new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[RBBVNL9]

Elsewhere on this forum, we are having a discussion comparing the RTB to two other oscilloscopes, and creating an extensive functional overview document (currently 32 pages) including all functionalities of the RTB.

Would be happy to receive additions, feedback, corrections, etc. And I hope the document is useful for people to explore further their instrument!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSTHQUENuAc2UwmrlHkVGKw

[Jeroen3]

Anyone have the problem the scope triggers on nothing? Even with selected trigger channel input shorted?

[goaty]

RTB2k ? Which Trigger mode ? Which trigger level ? Have not had any issues so far. With normal trigger and level to zero it´s triggering at some point, sure.

[bayjelly]

Or did you try to use Single trigger mode while not in Normal mode (the default is Auto, i.e. it goes freerunning if no trigger happened recently)? Somewhat counterintuitively, if you are not in Normal mode, Single mode just triggers immediately regardless of the trigger condition... essentially still "freerunning" but stopping immediately.

It kind of makes sense logically[1], but still seems weird because I'm not sure there could be any use for that. Maybe something convoluted with Nx Single trigger mode and the history? Or if you only want to manually trigger (Force Trigger button) anyway?

In any case, since I noticed that once, I just make sure the scope is in Normal mode when using Single mode.

[1] Kind of. Or not, because freerunning does not really mean "triggered", the Trigger LED for example also stays dark.

[Jeroen3]

Normal does it. Strange choices they made.

[nikifena]

A new RTB2002 user here.

After many years of using hmo1202 oscilloscope, which is still a great device, I decided and spent some money for RTB2002 scope.
One feature is missing: it's the component tester from the small brother. Is it possible to integrate it into the RTB scope?

Thanks

[RBBVNL9]

@Nikifena

Congratulations with your new scope.

One feature is missing: it's the component tester from the small brother. Is it possible to integrate it into the RTB scope?

I think this was a feature that comes all the way back from the HAMEG HM203 series in the 1980s, and in fact I always liked this feature a lot!

As you might know, HAMEG was acquired in 2005 by R&S, who used both brand names on some devices for a while, before phasing out the HAMEG name. But some functions of HAMEG instruments could still be recognized in much later instruments, including this component tester.

But I'm afraid it is not in the current R&S oscilloscopes like the RTB series anymore. You may work something out with a function generator (build-in, if your version has one, or external) and the XY mode on the RTB. The HM1202 manual (p. 37) actually gives quite some hints how to do that -) But of course its not the nice build-in feature anymore.

GL

. But its not going to be the ready-made feature   

[voltsandjolts]

One resistor plus a sinusoid from the function gen and x-y mode...and your done!

[RBBVNL9]

One resistor plus a sinusoid from the function gen and x-y mode...and your done!

  that's precisely the hint I referred to in the previous post (which was to be found in the HM1202 manual, p. 37)

[maxspb69]

it always worked this way.

[PeterKlop]

Hameg did build this into some of their scopes, but they also had a standalone box that could connect to any scope in order to add this functionality. That was called the HZ65. Sometimes you can find one on ebay and such.

[RBBVNL9]

I noticed that when saving the settings, the attenuation setting for the probe is not saved or restored when loading.

it always worked this way.

Trying to understand what is and what is not saved in the settings file may be done by simply opening that file in a text editor. Most of the file can be easily read by humans (it starts with a bit of non-readable code but that must be the embedded screenprint).

In such a *.SET file saved fropm my RTB I see:

:PROB:SET:ATT:MAN 1.0000E+00
:PROB2:SET:ATT:MAN 1.0000E+00
:PROB3:SET:ATT:MAN 1.0000E+00
:PROB4:SET:ATT:MAN 1.0000E+00

This suggests that such settings are at least saved in that file.

I would assume that they would also be used when the file is read. But I have not tested that, so if it does not, then it is an interesting question why so....

[skander36]

It seem that in zoom mode it measure only from second screen(zoomed), where the signal is clipped.
On another oscilloscope this is not happen but R&S is the only that I have with this kind of zoom (horizontal and vertical), so here the problem.

[nctnico]

It seem that in zoom mode it measure only from second screen(zoomed), where the signal is clipped.
On another oscilloscope this is not happen but R&S is the only that I have with this kind of zoom (horizontal and vertical), so here the problem.

The reason for zooming in is to look at the detail of a signal so it makes sense to have the measurements active for the parts you are interested in. IOW: it makes sense that the measurements work on the signal in the zoom window and not the main window with the entire signal in it.

Note that the RTB2004 uses decimated data for the measurements so (for example) measuring the risetime of an edge is not always possible for the main window. But when zoomed in, you can get a good measurement. Or think about measuring the frequency at a certain point of the signal. In a way the zoom window works as a measurement gating system as well.

[2N3055]

It seem that in zoom mode it measure only from second screen(zoomed), where the signal is clipped.
On another oscilloscope this is not happen but R&S is the only that I have with this kind of zoom (horizontal and vertical), so here the problem.

The reason for zooming in is to look at the detail of a signal so it makes sense to have the measurements active for the parts you are interested in. IOW: it makes sense that the measurements work on the signal in the zoom window and not the main window with the entire signal in it.

Note that the RTB2004 uses decimated data for the measurements so (for example) measuring the risetime of an edge is not always possible for the main window. But when zoomed in, you can get a good measurement. Or think about measuring the frequency at a certain point of the signal. In a way the zoom window works as a measurement gating system as well.

