Author Topic: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004  (Read 401539 times)

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Offline agdr

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My scope graduated from the 4th grade!
« Reply #1025 on: April 05, 2017, 05:24:17 pm »
From here:

http://www.pbs.org/parents/education/going-to-school/grade-by-grade/fourth/

"Fourth graders read, write, compare, add, subtract, multiply, and divide with very large whole numbers. They do more equations with fractions and decimals...".    See the attached screenshot.  :palm:

One of my few big complaints about the scope.
 

Offline vokars

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Re: My scope graduated from the 4th grade!
« Reply #1026 on: April 05, 2017, 10:28:19 pm »
From here:

http://www.pbs.org/parents/education/going-to-school/grade-by-grade/fourth/

"Fourth graders read, write, compare, add, subtract, multiply, and divide with very large whole numbers. They do more equations with fractions and decimals...".    See the attached screenshot.  :palm:

One of my few big complaints about the scope.

I remember the preliminary sales information of the HMO1202: Only basic maths without formula editor. But at release the formula editor finally was included. All these basic HMO models have that.

For the RTB2000 it seems that the formula editor feature maybe was a victim of the release completion deadline? Maybe it only requires enough customer feedback for R&S to deliver it in a firmware upgrade. Everything else would be a strange marketing mix.
 
 

Offline afhox

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Looks like there is a new video (or at least YouTube just recommended it to me). Unfortunately in Portuguese again:
https://youtu.be/ZNDdfAcP2xc

He basically explains that the more acquistion memory the better and why, using a CAN decoding example.
 

Offline JoHr

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Looks like there is a new video (or at least YouTube just recommended it to me). Unfortunately in Portuguese again:
https://youtu.be/ZNDdfAcP2xc

He basically explains that the more acquistion memory the better and why, using a CAN decoding example.

... indirectly yes. Keeping the same time range while increasing the memory can only be done by increasing the sample rate. Reducing the sample rate
will force the bus at one point to be not decoded correctly ... thats á typical aliasing thing.

At mikes video around 50:43  you can see that there is an aliasing warning within the bus-signal field at the bottom.


I like it pretty much cause you can see that you´re getting closer to the aliasing point where you decode won´t work anymore.

The law of conservation of bugs states that the total amount of  bugs of an isolated system remains constant. Bugs can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, they can be transformed from one form to another.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Just had a look at history/segmented mode :

Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 
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Offline JoHr

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Just had a look at history/segmented mode :

October 2016  ??? Is the date not set up on the KS?
The law of conservation of bugs states that the total amount of  bugs of an isolated system remains constant. Bugs can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, they can be transformed from one form to another.
 

Offline JoHr

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Just had a look at history/segmented mode :

The case on the KS where it doesn´t show the acquisition while its capturing is OK.
This is an acquisition mode where the data are not displayed and processed. R&S scope like RTO/RTM  or the HMOs have this feature as well.
They call it "Ultra segmentation".

This can be used for getting a much higher acquisition rate. Cause on typically data processing you have to handle them online.
In this special mode data processing is done after the acquistions are done and the scope is stopped.

The slow rate of acquistion should come from the idle time between your packets right? Otherwise why are they slower?  The RTB2000 shows a higher acquisition rate for the same typ of packages ...

Sorry i´ve no other scopes to make further  comparisons for this.
The law of conservation of bugs states that the total amount of  bugs of an isolated system remains constant. Bugs can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, they can be transformed from one form to another.
 

Offline nctnico

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Just had a look at history/segmented mode :

Some Keysight scopes can be made to do circular buffering (like a history mode) if you enable the circular segmented recording option (which isn't official). Other than that the way segmented recording and selecting memory lengths are implemented in the RTB2000 is quite standard compared to other DSOs (except Keysight).
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 02:34:38 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline kkessler

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I took a walk around my business park today, following signs to a new food truck area, and what did I see but a big building with Rohde & Schwarz on it.  Googling a little bit, I found I work 0.3 miles from the US Headquarters of Rohde & Schwarz, in Columbia MD.  Not that it helps me much, since I'm still 4 weeks away from getting my scope shipped from California, but at least if the scope sucks, I know where I can throw eggs. :)
 

