Author Topic: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004  (Read 402242 times)

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Online nctnico

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2250 on: November 14, 2018, 02:56:14 am »
RTA4000 series ? :-//
Sorry yes. Brain getting fuzzed by too many freebie gunmy bears
AFAIK the RTA4000 series has been around for a while. I think this runs on a x86 processor using Windows to have more processing grunt for analytical and math tasks.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2251 on: November 14, 2018, 03:15:50 am »
It was definitely identical to RTM3004 in all noticeable respects, played with for 5 mins, only memory was different.
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Online nctnico

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2252 on: November 14, 2018, 03:34:09 am »
It was definitely identical to RTM3004 in all noticeable respects, played with for 5 mins, only memory was different.
I checked the datasheet and you are right. I probably was thinking about the RTO2000.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2253 on: November 14, 2018, 04:00:08 am »
Hi Rich,
Any update on the release data? Obviously it didn't make it out last week as planned.

On another note Dave has pointed out an oddity in the timebase - I've seen it too but hadn't noticed that it's only 1-2-4-8-2 (vs 1-2-5-1-2 etc) in a single part of the range:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/
Any comments?
Hi Hydron - not sure why the delay (perhaps they found an issue when it was released to manufacturing).  I've asked for the latest and will update. 

I've also asked wrt Dave's question.  I'll update ASAP.

-Rich
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2254 on: November 14, 2018, 04:06:26 am »
Just saw the new RTA2004 at Electronica. Appears identical to the RTM3004 apart from 100M memory. WTF is going on with their series names..? Unlessmayme this will replace the RTM, but they were also.showing that.
Hi Mike - it was released at the same time as the RTM3000.  Yes, I know the naming is less than ideal  |O (but at least we now have the latter part of the name correct - 2000/3000/4000 - hopefully we get all the way there on nomenclature in the future).

With respect to differences, there are a few important ones:

100M per channel, standard.
1G of history, standard.
Better timebase accuracy spec - important when working with super deep memory.
Better noise performance than even the 3000 (which is really good to begin with).

Other minor things:
Only available with 4ch models.
Starts at 200MHz.

-Rich
 

Offline admiralmaggie

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2255 on: November 14, 2018, 08:32:13 am »
Hi Rich,
I use a RTB2004 as my daily scope and I really like it (minus the detents!  |O). Any insight as to why UART decode is limited to 3Mbaud? Looking forward to the new FW update BTW.

Cheers!
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2256 on: November 14, 2018, 11:59:29 pm »
I propose RTFM series :)

R&S need to open source the graphic file for the sticker, I sense an aftermarket label opportunity ;D
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2257 on: November 16, 2018, 01:50:39 am »
Hi Rich,
I use a RTB2004 as my daily scope and I really like it (minus the detents!  |O). Any insight as to why UART decode is limited to 3Mbaud? Looking forward to the new FW update BTW.

Cheers!
Glad you like it (all things considered).  WRT to the 3Mbaud - pure guess on my part (I can investigate with R&D if you'd like), but it may be a limitation of the FPGA we use  :-// 

-Rich
 
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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2258 on: November 16, 2018, 01:54:05 am »
Hi Rich,
Any update on the release data? Obviously it didn't make it out last week as planned.

On another note Dave has pointed out an oddity in the timebase - I've seen it too but hadn't noticed that it's only 1-2-4-8-2 (vs 1-2-5-1-2 etc) in a single part of the range:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/
Any comments?
I'm still expecting it soon.  No exact time - has to go through manufacturing test which is taking longer than I expected. 

With respect to Dave's finding (and I'll update his thread too) - here's the response from R&D:

For this matter, the ratio between sampling rate and pixel per div are important. For 50 ns and 100 ns timebase, the result would non-integer numbers for the pixel per div, e.g. 0.63 for 50 ns at 1,25GSa/s. In principle this could be displayed, but it just would not look very good. For 40 ns and 80 ns the pixel per div are integers, so displaying the measurements looks better.

