Author Topic: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004  (Read 409060 times)

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Offline irakandjii

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I took a strong look at the Siglent  about 3 weeks ago.  I liked them for price & features.  But when I asked North American support about the serial decoding capability.  I was told they did not have the equivalent of the segmented memory combined with the history feature that is on the RBT2004. (History lets me record for a very long time up to a week or so, CRAZY I can't imagine ever going that long..) and able to store the records in a file and subsequently reload the file later and decode / examine it again.

Siglent support stated I could only decode what was on the screen "current waveform".  According to the rep I could not save what I had and subsequently play it back & decode it again later.  For me that excluded the Siglent and a lot of other scopes as well.  Did I misunderstand the fellow?

BTW 
I like the Keysight 2000 until I realized I could only decode analog channels and could not display the MSO channels at the same time.  The 3000T does the thing but is out of my price range.  I could cross my fingers and hope to win a 4000x :-DD
I liked the Rigol 2000A series but the decode function was similar to the Siglent and I felt I needed 4 analog channels so it fell off the rails.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Siglent support stated I could only decode what was on the screen "current waveform".  According to the rep I could not save what I had and subsequently play it back & decode it again later.  For me that excluded the Siglent and a lot of other scopes as well.  Did I misunderstand the fellow?

The new Siglent low end scope (not released) does decode on the entire memory, it's one of their marketing highlights.
 

Offline EEVblog

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From Siglent (arguably the cheapest mid-range end scope maker) $2k buys you the Siglent SDS2304X 300MHz 4-Ch Digital Oscilloscope without MSO.
http://www.saelig.com/product/sds2304x.htm
Wow, an R&S scope is the same price as a Siglent, but you get MSO + 10 bit ADC + big high res touch screen.
 :o  :wtf:
:)

The Siglent kicks it's arse for memory depth and wfm/s, probably Pass/Fail too but whe'll have to wait for some proper reviews.
Put a bundle together with AVG, Decode and MSO and have another look at comparable pricing.  :scared:

I just did.
Both are circa $2k.
The R&S comes with so much more it's not even comparable.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Wow, an R&S scope is the same price as a Siglent, but you get MSO + 10 bit ADC + big high res touch screen.
 :o  :wtf:

I think R&S has essentially just said to the other manufacturers: "It's on like Donkey Kong!"

This new wave of oscilloscope wars is heating up quick. Good times. :popcorn:

 

Offline MrW0lf

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This new wave of oscilloscope wars is heating up quick. Good times. :popcorn:

But The One has not arrived :P R&S has no onboard analysis (wfm math only +-*/) to speak of and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K), meaning it probably has little processing power. It cannot do many things that 5x cheaper scopes can. So user has really understand requirements.
 

Offline Neganur

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I think the lack of math functions does suck a bit, I've come to appreciate the integrate function on the keysight :|
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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The R&S can go up to 160Mpts memory depth, which is more than the Siglent has.
I think that's across all channels, i.e. 10M/channel max
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Offline mrpackethead

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The Siglent kicks it's arse for memory depth and wfm/s, probably Pass/Fail too but whe'll have to wait for some proper reviews.
Put a bundle together with AVG, Decode and MSO and have another look at comparable pricing.  :scared:

I dont like the way teh Siglent sales folks go on and on an on. So i'm crossing it off the list for non technical reasons.
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
Hopefully this is a glitch pending it being in stock.

http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 08:43:48 am by mikeselectricstuff »
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Offline nazcalines

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The Siglent kicks it's arse for memory depth and wfm/s, probably Pass/Fail too but whe'll have to wait for some proper reviews.
Put a bundle together with AVG, Decode and MSO and have another look at comparable pricing.  :scared:

I dont like the way teh Siglent sales folks go on and on an on. So i'm crossing it off the list for non technical reasons.

Yeah, I automatically ignore all siglent new releases/etc and would never consider their gear because of this guy. If I were siglent, I'd reassess my marketing strategy.
 
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Offline MrW0lf

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I dont like the way teh Siglent sales folks go on and on an on. So i'm crossing it off the list for non technical reasons.

Dont be too harsh on him, he's a born fighter :box: and probably goes thru a lot with almost simultaneous releases from many brands while he's ordered to keep it down with 2 hands :P
 

Offline Someone

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Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
Hopefully this is a glitch pending it being in stock.

http://uk.farnell.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=rtb2&categoryId=700000005797&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false

It's available in Australia as well but no where near the 2K USD deal :(

http://au.element14.com/rohde-schwarz/rtb2k-com4-launch-edition/rtb2004-complete-bundle-300-mhz/dp/2723153?ost=RTB2K-COM4&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false
To avoid people needing to follow the link (which is fragile), thats the full package 4ch 300MHz loaded bundle for $5,176.88 AUD, plus tax. Very "special" deal for Australians.
 

Online nctnico

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This new wave of oscilloscope wars is heating up quick. Good times. :popcorn:
But The One has not arrived :P R&S has no onboard analysis (wfm math only +-*/) to speak of and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K), meaning it probably has little processing power. It cannot do many things that 5x cheaper scopes can. So user has really understand requirements.
I think the low amount of processing power is what will kill Keysight, R&S and Tektronix scopes if they don't catch on. There is so much more you can do with an oscilloscope which has a lot of processing power because it has the ability to analyse large amounts of samples quickly.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 09:16:56 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Andrey_irk

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Given the input impedance of the RTB of 1 MOhm + 9pf, if one adds a 50 Ohm terminator it will give about 27Ohms of input impedance on 300MHz signal. So, the input signal will be roughly 3dB lower. Then there is an impact of the scope itself. Unless the input capacitance is really lower than advertised, it will be impossible to get 300MHz this way.

Which probes come with the 300MHz version?
 