Offline norks

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People have been saying "$8k scope" a lot and that's not really true because if someone were to buy the fully loaded package they wouldn't pay for options individually, they'd get the all the decodes / wavegen / segmented memory in the option pack instead ($1260). So the full retail price is actually US$6025 without any discounts. Though saying $8k does make the launch deal sound better if you got it. I made a chart to compare some option configurations if I was set on this scope and trying to get the price down. ...in normal times, with the launch deal done and gone. The bandwidth upgrades are big ticket, 200 -> 300 mhz alone is about $1100. The 16ch LA ($770) is the only other stand-alone option. Without those the price is about half but still pretty hefty, kinda DSOX2000-ish. Even without any options, the base 2-ch scope at $1370 could be compelling to some because it still has the main "killer" features: 10-bit ADC and 10" high-res screen. And IMHO other std features that together add just as much value are the snappy remote interface ( :-+ :-+ R&S), low noise, 2.5 GS, 10M mem (breaking with A-brand tradition of small sample memory), and design and build by a top-tier mfr (sure, a variety of charged opinions on this one, but for me I believe R&S + former Hameg team are on the level). Sure the scope has its minuses but so far they haven't been extraordinary IMO, and have been very well covered so far. Still, in terms of pure value a B-brand scope is probably the better choice for those trying to stretch every dollar, but this scope does bring something special to the table. While I think some of the pricing criticism is deserved (protocol decodes, ugh), I don't think it's across-the-board ridiculous. There's a distinct line between A-brand scopes/pricing and B-brands, and whether it's worth the cost to cross that line is of course different for everyone.
 

Offline nctnico

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At $6k it is still $4k more expensive compared to the GW Instek MSO2000AE which has a similar feature set (some pros & cons compared to RTB2000). I'm not sure if a bigger screen, 10bit ADCs and deeper segmented memory are worth $4k though.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online lukier

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At $6k it is still $4k more expensive compared to the GW Instek MSO2000AE which has a similar feature set (some pros & cons compared to RTB2000). I'm not sure if a bigger screen, 10bit ADCs and deeper segmented memory are worth $4k though.

I agree. The only hope for RTB2000, especially if R&S keeps the current pricing scheme, is if somebody manages to hack the options - then 70 MHz 4Ch MSO price is more sensible. I wonder if Mike has some spare time to poke around the RTB2000 to find serial console or the JTAG ID for the CPU. The firmware update seems to be well encrypted (I've checked the entropy).

The more Mike's videos on RTB2000 I watch the more I like the scope, finally modern screen resolution, gigabit ethernet etc, but the pricing is absolute killer. Also IMHO lack of 50 Ohm input sucks, I consider this really important for scopes with bandwith > 100 MHz and I guess 50 Ohm would be good for the claimed 10 bit low noise due to lower Johnson noise.
 

Offline nctnico

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It would be interesting to see if the hacking method found for the other R&S products also works on their scopes. I tried to acquire a second hand R&S scope to try but so far none have been available for a reasonable price.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Neganur

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People have been saying "$8k scope" a lot and that's not really true because if someone were to buy the fully loaded package they wouldn't pay for options individually, they'd get the all the decodes / wavegen / segmented memory in the option pack instead ($1260). So the full retail price is actually US$6025 without any discounts.

Well, but that is not true. The pricing goes like this in Germany: (1 EUR = 1.07 USD according to google)

(Prices in EUR)
1900,00 RTB2004 4CH base model 70MHz

225,00 RTB-B241 70MHz->100MHz
745,00 RTB-B242 70MHz->200MHz
1745,00 RTB-B242 70MHz->300MHz
700,00 RTB-B1 MSO option

4350,00 RTB2K-304M 4Ch, 300MHz, MSO

700,00 RTB-B6 Upgrade 25MHz Arbiträr
480,00 RTB-K1 I²C und SPI Bus Dekodierung
480,00 RTB-K2 UART/RS-232/RS-422/RS-485
480,00 RTB-K3 CAN und LIN Dekodierung
700,00 RTB-K15 History und Segmentierbarer Speicher
7190,00 Total

7190,00 RTB2K-COM4 Complete optioned up 4Ch MSO

U.S. Bundle: (Tequipment.net)
$1,991.26 RTB2K-COM4

So yes, if you want the full bundle, you pay almost 8k USD.

and mind you, they have to pay 19% VAT on top of it if they are mere mortal beings.


