how many people here think they are in that group?
Did R&S ask anyone here,"Hey, by  the way, what's your education and background so we can quote you in our ads?" Right! They don't even care, why should they? Sure, get field feedback but if anyone thinks they are deeply concerned about what a bunch of guys on a blog think than I hope they'll contact me, I've got a great deal going on bridges all next week!

R&S will probably sell a bucket of these to institutions and governments regardless of the comments here, let's get real!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rsjsouza on July 29, 2017, 11:05:23 pm
What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity?  :-//

It's as bad as politics and religion on this forum. I don't see that kind of fervor in discussions about power supplies or even DMMs.
mtdoc, there's a lot more functionality to get right/wrong on a scope, thus it fuels very long discussions with repetitive arguments around here. That and the fact there's now a lot more choice at a lower cost, which will increase the number of different opinions and the natural desire to share individual experiences. I have seen previous incensed discussions about DMMs, especially when discussing safety, but they tend to vanish due to the simpler nature of the issues discussed - mostly hinged on opinion (DMM ergonomics, etc.) or simple lack of irrefutable evidence (when dealing with safety).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KE5FX on July 29, 2017, 11:19:10 pm
What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity?  :-//

Here's my guess: you can build a good power supply without using one in your day-to-day life.  You probably won't, but at least you theoretically could.  That's less true for DMMs but still not entirely off-base.  While responsive performance is important, a DMM is basically the sum of its specs.

A scope, though... that's different.  If you're a tech or hands-on EE, that's how you see the world.  No one who hasn't spent hundreds of hours using an oscilloscope in anger is ever going to build a good one.  When you see a lot of flaws in an otherwise-nice piece of gear that you suspect are only there because nobody at the company ever encountered them personally, it can be rather frustrating. 

I'm not saying that applies to R&S, Keysight, Tek, Rigol or any other vendor in particular, just pointing it out as a general answer to your question.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: blacksheeplogic on July 29, 2017, 11:54:06 pm
The people who designed this thing are some of the brightest in the world. What? They didn't examine it, weigh different parameters? You bet they did, I've been in there.  I think the grumblers should  apply for a job at R&S just to see their reaction, these guys get to pick the cream of crop, how many people here think they are in that group?

Being with the best and brightest don't mean it's going to be great, I've been on large projects with the brightest and best in their field. After spending ten's of million of dollars it's just another closed f'd-up project.

Sometimes we get it right, sometimes we don't. In this case they got it off the bench and it's going to be judged by the market not by those who worked on the project. As a product, long tern if the company determines it success or failure we may never know for sure.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on July 30, 2017, 07:25:56 am
What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity?  :-//
A scope, though... that's different.  If you're a tech or hands-on EE, that's how you see the world.  No one who hasn't spent hundreds of hours using an oscilloscope in anger is ever going to build a good one.  When you see a lot of flaws in an otherwise-nice piece of gear that you suspect are only there because nobody at the company ever encountered them personally, it can be rather frustrating. 
That and the fact some people sunk a lot of money into an oscilloscope so it has to be good and cannot possibly ever be a lemon. Kinda like the emperor's new clothes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on July 30, 2017, 08:03:20 am
I have it next to my MSO3104T, but I find I only use it if I need to see more channels, look at independent triggers, or in some decode circumstances (will be more once the fix the uart decode framing bug).
The reason is simply that I find the UI so annoyingly sluggish compared to the Keysight. I'm sure that users who've only used Rigol.Tek etc. Find it OK, but once you've been using the KS for a while it just feels slow, and the intensity grading is rather less refined.

I completely agree - I only use it for some decode stuff and high sensitive stuff like microphones.

I wrote R&S guys and complained about the sluggish UI some weeks ago. My (much hated by many) TEK MDO UI is more responsive doing protocol decoding than the R&S. I find myself having to push the screen several times to get it to react when the scope is "busy". And that was by decoding some 921600 bps serial..

It really needs some TLC in the software optimisation department and maybe some focus on multi-threading optimisation.

Don't get me wrong - I like the scope and UI. But I do not like the degrading performance of the UI and the bugs not fixed yet.

And compared the Keysight 3000 is much faster than both MDO and the R&S.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 30, 2017, 11:25:48 am
I have it next to my MSO3104T, but I find I only use it if I need to see more channels, look at independent triggers, or in some decode circumstances (will be more once the fix the uart decode framing bug).
The reason is simply that I find the UI so annoyingly sluggish compared to the Keysight. I'm sure that users who've only used Rigol.Tek etc. Find it OK, but once you've been using the KS for a while it just feels slow, and the intensity grading is rather less refined.

I completely agree - I only use it for some decode stuff and high sensitive stuff like microphones.

I wrote R&S guys and complained about the sluggish UI some weeks ago. My (much hated by many) TEK MDO UI is more responsive doing protocol decoding than the R&S. I find myself having to push the screen several times to get it to react when the scope is "busy". And that was by decoding some 921600 bps serial..

It really needs some TLC in the software optimisation department and maybe some focus on multi-threading optimisation.

Don't get me wrong - I like the scope and UI. But I do not like the degrading performance of the UI and the bugs not fixed yet.

And compared the Keysight 3000 is much faster than both MDO and the R&S.

You might want to try a mouse and see if that helps.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 30, 2017, 11:28:26 am
What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity?  :-//
A scope, though... that's different.  If you're a tech or hands-on EE, that's how you see the world.  No one who hasn't spent hundreds of hours using an oscilloscope in anger is ever going to build a good one.  When you see a lot of flaws in an otherwise-nice piece of gear that you suspect are only there because nobody at the company ever encountered them personally, it can be rather frustrating. 
That and the fact some people sunk a lot of money into an oscilloscope so it has to be good and cannot possibly ever be a lemon. Kinda like the emperor's new clothes.

Do you have an RTB2K?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 30, 2017, 12:16:27 pm
The people who designed this thing are some of the brightest in the world. What? They didn't examine it, weigh different parameters? You bet they did, I've been in there.  I think the grumblers should  apply for a job at R&S just to see their reaction, these guys get to pick the cream of crop, how many people here think they are in that group?

Being with the best and brightest don't mean it's going to be great, I've been on large projects with the brightest and best in their field. After spending ten's of million of dollars it's just another closed f'd-up project.

Sometimes we get it right, sometimes we don't. In this case they got it off the bench and it's going to be judged by the market not by those who worked on the project. As a product, long tern if the company determines it success or failure we may never know for sure.

Top people mean it has a better chance of fulfilling the design parameters. Have you ever designed a product or been on a team that brought a product to market from scratch? I have, I imagine Dave has.

OK, How many of you don't like this scope and have sold it, probably for a profit, on Ebay?

I got a relatively high end Agilent meter once, the fan noise drove me nuts, maybe my lab is quieter than most or for some reason the whine just was the wrong frequency for my ears. Doing low current testing it was sometimes on all day. I asked Agilent about it ONCE and they felt the level was not a problem.

I sold it! If something doesn't work for you it's useless, why keep it? Especially when you got a bargain on it like this scope and can make a profit. How many of you paid full price? So sell it and use the profit to get something that will work for you. How many people here who don't like this scope sold it or sent it back? I didn't see any used ones on Ebay.

I've seen a few guys, not too many, here griping about this scope being slow or whatever, well how much of your valuable time did you spend here complaining about it? Do something, your griping isn't getting you anywhere, you've told R&S what you thought, they'll fix it or for whatever reason they won't. Don't like the company, don't buy their test gear. Simple.

Do you want the problem or the solution?

What's intelligence? If you can do Laplace Transforms but you trip over your shoe laces every morning on the way to work are you intelligent? No, intelligence is the ability to constructively resolve one's problems.

You want to continue tripping over your shoe laces, have a ball!

It's a great scope, love it, I sold the scope this replaced, problem solved, end of story!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on July 30, 2017, 01:31:44 pm
Just curious, which option actual R&S people would prefer:
a) Unpleased person keeps asking for fix time to time
b) Unpleased person sells scope and moves to another brand
Not to mix with what's best for actual end user...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 30, 2017, 02:34:55 pm
Just curious, which option actual R&S people would prefer:
a) Unpleased person keeps asking for fix time to time
b) Unpleased person sells scope and moves to another brand
Not to mix with what's best for actual end user...

Actually it is good advise for end users. Tell R&S or whatever manufacturer, want you don't like -once is enough - if you still can't live with it, get rid of it.

Grumble here? After the first grumble it's all downhill.

Buck up and face life - 5 cents please.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on July 30, 2017, 05:26:57 pm
What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity?  :-//

It's as bad as politics and religion on this forum. I don't see that kind of fervor in discussions about power supplies or even DMMs.
mtdoc, there's a lot more functionality to get right/wrong on a scope, thus it fuels very long discussions with repetitive arguments around here. That and the fact there's now a lot more choice at a lower cost, which will increase the number of different opinions and the natural desire to share individual experiences. I have seen previous incensed discussions about DMMs, especially when discussing safety, but they tend to vanish due to the simpler nature of the issues discussed - mostly hinged on opinion (DMM ergonomics, etc.) or simple lack of irrefutable evidence (when dealing with safety).

Yes, good points and I agree.  But you've been here long enough to see that it's more than that for some people who seem to need to not only discuss the pros and cons of various scopes but who show up on every scope thread pushing their particular choice and criticizing all others.  It seems to be tribal in a way that is not true of other electronics topics on this forum.

Do you have an RTB2K?

No.  He recently purchased a GW Instek but for some reason seems to be on every scope thread criticizing any non-GW Instek scopes.  There's the naked emperor. :box:

Yes, it's human nature to embrace, defend and overlook the faults of whatever one has invested in, whether its a spouse, a sports team or I guess, an oscilloscope.  But it's been my observation on this forum for the past few years is that certain members feel the need not only to defend their purchase decisions but to criticize others purchase decisions - especially when it comes to scopes.  And I don't mean just discussing the pros and cons - I mean repeatedly and exclusively pointing out the flaws.

Defending ones spouse (or scope) is expected and proper IMO, repeatedly pointing out someone else's flaws is something else.

The truth is that EVERY scope has it's pros and cons and users make their choices based on which features and what trade offs make sense for them. 

This R&S scope has many pros: large touch screen, 10 bit ADC, deep memory, web interface and a generally very good and responsive user interface (even if not as responsive as the Keysight scopes).  Mike did a very thorough review that was generally very positive for these reasons.  It has some obvious flaws - lack of math functions, some software bugs (some have been addressed in FW updates, others not yet), etc.   

It's main competitor - the Keysight 2000x series scopes also have pros and cons. For example, they have the advantage of a snapier user interface with more mature, bug free firmware.  But its smaller, lower resolution,  non-touch screen and shallow memory depth are notable shortcomings.  Both are excellent scopes as are the comparable LeCroy scopes. Viva la difference.

The scopes from the Chinese makers Rigol, Siglent, and GW Instek, each have their pros and cons as well. Ultimately their shortcomings relative to the "A" brands are compensated for by lower price.   That trade off is a good one for most people - hence their popularity.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on July 30, 2017, 05:37:30 pm
No.  He recently purchased a GW Instek but for some reason seems to be on every scope thread criticizing any non-GW Instek scopes.
That is not true. Besides that I have purchased other oscilloscopes in the mean time and I've got quite a bit of hands on experience with a wide variety of scopes anyway  8) . I do have a business to run so I look at value for money / return on investment.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on July 30, 2017, 05:46:08 pm
Now in my practice (dev management of some e-commerce stuff with ~100k active customers) these are 3 types of displeased clients:

- "silent quitter", he does not like something, but keeps it secret and eventually runs away, possibly to some other service with million other flaws. This is worst type of customer because I do not even know what to improve. Also customer will probably not be happy also (because other services do have million of other flaws).
- "tells once" customer, better but I'm not sure if he really needs stuff or just nice to have, requests go to the end of todo-list, implementation long time or never. Customer will probably not be happy.
- "active maniac" type, usually small companies. If does not get improvements asks several times. Loyal customers. Not only they do get what they want but greatly help to improve service. Usually I give them some "extra candy" for effort and requests may even get to "now" todo-list because it make my job easier and keep costs down because paid staff has less thinking to do.

So yea, if you want no extra candy just make sure you quit on first bug ;) However if you report 10 and nothing is ever fixed then of course. Either your views are incompatible with dev manager views or product is actually hopeless :D

Edit: Also some companies use voting system for fixes/improvements. So again "active maniac" is good because he may complain/explain why on some forum also and others notice. If they are displeased alike and report, same problem gets many votes and hopefully fixed. So "active maniac" functions as "passive user activator". Yet again free testing & man hours for producer :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 30, 2017, 11:40:16 pm
Now in my practice (dev management of some e-commerce stuff with ~100k active customers) these are 3 types of displeased clients:

- "silent quitter", he does not like something, but keeps it secret and eventually runs away, possibly to some other service with million other flaws. This is worst type of customer because I do not even know what to improve. Also customer will probably not be happy also (because other services do have million of other flaws).
- "tells once" customer, better but I'm not sure if he really needs stuff or just nice to have, requests go to the end of todo-list, implementation long time or never. Customer will probably not be happy.
- "active maniac" type, usually small companies. If does not get improvements asks several times. Loyal customers. Not only they do get what they want but greatly help to improve service. Usually I give them some "extra candy" for effort and requests may even get to "now" todo-list because it make my job easier and keep costs down because paid staff has less thinking to do.

So yea, if you want no extra candy just make sure you quit on first bug ;) However if you report 10 and nothing is ever fixed then of course. Either your views are incompatible with dev manager views or product is actually hopeless :D

Edit: Also some companies use voting system for fixes/improvements. So again "active maniac" is good because he may complain/explain why on some forum also and others notice. If they are displeased alike and report, same problem gets many votes and hopefully fixed. So "active maniac" functions as "passive user activator". Yet again free testing & man hours for producer :-+

Actually I don't think it works that way. I've run businesses too. Someone registers a complaint, it gets noted. 100 other people  lodge the same complaint, now, depending on the percentages, we might know there's an issue to examine.

Some guy is an "active manic" I give him his money back and tell him to go elsewhere because you can bet he's an "active maniac"  more often than not.

"Free testing"? I'm  designing stuff, it takes time, patience and effort. Life is time what you do with your time you do with your life. I don't review equipment for free, it's a waste of my life and time and besides I find it boring, dead boring, and completely lacking creativity. I'd rather actually design something tangible, something built on creativity that's hopefully profitable. I've sent things out to beta testers but I chose them to fit within specific parameters. A bunch of guys on a forum is pot luck. Sure you might get people who actually know something but you'll also get - well pot luck.

If I buy a piece of equipment that doesn't measure up, the last thing I'm going to do is gripe to a bunch of people whose backgrounds I don't know and who can't do anything for me. I'm going to the source, if they can't resolve it, think I'm wrong or a problem doesn't exist then I'll decide what to do from there. If the RTB2K stunk in my view, and the rest of the world thought it was perfect it wouldn't matter to me one iota. I'd dump it.

I don't work for free and I don't give free reviews of equipment. I'm glad you like "free testers" but you should always keep in mind, you get what you pay for.

ps:
If I was your boss I'd probably fire you for what you just said!

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 30, 2017, 11:47:25 pm
No.  He recently purchased a GW Instek but for some reason seems to be on every scope thread criticizing any non-GW Instek scopes.
That is not true. Besides that I have purchased other oscilloscopes in the mean time and I've got quite a bit of hands on experience with a wide variety of scopes anyway  8) . I do have a business to run so I look at value for money / return on investment.

That must be some business! It looks like you spend your time on the EEV forum (12,000+ posts) and you're on a thread about a scope you don't even own! What do you get paid by the word?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KE5FX on July 30, 2017, 11:53:41 pm
No.  He recently purchased a GW Instek but for some reason seems to be on every scope thread criticizing any non-GW Instek scopes.
That is not true. Besides that I have purchased other oscilloscopes in the mean time and I've got quite a bit of hands on experience with a wide variety of scopes anyway  8) . I do have a business to run so I look at value for money / return on investment.

That must be some business! It looks like you spend your time on the EEV forum (12,000+ posts) and you're on a thread about a scope you don't even own! What do you get paid by the word?

Take care when you set out to hunt trolls, lest you become a troll.  And when you stare into the Internet, the Internet also stares into you.
- F. Nietzsche  :P
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 31, 2017, 12:10:52 am
No.  He recently purchased a GW Instek but for some reason seems to be on every scope thread criticizing any non-GW Instek scopes.
That is not true. Besides that I have purchased other oscilloscopes in the mean time and I've got quite a bit of hands on experience with a wide variety of scopes anyway  8) . I do have a business to run so I look at value for money / return on investment.

That must be some business! It looks like you spend your time on the EEV forum (12,000+ posts) and you're on a thread about a scope you don't even own! What do you get paid by the word?

Take care when you set out to hunt trolls, lest you become a troll.  And when you stare into the Internet, the Internet also stares into you.
- F. Nietzsche  :P

I think that was updated by his great nephew Frank Nietzsche:

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you or something along those lines.

But I like his interpretation -good point!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: exe on July 31, 2017, 07:09:13 am
If I was your boss I'd probably fire you for what you just said!

Oh, c'mon...

Just because you don't share someone's values does not mean you are right and the other guy is wrong. Also, he is from another domain ("dev management of some e-commerce stuff").

PS don't want to play "internet police", just don't like stupid offensive claims "I'd fire you! No, I'd fire you first!". Okay, I'm playing it  8)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on July 31, 2017, 07:52:31 am
I don't work for free and I don't give free reviews of equipment. I'm glad you like "free testers" but you should always keep in mind, you get what you pay for.

Strictly from T&M perspective: I see lots of activity around by highly professional T&M companies that try to connect with low-end customer but in general fail. Why? Because pro (designer) has no concept of whats going on in non-pro head. But non-pro buys the stuff so cannot be ignored or gear will stay on shelf. You think various reps hang here for fun only or strictly for sales work?

BTW I'm quite sure you use some open-source free software, not only tested but programmed for free by self-selected and highly non-professional people. Probably would fire those guys too if could ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on July 31, 2017, 07:57:24 am
I don't work for free and I don't give free reviews of equipment. I'm glad you like "free testers" but you should always keep in mind, you get what you pay for.

Strictly from T&M perspective: I see lots of activity around by highly professional T&M companies that try to connect with low-end customer but in general fail. Why? Because pro (designer) has no concept of whats going on in non-pro head. But non-pro buys the stuff so cannot be ignored or gear will stay on shelf. You think various reps hang here for fun only or strictly for sales work?
Besides that there are lots of people on this forum which are involved in making test equipment purchase decissions and/or giving advice on what to buy.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Markus@RohdeScopes on July 31, 2017, 10:59:49 am
Hi folks,

as promised two days ago, I had a short talk with the responsible product manager of the RTB. The next FW release will take place end of October this year. He told me, that our plan is three FW releases per year. The major focus off this next release is bug fixing.

I hope this helps

Markus

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 31, 2017, 11:31:16 am
Just curious, which option actual R&S people would prefer:
a) Unpleased person keeps asking for fix time to time
b) Unpleased person sells scope and moves to another brand
Not to mix with what's best for actual end user...

OK, that's not accurate:

b. Displeased person contacts manufacturer about anomalies in instrument manufacturer fails to address problems for whatever reason, maybe said person is the only one who finds the anomaly a problem? Whatever, problem is not addressed, displeased person decides to keep the instrument and live with problem or sell it.

What's best for end user is what each specific end user decides. It's his or her decision how to act just like it was his or her decision to buy the instrument in the first place.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on July 31, 2017, 11:52:09 am
Can we please stay on topic (R&S / RTB2004) here and move the other discussion to a new thread. Thanks
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 31, 2017, 12:03:49 pm
I don't work for free and I don't give free reviews of equipment. I'm glad you like "free testers" but you should always keep in mind, you get what you pay for.

Strictly from T&M perspective: I see lots of activity around by highly professional T&M companies that try to connect with low-end customer but in general fail. Why? Because pro (designer) has no concept of whats going on in non-pro head. But non-pro buys the stuff so cannot be ignored or gear will stay on shelf. You think various reps hang here for fun only or strictly for sales work?

BTW I'm quite sure you use some open-source free software, not only tested but programmed for free by self-selected and highly non-professional people. Probably would fire those guys too if could ;)

The manufacturer is in business to sell products. Period! IF what the manufacturer is selling caters to low end users than the intelligent choice is to target that demographic. Would a manufacturer selling a $100k instrument be highly concerned about hobbyists? Porbably not, because very few if any instruments will likely be sold to hobbyists.

Will hobbyists be buying a loaded RTB2K at $8k? Very unlikely, has anyone here griping done that? I'm guessing but maybe R&S gave these away for $2k to see what people who could afford them thought. Maybe they thought that students in institutions would be using these and doing this would give them some insight. Maybe this will make a better overall instrument and maybe it won't.
I don't care what they do or why. If it doesn't work for me, I'll, as I have done, tell R&S what I think, if I can't live with it I'll sell it. What I won't do is grumble about how R&S doesn't care about end users, doesn't address concerns, etc. It's counter productive. Period!

"BTW I'm quite sure you use some open-source free software, not only tested but programmed for free by self-selected and highly non-professional people. Probably would fire those guys too if could ;)"

I pay for most of my software. if, for example, my EDA program has bugs I contact tech support or the rep, if I constantly have unaddressed bugs I decide whether to keep it or evaluate other software. Investing time to learn "for free" software that easily could be abandoned for any number of reasons is in my view a bad idea and a waste of my energy and ,again, time.

The software I don't pay for is from manufacturers I trust, for example, I use Atmel Studio to program uCs.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rsjsouza on July 31, 2017, 12:04:28 pm
What is it about oscilloscopes that gets people so riled up, defensive, judgmental, and uppity?  :-//

It's as bad as politics and religion on this forum. I don't see that kind of fervor in discussions about power supplies or even DMMs.
mtdoc, there's a lot more functionality to get right/wrong on a scope, thus it fuels very long discussions with repetitive arguments around here. That and the fact there's now a lot more choice at a lower cost, which will increase the number of different opinions and the natural desire to share individual experiences. I have seen previous incensed discussions about DMMs, especially when discussing safety, but they tend to vanish due to the simpler nature of the issues discussed - mostly hinged on opinion (DMM ergonomics, etc.) or simple lack of irrefutable evidence (when dealing with safety).

Yes, good points and I agree.  But you've been here long enough to see that it's more than that for some people who seem to need to not only discuss the pros and cons of various scopes but who show up on every scope thread pushing their particular choice and criticizing all others.  It seems to be tribal in a way that is not true of other electronics topics on this forum.
I can attest to that - over the years attending this forum I see oscilloscope threads and electrical safety as the most contentious technical topics around here. I tend to see the best in people and attribute this to vigorous passion (and not commercial or other ulterior motive) that sometimes creates the conditions for ass horsery, but as you said certain folks take their passion to the next level and end up posting at Every. Single. Thread.

Now in my practice (dev management of some e-commerce stuff with ~100k active customers) these are 3 types of displeased clients:

- "silent quitter", he does not like something, but keeps it secret and eventually runs away, possibly to some other service with million other flaws. This is worst type of customer because I do not even know what to improve. Also customer will probably not be happy also (because other services do have million of other flaws).
- "tells once" customer, better but I'm not sure if he really needs stuff or just nice to have, requests go to the end of todo-list, implementation long time or never. Customer will probably not be happy.
- "active maniac" type, usually small companies. If does not get improvements asks several times. Loyal customers. Not only they do get what they want but greatly help to improve service. Usually I give them some "extra candy" for effort and requests may even get to "now" todo-list because it make my job easier and keep costs down because paid staff has less thinking to do.
I have seen many customers that somewhat fit into these types, but the lines are extremely blurred in my line of work. Since we can never do anything about #1 (nor even acknowledge their existence), out of these I can tell that #2 is the most common, but in my line of field we give the same priority to reports from both #2 and #3 as they may affect the product equally. Obviously the speed of implementation varies with the criticality of the issue reported and, if it is considered a new feature, it will be added on an over arching future release.

However, one aspect you are forgetting (and I think Robaroni somewhat pointed it out) is that you have to acknowledge (and be thankful, really) when folks report a bug or sometimes create a test case to reproduce it, since they are giving away their time to do it - regardless if they are #2 or #3. Obviously that I don't know what your field is, but I suspect that you may be creating many #1 customers if you keep lowering the priority of your #2 customer requests.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on July 31, 2017, 12:15:37 pm
Obviously that I don't know what your field is, but I suspect that you may be creating many #1 customers if you keep lowering the priority of your #2 customer requests.

"Lowering priority" goes only for feature requests that I (as system architect) do not find important or even reasonable. However if #3 types actively demand might acknowledge that they know their business / needs better and shall get what they want.
I'n T&M field can imagine how hard time some oldschool pros have with trend towards touchscreens ;) But eventually one succumbs to public demand. But hey, pros can still secretly implement mouse-support ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 31, 2017, 12:21:48 pm
I don't work for free and I don't give free reviews of equipment. I'm glad you like "free testers" but you should always keep in mind, you get what you pay for.

Strictly from T&M perspective: I see lots of activity around by highly professional T&M companies that try to connect with low-end customer but in general fail. Why? Because pro (designer) has no concept of whats going on in non-pro head. But non-pro buys the stuff so cannot be ignored or gear will stay on shelf. You think various reps hang here for fun only or strictly for sales work?
Besides that there are lots of people on this forum which are involved in making test equipment purchase decissions and/or giving advice on what to buy.

OK, I give you advice to buy a RTB2K, maybe I'm even an expert. Does that mean it's good advice for you specifically? What if you buy it and think it's the worst scope you ever bought? What's your recourse, go back to the person who gave the advice? What's that going to do for you?


Here's what you guys should do:

Get 50 people in a room and try to please every one of them. Tell me how that works out for you.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 31, 2017, 12:46:01 pm
If I was your boss I'd probably fire you for what you just said!

Oh, c'mon...

Just because you don't share someone's values does not mean you are right and the other guy is wrong. Also, he is from another domain ("dev management of some e-commerce stuff").

PS don't want to play "internet police", just don't like stupid offensive claims "I'd fire you! No, I'd fire you first!". Okay, I'm playing it  8)

There's a reason I said that. He attempted to add weight to his opinion by stating his 'credentials', I used that statement to deflate that. If you have something to say than say it, if you need to tell me who you are means that what you have to say probably won't stand on its own merits.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on July 31, 2017, 12:57:43 pm
if you need to tell me who you are means that what you have to say probably won't stand on its own merits.

Says "Retired EE" :palm:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on July 31, 2017, 02:14:10 pm
if you need to tell me who you are means that what you have to say probably won't stand on its own merits.

Says "Retired EE" :palm:

A retired guy who calls himself "Robaroni" with a picture of his cat who never once said, "I'm an EE ......"

Give me something to work with here!

You get the question too. Do you own the RTB2K? Can you give me the model number of a mouse that works with this scope that you personally use so I can test it to see if it works for me?

I didn't think so.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kwass on July 31, 2017, 02:30:26 pm
Hi folks,

as promised two days ago, I had a short talk with the responsible product manager of the RTB. The next FW release will take place end of October this year. He told me, that our plan is three FW releases per year. The major focus off this next release is bug fixing.

I hope this helps

Markus

Thank you for the update!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on July 31, 2017, 05:10:21 pm
Thanks from me too.

Any further news on schedules/plans for updates will always be welcome. I'll also send through any bugs i find through to the R&S contact I've been given (nothing I have found is major, and most have already been sent into R&S).

Please take the comments I have made regarding frustrations and annoyances as my personal feedback on what I think could improve the instrument for myself and potential future customers. In general I think R&S have done a great job with this scope - it offers things others don't (e.g. 10 bit, big screen) and is fantastic compared to the Rigol and Tektronix scopes I have used in the past.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on July 31, 2017, 06:04:57 pm
Yes - danke for the info.  Any and all communication appreciated!

I'll look forward to the triannual FW updates.  In the meantime I'm thoroughly enjoying this excellent scope.  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Simon on July 31, 2017, 06:34:25 pm
Can we stop please, or shall I stop the thread, this is going well out of control and is not useful anymore......
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on August 01, 2017, 12:43:37 pm
Used one on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/352129570839?ul_noapp=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/352129570839?ul_noapp=true)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on August 01, 2017, 02:24:18 pm
Hi Folks - sorry, I've been away from my PC for a couple weeks on vacation and this thread exploded.  A couple comments:

1.  Thanks Markus for the update.  R&S is not known for abandoning products - I think everyone can feel comfortable that we will definitely continue to update them.  We may just not move as fast as we'd all like (especially over the summer months).

2.  I agree with Simon's comment - I appreciate the feedback (positive and negative), but lets try to stay on topic.

3.  I find it intriguing that people keep comparing the RTB2000 to Keysight's x3000T and Tek's MDO3000.  It was not targeted at that class, but I can see why it might be compared.  And while you can option the RTB2000 up to ~$6,000 due to the 300MHz (no one would ever option it to $8K as you can save significant money with the package bundle versus buying each individual item for free), please keep in mind it also starts at $1,370 and has similar pricing to the 2000X and DPO2000 (while offering a 10-bit ADC, lower noise, touch, a much larger display, significantly deeper memory, etc).  Because it has so much HW capability, I also definitely understand the desire to add more SW capability like advanced math (that even lower cost scopes have) and rest assured that feedback has been passed on.

Now that I'm back in the groove, I'll try to do a better job of keeping you all up-to-date and sending your feedback on to the factory team (although as you can tell they also read this thread too).

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on August 01, 2017, 02:34:43 pm
Hi Folks - sorry, I've been away from my PC for a couple weeks on vacation and this thread exploded.  A couple comments:

1.  Thanks Markus for the update.  R&S is not known for abandoning products - I think everyone can feel comfortable that we will definitely continue to update them.  We may just not move as fast as we'd all like (especially over the summer months).

2.  I agree with Simon's comment - I appreciate the feedback (positive and negative), but lets try to stay on topic.

3.  I find it intriguing that people keep comparing the RTB2000 to Keysight's x3000T and Tek's MDO3000.  It was not targeted at that class, but I can see why it might be compared.  And while you can option the RTB2000 up to ~$6,000 due to the 300MHz (no one would ever option it to $8K as you can save significant money with the package bundle versus buying each individual item for free), please keep in mind it also starts at $1,370 and has similar pricing to the 2000X and DPO2000 (while offering a 10-bit ADC, lower noise, touch, a much larger display, significantly deeper memory, etc).  Because it has so much HW capability, I also definitely understand the desire to add more SW capability like advanced math (that even lower cost scopes have) and rest assured that feedback has been passed on.

Not that I'm back in the groove, I'll try to do a better job of keeping you all up-to-date and sending your feedback on to the factory team (although as you can tell they also read this thread too).

-Rich

Thanks Rich!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mrwilby on August 01, 2017, 04:33:31 pm
Hi folks,

as promised two days ago, I had a short talk with the responsible product manager of the RTB. The next FW release will take place end of October this year. He told me, that our plan is three FW releases per year. The major focus off this next release is bug fixing.

I hope this helps

Markus

Markus, it's really great news to hear R&S is committed to supporting the RTB. I am extremely happy with mine and am looking forward to fixes and improvements over the coming months ahead. Thanks for engaging with the community!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on August 04, 2017, 11:29:17 am
 Hello.
 I have some questions about RTB2004. I used scope about week and have good impression – this is the better thing which I saw.

1.   The arb. generator without constant slew rate (for the rectangle waveform). Why?
2.   What should be a signal after probe compensation? The probe calibrator allows ambiguity. Both pics are valid.
3.   At the 50ms and more timebase the memory segment #0 was look very strange.
4.   Sometimes Pattern Gen menu was unavailable. I can't find reasons.
 
 Thanks.
 Mike.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on August 04, 2017, 11:34:51 am
 Please explain me FFT behavior and how I must use it. The FFT function is very important for me. Now I see unexpected and unreliable result.
 Unfortunately, I see internal distortion (level dependent) as in my old Tek

 Thanks.
 Mike.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on August 04, 2017, 11:38:29 am
 This is the correct position of the front cover.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on August 04, 2017, 04:24:27 pm
Hello.
 I have some questions about RTB2004. I used scope about week and have good impression – this is the better thing which I saw.

1.   The arb. generator without constant slew rate (for the rectangle waveform). Why?
2.   What should be a signal after probe compensation? The probe calibrator allows ambiguity. Both pics are valid.
3.   At the 50ms and more timebase the memory segment #0 was look very strange.
4.   Sometimes Pattern Gen menu was unavailable. I can't find reasons.
 
 Thanks.
 Mike.
The first picture looks like a better probe compensation than the second. I find it is best to work with both high-frequency adjustments more than once to get the best waveform.

As for item 3, this is a bug that I have also found, I have reported it but it would be good to send your picture to R&S too. I did not measure the timebase where this error started, but you have, which might be useful to them to help fix it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on August 05, 2017, 03:10:08 am
Hi MikeP - I'll talk with the factory and get back with you on your questions.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on August 06, 2017, 11:31:04 pm
Thanks Markus!  If R&S can get the majority of that pile of bugs reported back on the March firmware fixed the scope would regain its "killer" title, IMHO.  I agree that the UI needs a swift kick on backside. If not possible with the existing RTB hardware then hopefully for v2.0. The version that gets those necessary advanced math functions added. :)

I'm still enjoying my RTB2004 much more than my previous Rigol, so it is serving the purpose, bugs and all.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on August 08, 2017, 01:36:01 pm
Hello.
 I have some questions about RTB2004. I used scope about week and have good impression – this is the better thing which I saw.

1.   The arb. generator without constant slew rate (for the rectangle waveform). Why?
2.   What should be a signal after probe compensation? The probe calibrator allows ambiguity. Both pics are valid.
3.   At the 50ms and more timebase the memory segment #0 was look very strange.
4.   Sometimes Pattern Gen menu was unavailable. I can't find reasons.
 
 Thanks.
 Mike.
Hi Mike - I received some feedback on your questions:

1.  Currently the slewrate changes based on the frequency of the rectangle wfm.  The team plans to change this to the fastest possible slew rate independent of the used frequency in a future update.
2.  Your first picture is the correct one (you want the shortest rise time without overshoot).  If you were able to get the second one in the green area of the probe adjustment tool, please let us know (we haven't been able to recreate that). 
3.  This is a bug and is in our system for future updates.
4.  This is a bug and is already fixed in the next version of firmware.

-Rich

Edit:  Missed answering #2 originally.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on August 08, 2017, 01:38:24 pm
Please explain me FFT behavior and how I must use it. The FFT function is very important for me. Now I see unexpected and unreliable result.
 Unfortunately, I see internal distortion (level dependent) as in my old Tek

 Thanks.
 Mike.
Hi Mike - one more update on your FFT questions.  This is also a bug.  It doesn't appear on channel 1 (only channel 2 and only when just channel 2 is being used), so there is a relatively simple workaround.  It has been added to our defect tracking service for a future FW update. 

Thanks for the feedback!

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on August 10, 2017, 07:11:36 am
 Dear Rich.

 I’m grateful to you. I know RTB is very good instrument. And it will be better. We will wait.

These are three collages with various results of measurements of the same signal. You can see the difference between the channels also. A signal source is the built-in generator. The scope was calibrated. By the way, calibration has impact on FFT-result.
 
 I hope it will be useful. The FFT has ambiguity for me. I will be grateful for any help. Unfortunately FFT still unusable function without rejector filter. And thanks for info about 2-ch.

 Thanks.
 Mike.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on August 10, 2017, 07:13:18 am
 The probe. I not have video but all absolutely honestly. This variant is valid also.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on August 10, 2017, 07:14:40 am
 Info about the internal generator. It has very hard spectrum at the high output amplitude. Up to the 2-3Vp-p output much shorter. As example 30Vp-p output from G3-120 and 5Vp-p from RTB gen.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: markb82 on August 16, 2017, 10:23:40 pm
I was wondering if the promo deal will come up again in the future?  I couldn't afford it at the time :palm: and my TDS-220 is getting long in the tooth.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on August 19, 2017, 06:53:14 pm
I cannot imagine that this will come up again from all that they said here in the forum, but Rich pointed out that R&S has several promos over the course of time. Also as they sell this product via other companies, these might have their own promos as well. In the German speaking area for example I just saw that datatec seems to have a summer vacation offer:
http://www.datatec.de/AC00375-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2000-Oszilloskop-MSO-Software-Paket.htm#detail_text (http://www.datatec.de/AC00375-Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2000-Oszilloskop-MSO-Software-Paket.htm#detail_text)
Not quite the original deal, but still pretty good

having used my unit now since some months, my recommendation: go for it, if you can afford it. Definitely worth it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: markb82 on August 19, 2017, 07:53:44 pm
Thanks for the info ws.  Do you know, or does anyone know if the RTB2K-74 package includes 300 MHz probes for when it is upgraded to 300 MHz later?  My options are:

1. Get the RTB2K-74 and upgrade later (or hack it, lets be honest).
2. Get the RTB2K-COM4 from eBay, looks like people are reselling them at about $3500 USD, which is a shame cause I don't think R&S created the promo so that people would resell them at a profit. :(
3. Get a used MSOX2024A from eBay for about $1800 USD, which is an excellent scope as well.

Any thoughts on the MSOX2024A vs the RTB2Ks?  My impression (from reading the forum and youtube reviews) is that the R&S has a much nicer screen with more real estate but a more sluggish GUI.  The R&S also has a significant memory depth advantage.

Mark
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on August 19, 2017, 08:09:28 pm
Thanks for the info ws.  Do you know, or does anyone know if the RTB2K-74 package includes 300 MHz probes for when it is upgraded to 300 MHz later? 
Yep, as I didn't by the intro deal (Austria!) but a normal unit and obviously didn't go for the full bandwidth (no need for me), I can confirm, that it comes with the exact same probe as the 300 MHz unit (see also datsheet) and they are speced for the full bandwidth.

Any thoughts on the MSOX2024A vs the RTB2Ks?  My impression (from reading the forum and youtube reviews) is that the R&S has a much nicer screen with more real estate but a more sluggish GUI.  The R&S also has a significant memory depth advantage.

I only had the chance to use the Keysight boxes once at a fair, but my impression is
MSO2000x vs RTB2000 -> RTB2000 is almost a different league and it is almost unfair to compare it. Just wins in any aspect. But it is roughly the same price as the MSO2000X (at least in Austria)
MSO3000XT vs RTB2000 -> the MSO3000XT has a slight advantage in features as is has 50 Ohm , probe interface and stuff like this, but also costs about 15% more (at least here in Austria)and it essentially has no memory. Plus: I don't need nor could I afford those gimmicks
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: markb82 on August 19, 2017, 08:32:18 pm
Thanks that's excellent that R&S gives the full bandwidth probes  :D  .   My former roommate was a EE PhD student and he swore by R&S equipment especially VNAs and spectrum analysers (he is an RF guy).

Out of curiosity which package did you buy?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on August 20, 2017, 08:17:14 pm
Out of curiosity which package did you buy?
I just got the logic channels (Rtb-b1) in addition
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on August 22, 2017, 02:33:15 pm
Also have a look at RTB-PK1, as i mentioned before:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg1266391/#msg1266391 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg1266391/#msg1266391)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on August 28, 2017, 04:09:18 am
A few issues that may not have been reported:
* Protocol decoding for Parallel and Parallel Clocked is only available using the Logic Channels (not the 4 analog channels). Is this limitation necessary?
* When selecting "Parallel" or "Parallel Clocked" in the "Protocol" menu then clicking on "Configuration"and "Bus Width", I haven't found a way to change the bus width using the touch screen or the web UI. It seems doable only through the "Analysis" physical knob.
* User Manual ver2 p115, there is a typo "Troggering on parallel buses is not possible."
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on September 01, 2017, 10:20:05 am
 These are some examples of FFT function. I think for precision measurements this device is unsuitable.
 The signal source is G3-118. The first harmonic was suppressed by rejector (- 100db). The second harmonic - 106 dB. For me it is physical vacuum.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on September 01, 2017, 10:27:55 am
 And how this signal looks on the FFT screen. Settings and timebase do not matter. We see nonexistent distortions. In one form or another.

 Dear Rich and Markus - whether there is an opportunity to correct a situation and to add a logarithmic scale for mode FFT?

 Thanks.
 Mike.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fgrir on September 01, 2017, 06:16:36 pm
These are some examples of FFT function. I think for precision measurements this device is unsuitable.
 The signal source is G3-118. The first harmonic was suppressed by rejector (- 100db). The second harmonic - 106 dB. For me it is physical vacuum.

The channel-to-channel  isolation spec is only 50dB, so looking at the low signal on channel one with the 10V source on channel 4 is bound to give you problems.  For the rest, it looks to me like you are getting 60dB+ dynamic range out of a 10-bit device, just how good do you expect it to be?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on September 01, 2017, 07:09:23 pm
These are some examples of FFT function. I think for precision measurements this device is unsuitable.
 The signal source is G3-118. The first harmonic was suppressed by rejector (- 100db). The second harmonic - 106 dB. For me it is physical vacuum.

The channel-to-channel  isolation spec is only 50dB, so looking at the low signal on channel one with the 10V source on channel 4 is bound to give you problems.  For the rest, it looks to me like you are getting 60dB+ dynamic range out of a 10-bit device, just how good do you expect it to be?

It says a lot that the expectations for FFT functionality in an oscilloscope are so high (and perhaps unrealistic).  If frequency domain information is that critical to someone, an oscilloscope is the wrong tool.  But it is a nice bonus that DSO's have come so far and are now including usable (if not perfect) FFT functionality.   There are some bugs here and I'm sure R&S will continue to fine tune this scopes FFT software, but overall I'm pretty impressed with it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on September 01, 2017, 10:12:32 pm
These are some examples of FFT function. I think for precision measurements this device is unsuitable.
 The signal source is G3-118. The first harmonic was suppressed by rejector (- 100db). The second harmonic - 106 dB. For me it is physical vacuum.

The channel-to-channel  isolation spec is only 50dB, so looking at the low signal on channel one with the 10V source on channel 4 is bound to give you problems.  For the rest, it looks to me like you are getting 60dB+ dynamic range out of a 10-bit device, just how good do you expect it to be?

It says a lot that the expectations for FFT functionality in an oscilloscope are so high (and perhaps unrealistic).  If frequency domain information is that critical to someone, an oscilloscope is the wrong tool.  But it is a nice bonus that DSO's have come so far and are now including usable (if not perfect) FFT functionality.   There are some bugs here and I'm sure R&S will continue to fine tune this scopes FFT software, but overall I'm pretty impressed with it.

Me too....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on September 02, 2017, 10:18:46 pm
I know, you have never seen this on a modern scope ...
 :popcorn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZFsFARAv8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZFsFARAv8)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 03, 2017, 09:46:18 am
I know, you have never seen this on a modern scope ...

https://twitter.com/mikelectricstuf/status/846419601529430019?lang=en-gb
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on September 03, 2017, 10:32:42 am
I know, you have never seen this on a modern scope ...

https://twitter.com/mikelectricstuf/status/846419601529430019?lang=en-gb
Thats a real bug. In xy-mode switch from sample to average, and see what happens.
edit: this scope is very useful...  ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on September 07, 2017, 12:53:44 pm
These are some examples of FFT function. I think for precision measurements this device is unsuitable.
 The signal source is G3-118. The first harmonic was suppressed by rejector (- 100db). The second harmonic - 106 dB. For me it is physical vacuum.

The channel-to-channel  isolation spec is only 50dB, so looking at the low signal on channel one with the 10V source on channel 4 is bound to give you problems.  For the rest, it looks to me like you are getting 60dB+ dynamic range out of a 10-bit device, just how good do you expect it to be?


 Thanks! Good idea. To my surprise, I found a signal from the built-in generator - a spurious signal is present even when the generator is disconnected from the inputs! Otherwise, the isolation of the channels is absolutely perfect. I hope that it is possible to get a dynamic range 90+ dB.

 I wanted to show INTERNAL distortions. And I want to know - what is the nature of this phenomenon. In other matters, the RTB surpasses my requirements. Every contact with the device is fun.  :-+

 I think this is HW problem. If in the future the defect is eliminated, then I will buy another RTB.
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fgrir on September 07, 2017, 03:24:33 pm
I hope that it is possible to get a dynamic range 90+ dB.
I think that may be an unrealistic expectation for standard oscilloscopes.  I would suggest that you might really want to look for a dynamic signal analyzer or a soundcard-based solution, although this picoscope looks like it might be up to your needs:
https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/4262/picoscope-4262-specifications (https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/4262/picoscope-4262-specifications)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on September 08, 2017, 04:13:00 pm
Note: New user manual v04
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/r/rtb_1/RTB_UserManual_en_04.pdf

347>509 pages (!)

Haven't looked in details, but there is quite a bit of reorganization, some more general setup, some beefed-up sections and new sections on mask testing, FFT, voltmeter and counter apps, logic analyzer and the function/pattern generators.

I don't see anything obviously missing anymore  :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on September 18, 2017, 01:16:09 am
"These are some examples of FFT function. I think for precision measurements this device is unsuitable."

Hm .. precision here means dynamic. The limit for that are the usual noise sources of the scope especially quantization noise. Therefore an 8 bit scope has a max. dynamic of 48dB, a 10 bit scope like the RTB2000 60dB. How much less the real dynamic is below these max. values depends on the actual ENOB. Typically this is 6.5 bit for an 8bit scope having therefore about 40dB dynamic limit only due to quantization noise.

That means that the RTB2000 actually has the best dynamics than any other DSO in that price class (how much depends on the ENOB that I don't know) because it is the only 10bit scope in this price class in the market (and latest Owon models with up to 14bit). We had to wait for more than two decades that a vendor breaks this 8bit curse. It could be compared to the invention of the fastest car and then making it look bad because it cannot fly. The aeroplanes in this example are the spectrum analyzers that have much better dynamics.

But also with a DSO you can get better dynamics:

1. At a few kHz you can use the decimation/boxcar mode, that increases vertical resolution / reduces quantization noise and therefore increases your dynamic. I have no RTB2000 but I expect at least from theory that you can use 16bit vertical resolution mode at these low frequencies reducing quantization noise (theoretical upper limit not regarding unknown ENOB) to 96dB. In general boxcar reduces samplerate by a factor 4 per 1 bit less quantization noise.

2. Additionally you can reduce noise / increase dynamics by averaging several consecutive measurements, which should be possible when using a function generator as signal source. This reduces noise by sqrt(count). E.g. 100 counts give you 20dB lower noise.

Because I don't know the actual ENOB it would also be interesting for me, how far away the RTB2000 models are from these theoretical upper limits.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on September 18, 2017, 07:34:56 am
 Hello Rich and Marcus.
 
 This is another small bug. When the Russian language is active, then the keyboard loses the MIN and MAX parameters.

 Thanks.
 Mike.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on September 18, 2017, 04:43:38 pm
Some more bugs to report (none are show stoppers):

- Probe de-skew doesn't apply to trigger point, only waveform. If triggered off a de-skewed channel then the trigger appears in the wrong place.
- Cursors move the wrong one (Y) in X cursor mode at first
- Cursors menu sometimes shows wrong channel selected
- FFT max hold corruption on boot (very minor, just looks bad when booting and FFT max hold is enabled)
- Ref waveform doesn't seem to line up exactly with trace it is copied from (vertically with spectrum, horizontally with time domain view)
- When going into quickmeas and changing acquisition mode for one channel, doesn't seem to always apply to other channels when exiting quickmeas
- Pattern gen output can get stuck high when turning off
- In history mode, I disabled channels 1, 3 and 4 to get a better view of channel 2 in a past acquisition, but when re-enabling the channels to look at other captures only channel 1 appeared again correctly, 3 and 4 were flat (see "history bug 2.png")

This list is just my notes I made at the time of finding each issue; Rich/Markus - please PM me if clarification is required for anything.

When the next firmware is released a comprehensive list of fixed and remaining known issues would be very useful to let users know what they should report and what is already known (first firmware release had a list but it was much shorter list than expected).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on September 18, 2017, 05:39:48 pm
 ;DI guess that's the best documented bug report they ever got  :-DD
Hello Rich and Marcus.
 
 This is another small bug. When the Russian language is active, then the keyboard loses the MIN and MAX parameters.

 Thanks.
 Mike.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on September 18, 2017, 09:46:43 pm
Did I miss Dave's extensive review concerning the RTB2000? I remember that such an extensive review needs be carefully prepared. Now six month after the release of this scope milestone (not yet another boring 8 bit ...)  this means that we will see the most extensive scope review that was ever made?  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on September 19, 2017, 09:20:11 am
 Dear vokars.

 Thanks for your thoughts and recommendations. Actually averaging (and other focuses) can reduce noise level very significantly. The main problem is internal distortions of the oscillograph. Also this distortion has changeable structure. I do not understand the nature of this phenomenon.
 The screenshots given above are spectrograms of very clean signal which contains -110dB of second harmonic. And what you see?
 I want to believe - this effect can be eliminated. Let’s make RTB Special Edition!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on September 19, 2017, 02:22:56 pm
"The main problem is internal distortions of the oscillograph."

If you need very good THD, I recommend audio hardware. Even my 10 years old RME Fireface 400 has a THD<-110dB with max. sample rate of 192kHz and 24bit resolution, 8 channels.




Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on September 19, 2017, 06:06:07 pm
" Also this distortion has changeable structure. "

1. The quantization of a signal is a distortion by design. The quantization error can be regarded as a sample-dependent change of the amplitude sometimes called granular distortion, because it is larger if the ADC has less bit.

2. This means that a) granular distortion changes over time, because the quantization error occurs as quantization noise and b) is in the order of the quantization noise.

Both a) and b) seems to be in line with your observation.

3. If my assumption is true, could be verified by using the 16bit HighRes (some screenshots have the HighRes label, how many bit?) mode or averaging over time. Of course there are serveral other non-linearities in the input circuits that cause additional distortions but probabely do not cause this time changing pattern as you have observed. Did you give it a try and did it help to reduce the distortions (I cannot do it by myself, because I have no RTB2000)?

Addendum: In http://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-085.pdf (http://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-085.pdf)  chapter "SPURIOUS FREE DYNAMIC RANGE CONSIDERATIONS IN DDS SYSTEMS" similiar effects are discussed for DDS oscillators. It is explained, that the quantization error correlation can be reduced by dithering and by a change of the samplerate/signalfrequency ratio.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on September 20, 2017, 12:03:14 pm
Some more bugs to report (none are show stoppers):

  Mr. Hydron makes a great job. Thanks. This is additional info about the history bug. After the off/on switching we can get surprising waveform in the some segments. The 3 or 4 channels will intact if it trigger's source.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on September 20, 2017, 12:27:37 pm
If you need very good THD, I recommend audio hardware. Even my 10 years old RME Fireface 400 has a THD<-110dB with max. sample rate of 192kHz and 24bit resolution, 8 channels.

 Thanks vokars.

 In general, ALL combinations have been tried - it's impossible to go below about -70dB. The HIREZ mode does not indicate the number of bits and has no significant advantages.

 For measurements I use an external notch. Very cheap and unambiguous method.

 I well understand some groundlessness of my expectations. I do not like a lot of equipment. And the RTB is very-very close to my understanding of the ideal device.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydrawerk on September 20, 2017, 02:58:20 pm
I know, you have never seen this on a modern scope ...
 :popcorn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZFsFARAv8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZFsFARAv8)
Hello.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32tFNiJP7hw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32tFNiJP7hw)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on September 21, 2017, 05:03:06 am
I know, you have never seen this on a modern scope ...
 :popcorn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZFsFARAv8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ZFsFARAv8)
Hello.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32tFNiJP7hw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32tFNiJP7hw)

Yeah, hello.
The reason behind is, that the RTB makes this by itself. There is no other signal coming in but doing this external. And this shows another real bug from this scope:
Quote
Thats a real bug. In xy-mode switch from sample to average, and see what happens.
;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on September 23, 2017, 05:21:33 pm
Another bug in cursor settings:
horizontal and vertical setting reversed to actual measurement
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydrawerk on September 23, 2017, 08:47:16 pm
Yeah, hello.
The reason behind is, that the RTB makes this by itself. There is no other signal coming in but doing this external. And this shows another real bug from this scope:
Quote
Thats a real bug. In xy-mode switch from sample to average, and see what happens.
;)
Oh, I did not know that.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on September 24, 2017, 02:37:30 am
Thanks everyone for the inputs - I’ll add them to our tracker.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on September 25, 2017, 07:56:33 am
 A little bit of diligence and I got a scopecase. It is created on the SKB1914-08 basis. The suitcase holds both digital probes, five analog probes, additional cables, a multimeter and a box for tools/parts. The oscilloscope can work inside, there is unobstructed ventilation.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on September 25, 2017, 07:58:24 am
Ironically, when photographing the oscilloscope, a small defect was found. At a 20 ?s timebase the zoom has an error. This is manifested if the channel operates without its own pair (1-2 or 3-4).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on September 25, 2017, 03:45:40 pm
I'm guess I'm missing your error. I see your 20uS/div waveform, then your zoom at 10nS/div. your 10nS/div has a little ring on it then looks flat out till at least 60nS. Problem is, we don't know what happens after that ( except that it falls at some point ). To me, it looks like that 60 nS zoom you have can fit on the peak of the 20uS trace you have. Same can be said of what's leading up to that.

Did I miss what you are seeing?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on September 25, 2017, 07:25:00 pm
Is the bug you are referring to the horizontal offset from the trigger position? If so, are you using probe de-skew? I found that using de-skew only moved the waveform but not the trigger, causing this kind of issue (referred to in my previous bug-list post).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on September 25, 2017, 08:04:05 pm
Trigger skew looks like it. Looking at things again, the trigger level looks to be set at 0V but the zoomed view is skewed 4 nS.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on September 25, 2017, 08:19:16 pm
Just using channel one I could see the same offset but I also noticed that sometimes there seemed to be no offset. I captured two scope shots, one showing the offset and one with infinite persistence on showing the proper timing and with offset. Notice nothing in between.

 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on September 26, 2017, 10:29:39 am
 
Just using channel one I could see the same offset but I also noticed that sometimes there seemed to be no offset.

 
Yes, this offset is 4ns, rarely everything is fine. And no, I did not use de-skew.
 Everything falls into place if you turn on the second channel. Try it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on September 26, 2017, 01:43:35 pm
Ironically, when photographing the oscilloscope, a small defect was found. At a 20 ?s timebase the zoom has an error. This is manifested if the channel operates without its own pair (1-2 or 3-4).
Hi MikeP - this is a bug that is fixed in the next release.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on September 26, 2017, 08:08:56 pm
Thanks for your engagement Rich.

Any ETA for the next firmware update release?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on September 26, 2017, 09:42:24 pm
Thanks for your engagement Rich.

Any ETA for the next firmware update release?
Sure - I enjoy this forum, so it is easy to engage when I know an answer.

And I knew someone was going to ask when to expect the FW  :-DD  I always hate to give a prediction, but I believe we'll see a new FW in October (which could mean the end of October - all depends on how testing goes). 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on October 06, 2017, 12:57:41 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxjo46haYSE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxjo46haYSE)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on October 16, 2017, 07:10:55 pm
Michael is doing a series of extensive_ videos demonstrating the RTB2004. Check out his channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSz58j9B2Pj-1pA8CPFUuMw (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSz58j9B2Pj-1pA8CPFUuMw)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Ghislain on October 16, 2017, 10:03:09 pm
I wish R&S had added a VESA mount but may be someone else here has a brilliant DIY solution?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on October 17, 2017, 11:08:28 am
I wish R&S had added a VESA mount but may be someone else here has a brilliant DIY solution?

There is a Rackmount Kit available.
Looks like if it´s mounted extern to the housing without opening the device.
May Rich has more information....

http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-19Zoll-Rackmountkit-Oszilloskop-RTB2000.htm#detail_text (http://www.datatec.de/Rohde-19Zoll-Rackmountkit-Oszilloskop-RTB2000.htm#detail_text)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 17, 2017, 11:17:22 am
I wish R&S had added a VESA mount but may be someone else here has a brilliant DIY solution?
The back case feels too flimsy to take a mount- you could probably make a mount from an angled metal plate for it to sit on.
maybe see if there is a VESA keyboard shelf that could be adapted?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Markus@RohdeScopes on October 17, 2017, 11:44:45 am
I wish R&S had added a VESA mount but may be someone else here has a brilliant DIY solution?

Hi Ghislain,

please send me a personal message and I will send you the mounting instruction for the ZZA-RTB. It's not the direct answer to your question, but you can see the mounting procedure of the RTB in a rackmount kit.

Markus
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Ghislain on October 17, 2017, 07:33:03 pm
The back case feels too flimsy to take a mount- you could probably make a mount from an angled metal plate for it to sit on.
maybe see if there is a VESA keyboard shelf that could be adapted?

From the pictures it looks like the honeycomb like structure allows for great airflow but does not necessarily support structural rigidness of the enclosure, let alone attachment of a VESA adapter.
The VESA keyboard shelf is actually a very good idea, I found this: https://www.amazon.com/SDS-Aluminum-Keyboard-Mounting-Manufactured/dp/B00ZGFYJQK (https://www.amazon.com/SDS-Aluminum-Keyboard-Mounting-Manufactured/dp/B00ZGFYJQK) which seems to fit the bill.
Now it is about finding a means of safely securing the scope to the shelf, the last thing you want is that while moving the shelf, the scope slips off or topples over :palm:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: emax on October 18, 2017, 03:54:44 pm
I did it: Two weeks to wait for my

- RTB2004, 300MHz
- RTB-B1 - 16 Kanal Mixed Signal
- RTB-B6 - 25 MHz Arbiträr Generator
- RTB-K1 - I2C/SPI Decode
- RTB-K2 - UART/RS-232/RS-422/RS-485 Decode
- RTB-K3 - CAN/LIN Dekodierung und
- RTB-K15 - History & Segmented Memory

WooHoo!  :)  :)  :)



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: emax on October 18, 2017, 05:19:46 pm
Concerning the 'glossy' screen (haven't read all the posts but I've seen some commentary about it):

In this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxjo46haYSE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxjo46haYSE)

one can see a perfectly reflection-free screen on the RTB2000. At 1:05 you see which anti-glare cover was applied. I've ordered exactly this product at Amazon Germany (https://www.amazon.de/Generation-Displayschutzfolie-Blendschutz-Reinigungstuch-Applikationskarte/dp/B01AD9R2X0/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1507992660&sr=8-3-fkmr0&keywords=hp+fire+tablet+blendschutz) (the single review there giving just one star seems a bit stupid to me. The video proves how good it actually works).

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on October 18, 2017, 06:34:14 pm
I used this one (from Amazon US) on mine (based I believe on mikeselectricstuff's original suggestion to use an Amazon Fire 10" screen protector) - works like a charm:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B015IKUNL2/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I cut it using a paper trimmer and a corner cutter for the corners. Applying without bubbles and dust takes a bit of attention, but 100% good (and these usually come with 2 or 3 protectors, so there is room for trial-and-error.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on October 18, 2017, 06:41:05 pm
I tested the one that mike recommended, and can confirm that it worked very well (especially if applied with the front of the case off, allowing it to be tucked under the bezel).

I ended up removing it though, as a) I got some dust under it when applying it which annoyed me a LOT, and b) where I have the scope there aren't many reflecting light sources, and I preferred the slightly sharper image with the glossy screen finish rather than the matte. I'd definitely put one back on if I moved the scope to where reflections are an issue though.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on October 19, 2017, 12:47:24 am
I did it: Two weeks to wait for my

- RTB2004, 300MHz
- RTB-B1 - 16 Kanal Mixed Signal
- RTB-B6 - 25 MHz Arbiträr Generator
- RTB-K1 - I2C/SPI Decode
- RTB-K2 - UART/RS-232/RS-422/RS-485 Decode
- RTB-K3 - CAN/LIN Dekodierung und
- RTB-K15 - History & Segmented Memory

WooHoo!  :)  :)  :)

Have fun!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on October 19, 2017, 07:15:45 pm
I did it: Two weeks to wait for my

- RTB2004, 300MHz
- RTB-B1 - 16 Kanal Mixed Signal
- RTB-B6 - 25 MHz Arbiträr Generator
- RTB-K1 - I2C/SPI Decode
- RTB-K2 - UART/RS-232/RS-422/RS-485 Decode
- RTB-K3 - CAN/LIN Dekodierung und
- RTB-K15 - History & Segmented Memory

WooHoo!  :)  :)  :)

Congratulations :-+ :-+ :-+

I did it too, but in two steps for now:

RTB2002, 70MHz

and

RTB-PK1 Option Bundle, that is

- RTB-B6 - 25 MHz Arbiträr Generator
- RTB-K1 - I2C/SPI Decode
- RTB-K2 - UART/RS-232/RS-422/RS-485 Decode
- RTB-K3 - CAN/LIN Dekodierung und
- RTB-K15 - History & Segmented Memory

third step in the future will be

- RTB-B1 - 16 Kanal Mixed Signal

step by step, please :phew:  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Qw3rtzuiop on October 19, 2017, 07:23:04 pm
Are there any known discounts in the EU/Germany for anybody or students?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rhb on October 20, 2017, 01:18:48 am
I'm hoping that there is a significant discount if you buy an RTB2004 with all the options.  There ought to be since it's all software license keys except for the LA probes.

The other scope I'm considering is the GW Instek MSO-2204EA.  It has most of the same features, but neither the memory depth nor the BW.  Probably good enough, but 300 MHz and 140 Mpts would be really nice if the uptick in price is not too high.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neganur on October 20, 2017, 02:06:20 am
Are there any known discounts in the EU/Germany for anybody or students?

I think Datatec.de is able to give you a minor discount. You can select a product and click the button "Bildungspreis anfragen" (or grab the phone and call them)

it's not going to be substantial though, maybe 5...10%
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on October 20, 2017, 07:08:03 am
Are there any known discounts in the EU/Germany for anybody or students?

I think Datatec.de is able to give you a minor discount. You can select a product and click the button "Bildungspreis anfragen" (or grab the phone and call them)

it's not going to be substantial though, maybe 5...10%
I may get you one RTB2004, 300 Mhz with all options
- RTB2004, 300MHz
- RTB-B1 - 16 channel mixed signal including MSO cable
- RTB-B6 - 25 MHz arbitrary generator
- RTB-K1 - I2C/SPI decoder
- RTB-K2 - UART/RS-232/RS-422/RS-485 decoder
- RTB-K3 - CAN/LIN decoder
- RTB-K15 - history & segmented memory

for 24% discount with warranty, invoice and EU shipping. It is a demo device, and was used for maybe 2 hours.  Thus it is like new - no scratches, dust etc.! It comes with all original material and with original packaging! Latest calibration from R&S from May or June 2017. PM me if interested.


*** Sold ***
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on October 20, 2017, 08:52:28 am
Some disorder in the spec.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on October 20, 2017, 08:53:34 am
 Results of decoding can run to the right side. The LA-front can appear in unusual place.

 Please explain why at a stop I see multitrace picture which turns in singletrace at the slightest influence? And why I haven’t any possibility to change it? The logical analyzer traces have time-correction?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on October 20, 2017, 09:02:43 am
Some disorder in the spec.
This seems correct to me - if you're only using one channel from each group (groups being channels 1&2 and 3&4) then you can get 2.5GSa/s and 20MSa memory depth. If you use 3 or 4 channels, or 2 within the same group, then you get 1.25GSa/s and 10MSa max. This is a fairly common type of specification for oscilloscopes which share ADC/memory resources between channels.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 20, 2017, 10:23:01 am
I'm hoping that there is a significant discount if you buy an RTB2004 with all the options.  There ought to be since it's all software license keys except for the LA probes.

The other scope I'm considering is the GW Instek MSO-2204EA.  It has most of the same features, but neither the memory depth nor the BW.  Probably good enough, but 300 MHz and 140 Mpts would be really nice if the uptick in price is not too high.
OTOH the GW Instek has much deeper and faster FFT which makes FFT actually usefull because you don't have to trade off between FFT resolution and optimal time/div settings. IOW you can look at a signal in both the frequency and time domain much more easely compared to other DSOs. Also for the price of the RTB2004 with all the options you can buy a very decent used MSO with a big screen and even 8 analog channels isn't out of the question (Yokogawa DLM4000 series for example).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rhb on October 20, 2017, 12:42:46 pm
OTOH the GW Instek has much deeper and faster FFT which makes FFT actually usefull because you don't have to trade off between FFT resolution and optimal time/div settings. IOW you can look at a signal in both the frequency and time domain much more easely compared to other DSOs. Also for the price of the RTB2004 with all the options you can buy a very decent used MSO with a big screen and even 8 analog channels isn't out of the question (Yokogawa DLM4000 series for example).

According to the manuals, the R&S and Instek both offer the same FFT lengths.  It's poorly described in the RTB manual which simply states:

"FFT analysis is performed on the data captured during the entire data acquisition."

Elsewhere in the manual is a table of the available record lengths which are the same as the Instek options.  I can't say anything about FFT speed as I've not fiddled with either of these.  Nor can I comment on the effect of segmented memory on the result.

I'm rather surprised and dismayed that neither Bartlett (triangular) nor Gaussian windows are an option on any of the current scopes I've looked at.  It's not as if a Bartlett requires a lot of resources and the sinc**2 frequency domain shape is almost as good as a Gaussian for limiting sidelobes.

In  the 4 or 5 scope user manuals I've read, the discussion of time domain windows for the FFT makes Wikipedia a veritable fount of wisdom.  I got the strong impression everyone just offered whatever Keysight offered with similar "explanations".
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on October 20, 2017, 12:46:44 pm
RTB FFT length is 128kpoints (from R&S Brochure).
Not as good at the 1Mpoint offerings from others, but still long enough to be useful.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 1design on October 20, 2017, 02:10:41 pm
Maybe I am missing something, but what is wrong with using spectrum analyzers for spectrum measurements. Everyone is way to fixated on the FFT with oscilloscopes, it is a nice add on, but definitely not the main purpose of the instrument. For spectrum measurement of power supplies etc. I always use an SA as it offers much better performance. I own the RTB and the FFT functionality is good, but the use cases a very limited.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 20, 2017, 02:17:10 pm
Maybe I am missing something, but what is wrong with using spectrum analyzers for spectrum measurements. Everyone is way to fixated on the FFT with oscilloscopes, it is a nice add on, but definitely not the main purpose of the instrument. For spectrum measurement of power supplies etc. I always use an SA as it offers much better performance. I own the RTB and the FFT functionality is good, but the use cases a very limited.
Spectrum analysers don't go down to DC and they sweep instead of taking a snapshot of a signal. I implement DSP algorithms regulary and 1Mpts FFT is super helpfull to look at a signal in both time and frequency domain to (for starters) see what the wanted signal versus unwanted signal ratio is. Also being able to do FFT on a part of a signal can aid to trace back which part of a signal is responsible for EMC emissions and hence you get a better understanding on what needs to be fixed. In a switching power supply there isn't just one component responsible for emissions.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 1design on October 20, 2017, 02:33:03 pm
All modern SA have a real time FFT mode. The span depends on the BW of the real time module. They also demodulate, do CCDF, look at pulses and have a wide selection of measurements. They go down to 9kHz, but you are right, not all the way do DC. There are even some that go down to 5Hz. I agree, to do real time processing in the back, you can use the Oscilloscope as a front end, but then FFT is done on the PC, not the scope...I also use it this way for modulation analysis.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: emax on October 20, 2017, 03:39:06 pm
Buying in Germany:

You'll find exactly the same (list-)prices everywhere, at least if you search the web. Dealers like Batronix or Datatec CAN NOT offer lower prices as they'd immedeately be kicked as a distributor.

I believe, that's what the manufacturers call "competition" .  :-DD

But if you ask for an offer by eMail, you'll find differences. I've seen interesting discounts in such personalized offers, and on the end-price, with a bit of smartness, you can often get another 2-3% of payment-"Skonto"'. Or get better probes, a carrying bag or whatsoever.

This, of course, will not make an expensive product inexpensive. But getting (alltogether) 10, 15 or more percent of rebates is still a lot of money.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on October 20, 2017, 03:57:14 pm
Maybe I am missing something, but what is wrong with using spectrum analyzers for spectrum measurements. Everyone is way to fixated on the FFT with oscilloscopes, it is a nice add on, but definitely not the main purpose of the instrument. For spectrum measurement of power supplies etc. I always use an SA as it offers much better performance. I own the RTB and the FFT functionality is good, but the use cases a very limited.
FFT may not be the main purpose of a scope, but many of us cannot justify purchasing a SA for the hobbyist projects we are interested in. In this case a decent scope-based FFT might be good enough for what we need, but a poor one (e.g. Rigol DS1000Z) may not be, so FFT specs/usability can be an important consideration when buying a scope if a SA isn't available.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 20, 2017, 04:07:01 pm
Maybe I am missing something, but what is wrong with using spectrum analyzers for spectrum measurements. Everyone is way to fixated on the FFT with oscilloscopes, it is a nice add on, but definitely not the main purpose of the instrument. For spectrum measurement of power supplies etc. I always use an SA as it offers much better performance. I own the RTB and the FFT functionality is good, but the use cases a very limited.
FFT may not be the main purpose of a scope, but many of us cannot justify purchasing a SA for the hobbyist projects we are interested in. In this case a decent scope-based FFT might be good enough for what we need, but a poor one (e.g. Rigol DS1000Z) may not be, so FFT specs/usability can be an important consideration when buying a scope if a SA isn't available.
I don't agree with this. FFT on a scope and a spectrum analyser are catering for two entirely different use cases. There is some overlap but if you need to look at a (frozen) signal in both the frequency and time domain at the same time then FFT on a scope is the tool of choice. Using a PC can be an alternative but the scope would need to be able transfer a lot of data quickly for this to work in an ergonomic way.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on October 20, 2017, 05:35:13 pm
OK, i should have phrased that as "FFT specs/usability can be an important consideration when buying a scope, ESPECIALLY when a SA isn't available" (I agree that they have both overlapping and separate uses).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 20, 2017, 05:46:20 pm
Still not happy. Earlier this year I did a project and FFT on a scope was the right tool for the job. There is an SA which works from 10Hz sitting next to the scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MrW0lf on October 20, 2017, 08:05:06 pm
I'm rather surprised and dismayed that neither Bartlett (triangular) nor Gaussian windows are an option on any of the current scopes I've looked at.

Why look for analytical features in glitch hunting scopes? :-// For this high end from mainstream will do or these in some areas:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=362342)

One thing common - heavy processing takes place in PC - which is right tool for the job.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on October 23, 2017, 07:52:04 am
As I have seen on Michaels videos he uses just a mouse ... but likes to use a thumb drive for screenshots as well.
I tried a common USB hub on the front panel ... and it works well with mouse and USB drive at the same time.
One drive could be recognized, other ones are denied.
To be honest ... who needs more than one memory ont the scope?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on October 23, 2017, 08:16:34 am
Agreed that one is enough. Given the support for USB hubs though it's a shame that they didn't use one internally to add another port or two to the back of the unit. Would make it much easier to use USB mouse/keyboard at the back, with a front port free for memory (without an extra ugly hub and wire permanently connected). Maybe a possible improvement for the next instrument they build using this platform?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rf-design on October 23, 2017, 10:14:42 am
Some disorder in the spec.
Does disorder mean that the RTB hardware/firmware is still able to select any two channel combination for 2.5GS/s?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on October 23, 2017, 03:51:41 pm
No, you can't use "any" two channels, it must be only 1 of channel 1&2 plus 1 of channel 3&4. So to get 2.5Gs/S you can use,

1 & 3 or
1 & 4 or
2 & 3 or
2 & 4

will run at 2.5Gs/S. Anything else will be 1.25Gs/S.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on October 27, 2017, 06:11:37 pm
Hm seems like in Russia one can get the PK1-Package for 50% from November to January?
https://twitter.com/Elec_ru/status/923090806235205632 (https://twitter.com/Elec_ru/status/923090806235205632)
Or do I get this wrong? Any sign that this also applies in Austria?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on October 27, 2017, 06:25:27 pm
Hm seems like in Russia one can get the PK1-Package for 50% from November to January?
https://twitter.com/Elec_ru/status/923090806235205632 (https://twitter.com/Elec_ru/status/923090806235205632)
Or do I get this wrong? Any sign that this also applies in Austria?
My understanding is it is worldwide.  So yes, should be available in Austria.  It for sure will be available in the US and Canada starting November 1st.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on October 31, 2017, 06:42:49 pm
 :-//  :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KrzysztofB on November 01, 2017, 11:14:35 am
I was decoding a signal, which had exactly 2.2us. I did set timescale on 2.2us so it was niceliy aligned with grid, but when moving further i had to really focus when spanning.

Anyone knows if it's possible to assign a fixed time for one step on horizontal span?
I know you can do that by pressing on screen and setting numeric value, but would be so handy if i could just turn this detented knob, one step forward.

Oh. And is it possible to span timeline of measured and reference signal in the same time?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 01, 2017, 01:00:49 pm
I was decoding a signal, which had exactly 2.2us. I did set timescale on 2.2us so it was niceliy aligned with grid, but when moving further i had to really focus when spanning.

Anyone knows if it's possible to assign a fixed time for one step on horizontal span?
I know you can do that by pressing on screen and setting numeric value, but would be so handy if i could just turn this detented knob, one step forward.

Pressing the horizontal knob switches between coarse and fine adjust
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bpye on November 01, 2017, 01:44:26 pm
I don't suppose any other demo units are being sold? Another university student looking for a scope here  :(
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KrzysztofB on November 02, 2017, 08:39:36 am
I was decoding a signal, which had exactly 2.2us. I did set timescale on 2.2us so it was niceliy aligned with grid, but when moving further i had to really focus when spanning.

Anyone knows if it's possible to assign a fixed time for one step on horizontal span?
I know you can do that by pressing on screen and setting numeric value, but would be so handy if i could just turn this detented knob, one step forward.

Pressing the horizontal knob switches between coarse and fine adjust
You mean horizontal scale knob? Cause as far as i remember horizontal span would position at zero after pressing.
What i meant, was that maybe cause span knob has detents, it's possible to assign a fixed time span per one step of that knob. Kinda to go frame by frame.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on November 02, 2017, 09:00:19 am
I think there is a confusion between scale/span/position. I would call the small knob "Position" and the large "Scale". Span means "Scale" to me. The Position knob moves the trace by a set amount when moving slow, when moving it faster there is some acceleration logic which makes the trace move more per step.

On another topic: Rich - any news on the new firmware release?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KrzysztofB on November 02, 2017, 09:11:29 am
I think there is a confusion between scale/span/position. I would call the small knob "Position" and the large "Scale". Span means "Scale" to me. The Position knob moves the trace by a set amount when moving slow, when moving it faster there is some acceleration logic which makes the trace move more per step.
Yes! That would be exactly what I was asking about. Position. And that i what i was wondering. Is there any possibility to set that this "slow" step would move in example 2.2uS.
I mean, now I see that i could have just put a cursor, and then move it to not loose a track of where I did finish my manual decoding, but still would be nice to have such a posibility it this knob is detented.
I know it's possible to touch on position field and type it in, but that was a bit annoying. Or maybe I was tired.

Still, another thing, is it possible to change possition of both measured signal and saved referance in the same time?
Cause I couldn't find "lock" function, what made me to move one a time to keep them aligned.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 02, 2017, 09:19:06 am
Not quite what you want, but the grid tracking mode is useful for scanning through a long waveform, where the grid scrolls along with the waveform
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KrzysztofB on November 02, 2017, 09:31:12 am
Now I see that probably I should have used search function.
Seems that I need to play a bit more with own gear ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 02, 2017, 02:23:06 pm
On another topic: Rich - any news on the new firmware release?
Hi Hydron - Unfortunately, it sounds like it won't make it out this week.  :(  I'm told the goal is now this coming week.  Wish I had a better update as I know everyone is waiting patiently.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Backlash on November 02, 2017, 09:00:24 pm
My understanding is it is worldwide.  So yes, should be available in Austria.  It for sure will be available in the US and Canada starting November 1st.

-Rich
Any news of the worldwide 50% discount on the pk1 bundle?
/Peter
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on November 03, 2017, 06:47:06 pm
At least in Europe I see it at several shops.
For example:
http://www.datatec.de/Aktion-Rohde-RTB-PK1-Oszilloskop-Option.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Aktion-Rohde-RTB-PK1-Oszilloskop-Option.htm)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on November 03, 2017, 11:26:10 pm
At least in Europe I see it at several shops.
For example:
http://www.datatec.de/Aktion-Rohde-RTB-PK1-Oszilloskop-Option.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Aktion-Rohde-RTB-PK1-Oszilloskop-Option.htm)
"Aktion gültig bei Neukauf eines RTB Oszilloskopes"
"Action valid on new purchase of an RTB oscilloscope"

That's stupid...
Not quite what we are interested in  :--
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Backlash on November 04, 2017, 08:38:04 am
At least in Europe I see it at several shops.
For example:
http://www.datatec.de/Aktion-Rohde-RTB-PK1-Oszilloskop-Option.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Aktion-Rohde-RTB-PK1-Oszilloskop-Option.htm)
"Aktion gültig bei Neukauf eines RTB Oszilloskopes"
"Action valid on new purchase of an RTB oscilloscope"

That's stupid...
Not quite what we are interested in  :--
Bought my scope 3 weeks ago..this is a bit disappointing  :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: emax on November 06, 2017, 08:07:58 pm
My scope arrived today. :)

Only had an hour or so to get an overview. First impressions:

- Packaging is lousy. It's safe, but it feels a bit like leftover packing materials: Scope in a plastic bag, wrapped in pieces of foam. Not really an embodiement of Rohde & Schwarz.
- Until now, I had (and still own) a TDS3012B. So of course, its a completely different universe now: A great scope, and with all the options enabled it's incredibliy feature-rich. My focus is on serial busses, and this is doubtlessly a strength of this scope. Really great presentation of decoding and lots of other capabilities.
- The knobs feel a bit plastic-like. Except for the rotary-knobs, they lack from my point of view clear feedback as they do not have a clear pressure-point and 'wobble' a bit when pressed. It is not what I had expected from a (nominally) 6000-7000 Euro-scope. 
- The outrigger (feet) in front do their job, but I'll take care of them: They look a bit fragile.
- The ventilator is - though not disturbing - clearly audible (was in a quiet office).
- Responsiveness of touch screen is good but not imposing. But maybe I was a bit too cautious when utilizing this (shiny new and clean) touchscreen.

These are only first impressions, and - of course - my very personal perception. I remember HAMEG-scopes which had a really sturdy appeal for both, the buttons and the casing. But those  were the days: Today, things seem not any more built like tanks. But I am probably too old.

In terms of features, display and overall capabilities I think however, after having seen all those videos and tried a bit myself today, that this is a really fantastic instrument. I would buy it again. And I have no doubts, that it will stand everydays challenges. It wasn't otherwise Rohde & Schwarz.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on November 12, 2017, 12:41:34 pm
On another topic: Rich - any news on the new firmware release?
Hi Hydron - Unfortunately, it sounds like it won't make it out this week.  :(  I'm told the goal is now this coming week.  Wish I had a better update as I know everyone is waiting patiently.

-Rich

hmm another week no update? :)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on November 13, 2017, 04:03:00 pm
Hopefully more than just a few bug fixes when it is out.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on November 13, 2017, 04:28:10 pm
Hopefully more than just a few bug fixes when it is out.
Agreed, or at least an indication of what changes are planned and when.

On another topic, I had a quick look at the front end to get an idea of how it works, particularly the LMH6518 VGA/BW limiter/ADC driver. I was hoping that this part might be doing the ultimate bandwidth limiting job (in which case changing the command sent to it could potentially allow for higher than 300MHz bandwidth), but it looks like it's only used for the 20MHz limit, with 70/100/200/300MHz limits done elsewhere (the setting used for full bandwidth is 750MHz, not the 350MHz option as I'd hoped).

I've attached a couple of high-res pics I took while I had the cover off (same subject, but different lighting angle shows up different part codes). The QFN part in the top right is the LMH6518 mentioned.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 13, 2017, 08:23:51 pm
On another topic: Rich - any news on the new firmware release?
Hi Hydron - Unfortunately, it sounds like it won't make it out this week.  :(  I'm told the goal is now this coming week.  Wish I had a better update as I know everyone is waiting patiently.

-Rich

hmm another week no update? :)
I know... |O 

Soon (I think)  :-+

If I get a release notes before it is posted on the web I'll put it up here.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on November 26, 2017, 09:33:23 pm
Found something very odd today - I was trying to update the date/time, and the scope does not seem to accept Nov 26 as a valid date input!

It seemed happy with the 25th or 27th (did not try other months or years), but when I pressed save with 2017-Nov-26 <any time> it would not take the change, and furthermore seemed to corrupt the date/time memory and cause the scope to complain about the RTC on next bootup. I could get it to roll over the date to the 26th, but then couldn't correct the time as it'd cause the same issue.

As the 27th seems to work, i'll just need to wait until tomorrow to fix the time, but it is a very strange bug. Has anyone else seen this or similar?

Also on the subject of bugs and fixes - any ETA for the "October" firmware?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: dr.diesel on November 26, 2017, 09:38:49 pm
Also on the subject of bugs and fixes - any ETA for the "October" firmware?

Hopefully the delay is an indication they took the list of bugs seriously this time.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 27, 2017, 03:01:27 am
Hi Everyone,

I've been on vacation for the past week so I apologize that I haven't gotten an update.  I just asked what the status is and I'll update you all as soon as I hear. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 28, 2017, 06:10:38 pm
Update:  Firmware 2.0 has been released by R&D and should be on the web shortly.  Here are some of the updates/fixes/changes:

New Features of V02.000:
-Automatic roll mode with programmable time base
-Hold off supported for all trigger types
-Cursor settable to next peak in FFT
-Cursor measure value ?Y/?V with cursor type V-Marker
-Slew rate measurement added
-Multiple language support for web interface
-MOSI/MISO functionality for SPI bus with option RTB-K1
-Rx/Tx functionality for UART bus with option RTB-K2
-Fast segmentation with option RTB-K15
-Support of temporary bandwidth options

Modifications of Firmware V02.000:
-20MHz BWL in channel short menu added, ground removed.
-Display of current record length when record length set to automatic, see menu 'Acquire'.
-After firmware update a message is displayed which version is installed.
-Option RTB-K15: Separation of segment table and history player. Player can be used without segment table.
-Function generator: adjusted limits for minimum and maximum frequencies with FSK modulation.
-Various improvements in GUI and languages.

Improvements of Firmware V02.000:
-Solved: XY mode with average on; wrong display of waveform in xy-diagram.
-Solved: Persistence with waveform color temperature: The dark blue color always shows infinite persistence, independent of the configuration.
-Solved: The SCPI commands for pulse function of waveform generator are implemented in a wrong path and are therefore not consistent with the documentation where the correct path in indicated.
-Solved: Wrong amplitude and offset in high resolution mode with small segment size:
  -10kSa from 50s to 500s
  -20kSa from 100s to 500s
  -50kSa with 500s
  -100kSa with 500s
-Solved: Wrong behavior with channel probe unit 'A' and user defined attenuation ratio.
-Solved: Trigger jitter up to 6.4ns with acquisition memory size 1MSa.
-Solved: Wrong channel data after disable and enable of a channel in stop mode.
-Solved: After changing acquire mode in QuickMeas the acquire mode was not applied to all channels when QuickMeas is left.
-Solved: Universal rotary knob did change a wrong value after changing cursor type between 'Horizontal' and 'Vertical' and vice versa.
-Solved: With Russian language the numeric input keypad did not print 'Min' and 'Max' values.
-Solved: With infinite persistence, a menu open or close did clear the persistence in stop mode.
-Solved: Wrong frequencies in spectrum on channel 2 and 4 with timebase greater than 200?s.
-Solved: After using probe adjust wizard the pattern generator menu was not available.
-Solved: Pattern pin state stuck at last state when pattern generator turned off. Now the pin state stays low.
-Solved: Wrong UART framing in option RTB-K2. V02.000 Solved: Cursor positions not restored with preset or loaded setup.
-Solved: Wrong offset in Math trace with operator multiplication and source attenuation greater than 1V.
-Webserver: Livescreen and Remote Front Panel creates a message if more than one user online.

Thanks again for your patience.  Per usual, if you have feedback on the new release, please let me know and I'll feed it back to the team.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: dr.diesel on November 28, 2017, 06:21:03 pm
Nice long list, thanks Rich! 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on November 28, 2017, 07:03:54 pm
Nice long list, thanks Rich!
Surprisingly loooooong list.  :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on November 28, 2017, 07:40:47 pm
-Solved: XY mode with average on; wrong display of waveform in xy-diagram.
Does this mean space invaders is gone? :-\ Hope they built in snake in exchange  :popcorn: Joking aside, as Christmas is near: are there any easter eggs in the FW?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 28, 2017, 10:17:11 pm
-Solved: XY mode with average on; wrong display of waveform in xy-diagram.
Does this mean space invaders is gone? :-\ Hope they built in snake in exchange  :popcorn: Joking aside, as Christmas is near: are there any easter eggs in the FW?
Yes, I believe it is gone.  And I'm not sure if there are any easter eggs - they didn't tell me there were, but then, what fun would that be?

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on November 28, 2017, 10:49:15 pm
Thanks Rich, sounds like it was worth the wait!
I look forward to having a play when it shows up on the R&S site.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on November 29, 2017, 12:27:53 am
Many thanks from me too.

By the way, a completely different question:
is it possible to upgrade from 100Mhz to 200Mhz and later from 200Mhz to 300Mhz, and how much does it cost?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on November 29, 2017, 01:54:05 am
Nice long list, thanks Rich!
Surprisingly loooooong list.  :-//

Are you suggesting the upgrades and bug fixes are a bad thing or just surprised some companies try to do more than one bug fix every 6 months?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on November 29, 2017, 02:49:47 am
Nice long list, thanks Rich!
Surprisingly loooooong list.  :-//

Are you suggesting the upgrades and bug fixes are a bad thing or just surprised some companies try to do more than one bug fix every 6 months?
Neither.

A certain member whom I quoted takes care to post in anything here about Siglent, I was just returning the favor.
We can all happily carry on along on EEVblog without the shite he has in his signature.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 29, 2017, 03:37:16 am
By the way, a completely different question:
is it possible to upgrade from 100Mhz to 200Mhz and later from 200Mhz to 300Mhz, and how much does it cost?
It is. While the part numbers only exist to go from 70MHz to each of the higher steps, we’ll discount out the difference - you should just need to ping the place you purchased it from.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on November 29, 2017, 05:14:09 am
Are you suggesting the upgrades and bug fixes are a bad thing or just surprised some companies try to do more than one bug fix every 6 months?
[/quote]
Neither.
A certain member whom I quoted takes care to post in anything here about Siglent, I was just returning the favor.
We can all happily carry on along on EEVblog without the shite he has in his signature.
[/quote]

And if your intention is to post in here just to be provocative then you will not be welcome here.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kcbrown on November 29, 2017, 06:27:17 am
That's an impressive list.  Certainly justifies the amount of time it took. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: borjam on November 29, 2017, 07:14:35 am
That's an impressive list.  Certainly justifies the amount of time it took. 
That's something the new kids on the block (ie, Chinese manufacturers) still need to learn: transparency. A detailed list of changes can be of critical importance.

It's not only a matter of detailing "fixes in measurements" but _what_ you have fixed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on November 29, 2017, 07:34:38 am
Quote
It's not only a matter of detailing "fixes in measurements" but _what_ you have fixed.
... if they know it ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on November 29, 2017, 07:48:14 am
By the way, a completely different question:
is it possible to upgrade from 100Mhz to 200Mhz and later from 200Mhz to 300Mhz, and how much does it cost?
It is. While the part numbers only exist to go from 70MHz to each of the higher steps, we’ll discount out the difference - you should just need to ping the place you purchased it from.

-Rich
Yes, that's my opinion too, but not from this nice lady on the phone R&S-Germany.  :o
I think something like that should be settled in this sense.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on November 29, 2017, 11:25:28 am
I'm wondering about two things:
- Does the latest firmware fix all the outstanding issues or are there more issues to be fixed?
- What is the price including the current special offers? IIRC originally the 300MHz model + MSO + decoding would set you back about 8000 euro.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xfede on November 29, 2017, 11:36:22 am
I'm wondering about two things:
- Does the latest firmware fix all the outstanding issues or are there more issues to be fixed?
- What is the price including the current special offers? IIRC originally the 300MHz model + MSO + decoding would set you back about 8000 euro.

I don't have an answer for the first question but I have ordered it last Friday (It should arrive today) from Farnell. Final price ~4150 + VAT for a full optional scope (MSO 300MHZ + PK1) thanks to black Friday (15%) and launch offer on PK1.

Best,
0xfede
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xfede on November 29, 2017, 04:30:52 pm
And here it is my new baby  ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on November 29, 2017, 05:26:01 pm
I'm wondering about two things:
- Does the latest firmware fix all the outstanding issues or are there more issues to be fixed?
- What is the price including the current special offers? IIRC originally the 300MHz model + MSO + decoding would set you back about 8000 euro.

I don't have an answer for the first question but I have ordered it last Friday (It should arrive today) from Farnell. Final price ~4150 + VAT for a full optional scope (MSO 300MHZ + PK1) thanks to black Friday (15%) and launch offer on PK1.
Thanks. That price level seems way more sane to me. Looking forward to what others have to say about the new firmware.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: dr.diesel on November 29, 2017, 06:59:24 pm
Doesn't show on the R&S website, but:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_firmware/zip_1/RTB200x_Firmware_V02.000.zip

YMMV - You know the risks - etc.   :popcorn:    :scared:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on November 29, 2017, 07:22:50 pm
It’s on the website now:
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/hu/firmware/rtb2004/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/hu/firmware/rtb2004/)

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on November 29, 2017, 07:24:46 pm
It's online (officially) now, and I just did the update. Scope is still alive!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on November 29, 2017, 11:04:04 pm
Thanks R&S.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on November 30, 2017, 12:16:12 am
A few graphics issues have made it into this release as well, as the attached screenshot shows.
Square-wave on channel 1.
Measurement added (peak-peak).
Zoom enabled (exact settings are visible in the screenshot).
Hit the Run/Stop button (history navigation appeared).
Added second measurement (rise -time).
Scrambled overplayed graphics appeared.

BR,
Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 30, 2017, 10:31:30 am
Unfortunately they've not killed all the sliding effects that make the UI feel more sluggish than it needs to be
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 30, 2017, 10:45:40 am
-MOSI/MISO functionality for SPI bus with option RTB-K1
-Rx/Tx functionality for UART bus with option RTB-K2

These are cosmetic changes only - if you enable MISO and MOSI this uses both decode channels ( second channel gets disabled) .
Similarly if you have UART TX and RX, that also uses both channels, so you can't for example do SPI with MISO and MOSI and any other decode at the same time.

It's a slight improvement for SPI ( Though not equivalent to scopes that have two full decode channels), but for UART I can't really see much advantage over using the channels seperately.

At least UART framing works correctly now.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 30, 2017, 10:49:39 am
One previously reported bug not fixed :
Aux out setting not preserved over a power cycle
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on November 30, 2017, 01:31:24 pm
It's definitely disappointing to discover that one full-duplex decode is still all that you get despite the change in configuration method. Even having the second decoder limited to simpler options (i.e. non-RX/TX or MOSI/MISO) when the first decoder is doing full duplex would be a big improvement.

Rich - are you able to comment on the reason for the limitation continuing despite the configuration change? Is it due to hardware capability, or commercial reasons? The fact that multiple addressed buses (e.g. I2C, CAN) are supported simultaneously argues to me against it being the latter.

The other changes/improvement/bug-fixes are certainly welcome - looks like they got to most (though not all) of the bugs I submitted. I'll be using the scope in anger this weekend, so will provide feedback on what I find. What is the "Fast Segmentation" option btw?

Edit: "Fast Segmentation" seems to have an effect in "Nx Single" capture mode - I'm seeing as little as 3.2us between segments, i.e. 300k+ segments/s.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 30, 2017, 02:37:29 pm
One previously reported bug not fixed :
Aux out setting not preserved over a power cycle
Hi Mike - this is actually the intended behavior.  Because the output can be used as a generator, 10MHz out, pass/fail, etc we try to protect users who may not realize that the output was set as a generator (e.g. in schools) and end up destroying a sensitive device.  We realize this is frustrating to a more experienced user, but we feel like we chose the lesser of two evils.  Definitely open to other suggestions if you have them. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 30, 2017, 02:43:30 pm
It's definitely disappointing to discover that one full-duplex decode is still all that you get despite the change in configuration method. Even having the second decoder limited to simpler options (i.e. non-RX/TX or MOSI/MISO) when the first decoder is doing full duplex would be a big improvement.

Rich - are you able to comment on the reason for the limitation continuing despite the configuration change? Is it due to hardware capability, or commercial reasons? The fact that multiple addressed buses (e.g. I2C, CAN) are supported simultaneously argues to me against it being the latter.

The other changes/improvement/bug-fixes are certainly welcome - looks like they got to most (though not all) of the bugs I submitted. I'll be using the scope in anger this weekend, so will provide feedback on what I find. What is the "Fast Segmentation" option btw?

Edit: "Fast Segmentation" seems to have an effect in "Nx Single" capture mode - I'm seeing as little as 3.2us between segments, i.e. 300k+ segments/s.
Hi Hydron - first, you are correct on "Fast Segmentation".  It's a feature that had been there, but was not obvious and/or easy to use, so based on feedback from a number of users we tried to simplify it.

With respect to your question on the duplex buses, I have a guess, but I'll also confirm with our R&D team.  I believe it is due to our hardware implementation of bus decoding in a FPGA.  We tried to simplify the setting up of a duplex bus (which I believe we did), but we weren't able to completely reconfigure the FPGA to handle a duplex bus on a single decode at this time.  Having said that, we know that several people would like the ability to decode a full duplex bus and another bus simultaneously and we'll continue to keep that on the potential enhancement list for future updates.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 30, 2017, 02:49:50 pm
A few graphics issues have made it into this release as well, as the attached screenshot shows.
Square-wave on channel 1.
Measurement added (peak-peak).
Zoom enabled (exact settings are visible in the screenshot).
Hit the Run/Stop button (history navigation appeared).
Added second measurement (rise -time).
Scrambled overplayed graphics appeared.

BR,
Michael
Thanks Michael for the very detailed instructions on how to replicate this.  I'll submit it to our bug fix queue.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: marekx on November 30, 2017, 04:32:39 pm
Hi!

My first post here but I hope that its useful for those who have bought their RTB's without
the PK1 option bundle and are a bit irritated because of the current offer from R&S to get
a 50% discount for the PK1 when buying it together with a new scope.
The offer is also on Farnell but it seems that the system has discounted the PK1 to 50%
of its original cost but does not require to add a scope to the basket. So get your option
bundles while they last or while Farnell notices this bug and fixes it :) I got mine already.

With best wishes,
Marek
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 30, 2017, 04:51:11 pm
Hi!

My first post here but I hope that its useful for those who have bought their RTB's without
the PK1 option bundle and are a bit irritated because of the current offer from R&S to get
a 50% discount for the PK1 when buying it together with a new scope.
The offer is also on Farnell but it seems that the system has discounted the PK1 to 50%
of its original cost but does not require to add a scope to the basket. So get your option
bundles while they last or while Farnell notices this bug and fixes it :) I got mine already.

With best wishes,
Marek
Also, in UK at least, remember you can get 4% cashback on Farnell orders via Quidco
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xfede on November 30, 2017, 05:17:04 pm
.....................

With respect to your question on the duplex buses, I have a guess, but I'll also confirm with our R&D team.  I believe it is due to our hardware implementation of bus decoding in a FPGA.  We tried to simplify the setting up of a duplex bus (which I believe we did), but we weren't able to completely reconfigure the FPGA to handle a duplex bus on a single decode at this time.  Having said that, we know that several people would like the ability to decode a full duplex bus and another bus simultaneously and we'll continue to keep that on the potential enhancement list for future updates.

-Rich

I found that very disappointing too.
It's a true deal breaker and something that I don't expect in this price range.

Regards,
0xfede
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on December 01, 2017, 02:37:27 am
.....................

With respect to your question on the duplex buses, I have a guess, but I'll also confirm with our R&D team.  I believe it is due to our hardware implementation of bus decoding in a FPGA.  We tried to simplify the setting up of a duplex bus (which I believe we did), but we weren't able to completely reconfigure the FPGA to handle a duplex bus on a single decode at this time.  Having said that, we know that several people would like the ability to decode a full duplex bus and another bus simultaneously and we'll continue to keep that on the potential enhancement list for future updates.

-Rich
I found that very disappointing too.
It's a true deal breaker and something that I don't expect in this price range.

Regards,
0xfede
Totally understand and hopefully it is something we can address in a future release.  I've made sure your feedback (and others) is known.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on December 04, 2017, 12:46:22 pm
The Signal Path just posted:
Rohde & Schwarz RTB2004 10-Bit, 2.5GS/s Mixed-Signal Oscilloscope Review, Teardown & Experiments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YokF2_EbfIk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YokF2_EbfIk)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: dr.diesel on December 04, 2017, 12:53:01 pm
^ I wonder what FW version?  Hopefully Rich gets a chance to watch the complete video, Shahriar uncovered a couple more opportunities for improvement.

Excellent video as well.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on December 04, 2017, 02:51:25 pm
It's not the latest firmware unfortunately. I must say I disagree with Shahriar about the detented knobs!

Video is good so far, but employment got in the way of watching the whole thing :(
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hugoneus on December 04, 2017, 03:09:55 pm
It's not the latest firmware unfortunately. I must say I disagree with Shahriar about the detented knobs!

Video is good so far, but employment got in the way of watching the whole thing :(

I installed the latest firmware a week ago. Has there been an update since then?

I know the knobs is a matter of taste, I personally really like them.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: dr.diesel on December 04, 2017, 03:11:57 pm

I installed the latest firmware a week ago. Has there been an update since then?

I know the knobs is a matter of taste, I personally really like them.

A significant update, v2.0, was released on November 29th.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 04, 2017, 03:12:35 pm
It's not the latest firmware unfortunately. I must say I disagree with Shahriar about the detented knobs!

Video is good so far, but employment got in the way of watching the whole thing :(
Yes, the now-working UART framing would have helped for his demo. Pretty sure I had Uart trigger working though surprised it didn't wirk fir him.
Also can't see how clicky fine knobs are better.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hugoneus on December 04, 2017, 03:35:11 pm

I installed the latest firmware a week ago. Has there been an update since then?

I know the knobs is a matter of taste, I personally really like them.

A significant update, v2.0, was released on November 29th.

That is unfortunate! I missed it by one day...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xfede on December 04, 2017, 03:36:05 pm
Great video, thanks for your work.

I checked and on V2.00 fw the UART pattern triggering is working.
A bug that I found is that if you try to modify the UART TX (secondary) treshold level it doesn't change. The only way to modify it is to continously push the 'Find Treshold' button until the value is the one you want.

Just for fun I'm attaching an FFT of 868MHZ FSK modulated signal (I've used an external 50ohm terminator).

Best,
0xfede
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on December 04, 2017, 03:58:13 pm
A few other comments having watched the video:

- The list of icons along the top left can be changed by tapping the cog icon in the top-middle of the screen
- Definitely aliases in "Sampled" acq mode. Could try using "Peak Detect" mode?
- As well as the bus table, FFT/Delayed modes with the split screen allow for relative size of each section to be changed
- Agree RE 50ohm inputs @ 300MHz - I end up using pass-through terminations quite a bit
- Screen protector works very well, but in my setup (which doesn't have lights that reflect on it) I prefer the screen without one.
- ARB gen using non-built-in waveforms has a rather low sampling rate, which unfortunately limits it a bit and leads to jitter of edges etc

Thanks for the video - nice to see one showing the scope actually in use!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on December 04, 2017, 06:05:33 pm
Yes, excellent clear and professional review. I always learn things watching your videos. Thanks Shahriar. :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fgrir on December 04, 2017, 08:09:20 pm
I had a chance to play around with the latest firmware over the weekend and I am fairly impressed.  Several GUI issues I had reported were not mentioned in the release notes, so I was quite relieved that they had been fixed as well.