-Rich
 

Offline admiralmaggie

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2259 on: November 16, 2018, 10:03:29 am »
Glad you like it (all things considered).  WRT to the 3Mbaud - pure guess on my part (I can investigate with R&D if you'd like), but it may be a limitation of the FPGA we use  :-// 
-Rich

No worries, I was just curious... Thanks!
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2260 on: November 30, 2018, 01:46:44 am »
An annoyance I just found - only one text annotation  :wtf:
OK with unlimited numbers it would get hard to manage but a few more would be handy.

A related issue is that channel labels don't work very well as they are on the right-hand side of the screen, making them less obvious than if they were on the left.
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Offline rhb

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2261 on: November 30, 2018, 11:28:07 am »
Hi Rich,
Any update on the release data? Obviously it didn't make it out last week as planned.

On another note Dave has pointed out an oddity in the timebase - I've seen it too but hadn't noticed that it's only 1-2-4-8-2 (vs 1-2-5-1-2 etc) in a single part of the range:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2004-timebase-quirk/
Any comments?
I'm still expecting it soon.  No exact time - has to go through manufacturing test which is taking longer than I expected. 

With respect to Dave's finding (and I'll update his thread too) - here's the response from R&D:

For this matter, the ratio between sampling rate and pixel per div are important. For 50 ns and 100 ns timebase, the result would non-integer numbers for the pixel per div, e.g. 0.63 for 50 ns at 1,25GSa/s. In principle this could be displayed, but it just would not look very good. For 40 ns and 80 ns the pixel per div are integers, so displaying the measurements looks better.

-Rich

I ran into that problem 30 years ago writing a seismic trace display for a MicroVAX II using GKS.  Relative amplitude from trace to trace in seismic displays  is very important, so I had to make sure the user could not choose trace spacings that did not map the the screen properly.  Serious PITA.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2262 on: November 30, 2018, 08:24:41 pm »
While capturing images to show the issue highlighted in the "Timebase Quirk" video I found a couple of minor issues

1) 50MHz sinewave, timebase at 40ns/div. Copy to a reference waveform. the ref waveform gets a slightly different timebase setting (This does not happen on the RTM3004 at the same settings)

2) if you save a screenshot via the save/load button, it saves the screenshot before clearing the menu
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Offline skYfIrE

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2263 on: November 30, 2018, 08:46:55 pm »
I share my experience with R&S RTB 2K scope choice in Europe :

I was divided between new RiGOL MSO5K scope and a R&S RTB 2K. About technical specs (bandwith, refresh rate, memory), RiGOL was better than R&S for the same price. I mean you have a 70MHz, 2.5Gs/s, 20MPts and 50K wfms R&S scope Vs a 100MHz, 8Gs/s, 200MPts and 500K wfms RiGOL scope but RiGOL after sales dept isn't there if you need a scope (e.g. your scope is out of order and you need to not keep without one) whereas R&S has a complete European After Sales Dept who loan you a scope during time when your scope is fixing. That's a real diffrence between 2 worlds : would you like to get only a price or are you ready to pay something to get a good support to help you when you encounter a failure with your device.

As you've guessed, I've choosen the R&S solution and got a little extra from them. I've appreciated they've made a little gift :-+ Keep a good supplier is better than get the lowest price possible.

Even if R&S was my choice, the most important is to continue to get a lot of scopes suppliers to challenge themselves ;D
 

Offline RobBarter

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2264 on: November 30, 2018, 10:23:28 pm »
skYfIrE - I'm coming around to the same view, although still deciding on Keysight or R&S (and 2000 vs 3000 series).  I think Rigol (which I have an 1102E I bought years ago) will need a year or two to polish up their product to move up to the next level.  I think the realities of this sector will force them to up their game in the software dept.  For the cost of an 1102E you can put up with a lot of quirks and even just bin it and buy another model but once you're in the £2.5k - £5k range I'd have 2nd thoughts!

Out of interest, which dealership did you go through for the R&S?  I'd like to support local dealers but Farnell UK (as much as you can call a global company 'local') aren't doing the PK1 offer on the RTM3004, only the RTB2000 series.
minimal sig so a single msg doesn't take up the entire page!
 

