Author Topic: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004  (Read 409275 times)

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Offline JoHr

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1975 on: January 17, 2018, 08:28:24 am »
Didn't struggle, just that it was too far down the menu so you had to scroll to reach it

Yes ... stumble is more suitable
The law of conservation of bugs states that the total amount of  bugs of an isolated system remains constant. Bugs can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, they can be transformed from one form to another.
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1976 on: January 17, 2018, 02:39:34 pm »
@mike this can be something for you  ... as i remember you once struggeld with the Hold-Off menu on the RTB2000

Didn't struggle, just that it was too far down the menu so you had to scroll to reach it

But, if I'm not wrong, there is no quick access auto-holdoff, also with this nice drag'n drop functionality on the RTB2000.
Quick access will come to the RTB2000 too  :-+

-Rich
 
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Offline genghisnico13

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1977 on: January 17, 2018, 06:43:32 pm »
So.... I guess we are not getting Basic (Math on Math)? :'(
 

Offline LaurentR

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1978 on: January 17, 2018, 07:02:48 pm »
So.... I guess we are not getting Basic (Math on Math)? :'(

Still "elementary"...   :(
Now, waiting for Rich to send upgrade discount vouchers to everybody who got an RTB2K  :box:
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1979 on: January 17, 2018, 08:30:36 pm »
So.... I guess we are not getting Basic (Math on Math)? :'(
Never say never.  I'm still pushing.  Not something that is guaranteed yet, but it seems like a no-brainer to me to add it as it would clearly be quite useful and doesn't really matter from a differentiation standpoint (i.e. 2000 vs 3000).  Initially, it didn't exist, so it was created as part of the 3000/4000 development.  Now it exists - just a matter of me convincing the right people it should be added in.  Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not - hopefully this time I am! :-+

-Rich
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1980 on: January 17, 2018, 08:48:59 pm »
So.... I guess we are not getting Basic (Math on Math)? :'(
Never say never.  I'm still pushing.  Not something that is guaranteed yet, but it seems like a no-brainer to me to add it as it would clearly be quite useful and doesn't really matter from a differentiation standpoint (i.e. 2000 vs 3000).  Initially, it didn't exist, so it was created as part of the 3000/4000 development.  Now it exists - just a matter of me convincing the right people it should be added in.  Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not - hopefully this time I am! :-+

-Rich

One specific use-case I had the other day  - working on sinusoidal drive for a brushless motor, using lowpass filter to visualise the value of the PWM waveform. My MSOX3104 was a bit slow doing this, so went to compare the RTB2004, but oh, it doesn't have it..!
 
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Offline LaurentR

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1981 on: January 18, 2018, 12:08:34 am »
So.... I guess we are not getting Basic (Math on Math)? :'(
Never say never.  I'm still pushing.  Not something that is guaranteed yet, but it seems like a no-brainer to me to add it as it would clearly be quite useful and doesn't really matter from a differentiation standpoint (i.e. 2000 vs 3000).  Initially, it didn't exist, so it was created as part of the 3000/4000 development.  Now it exists - just a matter of me convincing the right people it should be added in.  Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not - hopefully this time I am! :-+

-Rich

And trying to parse out other spec differences, the flyer says 6 trigger types for the RTB and 7 for the RTM/RTA, but looking at the datasheets, I see runt, rise and fall time triggers on the RTM/RTA and not on the RTB. Is that correct? I assume that's a spec (sw) limitation, not a hw one, right?
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1982 on: January 18, 2018, 08:19:54 pm »
So.... I guess we are not getting Basic (Math on Math)? :'(
Never say never.  I'm still pushing.  Not something that is guaranteed yet, but it seems like a no-brainer to me to add it as it would clearly be quite useful and doesn't really matter from a differentiation standpoint (i.e. 2000 vs 3000).  Initially, it didn't exist, so it was created as part of the 3000/4000 development.  Now it exists - just a matter of me convincing the right people it should be added in.  Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not - hopefully this time I am! :-+

-Rich

And trying to parse out other spec differences, the flyer says 6 trigger types for the RTB and 7 for the RTM/RTA, but looking at the datasheets, I see runt, rise and fall time triggers on the RTM/RTA and not on the RTB. Is that correct? I assume that's a spec (sw) limitation, not a hw one, right?
Hi Laurent - I'm not sure.  I'll see what I can find out.

-Rich
 

Offline artelse

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1983 on: January 18, 2018, 09:36:14 pm »
Anyone know of a Probe BNC adapter for the RTB probes?
The RTB probes are compatible with this kit (made by the same OEM and includes the BNC adapter), which is an absolute bargain if you're within reach of RS:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/
Thanks, great deal, bought it in an instance.. elsewhere they go for €50..

Kit came in today and can highly recommend getting one as it not only includes spare tips, ground lead, etc. but also the missing short ground springy clip.

@Rich why is this very useful probe attribute not included with the scope.. can't be cost, even the Rigol's come with it..
 

Offline MikeP

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1984 on: January 19, 2018, 01:12:44 pm »

Kit came in today and can highly recommend getting one as it not only includes spare tips, ground lead, etc. but also the missing short ground springy clip.