Offline Neganur

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[...] and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K) [...]

How is 128k sub standard?
What standard?

It's more than all of the InfiniiVision models if memory serves, and I was also under the impression that R&S FFT is pretty good with RBW settings etc.

Edit: I was wrong, enhanced goes up to 1Mpts FFT (e.g. 6000X)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 09:40:31 am by Neganur »
 

Offline agdr

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Which probes come with the 300MHz version?

Just researched that.  :)  According to the Test Equity page here

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/#tabgroup

at the very bottom:

Included with RTB2002, RTB2004: RT-ZP03 passive voltage probes (one per channel) and power cord.

Then looking those up in the Options & Accessories tab on that page:
    
Rohde & Schwarz RT-ZP03.02 Passive Probe
Single-ended, 300 MHz/10MHz,, 10:1/1:1, 10 meg/1 meg, 400 V, 12 pF/82 pF (3622.2817.02)
ITEM #: 045701.W


...and they are priced at $100 each.  So $400 worth of probes at list price.

Lol, I'm starting to think that for this kind of a deal I could get used to that single set of vertical controls after all.  8)  The thing I care about most for what I do is viewing very low level signals.  The 10 bit ADC with 1mV/div over the full measurement bandwidth and claimed low-noise front end in this thing might be just the ticket.

Here is a R&S brochure I dug up about the ADC and front end, 4th page down:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_bro_en_3607-4270-12_v0300.pdf    (opens PDF)

Interesting to compare that to a knock-down of HRO scopes from 2013 from Tek:

http://www.tek.com/blog/not-so-high-high-resolution

Sounds like the world may have changed a bit since then by maintaining the 1mV across the entire bandwidth, combined with a lower noise front end.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 10:03:35 am by agdr »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Which probes come with the 300MHz version?

Just researched that.  :)  According to the Test Equity page here

https://www.testequity.com/products/33440/#tabgroup

at the very bottom:

Included with RTB2002, RTB2004: RT-ZP03 passive voltage probes (one per channel) and power cord.

Then looking those up in the Options & Accessories tab on that page:
    
Rohde & Schwarz RT-ZP03.02 Passive Probe
Single-ended, 300 MHz/10MHz,, 10:1/1:1, 10 M?/1 M?, 400 V, 12 pF/82 pF (3622.2817.02)
ITEM #: 045701.W


...and they are priced at $100 each.  So $400 worth of probes at list price.

Lol, I'm starting to think that for this kind of a deal I could get used to that single set of vertical controls after all.  8)  The thing I care about most for what I do is viewing very low level signals.  The 10 bit ADC and claimed low-noise front end in this thing might be just the ticket.
I do wonder if you really get all 10 bits at 1mv/div, especially as it's not bandwidth-limited
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Offline pascal_sweden

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Do we all agree here that the R&S scope has a bit of an industrial look?

Why did they shave off the corners? Doesn't make it look nicer at all. On the contrary =)
 

Offline MrW0lf

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How is 128k sub standard? What standard?

State-of-the-art in 2017 A.D.
Many analog-stuff oriented scopes starting from GWI GDS-1054B (5x cheaper than wet dream offer from R&S) have 1M FFT (and complex math!). So unless you (almost) don't need FFT - below 1M is substandard, sorry  :-//
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 10:49:10 am by MrW0lf »
 

Offline Zbig

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Do we all agree here that the R&S scope has a bit of an industrial look?

No.
 

Offline EEVblog

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I do wonder if you really get all 10 bits at 1mv/div, especially as it's not bandwidth-limited

You'll get'em, nobody said anything about useful   ;D
The wider the bandwidth the greater the noise floor.
 

Online ebastler

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Do we all agree here that the R&S scope has a bit of an industrial look?
Do we care?  :P
 

Offline rf-loop

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The R&S can go up to 160Mpts memory depth, which is more than the Siglent has.
I think that's across all channels, i.e. 10M/channel max

Without  doubt R&S is higher class scope. I do not want make it questionable. Also personally I have been tens of years R&S fan when talk T&M (older) "Rolls Royces"

I do not know what Siglent here is now "compared". ( I do not want compare apples and oranges)
But  also I do not like "alternative truths aka trumpling".
R&S this machine here have  max 10M for all channels simultaneously and 20M for channel (not interleaved)

Siglent
SDS2000 have max 35M for all channels simultaneously and 70M for channel not interleaved. 4ch models have 2x70M
SDS2000X   max 70M for all channels simultaneously and 140M for channel not interleaved. 4ch models have 2x140M

For segmented memory acq there is available up to 180M (least in SDS2000, just checked)
Max speed 500 ksegment/s.

Example (checked w SDS2304: 4ch on. 1us/div 1GSa/s. Segment length 14k for every channel. 3323 segment  4x14000x3323= ~186 Msample.   
(Maximum memory for history/segments is not available with all t/div and segment sizes.)

For waveform history same amount as segmented. (R&S and Siglent have this very nice feature)
waveform history buffer works just same speed what is current wfm/s speed in use (up to 140kwfm/s)

just for right facts, not like this is better etc...
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 
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Online nctnico

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[...] and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K) [...]

How is 128k sub standard?
What standard?

It's more than all of the InfiniiVision models if memory serves, and I was also under the impression that R&S FFT is pretty good with RBW settings etc.

Edit: I was wrong, enhanced goes up to 1Mpts FFT (e.g. 6000X)
At what speed? An Agilent DSO7104A can also do 128kpts if you have the time to wait several seconds for each FFT calculation. With many points and quick updates FFT becomes a useful tool instead of a gimmick. The problem with FFT in a scope is that the frequency resolution depends on the samplerate (and thus the timebase). The more FFT points you have the less you have to worry about the timebase (seconds/div) setting.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


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