Author Topic: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004  (Read 409504 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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The R&S can go up to 160Mpts memory depth, which is more than the Siglent has.
I think that's across all channels, i.e. 10M/channel max

Without  doubt R&S is higher class scope. I do not want make it questionable. Also personally I have been tens of years R&S fan when talk T&M (older) "Rolls Royces"

I do not know what Siglent here is now "compared". ( I do not want compare apples and oranges)
But  also I do not like "alternative truths aka trumpling".
R&S this machine here have  max 10M for all channels simultaneously and 20M for channel (not interleaved)

Siglent
SDS2000 have max 35M for all channels simultaneously and 70M for channel not interleaved. 4ch models have 2x70M
SDS2000X   max 70M for all channels simultaneously and 140M for channel not interleaved. 4ch models have 2x140M

For segmented memory acq there is available up to 180M (least in SDS2000, just checked)
Max speed 500 ksegment/s.

Example (checked w SDS2304: 4ch on. 1us/div 1GSa/s. Segment length 14k for every channel. 3323 segment  4x14000x3323= ~186 Msample.   
(Maximum memory for history/segments is not available with all t/div and segment sizes.)

For waveform history same amount as segmented. (R&S and Siglent have this very nice feature)
waveform history buffer works just same speed what is current wfm/s speed in use (up to 140kwfm/s)

just for right facts, not like this is better etc...

Why quibble over memory when the R&S has a 10 bit ADC + a big hi-res touch screen + MSO for the same price as the Siglent?
As I see it, at the special R&S launch pricing it's no contest, you'd be mad to buy the Siglent unless it has something very specific you absolutely needed.
 

Offline snoopy

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I do wonder if you really get all 10 bits at 1mv/div, especially as it's not bandwidth-limited

You'll get'em, nobody said anything about useful   ;D
The wider the bandwidth the greater the noise floor.

Tek 8 bit scope verses Agilent 12 bit scope. It's not all about the bits !!

 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Hi Folks,

Wow.  That's what I get for going to bed.  Lots of questions.  I'll see if I can answer a number of them that I saw above.

Q.  Does the ADC run at 10-bits even at 1mV/div?
A.  Yes.  You also get full bandwidth.  The scope also has very good noise for this class of instrument.

Q.  What is the FFT record length?
A.  I believe it is 128Kpts, but I'll double check to be certain.

There are also a lot of questions around the Launch Edition.  Just to clarify, it is an amazing deal, but the quantity is limited and when the Launch Edition is gone, it's gone.  That's why it says "while supplies last".  As I mentioned before, we wanted to create excitement and encourage early adopters. 

And finally - thank you everyone for the questions and the excitement. I'll do my best to keep up.

-Rich
 

Online nctnico

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I do wonder if you really get all 10 bits at 1mv/div, especially as it's not bandwidth-limited
You'll get'em, nobody said anything about useful   ;D
The wider the bandwidth the greater the noise floor.
Tek 8 bit scope verses Agilent 12 bit scope. It's not all about the bits !!


Interesting video but the GDS-2204E can achieve the same using input filtering. In a project I'm currently working on this has been very useful to catch low amplitude signals while the actual signal is swamped with noise.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline irakandjii

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This new wave of oscilloscope wars is heating up quick. Good times. :popcorn:

But The One has not arrived :P R&S has no onboard analysis (wfm math only +-*/) to speak of and FFT is also substandard resolution (128K), meaning it probably has little processing power. It cannot do many things that 5x cheaper scopes can. So user has really understand requirements.

I noticed the rudimentary math available in this scope too.  It is still a bit unclear to me what I would be giving up if I acquired this scope.  The other scope I am considering is the Picoscope 3405D MSO which we discussed in another thread.  The Picos have a really rich math functions and more memory but significantly less bandwidth & sample rate. 

Is there a thread, or other resource I can reference that would educate me on the uses / value of the math functions?  So I can better understand the puts and takes.
 

Offline ci11

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I'll do my best to keep up.


OK, here are a few feedback points for your product planners:

1. Probe sensing and 50 Ohm input go a long way to make the RTB the king of the hill in this segment. This "miss" is a hard-stop since it requires hardware. It's strange R&S decided to cap it there. You've come so far, why not the extra couple of resistors and a few more lines of code in the firmware to make it impossible to resist?

2. FFT's are commonplace in entry scopes now. To be truly useful, FFTs need adjustable scale ranges and peak and harmonic markers. R&S make some of the best spectrum analyzers so they know how to do this perhaps better than anyone else. So the way this has been implemented on the RTO and RTE scopes is truly excellent. A simpler version on the RTB (just like Quick Measure which is on all R&S scopes) would be truly icing on the cake. I would gladly take a 32Kpts FFT with markers over a 1Mpts without markers any day of the week.