One issue I had noticed (but never reported) before the firmware update has not been corrected though.  Incorrect data is saved when downloading a .csv file of the acquisition memory of a trace that has not been allowed to complete.  I noticed this when using the scope for some ad-hoc datalogging with the timebase set to 500s/div, but it can be recreated with any timebase slow enough that you can hit Run/Stop before the full trace data is collected.

The attached examples were taken with Single trigger mode and Acquisition Record Length of 20MSa.  The first one (scrprint1/plot1) was allowed to complete and the downloaded data appears correct, while the second one (scrprint2/plot2) was stopped early with the Run/Stop button.  The .csv files are downloaded through the network interface and the plots are generated with Octave+gnuplot, and I have manually examined the .csv file contents to verify that the plots are accurately representing the data in the files.  I'd upload the .csv files as well but they are ~500MB  :--

The data content of the early terminated traces can vary - I know at various times I've seen random data, discontinuous data like shown in the second example here, and even continuous data that appears to be from the correct waveform but with incorrect phase/timestamps.  I'm sure it is related to the previous operations on the scope, but I haven't quite figured out a pattern to it yet.

It is also interesting that the pre-trigger data is never shown on the early-terminated trace.  On the trace that is allowed to finish the pre-trigger data is not displayed until after the trace completes, so it seems possible that there is some sort of post-trace processing that is being missed that leads to the download being incorrect.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RobBarter on December 04, 2017, 08:12:16 pm
Thanks Hugoneus - Perfect timing as I've been considering this scope the last few weeks.  Although my 17year old may 'borrow' it off me for his A-level project ::)
The quality and depth of your reviews is first rate. Some of it goes over my head but, if it didn't, I wouldn't learn anything new.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on December 05, 2017, 11:02:27 am
Reichelt in Germany does have now the RTB 2K as well with some promotions:

https://www.reichelt.de//446/index.html?ACTION=446&START=0&OFFSET=100&SID=25QPIZzawQARkAACRaExgf89db302341b34295dad499c990437bd&LANGUAGE=EN&SEARCH=Rohde+Schwarz+RTB+2K (https://www.reichelt.de//446/index.html?ACTION=446&START=0&OFFSET=100&SID=25QPIZzawQARkAACRaExgf89db302341b34295dad499c990437bd&LANGUAGE=EN&SEARCH=Rohde+Schwarz+RTB+2K)

But be careful: They confused RTB 2002 / 2004 with 4- and 2 channel. You should read the article description carefully.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 05, 2017, 03:49:05 pm
Shahriar,
Thanks for the review of the scope, I always learn something. One point, if you tap the gear on the task bar you can change the apps displayed and replace the education app with one that suits you better.

Rob
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on December 05, 2017, 07:10:22 pm
The Signal Path just posted:
Rohde & Schwarz RTB2004 10-Bit, 2.5GS/s Mixed-Signal Oscilloscope Review, Teardown & Experiments


Thanks for reviewing ...

The problem with the UART might be that you have a continuos stream of UART data.
The trigger type you have choosen needs to have a break event before to detect a clean start of frame.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on December 06, 2017, 08:25:35 pm
Great video, thanks for your work.

I checked and on V2.00 fw the UART pattern triggering is working.
A bug that I found is that if you try to modify the UART TX (secondary) treshold level it doesn't change. The only way to modify it is to continously push the 'Find Treshold' button until the value is the one you want.

Just for fun I'm attaching an FFT of 868MHZ FSK modulated signal (I've used an external 50ohm terminator).

Best,
0xfede
0xfede - thanks for the feedback on the UART threshold.  The team was able to recreate this and has added it to the bug fix tracker.  There is also a workaround in the meantime - you can change the threshold in the channel menu.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on December 06, 2017, 08:26:43 pm
I had a chance to play around with the latest firmware over the weekend and I am fairly impressed.  Several GUI issues I had reported were not mentioned in the release notes, so I was quite relieved that they had been fixed as well.

One issue I had noticed (but never reported) before the firmware update has not been corrected though.  Incorrect data is saved when downloading a .csv file of the acquisition memory of a trace that has not been allowed to complete.  I noticed this when using the scope for some ad-hoc datalogging with the timebase set to 500s/div, but it can be recreated with any timebase slow enough that you can hit Run/Stop before the full trace data is collected.

The attached examples were taken with Single trigger mode and Acquisition Record Length of 20MSa.  The first one (scrprint1/plot1) was allowed to complete and the downloaded data appears correct, while the second one (scrprint2/plot2) was stopped early with the Run/Stop button.  The .csv files are downloaded through the network interface and the plots are generated with Octave+gnuplot, and I have manually examined the .csv file contents to verify that the plots are accurately representing the data in the files.  I'd upload the .csv files as well but they are ~500MB  :--

The data content of the early terminated traces can vary - I know at various times I've seen random data, discontinuous data like shown in the second example here, and even continuous data that appears to be from the correct waveform but with incorrect phase/timestamps.  I'm sure it is related to the previous operations on the scope, but I haven't quite figured out a pattern to it yet.

It is also interesting that the pre-trigger data is never shown on the early-terminated trace.  On the trace that is allowed to finish the pre-trigger data is not displayed until after the trace completes, so it seems possible that there is some sort of post-trace processing that is being missed that leads to the download being incorrect.
Hi Fgrir - thanks for the feedback and sorry for the trouble.  The team was also able to recreate this and it will be fixed in the next update.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on December 06, 2017, 09:33:01 pm
Great video, thanks for your work.

I checked and on V2.00 fw the UART pattern triggering is working.
A bug that I found is that if you try to modify the UART TX (secondary) treshold level it doesn't change. The only way to modify it is to continously push the 'Find Treshold' button until the value is the one you want.

Just for fun I'm attaching an FFT of 868MHZ FSK modulated signal (I've used an external 50ohm terminator).

Best,
0xfede
0xfede - thanks for the feedback on the UART threshold.  The team was able to recreate this and has added it to the bug fix tracker.  There is also a workaround in the meantime - you can change the threshold in the channel menu.

-Rich

Here is one more funny UART "Feature"

I'm doing 921600 bit/s.

When I type it into the Bit Rate - User field - it is parsed first time as 919.12 kBit (how big are your kBits?) - but 2nd time entering the EXACT same number it is parsed as 930.07 kBit/s. 3rd time we are back at 919.12kBit/s - 4th time 930.06kBit/s - and so on...

Neither is related to 1000 OR 1024 dependent on how many bits you think is in a kilo of Bit's.

:)

But I'm not very impressed by the serial decoding either. Please put some effort into that for next firmware version. :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on December 06, 2017, 09:35:45 pm
Great video, thanks for your work.

I checked and on V2.00 fw the UART pattern triggering is working.
A bug that I found is that if you try to modify the UART TX (secondary) treshold level it doesn't change. The only way to modify it is to continously push the 'Find Treshold' button until the value is the one you want.

Just for fun I'm attaching an FFT of 868MHZ FSK modulated signal (I've used an external 50ohm terminator).

Best,
0xfede
0xfede - thanks for the feedback on the UART threshold.  The team was able to recreate this and has added it to the bug fix tracker.  There is also a workaround in the meantime - you can change the threshold in the channel menu.

-Rich

Here is one more funny UART "Feature"

I'm doing 921600 bit/s.

When I type it into the Bit Rate - User field - it is parsed first time as 919.12 kBit (how big are your kBits?) - but 2nd time entering the EXACT same number it is parsed as 930.07 kBit/s. 3rd time we are back at 919.12kBit/s - 4th time 930.06kBit/s - and so on...

Neither is related to 1000 OR 1024 dependent on how many bits you think is in a kilo of Bit's.

:)

But I'm not very impressed by the serial decoding either. Please put some effort into that for next firmware version. :)
Thanks kaz911 for the feedback.  Can you elaborate on other areas you'd like to see improved on the serial decoding front?

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on December 06, 2017, 11:39:15 pm

Thanks kaz911 for the feedback.  Can you elaborate on other areas you'd like to see improved on the serial decoding front?

-Rich

I would like a persistent grab in Bus Table Option - so do not clear Bus Table display before next decoded data rolls in - or roll paper mode so data stays on screen on new lines.

I would also like "realtime" :) decoding before end of scan but I think that might not be possible. Seems like decode happens at the each update interval only. So if you "slow roll" the decode does not happen until "cursor" reach end of screen. At which point a new packet normally starts shortly thereafter - clearing the Bus Table display .... But above mentioned option would help.

Like Mike I would like more than one symbol in a message - now I specify a longer hold-off "Idle Time" to get all the chars on one line in the Bus-Table. In that would be nice to have in the decode screen as well. So everything before the Idle-Time is not split into many hexagons but stays within 1 making it infinitely more readable :)

Next week I'll do some CAN debugging so lets see how that goes (NMEA 2000/DeviceNet cousin)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 07, 2017, 12:04:28 am

Like Mike I would like more than one symbol in a message - now I specify a longer hold-off "Idle Time" to get all the chars on one line in the Bus-Table. In that would be nice to have in the decode screen as well. So everything before the Idle-Time is not split into many hexagons but stays within 1 making it infinitely more readable :)
It's not so much about readability, as getting as much onscreen as possible. The hexagon style bus display has never made much sense for serial decodes, though everyone seems to do it, as a hang-over from parallel busses, where it did make sense.
Higher baudrates, even if just a few fixed rates like 4M and 6M would be nice.
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ppeterl on December 07, 2017, 08:48:09 pm
Fellow forum members, RTB owners, Rich,

So, I took the plunge and ponied up the equivalent of $4000 for a 4 channel 200MHz + PK1 package + Digital channels, upgrading from my trusty old 1054Z. I am perfectly aware that this is a brand new scope model, and that it will be some time until the last bug has been hunted out of it. I chose to factor in the reputation of Rohde & Schwarz brand, as well as their pride in the equipment they manufacture, into my purchasing decision. So I am quite confident that they will step up the game and make this scope as great as it has the potential to be (right Rich?).

Anyhow, I've had the scope for almost a week now, running the latest 2.0 software just released. So I thought I'll contribute with a few bugs I've noted.

1. Lost waveform 1
Set the scope to Run mode and trigger set to Norm (not Auto). Once a trigger and waveform is acquired, hit the zoom button - without first hitting stop - and watch the waveform disappear after a fraction of a second. The opposite fails as well, capture in zoom and go back to normal view also clears waveform.

2. Lost waveform 2
Also in Run mode, Normal trigger; change horizontal scale also clears waveform, unless stop is pressed before. Probably the same bug as above.

3. Single capture in Auto trigger mode.
The "auto" feature of auto seems to trigger a one-shot when in single mode, essentially wasting the trigger on random waveform without trigger.
So, with no input active on a channel and a trigger level of a few volts, scope in "Run" and "Auto"
mode. Hit "Single" and watch the scope capture a zero-level waveform without trigger point.

4. Counter Threshold goes bananas
Feed a 400mV PP, 10 KHz square wave into the scope, set vertical scale to 200mV/div, threshold at 200 mV (Find Threshold), Hysteresis medium.
Set vertical scale to 50µs/div and increase step by step. Note a glitch at 1ms/div. At 100ms/div, threshold goes to 62,92V and the Counter stops working. Also, try to start at horizontal scale 100 ms/div, change down to 50 mv/div. Threshold value goes above the roof again.

On an additional note, I find the Persistence feature really not doing it's job properly. When facing a rare glitch in the waveform, it will shop up as a shadow on the screen, which is fine. However, the persistence setting doesn't seem to affect it's brightness, only the brightness of the regular waveform. Until 100% brightness is reached, then the glitches are displayed in full brightness. I do have a problem reproducing this though, so I'm a bit reluctant to call it a bug at this stage.


Also a couple of feature requests:

Search in zoom mode; it would be great if the zoomed in area followed the search selection, i.e when rotating the selection knob. And a next/prev button besides the search results list would be an improvement.

I think the history (segmented memory) is one of the features that makes this scope stand up above the crowd. It would be super-awesome if it would be possible to search for stuff in the history, similar to how search in waveform works.

Toolbar (upper left): I miss the ability to put the Counter there, I use that a lot, and also the History. Funny, since the Meter is there as well as Search (which also has a dedicated button). Why can some functions be put there but not others?

Don't get me wrong, this is not intended as a whine and complain post; I love my new scope. And if I made some user errors in the reports in this post, please correct me.

--/Peter
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on December 11, 2017, 08:55:30 am
Fellow forum members, RTB owners, Rich,

So, I took the plunge and ponied up the equivalent of $4000 for a 4 channel 200MHz + PK1 package + Digital channels, upgrading from my trusty old 1054Z. I am perfectly aware that this is a brand new scope model, and that it will be some time until the last bug has been hunted out of it. I chose to factor in the reputation of Rohde & Schwarz brand, as well as their pride in the equipment they manufacture, into my purchasing decision. So I am quite confident that they will step up the game and make this scope as great as it has the potential to be (right Rich?).

Anyhow, I've had the scope for almost a week now, running the latest 2.0 software just released. So I thought I'll contribute with a few bugs I've noted.

1. Lost waveform 1
Set the scope to Run mode and trigger set to Norm (not Auto). Once a trigger and waveform is acquired, hit the zoom button - without first hitting stop - and watch the waveform disappear after a fraction of a second. The opposite fails as well, capture in zoom and go back to normal view also clears waveform.

2. Lost waveform 2
Also in Run mode, Normal trigger; change horizontal scale also clears waveform, unless stop is pressed before. Probably the same bug as above.

3. Single capture in Auto trigger mode.
The "auto" feature of auto seems to trigger a one-shot when in single mode, essentially wasting the trigger on random waveform without trigger.
So, with no input active on a channel and a trigger level of a few volts, scope in "Run" and "Auto"
mode. Hit "Single" and watch the scope capture a zero-level waveform without trigger point.

4. Counter Threshold goes bananas
Feed a 400mV PP, 10 KHz square wave into the scope, set vertical scale to 200mV/div, threshold at 200 mV (Find Threshold), Hysteresis medium.
Set vertical scale to 50µs/div and increase step by step. Note a glitch at 1ms/div. At 100ms/div, threshold goes to 62,92V and the Counter stops working. Also, try to start at horizontal scale 100 ms/div, change down to 50 mv/div. Threshold value goes above the roof again.

On an additional note, I find the Persistence feature really not doing it's job properly. When facing a rare glitch in the waveform, it will shop up as a shadow on the screen, which is fine. However, the persistence setting doesn't seem to affect it's brightness, only the brightness of the regular waveform. Until 100% brightness is reached, then the glitches are displayed in full brightness. I do have a problem reproducing this though, so I'm a bit reluctant to call it a bug at this stage.


Also a couple of feature requests:

Search in zoom mode; it would be great if the zoomed in area followed the search selection, i.e when rotating the selection knob. And a next/prev button besides the search results list would be an improvement.

I think the history (segmented memory) is one of the features that makes this scope stand up above the crowd. It would be super-awesome if it would be possible to search for stuff in the history, similar to how search in waveform works.

Toolbar (upper left): I miss the ability to put the Counter there, I use that a lot, and also the History. Funny, since the Meter is there as well as Search (which also has a dedicated button). Why can some functions be put there but not others?

Don't get me wrong, this is not intended as a whine and complain post; I love my new scope. And if I made some user errors in the reports in this post, please correct me.

--/Peter
Thanks Peter for the feedback.  Here are some answers:

1 & 2:  We've been able to reproduce these and the team is working on fixing them.  In the meantime, there is a potential workaround - if you go in to "stop" mode before zooming you shouldn't see this issue.

3:  You can choose how single works by selecting the auto/normal key for a normal trigger.

4.  We're still looking in to this.

5.  For persistence, it is designed that the more frequently a pixel is hit, the brighter it is displayed. If you have an infrequent pulse it is displayed with less intensity (with, as you mentioned,  the exception being with 100% intensity every pixel has got the same intensity no matter haw many times it was hit).   A couple potential suggestions to make the infrequent events show up with more contrast:

a.  You can use "inverse brightness".
b.  You can change the channel color to something like temperature graded.

6.  For "Search in zoom mode; it would be great if the zoomed in area followed the search selection" - you can do this today.  Press the universal rotary knob or turn on "Track Event" in search menu.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 1design on December 12, 2017, 07:48:27 pm
Hi Rich,

can you help me in regards to the Arbitrary generator file format? The only information I was able to get from the user manual is that it should be in a CSV file, but no actual structure?
Thank you very much!

BR
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on December 16, 2017, 10:45:39 am
Hi Rich,

can you help me in regards to the Arbitrary generator file format? The only information I was able to get from the user manual is that it should be in a CSV file, but no actual structure?
Thank you very much!

BR

Dont have my RTB here ... you can try to get a channel csv-file over the MTP or save some channel/reference data as csv-file on your usb drive.
As far as I remember they can use references or channel data as arbitrary input data.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 16, 2017, 10:56:54 am
You can load a saved CSV waveform file - this is a sample I just tried.
Code: [Select]
in s,C1 in V
-1.9992E-03,-6.152E-01
-1.9968E-03,-5.371E-01
-1.9944E-03,-4.590E-01
-1.9920E-03,-5.762E-01
-1.9896E-03,-5.176E-01
-1.9872E-03,-5.566E-01
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on December 18, 2017, 03:13:39 am
Hi Rich,

can you help me in regards to the Arbitrary generator file format? The only information I was able to get from the user manual is that it should be in a CSV file, but no actual structure?
Thank you very much!

BR
Hi 1design - sorry for the slow reply, I've been traveling a lot the last week.  Looks like Mike has you fixed up now. 

I also know I've got a couple PMs - I'll reply ASAP to everyone.  :-+

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 1design on December 19, 2017, 05:08:20 pm
No problem Rich.
Thanks to Mikes prompt reply I got it working now.

I am stil wondering why there is no direct upload option for the AWG. I automate most of my tasks, screenshots, reports, data download and processing etc. Waveform generation and upload is one of the best tasks to automate, but it seems you have to go trough file with this instrument. Did I miss a command for this?

BR
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on December 20, 2017, 10:42:53 am
You can use the following remote commands for setting up an arbitrary waveform.
  WGENerator:ARBitrary:FILE:NAME "/USB_FRONT/MYFILE.CSV"
  WGENerator:ARBitrary:FILE:OPEN
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 1design on December 20, 2017, 12:00:59 pm
I aware of the commands that load a file, what I was looking for is a command that would allow loading data directly into the AWG. This is pretty common practice on stand alone AWGs.
This could be done the same way the trace data is downloaded.

BR
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEngo on January 01, 2018, 06:09:50 pm
Dear Rich,

is there any (actual) chance, that CAN Bus FD and / or Flexray is implemented in (near) future?
Otherwise I'll have to go with a Keysight MSO3000T for 10k€ ... :-\

Thanks,
Ingo.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on January 01, 2018, 06:55:58 pm
Dear Rich,

is there any (actual) chance, that CAN Bus FD and / or Flexray is implemented in (near) future?
Otherwise I'll have to go with a Keysight MSO3000T for 10k€ ... :-\

Thanks,
Ingo.
While both are very fine MSO scopes, if you want economical solution to CAN BUS /Flexray capture/decode best solution is Picoscope. Shuffling through pages of decodes are much better suited to large PC screen, and Picoscopes are available with ridiculous amounts of sample memory...
Of course, if you want classic scope, and will have to decode only occasionally then it might not be for you...
Regards,
Sinisa

EDIT: typos..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on January 01, 2018, 07:19:50 pm
While both are very MSO fine scopes, if you wan't economical solution to CAN BUS /Flexray capture/decode best solution is Picoscope. Shuffling through pages of decodes are much better suited to large PC screen, and Picoscopes are available with ridiculous amounts of sample memory...
Of course, if you want classic scope, and will have to decode only occasionally then it might not be for you...
You can have both if you save the decoded data into a CSV file and use a PC for analysis.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEngo on January 04, 2018, 09:16:44 pm
yes, the picotech decoders are comprehensive, but I'm not sure about the decoding speed.

I am looking for a CAN eye diagram test solution (in future there will be the need of CAN FD and flexray). The task is finding a CAN sender with slightly faulty or ringing signals.
And as you can see on youtube, the X3000T-Series is able to do that  :clap:

The RS scope is a great tool and CAN FD and flexray in the future would be a gamechanger for me  :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on January 16, 2018, 11:49:27 am
Just stumbled over this: seems like R&S finally gave as the bigger brother of their RTB2000 :popcorn:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rs-rtm3004-the-swiss-knife-oscilloscope/new/#new (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rs-rtm3004-the-swiss-knife-oscilloscope/new/#new)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 16, 2018, 12:24:39 pm
I'm supposed to be getting one of these.
There is also a 1000 series, not sure if coming at the same time
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on January 16, 2018, 12:31:08 pm
@mike this can be something for you  ... as i remember you once struggeld with the Hold-Off menu on the RTB2000

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbG4MCU4NPo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbG4MCU4NPo)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on January 16, 2018, 12:36:30 pm
I'm supposed to be getting one of these.
There is also a 1000 series, not sure if coming at the same time
It's called the RTC1000, https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/nl/product/rtc1000-productstartpage_63493-515585.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/nl/product/rtc1000-productstartpage_63493-515585.html)
Looks like a replacement of the Hameg HMO1000 series as a result of the R&S Hameg merger.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on January 16, 2018, 05:58:31 pm
I'm supposed to be getting one of these.
There is also a 1000 series, not sure if coming at the same time
It's called the RTC1000, https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/nl/product/rtc1000-productstartpage_63493-515585.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/nl/product/rtc1000-productstartpage_63493-515585.html)
Looks like a replacement of the Hameg HMO1000 series as a result of the R&S Hameg merger.
I guess it is including the 640x480 display.  :palm: I'd expected they at least upgraded to a higher resolution display.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on January 16, 2018, 06:10:08 pm
Anyone know of a Probe BNC adapter for the RTB probes?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on January 16, 2018, 06:39:39 pm
In conjunction with the announcement of the new scopes, it looks like they have also released the new User Manual for the RTB2000 that goes with FW 0200. I haven't looked at the changes yet. They also have a new "Getting Started" guide for some reason.

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/manual/rtb2000/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/manual/rtb2000/)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 16, 2018, 06:52:15 pm
@mike this can be something for you  ... as i remember you once struggeld with the Hold-Off menu on the RTB2000

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbG4MCU4NPo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbG4MCU4NPo)
Didn't struggle, just that it was too far down the menu so you had to scroll to reach it
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on January 16, 2018, 09:50:21 pm
Anyone know of a Probe BNC adapter for the RTB probes?
The RTB probes are compatible with this kit (made by the same OEM and includes the BNC adapter), which is an absolute bargain if you're within reach of RS:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/ (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on January 16, 2018, 10:39:19 pm
Anyone know of a Probe BNC adapter for the RTB probes?
The RTB probes are compatible with this kit (made by the same OEM and includes the BNC adapter), which is an absolute bargain if you're within reach of RS:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/ (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/)
Thanks, great deal, bought it in an instance.. elsewhere they go for €50..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on January 17, 2018, 12:38:19 am
@mike this can be something for you  ... as i remember you once struggeld with the Hold-Off menu on the RTB2000

Didn't struggle, just that it was too far down the menu so you had to scroll to reach it

But, if I'm not wrong, there is no quick access auto-holdoff, also with this nice drag'n drop functionality on the RTB2000.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on January 17, 2018, 08:28:24 am
Didn't struggle, just that it was too far down the menu so you had to scroll to reach it

Yes ... stumble is more suitable
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 17, 2018, 02:39:34 pm
@mike this can be something for you  ... as i remember you once struggeld with the Hold-Off menu on the RTB2000

Didn't struggle, just that it was too far down the menu so you had to scroll to reach it

But, if I'm not wrong, there is no quick access auto-holdoff, also with this nice drag'n drop functionality on the RTB2000.
Quick access will come to the RTB2000 too  :-+

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: genghisnico13 on January 17, 2018, 06:43:32 pm
So.... I guess we are not getting Basic (Math on Math)? :'(
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on January 17, 2018, 07:02:48 pm
So.... I guess we are not getting Basic (Math on Math)? :'(

Still "elementary"...   :(
Now, waiting for Rich to send upgrade discount vouchers to everybody who got an RTB2K  :box:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 17, 2018, 08:30:36 pm
So.... I guess we are not getting Basic (Math on Math)? :'(
Never say never.  I'm still pushing.  Not something that is guaranteed yet, but it seems like a no-brainer to me to add it as it would clearly be quite useful and doesn't really matter from a differentiation standpoint (i.e. 2000 vs 3000).  Initially, it didn't exist, so it was created as part of the 3000/4000 development.  Now it exists - just a matter of me convincing the right people it should be added in.  Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not - hopefully this time I am! :-+

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 17, 2018, 08:48:59 pm
So.... I guess we are not getting Basic (Math on Math)? :'(
Never say never.  I'm still pushing.  Not something that is guaranteed yet, but it seems like a no-brainer to me to add it as it would clearly be quite useful and doesn't really matter from a differentiation standpoint (i.e. 2000 vs 3000).  Initially, it didn't exist, so it was created as part of the 3000/4000 development.  Now it exists - just a matter of me convincing the right people it should be added in.  Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not - hopefully this time I am! :-+

-Rich

One specific use-case I had the other day  - working on sinusoidal drive for a brushless motor, using lowpass filter to visualise the value of the PWM waveform. My MSOX3104 was a bit slow doing this, so went to compare the RTB2004, but oh, it doesn't have it..!
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on January 18, 2018, 12:08:34 am
So.... I guess we are not getting Basic (Math on Math)? :'(
Never say never.  I'm still pushing.  Not something that is guaranteed yet, but it seems like a no-brainer to me to add it as it would clearly be quite useful and doesn't really matter from a differentiation standpoint (i.e. 2000 vs 3000).  Initially, it didn't exist, so it was created as part of the 3000/4000 development.  Now it exists - just a matter of me convincing the right people it should be added in.  Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not - hopefully this time I am! :-+

-Rich

And trying to parse out other spec differences, the flyer says 6 trigger types for the RTB and 7 for the RTM/RTA, but looking at the datasheets, I see runt, rise and fall time triggers on the RTM/RTA and not on the RTB. Is that correct? I assume that's a spec (sw) limitation, not a hw one, right?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 18, 2018, 08:19:54 pm
So.... I guess we are not getting Basic (Math on Math)? :'(
Never say never.  I'm still pushing.  Not something that is guaranteed yet, but it seems like a no-brainer to me to add it as it would clearly be quite useful and doesn't really matter from a differentiation standpoint (i.e. 2000 vs 3000).  Initially, it didn't exist, so it was created as part of the 3000/4000 development.  Now it exists - just a matter of me convincing the right people it should be added in.  Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not - hopefully this time I am! :-+

-Rich

And trying to parse out other spec differences, the flyer says 6 trigger types for the RTB and 7 for the RTM/RTA, but looking at the datasheets, I see runt, rise and fall time triggers on the RTM/RTA and not on the RTB. Is that correct? I assume that's a spec (sw) limitation, not a hw one, right?
Hi Laurent - I'm not sure.  I'll see what I can find out.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on January 18, 2018, 09:36:14 pm
Anyone know of a Probe BNC adapter for the RTB probes?
The RTB probes are compatible with this kit (made by the same OEM and includes the BNC adapter), which is an absolute bargain if you're within reach of RS:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/ (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/)
Thanks, great deal, bought it in an instance.. elsewhere they go for €50..

Kit came in today and can highly recommend getting one as it not only includes spare tips, ground lead, etc. but also the missing short ground springy clip.

@Rich why is this very useful probe attribute not included with the scope.. can't be cost, even the Rigol's come with it..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on January 19, 2018, 01:12:44 pm

Kit came in today and can highly recommend getting one as it not only includes spare tips, ground lead, etc. but also the missing short ground springy clip.

@Rich why is this very useful probe attribute not included with the scope.. can't be cost, even the Rigol's come with it..
Yes, this (short ground springy clip) is a very useful thing....
But you can do it yourself in a variety of configurations.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 19, 2018, 04:10:03 pm
Anyone know of a Probe BNC adapter for the RTB probes?
The RTB probes are compatible with this kit (made by the same OEM and includes the BNC adapter), which is an absolute bargain if you're within reach of RS:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/ (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/)
Thanks, great deal, bought it in an instance.. elsewhere they go for €50..

Kit came in today and can highly recommend getting one as it not only includes spare tips, ground lead, etc. but also the missing short ground springy clip.

@Rich why is this very useful probe attribute not included with the scope.. can't be cost, even the Rigol's come with it..
Good suggestion - I'll pass it on.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xfede on January 20, 2018, 04:06:02 pm
Hello all,

I've attached a couple of table containing the update rate (measured with the AUX out configured as trigger out and connected to an HP 5334B) of a 10MHZ square wave. My scope is a RTB2004-304M + PK1.
Both tables contains the data @10KSa memory and in auto memory as long as the relative sampling frequencies.
The settings were:
Normal Mode, Acquisition = Sample, decoders-math-menu-fft-counter-Meter-App-etc = off, Channel 1 only, holdoff = off, persistence = off, measurement = off, cursors = off, whatever = off.
In the first table I've used the classic sinx/x interpolation and the dot mode is disabled.
The second table is in Sample-Hold mode and dot mode enable.
Something bizzarre seems to happen between 500us/div and 5us/div particularly when sinx/x interpolation is enabled with significant instability on the measured wfm per second and very low rate also.
Furthermore for unknown reason the 5-2-1 sequence is not respected and instead of 100ns/div we have 80ns/div and instead of 50ns/div we have 40ns/div.

What is happening here?

Best,
0xfede

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on January 22, 2018, 09:30:36 am
 I want to describe some moments which can be changed in the future.
 1. When we set cursors for Ch1 and then make Quick-Meas in Ch4 so we lose cursor positions. Channels combinations may be other.
 2. Cursors (horizontal) cannot be used via the multipurpose knob - because very big step. In the Average & HiRes modes only.
 3. AVG section: sub-mV changes of signal offset not make any effects in real world. 100-200-300-400uV etc it’s empty numbers.
 4. RTB is very precision instrument. But 7-10 digits in the cursors or measurements row are excessive. 5 digits are good number.
   
 Dear Rich many thanks for your efforts.  I hope the mathematics in the RTB is reality. Unfortunately I understood - the logarithmic FFT-scale are top-scope’s-part. I’m very SAD. But I'm delighted also - RTM / RTA excellent tools.  :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xfede on January 22, 2018, 01:33:40 pm
I found something more.

Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.

Someone else may please do the same test?

@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on January 22, 2018, 03:29:38 pm
I found something more.

Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.

Someone else may please do the same test?

@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?

Yes. As i can see (RTB2002) at the other scope, trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xfede on January 22, 2018, 03:40:57 pm
Yes. As i can see (RTB2002), trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.

Thank you for taking your time and perform this measurement.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on January 22, 2018, 04:12:19 pm

Thank you for taking your time and perform this measurement.

Thank's to find it out. I'ts synonymous in my interest too.  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 23, 2018, 02:19:31 pm
I found something more.

Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.

Someone else may please do the same test?

@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?

Yes. As i can see (RTB2002) at the other scope, trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
I'm not at my office so I can't test this, but this sounds normal.  It sounds like you are seeing the buffering of the waveforms and then plotting to the display.  With the scope running at 50,000 wfms/s and the screen refreshing at 60Hz, we buffer about 1,000 wfms and then plot them.  While it is plotting, you should see a longer dead-time.  That plotting time may vary.  Having said that, when I get back in front of my scope I'll test this out to see if it aligns with what I'm thinking and what you're seeing.

-Rich 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xfede on January 23, 2018, 02:27:33 pm
I found something more.

Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.

Someone else may please do the same test?

@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?

Yes. As i can see (RTB2002) at the other scope, trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
I'm not at my office so I can't test this, but this sounds normal.  It sounds like you are seeing the buffering of the waveforms and then plotting to the display.  With the scope running at 50,000 wfms/s and the screen refreshing at 60Hz, we buffer about 1,000 wfms and then plot them.  While it is plotting, you should see a longer dead-time.  That plotting time may vary.  Having said that, when I get back in front of my scope I'll test this out to see if it aligns with what I'm thinking and what you're seeing.

-Rich 

Thank you Rich for your answer but we are not even close @ 50kwfm/s or even 1k. In a previous post I've added a couple of tables with much lower wfm/s rates. In some occasion I can read as low as 20wfm/s.
Furthermore in the tables you can see a progressive increment from 200ms/div to 500us/div where the wfm rate drastically drop.

Just for curiosity: why 80ns/div and 40ns/div instead 100 and 50 respectively?

Best,
0xfede
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on January 23, 2018, 03:25:48 pm
I found something more.

Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.

Someone else may please do the same test?

@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?

Yes. As i can see (RTB2002) at the other scope, trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
I'm not at my office so I can't test this, but this sounds normal.  It sounds like you are seeing the buffering of the waveforms and then plotting to the display.  With the scope running at 50,000 wfms/s and the screen refreshing at 60Hz, we buffer about 1,000 wfms and then plot them.  While it is plotting, you should see a longer dead-time.  That plotting time may vary.  Having said that, when I get back in front of my scope I'll test this out to see if it aligns with what I'm thinking and what you're seeing.

-Rich

Thanks Rich for your answer. My test was simpler than that, if i got you right. I'm only looking to pulses at trigger-aux-out in real time with second scope. The rtb2k has nothing to do as displaying the triggered 10Mhz square and showing the triggerpulses at aux.

Best regards.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 23, 2018, 03:27:53 pm
I found something more.

Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.

Someone else may please do the same test?

@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?

Yes. As i can see (RTB2002) at the other scope, trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
I'm not at my office so I can't test this, but this sounds normal.  It sounds like you are seeing the buffering of the waveforms and then plotting to the display.  With the scope running at 50,000 wfms/s and the screen refreshing at 60Hz, we buffer about 1,000 wfms and then plot them.  While it is plotting, you should see a longer dead-time.  That plotting time may vary.  Having said that, when I get back in front of my scope I'll test this out to see if it aligns with what I'm thinking and what you're seeing.

-Rich 

Thank you Rich for your answer but we are not even close @ 50kwfm/s or even 1k. In a previous post I've added a couple of tables with much lower wfm/s rates. In some occasion I can read as low as 20wfm/s.
Furthermore in the tables you can see a progressive increment from 200ms/div to 500us/div where the wfm rate drastically drop.

Just for curiosity: why 80ns/div and 40ns/div instead 100 and 50 respectively?

Best,
0xfede
Sorry - missed that post with the tables.  I'm checking and will get back ASAP. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 24, 2018, 03:57:20 pm
I found something more.

Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.

Someone else may please do the same test?

@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?

Yes. As i can see (RTB2002) at the other scope, trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
I'm not at my office so I can't test this, but this sounds normal.  It sounds like you are seeing the buffering of the waveforms and then plotting to the display.  With the scope running at 50,000 wfms/s and the screen refreshing at 60Hz, we buffer about 1,000 wfms and then plot them.  While it is plotting, you should see a longer dead-time.  That plotting time may vary.  Having said that, when I get back in front of my scope I'll test this out to see if it aligns with what I'm thinking and what you're seeing.

-Rich

Thanks Rich for your answer. My test was simpler than that, if i got you right. I'm only looking to pulses at trigger-aux-out in real time with second scope. The rtb2k has nothing to do as displaying the triggered 10Mhz square and showing the triggerpulses at aux.

Best regards.
Got an update from R&D this morning - they don't see exactly what you are seeing, but do see something similar at another timebase.  It may be normal (sometimes there are interactions between the software and hardware that could cause this), but they are investigating.

I'll keep you up-to-date.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 24, 2018, 04:03:18 pm
Quick update on advanced math for the RTB2000 - no promises, but it is looking quite positive that we'll add it.  Unlikely in the next rev (it is already pretty set), but hopefully in the following revision after that.   :-+

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 24, 2018, 04:41:00 pm
Quick update on advanced math for the RTB2000 - no promises, but it is looking quite positive that we'll add it.  Unlikely in the next rev (it is already pretty set), but hopefully in the following revision after that.   :-+

-Rich
Number of channels ?
The 5 channels on the 3000, and ability to do maths on other maths results have some interesting possibilities - already have one idea for something interesting to use it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on January 25, 2018, 12:19:01 pm
I found something more.

Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.

Someone else may please do the same test?

@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?

Yes. It work with regular or irregular packets. I'm don't see 50 kwfs also.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mateusz12bob on January 25, 2018, 07:07:26 pm
Hello, I would like to ask those who have purchased "Active 8-channel logic-HO3508" or would you share the inside of this probe if it was not a problem? because he wants to know if it's worth to buy such a component, or designing it his way.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 25, 2018, 09:33:25 pm
Hello, I would like to ask those who have purchased "Active 8-channel logic-HO3508" or would you share the inside of this probe if it was not a problem? because he wants to know if it's worth to buy such a component, or designing it his way.
See my teardown vid. There is quite a lot in it, would be a lot of work to DIY
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mateusz12bob on January 28, 2018, 12:21:18 pm
Hello, I would like to ask those who have purchased "Active 8-channel logic-HO3508" or would you share the inside of this probe if it was not a problem? because he wants to know if it's worth to buy such a component, or designing it his way.
See my teardown vid. There is quite a lot in it, would be a lot of work to DIY

Thank you for help, from what I see in the movie there are a lot of elements there, but if I had this logical probe, I would design a similar one if there was no microcontroller  programmed because he would probably be blocked, I must also admit that R & S well thought  and designed this probe.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on January 28, 2018, 08:34:56 pm
when watching this video comparing the power consumption and the statistics of the X3000T and RTB2000, I'm wondering how can it be that the RTB2004 gathers more statistics although it by pure data-sheet has a lower update rate?  https://youtu.be/LpjTisUQQ84?t=18m20s
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Someone on January 29, 2018, 02:51:26 am
when watching this video comparing the power consumption and the statistics of the X3000T and RTB2000, I'm wondering how can it be that the RTB2004 gathers more statistics although it by pure data-sheet has a lower update rate?  https://youtu.be/LpjTisUQQ84?t=18m20s
They appear to be collecting statistic points at a similar speed in that video, the counts are increasing at the same rate when they are side by side looking at the oscillator. The slow measurement rate compared to the waveform rate is because the waveform rendering is a hardware/FPGA process, and in the Keysight the measurements are then taken from the rendered outputs (screen data) so it never sees the original samples (and wouldn't keep up). Whats the application for fast statistics? Most higher end scopes process the original samples and can do the statistics faster along with useful stats on stats like histograms, but those architectures don't reach the fastest realtime update rates.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on January 29, 2018, 04:42:30 pm
Just saw a youtube video where RTB2004 has been measured at <0.5W power use in standby: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpjTisUQQ84 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpjTisUQQ84)
This lines up with my measurement (using a much cheaper meter which I didn't trust), and eliminates any concern I have regarding standby power use without a real ON/OFF control.

Rich - is there any reason why you guys don't put this number in the datasheet? If standby use was poor then I'd understand omitting it, but it seems low enough to be worth putting in the datasheet to assuage any fears of high standby use.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 29, 2018, 05:33:39 pm
Just saw a youtube video where RTB2004 has been measured at <0.5W power use in standby: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpjTisUQQ84 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpjTisUQQ84)
This lines up with my measurement (using a much cheaper meter which I didn't trust), and eliminates any concern I have regarding standby power use without a real ON/OFF control.

Rich - is there any reason why you guys don't put this number in the datasheet? If standby use was poor then I'd understand omitting it, but it seems low enough to be worth putting in the datasheet to assuage any fears of high standby use.
Good thought - I'll pass it on to the team.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 29, 2018, 05:54:15 pm
This is the datasheet for the PSU in the 2004, which shows 0.4/0.5W typ/max : https://www.xppower.com/Portals/0/pdfs/LF_ECS65-130.pdf (https://www.xppower.com/Portals/0/pdfs/LF_ECS65-130.pdf)
The 3004 PSU datasheet doesn't give a figure http://www.meanwell.com/Upload/PDF/EPP-200/EPP-200-SPEC.PDF (http://www.meanwell.com/Upload/PDF/EPP-200/EPP-200-SPEC.PDF) but extrapolating from my cheap crappy plug-in power meter is probably a little under 1W


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on January 29, 2018, 07:07:59 pm
Mike - the Meanwell datasheet says "No Load Power Consumption <0.5W" on the front page feature list but then omits it from the actual data section (why do people do that with important specs!?).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: surface_waves on January 31, 2018, 09:05:49 pm
I have narrowed a scope purchase to the R&S RTB2004 and Keysight 3000X series. 

Many thanks to the participants in this forum, youtube videos from Dave, mikeselectricstuff, mjlorton, MichaelBRothschild, and others.

Yesterday I was beat in the last 10 seconds (and by $50) on a great ebay deal for a new 300MHz RTB2004 with all options, which ended up selling for $3,267:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Scope-with-ALL-Options-2-5GS-s-300-MHz-4-16-MSO-NIB-NR/332530370156?epid=6005865238&hash=item4d6c5ac66c:g:me8AAOSw0A9aOv1s (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2004-Scope-with-ALL-Options-2-5GS-s-300-MHz-4-16-MSO-NIB-NR/332530370156?epid=6005865238&hash=item4d6c5ac66c:g:me8AAOSw0A9aOv1s). 

Arrggh!!!!

It was from a company who had ordered two and had a project cancelled, so never opened the second one.  I can't get the knot out of my stomach.

I have two end use cases for a scope:
1) Serial decoding and embedded work.
2) RF and time synchronized baseband analysis (requires external 10MHz reference input, so minimum of 4000X series or RTE series)

Use case 1) was the interest for this scope.

From my point of view, here are the pros and cons of the RTB2004 scope compared to Keysight 3000T X series.  I understand that the RTM3000 series is what should be compared directly, but due to the Keysight 3000T being on the market longer, I can find used units with similar pricing to the RTB2000.

RTB2004 Pros:
*Best looking and most flexible interface (the interface looks really nice and useful)
*Interface to PC screen capability is built in (vs ~$500 add on for Keysight)
*10 bit ADC (significant)
*More memory and ability to control memory settings (significant)
*Fast startup (minor, it's only a minute)
*Low standby power (minor, can use hard switch, but Keysight should fix this or explain the 6W standby)
*Remembers settings upon power cycling (nice to have)

RTB2004 Cons (vs 3000X):
*No advanced math (Rich said this has a good chance of coming with future updates, but this is limiting currently)
*No 50ohm input (significant for me)
*Max 300MHz bandwidth (major difference vs 1GHz max)
*Lacks some of the more advanced decoding protocols (significant)
*Less responsive (significant)

The option bundle special for R&S expires today, but I can't get my head around paying (2,080 + 630)*1.0975 ~= $3,000 for a 70MHz version of the scope given that to upgrade to 300MHz (still not as high as I'd like) will increase the price to over $6K, which is in the pricing realm of finding used Keysight with 1GHz BW.  For example:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-MSOX3104A-1-GHz-4-Analog-16-Digital-Ch-Mixed-Signals-Oscilloscope/253398414378?hash=item3affb8f42a:g:8nMAAOSwGzxZgigW (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-MSOX3104A-1-GHz-4-Analog-16-Digital-Ch-Mixed-Signals-Oscilloscope/253398414378?hash=item3affb8f42a:g:8nMAAOSwGzxZgigW)

I'm not sure that I understand the R&S bandwidth upgrade pricing either.  It looks like you might pay more to upgrade the BW later?  I'm referencing this options/pricing list:
https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=457823 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=457823)

It appears to me that option RTB2K-302MP.33 is $4K to upgrade the 70MHz scope to 300MHz and add the MSO option. 
Scenario 1: Purchase 70MHz 4channel model ($2,080) today, literally Jan. 31, 2018 is the last day for the $630 special for all software options.  Subtotal = $2,710.  Later, add upgrade option RTB2K-302MP.33 ($4K) to add 300MHz and MSO.  Total: $6,710
Scenario 2: Purchase fully loaded version now or later.  Doesn't require the special ending today.  Total: $6,185

For those okay with low bandwidth, the software special is helpful, but if you want 300MHz the regular price $525 less.  Correct me if I'm not getting it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on January 31, 2018, 10:53:08 pm
If you're doing a lot of serial decoding work, consider that the RTB2k will only decode at half duplex per decode channel - you get a total of one full duplex decode or two half duplex (I2C/CAN only take one channel). On the other hand, you can move/resize bus decodes on the screen and it's smart about fitting the maximum amount of info into whatever size you've picked. The screen and memory depth are also major positives compared to alternatives. I can't really comment more, having not used the 3000X series in person.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 31, 2018, 10:54:49 pm
If you're doing a lot of serial decoding work, consider that the RTB2k will only decode at half duplex per decode channel - you get a total of one full duplex decode or two half duplex (I2C/CAN only take one channel). On the other hand, you can move/resize bus decodes on the screen and it's smart about fitting the maximum amount of info into whatever size you've picked. The screen and memory depth are also major positives compared to alternatives. I can't really comment more, having not used the 3000X series in person.
It also does packet framing
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: markb82 on February 01, 2018, 12:16:24 am
RTB2004 Cons (vs 3000X):
*No 50ohm input (significant for me)

The 50ohm termination has been discussed before for this scope and others, and lacking it is really not an issue because you can just use a 50 ohm feed-through bnc terminator.


The option bundle special for R&S expires today, but I can't get my head around paying (2,080 + 630)*1.0975 ~= $3,000 for a 70MHz version of the scope

I feel the same way, and was also paying close attention to that eBay auction.  That said, if it was made hackable to 300MHz, say by someone first dumping the NW190 (MT29F4G08ABBDAH4-IT) Micron NAND flash the Altera SOC boots from....


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheSteve on February 01, 2018, 12:40:16 am
If you ever plan to use active probes consider the 3000x series or the new RS RTM3004 model.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 01, 2018, 12:43:03 am
If you ever plan to use active probes consider the 3000x series or the new RS RTM3004 model.
But bear in mind that used older Agilent probes ( i.e. cheaper) will only work on the Keysight (some need minor mods).
The R&S probe supply is 5V and USB interface so at the very least you'd need a seperate PSU - not sure what voltage the Agilent ones use but expect probably +/-something higher
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Yansi on February 01, 2018, 12:46:32 am
As far as I remember reverse engineering a current probe TCP-202, the supply voltages on Agilent probes is dual +-5V and +-15V. I think this Tek probe could be plugged into Agilent scopes, but I stay being corrected.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 01, 2018, 11:39:28 am
Just accidentally discovered you can combine roll and XY modes :
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/959025632830197761

I'm sure there must be some application for this....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on February 01, 2018, 03:32:10 pm
That's cool!  :) Is xy mode refresh rate ~speedy or as slow as in other DSOs?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: CharlieEcho on February 01, 2018, 03:46:39 pm
Yesterday I was beat in the last 10 seconds (and by $50) on a great ebay deal for a new 300MHz RTB2004 with all options...Arrggh!!!!...It was from a company who had ordered two and had a project cancelled, so never opened the second one.  I can't get the knot out of my stomach.

Always, always, always use a sniping service for auctions like this. I like Gixen: https://www.gixen.com/index.php (https://www.gixen.com/index.php)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: yashrk on February 01, 2018, 04:01:02 pm
Hey guys I just got the RTM 3004 scope for the week any suggestions on what should I test ??
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 01, 2018, 04:23:17 pm
That's cool!  :) Is xy mode refresh rate ~speedy or as slow as in other DSOs?
Fast - as fast as normal display mode
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on February 01, 2018, 07:48:13 pm
Just accidentally discovered you can combine roll and XY modes :
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/959025632830197761

I'm sure there must be some application for this....
... application is hula hoop dancing ...  :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fgrir on February 01, 2018, 08:12:30 pm
I have narrowed a scope purchase to the R&S RTB2004 and Keysight 3000X series. 
...

I have fully optioned out MSOX3024A and RTB2004 on my bench, and I can safely say that I use the RTB whenever I can and only fire up the MSOX when I have to.  Capability wise the MSOX has a few advantages like more decode formats, full-duplex decodes, advanced math, higher wfms/sec, etc., but the RTB's big screen, web interface and modern UI makes using the MSOX feel almost painful sometimes.

I honestly don't know which I'd choose if I had to have only one though...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on February 02, 2018, 08:23:48 am
Just accidentally discovered you can combine roll and XY modes :
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/959025632830197761

I'm sure there must be some application for this....

... got it ...

Some  Arduino sets come up with a small joystick. Based on two pots for horizontal and vertical movement.
There XY with roll mode enabled is very useful. Triggered acquisition might be disturbing there.
Lets add some persistence and have a happy developer.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: exe on February 02, 2018, 09:56:24 am
Hey guys I just got the RTM 3004 scope for the week any suggestions on what should I test ??

UI responsiveness? May be a few drop tests? "How electrically robust is your is your meter oscilloscope"?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 02, 2018, 11:20:14 am
Hey guys I just got the RTM 3004 scope for the week any suggestions on what should I test ??

UI responsiveness? May be a few drop tests? "How electrically robust is your is your meter oscilloscope"?
UI responsiveness is no better than the 2004 - some aspects are fine but others can be really annoying (compared to Keysight) - buttons and touches getting missed, especially when the scope gets busier.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: yashrk on February 05, 2018, 06:22:43 pm
Hey guys I just got the RTM 3004 scope for the week any suggestions on what should I test ??

UI responsiveness? May be a few drop tests? "How electrically robust is your is your meter oscilloscope"?
UI responsiveness is no better than the 2004 - some aspects are fine but others can be really annoying (compared to Keysight) - buttons and touches getting missed, especially when the scope gets busier.


Most of the UI is done well but the zooming in on an signal is just better on Keysight. And UI does takes time to get used to.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: markb82 on February 06, 2018, 08:02:24 pm
Just got my RTB2004.  Has anyone else noticed a high pitch whine when the scope is in standby mode (mains plugged in, but scope off)?  It is rather loud compared to my working environment.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kkessler on February 06, 2018, 08:15:28 pm
Mine's completely silent when in standby
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: markb82 on February 06, 2018, 09:35:45 pm
Mine's completely silent when in standby

Sounds like either a ceramic cap or inductor is vibrating in mine (probably on the power supply).  Has anyone experienced failures of the power supply?  (a different thread mentions that the RTB2000 series has seen power supply failures)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: markb82 on February 06, 2018, 11:11:54 pm
Not sure if this bug has been reported, but here goes.  The scope seems to have a sampling issue when you drop it down to 625 Msps.  See video for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uOdgFoK8WA&t=2s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uOdgFoK8WA&t=2s)

Scope firmware is at 2.00.

To reproduce this:

1. Connect a scope channel to the probe compensation port.
2. Set sample time-scale to 2ms/div (this will cause the sample rate to be set to 625Msps).
3. Enable zoom and zoom in on the rising edge.
4. The rising edge will be dancing around a bit.
5. Back off to 1ms/div and the scope will show the proper rising edge (1.25Gsps).
6. Go back to 625Msps.
7. Enable either envelope or peak-detect, and now the rising edge moves forward by about 7ns.


P.S.  I really like this scope, so I hope it doesn't have to go back to get the power supply looked at.  Right now I'm just using the hard switch on the back of the unit when not in use.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: josema on February 07, 2018, 05:40:46 am
Just got my RTB2004.  Has anyone else noticed a high pitch whine when the scope is in standby mode (mains plugged in, but scope off)?  It is rather loud compared to my working environment.

Just got mine last week and I noticed the same noise. Not sure if it was normal. No failure on the power supply, though.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on February 07, 2018, 06:50:11 am
I have a launch unit in USA(120v, 60hz) and no noise.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on February 07, 2018, 08:17:37 am
Own an early one 230V 50Hz. Almost silent.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 07, 2018, 06:28:31 pm
I wonder if someone did an unbiased comparison of the RTB2K vs. the Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 as they should be roughly in the same price range, both have a touch screen and comparable features and memory sizes.
The main technical difference seems 10bit (R&S) vs. 8bit (Lecroy) and 2.5 GSa/s (R&S) vs. 4 GSa/s (Lecroy) sampling rate - where I would honestly value the sampling rate higher.
E.g. from browsing the manual, the R&S seems to miss a complex trigger feature while the Lecroy has a "Smart Trigger" which allows at least a bit of complexity. But maybe I'm mistaken regarding the R&S.
I'm also not sure if the search functions of the R&S come close to the "WaveScan" feature of the Lecroys.
Then again, I used a Wavesurfer 3000 at work and found it to be quite a bit sluggish (compared to a bigger Lecroy) and some things to be annoying like it entering the roll mode early on higher time bases.
At least from the videos I saw, the GUI of the R&S seems to be a bit sleeker.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: markb82 on February 07, 2018, 06:35:50 pm
I wonder if someone did an unbiased comparison of the RTB2K vs. the Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 as they should be roughly in the same price range, both have a touch screen and comparable features and memory sizes.
The main technical difference seems 10bit (R&S) vs. 8bit (Lecroy) and 2.5 GSa/s (R&S) vs. 4 GSa/s (Lecroy) sampling rate - where I would honestly value the sampling rate higher.
E.g. from browsing the manual, the R&S seems to miss a complex trigger feature while the Lecroy has a "Smart Trigger" which allows at least a bit of complexity. But maybe I'm mistaken regarding the R&S.
I'm also not sure if the search functions of the R&S come close to the "WaveScan" feature of the Lecroys.
Then again, I used a Wavesurfer 3000 at work and found it to be quite a bit sluggish (compared to a bigger Lecroy) and some things to be annoying like it entering the roll mode early on higher time bases.
At least from the videos I saw, the GUI of the R&S seems to be a bit sleeker.

That would be a good comparison, but the Wavesurfer 3000 has an active probe interface and 50 ohm termination, so it may be more directly comparable to the RTM3000 series (except for price?)?

0xbaadf00d

Edit:

Couple other differences is a lower res screen on the Wavesurfer and models all the way to 750 MHz.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on February 07, 2018, 08:34:16 pm
I wonder if someone did an unbiased comparison of the RTB2K vs. the Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 as they should be roughly in the same price range, both have a touch screen and comparable features and memory sizes.
The main technical difference seems 10bit (R&S) vs. 8bit (Lecroy) and 2.5 GSa/s (R&S) vs. 4 GSa/s (Lecroy) sampling rate - where I would honestly value the sampling rate higher.
E.g. from browsing the manual, the R&S seems to miss a complex trigger feature while the Lecroy has a "Smart Trigger" which allows at least a bit of complexity. But maybe I'm mistaken regarding the R&S.
I'm also not sure if the search functions of the R&S come close to the "WaveScan" feature of the Lecroys.
Then again, I used a Wavesurfer 3000 at work and found it to be quite a bit sluggish (compared to a bigger Lecroy) and some things to be annoying like it entering the roll mode early on higher time bases.
At least from the videos I saw, the GUI of the R&S seems to be a bit sleeker.
- UI in the WS3k is slow as hell when record lenght is more than 100kpts
- Wavescan in the WS3k is a joke, very few parameters you can analyze (and trigger from), nothing you can't do with advanced triggers (slew rate, pulse lenght, ..) . Plus, with wavescan on the acqusition rate drops in the 10-100 wfm/s. That's because the scope acquires, analyze the acquisition, places markers and then rearm the trigger.
- touch screen is an ancient resistive type POS. very inaccurate, slow to react and if you press to do things like zoom the cursor jumps around. better use a mouse.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 07, 2018, 09:49:55 pm
Admittedly I really only used WaveScan in higher end Lecroys and not in the WS3K series but having e.g. hundreds of adjacent periods for analysis is something completely different than being able to trigger on a period.
I mean, it's not rocket science but it saved me from exporting data and running scripts on it in some cases.
And I don't care for a large deadtime if heavy analysis is done on the whole capture buffer and wouldn't want to sacrifice it for the pseudo-analog look of the Keysight DSOX scopes that can only perform analysis on the frame buffer. In the end, every scope has a deadtime during analysis. I understand that there are two different ideologies there and I'm clearly on the Lecroy side of it.
I also haven't problems with a resistive touchscreen. But agreed, when I (shortly) worked with scopes of the WS3K series, even things like zooming in felt slow.
My main gripe with the WS3K still is that it seems to enter roll mode in timebases where a higher end Lecroy with only slightly more memory but higher sample rate doesn't and I don't really get why.

Anyway: any remark on the trigger system of the RTB2K? Like I totally love the multi stage trigger system of higher end Lecroys and when I last played with the smart trigger of the WS3K it seemed to offer at least two conditions with a timing to allow something like triggering on the 2nd edge that occurs within 20ms or so. At least from reading the manual of the R2BK it's unclear to me if something like this could be achieved with the pattern trigger.

Admittedly I didn't really fully notice that the RTB2K doesn't support active probes. I guess this also means it can't automatically switch to 1:10 attenuation if you connect a probe? That's a bit of PITA as even my trusty old HMO2024 can do that. Not a total showstopper but a bit of meh.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 07, 2018, 10:31:42 pm

Anyway: any remark on the trigger system of the RTB2K? Like I totally love the multi stage trigger system of higher end Lecroys and when I last played with the smart trigger of the WS3K it seemed to offer at least two conditions with a timing to allow something like triggering on the 2nd edge that occurs within 20ms or so. At least from reading the manual of the R2BK it's unclear to me if something like this could be achieved with the pattern trigger.

The RTM3K supports multiple edge triggers - it's possible these may find their way to the 2000
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 08, 2018, 01:01:32 am
Would be cool but I guess they might as well to keep as many as possible advanced feature exclusive to the RTM3K.
The RTM3K sure looks nice but it seems that about everything there costs twice as much as for the RTB2K.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on February 08, 2018, 07:09:18 am
Admittedly I really only used WaveScan in higher end Lecroys and not in the WS3K series but having e.g. hundreds of adjacent periods for analysis is something completely different than being able to trigger on a period.
I mean, it's not rocket science but it saved me from exporting data and running scripts on it in some cases.
And I don't care for a large deadtime if heavy analysis is done on the whole capture buffer and wouldn't want to sacrifice it for the pseudo-analog look of the Keysight DSOX scopes that can only perform analysis on the frame buffer. In the end, every scope has a deadtime during analysis. I understand that there are two different ideologies there and I'm clearly on the Lecroy side of it.

I'm also more of a lecroy fan and i agree with everything you said, but facts are facts and the fact is that scope doesn't have the processing power it really needs to do the few things it can.
UI being so slow to react you could not be sure it recognized that you pressed a button or the touch panel.

I digged up the manual: what can you do with the wavescan for WS3K?
-Edge: Count edges. Coooool. with level per-edge. but i'm sure i can set up a window trigger (rising/falling erde but level inside window) for that and use search functions
-Runt: Runt pulse trigger already exist
-Non-Monothonic, this is admittely a bit harder to do with trigger
-Measurement mode. I liked this mode, apply a measurement per-element. but i can do the same in the keysight by using a math trace and displaying the measurement, which i found more useful to do in a couple of scenarios

but the real problem is that you miss a lot of acquisition, going from several thousand to a couple tens of. you're lucky if your problem shows up, but your chances to see it are reduced by a factor of 1000.
I found this to be a real problem.

Anyway back on topic: do these scope let you DISPLAY a measurement trace? for example, i've set up "frequency" measurement, "frequency" trace should show a horizontal segment on each wave cycle, the level of the segment is the frequency of the wave cycle
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on February 08, 2018, 08:36:26 am
Anyway back on topic: do these scope let you DISPLAY a measurement trace? for example, i've set up "frequency" measurement, "frequency" trace should show a horizontal segment on each wave cycle, the level of the segment is the frequency of the wave cycle

Picoscope does...And they now have something called "Deep measure" that seems to be doing lots of stuff like Wavescan...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on February 08, 2018, 11:06:46 am
 Yesterday found a feature of the new 2.0 firmware. And it has an effect!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 08, 2018, 11:19:58 am
Anyway back on topic: do these scope let you DISPLAY a measurement trace? for example, i've set up "frequency" measurement, "frequency" trace should show a horizontal segment on each wave cycle, the level of the segment is the frequency of the wave cycle
Not as far as I can tell, on either the RTB2000 or RTM3000
The MSOX3104 can do this ( maths-> measure trend)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on February 08, 2018, 12:13:11 pm
Yesterday found a feature of the new 2.0 firmware. And it has an effect!

... in many cases keys dispappear when they are not available ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on February 13, 2018, 09:52:37 am
I know that the Keysight can, i did it while we had the loaner.
I know that the picoscope CAN do it, in fact i'm doing this while writing this post.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=394620;image)
In this picture, i have two signals that should transmit the same information, one in the analog domain (0-5V) and one in the digital domain (0-100%) duty cycle.
The orange trace is a math trace with the formula 5*duty(B)/100
this is a very useful feature in both the pico and the keysight, i'd like to know if the RTB/RTM had that feature

(what's with the deep measurement thing? is it only on the new beta? i tend not to run the beta because i have a lot of crashes compared to zero with the stable application. also, if it's what i think it is, i suppose i won't need that as i'm using an older 2000A series with 48 kpts of memory, it always uses the full trace for decode+measurements)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 13, 2018, 10:19:16 am

The orange trace is a math trace with the formula 5*duty(B)/100
this is a very useful feature in both the pico and the keysight, i'd like to know if the RTB/RTM had that feature

No, AFAICS the R&S scopes don't have this facility
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on February 13, 2018, 11:17:29 am

(what's with the deep measurement thing? is it only on the new beta? i tend not to run the beta because i have a lot of crashes compared to zero with the stable application. also, if it's what i think it is, i suppose i won't need that as i'm using an older 2000A series with 48 kpts of memory, it always uses the full trace for decode+measurements)

DeapMeasure is only in beta so far.  It works by measuring few important params for every single period in buffer (or across all buffers) and creates statistic table. You can export it to XLS file directly and make statistical analysis. It has potential. We will see..

I have been using my Picoscope a lot lately. It's just much quicker for some things, and 24" screen is just awesome.... And math is very advanced. That helps a lot too... Also, custom probes are a fantastic thing...
All in all, while it cannot replace full blown scope all the time, it is well worth money I paid for it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on February 13, 2018, 12:35:40 pm
DeapMeasure is only in beta so far.  It works by measuring few important params for every single period in buffer (or across all buffers) and creates statistic table. You can export it to XLS file directly and make statistical analysis. It has potential. We will see..

I have been using my Picoscope a lot lately. It's just much quicker for some things, and 24" screen is just awesome.... And math is very advanced. That helps a lot too... Also, custom probes are a fantastic thing...
All in all, while it cannot replace full blown scope all the time, it is well worth money I paid for it.

oooh.. very nice. That's one half of what wavescan does, indeed. The other half would be triggering on certain conditions.. which the pico can't do as it can only trigger on edges / windows of edges

Anyway, R&S: Take the hint ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on February 13, 2018, 01:42:24 pm
oooh.. very nice. That's one half of what wavescan does, indeed. The other half would be triggering on certain conditions.. which the pico can't do as it can only trigger on edges / windows of edges

Well, my 3000 series has Edge, window, pulse width, window pulse width, dropout, window dropout, interval, logic, runt pulse...  It is not quite Wavescan, but it is pretty much equivalent to Zone trigger... :-)
And it has 512 Msamples memory.... As I said, very useful little thing....

Also, in fast acquisition mode, it can grab 10000 of acquisitions buffers (triggered) in 6 msec burst at 1GS/sec.
That is more than 1 million triggers per second .... That is without screen updates, of course, but you can do that and then do DeepMeasure on captured data across all 10000 buffers...

As analytic scope it is very useful.
Regards,

Sinisa
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JPortici on February 13, 2018, 01:51:16 pm
Yes, mine too (with the limitations on wfm/s and samplerate given by its older architecture and mainly lower memory). but it can't trigger on protocols of any kind or on slew rate over/under threshold, or on measurement over/under x and all the other nice things wavescan is supposed to have
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on February 13, 2018, 02:12:32 pm
I also find a PC connected scope is a useful addition to a bench scope for analysis type tasks. PC based stuff sometimes gets a bad rep for lack of buttons&knobs but I think it's more about having the right tool for the job, which is sometimes a bench unit and sometimes a PC one.

The RTB2000 can actually do a respectably fast burst capture with "fast segmentation" mode on (I think this is part of the history function, which is stupidly an optional extra) - from memory I got a few hundred thousand waveforms per second in my testing. This mode skips waveform display, dumping everything straight into the history buffer (which is generous at 160 megasamples per channel). What I haven't done yet is to play with any event/serial searches in this history buffer.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on February 13, 2018, 02:17:52 pm
I also find a PC connected scope is a useful addition to a bench scope for analysis type tasks. PC based stuff sometimes gets a bad rep for lack of buttons&knobs but I think it's more about having the right tool for the job, which is sometimes a bench unit and sometimes a PC one.


Exactly what I think!! Well said!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on February 13, 2018, 03:37:28 pm
It's also a lot easier to drag around a PC scope in a laptop bag - by the end of April mine will have clocked up over 100,000km in the air! My RTB2004 has only done NYC->London, about 5% of that.

That said, one of my favorite stories is about the Tek 453 "portable": http://readingjimwilliams.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/scope-sunday-3.html (http://readingjimwilliams.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/scope-sunday-3.html)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: porker1972 on February 14, 2018, 04:04:16 pm
I wonder if someone did an unbiased comparison of the RTB2K vs. the Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 as they should be roughly in the same price range, both have a touch screen and comparable features and memory sizes.
The main technical difference seems 10bit (R&S) vs. 8bit (Lecroy) and 2.5 GSa/s (R&S) vs. 4 GSa/s (Lecroy) sampling rate - where I would honestly value the sampling rate higher.
E.g. from browsing the manual, the R&S seems to miss a complex trigger feature while the Lecroy has a "Smart Trigger" which allows at least a bit of complexity. But maybe I'm mistaken regarding the R&S.
I'm also not sure if the search functions of the R&S come close to the "WaveScan" feature of the Lecroys.
Then again, I used a Wavesurfer 3000 at work and found it to be quite a bit sluggish (compared to a bigger Lecroy) and some things to be annoying like it entering the roll mode early on higher time bases.
At least from the videos I saw, the GUI of the R&S seems to be a bit sleeker.

There's absolutely no point in a digital scope having a real-time sample rate more than 5x the bandwidth. The analogue filter does not pass through any signal content that the higher digitising speed will capture, so effectively the higher sample rate just uses more memory with no advantage. (The theoretical optimal sample rate is 3.8x bandwidth).

Equally, the extra bits of dynamic range are useless unless the rest of the signal path is improved - I remember the first LeCroy 12-bit scopes were still only effectively 7 bits, and there were interleaving/jitter problems as the higher dynamic range reduces sample speed, so two channels were interleaved, causing timing mis-match so bad that even sinewaves at fmax were terrible.

There's a type of WaveScan in most scopes, e.g. Tek's WaveInspector and the Keysight version, whatever it's called. They are nice tools but if you don't know what you are looking for, the fast update rate is what saves you. LeCroy is pig slow in that respect, and Keysight is still the winner.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 14, 2018, 05:44:09 pm
About the sample rate you need to keep in mind that the WS3K has up to 750MHz and my understanding is that at least for the models below 500MHz, the frontend is identical.
Besides all of these 4ch scopes usually half the sampling rate if you use both channels on the same ADC. I.e. 4GSa/s become 2GSa/s and 2.5GSa/s become 1.25GSa/s.
Last but not least, with segmented memory, you could capture multiple short events with high sampling rate and still not use excessive amounts of memory (btw. it's a let-down that segmented memory is an option on the RTB2K and an excessively expensive one on top of that).
Anyway, the Keysight 3000T X series has 5GSa/s and only 4Mpts, so compared to that, even the WS3K has a more sensible ratio between sample rate and memory.

Regarding Wavescan vs. Tek/Keysight data analysis, members like "sausage dog" would argue that WaveScan is superior. Actually what I have used it for so far is something I could also achieve with a proper history function.
And yes, all the Lecroys are somewhat slowish since they're doing every analysis from the sample memory on the main CPU and the WS3K is specifically slow with statistic or decoding activated. Then again, IMHO doing the analysis over the whole consistent sample buffer is much better than doing it from the screen buffer like other (especially Keysight) scopes.
Anyway, I hate to admit that the slow serial decoding of a WS3K looks totally unsexy compared to the very fast decoding on a RTB2K. I'm unsure if the RTB2K always decodes the whole sample buffer or tricks by only decoding the screen buffer, but the slow update rate of the WS3K in decode mode sure is something that would annoy me.

I still tend to think that the WS3K has better trigger options (Smart Trigger), but generally it's frustrating to see that only the absolute high end (Lecroy) scopes seem to have somewhat appropriate multi stage triggering or statistics that allow to define gating, set thresholds or at least configure the active edge.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Nouser2018 on March 02, 2018, 12:54:11 pm
Just got my RTB2004.  Has anyone else noticed a high pitch whine when the scope is in standby mode (mains plugged in, but scope off)?  It is rather loud compared to my working environment.

Got mine two weeks ago. Silent when in standby (yellow indicator light). By contrast, my desktop HMC-8012 has a 50Hz hum when switch on, regardless of being in standby or turn on fully. That's quite annoying but R&S didn't want to replace the PSU, they said it was normal. The RTB2004 is very noisy when turned on though; it's the fan.

I like it very much so far, UI sluggishness is ok, but one thing bothers the h3ck out of me, and that's the 3MBit UART decoder. The HMO could do 31MBit, and in version 400 of the datasheet from last year the RTB2000 series could do 32MBit as well. But, already in datasheet version 402 they degraded it to 3MBit.

Could someone from R&S elaborate on that? Apparently, the hardware is capable, but was limited afterwards for some reason.

I work with PICs on internal RC @32MHz a lot and use their UARTs at 4MBit; and that the scope cannot decode the messages annoys the cr4p out of me. Yes, I should have read the datasheet carefully, but who would think that this unit is one whole order of magnitude worse than its predecessor(s)? Even the Keysight can do 8MBit / s.

And, fun fact:

not that you'd need those bit rates in those bus systems, but still. The limited UART decoder is an impediment though.

I'm hoping that they change that back to the 32MBit, or at least increase it to the value the competition can do (8MBit). Otherwise great device.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 02, 2018, 01:05:59 pm

I like it very much so far, UI sluggishness is ok, but one thing bothers the h3ck out of me, and that's the 3MBit UART decoder. The HMO could do 31MBit, and in version 400 of the datasheet from last year the RTB2000 series could do 32MBit as well. But, already in datasheet version 402 they degraded it to 3MBit.
The fact that the RTM3004 can do 6M suggest the hardware should be at least capable of that

Quote
Even the Keysight can do 8MBit / s.
Even the Keysight 1000 can  do UART to 10M ( user settable up to 8, then fixed 10), and the MSOX3000 can also do 12M

Quote
And, fun fact:
  • CAN is specified @5Mbit, but you can only select 2 Mbit in the firmware 2.00
  • LIN is specified @5MBit, but you can only select 2.52MBit in the firmware 2.00
On the RTM3004, CAN is still only up to 2M, but LIN is up to 5M

I can see that timing granularity may mean that they can't do arbitary higher rates, but fixed rates of at least 4 and 6 would be a very welcome addition
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Nouser2018 on March 02, 2018, 02:16:38 pm
out of curiosity, why would you need a LIN framing @5Mbit? Or, CAN framing @5Mbit? Were those not specified to 20kbit and 1Mbit max data rates respectively? Have never worked with both, though...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: genghisnico13 on March 02, 2018, 02:25:07 pm
Since we are complaining....
Is there any reason why the horizontal positioning does not have acceleration? Having a touch screen and being able to select and write the position is a good workaround but I think it would be better to also have acceleration.

On the bright side, I want to tell you that you choose a good power supply for the scope. A week ago my power company decided to send a phase trough the neutral and I had a peak of 360v(at least that was what I saw on the panel meter when I cut the power to my house) and the scope survived with no problems. Unfortunately my Keithley 2015,  which was also on,  blew a fuse and now readings are a little bit off.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on March 03, 2018, 07:44:54 pm
Some really nice vids about the RTB2K, decoding, debugging, history mode, etc.
They are now 3 month there, but only about 50 views and one thumbsup, they deserve more!

Here is one. But look at the chanel, there are more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6wcPIvdPyw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6wcPIvdPyw)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: sixtimesseven on March 11, 2018, 10:37:10 pm
Has anyone bought a case / bag for his rtb2004?
I mean a non rohde schwarz one (https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB-Z3/Cases/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB-Z3/Cases/))?
Because honestly 200$+ is a bit ridicolus for a flimsy cloth bag (I had it in my hands). I searched this thread for "bag" / "case" but so far nothing usefull.

If somebody already found a fitting solution, please let me know. Thank you :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: korlatos on March 12, 2018, 12:41:36 am
This is the one I got - it's a very solid case, and Tequipment is a great vendor to do business with.

https://www.tequipment.net/IWH/DSO-Case-Deluxe/Cases/ (https://www.tequipment.net/IWH/DSO-Case-Deluxe/Cases/)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Ghislain on March 22, 2018, 03:23:34 pm
When I need a rugged protective case I usually look at the cases from B&W. They are not cheap either but at least they are high quality and offer a large degree of overall protection.
The 6000 model may fit the bill for carrying your scope (I use it for my SA).
It is worthwhile shopping around, I often find better prices elsewhere than the one on Amazon: https://www.amazon.de/outdoor-cases-Typ-6000-W%C3%BCrfelschaum-SI/dp/B00H3R77DQ/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1521731234&sr=8-4&keywords=b%26w+6000&dpID=41x8F%252BkRooL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch (https://www.amazon.de/outdoor-cases-Typ-6000-W%C3%BCrfelschaum-SI/dp/B00H3R77DQ/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1521731234&sr=8-4&keywords=b%26w+6000&dpID=41x8F%252BkRooL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch)   

PS. The case from R&S is certainly far from bad (and definitely looks nicer) but it does not provide the same level of protection (padded nylon) as the B&W one does 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: casinada on March 22, 2018, 08:36:51 pm
Too much money  :-\
This is more reasonable:
http://www.planomolding.com/hunting/handgun/all-weather-pistol-case-large (http://www.planomolding.com/hunting/handgun/all-weather-pistol-case-large)
https://www.amazon.com/Plano-108021-Pistol-Accessories-Latches/dp/B0029KKWVQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1521750381&sr=8-2&keywords=plano+108021&dpID=516uKEbT7YL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch (https://www.amazon.com/Plano-108021-Pistol-Accessories-Latches/dp/B0029KKWVQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1521750381&sr=8-2&keywords=plano+108021&dpID=516uKEbT7YL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch)
I'm sure there are other options. I haven't looked for soft cases yet.  :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Ghislain on March 23, 2018, 09:25:13 am
Too much money  :-\
This is more reasonable:
http://www.planomolding.com/hunting/handgun/all-weather-pistol-case-large (http://www.planomolding.com/hunting/handgun/all-weather-pistol-case-large)
https://www.amazon.com/Plano-108021-Pistol-Accessories-Latches/dp/B0029KKWVQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1521750381&sr=8-2&keywords=plano+108021&dpID=516uKEbT7YL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch (https://www.amazon.com/Plano-108021-Pistol-Accessories-Latches/dp/B0029KKWVQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1521750381&sr=8-2&keywords=plano+108021&dpID=516uKEbT7YL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch)
I'm sure there are other options. I haven't looked for soft cases yet.  :-//

These could indeed do too although at first glance it looks like they may be too small (height), the according to the spec sheet the dimensions of the scope (W x H x D) are:
15.4 x 8.66 x 5.98 inches
390 x 220 x 152 mm
Also make sure you have some space left to accomodate for the accessories.
In the end, the selection of an appropriate solution (hard shell, soft shell, size) exclusively depends upon your particular use case and budget  ;)


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: casinada on March 23, 2018, 05:09:30 pm
Scope            L=15.40in. x W=8.66in.   x H=5.98in.
Case 108021  L=18.38in. x W=14.25in. x H=8in   $60.50
Case  108031 L=20.75in. x W=16.5in. x H=9.25in. $68.94
 :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on March 23, 2018, 09:49:20 pm
Hopefully, R&S will still remember things like promised functionalities, such as the necessary advanced math. trigger possibilities, and already mentioned things like drag'n drop quick access, etc.

It's getting a bit too quiet around the RTB2K.

Hello Rich, what's new out there in the moment?    ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 23, 2018, 09:57:21 pm
Hopefully, R&S will still remember things like promised functionalities, such as the necessary advanced math. trigger possibilities, and already mentioned things like drag'n drop quick access, etc.

It's getting a bit too quiet around the RTB2K.

Hello Rich, what's new out there in the moment?    ;D

In the QA thread he mentioned april/may as probable next release.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on March 24, 2018, 07:26:13 pm
I don't think R&S promised anything and I would personally not have any such expectations. Just be pleasantly surprised if they do add some what has been common and basic functions present in low end scopes that are missing.


Hopefully, R&S will still remember things like promised functionalities, such as the necessary advanced math. trigger possibilities, and already mentioned things like drag'n drop quick access, etc.

It's getting a bit too quiet around the RTB2K.

Hello Rich, what's new out there in the moment?    ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on March 24, 2018, 07:52:05 pm
I don't think R&S promised anything and I would personally not have any such expectations. Just be pleasantly surprised if they do add some what has been common and basic functions present in low end scopes that are missing.

It always cracks me when people say things like this. This scope can do more than most people are capable of or need. Low end scopes cost $249, have 50M bandwidth and cases with holes that don't fit just right.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 24, 2018, 08:21:57 pm
Hopefully, R&S will still remember things like promised functionalities, such as the necessary advanced math. trigger possibilities, and already mentioned things like drag'n drop quick access, etc.

It's getting a bit too quiet around the RTB2K.

Hello Rich, what's new out there in the moment?    ;D
Haven't forgotten, and as far as I know they are still planned, but as mentioned before, the advanced math will likely be in the summer timeframe.  Not sure on the quick access (could be the next release or perhaps the summer).

In general, I expect new FW updates about every 3-4 months for the 2000/3000/4000.  We just introduced the 3000/4000 in January.  3-4 months will put us in April/May which aligns with the R&D team's expectations as well.  Of course that could change (faster/slower), but on average that is what I expect we'll see.   :-+

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on March 25, 2018, 01:13:42 am
Glad I can make you laugh. I have a full option RTB2004 and do like it, but the fact is, some lower end scopes have some features the RTB does not.

I don't think R&S promised anything and I would personally not have any such expectations. Just be pleasantly surprised if they do add some what has been common and basic functions present in low end scopes that are missing.

It always cracks me when people say things like this. This scope can do more than most people are capable of or need. Low end scopes cost $249, have 50M bandwidth and cases with holes that don't fit just right.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 25, 2018, 01:15:13 am
Glad I can make you laugh. I have a full option RTB2004 and do like it, but the fact is, some lower end scopes have some features the RTB does not.
For example ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 25, 2018, 01:23:58 am
I don't think R&S promised anything and I would personally not have any such expectations. Just be pleasantly surprised if they do add some what has been common and basic functions present in low end scopes that are missing.
It always cracks me when people say things like this. This scope can do more than most people are capable of or need. Low end scopes cost $249, have 50M bandwidth and cases with holes that don't fit just right.
Perhaps low-end is the wrong term but 1Mpts FFT and free-form math (for example) can be found on good oscilloscopes which are much cheaper (while having the same bandwidth) compared to the regular price of the RTB2004. As I wrote before: the RTB2004 really needs to offer more bang-for-the-buck to be competitive. A bigger screen and 10 bit ADCs aren't going to do it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on March 25, 2018, 01:34:51 am
SDS1204X has better math, so do others. To be closer in performance, the SDS2304 series. There are some things I measure that good intensity grading would be nice, The RTB does not do a great job at it, but then when I bought it, it was never advertised as doing so. Though I have not personally tried them, I have seen videos ( some from Dave ) that show lower cost Rigols and Siglents doing a great job at it.

Glad I can make you laugh. I have a full option RTB2004 and do like it, but the fact is, some lower end scopes have some features the RTB does not.
For example ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on March 25, 2018, 01:36:38 am
Hi Rich,

So does this mean some of these wishlist items have moved from maybe to plan of record?

Hopefully, R&S will still remember things like promised functionalities, such as the necessary advanced math. trigger possibilities, and already mentioned things like drag'n drop quick access, etc.

It's getting a bit too quiet around the RTB2K.

Hello Rich, what's new out there in the moment?    ;D
Haven't forgotten, and as far as I know they are still planned, but as mentioned before, the advanced math will likely be in the summer timeframe.  Not sure on the quick access (could be the next release or perhaps the summer).

In general, I expect new FW updates about every 3-4 months for the 2000/3000/4000.  We just introduced the 3000/4000 in January.  3-4 months will put us in April/May which aligns with the R&D team's expectations as well.  Of course that could change (faster/slower), but on average that is what I expect we'll see.   :-+

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on March 25, 2018, 01:57:23 am
For my uses, the math functions are not as interesting, more/better triggering options would be. What I miss is an event A followed by event B type triggers.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 25, 2018, 08:39:35 am
SDS1204X has better math, so do others. To be closer in performance, the SDS2304 series. There are some things I measure that good intensity grading would be nice, The RTB does not do a great job at it,
Not familiar with the cheaper scopes, but certainly compared to the Keysight, the intensity grading on the RTB definitely has room for improvement - probably just needs some tweaking of the curve. I think an issue is they don't compensate for the effect of the small pixels on avarage intensity - this is a particular issue on digital channels, where the verticals disappear at all but the brightest intensity setting.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on March 25, 2018, 01:48:50 pm
Hi Rich,

So does this mean some of these wishlist items have moved from maybe to plan of record?

Your own words:

Quote
I would personally not have any such expectations. Just be pleasantly surprised if they do add some what has been common and basic functions present in low end scopes that are missing.

Lacked there about the irony-tags ...   :palm:

 :horse:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on March 25, 2018, 07:17:32 pm
I don't get your point, there's nothing contradictory here. There has been lots of discussion of what features people think are missing in this scope. There has been talk about some of these things might be considered. If they are now plan of record, that would be a pleasant surprise. So what's the issue??

Hi Rich,

So does this mean some of these wishlist items have moved from maybe to plan of record?

Your own words:

Quote
I would personally not have any such expectations. Just be pleasantly surprised if they do add some what has been common and basic functions present in low end scopes that are missing.

Lacked there about the irony-tags ...   :palm:

 :horse:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on March 25, 2018, 08:34:52 pm
If they are now plan of record, that would be a pleasant surprise. So what's the issue??

No more issue now.
It's alright, that you've got it, too.  :-+ :clap:  :clap:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xfede on March 27, 2018, 09:49:22 am
Hello Rich,

I just spotted another minor bug:
the probe ratio is not restored when loading a setup.

Best,
0xfede
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 28, 2018, 01:22:51 pm
Hello Rich,

I just spotted another minor bug:
the probe ratio is not restored when loading a setup.

Best,
0xfede
Hi 0xfede - I just tried to reproduce this and it seems to be working fine for me, but perhaps my setup was too simple (just changed the attenuation to 1000:1, saved and then reloaded and it was still set at 1000:1) - would you mind PM'ing me how you saw it? 

Thanks.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on March 28, 2018, 01:30:05 pm
Hi 0xfede - I just tried to reproduce this and it seems to be working fine for me, but perhaps my setup was too simple (just changed the attenuation to 1000:1, saved and then reloaded and it was still set at 1000:1) - would you mind PM'ing me how you saw it? 

I think you should save, change it (10:1) and then do the restore...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 28, 2018, 01:38:06 pm
Hi 0xfede - I just tried to reproduce this and it seems to be working fine for me, but perhaps my setup was too simple (just changed the attenuation to 1000:1, saved and then reloaded and it was still set at 1000:1) - would you mind PM'ing me how you saw it? 

I think you should save, change it (10:1) and then do the restore...
I did a preset, so it returned to 1:1 before loading the saved setup (but also just tried your suggestion too and it still worked). 

One thing to note - if you have a probe attached (e.g. a passive probe with a sense resistor), it will maintain what the probe setting is (in this case 10:1) even if you try to load a setup with a different attenuation.  Perhaps this is what you're seeing? 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 28, 2018, 02:21:52 pm
One thing to note - if you have a probe attached (e.g. a passive probe with a sense resistor), it will maintain what the probe setting is (in this case 10:1) even if you try to load a setup with a different attenuation.  Perhaps this is what you're seeing? 
The 2004 doesn't have probe sensing
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 28, 2018, 02:26:53 pm
One thing to note - if you have a probe attached (e.g. a passive probe with a sense resistor), it will maintain what the probe setting is (in this case 10:1) even if you try to load a setup with a different attenuation.  Perhaps this is what you're seeing? 
The 2004 doesn't have probe sensing
Duh - I’m an idiot.  :-[. I was trying this on my 3000. Sorry folks. I’ll reproduce on my 2000 and submit.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xfede on March 28, 2018, 05:34:35 pm
One thing to note - if you have a probe attached (e.g. a passive probe with a sense resistor), it will maintain what the probe setting is (in this case 10:1) even if you try to load a setup with a different attenuation.  Perhaps this is what you're seeing? 
The 2004 doesn't have probe sensing
Duh - I’m an idiot.  :-[. I was trying this on my 3000. Sorry folks. I’ll reproduce on my 2000 and submit.

-Rich

Well, if to correct this bug you will exchange your 3k for my 2k I will be very happy  ;D

Thanks you for your time.

Best,
0xfede
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Ghislain on March 28, 2018, 09:18:57 pm
Rich, I have not immediately found a reference in this thread to what is shown in the link below, may be good to add it to the bug list....
It is easily reproducable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uOdgFoK8WA&t=21s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uOdgFoK8WA&t=21s)



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: sixtimesseven on April 01, 2018, 11:46:58 am
My rtb2004 goes to a state were it only let's my switch on one single channel. As soon as I try to activate another channel the first switches of.
I couldn't find a mention of this "feature" in the manual, nor did a google and forum search turn anything up. It disapears when I boot back with default parameters, still it is very annoying.

Any idea how to switch that off?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xfede on April 01, 2018, 12:24:18 pm
My rtb2004 goes to a state were it only let's my switch on one single channel. As soon as I try to activate another channel the first switches of.
I couldn't find a mention of this "feature" in the manual, nor did a google and forum search turn anything up. It disapears when I boot back with default parameters, still it is very annoying.

Any idea how to switch that off?

The only time I saw something similar happening is with QuickMeas enabled. Maybe this is your case?
QuickMeas allows only one channel at a time.

Happy Easter,
0xfede
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on April 11, 2018, 11:14:26 pm

Haven't forgotten, and as far as I know they are still planned, but as mentioned before, the advanced math will likely be in the summer timeframe.  Not sure on the quick access (could be the next release or perhaps the summer).

In general, I expect new FW updates about every 3-4 months for the 2000/3000/4000.  We just introduced the 3000/4000 in January.  3-4 months will put us in April/May which aligns with the R&D team's expectations as well.  Of course that could change (faster/slower), but on average that is what I expect we'll see.   :-+

-Rich

Well this is good news!  My immediate need for the scope got satisfied last year after receiving it. Has been on the shelf since.  I just discovered the V2.000 FW and installed!  Excellent, some update progress there, reading through the release notes. And Rich you talked Corporate into advanced math, woohoo!! Good work, a huge thanks there. I've read back through the thread a few pages and see the maths package was created for the 3000 and you were able to get a port OKed to the 2004. Slick. :)

I expect to be needing the scope again soon, so looking forward to that summer release. :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: glowman on April 13, 2018, 02:46:57 am
Hi, just got my RTB2004 (100mhz & all decode option upgraded).  I noticed that if you use I2C decoding, and disconnect the SDA, the scope hangs.  This is reproducible by just using the demo included in the scope.

Just to make sure I did the right thing, here are the steps I did:
- Press "preset" (just to make sure all are in default)
- Under demo, protocols, run I2C
- Connect probes C1 and C2 to P0 and P1 respectively as instructed.
- Adjust trigger level to get proper trigger (scope then shows decoded output)
- After a few seconds (30 seconds or so) disconnect the C2 probe
Whole unit now "hangs". All buttons/presses unresponsive except the soft power button.  Sometimes it won't hang right away but, if you reconnect and disconnect for few times (with natural contact bounce of the probe), it will hang.

Can anyone please test this to verify?  Did I do something wrong? I mean, is it a natural tendency to hang if it's done?

Thanks.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on April 13, 2018, 01:51:20 pm
Hi, just got my RTB2004 (100mhz & all decode option upgraded).  I noticed that if you use I2C decoding, and disconnect the SDA, the scope hangs.  This is reproducible by just using the demo included in the scope.

Just to make sure I did the right thing, here are the steps I did:
- Press "preset" (just to make sure all are in default)
- Under demo, protocols, run I2C
- Connect probes C1 and C2 to P0 and P1 respectively as instructed.
- Adjust trigger level to get proper trigger (scope then shows decoded output)
- After a few seconds (30 seconds or so) disconnect the C2 probe
Whole unit now "hangs" all buttons/presses unresponsive except the soft power button.  Sometimes it won't hang right away but, if you reconnect and disconnect for few seconds (with natural contact bounce of the probe) it hangs.

Can anyone please test this to verify?  Did I do something wrong? I mean, is it a natural tendency to hang if it's done?

Thanks.
Hi glowman - thanks for posting such a detailed explanation.  This is fixed in the next release (it's tied to ASCII decode).

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on April 14, 2018, 04:25:32 pm
Quote
Can anyone please test this to verify?  Did I do something wrong? I mean, is it a natural tendency to hang if it's done?

Thanks.
RTB2002 @70mhz, RTB-B1, RTB-PK1, same issue.

Thanks to you and Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Ghislain on April 15, 2018, 02:14:30 pm
...
I'm not sure that I understand the R&S bandwidth upgrade pricing either.  It looks like you might pay more to upgrade the BW later?  I'm referencing this options/pricing list:
https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=457823 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=457823)

I am having the same question and it has not unfortunately been answered here.
E.g. User has bought the 70 to 100 MHz upgrade (RTB-B241) and now wants to upgrade from 100 MHz to 200 or even 300 MHz, how would that work? Is the licence cost for the 70 MHz to 100 MHz upgrade deducted from the cost to upgrade from 70 MHz to 200 or 300 MHz? Every catalogue item only takes the upgrade starting from 70 MHz into account.
@Rich, can you please clarify this?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on April 16, 2018, 03:19:03 am
...
I'm not sure that I understand the R&S bandwidth upgrade pricing either.  It looks like you might pay more to upgrade the BW later?  I'm referencing this options/pricing list:
https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=457823 (https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/?pitem=457823)

I am having the same question and it has not unfortunately been answered here.
E.g. User has bought the 70 to 100 MHz upgrade (RTB-B241) and now wants to upgrade from 100 MHz to 200 or even 300 MHz, how would that work? Is the licence cost for the 70 MHz to 100 MHz upgrade deducted from the cost to upgrade from 70 MHz to 200 or 300 MHz? Every catalogue item only takes the upgrade starting from 70 MHz into account.
@Rich, can you please clarify this?
I believe the plan is to eventually set up each BW step, but in the meantime, at least in the US, we just discount it out for customers so they only pay for the step needed.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on May 09, 2018, 04:12:17 am
Hi Rich, any updates on the firmware? Any goodies in?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 09, 2018, 12:24:23 pm
Hi Rich, any updates on the firmware? Any goodies in?
Yes - should be out this week or early next for the 2000.  There are some of the goodies we've talked about (e.g. quick access of the menus being added to the 2000), with some additional ones still planned for the next release - like advanced math (I'm expecting late summer to early fall for that one). 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: glowman on May 09, 2018, 03:28:31 pm
I've been checking this page and the firmware update page of R&S, 2 times a day hoping for some news about the firmware update.  Finally there is... and very soon :clap:  Hope the bug fixes will not be left out especially the hang on ASCII decode.

Thanks Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on May 14, 2018, 03:09:42 am
Did anyone try and find debug ports or similar on this scope? Wondering how well the firmware is locked down.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: glowman on May 17, 2018, 12:02:30 pm
hi Rich,

Any updates on the release date of the new firmware for RTB2004/2?  It's almost the end of the week...

Thanks.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 17, 2018, 12:38:02 pm
Any updates on the release date of the new firmware for RTB2004/2?  It's almost the end of the week...
I think the developers had too much Bradwurst & beer on the 1st of May  ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mroths5905 on May 17, 2018, 12:46:52 pm
I am also looking forward to the new firmware update.  I have made a number of videos about my RTB2004 on YouTube (“MichaelBRothschild”) and am looking forward to making a video with the updated firmware and its new features. Hope the update is soon. Please Rich could you advise release date for firmware? Many thanks Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 17, 2018, 01:05:29 pm
hi Rich,

Any updates on the release date of the new firmware for RTB2004/2?  It's almost the end of the week...

Thanks.
My understanding is any day.  I apologize and know everyone is patiently waiting.  Sorry for the delay  :-\

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 17, 2018, 01:07:04 pm
Any updates on the release date of the new firmware for RTB2004/2?  It's almost the end of the week...
I think the developers had too much Bradwurst & beer on the 1st of May  ;D
:-DD There are a lot of German holidays in May! 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: GreyWoolfe on May 17, 2018, 02:41:35 pm
Any updates on the release date of the new firmware for RTB2004/2?  It's almost the end of the week...
I think the developers had too much Bradwurst & beer on the 1st of May  ;D

Are you saying that like it's a bad thing?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on May 17, 2018, 05:24:50 pm
Any updates on the release date of the new firmware for RTB2004/2?  It's almost the end of the week...
I think the developers had too much Bradwurst & beer on the 1st of May  ;D
:-DD There are a lot of German holidays in May! 

-Rich
Thats true. And because it is often a Tuesday or Thursday, people use the Monday or Friday as a bank holiday and sometimes people take a week off here:
1. May, 30. April bank holiday
10. May, 11. May bank holiday
21. May
31. May, 1. June bank holiday
thus many working days are gone, thus new firmware may take longer.

Nobody complains .... but the employer.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on May 17, 2018, 10:22:58 pm
I am also looking forward to the new firmware update.  I have made a number of videos about my RTB2004 on YouTube (“MichaelBRothschild”) and am looking forward to making a video with the updated firmware and its new features. Hope the update is soon. Please Rich could you advise release date for firmware? Many thanks Michael
Hi Michael,
I really enjoy your YT videos about the RTB2K and its comparison to others. That's why my "thanks" rubberpount to you. Want more of this vids.   :-+
And, welcome to the forum.  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 22, 2018, 01:43:47 pm
Hi Everyone,

The new RTB2000 FW should be out shortly - it has been released to the web team for posting.  In the meantime, here are the release notes (as always, this may not capture everything, but should give a pretty thorough overview):

New Function of Firmware V02.101:
V02.101 Vertical zoom: Use the zoom tool from tool bar to draw a rectangle and zoom into.
V02.101 Quick Access: Pull out a menu item and drag onto the screen. Also use the tool in tool bar.
V02.101 Auto Scale in channel short menu.
See channel short menu (touch on channel segment in signal bar if channel switched on).
V02.101 Option RTB-K15:
History menu available. Touch on History item in main menu.
V02.101 Option RTB-K15:
Analyze functions Overlay, Average and Envelope in segment player.
See menu 'History' item 'Show History'.
V02.101 Tool Menu History. See configuration tool bar.

Modifications of Firmware V02.101:
V02.101 Option RTB-K15:
Increased segment numbers with 50ksample, 500ksample and 5Msample record length.
V02.101 FFT start frequency value limited to 0 Hz and stop frequency limited to sample rate / 2.
V02.101 Reduced channel segments in signal bar when channel off.
V02.101
Initial roll mode: Trace fills screen from left side to right side.
V02.101 Note on frequency limitation of the Meter in footer.
V02.101 Closing button in zoom mode added.
V02.101 Acquisition memory is set to maximum when roll mode on.
V02.101 Front panel firmware updated to version 01.011.
Battery management improved.
V02.101 Various improvements in GUI and languages.

Improvements of Firmware V02.101:
V02.101 Solved: Wrong calculation of counter threshold with clipped ADC data.
V02.101 Solved: Wrong displayed bus data with parallel or parallel-clocked bus if the horizontal
position during stop mode changed.
V02.101 Solved: Firmware blocker if I2C bus decoded and 'Display Settings' set to 'ASCII'.
V02.101 Solved: In acquisition average or high resolution mode only coarse cursor positioning with
horizontal cursors.
V02.101 Solved: Wrong date saved in CSV file if the acquisition not complete.
V02.101 Solved: Possible spike in waveform data with infinity persistence and manually device
operation.
V02.101 Solved: Trigger offset of 10ns with peak detect and 625MSa sample rate.
V02.101 Solved: Option RTB-K15:
After mask violation history player stops one segment to late.
V02.101 Solved: Option RTB-K15:
History player overlays segment table with maximized waveform window.
V02.101 Solved: MTP function with Windows 10:
Windows prevents copying files to the instrument with file extensions unknown to Windows.

Known issues of Firmware V02.101:
V02.101 Connection via USB-TMC: Read function 'viReadSTB' does not answer.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on May 22, 2018, 02:08:00 pm
Wow, that's a big afterburner. Thanks a lot.
(Ok, than additionally math-triggerfunction next time?  ;) )

 :-+ :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 22, 2018, 02:10:19 pm
Wow, that's a big afterburner. Thanks a lot.
(Ok, than additionally math-triggerfunction next time?  ;) )

 :-+ :-+
My understanding is that is (currently) planned in the late summer/early fall release.   :-+

Thanks,
Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: glowman on May 23, 2018, 04:43:52 am
Wow, thanks!  Can't wait to flash it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mroths5905 on May 23, 2018, 01:34:24 pm
I have just installed the latest firmware V02.101 (22nd-May-2018) and it installed and runs perfectly.

I am intending either later today or tomorrow to post another video on YouTube (“MichaelBRothschild”) showing the new features this firmware update offers.  So far I have tried the “Quick Menu” and “Zoom” facility which look very impressive.  I am intending to hopefully produce a full demonstration of the new features including the additions to the “History” menu which appear quite in-depth.

Hopefully the videos will be useful to anyone considering buying the RTB2002/2004.  Really looking forward to the next update with hopefully some more Maths functions; this would add the final icing to the cake!

Regards

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: sstepane on May 23, 2018, 01:42:51 pm
Michael,

Thanks for the video in advance. I have ordered RTB2004 and while it is on its way - will surely watch your videos to be prepared!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on May 24, 2018, 08:59:23 am
 The 02.101 software is already available on the website of R&S.

 Stepan ! :-+ Congratulations.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: eetechTom on May 24, 2018, 02:52:12 pm
At the university where I work, having data and screen image capture such as BenchVue is essential. I have not been able to find any R&S software for this, which is a non-starter for us. I see a $1000.00 plus software package with no mention of image capture (at a quick glance).

We are most likely going to go with Keysight's 1000x or 2000x series anyway, but I would like to be sure regarding R&S software for future reference.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on May 24, 2018, 02:57:30 pm
Hi,

The web interface lets you capture screenshots and transfer data easily.

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: eetechTom on May 24, 2018, 03:05:14 pm
Thanks for the quick response Octane. A rep is coming here next Wednesday to give us a demo, so we can check that out then.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: eetechTom on May 24, 2018, 03:09:44 pm
Thanks for the quick response Octane. A rep is coming here next Wednesday to give us a demo, so we can check that out then.
Connecting these to the network might not be possible here, but we shall see. No network switches allowed in our establishment. :(
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: eetechTom on May 24, 2018, 03:11:36 pm
Duh, they will be connected to a pc with internet, think I need to go to lunch now  :-[
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mroths5905 on May 24, 2018, 03:44:29 pm
Hi, just to advise you I am virtually postive (99.9%) that you can capture all data and screenshots via USB if you don’t wish to use the network connection. Alternatively you could attach the RTB2004 directly to a laptop with a RJ45 Ethernet connector to avoid connecting to a major network. I have connected my RTB2004 directly to my iMac27 and also to an older MacBookPro with RJ45 connector (good old days that Apple Mac’s had ports built-in).

