New LeCroy 1GHz midrange scope (WaveSurfer 10)

[Wuerstchenhund]

It seems the refresh wave at LeCroy is continuing. After introducing the WaveSurfer 3000 (aka Siglent SDS3000) and disappointing WaveJet Touch 300T (which comes with antiquated specs and ridiculous price tags) there now is another scope, the WaveSurfer 10. There's only one model with 1GHz bandwidth, 10GSa/s max sample rate in interleaved (2Ch) mode (5GSa/s in 4 channel mode) with 10Mpts per Channel (non-interleaved) and 20Mpts in interleaved mode.

The chassis seems to be the same as the one of the WaveSurfer (M)Xs/(M)Xs-B and the WaveRunner (M)Xi/(M)Xi-A, with the same 10.4" SVGA (800x600) touch screen, and (based on the specs) I guess it uses the WaveSurfer (M)Xs-B front end as well.

The MAUI graphical UI looks a bit simpler and a bit more crude (like with the WaveSurfer 3000) than the UIs of other XStream scopes. This suggests that (like the WaveSurfer 3000) the new WaveSurfer 10 runs a 'true' Embedded Windows version (i.e. a Windows 7 Embedded variant as opposed to the a full Windows OS like the Windows XP Embedded on previous WaveSurfers which aside from the name was essentially a full blown Windows XP Pro installation). This probably also means that the user can't install any software, which, if true, would be a shame.

Options include serial decode options for a wide range of protocols, and the scope also comes with an L-Bus interface for the MS-250 Logic Analyzer box. There's also a Spectrum Analyzer option.

The price seems pretty reasonable for a 1GHz scope at $8600.

[Mark_O]

The MAUI graphical UI looks a bit simpler and a bit more crude (like with the WaveSurfer 3000) than the UIs of other XStream scopes. This suggests that (like the WaveSurfer 3000) the new WaveSurfer 10 runs a 'true' Embedded Windows version (i.e. a Windows 7 Embedded variant as opposed to the a full Windows OS like the Windows XP Embedded on previous WaveSurfers which aside from the name was essentially a full blown Windows XP Pro installation). This probably also means that the user can't install any software, which, if true, would be a shame.

Any further thoughts in the interim, as to what they may have "dumbed down" in the UI for these newer models?  What tipped you off when you initially noticed the new product intros?

I agree that eliminating the ability for user-installed software would be an unfortunate limitation.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Any further thoughts in the interim, as to what they may have "dumbed down" in the UI for these newer models?  What tipped you off when you initially noticed the new product intros?

The "dumbing down" (i.e. the simpler look) of the UI simply comes from the fact that the WS10 and WS3k are on a true Embedded Windows platform (i.e. some low power ARM core), somewhat similar to Keysight's DSO-X2k/3k/4k scopes (which run Windows CE). Both run Windows 7 Embedded, and because they don't use a "full blown PC" like other LeCroy scopes they can't run other Windows applications than the one that come with the scope.

I agree that eliminating the ability for user-installed software would be an unfortunate limitation.

I thought it was, but I also assumed that the WS3k would start in the $5k to $7k region for the 2Ch 200MHz variant (which is the starting price of previous WaveSurfers). But the WS3k actually starts at $3k, and that price I think the lack of a full Windows installation isn't such a big issue. It still offers many of the goodies of other LeCroy scopes, i.e. the intuitive UI or WaveScan, the internal signal generator now supports arbitrary waveforms (those who bought the sig gen option get arbitrary for free), and like the Keysight DSOX2k/3k also offers a DMM readout (which is free).

At $10k, the WS10 is probably one of the cheapest 1GHz 4Ch scopes on the market, and other scopes in that class (i.e. the Keysight DSOX4104 which starts at $16k, or the Tek MSO4104 which is even more expensive) also run on an embedded Windows platform, so again I don't think that's an issue.

[joeqsmith]

But the WS3k actually starts at $3k, and that price I think the lack of a full Windows installation isn't such a big issue.

I received the attached from them on the pricing.   

Options include serial decode options for a wide range of protocols, and the scope also comes with an L-Bus interface for the MS-250 Logic Analyzer box. There's also a Spectrum Analyzer option.