3. One last point - make rubber corner bumpers and DC input an option so the RTB can be used on- and off-the bench.

Just a few ideas to turn this into the irresistible $2K king of the hill, and possibly, even the king of the road. Good luck.


 

Offline Neganur

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I don't know, the sales brochure claims you have 'seamless integration' to e.g. MATLAB which in my book means I'm not too worried about the basic math after all. It also seems 'advanced' math is really a feature you'll get from R&S' RTE and RTO models (=much more expensive scopes). BUT: there is very little explanation as to what that actually means and how useful it is.

Quote
Connectivity
The R&SĀ®RTB2000 can be directly connected to a PC via the built-in USB host and USB device ports. The USB host transfers screenshots or instrument settings to a USB stick. Media transfer protocol (MTP) implementation ensures seamless integration. The USB device port and the LAN interface also enable remote control. The built-in web server functionality allows users to control the oscilloscope and display their screen content to an audience. Data and programming interfaces are included, e.g. for seamless MATLABĀ® integration.

from page 11 - https://cdn.testequity.com/documents/pdf/rs/RTB2000-brochure.pdf
 

Offline biot

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There are also a lot of questions around the Launch Edition.  Just to clarify, it is an amazing deal, but the quantity is limited and when the Launch Edition is gone, it's gone.  That's why it says "while supplies last".  As I mentioned before, we wanted to create excitement and encourage early adopters. 

So are we going to get that deal in Europe as well?
 
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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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I'll do my best to keep up.


OK, here are a few feedback points for your product planners:

1. Probe sensing and 50 Ohm input go a long way to make the RTB the king of the hill in this segment. This "miss" is a hard-stop since it requires hardware. It's strange R&S decided to cap it there. You've come so far, why not the extra couple of resistors and a few more lines of code in the firmware to make it impossible to resist?

2. FFT's are commonplace in entry scopes now. To be truly useful, FFTs need adjustable scale ranges and peak and harmonic markers. R&S make some of the best spectrum analyzers so they know how to do this perhaps better than anyone else. So the way this has been implemented on the RTO and RTE scopes is truly excellent. A simpler version on the RTB (just like Quick Measure which is on all R&S scopes) would be truly icing on the cake. I would gladly take a 32Kpts FFT with markers over a 1Mpts without markers any day of the week.

3. One last point - make rubber corner bumpers and DC input an option so the RTB can be used on- and off-the bench.

Just a few ideas to turn this into the irresistible $2K king of the hill, and possibly, even the king of the road. Good luck.
Greatly appreciate the feedback and I'll pass it on to our planners.  And while the RTB doesn't offer a peak search capability for the FFT, you can always use cursors to track the spectrum and read out the XY parameters on the spectrum.  Not exactly the same, but does offer some additional insight beyond the markings we put in the graticule.

-Rich
 

Offline ci11

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And while the RTB doesn't offer a peak search capability for the FFT, you can always use cursors to track the spectrum and read out the XY parameters on the spectrum.  Not exactly the same, but does offer some additional insight beyond the markings we put in the graticule.

This is what I am talking about. It is an FFT from a UPV analyzing an AC inverter waveform. The RTB2K can easily do this and more, and present it the same clear, R&S way. How hard can it be when you already have the code?

« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 07:14:22 pm by ci11 »
 

Online ebastler

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OK, here are a few feedback points for your product planners:

1. Probe sensing and 50 Ohm input go a long way to make the RTB the king of the hill in this segment. This "miss" is a hard-stop since it requires hardware. It's strange R&S decided to cap it there. You've come so far, why not the extra couple of resistors and a few more lines of code in the firmware to make it impossible to resist?

2. FFT's are commonplace in entry scopes now. To be truly useful, FFTs need adjustable scale ranges and peak and harmonic markers. R&S make some of the best spectrum analyzers so they know how to do this perhaps better than anyone else. So the way this has been implemented on the RTO and RTE scopes is truly excellent. A simpler version on the RTB (just like Quick Measure which is on all R&S scopes) would be truly icing on the cake. I would gladly take a 32Kpts FFT with markers over a 1Mpts without markers any day of the week.

3. One last point - make rubber corner bumpers and DC input an option so the RTB can be used on- and off-the bench.

Just a few ideas to turn this into the irresistible $2K king of the hill, and possibly, even the king of the road. Good luck.

Real world alert:  :P
R&S are selling more than this one scope product. And they probably want to continue selling their much more expensive high-end scopes, and their expensive spectrum analysers as well. I am pretty sure the product planners have thought about this, and have intentionally limited the RTB scope in some respects -- not just to cut costs, but also to maintain differentiation for the high-end products.