@Rich why is this very useful probe attribute not included with the scope.. can't be cost, even the Rigol's come with it..
Yes, this (short ground springy clip) is a very useful thing....
But you can do it yourself in a variety of configurations.
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1985 on: January 19, 2018, 04:10:03 pm »
Anyone know of a Probe BNC adapter for the RTB probes?
The RTB probes are compatible with this kit (made by the same OEM and includes the BNC adapter), which is an absolute bargain if you're within reach of RS:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/oscilloscope-kits/8014925/
Thanks, great deal, bought it in an instance.. elsewhere they go for €50..

Kit came in today and can highly recommend getting one as it not only includes spare tips, ground lead, etc. but also the missing short ground springy clip.

@Rich why is this very useful probe attribute not included with the scope.. can't be cost, even the Rigol's come with it..
Good suggestion - I'll pass it on.

-Rich
 
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Offline 0xfede

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1986 on: January 20, 2018, 04:06:02 pm »
Hello all,

I've attached a couple of table containing the update rate (measured with the AUX out configured as trigger out and connected to an HP 5334B) of a 10MHZ square wave. My scope is a RTB2004-304M + PK1.
Both tables contains the data @10KSa memory and in auto memory as long as the relative sampling frequencies.
The settings were:
Normal Mode, Acquisition = Sample, decoders-math-menu-fft-counter-Meter-App-etc = off, Channel 1 only, holdoff = off, persistence = off, measurement = off, cursors = off, whatever = off.
In the first table I've used the classic sinx/x interpolation and the dot mode is disabled.
The second table is in Sample-Hold mode and dot mode enable.
Something bizzarre seems to happen between 500us/div and 5us/div particularly when sinx/x interpolation is enabled with significant instability on the measured wfm per second and very low rate also.
Furthermore for unknown reason the 5-2-1 sequence is not respected and instead of 100ns/div we have 80ns/div and instead of 50ns/div we have 40ns/div.

What is happening here?

Best,
0xfede

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Offline MikeP

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1987 on: January 22, 2018, 09:30:36 am »
 I want to describe some moments which can be changed in the future.
 1. When we set cursors for Ch1 and then make Quick-Meas in Ch4 so we lose cursor positions. Channels combinations may be other.
 2. Cursors (horizontal) cannot be used via the multipurpose knob - because very big step. In the Average & HiRes modes only.
 3. AVG section: sub-mV changes of signal offset not make any effects in real world. 100-200-300-400uV etc it’s empty numbers.
 4. RTB is very precision instrument. But 7-10 digits in the cursors or measurements row are excessive. 5 digits are good number.
   
 Dear Rich many thanks for your efforts.  I hope the mathematics in the RTB is reality. Unfortunately I understood - the logarithmic FFT-scale are top-scope’s-part. I’m very SAD. But I'm delighted also - RTM / RTA excellent tools.  :-+
 

Offline 0xfede

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1988 on: January 22, 2018, 01:33:40 pm »
I found something more.

Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.

Someone else may please do the same test?

@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?
Semel in anno licet insanire.
 
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1989 on: January 22, 2018, 03:29:38 pm »
I found something more.

Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.

Someone else may please do the same test?

@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?

Yes. As i can see (RTB2002) at the other scope, trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 03:39:28 pm by hwj-d »
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Offline 0xfede

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1990 on: January 22, 2018, 03:40:57 pm »
Yes. As i can see (RTB2002), trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.

Thank you for taking your time and perform this measurement.
Semel in anno licet insanire.
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1991 on: January 22, 2018, 04:12:19 pm »

Thank you for taking your time and perform this measurement.

Thank's to find it out. I'ts synonymous in my interest too.  :)
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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1992 on: January 23, 2018, 02:19:31 pm »
I found something more.

Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.

Someone else may please do the same test?

@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?

Yes. As i can see (RTB2002) at the other scope, trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
I'm not at my office so I can't test this, but this sounds normal.  It sounds like you are seeing the buffering of the waveforms and then plotting to the display.  With the scope running at 50,000 wfms/s and the screen refreshing at 60Hz, we buffer about 1,000 wfms and then plot them.  While it is plotting, you should see a longer dead-time.  That plotting time may vary.  Having said that, when I get back in front of my scope I'll test this out to see if it aligns with what I'm thinking and what you're seeing.

-Rich 
 
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Offline 0xfede

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1993 on: January 23, 2018, 02:27:33 pm »
I found something more.

Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.

Someone else may please do the same test?

@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?

Yes. As i can see (RTB2002) at the other scope, trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
I'm not at my office so I can't test this, but this sounds normal.  It sounds like you are seeing the buffering of the waveforms and then plotting to the display.  With the scope running at 50,000 wfms/s and the screen refreshing at 60Hz, we buffer about 1,000 wfms and then plot them.  While it is plotting, you should see a longer dead-time.  That plotting time may vary.  Having said that, when I get back in front of my scope I'll test this out to see if it aligns with what I'm thinking and what you're seeing.