On some scopes you have gating: a function like cursors, where you use it to select part of the waveform that is of interest for you and then tell it to do measurements only from that area.
Some scopes (some from R&S, Keysight etc) use zoom function for that functionality.

[skander36]

It seem that in zoom mode it measure only from second screen(zoomed), where the signal is clipped.
On another oscilloscope this is not happen but R&S is the only that I have with this kind of zoom (horizontal and vertical), so here the problem.

The reason for zooming in is to look at the detail of a signal so it makes sense to have the measurements active for the parts you are interested in. IOW: it makes sense that the measurements work on the signal in the zoom window and not the main window with the entire signal in it.

Note that the RTB2004 uses decimated data for the measurements so (for example) measuring the risetime of an edge is not always possible for the main window. But when zoomed in, you can get a good measurement. Or think about measuring the frequency at a certain point of the signal. In a way the zoom window works as a measurement gating system as well.

Not always ... the measure is already done in the main window before zooming, but yeah some time you want to measure tiny details ...
Maybe it would be usefull a choice to tell the scope which windows to use for the measurements as 2N3055 describe.
I'm curious what R&S will have to say about.
Overall I am very satisfied with the zoom function.

[Martin72]

On some scopes you have gating: a function like cursors, where you use it to select part of the waveform that is of interest for you and then tell it to do measurements only from that area.
Some scopes (some from R&S, Keysight etc) use zoom function for that functionality.

Older and new lecroy scopes does have it too.
When you call up the measure functions, there is a possibility to change the measuring gate.
By default it´s the whole screen in divisions, now you can select start and end and inbetween the measure will be taken.
But on the elder lecroys (waverunner lt, 93xx) you have the function "tracking", this means once you determined the measure gate, you could move it through the the screen and what´s inbetween will be measured - Very nice and comfortable.
But on newer models starting with windows as OS, you don´t have the tracking function anymore.
Lecroy support tells me to use the zoom function instead.
Yes it will work, but it´s awful to use in comparison to the "old" solution.
Rigol and thank god siglent too, using the trackable measure gate function.

[2N3055]

I have understood it now. The measuring range is not the displayed zoom range, but the complete height, and only the selected width of the zoom range.

Peter

Correct. It is  same way on Keysight 3000T.

[RBBVNL9]

Hello all,

In the aftermath of the serial decode episode of the YouTube videos series I am doing on various scopes I am doing, I ran into something strange.

The RTB serial trigger is particularly powerful because of its wildcard support. But the CAN serial trigger shows a strange quirk that the other decodes in the RTB do not seem to have. If you trigger on “identity and data”, then the trigger only works if you know (and set) in advance the exact frame length. (Same thing for the CAN protocol search function). I attach a document that should allow you to replicate that behavior rather simply, using the instrument’s built-in CAN signal generator and the app.

The LIN(*), SPI, I2C and UART serial trigger do not have this ‘issue’. There, you find the data string regardless of whether you know and set the frame length.

Strangely, the LIN search function does have the issue, but not the LIN trigger.

Thoughts anyone? Is this a bug? If not, why is the CAN decode different from the other decodes? Or am I overseeing something?

[bayjelly]

While I also tend towards the "bug" (or at least "not intentionally thought of as a constraint") interpretation, one thing that *could* play a role is the answer to the following question: According to the CAN standard, is it even permissible to have, on a particular bus, CAN messages with identical ID but variable message length?

I don't recall seeing that myself, but my experience is entirely in a hobby context and limited, and even then convention does not imply requirement.

[nctnico]

@PeDre: just a  for all the cool stuff you are finding & reporting!

[Rydda]

@PeDre

I read out the temperatures and the fan speed with undocumented SCPI commands.
Attached is a recording of one hour directly after power on. Every 5 seconds the values for ADC0, FPGA, CPU, TMP432, fan speed and rpm were stored. Only channels 1 and 3 were active in the default setting. The room temperature was ~ 20 degrees Celsius.

Are the ADC temperature values correct? I'm asking because the heat sink on mine levels out at 34C, so a chip temperature of 64C seems high. Also it looks as if the plotted temperature starts at 42C and not at 20C.

....then back to automatic control for half an hour.

Does your scope control the fan speed?  Mine runs continuously at 1750 rpm irrespective of temperature. No control whatsoever.

[tv84]

Nitpicking: You should place the time unit in the X axis.

[RBBVNL9]

While I also tend towards the "bug" (or at least "not intentionally thought of as a constraint") interpretation, one thing that *could* play a role is the answer to the following question: According to the CAN standard, is it even permissible to have, on a particular bus, CAN messages with identical ID but variable message length?

Dear bayjelly, thanks for the comments. Indeed, it seems not uncommon that using CAN, messages using the same message ID have different length. In fact, the screenprint I posted has two examples of that. But not sure how that would be a reason to deliberately choose to make the device behave like it does for CAN triggering.

I also note that for the LIN protocol, this issue is not present for the trigger but it is present for the search module (which uses exactly the same screen for settings). Also this makes me suspect it's actually a bug...

I made an updated version of the little document that allows people to replicate this (or debunk if I'm doing something wrong;-). In the updated version (attached) the CAN part is the same, but I added the procedure for LIN (almost identical) where the issue is not present for serial triggering.

If anyone who owns an RTB cares to try (should not take more than a couple of minutes) and to share what he/she thinks if this is normal...

[egonotto]

Hello,

in RTA4004 there a 1.1 more error.

insteed "Identifier and data" it is "Adresse und Daten"
and in the CAN text is "RTB2000".

Best regards
egonotto