I like the corner bumper idea: Since this still a reasonably compact DSO, it would lend itself to being lugged around. If the bumpers can be designed to hide the beveled corners, they might even make pascal_sweden happy  ;)
 
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Fairly long demo video here - in Polish with annoying music but with the sound down& you should get an idea of responsiveness etc.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
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Offline Zbig

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Also, the guy needs an anti-peh filter really bad:

« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 04:56:22 pm by Zbig »
 

Offline KE5FX

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This is what I am talking about. It is an FFT from a UPV analyzing an AC inverter waveform. The RTB2K can easily do this and more, and present it the same clear, R&S way. How hard can it be when you already have the code?

How many pixels are in that screenshot you took?  About three million?
 

Offline ci11

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How many pixels are in that screenshot you took?  About three million?


1920 x 1200 = 2,304,000 pixels.
 

Offline KE5FX

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1920 x 1200 = 2,304,000 pixels.

Right, and it already looks crowded to the point of being nearly illegible.  The scope has less than half as many pixels to work with.  It also has to support various other UI elements that the desktop application can hide in other menus or windows.

Figuring out where to put all of those markers and labels is not trivial when you're designing a UI for a dedicated instrument like this.
 

Offline ci11

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R&S are selling more than this one scope product. And they probably want to continue selling their much more expensive high-end scopes, and their expensive spectrum analysers as well. I am pretty sure the product planners have thought about this, and have intentionally limited the RTB scope in some respects -- not just to cut costs, but also to maintain differentiation for the high-end products.

I hear you.

My thinking is that R&S bought HAMEG for good reasons. Along with the RTB, they re-badged 2 former HAMEG products, the NGE PSU and FPC SA. Also for good reasons. And perhaps one of those good reasons would be to find some new customers who are only looking to pay a mere fraction of what R&S usually sells their products for.

The trick to survive in this new business for R&S is very different than the traditional business they know. Different rules, different speed, different tactics. The "Launch Edition" trial balloon will let them know how low they need to go in price, and if they stuff the RTB with more FFT and math functions, perhaps they will also find out what the feature set tolerance level is. They will need to be very aggressive in both to succeed - and keep all their factories busy.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 05:30:45 pm by ci11 »
 

Offline ci11

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Right, and it already looks crowded to the point of being nearly illegible.  The scope has less than half as many pixels to work with.  It also has to support various other UI elements that the desktop application can hide in other menus or windows.

Figuring out where to put all of those markers and labels is not trivial when you're designing a UI for a dedicated instrument like this.


The UPV has a screen size smaller than the RTB at 800 x 600 vs 1280 x 800. Yet its analyzer can go all the way to display the 100th harmonic. Its saving grace is that it is Windows based and hence built in flexibility. For the RTB with no video out, it does not have to implement all 100 harmonics but some subset would still be very helpful. On the RTM, the NEXT and PREV markers implementation is very nicely done, and it definitely is not crowded.
 

Offline agdr

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Fairly long demo video here - in Polish with annoying music but with the sound down& you should get an idea of responsiveness etc.

Very helpful!  I had a laugh when they artificially limited the ADC to 8 bits. Reminded me of 8-bit video games.  :)

 
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Online nctnico

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I would gladly take a 32Kpts FFT with markers over a 1Mpts without markers any day of the week.
You don't have to make that compromise. Still screen real estate is limited on a small DSO so there have to be some limits to what can be displayed.

There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline ci11

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You don't have to make that compromise. Still screen real estate is limited on a small DSO so there have to be some limits to what can be displayed.

Thank you. My point exactly.

This ain't rocket science and R&S has plenty of expertise and experience in-house finding the best way to do this. Attached is an R&S DOS-based 640x480 8K FFT - very primitive by today's standards for sure but it is still easy to interpret and more useful than counting DIVs without markers or having to fiddle with cursors.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 08:59:35 pm by ci11 »
 

Offline Carrington

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Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
...
:(
That is what I feel too when some countries are left out of the game.
But wait, I know, it's due to legal limitations ...
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
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Online ebastler

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Just spotted the launch offer on Farnell. Clearly they don't care so much about Europe
GBP4785 :(
...

Maybe that's due to the fact that R&S (and Hameg) already are quite well-known in Europe as a scope brand, but feel that they need a bigger splash to gain some visibility in the US market?
 
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Offline edavid

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There are also a lot of questions around the Launch Edition.  Just to clarify, it is an amazing deal, but the quantity is limited and when the Launch Edition is gone, it's gone.  That's why it says "while supplies last".

Does that really work?  Your customers will know that you were able to go that low.  Won't they just say "I don't care if it's expired, I want the same deal, or I'll buy Keysight"?
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Another vid, from Brazil this time...

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