I have a video on YouTube showing the networking software (“MichaelBRothschild”) which runs flawlessly and very fast.  You can also set-up for captures  (various data can be selected via on screen menu of RTB2004) to USB Memory Stick on front USB port on scope with a single “One-Touch” button operation.

Hope the above might be of help. I may consider showing data download in a future video.

Regards

Michael

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: eetechTom on May 24, 2018, 05:36:17 pm
I've read bad things about the new Keysight instrument interface software, beginning with the fact it is no longer free.
At this point in time we are only doing image, and data capture with the software currently being used (Intuilink is most cases).

We can get a 35% edu discount on the Keysight scopes we are looking at, but a software license for each box must be purchased to get the discount.
R&S offers a 20% edu discount.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 24, 2018, 05:47:53 pm
I would prefer a web browser based solution for doing remote captures over dedicated PC software. In my experience dedicated PC software usually requires specific NI Visa versions which may not run on (slightly) older Windows versions. I've ran into so many problems with PC based instrument control software that I don't even care about it any more. There are some exceptions ofcourse but if I need to do something remote I just write a small program to do the specific task. With a web based interface OTOH you only need a standard web browser and it should even be possible to use a smartphone or tablet to do screen captures.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fgrir on May 24, 2018, 06:41:59 pm
Found a small bug with the vertical zoom - it doesn't seem to move the trace labels when you adjust the zoom scale and offset.  See attached...

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ws2812b on May 24, 2018, 06:47:15 pm
Yep, I actually reaally like the USB feature. Works like plugin in your Smartphone/USB thumb drive. Never saw anything that convenient before.
They also put up a short video on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK76jMVvFGU&list=PL769512276A07E771&index=23 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK76jMVvFGU&list=PL769512276A07E771&index=23)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on May 24, 2018, 10:28:55 pm
With a web based interface OTOH you only need a standard web browser and it should even be possible to use a smartphone or tablet to do screen captures.

Yes, I can do that with the RTB2004. It's a very nice feature.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on May 24, 2018, 10:38:18 pm
Hi,

The web interface lets you capture screenshots and transfer data easily.

Michael
And live screen update and remote control.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: glowman on May 28, 2018, 08:14:38 am
Hi Michael,

I'm anxiously waiting for your review on the new features.  I have some observations/bugs found but, will just wait for your reviews.

Thanks.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mroths5905 on May 28, 2018, 01:10:48 pm
Hi.

I hopefully going to try and get my firmware update review uploaded later today or tomorrow at the latest

I have been testing the new firmware and found one small bug (to date) with the pattern generator software which causes the RTB2004 to crash and require a re-boot. The software has options for I2S (audio), which I wonder if are a possible error from code for the RTM3000 with this feature?

Hopefully have the review uploaded shortly.

Kind regards

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: sixtimesseven on June 01, 2018, 02:35:19 pm
I really like the 10bit data capability of the rtb2004. Unfortunatly data transfer is really slow. However, hooked up to gigabit ethernet the 20Mpoints memory of a channel transfer in about 40s.

I wrote a very quick python module and script which requests channel data and performs an fft on the hole aquisition memory. So far it just plots the data.

https://github.com/sixtemesseven/RTB200x (https://github.com/sixtemesseven/RTB200x)

Anyway, i thought I trow it out there in case somebody needs something similar... And I think the capabilitie of this scope of very fast data transfer to a pc is great but doesnt seem to get mentioned a lot.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on June 13, 2018, 05:07:05 pm
Note: new User Manual v06 posted.
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/manual/rtb2000/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/manual/rtb2000/)

Minor changes from what I can tell. I found the following:
* Quick Access
* Auto scale in probe menu
* Zoom icon
* Features in segment table (average, envelop, overlay)
* FFT screen seems to have a slightly differen tlayout at the bottm (they changed the pic)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on June 13, 2018, 08:25:40 pm
Both this and the last version of the manual mention "Measurement Gate" on pg 335 the remote commands section (but not earlier in the main part). The commands don't seem to work; Rich - is this something planned to be ported over from the 3000 series in the future? Seems to be a useful enhancement.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on June 13, 2018, 11:02:52 pm
Hi,
I'm working on a design where I need to measure pulse width but I didn't see the ability in the measurements.
Thanks for the help,
Rob
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on June 14, 2018, 01:02:43 am
Hi Robaroni,

I've attached a screenshot of the measurement selection menu showing the pulse width measurements.

BR,
Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on June 14, 2018, 01:12:12 am
I really like that R&S actually updates manuals. Too many places just don't. I've run across several cases where I try to see how to do something in "the manual " and the software or firmware has changed so much that the manual has no resemblance to how things look or work anymore.

Thanks R&S!

Note: new User Manual v06 posted.
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/manual/rtb2000/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/manual/rtb2000/)

Minor changes from what I can tell. I found the following:
* Quick Access
* Auto scale in probe menu
* Zoom icon
* Features in segment table (average, envelop, overlay)
* FFT screen seems to have a slightly differen tlayout at the bottm (they changed the pic)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on June 16, 2018, 10:40:28 pm
Thanks Michael, I wasn't seeing the"vertical" and "horizontal" options!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on June 17, 2018, 07:19:07 am
Minor FW issue on the RTB2K:
The pattern generator Pattern menu includes "Audio - I2S" and "Audio - TDM" options. I am not sure these should be supported anyway, but picking either of those hangs the pattern generator menu (i.e. it cannot be open again until the instrument settings are reset).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: robotrovsky on June 19, 2018, 06:02:32 pm
I found another bug, when i was working with UART (RTB configured for 9 data bits and Terminal configured for 8 data bits + parity odd). The display sometimes doesnt clear correctly, resulting in showing the current AND the last waveform. I love the scope, but things like this are annoying, thinking of the price i paid. I use the current firmware V02.101. To reproduce the error hold down a key in the Terminal (e.g. Putty) resulting in continuous triggering, then press a second key on the keyboard. Maybe this error can be reproduced with other settings, but that was what i was working on:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on June 20, 2018, 04:48:19 pm
I found another bug, when i was working with UART (RTB configured for 9 data bits and Terminal configured for 8 data bits + parity odd). The display sometimes doesnt clear correctly, resulting in showing the current AND the last waveform. I love the scope, but things like this are annoying, thinking of the price i paid. I use the current firmware V02.101. To reproduce the error hold down a key in the Terminal (e.g. Putty) resulting in continuous triggering, then press a second key on the keyboard. Maybe this error can be reproduced with other settings, but that was what i was working on:
Hi robotrovsky - I tried to PM you back, but it says your inbox is full.  This doesn't appear to be a bug as the signal has different pulse widths and with an edge trigger you could see both of those appear on the display at the same time (our update rate is fast enough that we have to plot lots of waveforms at one time).  Do you still see this issue if you use an advanced trigger like?

•   trigger on start frame of uart
•   trigger on pulse width
•   use trigger hold off time

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Pinkus on June 20, 2018, 06:01:54 pm
Hi robotrovsky - I tried to PM you back, but it says your inbox is full. 
This is due to the (almost unknown) fact that new users can only receive 3 (or 5?) PMs, after this they will not be able to receive more PMs (sender are being told that the mailbox is full). New users need to write at least 5 regular postings before the mailbox is active again. I too was (and still are) not able to send messages to some users several times because of this anti spam 'feature'. What's cruel is, that the recipient won't know about it. This is a very unfortunate anti spam solution! Users should get a message (or PM) telling them this fact after they registered.
So Robotrovsky :you need to write some postings before you can receive PMs again!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on June 21, 2018, 12:10:08 am
Incidentally, I find it synonymous better, if in the forum asked technical on-topic questions should also be answered in his thread.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on June 21, 2018, 06:25:03 am
I found another bug, when i was working with UART (RTB configured for 9 data bits and Terminal configured for 8 data bits + parity odd). The display sometimes doesnt clear correctly, resulting in showing the current AND the last waveform. I love the scope, but things like this are annoying, thinking of the price i paid. I use the current firmware V02.101. To reproduce the error hold down a key in the Terminal (e.g. Putty) resulting in continuous triggering, then press a second key on the keyboard. Maybe this error can be reproduced with other settings, but that was what i was working on:
Hi robotrovsky - I tried to PM you back, but it says your inbox is full.  This doesn't appear to be a bug as the signal has different pulse widths and with an edge trigger you could see both of those appear on the display at the same time (our update rate is fast enough that we have to plot lots of waveforms at one time).  Do you still see this issue if you use an advanced trigger like?

•   trigger on start frame of uart
•   trigger on pulse width
•   use trigger hold off time

-Rich

LOL. It's a feature.. You should use complicated trigger that will ensure retrigger slowdown, so our poor display engine will have time only to paint waveforms once..

With do all respect, how is that not a bug? You cannot show ANYTHING except last trigger event. Display persistence have no place here.
What is this, an artsy fartsy graphic tablet or a scope. From a premium manufacturer. For a premium price.
No wait, but you can paint on screen with your fingers... That's important.

Rigol can do it, Siglent can do it. For price that is less than one software option on R/S. 
It's year and a half now since RTB2000 was released..
Get a grip. And that buggy, hipstery platform is used for 3000 and 4000. That cost a lots of money. Lots of money.
Bug fixes would really need to me a bit more aggressive (faster) at least until you weed out basic platform functions.

R&S was one of the legendary companies for many years. Good solid stuff. Expensive, but professional and worth every penny. Now, not so much, at least at this scope range.
Shame really...
I really hope you keep up with the reputation.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on June 21, 2018, 07:11:31 am
I found another bug, when i was working with UART (RTB configured for 9 data bits and Terminal configured for 8 data bits + parity odd). The display sometimes doesnt clear correctly, resulting in showing the current AND the last waveform. I love the scope, but things like this are annoying, thinking of the price i paid. I use the current firmware V02.101. To reproduce the error hold down a key in the Terminal (e.g. Putty) resulting in continuous triggering, then press a second key on the keyboard. Maybe this error can be reproduced with other settings, but that was what i was working on:
Hi robotrovsky - I tried to PM you back, but it says your inbox is full.  This doesn't appear to be a bug as the signal has different pulse widths and with an edge trigger you could see both of those appear on the display at the same time (our update rate is fast enough that we have to plot lots of waveforms at one time).  Do you still see this issue if you use an advanced trigger like?

•   trigger on start frame of uart
•   trigger on pulse width
•   use trigger hold off time

-Rich

LOL. It's a feature.. You should use complicated trigger that will ensure retrigger slowdown, so our poor display engine will have time only to paint waveforms once..

With do all respect, how is that not a bug? You cannot show ANYTHING except last trigger event. Display persistence have no place here.
What is this, an artsy fartsy graphic tablet or a scope. From a premium manufacturer. For a premium price.
No wait, but you can paint on screen with your fingers... That's important.

Rigol can do it, Siglent can do it. For price that is less than one software option on R/S. 
It's year and a half now since RTB2000 was released..
Get a grip. And that buggy, hipstery platform is used for 3000 and 4000. That cost a lots of money. Lots of money.
Bug fixes would really need to me a bit more aggressive (faster) at least until you weed out basic platform functions.

R&S was one of the legendary companies for many years. Good solid stuff. Expensive, but professional and worth every penny. Now, not so much, at least at this scope range.
Shame really...
I really hope you keep up with the reputation.

Say what you like but typically if you aren't sure how to trigger on your data you will get the same issue with any scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on June 21, 2018, 12:37:35 pm
From what I read in robotrovsky‘s post I think he is not single triggering, thus this behavior is fully expected if the waveform changes between triggers. You will see a similar thing on any scope. As is to expect when he presses two keys. Also why did he set the scope to 9 databits and the terminal to 8?

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on June 21, 2018, 03:31:21 pm
Doesn't have to be SINGLE capture.
On that image he has TWO consecutive trigger events overlapped on the screen.
Unless he has infinite persistence on, there is no way you should have those two waveforms simultaneously on screen.
Every new trigger even erases previous capture buffer.
So yes I apologize for oversight, if you set infinite persistence than you can get that screen.
In all other cases, all previous waveforms cannot stay on screen. Only the last one. And decode for that one.

If it were chinese scope all would be enraged how "chinese shit" is no good. When big guys do it, it's not a bug, or not their fault...

Of course it is a bug.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tv84 on June 21, 2018, 03:49:35 pm
When big guys do it, it's not a bug, or not their fault...

In that case, it's a standard!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on June 21, 2018, 06:08:00 pm
I think that is exactly what the scope should do. If there are multiple triggers within one frame-time of the screen it should show all the events within this time, no? I thought that is what intensity grading is based on. So if you have two qualified trigger events within 16ms (assuming 60Hz LCD refresh rate; I know this is simplified ) then I would like to see both, no? Or should one just be thrown away? Do i miss something?

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on June 21, 2018, 06:48:27 pm
I think that is exactly what the scope should do. If there are multiple triggers within one frame-time of the screen it should show all the events within this time, no? I thought that is what intensity grading is based on. So if you have two qualified trigger events within 16ms (assuming 60Hz LCD refresh rate; I know this is simplified ) then I would like to see both, no? Or should one just be thrown away? Do i miss something?
The problem is that with 2 signals on screen you have no clue what is being decoded so yes, that is a problem.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on June 21, 2018, 07:15:14 pm
I think that is exactly what the scope should do. If there are multiple triggers within one frame-time of the screen it should show all the events within this time, no? I thought that is what intensity grading is based on. So if you have two qualified trigger events within 16ms (assuming 60Hz LCD refresh rate; I know this is simplified ) then I would like to see both, no? Or should one just be thrown away? Do i miss something?
The problem is that with 2 signals on screen you have no clue what is being decoded so yes, that is a problem.

Seems like the answer then is triggering on what you want to see rather than randomly triggering on edges to see data or performing single shot captures rather than forcing trigger while it's sampling normally.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mtdoc on June 21, 2018, 07:47:16 pm
PEBKAC (or more accurately PEBOAK) error perhaps?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on June 21, 2018, 09:50:49 pm
I think that is exactly what the scope should do. If there are multiple triggers within one frame-time of the screen it should show all the events within this time, no? I thought that is what intensity grading is based on. So if you have two qualified trigger events within 16ms (assuming 60Hz LCD refresh rate; I know this is simplified ) then I would like to see both, no? Or should one just be thrown away? Do i miss something?

Michael


Seems like the answer then is triggering on what you want to see rather than randomly triggering on edges to see data or performing single shot captures rather than forcing trigger while it's sampling normally.

I understand now what are you saying, and no, it doesn't work that way. You have a trigger, then scope disables triggering, it scans full screen to the end, rearms trigger,  and waits for new trigger condition.
There cannot be several trigger events on same screen scan. Signal cannot be two different signals at the same time. You can have only one signal value at any given point in time.

If you have a fast scope and fast triggers and persistence on screen (simulating phosphorus), you will see multiple waveforms on  the same screen, but because of eye or screen persistence, not because those events happened at the same time. It only looks to you they did. They happened sequentially. With sometimes quite long pauses in between. Hence waveforms (screen, buffers) per second metrics on the scopes.

You cannot have another trigger while scanning on first trigger. It negates point of oscilloscope being oscilloscope, device that shows voltage variation in time domain.
And on digital scope you have last waveform that happened in the buffer to see.
If you want to capture number of separate captures and keep them all, you need to have a scope with segmented memory and switch it on.
But they will be kept separately, and you can look at them (and decode them) separately. On some scopes you can chose to overlap all recorded segments and see them at the same time, but that is not normal scope view, but a special analysis mode.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on June 21, 2018, 10:01:47 pm
There cannot be several trigger events on same screen scan.
:bullshit:
A DSO triggers on and displays the first trigger event/condition and any that might also fit on the display.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on June 21, 2018, 10:04:05 pm
I think that is exactly what the scope should do. If there are multiple triggers within one frame-time of the screen it should show all the events within this time, no? I thought that is what intensity grading is based on. So if you have two qualified trigger events within 16ms (assuming 60Hz LCD refresh rate; I know this is simplified ) then I would like to see both, no? Or should one just be thrown away? Do i miss something?

Michael


Seems like the answer then is triggering on what you want to see rather than randomly triggering on edges to see data or performing single shot captures rather than forcing trigger while it's sampling normally.

I understand now what are you saying, and no, it doesn't work that way. You have a trigger, then scope disables triggering, it scans full screen to the end, rearms trigger,  and waits for new trigger condition.
There cannot be several trigger events on same screen scan. Signal cannot be two different signals at the same time. You can have only one signal value at any given point in time.
That isn't true at all. A DSO which can do several thousands of waveforms/s has to stack multiple waveforms into one screen refresh cycle (usually 60Hz). This has been explained on this forum many many times already.
Normally this isn't a problem (and depending on the persistence setting wanted behaviour) but when using protocol decoding it is making it hard or even impossible to see which signal is being used for decoding.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on June 21, 2018, 10:13:40 pm
I think that is exactly what the scope should do. If there are multiple triggers within one frame-time of the screen it should show all the events within this time, no? I thought that is what intensity grading is based on. So if you have two qualified trigger events within 16ms (assuming 60Hz LCD refresh rate; I know this is simplified ) then I would like to see both, no? Or should one just be thrown away? Do i miss something?

Michael
No, it's operator error.
Rich explained what needs be done except I think he missed one thing, a falling edge or protocol trigger is best suited for protocols.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on June 21, 2018, 10:32:46 pm
That isn't true at all. A DSO which can do several thousands of waveforms/s has to stack multiple waveforms into one screen refresh cycle (usually 60Hz). This has been explained on this forum many many times already.
Normally this isn't a problem (and depending on the persistence setting wanted behaviour) but when using protocol decoding it is making it hard or even impossible to see which signal is being used for decoding.

You don't understand. I'm not talking how scope writes and combines those individual scans to a screen buffer. 
Also I'm not talking about fact that digital trigger DSO sample in circular buffer and start copying data in output buffer after trigger.... It's not really waiting for buffer, but rather not caring for sampled data until trigger happens.
All of those combined waveforms that go into screen buffer were combined from consecutive, single trigger events of fixed length... Scope cannot be retriggerable in the middle of the one post trigger sample buffer length.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on June 22, 2018, 01:29:25 am
I should clarify: with one screen time I don’t mean the time it takes the “beam” to go from left to right. I meant the refresh-rate of the display. So of course if your timebase is 10us and you have 10 horizontal divisions then the trigger will be disabled for at least 100us (if we assume no pre-trigger). But after those 100us it can trigger again. So if we refresh the display let’s say 10 times a second, we have 100ms of time to capture, in the best case, 1000 waveforms. And all of those can be shown (intensity graded) on the screen. If the waveform has two different pulsewidth (and you trigger on the rising edge you will see two falling edges on the screen. If you don’t use a more complex trigger, you can’t get around that (except maybe a long trigger hold-off).

P.S.: I know that the numbers may not be fully realistic, I took those just to make a point.

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: exe on June 22, 2018, 07:07:03 am
To me it looks more like a usability issue. E.g., what feature means to user, it useful, does it create confusion (or how intuitive the behavior), is it possible to change it, etc.

I mean, it's not (just) about technical justification.

PS to me it looks strange without intensity grade. Disclaimer: I'm not an owner of this scope. May be this is easy to fix in display setup, I don't know.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on June 22, 2018, 07:58:12 am
I should clarify: with one screen time I don’t mean the time it takes the “beam” to go from left to right. I meant the refresh-rate of the display. So of course if your timebase is 10us and you have 10 horizontal divisions then the trigger will be disabled for at least 100us (if we assume no pre-trigger). But after those 100us it can trigger again. So if we refresh the display let’s say 10 times a second, we have 100ms of time to capture, in the best case, 1000 waveforms. And all of those can be shown (intensity graded) on the screen. If the waveform has two different pulsewidth (and you trigger on the rising edge you will see two falling edges on the screen. If you don’t use a more complex trigger, you can’t get around that (except maybe a long trigger hold-off).

P.S.: I know that the numbers may not be fully realistic, I took those just to make a point.

Michael
That's exactly what Trigger holdoff is for. Or a longer timebase and zoom mode
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on June 22, 2018, 12:26:15 pm
That’s why I mentioned it ...  :D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on June 23, 2018, 01:10:52 am
I'm probably about to pull the trigger on either

a RTB2K-COM4, and have a good 300MHz scope with everything that I need (~3.8k EUR w/o VAT)
a RTB2K-74M and see if I can hack it (~1.8k EUR w/o VAT)
a MSOX2024A with a bunch of options, used, from keysight's ebay, for 2.2k$

Any comments or alternatives I haven't considered?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on June 23, 2018, 10:43:01 am
I'm probably about to pull the trigger on either

a RTB2K-COM4, and have a good 300MHz scope with everything that I need (~3.8k EUR w/o VAT)
a RTB2K-74M and see if I can hack it (~1.8k EUR w/o VAT)
a MSOX2024A with a bunch of options, used, from keysight's ebay, for 2.2k$

Any comments or alternatives I haven't considered?
GW Instek MSO2204E . Price wise between all of them and it does give you deep memory and protocol decoding. I wouldn't consider the MSOX2024A because the memory is too small.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on June 23, 2018, 01:03:18 pm
GW Instek MSO2204E . Price wise between all of them and it does give you deep memory and protocol decoding. I wouldn't consider the MSOX2024A because the memory is too small.

Agree  with Ntnico,  Keysight 2000 series are a joke for what they cost.
Especially used and with no or limited warranty for 2.2k$. I reality, they are worth more like 800€, and that mostly on brand recognition..
GW Instek MSO2204E outperforms it in every way.
Where do you plan to get RTB2K-COM4 from for 3.8k€ ? List price is 5.5k€ !!
If you can get it for that price I would either go with RTB2K-COM4 if you can afford it , or if you would want pay less I would go with GW Instek MSO2204E.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on June 23, 2018, 05:15:42 pm
Thanks for the pointers. Keysight hasn't been too attractive especially because of low memory and no warranty.

Education (student) discount from Datatec is ~30% for the -COM4, and I get the VAT back.

I'll look into the MSO2204E. Seems like a good option. -COM4 is still super attractive but also quite a bit steeper in price.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on June 30, 2018, 02:46:31 pm
Paid for my RTB2K-COM4. It should arrive sometimes next week.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on July 01, 2018, 04:31:39 am
But prepare yourself already.
With me, relatively quickly the desire came, to have to equip it with the RTB-PK1 option bundle, then with the RTB-B1 MSO option too.  :scared:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on July 01, 2018, 04:33:01 am
It's fully optioned, so that desire is cut off at the root.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on July 01, 2018, 04:41:19 am
Lucky guy   ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rhb on July 01, 2018, 10:53:40 pm
Thanks for the pointers. Keysight hasn't been too attractive especially because of low memory and no warranty.

Education (student) discount from Datatec is ~30% for the -COM4, and I get the VAT back.

I'll look into the MSO2204E. Seems like a good option. -COM4 is still super attractive but also quite a bit steeper in price.

Who is "Datatec"?   I didn't find anything sensible with google.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on July 01, 2018, 10:54:14 pm
http://datatec.de/, (http://datatec.de/,) a German test & measurement distributor
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: glowman on July 07, 2018, 05:24:30 am
Aside from the bugs pointed out from others I have found some myself.  I find this new version 2.101 to be so buggy.  I really hope that R&S development team will put more effort in the firmware.  The reason I bought a German branded scope is primarily for stability when it comes to firmware.  Bells and whistles is  just secondary to me (big touch screen, 10-bit, etc.)  Or else, it would not be so much different to China made scopes which is so much cheaper.  I understand that regardless what brand it is and the device is relatively new, there will be bugs to fix but, I'm expecting it to be harder to find on a brand like R&S.

Ok -on with the bug:
Under Pattern Gen, pattern, when you select Audio -I2S, the menu will exit. Then you can't get back into pattern gen menu again.  The output has a 9600hz square wave at P0.  Problem still remain even after restarting the scope.  To be able to get back in, just press preset.  Frankly I don't know what to expect with "Audio -I2S, Audio- TDM" but, not being able to get back in is obviously a bug.

Another bug is on the new zoom function.  When you press the zoom, the rectangle's vertical extremes are "sometimes" way up or way down to the point that there is nothing displayed below.  pushing and turning the knobs does not help.  Most of the time, the zoom works as it should and sometimes it's acting up.  As an analogy, it seems like while it's displaying new york, it's zooming in mexico.

Just today while checking the firmware page, the new firmware 2.101 is gone and what's there is the one released last Nov. 2017.  What happened?  Did I miss something?

FYI.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on July 08, 2018, 07:50:42 am

Just today while checking the firmware page, the new firmware 2.101 is gone and what's there is the one released last Nov. 2017.  What happened?  Did I miss something?



yes new firmware gone? V2.0.0 is the newest again.

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000/)

Hope it is nothing too serious but I can' t find any mentions on why it has been removed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Ghislain on July 08, 2018, 10:40:42 am
It is still available on the US site: https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2004/# (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2004/#)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on July 08, 2018, 10:51:21 am
It's not. Firmware version 02.000.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Ghislain on July 08, 2018, 12:45:17 pm
Well, it effectively was when I posted the message....I have seen this version coming and going for the last few days, not sure what is going on?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on July 09, 2018, 11:54:47 pm
There is obviously just some cache/CDN issue. If I reload a few times, it alternates between the two firmwares. Will contact them.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: liyanage on July 10, 2018, 05:15:59 am
I just noticed the same website issue. I was catching up on this thread and saw the 2.101 firmware announcement so I tried to download it.

The two problems I see:

- sometimes the file list doesn't even appear, but it does appear when I reload the page a few times
- once I do get the list, the 2.101 file is unavailable, the older one works.

See this screen video:

https://youtu.be/IUPwt1_GgVM (https://youtu.be/IUPwt1_GgVM)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on July 10, 2018, 04:39:04 pm
Hi Folks - I replied in the other thread, but didn't in this one.  It does appear to be some website issue - I've asked Munich to look in to it and hope to have it fixed ASAP.  Sorry for the trouble.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on July 11, 2018, 08:04:54 pm
 A small suggestion. SINGLE trigger work in NORM mode only. If it possible – scope automatically turn in to NORM mode if SINGLE trigger enabled.
 And a few funny pictures. Or how zoom work. It is about -110dB H2.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on July 11, 2018, 08:14:03 pm
Yeah, I'm not entirely sure what the point of auto-single is. It just triggers by itself after a brief moment, so you have to switch to Norm and then single-shot.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: liyanage on July 12, 2018, 06:03:30 am
Hi Folks - I replied in the other thread, but didn't in this one.  It does appear to be some website issue - I've asked Munich to look in to it and hope to have it fixed ASAP.  Sorry for the trouble.

-Rich

I wrote to Rhode & Schwarz customer support in Munich about this and just heard back:

Quote
Indeed, there have been a few changes.
Version 2.101 was removed from our web site.
If you have this version - please do not use it.
At the moment version 2.0 is current
(translated from their German reply)

I assume there was some issue?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on July 12, 2018, 02:08:06 pm
Yep - I just got a reply this morning too.  Looks like there was a small tweak to the self-alignment that was made, mainly for production.  There were also a few bug fixes slipped in:

Version Function
V02.121 Solved: Locked pattern generator menu when 'Audio - IS' or 'Audio - TDM' selected.
The Audio items were removed in the pattern generator menu.
V02.121 Solved: Front panel firmware update to version did not work on rare devices.
V02.121 Solved: Wrong spectrum section copied to reference waveform when trigger reference pointwas not set to center.
V02.121 Solved: Connection via USB-TMC: Read function 'viReadSTB' does not answer.

It should be on the web shortly, but in the meantime, here is a direct link you can use:

http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/www/FileTran.nsf/alias/RTB_2_121?OpenDocument (http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/www/FileTran.nsf/alias/RTB_2_121?OpenDocument)

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on July 12, 2018, 09:03:41 pm
Yeah, I'm not entirely sure what the point of auto-single is. It just triggers by itself after a brief moment, so you have to switch to Norm and then single-shot.

Yes, I am surprised by the possibility to do it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on July 12, 2018, 09:35:42 pm
Yeah, I'm not entirely sure what the point of auto-single is. It just triggers by itself after a brief moment, so you have to switch to Norm and then single-shot.

Yes, I am surprised by the possibility to do it.
Seems like an oversight to me. The RTM3000 goes into stop mode after you press the single button and a trigger occurs (either normal or auto mode).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: robotrovsky on July 18, 2018, 10:37:37 am
Hi Rich,

thank you for looking into this and reporting the issues from this forum to R&S. Sorry for the inconvenience with the inbox, i deleted the messages now.

Today i updated the firmware to 2.121 and checked if the bug still exists. This time i made it even more easy. I just use 1 channel and no protocol analyzer with normal trigger.

To reproduce: Connect a probe to COM-Port TX (PIN 3) and GND to PIN5 and open up putty with standard configuration for the COM-Port (9600,8,1,N). Now hold down the "A" key and press "Autoset" on the Scope. The scope shows (rtb_BUG_A.png)

Now while holding down "A" also press "G". If only "G" is triggered it shows (rtb_BUG_G.png), if it captures both it shows (rtb_BUG_AG_ok.png), but sometimes it shows (rtb_BUG_AG_bug.png) or (rtb_BUG_AG_bug2.png) showing the last and current triggered waveform.

I am a software guy, but when the scope shows me, that the signal has two potentials at the same time i don't think it is correct. Testing this will take you 5 minutes, maybe you can take the time and check it yourself.

BR
robotrovsky


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on July 18, 2018, 11:20:18 am
This is normal behaviour; not a bug. You'll have the same effect on any DSO with a reasonably high waveform update rate. The DSO will capture multiple waveforms within one screen update period and display all of them on top of eachother. If this is a problem then adjust the trigger hold-off.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: robotrovsky on July 18, 2018, 11:48:26 am
Hi nctnico,

Thank you for clearing this up. I was not aware of this. I saw, that the second waveform is drawn slightly more greyed out, but i wasn't expecting, that the same signal could be drawn twice (or more often) in one time correlation. Rather than a trigger hold-off i would wish for an option to just draw the one and only last triggered waveform or at least find any information on the screen how many waveforms have been drawn. But if you say, that this is normal behaviour, i will have to deal with it and use the trigger hold-off.

I am sorry for the confusion i caused.

BR
robotrovsky
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: glowman on July 19, 2018, 03:45:35 am
hi,

I have a suggestion for the problem in superimposed waveforms.  I usually use history mode if it happens.  What I do is set scope to norm then do the measurements.  As soon as you're done, release the probe, then press stop.  Superimposed waveform is frozen and may show at the moment.  Bring up history then play back.  This time, it only shows 1 waveform at a time.

I usually do this if waveform is varying in frequency and gets too confusing to interpret.  Hope it works for you.  I may be wrong so, any comments?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fgrir on July 23, 2018, 07:42:54 pm
Running into a bug on the RTB2004 where the scope locks up when you try to save to USB with multiple channels visible and the "Vis. Channels" options selected as the Source.  See attached image for an example.  The scope is locked up hard and requires power cycling to get anything to work again.

I've observed this with firmware versions 2.101 and 2.121, using three different USB sticks (all of which work fine using other waveform save options, including History Data which successfully saves multiple files for a single channel).

Funny thing is that I was going to post a request to add the "Vis Channels" source and "History Data" points options to the web-based Save/Load interface since that would be my first choice for pulling data from the scope.  But if it doesn't work...

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on July 23, 2018, 09:46:02 pm
I think I requested something similar for saving from the web interface a while back. Have not heard anything about it though - Rich, could you ask if the firmware team could consider adding it to the improvements list? If it's not already present in the higher end models then you may want to consider those too.

As for the bug, I replicated it on my unit running 2.101, though I think it worked ok on a previous firmware (not 100% sure, may have used different settings).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on August 08, 2018, 06:45:47 pm
 Hello Rich.
 I think something wrong here.
 Thanks.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on August 09, 2018, 05:12:16 pm
Hi MikeP - I recreated your setup exactly and didn't see the zoom issue.  Was there a special set of steps that you saw this? If you can post or PM me more details, I'd appreciate it!

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on August 10, 2018, 08:07:07 pm
 Hello Rich.

 This is small test. Problem exists in the two channels. Please see the pictures.  Unfortunately I forgot how make total reset (or this feature already disabled) so this test performed not in the initial conditions.

 Thanks.
 M.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on August 13, 2018, 09:36:58 am
 After the reset, everything is fine with zoom.
 I noticed a slight inconvenience. The voltage scale (in the zoom window) depends on the acquire mode.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: glowman on August 14, 2018, 02:31:02 am
It's a very similar bug I have reported before regarding the zoom (reply#2171).  This is at the time when the firmware is still 2.101.  I thought it was fixed already since I can't make it happen again.  Noticed that MikeP is already using the 2.121 so, hope they'll take note and fix it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on August 30, 2018, 10:06:43 am
Found a bug on RTM3004, presumably same on RTB.
When loading a setup, the annotations are not loaded (they are shown in the thumbnail).
My be classed as a mis-feature, but annotations can be as important as any other setup value - load setup should get you back to exactly where you were when saved.
 
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on August 30, 2018, 10:56:53 am
Another minor thing - when you are decoding a parallel bus, you can't turn off the display of the individual bus lines - the only thing you can do to clear some screen space is drag them to the edge of the screen.
A way to turn off display of logic signals used for bus decoding would be a useful addition. 16 logic signals in a zoomed display gets pretty crowded!
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on August 31, 2018, 09:04:26 am
Found a bug on RTM3004, presumably same on RTB.
When loading a setup, the annotations are not loaded (they are shown in the thumbnail).
My be classed as a mis-feature, but annotations can be as important as any other setup value - load setup should get you back to exactly where you were when saved.
 
 
This also applies to power-cycling - annotations should be preserved
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on August 31, 2018, 01:38:19 pm
The dynamic text scaling in decode can give some odd results sometimes - maybe better to decide on a size for the whole screen on each refresh ?
(Lower trace is clocked parallel bus mode)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on September 03, 2018, 04:37:54 pm
Found a bug on RTM3004, presumably same on RTB.
When loading a setup, the annotations are not loaded (they are shown in the thumbnail).
My be classed as a mis-feature, but annotations can be as important as any other setup value - load setup should get you back to exactly where you were when saved.
 
 
Good request - I'll submit it.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on September 03, 2018, 04:39:07 pm
Another minor thing - when you are decoding a parallel bus, you can't turn off the display of the individual bus lines - the only thing you can do to clear some screen space is drag them to the edge of the screen.
A way to turn off display of logic signals used for bus decoding would be a useful addition. 16 logic signals in a zoomed display gets pretty crowded!
You can actually do this today - see the attached pic.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on September 03, 2018, 04:39:46 pm
The dynamic text scaling in decode can give some odd results sometimes - maybe better to decide on a size for the whole screen on each refresh ?
(Lower trace is clocked parallel bus mode)
Definitely strange - can you send me your exact settings?  Thanks.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on September 03, 2018, 05:23:26 pm
It's pretty easy to replicate, just get it decoding something then adjust the sweep until it starts changing decoded bytes from vertical to horizontal display or vice-versa. At some point some of the decoded data will be shown in one orientation and some in another, depending on the space in each particular decode-hexagon thing. Still works, just looks messy. Probably would be visually better to default to the space-saving version until everything (on either the whole screen or at least within the same decoder-hexagon) can be shown in the same (wider) orientation then switch, rather than doing it byte-by-byte.

On another note I've been doing some I2C decoding and have seen issues with a device that runs with SCL low during idle periods. This is not really how things should be done (SCL should idle high), but is resulting in completely invalid decoding even during non-idle periods. It looks like a valid start condition is actually be generated (SCL goes back high before SDA does anything) and the devices on the bus seem to be happy with it, but the scope freaks out. I can probably get a screen grab of this if needed. This is on FW 2.101 btw, I'll update to the latest and check for the issue again but it's not mentioned in the change notes (though I do see there is an update to self-alignment, which I had trouble with on 2.101 - seemed to work on hot days but not on cold!).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 03, 2018, 05:28:01 pm
Another minor thing - when you are decoding a parallel bus, you can't turn off the display of the individual bus lines - the only thing you can do to clear some screen space is drag them to the edge of the screen.
A way to turn off display of logic signals used for bus decoding would be a useful addition. 16 logic signals in a zoomed display gets pretty crowded!
You can actually do this today - see the attached pic.

-Rich
OK but I'd argue  rather non-obvious.
I'd tend to assume that the "Logic" side-menu has everything, and the stuff at the bottom are shortcuts with only a subset of the options, as for most of the other things that appear on the bottom menu.

Having things in the bottom menu but not also the side is inconsistent UI-wise.
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 03, 2018, 05:35:39 pm
It's pretty easy to replicate, just get it decoding something then adjust the sweep until it starts changing decoded bytes from vertical to horizontal display or vice-versa. At some point some of the decoded data will be shown in one orientation and some in another, depending on the space in each particular decode-hexagon thing. Still works, just looks messy. Probably would be visually better to default to the space-saving version until everything (on either the whole screen or at least within the same decoder-hexagon) can be shown in the same (wider) orientation then switch, rather than doing it byte-by-byte.

Yes, it's when it's on the edge of two sizes.  e.g. set the pattern gen to UART at 1MBaud, set up serial decode and then adjust the fine timebase- at 9.8uS some bytes flicker between different formats.
It's more pronounced in parallel bus mode as transitions are happenning at less regular intervals 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fred27 on September 03, 2018, 05:52:34 pm
Another minor thing - when you are decoding a parallel bus, you can't turn off the display of the individual bus lines - the only thing you can do to clear some screen space is drag them to the edge of the screen.
A way to turn off display of logic signals used for bus decoding would be a useful addition. 16 logic signals in a zoomed display gets pretty crowded!
You can actually do this today - see the attached pic.

-Rich
OK but I'd argue rather non-obvious.
I actually got this trick from one of your own videos! You show that you can hide the digital channels and leave just the little "bit" trace above the serial decode.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 03, 2018, 06:40:08 pm
Another minor thing - when you are decoding a parallel bus, you can't turn off the display of the individual bus lines - the only thing you can do to clear some screen space is drag them to the edge of the screen.
A way to turn off display of logic signals used for bus decoding would be a useful addition. 16 logic signals in a zoomed display gets pretty crowded!
You can actually do this today - see the attached pic.

-Rich
OK but I'd argue rather non-obvious.
I actually got this trick from one of your own videos! You show that you can hide the digital channels and leave just the little "bit" trace above the serial decode.
Looking back at the video, I think I did this by pressing the "Logic" button, hower that switches display of all logic channels on and off, so no good for what I wanted last time, which was a bus display alongside other loguic channels.
The menu does not allow you to turn off a logic group that is being used for decode.

Pressing "logic" twice actually does something slightly inconsistent - it turns off the display of all logic channels, but only turns off the LED on the probe if the group is not being used for (any)  decode.

Incidentally looking back at the video reminded me of another issue that hasn't been fixed yet - that user labels are not shown in channel lists.



 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 07, 2018, 08:22:51 am
Just noticed that the waveform intensity setting also affects logic and decode channels - does this make any sense?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on September 10, 2018, 01:43:19 pm
Don't know if someone noticed a wiring problem with the logic probes. What is supposed to be right to left (D7-D0) is in actuality (D0-D7). Attached a few photo's to point out this wiring or labeling problem, pay attention to the green mark it flips over from right to left. QA should have caught this one in manufacturing.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on September 10, 2018, 02:10:15 pm
Don't know if someone noticed a wiring problem with the logic probes. What is supposed to be right to left (D7-D0) is in actuality (D0-D7). Attached a few photo's to point out this wiring or labeling problem, pay attention to the green mark it flips over from right to left. QA should have caught this one in manufacturing.
It doesn't really matter because you have to use the logic POD anyway. The actual connections on the connector may even be in a completely random order.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on September 10, 2018, 02:12:44 pm
True, just find it inconsistent and therefore a gotcha at first. No real problem of course.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PolarCrew on September 19, 2018, 02:34:41 pm
Running into a bug on the RTB2004 where the scope locks up when you try to save to USB with multiple channels visible and the "Vis. Channels" options selected as the Source.  See attached image for an example.  The scope is locked up hard and requires power cycling to get anything to work again.

I've observed this with firmware versions 2.101 and 2.121, using three different USB sticks (all of which work fine using other waveform save options, including History Data which successfully saves multiple files for a single channel).

Funny thing is that I was going to post a request to add the "Vis Channels" source and "History Data" points options to the web-based Save/Load interface since that would be my first choice for pulling data from the scope.  But if it doesn't work...

Hello,

I'm running 2.121 and i have 'lock up' when trying to save SPI bus table |O (same thing with internal or usb memory). It's not case with all captures, for example some small i2c/uart captures are working.

I have reset to factory defaults, secure erase and reloaded firmware but no help.

Edit: After failed saving of bustable i can see new zero size BUSXX.CSV in memory


Edit: 7.12.2018  :-+ With fw upgrade 2.202 it's working nice!! Thank you R&S
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on September 20, 2018, 08:06:23 pm
Hi Polarcrew - this is a known issue and is being worked.  Sorry for the inconvenience.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: eetechTom on October 03, 2018, 01:51:56 pm
We purchased 20 R&S RTB2000 series scopes at the university I work at. I have found that the web interface will not work with Chrome on our Windows 10 machines. It does however work with Firefox and Edge. Has anyone else had this problem?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on October 03, 2018, 02:10:29 pm
Works fine for me on Chrome/Win 10.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skench on October 03, 2018, 02:53:32 pm
Also works fine with Chrome on Ubuntu 18.04
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on October 03, 2018, 03:16:39 pm
Works with everything I've tried (all reasonably modern browsers), including Chrome/Win10
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: malagas_on_fire on October 03, 2018, 09:16:27 pm
One of these days they make a scope wtihout knobs or buttons... an entire touch screen  :-DD

Maybe the transition is starting ....

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-2ghz-touchscreen-scope-from-tek-june-6th/msg1212386/#msg1212386 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-2ghz-touchscreen-scope-from-tek-june-6th/msg1212386/#msg1212386)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 03, 2018, 09:26:25 pm
One of these days they make a scope wtihout knobs or buttons... an entire touch screen  :-DD
These already exist: the MicSig TO1000 series. No knobs at all except an on/off button.

If the UI is designed for touch like on the RTB2000 and the RTM3000 then it works very well. I have an RTM3004 on my bench and the touch screen works like a charm. I'm only using the rotating knobs for horizontal and vertical positioning.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on October 04, 2018, 12:35:21 pm
We purchased 20 R&S RTB2000 series scopes at the university I work at. I have found that the web interface will not work with Chrome on our Windows 10 machines. It does however work with Firefox and Edge. Has anyone else had this problem?
Hi eetechTom - like others have said, W10 and Chrome works well for me.  Having said that, please call our technical support team to see if they can help you:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/service-support/customer-support/customer_support_107711.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/service-support/customer-support/customer_support_107711.html)

That link will give you the right place to call based on your country.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: eetechTom on October 04, 2018, 02:01:32 pm
Thanks to all who relplied.

We did call customer support, but they couldn't solve the issue.
Sounds like it's an issue caused by the configuration we use here on our PC's. IE: it's our fault.

I didn't mention that we are using an ethernet/usb adapter because we are unable to do a direct ethernet connection here.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on October 06, 2018, 03:28:04 am
Quick question on the serial decode bus table.
It seems that the protocol decode and the bus table works on what is displayed (albeit at the full sampling rate). The only odd thing is that there seems to be ~20% extra being decoded to the left and right of the screen. Is this expected? Is this settable somewhere?
It is somewhat annoying as aligning the horizontal position to start the decode exactly at the trigger is completely blind (one has to move the trigger off-screen about 20% to the left).

On the screen, there is even a small serial diamond on the top left indicating that there is more stuff on the left.
In the example attached, the screen goes from -2ms > 22ms, but the decode seems to be -7ms > 26ms.
It seems that this does not happen at all horizontal settings. For instance, at 20ms/ (41.7Msa/s), there is no extra. At most other settings I tried, there is.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 06, 2018, 08:55:00 am
AFAIK the entire memory is decoded (which is what you want. Trust me!). Depending on your memory depth setting and samplerate there can be a lot of decoded data outside the screen. All in all it is not really avoidable to have decoded data off-screen as there will also be a part of the trace which isn't shown. You could use the fine time/div control to squeeze all the data and traces on screen but then the decoder information may not be readable.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: malagas_on_fire on October 06, 2018, 01:27:35 pm
One of these days they make a scope wtihout knobs or buttons... an entire touch screen  :-DD
These already exist: the MicSig TO1000 series. No knobs at all except an on/off button.

If the UI is designed for touch like on the RTB2000 and the RTM3000 then it works very well. I have an RTM3004 on my bench and the touch screen works like a charm. I'm only using the rotating knobs for horizontal and vertical positioning.

Yeah i was not aware of that model of micsig. I only knew the portable ones with rubber buttons. The transition might go to the bench ones but it would have some robust screen layer of plexiglas / lexan.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on October 06, 2018, 09:42:24 pm
AFAIK the entire memory is decoded (which is what you want. Trust me!). Depending on your memory depth setting and samplerate there can be a lot of decoded data outside the screen. All in all it is not really avoidable to have decoded data off-screen as there will also be a part of the trace which isn't shown. You could use the fine time/div control to squeeze all the data and traces on screen but then the decoder information may not be readable.

It all makes sense, thanks! I have understood my scope a bit more today.

I set out to figure out how much is off-screen. For example, at 10Msa (max) record length:
* At 20ms/div, the scope picks 41.7Msa/s (2.5GSa/s / 60), so the screen shows 41.7MSa/s * 12 * 20ms = 10MSa - the screen shows 100% of the memory
* At 21ms/div, the scope picks 31.2MSa/s (2.5Gsa/s / 80), so the screen shows 31.2MSa/s * 12 * 21ms = 7.9MSa - the screen shows 79% of the memory

The dividers from 2.5GSa/s seem to be: 1, 2, 4, 8, 10, 16, 20, 40, 60, 80, 100, 120, 140... Over the lower samples rates, the screen is 80-100% of the buffer. At higher sample rates with dividers in powers of 2, the variation is higher going 50-100%.

This clearly explains the behavior in my earlier post.

Having tried a few avenues, it would seem that the best way to keep all data on screen and enable precise positioning of the start of decode vs. the trigger is to set the "record length" in the History menu to samplerate * timerperdiv * 12. That seems to work well enough.

I wonder if there is a more direct way, e.g. ask the decode to start at the trigger or have a command to move the trigger to the start of the data (not the screen) or be able to "zoom out" to be able to see the extra off-screen info (zoom only zooms in).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 07, 2018, 08:27:01 am
In stop mode you can use the horizontal position knob to scroll left/right and make the off-screen signal visible.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Cthulhoid on October 13, 2018, 02:42:41 am
I saw the new promotions and I'm a bit confused.

The fully-optioned package (RTB2K-COM4) costs $6185. Straightforward and reassuringly expensive.

That SKU appears to be identical to the 4ch 300Mhz MSO package (RTB2K-304MP35) at $4760 plus the application bundle (RTB-PK1) at $1260. Breaking up the purchase this way results in a total cost of $6020, or a $165 savings; at the moment, PK1 is half-price, so the total is $5390, saving $795 off the COM4 price.

Am I missing something here?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: SteveRosenlund on October 24, 2018, 11:19:01 pm
Have any of you found or used an anti-reflective screen protector on the shiny RTB2K screen?  If so, where did you get it?  I'm searching Amazon now and found one that is larger and i could just trim it down.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on October 24, 2018, 11:39:31 pm
I don't feel like I need one.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: markb82 on October 25, 2018, 01:48:01 am
Anyone still have the 2.000 firmware file (RTB200x_Firmware_V02.000.zip) - seems like I lost it from my computer and I'd like to revert.

Thanks.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RGK on October 25, 2018, 03:01:39 am
Anyone still have the 2.000 firmware file (RTB200x_Firmware_V02.000.zip) - seems like I lost it from my computer and I'd like to revert.

Thanks.

Send me a pm with your email address....

BK
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 25, 2018, 04:17:31 am
Have any of you found or used an anti-reflective screen protector on the shiny RTB2K screen?  If so, where did you get it?  I'm searching Amazon now and found one that is larger and i could just trim it down.  Thoughts?
I found one that works well just searching antireflective screen protector, but couldn't find tbe right size so had to cut down.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RGK on October 25, 2018, 04:27:05 am
Have any of you found or used an anti-reflective screen protector on the shiny RTB2K screen?  If so, where did you get it?  I'm searching Amazon now and found one that is larger and i could just trim it down.  Thoughts?
I found one that works well just searching antireflective screen protector, but couldn't find tbe right size so had to cut down.

Someone here previously recommended this product:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01NAFNWVT/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_10?smid=A2C3SMXXIDC93V&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01NAFNWVT/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_10?smid=A2C3SMXXIDC93V&psc=1)

BK
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: SteveRosenlund on October 25, 2018, 10:20:15 am
Awesome!  Thanks. I just ordered it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on October 25, 2018, 05:31:46 pm
Looks like everyone has found their answers (2.00 FW and screen protector - sorry I was slow to help).  On a positive note, I can confirm the next firmware is in final manufacturing test and should release the week of 11/5.  Stay tuned!

-Rich 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on October 26, 2018, 10:35:03 pm
Looks like everyone has found their answers (2.00 FW and screen protector - sorry I was slow to help).  On a positive note, I can confirm the next firmware is in final manufacturing test and should release the week of 11/5.  Stay tuned!

-Rich

I hope I'm not disappointed after all the hype! Haha.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: SteveRosenlund on October 29, 2018, 12:08:38 am
FYI with those screen protectors, they need to be cut down to the proper measurements, but once they are cut they work great. There are a couple holes in the screen protector for camera and something else that I cut off.
The proper measurements are: 8 3/4” x 5 1/2” then round off the corners. It really cuts the glare completely out and doesn’t leave fingerprints. Sure the screen looks a tad better without the anti-glare protector, but the drawbacks aren’t worth it to me.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on October 29, 2018, 07:34:00 am
I tested one and agree with the above post, but in my situation there wasn't much glare so ended up leaving it off.

If you want the perfect fit and don't care about the calibration void sticker then you could also open the scope and fit it under the bezel - would look like a bought one as long as you manage to avoid dust or air bubbles being trapped.

Finally I think there are places which will custom cut protectors, but you'll obviously pay a premium.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on October 30, 2018, 12:20:46 am
I found the glare level unacceptable.

I ended up with this screen:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B015IKUNL2/

Needs to be cut down to size. For example with a trimmer:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0038F1A0S/

And if you insist on having perfect corners:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0076FJ7SS/

I really like the result. Looks quite professional. It takes determination to put it in without bubbles or dust, but it is totally possible (even without removing the frame).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on October 30, 2018, 04:48:07 pm
Looks like everyone has found their answers (2.00 FW and screen protector - sorry I was slow to help).  On a positive note, I can confirm the next firmware is in final manufacturing test and should release the week of 11/5.  Stay tuned!

-Rich

I hope I'm not disappointed after all the hype! Haha.
Ha!  I hope you aren't either.  In addition to the normal bug fixes, here are some of the bigger additions for 2.201:

-Math equations increase to five, and number of operators increased to 15 including differentiation and integration.  Math on math is possible (some minor limitations)
-New 'Cut Waveform" feature for Option B6 (function generator) allows the user to select a portion of a captured waveform to load in to the arbitrary setup
-Burst feature for B6 allows user to specify a fixed number of cycles.
-Oscilloscope simultaneously displays cursor results with measurement statistics
-New capability for user to independently set offset and position values.  User can assign vertical position knob now to control either
-Enhanced FFT usability

All of the above are free upgrades (the B6 enhancements clearly assume you have B6 installed).

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on October 30, 2018, 06:08:16 pm
Looks like everyone has found their answers (2.00 FW and screen protector - sorry I was slow to help).  On a positive note, I can confirm the next firmware is in final manufacturing test and should release the week of 11/5.  Stay tuned!

-Rich

I hope I'm not disappointed after all the hype! Haha.
Ha!  I hope you aren't either.  In addition to the normal bug fixes, here are some of the bigger additions for 2.201:

-Math equations increase to five, and number of operators increased to 15 including differentiation and integration.  Math on math is possible (some minor limitations)
-New 'Cut Waveform" feature for Option B6 (function generator) allows the user to select a portion of a captured waveform to load in to the arbitrary setup
-Burst feature for B6 allows user to specify a fixed number of cycles.
-Oscilloscope simultaneously displays cursor results with measurement statistics
-New capability for user to independently set offset and position values.  User can assign vertical position knob now to control either
-Enhanced FFT usability

All of the above are free upgrades (the B6 enhancements clearly assume you have B6 installed).

-Rich

Fixing the math "problem" makes me happy.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on October 31, 2018, 11:21:09 am
Sounds great, thanks for listening to user feedback. I look forward to the release!

Regarding math on math, does this include FFT on math (I recall that this is not currently possible, though I'm not infront of it right now so may be mistaken)?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on October 31, 2018, 05:24:48 pm
Sounds great, thanks for listening to user feedback. I look forward to the release!

Regarding math on math, does this include FFT on math (I recall that this is not currently possible, though I'm not infront of it right now so may be mistaken)?
I haven't had a chance to play with it yet, but given we support that on the 3000/4000, I'm going to say it is highly likely.  But I won't know until I get the FW to use.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: SteveRosenlund on November 06, 2018, 06:27:11 pm
I gotta say...I really like this scope. Coming from a Rigol to the R&S it’s eye opening all the capabilities this thing has.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on November 13, 2018, 01:38:51 pm
Hi Rich,
Any update on the release data? Obviously it didn't make it out last week as planned.

On another note Dave has pointed out an oddity in the timebase - I've seen it too but hadn't noticed that it's only 1-2-4-8-2 (vs 1-2-5-1-2 etc) in a single part of the range:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/)
Any comments?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 13, 2018, 02:05:30 pm
 Just saw the new RTA2004 at Electronica. Appears identical to the RTM3004 apart from 100M memory. WTF is going on with their series names..? Unlessmayme this will replace the RTM, but they were also.showing that.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: casinada on November 13, 2018, 02:23:22 pm
RTA4000 series ? :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 13, 2018, 03:40:19 pm
RTA4000 series ? :-//
Sorry yes. Brain getting fuzzed by too many freebie gunmy bears
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: exe on November 13, 2018, 03:51:23 pm
I propose RTFM series :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on November 13, 2018, 03:56:14 pm
RTA4000 series ? :-//
Sorry yes. Brain getting fuzzed by too many freebie gunmy bears
AFAIK the RTA4000 series has been around for a while. I think this runs on a x86 processor using Windows to have more processing grunt for analytical and math tasks.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 13, 2018, 04:15:50 pm
It was definitely identical to RTM3004 in all noticeable respects, played with for 5 mins, only memory was different.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on November 13, 2018, 04:34:09 pm
It was definitely identical to RTM3004 in all noticeable respects, played with for 5 mins, only memory was different.
I checked the datasheet and you are right. I probably was thinking about the RTO2000.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 13, 2018, 05:00:08 pm
Hi Rich,
Any update on the release data? Obviously it didn't make it out last week as planned.

On another note Dave has pointed out an oddity in the timebase - I've seen it too but hadn't noticed that it's only 1-2-4-8-2 (vs 1-2-5-1-2 etc) in a single part of the range:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/)
Any comments?
Hi Hydron - not sure why the delay (perhaps they found an issue when it was released to manufacturing).  I've asked for the latest and will update. 

I've also asked wrt Dave's question.  I'll update ASAP.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 13, 2018, 05:06:26 pm
Just saw the new RTA2004 at Electronica. Appears identical to the RTM3004 apart from 100M memory. WTF is going on with their series names..? Unlessmayme this will replace the RTM, but they were also.showing that.
Hi Mike - it was released at the same time as the RTM3000.  Yes, I know the naming is less than ideal  |O (but at least we now have the latter part of the name correct - 2000/3000/4000 - hopefully we get all the way there on nomenclature in the future).

With respect to differences, there are a few important ones:

100M per channel, standard.
1G of history, standard.
Better timebase accuracy spec - important when working with super deep memory.
Better noise performance than even the 3000 (which is really good to begin with).

Other minor things:
Only available with 4ch models.
Starts at 200MHz.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: admiralmaggie on November 13, 2018, 09:32:13 pm
Hi Rich,
I use a RTB2004 as my daily scope and I really like it (minus the detents!  |O). Any insight as to why UART decode is limited to 3Mbaud? Looking forward to the new FW update BTW.

Cheers!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on November 14, 2018, 12:59:29 pm
I propose RTFM series :)

R&S need to open source the graphic file for the sticker, I sense an aftermarket label opportunity ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 15, 2018, 02:50:39 pm
Hi Rich,
I use a RTB2004 as my daily scope and I really like it (minus the detents!  |O). Any insight as to why UART decode is limited to 3Mbaud? Looking forward to the new FW update BTW.

Cheers!
Glad you like it (all things considered).  WRT to the 3Mbaud - pure guess on my part (I can investigate with R&D if you'd like), but it may be a limitation of the FPGA we use  :-// 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 15, 2018, 02:54:05 pm
Hi Rich,
Any update on the release data? Obviously it didn't make it out last week as planned.

On another note Dave has pointed out an oddity in the timebase - I've seen it too but hadn't noticed that it's only 1-2-4-8-2 (vs 1-2-5-1-2 etc) in a single part of the range:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/)
Any comments?
I'm still expecting it soon.  No exact time - has to go through manufacturing test which is taking longer than I expected. 

With respect to Dave's finding (and I'll update his thread too) - here's the response from R&D:

For this matter, the ratio between sampling rate and pixel per div are important. For 50 ns and 100 ns timebase, the result would non-integer numbers for the pixel per div, e.g. 0.63 for 50 ns at 1,25GSa/s. In principle this could be displayed, but it just would not look very good. For 40 ns and 80 ns the pixel per div are integers, so displaying the measurements looks better.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: admiralmaggie on November 15, 2018, 11:03:29 pm
Glad you like it (all things considered).  WRT to the 3Mbaud - pure guess on my part (I can investigate with R&D if you'd like), but it may be a limitation of the FPGA we use  :-// 
-Rich

No worries, I was just curious... Thanks!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 29, 2018, 02:46:44 pm
An annoyance I just found - only one text annotation  :wtf:
OK with unlimited numbers it would get hard to manage but a few more would be handy.

A related issue is that channel labels don't work very well as they are on the right-hand side of the screen, making them less obvious than if they were on the left.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rhb on November 30, 2018, 12:28:07 am
Hi Rich,
Any update on the release data? Obviously it didn't make it out last week as planned.

On another note Dave has pointed out an oddity in the timebase - I've seen it too but hadn't noticed that it's only 1-2-4-8-2 (vs 1-2-5-1-2 etc) in a single part of the range:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/)
Any comments?
I'm still expecting it soon.  No exact time - has to go through manufacturing test which is taking longer than I expected. 

With respect to Dave's finding (and I'll update his thread too) - here's the response from R&D:

For this matter, the ratio between sampling rate and pixel per div are important. For 50 ns and 100 ns timebase, the result would non-integer numbers for the pixel per div, e.g. 0.63 for 50 ns at 1,25GSa/s. In principle this could be displayed, but it just would not look very good. For 40 ns and 80 ns the pixel per div are integers, so displaying the measurements looks better.

-Rich

I ran into that problem 30 years ago writing a seismic trace display for a MicroVAX II using GKS.  Relative amplitude from trace to trace in seismic displays  is very important, so I had to make sure the user could not choose trace spacings that did not map the the screen properly.  Serious PITA.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 30, 2018, 09:24:41 am
While capturing images to show the issue highlighted in the "Timebase Quirk" video I found a couple of minor issues

1) 50MHz sinewave, timebase at 40ns/div. Copy to a reference waveform. the ref waveform gets a slightly different timebase setting (This does not happen on the RTM3004 at the same settings)

2) if you save a screenshot via the save/load button, it saves the screenshot before clearing the menu
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skYfIrE on November 30, 2018, 09:46:55 am
I share my experience with R&S RTB 2K scope choice in Europe :

I was divided between new RiGOL MSO5K scope and a R&S RTB 2K. About technical specs (bandwith, refresh rate, memory), RiGOL was better than R&S for the same price. I mean you have a 70MHz, 2.5Gs/s, 20MPts and 50K wfms R&S scope Vs a 100MHz, 8Gs/s, 200MPts and 500K wfms RiGOL scope but RiGOL after sales dept isn't there if you need a scope (e.g. your scope is out of order and you need to not keep without one) whereas R&S has a complete European After Sales Dept who loan you a scope during time when your scope is fixing. That's a real diffrence between 2 worlds : would you like to get only a price or are you ready to pay something to get a good support to help you when you encounter a failure with your device.

As you've guessed, I've choosen the R&S solution and got a little extra from them. I've appreciated they've made a little gift :-+ Keep a good supplier is better than get the lowest price possible.

Even if R&S was my choice, the most important is to continue to get a lot of scopes suppliers to challenge themselves ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RobBarter on November 30, 2018, 11:23:28 am
skYfIrE - I'm coming around to the same view, although still deciding on Keysight or R&S (and 2000 vs 3000 series).  I think Rigol (which I have an 1102E I bought years ago) will need a year or two to polish up their product to move up to the next level.  I think the realities of this sector will force them to up their game in the software dept.  For the cost of an 1102E you can put up with a lot of quirks and even just bin it and buy another model but once you're in the £2.5k - £5k range I'd have 2nd thoughts!

Out of interest, which dealership did you go through for the R&S?  I'd like to support local dealers but Farnell UK (as much as you can call a global company 'local') aren't doing the PK1 offer on the RTM3004, only the RTB2000 series.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skYfIrE on November 30, 2018, 12:16:05 pm
Hi Rob,

I didn't use Farnell, Conrad or Radiospares for my order, it's a french distributor. The best tip I can recommend to you is to call R&S UK directly and ask to speak with their business dept. Ask to them to give you a best in class distributor for UK and if it's possible to get a little promo to decide you to choose R&S. If you would like to get the name of the french distributor, I'll send it to you by PM, but I think it's better to you to order in UK directly ;) Using this official R&S way, you'll have always a good link with the manufacturer.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on December 05, 2018, 02:55:39 am
While capturing images to show the issue highlighted in the "Timebase Quirk" video I found a couple of minor issues

1) 50MHz sinewave, timebase at 40ns/div. Copy to a reference waveform. the ref waveform gets a slightly different timebase setting (This does not happen on the RTM3004 at the same settings)

2) if you save a screenshot via the save/load button, it saves the screenshot before clearing the menu
Hi Mike - 1.  This was solved in the last firmware release from this summer.  The latest firmware release is on the web now so you can also just wait for it (although the link doesn't work just yet). 
2.  This is done on purpose for documentation. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on December 05, 2018, 03:08:00 am
Hi Everyone,

The new release is on the web, but the link doesn't work just yet.  Should be up shortly.  Sorry it has taken so long to get this out, but I think the new additions are worth it!

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2000/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2000/)

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 05, 2018, 08:46:40 am

2) if you save a screenshot via the save/load button, it saves the screenshot before clearing the menu

2.  This is done on purpose for documentation. 

-Rich
Huh? Documenting what? The screenshot function itself...? making that function essentially useless  :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: casinada on December 05, 2018, 04:03:15 pm
The link doesn't work yet......... :-//
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on December 05, 2018, 04:56:47 pm

2) if you save a screenshot via the save/load button, it saves the screenshot before clearing the menu

2.  This is done on purpose for documentation. 

-Rich
Huh? Documenting what? The screenshot function itself...? making that function essentially useless  :-//
I see your point, but we have a number of customers who use the RTB2000 in education where they write lab manuals, etc and want the menu to show.  So it's sort of a catch22.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on December 05, 2018, 04:59:11 pm
I feel like there's some miscommunication going on. My RTB is unplugged right now but do you mean the screenshot menu showing up in the screenshot?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 05, 2018, 05:09:17 pm

2) if you save a screenshot via the save/load button, it saves the screenshot before clearing the menu

2.  This is done on purpose for documentation. 

-Rich
Huh? Documenting what? The screenshot function itself...? making that function essentially useless  :-//
I see your point, but we have a number of customers who use the RTB2000 in education where they write lab manuals, etc and want the menu to show.  So it's sort of a catch22.

-Rich

So you make the functionality useless so that people can document the useless function...?
You can document the screenshot menu by pressing the dedicated screenshot button when the menu is open.
Quote

I feel like there's some miscommunication going on. My RTB is unplugged right now but do you mean the screenshot menu showing up in the screenshot?


Yes.

You can of course achieve the same thing using the dedicated button ( as long as you don't want to change the filename ) so it's a minor issue, just a bit silly...

Attatched pic shows the file saved when you press "save" in the screenshot dialogue. A bit like a camera taking a pic if your finger on the shutter....
(tested on RTM, I assume RTB is same)


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on December 05, 2018, 05:25:02 pm
IMHO the file selection diaglog should dissapear before saving the file. OTOH there is a dedicated button for taking screenshots.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 05, 2018, 05:29:54 pm
IMHO the file selection diaglog should dissapear before saving the file.
Of course
Quote
OTOH there is a dedicated button for taking screenshots.
True, however if, for example, you wanted to enter meaningful filenames before saving each screenshot, the screenshot menu is effectively useless.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on December 05, 2018, 06:22:15 pm
IMHO the file selection diaglog should dissapear before saving the file.
Of course
Quote
OTOH there is a dedicated button for taking screenshots.
True, however if, for example, you wanted to enter meaningful filenames before saving each screenshot, the screenshot menu is effectively useless.
Agreed, especially given the ease of input of filenames with an onscreen keyboard vs a rotary encoder. If educational users need it for their classroom manuals then please supply a few examples of this menu for them to include and make it usable again for the rest of us (the vast majority of users).
Link is still 404 BTW!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 05, 2018, 06:37:47 pm
Agreed, especially given the ease of input of filenames with an onscreen keyboard vs a rotary encoder. If educational users need it for their classroom manuals then please supply a few examples of this menu for them to include and make it usable again for the rest of us (the vast majority of users).
They don't even need to do that -  just need to press the dedicated snapshot button while the menu is open
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on December 05, 2018, 06:49:49 pm
Link is still 404 BTW!

This one? Worked fine for me yesterday and it still does:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=588922;image)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 05, 2018, 06:55:34 pm
Link is still 404 BTW!

This one? Worked fine for me yesterday and it still does:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=588922;image)
page is there but files are not
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on December 05, 2018, 07:04:58 pm
page is there but files are not


Ah yes, my bad  :palm:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: edavid on December 05, 2018, 08:55:59 pm
I see your point, but we have a number of customers who use the RTB2000 in education where they write lab manuals, etc and want the menu to show.  So it's sort of a catch22.
-Rich
It's not a Catch-22, it's another option that should be added to the menu.  Then all sensible people could turn it off.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on December 06, 2018, 01:25:10 am
After about a day... what is the point in updating the links but not putting the files up? I am going to get to work in a couple hours and thought I'd start with patch notes and updating. Maybe not.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RGK on December 06, 2018, 04:24:43 am
Download is now available.  Go get 'em boys!

BK
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on December 06, 2018, 07:24:00 am
  I think it will be interesting to potential users. Burst, square and abs. value as example... Math menu also.

  Many thanks to the manufacturer!
  Waiting for the bode-plot function.  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on December 06, 2018, 09:07:03 am
I must say the release notes undersell the maths changes a bit! Will pass judgement once I have a proper play, but looks like a great start.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on December 06, 2018, 09:31:17 am
One change I'm not crazy about, but I'll get used to, is the smaller channel bars which are smaller still when off. Of course all on they're the same size(4ch, logic, math) but for now definitely feels weird. Also mildly disappointed the vertical zoom bug carried over but overall a really nice update.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PolarCrew on December 07, 2018, 12:21:11 pm
My RTB2004 serial bus .csv saving problems are gone with upgrade  :)  Thank you R&S :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Doug_T on December 12, 2018, 03:45:55 pm
Is anyone planning to create a video of the expanded RTB2004 math capabilities?  If possible, I would love to see more on it’s FFT capability as well!

Thanks in advance... :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on December 13, 2018, 07:01:35 am
The math update is very nice - it makes it very usable and versatile. It's heartwarming to see that R&S is actively improving on the product, for both bugs and features.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on December 13, 2018, 01:17:38 pm
Would someone please post a screenshot of the updated firmware showing an FFT and all available on-screen measurements, markers and cursors? There is reference to "Enhanced FFT Usability" in the v02.202 Release Notes but it is not clear what it really is. Thanks.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: genghisnico13 on December 13, 2018, 08:18:01 pm
Basically now the FFT works more like a spectrum analyzer, you no longer have control of the Horizontal "Timebase", and as you adjust span/start/stop frequency (or the Horizontal Knobs) the Timebase and Samplerate are adjusted accordingly to keep Nyquist happy, there are no new Measurements, at least that I can see, and no you can't use the FFT trace as a source for measurements.
Its different, I need to use it more to decide if I'm convinced, so far I like it.

Math works as expected, at least what I tested so far, unfortunately we don't have filters, I know its not a feature usually found in this price range, but I was hopeful.

Maybe I'm missing something, but why is the Single Shot not Disabling Auto Trigger Bug/(Feature?) still a thing?

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ci11 on December 13, 2018, 08:28:12 pm
Basically now the FFT works more like a spectrum analyzer, you no longer have control of the Horizontal "Timebase", and as you adjust span/start/stop frequency (or the Horizontal Knobs) the Timebase and Samplerate are adjusted accordingly to keep Nyquist happy, there are no new Measurements, at least that I can see, and no you can't use the FFT trace as a source for measurements.
Its different, I need to use it more to decide if I'm convinced, so far I like it.

Math works as expected, at least what I tested so far, unfortunately we don't have filters, I know its not a feature usually found in this price range, but I was hopeful.

Maybe I'm missing something, but why is the Single Shot not Disabling Auto Trigger Bug/(Feature?) still a thing?

Thanks genghisnico13 - this is exactly what I wanted to see.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fred27 on December 13, 2018, 08:52:10 pm
I'm hoping the FFT improvements come across to the RTM3000 too. Setting the range is one thing I found a bit clunky and buggy.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: santiall on December 14, 2018, 12:56:16 pm
yeah, the new math and FFT functionality are great. The FFT is as explained above more like an spectrum analyser where you adjust the freq limits and/or centre freq and it adjusts the timebase automatically to suit those parameters. Much better than before.

on the other hand I think there is something weird with the Ref waveforms. When copying a channel waveform to a reference it seems to overlap the new data into the old one instead of erasing the previous waveform, the new Ref is a mix of previous waveforms, even the FFT appears overlapped in the time domain. Perhaps it's me doing something wrong, I need to check that more in detail, but it seems to replace the waveform only when changing to a diffrent reference number (Ref2 instead of Ref1 for example) and saving a couple of times or the likes
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hansibull on January 10, 2019, 03:49:43 pm
Does anybody know if it's possible to scroll horisontally in the protocol decoding bus table?

This screenshot shows it quite clearly. I'm watching multiple datapackets on an RS485 bus. I'm looking at these 55-64 byte messages, but i'm not able to see the entire packet in the bus table, because it's too long + no horisontal scrolling AFAIK.

Is it possible to view the entire packet content in the bus table, or du I have to zoom into the waveform itself and look at the decoded data below?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on January 10, 2019, 03:51:27 pm
I might just save the output of the decoder to view it. Haven't tried but maybe you could grab it over USB?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on January 10, 2019, 05:18:57 pm
IIRC I could get all of the data by saving it to CSV on the RTM3004. I'd expect it will work the same on the RTB2004.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hansibull on January 11, 2019, 08:12:54 am
I might just save the output of the decoder to view it. Haven't tried but maybe you could grab it over USB?
IIRC I could get all of the data by saving it to CSV on the RTM3004. I'd expect it will work the same on the RTB2004.

I could export the output to CSV yes. So, no quick and easy way to view the entire frame in the bus table then?  :-\
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on January 11, 2019, 04:13:16 pm
I might just save the output of the decoder to view it. Haven't tried but maybe you could grab it over USB?
IIRC I could get all of the data by saving it to CSV on the RTM3004. I'd expect it will work the same on the RTB2004.

I could export the output to CSV yes. So, no quick and easy way to view the entire frame in the bus table then?  :-\

I'd argue that's quick and easy but if you disagree I don't know of a way to expand the bus table to view that much data per packet. Maybe find the R&S thread and ask Rich about it?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on January 16, 2019, 06:24:00 pm
User manual. Version 07.
https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/pdm/cl_manuals/user_manual/1333_1611_01/RTB_UserManual_en_07.pdf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on January 16, 2019, 07:58:50 pm
 And new option: RTB-K36 - Frequency Response Analysis (Bode Plot). About $540. No free candy.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Octane on January 16, 2019, 08:37:31 pm
Where did you find the price for that option?

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ebastler on January 16, 2019, 08:41:17 pm
Where did you find the price for that option?

https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB-K36/Options/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB-K36/Options/)
Free shipping! ???
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on January 16, 2019, 08:44:48 pm
All of a sudden it became the almost unlocked version for 2k usd.  :-//  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 17, 2019, 12:52:36 am
Hi Folks - the K36 option is pretty nice.  While it is a for charge option, it is actually a free upgrade for anyone who has purchased a PK1 (bundle package).  It is also part of PK1 moving forward.  Please PM me and I'll get you the instructions. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 17, 2019, 12:54:17 am
Does anybody know if it's possible to scroll horisontally in the protocol decoding bus table?

This screenshot shows it quite clearly. I'm watching multiple datapackets on an RS485 bus. I'm looking at these 55-64 byte messages, but i'm not able to see the entire packet in the bus table, because it's too long + no horisontal scrolling AFAIK.

Is it possible to view the entire packet content in the bus table, or du I have to zoom into the waveform itself and look at the decoded data below?
Hi hansibull - horizontal scrolling is not available today.  I've passed your feedback on to our R&D team for future enhancements.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: korlatos on January 17, 2019, 01:19:53 am
Hi Rich,

How about people that bought the RTB2K-COM4 package? Can we receive K36 as a free upgrade as well?

Thanks!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: simone.pignatti on January 17, 2019, 11:26:39 am
Hi Rich,

How about people that bought the RTB2K-COM4 package? Can we receive K36 as a free upgrade as well?

Thanks!
Hello COM2 , COM4 and PK1 owners are eligible for free K36 till July the 31st 2019 - however it seems it doesn't come just with FW upgrade but you have to contact your R&S sales reference instead. Maybe it will change but so far this is what we know.
Cheers.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mk_ on January 17, 2019, 11:39:55 am
Hi Folks - the K36 option is pretty nice.  While it is a for charge option, it is actually a free upgrade for anyone who has purchased a PK1 (bundle package).  It is also part of PK1 moving forward.  Please PM me and I'll get you the instructions. 

-Rich

I bought PK1 some weeks ago... So - your instructions are welcome.

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 17, 2019, 03:11:51 pm
Hi Everyone,

I think I've replied to everyone that sent me a PM.  The 30 second limit between replies is painful!  :-DD  Please hit me up again if you PM'd me and didn't get a reply.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 17, 2019, 03:31:00 pm
Hi Rich,

How about people that bought the RTB2K-COM4 package? Can we receive K36 as a free upgrade as well?

Thanks!
FYI - for those of you that have asked this similar question in the PMs, I can confirm that people who own RTx-COM2/COM4 will also receive the K36 as a free upgrade.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: korlatos on January 17, 2019, 05:49:43 pm
Thank you for clarifying! PM sent.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 17, 2019, 06:30:21 pm
Hi Folks - I've replied to a slew of PMs.  Please let me know if you didn't get a note back.  And please be patient as I imagine our customer support team is getting a little overwhelmed  ;D

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: casinada on January 17, 2019, 07:40:21 pm
The newest manual for the RTB2004 was posted on January 14
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/manual/rtb2000/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/manual/rtb2000/)
There are also Release notes posted on January 10
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2000/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2000/)

Now waiting for the new feature set........K36....... :)

Thank you Rich

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on January 18, 2019, 03:33:49 am
Rich,
is there a story behind the release of K36 in this firmware version? It doesn't appear in the original release notes for 02.202 (only in the ones reposted this week), it was not in any marketing collateral until this week and it doesn't appear in the list of "inactive" options on the scope.

It looks like it was in the firmware, but the decision to market it happened after the firmware release.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 18, 2019, 02:28:38 pm
Rich,
is there a story behind the release of K36 in this firmware version? It doesn't appear in the original release notes for 02.202 (only in the ones reposted this week), it was not in any marketing collateral until this week and it doesn't appear in the list of "inactive" options on the scope.

It looks like it was in the firmware, but the decision to market it happened after the firmware release.
Hi Laurent - I believe it wasn't ready in all the firmwares (including 3000/4000) so the decision was made to hold off until it was ready across the entire family. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 18, 2019, 02:30:46 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs replied to again.  There are a few people who seem to have settings that don't allow PMs in (I'm getting a message that says "User 'xyzxyzxyz' has blocked your personal message").  If you didn't get a reply from me, please check your settings and then resend the request.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: luzotug on January 18, 2019, 09:28:29 pm
Rich confirmed it and it's in the new datasheet (version 9 january 2019) : RTB-K36 included in the bundle RTB-PK1
https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_dat-sw_en_3607-4270-22_v0900.pdf (https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_dat-sw_en_3607-4270-22_v0900.pdf) (page 18)

Still, the new datasheet, like the previous one, doesn't show RTB-B6 in RTB-PK1.

There's also an R&S application note on bode plot :
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/fr/applications/fiche-d-application_56279-603776.html?change_c=true (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/fr/applications/fiche-d-application_56279-603776.html?change_c=true)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: luzotug on January 18, 2019, 09:49:15 pm
...
it was not in any marketing collateral until this week and it doesn't appear in the list of "inactive" options on the scope.
...

"Inactive option" only shows deactivated and expired license, I've received my RTB2004 + RTB-PK1 PROMO   :-+ and all options are blank, I have to go to the registering website before any of my PK1 options shows up.

AFAIK there's no way to get the exhaustive list of possible options on the scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on January 18, 2019, 09:54:57 pm
...
it was not in any marketing collateral until this week and it doesn't appear in the list of "inactive" options on the scope.
...

"Inactive option" only shows deactivated and expired license, I've received my RTB2004 + RTB-PK1 PROMO   :-+ and all options are blank, I have to go to the registering website before any of my PK1 options shows up.

AFAIK there's no way to get the exhaustive list of possible options on the scope.

Thanks, I was wondering about that. Since I have a COM4 scope, I never had a non-activated option and was wondering if they were listed somewhere. I am not sure if this is common practice. Other TE I have/had all show all available options, whether activated or not.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 18, 2019, 11:13:42 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs replied again. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on January 19, 2019, 12:50:06 am
Oh wow, what a pleasant surprise.

I bode-plotted on my RTB2004 a lot, but it required an elaborate setup with an external function generator (since I couldn't make the scope trigger on its internal one). On top of that, it only became really viable with the latest firmware's overhauled FFT, since that finally allowed me to view/adjust the actual window of the captured data to analyze in the FFT.

Still, it was time-consuming and error-prone, so I can't wait to try out that app instead. Sent you a PM.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Doug_T on January 19, 2019, 12:58:00 pm
The enhanced FFT features of the RTB2004 & the new option for Bode plots really needs a user review...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on January 19, 2019, 03:15:17 pm
The FFT is much the same but it's drastically easier to set up. The bode plot...  :-//

Has anybody got a code yet?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: dr.diesel on January 19, 2019, 03:19:43 pm
Has anybody got a code yet?

I sent in my request early on the 17th, they are having issues with the early bundled packages and no separate PK1 Application Bundle order number.  After 5 emails back and forth they've gone silent.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 19, 2019, 03:26:23 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs have been replied to. 

And this is very much a manual process - the request actually ends up going to a group in Munich to handle, so please be patient.  I know they are pretty overwhelmed and sometimes the first requests take a little figuring out before they can get it all going smoothly.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on January 19, 2019, 03:54:09 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs have been replied to. 

And this is very much a manual process - the request actually ends up going to a group in Munich to handle, so please be patient.  I know they are pretty overwhelmed and sometimes the first requests take a little figuring out before they can get it all going smoothly.

-Rich

I think we're just excited to try out the feature we just found out about. Reasonable waits feel like decades!  :scared:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mk_ on January 19, 2019, 04:10:21 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs have been replied to. 

And this is very much a manual process - the request actually ends up going to a group in Munich to handle, so please be patient.  I know they are pretty overwhelmed and sometimes the first requests take a little figuring out before they can get it all going smoothly.

-Rich

Thats a so called eevblog-DDOS... 

Well, R&S should know that this would happen when there is a thread called "new killerscope in town...." and you do some good support to the crowd... :-+

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on January 19, 2019, 06:05:07 pm
I too had the back and forth about the lack of a PK1 bundle, but have been told that eligibility will be confirmed on Monday (and that lookup of my device ID has indicated all options included in PK1), so I hope to have a positive answer and some new features shortly :)

I actually have another device for FRA measurements (with more functionality than the K36 option), but it would be nice to be able to check things quickly from my main scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 20, 2019, 05:21:23 pm
Hi Folks,

All PMs replied. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: stuartk on January 21, 2019, 02:03:27 am
Wireless mice now work since the firmware update.

Both the Logitech M325 and Logitech M705 work.

Neither worked before.

Thanks very much R&S
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on January 21, 2019, 03:14:08 pm
I just received a email  with the activation code for RTB-K36 option from Rodhe&Schwarz!
Thank you so much Rich, for you assistance!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 21, 2019, 08:57:55 pm
Hi Folks - All PMs replied. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on January 21, 2019, 09:02:55 pm
Also received mine with no back and forth. I did add numbers from the box though so maybe that made it easier or they've got it all figured out now.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on January 21, 2019, 09:33:08 pm
Also received mine with no back and forth. I did add numbers from the box though so maybe that made it easier or they've got it all figured out now.
When did you request the key? (I assume it is a COM4 bundle unit?) Still no word about mine (Monday being almost over), but as Rich said they are busy and I'm not in a rush so I'll give it a few days before chasing.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on January 21, 2019, 09:36:51 pm
I sent the request 2pm on thursday(california time). Yes, a COM4 unit. From the box I included R&S order number, purchase number and consignee po number just to be safe.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on January 21, 2019, 10:29:12 pm
Took me a minute to realize I had to go into gen settings to set offset(testing single rail amp and filter and was clipping under 0 giving bad gain readings) but it seems fine. Not sure if it's an issue but you only seem to get three amplitude points for the gen output but you can set frequency and amplitude for them. Runs well, you can see the input/outputs and the plot, it also has a record for all recorded measurement points.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on January 22, 2019, 09:15:22 am
Got my key today  :-+

Found this on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXBeII6IMs8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXBeII6IMs8)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on January 22, 2019, 10:44:16 am
Twisted some L-C Stuff together  ...  it works.   Thanks R&S.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on January 22, 2019, 01:50:04 pm
.... Not sure if it's an issue but you only seem to get three amplitude points for the gen output but you can set frequency and amplitude for them. ...

I can set the profil with up to 16 points with frequency and amplitude level each.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on January 22, 2019, 04:43:25 pm
.... Not sure if it's an issue but you only seem to get three amplitude points for the gen output but you can set frequency and amplitude for them. ...

I can set the profil with up to 16 points with frequency and amplitude level each.

I must have missed where you can add points then.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: simone.pignatti on January 22, 2019, 06:04:33 pm
.... Not sure if it's an issue but you only seem to get three amplitude points for the gen output but you can set frequency and amplitude for them. ...

I can set the profil with up to 16 points with frequency and amplitude level each.

I must have missed where you can add points then.
It is next to start and stop frequency
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on January 22, 2019, 06:09:13 pm
I'm wondering.. is there any math possible on the bode plot traces? It would be nice to calculate the real and imaginary impedances (and from there the RLC values of the device under test). The latter would turn the feature into an LF network analyser.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on January 22, 2019, 06:53:46 pm
.... Not sure if it's an issue but you only seem to get three amplitude points for the gen output but you can set frequency and amplitude for them. ...

I can set the profil with up to 16 points with frequency and amplitude level each.

I must have missed where you can add points then.
It is next to start and stop frequency

Ah, I'll have to look there too. I did find it in the main bode plot menu, I just overlooked it my first time through.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: casinada on January 22, 2019, 08:02:34 pm
Bode Plot is explained starting on page 144 of the user's manual (revision 7). Of course manuals are overrated  :) :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: emanresu on January 22, 2019, 11:18:03 pm
Hi Folks - All PMs replied. 

-Rich

Argh, I had the "except messages only from admins" switched on :palm:
Can you please respond again?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 22, 2019, 11:51:09 pm
Hi Folks - All PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on January 23, 2019, 09:05:37 am
Got my code yesterday, a quick play suggests the feature does what it should for the standard gain/phase stuff and is not too slow at it either. Even used it in anger checking the frequency response of a CT I wound recently.

It's still limited compared to a real low-freq FRA/network-analyser (i.e. no calibration, L/C/Z plots etc), but that's a limitation shared by all the other big-name scope based "bode-plot" tools, and I have other tools for when I need to do that. Definitely happy with the additional feature  :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on January 23, 2019, 11:32:53 pm
Thanks Rich, we're good to go.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RGK on January 24, 2019, 03:58:14 am
I'm all set for K36.  Thanks, Rich and R&S!

BK
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: glowman on January 24, 2019, 05:20:22 am
Got my key just recently!  This further justifies the cost of this killer scope.  Thanks Rich and R&S!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 24, 2019, 04:38:51 pm
Hi Folks - All PMs replied. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on January 24, 2019, 08:43:42 pm
 K36 is installed on one of the devices. Very good function.
 I tried to check the identity of the channels. 1-2 and 3-4 all is well. Using 2-3 and 3-2 (2-4 or 3-1) leads to some oddities.
 Thank you very much!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on January 24, 2019, 09:14:16 pm
It seems to get confused and can swap from say 0 phase to 180 or 0 to 360. I assume this can be fixed in software. I noticed this too but wasn't sure if it was just me.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: glowman on January 25, 2019, 09:59:00 am
Maybe it has something to do with ADC.  1&2 or 3&4 share one ADC each. Making the 2 ADC's to work together for this application just won't do.  Just guessing...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 25, 2019, 05:01:30 pm
K36 is installed on one of the devices. Very good function.
 I tried to check the identity of the channels. 1-2 and 3-4 all is well. Using 2-3 and 3-2 (2-4 or 3-1) leads to some oddities.
 Thank you very much!
Hi MikeP - just PM'd you.

Thanks,
Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on January 25, 2019, 09:31:13 pm
Also now have K36 installed, only took a couple working days to get, no issues.

Thanks Rich, R&S, that's a nice upgrade to get.

Joel
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 28, 2019, 02:15:28 pm
Hi Folks - sorry for the slow responses via PM - it was a very busy weekend.  All PMs should be answered now, please let me know if you didn't receive a reply.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on January 29, 2019, 07:14:40 pm
 A small update. The problem of channels 1/2-3/4 does not occur during normal use. Here is an example of a trivial power amplifier. The K36 works absolutely flawlessly.
 I think the function of K36 will be significantly changed for the better.

 PS I really miss the logarithmic scale in the FFT ...  :(
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: genghisnico13 on February 01, 2019, 01:55:05 am
I think I found a couple of bugs, when enabling HF Reject the trigger point is delayed by approx 2.1us (should be compensated automatically, I believe because other trigger filters are compensated) and if you switch the trigger source to a logic channel having HF Reject activated you cant trigger (edge) and you cant disable HF Reject until you switch back to an analog channel.

a feature request that I'm not sure how easy to implement it is (for not ideal shapes), but it would be nice if you could maybe show the -3dB BW in the bode function automatically (maybe using the QuickMeas button), not a big deal to find using cursors but could be nice.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: santiall on February 01, 2019, 02:49:48 am
  PS I really miss the logarithmic scale in the FFT ...  :(

big YES to this, a LIN / LOG scale switch would just be perfect.

when enabling HF Reject the trigger point is delayed by approx 2.1us (should be compensated automatically, I believe because other trigger filters are compensated) and if you switch the trigger source to a logic channel having HF Reject activated you cant trigger (edge) and you cant disable HF Reject until you switch back to an analog channel.
I've noticed this one too
Title: Where did the FW V 02.202 release notes go? Love the math addition!!!
Post by: agdr on February 01, 2019, 08:34:35 am
I've been popping back in every few months to see if the math-upgraded firmware was out yet.  Finally is!  Wow!!!!  Huge thanks to Rich for getting this one pushed through corporate.

But... where did the release notes for V 02.202 go?  In post 2277 the image there shows there *were* release notes at one time.  What I'm finding now on the R&S site is the firmware itself in the .zip, but no release notes anymore.  Rich - or anybody else - help?

Another huge wow on the K36 upgrade!  Between the upgraded math and now this K36, the RTB2004 has gone up a few notches in the scope world, IMHO. Matches the original thread title of a game changer now.  Was hard(er) for me to say that before when all it had was basic math functions. :P :)
Title: Re: Where did the FW V 02.202 release notes go? Love the math addition!!!
Post by: Kean on February 01, 2019, 08:42:12 am
But... where did the release notes for V 02.202 go?  In post 2277 the image there shows there *were* release notes at one time.  What I'm finding now on the R&S site is the firmware itself in the .zip, but no release notes anymore.  Rich - or anybody else - help?

Here is a copy (an updated one which mentions K36)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iylum08fw7gwmj1/RTB2000_Release_Notes_v02.202_v10.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/iylum08fw7gwmj1/RTB2000_Release_Notes_v02.202_v10.pdf?dl=0)
Title: Re: Where did the FW V 02.202 release notes go? Love the math addition!!!
Post by: agdr on February 01, 2019, 08:48:06 am
Here is a copy (an updated one which mentions K36)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iylum08fw7gwmj1/RTB2000_Release_Notes_v02.202_v10.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/iylum08fw7gwmj1/RTB2000_Release_Notes_v02.202_v10.pdf?dl=0)

Thank you!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on February 01, 2019, 10:05:02 am
The only thing I'm wishing for is some of the RTM's math capabilities (LPF, HPF) to make it into the RTB.

And maybe a demodulation function, but that's more of a corner case and I don't really expect it (and I could probably hack something together with the existing math)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: genghisnico13 on February 01, 2019, 02:22:11 pm
The only thing I'm wishing for is some of the RTM's math capabilities (LPF, HPF) to make it into the RTB.
Same here, that would be awesome.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on February 01, 2019, 02:39:30 pm
The only thing I'm wishing for is some of the RTM's math capabilities (LPF, HPF) to make it into the RTB.

Well, your wish was granted. Current math capabilities are "gift" from R&S because originally RTB2000 had very basic math. It was no better than Rigol DS1000Z.
Customers complained when they realized RTB2000 was seriously lacking when it came to math capabilities and asked if it could get some of 3000 series  math and here it is.
You can't expect parity with 3000 series.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on February 01, 2019, 02:39:56 pm
The only thing I'm wishing for is some of the RTM's math capabilities (LPF, HPF) to make it into the RTB.
I have not checked the latest RTM3000 firmware yet (too swamped with other stuff ATM) but in the previous version LPF and HPF are performed on decimated data -like any math operation-. This can screw up the filtering results.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on February 01, 2019, 06:56:22 pm
Does anybody know a similar or the same lug used for the ground of probe compensation port?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on February 02, 2019, 05:08:31 am
Hi Rich,
I use a RTB2004 as my daily scope and I really like it (minus the detents!  |O). Any insight as to why UART decode is limited to 3Mbaud? Looking forward to the new FW update BTW.

Cheers!
Glad you like it (all things considered).  WRT to the 3Mbaud - pure guess on my part (I can investigate with R&D if you'd like), but it may be a limitation of the FPGA we use  :-// 

-Rich


Rich - I've been reading back in the thread to catch up.  Did you ever hear back from R&D about this 3Mbaud issue?  Just curious.  Higher would be nice...   If the answer was posted & I've just missed it, please point me to the post #.  Thanks!

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on February 02, 2019, 05:21:41 am

....

And if you insist on having perfect corners:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0076FJ7SS/

....


Reading back in the thread - where has this been all my life (corner cutter for anti-glare screen film, etc)?  :)  I can think of so many things to use it on.  Just ordered one from Amazon.
Title: Re: Where did the FW V 02.202 release notes go? Love the math addition!!!
Post by: EEVblog on February 02, 2019, 07:17:49 am
But... where did the release notes for V 02.202 go?  In post 2277 the image there shows there *were* release notes at one time.  What I'm finding now on the R&S site is the firmware itself in the .zip, but no release notes anymore.  Rich - or anybody else - help?

Here is a copy (an updated one which mentions K36)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iylum08fw7gwmj1/RTB2000_Release_Notes_v02.202_v10.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/iylum08fw7gwmj1/RTB2000_Release_Notes_v02.202_v10.pdf?dl=0)

New Features of V02.202:
●New 'Cut Waveform' feature for Option RTB-B6 Function generator allows user to select a portion of captured oscilloscope waveformin the arbitrary setup.
●New burst feature for option RTB-B6 Function generator allows user to specify a fixed number of waveform cycles.
●Number of math equations increased to five, and number of operators increased including differentiation and integration. 
●Option RTB-K36: New Bode plot application allow the instrument to perform gain and phase testing.
●Oscilloscope simultaneously displays cursor results with measurement statistics.
●New capability for user to independently set offset and positon values. User can assign top vertical knobto control either position or offset.
●Enhanced FFT usability

Shame  the bode is optional
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on February 02, 2019, 07:28:05 am
And if you insist on having perfect corners:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0076FJ7SS/
Reading back in the thread - where has this been all my life (corner cutter for anti-glare screen film, etc)?  :)  I can think of so many things to use it on.  Just ordered one from Amazon.

Anyone got recommendation for good anti-glare film for scopes?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on February 02, 2019, 07:36:05 am
And if you insist on having perfect corners:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0076FJ7SS/
Reading back in the thread - where has this been all my life (corner cutter for anti-glare screen film, etc)?  :)  I can think of so many things to use it on.  Just ordered one from Amazon.

Anyone got recommendation for good anti-glare film for scopes?

The one I got (and does the job well):
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B015IKUNL2/

In general, the fire HD 10" ones are close to the right size and need just a bit of trimming.
Title: Re: Where did the FW V 02.202 release notes go? Love the math addition!!!
Post by: agdr on February 03, 2019, 04:06:34 am
Shame  the bode is optional

Agreed.  Seems to me, given the current non-discounted retail prices of the various RTB200X configurations without K36, R&S would be wise to authorize the sales agents to use K36 as a "deal sweetener" if needed when preparing RTB200X quotes. Something to throw in "free" if the customer is insisting on a 10% or so markdown to do the deal. 

Or, alternatively, if R&S would just have (often) recurring "sales" where the K36 was included with some RTB200X configurations for some period of time. 

Seems to me whatever R&S would loose in direct profit on the K36 itself would easily be made up - and exceeded - in simply (many) more RTB200X sales due to the "K36 bundle specials".  They could always add a restriction that the K36 special didn't apply to quantity sales (an entire school lab stocking up), etc.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on February 04, 2019, 09:48:22 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs replied.  I apologize to those that had to wait over the weekend.  Wasn't on my PC much!

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on February 05, 2019, 03:03:06 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on February 07, 2019, 01:47:05 pm
Hi Folks - All PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on February 08, 2019, 09:47:54 am
K36 activated!  Thanks Rich and R&S.  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on February 11, 2019, 03:47:21 am
Hi Folks - All PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AlexFerro on February 12, 2019, 03:00:01 am
I want to thank everyone here on the forum and elsewhere, but especially this forum, for the reviews, discussion, and information provided about the RTB2000 (and the other test equipment I have researched and bought over the years).
I can truthfully say that the launch promotion (as read about via the forum) significantly impacted my hobby by saving me time in tracking down very intermittent protocol faults and ruling out various causes (it turned out to be a corner case in my code), that would have been near impossible to find with my significantly older scopes and PC controlled logic analyzer as I left the scope on for a week with a carefully setup trigger condition. Prior to this experience, I never would have thought that it was worth having any MSO capability or protocol decodes in a scope and thus would not have purchased those capabilities at the future date I would have eventually purchased a modern scope.
To the general goal of a new product promotion being to get the product into the hands of evangelists, I will admit to not having influencing power over a large school or company lab, or a following on social media, but I now own an FPC1500 as well (as sadly for my wallet my interests take me to the 2.4GHz band ruling out most of the cheaper options), and with work being interested in upgrading our scope (a TDS2000B) to a newer scope, I have been advocating for a RTM3004, budget permitting, as we are familiar with my RTB2K from the few times I have brought it in to troubleshoot something our 60MHz scope doesn't do well (and of course all my personal use).
I'd also like to thank Rich for being a helpful company representative on the forum, R&S for retroactively including the Bode plot option in the bundle (and the promotion in the first place, if that wasn't clear above), and R&S support for very promptly activating the option for me.

And finally,today I somehow found a bug new to version 2.202. I managed to get the displayed trigger level to not actually line up with the waveform shown on the screen. I am not sure what I did to cause this, other than I was using the position offset, and I tried shifting the waveform on the screen later in the day and could not reproduce the issue. See the attached screen shot, it should be fairly clear that the trigger line does not line up with where the wave crosses 0 time and that the trigger voltage matches the point that the screen is displaying but clearly not where the hardware is.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on February 13, 2019, 05:52:57 pm
I want to thank everyone here on the forum and elsewhere, but especially this forum, for the reviews, discussion, and information provided about the RTB2000 (and the other test equipment I have researched and bought over the years).
I can truthfully say that the launch promotion (as read about via the forum) significantly impacted my hobby by saving me time in tracking down very intermittent protocol faults and ruling out various causes (it turned out to be a corner case in my code), that would have been near impossible to find with my significantly older scopes and PC controlled logic analyzer as I left the scope on for a week with a carefully setup trigger condition. Prior to this experience, I never would have thought that it was worth having any MSO capability or protocol decodes in a scope and thus would not have purchased those capabilities at the future date I would have eventually purchased a modern scope.
To the general goal of a new product promotion being to get the product into the hands of evangelists, I will admit to not having influencing power over a large school or company lab, or a following on social media, but I now own an FPC1500 as well (as sadly for my wallet my interests take me to the 2.4GHz band ruling out most of the cheaper options), and with work being interested in upgrading our scope (a TDS2000B) to a newer scope, I have been advocating for a RTM3004, budget permitting, as we are familiar with my RTB2K from the few times I have brought it in to troubleshoot something our 60MHz scope doesn't do well (and of course all my personal use).
I'd also like to thank Rich for being a helpful company representative on the forum, R&S for retroactively including the Bode plot option in the bundle (and the promotion in the first place, if that wasn't clear above), and R&S support for very promptly activating the option for me.

And finally,today I somehow found a bug new to version 2.202. I managed to get the displayed trigger level to not actually line up with the waveform shown on the screen. I am not sure what I did to cause this, other than I was using the position offset, and I tried shifting the waveform on the screen later in the day and could not reproduce the issue. See the attached screen shot, it should be fairly clear that the trigger line does not line up with where the wave crosses 0 time and that the trigger voltage matches the point that the screen is displaying but clearly not where the hardware is.
Thanks AlexFerro - appreciate the kind words.  For the bug, I'll submit this to our system, but you might also try running a self-alignment to see if it solves this as I haven't seen it on my units.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on February 13, 2019, 05:54:08 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs replied.  If you didn't receive one, it's because your inbox is full  :)

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: TheNewLab on February 13, 2019, 06:04:30 pm
Regarding anti-glare screens. I just put screen protectors on all of my screens -test instruments - smart phones, even gator glass tablets.