Offline skYfIrE

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2265 on: November 30, 2018, 11:16:05 pm »
Hi Rob,

I didn't use Farnell, Conrad or Radiospares for my order, it's a french distributor. The best tip I can recommend to you is to call R&S UK directly and ask to speak with their business dept. Ask to them to give you a best in class distributor for UK and if it's possible to get a little promo to decide you to choose R&S. If you would like to get the name of the french distributor, I'll send it to you by PM, but I think it's better to you to order in UK directly ;) Using this official R&S way, you'll have always a good link with the manufacturer.
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2266 on: December 05, 2018, 01:55:39 pm »
While capturing images to show the issue highlighted in the "Timebase Quirk" video I found a couple of minor issues

1) 50MHz sinewave, timebase at 40ns/div. Copy to a reference waveform. the ref waveform gets a slightly different timebase setting (This does not happen on the RTM3004 at the same settings)

2) if you save a screenshot via the save/load button, it saves the screenshot before clearing the menu
Hi Mike - 1.  This was solved in the last firmware release from this summer.  The latest firmware release is on the web now so you can also just wait for it (although the link doesn't work just yet). 
2.  This is done on purpose for documentation. 

-Rich
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2267 on: December 05, 2018, 02:08:00 pm »
Hi Everyone,

The new release is on the web, but the link doesn't work just yet.  Should be up shortly.  Sorry it has taken so long to get this out, but I think the new additions are worth it!

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/firmware/rtb2000/

-Rich
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2268 on: December 05, 2018, 07:46:40 pm »

2) if you save a screenshot via the save/load button, it saves the screenshot before clearing the menu

2.  This is done on purpose for documentation. 

-Rich
Huh? Documenting what? The screenshot function itself...? making that function essentially useless  :-//
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Offline casinada

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2269 on: December 06, 2018, 03:03:15 am »
The link doesn't work yet......... :-//
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2270 on: December 06, 2018, 03:56:47 am »

2) if you save a screenshot via the save/load button, it saves the screenshot before clearing the menu

2.  This is done on purpose for documentation. 

-Rich
Huh? Documenting what? The screenshot function itself...? making that function essentially useless  :-//
I see your point, but we have a number of customers who use the RTB2000 in education where they write lab manuals, etc and want the menu to show.  So it's sort of a catch22.

-Rich
 

Offline KaneTW

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2271 on: December 06, 2018, 03:59:11 am »
I feel like there's some miscommunication going on. My RTB is unplugged right now but do you mean the screenshot menu showing up in the screenshot?
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2272 on: December 06, 2018, 04:09:17 am »

2) if you save a screenshot via the save/load button, it saves the screenshot before clearing the menu

2.  This is done on purpose for documentation. 

-Rich
Huh? Documenting what? The screenshot function itself...? making that function essentially useless  :-//
I see your point, but we have a number of customers who use the RTB2000 in education where they write lab manuals, etc and want the menu to show.  So it's sort of a catch22.

-Rich

So you make the functionality useless so that people can document the useless function...?
You can document the screenshot menu by pressing the dedicated screenshot button when the menu is open.
Quote

I feel like there's some miscommunication going on. My RTB is unplugged right now but do you mean the screenshot menu showing up in the screenshot?


Yes.

You can of course achieve the same thing using the dedicated button ( as long as you don't want to change the filename ) so it's a minor issue, just a bit silly...

Attatched pic shows the file saved when you press "save" in the screenshot dialogue. A bit like a camera taking a pic if your finger on the shutter....
(tested on RTM, I assume RTB is same)


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Online nctnico

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2273 on: December 06, 2018, 04:25:02 am »
IMHO the file selection diaglog should dissapear before saving the file. OTOH there is a dedicated button for taking screenshots.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2274 on: December 06, 2018, 04:29:54 am »
IMHO the file selection diaglog should dissapear before saving the file.
Of course
Quote
OTOH there is a dedicated button for taking screenshots.
True, however if, for example, you wanted to enter meaningful filenames before saving each screenshot, the screenshot menu is effectively useless.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
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