Author Topic: NEW Next Gen 2 Series Tektronix Oscilloscope  (Read 66134 times)

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Offline nctnico

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #100 on: May 21, 2022, 10:31:56 am »
Doesn't matter. The point is that extra features that may not be strongly related to the core function of a piece of test equipment can be useful to some people. It is foolish to dismiss such features.

Not if your goal is to focus on what matters in a core product.
When you do product research with customers (which they did) you'll get literally every suggestion including the kitchen sink.
The art is deciding what's really important and what you should focus on.
Not quite; if you get features for free from the platform (OS) the oscilloscope is built on, it is less work to keep them available rather than blocking them. MicSig leveraged using Android to allow reading PDFs and browse web pages. The same with Windows based test equipment. Networking, running applications, printing support, etc comes for free. IOW: the extra features are just gravy on top that need no development effort.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2022, 10:34:37 am by nctnico »
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Offline bd139

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #101 on: May 21, 2022, 10:40:14 am »
Until the vendor abandons the software and then you have an organisational security problem on your hands...
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #102 on: May 21, 2022, 11:19:59 am »
Until the vendor abandons the software and then you have an organisational security problem on your hands...

Beat me to it. Except that it is any one or more of the vendors with software in the machine.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline nctnico

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #103 on: May 21, 2022, 11:24:29 am »
Until the vendor abandons the software and then you have an organisational security problem on your hands...

Beat me to it. Except that it is any one or more of the vendors with software in the machine.
No sane person would connect a piece of test equipment to a corporate network so it is a non-issue.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tv84

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #104 on: May 21, 2022, 11:28:47 am »
No sane person would connect a piece of test equipment to a corporate network so it is a non-issue.

Don't go that road...
 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #105 on: May 21, 2022, 11:33:06 am »
Until the vendor abandons the software and then you have an organisational security problem on your hands...

Beat me to it. Except that it is any one or more of the vendors with software in the machine.
In the labs I work/worked, I lost count of the number of windows-based test equipment that is not network connected at all, regardless of their age: VNAs, scopes, audio analyzers, etc. Over the years, once the lab managers figured out the security nightmare caused by Windows-based equipment, they flattened out the field by unplugging everything at the demands of the IT department (hard to keep track of what was updated and what was not). Mind you, this was year after year of trying to make this work.

Even during the "free internet" years, rarely an equipment was connected due to constant requests for updates, which back then were just requests but nowadays with Windows 10/11 might even become full on updates in the background that could ruin your standalone test routine. Sure these can be disabled in LTSC versions of these OSes, but then IT will have to manage these machines and apply patches/updates.

So yes, while the concept of internet access works for the lone wolf or the small organization, large groups and corporations will not see them come to fruition.

For Linux/Android the updates can work differently as there is no forced updates in the background and usually updates do not require a restart. However, LTS distros last about 5~6 years which is a fraction of the typical lifetime of test equipment.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #106 on: May 21, 2022, 11:35:05 am »
Doesn't matter. The point is that extra features that may not be strongly related to the core function of a piece of test equipment can be useful to some people. It is foolish to dismiss such features.

Not if your goal is to focus on what matters in a core product.
When you do product research with customers (which they did) you'll get literally every suggestion including the kitchen sink.
The art is deciding what's really important and what you should focus on.

Just so.

It it usually better to do one thing well rather than two things poorly.

There are exceptions, where it can make sense to put two adequate things in one enclosure. But those tend to be very specific special cases.

Like multimeters? I don't know, those are kinda popular...  :-DD

They should do Vac, Vdc, resistance well; current is optional since the power dissipation in the resistor often causes, ahem, "thermal drift" problems.

They are unlikely to do capacitance and frequency well, since that the former is many-valued and the latter would require an extra OCXO.

Quote
Joking aside, it really depends of what is adequate for certain job. For instance, if all you want to check if CPU crystal is oscillating at 10MHz and accuracy is not critical, scope internal frequency measurements are more than good enough.

Indeed, but for that you probably don't even need a frequency counter - just use a diode, a couple of capacitors and a voltmeter :)

Quote
I also never bought timer/counter (I  have counter) because I have a scope that has timing measurements that can go down in picosecond resolutions, with added benefit you don't fly blind...
Good 12 bit (or more) scope will be a good sampling RMS voltmeter with very large bandwidths... So I never got that specialized RMS meter..
I don't need to do any of these measurements to a calibration lab level, and really outstanding specialized instruments are not justified for me.
Modern scopes are next step multimeters.

And today's scopes can actually do many things well, if done right.. Of course, there is no need to put a TurboTax on a scope....
There has to be a focus as to what it is.

Those scopes/LAs/multimeters based on WinXP or which assume your browser contains Java[1] are a pain in the backside for the entire organisation. Both from a security PoV and from a keep-it-working PoV.

Or, for example, a car with lots of mission critical computers and options for air freshioners of all things (inhale your VOCs here!).

[1] e.g. 8 year old Agilent 34410A!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #107 on: May 21, 2022, 03:31:42 pm »

Quote
Joking aside, it really depends of what is adequate for certain job. For instance, if all you want to check if CPU crystal is oscillating at 10MHz and accuracy is not critical, scope internal frequency measurements are more than good enough.
Indeed, but for that you probably don't even need a frequency counter - just use a diode, a couple of capacitors and a voltmeter :)

Yes you could check if something oscillates... With scope you can actually check if someone set PLL to 10MHz or 20 MHz..  6-8 digits of frequency is plenty for many tasks...