Works for me.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AlexFerro on February 13, 2019, 07:18:59 pm
Rich,
I just managed to reproduce it again.
Turns out that it was my fault after all. The trigger was set to AC coupled as I was running the Bode Plot application and it sets the trigger mode to AC coupled, as well as the input coupling to AC (which is indicated in the channel info bar at the bottom). And since I had not myself gone and changed the trigger settings I had not thought to check that feature. It is correctly indicated in pop out trigger menu. Not a Bug.

However, as a corollary to this, it would be nice to indicate the trigger coupling (and possibly the other settings) somewhere visible, maybe in the little box circled that shows 2.42V. Kinda like how the Channel info bar shows the probe scale (1:1 or otherwise),  Bw limiting, DC/AC, etc when you have those modes selected.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: riyadh144 on February 16, 2019, 05:25:43 am
I am in the market of a new scope and this seems like a great option, I know the answer to my question is probably out there but I have went through 20 pages here and the product pages on testequity and tequipment and I didn't find it.

Is the mixed signal a hardware option, if I bought the 300MHz upgraded option without the MSO option, and wanted to upgrade later would I be able to do that online?

Also is there any deals on the scope now or in the near future?

Anyway great scope and thanks for the amazing thread it was fun to read.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on February 16, 2019, 11:56:45 am
If you want to use the digital input you'll need to buy the MSO probe for the digital inputs. So yes, you have to buy hardware.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on February 16, 2019, 02:36:22 pm
The "RTB-B1 option" includes a license and  probes for the MSO, as far as I know. It makes no sense to buy a license key without probes and vice versa.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on February 16, 2019, 02:39:47 pm
The "RTB-B1 option" includes a license and  probes for the MSO, as far as I know. It makes no sense to buy a license key without probes and vice versa.
It would be nice to be able to buy the probes seperately. For example when they break or you want to leave a set of probes attached to a project (yes, that happens).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: gsocker on February 16, 2019, 03:32:32 pm

It would be nice to be able to buy the probes seperately. For example when they break or you want to leave a set of probes attached to a project (yes, that happens).

I think this would be RT-ZL03 for the RTB2000. Of course, they cost 495 USD per pod...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on February 16, 2019, 10:46:54 pm
Hi Folks - all our scopes have the ability to upgrade after the fact to an MSO.  Our 1000/2000/3000/4000 embedded scopes all require a license on the scope in addition to the probe set.  We put the comparators in the pods which is part of the reason they are more expensive, but I'm fairly certain the flying leads are available for separate purchase so you could leave a lower cost item attached to a DUT and just move the pods.  Let me know if anyone needs me to find that part number.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on February 16, 2019, 10:55:04 pm
Hi Folks - all our scopes have the ability to upgrade after the fact to an MSO.  Our 1000/2000/3000/4000 embedded scopes all require a license on the scope in addition to the probe set.  We put the comparators in the pods which is part of the reason they are more expensive, but I'm fairly certain the flying leads are available for separate purchase so you could leave a lower cost item attached to a DUT and just move the pods.  Let me know if anyone needs me to find that part number.

-Rich

Rich,
I really impressed with R&S!
Thanks,
Rob
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on February 16, 2019, 10:55:56 pm
Thanks Rob - appreciate the kind words!

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on February 16, 2019, 10:56:52 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on February 16, 2019, 11:10:59 pm
...
 We put the comparators in the pods which is part of the reason they are more expensive,
...

Yes, they are 4 x ADCMP562BRQ â 6 EUR (DK & co but obsolet), but you offer good service which then balances it out again.

 :-+   ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on February 16, 2019, 11:32:20 pm
...
 We put the comparators in the pods which is part of the reason they are more expensive,
...

Yes, they are 4 x ADCMP562BRQ â 6 EUR (DK & co but obsolet), but you offer good service which then balances it out again.

 :-+   ;)
Ha!  I knew the second I posted that I was going to get beat up  :palm:  You're right, the comparators aren't expensive.   I guess my point was the ability to disconnect the flying leads which are less expensive.  And thanks for the note on the service - R&S as a whole tries really hard.  We aren't perfect, but I'd personally put us up there with the best.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on February 18, 2019, 04:20:04 pm
Hi Folks - All PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on February 20, 2019, 07:03:21 pm
Hi Folks - All PMs replied.

Best,
Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on February 21, 2019, 11:19:02 pm
Hi Folks - All PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Aidanator7000 on February 27, 2019, 05:40:41 am
Hey all

I'm considering an RTB2004 and found that R&S have a bargain store where they sell (as far as I can tell) refurbished equipment. Does anyone have any experience with this store and can you tell me if the units come as new (with all accessories) with a warranty? Also I presume global shipping is offered?

On another note I have been looking at potentially purchasing it instead from element14/newark and I see they have the base model listed for $2080 USD on their US website while it is about $3800 NZD on their NZ website (excluding GST). 

https://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2004/digital-storage-osc-70mhz-4-ch/dp/11AC0569 (https://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2004/digital-storage-osc-70mhz-4-ch/dp/11AC0569)
https://nz.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2004-rtb2k-74/digital-storage-osc-70mhz-2-ch/dp/2723115?st=rtb2004 (https://nz.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2004-rtb2k-74/digital-storage-osc-70mhz-2-ch/dp/2723115?st=rtb2004)

I am curious as to why the NZ site has it listed for so much more when at the current exchange rate 2080 USD is just over $3000 NZD... anyone know the reasoning for this?....

And i thought that price hike was ridiculous till I contacted my local distributor who quoted between $5-6k for the base model.

Thanks for any help, Aidan
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on February 27, 2019, 08:32:28 am
Hey all

I'm considering an RTB2004 and found that R&S have a bargain store where they sell (as far as I can tell) refurbished equipment. Does anyone have any experience with this store and can you tell me if the units come as new (with all accessories) with a warranty? Also I presume global shipping is offered?

On another note I have been looking at potentially purchasing it instead from element14/newark and I see they have the base model listed for $2080 USD on their US website while it is about $3800 NZD on their NZ website (excluding GST). 

https://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2004/digital-storage-osc-70mhz-4-ch/dp/11AC0569 (https://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2004/digital-storage-osc-70mhz-4-ch/dp/11AC0569)
https://nz.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2004-rtb2k-74/digital-storage-osc-70mhz-2-ch/dp/2723115?st=rtb2004 (https://nz.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2004-rtb2k-74/digital-storage-osc-70mhz-2-ch/dp/2723115?st=rtb2004)

I am curious as to why the NZ site has it listed for so much more when at the current exchange rate 2080 USD is just over $3000 NZD... anyone know the reasoning for this?....

And i thought that price hike was ridiculous till I contacted my local distributor who quoted between $5-6k for the base model.

Thanks for any help, Aidan
Nearly NZD4k inc GST for a 4ch 70 MHz DSO sounds crazy when the same $ could get you a 300 MHz 4ch DSO with some $ left over to put toward options.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Aidanator7000 on February 27, 2019, 09:15:33 am
I'm aware of that but you have to admit the alternatives would not be as polished and/or reputable. In any case that is why I said I am "considering" not am going to... I'm weighing up the available options.


Nearly NZD4k inc GST for a 4ch 70 MHz DSO sounds crazy when the same $ could get you a 300 MHz 4ch DSO with some $ left over to put toward options.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on February 27, 2019, 09:21:06 am
 :)
Sure, if you like polished screens.   :P

I do have demos that may make you reconsider.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Aidanator7000 on February 27, 2019, 09:23:37 am
Do you demo R&S scopes now?  :-DD

Honestly i think the polished screen makes the product look polished overall... matte screens remind me of a Kindle E-reader.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on February 27, 2019, 09:53:48 am
I have an RTM3004 as a daily driver scope and the glossy screen doesn't bother me at all.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 27, 2019, 10:04:43 am
I have an RTM3004 as a daily driver scope and the glossy screen doesn't bother me at all.
It's very dependent on positioning - not an issue if nothing's reflected in it, showstopper if something is.
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on February 27, 2019, 12:53:04 pm
I have an RTM3004 as a daily driver scope and the glossy screen doesn't bother me at all.
It's very dependent on positioning - not an issue if nothing's reflected in it, showstopper if something is.

I've had both glossy and matte screens on instruments and I actually like the glossy screen more. When I got the scope I set it up to minimize any reflections by adjusting it's angle and position, once I got used to it I never gave it a second thought. I think if you constantly think about and focus on the specular highlights and reflections you will be less prone to look past them. Either way, glossy or matte it's an easy fix. Maybe if I was limited to where I could put instruments it 'might' be more of a concern but I set up my benches with enough flexibility to move things around when a new instrument arrives.
I just checked a few instruments. My FCA3000 Tek counter has a glossy screen as does my TTI power supply and of course the R&S scope. I just shined a light directly into the scope to see if it bothered my viewing. What I found was that I instinctively moved my head about 6 inches to remove the light from the screen. Once I'm deep into a project I look right past any finger prints although I do clean the screen from time to time. I think glossy screens make the waveforms cleaner but I haven't done a side by side comparison.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on February 27, 2019, 12:54:23 pm
I tried a matte screen protector and then took it off - it worked perfectly well but in the position I had the scope in it was unnecessary. I would not discount the scope because of the glossy screen, as it is miles better than any other scope screen I've ever used (larger and higher resolution - a big part of the reason I bought mine).

As for the price it's the same old story with distributors fucking NZ basically because they can. And they wonder why people buy everything over the net - it's not the GST, it's the massive ripoff factor (normally >>15%)!

Farnell (element14) in the UK has a much more reasonable price compared to the US one in this instance, but they still didn't participate in the 2017 launch promo - to get the deal I had to get one shipped to a friend in the US and picked it up in person (the cost saved paid for a long weekend trip for two to NYC where I picked it up).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Aidanator7000 on February 28, 2019, 03:28:07 am
well we all know by now that the shiny screen is controversial and depends on preference (its been discussed to death in this thread, and yes, I read it all.)


As for the price it's the same old story with distributors fucking NZ basically because they can. And they wonder why people buy everything over the net - it's not the GST, it's the massive ripoff factor (normally >>15%)!


Anyhow, I find it extremely irritating that I have to pay a ~$700 premium simply because I live somewhere else. I can deal with 15% GST but screwing people over just because is ridiculous.

Has anyone here had experience (or know someone who has had experience) with the R&S Global Bargain Shop? If I can get it from there then its almost a no-brainer but I don't like how little their website says.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on February 28, 2019, 04:10:19 am
well we all know by now that the shiny screen is controversial and depends on preference (its been discussed to death in this thread, and yes, I read it all.)


As for the price it's the same old story with distributors fucking NZ basically because they can. And they wonder why people buy everything over the net - it's not the GST, it's the massive ripoff factor (normally >>15%)!


Anyhow, I find it extremely irritating that I have to pay a ~$700 premium simply because I live somewhere else. I can deal with 15% GST but screwing people over just because is ridiculous.

Has anyone here had experience (or know someone who has had experience) with the R&S Global Bargain Shop? If I can get it from there then its almost a no-brainer but I don't like how little their website says.

I think the only way around it would be a re-shipper.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on February 28, 2019, 07:40:49 am
I recall looking into re-shipment options to both the UK and NZ when I got mine - was gonna be expensive plus Newark were pricks about anything that smelt like someone not in the US trying to buy a unit. There are some other distributors who are nicer to deal with however (in my case, Microlease).
Youshop was not an option btw due to the value of the unit.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 08, 2019, 06:33:49 pm
Hi Folks - All PMs replied.  Sorry for my slowness!

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 11, 2019, 01:59:03 pm
Hi Folks - All PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: sixtimesseven on March 11, 2019, 03:48:31 pm
Hi Rich

I have to say the Bode option on the RTB2000 is absolutly fantastic.
The division on the screen is good, it is possible to only get the Bode Plot on screen, it is quiet fast. The stepped generator voltage is just a brilliant idea!

Thank you also for including it in the existing package! I already have a freq. response analyzer (HP3577A) and thous would not have paid the additional 500 dollar for now but I will use that HP monster less now.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on March 11, 2019, 04:45:09 pm
Seems like the 50% RTB-PK1 offer is back - at least at Batronix. Valid until end of June 2019.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 12, 2019, 02:20:30 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: simone.pignatti on March 12, 2019, 05:46:23 pm
yes it is official, active for all R&S partners.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rtgvcde on March 15, 2019, 11:57:16 am
Hi Rich,

How about people that bought the RTB2K-COM4 package? Can we receive K36 as a free upgrade as well?

Thanks!
FYI - for those of you that have asked this similar question in the PMs, I can confirm that people who own RTx-COM2/COM4 will also receive the K36 as a free upgrade.

-Rich

Hello Rich,

is this a special offer in USA again? I haven't found any information on how to apply for the free upgrade. I bought the RTB-PK1 from Farnell.

If this is not a limited offer it would be nice to post the necessary information here.

Markus
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 15, 2019, 06:15:12 pm
Hi Rich,

How about people that bought the RTB2K-COM4 package? Can we receive K36 as a free upgrade as well?

Thanks!
FYI - for those of you that have asked this similar question in the PMs, I can confirm that people who own RTx-COM2/COM4 will also receive the K36 as a free upgrade.

-Rich

Hello Rich,

is this a special offer in USA again? I haven't found any information on how to apply for the free upgrade. I bought the RTB-PK1 from Farnell.

If this is not a limited offer it would be nice to post the necessary information here.

Markus
Hi Markus - it is available worldwide for anyone who purchased a PK1 or COM4 model.  Please send me a PM and I'll give you the details on how to request it.

For everyone else - all PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 18, 2019, 04:35:01 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Nouser2018 on March 19, 2019, 09:25:10 pm
Greetings all,

I installed the 02.202 firmware yesterday on my RTB2004. Turns out that there now seems a persistence configured I cannot seem to get rid of. See attached pictures.


When changing for instance the scale, I'd see 1 or 2 wave forms at first, but then the screen fills up until I have this thick line. And as shown in the pictures, line thickness is the same regardless of Y scale. Particulary with large Y scale, I don't know if I'm seeing noise or if it's the scopes functionality.

I find this extremely annoying and am somewhat sure it was different in a previous firmware version. Am I chasing a ghost? How do I restore the previous behavior?

Thanks.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: genghisnico13 on March 26, 2019, 02:24:51 pm
I don't understand the results of the SCPI command :SRATe?
How is the waveform sample rate calculated?

Acquisition Record Length: 1 MSa
Time scale: 50 µs/

:ACQuire:POINts:ARATe?;:ACQuire:SRATe?
"1.2500E+09;2.08E+08"

ADC sample rate: 1.25 GSa/s
Waveform sample rate: 208 MSa/s

My attempt at calculation:

12 * 50 µs = 600 µs
1 s / 0.0006 s = 1666.67
1.25 GSa / 1666.67 = 750000 Sa
History No. of Segments is 319 * 750000 Sa = 239.25 MSa/s

Is the 1 MSa record length interpolated when reading the data?

Peter
The documentation doesn't seem very clear about it, I am writing a sigrok driver (hopefully to the entire R&S family), and which command you use depends on where you take the data from (CHAN:DATA:POIN DEF/DMAX/MEM), if you use DEF it gives you a little more than the screen data (around 100kSa) and you need to use ACQ:SRAT? and if you use DMAX/MEM you need to use ACQ:POIN:ARAT?. I haven't tested all cases to make sure it works 100%, but so far it seems to work.
In order to use DMAX/MEM the scope can't be running.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AlexFerro on March 27, 2019, 07:36:04 pm
PeDre

I just tested that on mine.
With one channel enabled, and thus sample interleaving for 2.5GSPS operation at high sweep speeds, I can reproduce this. It looks like the default conditions change the sample rate from 2.5GSPS to 1.25GSPS between 500us/div and 1ms/div. When a second channel is enabled from the same group it never is in interleaved sampling mode. The relay click appears to be associated with that transition to/from interleaved sampling, and since it no longer needs to be interleaved, the scope changes that internal mode at that point.

I am not familiar with the internal architecture to answer why a relay clicks during that operation, but it would make sense to be associated with the switch to the signal path routing for interleaved mode.

Does that help?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on April 05, 2019, 12:23:41 pm
Hi Everyone - I'm very sorry for my slow response.  I've just responded to all the PMs.  Please let me know if you did not receive a response.

Thanks,
Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on April 05, 2019, 12:37:08 pm
Rich,
Although I don't own an R&S scope myself, my respect for your involvement here on the forum. I'm sure this has a positive impact for R&S!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on April 05, 2019, 02:28:30 pm
Thank you - I appreciate the kind words.  Although I've been lax the last week or so - spring break with the kiddos.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on April 05, 2019, 03:32:21 pm
Where is the best place to send errors and change requests?
I wrote the question to customersupport(at)rohde-schwarz.com but didn't get an answer.
The e-mail address was from R&S Austria, I prefer to write in German than in English.
I can also post here, but suspect that it will be ignored.

Peter
Hi Peter - that is the correct email address for Austria.  It is monitored 24/7, so if it was picked up by another region it sometimes takes a bit to get routed to the correct region.  If you write it in German I bet it will be routed quicker by non-German speaking regions  ;D

You can also use gloris.rohde-schwarz.com.  You can create an account there and I believe submit questions/issues.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on April 11, 2019, 02:36:42 pm
I tried to get mine to duplicate this and couldn't. Sampling rate just follows time base. Even if I manually set the record length, the sample rate would still just follow the time base on what ever calculation it's using. I did notice sometimes, the sample rate took a moment to update when changing the time base.

At 20uS/div you should be at 2.5GSa/S unless you played with the record length.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fgrir on April 11, 2019, 05:40:40 pm

The record length is set to automatic.

1. Normal Trigger: 20 µs/, 2.5 GSa/s
2. Change to 50 µs/: 625 MSa/s
3. Change to Auto Trigger: 2.5 GSa/s

Peter

I can confirm this behavior on my unit also running FW 2.202.

In Auto trigger mode the sample rate is 2.5GSa/s for 500us/ and faster, switching to 1.25GSa/s for 1ms/ and so on.

When switching into Normal trigger mode, the sample rate remains unchanged, but then switching to any slower horizontal setting than what was active when you switched into normal mode causes a lower sample rate than the 2.5GSa/s.  For example if I switch to Normal trigger mode while the scope is at 100us/, then I get 2.5GSa/s for 100us/ and faster, but it switches to 1.25GSa/s at 50us/, 312MSa/s at 500us/, and so on.  Switching back to Auto trigger at 500us/ takes you back to 2.5GSa/s.

It looks to me like the scope is locking the Auto Record length setting when I enter Normal trigger mode.

EDIT: Yes, it is definitely locking the Auto Record Length when you switch to Normal trigger mode.  Screenshots 1-3 show the record length changing as timebase setting is changed while in Auto mode, and screens 4-6 show the constant record length while timebase changes in Normal mode.

EDIT 2: Even more interesting is that the locked 3 MSa Record length displayed for 500us/ in screen #6 isn't even a valid record length for that sample rate - it is between the allowed settings of 2MSa and 5MSa.  It actually appears to be using the 2 MSa setting.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on April 18, 2019, 05:51:38 pm
Looks like you need to compensate the probes on the R&S, for the rest I see nothing wrong?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PA0PBZ on April 18, 2019, 06:34:09 pm
The probes are compensated. The RTB2k offers its own option for this. When I use the Rigol probe, the signal looks the same as with the RTB2k probe.

Peter

Having compensated the probes on the Rigol does not mean that they are compensated for the R&S because the input capacitance of the scopes can be different. Are you using the R&S probes on the R&S scope and did you follow the probe adjust procedure? What if you connect the Rigol probes and do the probe adjust procedure?



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: exe on April 18, 2019, 09:23:04 pm
With the 1:1 setting the compensation works but is not correct.

I'm not sure 1:1 can be compensated. I think only in 1:10 mode the compensation works as this way you adjust capacitive divider to match the same ratio as resistive divider (1:10). The pictures you showed looks fine to me, b you need to adjust probes on rtb2k.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on April 19, 2019, 05:40:16 am
Any probes are not compensated for 1:1 mode. It's impossible. Only 1:10 (1:100 etc) can be  compensated. See probe scheme...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: matches on April 19, 2019, 06:11:41 pm
Yeah in x1 mode, there is nothing to compensate for.
Dave has a nice video regarding specifics of the x1 mode of the switchable probes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiAmER1OJh4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiAmER1OJh4)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on April 25, 2019, 04:36:50 pm
Pedre, your screenshot shows an amplitude of 250 mV instead of the proper 2.5V. It looks like you have the probe switched to 10:1 but configured as a 1:1 in the RTB2000. That's probably the cause of the error.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on April 26, 2019, 07:26:36 pm
Pedre, your screenshot shows an amplitude of 250 mV instead of the proper 2.5V. It looks like you have the probe switched to 10:1 but configured as a 1:1 in the RTB2000. That's probably the cause of the error.
No, the oscilloscope does this by itself if you use the Probe Adjust App on channel 1. The compensation doesn't work with the Probe Adjust App and channel 1.
I have described it here:
http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rohde-schwarz-rtb2000/fehler-005.htm (http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rohde-schwarz-rtb2000/fehler-005.htm)

You have an RTB2004, maybe you can confirm the error.

Peter
Hi Peter - talked with the R&D team on this.  It sounds like they know about this and it has been fixed in the next release.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on April 26, 2019, 07:30:57 pm
All PMs replied as well.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on April 28, 2019, 02:12:23 am

Hi Peter - talked with the R&D team on this.  It sounds like they know about this and it has been fixed in the next release.

-Rich

Cool, another release! :D  More stuff fixed and maybe a new thing or 2...  Always makes me happy to see continuing support on a product.  :)  Thanks R & S!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on April 28, 2019, 05:37:58 am
Finally had a chance to take a look at the probe adjust bug and confirm it, but I guess it's moot since R&S already fixed it.

Good catch on the sample rate/record length bug with normal trigger. I noticed some unexpected stuff going on with the sample rate before and didn't understand why. That would explain it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on April 29, 2019, 12:16:01 am
Is there anything I can do to change the record length in FFT mode to be smaller? Here's why:

I often use the FFT function (love the new improvements) with relatively low frequency spans < 100kHz (think audio frequencies), and then the fixed record size quickly becomes annoying.

For example, looking at a 24kHz span with a 10Hz resolution bandwidth, the resulting window size is only 2400 points, which at the proper Nyquist rate of 48kHz (which the scope chooses) takes 100ms to capture. (The scope actually chooses a different width depending on the chosen windowing function, e.g. 89.04ms for a rectangular window, but I suspect the effective RBW depends on that function.)

However, the fixed record size of 131kSamples (2^17) is much larger than that, taking around 2.7 seconds to fill up at 48kHz. If I choose a lower span or a better RBW, it can get into tens of seconds per update.

In the screenshot, you can see that the window is pretty small in comparison to the record. The good thing is that I can stop the acquisition and move the window around those 2.7s to look at the spectrum at different times, or change the RBW without recapturing, but most of the time I'd rather have the quickest update rate possible, especially for fast-changing signals.

Interestingly, it seems that the scope would do the right thing in Roll mode, but then it does not display the FFT at all anymore (I suspect because there is no actual trigger).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: luzotug on April 29, 2019, 09:41:41 pm
Where is the best place to send errors and change requests?
I wrote the question to customersupport(at)rohde-schwarz.com but didn't get an answer.

I've used the customer email support to get my RTB-K36 license and, as Rich said, "it takes sometimes". Always got an answer the following day.
A couple of days was needed to get my activation license (in addition of scope id and RTB-PK1 serial number, your name and address are also mandatory info).
I'm a hobbist and I found it was an adequate response time, no complaints here. I can give a thumbs up to the R&S customer support  :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on April 30, 2019, 07:17:55 am
Is there anything I can do to change the record length in FFT mode to be smaller?

 Yes, yes, and yes again. Work FFT has become much less convenient. This should be changed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on April 30, 2019, 11:26:22 pm
Work FFT has become much less convenient.

Oh, does that mean it was different before the last update, which brought the significant changes to the FFT app? Anyway, apart from the lack of being able to specify a smaller record length in FFT, I am very fond of the updated FFT function.

I am also very happy with the scope in general. There are some small things that I wish were different, like the aforementioned FFT issue, the much-spoken-about indents in some of the rotary encoders, or the somehow minor but noticeable fact that almost all of the selectable grid intensity range is too high in contrast for my taste, so that I almost always have to switch it to either the lowest intensity or a dot grid (and yet the scope is always very happy to snap back to the uncomfortably high contrast grid, e.g. when pressing Preset). But overall, I'm very glad I chose this scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 01, 2019, 08:12:02 pm
Hi Everyone - all PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: sbrunner on May 10, 2019, 05:07:44 pm
Only the English version was updated yesterday. Contains new Bode Plot feature, and appears to integrate 02.202 enhancements. The German version is still on v5 from 2018.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: genghisnico13 on May 10, 2019, 09:40:52 pm
Hi Rich,
Would it be possible to add an option similar to "Vert. Position Knob" but for math channels or at least to follow this setting? Let me explain:
Currently the "Math Vert. Position Knob" option(that I would like to be added) is set to Position, not Offset which is how I would prefer it, so when you change the Math channel Vertical scale the center of the waveform doesn't remain in the center of the screen requiring an increasingly bigger position adjustment every time I change the scale.
I suppose an Offset field should be added in the Math menu, next to the position and scale one. Speaking of the Scale field in the Math menu you can set values out of range that aren't possible, accepting them without changing the scale (refreshing it to the real value after closing and reopening the menu) and the Min/Max displayed are nonsense.

Would it be also possible to have different colors for each math channel?

There are some inconsistencies with Zoom and Math, when you enable Zoom, the Math channels appear in the zoom window, but if you zoom they don't change, this is not 100% consistent but could be OK since usually the zoom window is bigger.
Maybe it would be better to change the scale of the selected math waveform with the vertical scale knob when selecting by touching a Math channel in the Zoom window, since unlike with real channels you can't select a math channel in the unZoomed window (they disappear) and to change its scale requires you to select the desired math channel from the "Short menu" (or the math button to select the last). I'm not sure if this is the best way to do this.

Since I'm asking, would it be possible to add References to Bode?

PD: I'm not gonna ask about adding filters to the math functions......but that would be awesome. ;)
edit: typo
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 14, 2019, 05:47:26 pm
I'll forward these on to the dev team.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 14, 2019, 05:49:25 pm
All PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: YetAnotherTechie on May 17, 2019, 03:48:51 pm
Hello,
Is there any documentation on the probe protocol that would allow making your own probes?
Some literature says the RT-ZA9 can be controlled by any PC, but i can't find either software or manual on R&S website

Thank you
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 17, 2019, 07:07:42 pm
All PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on May 17, 2019, 07:10:42 pm
There's currently a massive promotion in Germany, including the RTB2K4-COM4 for 3200EUR net: https://www.datatec.de/info/aktionen-angebote/ac00461-messpakete-zum-unschlagbaren-aktionspreis (https://www.datatec.de/info/aktionen-angebote/ac00461-messpakete-zum-unschlagbaren-aktionspreis)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 17, 2019, 07:16:05 pm
There's currently a massive promotion in Germany, including the RTB2K4-COM4 for 3200EUR net: https://www.datatec.de/info/aktionen-angebote/ac00461-messpakete-zum-unschlagbaren-aktionspreis (https://www.datatec.de/info/aktionen-angebote/ac00461-messpakete-zum-unschlagbaren-aktionspreis)
It's already leaked  8)  I believe this is worldwide (China may be an exception - not 100% sure).  And it's not just on the RTB2000.  I'm super excited for it - similar to our launch edition (albeit slightly more expensive), but without a quantity limit this time.  Like I said in the other thread - we've tried really hard to listen to customer feedback:  projects change, you have money now, not sure if you'll be able to buy upgrades in the future, you want everything turned on for one price, etc.  You can still buy any of the other models, but in a lot of cases, why would you?  When you can get a loaded (all options, even MSO/Bandwidth) Scope, SpecAn or Power Supply/Analyzer for one low price.  Is it for everyone?  No, but hopefully you all will see it as a step in the right direction (and vote with your money  ;) ).

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on May 17, 2019, 07:44:44 pm
It's slightly annoying that it's a year after I bought mine, but that's life. Hopefully more people decide to buy this great scope (or one of the other offered products)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on May 18, 2019, 06:50:02 am
It's slightly annoying that it's a year after I bought mine, but that's life. Hopefully more people decide to buy this great scope (or one of the other offered products)

It could have been worse, you could have paid $12k for Altium and then have them permanently slash the price the next month by 75%!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on May 18, 2019, 06:52:41 am
There's currently a massive promotion in Germany, including the RTB2K4-COM4 for 3200EUR net: https://www.datatec.de/info/aktionen-angebote/ac00461-messpakete-zum-unschlagbaren-aktionspreis (https://www.datatec.de/info/aktionen-angebote/ac00461-messpakete-zum-unschlagbaren-aktionspreis)
It's already leaked  8)  I believe this is worldwide (China may be an exception - not 100% sure).  And it's not just on the RTB2000.  I'm super excited for it - similar to our launch edition (albeit slightly more expensive), but without a quantity limit this time.  Like I said in the other thread - we've tried really hard to listen to customer feedback:  projects change, you have money now, not sure if you'll be able to buy upgrades in the future, you want everything turned on for one price, etc.  You can still buy any of the other models, but in a lot of cases, why would you?  When you can get a loaded (all options, even MSO/Bandwidth) Scope, SpecAn or Power Supply/Analyzer for one low price.  Is it for everyone?  No, but hopefully you all will see it as a step in the right direction (and vote with your money  ;) ).
-Rich

Will this be a permanent thing or just a limited time promotion?
It would be interesting to say the least if one of the major players abandoned the upgrade/options model system entirely.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 18, 2019, 03:40:38 pm
There's currently a massive promotion in Germany, including the RTB2K4-COM4 for 3200EUR net: https://www.datatec.de/info/aktionen-angebote/ac00461-messpakete-zum-unschlagbaren-aktionspreis (https://www.datatec.de/info/aktionen-angebote/ac00461-messpakete-zum-unschlagbaren-aktionspreis)
It's already leaked  8)  I believe this is worldwide (China may be an exception - not 100% sure).  And it's not just on the RTB2000.  I'm super excited for it - similar to our launch edition (albeit slightly more expensive), but without a quantity limit this time.  Like I said in the other thread - we've tried really hard to listen to customer feedback:  projects change, you have money now, not sure if you'll be able to buy upgrades in the future, you want everything turned on for one price, etc.  You can still buy any of the other models, but in a lot of cases, why would you?  When you can get a loaded (all options, even MSO/Bandwidth) Scope, SpecAn or Power Supply/Analyzer for one low price.  Is it for everyone?  No, but hopefully you all will see it as a step in the right direction (and vote with your money  ;) ).
-Rich

Will this be a permanent thing or just a limited time promotion?
It would be interesting to say the least if one of the major players abandoned the upgrade/options model system entirely.
It is a promotion through December 31, 2019.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on May 18, 2019, 04:14:01 pm
When you can get a loaded (all options, even MSO/Bandwidth) Scope, SpecAn or Power Supply/Analyzer for one low price.  Is it for everyone?  No, but hopefully you all will see it as a step in the right direction (and vote with your money  ;) ).
While this surely is a step in the right direction, not everybody needs 1GHz, MSO and all the options and would favor a package in the medium price range. Like (also in the light of the newest Siglent offerings) something like an RTM3000 with 4 channels an all standard serial decoders in the 4k€-6k€ range.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on May 18, 2019, 06:28:05 pm
When you can get a loaded (all options, even MSO/Bandwidth) Scope, SpecAn or Power Supply/Analyzer for one low price.  Is it for everyone?  No, but hopefully you all will see it as a step in the right direction (and vote with your money  ;) ).
While this surely is a step in the right direction, not everybody needs 1GHz, MSO and all the options and would favor a package in the medium price range. Like (also in the light of the newest Siglent offerings) something like an RTM3000 with 4 channels an all standard serial decoders in the 4k€-6k€ range.

Agreed. While the RTB promotion makes sense, there is a huge gap with the promo RTM (3200E>8600E) and with the promo RTA barely higher at 10500E, it could have made sense to have an offering in the 5-6kE range.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on May 18, 2019, 07:51:24 pm
Agreed. While the RTB promotion makes sense, there is a huge gap with the promo RTM (3200E>8600E) and with the promo RTA barely higher at 10500E, it could have made sense to have an offering in the 5-6kE range.

LOL.
Companies are not here to help us. They exist to make money. This is another one of campaigns where manufacturer is spinning  facts and wanting to create positive emotions.
But all they are doing is trying to move hundreds of scopes that are not selling because original price is frankly idiotic. They are doing this only for 1GHz scopes because nobody buys them.
And all they proved is that 1GHz fully loaded one realistic price is 8600 €. Which is about right..  And they should drop 100MHz and 200MHz models, and start with 350MHz at 3000ish €.
Siglent SDS5000X has the right idea.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 22, 2019, 01:48:53 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on May 22, 2019, 02:48:35 pm
And all they proved is that 1GHz fully loaded one realistic price is 8600 €. Which is about right.. 
Yeah, while this discount causes the 1GHz full featured version to enter a somewhat realistic price range (and even quite a bit below a full featured Rigol MSO7000 500MHz), limiting the discount to the top model with all features creates some really weird pricing issues. E.g. a used demonstration model of the RTM3104 without any options now costs about the same as a full featured brand new RTM3104 in R&S's own store. Also the 1GHz version without features is now much more expensive than the full featured version. So I guess that more or less all models above 200MHz will be impossible to sell until the discount is over.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RobBarter on May 22, 2019, 02:58:19 pm
And my RTM3004 100MHz with all options only arrived a month ago  :palm:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tv84 on May 22, 2019, 03:27:37 pm
Today I bought an MSO5000 but wanted to buy a RTB2004...  :-\

All because this discount only happened in the the full-optioned versions.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JxR on May 22, 2019, 03:50:08 pm
Today I bought an MSO5000 but wanted to buy a RTB2004...  :-\

All because this discount only happened in the the full-optioned versions.



Yep, It's too bad they don't just provide the discount at different bandwidth levels.  Not like there is an actual hardware difference between them either, just a software license.  The only reason I have the RTB2004 is because I got it at the original COM4 price when the unit first came out.  Above that price, I would be looking at different manufacturers as well.  I would love to see a heavily discounted RTM3004 @350MHz so I could sale the one I have and trade up.  I don't technically need 1GHz, but would love to have the probe interface, more memory, and the power/spectrum analysis options.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rowifi on May 23, 2019, 06:39:35 pm
I almost bought a RTB2004 but there are still bugs in it which made it unusable until fixed.
Mainly, Segmented memory, replay with overlay enabled. Doesn't work properly.
There are other bugs in the display, double image after trigger/held but correcting itself if time base adjusted.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JxR on May 23, 2019, 07:00:02 pm
I almost bought a RTB2004 but there are still bugs in it which made it unusable until fixed.

"Unusable"?  Give me a break, there hasn't been a bug of that level in its entire life-cycle.  Some people are just drama queens.  If there were actual bugs that made the device unusable the actual owners of the scope would be throwing a fit.  The fact is, the firmware is quite mature at this time and it generally works great.  Are there still improvements to be made, yes, just like every other product.  Is the device currently "unusable", absolutely not.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on May 23, 2019, 07:28:48 pm
I'm really happy with my RTB, and I don't think I even encountered a noticeable bug. At first I thought measured risetime was off, but then I added a 50 Ohm termination. Now measured risetime with a 50Ohm inline termination is 980-990ps +-7ps (at 2.5GSa) while without it floats around 1.35-1.5ns +- 50ps (likely due to reflections into the fast edge generator).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 23, 2019, 08:45:54 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rowifi on May 23, 2019, 09:25:09 pm
Unusable for the purpose  I  needed it for. The  facts are the scope  is here waiting to be collected. The segmented memory replay has bugs. The overlay  function does not work. R&S have acknowledged it and are still working to fix it.  Of course it  works generally, but  a paid for software feature that is  critipcal to analyse the changes between individual segmented trigger captures simply fails.
Spending 3K+ on a tool that doesn't ( yet) do  what it should is hardly being a drama queen. I'm sure they will fix it, but until then it's value to  me is limited.
Clearly most  actual owners haven't used the more in depth features, perhaps they just like the the decoding and touch screen whereas some of us need it to perform as it was intended.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on May 23, 2019, 09:52:48 pm
Unusable for the purpose  I  needed it for. The  facts are the scope  is here waiting to be collected. The segmented memory replay has bugs. The overlay  function does not work. R&S have acknowledged it and are still working to fix it.  Of course it  works generally, but  a paid for software feature that is  critipcal to analyse the changes between individual segmented trigger captures simply fails.
Spending 3K+ on a tool that doesn't ( yet) do  what it should is hardly being a drama queen. I'm sure they will fix it, but until then it's value to  me is limited.
Clearly most  actual owners haven't used the more in depth features, perhaps they just like the the decoding and touch screen whereas some of us need it to perform as it was intended.

What specifically doesn't work? I'm curious as someone who has used segmented memory and playback for analysis. I'm not sure what you mean by overlay function. Are you referring to a saved waveform?

Also if you bought the scope for a single function that doesn't work I can understand not wanting it but calling it unusable is demonstrably false.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JxR on May 24, 2019, 01:16:51 am
Of course it  works generally...
Oh, so it usable then?  A bit dramatic of you to make false statements about the scope in general because you found a bug in one area.  Maybe that is why I called you a drama queen...

Clearly most  actual owners haven't used the more in depth features, perhaps they just like the the decoding and touch screen whereas some of us need it to perform as it was intended.
Clearly you must feel that insulting every other owner of this scope somehow makes you superior.  Best of luck to you, and I hope you manage to find your perfect scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on May 24, 2019, 01:20:06 am
Clearly most  actual owners haven't used the more in depth features, perhaps they just like the the decoding and touch screen whereas some of us need it to perform as it was intended.

Yeah, no. Not only this is insulting, but also just plain wrong. Please don't make generalizing statements like this just because one feature you really need isn't working.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on May 24, 2019, 01:38:27 am
Clearly most  actual owners haven't used the more in depth features, perhaps they just like the the decoding and touch screen whereas some of us need it to perform as it was intended.

Yeah, no. Not only this is insulting, but also just plain wrong. Please don't make generalizing statements like this just because one feature you really need isn't working.
Its not insulting. Its just realistic. Most people only use a small subset of the features of most instruments. That's all they need, and they have no incentive to find what other features are even present. Only when the instrument proves annoying do they try to find a new and more effective way to use it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: LaurentR on May 24, 2019, 03:41:56 am
Promo up on TEquipment in the US:
https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-and-Schwarz-promotions-and-offers/?utm_campaign=edc&utm_source=tm&obem=o3gmwH16cVG91bBXxAoKOA%3D%3D&bc_lid=11#changeseverything2019 (https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-and-Schwarz-promotions-and-offers/?utm_campaign=edc&utm_source=tm&obem=o3gmwH16cVG91bBXxAoKOA%3D%3D&bc_lid=11#changeseverything2019)

RTC1K-COM2: $1,490.00
RTB2K-COM4: $3,700.00
RTM-COM4US: $9,900.00
RTA-COM4US: $12,000.00

More discounts on fully optioned power supplies, spectrum analyzers... (see link above)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on May 24, 2019, 04:02:05 am
Hi,

no Spectrum analysis and spectrogram 4 R&S®RTA-K18?

best regards
egonotto
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on May 24, 2019, 04:04:14 am
US doesn't get it, those are unavailable in our market.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on May 24, 2019, 04:06:15 am
That's weird. A regulation thing?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on May 24, 2019, 04:10:02 am
I have heard about regulations regarding that but I don't have any links. It is in the datasheet that it's not available in US market though.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on May 24, 2019, 04:26:10 am
Hi,

it is probably much too dangerous. What not all can happen, if this feature come in wrong hands :)
 

best regards
egonotto
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rowifi on May 24, 2019, 05:35:20 am
Not being an owner does not mean I haven't used the scope in depth. The scope was on evaluation in preparation to buy it with the particular aim to do said measurements of subsequent triggered segment captures.
Measuring the event timing change between each capture requires the scope to display on screen more than a single capture as the segments are replayed.
Without having persistence (overlaying) of separate segments then measuring the differences  is not possible. I can't recall the exact function name.
I'm sorry if some R&S scope fans are triggered by my pointing out flaws but I have plenty of videos of the problem which have been received by R&S who have acknowledge the bug.
As mentioned, few owners probably use all features, many here are just hobbiests, not all will have the extended memory options either.
I really don't get the hostility shown for simply pointing out facts.
Fact is the Rigol 7000 was evaluated prior to this and was a disaster due to bugs. At least R&S engaged. Unfortunately to my knowledge the bug has not been resolved  yet.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: rowifi on May 24, 2019, 05:56:13 am
What specifically doesn't work? I'm curious as someone who has used segmented memory and playback for analysis. I'm not sure what you mean by overlay function. Are you referring to a saved waveform?
PM you with link
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on May 24, 2019, 08:43:02 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on June 05, 2019, 03:13:44 pm
FYI: There's a whole bunch of RTB2004's and RTM3Ks and a load of other test gear up on auction site:
https://www.troostwijkauctions.com/uk/da-elekmess/01-29457/20/ (https://www.troostwijkauctions.com/uk/da-elekmess/01-29457/20/)

For example:
https://www.troostwijkauctions.com/uk/oscilloscope-4-channel/03-29457-33390-5714971/ (https://www.troostwijkauctions.com/uk/oscilloscope-4-channel/03-29457-33390-5714971/)

But seeing the current price reduction, one might wonder if it's worth it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: YetAnotherTechie on June 05, 2019, 05:54:33 pm
Here's my analysis, please don't let that discourage you from posting other auction deals!! I've bought good stuff on other occasions.

RTMs with fee, without VAT: The 500Mhz is 222eur less than a new fully loaded 1GHz with the offer.(8378-8600)
The 350Mhz is 2228eur less than the 1GHz offer.(6372-8600)
The 200Mhz is 1586eur less than a new one.(3894-5480)
None have software options, If all of them are without warranty or only one year left instead of 3, and they don't have the 4x500MHz passive probes, then:
the first is a plain stupid bad bad deal.
the second is bad deal: you can get a new 200 plus all soft options + a free active/differential/current probe for 263eur more.
the third is so so, i'm on the market for one and i wouldn't bid. R&S already ignore you if you're not a company, for no warranty and no support it would have to be half price or have all soft options.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on June 05, 2019, 06:08:55 pm
R&S already ignore you if you're not a company, for no warranty and no support it would have to be half price or have all soft options.

That's not my experience at all.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JxR on June 05, 2019, 06:14:20 pm
That's not my experience at all.

I wouldn't say my experience has been that they ignore me.  The US staff does respond, but then if the question has to be sent to Germany....then my question seems to enter a black hole and pretty much never returns with a response.  For instance I have a new power supply from R&S.  It is completely missing a feature that is clearly in the datasheet, and is one of the reason I purchased the device.  The US team has responded a couple of times (they have no idea why the feature is missing), but R&S in Germany remains silent.

Rich here with R&S is obviously responsive and interacts with us.  I haven't bothered him with my one question though since he seems to be a scope guy, and he would have to end up asking Germany as well.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on June 05, 2019, 06:25:41 pm
I have received answers but like others once things head to Germany it's likely to be a while before you get an answer and even then it's usually not good. So US support seems good, Germany may not care.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on June 05, 2019, 07:01:47 pm
That's not my experience at all.

I wouldn't say my experience has been that they ignore me.  The US staff does respond, but then if the question has to be sent to Germany....then my question seems to enter a black hole and pretty much never returns with a response.  For instance I have a new power supply from R&S.  It is completely missing a feature that is clearly in the datasheet, and is one of the reason I purchased the device.  The US team has responded a couple of times (they have no idea why the feature is missing), but R&S in Germany remains silent.

Rich here with R&S is obviously responsive and interacts with us.  I haven't bothered him with my one question though since he seems to be a scope guy, and he would have to end up asking Germany as well.
Shoot me a PM and I'll get you an answer  :-+

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JxR on June 05, 2019, 09:55:04 pm
Shoot me a PM and I'll get you an answer  :-+

-Rich

Just want to say to all the R&S scope owners, that we are very lucky to have someone like Rich here.  Some of us (myself included) would have preferred the current promotions were a bit more flexible.  For myself at least, that is mainly because I would love a reasonable upgrade path from my RTB2004 to a RTM3004 (which would include selling the RTB to fund the RTM by necessity).

Regardless, not many vendors here have such a consistent presence.  Lately, Brad from Keithley has been great, and Daniel from Keysight does pop up from time to time, but I see Rich here just about every single week responding to us.  Even if that is only: "All PMs replied"...he is still here.  Thanks Rich.  You honestly didn't have do anything, but offering to take my concerns directly to the product manager in Munich for my new NGL is very generous of you, and I appreciate it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on June 06, 2019, 02:14:36 pm
Shoot me a PM and I'll get you an answer  :-+

-Rich

Just want to say to all the R&S scope owners, that we are very lucky to have someone like Rich here.  Some of us (myself included) would have preferred the current promotions were a bit more flexible.  For myself at least, that is mainly because I would love a reasonable upgrade path from my RTB2004 to a RTM3004 (which would include selling the RTB to fund the RTM by necessity).

Regardless, not many vendors here have such a consistent presence.  Lately, Brad from Keithley has been great, and Daniel from Keysight does pop up from time to time, but I see Rich here just about every single week responding to us.  Even if that is only: "All PMs replied"...he is still here.  Thanks Rich.  You honestly didn't have do anything, but offering to take my concerns directly to the product manager in Munich for my new NGL is very generous of you, and I appreciate it.
Thanks for the kind words!  I know interacting with a large company can be tough - hopefully I can smooth some of that for you all.  And I know I won't be able to "fix" everything, but I'm happy to try to do what I can.

Thanks again - I appreciate it!
Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: sdouble on June 06, 2019, 07:52:59 pm
I just ordered a rtm3004 with full option package. I could test the scope for a couple of weeks before ordering.
I was a big lecroy fan. I'm now happy with my new rtm4003.
Just a complain on subpar quality of the rotating button imho. That's really a pitty.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JxR on June 06, 2019, 08:25:23 pm
I just ordered a rtm3004 with full option package. I could test the scope for a couple of weeks before ordering.
I was a big lecroy fan. I'm now happy with my new rtm4003.
Just a complain on subpar quality of the rotating button imho. That's really a pitty.

Nice!  There is a thread just for the RTM3004 located here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rs-rtm3004-the-swiss-knife-oscilloscope/150/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rs-rtm3004-the-swiss-knife-oscilloscope/150/)
Be sure to drop by and let them know what you think.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on June 13, 2019, 11:32:47 am
Hello,

how can you load a arbitrary waveform from PC?

Best regards
egonotto
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on June 13, 2019, 01:31:40 pm
Hallo,

thanks PeDRe.

It does not work for me.

In "Steuerung mittels SCPI" I write
:WGEN:ARB:FILE:NAME "/INT/REFERENCE/PWM_UNIPOL.CSV"

and got 0,"No error"

Than I write
:WGEN:ARB:FILE:OPEN
and got
-200,"Execution error"

PWM_UNIPOL.CSV is a file from Rohde & Schwarz.

Best regards
egonotto

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on June 13, 2019, 03:13:47 pm
Hallo Peter,

danke. Now it works :)


I think the generator was enabled too before.

As I use VISTA I can not use your messinstrumente.exe because the driver does not work for VISTA :(

The next step is to bring data from PC to the scope.

Best regards
egonotto


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on June 13, 2019, 06:36:20 pm
Hallo Peter,

danke. I will try to install a driver to use your program.

What should I use
● USB TMC (Test & Measurement Class)
● USB VCP (Virtual Com Port)
● USB MTP (Media Transfer Protocol)?

It seems Rohde & Schwarz don't want that we copy files from PC to the scope.
What a pity.

I try
:MMEM:DATA "/USB_FRONT/TEST.TRF","d:test2.cvs"
in Steuerung mittels SCPI
This give no error but too no file in /USB_FRONT :(

Best regards
egonotto

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on June 15, 2019, 07:00:14 pm
Hallo Peter,

danke für Deine Hilfe.

With USB-TMC I got your program to work. But than I lose the LAN-connection.

 
I want remote access using a web browser and want load a waveform file from PC to load in the generator. This seems not possible :(

Best regards
egonotto


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on June 17, 2019, 03:49:10 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs replied. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Dexter23 on June 17, 2019, 05:32:45 pm
Hello fellow RTB2004 users,

I'm not sure if my problem with this scope is a bug or user error, please help me to figure this out.

I can't get my scope (RTB2004 firmware v2.202) to trigger on logic channels only (it works fine if i analize a protocol, but this is just some simple digital signal).

For my current setup i only use the logic channels D0...D7 (no analog)
- D0 is connected to a low frequency (250Hz) 3.3V logic signal
- D1 is connected to a 500Hz logic signal
- The trigger is setup is set to Edge, rising edge, D1 (or D0 makes no difference), Threshold 1.4V, hold off is off
I am unable to get the scope to (normal) trigger on this signal.

When i lower the frequency of my signal to lets say 1hz i see the arrows (next to D7-0 channel indicator at the bottom of the screen) for channel 0 and 1 change with my signal, so it is being read, but no trigger event occurs.

I can get a display when i force trigger or in 'auto' mode but not in normal mode...

Can someone tell me what i do wrong or can somebody reproduce this problem.
Triggering on an analog input on the same signal works fine, also using only the digital inputs to read spi or I2C and triggering on it works fine (using protocol analyzer), but this 'simple' setup does not work (for me).

Please help me solve this.

With kind regards,

Dexter23
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on June 17, 2019, 06:01:52 pm
Does it work when you use pattern trigger?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on June 17, 2019, 06:42:15 pm
Hello,

as I think the following is also valid for RTB2K and RTM3k I post the problem here.

If I use hires and save the data with "Save/Load" than i got real 16 bit.
But if I activate a logic channel I got only 10 bit.
the lower 6 bit in the 16 bit sample is always 0.

Best regards
egonotto
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on June 17, 2019, 07:19:36 pm
Hello Dexter23,

perhaps the threshold is wrong because the amplitude is too low?
Can you proof this.

Best regards
egonotto
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on June 17, 2019, 07:38:23 pm
Hello Peter,

thanks for the answer. I don't notice this.

I see two reasons.

1. They have not enough memory.

2. The sample rate with hires fits not with the sample rate of the digital channel.

In Peak Detect Mode the number of segments goes also down.


If you connect your RTB2k with USB you could see at
Computer\Rohde&Schwarz RTB????\Live Data\Channel\Acquisition Memory
and
Computer\Rohde&Schwarz RTA????\Live Data\Logic\Acquisition Memory
For every active channel there are big files in this directory.

Best regards
egonotto


 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: genghisnico13 on June 17, 2019, 07:46:24 pm
Hello fellow RTB2004 users,

I'm not sure if my problem with this scope is a bug or user error, please help me to figure this out.

I can't get my scope (RTB2004 firmware v2.202) to trigger on logic channels only (it works fine if i analize a protocol, but this is just some simple digital signal).

For my current setup i only use the logic channels D0...D7 (no analog)
- D0 is connected to a low frequency (250Hz) 3.3V logic signal
- D1 is connected to a 500Hz logic signal
- The trigger is setup is set to Edge, rising edge, D1 (or D0 makes no difference), Threshold 1.4V, hold off is off
I am unable to get the scope to (normal) trigger on this signal.

When i lower the frequency of my signal to lets say 1hz i see the arrows (next to D7-0 channel indicator at the bottom of the screen) for channel 0 and 1 change with my signal, so it is being read, but no trigger event occurs.

I can get a display when i force trigger or in 'auto' mode but not in normal mode...

Can someone tell me what i do wrong or can somebody reproduce this problem.
Triggering on an analog input on the same signal works fine, also using only the digital inputs to read spi or I2C and triggering on it works fine (using protocol analyzer), but this 'simple' setup does not work (for me).

Please help me solve this.

With kind regards,

Dexter23
There is a bug I reported that if you have HF reject in an analog channel and then change to a digital one, this option remains active although you cannot disable it if you are triggering on a digital channel and this makes it impossible to trigger on a digital channel edge, since it's high frequency.
Hopefully the fix is coming in the next release, but in the meantime look at the triggers reject options with an analog channel as source and disable them before switching the source to a digital one.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Dexter23 on June 17, 2019, 10:08:09 pm
Thank you all for the fast reply.

It was the hf-reject on my analog channel that was the problem.
I would not have thought to look there, thank you.

With kind regards,

Dexter23
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on June 24, 2019, 04:16:51 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs replied.

Please also note - there is a time-limit on the free K36 upgrade for units with PK1 or the original launch editions.  The time limit is through July 31, 2019. After that, we'll no longer upgrade it for free.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: riyadh144 on June 25, 2019, 03:10:21 am
Hi,

How can I get the upgrades for RTB2004?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on June 25, 2019, 12:41:42 pm
Hi,

How can I get the upgrades for RTB2004?
Hi - please send me a PM and I'll give you the instructions.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on June 25, 2019, 12:42:19 pm
Hi Everyone - All PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on June 26, 2019, 09:03:17 am
Hi Folks - all PMs replied.

Please also note - there is a time-limit on the free K36 upgrade for units with PK1 or the original launch editions.  The time limit is through July 31, 2019. After that, we'll no longer upgrade it for free.

-Rich

Oh, wow, I have RTB2002 with PK1 and no K36.
Please, Rich, can you send me the instructions to get the free K36 upgrade?
Thanks
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on June 26, 2019, 04:03:07 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on June 27, 2019, 08:04:01 pm
Hi Folks - All PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mahi on July 03, 2019, 08:44:26 am
Please also note - there is a time-limit on the free K36 upgrade for units with PK1 or the original launch editions.  The time limit is through July 31, 2019. After that, we'll no longer upgrade it for free.

Does this also apply to the current COM bundle promotions, like the RTB2K-COM4? Or does apply only to older units that were purchased with COM2/COM4/PK1 before K36 was released?

If I purchase the RTB2K-COM4 after July 31 (the promotion runs until the end of the year), is K36 still included?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on July 06, 2019, 02:21:32 am
Please also note - there is a time-limit on the free K36 upgrade for units with PK1 or the original launch editions.  The time limit is through July 31, 2019. After that, we'll no longer upgrade it for free.

Does this also apply to the current COM bundle promotions, like the RTB2K-COM4? Or does apply only to older units that were purchased with COM2/COM4/PK1 before K36 was released?

If I purchase the RTB2K-COM4 after July 31 (the promotion runs until the end of the year), is K36 still included?
Hi Mahi - sorry for the slow reply. K36 is part of the current COM models (where available - the RTH doesn’t have it), as well as current PK1 purchases since K36 was introduced. My comment in red is just for people that bought a launch edition, COM model or PK1 before K36 was introduced. We wanted to give a free upgrade to those people.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mubes on July 08, 2019, 03:33:59 pm
Now being the proud owner of a RTB2K as part of the bundle deal (_HIGHLY_ recommend Batronix, they went well beyond the call of duty) I'm just starting to get my arms around it.

Having a slight problem with the network connection at GbE speed (since I want to help get Sigrok integrated with it...Sigrok and RTB2K will make a killer combination).

With my DLink switch it won't stay connected. Since I happen to have a GbE multi-port cable modem sat next to that I thought I'd try that too. With the CM I generally get a reliable link but on boot it has difficulty establishing the link in the first place. Have tried regular network cables and some decent quality CAT-6 with similar results.

I'm figuring that GbE is a bit of an edge case at the moment so it's possible it's not as well shaken through in the firmware rather than being a hardware problem - has anyone else experienced any issues with it?

Edit: just left a flood ping running for a while, don't think there's a phy-level issue;

$ sudo ping -f 172.26.172.124
PING 172.26.172.124 (172.26.172.124) 56(84) bytes of data.
^C
--- 172.26.172.124 ping statistics ---
4193497 packets transmitted, 4193497 received, 0% packet loss, time 1193843ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.105/0.274/40.394/0.126 ms, pipe 3, ipg/ewma 0.284/0.290 ms


Regards

DAVE

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JxR on July 08, 2019, 03:54:27 pm
I'm figuring that GbE is a bit of an edge case at the moment so it's possible it's not as well shaken through in the firmware rather than being a hardware problem - has anyone else experienced any issues with it?

Having had the scope for over 2 years now, I can say with confidence that this has never been an issue with any  firmware I have used. 

If you are 100% sure about your cable and your setup, then as a last resort I would turn off every single physical device you have that connects to the network.  Only after every single device, router, switch, and modem has been turned off: then  start turning them back on. This will force the ARP tables to be cleared and rebuilt.  It is essential that every single device be turned  off, since all  of them  will store their own tables, and any one of them could be causing the problem (if that is the problem).  Sometimes weird things like this problems  like this can occur, especially if something else used to be plugged into the same port where the RTB2004 now resides.

Another good candidate to verify  is that the IP address is not the same for any two devices.  It would probably be a good idea to switch the RTB2004 over to a port on the switch that is known to be good (after you turn everything off, but before you turn them back on).  That will help rule out that one port on your switch the RTB2004 is currently using.

Also, try swapping the cable out for a known good cable another device is already using.  If you don't have the equipment to test the cable you honestly have no idea if the cable works or not, so using a known good one is essential.

Obviously there could technically be something physically wrong with the RTB2004 hardware port, but it is much safer to assume that it is fine and the problem is in your network.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on July 08, 2019, 04:01:00 pm
I agree. It is probably a bad cable and the consumer level D-link equipment isn't the best network equipment out there. Also note that the RTB2000 can't fill the Gbit ethernet bandwidth at all. 100Mbit is more than enough. Early on in this thread some people did some benchmark testing.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mubes on July 08, 2019, 04:46:49 pm
I agree. It is probably a bad cable and the consumer level D-link equipment isn't the best network equipment out there. Also note that the RTB2000 can't fill the Gbit ethernet bandwidth at all. 100Mbit is more than enough. Early on in this thread some people did some benchmark testing.

The switch is a DGS-1210-24 so it's not from their consumer stuff...indeed, it's served well for a very large number of years. However, I agree that it's much more likely to be a problem on my network, especially given that data are transiting properly once is link is up. It does, however, look like more of a negotiation problem than an operational one....so perhaps this switch is just too long in the tooth nowadays. Its from the early days of GbE and hasn't had a firmware update since 2013.

  ID    Time    Log Description    Severity
  1     Nov 7 01:29:31 2009    port 11 link down    info
  2     Nov 7 01:29:28 2009    Port 11 link up, 1Gbps FULL duplex    info
  13    Nov 7 01:28:59 2009    port 11 link down    info
  15    Nov 7 01:28:56 2009    Port 11 link up, 1Gbps FULL duplex    info


'scuse the timestamps, this thing isn't on an external network and can't get a time fix (refer to previous point about f/w updates). Getting the same on multiple ports with multiple cables, and even with fixed addressing rather than dhcp.

The beauty of this thing being R&S is that I don't have to stress too much - even if it is a h/w problem I'm confident they'll sort it whenever I'm ready....but it's good to know that there's no known fragility in the n/w stack.

EDIT: Found it...the scope doesn't like power saving mode on at the switch ports. No idea why, but everything seems stable at GbE now. Thanks for the sounding board!

DAVE
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on July 09, 2019, 05:29:00 pm
Hi Folks - all PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on July 18, 2019, 06:22:01 pm
Hi Folks - All PMs replied. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Kjelt on July 21, 2019, 07:18:34 pm
Quick question , what is the difference exactly between the RTB2k-COM2 and COM4 special promotion offers except the two extra channels?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on July 21, 2019, 09:01:13 pm
AFAIK, nothing.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Kjelt on July 21, 2019, 09:40:50 pm
That would be great, someone was doubting if the com2 would also have the bode plot ability, can someone with a com2 confirm that it has this option ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on July 22, 2019, 12:57:44 am
That would be great, someone was doubting if the com2 would also have the bode plot ability, can someone with a com2 confirm that it has this option ?
Yes, the COM2 can handle K36 as well.  But with the current promotion you're better off ordering the COM4 - it's cheaper and you'll get the 4-channels.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Kjelt on July 22, 2019, 07:13:33 am
Oh darn, the com2 promotion is only the rtc1k version  :(
The com4 is way over my budget..... have to let the thought go then  :'(
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on July 22, 2019, 11:08:12 am
As someone who bought the RTB2K-COM4 at regular price (with an edu discount): it's well worth the money. Seriously consider buying it because it's money well spent.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on July 22, 2019, 04:01:31 pm
Hi Folks - I started a Tips n Tricks thread on the RTB2000/RTM3000/RTA4000 and will build it out as I get more time:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tips-and-tricks-rs-rtb2000rtm3000rta4000/msg2563692/#msg2563692 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tips-and-tricks-rs-rtb2000rtm3000rta4000/msg2563692/#msg2563692)

Feel free to add your own tips n tricks as well.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on July 30, 2019, 02:34:14 am
Hi Folks - all PMs replied.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mubes on August 03, 2019, 10:46:08 pm
@Rich (+anyone else that's interested),

Is there any chance of getting the UART decode maximum baudrate increased?  It's really the only significant limitation I've bumped into so far in comparison to my MSO4024 daily driver. 3MBaud is a little but low - even protocols like BT HCI H4 run at 4MBaud. Your 'competition' seem to have max limits of 10MBaud...any improvement on the 3 would be handy, and more the better, but if you can get to 12MBaud that's a pretty significant waypoint because it's the max speed of a FTDI USB async adaptor.

I know I'm asking a lot, and the constraint may well be set in hardware, but I figure there's nothing to be lost by asking...even if the higher baudrates have reduced functionality.

Regards
DAVE
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on August 05, 2019, 01:40:51 am
Someone asked about this on email, the RTC1002 is on sale:
300MHz, mixed signal with function gen for $1500
https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTC1K-COM2/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTC1K-COM2/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/)

Didnt' know about this model, looks like a replacement for the Hameg.
Value for money in that 300MHz space?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: DIPLover on August 05, 2019, 07:15:08 pm
Someone asked about this on email, the RTC1002 is on sale:
300MHz, mixed signal with function gen for $1500
https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTC1K-COM2/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTC1K-COM2/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/)

Didnt' know about this model, looks like a replacement for the Hameg.
Value for money in that 300MHz space?
Just saw this model today and I am quite interested, but I haven't found any good reviews yet. Looks like an update to the HMO1202 Dave reviewed a few years back. If anybody found a good teardown, please post.

IIRC the old one had amazing FFT controls and responsiveness for the time in this market segment, I wonder if that still holds.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: DIPLover on August 05, 2019, 08:33:14 pm
After comparing both manuals extensively, this looks like a reskin of the HMO1202.
Specs are almost identical, some differences (some subtle, some not) :

HMO1202 had switchable 50ohm input. This is not present on RTC1000.
Input impedance was 1Mohm with 16pF +- 2pF on HMO, now 1Mohm with 14pF +- 2pF on RTC.

Haven't found anything else yet.
HMO was made in Czech Republic, can't find if that's still true for RTC.

Maybe I'm old, but I preferred the old look.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on August 06, 2019, 07:25:36 pm
@Rich (+anyone else that's interested),

Is there any chance of getting the UART decode maximum baudrate increased?  It's really the only significant limitation I've bumped into so far in comparison to my MSO4024 daily driver. 3MBaud is a little but low - even protocols like BT HCI H4 run at 4MBaud. Your 'competition' seem to have max limits of 10MBaud...any improvement on the 3 would be handy, and more the better, but if you can get to 12MBaud that's a pretty significant waypoint because it's the max speed of a FTDI USB async adaptor.

I know I'm asking a lot, and the constraint may well be set in hardware, but I figure there's nothing to be lost by asking...even if the higher baudrates have reduced functionality.

Regards
DAVE
Hi Dave - I'll ping the team, but I think it is unlikely on the RTB2000.  I'll let you know ASAP.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on August 06, 2019, 07:41:00 pm
Just FYI - for those interested, we're offering a free webinar on Power Integrity on August 15th.  If you have designs with FPGAs, ASICs, DRAMs, etc in it, you've probably found yourself measuring power rails, which is often called "analyzing power integrity". 

My coworker, Joel Woodward, will be presenting it.  Joel is awesome - super knowledgeable and quite interesting to listen to.  He has a knack for boiling complicated subjects down.  I worked with him at HPAK for years.  He was the product planner on the Infiniium S-Series, InfiniiVision 7000 and is a guru in Power Integrity.  He's currently the lead product planner for Rohde & Schwarz scopes.  Very sharp guy.

More details here (and to register):

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/contests/free-webinar-on-power-integrity/new/#new (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/contests/free-webinar-on-power-integrity/new/#new)

Let me know if you have any questions.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on August 07, 2019, 07:05:59 pm
@Rich (+anyone else that's interested),

Is there any chance of getting the UART decode maximum baudrate increased?  It's really the only significant limitation I've bumped into so far in comparison to my MSO4024 daily driver. 3MBaud is a little but low - even protocols like BT HCI H4 run at 4MBaud. Your 'competition' seem to have max limits of 10MBaud...any improvement on the 3 would be handy, and more the better, but if you can get to 12MBaud that's a pretty significant waypoint because it's the max speed of a FTDI USB async adaptor.

I know I'm asking a lot, and the constraint may well be set in hardware, but I figure there's nothing to be lost by asking...even if the higher baudrates have reduced functionality.

Regards
DAVE
As I was afraid, it's a limitation in the FPGA.  We can set up higher baud rates, but only in rough steps that would be unusual and likely not helpful.  Sorry I don't have better news.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on August 07, 2019, 08:09:36 pm
Rough steps like 4,6,8 etc. Would be useful
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: DIPLover on August 10, 2019, 11:32:55 am
I received yesterday my new RTC1K-COM2 package. I will post a review in a new thread next week. Is there a specific test you guys would be interested in? So far it seems identical to the HMO1202 Dave tore down in EEVBLOG #842. (Minus 50ohm input, sadly)

Price was $1536 for 300MHz bandwidth, 2 analog + 8 digital channels with logic probe and all serial decoders. This is about 1/3 the price of the equivalent Keysight (MSOX2022A) and in the same ballpark as the Rigol MSO2302A and Siglent SDS2352X-E similarly configured.

It is TINY and the UI is fantastic, so far I am happy.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on August 11, 2019, 12:01:00 pm
I received yesterday my new RTC1K-COM2 package. I will post a review in a new thread next week. Is there a specific test you guys would be interested in? So far it seems identical to the HMO1202 Dave tore down in EEVBLOG #842. (Minus 50ohm input, sadly)
Price was $1536 for 300MHz bandwidth, 2 analog + 8 digital channels with logic probe and all serial decoders. This is about 1/3 the price of the equivalent Keysight (MSOX2022A) and in the same ballpark as the Rigol MSO2302A and Siglent SDS2352X-E similarly configured.
It is TINY and the UI is fantastic, so far I am happy.

Does it still have the practically silent fan?
My Hameg was so silent I had no idea is had a fan until I tore it apart.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: DIPLover on August 11, 2019, 08:21:48 pm

Does it still have the practically silent fan?
My Hameg was so silent I had no idea is had a fan until I tore it apart.

Yes it is still practically silent. Quieter than anything else I have had in the lab. If I put my ear directly over the fan when I turn the scope on I can hear it spin up (a faint accelerating tick tick tick), then about 3 seconds later, nothing.

There is a good amount of heat coming from the vents at the top left when it's been on for a while so that fan is pushing some air through it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Harjit on August 12, 2019, 05:24:47 am
@DIPLover, is this a RTB2002/4? I have a RTB2004 and the fan is very loud.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on August 12, 2019, 05:57:45 am
@DIPLover, is this a RTB2002/4? I have a RTB2004 and the fan is very loud.

You should get that checked. My RTB is quiet enough I never hear it. I believe he was talking about an RTC though.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on August 12, 2019, 08:22:27 am
I also have a RTB and it's dead silent.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: DIPLover on August 12, 2019, 11:09:57 am
@DIPLover, is this a RTB2002/4? I have a RTB2004 and the fan is very loud.

It’s the RTC model. The datasheet gives a maximum noise level of 30.4 dB(A) @ 0.3 meter (1 foot). The noise floor in my basement lab with all the computers off and the windows closed is 28 dB(A) and I can’t hear it, even when concentrating.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on September 16, 2019, 10:43:22 pm
Is there anything I can do to change the record length in FFT mode to be smaller? Here's why:

I often use the FFT function (love the new improvements) with relatively low frequency spans < 100kHz (think audio frequencies), and then the fixed record size quickly becomes annoying.

For example, looking at a 24kHz span with a 10Hz resolution bandwidth, the resulting window size is only 2400 points, which at the proper Nyquist rate of 48kHz (which the scope chooses) takes 100ms to capture. (The scope actually chooses a different width depending on the chosen windowing function, e.g. 89.04ms for a rectangular window, but I suspect the effective RBW depends on that function.)

However, the fixed record size of 131kSamples (2^17) is much larger than that, taking around 2.7 seconds to fill up at 48kHz. If I choose a lower span or a better RBW, it can get into tens of seconds per update.

In the screenshot, you can see that the window is pretty small in comparison to the record. The good thing is that I can stop the acquisition and move the window around those 2.7s to look at the spectrum at different times, or change the RBW without recapturing, but most of the time I'd rather have the quickest update rate possible, especially for fast-changing signals.

Interestingly, it seems that the scope would do the right thing in Roll mode, but then it does not display the FFT at all anymore (I suspect because there is no actual trigger).
I have just run into this myself, previously had been using large FFT spans (where the update rate is fine) but now I'm trying to measure a changing signal with <10kHz spans and it is _extremely_ annoying and difficult to use in an interactive fashion due to the long acquisition time even when using a modest number of samples.

Rich - if you could pass on this issue (maybe with the suggestion to allow the user to toggle full/limited record sizes) then that would be much appreciated - it's bad enough that I'm stuck using other instruments for this job, where I'd like to be using the (otherwise great) FFT function!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on September 17, 2019, 02:21:51 pm
Is there anything I can do to change the record length in FFT mode to be smaller? Here's why:

I often use the FFT function (love the new improvements) with relatively low frequency spans < 100kHz (think audio frequencies), and then the fixed record size quickly becomes annoying.

For example, looking at a 24kHz span with a 10Hz resolution bandwidth, the resulting window size is only 2400 points, which at the proper Nyquist rate of 48kHz (which the scope chooses) takes 100ms to capture. (The scope actually chooses a different width depending on the chosen windowing function, e.g. 89.04ms for a rectangular window, but I suspect the effective RBW depends on that function.)

However, the fixed record size of 131kSamples (2^17) is much larger than that, taking around 2.7 seconds to fill up at 48kHz. If I choose a lower span or a better RBW, it can get into tens of seconds per update.

In the screenshot, you can see that the window is pretty small in comparison to the record. The good thing is that I can stop the acquisition and move the window around those 2.7s to look at the spectrum at different times, or change the RBW without recapturing, but most of the time I'd rather have the quickest update rate possible, especially for fast-changing signals.

Interestingly, it seems that the scope would do the right thing in Roll mode, but then it does not display the FFT at all anymore (I suspect because there is no actual trigger).
I have just run into this myself, previously had been using large FFT spans (where the update rate is fine) but now I'm trying to measure a changing signal with <10kHz spans and it is _extremely_ annoying and difficult to use in an interactive fashion due to the long acquisition time even when using a modest number of samples.

Rich - if you could pass on this issue (maybe with the suggestion to allow the user to toggle full/limited record sizes) then that would be much appreciated - it's bad enough that I'm stuck using other instruments for this job, where I'd like to be using the (otherwise great) FFT function!
I'll pass this on.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on September 17, 2019, 09:52:05 pm
Thanks Rich.
Ideally if non-131k record lengths are possible (as a toggle or otherwise) it would allow both <131k points (for fast updates at low frequencies, at the expense of fewer FFT points/higher RBW) and >131k points (to allow a longer record to be captured, with FFT performed on a chosen subset of up to 131k points, such as is currently possible with the movable window when using non-maximum RBW). I hope this makes sense!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ppeterl on September 18, 2019, 08:43:03 pm
Is there anything I can do to change the record length in FFT mode to be smaller? Here's why:

I often use the FFT function (love the new improvements) with relatively low frequency spans < 100kHz (think audio frequencies), and then the fixed record size quickly becomes annoying.

For example, looking at a 24kHz span with a 10Hz resolution bandwidth, the resulting window size is only 2400 points, which at the proper Nyquist rate of 48kHz (which the scope chooses) takes 100ms to capture. (The scope actually chooses a different width depending on the chosen windowing function, e.g. 89.04ms for a rectangular window, but I suspect the effective RBW depends on that function.)

However, the fixed record size of 131kSamples (2^17) is much larger than that, taking around 2.7 seconds to fill up at 48kHz. If I choose a lower span or a better RBW, it can get into tens of seconds per update.

In the screenshot, you can see that the window is pretty small in comparison to the record. The good thing is that I can stop the acquisition and move the window around those 2.7s to look at the spectrum at different times, or change the RBW without recapturing, but most of the time I'd rather have the quickest update rate possible, especially for fast-changing signals.

Interestingly, it seems that the scope would do the right thing in Roll mode, but then it does not display the FFT at all anymore (I suspect because there is no actual trigger).

I second this, and the posts above. Since the latest update, the FFT have turned more or less useless for audio - which is my primary use case. @Rich if you're listening, the scope is perfectly capable of providing great FFT for audio use, i.e below 50 kz. For example, Youtuber johnaudiotech use an obsolete Rigol scope to measure amplifiers:

https://youtu.be/b_PnT7lq9Xg?t=774 (https://youtu.be/b_PnT7lq9Xg?t=774)

(I think that's an 1052E). Surely the R&S RTB2k have the capabilities to measure up to that frame rate --- Challenge you're techs with this, and they'll fix it!

--/Peter
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 20, 2019, 04:52:02 pm
Just checking if this is intended behaviour - I can save a waveform file, but there seems to be no option to re-load it. (RTM3004)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on September 20, 2019, 04:55:29 pm
Just checking if this is intended behaviour - I can save a waveform file, but there seems to be no option to re-load it. (RTM3004)
IIRC you should be able to load it into a reference memory trace. But it may depend on the format in which the waveform is saved.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 20, 2019, 06:30:43 pm
Just checking if this is intended behaviour - I can save a waveform file, but there seems to be no option to re-load it. (RTM3004)
IIRC you should be able to load it into a reference memory trace. But it may depend on the format in which the waveform is saved.
No - that only allows loading CSV files. Also probably not useful if you want to look at decodes on a stored trace
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on September 20, 2019, 06:47:18 pm
Just checking if this is intended behaviour - I can save a waveform file, but there seems to be no option to re-load it. (RTM3004)
IIRC you should be able to load it into a reference memory trace. But it may depend on the format in which the waveform is saved.
No - that only allows loading CSV files. Also probably not useful if you want to look at decodes on a stored trace
Well, if you save as CSV then you should be able to load it. But that does limit the possibilities. Decoding a stored trace is a rare feature -if it even exists- on an oscilloscope. On the RTM3004 the reference traces are decimated versions of the original trace anyway and I guess the same is true for the RTB2004; it would be difficult to deal with references traces at the full memory depth.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on September 20, 2019, 10:52:28 pm
Decoding a stored trace is a rare feature -if it even exists- on an oscilloscope.
What do you mean ? That is a normal thing for Picoscope. That was one of few main reasons for me to get it.
And every scope that decodes in software can do that trivially if you can load trace. Load trace and enable decode.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on September 20, 2019, 11:08:27 pm
I wouldn't say that every scope can do this but AFAIK all real LeCroys of the last ten years or so can save and restore the complete scope state including trace data and allow you to work with it after restoring as if the waveform was just captured. I used that on the WaveRunner 6Zi in 2012 or so but AFAIK this feature even exists in the WaveSurfer 3000 ("LabNotebooks").
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on September 20, 2019, 11:51:19 pm
These two are probably the only exceptions then.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 21, 2019, 09:05:44 am
It doesn't seem to me to unreasonable to want to save & restore the exact scope state, more so with the large memories of modern scopes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Harjit on September 24, 2019, 04:39:36 pm
Scope: RTB2004
FW: Current - sorry, I deleted the info. by mistake and am not near the scope
Bug: Horizontal setting doesn't follow zoom factor

Steps:

Expect: Start zooming from the "zoomed" in horizontal scale or closest "normal" value. Where "normal" means what you would get if you were using the horizontal rotary switch.
Observed behavior: Horizontal scale starts at 20microseconds or some such non-related value

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Harjit on September 24, 2019, 04:45:29 pm
Scope: RTB2004
FW: Current
Enhancement request: During zoom, show relative horizontal scale along with absolute value

When using the scope in non-zoom mode, the trigger point has a horizontal value of zero and every vertical graticule is marked with the relative time offset from the trigger point.

I was looking at a 10 second capture and I was zoomed into an area around eight seconds. The vertical graticules were 8.aaaa, 8.bbbb, 8.cccc, etc.

It was not fun to do the math or turn on the cursors to measure the time between events.

If there was an additional row that showed the delta time between the graticules, it would have made life a lot easier.

As I write this, I realize that it may be marginally helpful. Perhaps it is something the R&S team can play with to see if there is a way to do horizontal timing estimations easier when using zoom.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: genghisnico13 on September 25, 2019, 10:54:59 pm
Hi Rich, I have a couple of suggestions and Bugs:

In some cases changing the Probe Factor changes HW gain (even when changing in 10^n steps) and because of this the offset can be altered also, for example when changing from 0.1:1 to 10k:1 it does it, but when changing from 1:1 to 10k:1 it doesn't. The expected behavior by me would be to still see the waveform exactly the same, but have all vertical numbers scaled accordingly. Also is ti possible to extend the Probe Factor range to 1M:1?

X-Y: I understand is not a mode that is used that often so probably not a priority, but would it be possible to use a Math channel as source?
Could Dy/Dx be added to cursors for example to measure Resistance in a I-V plot.
There is some weird behavior with High Resolution Enabled on timebases longer than 50ms/div included, it makes a couple of incomplete acquisitions and then glitches out and repeats the cycle, a couple of incomplete acquisitions and a glitched one.
Channel 1 is always shown in the CH1-t plot even when disabled(and even when being used as Y), not a big deal(at all), but different from the behavior of the other channels.
Limited resolution in the readout of cursors of y channels when using high probe factors like 800V/A, when moving the cursors you get the expected resolution in the popup readout(ex. 1.44uA), but not in the cursors band/section(Y1,Y2,DY)(ex. 1uA).

Digital Channels: Would it be possible to have a different color for 1 and 0? sometimes is not that easy to figure out fast, if you don't have a transition on screen.

FFT: Would it be possible to have the scope store the "Timebase" setting when enabling FFT and recall it after disabling it? the same with cursors position, source and type.
When setting a center frequency lower than the span/2 an error is displayed, wouldn't it be better to adjust the span to the requested center frequency*2?
As others have mentioned I would also like to have at least 1 more variable to control the acquisition time or samplerate, the function that the timebase used to do before the FFT change. in  my case I wanted to look at a portion of the spectrum but because I couldn't control the samplerate I had to deal with aliasing.
Maybe to make use of the encoder buttons in this mode you could store the current center frequency by pushing and holding the horizontal position encoder for 0.5-1 sec and if you then move the center you can recall it by pushing the encoder without holding it. the same with the Vertical position/Reference level., so it can act similar to the normal scope mode. perhaps could be applied to Bode too.

Measurements: opening the measurement type screen and then changing measurement number doesn't closes the meas. type screen or makes it change to the currently selected meas. number, so when you select a type of meas. you are modifying the previous meas. number.

Bode: Would it be possible to continue sub-dividing horizontally when zooming in? Right now you don't get a horizontal grid when you are between the Decade ticks(ex. 1.0-1.1kHz).
I would like to maybe set the number of points between start and stop frequencies, just because sometimes 500 points per decade isn't enough when you are only interested in small spans. The over-engineered solution could be to use something similar to amplitude profile, but for points per decade, allowing you to have a lot of points only in the areas of interest (this would be awesome).
Would it be possible to add an X in the Bode Tab to exit, similar to Measurements, statistics and Bus table tabs?(not a big deal)
Maybe it is by design, but when selecting the number of points per decade the menu doesn't close immediately when you select the number, requiring a double touch.
When scrolling lists of values (Bus table, Bode,etc) isn't the direction inverted? technically you could use both directions, but Clockwise to go down makes more sense because you are also scrolling through the points on the waveform to the right while you go down the table. I guess in the Bus table it makes sense because the waveform is moving to the left?

I understand this is unlikely, but would math with measurements be out of the question? ex. VRMS-CH1/VRMS-Ch2.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on September 26, 2019, 12:07:42 am
Bode: Would it be possible to continue sub-dividing horizontally when zooming in? Right now you don't get a horizontal grid when you are between the Decade ticks(ex. 1.0-1.1kHz).
I would like to maybe set the number of points between start and stop frequencies, just because sometimes 500 points per decade isn't enough when you are only interested in small spans. The over-engineered solution could be to use something similar to amplitude profile, but for points per decade, allowing you to have a lot of points only in the areas of interest (this would be awesome).
I second this suggestion!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: casinada on September 27, 2019, 09:17:41 pm
A new version of the RTB2000 manual posted on Sept 24. It has 7 extra pages. I haven't had the time to look on what was added.  :)
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/manual/rtb2000/ (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/manual/rtb2000/)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on September 27, 2019, 09:26:31 pm
Maybe it's 7 pages about the limitations of uart decoder hard limit.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on September 27, 2019, 09:58:57 pm
No changes that I can see, just formatting in the SCPI section.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on September 28, 2019, 11:26:48 pm
@Rich, would it be possible to have more than 500pt/dec for the bode plot mode? I'm measuring ultrasonic oscillators and sometimes even 500pt/dec isn't enough.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on October 08, 2019, 04:04:01 pm
@Rich, would it be possible to have more than 500pt/dec for the bode plot mode? I'm measuring ultrasonic oscillators and sometimes even 500pt/dec isn't enough.
Hi KaneTW - sorry I've been so slow to respond - it's been a crazy few weeks!  I'll submit the request.   :-+

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nictinkers on October 08, 2019, 08:11:03 pm
For those with one of these, on the scale of dysfunctional-pain-in-the-arse to buttered-toast, how do you rate the sigrok / PulseView integration? How fast can it stream and how big is the sample memory?

I'm strongly considering cracking opening my wallet for one of these but I don't think my electronics designs will be including fewer serial buses in the foreseeable future. Equipping a scope that has 20 input channels running at up to 2.5 GS/s with just two serial decoders limited to 3 MBit was not the best design tradeoff R&S has ever chosen.

I know post-analysis is not the same as decoding on the scope, mostly because of triggering but if I can slink off to PulseView when I need more than one UART or things a bit faster, I'd feel much better about buying the scope.

I actually think R&S should spend some engineer hours contributing comprehensive drivers to sigrok, and making any firmware changes to make it all rock solid - that would really make these killer scopes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 08, 2019, 08:50:58 pm
OTOH you have to think about the reality of needing UARTs at >3Mbit. A UART is usually clocked at 16x the bitrate so at 3Mbit this would be 48MHz. Also from my tests on the RTM3004 it turned out the protocol decoders in general work up to much higher speeds than specified. I wouldn't get so worked up about a limit you probably never run into.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: phs on October 09, 2019, 10:15:22 pm
Though I don't have time to get into this further at this point, hopefully the following observations can help folks who are considering purchasing these beautifully engineered instruments.  As most already know, it really is important to try before you buy if at all possible.  That’s the best way to make sure an instrument will be able to handle the tasks you need it to.  Also, you need to learn everything possible about whatever machine you end up with.  Test and verify every function you plan to use!!  Even the RTB2000 locks up on occasion, and has some difficult to understand bugs that are still being worked through here. 

After having used, primarily, a range of old Tek, Agilent and Rigol scopes prior to the release of the RTB2k, and having increased needs for additional MSO functions with decoding, the RTB seemed to be a potentially worthwhile addition to the stables.  Primarily, RS232 decoding was needed here (at speeds at least up to 10 Mbps), but recently I2S, I2C and SPI functionality are becoming necessary as well.  I can’t comment on I2S/I2C/SPI at this time, as I haven’t thoroughly tested these functions yet on the various scopes.  A Rigol MSO5000 is also being evaluated and compared to the RTB2k, in the hopes that it will meet current and future decoding needs that the RTB2k can’t handle at this time.

So, after having had great success over the years with the Rigol DS2000 and DS1000Z series, thanks to a rich feature-set that has been critical to solving many development and troubleshooting issues, despite various rather minor bugs, I was really looking forward to getting the RTB2k's for the logic and decoding features, especially.  At the time of the purchase, there wasn’t any way to “demo” a unit before buying, so it was understood that there was some risk involved – especially with such a new platform with limited details available.

Within minutes of firing one up though, I was quite surprised and disappointed to discover how limited the feature-set on the RTB was/is.  I had slightly expected that R&S would absolutely pack the thing full of advanced features – especially in comparison to the “lowly” Rigols.  At that time (launch edition period), there were only 4 math functions, and the wireless mouse functionality wasn’t there.  Thankfully at least those two issues were fixed subsequently, so hat's off to R&S for that, and also for adding the Bode analysis functionality. 

Somewhat sadly though, to this day, the DS2000 machines continue to get used over the RTB's because the faster decoding is necessary for so many of the projects here.  (Yes, there are LA’s used too, but most of the time it’s necessary/desirable to see the actual signal.) 

While the RTB2k is a great scope in so many ways, it turns out there are some surprising limitations for what is needed for the typical development projects done here -- especially for a scope in this price range.  Though every scope has limitations and bugs, at the end of the very long development day, the necessary features to get the job done are the priority.  Bugs, as long as there are workarounds, are just something you learn to deal with, and unless they cause lock-ups or crashes, aren’t understandable, or in some other way waste time, really aren't a big deal -- as long as you take the time to understand each bug and the workarounds.  A much bigger issue is if a critical feature is completely missing though, or if it’s so buggy that it’s not usable.

The biggest RTB2k features that are truly outstanding for typical use scenarios here, are:

o  The web interface (really well done, and the preferred way to “drive” the scope).

o  Capability to use a mouse for direct control (however, there are some UI improvements that would be welcome, to more easily enable driving the scope entirely by mouse).  One great advantage is no more achy arms from reaching out to the rack and twiddling knobs for hours on end, and also that the scope can be placed in more convenient locations.  Since you don't have to physically touch the instrument -- it can be controlled remotely.  And, a favorite here is the wireless Logitech M570, which now works very well, and allows the user to even stroll around while operating the instrument.  Brilliant!

Side note:  Personally, I still don’t like using touch screens on lab equipment for a variety of reasons, other than for entering lots of data, which isn’t too frequent with scopes in my experience.  Using a mouse is so much more convenient, if the UI has been designed properly.  And, when the scope can be placed close to the user, using knobs/buttons still works very well and can be pretty automatic, if the setup/layout is designed properly.

In the case of driving from the physical knob/button scope controls I personally find the Rigol MSO5000 intuitive and easy to use, and once you learn the menu structure (which doesn’t take long), it is an efficient and satisfying way to control the machine.  Even the touch buttons on the screen are quite snappy on the Rigol – It’s just when you want to drag stuff around on the screen via touch that it gets really laggy.  The RTB is laggy in this case, too – maybe not quite as much, though.  The Rigol also works very nicely with the Logitech M570 wireless mouse.

Driving the RTB from the physical controls seems less intuitive than the Rigol to me, but then I’ve been using the Rigols for many years.  It seems the RTB forces you to use the touch screen for some functions, rather than allowing full control via the buttons/knobs.  This is disappointing.  And not having separate vertical controls is also disappointing.

o  Useful (but very basic) functionality and display in FFT mode that visually makes it easy to see what's going on.

o  Decoding UI is really well done -- visually appealing and very functional.

o  Decoding is quite smooth, reasonably feature-rich (with the limited available protocols), despite the significant speed limitations.

o  Screen really is nice!  (Both size and image quality.)  Still, I don’t normally like using touch screens on lab equipment, except for typing in license codes or labels.  Dragging around waveforms on a scope lacks precision and is quite laggy in this case (also true of the Rigol MSO5000)

o  10-bit resolution.  Really not needed here for the vast majority of the time, but maybe it will be useful at some point.  Certainly nice to have, but not a critical function.

The most significant issues:

o  Significant (for purposes here) UART decode speed limitation.  And, it is a hard limitation as I recall, with no workarounds.  Beyond 3 Mbps, the decoding simply doesn't work.  Even the ancient Rigol DS2000 series decodes at least up to 8 Mbps -- although it can be a bit painful, it gets the job done, and it is used for this quite a lot, to this day.

o  Limited decoding types available.  No I2S, FlexRay, 1553B, if you might need any of these (MSO5000 has these available, DS2000 does not, and the DS2000 lacks LIN).  I2S, in addition to I2C and SPI, is becoming more important for projects here.  And, only about 1.5 channels of decoding at one time...ouch!  Even the DS2000 allows two fully independent TX/RX decoding channels.

o  No Nth-edge trigger mode.  This is something used a lot (on various Rigol scopes), and there is no runt trigger capability, though there is a search function for runt pulses, at least.  Also, a rather limited range of trigger options, in general, as compared to the Rigol DS2000 series, and even the lovely little DS1000Z (which has paid for itself many many times over the years).

o  No "Vertical Expansion" options, as in the Rigols.  This allows vertical zoom to operate referenced to the center of the screen, which makes it quite easy to precisely zoom in all the way to a DC-offset waveform (for checking power rail noise, for example) without having to use AC coupling.  This is used all the time here, and I haven't found a way to easily and precisely do this on the RTB2k's.  It's been mentioned before, but I don't believe this is likely even on the radar for future RTB "upgrades" for some reason.  Maybe I’m just missing something...

o  Mechanically horrible probes.  There is a lot of “stiction” that often prevents the probe “hooks” from properly grabbing a contact point, and it’s hard to rotate the probe clips on the probes easily.  They’re the worst feeling probes I’ve ever used.  Working with a limited budget here, this is quite disappointing, as buying a set of probes in addition to the relatively high cost of this scope, is quite painful.  Especially when the probes offered by much cheaper brands have far better mechanical operation and feel.

o  The Logic Probe cable is quite a crude design.  Certainly doesn’t facilitate unplugging from the scope with any confidence that there is not undue stress being placed on the cable.  For very little extra money, R&S could have designed a much better way to plug it into the scope.

Now, a Rigol MSO5000 is being evaluated, with very promising results so far, despite some minor bugs that remain, and the crude, by comparison, web interface, and slightly more limited mouse control.

Some apparent advantages of the MSO5000 (still testing, so these observations may or may not be true):

o  More comprehensive trigger functionality, including Nth edge and runt.

o  4 complete decode channels, each of which are spec’ed to operate at up to 20 Mbps (not tested here yet).

o  More decoding options, including i2s, which will be very useful if it works even reasonably well.

o  Vertical Expansion functionality.

o  Independent vertical channel controls.  Scope can be fully driven with knobs/buttons, without having to touch the screen.  Yay!!  And, to me the shape of the knobs on the Rigol feel a bit better than the RTB, but that’s likely a rather silly distinction.

o  Snappy UI (unless you’re dragging around waveforms via touchscreen or mouse).  Now, not as “snappy” as a current Keysight, no doubt, but certainly not unpleasant at all.  Running the FFT slows everything down, though, but this is also true for the RTB.  Love the operation of the knobs/buttons, and the UI is quite intuitive once you get used the the “Rigol” way.

o  Screen is plenty bright here –  pretty close to the RTB.

o  Two AWG’s (nice to have, I suppose, but not critical here).

o  HDMI port.  This is handy to have, despite and in addition to the Web UI, as it allows for another, larger, view of the scope screen.

o  Great feeling probes, as with all Rigol probes I’ve ever used.

o  Four FFTs available simultaneously.  Not sure how usable this is ultimately, but at least it’s there...

Some early observations of things I don’t like about the MSO5000:

o  FFT looks awful in comparison to the RTB unless you turn on “Color Grade”, and then it gets really slow, especially if you have all four FFTs running (which isn’t an option on the RTB).  It even looks bad compared to the DS2000, so I hope this is something Rigol addresses in the near future.

o  The decoding UI is rather crude looking compared to the RTB and lacks some of the clever UI design elements of the RTB.

o  The web UI is extremely crude in comparison to the RTB, and really needs further work.

o  The network settings are screwy and it’s hard to get static IP parameters locked in.  Luckily, Wireshark monitoring doesn’t show the instrument “phoning home” yet, despite the bizarre network settings behavior.  The online upgrade option has not been tested as this is a STUPID function for any networked lab instrument (security/privacy), and will never be used here.  Micsig is trying this BS approach to firmware updates, too.  UNACCEPTABLE!!

To wrap up – while I love much about the RTB series, it is pretty expensive for the functionality, as compared to the Rigols at least, and I’d guess as compared to Siglents and others, as well.  To get faster/additional decoding options with R&S, you’d have to pay for at least the next tier up and that’s well over $10k, I would guess. 

At this time it appears that even the low-end Rigols continue to offer critical functionality that the RTB lacks – which in this case keeps them in use here.  And, they are similarly enjoyable to operate in my experience – as long as you don’t have a passion for touch screen operation.  I also remain hopeful that the MSO5000 will fill in the rest of the functionality gaps.

So, none of this is intended to be comprehensive, and I’ve likely gotten things wrong.  It is just a basic, non-detailed overview of some of the observations based on use cases here, that I hope may be helpful to others.  I’m sure there are many folks who have requirements that are different, and for whom the RTB would be the perfect match.  If money becomes much less of a factor in the future, I will certainly be looking at some of the more advanced R&S scopes because there is so much about the RTB that I really do like.

One thing that makes the R&S products really stand out from the Rigol offerings is that Rich is here on this forum, actively listening to, and helping, users all of the time.  As for Rigol, hmm…..

Finally, and again –  don’t forget to play before you pay if at all possible, and make sure to learn the critical quirks of whatever instrument you end up with, lest you be tripped up for resting on your laurels.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 09, 2019, 10:32:49 pm
OTOH you have to think about the reality of needing UARTs at >3Mbit. A UART is usually clocked at 16x the bitrate so at 3Mbit this would be 48MHz. Also from my tests on the RTM3004 it turned out the protocol decoders in general work up to much higher speeds than specified. I wouldn't get so worked up about a limit you probably never run into.
I regularly use 4 and 6Mbaud. The decoder max baudrate is a hard limit-you can't enter a higher value.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JxR on October 09, 2019, 10:59:32 pm
how do you rate the sigrok / PulseView integration?

I don't see the RTB2004 on the supported hardware list, so I would assume integration is non-existent.

I actually think R&S should spend some engineer hours contributing comprehensive drivers to sigrok, and making any firmware changes to make it all rock solid - that would really make these killer scopes.

Is there honestly any other company that has personally contributed to this open source project?  Why would R&S spend the money and resources themselves, when they can devote it to projects that do make them money?

If this is a very important feature to you, then it sounds like you have the perfect motivation to make the required drivers yourself.  All it takes is one motivated individual to get the ball rolling.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nictinkers on October 10, 2019, 09:20:15 am
There have been a couple of mentions of people in this thread working on drivers:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg2297925/?topicseen#msg2297925 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg2297925/?topicseen#msg2297925)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg2534421/?topicseen#msg2534421 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg2534421/?topicseen#msg2534421)

And it looks like a patch was written last year:
https://sourceforge.net/p/sigrok/mailman/message/36471894/ (https://sourceforge.net/p/sigrok/mailman/message/36471894/)
But I don’t really know how to check if the patch was accepted, and without actually having a scope it’s hard to test if it works.

I spoke to a R&S rep at Electronex four weeks ago. He was polite, took my details and promised he’d organise a loan of a unit for testing but I think I made the mistake of being honest and admitting it was a personal purchase and that I didn’t represent a giant institution. Since then, emails sent to sales.australia@rohde-schwarz.com and to the distributor Rapid Tech have been met with stony silence. It is starting to be a factor against the purchase - if it takes weeks and weeks for them to bother getting back to me with a sales enquiry, heaven help me if I have an issue and need support.

Is there honestly any other company that has personally contributed to this open source project?  Why would R&S spend the money and resources themselves, when they can devote it to projects that do make them money?

We’ve all seen vendor-created companion software tools that are janky, Windows-only abandonware. I think R&S would do better than average if they rolled something themselves but I suspect it still wouldn’t be as good as leveraging the existing work (including great protocol decoders) in sigrok and PulseView. Internal engineers would have a major advantage to someone working on it from outside, as they have much better knowledge of the instrument’s communication protocol, and could even adjust the firmware if necessary to make it as good as it could be.

Would it make them money? I admit, its hard to say for sure. Does fixing bugs and adding firmware features for people after they’ve purchased their scope make the company money? I think verified, comprehensive sigrok / PulseView integration would ameliorate a weakness in the product and would increase its value to potential buyers.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 10, 2019, 09:43:27 am
OTOH you have to think about the reality of needing UARTs at >3Mbit. A UART is usually clocked at 16x the bitrate so at 3Mbit this would be 48MHz. Also from my tests on the RTM3004 it turned out the protocol decoders in general work up to much higher speeds than specified. I wouldn't get so worked up about a limit you probably never run into.
I regularly use 4 and 6Mbaud. The decoder max baudrate is a hard limit-you can't enter a higher value.
But having bitrates over 3Mbaud still is rare in general. But you are right that the upper limit is hard coded. I forgot that you need to set the baudrate for UART decoding.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on October 10, 2019, 11:44:26 am
But having bitrates over 3Mbaud still is rare in general. But you are right that the upper limit is hard coded. I forgot that you need to set the baudrate for UART decoding.
If you look at external interfaces its rare for a UART to run at anything like 3Mbps. However, if you look at device to device interfaces within boards you'll often find people cranking UARTs to the maximum they can get. Quite a few engineers looking at new devices show serious interest in how far the UARTs can be cranked.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 10, 2019, 12:30:56 pm
But having bitrates over 3Mbaud still is rare in general. But you are right that the upper limit is hard coded. I forgot that you need to set the baudrate for UART decoding.
If you look at external interfaces its rare for a UART to run at anything like 3Mbps. However, if you look at device to device interfaces within boards you'll often find people cranking UARTs to the maximum they can get. Quite a few engineers looking at new devices show serious interest in how far the UARTs can be cranked.
IMHO using an SPI port would be a much better solution for such a purpose. Often these have buffers and support 16 or even 32 bit words so less overhead for transmitting / receiving. Also the send / receive bitrates wouldn't have to be a very close match.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JxR on October 10, 2019, 01:50:13 pm
We’ve all seen vendor-created companion software tools that are janky, Windows-only abandonware. I think R&S would do better than average if they rolled something themselves but I suspect it still wouldn’t be as good as leveraging the existing work (including great protocol decoders) in sigrok and PulseView. Internal engineers would have a major advantage to someone working on it from outside, as they have much better knowledge of the instrument’s communication protocol, and could even adjust the firmware if necessary to make it as good as it could be.

Would it make them money? I admit, its hard to say for sure. Does fixing bugs and adding firmware features for people after they’ve purchased their scope make the company money? I think verified, comprehensive sigrok / PulseView integration would ameliorate a weakness in the product and would increase its value to potential buyers.

I can certainly understand the desire to have such integration.  But, you have to also understand that R&S doesn't provide any free protocol decoders in their oscilloscopes.  Every single one of them is sold as a license you have to purchase individually, or in a bundle for the RTB/RTM/RTA series.  Sigrok would be competing against their current licensing model. Providing free drivers for Sigrok would most likely hurt the sale of these licenses.