-Rich 

Thank you Rich for your answer but we are not even close @ 50kwfm/s or even 1k. In a previous post I've added a couple of tables with much lower wfm/s rates. In some occasion I can read as low as 20wfm/s.
Furthermore in the tables you can see a progressive increment from 200ms/div to 500us/div where the wfm rate drastically drop.

Just for curiosity: why 80ns/div and 40ns/div instead 100 and 50 respectively?

Best,
0xfede
Semel in anno licet insanire.
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1994 on: January 23, 2018, 03:25:48 pm »
I found something more.

Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.

Someone else may please do the same test?

@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?

Yes. As i can see (RTB2002) at the other scope, trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
I'm not at my office so I can't test this, but this sounds normal.  It sounds like you are seeing the buffering of the waveforms and then plotting to the display.  With the scope running at 50,000 wfms/s and the screen refreshing at 60Hz, we buffer about 1,000 wfms and then plot them.  While it is plotting, you should see a longer dead-time.  That plotting time may vary.  Having said that, when I get back in front of my scope I'll test this out to see if it aligns with what I'm thinking and what you're seeing.

-Rich

Thanks Rich for your answer. My test was simpler than that, if i got you right. I'm only looking to pulses at trigger-aux-out in real time with second scope. The rtb2k has nothing to do as displaying the triggered 10Mhz square and showing the triggerpulses at aux.

Best regards.
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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1995 on: January 23, 2018, 03:27:53 pm »
I found something more.

Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.

Someone else may please do the same test?

@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?

Yes. As i can see (RTB2002) at the other scope, trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
I'm not at my office so I can't test this, but this sounds normal.  It sounds like you are seeing the buffering of the waveforms and then plotting to the display.  With the scope running at 50,000 wfms/s and the screen refreshing at 60Hz, we buffer about 1,000 wfms and then plot them.  While it is plotting, you should see a longer dead-time.  That plotting time may vary.  Having said that, when I get back in front of my scope I'll test this out to see if it aligns with what I'm thinking and what you're seeing.

-Rich 

Thank you Rich for your answer but we are not even close @ 50kwfm/s or even 1k. In a previous post I've added a couple of tables with much lower wfm/s rates. In some occasion I can read as low as 20wfm/s.
Furthermore in the tables you can see a progressive increment from 200ms/div to 500us/div where the wfm rate drastically drop.

Just for curiosity: why 80ns/div and 40ns/div instead 100 and 50 respectively?

Best,
0xfede
Sorry - missed that post with the tables.  I'm checking and will get back ASAP. 

-Rich
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1996 on: January 24, 2018, 03:57:20 pm »
I found something more.

Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.

Someone else may please do the same test?

@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?

Yes. As i can see (RTB2002) at the other scope, trigger out has irregular dropouts with different length. And it does'nt look like it's in context to further trigger settings. Tested with 10MHz external square wave 5Vpp edit: 50% duty cycle.
I'm not at my office so I can't test this, but this sounds normal.  It sounds like you are seeing the buffering of the waveforms and then plotting to the display.  With the scope running at 50,000 wfms/s and the screen refreshing at 60Hz, we buffer about 1,000 wfms and then plot them.  While it is plotting, you should see a longer dead-time.  That plotting time may vary.  Having said that, when I get back in front of my scope I'll test this out to see if it aligns with what I'm thinking and what you're seeing.

-Rich

Thanks Rich for your answer. My test was simpler than that, if i got you right. I'm only looking to pulses at trigger-aux-out in real time with second scope. The rtb2k has nothing to do as displaying the triggered 10Mhz square and showing the triggerpulses at aux.

Best regards.
Got an update from R&D this morning - they don't see exactly what you are seeing, but do see something similar at another timebase.  It may be normal (sometimes there are interactions between the software and hardware that could cause this), but they are investigating.

I'll keep you up-to-date.

-Rich
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1997 on: January 24, 2018, 04:03:18 pm »
Quick update on advanced math for the RTB2000 - no promises, but it is looking quite positive that we'll add it.  Unlikely in the next rev (it is already pretty set), but hopefully in the following revision after that.   :-+

-Rich
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1998 on: January 24, 2018, 04:41:00 pm »
Quick update on advanced math for the RTB2000 - no promises, but it is looking quite positive that we'll add it.  Unlikely in the next rev (it is already pretty set), but hopefully in the following revision after that.   :-+

-Rich
Number of channels ?
The 5 channels on the 3000, and ability to do maths on other maths results have some interesting possibilities - already have one idea for something interesting to use it.
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Offline MikeP

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #1999 on: January 25, 2018, 12:19:01 pm »
I found something more.

Instead of using a frequency counter this is what happens if viewing the trigger out in another scope. Large gap appears periodically (with irregular intervals) and these are wide up to 100ms. These gaps seems to explain the jumping beahviour of the frequency counter.
The scope was in dot mode, sample-hold, 10KSample memory, 20us/Div feeded with a 10MHZ square signal.
I also tried to detach ethernet and USB without any change.

Someone else may please do the same test?

@Rich: Is just my scope or is a bug?

Yes. It work with regular or irregular packets. I'm don't see 50 kwfs also.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 12:25:32 pm by MikeP »
 


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