EDIT:  OK I found an option bundle hidden away in the price list:'
Mind that this new option bundle did not exist when people were posting the 8k price.

1150,00 EUR RTB-PK1 - contains K1, K2, K3, K15, B6

you still have to buy either the MSO version (2600EUR) or pay 1900+700EUR for the upgrade plus 1745EUR for the 300MHz bandwidth upgrade.
Total: 5500 EUR

So why does the COM-4 package cost 7190EUR ????
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 05:56:57 am by Neganur »
 

Offline NA5WH

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Yeah the prices have already changed from the original released ones.. there wasn't the bundled upgrade...  granted even at the time of release, there were some upgrade options that cost more than upgrading beyond to the next level up.

    RTB2004 70MHz, 4ch, 10bit, 10MSa, 10" WXGA Touchscreen   
    RTB-B243 4ch, 300MHz Upgrade
    RTB-B1 16 channel Mixed Signal Option

Above TEQ and TestE has for $4760 

    RTB-B6 Pattern and Arbitrary Waveform Generator originally  (770)
    RTB-K1 I2C, SPI Trigger/Decode  (540)
    RTB-K2 UART/RS232/RS422/RS485 Trigger/Decode  (540)
    RTB-K3 CAN/LIN Trigger/Decode (540)
    RTB-K15 History and Segment Memory  (790)

Above now has an RTB-PK1  (which I dont recall seeing before)  for $1260  (replaces the $3180 above)

So yeah, when I priced the options and the deal, I saw $7940 for $2080...    3 weeks later now its $6020

Interestingly, TEq and TestE both seem to have dropped the com4 at the $7940 levels already.
 

Offline ws2812b

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The package exists since the beginning. When I first checked the prices on the 14th I already found out. Anyhow, it looks that not all shops are offering it?

Anyhow, for my box I decided I don't need it. BTW: arrived today and absolutely great. If I should try something just let me know. Disclaimer: of the options I only have the logic channels.

Also tried to trigger it with hitting on the screen.... wasn't able to trigger it this way. But maybe I just don't want to sent it in for repairing a broken screen right away :-D. Already have this on my phone.
 

Offline BrianSchmalz

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I also received mine today, and have played with it for about 10 minutes. First impressions:

  • As Mike has said, the knob's detents are really bad. I hate them. They feel very stiff to turn because of the detents, and don't feel 'good' or 'smooth' in my fingers like other scopes I've used. Hopefully somebody will be brave enough to figure out how to remove the detents.
  • I was able to create triggered waveforms by thumping on the screen with my finger, but I had to just about knock the scope over before I could get it to trigger. Not going to be a problem for me at all. If I ever touch my scope that hard, I deserve something far worse than false triggers.
  • Interface is a touch laggy. Not much, and I think I'll get used to it, but it does not feel 'snappy' to me. OTOH, it's screen is so nice and big and sharp - it's a lot of pixels to push around.
  • SO much functionality in this scope. So many menus, so much awesomeness. I've never personally owned a scope this nice before, only used (much more expensive) ones at work. Wow.

It's going to take a long time to really feel comfortable with all of the features in this scope, but I already like it better than my Siglent SDS2304X because of the touchscreen and better button/knob layout.

*Brian
 
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Offline tautech

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It's going to take a long time to really feel comfortable with all of the features in this scope, but I already like it better than my Siglent SDS2304X because of the touchscreen and better button/knob layout.

*Brian
Did you get the 300 MHz R&S ?
Some comparison between it and your SDS2304X could be interesting if you have a chance.  :popcorn:
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline JoHr

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Just had a look at history/segmented mode : ....
Some Keysight scopes can be made to do circular buffering (like a history mode) if you enable the circular segmented recording option (which isn't official). Other than that the way segmented recording and selecting memory lengths are implemented in the RTB2000 is quite standard compared to other DSOs (except Keysight).

Can you tell how to get the circular segmented recording option without changing option-id-resistors or being sued/shot by Keysight?

Cause its a very nice feature to have a permanent history available. In many cases you´ll may see a glitch or infrequent event ...  and think   :wtf:
Just press stop and scroll back in history ...  thats awesome. Its more helpfull than turning on persistence and let the scope capture another seconds, hoping the event will come back.