R&S currently doesn't even allow RTB owners to purchase the decoder licenses that are available in the RTM and RTA oscilloscopes (which I personally think is a mistake).  Sigrok provides these decoders, and others that even their more expensive models don't have.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 10, 2019, 03:26:35 pm
But having bitrates over 3Mbaud still is rare in general. But you are right that the upper limit is hard coded. I forgot that you need to set the baudrate for UART decoding.
If you look at external interfaces its rare for a UART to run at anything like 3Mbps. However, if you look at device to device interfaces within boards you'll often find people cranking UARTs to the maximum they can get. Quite a few engineers looking at new devices show serious interest in how far the UARTs can be cranked.r
Rs485 can easily do 10Mbaud. Another reason for fast uart rates is when sending realtime debug data out
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on October 10, 2019, 06:19:47 pm
I guess it's important to note that even before the current models, the RTM line was the entry level model for R&S. So I guess from their point of view, even the RTM3000 and RTA4000 scopes are still entry level compared to RTO/RTE and the RTP top models. So the RTB series is below that previous entry level and everything missing there is most probably missing deliberately - either to save costs or to for model distinction.
And yes, there is also the RTC line but this is clearly the bargain corner based on the remnant of Hameg.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nictinkers on October 11, 2019, 10:10:20 am
The RTB series may be (close to) entry level R&S oscilloscopes but they’re certainly not entry level relative to the oscilloscopes market more generally. Serial bus decoding is thankfully become an included feature even on base model oscilloscopes. I take the point it’s a paid option here but that might be out of an effort to provide institutional / education buyers with a poverty-pack stripped down RTB series option. Something like the test equipment equivalent of a fleet car.

The aggressive bundle pricing and discounts make me think the fully loaded COM2 / COM4 bundles are the default way the scopes should currently be considered. I hope those discounts continue beyond this year.

On closer inspection of the specification sheet, I now see that I misunderstood the decoder limitation. It’s only UART decoding that’s limited to 3 Mbit. I²C goes to 10 Mbit and SPI to 25 Mbit. CAN goes to 2 Mbit and LIN to 2.5 Mbit. That’s not as bad a situation as I thought, though still more limiting than I’d like.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: DeepLink on October 11, 2019, 11:41:24 am
A few months back I had the opportunity to try several scopes, including a R&S RTB2K
(very swift response from R&S Denmark, even though I’m a one-man company and only need 1 scope)
The RTB2K was considered only due to the COM4 bundle, otherwise it was to expensive, for me at least.
I also tried a Rigol MSO5000 and a Keysight MSOX3024T
I quickly ruled out the Rigol, due to the very dark screen and the button layout, which I find unintuitive, and the Keysight was turned down due to pricing (and serial decodes cost almost as much as the scope itself)
The RTB2K was pleasant to use, but also had some issues
Screen
-   Large, Hi-res, crisp and bright (one of the best I seen)
-   Glossy screen, which I don’t like as there are to much reflection (can be solved with a matte screen protector)
Probes
-   Very poor, look like some thing left over from Hameg. The RTB2K deserves something better (and without the x1/x10 switch)
-   The BNC doesn’t have automatic recognition of 10x probes (the ring around the BNC is missing)
I do have some very nice Tek and HP probes and as the BNC itself is recessed into the front so some Agilent probes can’t be used. As I only use x10 probes or Coax, it’s annoying to manually switch between x10 and x1

Buttons
-   Nice layout, though I prefer individual controls for each vertical channel
-   Nice with color coding and adjustable light level

Timebase
-   RTB2K uses 1-2-5 scheme, which is standard. But below 200ns, it switches between 10ns, 20ns, 40ns 80 ns & 200ns. I can’t find the explanation for this

So for now I’m still using my trusty old HP 54645D (running +20 years) and a ScanaQuad for bus decoding
Still looking for a replacement…
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on October 11, 2019, 06:07:33 pm
Timebase
-   RTB2K uses 1-2-5 scheme, which is standard. But below 200ns, it switches between 10ns, 20ns, 40ns 80 ns & 200ns. I can’t find the explanation

I believe this came up in the thread earlier, but I can't remember the exact reason.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JxR on October 11, 2019, 06:13:06 pm
Timebase
-   RTB2K uses 1-2-5 scheme, which is standard. But below 200ns, it switches between 10ns, 20ns, 40ns 80 ns & 200ns. I can’t find the explanation

I believe this came up in the thread earlier, but I can't remember the exact reason.

Rich explained it here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg1967450/#msg1967450 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg1967450/#msg1967450)

and here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on October 20, 2019, 12:08:55 am
Another feature request: Peak-to-peak measurements using the DVM and more than one counter.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JxR on October 25, 2019, 11:15:27 pm
So I turned on my scope today and there was a DC offset on all channels :o.  Tried to perform the built in alignment and it failed. My unit is one of the original promotion scopes.

R&S has already issued me an RMA for under warranty repair and it is about to be sent out.  Spoke with Rich as well and he offered to expedite getting a replacement or a loaner, which is fantastic since I'm in the middle of some projects.  Big thank you to Rich again for looking out for the little guys.  Your help is very much appreciated, and the support we receive from you is incredible as always!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on October 26, 2019, 07:53:43 am
I know this is a bit OT. I built a small Tektronix demo board tonight and tested it. I mostly did this to show the next owner of the 475A what sort of silly things he can do his current siglent might have a tough time with. After I tried the Tek I figured why not try the RTB as well. I'd say it works just fine. I haven't tested pong though as the pots haven't arrived yet. I doubt it'll be as responsive as the Tek, probably not even playable.

EDIT: I also tried a Keysight U1620A and that one was totally useless. I might retry tomorrow since I actually couldn't even begin to make anything out.

EDIT2: You can play pong on the RTB. It's really hard to get a video of it though trying to record and control two paddles.

EDIT 3: Sort of got the Keysight to work. Required high res and infinite persistence. Could have got it to fill in really well but the chip routinely shifts the image to prevent burn in.

EDIT 4: I tried a Micsig TO1152 and it sort of works but the lack of fine vertical controls kills it. The resolution is also pretty low so details are poor. I'm not sure exactly how the x-y mode works but it does seem to use some form of decimated data as cutting memory doesn't affect the image much.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on October 26, 2019, 09:34:54 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw1uJrd-02I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw1uJrd-02I)

Ok I was able to make a video of pong/table tennis. Apologies in advance for the music it made me laugh in the context of the video. Also the left paddle moves poorly because of my left hand, not the pot.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nictinkers on October 30, 2019, 10:18:11 am
It took seven weeks of badgering before I managed to get my first response from the Australian distributor. They gave me a price and I sent back a couple of questions that day. That was a week ago now and it’s been radio silence again. It’s like pulling teeth with these guys.  |O

It seems like the only other option for paying Australian dollarydoos for one of these is to pay the outrageous price element 14 wants for one: https://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-bundle-rtb2004-b243-b1-pk1/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153 (https://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-bundle-rtb2004-b243-b1-pk1/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Kean on October 30, 2019, 02:37:33 pm
It took seven weeks of badgering before I managed to get my first response from the Australian distributor. They gave me a price and I sent back a couple of questions that day. That was a week ago now and it’s been radio silence again. It’s like pulling teeth with these guys.  |O

It seems like the only other option for paying Australian dollarydoos for one of these is to pay the outrageous price element 14 wants for one: https://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-bundle-rtb2004-b243-b1-pk1/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153 (https://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-bundle-rtb2004-b243-b1-pk1/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153)

Have you tried the Australian R&S direct sales?  That's who I've been buying from, and they've been very helpful and beat other pricing like E14.
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/au/service-support/plus-services/service-sales-locator/service-sales-locator_58697.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/au/service-support/plus-services/service-sales-locator/service-sales-locator_58697.html)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nictinkers on October 30, 2019, 07:46:44 pm
Have you tried the Australian R&S direct sales?

Thanks Kean but yes, I started this process talking to them in person at Electronex. They  want to pass me off to the distributor, who don't seem to want to have anything to do with me.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on October 31, 2019, 08:27:08 pm
Have you tried the Australian R&S direct sales?

Thanks Kean but yes, I started this process talking to them in person at Electronex. They  want to pass me off to the distributor, who don't seem to want to have anything to do with me.
Can you please PM me the distributor and I'll see if I can light a fire under them via Munich.  Sorry for the trouble.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nictinkers on October 31, 2019, 08:29:48 pm
Thanks Rich but my posts here might have already done that. If I drop off the radar again I'll let you know.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on October 31, 2019, 08:47:28 pm
Sounds good.  Don't hesitate to ping me if there's something I can do.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Doug_T on November 03, 2019, 06:49:21 pm
The RTB2K-COM4: $3,700.00 almost attainable price apparently vaporized at the end of October. 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Cthulhoid on November 03, 2019, 07:17:39 pm
The RTB2K-COM4: $3,700.00 almost attainable price apparently vaporized at the end of October.

That's probably an error at Tequipment; Newark and TestEquity both have the correct price, and R&S's website still says $3700 through 31 December.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on November 03, 2019, 07:17:52 pm
Still around in Europe: https://www.datatec.de/Oszilloskope/Oszilloskope-bis-500-MHz/Komplettpaket-inkl.-Oszilloskop-RTB2004-MSO-4-16-Kanal-300-MHz-APP-Bundle-RTB-PK1-RTB2K-COM4 (https://www.datatec.de/Oszilloskope/Oszilloskope-bis-500-MHz/Komplettpaket-inkl.-Oszilloskop-RTB2004-MSO-4-16-Kanal-300-MHz-APP-Bundle-RTB-PK1-RTB2K-COM4)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thn788 on November 04, 2019, 01:30:04 pm
BATRONIX (also in Germany) still lists the special offers: https://www.batronix.com/versand/rohde-schwarz/RTB2000.html (https://www.batronix.com/versand/rohde-schwarz/RTB2000.html)

And R&S themselves also still list the special offer as "Limited time offer: now through December 31, 2019." for all scopes from the RTC1K series up to RTA4K: https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/de/produkt/pr-oscilloscopes-produkt-startseite_63493-630293.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/de/produkt/pr-oscilloscopes-produkt-startseite_63493-630293.html)

The R&S website also shows, which packages are available in which countries and the only special cases are some options not included in some countries for the RTM3K and up. But generally the special offers should still be available world-wide until end of this year, according to R&S.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 04, 2019, 01:51:50 pm
The RTB2K-COM4: $3,700.00 almost attainable price apparently vaporized at the end of October.

That's probably an error at Tequipment; Newark and TestEquity both have the correct price, and R&S's website still says $3700 through 31 December.
Correct.  We're notifying Tequipment (not sure what happened).  The promo runs through the end of December.  No change. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: sixtimesseven on November 04, 2019, 02:39:49 pm
Hi Rich

Any chance the offers also extend to upgrades to existing scopes in the EU?

Thanks :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 04, 2019, 02:46:38 pm
Hi Rich

Any chance the offers also extend to upgrades to existing scopes in the EU?

Thanks :)
Not that I'm aware of.  Were you able to jump on the pk1 bundle promo here recently?  Not sure when/if that will come back, but I'll pass on your suggestion.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on November 14, 2019, 07:22:04 pm
Hi Rich!

It's almost been a year since the last firmware update. Is any update expected this year?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 14, 2019, 09:57:31 pm
Hi Rich!

It's almost been a year since the last firmware update. Is any update expected this year?
I'll check.  Anything in particular you want me to check on?

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on November 15, 2019, 12:00:14 pm
First of all, I am interested in the ability to manage the FFT buffer size. Is such a revision planned? It would also be nice to improve the math capabilities and add  MIL-STD 1553 protocol decoding.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Kittel99 on November 16, 2019, 04:41:02 pm
Hi all,

I am new in this blog and a user of RTB2004 since march and I am also waiting for an update:

For solving few bugs:
- Zoom window is wrong if Menu box is open on right side
- Zoom window is wrong if Display track grid is active
- Pattern Aribitrary: Save and Load again: Nothing will work anymore, only Off/On helps
- Pattern generator: Arbitray Value is not available for Ouick Access (with <<<), (Index works)

And maybe we will get some new features:
- Quick measurement : with Duty
- Search: also for protokoll UArt and SPI
- new Trigger types: Runt, Rise time, Edge A/B
  (here I contacted already R+S Munich and I have got a feedback: reserved for RTB3000...
   sorry, but all other 400,-€ scopes can do this...)

@Rich: thank you for your support - I am a follower of this blog since several months!

...and in summary: I like working with this scope very much - big touchscreen, low noise, on board function generator,  protocol results, ...

Best regards Kittel99
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: AlexFerro on November 16, 2019, 09:36:55 pm
I have a couple of feature requests for the I2C Decoder/Trigger. I hit some cases at work debugging an I2C bus that I couldn't just set a trigger on. I actually hit these on the RTM3004 at work, but I just checked my RTB2004 and the feature appears to be common, so I chose to post here since it's a more active thread.
I have no idea how feasible these are, just that I hit on them while debugging a troublesome I2C bus.

The first feature is related to the "Trigger on NACK" which I have found very useful in the past for debugging unexpected transaction failures, but this bus also has read traffic, where a NACK is a normal occurrence, and so the scope just triggered on every read transaction, hiding the failed write transaction in all the other triggers.
At a minimum I'd love a "Trigger on unexpected NACK" that would ignore the normal NACK at the end of a read cycle that is immediately followed by a stop condition. Although that brings up the idea that an "Unexpected ACK" trigger might be useful to trigger when the master fails to perform the spec required NACK at the end of a receive. An even more useful NACK trigger would include the above, but allow it to be filtered by address, so that a system containing a device that intentionally NACKs its address, like an EEPROM that is still busy writing, could be ignored by filtering for the other device you are having trouble with.

The second I2C trigger is a modification of the address and data trigger, to include being able to select trigger on an address only and zero data bytes. The suggested work around of setting a single byte trigger with all don't care bits does not cover the case of a system either getting a NACK and giving up without sending data, or simply a protocol error where the address is sent, but a stop condition is generated. I ran into this when I couldn't trigger on just the specific NACK, but I knew what address the issue was and thus tried to trigger on any access to that device to see if there was an analog issue during access to it causing the problem.

I hope these are feasible and I'm not the only person who thinks these would be useful. Although if I have just missed how to do these, I'd love to be corrected, but I could not find a way to do this (other than hacking out most of the complex system code to not do any other operations that trigger the scope).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on November 17, 2019, 06:26:28 pm
I'll check.  Anything in particular you want me to check on?

-Rich
Hi Rich,

If the firmware guys need suggestions for improvements, other than the previously discussed questions about FFT buffer size management (e.g. my comment here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg2693064/#msg2693064 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg2693064/#msg2693064)), would it be possible to extend the bandwidth limit function to support cut-off frequencies other than 20MHz and full BW?
Sometimes it's nice to bandlimit a signal (e.g. to reduce noise) but 20MHz isn't the best option - allowing for it to be limited to one of the lower end options offered for the same instrument (i.e. 70/100/200MHz for a 300MHz optioned RTB2k) would be very handy, and I assume the scope is even already calibrated for these steps to support the option system. It looks like something like this is offered for the RTM3k series - is this a market segmentation thing, or just a feature that was added after the RTB2k was already done?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on November 17, 2019, 06:36:36 pm
I hope Munich reevaluates the market segmentation, or at least offers a discounted upgrade path to the RTM series.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 18, 2019, 02:40:52 pm
Thanks everyone for the notes - I'll make sure Munich gets this feedback.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on December 03, 2019, 05:08:22 am
Hello,

I wonder the R&S®RTB2004 has input impedance "1 MΩ ± 2 % with 9 pF ± 2 pF"
while the RTO2000 has "1 MΩ ± 1 % || 15 pF"
and the RTM3000 has "1 MΩ ± 1 % || 14 pF ± 1 pF".

Why has the lower frequency scope so much better input impedance?

Best regards
egonotto
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on December 05, 2019, 02:29:40 am
I'll take the opportunity to plug a request again,

An event A followed by an event B trigger, channel and pattern. Maybe the same or related to the edge A/B request below.

Thanks Rich,

Joel

Hi all,


- new Trigger types: Runt, Rise time, Edge A/B
  (here I contacted already R+S Munich and I have got a feedback: reserved for RTB3000...
   sorry, but all other 400,-€ scopes can do this...)



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on December 05, 2019, 06:52:00 pm
I'll take the opportunity to plug a request again,

An event A followed by an event B trigger, channel and pattern. Maybe the same or related to the edge A/B request below.

Thanks Rich,

Joel

Hi all,


- new Trigger types: Runt, Rise time, Edge A/B
  (here I contacted already R+S Munich and I have got a feedback: reserved for RTB3000...
   sorry, but all other 400,-€ scopes can do this...)



Thanks.  I'll make sure Munich hears this again. 

And just an update on the next RTB2000 firmware.  No firm date, but one is in progress.  As I get more details I'll post them up.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on December 19, 2019, 03:22:27 pm
Hi all,

I am new in this blog and a user of RTB2004 since march and I am also waiting for an update:

For solving few bugs:
- Zoom window is wrong if Menu box is open on right side
- Zoom window is wrong if Display track grid is active
- Pattern Aribitrary: Save and Load again: Nothing will work anymore, only Off/On helps
- Pattern generator: Arbitray Value is not available for Ouick Access (with <<<), (Index works)

And maybe we will get some new features:
- Quick measurement : with Duty
- Search: also for protokoll UArt and SPI
- new Trigger types: Runt, Rise time, Edge A/B
  (here I contacted already R+S Munich and I have got a feedback: reserved for RTB3000...
   sorry, but all other 400,-€ scopes can do this...)

@Rich: thank you for your support - I am a follower of this blog since several months!

...and in summary: I like working with this scope very much - big touchscreen, low noise, on board function generator,  protocol results, ...

Best regards Kittel99
Hi Kittel99 - the bugs you mentioned will be fixed in the upcoming release.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Kittel99 on December 22, 2019, 12:17:04 pm
Hi Rich,

thank you again for your support. I am curious about the result.
May be we will get some additional features?

Best regards Kittel99
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: genghisnico13 on December 23, 2019, 11:57:40 am
Hi Rich, I found another Bug and maybe some suggestions:
SCPI:
CHAN<m>:OVER? doesn't work, it always returns 0, even when you can see the clipping indicator.

Bode:
it doesn't remember the generator output impedance setting on startup, always starting in HiZ(could be a feature), but it remembers the value, so if you use it at 2.5Vpp 50Ohm, when you restart it's at 2.5Vpp HiZ.
Could the phase offset limit be increased to more than 100? on small phase scales you can't put 360 degrees on the center.
At around 8khz there is a change in acquisition,I guess from High resolution to sample or something like that because with a noisy signal you can see it get worse, could that be improved?(that's the jump in the screenshot)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on December 23, 2019, 10:06:01 pm
When doing FFT on a math channel, it doesn't seem to refresh until you change e.g. RBW.

Setup I was using: C2, C4 enabled, M3 = C4-C2, FFT on M3.

FFT doesn't move at all. Especially noticeable when you change stop frequency and half of the plot is blank.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mahi on December 26, 2019, 03:01:49 pm
The bundle promotion ends at 31/12/2019 (confirmed by the R&S website (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/nl/product/pr-oscilloscopes-productstartpage_63493-630293.html)) yet Batronix (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2K-COM4.html) updated their website with end date 30/06/2020 (it read 31/12 until a few days ago). Is the promotion prolonged or is Batronix misinformed?

Update: Farnell/Newark now also mentions 30/06/2020 for the promotion on some pages (although not everywhere)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on December 27, 2019, 05:06:58 am

And just an update on the next RTB2000 firmware.  No firm date, but one is in progress.  As I get more details I'll post them up.

-Rich

Yesssss!!  Such great news.  Thanks for all your efforts, Rich!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on December 29, 2019, 06:54:40 pm
 Probably a stupid question - where the menu for X-Y mode?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on December 29, 2019, 06:57:29 pm
Menu -> top entry "XY"
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on December 30, 2019, 05:27:05 am
 Thanks. This button is very difficult to detect.  :phew:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 18, 2020, 08:14:39 pm
Hi Folks,

We've started creating short "how-to" videos for some of our products.  First up was the RTB2000.  Some of this is pretty basic, but for someone new to the scope, or someone potentially looking at buying one, they might be helpful.  Let me know if there are additional videos you'd like to see.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKxVoO5jUTlsHhyVcpVaZJ-a1x6mK9Fj9 (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKxVoO5jUTlsHhyVcpVaZJ-a1x6mK9Fj9)

Next up are similar videos for the FPC1500 and RTM3000.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nigelwright7557 on January 19, 2020, 12:02:34 pm
"rather low cost" .. looks like ~$3000 to me.

Anyone know what price range we are talking about here?

I paid for £40 for a used 35 MHz dual channel scope off ebay and that does all I need.

For digital storage I paid £20 for USB PC scope off ebay.

Why pay for functions I will never use ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on January 19, 2020, 02:39:40 pm
How is that relevant to this scope?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on January 22, 2020, 04:38:49 pm
 I wanted to ask 100 times about this: what happened with the offset range? Nowhere can I move the zero off the screen, or +/- five divisions from the center. Specifications promise up to +/- 40 Volts above 200mV/div or +/-1,2 Volts below 200mV/div.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 22, 2020, 07:02:13 pm
I wanted to ask 100 times about this: what happened with the offset range? Nowhere can I move the zero off the screen, or +/- five divisions from the center. Specifications promise up to +/- 40 Volts above 200mV/div or +/-1,2 Volts below 200mV/div.
from manual v9 page 39:

4.3.1 Vertical Controls

[Offset/Position (upper knob)]
The upper vertical knob adjusts the following, depending on the selected waveform:
● Offset or position of an analog channel (adjustable: main menu > "Vertical"). The
visual effect is the same. While the offset sets a voltage, position is a graphical set-
ting given in divisions.

You can change between Position and Offset, see Menu "Vertical", picture is on page 42.

Peter
Beat me to it.  Thanks.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on January 23, 2020, 04:43:04 pm
 Great news! Thanks friends. Please explain the meaning of this separation of functions (offset / position). By the way, RTA has a significantly larger adjustment range.  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on January 23, 2020, 04:49:15 pm
Great news! Thanks friends. Please explain the meaning of this separation of functions (offset / position). By the way, RTA has a significantly larger adjustment range.  :)
The offset probably remains constant when changing v/div so the position will change accordingly where the position should remain constant even when changing v/div. Likely this is a user preference. In a Yokogawa oscilloscope I used to own the offset and position controls where combined into one DAC output to drive the offset in the analog front-end.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 23, 2020, 05:21:09 pm
Great news! Thanks friends. Please explain the meaning of this separation of functions (offset / position). By the way, RTA has a significantly larger adjustment range.  :)
Position is like the name describes - it is basically the position on the screen and is adjusted in divisions.  Offset actually adds a voltage to "offset" where the signal is positioned on the screen.  It's useful to measure small AC voltages that are riding on a larger DC voltage. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EyeDontKnow on January 25, 2020, 04:20:57 am
I just gifted my older Tek 2246 scope... to my 18yo nephew.
So, it is time for me to modernize my test bench.
I'm looking at the RTB2004... but confused at some of the options and prices.
~$3k, is my goal.

I'm not a EE, just a self-taught home hobbyist who builds:
Analog audio gear,
Eurorack synth music modules,
Linear PSUs (measuring ripple and noise).
Measuring active and passive filters in the audio realm,
Building voltage references as a challenge,
Rehabilitating classic test and music gear.
(this would include testing for opamp oscillation and also testing for room resonances using a calibration microphone)

I also have additional funds for a 3-channel modern PSU, and a new Signal generator.

I'm a little disappointed because I applied for 2 on-line quotes on the R&S site two weeks ago, and have not heard back (I checked spam folder too).
Calling the USA phone#, four hours later I got a call back to then was told to then call a regional rep (los Angeles)...left a message, and so far no call-back. (Phil Luken).

I don't want to add extras and software I don't need, but at the same time I would like to grow into a scope, so some options could be included at the time of purchase if my budget allows it, or see if there is a bundling option..
.....plus probes and cabling.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on January 25, 2020, 04:25:27 am
I just gifted my older Tek 2246 scope... to my 18yo nephew.
So, it is time for me to modernize my test bench.
I'm looking at the RTB2004... but confused at some of the options and prices.
~$3k, is my goal.

I'm not a EE, just a self-taught home hobbyist who builds:
Analog audio gear,
Eurorack synth music modules,
Linear PSUs (measuring ripple and noise).
Measuring active and passive filters in the audio realm,
Building voltage references as a challenge,
Rehabilitating classic test and music gear.
(this would include testing for opamp oscillation and also testing for room resonances using a calibration microphone)

I also have additional funds for a 3-channel modern PSU, and a new Signal generator.

I'm a little disappointed because I applied for 2 on-line quotes on the R&S site two weeks ago, and have not heard back (I checked spam folder too).
Calling the USA phone#, four hours later I got a call back to then was told to then call a regional rep (los Angeles)...left a message, and so far no call-back. (Phil Luken).

I don't want to add extras and software I don't need, but at the same time I would like to grow into a scope, so some options could be included at the time of purchase if my budget allows it, or see if there is a bundling option..
.....plus probes and cabling.
Lucky nephew!  The 2246 is a nice scope. 

And I'm very sorry to hear about the troubles you're having getting information from us - please shoot me a PM with your contact info and I'll get the right person in touch with you shortly.

Thanks for considering the RTB2000.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EyeDontKnow on February 01, 2020, 12:36:46 am
Rich has offered some very good help......thanks Rich.
I was able to get in contact with a regional distributor (Test Equity, Newberry Park, CA) to purchase a new scope.
But, it did take some diligence on my part, as R&S never replied to my online "click here for a quote"......and that seems strange to me, . If they really want to sell what they offer., why was there no reply ?
You would think an eager buyer would have a bit of priority......with money burning in their pocket.

All said and done, I have an RTB2004 ordered, and being sent to me free shipping.
I'll chalk this up to......if you want something, go get it.....don't be perturbed if it takes some extra effort.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on February 01, 2020, 12:56:11 am
Let me know how that goes for you. I've ordered 3 things from them and the only thing I received within a month(all labelled in stock) was my RTB when it was released. The other times I've had to contact them a few times. Last thing I ordered I never even paid for because after two months I charged it back and then a few days later they shipped it and never responded to my MULTIPLE emails asking how to pay them for it. Oh, they're also 15 minutes away from me.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on February 03, 2020, 04:19:04 am
I'm sorry you folks had trouble ordering.  It shouldn't be so difficult.  If there is one positive, as I told EyeDontKnow via PM, we've had a lot of internal discussions about EyeDontKnow's issues.  I'm hoping to see some changes to make sure we're more responsive.

maginnovision - are you in Columbia?  If so, next time I'm out there (I travel out every other month or so), maybe I can set up a tour for you of our facilities.  PM me if you'd be interested.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on February 03, 2020, 08:33:55 am
The normal bug from manufacture handling leads are
1. Manufacture receive your request
2. then they pass it on to a dealer
3. and the dealer says "hmm only 1 scope - i'll deal with that later" - and promptly forgets.
4. And no follow up is done from main source of lead (manufacture)

I know from own experience that happens in just about 75% of the request for quotes I do. But it is not limited to R&S.

But it does provide an opportunity to get a much larger discount when dealer stands there with teary eyes after having been told off by Manufacture.

But it does not only happen with external dealers. Some companies internal sales departments are not much better.



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thinkfat on February 03, 2020, 03:31:41 pm
Didn't have such problem with R&S in Germany. I needed one scope and I even though I decided to buy an HMO1000, which isn't actually a R&S but a Hameg design, referral to the distributor worked without a hitch... Seems more a local problem.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Harjit on February 03, 2020, 07:36:46 pm
Something must have changed in the last year because I got a very prompt response (in the US) when I used the give me a quote button.

Glad to see that Rich is chasing it down.

Did the new firmware for the RTB2004 ship?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EyeDontKnow on February 17, 2020, 08:22:01 pm
My new RTB2004 300Mhz scope arrived, (with the latest firmware and apps installed.)
I was eventually  told there was a one month "back order"...but alas, it somehow arrived within a week.
All is good.
Then a day later, a second "duplicate" scope was delivered from a different address.......probably because I was a polite  "squeaky wheel".
 I'll be returning the extra package, as I appreciate all the efforts, once I made personal contacts.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Weston on February 26, 2020, 03:13:39 am
My RTB2004 arrived today! I have spent a few hours fiddling with it and it has been a joy to use.z Many thanks to Rich and the people at TEquipment for helping me deal with some issues relating to the edu discount.

I am happy to now own a scope designed and made in Europe. My old rigol, my very first scope, is going to the kid of a family friend. Hopefully it will get him into electronics.

One minor thing to note is that the manual claims that the probes are pre-adjusted for the scope when they are not. Spending some time adjusting the probes I realized that the ground clip on the compensation output is designed to cradle to probe and keep it in place without any external force, such a convenient feature!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on February 26, 2020, 10:52:44 am
The cradle can be a bit of a fiddle when compensating other probes, but does work well with the included ones. The compensation output is pretty quick btw - risetime under 1ns.
As for the included probes, mine didn't come with BNC adaptors unfortunately, but they are made by the OEM "Hong Kong Texas" with the same OEM used by Lecroy, Picoscope etc, so you should be able to get accessories from a few places.

Edit: oh and I found the "pre compensated probe" claim to be BS too - why do they even say that when compensating a probe is a fundamental part of using a scope?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on February 26, 2020, 09:34:18 pm
I'll let Munich know about the compensation note in the manual. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on February 27, 2020, 09:09:43 pm
 Dear Rich.
 Please ask in Munich when the new software arrives. For more than a year now I have not been able to use FFT for low frequencies. :horse:
 Is there any way to get back to the old version?
 Thanks.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on February 28, 2020, 02:34:50 pm
Dear Rich.
 Please ask in Munich when the new software arrives. For more than a year now I have not been able to use FFT for low frequencies. :horse:
 Is there any way to get back to the old version?
 Thanks.
I've talked with Munich.  Unfortunately, the next revision of firmware (and honestly, it sounds like all future revisions) won't change the FFT behavior for low frequencies.   Having said that, you can send an email to customer support and ask them to provide FW: V02.101  for the RTB2000

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/au/service-support/service-sales-locator/service-sales-locator_58697.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/au/service-support/service-sales-locator/service-sales-locator_58697.html)

This is a fairly old FW, so there will be bugs that have since been fixed, but the FFT won't slow down significantly when working in low frequencies.

And since I'm sure I'll get asked "why", I didn't get a lot of details but it sounds like there are some limitations in finding a sweet spot for the FFT and the team has decided to optimize for other areas outside of low frequency.  I know this isn't ideal for some of you  :(, but hopefully the ability to use older FW will help. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on February 28, 2020, 02:36:03 pm
It's kind of a stupid workaround but I just transfer the data to my PC and DSP/FFT it from there.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on February 29, 2020, 03:18:36 pm
 What a surprise.  :wtf: I can do my work, but I can not play with my toys!

It's kind of a stupid workaround but I just transfer the data to my PC and DSP/FFT it from there.

  Yes, I can live on the street and look through the windows in to my house ... This is not a solution.
  I will write a letter with a request to change the structure of the FFT. And I urge everyone to make the same request!

 Rich, does RTA have such a phenomenon?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on February 29, 2020, 04:05:00 pm
 I have all the firmware saved. I did not dare to think that I could go back ...  |O
 I can play with my toys again!
 Rich, is harm from frequent firmware changes is possible?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 03, 2020, 01:59:42 pm
Rich, is harm from frequent firmware changes is possible?
No harm  :-+

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ppeterl on March 04, 2020, 10:26:04 pm
Dear Rich.
 Please ask in Munich when the new software arrives. For more than a year now I have not been able to use FFT for low frequencies. :horse:
 Is there any way to get back to the old version?
 Thanks.
I've talked with Munich.  Unfortunately, the next revision of firmware (and honestly, it sounds like all future revisions) won't change the FFT behavior for low frequencies.   Having said that, you can send an email to customer support and ask them to provide FW: V02.101  for the RTB2000

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/au/service-support/service-sales-locator/service-sales-locator_58697.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/au/service-support/service-sales-locator/service-sales-locator_58697.html)

This is a fairly old FW, so there will be bugs that have since been fixed, but the FFT won't slow down significantly when working in low frequencies.

And since I'm sure I'll get asked "why", I didn't get a lot of details but it sounds like there are some limitations in finding a sweet spot for the FFT and the team has decided to optimize for other areas outside of low frequency.  I know this isn't ideal for some of you  :(, but hopefully the ability to use older FW will help. 

-Rich

Rich,

I find this news quite disappointing, actually. I have postponed my amplifier project for a year now, awaiting a usable FFT on the scope for audio frequencies. Not to worry, I have multiple other projects on the side, so I'm not totally out of projects to work on in the mean time.

The one thing I've been waiting for is to be able tune a pot to minimize some harmonic, and that can't be done in 4 sec slideshow-mode, which is where the R&S FFT is at the moment. And cheaper scopes can do that easily - as shown in the link I posted previously in this thread: https://youtu.be/b_PnT7lq9Xg?t=774 (https://youtu.be/b_PnT7lq9Xg?t=774.) (12:53 in if ads kick in). I though I'd have that covered by going for a higher prized (10x) reputed brand, thinking that they will at least be on par with cheaper Chinese options. Apparently not so.

Now, what equipment does R&S recommend me to use to tune that pot, now that we learned that the scope won't do it, and at what prize?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on March 05, 2020, 02:59:03 am

I find this news quite disappointing, actually. I have postponed my amplifier project for a year now, awaiting a usable FFT on the scope for audio frequencies. Not to worry, I have multiple other projects on the side, so I'm not totally out of projects to work on in the mean time.



For audio, have you looked into using your PC sound card and software?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on March 05, 2020, 06:15:13 am
 RTB can be a versatile and serious tool. I like it (still) so much that I planned to buy a higher model. Now I have a question - to buy an additionally cheap two-channel PTB with the old firmware for low-frequency applications ?! Three oscilloscopes. This is idiocy. Then I do not need an existing oscilloscope!
  I work with 400Hz and 50Hz converters, I work a lot with sound. And I am not alone with such tasks. Incredible situation. This is a car that cannot drive slower than 40 km / h!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 05, 2020, 07:26:49 am
You could just buy something better suited to this particular task or sell the R&S and get something better suited. Either way if it doesn't work for you make sure you have something that does.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Harjit on March 05, 2020, 05:57:26 pm
Is there a new version of FW for the RTB2004 coming out anytime soon? The last release was more than a year ago.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ppeterl on March 05, 2020, 09:05:48 pm
For audio, have you looked into using your PC sound card and software?

Yes, that's where I'm going. It would however be convenient to have it on the scope for quick adjustments. Setting up the laptop, fiddling with software etc is kind of a meh. Also, space is premium here. I was hoping that a good allrounder scope would suffice.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Chefbastler on March 05, 2020, 11:14:45 pm
Is there a new version of FW for the RTB2004 coming out anytime soon? The last release was more than a year ago.

I hope too.
The actual version have some bugs around the logik protocol analyzer, signal generator, ...
I sent a bug report to R&S last year.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: hwj-d on March 06, 2020, 02:04:28 am
Is there a new version of FW for the RTB2004 coming out anytime soon? The last release was more than a year ago.

I hope too.
The actual version have some bugs around the logik protocol analyzer, signal generator, ...
I sent a bug report to R&S last year.
What's about to share your buglist here?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on March 09, 2020, 11:25:33 pm
... it sounds like all future revisions) won't change the FFT behavior for low frequencies.   

.
.

And since I'm sure I'll get asked "why", I didn't get a lot of details but it sounds like there are some limitations in finding a sweet spot for the FFT and the team has decided to optimize for other areas outside of low frequency.

-Rich

Just curious, how low?  What frequency "minimum" did they optimize for?  Audio guy here. :)  Thanks!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on March 10, 2020, 12:50:57 am
The problem is really that the FFT function is insisting on filling its 128k FFT points, even if that takes a very long time and the actual FFT window size is much much smaller than that.

The benefit is that you can change window side and position after capture, which is normally nice, but not worth the downside in low-freq applications.

It would be very nice if instead you could simply force the capture size to be the much smaller window size. But I have a suspicion that the reason this is not changed, is that that could require a larger-than-tiny change of the FPGA logic, rather than just a software change.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on March 10, 2020, 01:16:08 am
Is there any chance of making r&s instrument view useful? I can't even connect over USB, only Ethernet. Is this in active development or just maintenance?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on March 10, 2020, 10:21:54 am
The problem is really that the FFT function is insisting on filling its 128k FFT points, even if that takes a very long time and the actual FFT window size is much much smaller than that.

The benefit is that you can change window side and position after capture, which is normally nice, but not worth the downside in low-freq applications.

It would be very nice if instead you could simply force the capture size to be the much smaller window size. But I have a suspicion that the reason this is not changed, is that that could require a larger-than-tiny change of the FPGA logic, rather than just a software change.
Thanks for the good explanation - much better than my attempt a few pages back.
This is why I was asking for something as simple as a toggle for the acquisition behaviour - either operate as now (which would keep the benefit of changing window parameters after acquisition), or limit acquisition memory depth to the current window size (allowing for much faster update rate and more interactive use at low sample rates).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on March 10, 2020, 05:36:32 pm
Is there any chance of making r&s instrument view useful? I can't even connect over USB, only Ethernet. Is this in active development or just maintenance?
I'm embarrassed to admit I haven't even used it  :-\  Is there something specific you're looking for?  If so, feel free to PM me and I'll talk with Munich about it.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Minter on March 19, 2020, 03:35:52 am
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before but I think I'm seeing a bug in the SPI protocol decoder. I have a SPI master configured for Mode 0 (CPOL=0, CPHA=0), and I have the protocol decoder configured to latch data on the rising edge of SCLK. The SPI master controller that I'm looking at is a little naughty; it sends out 32-bit words in 8-bit bursts, asserting MOSI between bursts. However the data on the MOSI line is always valid at the rising edge of SCLK. The transaction consists of multiple 32-bit words with CS asserted for the duration of the transaction.

In the attached screenshots the master is sending the word 0x01000040 but the scope is decoding the data as 0x30000161. It seems like the decoder is latching MOSI on the falling edge of SCLK, however if I configure the decoder for falling edge I get a different result (0x03010141). Am I just missing something here?

Thanks
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JoHr on March 19, 2020, 08:52:13 am

In the attached screenshots the master is sending the word 0x01000040 but the scope is decoding the data as 0x30000161. It seems like the decoder is latching MOSI on the falling edge of SCLK, however if I configure the decoder for falling edge I get a different result (0x03010141). Am I just missing something here?

Thanks

Hi, have you tried with rising slope on your clock source?

For the fourth image you have send you are decoding on a falling clock slope, which is the same slope when data is changing.
Due to some jitter and the high frequency you get wrong decodings.

A rising edge on clock slope shall bring up a clean decoding  for your setup.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Minter on March 19, 2020, 06:15:38 pm
Hi, have you tried with rising slope on your clock source?

Yes, the protocol decoder was configured for a rising edge clock for the first 3 screenshots. I purposefully misconfigured the scope in the 4th screenshot only to try and get a better understanding of how the decoder is handling clock edges.

Now that I've looked more closely, it looks like there is more granularity on the protocol decoder's MOSI bit trace vs. the corresponding logic analyzer trace. I wonder if the protocol decoder is processing undersampled data? I assumed it was a software decoder operating on the 1.25Gsps trace data.. it would be a shame if not.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 19, 2020, 06:35:10 pm
The protocol decoder is using decimated data. What is your clock rate? You are running the SPI at around 60MHz if I'm not mistaken which is over the maximum SPI clock rate.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Minter on March 19, 2020, 08:40:41 pm
The protocol decoder is using decimated data. What is your clock rate? You are running the SPI at around 60MHz if I'm not mistaken which is over the maximum SPI clock rate.

You're correct, the SPI clock is close to 70 MHz. Do you happen to know the sampling rate or maximum supported clock rate? The only bus speed limitations I could find in the user manual pertained to the UART decoder (3 Mbps.)

Thanks!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 19, 2020, 08:46:14 pm
The protocol decoder is using decimated data. What is your clock rate? You are running the SPI at around 60MHz if I'm not mistaken which is over the maximum SPI clock rate.

You're correct, the SPI clock is close to 70 MHz. Do you happen to know the sampling rate or maximum supported clock rate? The only bus speed limitations I could find in the user manual pertained to the UART decoder (3 Mbps.)

Thanks!
I have managed to push the RTM3004 to 62.5MHz during my testing but the official limit is 25MHz. I assume the RTB2004 has similar limits.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Harjit on March 21, 2020, 05:17:58 pm
On my RTB2004, I'm moving the screen left / right using the Horizontal Position knob and the waveforms are moving up and down.

Please find attached four pictures that were taken in sequence with the Horizontal Position knob rotated one click between them.

If you are running on Windows, put the four pictures in the same folder, open one with Photo Viewer and then use the left / right arrow to move between the pictures and you can easily seem them moving up / down. The Orange waveform is the easiest to see the effect on because it is on top of a grid line.

This makes measurements difficult.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: matches on April 04, 2020, 03:09:10 pm
So after upgrading to the latest firmware version I thought I would run the Self Alignment routine.

It failed with this message:

  Channel: 1
  Alignment not possible.

  ERROR-ID: 201-59.1.23014

I followed the instruction to the letter.
I then retried but with a terminator on Channel 1 input and then the Self Alignment passed.

Do I have a problem?

Thanks

Hi, where did you find the instructions?
I have a similar Error.

"Channel: 0
Alignment not possible.

Description: 201-59.0:6"

In the User Manual I could not find any error description.

Regards
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on April 05, 2020, 10:00:47 am
Are you running the latest firmware (a bit over a year old at this point)? I think there was a fix for calibration issues somewhere along the line - I had similar issues with one firmware but managed to coax it into self-aligning once, and never had problems on later firmwares.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: matches on April 07, 2020, 08:41:58 am
Jep, the latest 2.202 FW is installed.

As it was new, id had an older FW and I could perform a self alignment without errors.

Regards
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on April 07, 2020, 04:13:47 pm
Jep, the latest 2.202 FW is installed.

As it was new, id had an older FW and I could perform a self alignment without errors.

Regards
I'll see what I can find out!

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on April 07, 2020, 04:16:11 pm
On my RTB2004, I'm moving the screen left / right using the Horizontal Position knob and the waveforms are moving up and down.

Please find attached four pictures that were taken in sequence with the Horizontal Position knob rotated one click between them.

If you are running on Windows, put the four pictures in the same folder, open one with Photo Viewer and then use the left / right arrow to move between the pictures and you can easily seem them moving up / down. The Orange waveform is the easiest to see the effect on because it is on top of a grid line.

This makes measurements difficult.
Hi Harjit - running a self alignment should help.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: stafil on April 20, 2020, 03:36:25 am
Is there a hack for this?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on April 20, 2020, 03:43:23 am
Not to my knowledge. R&S running promotions for most of the time made it not particularly interesting to develop a hack.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: stafil on April 20, 2020, 08:02:24 pm
Not to my knowledge. R&S running promotions for most of the time made it not particularly interesting to develop a hack.

Are the promotions for upgrade, after you buy the scope, or you have to take advantage of them when purchasing the scope?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on April 20, 2020, 08:24:11 pm
RTB - https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/)

RTM - https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTM-COM4US/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTM-COM4US/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/)

RTA - https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTA-COM4US/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTA-COM4US/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on April 20, 2020, 08:44:29 pm
Are there any promotions for just the upgrades? I bought my RTB2004 with all software options except for the bandwidth upgrade, so it's still at 70MHz. I thought several times about upgrading the bandwidth, but it's easily $1000.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: stafil on April 21, 2020, 08:35:56 pm
Not to my knowledge. R&S running promotions for most of the time made it not particularly interesting to develop a hack.

That's a pity. I would really love an RTB or even an RTM, but I don't think I can justify buying a non-hackable scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on April 21, 2020, 08:46:21 pm
It's unfortunate that no hack exists but I'm not regretting my RTB-COM4 purchase, except maybe that I should've gotten a RTM.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on April 21, 2020, 08:46:51 pm
I actually keep being tempted to get the RTA deal but I keep talking myself out of it at the same time. It's a good deal and has good noise specs even at full bandwidth which would be useful for me. The RTM isn't much cheaper for the deal right now. I believe SOMEONE was selling an RTB, I think a launch unit, for a decent price. Check the B/S/W section.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: stafil on April 21, 2020, 09:10:19 pm
It's unfortunate that no hack exists but I'm not regretting my RTB-COM4 purchase, except maybe that I should've gotten a RTM.

Is it because nobody bothered, or did R&S kindly ask not to?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on April 21, 2020, 09:17:36 pm
I think nobody bothered. The first of us who bought them got the launch bundle for 2k anyway which included anything. People buying them now take into consideration the price and features so usually aren't looking to hack it. It also doesn't use linux like most of the hacked scopes so it may not be as easy since there may not be as many people as familiar with the system.

EDIT:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fully-loaded-rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-com-4-300-mhz-4-ch-all-options-inc-bode/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fully-loaded-rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-com-4-300-mhz-4-ch-all-options-inc-bode/)

Here is the FS link. Damn near launch bundle pricing.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: exe on April 22, 2020, 11:31:08 am
It also doesn't use linux

Oh, wow, what does it use?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Nixfried on April 22, 2020, 11:40:43 am
It also doesn't use linux

Oh, wow, what does it use?

My guess would be FreeRTOS...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on April 22, 2020, 01:37:05 pm
Yea. It's some RTOS variant which is why it's so quick to boot. I'm sure the licensing files would shed some light on that.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fred27 on April 22, 2020, 02:00:34 pm
A quick check of the RTM3000 shows FreeRTOS (under Device Information / Open Source Acknowledgement)/
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on April 22, 2020, 04:03:02 pm
Hello,

maginnovision wrote:

"
... and has good noise specs even at full bandwidth which would be useful for me
"

This is correct for the sensitive range.

But look for 1GHz and 1V/div:
RTA4004:                50Ohm 31.4 mV  1MOhm 45.6 mV (only 500MHz)(10 divs overall)
Infiniium S-Series:    50Ohm 6.8 mV
Tektronix MSO64:     50Ohm 10.8 mV
lecroy HDO6104A:    50Ohm 4.90 mV

Best regards
egonotto
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on April 22, 2020, 06:23:52 pm
Yes, it's not perfect but for my low noise measurements I would need low level measurements, far from 1V/div. I'd have to build/buy a new amplifier to get the levels that high.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Minter on April 25, 2020, 03:40:12 am
Another logic analyzer-related annoyance - very short pulses have a tendency to disappear and reappear from view when scrubbing the horizontal axis. Any state changes should be a minimum of 1 pixel width regardless of zoom level, otherwise it's very easy to miss important events. I attached an animated gif showing the issue with pulses on D2 and D3 as I adjust the horizontal position.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 25, 2020, 09:12:38 am
Another logic analyzer-related annoyance - very short pulses have a tendency to disappear and reappear from view when scrubbing the horizontal axis. Any state changes should be a minimum of 1 pixel width regardless of zoom level, otherwise it's very easy to miss important events. I attached an animated gif showing the issue with pulses on D2 and D3 as I adjust the horizontal position.
What happens if you set the acquisition mode to peak-detect?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on April 25, 2020, 12:10:00 pm
Another logic analyzer-related annoyance - very short pulses have a tendency to disappear and reappear from view when scrubbing the horizontal axis. Any state changes should be a minimum of 1 pixel width regardless of zoom level, otherwise it's very easy to miss important events. I attached an animated gif showing the issue with pulses on D2 and D3 as I adjust the horizontal position.
What happens if you set the acquisition mode to peak-detect?
Peak detect shouldn't have influence on digital channels..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 25, 2020, 03:11:05 pm
Another logic analyzer-related annoyance - very short pulses have a tendency to disappear and reappear from view when scrubbing the horizontal axis. Any state changes should be a minimum of 1 pixel width regardless of zoom level, otherwise it's very easy to miss important events. I attached an animated gif showing the issue with pulses on D2 and D3 as I adjust the horizontal position.
What happens if you set the acquisition mode to peak-detect?
Peak detect shouldn't have influence on digital channels..
Why not? I can't test it right now but I'd say a proper MSO implementation also has peak detect on the digital channels. After all peak-detect records the extremes within one sample interval and there is no reason why this can't apply to digital channels.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on April 25, 2020, 05:54:23 pm
Another logic analyzer-related annoyance - very short pulses have a tendency to disappear and reappear from view when scrubbing the horizontal axis. Any state changes should be a minimum of 1 pixel width regardless of zoom level, otherwise it's very easy to miss important events. I attached an animated gif showing the issue with pulses on D2 and D3 as I adjust the horizontal position.
What happens if you set the acquisition mode to peak-detect?
Peak detect shouldn't have influence on digital channels..
Why not? I can't test it right now but I'd say a proper MSO implementation also has peak detect on the digital channels. After all peak-detect records the extremes within one sample interval and there is no reason why this can't apply to digital channels.
I'm not saying it can't be made or that it is a bad idea. I'm just saying that peak detect setting in acquisition mode seems to be analog only related. If you check on your RTM3000 that would be very interesting information...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Minter on April 27, 2020, 10:27:56 am
I wanted to respond to confirm that not only does peak-detect mode affect how the digital channels are acquired, it affects how the current contents of the digital channels in acquisition memory are displayed.

The pulses I'm looking at are roughly 100ns in duration, so while short in comparison to my buffer length (20MS) they are still long compared to my acquisition rate (62.5Msps, 16ns sample period). As a result the pulses are always detected and present in acquisition memory regardless of the selected acquisition mode. They're just not always visible in the traces when zoomed out.

However, if for example I acquire some data in single-sample mode, stop the acquisition and then select peak-detect mode, the missing pulses appear in all my trace data. Additionally, if I drop the acquisition sample rate down to something like 1MHz I can still detect every 100ns pulse using peak-detect mode.

While IMO the digital traces should follow the convention of most other logic analyzers I've encountered and enforce a minimum width for state transitions, switching to peak-detect mode works, even on previously acquired data.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Someone on April 27, 2020, 12:27:32 pm
The pulses I'm looking at are roughly 100ns in duration, so while short in comparison to my buffer length (20MS) they are still long compared to my acquisition rate (62.5Msps, 16ns sample period). As a result the pulses are always detected and present in acquisition memory regardless of the selected acquisition mode. They're just not always visible in the traces when zoomed out.
There is something odd with the waveform rendering, your example gif had similar short transients coming and going from the analog trace too. An effective anti-aliasing method shouldn't do that.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: porker1972 on May 22, 2020, 12:53:12 am
R&S decimate the acquisition memory that gets displayed, probably to try and improve waveform update rate.
If you have a glitch, even if you have 20M points of memory, you won't see it. Looking for a pulse stream? You won't see it.
So while the sample rate remains at 10Gs/Sec or whatever, what you see is the waveform sampled at 10MS/Sec.  :wtf:

Now here's me thinking a scope is a tool to look at a signal.... 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: porker1972 on May 22, 2020, 01:00:50 am
..but MSO channels are just 1 bit, so by definition is peak detect. You won't get amplitude info, only 1 or 0 as set by the logic threshold.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on May 22, 2020, 10:14:55 am
I wanted to respond to confirm that not only does peak-detect mode affect how the digital channels are acquired, it affects how the current contents of the digital channels in acquisition memory are displayed.

I'm amazed that peak detect would have any effect on the digital channels.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on May 22, 2020, 10:25:05 am
I wanted to respond to confirm that not only does peak-detect mode affect how the digital channels are acquired, it affects how the current contents of the digital channels in acquisition memory are displayed.

I'm amazed that peak detect would have any effect on the digital channels.
Seems reasonable - normal mode samples on each time interval and shows either high or low, peak mode samples at the highest rate and shows high, low, or a mixture of both
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: thinkfat on May 22, 2020, 12:16:28 pm
/* this boolean can be true, false, or -1 */
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on May 22, 2020, 12:35:52 pm
I wanted to respond to confirm that not only does peak-detect mode affect how the digital channels are acquired, it affects how the current contents of the digital channels in acquisition memory are displayed.
I'm amazed that peak detect would have any effect on the digital channels.
Seems reasonable - normal mode samples on each time interval and shows either high or low, peak mode samples at the highest rate and shows high, low, or a mixture of both
Indeed! R&S just followed the definition of peak-detect for displaying 'digital' signals too and that isn't wrong. From a functional point of view a digital channel is sampled using 2 discrete states instead of 1024 (or more/less depending on the ADC) but it still is a signal.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on July 02, 2020, 09:38:42 pm
Speaking of---Rich, any idea when the next firmware update is coming? I reckon stuff got delayed a lot by COVID measures.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Kittel99 on July 15, 2020, 06:34:26 am
Yesterday I asked in Munich for a new firmware release date for RTB2004 and today I got a fast response from the customer support center:
It was planned to give a new release in 2. quarter, but due to pandemic it is shifted now to autumn.

Best regards
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maximevince on August 08, 2020, 05:23:20 am
I'll take the opportunity to plug a request again,

An event A followed by an event B trigger, channel and pattern. Maybe the same or related to the edge A/B request below.

Thanks Rich,

Joel

Hi all,


- new Trigger types: Runt, Rise time, Edge A/B
  (here I contacted already R+S Munich and I have got a feedback: reserved for RTB3000...
   sorry, but all other 400,-€ scopes can do this...)



Thanks.  I'll make sure Munich hears this again. 

And just an update on the next RTB2000 firmware.  No firm date, but one is in progress.  As I get more details I'll post them up.

-Rich

Hi Rich, any update on the new firmware?
The latest one on the website ( www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000 (http://www.rohde-schwarz.com/firmware/rtb2000) ) is still indicating:
R&S®RTB2000 Firmware Version 02.202    46 MB    02.202    04-Dec-2018

Thanks for any updates!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: richtoy on August 11, 2020, 09:37:45 am
Yesterday I asked in Munich for a new firmware release date for RTB2004 and today I got a fast response from the customer support center:
It was planned to give a new release in 2. quarter, but due to pandemic it is shifted now to autumn.

Best regards
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Kean on August 21, 2020, 09:38:43 am
I cannot establish a network connection to IP port 5025. With Telnet (Windows 7) I cannot establish a connection. With a self-written program I can create a network connection, but no data is received when sending e.g. *IDN?
The LXI connection over the network works without problems. Changing the port does not help, even rebooting the oscilloscope does not help.

Can anyone receive data from port 5025?

Works for me.  I can send *IDN? and get a response.
I used PuTTY in Raw mode.  It doesn't work in telnet mode, possibly due to problems with telnet protocol negotiation.

Edit to add: Also keep in mind that queries and responses are CR terminated, no LF - so your receiving program needs to handle that.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Kean on August 21, 2020, 11:27:54 am
I have used my network setting with manual IP address again. Only gateway and DNS I set to 127.0.0.1.
After a reboot the connection works, for whatever reason. The termination character is LF (\x0A), is received and sent by the RTB2000.

Glad you got it working.  Sorry, you are right - it is LF not CR.

My RTB is using DHCP.  I just tapped on the network icon at top right of the screen to get the current IP address allocation to use with PuTTY.
I don't believe I've done anything special to make it work.  It is possibly the first time I've tried port 5025 with it, and it worked first go.
I often use Python and vxi11 library or USB serial to control other gear like my HMC8042, HMC8012, 34970A, TH7321, etc, but not yet with the RTB.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on September 22, 2020, 10:29:08 pm
I've just had a very odd problem today with my RTB2k, and was wondering if anyone else had seen it or had any suggestions.

While using the scope today I noticed an unexpected offset on one channel that appeared after fiddling with probe attenuation factors (I was setting a custom Amps/V ratio). It seemed to behave bizzarely, not scaling as expected with attenuation factor which suggested a software rather than hardware fault. Seeing this I did a "Secure erase" to try and reset everything (should probably have just done a "Factory Defaults" in the save/load setup menu, but I forgot where this was at the time).
After the secure erase, EVERY channel was displaying an offset, and I noticed that the "Zero Adjust" setting was set to -39mV. When I attempted to adjust this it would flick to +39mV and then change no further. No other value can be entered either by SCPI, onscreen or with the rotary control; every attempt returns a high or low out-of-range error. When probe attenuation ratios are changed this zero offset also changes, but seems to scale oddly as well - e.g. going from 1:1 to 10:1 increased it to 3.9V rather than 390mV. Self alignment failed with a "Info: Error zeroAdjLimit -0.039000V < 0.03V" message in the log file (there is another numeric onscreen error code I can grab if needed).

With no other obvious option I tried some older firmware versions - anything up to and including 2.000 works fine and even allows the zero adjust value to be changed as intended (self alignment works too). Unfortunately the same problem returns when upgrading back beyond 2.000 (other than the Zero Adjust value actually increasing to 44mV and staying there). The fact that previous firmware works (and I think the probe cal routine shows normal voltages too, though I didn't test that thoroughly) points pretty strongly to a software bug.

Rich, anyone, any ideas on a fix? Am I missing something obvious? Not being able to use recent FW is a massive issue!
I have no idea of warranty state, it was a US launch promo unit and I now have it in the UK, but I hope such an clear software issue is still covered by R&S, whether in a firmware fix (obviously the easiest) or otherwise.

Attached screenshot shows the problem with open inputs and a couple different attenuation ratios (and 2 channels flipped to the other offset polarity).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on September 23, 2020, 12:27:24 am
My scope is on 2.202 and I tried to get it to do something similar and could not. While playing I noticed that I had about 4mV of offset on channel 1 at 10mV/div. The zero adjust worked as expected to dial it out.

Seems your scope is in some odd state.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on September 23, 2020, 10:54:59 pm
OK so I did some further digging and it looks like this is a combination of hardware and software faults.

Looking at the self alignment log and comparing it to an older one that I was lucky to have kept, it seems that channel 3 does indeed have an offset issue - the DCVGA calibration section log shows a greatly increased offset voltage required to zero the VGA output when using it's "Low Gain" (10dB) pre-amp setting (plus 8dB output amp = 18dB gain shown in log file). The (new) required offset reaches about 5x that required for any other channel. There is no substantial change from the previous (good) log for V/div settings when the High Gain (30dB) mode is active.

The VGA is a LMH6518, with the datasheet spending quite a few graphs on the offset vs gain mode (giving 3 example units rather than just a "typical" graph), so it seems that it's something that needs to be carefully accounted for, hence I guess all the calibration steps used.

The VGA output offset going out of spec on one range certainly explains the first symptoms I saw (including the odd scaling of the offset and being present on some V/div settings but not others) and also accounts for the alignment log. What it doesn't account for is the massive difference between firmware versions.

2.000 and earlier firmware is quite happy to calibrate the increased offset out (it's still there if you do an alignment on the older fimware and check the log) without any obvious problem - the channel in question seems to work fine when I compared it to another one.

Later firmware on the other hand refuses to complete the alignment (with no differences in the log up until the zeroAdjLimit error) then does the bizzare fixed Zero Adjust thing on every channel, making it basically unusable. I think that I did attempt an alignment before the secure erase so I'm not completely sure what triggered the change from the single channel problem into all 4 playing up.

I'll have a go at seeing if I can this fixed under warranty, though it is 3.5 years old so I may need to rely on R&S's goodwill. If unsuccessful I at least have a probable angle on a hardware fix. That said, the firmware clearly shouldn't behave as it does when a calibration value is out of spec (but still in a usable range) - it should at least give a warning or something rather than leave the instrument unusable!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on September 24, 2020, 06:17:25 am
I had a similar issue with my RTB2004 early this year and luckily it was still within warranty but getting dangerously close to expiration. This is what I sent to R&S describing the issue:

"Yesterday when I turned it on channel 2 had a permanent DC offset about ~1-2 divisions in height with nothing connected to the input. As I changed the vertical sensitivity the size of the offset remained fixed at that same ~1-2 divisions, it didn't shrink with larger V/div settings. I checked that it wasn't because of offset or position settings, the offset remained after restoring factory defaults. Strangely it would disappear at 2 specific vertical sensitivities. The vertical sensitivity range is divided into a high and low range separated by an audible relay click when you transition between them at 150 mV/div (1:1 probe ratio). At the highest sensitivity of those two ranges the offset would suddenly be gone. i.e. at the 1 and 2 mV/div settings and then again after the relay click at the 200 mV/div setting. In all other V/div settings the offset was there.

I was sure there was a hardware problem by then but I ran the self-alignment routine because I wanted to exhaust all potential fixes and I thought you would want to see the results. So I ran the self-alignment (after full warm-up) and then a 77 mV offset appeared on ALL channels. See photo "RTB2000 permanent offset.jpg". This time the offset did grow and shrink with changing vertical sensitivity, through the entire range. 77 mV appears to be the maximum of the "zero offset" setting per channel. If I try to adjust the number myself the setting instantly changes to -77 mV and doesn't respond to any further changes. Restoring factory defaults returns it to +77 mV. I power cycled the scope, including shutting of the hard switch on the back for several seconds and then tried running the self-alignment again and it failed with the message:

"Channel: 0
Alignment not possible.
Description: 201-59.0:6"

I tried self alignment again and it failed with the same message."

R&S support was very responsive but they wouldn't handle the warranty claim directly, I had to go through the vendor. After all was said and done they replaced it with a new unit.

Of note, the new unit had a 2020 cal sticker on it (none on my original) and the hardware revision numbers were the same as my first one.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on September 24, 2020, 07:54:40 am
Thanks for the reply - sounds like the exact same issue as I have, even down to certain portions of each relay range working (It looks like the high-gain pre-amp setting is used for 1-5mV/div and then 200mV/div, with low-gain used everywhere else).

I didn't spend as long diagnosing the initial offset as you did - I was in the middle of an urgent debug task and wanted it fixed ASAP so I reached for self alignment/factory reset/secure erase before investigating fully (wish I'd played around a bit more, or even dumped the flash as described in a different topic). Note that I didn't have anything dangerous connected to the input of the problem channel - just a AM503 current probe "amplifier" which can only output a few hundred millivolts max.

As for warranty, I might be a bit stuck there, as noted I'm just _outside_ 3 years, and returning to the vendor would be an extremely slow and expensive process given they're in a different country.
I'll still see if I can get some local support, but it might be a job for the hot air gun and some crossed fingers (this also assumes the stupid all-channel-offset firmware bug will be resolved once the VGA is in-spec). Not blaming R&S for the VGA semi-failing (it's marketed for the exact use seen here and used by many manufacturers) but the way the self alignment dealt with it is crazy.

Edit: Are the black bits on the knobs a DIY addition btw? Don't match mine which are all grey.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on September 24, 2020, 01:48:43 pm
Thanks for the reply - sounds like the exact same issue as I have, even down to certain portions of each relay range working (It looks like the high-gain pre-amp setting is used for 1-5mV/div and then 200mV/div, with low-gain used everywhere else).

I didn't spend as long diagnosing the initial offset as you did - I was in the middle of an urgent debug task and wanted it fixed ASAP so I reached for self alignment/factory reset/secure erase before investigating fully (wish I'd played around a bit more, or even dumped the flash as described in a different topic). Note that I didn't have anything dangerous connected to the input of the problem channel - just a AM503 current probe "amplifier" which can only output a few hundred millivolts max.

As for warranty, I might be a bit stuck there, as noted I'm just _outside_ 3 years, and returning to the vendor would be an extremely slow and expensive process given they're in a different country.
I'll still see if I can get some local support, but it might be a job for the hot air gun and some crossed fingers (this also assumes the stupid all-channel-offset firmware bug will be resolved once the VGA is in-spec). Not blaming R&S for the VGA semi-failing (it's marketed for the exact use seen here and used by many manufacturers) but the way the self alignment dealt with it is crazy.

Edit: Are the black bits on the knobs a DIY addition btw? Don't match mine which are all grey.
Hi Hydron - I talked with the R&D team this morning and it sounds like there is for sure a hardware issue (there were also some changes around SW in newer revisions, but nothing that would cause what you're seeing).  I'll PM you to see if I can help on the warranty side.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on September 24, 2020, 01:57:09 pm
I don't think I ever probed anything dangerous with the channel that failed either, the offset was just there on boot-up one day. It's very interesting that older firmware can bypass the issue and restore full control, I figured it was an inescapable hardware fault. I never thought to look into the self alignment log, I wish I had done that. It always helps to have another data point.

I'd also expect fixing the bad channel to fix the all-offset problem. My guess is the self-alignment routine never expected to see an offset it couldn't get rid of and so as an unintended consequence it puts an offset on all the channels to get them to match each other.

Yes, I added the black tape to the knobs. The tape has a rough grippy texture and so I don't have to apply so much finger pressure when turning the knobs. The smooth surface of the knobs combined with the turning resistance and detents gets a little fatiguing after a while. I liked the difference enough that I reapplied it to the replacement scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: norks on September 24, 2020, 04:56:09 pm
Greetings All,

Just thought I'd share my recent service experience with Rohde & Schwarz when my RTB2004 suddenly died earlier this month. [...]
They arranged for prepaid FedEx shipping to their Maryland shop and total turnaround time was about 2 weeks. [...]

I just saw this. That's great you had such a trouble-free experience, I wish I had the same. My experience had some of the typical signs of big companies and the small-time customers that get a lower level of attention. When I had a warranty claim R&S support was very good responding to my issue. After they concluded it should be sent in and handed me off to R&S Service they told me this:

"I was able to pull this up and it looks like the unit was purchased through test equity.
You would need to go through them to have the unit sent in for service, as we are unable to set up accounts for a single person.
I hope this helps and I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused."

My vendor was actually Tequipment so I dealt with them. RMA was approved and I had to ship the scope to Maryland on my dime. Deciding how to do that was stressful because if the scope never makes it there then I just lose my scope, end of story. As small as that chance is it's a scary possibility. So do I insure for the launch price? The current $3700 sale price? What if it arrives physically damaged by the shipper and there's a drawn out process that ends with R&S denying the warranty and the scope is back to regular price by then? I'm looking at shipping choices ranging from about $80 to $180. That's real money to someone like me. I end up opting for $3000 insurance and crossed my fingers.

I don't hear anything for a while. The R&S RMA status page shows service complete. R&S Service won't tell me any information other than it was already shipped (because Tequipment is their customer on file, not me). I find out from Tequipment that it was shipped to the address on the original order 3 years ago rather than my updated account address, and tracking showed it was delivered over a week ago. Did I mention it was stressful? Fortunately I still had a way to contact the people that live there now, and they were honest people, and it was only an hour away. In total it was about 5 1/2 weeks beginning to end. For their part Tequipment apologized and said they would review what happened, they were supposed to confirm my shipping address in writing. No, it didn't make me feel any better about it. Everyone makes mistakes, and for the agent that handled the RMA I'm sure it was a very easy mistake to make on autopilot, but man what a nightmare it could have been for me.

And now seeing that perhaps I didn't have to take on the risk and cost of shipping myself if I had dealt with the right people pours some salt in the wound. Or maybe it's a policy difference between the US and Canadian markets. I'm not blaming R&S for what happened, they didn't make any clear mistakes. But their choice to be a step removed had a contribution and made room for more human error in the process. And if they had been willing to deal with me directly there's greater chance the old address could have been caught before the new scope shipped.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on September 25, 2020, 01:08:27 am
I don't think I ever probed anything dangerous with the channel that failed either, the offset was just there on boot-up one day. It's very interesting that older firmware can bypass the issue and restore full control, I figured it was an inescapable hardware fault. I never thought to look into the self alignment log, I wish I had done that. It always helps to have another data point.

I'd also expect fixing the bad channel to fix the all-offset problem. My guess is the self-alignment routine never expected to see an offset it couldn't get rid of and so as an unintended consequence it puts an offset on all the channels to get them to match each other.

Yes, I added the black tape to the knobs. The tape has a rough grippy texture and so I don't have to apply so much finger pressure when turning the knobs. The smooth surface of the knobs combined with the turning resistance and detents gets a little fatiguing after a while. I liked the difference enough that I reapplied it to the replacement scope.

You know what? I had the same kind of response. I had a probe that went intermittent, R&S said no problem you don't have to send it back we'll take care of it. Never happened! Called back a couple of months later and got someone else, said who told you that? Never gave me an RMA, nothing. OK, it's just a probe but if I had a major problem I would have been more aggressive. Got better treatment from Tek, see who gets my next scope order (better probes too - a lot better!).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Harjit on September 27, 2020, 02:25:25 am
A couple of feature requests that are very helpful when working with capacitors and inductors - esp. on power converters, motors, etc.:

1) Automatic time constant calculation
a) Select the channel.
b) Use horizontal and vertical cursors and it shows you the time constant (and voltage) assume the cursors are set at Vmin, Vmax, Tmin and Tmax.
c) Bonus show cross hair on the trace.

2) Calculate slope
a) Select the channel
b) Use horizontal and vertical cursors and it shows you the slope assume the cursors are set at Vmin, Vmax, Tmin and Tmax.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: glowman on September 30, 2020, 01:08:05 pm
I don't think I ever probed anything dangerous with the channel that failed either, the offset was just there on boot-up one day. It's very interesting that older firmware can bypass the issue and restore full control, I figured it was an inescapable hardware fault. I never thought to look into the self alignment log, I wish I had done that. It always helps to have another data point.

I'd also expect fixing the bad channel to fix the all-offset problem. My guess is the self-alignment routine never expected to see an offset it couldn't get rid of and so as an unintended consequence it puts an offset on all the channels to get them to match each other.

Yes, I added the black tape to the knobs. The tape has a rough grippy texture and so I don't have to apply so much finger pressure when turning the knobs. The smooth surface of the knobs combined with the turning resistance and detents gets a little fatiguing after a while. I liked the difference enough that I reapplied it to the replacement scope.

You know what? I had the same kind of response. I had a probe that went intermittent, R&S said no problem you don't have to send it back we'll take care of it. Never happened! Called back a couple of months later and got someone else, said who told you that? Never gave me an RMA, nothing. OK, it's just a probe but if I had a major problem I would have been more aggressive. Got better treatment from Tek, see who gets my next scope order (better probes too - a lot better!).

I had the opposite of what you have experienced on R&S.  I also had a small problem on 1 of the probes.  It was just a loose connection of the x1,x10 switch.  While moving the switch from x10 to x1 prior to changing the probe settings, I noticed multiple jitter of the waveform i'm probing, indicating it has a loose connection.  I told R&S about it.  Without any hassle, he sent me a RT-ZP10 as a replacement since the standard probe was not available yet.  I chose to just settle for it since it is a 500mhz probe costing $440! (standard probe costs only $105). Asking if I have to send back my probe to them, they said to just keep it.  I even told him it was practically fixed after I sprayed it with contact cleaner.  Again, he told me to just keep the new one!  Wow, that's customer service at its finest.

I am from Philippines and bought my RTB2004 from R&S Philippines.  I was initially planning to ask my friend to buy it from USA and send it to me.  I'm glad I did not choose that option and chose to buy it locally.  Price and service had been excellent.  Even with the Bode Plot option which I'm entitled to get for free (from getting PK1 option) at that time, they were the one bugging me to give them my details so they can process it already.  It should have been me bugging them. :-+

By the way, RT-ZP10 is a high quality probe with spring loaded tip.  It has "Made in Germany" printed along the cable sheath.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 1design on September 30, 2020, 03:47:48 pm
The probes are a genuine issue, I had to fix 3 out of 4 probes, 2 of those have never been used.

Issues:

Now I have 4 probes, all with different cable lengths...but hey, at least they work now.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on September 30, 2020, 07:58:03 pm
Huh, certainly sounds like you got some bad luck (or a bad batch). Haven't had an issue with any of mine other than one of the spring clips (witch's hats) being a bit sticky at first.

The RTB2k probes are made by "Hong Kong Texas" (http://www.hktexas.hk/en/index.html (http://www.hktexas.hk/en/index.html)), a few other manufacturers use them too for their low-mid range probe offerings. I suspect the higher end R&S ones are from PMK (https://www.pmk.de/en/products (https://www.pmk.de/en/products)).

As for my offset issue, am waiting on R&S to see what they can do, but am almost completely certain it's the LMH6518, which thankfully is a $10 part and should be relatively easy to replace - if I end up needing to do so I'll post pics and results here.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on October 01, 2020, 01:02:20 pm
Huh, certainly sounds like you got some bad luck (or a bad batch). Haven't had an issue with any of mine other than one of the spring clips (witch's hats) being a bit sticky at first.

The RTB2k probes are made by "Hong Kong Texas" (http://www.hktexas.hk/en/index.html (http://www.hktexas.hk/en/index.html)), a few other manufacturers use them too for their low-mid range probe offerings. I suspect the higher end R&S ones are from PMK (https://www.pmk.de/en/products (https://www.pmk.de/en/products)).

As for my offset issue, am waiting on R&S to see what they can do, but am almost completely certain it's the LMH6518, which thankfully is a $10 part and should be relatively easy to replace - if I end up needing to do so I'll post pics and results here.

They pale in comparison to Tek probes, even on the lower priced Tek scopes. My Tek scopes had a better overall build too.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Weston on October 18, 2020, 07:09:12 am
I am working on FPGAs where I can put down a dedicated debug connector and I was tired of all the flying leads (and had some noise pickup from that) so I made an adapter PCB to break out the RTB2004 LA pod to a 0.05" connector.

Figured I might as well share it here in case anyone else would find it useful: https://github.com/westonb/utility-pcbs/tree/main/LA_Adapter

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on October 18, 2020, 10:04:24 pm
There's a new firmware update, 2.300.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 18, 2020, 10:17:50 pm
There's a new firmware update, 2.300.

Quote
Maximum  channel  probe attenuation user factor expands  to 10M  for unit 'V'.
There has to be a story behind why that got added....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on October 18, 2020, 10:52:03 pm
Thanks for the heads up. Added option to beep on trigger (or a few other things) gets a thumbs up from me. Not a major update like some previous ones though.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on October 21, 2020, 07:52:47 pm
Well I attempted the update and I'm moving into hour two of nothing happening.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ppeterl on October 21, 2020, 08:14:47 pm
Ooops scary shit, let us know how it turns out! I'll hold my update for a bit then...

--/Peter
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Micke on October 21, 2020, 09:02:47 pm
Yes, upps...  :-[
This week I have upgraded two RTB2004 (my private and the one at work) from 02.202 to 02.300, went very quick and without problems.
The FW updater looks to be safe, it seems to inspect and validate FW image (CRC check?) before doing actual update.
Hope you get it sorted!


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on October 21, 2020, 09:50:33 pm
 :popcorn: Yea, every other update went off without a hitch.  :-BROKE

Ok, I had a minute so I turned it off with the soft power button and turned it back on. Booted right into the firmware update page. Pressed update and it very quickly updated.  :-// At least it worked even if it decided to try and die on me. It's my favorite scope here so I'd be pretty disappointed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maginnovision on October 22, 2020, 03:44:06 pm
I just wanted to update. I had sent a message to R&S through GLORIS and this morning a TSE got back to me advising rebooting and retrying the update via another method. Apparently another customer with an RTA had a similar issue of mid-update failure which recovered just fine. So seems like the power of 10 scopes are fairly good about failing at a point that doesn't brick the scope at least.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on October 22, 2020, 08:05:58 pm
That's indeed a bit weird, but as long as the error is recoverable, I'm not too concerned. I'll try the update today.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: korlatos on October 22, 2020, 09:05:39 pm
I did the update yesterday without any issues.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: uski on October 26, 2020, 03:03:48 am
Hi,

I am pretty interested in the RTB2004. However, with several competitors offering hackable scopes, I don't think I am going to purchase one. That's probably the only blocker for me.

Is there any promotion that I am not aware of that allow removing the bandwidth limitation ?

This will truly be for non-profit / educational use. Can provide teaching/research credentials.

Thanks
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: sithrebel15 on October 26, 2020, 04:18:40 am
They have some new bundles launching soon but they still only have the base bandwidth.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: uski on October 26, 2020, 04:50:32 am
They have some new bundles launching soon but they still only have the base bandwidth.

Yeah I saw that and this is what I considered buying... if there was a way to also get the highest bandwidth.
Otherwise I'll go with Siglent  :-//

R&S is welcome to send me a PM should they want to help me find a solution.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Weston on October 26, 2020, 05:16:02 am
They have some new bundles launching soon but they still only have the base bandwidth.

Yeah I saw that and this is what I considered buying... if there was a way to also get the highest bandwidth.
Otherwise I'll go with Siglent  :-//

R&S is welcome to send me a PM should they want to help me find a solution.

Its still not at price parity, but TEquipment (and I think other places) have educational pricing for the RTB2004. The full package is discounted to ~ $3.2k. https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/)

Still not the best deal for a scope if you only look at the bandwidth per dollar, but I found the edu discount compelling enough to buy the scope and I have been very happy with it.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on October 26, 2020, 01:41:45 pm
I'm happy with the 2.300 firmware update! It's mostly small things, but some are valuable to me.

Not in the least the ability to store screenshots in internal memory. This way, I no longer have to connect a USB hub to the front port to connect both a flash drive and a mouse (which I like to use on longer sessions).

Also the solved crash when loading data into the pattern generator is something I appreciate... Wanted to do several things that were restricted by this crash.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: sithrebel15 on October 31, 2020, 04:57:32 am
They have some new bundles launching soon but they still only have the base bandwidth.

Yeah I saw that and this is what I considered buying... if there was a way to also get the highest bandwidth.
Otherwise I'll go with Siglent  :-//

R&S is welcome to send me a PM should they want to help me find a solution.

It looks like the thread on figuring out how it ticks has taken off in the last month. We'll have to see if anything happens there.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: sithrebel15 on October 31, 2020, 04:59:31 am
They have some new bundles launching soon but they still only have the base bandwidth.

Yeah I saw that and this is what I considered buying... if there was a way to also get the highest bandwidth.
Otherwise I'll go with Siglent  :-//

R&S is welcome to send me a PM should they want to help me find a solution.

Its still not at price parity, but TEquipment (and I think other places) have educational pricing for the RTB2004. The full package is discounted to ~ $3.2k. https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB2K-COM4/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/)

Still not the best deal for a scope if you only look at the bandwidth per dollar, but I found the edu discount compelling enough to buy the scope and I have been very happy with it.

I definitely wouldn't buy that until the new bundles are listed. They have a discount built in plus the education discount will stack on top of it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Frank_MV on November 12, 2020, 07:23:46 pm
Does anyone know an app for Win 10, which allows me to create arbitrary curves (csv file) for the RTB2000 ?
It would also be good if I could modify csv curves stored in RTB2000.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on November 12, 2020, 10:19:37 pm
Does anyone know an app for Win 10, which allows me to create arbitrary curves (csv file) for the RTB2000 ?
It would also be good if I could modify csv curves stored in RTB2000.

.csv files can be usually created or edited in Excel or the LibreOffice equivalent.

Description of the .csv file format:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma-separated_values (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma-separated_values)

HTH
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Frank_MV on November 13, 2020, 07:28:09 am
Great, thanks
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: agdr on November 14, 2020, 06:57:18 am
I just did the V 2.3 update.  All went well!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Frank_MV on November 19, 2020, 09:27:55 am
Thanks.

I have a question about the operation of the RTB2000 touch screen.
I use a stylus that I once bought for my cell phone.
It works fine for selecting menu items, but not for drawing and labeling.
When I draw a line it is interrupted in many places.
Does anyone know a good pen for the RTB touch screen ?

br,
Frank

U
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on November 19, 2020, 12:42:23 pm
Rich, I have these thoughts:

It would be nice to add the ability to arbitrarily change the color of the waveform in one of the next firmware updates. It is difficult for people with color perception to distinguish between yellow and green with low contrast relative to each other. This is especially true for 2-channel models. It is not for nothing that many oscilloscopes have yellow and cyan colors, which are easily distinguishable by everyone.

Max.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 19, 2020, 05:12:59 pm
Working on my RTB2004 yesterday, I suddenly realised there were a low pass filter and a high pass filter in the math functions! Pretty sure they were not there before (I updated the firmware to 2.300 a week ago or so)... But now they are there, and work as expected!

So, checked the manual. Indeed, the manual for firmware 2.2xx does not describe such filters, but the manual for firmware 2.300 does (in Sections 6.2.4 and 6.2.5). Strangely, the firmware release notes do not mention a thing about this.

(Hope this is not old news to you all, but at least I feel happy ;-)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on November 19, 2020, 08:31:22 pm
It certainly is news to me, and I'm pretty sure I would have noticed by now if it had been in previous firmware! Not gonna complain about that addition (even though it is not particularly quick).

Rich, I have these thoughts:

It would be nice to add the ability to arbitrarily change the color of the waveform in one of the next firmware updates. It is difficult for people with color perception to distinguish between yellow and green with low contrast relative to each other. This is especially true for 2-channel models. It is not for nothing that many oscilloscopes have yellow and cyan colors, which are easily distinguishable by everyone.

Max.
I think this has been raised before; it's not important for me personally but given the control layout and RGB channel indicator LEDs it might be possible to do it in a very elegant way (albeit maybe with a control panel FW upgrade in addition to the mainboard FW).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on November 20, 2020, 02:15:46 am
Oh, nice. The LPF and HPF used to be RTM exclusive.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on November 20, 2020, 07:41:12 am
So they added filters in math CH. Those are very useful. It would be better if filters were in channel setup directly, so they don't take up math channels...
Lowly Micsig has filters in channels, and they are implemented in acquisition engine, so they don't slow down scope when working..
I wish more manufacturers would do it this way.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Frank_MV on November 20, 2020, 12:13:58 pm
Thanks.

I have a question about the operation of the RTB2000 touch screen.
I use a stylus that I once bought for my cell phone.
It works fine for selecting menu items, but not for drawing and labeling.
When I draw a line it is interrupted in many places.
Does anyone know a good pen for the RTB touch screen ?

br,
Frank



Update:
What do you think of this pen
https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B01ADAHAYA/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=richi579-21&camp=1638&creative=6742&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B01ADAHBYY&linkId=28dcffc8a931466620e0b30100000e19&th=1 (https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B01ADAHAYA/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=richi579-21&camp=1638&creative=6742&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B01ADAHBYY&linkId=28dcffc8a931466620e0b30100000e19&th=1)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on November 20, 2020, 05:58:21 pm
Rich, I have these thoughts:

It would be nice to add the ability to arbitrarily change the color of the waveform in one of the next firmware updates. It is difficult for people with color perception to distinguish between yellow and green with low contrast relative to each other. This is especially true for 2-channel models. It is not for nothing that many oscilloscopes have yellow and cyan colors, which are easily distinguishable by everyone.

Max.
Hi Max - I'll pass this on.  You probably already know you can change the waveforms to different intensity graded views which may help, but I like your idea in general (and it is something we offer on our RTE/RTO/RTP models).  We are often trying to find that right mix of being easy for everyone to use, while still offering flexibility for power users, but it seems like this would be an easy add to the waveform color menu that already exists (without adding too much complexity).

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 20, 2020, 07:09:28 pm
but it seems like this would be an easy add to the waveform color menu that already exists (without adding too much complexity).
And as you have PWM LED drivers on the front panel board, it would also be easy to make the button colours match.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 20, 2020, 08:15:09 pm
I must say that I am very happy with the 2.300 firmware upgrade for the RTB. Apart from some needed fixes, I find several new functions very useful. My favourites: the new Trigger Action function (handy when triggering on infrequent signals like serial bus messages) and now also the new LPF and HPF in the math section.

I want to applaud R&S for that.

Also want to draw some parallels. In the field of photography, Fujifilm was the first to issue a serious series of firmware upgrades for its X100 camera, not only providing fixes and performance improvements but also new functionality. They kept doing so even long after the camera was succeeded by new versions. Friend and foe now agree that this provided the company goodwill, satisfied customers, and importantly, a very loyal customer base. They raised the bar for others.

In the field of (music) synthesizers, there is a (sad) range of examples of companies that brough products to the market too early. Instead of doing proper firmware updates, they then rushed to launch newer versions, leaving their first customers users with unstable instruments and promises never fulfilled. (I will not name them, musicians will know some companies I talk about). No need to say, many musicians will never buy anything from such brands again.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Frank_MV on November 21, 2020, 09:09:09 am
Olympus is doing the same with the cameras, there will be updates with new features over a longer period of time to the delight of customers.

That was one of the reasons I decided to join Olympus.
Off-Topic End  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ElectronMan on November 21, 2020, 09:57:16 pm
Far from an optimal test setup, but I am quite surprised how long the RTB2004's counter can hang onto a sine-wave.

This is using a 500MHz probe FWIW. Just something I noticed while playing around with an R&S SME-03 sig gen.

[attach=1]
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: uski on November 21, 2020, 10:52:50 pm
Has there been any update with the latest firmware regarding the maximum number of protocol decoders enabled at the same time ?

Last I heard was a maximum of two, and RX/TX serial decode counts as two decoder, so basically if you decode one UART, you are using all the decoders.

I was hoping R&S would increase this limit to at least 3, ideally 4-5 !

Thanks
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on November 21, 2020, 11:09:36 pm
I seem to recall it not sounding promising due to HW (FPGA) limitations - this has been asked about for over 3 years now. I haven't checked FW 2.3 yet though for more hidden additions - more decodes would be a major bonus!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 22, 2020, 09:18:56 am
Quote
Has there been any update with the latest firmware regarding the maximum number of protocol decoders enabled at the same time ?

Last I heard was a maximum of two, and RX/TX serial decode counts as two decoder, so basically if you decode one UART, you are using all the decoders.

Interesting you mention that. It seems I cannot decode SPI and CAN at the same time. When  I activate 'decode' of SPI on Bus B1, a CAN protocol on bus B2 is disabled (?!?). It greys out both in the vertical menu, as in the bottom menu (see screenshot). I made sure they do not overlap in the input channels used (by using the MSO).

[attach=1]

If I do something wrong, please tell me.

But if this is indeed yet another limitation with the RTB, then this is too bad. Even my PicoScope 3405D and the much cheaper PicoScope 2000 series models can do multiple protocols at the same time with no problems. For the RTB, serial decoding is a rather expensive option, and still seems to have serious limitations in terms of usage.

Also wondering where/wether R&S provides more specific information on these limitations? I might overlook it, but the only relevant text on this in the manual I am finding is:

Quote
You can configure 2 protocol buses and select one of the configured buses for analysis.

The R&S RTx-K1, -K2, -K3, -K5, -K6, -K7 Serial Protocol Triggering and Decoding – Fact Sheet (https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/Option_sheet_-_RTx-K1_-K2_-K3_-K5_-K6_-K7_serial_protocol_triggering_and_decoding_v1.10.pdf), which applies to the RTB, says:

Quote
Trigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals.

And does not mention any limitation (!) At the page bottom, it provides an URL for 'further information', but this is a broken link.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 22, 2020, 09:54:49 am
Maybe I should be a bit clearer on my position here. If a company like R&S wants to diversify its various products offerings (in terms of osciloscopes: RTB, RTM, RTA, etc.) then I think that is perfectly legitimate.

However, when you sell software options (RTB-K1, RTB-K2, RTB-K3) for appropriately 600 Euro each, which specifically and only add serial decode options, and issue a data sheet (https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/Option_sheet_-_RTx-K1_-K2_-K3_-K5_-K6_-K7_serial_protocol_triggering_and_decoding_v1.10.pdf) for precisely these software options that literally states “Trigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals”, without listing any exceptions, then you are obliged to actually deliver this!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on November 22, 2020, 11:22:52 am
Quote
Has there been any update with the latest firmware regarding the maximum number of protocol decoders enabled at the same time ?

Last I heard was a maximum of two, and RX/TX serial decode counts as two decoder, so basically if you decode one UART, you are using all the decoders.

Interesting you mention that. It seems I cannot decode SPI and CAN at the same time. When  I activate 'decode' of SPI on Bus B1, a CAN protocol on bus B2 is disabled (?!?). It greys out both in the vertical menu, as in the bottom menu (see screenshot). I made sure they do not overlap in the input channels used (by using the MSO).

(Attachment Link)

If I do something wrong, please tell me.

But if this is indeed yet another limitation with the RTB, then this is too bad. Even my PicoScope 3405D and the much cheaper PicoScope 2000 series models can do multiple protocols at the same time with no problems. For the RTB, serial decoding is a rather expensive option, and still seems to have serious limitations in terms of usage.

Also wondering where/wether R&S provides more specific information on these limitations? I might overlook it, but the only relevant text on this in the manual I am finding is:

Quote
You can configure 2 protocol buses and select one of the configured buses for analysis.

The R&S RTx-K1, -K2, -K3, -K5, -K6, -K7 Serial Protocol Triggering and Decoding – Fact Sheet (https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/Option_sheet_-_RTx-K1_-K2_-K3_-K5_-K6_-K7_serial_protocol_triggering_and_decoding_v1.10.pdf), which applies to the RTB, says:

Quote
Trigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals.

And does not mention any limitation (!) At the page bottom, it provides an URL for 'further information', but this is a broken link.

They do. It's called datasheet. And is being discussed for years now.
Problem is in users. People keep buying cheapest R&S scope (RTB2000 is their entry level scope in power of 10 range), and expect it to have same features as expensive mid range scopes from R&S.
They don't and never will have. They have product range, and progressive featuresets as price progresses.
Expectations are users problem.

If you want entry level scope from premium manufacturer, buy RTB2000 . You will get limited features, good quality, nice design. And high price. Not best price/performance, but best luxury factor, you're paying for reputation. basically.
If you want more features, you either have to go with 2 tier manufacturers, who will give more features for less money, but will have different tradeoffs. Your choice.

You cannot buy R&S scope and expect it to have feature parity with 2 tier manufacturer for the same money.  They are catering to different market, and have different priorities..

That is, for instance, why thousands of professionals use Picoscope for decoding... It is best capability for money, and all on the PC that has big screen and easy transfer to other programs.
It has its own problems though. No protocol triggering for instance. But when you're capturing data in bulk it makes no difference anyways.

R&S scopes look gorgeous. You can expect R&S will have decent support. What features they have are working well (they debug if there are problems and fix).
But RTB2000 is a Fiat 500 of their range. Don't get confused with Ferrari badge.  It is not LaFerrari. It is small 1 liter car with all visual cues and equipment to make it look as Ferrari in design. You might get same navigation screen too.. But none of the powerful stuff.. But you will travel in style, and to 90% of people that is 100% of the car they need.

You want something different, buy something different, and something that explicitly state capabilities you need. So you know you will get it. Not expect..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: uski on November 22, 2020, 12:26:27 pm
Obviously R&S tries to get the most money possible, and there are marketing ways to do that including intentionally crippling the features of the "cheap" units. Doesn't take a PhD in marketing to understand this.

But as users we should not defend that. And there are always users who seem to do exactly that.
I don't know why, maybe to look cool, maybe to look interesting and superior, but I will never understand this type of reply.

I mean, what's next, ask to pay more for less features ? :-//

And don't get me started on the bandwidth upgrade options costing thousands... for hardware which is already there anyway. No idea how we accept this bullsh*t.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 22, 2020, 12:53:07 pm
@2N3055:

Quote
They do. It's called datasheet.

So we seem to be in agreement, that it is the datasheet that tells us what the instrument should be (at minimal) capable of.

Like I wrote before, it is stated in the datasheets that apply to the RTB-K1, RTB-K2, RTB-K3 software options (which are the specific software options for the RTB scope) that
Quote
"Trigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals."
And this data sheet does not list any reservation, any limitation or whatever.

If the datasheet unconditionally specifies it, then we cannot wave this away as an unreasonable expectation of the buyer of the instrument!

Again (and I am now repeating myself): I find it totally legitimate that R&S differentiates between their various offerings, like the RTB, RTM, RTA. But they do need, at minimum, to comply with the datasheets they publish for specific models.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on November 22, 2020, 01:41:12 pm
Obviously R&S tries to get the most money possible, and there are marketing ways to do that including intentionally crippling the features of the "cheap" units. Doesn't take a PhD in marketing to understand this.

But as users we should not defend that. And there are always users who seem to do exactly that.
I don't know why, maybe to look cool, maybe to look interesting and superior, but I will never understand this type of reply.

I mean, what's next, ask to pay more for less features ? :-//

And don't get me started on the bandwidth upgrade options costing thousands... for hardware which is already there anyway. No idea how we accept this bullsh*t.

Bandwidth and options are pricing policy. They have a right to do so.  And plenty of reasons in a whole scope of industry. Hobby users are very egocentric and don't understand whole ecosystem. Industrial practices a hard to change...

OTOH, you had choice before buying. Now you can only bitch about it. And they can laugh at it because they already took your money. Sticks and stones....

Only way to protest is NOT to buy product you have complaint about.  If you still buy it and then simply bitch about it on some forum, they don't care.
They achieved their objective: they took from you maximum money for minimum goods. Maximum profit. Brilliant for them, really..
As long as people are, well, stupid about it, in that way, they don't have any incentive to change...

Market doesn't work if people make non market decisions.

And to be clear, I'm not talking about R&S specifically here. I'm talking about every single participant on the market. R&S, Tektronix, Keysight, Rigol, Siglent, Micsig, Brymen.. etc.. whatever..

That is why Chinese B brands try to give you more, to bridge the gap of "noname brand with no reputation". And western brands with great reputation, are trying to squeeze "brand" by selling less and pretending it is more because "famous brand"....  It's up to user to see through these  games and make rational decision what instrument is technically correct for their use, taking into account price, support, specs, accessories, software, capabilities....

As for pricing, I really took an offense with R&S, that as an EU company, at beginning, for a limited time, made special price for RTB2000 in USA that was really attractive (if I remember 2100 USD for a full bandwidth and options RTB2004), and never since made anything even close in EU. That was a douche move. And I don't even want to buy RTB2000 series (I would at least need 3000/4000 series for my work), but I simply found that offensive. They could have sold 20 pieces in EU, as a symbolic gesture, at a parity price  in EU, but no.. They don't care for EU customers as much as those in USA.... That's the message... And guess what, that is true..
When I was deliberating whether to buy RTM3000 or Keysight MSOX300T, person that was most helpful, brilliant and altogether great man was Rich from USA R&S branch here on forum.  Thanks again to him, for all the great work he does.
But R&S as a company... meh... I'm sure they provide great support to big accounts, and government etc..  But as a company they are mostly oriented to that market. Small bussines, hobby, and such, not so much. And I honestly think it's not because they are asses or evil, but I think they DON'T understand that market well...

Regards,
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on November 22, 2020, 02:25:03 pm
@2N3055:

Quote
They do. It's called datasheet.

So we seem to be in agreement, that it is the datasheet that tells us what the instrument should be (at minimal) capable of.

Like I wrote before, it is stated in the datasheets that apply to the RTB-K1, RTB-K2, RTB-K3 software options (which are the specific software options for the RTB scope) that
Quote
"Trigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals."
And this data sheet does not list any reservation, any limitation or whatever.

If the datasheet unconditionally specifies it, then we cannot wave this away as an unreasonable expectation of the buyer of the instrument!

Again (and I am now repeating myself): I find it totally legitimate that R&S differentiates between their various offerings, like the RTB, RTM, RTA. But they do need, at minimum, to comply with the datasheets they publish for specific models.

I agree with you in general. But, as I said before, apart form datasheets, all other documents in big companies are being written (or at least edited) by lawyers nowadays, not engineers. Engineers contribute to it by giving base data, and then marketing and sales and legal departments make up phrases that are "technically correct" but sound better that they are.

I'm looking at datasheet now (Version 12.00, March 2020).  I can't find sentence you're quoting. What I can see is: "number of bus signals 2" with comment " If a bidirectional bus is used (e.g. UART RX/TX or SPI MOSI/MISO), two bus decoders are occupied".

It is right there...

I dug a bit more, and found a brochure called "R&S®RTx-K1, -K2, -K3, -K5, -K6, -K7  SERIAL PROTOCOL TRIGGERING AND DECODING, For R&S®RTB2000, R&S®RTM3000 and R&S®RTA4000 oscilloscopes"
In that one  they mention : "Decoding of up to four serial buses: Trigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals"

But they say "Up to", for a family of products 2000/3000/4000. Expensive 4000 series does 4 decodes.... They didn't lie. That is a brochure for a product family.

In datasheet for RTB2000 they correctly state, that you practically have 1 decoder to use, unless you do 2 I2C buses or some other unidirectional serial bus..

But that's fine, really.. It is entry level scope after all.  But 15000 USD retail RTM3000 also have only 1 bidir decode, and even more expensive RTA4000 series have 2 bidir decoders (yes those 4 are single direction, so only 2 UART decodes)

Keysight 3000T for instance has 2 decoders, full bidir...  So that would be equivalent of 4 in R&S RTA4000...

But all that is clearly written in datasheets. Those are tech specs. Brochures and other marketing materials are not to be trusted and are marketing bullshit mostly, designed to confuse customer and painting a rosy picture..

And it is obvious that R&S doesn't need to make more decoders available (even if the could add them, maybe resources are limited), because it is obvious that current number of decoders is sufficient.
And we know for sure they are sufficient, because people keep buying it despite nominaly very limited decoding. Once they stop buying, and quote low number of decoding channels, they might make a change.
Until then, there will be no change.

Same is with Keysight 3000T (and 4000/6000 Infiniivision series). Everybody and their mother are bitching about  how they have very short memory (2-4 MS compared with 200-500MS with even very cheap scopes today). And that is being a story now for more than 5 years..  And there is no new Infiniivision II with Megazoom 5 and 500 MS (or even 50MS) of memory in sight.
Why? Because they are best selling scopes on the market still in its current form, and obviously people don't need more memory... When sales start dropping and people say it is because of very short memory, then, you will see, how Keysight will very quickly introduce new series. like a rabbit from a hat. Of course they are working on next step, maybe even have developed product ready for production..
But why use an ace when you're winning the game anyways..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 22, 2020, 04:08:43 pm
Dear 2N3055, thanks for the reply.

Quote
Brochures and other marketing materials are not to be trusted and are marketing bullshit mostly, designed to confuse customer and painting a rosy picture..

I see what you read, but I don’t think that we, as buyers of such instrument, should too easily be willing to accept this line of reasoning, that any other document than one called a “data sheet” does not bring any obligation. Also information in documents that are called “fact sheets”, or for that matter “brochures”, should be something people could rely on, have trust in. Their language should not be factually incorrect or deceiving.

Going back to the verbatim language we were discussing in the ‘fact sheet’ document “Decoding of up to four serial buses: Trigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals”. I really believe one should reasonably be able this as “if you want to decode four buses at the same time, then this software you can buy from us allows you to do this”. And not like “we mentioned four, but it may also three, or two…”. Heck, this way I would also need to accept zero as an answer! Note also this is a very specific document, only about these separate software licenses to decode buses. 

If it would have read “You may be able to decode up to four different interfaces”, or “depending on your oscilloscope model or the protocol in question, you can decode up to four different interfaces at once”, then I think it would have been ok.

I have one more example. The  RTB2000 Product Brochure, Version 06.000 (https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0600.pdf) has the following text (emphasis added):

Quote
Waveform and pattern generator: The integrated R&S RTB-B6 waveform and pattern generator (up to 50 Mbit/s) is useful for educational purposes and for implementing prototype hardware. Apart from the common sine, square/pulse, ramp and noise waveforms, it outputs arbitrary waveforms and 4-bit signal patterns. Waveforms and patterns can be imported as CSV files or copied from oscilloscope waveforms. Before playing signals back, the user can preview them to quickly check signal correctness. Predefined patterns for e.g. I2C, SPI, UART and CAN/LIN can be used.

Well, in fact, you cannot import patterns as CSV files (and if I’m wrong here, someone let me know!). Is that OK?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on November 22, 2020, 07:35:48 pm
Dear 2N3055, thanks for the reply.