What's the price on the options?   Does the high end Rigol include these features (serial bus decode and FFT) in the base price?

the internal signal generator now supports arbitrary waveforms (those who bought the sig gen option get arbitrary for free),

Interesting idea.   

[Wuerstchenhund]

What's the price on the options?

   

Don't know but you only really pay for the option if you buy the scope if you buy through standard resellers like Farnell or Digikey. Get it from LeCroy directly or from one of their partners then chances are good the options are thrown in for a low price or even free.

Does the high end Rigol include these features (serial bus decode and FFT) in the base price?

The DS6000 does have FFT of course (every at least half-decent DSO these days comes with FFT) but in case of that Rigol it's a bad joke. Their top-of-the-line DS6000 has 140M sample memory, but according to Rigol themselves it only uses a whooping 2048 points (yes, points, not kpts!) for FFT. That's even worse than a LeCroy 9400A (up to 25kpts FFT) which by now is roughly 26 years old, and really world's apart from what high end scopes could do even in the 90's (i.e. the old LeCroy 9300 Series with up to 1M, or Tek TDS700 with if I remember right somewhere in the region of 45kpts).

The DS6000 also offers serial decode for UART, SPI and CAN as an option but I have no idea how good these options are or how much they cost. My guess would be it's roughly the same as on the smaller Rigol scopes, i.e. DS2000/4000, and in that case like FFT it's nothing to write home about.

[XFDDesign]

What's the price on the options?   Does the high end Rigol include these features (serial bus decode and FFT) in the base price?

Pulled from XSOptix.com:
1 x WS10-PWR: Power Analyzer Option   +$1,718.00
 1 x WS10-SPECTRUM   +$2,203.00
 1 x WS10-ARINC429BUS DSYMBOLIC   +$2,469.00
 1 x WS10-AUDIOBUS TD   +$1,450.00
 1 x WS10-CANBUS TD   +$2,198.00
 1 x WS10-CAN FDbus TD   +$2,990.00
 1 x WS10-DIGRF3GBUS D   +$1,566.00
 1 x WS10-ENETBUS D   +$1,263.00
 1 x WS10-FLEXRAYBUS TD   +$4,498.00
 1 x WS10-EMB   +$2,102.00
 1 x WS10-I2CBUS TD   +$840.00
 1 x WS10-LINBUS TD   +$1,492.00
 1 x WS10-MANCHESTERBUS D   +$1,465.00
 1 x WS10-1553 TD   +$3,205.00
 1 x WS10-NRZBUS D   +$1,465.00
 1 x WS10-SENTBUS D   +$2,010.00
 1 x WS10-SPIBUS TD   +$840.00
 1 x WS10-UART-RS232BUS TD   +$840.00
 1 x WS10-USB2BUS D   +$1,260.00
 1 x WS10-USB2-HSICBUS D   +$1,260.00

[nctnico]

It seems Lecroy is betting on people buying one or two options. The base price of their scopes is low but getting a few option can add up to significant price on top of the base price.

[Wuerstchenhund]

It seems Lecroy is betting on people buying one or two options. The base price of their scopes is low but getting a few option can add up to significant price on top of the base price.

Only if you shop blindly. For work I buy quite a lot of expensive kit, but the occasions where we actually had to pay anything even somewhat near to the asking price for software options I can count on one hand.

[XFDDesign]

It seems Lecroy is betting on people buying one or two options. The base price of their scopes is low but getting a few option can add up to significant price on top of the base price.

Only if you shop blindly. For work I buy quite a lot of expensive kit, but the occasions where we actually had to pay anything even somewhat near to the asking price for software options I can count on one hand.

As a datapoint to help back this, I pointed out that my aversion to buying the WaveSurfer 3054 was the fact the GPIB adapter was another $1k. They're tossing that in "for free" with a 3% discount on the MSRP of the scope. A $6900 scope, with a $1000 add on, for $6700.

[nctnico]

I've learned not to believe wonderful stories about getting great deals because I'm never able to get them. My local (NL) Lecroy dealer doesn't seem to be willing to make a good price for a Wavesurfer 3024 + options so I looked somewhere else to buy a scope from a different brand.

At some point you have to make a budget and see what fits in. Being able to haggle a price down doesn't help because you'd have to budget for the amounts in the pricelist. As soon as the total goes over the budget for an item it's a no-go.