So why throwing away past data?

Nobody will die if you offer him past valid data instead of throwing them away.




The law of conservation of bugs states that the total amount of  bugs of an isolated system remains constant. Bugs can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, they can be transformed from one form to another.
 

Offline nctnico

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Just had a look at history/segmented mode : ....
Some Keysight scopes can be made to do circular buffering (like a history mode) if you enable the circular segmented recording option (which isn't official). Other than that the way segmented recording and selecting memory lengths are implemented in the RTB2000 is quite standard compared to other DSOs (except Keysight).
Can you tell how to get the circular segmented recording option without changing option-id-resistors or being sued/shot by Keysight?

Cause its a very nice feature to have a permanent history available. In many cases you´ll may see a glitch or infrequent event ..
It is a software option on the older DSO3000/6000/7000 models but it is not like a typical history mode which keeps old acquisitions. You have to go into segmented recording mode and just as Miked showed in the video you won't see any signals on a Keysight scope until you press the stop button. Edit: the latter can be a major nuisance because only after stopping & looking you can check whether the samplerate is still high enough for the protocol decoding to work properly.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 08:35:25 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Neganur

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Has anyone been able to try the data (waveform data) capture functionality yet?
I'm mainly interested in how fast the transfer is over e.g. the LAN interface.
 

Offline Joel_l

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That's good to hear. I was about to order an SDS2304X when I saw this thread. Mine is scheduled to show up Friday. Anxious to run it through its paces. Now I just need to find a home for my old scopes.

Joel

I also received mine today, and have played with it for about 10 minutes. First impressions:

It's going to take a long time to really feel comfortable with all of the features in this scope, but I already like it better than my Siglent SDS2304X because of the touchscreen and better button/knob layout.

*Brian
 

Offline BrianSchmalz

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Has anyone been able to try the data (waveform data) capture functionality yet?
I'm mainly interested in how fast the transfer is over e.g. the LAN interface.

Not knowing much about it, do you have a way to test this out that I could try for you? I have the scope's webpage up (which is really, really nice and very, very fast) but I don't see anything about transferring waveform data on the webpage anywhere.
 

Offline Octane

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I've got mine today as well!!

Played for about 2 hours with it and I love it. Yes, the GUI could be a bit snappier, but for me it is far from annoying!
I'm impressed with the screen, the GUI and the performance so far. It will take some time to get used to it.

The last scope that I used regularly was a TDS2012B if I remember correctly. I used my brothers MSOX2000 sometimes so I know roughly how the Keysights feel as well.

I also think it is pretty silent in spite of having a fan. Doesn't bother me at all.
This is my first scope that I own, I couldn't have wished for anything better.
There are a few slight quirks and bugs in the firmware but I guess R&S will iron them out soon.

EDIT: BTW, I hardly could get my "Whack-O-Trigger" going with hitting the case in a quick test. I didn't want to hit the touchscreen though.
Another thing: The color markers that come with the probes don't fit the on-screen colors on the scope...  :-//  Really R&S?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 12:18:38 pm by Octane »
 
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Offline gslick

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Has anyone been able to try the data (waveform data) capture functionality yet?
I'm mainly interested in how fast the transfer is over e.g. the LAN interface.

Not knowing much about it, do you have a way to test this out that I could try for you? I have the scope's webpage up (which is really, really nice and very, very fast) but I don't see anything about transferring waveform data on the webpage anywhere.

From the R&S®RTB2000 Digital Oscilloscope User Manual

8.3.5 Save/Recall
On the "Save/Recall" page, you can save waveform data and instrument settings to a
file - either on the computer (local file) or on the instrument (remote device). On the
computer, the default storage directory is the download folder, but you can change the
directory using the download functions of your browser. On the instrument, the files are
saved in the internal storage.
You can also load reference waveforms and instrument settings from file to the instrument.
To save data to a file on the computer
1. Select the waveform or the device settings in the "Source" list.
2. Select the file "Format".
See also:
? Chapter 5.3, "Reference Waveforms", on page 70
3. For analog and digital channels, select the "Data" scope to be written.
4. Click "Save".

 


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