Quote
Brochures and other marketing materials are not to be trusted and are marketing bullshit mostly, designed to confuse customer and painting a rosy picture..

I see what you read, but I don’t think that we, as buyers of such instrument, should too easily be willing to accept this line of reasoning, that any other document than one called a “data sheet” does not bring any obligation. Also information in documents that are called “fact sheets”, or for that matter “brochures”, should be something people could rely on, have trust in. Their language should not be factually incorrect or deceiving.

Going back to the verbatim language we were discussing in the ‘fact sheet’ document “Decoding of up to four serial buses: Trigger and decode on four different interfaces at the same time from analog or digital channel signals”. I really believe one should reasonably be able this as “if you want to decode four buses at the same time, then this software you can buy from us allows you to do this”. And not like “we mentioned four, but it may also three, or two…”. Heck, this way I would also need to accept zero as an answer! Note also this is a very specific document, only about these separate software licenses to decode buses. 

If it would have read “You may be able to decode up to four different interfaces”, or “depending on your oscilloscope model or the protocol in question, you can decode up to four different interfaces at once”, then I think it would have been ok.

I have one more example. The  RTB2000 Product Brochure, Version 06.000 (https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0600.pdf) has the following text (emphasis added):

Quote
Waveform and pattern generator: The integrated R&S RTB-B6 waveform and pattern generator (up to 50 Mbit/s) is useful for educational purposes and for implementing prototype hardware. Apart from the common sine, square/pulse, ramp and noise waveforms, it outputs arbitrary waveforms and 4-bit signal patterns. Waveforms and patterns can be imported as CSV files or copied from oscilloscope waveforms. Before playing signals back, the user can preview them to quickly check signal correctness. Predefined patterns for e.g. I2C, SPI, UART and CAN/LIN can be used.

Well, in fact, you cannot import patterns as CSV files (and if I’m wrong here, someone let me know!). Is that OK?

Again, no mention of *.csv , only *.scp in Datasheet or manual. Which are actual reference document.

To put it bluntly I agree 100% that many manufacturers are simply shit. Unethical, greedy corporations that are there not to do good, be decent and do their job, but to make money at maximum profit point. That is not conspiracy theory, it is literally curriculum in management schools. They pretend but they don't really care.

I was very verbose so I apologize for not being clear. We absolutely need to be very critical to manufacturers that play any kind of games like that and purposely design devices to imply functionality they don't possess. 

What I wanted to say to you is that all those documents that have false, implied, future possible but not here (not that we promise we'll do it, but it could be done if want to) are NOT datasheets. By law only datasheet (or specification sheet) is document that needs to accurately present true capabilities at the date of sale. Because that is the one that serves as specification in sales contract what you are actually buying at the time.

And they will diligently make sure datasheet and manual are correct. Which they are. So you cannot sue them.

Fact that they are writing all other marketing in a manner that used car salesmen would consider unethical is just a show of company moral standards.. "our new BMW 3 series has up to 300 HP..." they don't specify which one.. R&S apparently outsourced (or hired) marketing manager that thinks scopes are Iphones or cars... 

I don't like it. I like it less than you. That is why I bough Keysight scope, instead of RTM3000 that i really liked at first glance..  I made my vote, in only way they understand.. They lost my 8000-9000 € and all the money in future for maintenance, accessories, other devices.. I'm also very vocal about it. There are others that are having second thoughts..

I know they laugh at loss of my business, I'm not important to that big corporation.. But how about 100 of me or 1000 of me, where is the point where it becomes important?

So to summarize it, if you like R&S, and it has all the features you need and you're willing to pay for it, go for it. It's a premium feel product, and fancy looks and name, and it will make your lab look fancy. And it will serve you well within it's specs.

If you need instrument to have more than certain number of decodes, or this or that, and current R&S (or any other manufacturer) product doesn't have that capability, you need to chose something else. It won't appear magically if you wish for it hard enough. If anything, A brand manufacturers are LESS likely to add features and functions later (and free). If they add something, they want you to pay for it...

Keysight started selling their DSOX1204 series (latest 1000 series 4ch) with all serial protocols for free, only after Siglent and Rigol had them for free and nobody would buy Keysight in that range because it was too expensive. It is still more expensive compared to similar Chinese offerings, but not by factor of 3..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 22, 2020, 08:34:19 pm
@2N3055: After this conversation, I see we are not that far apart, really.

In my view, there are three components to this:

1. A business component. Satisfied customers are more loyal: they come back and encourage others to buy from you as well. This should be at least one reason for an instrument maker not to make false promises or use misleading language in any of their documents.

2. An ethical/moral component. (No elaboration needed here, I hope.)

3. A legal component. While you write 'By law only datasheet (or specification sheet) is document that needs to accurately present true capabilities at the date of sale.', I would not take such a narrow interpretation for granted. One-sided commitments or statements may have a legally binding significance. Such things will certainly depend on applicable law (the country in question). Moreover, they will depend on the applicable regime - don't be surprised how many expensive measurement instruments are bought by private consumers, which in many countries enjoy specific protection or rights. While I personally do not like to resort directly to this legal component, and I rather leave interpretation to legal professionals, things may not be as negative as you think.

best regards,
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on November 22, 2020, 08:45:46 pm

Keysight started selling their DSOX1204 series (latest 1000 series 4ch) with all serial protocols for free, only after Siglent and then later Rigol had them for free and nobody would buy Keysight in that range because it was too expensive. It is still more expensive compared to similar Chinese offerings, but not by factor of 3..
Correction added.  :P
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on November 22, 2020, 08:50:24 pm
@2N3055: After this conversation, I see we are not that far apart, really.

In my view, there are three components to this:

1. A business component. Satisfied customers are more loyal: they come back and encourage others to buy from you as well. This should be at least one reason for an instrument maker not to make false promises or use misleading language in any of their documents.

2. An ethical/moral component. (No elaboration needed here, I hope.)

3. A legal component. While you write 'By law only datasheet (or specification sheet) is document that needs to accurately present true capabilities at the date of sale.', I would not take such a narrow interpretation for granted. One-sided commitments or statements may have a legally binding significance. Such things will certainly depend on applicable law (the country in question). Moreover, they will depend on the applicable regime - don't be surprised how many expensive measurement instruments are bought by private consumers, which in many countries enjoy specific protection or rights. While I personally do not like to resort directly to this legal component, and I rather leave interpretation to legal professionals, things may not be as negative as you think.

best regards,
Why not ?  :-//
A datasheet accurately states the specifications of what an instrument can do and it's not some dreamed up 'hope it can' document. Specifications are proven by tests with better specified equipment, it has to be better to provide a degree of accuracy that can be challenged and reproven with tests.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Weston on November 22, 2020, 08:51:18 pm
When upgrading to the new firmware I inspected my scope more closely than normal and discovered that there is an unconnected grey wire floating around in the back of the enclosure.

I chatted with Hydron a bit about this and he said it was probably the wire coming from the AC line trigger optocoupler, which goes to a waggo connector that could have conceivably gotten loose. Setting the scope in AC line trigger mode shows it is not reliably triggering, so it seems like that is the case.

I am a bit confused how this happened. I guess I could have missed it when I first got the scope, but I peered in the back at least a little bit. And I have not subjected the scope to any mechanical shocks that could have dislodged the wire 

The unshielded end of the wire is not touching anything right now, but I would prefer to have this fixed sooner than later.

@Rich, is there anything I can do to resolve this myself? It seems like an easy fix, but the calibration sticker on the bottom is stopping me from opening up the scope. Is there any warranty implications to removing the sticker?

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on November 22, 2020, 11:33:30 pm
I just looked at mine, seems it would be easy to do by removing the rear cover. If your unit is out of warranty and you are comfortable taking the cover off, I don't think it is difficult.
Right behind the grill in your picture is where it plugs in. You should see a white connector.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 24, 2020, 08:33:28 pm
Quote
Why not ?  :-//

I think this forum is not the right place to have legal discussions. But this calls for an answer.

The law is a system based on constitutions, treaties, rules of law, and jurisdiction. It developed over a very long course of time and somewhat developed differently across nations.

Society decided that not just anybody can provide meaning to the law. Also not us, engineers, using our ‘engineering logic’. In most countries, one needs a license to practice law, often known as being administered to the bar. To obtain such a license, one needs to meet a number of requirements, and that usually includes a law degree, based on years of study. Thinking of the discussion above: during such a study, one might spend considerable effort on even examining ancient Roman law, which holds important principles for today’s private and contract law (in ancient Rome, oscilloscopes did not yet exist, but perhaps there were measurements instruments on sale?).

@Tautech: I see you work for a company. Almost any company of some size will have a legal advisor, legal department, or an in-house councel. You should turn to them to have your question answered.

I also observe that when lawyers or other legal professionals are mentioned in this forum or similar places, it is often in a negative connotation. I think that is regrettable. In my daily work, I have engaged often with legal professionals, in several dozen legal cases, and most often, these are constructive, professional and very hard-working individuals, and quite often, very, very intelligent. If working in a company, these people play an important role for the company to behave right, instead of wrong. Similarly, the whole legal system serves an important purpose. People may laugh at this, but may only realise this fun is misplaced once they would find themselves in a situation where no proper legal system is in place.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on November 24, 2020, 08:51:02 pm
I also observe that when lawyers or other legal professionals are mentioned in this forum or similar places, it is often in a negative connotation. I think that is regrettable. In my daily work, I have engaged often with legal professionals, in several dozen legal cases, and most often, these are constructive, professional and very hard-working individuals, and quite often, very, very intelligent. If working in a company, these people play an important role for the company to behave right, instead of wrong.
Not just that; I've seen people / businesses tripping over their own mistakes because they where too stubborn or ignorant to obtain solid legal advice.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2020, 09:10:27 pm
@Tautech: I see you work for a company.
Yes, mine.

You previously stated datasheet specification can't be trusted for which I call BS on.
Have you the equipment to prove such ?
If an instrument doesn't meet a manufacturers specification which BTW are usually conservative then the instrument is faulty not the datasheet is a lie.

To go down this road is outside the capability of most as we generally don't have other equipment to test instruments to their full capability....or with properly calibrated traceable test instruments to categorically prove that an instruments specification is wrong !
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JxR on November 24, 2020, 10:51:16 pm
Quote
Has there been any update with the latest firmware regarding the maximum number of protocol decoders enabled at the same time ?

Last I heard was a maximum of two, and RX/TX serial decode counts as two decoder, so basically if you decode one UART, you are using all the decoders.

Interesting you mention that. It seems I cannot decode SPI and CAN at the same time. When  I activate 'decode' of SPI on Bus B1, a CAN protocol on bus B2 is disabled (?!?). It greys out both in the vertical menu, as in the bottom menu (see screenshot). I made sure they do not overlap in the input channels used (by using the MSO).

Since it wasn't explicitly stated if you overcame this problem: You need to set the SPI to only decode MOSI and set MISO to None in the protocol configuration, if you want to do a CAN decode on B2.  Doing both MOSI and MISO on B1 is bringing you to the two decode limit.

To you and other new purchasers:
As I'm sure you are already aware reading datasheets, and then rereading again and again is essential before a purchase.  Never ever buy anything assuming or hoping a feature will be added in the future.  You will just set yourself up for disappointment (which I myself have made the mistake of).

The RTB2000 was a great 'entry level' scope 3.5 years ago.  I like many others here got it at the intro price, and at the time it was a great deal (~$2200 or so fully loaded).  Now the B-Market has caught up with a vengeance since the RTB2000 was first released.  As much as I like the RTB2000 still, I doubt I would have still purchased it today if I was in the market for a new scope.  It is still a great scope, just much harder to justify even at sale prices imho.

That said, the support I have received from R&S and Rich have both been phenomenal over the years.  My RTB2004 had a fault almost a year ago (under warranty), and they just mailed me a brand new calibrated unit.  Even gave me a loaner for an extended amount of time that I was free to use even after the replacement came in.  I had a power supply that had one of the channels die, and they not only replaced the unit, but ended up upgraded me to a higher end model.  R&S has taken care of me when I have had issues and that is certainly worth something.  Rich is still here regularly communicating with us after all these years, when he could have ghosted a long time ago.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 25, 2020, 08:03:52 am
Quote
Since it wasn't explicitly stated if you overcame this problem: You need to set the SPI to only decode MOSI and set MISO to None in the protocol configuration, if you want to do a CAN decode on B2.  Doing both MOSI and MISO on B1 is bringing you to the two decode limit.
 

Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, I now understand it matters whether one decodes ISP or UART bidirectionally or not. (Would be kind of useful if this were mentioned in the user manual, though.)

Also, your analysis of the RTB attractiveness is interesting.

Personally, I still like my RTB as such very much, let there be no doubt about this, and would likely buy it again today if I was shopping in this category. My personal experiences with R&S service were not as positive as yours, it took them months to replace a faulty probe delivered with the instrument (reported elsewhere in the forum). In hindsight, this was due to multiple communication problems between departments (in different countries) within the company.

In terms of overall functionality and performance, I am very happy. It’s a great device, and some additional functions offered in recent firmware releases should be applauded.

Is it perfect? No, there are some things left to be desired:

Although these are things I can live with (and for several I developed some work-arounds, and shared them in this forum), they would take little effort for the company to take up and provide overall a more satisfying user experience.

Of course, there are always other desires, but I cannot complain when they are not materialized (although I can always hope…)



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: uski on November 28, 2020, 10:37:24 am
The RTB2000 was a great 'entry level' scope 3.5 years ago.  I like many others here got it at the intro price, and at the time it was a great deal (~$2200 or so fully loaded).  Now the B-Market has caught up with a vengeance since the RTB2000 was first released.  As much as I like the RTB2000 still, I doubt I would have still purchased it today if I was in the market for a new scope.  It is still a great scope, just much harder to justify even at sale prices imho.

This is where R&S could start releasing some feature upgrades, to keep the attractiveness. Additional serial decodes like I mentioned could be a possibility.

Or significantly reducing the price for the bandwidth "upgrades" which is an outrageous concept anyway (ever heard about a car with an software limitation of the horsepower, which offered paid upgrades to remove that limitation ?), at least for hobbyists. Not 20% off. Divide it by 10.

I do have some experience with "B series", specifically a Rigol DSA832. Not a scope, I know, but it speaks about the company. Not super happy with the quality of the firmware. Lots of crashes, some weird annoying bugs, and missing features which made usability for some use cases much harder than what it should/could have been.
I also have experience with a R&S CMU200. Felt much better. So I hope that R&S made a better job than the B-series with the recent products, which would help justifying the price. But seeing the reply above, not sure the R&S software is bug free....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 28, 2020, 10:54:24 am
Quote
But seeing the reply above, not sure the R&S software is bug free....

To avoid misinterpretation: with my RTB, I certainly do not experience a lot of crashes. With earlier firmware I (very) occasionally had crashes (some of which I learned to avoid because I know what triggered them). With the current (2.300) firmware, I'm not sure I had any crashes, but its only out recently, so too early to tell for me whether they now addressed them all.

Over time, quite a few 'other' bugs were addressed in firmware updates, for which quite detailed change logs are issued. But the process has been rather long (several years to iron out several bugs), and there are some bugs that remain.

I cannot compare this to recent scopes of other brands in terms of crashes or bugs because I do not have experience with them.

(Well, I have a Tek 453, a Tek 2465A, and a trusty HAMEG HM 203-5, and hey, none of them ever crashed, but I would not take them as comparison points for this discussion  ;-))) 

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on November 28, 2020, 11:19:13 am
Quote
But seeing the reply above, not sure the R&S software is bug free....

To avoid misinterpretation: with my RTB, I certainly do not experience a lot of crashes. With earlier firmware I (very) occasionally had crashes (some of which I learned to avoid because I know what triggered them). With the current (2.300) firmware, I'm not sure I had any crashes, but its only out recently, so too early to tell for me whether they now addressed them all.

Over time, quite a few 'other' bugs were addressed in firmware updates, for which quite detailed change logs are issued. But the process has been rather long (several years to iron out several bugs), and there are some bugs that remain.

I cannot compare this to recent scopes of other brands in terms of crashes or bugs because I do not have experience with them.

(Well, I have a Tek 453, a Tek 2465A, and a trusty HAMEG HM 203-5, and hey, none of them ever crashed, but I would not take them as comparison points for this discussion  ;-))) 



Well, problem is, that in that regard, you paid premium price to A brand, and you got B grade instrument and B grade support.
And you would buy it again. I wouldn't. I would feel cheated.

Fact is, I agree with JxR. Today, in that range, for much less money you have Siglent SDS2000X Plus series, that so far had better track record in being less buggy, faster fixes, very powerful, and much lower price... So if I'm supposed to buy something, and than wait for few years for them to fully debug it, I would at least can say, well I didn't pay much so it paid off.

From premium A brand, high price should mean better quality and it should work from the day one with only minor problems. I bought Keysight 3000T 2 years ago. Expensive. Worth every penny. Not a single problem, since day one. I made a comment here on EEVBlog about how it seems illogical that you can measure pulse count on analog channels but not digital. Few months later that measurement was in the new firmware.. That is premium brand. R&S 2000/3000/4000 was amatuer hour..... No better than Rigol or Siglent. So why pay premium prices for the mediocre product?

It should not be like cars, where you have same Toyota sold as Lexus for twice the price...


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: exe on November 28, 2020, 11:52:17 am
ever heard about a car with an software limitation of the horsepower, which offered paid upgrades to remove that limitation ?

Tesla? :) https://electrek.co/2016/07/26/tesla-upgrade-software-limited-battery-pack-model-s-x/
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on November 28, 2020, 12:14:29 pm
We were allowed to save screenshots to internal memory in last firmware 2.300. But how can I get them back from the internal memory? I haven't found a way to copy them on a USB stick or access them via the web interface.  I didn't even find a way to view the screenshot on the scope screen. You can do only one action:  - erase it! :)))
Somebody knows?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 28, 2020, 12:16:26 pm
Quote
Today, in that range, for much less money you have Siglent SDS2000X Plus series

Depends on how you define “much less”. At the time of my purchase, the difference was 30%. So, yes, the Siglent was less expensive, but not terribly so, and lacked some of the features I was looking got (like Bode frequency response).

(In detail: I bought the RTB2004COM4 for €3800, and at that time, the comparable configuration of the SDS2000X (300 MHz 4 channel, plus SPL2016 MSO probes, SDS2000X serial decoders and SDS2000X function generator) was €2900. (All prices include VAT.) We all know promotions for options change all the time, so these prices can be different at other points in time.)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 28, 2020, 12:22:24 pm
Quote
We were allowed to save screenshots to internal memory in last firmware 2.300. But how can I get them back from the internal memory? I haven't found a way to copy them on a USB stick or access them via the web interface.
Somebody knows?

Good question, having been looking for a way to copy it from internal memory to external memory (ie flash drive) but could not find that either!

You can, however, use a laptop with USB MPT connection to access any file in the internal memory, including screen prints stored there (at least if you have a Windows computer, on MacOS that is another story, see the separate threat on this in this forum).

I m currently using a €10 Euro "USB switch" so I can use a flash drive that I connect to both my computer and as an external drive on the RTB, so I can switch with the push of button. Not perfect, but serves me quite well.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on November 28, 2020, 12:32:17 pm
Thank you, I somehow did not think about this (USB MTP). Well, at least one way to copy files.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on November 28, 2020, 12:42:10 pm
Quote
Today, in that range, for much less money you have Siglent SDS2000X Plus series

Depends on how you define “much less”. At the time of my purchase, the difference was 30%. So, yes, the Siglent was less expensive, but not terribly so, and lacked some of the features I was looking got (like Bode frequency response).

(In detail: I bought the RTB2004COM4 for €3800, and at that time, the comparable configuration of the SDS2000X (300 MHz 4 channel, plus SPL2016 MSO probes, SDS2000X serial decoders and SDS2000X function generator) was €2900. (All prices include VAT.) We all know promotions for options change all the time, so these prices can be different at other points in time.)

Not that one. The SDS2000X Plus, the new one. Seriously different, much better instrument.
And I wasn't commenting about back then when you bought it.
Comment was, that despite all the problems you would buy it again. Today, things are different than 2 years ago, and there is more competition...
And bad experience, on par with B brands would put me off. My opinion, of course. You have yours. We are just exchanging viewpoints and experiences here...
Hopefully we all learn something, maybe even useful.

Best regards,

Sinisa
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 28, 2020, 01:35:01 pm
Oh sorry, you are right, I was comparing to the about the SDS2000X, not the SDS2000X Plus you mention.

Made me wonder what I would do today. Just looked at the current prices (so not considering which of the two is the better scope). Checking more or less comparable configurations (its never identical, but I tried to be fair) and the currently available "promotional bundles" for both instruments, and looking at the same store, I see €2599+€335=€2934 for the SDS2354X-plus and the SPL2016 Logic Probes (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2354X-plus.html), and € 3390 for the RTB2004 COM4 (https://nl.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-bundle-rtb2004-b243-b1-pk1/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2004+com4) (which includes the logic probes). Both offers include the serial decoding options. (All prices excluding VAT.)

Price difference is less than 10%, so I would say these prices are more or less on par, and that the Siglent is not "much cheaper". 


 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on November 28, 2020, 02:25:06 pm
Oh sorry, you are right, I was comparing to the about the SDS2000X, not the SDS2000X Plus you mention.

Made me wonder what I would do today. Just looked at the current prices (so not considering which of the two is the better scope). Checking more or less comparable configurations (its never identical, but I tried to be fair) and the currently available "promotional bundles" for both instruments, and looking at the same store, I see €2599+€335=€2934 for the SDS2354X-plus and the SPL2016 Logic Probes (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2354X-plus.html), and € 3390 for the RTB2004 COM4 (https://nl.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-bundle-rtb2004-b243-b1-pk1/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2004+com4) (which includes the logic probes). Both offers include the serial decoding options. (All prices excluding VAT.)

Price difference is less than 10%, so I would say these prices are more or less on par, and that the Siglent is not "much cheaper".

450 € is a lot of money still.. Also that is if you want full loaded RTB2000, for which you have current promotion.
If you wanted only 100 MHz 4ch scope, SDS 2014+ has very competitive price.
Other thing is that you can, for the price of 3390 €, you can buy Siglent SDS5034X that is very, very serious scope.

All of that , normally, if you don't want (or can't) "liberate" Siglents with keygens. So you can "open" SDS2014+ to SDS2054+, or SDS5034X to 750MHz. All options for Siglents are free now.

So to make it short, without hacking, for the price of RTB2000 full package, you can get SDS5034X that is competing in RTM3000 class..

But, as I said, you might think differently.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: JxR on November 28, 2020, 10:52:48 pm
The RTB2000 was a great 'entry level' scope 3.5 years ago.  I like many others here got it at the intro price, and at the time it was a great deal (~$2200 or so fully loaded).  Now the B-Market has caught up with a vengeance since the RTB2000 was first released.  As much as I like the RTB2000 still, I doubt I would have still purchased it today if I was in the market for a new scope.  It is still a great scope, just much harder to justify even at sale prices imho.

This is where R&S could start releasing some feature upgrades, to keep the attractiveness. Additional serial decodes like I mentioned could be a possibility.

Or significantly reducing the price for the bandwidth "upgrades" which is an outrageous concept anyway (ever heard about a car with an software limitation of the horsepower, which offered paid upgrades to remove that limitation ?), at least for hobbyists. Not 20% off. Divide it by 10.

I do have some experience with "B series", specifically a Rigol DSA832. Not a scope, I know, but it speaks about the company. Not super happy with the quality of the firmware. Lots of crashes, some weird annoying bugs, and missing features which made usability for some use cases much harder than what it should/could have been.
I also have experience with a R&S CMU200. Felt much better. So I hope that R&S made a better job than the B-series with the recent products, which would help justifying the price. But seeing the reply above, not sure the R&S software is bug free....

R&S has a ridiculously large range of products to support, and I expect all of them could use some additional developer love in one way or another to improve upon them.  More decoding options would certainly be welcome.  I expect the code already exist to bring the decode options on the RTM/RTA over to the RTB if they wanted to.

***WARNING OFF TOPIC RANT****
R&S makes some bizarre choices on some things imho, and alot of their product range could use some additional love.  Take their newest power supply offerings: NGL, NGM, and NGP series.  The desktop software to "control" these power supplies is ancient (HMExplorer).  In fact none of them can actually be fully controlled by this software to my knowledge.  It is so bad that I would be straight up embarrassed to demonstrate this software to a potential buyer.  There is no comparison to what Keysight or Keithely(Tek) each provide to support their power supplies. 

The NGM power supply is hardware wise one of the most advanced power supplies on the market, yet it has no real analysis software like it's predecessor the NGMO. It has a ridiculously simple software to get a graph of the outputs that honestly looks like it was written by a undergrad on their summer internship (it also crashes pretty regularly after a single use).  Again, completely embarrassing for an A-brand company. 

One of the main features of the NGM is battery simulation, yet there is no battery analysis software (besides the built-in simulation part itself).  Hell they don't even provide additional internal logging features specific to that function.  Its like they look at their competitor (Keithely), top every hardware feature Keithley has, but then ignore the fact that the Keithley actually does provides analysis tools to support that feature (both internal and external).  The NGM is still a badass power supply, but it feels 'unfinished'.

**Keep in mind, I'm mainly pointing out the bad while not mentioning all the good**

I know I'm getting a little off topic bringing up their power supplies, but I just want to demonstrate other areas R&S seems to be completely ignoring software wise.  All the supplies I mentioned are much newer than the RTB series (some more expensive than), and they are getting little to no love either.  By comparison the RTB series is actually doing pretty good.  R&S seems to be just happy providing SCPI commands and let their customers do the rest.  While that is "ok", and I certainly do write my own tools to deal with that reality, I still think it looks bad when their closest competitors put in much more effort making software to support their hardware.
***END RANT***

Long story short, don't hold your breath on getting new features.  R&S has/does occasionally pull a happy surprise by allowing a few trickle down features from the RTM/RTA series, but they also intentionally hold back stuff to differentiate the models.  That said, I'm honestly pretty happy with the 2.3.0 firmware on the RTB, and overall still very happy with my RTB. 

I do still really like R&S products, and because of their previous support I do check to see their offerings if I'm in the market for a new device. Although, no one is good enough to get a free pass when it comes to pointing out their faults, or areas that need improvement.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: marekx on December 15, 2020, 09:04:11 am
Hi!
Thought I need to share my latest R&S experience.

We have two of these scopes for everyday work. They are loaded with all the software options, one has a 300MHz BW and the other 100MHz.
We have been quite satisfied with these scopes so far, but now when we have a experience with R&S customer support policy then we probably won't
buy another R&S product, ever!
It started one morning when the 300MHz RTB2004 did not start anymore. When the power-button was pressed then the front panel LEDs just
blinked once, the fan turned on and not much else happened. The scope was dead.
Since the thing was no longer in warranty we contacted the R&S local branch for quote for repairing it, thinking that the worst case scenario
would be paying them the price of the new RTB2004 without any options and they will add the same options to it that the dead scope had.
We were wrong, at first they sent us a quote for ~1200€+VAT which was about what we expected, but then they corrected their quote claiming that
since the scope that we want to be "repaired" is a 300MHz version then we would need to pay ~2200€+VAT.
So beware of this when considering buying "cheap" hardware with expensive options R&S, when the hardware dies then you need to buy new options as well.

Rich, if you read this then I would be grateful if you could explain....

With best wishes,
Marek


 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tv84 on December 15, 2020, 10:05:37 am
We were wrong, at first they sent us a quote for ~1200€+VAT which was about what we expected, but then they corrected their quote claiming that since the scope that we want to be "repaired" is a 300MHz version then we would need to pay ~2200€+VAT.

 :palm: Unbelievable!

Let's hope that was wrong.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BU508A on December 15, 2020, 10:39:51 am
[...]
Rich, if you read this then I would be grateful if you could explain....

I'd recommend to send him a personal message via the forum, perhaps he'll recognize it earlier
and can help you faster.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on December 15, 2020, 11:03:57 am
Brand new Siglent SDS2354X Plus with all options and 350MHz costs 2600€+VAT....  :box:

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: jemangedeslolos on December 15, 2020, 11:07:11 am
Hi!
Thought I need to share my latest R&S experience.

We have two of these scopes for everyday work. They are loaded with all the software options, one has a 300MHz BW and the other 100MHz.
We have been quite satisfied with these scopes so far, but now when we have a experience with R&S customer support policy then we probably won't
buy another R&S product, ever!
It started one morning when the 300MHz RTB2004 did not start anymore. When the power-button was pressed then the front panel LEDs just
blinked once, the fan turned on and not much else happened. The scope was dead.
Since the thing was no longer in warranty we contacted the R&S local branch for quote for repairing it, thinking that the worst case scenario
would be paying them the price of the new RTB2004 without any options and they will add the same options to it that the dead scope had.
We were wrong, at first they sent us a quote for ~1200€+VAT which was about what we expected, but then they corrected their quote claiming that
since the scope that we want to be "repaired" is a 300MHz version then we would need to pay ~2200€+VAT.
So beware of this when considering buying "cheap" hardware with expensive options R&S, when the hardware dies then you need to buy new options as well.

Rich, if you read this then I would be grateful if you could explain....

With best wishes,
Marek


 

 :palm:
It's incredible, but it's a practice that also exists in the automotive industry.
The same oil or the same brake discs cost more to replace in the more highend car of the same brand, in the same garage.
They are very ingenious in coming up with ideas to increase their income.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on December 15, 2020, 12:12:35 pm
This explains the mental price I was quoted for a repair to my RTB2k (2k GBP + VAT) - more than I paid new at launch special price! They specifically asked what the bandwidth of the instrument was before giving me an indication on price when I rang up (before trying to go through the German service people mentioned below).

The German support tech had seemed to imply that it would be covered free of charge after documenting the problem/symptoms ("We will offer you a change of board") but the UK service people they passed me onto completely ignored me when I pointed that out, so I gave up and just fixed it myself (faulty LMH6518 VGA in the front end). Maybe could have tried harder (and tried to get Rich involved) but fixing it myself also meant I wasn't without the unit for an unknown period of time.

I would have been extremely pissed off had I had to pay for the service - the premium prices (remembering this is to fix the fault of the manufacturer more often than not) are bad enough before the insult of escalating charges based on whether you had installed a software license or not, which clearly has nothing to do with R&S's true cost of service.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 15, 2020, 01:57:29 pm
We're going back to Tektronix if this thing dies!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on December 15, 2020, 07:19:50 pm
So let me get this right - buy a 100MHz scope, Pay to get it upgraded to 300MHz, and because of the upgrade, the exact same hardware costs more for a out of warranty repair..?

That is seriously messed up.

Rich - can you please give a definitive answer on this ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on December 15, 2020, 07:42:54 pm
Yeah, I hope that was just a misunderstanding as well --- I'd be pretty annoyed if you had to pay more because of a software upgrade. I love this scope and if I ever need a high-end scope I'll likely go R&S (esp. since Keysight's MXR is unbearably loud), but this kind of thing matters a lot.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: YetAnotherTechie on December 15, 2020, 07:54:32 pm
I'm sorry but they can´t have it both ways, if you have a software license then the price of the hardware is the price without the license, that's pretty damm obvious, so is the price of the repair of the hardware.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on December 15, 2020, 07:59:06 pm
Yep. To me, that's the entire point of a SW license. at 2k/repair i can literally buy a new RTB and transfer my licenses.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: artelse on December 15, 2020, 08:21:18 pm
Is there a way to copy files -screenshots- from internal memory to usb-stick? And what is the reason filenames on usb-sticks are restricted to 8 characters and uppercase? That feels ancient.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: YetAnotherTechie on December 15, 2020, 08:22:47 pm
Yep. To me, that's the entire point of a SW license. at 2k/repair i can literally buy a new RTB and transfer my licenses.
where did you get the ideia that you can transfer "their" licenses? Transferable licenses exist for top-top HW, but they are not what you buy as a permanent license or in a bundle.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on December 15, 2020, 08:49:29 pm
Hi Folks - I PM'd marekx.  In the US, I *believe* we just charge a flat fee for repair on the RTB (it's actually a replacement).  I'm not sure how it works in other regions, but I'm looking in to it for marekx.

BTW - in general, please don't hesitate to PM me.  I'm not on EEVBlog as much as I'd like (and when I am, I'm not always looking at T&M stuff), so I may miss a request in the different threads.  I may not be able to answer everything, but I'll do my best to help.  But if you PM me, it pops up a note when I log in (and I get an email). 

Take care,
Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on December 15, 2020, 08:50:23 pm
Rich posted it somewhere in this thread I think. Not sure; just saw you posted above me. Can you clarify whether a license transfer is possible?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on December 15, 2020, 08:55:44 pm
Rich posted it somewhere in this thread I think. Not sure; just saw you posted above me. Can you clarify whether a license transfer is possible?
In general, the licenses are node locked to the instrument.  There is a way, but there is a fee and I'm not exactly sure how it would work for a RTB-class instrument (it's used more on higher-end gear). 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tv84 on December 15, 2020, 09:31:36 pm
R&S licensing has the concept of portable licenses and the mechanisms to deal with such licenses.

I would say that such scheme is to be used by a client who has multiple equipments and may want to share one of the options between 2 such equipments. A nice idea.

BUT, in this particular case, such explanation is nonsense. The equipment is being serviced by R&S as such, if R&S needs to change anything that implies a modification of the Device's ID (and consequently its licenses), R&S has full control to reissue new licenses associated with the new Device ID without  any extra costs whatsoever for R&S.  Unless the R&S keygen has an insert coin slot...
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on December 15, 2020, 09:36:45 pm
R&S licensing has the concept of portable licenses and the mechanisms to deal with such licenses.

I would say that such scheme is to be used by a client who has multiple equipments and may want to share one of the options between 2 such equipments. A nice idea.

BUT, in this particular case, such explanation is nonsense. The equipment is being serviced by R&S as such, if R&S needs to change anything that implies a modification of the Device's ID (and consequently its licenses), R&S has full control to reissue new licenses associated with the new Device ID without  any extra costs whatsoever for R&S.  Unless the R&S keygen has an insert coin slot...
Correct.  Just to be clear, on many of our instruments (in addition to node locked) we offer portable licenses that can be moved between instruments as needed.  And when an instrument is sent in for service, we (of course) would also move licenses from the old piece of equipment to the new piece if it is a "replace" vs. "repair" type situation. 

tv84 - Thanks for pointing that out!

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 15, 2020, 11:23:29 pm
How many of these scopes are failing? How many people here have had problems? I know the probes are horrible, I've already had failures, no better than a low price China scope probe. This is not a low cost scope, wasn't it originally listed as ~$8k?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on December 15, 2020, 11:25:50 pm
Never had a failure, probes still work fine. Had this for 2 years now. About 5k fully optioned without the promo.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on December 16, 2020, 12:01:53 am
Mine had a fairly subtle failure (offset out of spec to the point that calibration failed) of a national semi/TI VGA in the front end of one channel (LMH6518).

The only way that R&S was at fault in this failure was with their insane repair costs policy and the UK people dealing with me - the IC wasn't being abused in any way that I could tell, and was being used for exactly it's intended purpose. Just bad luck (or a bad batch of ICs - another person had the same failure), also in that it happened just out of warranty.

The calibration process could have been a bit more forgiving though (the cal failure messed up the other channels - had to roll back firmware to an earlier version that didn't care so much about the offset to keep using the good channels).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: chicken on December 16, 2020, 12:12:42 am
No failures so far (knocking wood) and very happy with the scope itself.

But the probes are pretty awful, and that's from comparing to cheap Rigols that I owned before buying the RTB2004. The cap's spring action is stiff and easily freezes up, and the ground crocodile-clips are hard to press open with the insulation sleeve on the clip slipping around. If anybody has suggestions for good and reasonably priced replacement probes I'm all ears.



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: marekx on December 17, 2020, 07:49:39 am
Hi again!

Our paragon Rich did it again. He pulled some strings and we were contacted by R&S and they sent a new quote for 1200. :)
Its sad that you need to know "someone who cares" for that and it hadn't ended as well If I had not known this forum and thread.
Thank you Rich! In my eyes you are doing the work of R&S customer relations and support far better than the people R&S officially has for that job.

With best wishes,
Marek

   
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: jemangedeslolos on December 17, 2020, 08:03:20 am
Wow  :-+

It makes me want to switch to RTM3004   :palm:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fixpoint on December 17, 2020, 11:34:12 am
He pulled some strings and we were contacted by R&S and they sent a new quote for 1200. :)
Its sad that you need to know "someone who cares" for that and it hadn't ended as well If I had not known this forum and thread.
Thank you Rich! In my eyes you are doing the work of R&S customer relations and support far better than the people R&S officially has for that job.

Yes, that is sad.

I also had my dealings with R&S support directly and personally, and multiple times, both on my own and in collaboration with a distributor.

The experience was, let's say, not good. The guy didn't seem to know their own devices and declared something to be a fault that I later learned is normal. His mail replies were offhand and superficial, just a few sentences, not a real answer to my enquiry. There was nothing involved that deserves to be called "support" in the actual sense of the term.

When I talked to my distributor about it, they said "oh yes, we know that guy" and, well, just laughed. You know, that's all you can do. Laugh.

It is ridiculous that the REAL support is done by a guy in the EEVblog forum who "pulls strings". Honestly, that is NOT a good thing. That is just *embarassing*.

R&S obviously wants to have consumers as clients, that's why they want their gear to be seen all over YouTube. On the other hand, their support treats consumer clients just like business clients. Apaprently, within R&S there is a rift between the marketing department and the support department. They don't work together. The support people don't have a clue what the marketing people are doing and don't understand that they cannot treat consumers like businesses.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kaz911 on December 17, 2020, 11:51:28 am
It is really a sign to management that some people have been employed for too long.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tv84 on December 17, 2020, 11:53:45 am
It is ridiculous that the REAL support is done by a guy in the EEVblog forum who "pulls strings". Honestly, that is NOT a good thing. That is just *embarassing*.

Agree with your msg BUT, at least, there's a guy here. Other brands don't have one (at least visibly) and that is a greater shame.

Nonetheless, support from these A brands SHOULD BE spotless as that's what is usual and universally recognized as one factor that distinguishes them from the other brands and indicated by their prices.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 17, 2020, 12:43:59 pm
Okay, now I'm thinking I made a mistake to buy this scope. "A batch of bad IC's." I sold kits years ago and have been using chips for 25 years, lots of them. You know how many of the chips and uC's went bad? Zero. It's possible one or two went bad but a "batch". Something's wrong there and my guess it's not the chip manufacturer, it's  in design somewhere or R&S cut a corner on specs.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 17, 2020, 12:49:52 pm
Maybe Keysight and Tektronix don't need a guy here! I have their stuff on my bench for years and years with very few issues.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on December 17, 2020, 01:03:47 pm
Our active members here are  Rich from R&S USA and Daniel from Keysight. They are both great guys that helped many here on many occasions.
They both give maximum effort to help us.

Difference is that Keysight as a company is more responsive and willing to listen. Not to say R&S never listens (they do) but Keysight is usually better at that.

Apart from that, there is Siglent presence on the forum, that is also helpful to many. And Siglent also listens sometimes and sometimes don't like them all...

Also there is a very nice guy from Kethley that helps with that, but also seems limited with what is supported by company in the background. But he personally tries very hard too..

Thanks to them all for their effort.

Whatever they can't do is out of their hands, and all we can either hope company will listen, or accept they won't. It's up to each person to figure out which are worth the wait and effort and which aren't, and if some product is trouble free from the start and you just buy that one  and be worry free from the beginning...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fixpoint on December 17, 2020, 01:07:25 pm
Okay, now I'm thinking I made a mistake to buy this scope. "A batch of bad IC's." I sold kits years ago and have been using chips for 25 years, lots of them. You know how many of the chips and uC's went bad? Zero. It's possible one or two went bad but a "batch". Something's wrong there and my guess it's not the chip manufacturer, it's  in design somewhere or R&S cut a corner on specs.

I don't think you made a mistake there. On the one hand I complained above R&S's support above, but on the other hand, I surely can say that the hardware itself is fine, at least from my personal experience. Just remember that people are just speculating.

You know, R&S is constantly attacked in the most nonsensical ways. "This and that is total crap" etc. I think these attacks are only made because people WANT R&S to fail, they want to find something bad. If something doesn't have the right feel to your hand -- CRAP, what else?

At the same time, Rigol and Siglent are constantly praised, no matter what they do, and sometimes what they do is pretty absurd. Remember Siglent's rust? Remember Rigol's awful power supply overheating? Remember Rigol's awful bugs in the 5000 series? I saw this stuff in Dave's videos, and for me that's pretty inacceptable. But they are praised again and again and again while a manufacturer like R&S is harshly attacked because someone doesn't like a probe or whatever.

Rigol and Siglent have the (unfounded) reputation of "test gear for the masses" and as such are praised by people who identify with "the masses" (but actually just want to keep their money for themselves).

I think most of the criticism is not about test gear. It's about social status and self-image.

Many people refrain from criticizing Rigol or Siglent because if they did, they would be nagging killjoys. But they criticize R&S because then they are the ones who are rejecting the "luxury brand" which boosts their self-esteem.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on December 17, 2020, 01:16:45 pm
I said "maybe a bad batch" because every single voltage applied to the chip was in spec, the failure was on on a certain range of the VGA (one of the two pre-amp gains), happened suddenly when a tiny input was being applied to the channel, and the chip did not seem to be being run in a poor thermal environment - I could not see a single thing wrong with the use/implementation. The chip in question has been used in scopes from other manufacturers as well, and is something that I would have considered if I'd ever done a similar design.

I have had bad batches of parts from vendors before - some have been fessed up to with the manufacturer doing their best to help (e.g. Avago), and some where the manufacturer offers the middle finger (e.g. TI).

Given this happened to me and at least one other after ~3 years of use I don't see any reason to blame R&S for using the chip (and not catching a failure mode that took a long time to show up) exactly as it should be used. Any blame should be reserved for the R&S support people and their policies, which are pretty damn poor as discussed earlier.

Finally I'd say that all vendors have their issues - go ask anyone who had a bricked Keysight scope (there was a problem with bad blocks in the flash on a number of models, fixed with a FW update but not before many units failed and I think a special free service option was offered).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on December 17, 2020, 01:37:56 pm
Okay, now I'm thinking I made a mistake to buy this scope. "A batch of bad IC's." I sold kits years ago and have been using chips for 25 years, lots of them. You know how many of the chips and uC's went bad? Zero. It's possible one or two went bad but a "batch". Something's wrong there and my guess it's not the chip manufacturer, it's  in design somewhere or R&S cut a corner on specs.

I don't think you made a mistake there. On the one hand I complained above R&S's support above, but on the other hand, I surely can say that the hardware itself is fine, at least from my personal experience. Just remember that people are just speculating.

You know, R&S is constantly attacked in the most nonsensical ways. "This and that is total crap" etc. I think these attacks are only made because people WANT R&S to fail, they want to find something bad. If something doesn't have the right feel to your hand -- CRAP, what else?

At the same time, Rigol and Siglent are constantly praised, no matter what they do, and sometimes what they do is pretty absurd. Remember Siglent's rust? Remember Rigol's awful power supply overheating? Remember Rigol's awful bugs in the 5000 series? I saw this stuff in Dave's videos, and for me that's pretty inacceptable. But they are praised again and again and again while a manufacturer like R&S is harshly attacked because someone doesn't like a probe or whatever.

Rigol and Siglent have the (unfounded) reputation of "test gear for the masses" and as such are praised by people who identify with "the masses" (but actually just want to keep their money for themselves).

I think most of the criticism is not about test gear. It's about social status and self-image.

Many people refrain from criticizing Rigol or Siglent because if they did, they would be nagging killjoys. But they criticize R&S because then they are the ones who are rejecting the "luxury brand" which boosts their self-esteem.

I don't know about other people, but can say for myself.

I expect R&S to do better than second tier manufacturers. In every aspect. They have a reputation to uphold. And they certainly charge the price that goes with those expectations. So for few thousand € more, I expect them to give better probes than Siglent. And less bugs etc etc.
I don't want to give them any understanding or listen to any excuses, for that kind of money.
If they going to give same level of product (or worse probes than much cheaper Chinese scope) they are not R&S anymore, they are not premium manufacturer anymore (for that product), and I won't be paying only for status and social self image....

That's me, some people don't do any advanced stuff anyway, even basic scope would fulfill their needs, they have money and they are prepared to pay for cool looking scope. And that is fine...

I certainly have many problems with new chipset based Rigol scopes, I find them to be huge disappointment and lost opportunity to make bigger impact on the market. DS7000 series had potential to be serious competition to Keysight 3000T series, but failed short of it many points.

I also have Siglent SDG6000X generator that, while it serves me quite OK, it still has many unfinished and unfixed points in their firmware, and quite frankly I'm not happy at the moment. I wish they would fix it, it's been more than 2 years since release.. They do seem to be doing much better with their scopes though.. But for a 250MHz AWG with I/Q modulation it is not that expensive...
If I paid 8000€ for it  it would be back to manufacturer long ago. If I have bought it from R&S I would bitch about  it here every day..
That is reality, if you're prom queen, even a small bad detail on the dress will get noticed, that wouldn't be on someone else. Price of fame.

So it's a mixed bag. But we should not mix expectations for cheaper products/low prices and premium products/high prices.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: exe on December 17, 2020, 01:41:55 pm
At the same time, Rigol and Siglent are constantly praised, no matter what they do, and sometimes what they do is pretty absurd.

I have a different perception. Rigol and siglent are constantly bashed for their firmware updates (or lack of thereof). To me it looks like on this forum rigol scopes have a reputation of buggy and unpolished devices. Siglent... they did their homework and improved their reputation over last years (largely by tautech).

It is also very personal what to call a problem. I returned my siglent oscilloscope because of triggering offset on falling edge. Since then I have my lovely micsig that doesn't have this problem. How many times I used triggering on falling edge where an offset of 0.2V would make a difference? Zero :). But I felt like was given an inferior piece of hardware which I couldn't trust. Nowadays I wouldn't care at all. Heck, I use a usb oscilloscope most of the time.

I think we all biased, and we see what we want to see.

PS I personally gave up on loving vendors and brands. I only judge actual products. All vendors have good devices, and not so good devices. Imho therm "A-class brand" largely lost its value. I'd say don't make expectations about your favorite companies, or sooner or later they will disappoint.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on December 17, 2020, 10:52:48 pm
I have a different perception. Rigol and siglent are constantly bashed for their firmware updates (or lack of thereof).
OTOH Rigol and Siglent are also praised for their firmware updates which keep drawing attention. I guess they very well understand their is no such thing as bad publicity. If these brands release a piece of equipment that works like it should out of the box it likely doesn't sell well because it doesn't get any attention.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 18, 2020, 12:20:28 am
I just sent a Siglent electronic load back. I called them because it was a $900 instrument and I wasn't happy with how it performed. They gave the update the firmware story but it did zero good.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: exe on December 18, 2020, 11:50:27 am
it was a $900 instrument

Huh, it seems pricing of Asian instruments climbed up quite a bit last years. That's unfortunate, I can't afford such pricing (honestly I just don't want to spend much on my hobby).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 19, 2020, 09:17:10 pm
Look on ebay. Dave, Eddie Aho and others have been having lots of fun with cheap power supplies and signal generators that might work for you. Check out YT if you haven't yet.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: The Bootloader on December 20, 2020, 12:37:22 am
Years ago, I got a batch of bad ST232 (a MAX232 clone) from a super reputable distributor. They were duds. I called them and they replaced the components, no questions asked (it was a small-ish quantity, around 100).
The reason I mention this is that yes, sometimes, bad batches do happen. That's the reason why you need to test every single assembled product, but the test surface needed for a scope is pretty big and it's possible to miss things.

Another situation I was in is that I was using a logic level shifter and got the same exact part from another manufacturer due to a supply chain shortage. You'd figure the same part number from different manufacturers would behave the same way right ? Wrong ! In a very specific corner case we ended up relying on without noticing it, the new chip behaved totally differently. Our testing didn't catch it immediately. So we had a full batch of PCBAs which were not doing what they should and we ended up needing to be "innovative" in the firmware to work around it...

So yeah, sh*t happens.

Coincidentally I do have a RTB on order and there is a delay of several weeks, so maybe they are working on fixing some things before shipping (which would be good)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 22, 2020, 11:36:37 pm
I don't want to give the wrong impression here. The RTB is a really good scope - part of equipment is customer service and it is there that I have my issues with R&S.

 I appreciate what Rich does here also.

Good luck with your new scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: chicken on December 26, 2020, 01:06:40 am
FWIW, I just bought some cheap scope probe caps from eBay. They fit and the spring action is now nice and smooth without seizing.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-Universal-oscilloscope-probe-cap-protective-cap-probe-caps-black-grey-with/272998150906 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-Universal-oscilloscope-probe-cap-protective-cap-probe-caps-black-grey-with/272998150906)
Caveat: No idea if they have any negative impact on performance.

And I'm definitely echoing the sentiment of Robaroni et al. The RTB is a great scope and a pleasure to use, just a few minor niggles about corners cut a bit too close.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Harjit on December 26, 2020, 02:36:59 am
When you are calibrating your RT-ZP03 probes, how clean is the top - right after the rising edge.

I calibrated all of mine and they are quite "ratty" i.e. lots of ringing. I was never able to get a clean waveform for the second step where you adjust the two trim pots near where the probe attaches to the scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on December 31, 2020, 01:21:14 am
When you are calibrating your RT-ZP03 probes, how clean is the top - right after the rising edge.

I calibrated all of mine and they are quite "ratty" i.e. lots of ringing. I was never able to get a clean waveform for the second step where you adjust the two trim pots near where the probe attaches to the scope.

How long is a piece of string? I too have some residual ringing (or a slow edge), seems fine to me, however, and the "it's-okay-o-meter" on the right shows "spot on, green". The okay-o-meter does fluctuate quite a bit for the second step tough, and there are wildly different ringing-vs-risetime tradeoffs possible for the same "A-okay" readings, so I kinda eyeballed it for a good compromise.

Maybe show a screenshot of your probe adjustment?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on December 31, 2020, 02:00:23 am
I'm fiddling with a new RTB2k that landed on my bench a few days ago  ;D
Great scope, (quite) a bit more expensive than the Siglent competition, but so far I really like the comparably unquirky well thought out UI and the low noise 10bit frontend that were the differentiators for me. And despite the premium compared with the Chinese brands, the price was actually quite nice with the ongoing R&S promo and a good deal from my distributor (Batronix. Highly recommended!)

However, I'm struggling a bit with what seems to be some idiosyncrasies when protocol-analysing an I2C bus at the limit of sampling memory. The scope seems to highlight protocol errors where I think it should still decode fine based on the analogue channels, and upon closer inspection also the timing of the logic transitions detected by the protocol engine seems off.
To wit:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=1142252;image)
I've highlighted in red where (I think) the protocol engine thinks SDA changed while SCL was high, red-marking that entire part of the frame as error.
I've highlighted in blue that apparently the protocol engine has some -0.6us delay in the SCL logic edges wrt the SCL edges in Ch2.


Zooming right in and looking at dots with no interpolation and peak-detect mode, there really seems no reason why the edges should not be properly detected, the SCL and SDA edges seem to be sharp and some 5-6 samples apart:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=1142256;image)

And similar frames with similar timing are detected okay:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/?action=dlattach;attach=1142260;image)
(Although the weird offset between logic edges and analog edges is seen also here)

Am I missing something obvious here, or is the timing really wonky in the protocol decoder?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on December 31, 2020, 08:47:49 am
You made the right choice, congratulations!  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on December 31, 2020, 11:32:58 am
However, I'm struggling a bit with what seems to be some idiosyncrasies when protocol-analysing an I2C bus at the limit of sampling memory. The scope seems to highlight protocol errors where I think it should still decode fine based on the analogue channels, and upon closer inspection also the timing of the logic transitions detected by the protocol engine seems off.

I've highlighted in red where (I think) the protocol engine thinks SDA changed while SCL was high, red-marking that entire part of the frame as error.
I've highlighted in blue that apparently the protocol engine has some -0.6us delay in the SCL logic edges wrt the SCL edges in Ch2.
What does the I2C specification say about timing for 400kHz? I think your I2C bus might violate I2C timing.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on December 31, 2020, 01:07:00 pm
You made the right choice, congratulations!  ;)

Thanks, in part, to your measurements and comments! And also in part thanks to the hissy fits people throw in some threads right now, justifying wonky Siglent UI choices that would annoy me to no end ;-)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on December 31, 2020, 02:00:53 pm
What does the I2C specification say about timing for 400kHz? I think your I2C bus might violate I2C timing.

Data Valid time for Data (i.e. SCL falling edge to SDA transition) in FS mode shall be t_VD;DAT>0.9us. In the above example we’re talking about of order 150ns.
So indeed, this device is not I2C compliant. Well spotted! (and to be clear, since this often does not get across on the net: I do not mean this sarcastically)

Be that as it may, we’re not talking about the DUT’s misbehaviour, but about apparent idiosyncrasies of the scope being used to debug the DUT’s noncompliance:

1) The same noncompliant timing is not flagged as error one segment later, so it clearly is not an out-of-spec flag.
2) The same noncompliant timing is not flagged as error at a higher sample rate, but this limits the capture length. (Here the Siglent could actually have an advantage due to the RTB having “only” 10MPts)
3) The RTB should have sufficient samples to properly decode at this sample rate, the edges are cleanly resolved and separated. Looking at the data, I don’t think this should be borderline for the scope.
4) The RTB shows a weird delay in the timing of the detected logic levels underlying the protocol decode wrt the analogue channels that drive the protocol decoder. This is actually of an order of magnitude that would make spotting the exact I2C noncompliance you spotted difficult, if you don’t keep the analogue channels on-screen - which kinda defeats the purpose of the brilliant “bits” display R&S came up with.

Originally I figured maybe I’m “holding it wrong”, eg that maybe I’d have to fiddle with thresholds more. No dice. (Thresholds are displayed in my screenshots).
Or that maybe there was some noise or slow edges. Nope, peak-detect signal without interpolation shows a clean edge.

So the question is: is this expected behaviour? How much sample margin does one need to rely on the decoder? Can one trust the timing of the displayed “bits”?

Do you see this in your RTBs (&RTM in the case of Nico)?
In the case of Max: would you know how this stacks up to your SDS2k+?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on December 31, 2020, 02:35:44 pm
From my tests it seemed that I2C decoding works up to 40Mbit/s at the maximum samplerate of the RTM3004. The minimum oversampling factor turns out to be around 62.5. So your 41Msamples/s translates to a decoding samplerate of about 656kHz (this is a very crude estimate). Be aware though that the protocol decoding feature is a decoder and not a protocol timing verification tester. If you increase the samplerate you should be seeing better decoding results though.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on December 31, 2020, 07:09:35 pm
Yep, the protocol decoder is not a compliance tester. (I don't plan to use it as such). Still would be handy to have some more info about why it thinks a specific frame has an error. The UI gives only fairly generic error codes like "Data+Stop", and the SCPI commands to check a frame's status (eg BUS1:I2C:FRAM4:STAT?) are not much better: INC,UNEX. Would have been nice to see where exactly the decode went wrong. Not for compliance checking, but debugging. But this is wishful thinking, if I think about having to implement something like this... /me shudders.

Still, my 400kHz bus seems to decode reliably with 62.5MSa/s, but not with 41.7MSa/s. A 100kHz bus decodes with 41.7MSa/s, but not with 15.6MSa/s. So from this, it seems the oversampling the RTB's decode engine needs is rather of order 150 than 62.5 I mean: it's good to know the limits, and I'll certainly be able to use it, but looking a the data I'm surprised we'd need so many samples to decode without flagging an error.

About the delay in the bits shown in the decode: The logic channels don't show a similar delay wrt the analogue channels, but a bus decode using the logic channels shows the same delay between the "bits" and the logic channels. So this is quite definitely not due to any threshold issues, noise, jitter what have you.
Looks like a bug to me, tbh. Can another RTB user confirm this?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on January 08, 2021, 10:00:04 am
Somebody else had the luck?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on January 08, 2021, 06:47:57 pm
Somebody else had the luck?

Could you be a bit more explicit what the issue is (N/A timebases?) and what the circumstances were?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on January 09, 2021, 08:33:30 am
 Of course, the lack of five digits! No circumstances other than the latest firmware. If I'm not mistaken, this is the first time I used this menu after FW installation.
 That is, this problem no one sees?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on January 09, 2021, 09:38:01 am
For me, the shortest time-bases do appear in the menu.
What's weird is that you appear to be at 2ns per div. Does that mean you can access the shortest time bases by turning the vertical scale knob?

I don't mean to be obnoxious, but it would really help if you could describe the circumstances in more detail. I don't know - maybe there's some setting active that limits sample rate and hence the shortest time bases are unavailable?

What happens if you hit "preset"? Do the time bases appear in the menu then?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on January 09, 2021, 02:44:00 pm
 I decided to investigate the problem. To my surprise it was not possible to find the problem.
 Experts read our messages, I hope that my case will be useful.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: seronday on January 11, 2021, 04:22:26 am
RTB2004  Horizontal Position adjustment.

I had the use an RTB2004 for a job recently and noticed that at horizontal timebase settings of 40ns/div and faster, the Horizontal Position
control moves in steps of 400ps.
This means that at a setting of 1ns/div, the horizontal position moves in steps of 0.4div., which is very coarse.

I am curious if this is normal for these instruments, or if this particular device has a fault or is there a setting to change this ?

Regards.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on January 11, 2021, 08:51:34 pm
It's the exactly same for my scope. This is not a malfunction, but a feature of these devices.
Probably because the 10, 5, 2 and 1 ns timebase is an artificial "stretching" of the waveform from 20 ns and has a fixed offset step is 400 ps
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on January 11, 2021, 10:34:48 pm
400ps is 1/2.5GS, so it probably doesn't make a lot of sense to have steps that are less than the sample interval.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: seronday on January 12, 2021, 12:00:12 am
maxspb69,   Thanks for confirming this behaviour.

Other DSO's that I have used generally use steps of 0.01 of the time/div setting for the horiz position on all ranges.
( Tek, Agilent, Siglent, Rigol )

I wonder if this was intentional in the RTB2004 or is a mistake in the firmware ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on January 12, 2021, 08:37:46 pm
Interestingly, if you record the waveform to REF, then it can be horizontally shifted with a much smaller step. I think that R&S programmers just didn’t bother with a smooth horizontally shift at fast timebase.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on January 12, 2021, 10:23:00 pm
Yeah, I think so too. For the user, it totally makes sense to have smaller steps than the sample time: They just want to align stuff on the screen.

But for the software, this now likely means that there would be two ways, in two layers, to shift waveforms: The more "hardware" close one that shifts samples, and the "soft" one that shifts representation by smaller units, with potentially some tricky edge cases (beginning and end of the capture buffer), and support throughout the system.

Does not mean that it's not possible or not feasible, just seems that R&S chose not to add that complexity. Might be a good thing if that complexity increased likeliness for bugs, slow down development, and maybe even preclude other features from existing because making them work would now be too complex. But maybe it would be trivial... without knowing the architecture and code in detail, who knows.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on January 13, 2021, 07:32:57 pm
The FFT function still has significant bug. Display of false harmonics of the SinC signal depending on the start and end frequencies of the displayed bandwith. Does not depend on RBW parameter, only on the selected BW. Same on other channel. A serious problem that does not allow you to trust the "spectrum analyzer" on the RTB2000. Firmware - last 2.300. BW of oscilloscope - 200MHz (Option).
Signal from internal Gen, SinC, 1MHz, 1Vpp. No depend of signal freequency and amplitude. Same on some other waveforms - false harmonics.

Rich, if possible, inform the programmers.

https://youtu.be/zsDhQz4P1ro (https://youtu.be/zsDhQz4P1ro)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on January 13, 2021, 09:13:52 pm
What window are you using?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on January 13, 2021, 09:40:53 pm
Yeah, this just sounds like the fundamental problem that Fourier Transforms always have, mathematically? That's why windows exist, and that's why you have to choose windows based on the parameters you care about (there is no single "perfect" window).

If you choose a rectangular window for example, then you effectively convolute your spectrum with the sinc function, leading to significant side lobes:
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/sasp/Rectangular_Window_Side_Lobes.html

You can choose other windows that reduce the side lobes, but usually at the expense of resolution.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on January 13, 2021, 09:47:20 pm
It is independent of the window. Any of these: FlatTop, Hanning, Rect etc. gives the same false harmonic result. Each RTB2000 owner can verify this on his own.

For comparison, Siglent SDS2000X+ and Keysight DSO3034 provides an adequate spectrum for all settings and situations.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on January 13, 2021, 09:50:56 pm
Here's a simple thought experiment that may illustrate intuitively that's going on:

Imagine a continuous signal. Whether it be a simple sinusoid or the sinc function you chose, does not matter very much. Now take a window (i.e. a part) of this waveform, picking your start and end arbitrarily, but pick something where the ends don't taper off, i.e. where the curve is in "mid swing".

Now pretend that the part of the signal you've taken out is not part of a larger signal, but stands on its own, generated exactly like that. Starting and ending abruptly. Since the waveform starts and/or ends in "mid-swing", the first or last data point will be an abstract jump from 0 to wherever the curve starts or ends, with basically infinite slope. But that's a high frequency signal component.

Window functions like Hann, Hamming, Blackman et al help by usually "tapering" the part of the signal you chose at both ends. But this is not perfect. There is no generic perfect solution, unless you capture an infinite signal. Just how you cannot know all frequency components of a signal without sampling it with an infinitesimally small sample size.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on January 13, 2021, 09:52:45 pm
It is independent of the window. Any of these: FlatTop, Hanning, Rect etc. gives the same false harmonic result. Each RTB2000 owner can verify this on his own.

For comparison, Siglent SDS2000X+ and Keysight DSO3034 provides an adequate spectrum for all settings and situations.

Can you show us that? Maybe there is an actual bug on how the RTB applies the window function, I'd sure want to know that. Be sure to include what window was chosen on either scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on January 13, 2021, 09:57:29 pm
The second situation where a false harmonic is observed is a simple 433.9 MHz generator, which produces a fairly clean sine signal and spectrum. RTB2000, in addition to the fundamental frequency, always shows a false harmonic at exactly 382 MHz, the other two my scopes (Siglent and Keysigth) - only one  peak at 433.9 in the 200 MHz span.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on January 13, 2021, 10:00:15 pm
Quote
Can you show us that? Maybe there is an actual bug on how the RTB applies the window function, I'd sure want to know that. Be sure to include what window was chosen on either scope.

Ok, but tomorrow. :)))

But you yourself can easily reproduce the situation. RTB2000 and a 50Ohm cable with an BNC connectors are enough for this :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on January 14, 2021, 01:18:52 am
After playing around a bit myself, I think we're seeing aliasing artefacts. I'm not sure yet if this is just due to the limited oversampling, or something more funky due to the AWG and ADC clocks or distortion from the AWG creating a signal with higher frequency content than expected.
Haven't tried yet with a separate frequency generator, that will be helpful to differentiate.

To see what I mean, try out a more simple scenario than your sinc example, eg a square wave or even a simple sine wave, set the frequency to eg 1/4 of the sample rate, and tune the frequency of the generated signal up and down a bit.
The jumpiness of the effect you see in your video is just the sample rate changing to accommodate the changing stop frequency of the fft when you pan the fft.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on January 14, 2021, 06:42:05 am
I tried with an external generator - the same result.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on January 14, 2021, 06:47:21 pm
Extended version of yesterday's video about FFT. The built-in Siglent generator is used so that there is no dependence on RTB2000. False harmonics on RTB2000 strongly depend on the span (the narrower the more there are). They do not depend on the selected window in anyway. Demonstrating on screens of two different scopes. Siglent always shows the expected adequate spectrum picture. RTB often adds harmonics from itself :)

https://youtu.be/cjJ-yCplxBU

Or am I doing something wrong?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on January 14, 2021, 08:43:12 pm
Or am I doing something wrong?
Yes. Look at the samplerate on the RTB2004!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on January 14, 2021, 09:16:45 pm
On RTB2000 you cannot control the samplerate in FFT mode. Scope  chooses samplerate  himself depending on the  center frequency, span and RBW settings.
If the cause of phantom harmonics is a low samplerate, then the scope is choosing it incorrectly for current span/RBW and this is an error in any case.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on January 14, 2021, 09:24:09 pm
On RTB2000 you cannot control the samplerate in FFT mode. Scope  chooses samplerate  himself depending on the  center frequency, span and RBW settings.
If the cause of phantom harmonics is a low samplerate, then the scope is choosing it incorrectly for current span/RBW and this is an error in any case.
No. You are analysing a signal with the wrong settings. The samplerate is sufficient to fulfill the Nyquist criteria for the FFT settings.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on January 14, 2021, 11:03:38 pm
If the cause of phantom harmonics is a low samplerate
We're not seeing "phantom harmonics", but aliasing. The test case you're looking at is much too complex to see this easily though.
A better example is to set a sine wave to a frequency near e.g. slightly below 1/3 of the sample rate, and tune the frequency up until slightly above 1/3 of the sample rate.
For example:
fft stop frequency 2.4MHz has the RTB choose a sample rate f_sample=6.25MSa/s. Let's look at signals around f_signal=f_sample/3=2.0833MHz. I attach a sequence of screenshots with a sine wave of f_signal=2.077MHz, 2.080MHz, 2.083MHz, 2.086MHz 2.089MHz. You can see how the aliasing artefacts move in and then out again around f_sample/3. In the time domain you can also see the aliasing very clearly as beating.

[attach=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
[attach=4]
[attach=5]

When you chose a more complex waveform, the harmonics of the wave have the same aliasing, at the same absolute frequency differences, but this results in different relative frequency differences. The result is a nice comb of the harmonics folded down around our base frequency:
[attach=6]

I'm not quite certain yet why we see aliasing for a band-limited waveform entirely below the Nyquist frequency (f_Nyquist=3.125MHz and f_signal=2.089MHz in our example), when we place the signal frequency close to an integer fraction of the sampling frequency. Has been some time since I ran the math myself or played around in octave, I have to admit...
Is this fundamental? Due to finite record lengths (but windowing doesn't really improve it)? Are we effectively downsampling somewhere? Some weird harmonics creating signal components above f_Nyquist? I have to think a bit more about it, but if somebody can already see the solution, let us know :-)

What's clear is that f_sample of 6.25MSa/s is less than ideal for signals around 2MHz. Just to give a gut-feeling, here is the situation in time domain, without interpolation:
[attach=7]
I think it's pretty obvious this samplerate is not the best basis for a good analysis...

The question now is, why is the samplerate so low?
On RTB2000 you cannot control the samplerate in FFT mode. Scope  chooses samplerate  himself depending on the  center frequency, span and RBW settings.
If the cause of phantom harmonics is a low samplerate, then the scope is choosing it incorrectly for current span/RBW and this is an error in any case.
No. You are analysing a signal with the wrong settings. The samplerate is sufficient to fulfill the Nyquist criteria for the FFT settings.
@Nico, you're right, the samplerate is sufficient to fulfil Nyquist at the FFT settings. But we still clearly see aliasing.
And max is right as well: the RTB2k does not give the option to choose a different sample rate. Actually, this is infuriating:
The sample rate is chosen automatically to sit a step or two above Nyquist for the chosen stop frequency. Even without this weird aliasing, there are situations where you know you have frequency components above the automatically chosen Nyquist, but you're zooming the FFT to look at a lower frequency component. You cannot avoid downconverting some stuff into your lower-freq fft band of interest in that scenario!

Unless I just missed how to set the sample-rate. @Nico: how does this work in the RTM?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on January 14, 2021, 11:15:40 pm
The sample rate is chosen automatically to sit a step or two above Nyquist for the chosen stop frequency. Even without this weird aliasing, there are situations where you know you have frequency components above the automatically chosen Nyquist, but you're zooming the FFT to look at a lower frequency component. You cannot avoid downconverting some stuff into your lower-freq fft band of interest in that scenario!

Unless I just missed how to set the sample-rate. @Nico: how does this work in the RTM?
On the RTM3004 it works the same. You have to set the RBW stop frequency to be above the highest frequency in the signal to avoid aliasing. But in the end there is a limited number of FFT points which limits the frequency resolution. The only way around is to limit the frequency spectrum of the incoming signal to make sure there is no aliasing. This is true no matter what the FFT depth is.

Edit: not RBW but 'stop frequency'. Long day...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on January 15, 2021, 12:14:28 am
I suppose the scope could oversample and digitally lowpass filter the signal before the FFT, but I don't know if that's commonly done. And I don't know if I would consider that intuitive/expected (unless it was an explicit option) either.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on January 15, 2021, 12:48:41 am
On the RTM3004 it works the same. You have to set the RBW to be above the highest frequency in the signal to avoid aliasing. But in the end there is a limited number of FFT points which limits the frequency resolution. The only way around is to limit the frequency spectrum of the incoming signal to make sure there is no aliasing. This is true no matter what the FFT depth is.

Huh? Do you really mean the RBW?
On the RTB changing the RBW just changes the "Time Range", i.e. the how long a window from the time domain capture is used for the FFT. The actual acquisition is not touched, the sample rate remains constant. The only way to increase the sample rate is to increase the max frequency displayed in the fft.
Is this different on the RTM?

I suppose the scope could oversample and digitally lowpass filter the signal before the FFT, but I don't know if that's commonly done. And I don't know if I would consider that intuitive/expected (unless it was an explicit option) either.
Maybe I'm being daft, but I don't yet see the need to digitally lowpass filter beyond just cutting the top end of the fft as the user asks. Pretty much what happens with the low-frequency end of the fft when you don't display down to DC, unless I'm missing something.
If the user is fine with a lower RBW, the scope could up the sample rate and just display the fft only up to the chosen stop frequency.
In the example in the below screenshot, I keep the fft start and stop frequency as before, but relax RBW to 16kHz. This reduces the time window to 90.24us (down from 3.97ms in the previous examples with an RBW of 362Hz). This fft uses just 564 points.
The scope could display the same range of the fft, but increase sampling to the full 2.5GSa/s, and still not hit the 128kpoint fft limit. It would be a lot slower, but I would like to have the option.

@nico, is this how it's on the RTM?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on January 15, 2021, 12:53:59 am
Maybe I'm being daft, but I don't yet see the need to digitally lowpass filter beyond just cutting the top end of the fft as the user asks. Pretty much what happens with the low-frequency end of the fft when you don't display down to DC, unless I'm missing something.

If you sample at a low sample rate (or really any sample rate, but illustratively for here), then any component of the signal with a frequency above half the sample rate (for real signals) will get folded into the range from 0 to half the sample rate: Aliasing.

If you'd instead, for example, sample at the full sample rate of the scope, then lowpass filter, and then downsample, then there are no components left at frequencies over half the sample rate that could alias back into it.

For anything that's over the scope's bandwidth, that's of course already filtered by... well, the frontend, the very definition of the scope's "analog bandwidth", so that shouldn't be an issue.

But it's entirely possible that *I* am the one being daft right now. 8)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on January 15, 2021, 01:07:24 am
... okay. There definitely is more going on here than simple undersampling.
I've tried an experiment with a definitely not undersampled signal, and there's spurious galore which move like aliasing as shown in the more modestly sampled example above.

The first screenshot shows a square-wave example like before. f_sample=6.25MSa/s, f_signal is very close to 1/3 f_sample at f_signal=2.08MHz. Same frequency ratios as before. RBW is reduced to 1.81kHz to be able to keep it constant. For that reason I've also chosen a square wave, so that we can see the spurious better.
[attach=1]

Now, the same signal at a stop frequency of 10MHz, for which the RTB choses f_sample=31.2MHz. The signal now lies close to f_sample/15. If it was just undersampling, we'd expect to see the 2.08MHz signal and the 6.24MHz 3rd harmonic. Instead, we see some spurs near the second harmonic, and loads of spurs both around the fundamental as well as the third harmonic.
[attach=2]
Those spurious move about like aliases when the fundamental is moved around a integer fraction of the sample rate, as before in the more simple sine example. I'll not bother to create a gazillion screenshots to demonstrate that though, as it clearly is not just undersampling and aliasing.

I start to concur with maxspb69. Something fishy is imho going on. Those spurs should not appear.

@Rich, are you there?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on January 15, 2021, 01:11:50 am
If you sample at a low sample rate (or really any sample rate, but illustratively for here), then any component of the signal with a frequency above half the sample rate (for real signals) will get folded into the range from 0 to half the sample rate: Aliasing.

If you'd instead, for example, sample at the full sample rate of the scope, then lowpass filter, and then downsample, then there are no components left at frequencies over half the sample rate that could alias back into it.

Trudat.
However, the most simple low-pass filter could be simply "don't display the calculated fft beyond f_stop". I think this is what happens to the poor fft points below f_start (but not being a DSP wizard I might be mistaken).

It would be wasteful of resources, but there can be scenarios where it makes sense.

... but anyway, that's not the main point. The spurious seen in the fft are not from undersampling, see the experiment in my last post.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on January 15, 2021, 01:31:22 am
However, the most simple low-pass filter could be simply "don't display the calculated fft beyond f_stop". I think this is what happens to the poor fft points below f_start (but not being a DSP wizard I might be mistaken).

Oh, you mean always sample at the full sample rate, and never downsample? But that means that you fit much less of the waveform in memory... wouldn't that be an issue here as well?

Because as soon as you downsample/sample at a lower rate without filtering beforehand, well, there's your aliasing again.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on January 15, 2021, 01:44:54 am
Oh, you mean always sample at the full sample rate, and never downsample? But that means that you fit much less of the waveform in memory... wouldn't that be an issue here as well?

Not necessarily the full sample rate, but selectable sample rate up to full or whatever fits into the fft buffer.

The way it's implemented now, if you reduce the RBW, but keep the same stop frequency, the scope just wastes samples. They're up there in the time domain plot, but not used for the fft. This can be useful to check eg the fft of a short event visible in the time domain plot, or it can increase the frame rate as you have a lot less points to transform.
But it would be handy to have the choice...
Take a look at my RBW 16kHz screenshot a few posts above.

... but again: while this would be a nice feature (which I think other scopes do have?), this is besides the point for the issue maxspb69 uncovered. Higher sampling rate does NOT seem to help, the issue appeared at f_signal=f_sample/15, which should be plenty for a square wave. It does appear however when there's frequency components close to an integer fraction of the sample rate, which seems fishy to me.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on January 15, 2021, 09:42:06 am
On the RTM3004 it works the same. You have to set the RBW to be above the highest frequency in the signal to avoid aliasing. But in the end there is a limited number of FFT points which limits the frequency resolution. The only way around is to limit the frequency spectrum of the incoming signal to make sure there is no aliasing. This is true no matter what the FFT depth is.

Huh? Do you really mean the RBW?
No, I made a typo. It has to be stop frequency. I fixed my posting.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on January 15, 2021, 09:58:39 am
@nico, do you see spurs like this appearing for signals close to integer fractions of the sample rate on the RTM as well?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on January 15, 2021, 10:12:48 am
@maxspb69 same question for the SDS2k+. Could you try to place a signal close to the sample rate the SDS2k+ chooses, and see if you see spurs?

In your videos it looked like the sample rate was 100MSa/s, so the situation will be very different. Maybe it will be useful to limit the sample rate to create a more comparable situation.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on January 15, 2021, 10:23:48 am
@maxspb69 same question for the SDS2k+. Could you try to place a signal close to the sample rate the SDS2k+ chooses, and see if you see spurs?

In your videos it looked like the sample rate was 100MSa/s, so the situation will be very different. Maybe it will be useful to limit the sample rate to create a more comparable situation.
Typically Siglents do better FFT with a slow timebase setting with lots of periods displayed however you're up against it with the SDS2000X Plus 2 Mpts FFT.
Just been playing with their new economy SDS1104X-U and while it's limited to just 128 Kpts FFT it does a decent job in the short while I've been fiddling with it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on January 15, 2021, 10:41:12 am
Thanks tautech.
Could you try explicitly setting a signal very close to an integer fraction of the sample rate? I think this is what's causing the spurs and it would be interesting to see if the problem does not occur in other implementations.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on January 15, 2021, 11:21:41 am
Problem is that realtime FFT based spectral analysis cannot have all the combinations of sample rate RBW and bandwidth, like classic SA.
Without going too much in detail, it simply means this: if you want to look at 10 MHz with span of +- 1 MHz, that means you need to calculate FFT from 0 to 12 MHz, and then only show from 9-11Mhz. To do that , you need to sample at least at 25 MHz, and to get wanted RBW you need to get enough FFT bins to achieve it. It is not like with standard SA that can have constant RBW anywhere in a full span, and capture only bandwidth of interest. In reality you also might want to oversample a bit to avoid aliasing.

Spectrum analysis option on RTM3000 should use more advanced algorithms borrowed from realtime SA (R&S should know how that's done!) like overlaped FFT and many other tricks. I would be surprised if that one shows same problems.

I agree with Zlotnik (golden coin  ^-^), problem is that you don't have control over sampling rate. I like how Keysight implemented this, timebase fixes sampling rate, FFT will show you what is possible with that sample rate.  Also Picoscope has interesting implementation, they don't pretend it is SA, they simply do FFT from 0 to 1/2 sample rate, number of bins defines RBW as percentage of sample rate, and if you wan't to see something in the middle you zoom in on the screen... It seems weird to someone coming from SA, but is consistent with how FFT works, so no surprises.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on January 15, 2021, 11:51:47 am
Problem is that realtime FFT based spectral analysis cannot have all the combinations of sample rate RBW and bandwidth, like classic SA.
Without going too much in detail, it simply means this: if you want to look at 10 MHz with span of +- 1 MHz, that means you need to calculate FFT from 0 to 12 MHz, and then only show from 9-11Mhz. To do that , you need to sample at least at 25 MHz, and to get wanted RBW you need to get enough FFT bins to achieve it. It is not like with standard SA that can have constant RBW anywhere in a full span, and capture only bandwidth of interest. In reality you also might want to oversample a bit to avoid aliasing.

Yep, I get that.
That's why I meant that it would be useful in some situations to have more control over the sample rate that the RTB2k gives, eg to avoid aliasing at the expense of RBW and update rate, when you know there are some components that would alias down into your frequency range of interest.

Quote
Spectrum analysis option on RTM3000 should use more advanced algorithms borrowed from realtime SA (R&S should know how that's done!) like overlaped FFT and many other tricks. I would be surprised if that one shows same problems.
I'm hanging on the edge of my seat to see what Nico reports from his RTM3k. And expect to be jealous.

Quote
I agree with Zlotnik (golden coin  ^-^),
Hehe. Indeed one of my non-electronics hobbies is goldsmithing.
It's a really old handle named for Pitr from the old User Friendly webcomic, though.

Quote
problem is that you don't have control over sampling rate. I like how Keysight implemented this, timebase fixes sampling rate, FFT will show you what is possible with that sample rate.  Also Picoscope has interesting implementation, they don't pretend it is SA, they simply do FFT from 0 to 1/2 sample rate, number of bins defines RBW as percentage of sample rate, and if you wan't to see something in the middle you zoom in on the screen... It seems weird to someone coming from SA, but is consistent with how FFT works, so no surprises.

In principle I like the SA style approach a lot. When I look at the fft I'm not interested in the technicalities of the transform, but in the spectrogram. So setting parameters in the spectrogram makes more intuitive sense to me than thinking about Fourier transforms.
(Yes. You do need to understand what's going on under the hood).
I would prefer to be able to simply tap the sample rate, and increase it if I think it's needed. Then the update rate should drop, and at some point the RBW should increase.

But again: the sample rate does not seem to be the problem! There's spurs that appear in some scenarios. Sometimes they're barely noticeable, but in some scenarios they're all over the screen, at the level of the signals real harmonics. Eg when you place a square wave close to an integer fraction of the sample rate. (Actually: probably also for other rational fractions)
That way you cannot trust the fft, and unless I'm missing something very fundamental I think this is a major flaw.

Actually this would be exactly the kind of flaw that made me opt to shell out for an A brand scope instead of eg the SDS2k+. I was sick of my old Rigol, and a bit turned back by the idiosyncrasies discussed in the SDS2k+ thread. The RTB2k seemed to have less features and sticker figures, but seemed more reliable and polished. Hope I'm not proven wrong.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on January 15, 2021, 01:54:33 pm
Now you understand why I bought both of them in the end ?! Each of them has its own disadvantages and advantages :)

Two different scopes are much closer to ideal than one. Even if this one scope  is Rohde&Schwarz! :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on January 15, 2021, 06:46:32 pm
Spectrum analysis option on RTM3000 should use more advanced algorithms borrowed from realtime SA (R&S should know how that's done!) like overlaped FFT and many other tricks. I would be surprised if that one shows same problems.
I'm hanging on the edge of my seat to see what Nico reports from his RTM3k. And expect to be jealous.
No. I already did some tests on the RTM3004 and it shows exactly the same behaviour. The RTM3004 is pretty similar to the RTB2004 where it comes how the functionality is implemented.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on January 15, 2021, 07:20:00 pm
Spectrum analysis option on RTM3000 should use more advanced algorithms borrowed from realtime SA (R&S should know how that's done!) like overlaped FFT and many other tricks. I would be surprised if that one shows same problems.
I'm hanging on the edge of my seat to see what Nico reports from his RTM3k. And expect to be jealous.
No. I already did some tests on the RTM3004 and it shows exactly the same behaviour. The RTM3004 is pretty similar to the RTB2004 where it comes how the functionality is implemented.

That is weird.. Definitely needs investigation. Not something I would expect from R&S, really..
I will try to recreate same circumstances on my equipment.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on January 15, 2021, 09:06:37 pm
Having experimented more with two oscilloscopes (SDS2K+ & RTB2000), I seem to understand why SDS2K+ shows phantom peaks much less often than RTB2000 (although this can also be achieved on SDS2K+). The fact is that the SDS2K+ keeps the maximum sampling rate and decreases it only when there is not enough memory (and it has 10 times more memory). Plus SDS2K+ allows you to control the timebase (hence the length of the captured signal) in the FFT mode. These two facts allow it to display a much more real spectrogram.
RTB2000 really needs the ability to manual control the sampling rate/timebase in the FFT mode, then there will be less problems. RTB reduces the sampling rate unacceptably low when narrowing the span, as a result, if I understand correctly,  aliasing and the display of non-existent harmonics appear in some situations.
This is a payment for a user-friendly interface "like on a spectrum analyzer"
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on January 15, 2021, 09:10:43 pm
No. I already did some tests on the RTM3004 and it shows exactly the same behaviour. The RTM3004 is pretty similar to the RTB2004 where it comes how the functionality is implemented.

Do you mean the control of sampling rate in fft mode, or the spurs?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Zlotnik on January 15, 2021, 09:19:05 pm
The RTB2000 really needs the ability to manual control the sampling rate/timebase in the FFT mode, then there will be less problems. RTB reduces the sampling rate unacceptably low when narrowing the span, as a result, if I understand correctly,  aliasing and the display of non-existent harmonics appear in some situations.
This is a payment for a user-friendly interface "like on a spectrum analyzer"

Agreed. I think this can be done with a "SA like" UI though: the RTB displays the current sampling rate. You could change it by touching it, and once the record length is too long for the fft, reduce the RBW.

However, there seems to be more going on. Some of the examples above were not undersampled, I think. So where do the spurs come from, that appear for signals close to integral (rational?) fractions of the sample rate?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on January 15, 2021, 09:25:51 pm
My experiments show that spurs appear not only when the signal frequency is close to whole fractions of the sampling rate. Spurs appeared both at 1 MHz and at 960 kHz and at 871 kHz for the UpRamp signal (FFT parameters: span 12 MHz and starting frequency 0). There are some ratios of frequencies that RTB2000 "does not like very much."  ;)

For comparison: I managed to get spurs on the SDS2K+, but there I had to work hard to find the frequency at which they appeared. But in any case, they instantly disappear as soon as you change the timebase by 1 step. (SDS2K+ not allow to manage sampling rate, but keeps it as maximum as possible - 2Gs/s in almost the entire range of timebase)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on January 15, 2021, 09:43:49 pm
No. I already did some tests on the RTM3004 and it shows exactly the same behaviour. The RTM3004 is pretty similar to the RTB2004 where it comes how the functionality is implemented.

Do you mean the control of sampling rate in fft mode, or the spurs?
Both. There is no control of sampling rate so you'll get the same spurs if a signal is undersampled. I can do some tests if someone comes up with a specific test scenario.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Dunckx on March 14, 2021, 10:19:27 pm
Hi Folks,

Thanks to friendly forumites I was greatly aided in my struggle to decide which digital scope I should buy (I've used a dual channel CRT scope for 35 years and this will be my first digital) and had just reached the point where the RTB2002 was top of the list and after I get paid a week from now, was intending to buy one.

I was reading through the literature (always a good idea to RTFM) and found something I could use clarification on.  On page 4 of the RTB2000 Specifications datasheet under Vertical System "maximum input voltage" I see the following: "300V (RMS), max. 400V (Vp) derates at 20dB/decade to 5V (RMS) above 250kHz."

Does this really mean that if I feed it much over 14V pk-pk above 250kHz the magic smoke comes out?  It almost sounds like advertising copy: "Turns into a brick at the press of a button in under four microseconds!"

Surely not?  Please tell me I have this badly wrong.  I know there are such things as 10x probes, but I am exactly the kind of bloke who forgets to switch the probe to 10x AND WHO CONTINUES TYPING WITHOUT REALISING CAPS LOCK IS ON.  When I inflicted this kind of thing unwittingly on my solid state CRT scope, it just sat there and grinned at me until I pulled my finger out.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on March 14, 2021, 11:02:58 pm
All scopes with a 1M||x pf input impedance have that kind of derating. And 50 Ohm scopes are something like 5Vp max. A 10:1/100:1 probe extends that range (see specs).

From both my experience and my interpretation, that derating starts at 250kHz and continues at 20dB/decade down to 5V RMS at about 20Mhz.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Dunckx on March 14, 2021, 11:17:54 pm
Gadzooks, I really am at the bottom of the learning curve!  I find it hard to believe that these new-fangled things will ever catch on...

Well thanks for that, forewarned is forearmed. :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 21, 2021, 07:36:26 am
RTB2004 history mode does not seem to trigger right for me.

On a single digital signal (WS2812) on logic input 0, trigger set to D0, TTL, History size is 40 with some megasamples, and I have 15 bursts of serial data, I get less then that in history most of the time.

Some segments even are not shown as triggered at the beginning of the burst, but in the middle.

Scope is in Normal mode.

When capturing the whole bursts in one go (timebase according), I can confirm I have always 15 bursts.

Fast capture mode or wassitcalled, does not help.

Strange.

When is firmware 2.4 coming ? ;-)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 22, 2021, 06:44:20 am
I was thinking that "Nx Single" lets me set the number of segments when in Single mode, but actually wanting more than one segment, no ?
In Normal mode, I thought, the history gets filled nonetheless. The gaps between bursts (packets) are rather wide, so I shouldn´t even need fast capture mode (2.5us blind time).

Guess I have to visit them in Mühldorfstraße, it´s not far ;-)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 22, 2021, 07:42:08 am
I´ll repeat it tonight and make a screen capture. I´ll try Auto mode instead, but thought it might not matter to have Normal mode.
I guess I´m doing somthing wrong, maby trigger level, that number of segments varies. Just haven´t found out yet.
Thanks für trying out.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 22, 2021, 07:26:07 pm
This segmented / history is seriously broken. I thought we talk about 2.5us delay only between re-arm when using fast mode ?
Firmware 2.3

I try to capture this waveform in segments. I can expect about 21 segments.
Whole data at 20 and 50 ms, it´s always like this, not more not less.
[attach=1]
[attach=2]

First try with history, still running shows this:
Three segments ? seriously ?
No fast segmentation.
One cannot scroll, because its not stopped.
[attach=3]

Now try with fast segmentation:
twelve segments, but look at the delay !
[attach=4]

Another try:
seventeen segments. What is this thing doing for 43ms on segment -7 ?
Missing my frames !
[attach=5]

It´s unusable.
I tried auto mode, which does of course not work at all, because it´s constantly filling history and loosing my data immediatly.
Then manual mode, see results above.
Also tried single with N=20, which shows exactly the same.

Also tried not sinx/x to no avail.

I think my unit is defective.

Or maby not, but disappointing nonetheless. It seems to only (!) work in single trigger and fast segmentation.
I mean this is bursts with 10ms distance, and it cannot write it to memory only in single and fast segmentation ?

Very poor performance R&S

More tests with Trigger to Aux Out show no more than 5ms / 200Hz whatever I configure.
I thought it´s the measurements, but no.
So basically R&S 50000 waveforms per second is 200.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on April 22, 2021, 08:23:32 pm



You should try putting memory (Record length) management in Auto mode...
I keep repeating that manually managing memory is pain in the ass..
It should be left for special purposes only.

If you set your scope to FIXED 6Msps and sample at 2.5GS/sec every capture will be fixed and forced to be how long?
2.4 ms.....

Set it to Auto and try again...
Let us know what happened.
Regards,
Sinisa
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 22, 2021, 08:49:53 pm
Ok, I made progress.
Something was wrong with the internal memory of the scope I guess.
I did a secure erase and times are now down to more reasonable values.
Have to do more tests.

Before I was stuck at 5ms/200Hz. I tried everything.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 22, 2021, 09:11:00 pm
Ok, I made progress.
Something was wrong with the internal memory of the scope I guess.
I did a secure erase and times are now down to more reasonable values.
Have to do more tests.

Before I was stuck at 5ms/200Hz. I tried everything.
Likely the memory length is now set to 'auto' instead of a (long) fixed length. If you need high capture rates then set the memory length to a small amount or auto.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 22, 2021, 09:35:19 pm
Boy this is implemented way too complicated.

I managed to capture now all segments. But you have to

- Have the record length in auto (ok, understood this, if you capture too much it takes too much time)
- Be in normal trigger mode (Why ?)
- Arm a single trigger
- Have the Nx set to larger or equal the number of expected segments.
- Have fast capture mode on (it does not work without even with my 10ms between segments)

Everything else will give you a couple hundred waveforms per second max.

Why is there the huge delay between segments ?
Basically they show in comercial that the history is always on and you can go back in time,
but with that update rate you will miss everything but very slow events.

Also, why not allow fast capture in normal mode ??
It only works in single !

Argggh.

P.S. I have set acquisition depth mostly to auto mode, see pictures where it show 2.5GS/s and 6MSamples.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 22, 2021, 11:06:05 pm
Boy this is implemented way too complicated.

I managed to capture now all segments. But you have to

- Have the record length in auto (ok, understood this, if you capture too much it takes too much time)
- Be in normal trigger mode (Why ?)
- Arm a single trigger
- Have the Nx set to larger or equal the number of expected segments.
- Have fast capture mode on (it does not work without even with my 10ms between segments)
This is basically how you setup a segmented recording on any oscilloscope. The difference between 'fast sequence' and 'normal sequence' mode is that in the latter the display is updated as well so you can see what is actually being captured instead of looking at a counter going up without any idea whether the data is useful or not. Then again, if your events come in fast you don't waste much time in case you need to re-capture so being able to see what is going on is less of an issue.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 23, 2021, 07:02:02 am
Peter thanks for your extensive tests.
I do not use the internal generator of the scope.

Also I think if Rigol can do fast capture in Normal trigger mode, so should R&S.
That was dumb, it´s the generator display, sorry.

I did not manage what you did in the second picture (RTB2004-PulseBurst-1-21-Sample.png), where there is 10ms delta and fast-capture off.
There, I get huge variations in trigger time. I think it might be if I have a second channel on, then off again,
which I did to measure something on the other input. I switched trigger and channel on and off, and
sometimes got more than 100ms trigger arm time on the counter (aux out is trigger).

What firmware version are you running ?

I´ll probably write R/S support to see if they have anything to say to the issues:
- When Auto-Trigger, a segmented single does not wait for trigger but automatically triggers every 500ms
- Huge variations in re-arm even if dot-mode and almost everything switched off.

Edit: Fair enough they write in the manual that fast segmentation only works for single trigger.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on April 23, 2021, 08:12:47 am
@Goaty

there are few things you don't seem to understand about how scope works. Any scope. And then you need to think about some of your statements and you will find them illogical.
New generation scopes are very sophisticated (both powerful and somewhat complicated) and takes time to get used to it.

If you allow me to explain:

Auto trigger mode is behaving EXACTLY as it should. It waits for trigger for some short time and then if there was no trigger event, it AUTO triggers without reason. It is equivalent of you pressing "force trigger" every few hundred milliseconds.  To wait for trigger unconditionally you use NORMAL mode.  (People get confused that AUTO means scope will magically discover appropriate trigger settings by itself. It doesn't. It simply takes blind capture every now and then. Purpose of that is that scope will show something on the screen even if you setup trigger wrong or there is no trigger event)
From RTB 2000 Manual:

"Auto" The instrument triggers repeatedly after a time interval if the trigger
conditions are not fulfilled. If a real trigger occurs, it takes precedence. This mode helps to see the waveform even before the trigger
is set. The waveform on the screen is not synchronized, and successive waveforms are not triggered at the same point of the waveform.

"Norm" The instrument acquires a waveform only if a trigger occurs, that is, if
all trigger conditions are fulfilled. If no trigger occurs, no waveform is
acquired and the last acquired waveform is displayed. If no waveform
was captured before, nothing is displayed.

I said on many occasions that it is unfortunate that what is called AUTO trigger should be called TIMEOUT trigger and there would be less confusion..

You should really read a manual from front to back, these scopes are sophisticated enough that simply playing with it is not enough.

Segmented mode (fast one) is always single burst. How else would it be?   You set it to capture 20 segments, and it does that and stops. Otherwise it wouldn't be 20 i you let it run forever. Also if you press SINGLE or RUN it is the same. It would capture next 20 trigger events (without screen updates) and then stop. On Keysight you can press SINGLE or RUN and it is the same.

When you use History mode (segmented with screen updates) retrigger time will be somewhat jittery. Reason is screen refresh, that happens on regular interval for screen, and it will make a scope "pause" a little while screen is being rendered. It takes time to take all that data from buffer, decimate it from megapoints to kilopixels and render it for screen. And those little "pauses" will happen at seemingly "random" intervals in correlation to your signal, because those two events are not correlated.
Because of that, there is "fast" segmented mode (one without screen updates) to make retrigger time and captures deterministic and as fast as possible.

And as Nico said, if you need retrigger time in msec, by the time you blink, you'll have hundreds of captured buffers already there waiting.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 23, 2021, 08:19:33 am
I did not manage what you did in the second picture (RTB2004-PulseBurst-1-21-Sample.png), where there is 10ms delta and fast-capture off.
There, I get huge variations in trigger time.

Maybe activated measurements are to blame? They also need time and probably slow down the trigger.

Peter
Ah no, I have disabled all and it did not change.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 23, 2021, 08:31:44 am
@Goaty
Auto trigger mode is behaving EXACTLY as it should. It waits for trigger for some short time and then if there was no trigger event, it AUTO triggers without reason. It is equivalent of you pressing "force trigger" every few hundred milliseconds.  To wait for trigger unconditionally you use NORMAL mode.  (People get confused that AUTO means scope will magically discover appropriate trigger settings by itself. It doesn't. It simply takes blind capture every now and then. Purpose of that is that scope will show something on the screen even if you setup trigger wrong or there is no trigger event)
From RTB 2000 Manual:

"Auto" The instrument triggers repeatedly after a time interval if the trigger
conditions are not fulfilled. If a real trigger occurs, it takes precedence. This mode helps to see the waveform even before the trigger
is set. The waveform on the screen is not synchronized, and successive waveforms are not triggered at the same point of the waveform.

"Norm" The instrument acquires a waveform only if a trigger occurs, that is, if
all trigger conditions are fulfilled. If no trigger occurs, no waveform is
acquired and the last acquired waveform is displayed. If no waveform
was captured before, nothing is displayed.

I said on many occasions that it is unfortunate that what is called AUTO trigger should be called TIMEOUT trigger and there would be less confusion..
Thank you for clarifying this. I was under the impression that in Auto, if there is no trigger, I still see the waveform on the screen (capture), but it is untriggered all the time (like freerunning).
Also I do not see the trigger LED, which led me to believe, that also the history must therefore be NOT filled.

@Goaty
Segmented mode (fast one) is always single burst. How else would it be?   You set it to capture 20 segments, and it does that and stops. Otherwise it wouldn't be 20 i you let it run forever. Also if you press SINGLE or RUN it is the same. It would capture next 20 trigger events (without screen updates) and then stop. On Keysight you can press SINGLE or RUN and it is the same.

When you use History mode (segmented with screen updates) retrigger time will be somewhat jittery. Reason is screen refresh, that happens on regular interval for screen, and it will make a scope "pause" a little while screen is being rendered. It takes time to take all that data from buffer, decimate it from megapoints to kilopixels and render it for screen. And those little "pauses" will happen at seemingly "random" intervals in correlation to your signal, because those two events are not correlated.
Because of that, there is "fast" segmented mode (one without screen updates) to make retrigger time and captures deterministic and as fast as possible.

And as Nico said, if you need retrigger time in msec, by the time you blink, you'll have hundreds of captured buffers already there waiting.
If I press SINGLE it captures what I set with Nx=..., then stops. If I press RUN, it does not stop for me, it runs continuously. Or did I misunderstand ?

I understand it will jitter because it´s probably not fully asynchronous, which it IMHO shuld be (acquisition and display processing),
but I was mislead by the "up to 50000wfms/s" which I have not been able to even closely reach.
It does not matter in most cases, but for trying to capture bursts with long pauses, one has to know the re-arm time, or use fast-capture. But then you have to know the Nx...

I guess I have a lot more reading and experimenting to do.
Thank you for taking the time to write !!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on April 23, 2021, 09:39:28 am

Thank you for clarifying this. I was under the impression that in Auto, if there is no trigger, I still see the waveform on the screen (capture), but it is untriggered all the time (like freerunning).
Also I do not see the trigger LED, which led me to believe, that also the history must therefore be NOT filled.

Yes, it is basically freeruning. Not exactly, it will wait for trigger event for a short time, and then give up and fire off capture just because....  ^-^ But basically freerunning.


If I press SINGLE it captures what I set with Nx=..., then stops. If I press RUN, it does not stop for me, it runs continuously. Or did I misunderstand ?

I understand it will jitter because it´s probably not fully asynchronous, which it IMHO shuld be (acquisition and display processing),
but I was mislead by the "up to 50000wfms/s" which I have not been able to even closely reach.
It does not matter in most cases, but for trying to capture bursts with long pauses, one has to know the re-arm time, or use fast-capture. But then you have to know the Nx...

I guess I have a lot more reading and experimenting to do.
Thank you for taking the time to write !!

The difference between SINGLE and RUN with segments is actually R&S unique feature (not a bug  ^-^).

With all other scopes you capture 20 segments and stop. Same as you get with SINGLE on R&S. But on R&S, if you press RUN, it will not stop after 20 segments, but it will keep acquiring circular buffer of LAST 20 segments. So at any time, you STOP, and in buffer you will have last 20 triggers before STOP.  It's kinda like counting forward and backward...

As far as WFM/sec that is most bogus thing in industry... Most of the scopes achieve those published numbers only in specific settings, and it is not really important.  Blind time, (retrigger time) is important and very few publish it at all, and those that do don't publish comprehensive tables of all possible combination. So it is up to user to characterize it if they need it to be exact.