[Wuerstchenhund]

I've learned not to believe wonderful stories about getting great deals because I'm never able to get them. My local (NL) Lecroy dealer doesn't seem to be willing to make a good price for a Wavesurfer 3024 + options so I looked somewhere else to buy a scope from a different brand.

That's a problem with the dealer then, if he doesn't want to make a deal its his loss. But that is not rare, many T&M dealers can't be arsed to lift a finger unless you order a palet of kit worth tens of grands, all while often providing little to no value.

I'd always deal with the manufacturer directly, which is usually easier, plus one hand less to grease.

At some point you have to make a budget and see what fits in. Being able to haggle a price down doesn't help because you'd have to budget for the amounts in the pricelist. As soon as the total goes over the budget for an item it's a no-go.

Yes, but it usually goes that once you know that your budget is X you contact a manufacturer's sales droid stating that you would love to have that piece of kit with these options but your budget is (some amount that is a bit lower than X), and ask if they can meet you or if you should go with Keysight (don't say "Tek", as that is the same as saying "I'm desperate"  )?

In terms of the WS3000, LeCroy is literally bending over backwards to get the scopes in the market, which is surprising for a device that is already list priced at a very decent level and which is on the lower end of the price scale. But LeCroy seems to be determined to get a larger piece of the lower midrange market.

Seriously, if you pay list price for a WS3000 then you're doing a few things wrong. Relying on a single dealer could be one of them.

[Mark_O]

The DS6000 also offers serial decode for UART, SPI and CAN as an option but I have no idea how good these options are or how much they cost.

Not very.  And, a lot.

The serial decode on the DS6000 isn't much different than what's available on the DS4000 and DS2000 series.

Pricewise, each option pack is $825: CAN, SPI/I2C, Flexray, and even UART/RS232.  So $3,300 for the full set.  (It can also trigger on USB, but has no decoder available.)

[Mark_O]

Pulled from XSOptix.com:
 1 x WS10-CANBUS TD   +$2,198.00

One downside I discovered for those doing CAN bus characterization is that the TDM option (adds Measures and graphs, to Trigger and Decode) is not available on either the WS3000 OR the Wavesurfer 10.

To get that option requires either stepping up to the 6z or 7z product lines, or going back in time to some older LeCroys (WR 6k, for one example, and some discontinued Xi/Xs models).

[Wuerstchenhund]

The DS6000 also offers serial decode for UART, SPI and CAN as an option but I have no idea how good these options are or how much they cost.

Not very.  And, a lot.

Not surprising.

The serial decode on the DS6000 isn't much different than what's available on the DS4000 and DS2000 series.

Pricewise, each option pack is $825: CAN, SPI/I2C, Flexray, and even UART/RS232.  So $3,300 for the full set.  (It can also trigger on USB, but has no decoder available.)

The price doesn't sound too bad if the options were good, but the problem I see is that there is very little wiggle room with any of Rigol's prices (you can't negotiate with Rigol, and most sellers get too little out of Rigol kit to be able to offer great bargains on the options).

One downside I discovered for those doing CAN bus characterization is that the TDM option (adds Measures and graphs, to Trigger and Decode) is not available on either the WS3000 OR the Wavesurfer 10.

To get that option requires either stepping up to the 6z or 7z product lines, or going back in time to some older LeCroys (WR 6k, for one example, and some discontinued Xi/Xs models).

Yes, unfortunately the measurement options are reserved to their highend scopes (WaveRunner and up), the WaveSurfers only get decode and trigger. It's probably mostly a marketing thing (of course some capabilities should remain for the more expensive scopes), but for some cases I can see that the weak processor of the WS3k/10 would be a limiting factor, and for some standards realistic measuring requires more bandwidth than 1GHz.

But the WaveRunner 6zi seems to be close to the end of its product cycle, and I've seen an increasing number of deals on this model of which some bring the price pretty close to the WS10, which is not bad for a high end scope.

And which other scope offers a pivot-able widescreen monitor? 

[awallin]

The price seems pretty reasonable for a 1GHz scope at $8600.

and now a mere 4 years later on teledyne-ebay either new for $5,250.00 or refurbished for $4,000.00..
with research funding for unis and institutions being what it is the trigger-finger is getting itchy...