You're welcome, not a problem, as long as I have some time...  ^-^
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 23, 2021, 09:56:09 am
I have tested again, this time with the Rigol DG4000 as signal source. Now the normal history mode works as well. Each of the 21 data packets is recorded. The Peak Detect mode is slower, one should also consider.
I will test again with the internal pattern generator.
Peter

Is it really possible that the delta time is always exactly the same to the last nanosecond ? This looks very strange to me.
(RTB2004-PulseBurst-1-21-Sample.png)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on April 23, 2021, 10:22:35 am
I have tested again, this time with the Rigol DG4000 as signal source. Now the normal history mode works as well. Each of the 21 data packets is recorded. The Peak Detect mode is slower, one should also consider.
I will test again with the internal pattern generator.
Peter

Is it really possible that the delta time is always exactly the same to the last nanosecond ? This looks very strange to me.
(RTB2004-PulseBurst-1-21-Sample.png)

Delta time is probably rounded up to sample rate at the time.
10,620224 ms is exactly 26,55055E6 cycles of 2,5GHz sampling clock, for instance..

But it is not all the same, there are 224, 217, 337 as last 3 decimal places..

And even that jitter is probably from AWG, not scope.
In Fast Sequence mode it should be very deterministic..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 23, 2021, 11:07:42 am
Because of the trigger re-arm uncertainty I´m getting a bit suspicious about what the scope software is showing me.
I rember the DS1054Z showing a trigger delay of 10.00000000456ps or so.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on April 23, 2021, 11:28:21 am
Because of the trigger re-arm uncertainty I´m getting a bit suspicious about what the scope software is showing me.
I rember the DS1054Z showing a trigger delay of 10.00000000456ps or so.

Well, your suspicions should go in other direction..  456 *10e-23 sec is a nonsensical precision....
Trigger rearm to ready time is separate form internal time base. Scope is showing exactly what time it was between triggers. It knows. It is simply not ready to get another sample at all times in exactly same interval. That is true for all scopes..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 23, 2021, 11:31:38 am
And I think I understood another thing now.

R&S have the Single button in Trigger, but it really is single acquisition, not single trigger.

On DS1054Z, I pressed Single, it was single trigger regardless whether before Auto or Manual was chosen.

Makes sense now, but is slightly different behaviour.

As you said, I really should study the manual more in depth.

Trigger rearm to ready time is separate form internal time base. Scope is showing exactly what time it was between triggers. It knows. It is simply not ready to get another sample at all times in exactly same interval. That is true for all scopes..
I know the scope knows, but that is not the point. The point is that I need to know the time it _will_ need in order to decide if I need Fast Segmentation or not.
If I have no idea, how long the time is before next trigger is possible, how can history be of any use ? Only and only with very long times between trigger (>100ms) or use Fast Segmentation.
Still not quite convinced this is a optimal implementation.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on April 23, 2021, 12:41:48 pm
And I think I understood another thing now.

R&S have the Single button in Trigger, but it really is single acquisition, not single trigger.

On DS1054Z, I pressed Single, it was single trigger regardless whether before Auto or Manual was chosen.

Makes sense now, but is slightly different behaviour.

As you said, I really should study the manual more in depth.

Trigger rearm to ready time is separate form internal time base. Scope is showing exactly what time it was between triggers. It knows. It is simply not ready to get another sample at all times in exactly same interval. That is true for all scopes..
I know the scope knows, but that is not the point. The point is that I need to know the time it _will_ need in order to decide if I need Fast Segmentation or not.
If I have no idea, how long the time is before next trigger is possible, how can history be of any use ? Only and only with very long times between trigger (>100ms) or use Fast Segmentation.
Still not quite convinced this is a optimal implementation.

I don't remember how DS1000Z does it, but most other scopes will wait in Single for trigger. On new Siglents you can press Single twice to force trigger (they are missing Force Trigger button).

History is just that, history of previous triggers, as they where, with no determinism. If you need deterministic retrigger time, you need to use Fast mode. That is just it..

RTB 2000 is not a scope that is fastest in that regard. It has other pluses though. There will always be compromises.. Even with 100k USD scopes...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 23, 2021, 02:28:16 pm
There is another thing I´ve noticed:
When I have a 3MHz squarewave and switch from 20ns/div to 40ns/div,
after a second or so, the waveform update rate goes up to more than 50000 waveforms/s,
but gets smoothed and one does not see it jiggle around anymore.

First with 20ns does show noise on squarewave.
Here waveform update is slow (150Hz)
[attach=1]

Second at 40ns/div shortly shows noise as before, but then a second or so it´s gone.
Update rate shows 56000 on external counter.
[attach=2]
[attach=3]

All very fishy
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 23, 2021, 04:20:32 pm
Ah, my fault, 5Mhz it is.

I swear I had 0,150kHz on the PM6622 counter.
Just tried it again and now cannot reproduce.

I´ll try again after the weekend.

Thank you PeDre and 2N3055 for your patience !
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 28, 2021, 09:02:19 am
Has anyone ever got a reply or solution for the strangely low waveform update rates as described in this post ?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg1405398/#msg1405398 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg1405398/#msg1405398)

I´m seeing the same problem.
The roughly expected update rate in the 20us to 200us/div range - about 2kHz to 200Hz - is not reached.

I love the scope, but I need to find out what I´m doing wrong.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 28, 2021, 12:58:35 pm
Excellent idea with the pulses, so one can verify it did not miss one. Thank you very much for trying that out.
As I said, I have not been able to achieve this with 10ms distance at 200us/div.

Probably I´ll contact R&S for a repair, because I see no other reason why it is not working for me.

Ah, can you maby post the hardware revision of the mainboard of yours. Maby there´s a change.
My RTB2004 was purchased in 12/2020.

Oh, and the pulses are generated from the internal generator ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 28, 2021, 02:35:46 pm
For me, it´s currently the main use of the scope decoding serial data, where segmentation is really useful.
It worked perfectly with the Rigol 1054Z, only it could not decode the data (only the data when not segmenting).
So I was happy to find the R&S can decode the history (if enabled before capture, not afterwards).
But now I´m having trouble with the missing triggers.
Maby I´ll try the Siglent some time and sell the R&S.


Device Information is unter Setup and has hardware information as well.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 28, 2021, 08:06:33 pm
Man I really appreciate the help you provide because this scope is so full of bugs...

Just tried to restore the squarewave for the probe cal after arbitrary. Switch to square, set 10kHz, but it does not reset the period of 120ms. Gawd.


Also, it does never ever record the 21 pulse sequences, when I do a single run of the pattern gen.

Tried on ch1 instead of ch4, no difference.
[attach=2]

Set pat gen to 1x
[attach=1]
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 29, 2021, 07:57:54 am
I have observed the trigger out with another oscilloscope and I have noticed errors.
Immediately after starting a recording there are gaps in the trigger. Only after a short time is triggered on each packet. Of course this can become a problem.

This is exactly my problem. I tried a full factory reset, re-flashed the 2.300 firmware and did a full self-calibration, but that does not change anything.
I guess the Software and FPGA design in there is not fully asynchrounous and introduces some blockage when first triggers hit in Norm-Mode.
I really hope there´s room for improvment.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on April 29, 2021, 05:15:00 pm
Excellent test, thank you again PeDre.
Yes, your arguments are correct. I was just stumbling upon just this problem on basically first measurements I was doing,
so you may forgive me being a bit annoyed first.

I have made a ticket with R&S, but I doubt there will be a solution or update anytime soon (or ever).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on June 04, 2021, 09:02:43 pm
With the Logic Analyzer option (RTB-B1), does anyone know how the digital channels factor in with the memory depth? The RTB2000 datasheet found here (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2229436.pdf) says the following about memory depth in general:

Quote
10 Msample memory depth is available on each channel if all channels are active. When interleaved, 20 Msample are available.

I was not actually aware that the 10Msample would be per channel, but it now also makes sense why it's 20Msamples when interleaved: You get the memory of two channels for the interleaved channel.

But what does that mean for the digital channels? I would be surprised if it's also 10 Msamples per each of the digital channels, for 16 channels that would be a lot of unused memory otherwise, or does it? (Although not that much more: Assuming that the scope (hopefully) only saves a bit per sample of a digital channel, all channels together would use 16 bits per sample, which is just 1.6 times the cost of a 10 bit analog channel.)

Is it dependent of how many analog channels are enabled, i.e. you get to use memory that would otherwise be used by the other analog channels? If so, what happens if all analog channels are enabled (or two are enabled interleaved)? Finally, is there potentially also some compression (e.g. long strings of zeroes or ones are saved in an efficient manner)?

EDIT: The datasheet reminds me that with the segmented memory option (that I have), the total sample memory is 160 Msamples, albeit still with 10 Msamples per capture (i.e. segment). I guess this means it would not be too surprising if extra memory for 10 million 16bit samples is available, at the cost of fewer segments maybe, but the datasheet seems to make no mention either way of that. Maybe someone with RTB-B1 can experiment?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on June 05, 2021, 08:45:50 pm
That's great, thanks Peter. So essentially, it's always 10 Msamples, unless interleaving can be applied, then it's 20 Msamples.

The only thing I'm missing now is what happens when 1+2+3+4 and both pods are enabled. Or is that not possible at all? Though the list also does not have 1+2+3+4 by itself, so it could just be an omission.

But it seems like I'll have at least 10 Msamples in most situations that matter for me already, so I ordered my RTB-B1.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on June 06, 2021, 12:16:56 am
I now also found this "fact sheet": https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/Option_sheet_-_RTx-B1_mixed_signal_analysis_v1.10.pdf

It says there is "no consumption of analog channels", and that the memory depth is "10 Msample". This contradicts the 20 Msamples table entries for when only analog channels 1 or 1+3 are active (probably just understating the capabilities), but it does also further suggest that all 4 analog channels can be enabled with any number of digital channels, and that there will always be at least 10 Msamples for all of those. On some signals, I might be able to reach up to 160 Msamples total with the proper triggers and fast segmentation.

There is also no indication of any compression scheme that would allow longer capture of sparse signals, like e.g. Saleae logic analyzers tend to have (those are just streaming to a computer, so it's pretty much up to the computer to store it however it sees fit). So if the signal is really sparse, you might waste a lot of capture memory, as I don't think variable segment lengths are a thing either?

Well, once the probes arrive, I will just try it out and set the record straight once and for all...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on June 06, 2021, 12:35:31 am
MSOs don't have compression like most logic analysers. The reason is that compression won't work for analog signals AND you will need extra memory for timestamps. Compression doesn't fit in the memory model of a DSO.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on June 06, 2021, 12:48:54 am
I don’t think it’s impossible (or extremely hard) to implement for the digital channels only in an FPGA, without waste of memory even. You’d capture non-sparse by default, but once the number of running zeros or ones exceeds the length of two timestamp plus a sentinel value, you instead[1] emit that sentinel value to indicate that sparse capture is happening now, followed by the current timestamp, and then a second timestamp once the value changes again.

That seems like a simple enough state machine. But it’s also more to handle in software and testing, including wrt history mode, data export and so on. So I think it’s probably those second order implementation costs that made R&S not implement it, not concerns about feasibility and memory usage.

EDIT: But I made a lot of assumptions about FPGAs being in the right path here, and how much they do. If ASICs are doing the capture instead, or there are ASICs which require certain memory layouts, then they would need to support that, too.

[1] For a simpler implementation, don't buffer at all before emitting but just switch to sparse mode at some more arbitrary run length. While you can get unlucky and use more memory with that alternative scheme, you'll still save memory for signals that are "sparse enough".
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on June 06, 2021, 01:02:59 am
I don’t think it’s impossible (or extremely hard) to implement for the digital channels only in an FPGA, without waste of memory even. You’d capture non-sparse by default, but once the number of running zeros or ones exceeds the length of two timestamp plus a sentinel value, you instead[1] emit that sentinel value to indicate that sparse capture is happening now, followed by the current timestamp, and then a second timestamp once the value changes again.
Capturing the data is 1% of the complexity of a modern DSO. There is so much else at play that supporting compression will make the system as a whole extremely complex.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on June 06, 2021, 01:07:38 am
That's what I said: It's not the extra memory for timestamps, or that it would not apply to analog signals, but the implementation cost of supporting that scheme downstream of the capture. I think it's debatable how complex the system really would get if you set your mind to design it with compression for digital channels from the start, but I'm not surprised nor terribly disappointed that DSOs usually don't do it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on June 07, 2021, 03:53:37 am
I now also found this "fact sheet": https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/Option_sheet_-_RTx-B1_mixed_signal_analysis_v1.10.pdf

It says there is "no consumption of analog channels", and that the memory depth is "10 Msample". This contradicts the 20 Msamples table entries for when only analog channels 1 or 1+3 are active (probably just understating the capabilities), but it does also further suggest that all 4 analog channels can be enabled with any number of digital channels, and that there will always be at least 10 Msamples for all of those. On some signals, I might be able to reach up to 160 Msamples total with the proper triggers and fast segmentation.


Hello,

I believe that in the document is a error.
Memory depth (one logic probe) 10 Msample
is perhaps wrong. It should be 20MS.

Furthermore I believe that R&S dont't exhaust in RTB, RTM and RTA all the potential of the hardware.

Sometimes high resolution is not possible.

Best regards
egonotto

 


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kcbrown on August 03, 2021, 04:35:04 am
MSOs don't have compression like most logic analysers. The reason is that compression won't work for analog signals AND you will need extra memory for timestamps. Compression doesn't fit in the memory model of a DSO.

Well, it would if it were fast enough.  But that's the problem: it has to be fast enough to keep up with the sampling rate (end to end, for anything that otherwise already is able to keep up with that).  And memory is cheap enough that it's just not worth it.  By the time you've spent the money to get yourself enough additional processing power, you've probably more than paid for enough additional memory to negate the advantages.   Not to mention that it makes the amount of data you can safely store unpredictable, since data compressibility varies with things like the randomness of the data.

And you'd have to decompress for any operation you might want to perform against the capture.  Again, you could make up for that with sufficient additional CPU horsepower, but there's not much point to it if you can just add RAM for roughly the same cost (less cost in the end, I'd wager, since there'd be less in the way of development costs to add RAM).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: analogRF on August 11, 2021, 01:55:14 am
I recently bought a RTB2004 300MHz and I truly love this thing  :-+ :D. Hands down "the" best user experience among the many scopes that I have had. The dynamic range of this thing in High Res mode is unbeatable I guess with any other scope in this range/class and it shows specially in FFT app.
However (that doesn't sound good! ;)) today I discovered something odd. The scope emits bursts of 213kHz pulses that you can easily catch with a simple small antenna on an spectrum analyzer and also on the scope itself.
If I dont attach anything to the ports, there is absolutely nothing on channels down to 1mV/div, Very clean and low noise (better than my Keysight 3000A as expected). But as soon as I connect a small 20-30cm antenna to the scope, I can easily catch the bursts of pulses emitting from the LCD display even at 50mV/div (see the pictures). I can also catch them on my Keysight 3000A with a magnetic loop and also on SA.

I have done some tests and I know for sure the pulses are coming from the LCD display. In the pictures you also see that when I turn the antenna away from screen they become much smaller
I also noticed that if I put my finger somewhere on the screen, the pulse train becomes continuous instead of bursts.

I dont think this is a defect in my scope. I was hoping someone else could experiment and see if this is a general issue.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: analogRF on August 11, 2021, 02:00:43 am
the bursts are about 5msec long but every now and then there is a very long one (see the picture in the previous post)

I wonder how this could pass EMC/EMI compliance tests?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: analogRF on August 11, 2021, 02:25:27 am
emitted pulse bursts from RTB2004 as captured by my Agilent 3034A
it seems there are three different timings for the bursts.

Just to be sure, as soon as I turn the RTB off everything goes quiet.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on August 11, 2021, 06:53:01 am
Well, it is capacitive touch screen..
Nobody liked resistive ones... Now we have a electric field generator..

But I doubt that is a biggest problem with all the led lights and switchers and WiFi and GSM signal around the lab.

It should be mostly near field.  EMC is being measured from the distance..

But I agree it seems too much. On my touch screen scopes, i have to be at 5mV/DIV to detect something with largest near field probe from TekBox.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: analogRF on August 11, 2021, 10:31:22 am
Well, it is capacitive touch screen..
Nobody liked resistive ones... Now we have a electric field generator..

But I doubt that is a biggest problem with all the led lights and switchers and WiFi and GSM signal around the lab.

It should be mostly near field.  EMC is being measured from the distance..

But I agree it seems too much. On my touch screen scopes, i have to be at 5mV/DIV to detect something with largest near field probe from TekBox.

I agree with the normal EMI pollution around the lab but until today I dont remember picking up
anything as strong as this on my "oscilloscopes" in the lab. On my spectrum analyzers, sure, and they are very weak, but on my scopes, not really, just some elevated noise at 1mv/div-5mv/div. The bigger issue is that it is fairly low frequency and with very strong harmonics up to about 2-3MHz
(I didnt post a picture of the FFT screen)

yes, it is the capacitive touch that is responsible for this and I actually noticed that I can only strongly pick it up by a wire antenna which dominantly reacts to the electric field. However, with a loop antenna, I can only pick up a very weak signal. On the other hand, I cannot detect absolutely nothing when I do the same test with my tablet or phone.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on August 11, 2021, 01:46:50 pm
What's odd is the RTB doesn't turn off the touch screen when you press the "touch lock" button. The KS MSOX touchscreen miodels do disable the scanning ( and hence any noise) when the touchscreen is disabled
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: analogRF on August 11, 2021, 01:55:24 pm
What's odd is the RTB doesn't turn off the touch screen when you press the "touch lock" button. The KS MSOX touchscreen miodels do disable the scanning ( and hence any noise) when the touchscreen is disabled

yes, turning off the TS does not affect the pulse bursts at all even though the touchscreen does not work anymore. It;s just a software thing  :(
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: analogRF on August 11, 2021, 02:21:47 pm
What's odd is the RTB doesn't turn off the touch screen when you press the "touch lock" button. The KS MSOX touchscreen miodels do disable the scanning ( and hence any noise) when the touchscreen is disabled

Mike, does the RTM3000 behave the same way?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on August 11, 2021, 02:51:46 pm
What's odd is the RTB doesn't turn off the touch screen when you press the "touch lock" button. The KS MSOX touchscreen miodels do disable the scanning ( and hence any noise) when the touchscreen is disabled

Mike, does the RTM3000 behave the same way?
I tested on the RTM - I assume the RTB is the same
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: analogRF on August 11, 2021, 10:57:58 pm
I just checked with the touchscreen on my Tek DPO7254 and I cannot detect anything at all with the same setup.
I am not too familiar with touchscreens, is it because the DPO perhaps uses resistive touchscreen?
that scope is big and loud but I can hardly detect any EMI around it. at least not with a scope, maybe with a SA....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on August 15, 2021, 08:19:03 pm
Does anyone know what the RTB-B1 (mixed signal option, includes the logic probes) license key is actually for?

I received my RTB-B1 logic probes a while ago and just plugged them into my RTB2004, which I already upgraded with the RTB-PK1 package that includes pretty much all non-bandwidth software options. Despite RTB-B1 not being part of RTB-PK1, the scope accepted the logic probes immediately and I was able to use the digital channels.

I didn't see the license keys envelope, so I assumed usage of the mixed signal option is just tied to the hardware (which seemed sensible).

Now, months later when getting rid of the shipping material, I discovered that the envelope with the key was actually in there, I just had missed it before. So I typed the license key into my RTB2004, which added the mixed signal option to the list of options and... I don't know what else changed. The logic channels worked before, and still work of course.

Am I missing something, or is it useless, as long as you have the probe hardware itself? The scope is not hacked or anything, it's just a regular RTB2004 with RTB-PK1, and no bandwidth upgrades.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on October 07, 2021, 08:26:17 pm
Funny automatic google translate for Rohde & Schwarz (attached pic).  :D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on October 18, 2021, 11:15:28 pm
[attach=1]A short comparison of channel noise, maybe not quite correct, but if you have some suggestions...
Some constraints:
2 mv because Rigol cannot go under this value without BW filter(automatic)
2 ns because Keysight cannot go more.
Also touch screen noise of RTB2002 compared with Rigol's touch screen noise.
For Hydron: Now I have attached 2 more pics that include Std. Dev values. For Keysight it was std. dev from the beginning, because it was not capable to correctly measure RMS value(no edges).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on October 19, 2021, 08:30:16 am
Maybe measure std-dev rather than RMS if you're looking at noise - RMS will include the DC offset component too!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on October 19, 2021, 10:03:33 am
(Attachment Link) A short comparison of channel noise, maybe not quite correct, but if you have some suggestions...
Some constraints:
2 mv because Rigol cannot go under this value without BW filter(automatic)
2 ns because Keysight cannot go more.
Also touch screen noise of RTB2002 compared with Rigol's touch screen noise.
For Hydron: Now I have attached 2 more pics that include Std. Dev values. For Keysight it was std. dev from the beginning, because it was not capable to correctly measure RMS value(no edges).

Few suggestions:

Always use same timebase, timebase will influence frequency content of the noise, and noise is not same for all frequencies. 2ns/div is too short, I would measure at 1ms/div, that would grab most of the spectrum and filter out 1/f noise..

Also, you need (like Hydron well said) to measure Stdev (or AC RMS in Keysight talk) to filter out DC component from RMS measurements.

I suggest allways measuring Mean (DC average, DC component, offset in this case), RMS (full), AC RMS (Stdev, only AC component), and P-P.
That way you have quick sanity check, because all those numbers must cross check..

When in doubt, you can always compare P-P as quick check for order of magnitude comparisons.

Also, always compare with same bandwidth settings, and same vertical sensitivity settings.

Measure at several vertical sensitivity settings, and pay attention how S/N ratio changes and some scopes are better at some settings than others that might be better at some other settings.

Make a table ( on paper or Excel ) and write down all measurements. Than you can really compare.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on October 19, 2021, 10:13:54 am
Thing to be mentioned: my post was not intended to be an in depth comparison, but just a very quick view of how those three scopes show their noise at first glance. For a more detailed measure of SNR I will need an anechoic room, and different signals at different frequency in various scenarios, as 2N3055 say.
I will leave this to the engineers.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on October 19, 2021, 11:32:57 am
Thing to be mentioned: my post was not intended to be an in depth comparison, but just a very quick view of how those three scopes show their noise at first glance. For a more detailed measure of SNR I will need an anechoic room, and different signals at different frequency in various scenarios, as 2N3055 say.
I will leave this to the engineers.

No, it wasn't a critique.. just simple pointers as to how you can get more useful data and comparison by simple method.

You don't need anything special, maybe a BNC short plug or BNC 50 Ohm terminator to "quiet down" inputs from something getting induced directly.

Doing this is not needed for average user, but it might prove interesting and useful, as a tool to get to know your instrument better, to get to know it's "sweeet" spots etc.
Just doing quick (but systematic) note of noise floor at different sensitivities might be useful to know, for instance, so I can (or cannot) measure ripple on this PSU without preamp.



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: marcopolo on November 20, 2021, 09:04:47 am
Does anyone know what the RTB-B1 (mixed signal option, includes the logic probes) license key is actually for?

I received my RTB-B1 logic probes a while ago and just plugged them into my RTB2004, which I already upgraded with the RTB-PK1 package that includes pretty much all non-bandwidth software options. Despite RTB-B1 not being part of RTB-PK1, the scope accepted the logic probes immediately and I was able to use the digital channels.

I think the answer is here:

While the MSO cable is not included, moving forward, we'll be enabling MSO in all our scopes - you will still need to purchase the probe (same cost), but now they can be moved between scopes.  Not that big of a change for an individual user, but for a teaching lab it will be a huge improvement (they can buy say five MSO cables, keep them in a drawer and then hand them out to a bench as needed). 

I would like to make probes for myself.

Could you look at how the detection of the probes is done?
- 2 pins connected together
- 1 resistor between 2 pins
- Another thing ...

I hope there are no active components in it.

Thanks,
Marc
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on November 20, 2021, 09:12:44 am
It contains a Zylog MCU. It is the "key" It is not fools  in Rohde&Shwarz :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 21, 2021, 10:15:30 am
Hello RTB users...

I know this is a smaller thing. Still curious. I recently sent my RTB2004 back for repair because the screen was showing a strange pattern (glue of the digitizer getting loose?). Instead of repairing, R&S sent me back a replacement unit. Might be new, but has an unusual sticker on top of it. The replacement has a higher serial number:

Original device: Material 1333.1005K04 S/N: 111@@@
Replacement device: Material 1333.1005K04 S/N: 201@@@

The thing is, on the replacement scope, the lights on the front panel controls, which change into different colours depending on the channel selected, now look quite horrible. They are not evenly coloured, as before, but have darker and lighter areas and show different colour tints. Also, the new unit has a rather audible fan noise, while the old was dead silent.

Anyone knows whether there were different series over time, either the above (and perhaps other) differences?

(I already read in a threat that there are differences across RTB noise, not sure I heard about front panel lights or other differences.)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on November 21, 2021, 10:23:00 am
Can you take a picture with the panel lights?
Did you try to adjust the intensity of the LED's? Setup-Display-Intensities-LED Brightness.
In which country is assembled?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 21, 2021, 11:50:01 am
Thanks, skander36

Quote
Can you take a picture with the panel lights?

To be honest, it's not so easy to take a picture that well represents how you see it in real. Anyway, the two below pics give a bit of an impression. In the one with channel 1 (yellow) selected, the upper dial has greenish tints in it. The lower dial tends to the orange/red colour.

Quote
Did you try to adjust the intensity of the LED's? Setup-Display-Intensities-LED Brightness.

Yes, they can be adjusted via the menu you mentioned from 20% to 100%. But the issue is the same at every brightness level.

Quote
In which country is assembled?

Romania, according to the sticker on the back of the unit.

[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on November 21, 2021, 12:07:39 pm
It is possible R&S used different LEDs which have a narrower angle. Not surprising given the component shortages. Recently I had to buy bog standard LEDs from the only distributor that had a few left.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on November 21, 2021, 01:19:34 pm
Mine is also assembled in Romania, and it seem to look the same.
Buttons looks ok, only glow rings for vertical adjust buttons seem not too uniform.
I don't know is from the quality of LED's, maybe the rubber material is not the same quality as before? 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 27, 2021, 08:32:25 pm
Dear skander36,

Thanks for the reply. Judging by your photos, your illumination has the same issue as mine. Especially when 'protocol' mode is activated, the dial colours are rather weird and ugly, for both the rotary dials and for the trigger button when the serial trigger function is selected...

Guess we have to live with it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on November 29, 2021, 09:07:54 am
Mine has same apperance of color rings, but hey, I´m looking at the screen, not the knobs  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: marcopolo on November 29, 2021, 09:15:20 am
Me too  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on December 02, 2021, 04:52:31 pm
Hi Everyone,

Quick update - a new firmware release for the RTB2000, RTM3000 and RTA4000 will be out shortly. 

RTB2000 FW V2.4
New Functions

Modifications

RTM3000/RTA4000 FW V1.7
New Functions

Modifications

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on December 02, 2021, 08:41:23 pm
Awesome!
Seem to be a consistent update!
Thanks for the news!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on December 02, 2021, 08:51:29 pm
Certainly looks like a worthwhile update! Even small thinks like 6 measurements up from 4 are very handy on a day by day basis… Looking forward to test this out!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on December 02, 2021, 09:10:34 pm
Great to hear there´s still some improvement given to users (for free).
I only wish there was a performance update for the trigger rate.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg1405398/#msg1405398 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg1405398/#msg1405398))
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on December 03, 2021, 08:23:54 am
I look forward to trying this one, seems like a bunch of useful improvements, and the RTA4004 we got at work will be nice to have the FFT speed increase on too.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Domitronic on December 03, 2021, 05:59:37 pm

Modifications
  • Increasing of FFT waveform update rate up to factor ten with low start frequencies and activated 'Automatic RBW'
  • Removed extra treatment of ADC clipping values in waveform arithmetic average (Clipping values are now processed as normal ADC values and not emphasized in waveform)
  • Option RTB-B6: Minimum difference between start and stop sweep frequency limited to 3Hz.


The FFT update rate is interesting. I bought the RTB2004 earlier this year and returned it. One of the reasons was the unusable FFT for low frequency. Feedback from R&S at that time was that it really is not very fast and this will not change in the future. And that i should not have high expectations in this class. Recommendation was to use RTE instead if FFT performance matters. Now i'm using Siglent.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on December 05, 2021, 07:56:55 am
I came across an oddity in the digital voltmeter (DMM) in the RTB. Was investigating a trace showing a power rail with a ripple / oscillation problem and thought to use the DMM to show the DC value of the rail, by selecting DC mode in the DMM. But it didn’t show the DC value.

Then I realized the channel I was using was AC coupled. And that the channel AC coupling is probably in the analogue domain, before the ADC. (For good reasons; this way one can use the sensitive range to study ripple etc.). And that the DMM uses the digital signal coming out of the ADC, as confirmed in Section 8.4.

So I find it confusing that the DMM allows the user to select DC measurements even if is not able to do so because the selected channel is AC coupled. I’d suggest a (small) firmware change that would disable (grey out) the DC mode of the DMM if the channel is AC coupled.

(PS just did a quick test and this is exactly what my Keysight DSOX120G does: grey out the DMM DC options when the selected channel is AC coupled. If the DMM is already at DC and the user afterwards changes the channel coupling from DC to AC, then the DMM is automatically changed to AC mode.) 

(Even beter would be a DMM that would be able to measure DC in such a case, but I suspect this would require significant* hardware changes.. )
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on December 05, 2021, 07:15:36 pm
One of the reasons was the unusable FFT for low frequency.

I had that, too, even made the detailed analysis above of how it seems the FFT was implemented in software and why that's not ideal in this case. But it wasn't enough to spoil the scope for me, and now I'm glad I kept it...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MikeP on December 06, 2021, 07:12:37 pm


Modifications
  • Increasing of FFT waveform update rate up to factor ten with low start frequencies...
Friends, we'll get a great gift.

 I want to thank the R&S Team and Rich  ;).  Many thanks![/list]
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on December 07, 2021, 10:39:01 am
I noted that the new FW is now available from the R&S website.

Installation went very smooth, taking considerably less than a minute I think. The attached screenshot shows one of the changes, namely the 6 measurement positions (up from 4).

Happy to see new, significant firmware updates being made available, thanks!



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 07, 2021, 01:15:41 pm
Thanks Rich and R&S!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on December 08, 2021, 09:34:32 am
Update worked fast and flawless. (RTB2004-COM4)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on December 09, 2021, 01:11:33 am
I didn't get to try it out yet, does anyone know what the scope is doing for low frequencies in FFT now?

Last time I posited that the reason it was so slow, is that the scope is always filling 128k points for FFT, even if the actual window size is much, much smaller. And of course filling 128k points is very slow for low frequencies (think e.g. 48kHz sampling in an audio example: ~2.6 seconds).

Does it now only fill the window? (At the expense of not being able to move the window around after capture, which is totally the better tradeoff in this case.)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Joel_l on December 09, 2021, 02:17:23 pm
Same for me RTB2004-COM4, no issues, no options disappeared.

Update worked fast and flawless. (RTB2004-COM4)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tv84 on December 11, 2021, 11:01:07 am
I tried to update the firmware via the network connection using the SCPI commands ':DIAG:UPD:...'. Thereby I came across a peculiarity. With the command ':DIAG:UPD:TRAN:DATA offset,checksum,blockdata', the CRC-16-CCITT checksum is calculated in a wrong variant.

There is a description here:
http://srecord.sourceforge.net/crc16-ccitt.html (http://srecord.sourceforge.net/crc16-ccitt.html)

It only works with the 'Bad_CRC' variant.

Peter,

That is not totally correct.

What they use is the common "CRC-16/IBM-3740", also widely known as "CRC-16/CCITT-FALSE". See here (https://reveng.sourceforge.io/crc-catalogue/all.htm).

I find the "CRC-16/AUG-CCITT", that you were expecting, more rare than the previous one. As such, I wouldn't call the other the "Bad_CRC" variant.

Even the author of your article ends up with no full certainty of what is truly the correct CCITT way.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on December 11, 2021, 03:13:18 pm
I tried the FFT for 0 to 100khz and it seems pretty fast with auto RBW. But I don't use that usually, so not an expert.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on December 12, 2021, 09:56:20 pm
Well done R&S !
Also math functions for tracking waveform parameters.
Thank you!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on December 21, 2021, 08:16:48 pm
This is the first time I've actually looked at the "Demos" (since the release notes mentioned them for the tracking math functions).

They're actually pretty neat demos using the built in pattern or function generators. The tracking math functions are fun, you essentially have a little amplitude/phase/frequency demodulator. 😄
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on December 28, 2021, 07:37:36 am
Dear all,

I wanted to observe some delays between pulses on different channels using the "Delay" measurement of the RTB2004.

According to the user manual (p128), there is a "Delay Setup" submenu with quite a few parameters, plus a "display results" switch (first photo).
However, on my own device, I only get to see the slope parameters, nothing more (second photo).
(Same thing for the "Delay to Trigger" measurement added in FW2.40, also there I see fewer options than the user manual shows).

Am I overlooking something? Perhaps someone can see what he/she sees in this menu?

Thanks!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Jeroen3 on December 28, 2021, 07:58:51 am
Measure -> Type: Delay does have the setup button.
Your screenshots are also not in the manual anymore it seems, you only have the edge buttons. Can't find anything else.

FW: 2.3
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on December 28, 2021, 08:34:02 am
Thanks Jeroen3. You are right, it depends on the FW version. The additional settings seem to have disappeared with the new 2.40 firmware  :-X

Too bad, one usually expects new FW may add functionality, but not remove.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on December 29, 2021, 12:18:29 pm
PreDre, thanks for checking.

I noted more discrepancies between documentation and instrument in this measurement section. For instance, the manual for V2.300 discusses the "delay to trigger" measurement, but the "Release Notes Firmware Version 02.400" mention that this specific measurement was only added with FR2.400.

I wonder if there is just some sloppiness across the different documents/software for the RTB2000, or whether the manual accidentally talked of features only present in the RTM3000 (where the latest manual does list these additional delay settings) or the RTA4000, which seem to run rather similar software. 

(This happened before. For instance, my NGE103B manual talks of a touch screen and mouse control, in a text that is clearly accidentally copied from other more expensive power suppliers R&S makes.)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on December 30, 2021, 09:54:52 pm
Yes, AC coupling capacitor comes first. This is not the universal way of doing it, but neither is it an unusual design - good to see it's highlighted in the manual.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on December 30, 2021, 09:59:31 pm
Oh, huh, good to know. Thankfully the abs max on the channel inputs is 400V peak; was worried for a second there.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on December 31, 2021, 10:44:30 am
It's also worth noting that this rule only applies to some probes, i.e. those with only a series resistor, not ones with a full internal divider present.

Basically if the probe impedance (in megohms) is equal to the attenuation ratio then it can pass on the full DC voltage when the scope is in AC mode, e.g. most 10X probes have a 9M input resistor, which gives a 10M input impedance when used in series with the scope's 1M input.

if the input impedance is less than this value (e.g. 100M for the 1000x attenuation P6015: https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/P6015) then it will have an internal divider resistor and AC coupling will unlikely be an issue.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on January 15, 2022, 01:47:36 pm
 Elsewhere (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/functional-comparison-of-rs-rtb2000-siglent-sds2000x-and-keysight-dsox1000/) on this forum, we are having a discussion comparing the RTB to two other oscilloscopes, and creating an extensive  functional overview document (https://github.com/RudisElectronicsLab/RTB_SDS_DSOX_review) (currently 32 pages) including all functionalities of the RTB.

Would be happy to receive additions, feedback, corrections, etc. And I hope the document is useful for people to explore further their instrument!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSTHQUENuAc2UwmrlHkVGKw (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSTHQUENuAc2UwmrlHkVGKw)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Jeroen3 on January 17, 2022, 11:57:36 am
Anyone have the problem the scope triggers on nothing? Even with selected trigger channel input shorted?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on January 17, 2022, 12:48:16 pm
RTB2k ? Which Trigger mode ? Which trigger level ? Have not had any issues so far. With normal trigger and level to zero it´s triggering at some point, sure.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on January 17, 2022, 08:43:52 pm
Or did you try to use Single trigger mode while not in Normal mode (the default is Auto, i.e. it goes freerunning if no trigger happened recently)? Somewhat counterintuitively, if you are not in Normal mode, Single mode just triggers immediately regardless of the trigger condition... essentially still "freerunning" but stopping immediately.

It kind of makes sense logically[1], but still seems weird because I'm not sure there could be any use for that. Maybe something convoluted with Nx Single trigger mode and the history? Or if you only want to manually trigger (Force Trigger button) anyway?

In any case, since I noticed that once, I just make sure the scope is in Normal mode when using Single mode.

[1] Kind of. Or not, because freerunning does not really mean "triggered", the Trigger LED for example also stays dark.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Jeroen3 on January 18, 2022, 08:56:13 am
Normal does it. Strange choices they made.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nikifena on January 26, 2022, 10:11:48 am
A new RTB2002 user here.

After many years of using hmo1202 oscilloscope, which is still a great device, I decided and spent some money for RTB2002 scope.
One feature is missing: it's the component tester from the small brother. Is it possible to integrate it into the RTB scope?

Thanks
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on January 26, 2022, 10:33:56 am
@Nikifena

Congratulations with your new scope.

Quote
One feature is missing: it's the component tester from the small brother. Is it possible to integrate it into the RTB scope?

I think this was a feature that comes all the way back from the HAMEG HM203 series in the 1980s, and in fact I always liked this feature a lot!

As you might know, HAMEG was acquired in 2005 by R&S, who used both brand names on some devices for a while, before phasing out the HAMEG name. But some functions of HAMEG instruments could still be recognized in much later instruments, including this component tester.

But I'm afraid it is not in the current R&S oscilloscopes like the RTB series anymore. You may work something out with a function generator (build-in, if your version has one, or external) and the XY mode on the RTB. The HM1202 manual (p. 37) actually gives quite some hints how to do that -) But of course its not the nice build-in feature anymore.

GL

. But its not going to be the ready-made feature   

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: voltsandjolts on January 26, 2022, 11:36:17 am
One resistor plus a sinusoid from the function gen and x-y mode...and your done!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwo3pEH7hUE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwo3pEH7hUE)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on January 26, 2022, 02:20:10 pm
Quote
One resistor plus a sinusoid from the function gen and x-y mode...and your done!

 ;) that's precisely the hint I referred to in the previous post (which was to be found in the HM1202 manual, p. 37)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on February 06, 2022, 08:35:33 pm
it always worked this way.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: PeterKlop on February 07, 2022, 07:28:32 pm
Hameg did build this into some of their scopes, but they also had a standalone box that could connect to any scope in order to add this functionality. That was called the HZ65. Sometimes you can find one on ebay and such.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on February 08, 2022, 07:25:36 am
Quote
I noticed that when saving the settings, the attenuation setting for the probe is not saved or restored when loading.
Quote
it always worked this way.

Trying to understand what is and what is not saved in the settings file may be done by simply opening that file in a text editor. Most of the file can be easily read by humans (it starts with a bit of non-readable code but that must be the embedded screenprint).

In such a *.SET file saved fropm my RTB I see:

:PROB:SET:ATT:MAN 1.0000E+00
:PROB2:SET:ATT:MAN 1.0000E+00
:PROB3:SET:ATT:MAN 1.0000E+00
:PROB4:SET:ATT:MAN 1.0000E+00

This suggests that such settings are at least saved in that file.

I would assume that they would also be used when the file is read. But I have not tested that, so if it does not, then it is an interesting question why so....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on February 08, 2022, 07:32:44 pm
It seem that in zoom mode it measure only from second screen(zoomed), where the signal is clipped.
On another oscilloscope this is not happen but R&S is the only that I have with this kind of zoom (horizontal and vertical), so here the problem.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on February 08, 2022, 09:40:22 pm
It seem that in zoom mode it measure only from second screen(zoomed), where the signal is clipped.
On another oscilloscope this is not happen but R&S is the only that I have with this kind of zoom (horizontal and vertical), so here the problem.
The reason for zooming in is to look at the detail of a signal so it makes sense to have the measurements active for the parts you are interested in. IOW: it makes sense that the measurements work on the signal in the zoom window and not the main window with the entire signal in it.

Note that the RTB2004 uses decimated data for the measurements so (for example) measuring the risetime of an edge is not always possible for the main window. But when zoomed in, you can get a good measurement. Or think about measuring the frequency at a certain point of the signal. In a way the zoom window works as a measurement gating system as well.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on February 08, 2022, 10:37:24 pm
It seem that in zoom mode it measure only from second screen(zoomed), where the signal is clipped.
On another oscilloscope this is not happen but R&S is the only that I have with this kind of zoom (horizontal and vertical), so here the problem.
The reason for zooming in is to look at the detail of a signal so it makes sense to have the measurements active for the parts you are interested in. IOW: it makes sense that the measurements work on the signal in the zoom window and not the main window with the entire signal in it.

Note that the RTB2004 uses decimated data for the measurements so (for example) measuring the risetime of an edge is not always possible for the main window. But when zoomed in, you can get a good measurement. Or think about measuring the frequency at a certain point of the signal. In a way the zoom window works as a measurement gating system as well.

On some scopes you have gating: a function like cursors, where you use it to select part of the waveform that is of interest for you and then tell it to do measurements only from that area.
Some scopes (some from R&S, Keysight etc) use zoom function for that functionality.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on February 08, 2022, 10:48:15 pm
It seem that in zoom mode it measure only from second screen(zoomed), where the signal is clipped.
On another oscilloscope this is not happen but R&S is the only that I have with this kind of zoom (horizontal and vertical), so here the problem.
The reason for zooming in is to look at the detail of a signal so it makes sense to have the measurements active for the parts you are interested in. IOW: it makes sense that the measurements work on the signal in the zoom window and not the main window with the entire signal in it.

Note that the RTB2004 uses decimated data for the measurements so (for example) measuring the risetime of an edge is not always possible for the main window. But when zoomed in, you can get a good measurement. Or think about measuring the frequency at a certain point of the signal. In a way the zoom window works as a measurement gating system as well.

Not always ... the measure is already done in the main window before zooming, but yeah some time you want to measure tiny details ...
Maybe it would be usefull a choice to tell the scope which windows to use for the measurements as 2N3055 describe.
I'm curious what R&S will have to say about.
Overall I am very satisfied with the zoom function.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Martin72 on February 08, 2022, 10:56:14 pm
Quote from: 2N3055
On some scopes you have gating: a function like cursors, where you use it to select part of the waveform that is of interest for you and then tell it to do measurements only from that area.
Some scopes (some from R&S, Keysight etc) use zoom function for that functionality.

Older and new lecroy scopes does have it too.
When you call up the measure functions, there is a possibility to change the measuring gate.
By default it´s the whole screen in divisions, now you can select start and end and inbetween the measure will be taken.
But on the elder lecroys (waverunner lt, 93xx) you have the function "tracking", this means once you determined the measure gate, you could move it through the the screen and what´s inbetween will be measured - Very nice and comfortable.
But on newer models starting with windows as OS, you don´t have the tracking function anymore.
Lecroy support tells me to use the zoom function instead.
Yes it will work, but it´s awful to use in comparison to the "old" solution. :P
Rigol and thank god siglent too, using the trackable measure gate function.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on February 09, 2022, 10:49:37 am
I have understood it now. The measuring range is not the displayed zoom range, but the complete height, and only the selected width of the zoom range.

Peter

Correct. It is  same way on Keysight 3000T.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on February 10, 2022, 09:11:22 pm
Hello all,

In the aftermath of the serial decode episode of the YouTube videos series I am doing on various scopes I am doing, I ran into something strange.

The RTB serial trigger is particularly powerful because of its wildcard support. But the CAN serial trigger shows a strange quirk that the other decodes in the RTB do not seem to have. If you trigger on “identity and data”, then the trigger only works if you know (and set) in advance the exact frame length. (Same thing for the CAN protocol search function). I attach a document that should allow you to replicate that behavior rather simply, using the instrument’s built-in CAN signal generator and the app.

The LIN(*), SPI, I2C and UART serial trigger do not have this ‘issue’. There, you find the data string regardless of whether you know and set the frame length.

Strangely, the LIN search function does have the issue, but not the LIN trigger.

Thoughts anyone? Is this a bug? If not, why is the CAN decode different from the other decodes? Or am I overseeing something?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on February 10, 2022, 09:14:57 pm
While I also tend towards the "bug" (or at least "not intentionally thought of as a constraint") interpretation, one thing that *could* play a role is the answer to the following question: According to the CAN standard, is it even permissible to have, on a particular bus, CAN messages with identical ID but variable message length?

I don't recall seeing that myself, but my experience is entirely in a hobby context and limited, and even then convention does not imply requirement.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on February 10, 2022, 09:30:30 pm
@PeDre: just a  :-+ for all the cool stuff you are finding & reporting!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rydda on February 11, 2022, 02:03:11 am
@PeDre
Quote
I read out the temperatures and the fan speed with undocumented SCPI commands.
Attached is a recording of one hour directly after power on. Every 5 seconds the values for ADC0, FPGA, CPU, TMP432, fan speed and rpm were stored. Only channels 1 and 3 were active in the default setting. The room temperature was ~ 20 degrees Celsius.
Are the ADC temperature values correct? I'm asking because the heat sink on mine levels out at 34C, so a chip temperature of 64C seems high. Also it looks as if the plotted temperature starts at 42C and not at 20C.

Quote
....then back to automatic control for half an hour.
Does your scope control the fan speed?  Mine runs continuously at 1750 rpm irrespective of temperature. No control whatsoever.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tv84 on February 11, 2022, 10:02:24 am
Nitpicking: You should place the time unit in the X axis.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on February 11, 2022, 07:46:21 pm
Quote
While I also tend towards the "bug" (or at least "not intentionally thought of as a constraint") interpretation, one thing that *could* play a role is the answer to the following question: According to the CAN standard, is it even permissible to have, on a particular bus, CAN messages with identical ID but variable message length?

Dear bayjelly, thanks for the comments. Indeed, it seems not uncommon that using CAN, messages using the same message ID have different length. In fact, the screenprint I posted has two examples of that. But not sure how that would be a reason to deliberately choose to make the device behave like it does for CAN triggering.

I also note that for the LIN protocol, this issue is not present for the trigger but it is present for the search module (which uses exactly the same screen for settings). Also this makes me suspect it's actually a bug...

I made an updated version of the little document that allows people to replicate this (or debunk if I'm doing something wrong;-). In the updated version (attached) the CAN part is the same, but I added the procedure for LIN (almost identical) where the issue is not present for serial triggering.

If anyone who owns an RTB cares to try (should not take more than a couple of minutes) and to share what he/she thinks if this is normal...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on February 12, 2022, 03:43:11 am
Hello,

in RTA4004 there a 1.1 more error.

insteed "Identifier and data" it is "Adresse und Daten"
and in the CAN text is "RTB2000".

Best regards
egonotto
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on February 12, 2022, 07:00:41 am
Quote
in RTA4004 there a 1.1 more error. [...] and in the CAN text is "RTB2000".

Seems your RTA has a bit of an identity crises....  ;)

(My Keysight alse sends out an "Agilent!" string as part of its serial training siglent, but thats a slightly different thing...)

Best regards, RBBVNL9
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on February 12, 2022, 12:06:32 pm
Hello,

the RTA4004 has the same error as RBBVNL9 describes " the scope only triggers in CAN (ID&data) if you set the exact right message length, while in LIN that is not the case...".
Moreover in german often they write adresse where identifier is meant.

Best regards
egonotto
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on February 12, 2022, 02:51:13 pm
Quote
the RTA4004 has the same error as RBBVNL9 describes " the scope only triggers in CAN (ID&data) if you set the exact right message length, while in LIN that is not the case...".

egonotto, thanks for confirming! The more I look at this, the more I think its a bug, present in 3 places but not in 4 other four places where this same function is offered. And apparently present in both RTB2xxx and RTA4xxx series (and likely also in RTM3xxx series but this is not yet confirmed).

Work for the R&D firmware upgrade people....

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on February 12, 2022, 06:40:37 pm
My best is that this is due to using decimated data for measurements and math.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on February 21, 2022, 10:38:55 pm
Man, you need to work at R&S as a test engineer.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on February 21, 2022, 10:45:46 pm
When is the last time you have seen a PAL signal? I can imagine they added it for completeness and didn't pay much attention to testing it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: SL4P on February 21, 2022, 11:07:47 pm
Well, he did say SD…I’m hoping he meant Serial Digital (~270Mbps)
So I’m hoping that’s where his comment came from.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on February 22, 2022, 01:54:12 am
AFAIK SD is standard definition. Like 700 x 500 pixels (4:3) or so which is good old analog television.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on February 22, 2022, 02:01:48 am
When is the last time you have seen a PAL signal? I can imagine they added it for completeness and didn't pay much attention to testing it.

Super niche, but I'm using PAL triggering all the time for some self-made video circuits. Works overall pretty well for me, except that triggering on a certain line is sometimes glitching to another line, which could however be an artifact of my terribly jittering color burst frequency that drives the whole signal (synthesized from a clock that doesn't fit at all).

Not to negate your point, PAL signals probably are rather rare nowadays.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on February 22, 2022, 11:32:35 am
I don't use Python either but I have copy & pasted Python scripts together to get screendumps from various devices. Having an extra module that deals with reading & formatting the data makes life easier for Python copy & pasters like me.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MaxZ on March 01, 2022, 09:41:14 am
Anyone got a download link for the now old firmware v2.300? Couldn't find it on R&S website and I don't want to do an upgrade on my oscilloscope without a way back.

Edit: Someone sent it to me, thank you!


Thanks!
Max
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MaxZ on March 01, 2022, 01:00:57 pm
Update to v2.4 went flawlessly but the bug I hoped to be fixed is unfortunately still there... Reported half a year ago, maybe a post here gives it some more attention:
To reproduce
* hook up any channel to the 1kHz probe calibration signal (signal source really doesn't matter but this is the easiest)
* Put it into auto mode, with the trigger somewhere above/below the signal (=> free running)
* Hit the stop button
What you get are multiple overlapping waveforms on the screen. You have to scroll horizontally or rescale to get rid of the excessive waveforms. Note that I don't have any persistence option enabled.
This issue can also occur when using normal mode plus single shot. This is especially annoying because it's not always obvious that you have multiple overlapping waveforms...

Hope this gets fixed!
Max
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 02, 2022, 06:09:00 pm
Update to v2.4 went flawlessly but the bug I hoped to be fixed is unfortunately still there... Reported half a year ago, maybe a post here gives it some more attention:
To reproduce
* hook up any channel to the 1kHz probe calibration signal (signal source really doesn't matter but this is the easiest)
* Put it into auto mode, with the trigger somewhere above/below the signal (=> free running)
* Hit the stop button
What you get are multiple overlapping waveforms on the screen. You have to scroll horizontally or rescale to get rid of the excessive waveforms. Note that I don't have any persistence option enabled.
This issue can also occur when using normal mode plus single shot. This is especially annoying because it's not always obvious that you have multiple overlapping waveforms...
IMHO it is not a bug but a feature. Some Tektronix oscilloscopes also do this. Sometimes it is handy to have the previous capture still on the screen to see how a signal has changed compared to the current acquisition. Sometimes it is a nuisance because you have to do something (probably pressing the channel button also clears the old trace) to get rid of the previous trace.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on March 02, 2022, 07:35:08 pm
..................
I think Siglent has such a function, with Fast and Slow Acquisition, but I know that only from reading here in the forum.
...............

I cannot say about other scopes, but SDS6000A series shows only last acquisition on stop. You need to enable short persistence to get multiple acquisitions on screen when you stop.

Fast and Slow Acquisition mode is a switch between digital persistence (Fast)  and old school single acquisition per display cycle (Slow) mode.

With LeCroy, Siglent and R&S you get previous acquisitions history buffers too. That is much more powerful way to look at burst of previous triggers...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 10, 2022, 08:22:09 pm
I've been seeing a really odd issue on my RTM3004 since the last FW update.
Every so often, the screen very briefly  fills with a fuzzy blue (ch4 colour) mush. frequency  of occurrence is of the order of 10s of minutes.

Now it gets weirder....
I turned Ch4 off to see if this stopped it, but every so often it still did the same, andat the same time, it also turned Ch4 back on!

Will try to get a video at some point.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on March 11, 2022, 08:51:27 am
Mike, the R&S is just afraid of all those Tornado lasers around, so thats why the malfunction....
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: vokars on March 15, 2022, 06:12:42 pm
Math Source and Signal-to-Noise-Ratio

Hi RTB2000 Community,

I still would like to buy the RTB 2000. Could someone, who already has this device, tell me,

1. if the math trace source can be a reference waveform? The user manual seems to say: No, only measurement channels or other math channels?

2. what is your preferred method for measuring the signal-to-noise ratio / signal noise independent from the device noise?

I am asking, because I would solve item 2 with this method:

a) measure StDev of the noise floor without any signal: Device Noise
b) measure the signal in average acquisition mode to eliminate the noise (down to a sufficient level) and save as a reference waveform.
c) Switch average acquisition mode off again and create a math channel to substract the reference from the signal (needs 1. : Reference as math source).
d) Calculate StDev from this math channel
e) Calculate the signal noise StDev with sqrt( StDev(noise from d)^2 - StDev(noise floor from a)^2   )

I expect, that this could be done with SCPI/Python script, but within the device would be much better.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: simone_b on March 29, 2022, 02:31:23 pm
Hello,

I have an RTB2004 that after calibration (not made by R&S) has the issue that you can see attached: waveform should be the reference square wave of the oscilloscope.

The R&S support suggested to run a self alignment procedure and check, but unfortunately it didn't fix it.
Now I have 2 options: paid replacement (about half the price of a new one, delivery time 20weeks) or buy an ex-demo unit with a 2weeks of delivery time.

Do you know what this issue is and if it is something fixable by user (oscilloscope is already out of warranty, so opening it doesn't void warranty)?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on March 29, 2022, 02:42:21 pm
That's an interesting failure. Can you go to the finest timebase and see what happens? Mess with different acquisition settings as well.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: simone_b on March 29, 2022, 02:52:14 pm
Hello KaneTW,

thanks for your reply. Please see attached capture.

I didn't say in my previous post that the oscilloscope has been updated to the latest FW version available (02.400) and that it was resetted to the factory settings with a secure erase

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: simone_b on March 29, 2022, 02:56:21 pm
Also, channel 3 and 4 are not affected by this issue, but only 1 and 2
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 29, 2022, 02:59:14 pm
That could be a hardware defect. How about going back to the company that did the calibration and let them deal with the issue? They seem to have broken your scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on March 29, 2022, 03:04:16 pm
Thank you. A few theories would be a high speed signal coupling onto the ADC input, or data corruption coming out of the ADC.
Can you try (separately):
* Turning off interleaved mode (in case there's an issue with interleaving)
* Changing the sample rates
* Turning on hi-res mode

Wouldn't be surprised if something fried the ADC. I don't remember the ADC structure -- is Ch1+Ch3 interleaved or Ch1+Ch2?

That could be a hardware defect. How about going back to the company that did the calibration and let them deal with the issue? They seem to have broken your scope.
Yep. Looks like they messed something up for sure.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: simone_b on March 29, 2022, 03:05:19 pm
The company that did the calibration can't repair or probably it's better to say that don't want to repair and give support. I'm angry about that, as I sent a working oscilloscope and I received a broken one  >:(
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on March 29, 2022, 03:05:51 pm
The company that did the calibration can't repair or probably it's better to say that don't want to repair and give support. I'm angry about that, as I sent a working oscilloscope and I received a broken one  >:(

Sounds like it's time to lawyer up.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: simone_b on March 29, 2022, 03:15:46 pm
With a lower sample rate (under 62.5Msamples) the issue disappears. Let me check how to turn off interleaved mode and I'll post a new capture
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: simone_b on March 29, 2022, 03:22:16 pm
with a sample rate of 62.5Msamples (or lower) and only CH1 waveform is correct, with CH2 enabled and the same sample rate I have the issue again
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tv84 on March 29, 2022, 03:26:36 pm
The company that did the calibration can't repair or probably it's better to say that don't want to repair and give support. I'm angry about that, as I sent a working oscilloscope and I received a broken one  >:(

You paid and have a receipt, right? If so, you're good to go. If not, then not much support.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: simone_b on March 29, 2022, 03:28:49 pm
The company that did the calibration can't repair or probably it's better to say that don't want to repair and give support. I'm angry about that, as I sent a working oscilloscope and I received a broken one  >:(

You paid and have a receipt, right? If so, you're good to go. If not, then not much support.

Of course I have, but the company refuses to repair it, as they said that it was probably damaged during the shipping or delivery
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on March 29, 2022, 03:35:53 pm
The company that did the calibration can't repair or probably it's better to say that don't want to repair and give support. I'm angry about that, as I sent a working oscilloscope and I received a broken one  >:(

You paid and have a receipt, right? If so, you're good to go. If not, then not much support.

Of course I have, but the company refuses to repair it, as they said that it was probably damaged during the shipping or delivery
Better get into the fine print then of who is responsible for the shipping and who is liable for shipping damages. It is time for you to seek legal advice about what your rights are here.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: simone_b on March 29, 2022, 07:07:27 pm
Better get into the fine print then of who is responsible for the shipping and who is liable for shipping damages. It is time for you to seek legal advice about what your rights are here.

I have checked with my colleague who had in charge the calibration: oscilloscope and other non electronic instruments have been sent to a company (A) for calibration. This company (A) sent the oscilloscope to another company (B) for calibration and a certificate was issued. Then the oscilloscope was sent back to company (A) and then back to me.

I have found the issue after about 1.5 months after the calibration as I don't use it everyday and now, from what I saw with your help, I can probably say that it was because I only used one channel.

So what they are saying is that it was damaged during the delivery or that I have used anda damaged (without any proof) and so they are not responsible for that. I will check with the purchasing office, but probably a lawyer and all the bureaucracy around is more expensive than an ex-demo.

According to the user manual:

Quote
Service manual
Describes the performance test for checking the rated specifications, module replace-
ment and repair, firmware update, troubleshooting and fault elimination, and contains
mechanical drawings and spare part lists. The service manual is available for regis-
tered users on the global Rohde & Schwarz information system (GLORIS, https://
gloris.rohde-schwarz.com).

Do you know if the service manuals are available for end users too or only for some labs/services?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on March 29, 2022, 07:14:40 pm
I found the RTM3000 service manual, but not the RTB2000 (https://gloris.rohde-schwarz.com/file/RTM3000_RTA4000_ServiceManual_en_03.pdf). I sent a request to R&S.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: simone_b on March 29, 2022, 07:18:06 pm
Thanks, I was checking too, but I couldn't find anything for RTB2004, even if the quoted text if from RTB2004 user manual.
I'll check the service manual you shared to see what kind of informations are included
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: simone_b on March 29, 2022, 07:30:08 pm
As I thought schematics are not available
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on March 29, 2022, 08:03:31 pm
Better get into the fine print then of who is responsible for the shipping and who is liable for shipping damages. It is time for you to seek legal advice about what your rights are here.

I have checked with my colleague who had in charge the calibration: oscilloscope and other non electronic instruments have been sent to a company (A) for calibration. This company (A) sent the oscilloscope to another company (B) for calibration and a certificate was issued. Then the oscilloscope was sent back to company (A) and then back to me.

I have found the issue after about 1.5 months after the calibration as I don't use it everyday and now, from what I saw with your help, I can probably say that it was because I only used one channel.

So what they are saying is that it was damaged during the delivery or that I have used anda damaged (without any proof) and so they are not responsible for that. I will check with the purchasing office, but probably a lawyer and all the bureaucracy around is more expensive than an ex-demo.

According to the user manual:

Quote
Service manual
Describes the performance test for checking the rated specifications, module replace-
ment and repair, firmware update, troubleshooting and fault elimination, and contains
mechanical drawings and spare part lists. The service manual is available for regis-
tered users on the global Rohde & Schwarz information system (GLORIS, https://
gloris.rohde-schwarz.com).

Do you know if the service manuals are available for end users too or only for some labs/services?

Is this random "noise" looking same on both CH1 and CH2? If it does, than it cannot be analog front end. It must be with ADC or after..

Well, that particular defect might not have to do anything with the calibration. Maybe vibration in transport exacerbated the problem, but probably it is manufacturing defect. If scope has no visible signs of mechanical damage, electronics could not be damaged in this way by cal facility. There are many occasions that scopes fall of the desk, are visibly completely broken but power up just fine and work. There was a guy here on EEVBLOG that repaired a Keysight 3000A scope that had car run over it in a parking.  He had problems finding pieces of the case, but scope worked fine.

Problem is most likely in ADC for those CH or in acquisition data pump/memory part for that ADC.
It is either IC defect (bonding defect for instance) or soldering..
If warranty is not there, careful disassembly and testing with cold/hot air or gentle tapping around the board might reveal
location.  In which case if it is soldering, it might be fixed by reflow.

I wouldn't go lawyer path. They will be more expensive than scope in just few hours.
Just get the "new" demo one and get insurance for it this time.

I don't know if R&S has extended warranty maintenance contracts like Keysight.
With Keysight they are actually good deal. Maybe ask them.

Once you have replacement working scope, you might try repair old one. If you succeed, you have another one.
But you would need to send it to calibration again to verify it's working OK. Or just perform performance verification yourself if you have equipment.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on March 29, 2022, 08:07:05 pm
I wouldn't go lawyer path. They will be more expensive than scope in just few hours.
Just get the "new" demo one and get insurance for it this time.

A lawyer will probably cost a bit, but for me it's more about penalizing bad business behavior than maximum profit. Consulting on whether you have a leg to stand on will be a few hundred at most.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on March 29, 2022, 08:25:00 pm
I wouldn't go lawyer path. They will be more expensive than scope in just few hours.
Just get the "new" demo one and get insurance for it this time.

A lawyer will probably cost a bit, but for me it's more about penalizing bad business behavior than maximum profit. Consulting on whether you have a leg to stand on will be a few hundred at most.

Nature of defect to me point more likely of a manufacturing defect by R&S.
There is no proof that calibration facility did anything wrong.
You cannot damage ADC or circuits after it simply from the outside.

It was simply spotted few months after calibration and presumed it was because of that.
It can be coincidence.

Maybe, if the scope was previously run in the lab that has high temperature variations during the day or if it was carried around on daily basis and exposed to vibration regularly,  it might have broken down during warranty...

We can't know.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: simone_b on March 29, 2022, 08:38:18 pm
Better get into the fine print then of who is responsible for the shipping and who is liable for shipping damages. It is time for you to seek legal advice about what your rights are here.

I have checked with my colleague who had in charge the calibration: oscilloscope and other non electronic instruments have been sent to a company (A) for calibration. This company (A) sent the oscilloscope to another company (B) for calibration and a certificate was issued. Then the oscilloscope was sent back to company (A) and then back to me.

I have found the issue after about 1.5 months after the calibration as I don't use it everyday and now, from what I saw with your help, I can probably say that it was because I only used one channel.

So what they are saying is that it was damaged during the delivery or that I have used anda damaged (without any proof) and so they are not responsible for that. I will check with the purchasing office, but probably a lawyer and all the bureaucracy around is more expensive than an ex-demo.

According to the user manual:

Quote
Service manual
Describes the performance test for checking the rated specifications, module replace-
ment and repair, firmware update, troubleshooting and fault elimination, and contains
mechanical drawings and spare part lists. The service manual is available for regis-
tered users on the global Rohde & Schwarz information system (GLORIS, https://
gloris.rohde-schwarz.com).

Do you know if the service manuals are available for end users too or only for some labs/services?

Is this random "noise" looking same on both CH1 and CH2? If it does, than it cannot be analog front end. It must be with ADC or after..

Well, that particular defect might not have to do anything with the calibration. Maybe vibration in transport exacerbated the problem, but probably it is manufacturing defect. If scope has no visible signs of mechanical damage, electronics could not be damaged in this way by cal facility. There are many occasions that scopes fall of the desk, are visibly completely broken but power up just fine and work. There was a guy here on EEVBLOG that repaired a Keysight 3000A scope that had car run over it in a parking.  He had problems finding pieces of the case, but scope worked fine.

Problem is most likely in ADC for those CH or in acquisition data pump/memory part for that ADC.
It is either IC defect (bonding defect for instance) or soldering..
If warranty is not there, careful disassembly and testing with cold/hot air or gentle tapping around the board might reveal
location.  In which case if it is soldering, it might be fixed by reflow.

I wouldn't go lawyer path. They will be more expensive than scope in just few hours.
Just get the "new" demo one and get insurance for it this time.

I don't know if R&S has extended warranty maintenance contracts like Keysight.
With Keysight they are actually good deal. Maybe ask them.

Once you have replacement working scope, you might try repair old one. If you succeed, you have another one.
But you would need to send it to calibration again to verify it's working OK. Or just perform performance verification yourself if you have equipment.

I will check tomorrow at the office.

I had the same idea, get a replacement, then try to repair the broken one I have and in case I succeed ask for a recalibration at R&S. I hate to throw away money even if my company pays
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on March 29, 2022, 08:41:35 pm
I will check tomorrow at the office.

I had the same idea, get a replacement, then try to repair the broken one I have and in case I succeed ask for a recalibration at R&S. I hate to throw away money even if my company pays

If it is for work (and that is what I understood) you can't have something that you can't trust.
And being responsible with other's money is a sign of integrity ..
That is how it should be. :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: simone_b on March 29, 2022, 08:45:27 pm
I wouldn't go lawyer path. They will be more expensive than scope in just few hours.
Just get the "new" demo one and get insurance for it this time.

A lawyer will probably cost a bit, but for me it's more about penalizing bad business behavior than maximum profit. Consulting on whether you have a leg to stand on will be a few hundred at most.

Yes, I agree in principle, but you have to deal also with bureaucracy (internal company policies, involve other people, etc). What I can do is to ask my company to not make business again with that service company
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: simone_b on March 29, 2022, 08:53:57 pm
Nature of defect to me point more likely of a manufacturing defect by R&S.
There is no proof that calibration facility did anything wrong.
You cannot damage ADC or circuits after it simply from the outside.

It was simply spotted few months after calibration and presumed it was because of that.
It can be coincidence.

Maybe, if the scope was previously run in the lab that has high temperature variations during the day or if it was carried around on daily basis and exposed to vibration regularly,  it might have broken down during warranty...

We can't know.

Yes, that's the position of the service company too, as we can't know it is just a (weird) coincidence. From my side I can say that the oscilloscope has been always in my desk before. We will check terms&conditions we signed and in case the service company will not replace the oscilloscope (very likely) then the next time we will be more careful about what we sign and use another service (R&S)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on April 13, 2022, 11:12:41 pm
Solid work. Thanks, Peter.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on April 15, 2022, 01:47:19 pm
For these kind of measurements you also need to make a set with the 20MHz bandwidth limit on. The SNR will be dominated by clock jitter at high samplerates.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on April 16, 2022, 02:04:21 am
If I find the time, I will also perform the same measurements on my (relatively old, by now) RTB2004. I'm curious whether that makes a difference. I understand the theory (or at least I hope so) and am well familiar with the Matlab functions used, so I can also think about the methodology when repeating it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on April 16, 2022, 09:00:18 am
Timebase and an amount of data is not really optimum to get good analysis and fair comparison.

By performing an analysis on very short interval you are effectively filtering out low frequencies. Periods longer than interval captured cannot exist in that sample, they appear as apparent slow DC drift and get removed in calculation.

Scopes do not have same distribution of noise across all frequencies... And different scope will have different distribution.

In that A.N. Agilent makes analysis on a 1 Mpts of data. With 5 GS/s that means they were at 20µs/div, making analysis on 200µs worth of data, more realistic view of scope input noise...

Also, to make it completely fair, data would have to be truncated to exactly the same (time) length from all scopes, despite the fact they might have different sample rates and horizontal time/div screens...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on July 02, 2022, 10:39:04 pm
It was funny for me watchiny polish video the first of vids that was able in internet about RTB2004, when lector tell that it is hard to say who will be used this scope, professionals or more rich beginners. The price is not properly adjust for the capibilities and features. 20k PLN in my conutry ok. 5$ for full version, for 20k PLN you can buy in our local auction site MSOX3104T without options. I is not nesecerrly to say with is better choice. Ok for fun and play with opt. drawn smile on the screen with math from elementary school fo e.g.
I decide to pay 3 times more for refusibed renew RTE1204 with MSO and ISO Certificate.
But for pro use buy scope is only the begining of the cost you must afford. Even RTO2000 comes with simple passive probes. Options probes siutable for what you are going to measure it is a lot of money....
And at the end why everybody was exited about 10-bit ADC, when is clearly write 10bit (ENOB ok. 7bit) for worse even in documentation of RTO2000 16bit HD instruction say the same... :/ I know that programable itis done that this do the difference, but hardware is the same. I have HMOo1102 and can set it either to 16bits.?
And the wores is the fact that scope that cost that price have no read-out interface. It means you can forgot about dediceted for example differential probes just when you open the box and realised that gold bnc's does not do the job. Looks good, but it is not a picture, it is anylasying device. This prove me that it is expensiv scope for home use or teaching. RTM3000 is something 180 round.
MSO Ports when you looking at them sems to be saying conect to me ATA disc cable hack option and tell who is the winner now..... hehhehe :D

RTE1000 relly do the job on  pro level just look at this:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on July 03, 2022, 12:00:28 am
MDO3054 with i have, also have arbitrally AWG, Power Anylasys, Okno Bode Plot, but real hardware very good spectrum anylaser with bandwith in option up to 3GHz (or up to BW of scope) I have full, and it is someting that FFT from RTB2004 doesn;t beat, but enchenced FFT in RTE1000 is able to give a tool even more (i don;t know it) powerful?

From interesting phenomen which I read occurs not only in RTB2004, I decide to check my Tek MDO3054. 1mV gently beating - even with bnc - no gain.
Interesting is fact that is common. But few people with RTB2004 have no problem?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: arcitech on August 08, 2022, 10:30:44 pm
I had an RTB arrive recently and just today had the opportunity to grab its cal cert for record keeping. I was a bit surprised that it was calibrated around 650 days before my order was placed. I have no cause for any actual concern (so far, at least).

It was interesting to see what they use for the RTB (plain-old factory) cal process:

I'd guess they dogfood the NGUs these days in the plant's cal lab...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on August 08, 2022, 10:33:58 pm
I had an RTB arrive recently and just today had the opportunity to grab its cal cert for record keeping. I was a bit surprised that it was calibrated around 650 days before my order was placed. I have no cause for any actual concern (so far, at least).

It was interesting to see what they use for the RTB (plain-old factory) cal process:
  • R&S NRP-Z91 power sensor
  • Keithley 2601A System SourceMeter
  • a trusty 34401A

I'd guess they dogfood the NGUs these days in the plant's cal lab...
Without a valid/current Cal cert I hope you got a nice discount on the list price.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Martin72 on August 08, 2022, 10:49:14 pm
Question is what is a valid cal cert...
The fore-printed one sheet of paper from siglent for example surely not.
To have it valid you have to make it sure that the scope is calibrated from a lab totally independend from you(your work) and from the manufacturer.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on August 08, 2022, 10:55:54 pm
To have it valid you have to make it sure that the scope is calibrated from a lab totally independent from you(your work) and from the manufacturer.
Says who ?

If all instruments used to verify accuracy meet or better the factory Cal instrument spec and they are within their Cal period then what is the problem ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on August 08, 2022, 10:58:56 pm
Question is what is a valid cal cert...
The fore-printed one sheet of paper from siglent for example surely not.
To have it valid you have to make it sure that the scope is calibrated from a lab totally independend from you(your work) and from the manufacturer.
That doesn't sound plausible to me at all. For as long as the calibration result is traceable to a standard and the lab has been accredited, the calibration is legally valid. Big test equipment manufacturers typically have their own accredited calibration labs. Take a look at Keysight for example: https://www.keysight.com/nl/en/products/services/calibration-services/iso-iec-17025-accreditation.html (https://www.keysight.com/nl/en/products/services/calibration-services/iso-iec-17025-accreditation.html) Personally I strongly prefer to send my equipment to the manufacturer for calibration IF they have an accredited calibration lab. They know their own equipment best and likely have the tools to do the calibration most efficiently.

To have it valid you have to make it sure that the scope is calibrated from a lab totally independent from you(your work) and from the manufacturer.
Says who ?
If all instruments used to verify accuracy meet or better the factory Cal instrument spec and they are within their Cal period then what is the problem ?
See above. It is not that simple. The way the calibrations are performed (procedures) also need to be verified by an external party. Siglent makes no mention of being actually accredited to perform calibrations properly.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on August 08, 2022, 11:08:04 pm
Question is what is a valid cal cert...
The fore-printed one sheet of paper from siglent for example surely not.
To have it valid you have to make it sure that the scope is calibrated from a lab totally independend from you(your work) and from the manufacturer.
That doesn't sound plausible to me at all. For as long as the calibration result is traceable to a standard and the lab has been accredited, the calibration is valid. Test equipment manufacturers typically have their own accredited calibration labs. Take a look at Keysight for example: https://www.keysight.com/nl/en/products/services/calibration-services/iso-iec-17025-accreditation.html (https://www.keysight.com/nl/en/products/services/calibration-services/iso-iec-17025-accreditation.html)

To have it valid you have to make it sure that the scope is calibrated from a lab totally independent from you(your work) and from the manufacturer.
Says who ?
If all instruments used to verify accuracy meet or better the factory Cal instrument spec and they are within their Cal period then what is the problem ?
See above. It is not that simple.
Yes of course, an accredited Cal lab that most companies that make test equipment and provide an instrument Cal sheet already are.
It's not rocket science.....does it meet or better datasheet spec ?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on August 09, 2022, 08:50:18 am
I had an RTB arrive recently and just today had the opportunity to grab its cal cert for record keeping. I was a bit surprised that it was calibrated around 650 days before my order was placed. I have no cause for any actual concern (so far, at least).

It was interesting to see what they use for the RTB (plain-old factory) cal process:
  • R&S NRP-Z91 power sensor
  • Keithley 2601A System SourceMeter
  • a trusty 34401A


I'd guess they dogfood the NGUs these days in the plant's cal lab...

For RTB 2004 they used different gear between factory and service.[attach=1][attach=2]
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on August 09, 2022, 04:38:31 pm
Personally I strongly prefer to send my equipment to the manufacturer for calibration IF they have an accredited calibration lab. They know their own equipment best and likely have the tools to do the calibration most efficiently.

We also strongly prefer you send your R&S instruments to us for calibration  :)   

Actually, there can be significant differences between a manufacturer and a third-party calibration:  for example, are adjustments always performed to bring the instrument as close as possible to optimal values, or only when the values fall outside of the tolerance range? 

Often the calibration interval is based on the instrument starting the cycle with near optimal values:  an instrument that just barely passed a third-party cal (and was not adjusted) may go out of cal much more quickly than an instrument that was optimized (as we always do) during the last cal.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Martin72 on August 09, 2022, 09:21:05 pm
Says who ?

If all instruments used to verify accuracy meet or better the factory Cal instrument spec and they are within their Cal period then what is the problem ?

It´s not that easy...
We´re Iso certified(not only), everything we use in the testfield* must be fully traceable calibrated from an external DAkkS certified lab.
DAkkS are worldwide accepted even in MIL/Aero ranges(It will be enough when our equipment is calibrated according to ISO, but this must be done from a lab with "higher" Standard (DAkkS) ).
To be clearer, as I´ve bought the siglent scopes for our testfield the first thing was to send them to the lab for calibrating.
Because with the one sheet of cal-cert paper which lies in the package you can wipe your a** with.
For private usage it´s ok because you don´t need any certified things.
When we buy a scope from lecroy, there is always a complete calibration protocol with individual values attached.
Fully traceable including a cal-sticker (valid until...).
Even the "cheap" Wavesurfer come with it.
R&S, Keysight, Tektronix also.
It´s a "Pro-Standard", of course you can´t expect that on the "low-cost" models from siglent, so it was no surprise they came with nothing in this way.
But if we would buy for example a SDS6000A model, we would expect the same individual documentation we get from the "Pros".
And not only a fore-printed one sheet of paper which says nothing, this is not pro-standard.



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: arcitech on August 25, 2022, 04:14:09 pm
Long shot, but might anyone be able to confirm the SoC in the RTB2000? I'm guessing i.MX 8 (biased by familiarity, for sure), or a less familiar Altera/Intel offering like the Arria or Stratix...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tv84 on August 25, 2022, 04:51:44 pm
Long shot, but might anyone be able to confirm the SoC in the RTB2000? I'm guessing i.MX 8 (biased by familiarity, for sure), or a less familiar Altera/Intel offering like the Arria or Stratix...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rs-rtb2004-snooping/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rs-rtb2004-snooping/)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on September 05, 2022, 09:04:19 pm
Quote
There are new versions of the manuals.

It's a good habit of R&S to update their manuals, also when new firmware versions are released.

The new manual v12 is for FR2.4, but the v11 manual was already for FR2.4 as well.

I did a quick check and, apart from typographic changes, page shifting etc, I only found the following differences:

That's it... So no need to rush and read this new manual ;-)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on September 13, 2022, 05:19:04 pm
Can You hear about coming out for about 2 weeks +/- realese a new generation of scope on R&S, I think it can be something on middle level just nezt to RTE1000 which I planned to buy when I collect money and find full version. RTE1024, i wa0nna give a full wersion of MDO3054 with HV ori probes for RTE1024 eh ... :)

Inteeresting what R&S have as an AS card :D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on September 14, 2022, 06:47:41 pm
Can You hear about coming out for about 2 weeks +/- realese a new generation of scope on R&S

Yep, just two weeks away!

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/products/test-and-measurement/oscilloscopes/promotion/next-generation_255909.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/products/test-and-measurement/oscilloscopes/promotion/next-generation_255909.html)

I have one here in my office right now (and it's very nice) but I can't share anything about it until launch.  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Miles Teg on September 27, 2022, 12:03:55 pm
Hmmm...

Looking for a scope now.
Was looking on the R&S side and I'm tempted by going all in for the RTB2004 Full package at 4.300€

Offer ends 30 september.

Will I wait for the release news in 10 hours?  :P :o
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on September 27, 2022, 12:07:56 pm
Hmmm...

Looking for a scope now.
Was looking on the R&S side and I'm tempted by going all in for the RTB2004 Full package at 4.300€

Offer ends 30 september.

Will I wait for the release news in 10 hours?  :P :o
You might be well advised to study this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/functional-comparison-of-rs-rtb2000-siglent-sds2000x-and-keysight-dsox1000/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/functional-comparison-of-rs-rtb2000-siglent-sds2000x-and-keysight-dsox1000/)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on September 27, 2022, 12:30:35 pm
Hmmm...

Looking for a scope now.
Was looking on the R&S side and I'm tempted by going all in for the RTB2004 Full package at 4.300€

Offer ends 30 september.

Will I wait for the release news in 10 hours?  :P :o
I have a feeling that the new R&S scope is going to be aimed at the higher end market. Probably above their RTA4000. Likely several GHz of bandwidth with tens of Gs/s.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on September 27, 2022, 02:58:28 pm
I have a feeling that the new R&S scope is going to be aimed at the higher end market. Probably above their RTA4000. Likely several GHz of bandwidth with tens of Gs/s.

In about 6 hours I can post a picture of the one on my desk .... :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on September 27, 2022, 03:03:50 pm
I have a feeling that the new R&S scope is going to be aimed at the higher end market. Probably above their RTA4000. Likely several GHz of bandwidth with tens of Gs/s.

In about 6 hours I can post a picture of the one on my desk .... :)
Looking forward to that picture...  8)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on September 27, 2022, 10:03:54 pm
I have a feeling that the new R&S scope is going to be aimed at the higher end market. Probably above their RTA4000. Likely several GHz of bandwidth with tens of Gs/s.

In about 6 hours I can post a picture of the one on my desk .... :)
Looking forward to that picture...  8)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: jjoonathan on September 27, 2022, 10:42:41 pm
Sweeet! 4M wfm/s, 40k FFT/s, lively updates with deep memory... I love the focus on speed, it makes a scope so much more pleasant to use in every situation.

Does "independent settings" mean what it does on the current generation RTO, where adjusting span/rbw/etc translates into a settings adjustment on FFTs of the time domain acquisition data, or does it imply a completely separate path where I could, say, have a 902-928MHz FFT open at the same time as an 18 bit low bandwidth time domain measurement?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on September 27, 2022, 11:23:09 pm
Sweeet! 4M wfm/s, 40k FFT/s, lively updates with deep memory... I love the focus on speed, it makes a scope so much more pleasant to use in every situation.

Does "independent settings" mean what it does on the current generation RTO, where adjusting span/rbw/etc translates into a settings adjustment on FFTs of the time domain acquisition data, or does it imply a completely separate path where I could, say, have a 902-928MHz FFT open at the same time as an 18 bit low bandwidth time domain measurement?

The short answer is that you configure spectrum parameters similar to the way you would on a spec an:  center, span, RBW.  However, these parameters can be changed without affecting the time domain representation of the signal.  In other words, spectrum settings are independent of time domain settings, but the two domains are still correlated.

We have quite a few demo videos, etc. that will be appearing in the next few days (I believe) and this is one of the features that we show.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on September 28, 2022, 05:49:48 am
Nice!

It seems to me that the user interface is a – significant –  further development of that in the RTB2, RTM3 and RTA4 series, which I really like. And which allows the instrument to startup in mere seconds, talking of speed. (I might be wrong, though.).

The MXO 4 series is described as “the first of a new generation of oscilloscopes”, so I am curious to see what other products R&S has in store!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: capt bullshot on September 28, 2022, 06:49:28 am
The short answer is that you configure spectrum parameters similar to the way you would on a spec an:  center, span, RBW.  However, these parameters can be changed without affecting the time domain representation of the signal.  In other words, spectrum settings are independent of time domain settings, but the two domains are still correlated.


So similar to what the RTB2k does regarding the FFT?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: CRTbrain on September 28, 2022, 02:15:21 pm
MXO 4 FFT is way better than RTB FFT...or anything I've seen on any scope before.  Time and freq settings are completely independent.  I tried the MXO 4 on some slow audio signals (had issues doing this with all other scopes) and it was able to show the tones with very fine RBW.  I don't think R&S specs THD or other audio...but I've never been able to see audio this well on a scope.  Really impressive.  (RTB FFT doesn't work well on audio tones).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on September 29, 2022, 04:57:05 am
Can You hear about coming out for about 2 weeks +/- realese a new generation of scope on R&S

Yep, just two weeks away!

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/products/test-and-measurement/oscilloscopes/promotion/next-generation_255909.html (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/products/test-and-measurement/oscilloscopes/promotion/next-generation_255909.html)

I have one here in my office right now (and it's very nice) but I can't share anything about it until launch.  :)

Oh, looks nice.

Here is a video just released:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmFTR4v7M1Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmFTR4v7M1Y)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Miki6 on September 29, 2022, 07:03:25 am
Dear forum.
Sorry, I'm writing with google translate.
RTB2002 70Mhz base scope bad square signal representation in 200mV/div and higher positions.
100mV/div and lower is good, but not perfect either.
A square signal is definitely good, with several generators,
also examined with other scopes. I think it's a divisive problem in these jobs.
Running self alignment, it won't be good.
Can they all be like this, or is it a unique error?
Thanks.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KrzysztofB on September 29, 2022, 10:02:53 am
Well if they had that crazy nice promo as RTB2004 had when was launched, would regret buying Keysight DSO804.
But with prices starting at 9K euros without anything, I guess it will be out of reach for most of us.
Looking nice though.

But it says: The first of the neXt generation

Maybe we will see something more reachable
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on September 29, 2022, 11:06:19 am
Dear forum.
Sorry, I'm writing with google translate.
RTB2002 70Mhz base scope bad square signal representation in 200mV/div and higher positions.
100mV/div and lower is good, but not perfect either.
A square signal is definitely good, with several generators,
also examined with other scopes. I think it's a divisive problem in these jobs.
Running self alignment, it won't be good.
You have to adjust your probes. See the manual for the procedure.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fgrir on September 29, 2022, 03:04:05 pm
Can they all be like this, or is it a unique error?

Mine's not quite as bad as yours, but it definitely has a similar issue at 200mV/div.  I am looking at the internal generator from the RTB2004, with 50ohm inline terminator.  The second image is the same signal viewed on my MSOX3024A.

EDIT:
Played around a bit more and all four channels on my RTB2004 behave similarly.  There is definitely a different settling waveform for 200mV/div and up vs. 100mv/div and below, and the relay click between those ranges says it's probably a different hardware path.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on September 29, 2022, 06:14:53 pm
Gerade probiert, hier ist der Effekt nicht zu beobachten (rtb2004)

Ah wrong language mode, sorry.

I tried it out with BNC and 50Ohm inline terminator on all channels shortly after switching on, and I barely can see a
very slight bend at the rising edge of the 100Hz Signal (from internal Generator, but does not change on external Generator Siglent).

Nowhere near as bad as the pictures shown from other posters.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: capt bullshot on September 29, 2022, 06:22:55 pm
Confirm that, it's even more obvious at 100Hz square wave signal (externall FG / 33120A and inline 50R terminator), but not as bad as the one from Miki6, rather similar to or maybe a bit better than Fgrir. So I'd guess it's a kind of design flaw, other scopes do a better job here. I've noticed fast edges aren't shown as nice as expected / possible. Otherwise, I bought that RTB2004 for it's vast capabilities and other "wow" stuff, but it's still somewhat disappointing discovering this particular issue.

Edit
Checked that with cycle RMS measurement and sine wave input: There's about 1% difference in amplitude from a below 1kHz to an above 1kHz input signal. Didn't check the specs of the RTB2004 whether this is within specs, but I wouldn't expect that behaviour from a decent oscilloscope front end.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Miki6 on September 29, 2022, 06:53:23 pm
Probes set, same error with BNC - BNC cable. There should be no difference between 100mV/Div and 200mV/Div settings, even with a bad probe setting.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Miles Teg on September 30, 2022, 09:50:07 am
Ha

Got my RTB2K-COM4 Full Package RTB ordered and paid  ;D

But delivery expected end of december  :o  :'(

Need to find a solution for the 2 next months for hiFi repair and my GPS mower project.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on September 30, 2022, 01:08:50 pm
My RTB2k bought at launch shows very little difference on a square wave when changing from 100 to 200 mV/div. There is a tiny change but nothing even close to worrying.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Miki6 on September 30, 2022, 06:54:51 pm
Looking at a 1KHz square wave signal? It is best seen there.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on September 30, 2022, 11:57:58 pm
Dear forum.
Sorry, I'm writing with google translate.
RTB2002 70Mhz base scope bad square signal representation in 200mV/div and higher positions.
100mV/div and lower is good, but not perfect either.
A square signal is definitely good, with several generators,
also examined with other scopes. I think it's a divisive problem in these jobs.
Running self alignment, it won't be good.
Can they all be like this, or is it a unique error?
Thanks.

Confirmed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 01, 2022, 01:24:16 am
Interesting. It would mean there is something wrong with the LF compensation in the input. A frequency sweep should reveal a dip in the frequency respsonse. Probably somewhere between 500Hz and 100kHz.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on October 01, 2022, 06:04:20 am
Quote
It seems to me that the user interface is a – significant –  further development of that in the RTB2, RTM3 and RTA4 series, which I really like. And which allows the instrument to startup in mere seconds, talking of speed. (I might be wrong, though.).

For the record, it seems I was indeed wrong about expecting a fast startup time.. In his YouTube review, AddOhm mentions that ‘Reboot time is about 45 seconds’. That of the RTB Is 8-10 seconds, a feature a learned to love.

But otherwise, the MXO4 looks like a great step forwards in many dimensions..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on October 02, 2022, 11:53:35 am
Forgot I uploaded this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XpyOGw6RFM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XpyOGw6RFM)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on October 02, 2022, 04:52:19 pm
Went and checked all the channels on mine using the internal sig-gen, they don't look as bad as Dave's but there is definitely a change when the attenuator kicks in. In this case I grabbed a capture from each side of the range switch (~150mV, depends on the calibrated gain of each channel) using fine vertical gain adjust. Screenshot windows are due to me being impatient when capturing (they're confirming the previous screenshot).

I seem to recall this coming up for other scopes - was it Siglent that sent out repair kits to those brave enough to open their scopes up?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 05, 2022, 12:33:36 pm
Here are two undocumented SCPI commands that may be helpful.
Returns the times for the start and stop of the current acquisition. Also works in single mode.

Peter

Code: [Select]
:ACQuire:TIME:STARt?
:ACQuire:TIME:STOP?

e.g.
:ACQ:TIME:STAR?;STOP?
15,52,6;15,52,21

What I should do with this "Code"?
Can You explain? Give more info?
BTW Due to the new R&S Scope, I thought that it will be something similar to RTO6, but compare OLD RTO Family, something on lower level, medium like RTE1000/RTO1000, but in the new , for me not new small sister of RTO6. Just it.
Unfourtunetly out of reach for amators/beginners .. Eept to inflation, when I buy RTB2004-COM4, I just look on RTM3004-COM4, and price shocked me, I use it every day and has no problem. The scope is exellent.
Eept newgeneration I wanna hae RTE1204. I have compare and see that R&S, Keysight are made using TOP of the TOP materials.
Errors occures, I hope Rohde$Schwarz do something with it. But It doesnt see problem on my scope. Mayby a little.
Thanks,
Michael (Misza)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on October 05, 2022, 02:06:55 pm
What I should do with this "Code"?

Those are SCPI commands for remote control of the instrument via network/serial/USB.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 05, 2022, 11:30:21 pm
Please explaiin me, csn somedbody say  is this error that can be just fied iif new correct firmware was realesed or iit is bad hardware problem. I am a little shocked.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on October 06, 2022, 01:26:38 am
Distortion is mostly visible with 1kHz square wave, so for most measurements -and the fact that one now knows the problem- it isn't a real problem at all.

It's a hardware problem, so Firmware won't fix it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 06, 2022, 09:36:17 am
Dave shows that it occurs in Riigol, Siglent, Tek Series 2.
So  They will have to make big repari action like is doing e.g. in the cars.
Should I give back my scope RTB204 because of that ? :(
I was etremly happy having him, I, donlt have money for RTM3000,but it probaly has the same issue.
Give me some tip, way what to do now.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 06, 2022, 09:43:48 am
Distortion is mostly visible with 1kHz square wave, so for most measurements -and the fact that one now knows the problem- it isn't a real problem at all.

It's a hardware problem, so Firmware won't fix it.

Please give me advice what i should do. Give back to vendor the scope (has gwarantty 3 yers). I love this scope, but if it;s better to give back.
I do it, and wait collect money to buy RTE1000 on ebay, I had hope that next geneation will be reachable. But It is amazing but price is also amazing shoking.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on October 06, 2022, 10:40:29 am
I will keep it. It´s a good scope with great features.
As I know the limitation, I will not wonder whats going on once I measure 1kHz square in some future scenario.
99.9% of time one measures somthing totally different or amplitude does not play big role, but general waveform or frequency or...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 06, 2022, 10:55:36 am
I will keep it. It´s a good scope with great features.
As I know the limitation, I will not wonder whats going on once I measure 1kHz square in some future scenario.
99.9% of time one measures somthing totally different or amplitude does not play big role, but general waveform or frequency or...
Thx, I suspect you are good in electronics, very good, having wide knowlage.
So if You keep It. I will keep it too. It is fantastic scope, design is great looks like high profesional scope, somebody do great job, thinked front panel.
I think too that it is very good oscilloscope, use It 3 months and everyday I;m impressed. Features and performance has exellent.
RTM3000 is 1/2 price of RTB2k-COM4 epensive, but iif i buy scope, i wanna have options, apps all with max BW.
RTM3000 with fully options is out of reach for me now :)
Funny, but siglent looks like has bigger screen then 10.1, but in datasheet is 10 inch. ;). R&S is big too, Siglent make case for this scope because  of looking like SDS6000 sister perhaps No my world Siglent, Rigol
Thx goaty ;)
Siglent mayby has 12bit ADC, Rigol too, but, it isn;t so important. R&S I have in work. RTO2000 and I trust them,
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: capt bullshot on October 06, 2022, 10:58:49 am
I will keep it. It´s a good scope with great features.
As I know the limitation, I will not wonder whats going on once I measure 1kHz square in some future scenario.
99.9% of time one measures somthing totally different or amplitude does not play big role, but general waveform or frequency or...

Looking at the step response of whatever kind of control loop, amplifier or whatever isn't that uncommon. You want an oscilloscope that doesn't add an unknown error here, I believe it's perfectly legal to expect a clean step response from any oscilloscope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on October 06, 2022, 11:47:24 am
I got the RTB2k-COM4 for 2.5k€, which was great price. (Used but practically brand new).

About the step response: I´m bad at theory and math, so will that show up in any scenario ? I think I might do some tests to understand that better.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Domitronic on October 06, 2022, 11:48:41 am

Interesting to see that the RTB seems to have a similiar issue as the Siglent SDS1104X-E. Wouldn't have expected this on the RTB in this price range and from R&S.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg4433131/#msg4433131 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg4433131/#msg4433131)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: capt bullshot on October 06, 2022, 12:21:10 pm
I got the RTB2k-COM4 for 2.5k€, which was great price. (Used but practically brand new).

About the step response: I´m bad at theory and math, so will that show up in any scenario ? I think I might do some tests to understand that better.

There's some math behind the step response (just the first two search results):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step_response (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step_response)
http://www.faadooengineers.com/online-study/post/eee/analog-electronics-circuits/1007/step-response-of-an-amplifier (http://www.faadooengineers.com/online-study/post/eee/analog-electronics-circuits/1007/step-response-of-an-amplifier)

In practice, looking at the step response of a circuit that you're developing, repairing or fine tuning reveals a lot of information about the circuit.
For example, the RTB2k shows a non-flat line at a 100Hz ... 1kHz square wave signal. One can translate this into the frequency domain (by math theory, FFT, or just some imagination from experience) - the non-flat line means the frequency response of the RTB2k isn't flat in that ballpark range. Now figure you're building a HiFi, or precision low frequency measurement amplifier or similar. Say you want a flat frequency response from DC to maybe 100kHz - one can use a frequency response analyzer to make a bode plot, or the old school analog engineer just looks at the step response to do a coarse judge of the amplifier while tuning its frequency response.
If the oscilloscope itself has an non-flat step response and you don't know about that, your amplifier will look bad, or if you know, how do you tell the amplifier and the scope response apart?
Even worse, if you use the built-in frequency response analyzer of that particular oscilloscope, it'll give you bad results, as the signal passes through the very same input that has the non-flat step response.

So, with this flaw, the RTB2k (and other scopes with a similar issue) disqualifies itself from precision analog measurements ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 06, 2022, 01:15:55 pm
You are incorrect about frequency response.  Results are measured between two channels. If they both have about the same error, it will cancel.  Either way, an oscilloscope has limited vertical accuracy anyway so don't count on being able to make accurate absolute measurements where it comes to the amplitude of a signal.

A real network analyser has the ability to create an offset calibration in order to improve absolute accuracy.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: capt bullshot on October 06, 2022, 01:33:26 pm
Results are measured between two channels. If they both have about the same error, it will cancel. 
Thanks, that's correct.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 07, 2022, 08:57:23 am
Ok, I took my Rohde & Schwarz RTE1104 oscilloscope from work at the Institute of Physics. I think that everyone will agree that it is a thick caliber, long released, but made very carefully, well thought-out solutions, materials from which it is made of the highest quality and durability, I think that it is more durable than modern, e.g. MXO4, although I have not seen one I won't see him for long so I might be wrong here;). In RTE1000 the problem does not occur - but I looked at the rectangle by enlarging the photo 200mv / DIV and as if you can see something slightly, I do not know if it is not like I screw myself, but in general in my RTB2004-COM4 the problem is as small the same as user Hydron show:
Went and checked all the channels on mine using the internal sig-gen, they don't look as bad as Dave's but there is definitely a change when the attenuator kicks in. In this case I grabbed a capture from each side of the range switch (~150mV, depends on the calibrated gain of each channel) using fine vertical gain adjust. Screenshot windows are due to me being impatient when capturing (they're confirming the previous screenshot).

I seem to recall this coming up for other scopes - was it Siglent that sent out repair kits to those brave enough to open their scopes up?

 I do not have time to play with this issue on other TOP scopes now, due to cancer, I work remotely, but I have a lot of arrears in the implementation of the SIMS spectrometer ion gun project, and the deadline is approaching, the topic should not be left for the last night before the deadline he he: D No matter, going back to the merits , maybe the problem is looking for a hole in the whole thing, and as a wise user said, I quote:
Distortion is mostly visible with 1kHz square wave, so for most measurements -and the fact that one now knows the problem- it isn't a real problem at all.
Now it's important that you know that something like this occurs, and I don't think there is an oscilloscope that is perfect for everything, see what The Signal Path has a dozen, like not several dozen oscilloscopes and these are the selected TOP models such as R&S RTO2044, Tek MSO5 wich is great too and so on. I don't know about you, but apart from RTB2004-COM4, ​​I have Tektronix MDO3054 full opt. with 3GHz SA, Keysight MSOX3104T, DPO2014, TDS3014, TDS784D. I think that apart from beginners, everyone who deals with electronics for serious earnings has this honey, because even if it has accumulated over the years. It is also important to know what the oscilloscope has, what strengths, for which measurements is suitable as gold, and which are better to perform, for example with Keysight. End of pointless issue i think. Knowledge gives a lot to my friend capt_bullshit;) Knowledge is the key power.
MichTRONIC.
GREETINGS.


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 07, 2022, 09:05:49 am
If somebody  has RTM3004 please checked if it occures, RTA4000 is practiclly the same as RTM3000, so we coocked 2 things on one fire he he..
I'm just interesting. If RTM3000 does not have this issue, it means that Rohde&Schwarz, know about it from the past and correct problem IN RTM Series.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on October 07, 2022, 10:32:35 am
it means that Rohde&Schwarz, know about it from the past and correct problem IN RTM Series.

I'm sure this is known for a very long time, maybe since the very first square wave was fed into an oscilloscope.

They probably don't see it as something that needs to be "corrected", just minimized.

Correcting it 100% might be very expensive to do.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 07, 2022, 01:18:31 pm
it means that Rohde&Schwarz, know about it from the past and correct problem IN RTM Series.

I'm sure this is known for a very long time, maybe since the very first square wave was fed into an oscilloscope.

They probably don't see it as something that needs to be "corrected", just minimized.

Correcting it 100% might be very expensive to do.
Do You have RTM3000? Or RTB2004-COM4? Or mayby higher model of R&S scope.
I am in love with Rohde&Schwarz. Dreaming about RTE1024. New models like RTO6 or MXO4 in my opinion lost the impression look like very good etremly high material using RTM2000, RTE1000, RTO1000, RTO2000 and the best RTP which is probably looking older, today trend nevermind if you have tek or keysight or r&s, they will looks the same only logo, and buttons. We had one RTP at work, no RTO6, but RTP has hardware real-time exellent top spectrum anylaser, and can work like MDO4000, or in any possible configuration. For me RTE will be the scope for 10 years. But now I use mix of RTB2004-COM4 + MDO3054 full opt. + 3GHz SA. MDO is slowly, fft in it don;t use, but has Power Anylasis, ADVANCED MATH means that you can create any formula, Have editor in AWG, SA, FastAg with palletes is wrong make, RTB gives me possibility to set color separatly of course the color is not only change color, it is enable color gradation of waveform like false colors with do job. RTB is fast, has user friendly GUI, fantastic multi touch screen of 10 inches, both have 10M. FFT in RTB is great, not everybody knows, that, if  you set e.g. Waveform palette false colors, the FFT also will be like in RTM3000, RTE1000. Pattern generator is very useful for me. Has some filters the RTB? I hav HMO1002 now RTC01002 lowest scope in R&S, and it has filters. But on the other hand RTB2004 does cost much more less then RTM3000-COM4. Limitations are normal :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on October 07, 2022, 01:59:38 pm
it means that Rohde&Schwarz, know about it from the past and correct problem IN RTM Series.

I'm sure this is known for a very long time, maybe since the very first square wave was fed into an oscilloscope.

They probably don't see it as something that needs to be "corrected", just minimized.

Correcting it 100% might be very expensive to do.
Do You have RTM3000? Or RTB2004-COM4? Or mayby higher model of R&S scope.
I am in love with Rohde&Schwarz. Dreaming about RTE1024. New models like RTO6 or MXO4 in my opinion lost the impression look like very good etremly high material using RTM2000, RTE1000, RTO1000, RTO2000 and the best RTP which is probably looking older, today trend nevermind if you have tek or keysight or r&s, they will looks the same only logo, and buttons. We had one RTP at work, no RTO6, but RTP has hardware real-time exellent top spectrum anylaser, and can work like MDO4000, or in any possible configuration. For me RTE will be the scope for 10 years. But now I use mix of RTB2004-COM4 + MDO3054 full opt. + 3GHz SA. MDO is slowly, fft in it don;t use, but has Power Anylasis, ADVANCED MATH means that you can create any formula, Have editor in AWG, SA, FastAg with palletes is wrong make, RTB gives me possibility to set color separatly of course the color is not only change color, it is enable color gradation of waveform like false colors with do job. RTB is fast, has user friendly GUI, fantastic multi touch screen of 10 inches, both have 10M. FFT in RTB is great, not everybody knows, that, if  you set e.g. Waveform palette false colors, the FFT also will be like in RTM3000, RTE1000. Pattern generator is very useful for me. Has some filters the RTB? I hav HMO1002 now RTC01002 lowest scope in R&S, and it has filters. But on the other hand RTB2004 does cost much more less then RTM3000-COM4. Limitations are normal :)

LOL.... :-DD
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on October 07, 2022, 02:51:57 pm
Hello,

RTA4004 with 1 kHz.

Best Regards
egonotto
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: BillyO on October 07, 2022, 03:41:57 pm
So I get the impression reading through this thread a bit that the R&S RTB200X scopes offer less base functionality than the Siglent SDS200X Plus scope and about twice (or more) the price?  Considering the problems this series has, why would someone buy one of these today?  To get a Rohde & Schwarz label?  :-DD

(just being cheeky)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Fungus on October 07, 2022, 05:02:33 pm
Do You have RTM3000? Or RTB2004-COM4? Or mayby higher model of R&S scope.

No.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 07, 2022, 09:26:08 pm
it means that Rohde&Schwarz, know about it from the past and correct problem IN RTM Series.

I'm sure this is known for a very long time, maybe since the very first square wave was fed into an oscilloscope.
I don't think this issue got corrected in the RTM and higher class devices; these likely use a more sophisticated design. I do find it odd though that nobody else stumbled onto this issue until now. Maybe most people just compensated their probes but never bothered to connect a function generator. All in all I'd be interested in an amplitude versus frequency plot to see what the frequency response of the RTB2004 looks like.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Martin72 on October 08, 2022, 12:11:28 am
So I get the impression reading through this thread a bit that the R&S RTB200X scopes offer less base functionality than the Siglent SDS200X Plus scope and about twice (or more) the price?  Considering the problems this series has, why would someone buy one of these today?  To get a Rohde & Schwarz label?  :-DD

(just being cheeky)

5yrs ago it was truly a blast.
Now, today you got several choices.
When you don´t need 10 bit all the time because its "pure" hardware-based, then the SDS2K+ will be the better choice for less money.
The SDS2K HD is no competion against in many ways and rigol have relased cheap 12 bit scopes...
Time for R&S to present a legacy of the true gamechanger...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on October 08, 2022, 07:21:09 am
Tried this from 10Hz to 5kHz, and looks like this.

Edit: Direct BNC-connection from Siglent SDG generator. But of course I don´t really know the generator linearity.

Edit2: Just measured the SDG2042 with a Fluke289, and from 10Hz to 2kHz, the amplitude does not change more than 0,05%, So I think the generator is ok.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 08, 2022, 07:47:59 am
Thanks! Looks like there is a change in the amplitude
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on October 08, 2022, 08:57:07 am
FYI, R&S are dropping off an MXO4 to the lab tomorrow, it fell off the back of a truck, no box, might have a dent or two.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on October 08, 2022, 01:04:53 pm
All in all I'd be interested in an amplitude versus frequency plot to see what the frequency response of the RTB2004 looks like.
I don't know if is the best setup for a DUT,  :)  but with a 330 ohm resistor between IN and OUT, here is what I get (attached). Amplitude with green.
Raw data is in WFM05.txt but you need to change extension to csv.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 08, 2022, 10:26:00 pm
it means that Rohde&Schwarz, know about it from the past and correct problem IN RTM Series.

I'm sure this is known for a very long time, maybe since the very first square wave was fed into an oscilloscope.

They probably don't see it as something that needs to be "corrected", just minimized.




Correcting it 100% might be very expensive to do.
Do You have RTM3000? Or RTB2004-COM4? Or mayby higher model of R&S scope.
I am in love with Rohde&Schwarz. Dreaming about RTE1024. New models like RTO6 or MXO4 in my opinion lost the impression look like very good etremly high material using RTM2000, RTE1000, RTO1000, RTO2000 and the best RTP which is probably looking older, today trend nevermind if you have tek or keysight or r&s, they will looks the same only logo, and buttons. We had one RTP at work, no RTO6, but RTP has hardware real-time exellent top spectrum anylaser, and can work like MDO4000, or in any possible configuration. For me RTE will be the scope for 10 years. But now I use mix of RTB2004-COM4 + MDO3054 full opt. + 3GHz SA. MDO is slowly, fft in it don;t use, but has Power Anylasis, ADVANCED MATH means that you can create any formula, Have editor in AWG, SA, FastAg with palletes is wrong make, RTB gives me possibility to set color separatly of course the color is not only change color, it is enable color gradation of waveform like false colors with do job. RTB is fast, has user friendly GUI, fantastic multi touch screen of 10 inches, both have 10M. FFT in RTB is great, not everybody knows, that, if  you set e.g. Waveform palette false colors, the FFT also will be like in RTM3000, RTE1000. Pattern generator is very useful for me. Has some filters the RTB? I hav HMO1002 now RTC01002 lowest scope in R&S, and it has filters. But on the other hand RTB2004 does cost much more less then RTM3000-COM4. Limitations are normal :)

LOL.... :-DD

The post was written in a sarcastic accent. An adult person should learn about sarcasm, only children are incapable of detecting sarcasm and take such a text seriously. It's not good with you buddy. : D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 08, 2022, 11:07:51 pm
So I get the impression reading through this thread a bit that the R&S RTB200X scopes offer less base functionality than the Siglent SDS200X Plus scope and about twice (or more) the price?  Considering the problems this series has, why would someone buy one of these today?  To get a Rohde & Schwarz label?  :-DD

(just being cheeky)
Siglent has advantages and disadvantages as well as rigol HD. This issue is by no means a disqualifying tragedy. I can write the same about you, that you buy Siglent for the logo, maybe even the supplier added you a T-shirt "Siglent SDS2000 Plus the best oscilloscope of all time." options and features, has a exelllent performance "I have RTE1104 as a business oscilloscope at work, although it happens that I work on Keysgiht or Tektronix. In my opinion, and I have bought a new RTB2004-COM4 at a bargain price for 2 months and I am very pleased , it works perfectly in the home electronics studio I have, it complements MDO3054. Very good combination, I recommend it. You probably did not work on RTB, but a great expert. You are satisfied with Siglent SDS 2000x Plus or HD whatever, I respect it and I do not mock others people who, when buying, made a choice, eg Rigola HD, etc. I consider the subject finished.
Regards,
MichTRONIC
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on October 08, 2022, 11:36:42 pm
it means that Rohde&Schwarz, know about it from the past and correct problem IN RTM Series.

I'm sure this is known for a very long time, maybe since the very first square wave was fed into an oscilloscope.

They probably don't see it as something that needs to be "corrected", just minimized.




Correcting it 100% might be very expensive to do.
Do You have RTM3000? Or RTB2004-COM4? Or mayby higher model of R&S scope.
I am in love with Rohde&Schwarz. Dreaming about RTE1024. New models like RTO6 or MXO4 in my opinion lost the impression look like very good etremly high material using RTM2000, RTE1000, RTO1000, RTO2000 and the best RTP which is probably looking older, today trend nevermind if you have tek or keysight or r&s, they will looks the same only logo, and buttons. We had one RTP at work, no RTO6, but RTP has hardware real-time exellent top spectrum anylaser, and can work like MDO4000, or in any possible configuration. For me RTE will be the scope for 10 years. But now I use mix of RTB2004-COM4 + MDO3054 full opt. + 3GHz SA. MDO is slowly, fft in it don;t use, but has Power Anylasis, ADVANCED MATH means that you can create any formula, Have editor in AWG, SA, FastAg with palletes is wrong make, RTB gives me possibility to set color separatly of course the color is not only change color, it is enable color gradation of waveform like false colors with do job. RTB is fast, has user friendly GUI, fantastic multi touch screen of 10 inches, both have 10M. FFT in RTB is great, not everybody knows, that, if  you set e.g. Waveform palette false colors, the FFT also will be like in RTM3000, RTE1000. Pattern generator is very useful for me. Has some filters the RTB? I hav HMO1002 now RTC01002 lowest scope in R&S, and it has filters. But on the other hand RTB2004 does cost much more less then RTM3000-COM4. Limitations are normal :)

LOL.... :-DD

The post was written in a sarcastic accent. An adult person should learn about sarcasm, only children are incapable of detecting sarcasm and take such a text seriously. It's not good with you buddy. : D

And I thought it was meant to be humorous... Which is not in contradiction to being sarcastic at the same time, mind you ...

Just to make sure which part is sarcastic:
- you love R&S so much you dream about it?
- Your opinion on scopes you mentioned..?

See, it is not so clear...  :-DD

Thank you for your opinion about my mental health... Is as as valid and opinionated as your opinions on scopes.. But thanks anyways.. Good intentions are always welcomed even when a bit misdirected.. And being an adult person is overrated.... Kids have much more fun..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 09, 2022, 12:37:41 am
it means that Rohde&Schwarz, know about it from the past and correct problem IN RTM Series.

I'm sure this is known for a very long time, maybe since the very first square wave was fed into an oscilloscope.

They probably don't see it as something that needs to be "corrected", just minimized.




Correcting it 100% might be very expensive to do.
Do You have RTM3000? Or RTB2004-COM4? Or mayby higher model of R&S scope.
I am in love with Rohde&Schwarz. Dreaming about RTE1024. New models like RTO6 or MXO4 in my opinion lost the impression look like very good etremly high material using RTM2000, RTE1000, RTO1000, RTO2000 and the best RTP which is probably looking older, today trend nevermind if you have tek or keysight or r&s, they will looks the same only logo, and buttons. We had one RTP at work, no RTO6, but RTP has hardware real-time exellent top spectrum anylaser, and can work like MDO4000, or in any possible configuration. For me RTE will be the scope for 10 years. But now I use mix of RTB2004-COM4 + MDO3054 full opt. + 3GHz SA. MDO is slowly, fft in it don;t use, but has Power Anylasis, ADVANCED MATH means that you can create any formula, Have editor in AWG, SA, FastAg with palletes is wrong make, RTB gives me possibility to set color separatly of course the color is not only change color, it is enable color gradation of waveform like false colors with do job. RTB is fast, has user friendly GUI, fantastic multi touch screen of 10 inches, both have 10M. FFT in RTB is great, not everybody knows, that, if  you set e.g. Waveform palette false colors, the FFT also will be like in RTM3000, RTE1000. Pattern generator is very useful for me. Has some filters the RTB? I hav HMO1002 now RTC01002 lowest scope in R&S, and it has filters. But on the other hand RTB2004 does cost much more less then RTM3000-COM4. Limitations are normal :)

LOL.... :-DD

The post was written in a sarcastic accent. An adult person should learn about sarcasm, only children are incapable of detecting sarcasm and take such a text seriously. It's not good with you buddy. : D

And I thought it was meant to be humorous... Which is not in contradiction to being sarcastic at the same time, mind you ...

Just to make sure which part is sarcastic:
- you love R&S so much you dream about it?
- Your opinion on scopes you mentioned..?

See, it is not so clear...  :-DD

Thank you for your opinion about my mental health... Is as as valid and opinionated as your opinions on scopes.. But thanks anyways.. Good intentions are always welcomed even when a bit misdirected.. And being an adult person is overrated.... Kids have much more fun..

Okay, make fun of me, make fun of me. I'm sorry for this statement, it's just that your previous post brings nothing to the topic except that it may be upsetting to some users. Maybe SDS2000X Plus is better than RTB2004-COM4, ​​I don't know, it's hard for me to be objective and honest here, because I don't have or have access to SDS 2000X Plus. I did not choose Rohde & Schwarc for the emblem, only because I like these oscilloscopes and their design, after working on RTE I knew that the manufacturer focuses on the best materials and electronic components which translates into quality, the oscilloscope is well thought out, I also have HMO1002. interesting and useful solutions like Virtual Screen. I assume that this sensational Siglent 2000X HD in a full option configuration costs much more than the RTB. Since he is so cool. Everyone has a budget, a different one will buy something for $ 1500, another one for $ 6000- & 7000, and another one for $ 25000. There is no point in arguing. Apart from R&S I have a Tektronix which is also great, Siglent also but only SDS 1104X-E, in my opinion a very good oscilloscope. I'm sorry if I offended you, What's wrong is not me.
I greet you,
MichTRONIC / neurosurg
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on October 09, 2022, 09:01:06 am
Okay, make fun of me, make fun of me. I'm sorry for this statement, it's just that your previous post brings nothing to the topic except that it may be upsetting to some users. Maybe SDS2000X Plus is better than RTB2004-COM4, ​​I don't know, it's hard for me to be objective and honest here, because I don't have or have access to SDS 2000X Plus. I did not choose Rohde & Schwarc for the emblem, only because I like these oscilloscopes and their design, after working on RTE I knew that the manufacturer focuses on the best materials and electronic components which translates into quality, the oscilloscope is well thought out, I also have HMO1002. interesting and useful solutions like Virtual Screen. I assume that this sensational Siglent 2000X HD in a full option configuration costs much more than the RTB. Since he is so cool. Everyone has a budget, a different one will buy something for $ 1500, another one for $ 6000- & 7000, and another one for $ 25000. There is no point in arguing. Apart from R&S I have a Tektronix which is also great, Siglent also but only SDS 1104X-E, in my opinion a very good oscilloscope. I'm sorry if I offended you, What's wrong is not me.
I greet you,
MichTRONIC / neurosurg

I was jesting a little but wasn't making fun of you, as a person.
If you got offended I am sorry too. It seems I have problem with sarcasm, you have problem detecting humor.. We are not perfect..It's only human. Important thing is to stay civilized and work out the differences..

Just a note, one might argue that your post also added nothing useful to the topic. That is why a slight tangents are allowed in discussion.

RTB2000 is similar and was made to look alike 3000/4000 series but have seriously less capability. FFT on RTB2000 is also not perfect (there is a separate topic discussing just that) and not same as RTM3000 that has spectrum option.

User configurable colors are useful and other scopes have it too. One thing I really like on R&S is user configurable palette for color grading. Especially useful is reverse palette, that shows rare signals most brightly.... I wish more scopes had that feature..
R&S higher end devices are excellent but expensive. Budget always exists, but it is how much you get for your money is what changes all the time... That is why I don't believe in blind brand loyalty.

And yes, you were wrong a bit. And so was I. We both apologized.
I will not pollute this thread anymore with this detour. If you feel anything is unresolved, please let's continue with PM.
Sincerely, all the best.
Sinisa
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Martin72 on October 09, 2022, 07:44:51 pm
Quote
User configurable colors are useful and other scopes have it too.

Yepp, lecroy and siglent for example - rigol not (MSO5000) and this was a visual horror for me.
Four mathchannels - And everyone got the same colour...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 09, 2022, 07:49:06 pm
Okay, make fun of me, make fun of me. I'm sorry for this statement, it's just that your previous post brings nothing to the topic except that it may be upsetting to some users. Maybe SDS2000X Plus is better than RTB2004-COM4, ​​I don't know, it's hard for me to be objective and honest here, because I don't have or have access to SDS 2000X Plus. I did not choose Rohde & Schwarc for the emblem, only because I like these oscilloscopes and their design, after working on RTE I knew that the manufacturer focuses on the best materials and electronic components which translates into quality, the oscilloscope is well thought out, I also have HMO1002. interesting and useful solutions like Virtual Screen. I assume that this sensational Siglent 2000X HD in a full option configuration costs much more than the RTB. Since he is so cool. Everyone has a budget, a different one will buy something for $ 1500, another one for $ 6000- & 7000, and another one for $ 25000. There is no point in arguing. Apart from R&S I have a Tektronix which is also great, Siglent also but only SDS 1104X-E, in my opinion a very good oscilloscope. I'm sorry if I offended you, What's wrong is not me.
I greet you,
MichTRONIC / neurosurg

I was jesting a little but wasn't making fun of you, as a person.
If you got offended I am sorry too. It seems I have problem with sarcasm, you have problem detecting humor.. We are not perfect..It's only human. Important thing is to stay civilized and work out the differences..

Just a note, one might argue that your post also added nothing useful to the topic. That is why a slight tangents are allowed in discussion.

RTB2000 is similar and was made to look alike 3000/4000 series but have seriously less capability. FFT on RTB2000 is also not perfect (there is a separate topic discussing just that) and not same as RTM3000 that has spectrum option.

User configurable colors are useful and other scopes have it too. One thing I really like on R&S is user configurable palette for color grading. Especially useful is reverse palette, that shows rare signals most brightly.... I wish more scopes had that feature..
R&S higher end devices are excellent but expensive. Budget always exists, but it is how much you get for your money is what changes all the time... That is why I don't believe in blind brand loyalty.

And yes, you were wrong a bit. And so was I. We both apologized.
I will not pollute this thread anymore with this detour. If you feel anything is unresolved, please let's continue with PM.
Sincerely, all the best.
Sinisa
Ok my firend It's ok. RTM3000 spectrum also is not perfect, Far away from my mayby raw but exellent SA 3GHz not software enchenced, but fully hardware like second device in other box, but in MDO3000 it uses screen, knobs, buttons from front of an oscilloscope, perfectly is MDO4000, I didn;t see in R&S brochure that RTM3000 or RTA4000 which is practicly the same as RTM3000 (exist vid fron R&S about that), but backing to clue on catalog when is section RTM3000 is only HD emblemat, since RTE1000 is HD mode and Multi-domain like in Tektronix MDO4000 which as you knoq are powerful features. No I have from work Tektronix Series 5, it is sad that the Tektronix company left SA only in Tektroni MDO34 Serier3, but not me should judgee it.
Siglent SDS2000X Plus or HD also has problems, this is level of the scopes for us expensive and we are angry, but on RTO2044 there is no bug existing. But for RTB2004 we pay max $6000 - $7000, for RTO1044 fot e.g. also exellent $20 000. :)

I was exaited and planning to buy RTE1024 with full opt from eBay, but my brother calm me down, and give smart tip, you have two good scopes MDO3000 + RTB2004 both with full options, great performance, and features. FFT in my opinion is great. Siglent also has problems, it is important not to drop out the scope stright to the dumpster beccause of some shortcomings if you at the moment somebody can't afford a level up scope in the list, for me amputatuon due to cancer close my budget to RTB2004-COM4, for RTE1000 (why R&S because i like they GUI and design, and perfection, but other scopes also are on the list for consider) but now all money I have to collect to buy a new (no new like brand new - used :) ) car, with automatic becaure of amputation (left leg under the knee). I don;t cry on that, I'm also a MD doctor, neurosurgeon, see at work before get cancer meny tragic horrifing cases, for e.g. when brain tumon has a little child. In my opinion, children should not be ill, children should be happy, laugh and play, and not suffer in the hospital. But what is the world like? Sorry for the philosophical insertion, somehow it took me to think he he :)

Best wishes,
Michael,
neurosurg
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 09, 2022, 08:01:43 pm
Quote
User configurable colors are useful and other scopes have it too.

Yepp, lecroy and siglent for example - rigol not (MSO5000) and this was a visual horror for me.
Four mathchannels - And everyone got the same colour...
Mayby you mentioned that, is from RTE1000  and models up :D
Please for you pictures. Do you have the same wide possibility to define colors in your Siglent or LeCroy? :)
See pictures.
I attache, also interesting mesuerments of BW of RTB2000, and Tek Series 5.
Enjoy for everyone.
Best wisches,
Michael.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Martin72 on October 09, 2022, 08:09:44 pm
On siglent/lecroy you can define the colour of all traces(zoom, math, all channels, and so on) in a "free" manner (colour palette).

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 09, 2022, 08:16:27 pm
First pic - my scope as I get info form R&S Vendor dealer that is highly end, The oscilloscope, for example, is much better balanced, math has been there before, but a lot has been done. So for me there is no tragedy, I am still very happy.

A the end FFT in RTB2004-COM4, for me compare to cost are had to made ($3850) for a brand new plus
transport bag for free as a gift.I think I will leave the oscilloscope unless you disgust me so much that I have to give it back he he: D

Best wishes,
Michael.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 09, 2022, 08:18:35 pm
On siglent/lecroy you can define the colour of all traces(zoom, math, all channels, and so on) in a "free" manner (colour palette).
% too?
The color define is well the same wide.:)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on October 09, 2022, 08:26:19 pm
On siglent/lecroy you can define the colour of all traces(zoom, math, all channels, and so on) in a "free" manner (colour palette).
% too?
The color define is well the same wide.:)
From a Siglent webpage (easier to find than the screenshots posted before)

(https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/overview2.png)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: weekendEE on October 10, 2022, 05:16:05 pm
Looking at the MXO 4 options I see there is a hardware option for "Mixed signal option for R&S®MXO4" with the description "Mixed signal, for R&S®MXO4 oscilloscopes, 16 channels, 5Gsa/s (hardware option)"

Upon further googling it appears this package is just two 8 channel logic probes, do you all think that the cheaper RT-ZL03 probes could be used instead of dropping 3,000 dollars for this option?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 10, 2022, 08:19:35 pm
Looking at the MXO 4 options I see there is a hardware option for "Mixed signal option for R&S®MXO4" with the description "Mixed signal, for R&S®MXO4 oscilloscopes, 16 channels, 5Gsa/s (hardware option)"

Upon further googling it appears this package is just two 8 channel logic probes, do you all think that the cheaper RT-ZL03 probes could be used instead of dropping 3,000 dollars for this option?
No. The  RT-ZL03 uses a low cost ribbon cable + connector while the higher end oscilloscopes use a wide HDMI connector.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: edavid on October 10, 2022, 09:06:53 pm
Looking at the MXO 4 options I see there is a hardware option for "Mixed signal option for R&S®MXO4" with the description "Mixed signal, for R&S®MXO4 oscilloscopes, 16 channels, 5Gsa/s (hardware option)"

Upon further googling it appears this package is just two 8 channel logic probes, do you all think that the cheaper RT-ZL03 probes could be used instead of dropping 3,000 dollars for this option?

The package probably includes a software option code, as well as the probes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 11, 2022, 08:16:56 am
On siglent/lecroy you can define the colour of all traces(zoom, math, all channels, and so on) in a "free" manner (colour palette).
% too?
The color define is well the same wide.:)
From a Siglent webpage (easier to find than the screenshots posted before)

(https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/overview2.png)


I don't have time to play with colors so deep in this issue, but on RTE1000 also is a App for fully free whatever you want on colors. Look carfully, is possibility to set / define color for Source: e.g. C1 (Channel one) and so on and so on.
And the edition is nearly simillar.
Pointless discution. :)

Best wishes,
Miichael.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on October 12, 2022, 12:08:53 am
Looking at the MXO 4 options I see there is a hardware option for "Mixed signal option for R&S®MXO4" with the description "Mixed signal, for R&S®MXO4 oscilloscopes, 16 channels, 5Gsa/s (hardware option)"

Upon further googling it appears this package is just two 8 channel logic probes, do you all think that the cheaper RT-ZL03 probes could be used instead of dropping 3,000 dollars for this option?
No. The  RT-ZL03 uses a low cost ribbon cable + connector while the higher end oscilloscopes use a wide HDMI connector.

This is correct - the RT-ZL03 connector is primarily for the RTB scopes, while the MXO4 (and most other R&S scopes) uses the HDMI-like RT-ZL04 (see photo)

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: weekendEE on October 12, 2022, 02:49:37 am
Ah interesting thank you for the clarification! Really hoping there might be a full package promo on the horizon for the MXO4, my add ons cart has stacked up to a significant amount.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on October 12, 2022, 05:36:01 am
Ah interesting thank you for the clarification! Really hoping there might be a full package promo on the horizon for the MXO4, my add ons cart has stacked up to a significant amount.

Not that I am aware of. I was told that due to component supply issues, production is tight, so that might impact any deals. But I'd be surprised if your dealer doesn't have the leeway to bundle some options to get the sale.
I now have my MXO4 in the lab ready for unboxing, much to the chagrin of the local HQ who don't have one  ;D

Also, I was reminded that the RTB2000 is rather an old model, so, umm...  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on October 12, 2022, 06:04:57 pm
I now have my MXO4 in the lab ready for unboxing, much to the chagrin of the local HQ who don't have one  ;D

Only very special people get one of the first MXO4s  :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Martin72 on October 12, 2022, 07:06:22 pm
Hey, I´m very special too... 8)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on October 12, 2022, 07:17:31 pm
I now have my MXO4 in the lab ready for unboxing, much to the chagrin of the local HQ who don't have one  ;D

Only very special people get one of the first MXO4s  :)

Good to know that people in Australia local HQ are not special...   >:D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on October 12, 2022, 08:22:14 pm
I now have my MXO4 in the lab ready for unboxing, much to the chagrin of the local HQ who don't have one  ;D

Only very special people get one of the first MXO4s  :)

Good to know that people in Australia local HQ are not special...   >:D
LOL - they're important too - but we wanted to make sure Dave would get one ASAP  ;D

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on October 12, 2022, 08:33:58 pm
I now have my MXO4 in the lab ready for unboxing, much to the chagrin of the local HQ who don't have one  ;D

Only very special people get one of the first MXO4s  :)

Good to know that people in Australia local HQ are not special...   >:D
LOL - they're important too - but we wanted to make sure Dave would get one ASAP  ;D

-Rich

I know, I know,  but it was too good to pass up!! ( Sorry @pdenisowski, no hard feelings, I hope!)

Take care Rich!!
Sinisa
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on October 12, 2022, 08:34:39 pm
I now have my MXO4 in the lab ready for unboxing, much to the chagrin of the local HQ who don't have one  ;D

Only very special people get one of the first MXO4s  :)

Good to know that people in Australia local HQ are not special...   >:D
LOL - they're important too - but we wanted to make sure Dave would get one ASAP  ;D

-Rich
Take care Rich!!
Sinisa
You too :-+

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on October 12, 2022, 08:36:11 pm
Too many things (aka competitor's new babies) currently going on on EEVBLOG for R&S to spend time entertaining their AUS HQ people...
I genuinely wish I could make things happen that fast :palm: - this has been in progress for some time. 

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on October 12, 2022, 08:59:02 pm
I know, I know,  but it was too good to pass up!! ( Sorry @pdenisowski, no hard feelings, I hope!)

None whatsoever :) We're all one big happy family here at R&S.

(Seriously - it's a great place to work)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 12, 2022, 09:12:24 pm
I now have my MXO4 in the lab ready for unboxing, much to the chagrin of the local HQ who don't have one  ;D

Only very special people get one of the first MXO4s  :)

Good to know that people in Australia local HQ are not special...   >:D
LOL - they're important too - but we wanted to make sure Dave would get one ASAP  ;D
Hmm, don't get Aussies or Kiwis started on support from overseas companies. It can be a very sensitive subject.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tv84 on October 12, 2022, 09:18:11 pm
Gentlemen, beware! R&S staff is sponsoring the derailing of this thread!

BTW, kudos to both R&S members for participating in the forum. Truly enrich the forum and increases my respect for the R&S brand.  :-+
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: balnazzar on October 12, 2022, 09:46:13 pm
I now have my MXO4 in the lab ready for unboxing, much to the chagrin of the local HQ who don't have one  ;D

Only very special people get one of the first MXO4s  :)

Only very special people get one, no matter when. Period  ::)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 13, 2022, 04:10:27 am
Too many things (aka competitor's new babies) currently going on on EEVBLOG for R&S to spend time entertaining their AUS HQ people...
I genuinely wish I could make things happen that fast :palm: - this has been in progress for some time. 

-Rich
Rich there are rumors that the MXO4 is going to replace the RTE1000, is that true?
Secondly, I have a request, I do not want to take up your time, but please direct me where I should ask for RTE loan for tests, I guess there will be no problem with that?
Dave mentioned in the post above that the RTB2000 is an old oscilloscope, I do not know where the campaign for this model is from, I am extremely happy with it, instead of buying RTM3004-COM4, ​​I preferred to spend much more money on RTE1024 with full opt.

Thank you very much,
Yours sincerely,

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rich@RohdeScopesUSA on October 13, 2022, 10:48:44 pm
Too many things (aka competitor's new babies) currently going on on EEVBLOG for R&S to spend time entertaining their AUS HQ people...
I genuinely wish I could make things happen that fast :palm: - this has been in progress for some time. 

-Rich
Rich there are rumors that the MXO4 is going to replace the RTE1000, is that true?
Secondly, I have a request, I do not want to take up your time, but please direct me where I should ask for RTE loan for tests, I guess there will be no problem with that?
Dave mentioned in the post above that the RTB2000 is an old oscilloscope, I do not know where the campaign for this model is from, I am extremely happy with it, instead of buying RTM3004-COM4, ​​I preferred to spend much more money on RTE1024 with full opt.

Thank you very much,
Yours sincerely,

Michael
Hi Michael - The MXO 4 doesn’t replace the RTE.  The RTE still does a number of things the MXO doesn’t (e.g. certain trigger/decodes, additional analysis, it's Windows-based, etc).  But the RTE is one of our older platforms and as we’ve said all along, the MXO 4 is the “first of a new generation” of scopes  ;D 

With all that said, if you don't need all the analysis capabilities of a Windows platform, the MXO 4 is amazing (IMHO) and I wouldn't hesitate in a second to buy it versus a RTE. 

Hope this helps.

-Rich
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Martin72 on October 13, 2022, 11:06:12 pm
Gentlemen, wouldn´t it be good to start a new thread instead using the RTB2000 thread for a different scope... ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: jjoonathan on October 14, 2022, 01:13:33 am
Yes, but this thread has a killer name and that really changes the game  ;)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Martin72 on October 14, 2022, 09:41:26 pm
"Another new killer scope in town"....
Problem solved. ;)
BTW, with an entry-price of appx 9000€ (incl.VAT), the scope is more a "niche product" for hobbyists.
Another true game changer would be a new model in the RTB2000 class.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on October 14, 2022, 10:28:38 pm
"Another new killer scope in town"....
Last one had it's lunch eaten by SDS2104X Plus.  :P

SDS2104X HD might eat another.......
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Martin72 on October 14, 2022, 10:54:52 pm
No doubts about it in both cases, read my comment on the batronix site concerning the HD...
But it´s the R&S thread here.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 15, 2022, 12:31:49 pm
"Another new killer scope in town"....
Last one had it's lunch eaten by SDS2104X
Keep on dreaming... The user interface of the RTB2004 (and related models) alone is several levels better.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on October 15, 2022, 01:59:47 pm
I read the review on Batronix of the HD, and it doesn't seem to be too useful or saying anything about real world measurement scenarios.
Also what wonders me is the big black bezel they put around the screen. Such a waste. Why not put a bigger screen ? Maby 11" or so wouldn't fit.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on October 15, 2022, 07:47:04 pm
"Another new killer scope in town"....
Last one had it's lunch eaten by SDS2104X
Keep on dreaming... The user interface of the RTB2004 (and related models) alone is several levels better.

What does that even mean? RT2000 UI is nice, but it is also about personal preferences.
And even if that was true, it didn't help with sales until price was dropped to more realistic levels...

One fun nugget said here was that RTB2000 is "quite old platform". It has been  5 years now that it was released if I remember correctly. It took almost 2 years to stabilize featureset and debug. So in my mind this scope is reliable product for cca 3 years.  Is this a "sign of times" of a short lived products like smartphones?  I hope product lifecycles won't become as short as with consumer devices..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 15, 2022, 08:36:20 pm
"Another new killer scope in town"....
Last one had it's lunch eaten by SDS2104X
Keep on dreaming... The user interface of the RTB2004 (and related models) alone is several levels better.

What does that even mean? RT2000 UI is nice, but it is also about personal preferences.
Not just personal preference. It is about the configurability and feature set of the UI which makes the oscilloscope more efficient and effective to use. Like having hotkeys for functions you use commonly. Or things like on-screen annotations that can help documenting parts of a signal without needing to write oodles of text for a description and/or do image editing seperately. And let's not forget sizable windows. Overall the UI of the RTB2004 has been well designed and implemented. And that is just the UI aspect...

Quote
One fun nugget said here was that RTB2000 is "quite old platform". It has been  5 years now that it was released if I remember correctly. It took almost 2 years to stabilize featureset and debug. So in my mind this scope is reliable product for cca 3 years.  Is this a "sign of times" of a short lived products like smartphones?  I hope product lifecycles won't become as short as with consumer devices..
Let's see what happens first. I can imagine though that R&S would like to update the RTB2004 to use the same logic probes. IMHO the current ribbon cable ones are a remnant of the Hameg days. Personally I'm not a fan of ribbon cables anyway; they are quite fragile.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 16, 2022, 08:59:55 pm
Gentlemen, wouldn´t it be good to start a new thread instead using the RTB2000 thread for a different scope... ;)

Hit the jakcpoot
Quote
Martin72
)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on October 17, 2022, 03:10:23 pm
Gentlemen, wouldn´t it be good to start a new thread instead using the RTB2000 thread for a different scope... ;)

There's already an MXO4 thread (started on launch day, no less)  :)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-picture-on-eevblog-of-the-new-rs-mxo4-series-oscilloscope- (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-picture-on-eevblog-of-the-new-rs-mxo4-series-oscilloscope-))/
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on October 17, 2022, 03:27:36 pm
Let's see what happens first. I can imagine though that R&S would like to update the RTB2004 to use the same logic probes. IMHO the current ribbon cable ones are a remnant of the Hameg days. Personally I'm not a fan of ribbon cables anyway; they are quite fragile.

I can't speak for the product line, but the only two scopes that use the ribbon cable connectors are the RTC and RTB -- all of our newer scopes use the HDMI-style probes.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on October 17, 2022, 09:25:09 pm
Let's see what happens first. I can imagine though that R&S would like to update the RTB2004 to use the same logic probes. IMHO the current ribbon cable ones are a remnant of the Hameg days. Personally I'm not a fan of ribbon cables anyway; they are quite fragile.

I can't speak for the product line, but the only two scopes that use the ribbon cable connectors are the RTC and RTB -- all of our newer scopes use the HDMI-style probes.

Is it change something? I think that probes on RTB2000 send signals also withut problems
I compare with driend with RTM.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on October 18, 2022, 05:17:05 am
Is it change something? I think that probes on RTB2000 send signals also without problems
I compare with friend with RTM.

I've used the ribbon style cables extensively with my RTB and personally I've never had any issues with them.  They're definitely a lot more robust than the cables that came with some of the PC/USB-based logic analyzers I have :)   

I can check with the developers, but I think one advantage of the newer style is the scope-side connectors are physically smaller and take up less space on the front of the instrument.  If you look at both styles (RT-ZL03 and RTZL04 - attached again) next to an MXO4, you'll see it would be tough to have two of the older-style connectors on the front panel.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on October 18, 2022, 08:34:23 am
Well, having to pull on the cables themselves is a big no where it comes to ribbon cables. Even inside more expensive PCs (where ribbon cables are not disconnected very often) you'll find the ribbon cable connectors are fitted with pulling tabs / cords so you pull the connector instead of the cable.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: coppice on October 18, 2022, 06:18:44 pm
This thread has gone on and on since 2017. Shouldn't the title change to "Re: scope nearing EOL from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004"
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Martin72 on October 18, 2022, 06:34:57 pm
EOL after only 5yrs...?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on October 18, 2022, 07:36:53 pm
This thread has gone on and on since 2017. Shouldn't the title change to "Re: scope nearing EOL from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004"

Absolutely not.  I can assure you that the RTB is nowhere near EOL :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on November 05, 2022, 08:52:25 am
Is it change something? I think that probes on RTB2000 send signals also without problems
I compare with friend with RTM.

I've used the ribbon style cables extensively with my RTB and personally I've never had any issues with them.  They're definitely a lot more robust than the cables that came with some of the PC/USB-based logic analyzers I have :)   

I can check with the developers, but I think one advantage of the newer style is the scope-side connectors are physically smaller and take up less space on the front of the instrument.  If you look at both styles (RT-ZL03 and RTZL04 - attached again) next to an MXO4, you'll see it would be tough to have two of the older-style connectors on the front panel.

On front is very good, but like in the RTM3000 on the side is less comfortable i think, and front panel of RTM looks with a lot of pins aaround the gen bnc connector makes a mess, if there be hdmi logic connectors all looks professjonal and estetic like in the RTB2000. In my MDO3000 they have their standard with one small connector on the front for one logic probe for 16ch, but I prefered yours, scopes you made are the pice of art, in loved your scopes, are made with giving form enginerr 100% and even mmore, and it is visible :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on November 05, 2022, 09:25:37 am
This thread has gone on and on since 2017. Shouldn't the title change to "Re: scope nearing EOL from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004"

Absolutely not.  I can assure you that the RTB is nowhere near EOL :)
Can You tell me with place is occupated by MXO4 is it better then RTO2000?, better then RTP084, or better than RTO6?
I noticed that the buttons in RTO2000 and RTP084 are mayby for me better done than in MXO4 and RTO6.
Today scopes slowly looks like new PC monitor, MXO4 is great scope , but I prefer RTO2000 hope R&S will always the scopes with old style and tradition in their offer.
I take RTO2014 from Physics Institute where I work as apparatus electronics and science worker. Looks like MXO4 has a little bit bigger screen.
It is hard to compare by photos. I will check it later.
(https://scontent.fwaw3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/313247773_8188341514572879_146885597489471246_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg_s1080x2048&_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=Y3heU0zp94MAX8DSNXJ&tn=5iFuX9N07i7ZwfCZ&_nc_ht=scontent.fwaw3-1.fna&oh=00_AfCSkhmtW_KhYL3uYW0cVFM2DXKoqJpMRH4r8cWZH39iEw&oe=636AB45A)

Regreds,
Michael.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 05, 2022, 05:26:09 pm
Hello,

I have a strange thing on my RTB2004; wondering whether others also have this or whether I am just mistaken. I don’t think I came across this anywhere on the forum (but there is a lot here).

So, the thing is: when I turn the logic signals on (or select one of them for triggering), then the noise I see on the analog channels goes up considerably (orders of magnitude). Both visually and in terms of measurement. And it also happens when I use low-sensitivity settings.

I made some screenshots that illustrate the issue. The analog channel is always connected with a 50 Ohm terminator plug (so no input signal).

Screenshot SRC31: with the most sensitive (1mV/DIV) channel setting, without digital channels activated.

Screenshot SRC32: everything identical but with some digital channels activated.

Screenshot SRC33: Now with a less sensitive setting (1V/DIV), without digital channels activated.

Screenshot SRC34: And once more, everything identical but with some digital channels activated.

Anyone?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: tautech on November 05, 2022, 05:41:00 pm
Sanity check is always the Default button.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on November 05, 2022, 06:41:14 pm
So, the thing is: when I turn the logic signals on (or select one of them for triggering), then the noise I see on the analog channels goes up considerably (orders of magnitude). Both visually and in terms of measurement. And it also happens when I use low-sensitivity settings.

Probably the difference of Sample and HiRes mode. HiRes is not active with digital channels.

I agree.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on November 05, 2022, 06:59:31 pm
@PeDre & 2N3055,

Yes, you are right! I already had the feeling I was overlooking something. Taking another look at the screenshots, I indeed see that when the digital channel is turned on, the scope greys out the "High Res." indication on the top line. (It did not jump back, however, to sample mode, which explains that when I again disabled the digital channel, the scope went back to HighRes.)

Thanks for the swift replies!

@Tautech: Yes, should have returned the device to its default settings (called 'Preset' on this device). Just returned from a double intercontinental trip, must have been tired. Next time ;-)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on November 27, 2022, 11:16:55 pm
I'll post it here, maybe it'll be of interest to someone. I was experimenting with the bandwidth of RTB2004-COM4.
My oscilloscope had a bandwidth of 300MHz at the time of purchase.
On the Ch1 channel I gave a sine wave RF signal from the prototype board, the heart of which is contained in this board brandname, namely ADF4351-PLL. It is a phase-locked loop module with integrated key operation, wide range voltage supply, and good human-computer interaction interface made on ARM STM32. The module can realize the frequency output of 35MHz-4.4GHz, basic functions such as point frequency, frequency sweep, frequency hopping. I found that the most common maximum bandwidth of the RTB2002/RTB2004 is one hundred megahertz. So on ch1 I applied RF signal with f=100MHz. Look at the spectrum of it.
]
Kind regards ,

Michael
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on November 28, 2022, 12:35:05 am
That looks perfectly fine for an ADF4351 output; I strongly recall seeing a similar spectrum from my own board. The ADF4351 outputs a square wave which also has a significant amount of even harmonics. Besides that, you will want to use 50 Ohm termination at the oscilloscope's side to -somewhat- properly terminate the signal coming from the ADF4351. It would be interesting to see how flat the response is for spectrum analysis. I'm surprised the RTB2004 allows to set the FFT frequency beyond 300MHz.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on November 28, 2022, 09:27:23 am
nctnico, could You tell mw, is it wotrh to sell RTB2004-COM4 300MHz, almost new 3msc I have it and It is fantastic scope, beside of that I have Tek MDO3054 - full option - 3GHz bandwidth real hardware spectrum anylaser. Back to the question, is it worth to sell this two scopes and buy RTM3004-COM4 500MHz ?
I  mentionded that Tek in fact complement the RTB2004-COM4 300MHz giving Power Anyylasis app. 500MHz bw. limit and an important thing REAL HARDWARE very good spectrum  anylaser having a bandwidth up to 3GHz, far away from even 1GHz model of RTM, second guestion, what do you thing about RTM spectrum anyl, ?

Thanks for any advice.

Regereds,

Michael.
 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on November 28, 2022, 11:47:18 am
In general I prefer to use a real spectrum analyser for spectrum analysis. I use my oscilloscopes only for doing spectrum analysis on low frequency signals (say below 1MHz).

Whether selling your oscilloscopes is a good idea depends on what price you can sell them for. I wouldn't expect to get anywhere near the list price. Count on needing to add extra money if you want to buy the RTM3004.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Neurosurg on November 29, 2022, 01:36:10 am
I was aiming at RTE1024 heh :)
There's one on ebay for $9k.
RTM3004, apart from programming spectrum analysis, which could be in RTB, but it is known about giving new extra tools to the model above.

And RTE1000 is a completely different story, only expensive :(
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Ecogeek on March 13, 2023, 04:39:57 am
With the R&S RTB2002, RTB2004 I needed to check the Frequency counter and Generator accuracy.
I purchased a Leo Bodnar Electronics MiniGPS 10 Mhz Reference clock. I used the output to connect to one channel 50ohm feedthrough termination and used this as the reference for the RTB trigger and counter measurement.

The second input was connected to the Generator output of similar amplitude and set the frequency to minimal difference. The specification of the RTB is +/-2.5PPM which should give at 10Mhz +/- 25Hz range. The frequency readout of the Trigger Counter was within 5digits +/-20Hz.
After a bit of trial and error, I determined the RTB was approximately +15Hz, and stable within 1Hz over a couple of daily temperature and power cycles.   This was very similar to "Peter's" +12MHz. So it would seem adjusting the RTB timebase should be possible to achieve +/ 2Hz short-term calibration checking against the GPS reference.
I also found that the Generator Frequency can be adjusted and displayed (when below 10MHz) to within 0.1Hz i.e. 9.99999855Mhz, above 10Mhz seems as if this is not so easy as while you are able to input the figures and Enter, the display is rounded to nearest 1Hz i.e. 10.000001.  As the RTB reference was measuring high the generator needed to be lower to compensate to give zero or slow movements between traces, so it was an easy task to accurately measure the frequency error to with 0.1Hz.

Using the R&S remote LAN interface and sending "DEV:MENU ADJ" on the SCPI device control, I was presented with the Frequency Adjust option menu on the RTB screen.  The default on mine was also "128". It appears the sensitivity is about 1.33Hz per unit, so I set the TCXO offset for 117 and pressed SAVE, a lower number decreases the reference frequency.  I was then presented with an RTB timebase frequency error <1Hz using my 10Mhz GPS-derived reference. 

Thanks for the previous poster Peter for the "undocumented" feature allowing the "simple" procedure to fine-trim the RTB timebase (and generator output frequency) within <0.1PPM. It would appear from the factory they are within the +/-2.5PPM spec so are not adjusted from default to give their best.
The remote frequency trigger reading  "TCO:RES:FREQ?" can also give an extra digit to 6 (a single Hz below 10Mhz  or 6 digits above).

I'll monitor the long-term frequency drift with the GPS 10Mhz reference and adjust the RTB as necessary, hopefully, easily maintaining the <0.1PPM frequency accuracy.

 
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: MaxZ on August 03, 2023, 03:00:49 pm
I'm facing a few issues around the function generator. I'm using it to control a vibration generator, which makes the following behavior much more noticeable than with purely electronic setups. Still, I'd think that it's not completely irrelevant for other use cases than mine.

First of all, enabling or disabling the FFT interrupts the function generator for about a second. Lacking a second scope, I haven't been able to check whether the output jumps to zero for that time or what it does. In any case, the mechanical setup is not happy because it's a sharp jump.
Similar issue for the bode plot utility: the transition from one frequency to the next one seems to be discontinuous; causing - once again - severe shocks in my mechanical setup, to the point where I can't use this feature. Is it possible to adjust it, such that the transition happens at zero crossing f.ex.? Similar to the wobble feature of the function generator, which is continuous as well.
I seem to remember other cases where changes to the function generator setting caused jumps in the output signal. I understand that this cannot always be avoided but I hope it can at least be somewhat improved.


Kind regards,
Max
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Miles Teg on August 15, 2023, 01:56:45 pm
Hello,

I'm wondering why on my RTB the I2C the data decoding starts to fail and decode on 5bits only.  :-//

[attach=1]

[attach=2]

[attach=3]

Have you any advice?
Thanks
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Darkover on August 29, 2023, 05:05:09 pm

I just found some realy strange behavier of my RTB2004:

http://www.criseis.ruhr.de/rs/Channel3.mov (http://www.criseis.ruhr.de/rs/Channel3.mov)
http://www.criseis.ruhr.de/rs/Channel4.mov (http://www.criseis.ruhr.de/rs/Channel4.mov)

I this a bug in the firmware? Or is something broken?

The offset of CH3 and CH4 is moving when changing the attenuation.
It did not happen at CH1 or CH2 and it survives a power cycle.

On the video you see it in current mode, but it also happens in voltage mode
when switching between 2V/div and 1V/div with 10:1 probe select. When 1:1
is selcted it happend between 200mV and 100mV.
It also happens between 500mV and 200mV. 500mV and 100mV are the same.
So I think there is something broken for the 200mV offset calibration,
but the same for two channel?

Olaf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Darkover on August 29, 2023, 05:52:19 pm

I started self calibration and it start at 0% and works up to 25% and than happens an error
with CH1. Hm...but CH1 is working.

If I start it gain it starts at 25% and stops. Even a powercycle did not help.

So I think I have to talk with the servicepeople of R&S because it is in warranty!
[attachimg=1]

Olaf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Darkover on August 29, 2023, 06:20:53 pm

I agree with you. Very close with the exception that self allignment is not runing at my scope.

However, I open a service request and we will see what happens.

Olaf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on August 29, 2023, 06:51:05 pm
I haven't looked at the videos yet (on mobile hotspot right now) but given it's 2 channels at the same time, probably not the same issue I had (faulty VGA on one front-end). Maybe worth trying looking at the alignment log though, and also seeing what results you get on FW 2.000 or earlier.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Darkover on August 29, 2023, 07:01:28 pm

I don't have any alignment log because the alignment did not run. It stops at 25%.
I pushed "Factory Default" and start "Self alignment" again. After that the Self alignment starts
again at 0%, but it stops at 25% and reported an error with CH1.

That is strange by themself, because I think CH1 is working without any problem!

I don't like the idea to downgrade the firmware and it is hard to believe that R&S will allow it,
because at the moment there is 2.4 installed.
So I think I can not do anything than  :'( and wait what the service people will say tomorow.

Olaf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on August 29, 2023, 08:23:53 pm
FW downgrade is possible without any issues. You may be able to get the alignment log even though it doesn't complete successfully - I think I got it via USB (comes up as a storage device, log ends up in one of the folders). FW update can also be done via USB (drop the file into the FW folder, and then use the GUI to start the up/downgrade).

When I talked to UK service they were pretty useless (ignored it when I pointed out that I'd had a discussion with the R&S rep about getting it fixed under warranty as a good will gesture - was only slightly out of warranty) and wanted more money that I paid for the whole scope to do a "fixed price repair". Didn't push or escalate it as I had basically confirmed the cause of the issue at that point and was highly confident I could fix it myself (replacing the VGA did the trick as I expected).
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Darkover on August 30, 2023, 01:32:29 pm

Today there was an email from R&S

> When I talked to UK service they were pretty useless

Probably you are right. :palm:
They agreed that my scope is under warranty, but they did not talk with private customer!
A strange world. What did they think what kind of people are buying an RTB2004 for fun?
It is true that I am a private owner, but I am also an employe at a huge company with
more than 180 developer and I guess they will talk with many of them in future. >:D
A bad reputation can be very expensive for them in long term.

However, so now I start to talk with Batronix    --->Batronix - Innovative Tools. Excellent Service.
We will see how excellent there service will be.   :popcorn:

Olaf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on August 30, 2023, 02:37:20 pm
Interesting - I didn't have any issues as a private individual other than being asked to pay a big-corp repair fee. Was 3 years ago though, maybe they've done a keysight and given the middle finger to non-business customers in the meantime? (Since they did that I've avoided KS for work purchases too :P)
I would say it's not unreasonable asking you to go via Batronix in the first instance, but ONLY if they would still help if the distributor was unable or unwilling to. In my case I bought the scope in the US so it was going to be very tricky getting service from the distributor.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on August 30, 2023, 03:07:08 pm
I had a very good experience with the help of Batronix for RTB2K scope as a private person.
Also for thechnical questions directly in Gloris they answer me promptly.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Darkover on August 31, 2023, 02:42:02 pm

> I had a very good experience with the help of Batronix for RTB2K scope as a private person.

I think this is true, because they ask me to send them the scope.

However it is a little bit sad, because I would bet that nothing is broken and it only needs
a calibration or some kind of brain washing.

Olaf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on August 31, 2023, 09:12:19 pm

> I had a very good experience with the help of Batronix for RTB2K scope as a private person.

I think this is true, because they ask me to send them the scope.

However it is a little bit sad, because I would bet that nothing is broken and it only needs
a calibration or some kind of brain washing.

Olaf
The good part is that your scope will get a free calibration at least...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: gdr771 on September 12, 2023, 03:18:56 pm
Newark is offering the RTB2K-COM4 package for $3898.36:

https://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4p99/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745 (https://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4p99/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/08AC3745),

and the RTB-BNDL for $4695:

https://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-bndl/oscilloscope-300mhz-lcd-color/dp/57AK8667 (https://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb-bndl/oscilloscope-300mhz-lcd-color/dp/57AK8667)

But it seems the COM4 package contains every possible option, while the BNDL package might not have the MSO option, depending which part of the product page is to be believed.  Also, the US and Canadian Rohde & Schwarz sites do not list the MSO option under the BNDL package description.

Does anyone know the actual contents of the COM4 and BNDL packages?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: RBBVNL9 on September 12, 2023, 03:32:41 pm
Hi,

Quote
Does anyone know the actual contents of the COM4 and BNDL packages?

Attached is a 2021 document describing the bundles (aty least, the COM4 bundle). I assume the content of the bundles has not changed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Darkover on September 13, 2023, 05:32:28 am

I think 4000Euro is the normal price for an RTB with all bells and whistles in Europe.
That means all options, 300Mhz, two logic probes and four ugly analog probes.

If I memorize it right it is also possible to buy it much cheaper if your are still a student
at university, because the are special education sales.

Olaf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kerouanton on September 13, 2023, 07:29:13 am

I think 4000Euro is the normal price for an RTB with all bells and whistles in Europe.
That means all options, 300Mhz, two logic probes and four ugly analog probes.

If I memorize it right it is also possible to buy it much cheaper if your are still a student
at university, because the are special education sales.


Yes, it's more or less the normal price. However it's interesting to see the differences between countries:
At conrad.ch the RTB2K-COM4 is CHF 3'438.25 (9% discount, normal price CHF 3'760.40)
At conrad.de the RTB2K-COM4 is EUR 4'200.84
At conrad.fr the RTB2K-COM4 is EUR 7'387.50  :scared:

Those prices are without VAT to help comparison.

According to xe.com, today CHF 3'428.25 is EUR 3'589.28, that's a EUR 611.56 price increase for Germany and EUR 3'798.22 increase for France  :scared:  :wtf: :palm:

And I'm *sure* that those scopes are similar, same  Part No.: 1333.1005P99 and EAN: 4250138105306 on those three sites, and same quantity remaining : 23 units in stock.

Beware, the EDU versions aren't fully loaded, it's often 70MHz scopes with the minimal options, so not really worth buying...

Refs:
Switzerland:  https://www.conrad.ch/de/p/rohde-schwarz-rtb2k-com4-digital-oszilloskop-300-mhz-20-kanal-1-25-gsa-s-10-mpts-10-bit-digital-speicher-dso-multi-1663798.html (https://www.conrad.ch/de/p/rohde-schwarz-rtb2k-com4-digital-oszilloskop-300-mhz-20-kanal-1-25-gsa-s-10-mpts-10-bit-digital-speicher-dso-multi-1663798.html)

Germany: https://www.conrad.de/de/p/rohde-schwarz-rtb2k-com4-digital-oszilloskop-300-mhz-20-kanal-1-25-gsa-s-10-mpts-10-bit-digital-speicher-dso-multi-1663798.htm (https://www.conrad.de/de/p/rohde-schwarz-rtb2k-com4-digital-oszilloskop-300-mhz-20-kanal-1-25-gsa-s-10-mpts-10-bit-digital-speicher-dso-multi-1663798.htm)

France: https://www.conrad.fr/fr/p/oscilloscope-numerique-rohde-schwarz-rtb2k-com4-300-mhz-20-canaux-1-25-gech-s-10-mpts-10-bits-memoire-numerique-dso-1663798.html (https://www.conrad.fr/fr/p/oscilloscope-numerique-rohde-schwarz-rtb2k-com4-300-mhz-20-canaux-1-25-gech-s-10-mpts-10-bits-memoire-numerique-dso-1663798.html)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: gdr771 on September 15, 2023, 03:39:37 am
I received my RTBK-COM4 package, and can confirm that it contains every possible option at the time of writing.  Weird that Newark is selling the -BNDL package with that pricing.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kerouanton on September 15, 2023, 07:36:37 am
At conrad.ch the RTB2K-COM4 is CHF 3'438.25 (9% discount, normal price CHF 3'760.40)

I went back to the conrad.ch website this morning to discover that the 9% discount was now a 20% discount  :scared: :clap:

That's now CHF 2'989.79 (20% discount, normal price CHF 3'760.40)  :-+

Now, I guess I'll buy one very soon  ^-^ ^-^ (not counting a CHF 20 discount coupon I got elsewhere, free 2 years warranty extension, and free shipping ;D)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kerouanton on September 15, 2023, 07:46:48 am
I received my RTBK-COM4 package, and can confirm that it contains every possible option at the time of writing.  Weird that Newark is selling the -BNDL package with that pricing.

Last week I had the opportunity to visit a Rohde&Schwartz booth at an exhibition, and asked about that. It seems that they decided to discontinue the -COM4 "all inclusive" package, and now only sell the -BNDL (without the MSO if I understood well). The -COM4 units are former stocks that were bought previously by resellers with the old price, and the -BNDL is the new (but less appealing) offer for new stocks, at the same time without the MSO and with an increased price. The R&S engineer I spoke to told me that if there was still -COM4 units at my reseller it would be wise to buy it before they no longer have them in stock, because the offer won't be available again. And he also admitted that the -9% discount (at the time, now -20%!) at my reseller is more appealing that what he could offer me with a demo unit directly from R&S.

That explains it. Maybe a Rohde&Schwarz engineer here (Rich, Paul?) could confirm that. And I was also told that the RTB2K is far from being EOL, which was what I was fearing...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kerouanton on September 15, 2023, 08:17:58 am
RTB2K-COM4 ordered  :-+ And the discount coupon was not CHF20.- but an additional 10% on top of the already 20% discount, so my final order is even cheaper! What a bargain  :-+ :popcorn:
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on September 15, 2023, 10:50:53 am
I received my RTBK-COM4 package, and can confirm that it contains every possible option at the time of writing.  Weird that Newark is selling the -BNDL package with that pricing.
The R&S engineer I spoke to told me that if there was still -COM4 units at my reseller it would be wise to buy it before they have it, because the offer won't be available again. And he also admitted that the -9% discount (at the time, now -20%!) at my reseller is more appealing that what he could offer me with a demo unit directly from R&S.

That explains it. Maybe a Rohde&Schwarz engineer here (Rich, Paul?) could confirm that. And I was also told that the RTB2K is far from being EOL, which was what I was fearing...

Can't really comment on specific reseller pricing and promotions (since I don't personally track this), but I wouldn't be surprised if there are times when purchasing through a reseller is cheaper than purchasing directly from R&S.

But I can absolutely confirm that the RTB is nowhere near end of life.  The RTB will be around for a long time :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Darkover on September 15, 2023, 12:04:25 pm

I received my RTBK-COM4 package, and can confirm that it contains every possible option at the time of writing.  Weird that Newark is selling the -BNDL package with that pricing.

I would bet that it is now out of the brain of every developer at R&S because more than one year without a new firmware still
bugs that opens from time to time.
So don't expect to much.

Olaf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on September 15, 2023, 02:14:52 pm
I would bet that it is now out of the brain of every developer at R&S because more than one year without a new firmware still bugs that opens from time to time.

Many of the "entry-level" instruments we make (not just scopes, but spec ans, sig gens, etc.) eventually reach a state where they're "done" in terms of firmware-upgradable features, and new firmware releases primarily address bug fixes, etc.   

If you look at the RTM3000 and the RTA4000 (next levels up), they also are "mature" in terms of firmware.  The same is true of our FPC1000 series of entry-level spectrum analyzers and most of our handheld instruments as well.

If you look at higher-end instruments (like the RTP oscilloscope, the FSW spectrum analyzer, etc.), this is where you'll see significant new features added with each firmware release, in part because these platforms have the ability to support newer or advanced technologies without a hardware change.

To be honest, I'm not sure what we could add to the RTB2000 and still keep it as an "entry level" oscilloscope -- it has a lot of features you won't find in some other "entry level" scopes -- but we're always very happy to get feedback :)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: alonsojar on September 15, 2023, 03:57:11 pm

I would bet that it is now out of the brain of every developer at R&S because more than one year without a new firmware still
bugs that opens from time to time.


Hi,
May I ask what are these bugs still unresolved? Listing them here woud help the R&S support to be focused and also users like me to be aware and get out of them if possible.
Last week for instance I noticed that Runt trigger was unavailable (and my siglent sds1202x-e, a real low budget entry level scope has it, but this looks reserved to RTM series :-\). That's not a bug, it is not in the datasheet, but a bit is disappointing indeed.

I otherwise agree the R&S engineer, the RTB2K is a mature product and we should not expect surprises regarding new features for the reasons he honestly explains (half by marketing reasons and half because hw could be quite squeezed).
My experience is that the Rtb2004 runs now smooth and solid and I don't have any complaint, but should be good to know if there are pending problems to be solved.

J.Alonso
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Darkover on September 16, 2023, 04:42:22 am

To be honest, I'm not sure what we could add to the RTB2000 and still keep it as an "entry level" oscilloscope -- it has a lot of features you won't find in some other "entry level" scopes -- but we're always very happy to get feedback :)

At first, I am working myself as a hardware developer at a huge measument company. So I have understanding that
things are at some time out of the brain of the developer!
I also think that a customer can not expect that a company will add new feature after they bought something! I only
believe this happens because your marketing guys knocking at the door of the developer
and starts cry: "Our expensive gem missed some things all the cheap brands have it now. ADD IT!"
BTW: I am glad that I am developing hardware and not software.  :-DD

However a new release of firmware that address a few bugs on your internal buglist, not new feature(!),
from time to time would be nice.
Oh and it would also be nice if the RTB had the same entry level function than your more entry
level scopes like the old HMO2022 that I am using now, because the RTB is send out to R&S.

For example:

A selectable software filter
https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/h/hmo72x_202x/HMOcompact_DigitalOscilloscope_UserManual_en_03.pdf (https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/h/hmo72x_202x/HMOcompact_DigitalOscilloscope_UserManual_en_03.pdf)
Chapter 5.3.5 Filter
I missed that SOOOOOO much in my RTB. :'(

I also missed the switchable 50R inside of the RTB. I mean a 300Mhz scope with this price tag and no 50R? Did your
face not turn red when you meet sometimes people from Tek or Agi somewhere?  :palm:
I guess/hope it is only a flag in the PGA of the channel? :box:

I also missed the component tester of the old HMOs from time to time. So I had to develope
it myself. If someone is interested:
https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/528893#new (https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/528893#new)

There also a few thinks I talked with the salespeople of Hameg 10years ago. When I bought
a bunch of scopes for my company they tend to listen more carefully:

In the probe menue it is possible to select voltage or ampere, it would be nice to type
in any units. For example yesterday I used my scope to measure temperature (self made temperature probe) and it
would make the live easier if you could read "°C" on the screenshot. You only have to whip the software guys a little for it!

A longer horizontal timing than 50s. For example 60s or 3600s/div would be nice sometimes.  ;)

An internal VT100 terminal. That would be very nice for software debuging. Poke your
probe at one pin of the cpu and read all error immediately. No fiddling with USB-RS232 and
terminal program at your computer.

Unfortunatly it did not appear in your scopes.

Olaf

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Darkover on September 16, 2023, 04:57:18 am
May I ask what are these bugs still unresolved?

Of course, but I have no answer, because it is not realy repeatable. From time to time
the RTB acting strange and it needs a reboot. I face it every 2-3month I would say.
I guess it happens more often when you are using the logic probes.
I also guess there is an internal memory or pointerproblem in the software
that sometimes destroy a memory location that is important.

However I can not repeat it or I would write it here or to R&S!

But perhaps I am wrong and it is a hardware problem. I will see when the RTB
is back from the treatment at R&S.

Let me complete that I am satisfied by 99% with the RTB and I would
probably buy it again! (the 1, but huge percent is the 50R of course)

Olaf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on September 16, 2023, 05:29:39 am
For the R&S fanboys, UNSW used the RTB2000 during the covid shutdown for remote experiments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3lknjoDTVw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3lknjoDTVw)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: kerouanton on September 16, 2023, 05:24:51 pm
Nice tour, especially the way everything was designed to be operated remotely with motors to move pots and webcams to see the boards. Funny that when asked about all those Siglent, he doesn't really know what to answer and said that it's not him... Well technically the Siglent remote access is as good as the R&S one!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on September 16, 2023, 06:06:25 pm
An internal VT100 terminal. That would be very nice for software debuging. Poke your
probe at one pin of the cpu and read all error immediately. No fiddling with USB-RS232 and
terminal program at your computer.
My memory may be wrong but isn't there some packet decoding mode? If you set newline to end of packet, then the decoding can show lines of text instead of single characters. But I could be wrong and mixing things up.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on September 22, 2023, 09:23:43 am
I wanted to use SCPI commands to detect when the High Resolution mode is really active. So when the display is white and not gray.

The three SCPI commands return the status for the HighRes mode:

:ACQ:HRES? -> AUTO
:ACQ:MEM? -> LIM
:CHAN:TYPE? -> HRES

But the values do not change, no matter if the display is white or gray. Maybe someone knows a way to determine the status?

The return of ':ACQ:MEM?' with 'LIM' for 'LIMited', is not documented. You can also send the value. Then the sample rate is reduced as with the HighRes mode, but without the HighRes mode being selected.

Peter

One of our developers suggested this:

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/RTM3000_HTML_UserManual_en/Content/c0eb94198a1244d4.htm (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/RTM3000_HTML_UserManual_en/Content/c0eb94198a1244d4.htm)

CHANnel<m>:DATA:YRESolution?
CHANnel<m>:DATA:ENVelope:YRESolution?
CALCulate:MATH<m>:DATA:YRESolution?
MASK:DATA:YRESolution?
LOGic<p>:DATA:YRESolution?
DIGital<m>:DATA:YRESolution?
REFCurve<m>:DATA:YRESolution?
Return the vertical bit resolution of the indicated waveform.

The commands are relevant for data conversion if binary data format is defined              (FORM UINT, 8|16|32).

Suffix
<m>1..4
Return values
<Yresolution>
For default waveforms, the resolution is 8 bit.

If high resolution, average or filter are set for the waveform, the resolution is 16 bit.




Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Darkover on September 29, 2023, 12:17:39 pm

My RTB is back from Batronix/R&S. They found a defektive "complex board" and exchange it with 12month additional warranty.
It is also new calibrated with eight pages of measurement values of the calibration. Oh, and they cleaned it.  :)

But they also made a sticker on the front about the calibration. That looks a little bit ugly.

Good that it was under warranty. :phew:

Olaf
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on September 30, 2023, 08:47:08 am
Yes they do very professional services. i was also impressed in my case.
Now you have a new one year calibrated scope.
Hope you will use sucessfully!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: uski on November 06, 2023, 04:00:31 am

To be honest, I'm not sure what we could add to the RTB2000 and still keep it as an "entry level" oscilloscope -- it has a lot of features you won't find in some other "entry level" scopes -- but we're always very happy to get feedback :)

At first, I am working myself as a hardware developer at a huge measument company. So I have understanding that
things are at some time out of the brain of the developer!

[...]

Olaf

That is a fantastic list of features that could be added and I stongly +1 this list. Particularly the integrated serial terminal, that would be huge. It doesn't have to be a full fledged terminal.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on November 12, 2023, 05:39:04 pm
Hello @pdenisowski!
There is a chance to be introduced differentiate math function (DIFFF or d/dt) for RTB2K?
There are already many usefull math functions, such as recently introduced tracking of duty cycle for PWM signals, but for diff I can't find a function if I'm not missing something. It can be usefull to measure slew rate of an opamp.
Thank you!
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: bayjelly on November 12, 2023, 06:47:05 pm
Hello @pdenisowski!
There is a chance to be introduced differentiate math function (DIFFF or d/dt) for RTB2K?
There are already many usefull math functions, such as recently introduced tracking of duty cycle for PWM signals, but for diff I can't find a function if I'm not missing something. It can be usefull to measure slew rate of an opamp.
Thank you!

Exists already, see "Derivative":
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/rtb_html_usermanual_en/Content/e5e51daffd6b42d3.htm (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/rtb_html_usermanual_en/Content/e5e51daffd6b42d3.htm)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on November 12, 2023, 07:15:54 pm

Exists already, see "Derivative":
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/rtb_html_usermanual_en/Content/e5e51daffd6b42d3.htm (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/rtb_html_usermanual_en/Content/e5e51daffd6b42d3.htm)

Thank you! Indeed diff calculates discrete time derivative of the signal.
I already try this before but without any adjustment. Now after I change the unit (from % to V/s), increase the magnitude and set the aquisition to average it starting to look as what I search for.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on November 12, 2023, 07:38:11 pm

Exists already, see "Derivative":
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/rtb_html_usermanual_en/Content/e5e51daffd6b42d3.htm (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/rtb_html_usermanual_en/Content/e5e51daffd6b42d3.htm)

Thank you! Indeed diff calculates discrete time derivative of the signal.
I already try this before but without any adjustment. Now after I change the unit (from % to V/s), increase the magnitude and set the aquisition to average it starting to look as what I search for.

Why don't you simply use slew rate measurement? It has it...

Slew rate+ Slewrt+ Steepness of the first rising edge, measured between the
lower and the upper reference levels.

Slewrt = ΔV / Δt

Slew rate- Slewrt- Steepness of the first falling edge, measured between the
upper and the lower reference levels.

Slewrt = ΔV / Δt
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on November 12, 2023, 07:54:07 pm

Why don't you simply use slew rate measurement? It has it...
...
Yep ... Looking to double check the results obtained with a Keysight 2K (using diff math function), I didn't think to check if the RTB has such direct measurement ... |O
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on November 12, 2023, 08:10:07 pm

Why don't you simply use slew rate measurement? It has it...
...
Yep ... Looking to double check the results obtained with a Keysight 2K (using diff math function), I didn't think to check if the RTB has such direct measurement ... |O

Don't feel bad. That is why I keep repeating that it takes a lot of time to learn all the details with these new scopes.
There is simply so much stuff..
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ehoernchen on November 29, 2023, 09:43:55 pm
Hi,

I would like to ask if anyone was successful to get a direct connection from pulseview (sigrok) to the rtb2000.
I could not get any connection over Ethernet it freezes over usb I get an error message. I identified the scope but I could not connect.

Best regards, Theo
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: simone_b on November 29, 2023, 10:41:24 pm
Hello KaneTW,

Have you found the service manual?
I still have the damaged RTB2004 and would like to attempt a repair if any documentation is available

I found the RTM3000 service manual, but not the RTB2000 (https://gloris.rohde-schwarz.com/file/RTM3000_RTA4000_ServiceManual_en_03.pdf). I sent a request to R&S.
Title: FFT's
Post by: Robaroni on December 01, 2023, 01:08:59 pm
What's with low frequency FFT's?

I disabled auto BW and tried to set the stop to 20kHz but it still gives me a "min 1.45MHz" stop.

What's up?

Thanks for the time and help,
Rob
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 01, 2023, 10:32:45 pm
That doesn't work either, I finally had to reload a setup to get my freq. range.
I can't believe I gave up my Tek scope for this, now the horizontal coarse/fine doesn't work. Two probes already died - I give up, now I have to buy a real scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: ehoernchen on December 01, 2023, 11:05:27 pm
Hi Peter,

Thanks for your insights, they help me a lot. Saves time to look in the setup. May be I give the source code more look.

I also go via import csv files but would be nice to get the direkt transfer running.

Best regards, Theo
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: KaneTW on December 06, 2023, 04:56:16 am
Hello KaneTW,

Have you found the service manual?
I still have the damaged RTB2004 and would like to attempt a repair if any documentation is available

I found the RTM3000 service manual, but not the RTB2000 (https://gloris.rohde-schwarz.com/file/RTM3000_RTA4000_ServiceManual_en_03.pdf). I sent a request to R&S.

I don't think so. I'll check Gloris later again.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on December 06, 2023, 07:42:33 am
Hello KaneTW,

Have you found the service manual?
I still have the damaged RTB2004 and would like to attempt a repair if any documentation is available

I don't think so. I'll check Gloris later again.

The service manual for RTB2000 is available via Gloris internally (to employees).  I looked at the manual and, frankly, the repair procedure for most faults is to replace the "complexboard" (main board) - there are no component-level test/troubleshooting tips and no board-level schematics in the RTB2000 service manual.
Title: Horizontal encoder not working in coarse mode.
Post by: Robaroni on December 07, 2023, 06:29:01 pm
Hi everyone,

The fine/coarse adjustment stopped working on my RTB2004, it's just fine now. I checked the rotary encoder switch and it works so I'm thinking there's a board problem. My guess it's the control board where the encoder is situated but trying to get anything out of R&S is futile, worse they won't sell you a board if indeed that's the trouble.
It's, of course, out of warranty.

Anyone run into this and what was your solution?
Thanks for the time and help,
Rob
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Rydda on December 07, 2023, 08:43:24 pm
@Robaroni
If your post refers to the problems you had with the FFT setup, I really doubt that there is a fault in your scope.
In FFT mode:
- in the FFT window the horizontal controls sets the 'Center Frequency' and the 'Frequency Span'.
- in the signal window, only the 'Horizontal Position' and the 'Time Range' (with RBW disabled) can be set. The 'Time Scale' cannot be set, so the control may appear to be inoperative.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 07, 2023, 09:44:02 pm
Thanks, now that I'm thinking about it, it's probably the horizontal control that's stuck in fine that's causing the FFT problems. So if you have an FFT bandwidth of 100 megs or more like I did, the control will take forever to get to the audio frequencies.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 07, 2023, 09:52:19 pm
Thanks Peter.
I can change the horiz. pos. bringing up the horiz. control window, the button seems to be the problem. Not the knob itself but the chip that it drives. Is there a reset for this scope? I haven't really played with that stuff, just using the scope for my decoding and other apps. Maybe I should try and reload the latest firmware?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 08, 2023, 01:42:57 pm
Thanks for the info.
I tested the encoder, it's pretty basic - push the button you either get an open or a short on the internal switch which I do get. If it's a board problem it would be relatively easy to find if I had the schematic. I guess I could look at it under my stereoscope and see if there's a bad solder point on an FPGA or something, I doubt an ASICs or an FPGA went bad but you never know.
After a lengthy conversation with the tech at R&S I found out they don't have access to schematics, only the service dept. does. Some newly implemented edict from Germany apparently. Maybe someone should tell them you can get a Rigol 12 bit resolution scope for three hundred bucks now!

She was kind enough to give me the board number and price - $190 but I need a dealer to buy it they won't sell it to me.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on December 08, 2023, 08:15:49 pm
After a lengthy conversation with the tech at R&S I found out they don't have access to schematics, only the service dept. does. Some newly implemented edict from Germany apparently.

I've been with R&S for over 15 years and it's always been that way:  even service manuals don't necessarily have detailed, component level schematics (the RTB2000 service manual does not - I have it in front of me).

Maybe someone should tell them you can get a Rigol 12 bit resolution scope for three hundred bucks now!

Oh, we know -- I spent part of the day yesterday meeting with our oscilloscope product management team in Munich : )

But frankly, there's a lot more to a scope than the number of ADC bits.

(Munich HQ was still open and operating despite record snowfall in Munich last wekeend :))
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 09, 2023, 12:14:18 pm
I'll tell you what, I just bought the Rigol 12 bit DHO924s as a back up for eight hundred bucks. It's packed with everything down to bode plots and is extremely well made. I can see things in the waveforms I can't see on my RTB. Okay so it doesn't have a 10" display but I love the form factor and it's a ball to play with. I even tried decoding and the probes don't look any worse then the RTB's which two have died in the five years I've owned it, I've had Tek scopes for years without losing probe signals or functions. Now the horizontal coarse/fine died and I can't even buy a board for it, if in fact it is the board and not some FPGA on the main board. Unfortunately I can't find out because your tech dept. doesn't even have basic schematics that trouble shoot down to board level. It's always been that way? Maybe you shouldn't have told me that, I think end users should have the right to repair with schematics and access to parts, it's not a good omen that your tech dept. doesn't even have schematics.

You have the schematic? Great, so it's not the switch on the horizontal rotary encoder, what does that switch feed? Is it on the FRONTCONTROLLER FC-2A40 (Part #: 5810.2111.40) board? Maybe you can tell me what pin so I can check continuity. Thanks!

So they referred me to your service dept. and it might as well have been a robot, I get it you want me to send my scope in for repair, what's that going to cost? I lost the connection and she never called back or emailed me with costs. I get it again, we're small potatoes.

They worked in a snow storm because they know they're in trouble and have to find solutions, they got upstaged again by China. Maybe they should invite me to their board meeting, I'll be happy to tell them how the bear went through the buckwheat.

So tell me why I shouldn't get a bigger Rigol for my next scope? That's rhetorical..... are you sure you want to have this conversation?

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Martin72 on December 09, 2023, 12:32:10 pm
Quote
I can see things in the waveforms I can't see on my RTB.

Maybe they don't even exist. :-X ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 09, 2023, 04:07:30 pm
The 924 has a lower noise floor, check Dave's video.

Look, this is the future, chip designers make heroes out of everyone, we can expect better and better quality instruments.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: goaty on December 09, 2023, 08:20:16 pm
Can we get the RTB2k service manual please ? I tried unsuccessfully logging into gloris.
I can send serial number of device with foto if that´s needed.
Thanks, Thomas
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on December 09, 2023, 09:38:55 pm
Thanks for the info.
I tested the encoder, it's pretty basic - push the button you either get an open or a short on the internal switch which I do get. If it's a board problem it would be relatively easy to find if I had the schematic. I guess I could look at it under my stereoscope and see if there's a bad solder point on an FPGA or something, I doubt an ASICs or an FPGA went bad but you never know.
Problems like these are easy enough to find without a schematic as front panel controls are typically constructed as an x/y matrix using diodes and switches. Just look at the signals to check the logic levels; you can use the oscilloscope itself to test this. It could be something simple like a bad connection or bad solder joint on a diode or something like that. Maybe the problem is already fixed by disconnecting the cable to the front panel and connecting it properly again. I have fixed these kind of problems without having schematics several times.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 09, 2023, 10:05:58 pm
The simplest solution is a schematic showing the control pin. Come on R&S this is a six year old machine, I seriously doubt anyone wants to steal your circuits.

Nctnico, I tried the connector trick, I could probably try following the traces but honestly I would rather not unless I have to. I remember when Keysight had actual service manuals, I have  few from older stuff. I think there's one around here from the famous 34401A meter now that I think of it. I still use that meter and it's still perfect.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on December 10, 2023, 12:19:28 am
@robaroni  I'd like to start out by saying that I'm sorry you're unhappy with your service / support interaction.  If you'd like, please PM me and I'll send you my direct email address - I can't promise that I can do everything you ask, but I can guarantee that you'll be in touch with someone who is very happy to get your feedback and pass it on to the responsible parties here at R&S.

Unfortunately I can't find out because your tech dept. doesn't even have basic schematics that trouble shoot down to board level. It's always been that way? Maybe you shouldn't have told me that, I think end users should have the right to repair with schematics and access to parts, it's not a good omen that your tech dept. doesn't even have schematics.

Just curious:  have you tried getting schematics for current products from Rigol or other T&M instrument manufacturers?  I would be very interested in seeing them.

So they referred me to your service dept. and it might as well have been a robot, I get it you want me to send my scope in for repair, what's that going to cost? I lost the connection and she never called back or emailed me with costs. I get it again, we're small potatoes.

Again, please PM me with your information and I will find out what happened and speak to whomever you spoke to.  Assuming this is North America, I personally know everyone in our technical support center, and they are all very customer-focused professionals.

They worked in a snow storm because they know they're in trouble and have to find solutions, they got upstaged again by China. Maybe they should invite me to their board meeting, I'll be happy to tell them how the bear went through the buckwheat.

We actually just had a record year :)

I have regular conversations with everyone on our scope team, including product management, sales, marketing, development, etc.  I can assure you that any feedback you provide me with will be carefully listened to.

So tell me why I shouldn't get a bigger Rigol for my next scope? That's rhetorical..... are you sure you want to have this conversation?

Yes, I very much want to have this conversation.  Feedback from customers (even unhappy customers) is very important to us and drives almost everything we do at R&S.  As both someone who has worked in test and measurement for almost 30 years as well as an avid electronics hobbyist, I very much understand your frustration and would also very much like to see if there is something we can do to address it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 10, 2023, 01:22:12 am
pdenisowski
Thank you for your time and concern, I do appreciate it. The woman in the tech dept. truly tried to help me but she had no schematic and no access, she did however find the board the rotary encoder was on and did pass that on to me although, again, I have no avenue to purchase it if indeed this is the problem. The service dept. was useless.

Here's an example of a current instrument I own, I found the service manual with a simple Google search and copied the link within less than 30 seconds:

https://www.keysight.com/hk/en/support/34465A/digital-multimeter-6-5-digit-truevolt-dmm.html (https://www.keysight.com/hk/en/support/34465A/digital-multimeter-6-5-digit-truevolt-dmm.html)

Direct me to the link for the RTB2004 Service Manual, I have yet to find it.

As for the scope itself, I thought it was buggier than my Tek 2024B, the RTB probes were poor quality and the Tek scope was trouble free. My other instruments from several other major manufacturers have all been more dependable and less buggy than the RTB.

I'd be interested to see how your banner year compared to China's, banner years are relative terms. How many instruments you sold and how well they hold up and perform are two entirely different commodities.

Bottom line would I buy another scope from R&S - no. In fairness I'm semi-retired now so I probably won't make too many more major purchases although I will probably make another scope purchase not counting the backup I just bought.

You said you're looking at the schematic, okay tell me what IC the rotary encoder coarse/fine pin terminates on. Simple, this will tell me if I'm on the right board and I'll know if it's a bad IC or connection.

Thank you for your time and help, again, I do appreciate it.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Hydron on December 11, 2023, 03:39:17 am
The front board has it's own firmware - I'd be very confident that the IC reading the inputs is on that board not another.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 11, 2023, 08:02:57 am
The front board has it's own firmware - I'd be very confident that the IC reading the inputs is on that board not another.

Thanks, that helps, it was my suspicion. I may put it under a microscope and see where the encoder lead comes out.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Lino22 on December 15, 2023, 02:18:58 pm
In the manual there is a note about the divider factor of the probe with AC coupling. Why should the voltage be different than with DC coupling? Is there an explanation for this?

Peter

User Manual v11 - Page 50

4.1 Connecting probes and displaying a signal
...
No attenuation of passive probes with AC coupling:

If AC coupling is set, the attenuation of passive probes has no effect, and voltage is applied to the instrument with factor 1:1. Observe the voltage limits, otherwise you can damage the instrument.


Edit:
Maybe the coupling capacitor is directly at the socket, even before the 1 megohm input resistor?

I am sorry for being back to this. I just want to make sure i understand.

>> I have a probe with only a 10M resistor in series, no divider. When i use it to connect a signal with both AC and DC element to RTB2000, then:

1. AC coupling
The DC part will be "stopped" by the input capacitor, and the AC part will be attenuated  10:1.
If the DC is massive, it can burn the input as it will be transferred across the probe with no attenuation.

2. DC coupling
There is no capacitor on the input, and so both AC and DC will be attenuated 10:1 at the input.

>> Now, i have a P6015A probe that has its own internal 1000:1 divider , and parasite capacity 1pF across the 1000M series resistor in it and 2pF on the input to the ground.
I measure 25kV /1us body/1ms cycle pulses from a magnetron pulser, and the probe is inserted between the pulser and the magnetron (right on the cathode) and connected to RTB2000.
There seems to be a difference between AC and DC coupling, as the DC coupling seems to load the pulser more and makes it drop out.
Do you guys have any idea why?


Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: egonotto on December 15, 2023, 03:37:07 pm
Hello,

with a divider probe you must use DC-coupling.

Since a coupling capacitor has an extremely high impedance at DC, practically the entire input voltage at the coupling capacitor drops at DC. This can be very unhealthy.

See the circuit in the picture Divider.png.

Best regards
egonotto

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Lino22 on December 18, 2023, 09:48:56 am
Hello,

with a divider probe you must use DC-coupling.

Since a coupling capacitor has an extremely high impedance at DC, practically the entire input voltage at the coupling capacitor drops at DC. This can be very unhealthy.

See the circuit in the picture Divider.png.

Best regards
egonotto

I am afraid that it is more like this. So the input impedance the signal right after the probe can see is largely set by the 100k resistor.

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on December 18, 2023, 10:28:29 am
Unfortunately I can't find out because your tech dept. doesn't even have basic schematics that trouble shoot down to board level. It's always been that way? Maybe you shouldn't have told me that, I think end users should have the right to repair with schematics and access to parts, it's not a good omen that your tech dept. doesn't even have schematics.

Just curious:  have you tried getting schematics for current products from Rigol or other T&M instrument manufacturers?  I would be very interested in seeing them.

So would I. I don't know of any scope manufacturer who has released schematics in probably the last 25 years.
Siglent for example do service manuals, which is fantastic, but there are no schematics:
https://siglentna.com/download/6149/?tmstv=1702895353
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on December 18, 2023, 11:12:09 am
Hello,

with a divider probe you must use DC-coupling.

Since a coupling capacitor has an extremely high impedance at DC, practically the entire input voltage at the coupling capacitor drops at DC. This can be very unhealthy.

See the circuit in the picture Divider.png.

Best regards
egonotto

I am afraid that it is more like this. So the input impedance the signal right after the probe can see is largely set by the 100k resistor.

If we are  being pedantic upper resistor in divider would be circa 99,9 MΩ and lower circa 99,9kΩ...  ^-^

But I think egonotto was talking about first probe you mentioned not the P6015A ...
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Lino22 on December 18, 2023, 01:20:35 pm
Quote
But I think egonotto was talking about first probe you mentioned not the P6015A ...

Oh of course.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 18, 2023, 02:09:30 pm
Unfortunately I can't find out because your tech dept. doesn't even have basic schematics that trouble shoot down to board level. It's always been that way? Maybe you shouldn't have told me that, I think end users should have the right to repair with schematics and access to parts, it's not a good omen that your tech dept. doesn't even have schematics.

Just curious:  have you tried getting schematics for current products from Rigol or other T&M instrument manufacturers?  I would be very interested in seeing them.

So would I. I don't know of any scope manufacturer who has released schematics in probably the last 25 years.
Siglent for example do service manuals, which is fantastic, but there are no schematics:
https://siglentna.com/download/6149/?tmstv=1702895353 (https://siglentna.com/download/6149/?tmstv=1702895353)

Dave,
First, he told me he was looking right at the schematic and wouldn't even tell me if the encoder connected to a chip on the same board. You'll notice that the person who said "he was very much interested in this conversation" never got back to me. (I did see he was quick to give you a thumbs up though!)

Here's a link to the Agilent 33220A from 2012 with a full service manual and a schematic (the 33220A was discontinued in 2016 BTW):

https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/9018-04439/service-manuals/9018-04439.pdf (https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/9018-04439/service-manuals/9018-04439.pdf)

Here's a current production 34465A service manual:

https://www.keysight.com/hk/en/support/34465A/digital-multimeter-6-5-digit-truevolt-dmm.html (https://www.keysight.com/hk/en/support/34465A/digital-multimeter-6-5-digit-truevolt-dmm.html)

And a service manual for the Tek TPS2000B scopes.

https://download.tek.com/manual/077044700web.pdf (https://download.tek.com/manual/077044700web.pdf)

I haven't checked any other instruments but these were quick searches, do a search for an RTB 2004 service manual.

R&S doesn't even offer a service manual on a scope that has been out over 7 years. Ask them about buying parts, I've directly bought parts from Tex and Keysight (Agilent). They won't even sell you parts.

Their own tech dept. specifically told me they don't have access to schematics, search down, you'll see people still looking for a schematic around here. Their service dept. was only interested in one thing - send it in for repair.

R&S, I'm going to tell you again - here comes China. That's why you guys are burning the midnight candle in snow storms. I just bought a fully loaded 250M 12 bit scope for eight hundred bucks that's pretty darn good and well finished to boot.

I'll ask you again - are you sure you really want to have this conversation? I remember when Japan went after VW in the 70's and the VW dealer laughed at me, then I remember when Japan went after MB with the Lexus and Germany laughed.......



Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: edavid on December 18, 2023, 03:17:26 pm
First, he told me he was looking right at the schematic and wouldn't even tell me if the encoder connected to a chip on the same board.

No, he never said he had the schematics.  Here is his exact quote:

Quote
I've been with R&S for over 15 years and it's always been that way:  even service manuals don't necessarily have detailed, component level schematics (the RTB2000 service manual does not - I have it in front of me).

He has the internal service manual, which has no schematics.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 18, 2023, 03:40:48 pm
Okay, thanks for the clarification, I stand corrected but that doesn't change the fact that their tech dept. doesn't have schematics AND probably never has AND they don't have service manuals AND they won't even tell me if the encoder drives a chip on the same board AND they won't even sell me a part if it does!

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: edavid on December 18, 2023, 04:27:47 pm
Okay, thanks for the clarification, I stand corrected but that doesn't change the fact that their tech dept. doesn't have schematics AND probably never has AND they don't have service manuals AND they won't even tell me if the encoder drives a chip on the same board AND they won't even sell me a part if it does!

AND you refuse to run the encoder test so you can find out if you even have an encoder problem  |O
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on December 18, 2023, 04:37:47 pm
It's an on/off switch to change for fine/coarse and it was the first thing I tested!

Which of course doesn't change one thing I said in my last post.

AND now I have to put it under a microscope and trace the lines but since I found a work around, as annoying as it is, I may not get to for awhile. AND, of course, I still don't know if the service manual does show anything about the horizontal fine/coarse in it because..... wait for it  --- I don't have a service manual! |O
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: chicken on January 31, 2024, 06:27:39 am
The fan on my RTB2004 sounds like it's on the way out. Does anyone have experience with replacing the fan?

Based on the teardown by mikeselectricstuff, the original fan is a Sunon HA80251V4-1000U-G99. I could only find HA80251V4-1000U-A99 in stock, where the suffix A99 is "AutoRestart", and G99 is "AutoRestart and F type (3rd wire)". There's also an R type option (F99).

Octopart suggested CUI CFM-8025V-120-204-20 as equivalent part. The "20" at the end is for "tachometer signal".

Any ideas whether "F type" and "tachometer" are the same?

Are there other recommended replacement fans?
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: alonsojar on February 05, 2024, 08:17:18 pm
I did some tests with a Noctua NF-A8 FLX fan that should be compatible with the sunon stock fan, in my case looking for more silent (yes, I'm one of these noise phobics).
You can see some comments here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rs-rtb2004-noctua-fan-questionsfeedback/msg5001883/#msg5001883 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rs-rtb2004-noctua-fan-questionsfeedback/msg5001883/#msg5001883)

In brief, the fan was working well, but for any reason it runs a bit faster that the sunon in the same conditions, and at the end it was noisier unless you place some resistor in series to slow it, so I left the original one.
Someone has reported here that newer manufactured Rtb2000 are less noisy, and maybe they have another fan model (for instance R&S uses ebm-papst in other stuff).
It should be good if anyone can share any other experience regarding this subject. Let us know the result if you replace the fan...

J. Alonso
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on February 05, 2024, 08:52:39 pm
@alonsojar, personally I consider this scope the most silent device(with fan) I ever had.
You can say that it sleep on the table or his case is squeaky but not that is noisy. But perception is a subjective matter and sound are not making exception. Maybe you are more sensible to some kind of noise.
I am more disturbed by the noise of the laptop fan or the hum of the DMM6500 but not by this scope because his noise has been balanced (it is not too high and not too low).

Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: alonsojar on February 05, 2024, 09:23:53 pm
Hi skander36
Thank you for your feedback. I'm not particularly complaining about the scope noise, in general my laptop (in fact an intel Nuc 11) is more silent than the scope unless I hit the cpu, but it's never close to be really disturbing.
I was doing some test because it's really easy to replace the fan and I was thinking that a Noctua will perform better regarding noise that the Sunon that was unknown brand for me. Since it was not the case, I forgot the idea and kept on the safe way.
Cheers
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Robaroni on February 05, 2024, 09:26:10 pm
I'm a stickler for noise, I sold an Agilent meter because of noise.

I heard people complain about this but it doesn't bother me at all even after being on all day.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Martin72 on February 05, 2024, 09:36:31 pm
My (former) SDS2504X HD was "dead" in terms of noise, even with the original fan.
There is simply nothing like an active fan controller, but apparently this is only possible above a certain price range.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on February 05, 2024, 10:55:12 pm
...
There is simply nothing like an active fan controller, but apparently this is only possible above a certain price range.

 I dont think that the reason for an active fan controler is the price. Even in the cheapest oscilloscop there are more complicated circuts than an temp controler, which is so simple that simply its cost doesn't matter. I think that the reason for most fans are running at that speed is that  the device has need of that airflow which the fan is assuring at that speed.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: Martin72 on February 05, 2024, 11:08:12 pm
Then you could install the actually not expensive control system everywhere and, depending on the infrastructure, the fans would turn up to full speed faster than elsewhere.
Or otherwise, to follow the logic, you could have installed a weaker fan instead of a controller if the components don't get as warm.
In mass production, I look at every cent of material, especially if I have to offer the product at a low price due to market conditions.
In the price range where the RTB series is at home, there is a little more to it, so you can be "generous" and offer customers something for their ears.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on February 05, 2024, 11:55:45 pm
There is another, overseen fact why RTB2000 is very silent. It is not very powerful scope, processing power wise. It is quite simple scope, and R&S did excellent low power design, in a fairly large, nicely airy case.
Combine that with nice fan running low RPM and you have a winner.

It is all about power. Siglent SDS2000XHD is even more quiet than RTB, for instance, but SDS3000X HD in same case is not as silent as SDS2000X HD. Still good but not as silent as SDS2000XHD.

Same as RTM3000 is not as silent as RTB2000. More power.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on February 06, 2024, 07:24:25 am
Scope with "little processing power” that has real-time digital filters in math, unlike the “more powerful” SDS2000x+ which does not have them due to lack of processing power.  ;D
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on February 06, 2024, 09:27:09 am
Scope with "little processing power” that has real-time digital filters in math, unlike the “more powerful” SDS2000x+ which does not have them due to lack of processing power.  ;D

Who mentioned SDS2000x+ ?

I was comparing how R&S RTB2000 is quieter than RTM3000 in a similar case, and gave a data point how also with other manufacturers, for example  Siglent, it is all about power density: If you stick more power in same case it is going to be hotter and more air evacuation is needed.

And, yes, RTB2000 has very limited processing power. It also have only 10 MPts of memory per channels, measurements work from decimated data sub buffer and FFT is only 128kPts.
It is literally simplest scope R&S makes, if we exclude old inherited Hameg 1000 series.

And I was praising R&S product: very quiet, very good low power design, good thermal design, a winner... All compliments, not a single bad word.

Fact that it is literally 2nd from the bottom product in R&S scope gamut is just a fact. And instead of R&S making cheap crap, they chose to make product that is relatively simple but good quality.
And it being simple is not even a bad thing. No need to have complexity if you don't need it. For some use scenarios simple is a plus, not a minus.

And price vise, if you are going to compare, fair is to compare with other scopes price for price...  Fully loaded RTB2000 (full bundle)  is 3600 € scope...

Best,
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: maxspb69 on February 06, 2024, 10:15:35 am
In fact, having both scopes (RTB2000 & SDS2000X+), I most often use the RTB, because its screen and user interface (responsiveness and thoughtfulness) are significantly better than  SDS2000X+.  And in 99.9% of cases its functionality is sufficient to complete the assigned tasks. How often does someone need 200 megapoints of memory? Or the most accurate FFT using 2M samples?

  But if I need something that is not in the RTB, then the SDS2000X+ comes into play, which can do much more, but is not so convenient to use and has a laggy, unresponsive user interface (if you use hardware controls. There are no such problems when using touch screen).

The RTB2000 is quite an old, simple, but very thoughtful and very well made device. Although its price with a full package of options is very high compared to Chinese oscilloscopes, of course.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on February 06, 2024, 11:10:10 am
...  Fully loaded RTB2000 (full bundle)  is 3600 € scope...

Best,

Which 7200E? :)
RTB2K-COM2

P.S. Remarkable is that they have "student offers" which make this wise equipment accessible to a price comparable to chinese offers.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on February 06, 2024, 11:21:16 am
And it being simple is not even a bad thing. No need to have complexity if you don't need it. For some use scenarios simple is a plus, not a minus.

Despite having access to our entire scope portfolio, for several years I actually used an RTB for my everyday scope needs: it's small, quiet, and simple. 

I now mostly use an MXO4 (in part because I'm developing content around it), but for basic "poking around and looking at signals," the RTB was more than sufficient.

(I also made some "Getting Started with the RTB2000" videos for the Test and Measurement Fundamentals Playlist on the R&S YouTube channel)

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKxVoO5jUTlvsVtDcqrVn0ybqBVlLj2z8 (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKxVoO5jUTlvsVtDcqrVn0ybqBVlLj2z8)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: skander36 on February 06, 2024, 11:41:36 am
I'm use it often because:
- Start fast (9.9 s)
- Is silent
- Fast results (Quick Meas button) for usual measurements (quick check of a waveform)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on February 06, 2024, 12:06:28 pm
...  Fully loaded RTB2000 (full bundle)  is 3600 € scope...

Best,

Which 7200E? :)
RTB2K-COM2

P.S. Remarkable is that they have "student offers" which make this wise equipment accessible to a price comparable to chinese offers.

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB-BNDL.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB-BNDL.html)

3600 +VAT.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: 2N3055 on February 06, 2024, 12:09:22 pm
In fact, having both scopes (RTB2000 & SDS2000X+), I most often use the RTB, because its screen and user interface (responsiveness and thoughtfulness) are significantly better than  SDS2000X+.  And in 99.9% of cases its functionality is sufficient to complete the assigned tasks. How often does someone need 200 megapoints of memory? Or the most accurate FFT using 2M samples?

  But if I need something that is not in the RTB, then the SDS2000X+ comes into play, which can do much more, but is not so convenient to use and has a laggy, unresponsive user interface (if you use hardware controls. There are no such problems when using touch screen).

The RTB2000 is quite an old, simple, but very thoughtful and very well made device. Although its price with a full package of options is very high compared to Chinese oscilloscopes, of course.

That is exactly as I said.
But if you insist to compare to Siglent, today you would get SDS2000X HD for RTB2000 money...
That would be the one to compare to, price vise.
And that is another level altogether.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: pdenisowski on February 06, 2024, 06:32:14 pm
I'm use it often because:
- Start fast (9.9 s)

When we first released the RTB, we had a "power of 10" marketing campaign that talked about its features (10 bit, 10 Msa, 10.1" screen) which included its 10 second boot time :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSCiL5sQ288 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSCiL5sQ288)
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: nctnico on February 11, 2024, 08:31:39 pm
And it being simple is not even a bad thing. No need to have complexity if you don't need it. For some use scenarios simple is a plus, not a minus.

Despite having access to our entire scope portfolio, for several years I actually used an RTB for my everyday scope needs: it's small, quiet, and simple. 

I now mostly use an MXO4 (in part because I'm developing content around it), but for basic "poking around and looking at signals," the RTB was more than sufficient.
It depends a bit on what you are doing; I wouldn't call the RTB2004 simple. For embedded development the protocol decoding and integration of digital channels is super useful and well implemented.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: EEVblog on February 11, 2024, 09:20:34 pm
And price vise, if you are going to compare, fair is to compare with other scopes price for price...  Fully loaded RTB2000 (full bundle)  is 3600 € scope...

I wonder what would happen if R&S slashed the price of the RTB2000 to entry level pricing?
They could probably do it given the NRE would be well and truly taken care of.
That would leave the RTC1000 flaping in the breeze of course, but still, it would be interesting.
As others have said, it's a very capable and nice scope.
Title: Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 12, 2024, 12:04:55 am
And price vise, if you are going to compare, fair is to compare with other scopes price for price...  Fully loaded RTB2000 (full bundle)  is 3600 € scope...

I wonder what would happen if R&S slashed the price of the RTB2000 to entry level pricing?
They could probably do it given the NRE would be well and truly taken care of.
That would leave the RTC1000 flaping in the breeze of course, but still, it would be interesting.
As others have said, it's a very capable and nice scope.
Just a  shame the UI is so sluggish, more so that the RTM is no better.