Quote
I also never bought timer/counter (I  have counter) because I have a scope that has timing measurements that can go down in picosecond resolutions, with added benefit you don't fly blind...
Good 12 bit (or more) scope will be a good sampling RMS voltmeter with very large bandwidths... So I never got that specialized RMS meter..
I don't need to do any of these measurements to a calibration lab level, and really outstanding specialized instruments are not justified for me.
Modern scopes are next step multimeters.

And today's scopes can actually do many things well, if done right.. Of course, there is no need to put a TurboTax on a scope....
There has to be a focus as to what it is.

Those scopes/LAs/multimeters based on WinXP or which assume your browser contains Java[1] are a pain in the backside for the entire organisation. Both from a security PoV and from a keep-it-working PoV.

Or, for example, a car with lots of mission critical computers and options for air freshioners of all things (inhale your VOCs here!).

[1] e.g. 8 year old Agilent 34410A!

That is not a statement about usefulness of scope features or capability but a statement of manufacturer's incompetence..... On which we agree..
 

Offline james_s

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #108 on: May 21, 2022, 05:52:58 pm »
No sane person would connect a piece of test equipment to a corporate network so it is a non-issue.

It can be argued how sane the people that do it are, but suffice to say people connect test equipment to corporate networks ALL THE TIME. I don't think I've ever worked somewhere that had test equipment and didn't connect at least some of it to the corporate network.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #109 on: May 21, 2022, 08:36:59 pm »
No sane person would connect a piece of test equipment to a corporate network so it is a non-issue.

It can be argued how sane the people that do it are, but suffice to say people connect test equipment to corporate networks ALL THE TIME. I don't think I've ever worked somewhere that had test equipment and didn't connect at least some of it to the corporate network.

I agree. The phrase "corporate network" is misleading here. It sounds like there is one corporate subnet that is sensitive and secure and things shouldn't be connected there unless they are secured to level of PCI-DSS, HIPAA and FedRAMP.....
Corporate network is a set of many different subnets with different levels of security, connectivity etc...

Test dept might have separate little T&M network not connected to LAB1 or LAB2 T&M network. And all of that separated from SAP.. They would be separate VLAN and separated by firewalls..
So sure people would connect T&M equipment to the network where there is a workflow need for it. In those places IT will make it work instead of telling you "you cannot connect that to OUR network". It is not their network, they are just people paid to keep network running, the way business needs it..

All of that in addition to what has been said many times before: If scope is running some old OS that has known vulnerabilities, it is not scope that is dangerous to the network, but vice versa: if network gets attacked, patched PCs will not be compromised but scope OS will.. But that is a problem only if you already have a breach or internal actor. Which means you have bigger problems.
Problem with that is that there are usually no organizational provisions to perform antimalware procedures on scopes by team that is doing that on PCs, and scope users are not it...... 
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #110 on: May 21, 2022, 08:43:20 pm »
Doesn't "next gen" imply gesture or voice control using ML?
Next gen means they haven't had a genuinely exciting announcement for some time, and anything new has to be pushed as hard as possible.
 
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Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #111 on: May 21, 2022, 11:41:24 pm »
What are Tektronix scopes like nowadays? Why should I buy them as a non-hobbyist? What are their advantages against Keysight, LeCroy or Rohde&Schwarz?
I wonder what series is to be replaced by the Next Gen Tek scope... https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes
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Offline nctnico

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #112 on: May 22, 2022, 12:04:29 am »
What are Tektronix scopes like nowadays? Why should I buy them as a non-hobbyist? What are their advantages against Keysight, LeCroy or Rohde&Schwarz?
I wonder what series is to be replaced by the Next Gen Tek scope... https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes
I suppose the MSO/DPO 2000 series. AFAIK there have been on the market for at least a decade now. But I'd say that at this moment the oscilloscopes offered by Tektronix don't bring much compared to the offerings from Keysight, LeCroy or Rohde&Schwarz.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 12:06:21 am by nctnico »
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #113 on: May 22, 2022, 01:11:57 am »
What are Tektronix scopes like nowadays? Why should I buy them as a non-hobbyist? What are their advantages against Keysight, LeCroy or Rohde&Schwarz?
I wonder what series is to be replaced by the Next Gen Tek scope... https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes
Tek scopes all start heavily overpriced for the features, probably reaching a more competitive pricing on the 5 and 6 series (I don't have a need for these series' specs, so I don't know precisely). For a non-hobbyist you would look for service and repairability, which would be head-to-head with other A-brands.

It might be an indication or just anecdotal evidence, but all the most recent purchases I saw are LeCroys and R&S, with the occasional Keysight UXR for the specialized need.
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Offline Domitronic

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #114 on: May 22, 2022, 08:31:29 am »

But I'd say that at this moment the oscilloscopes offered by Tektronix don't bring much compared to the offerings from Keysight, LeCroy or Rohde&Schwarz.


If they wouldn't ruin it with the slow GUI the 4 series would be really nice in my opinion. Not for the list price but Tek often has special offers which make them really competitive. Our 6 Channel scope with all options was cheaper than than a Keysight MSOX3000 with all options at that time. So if you need 6 channels there is no competition in that price range. I also like the Flexchannel design and the spectrum view where you can set the FFT independent from the settings of the time domain. The large display is also nice while decoding a serial bus for example.

But without special offers and if 4 channels are all you need there are better options in my opinion. The last scope we bought wasn't a Tek as well.

The 3 series had really competitive pricing as well for a long time. MDO34 with 350MHz and almost all options was available around 5k plus tax. But right now these special offers are gone. I guess either because there is no need for special offers while lead times are many months or because the new series is in the same price range. At least if the prices posted here in the Newark links are correct.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 08:59:10 am by Domitronic »
 

Offline KrzysztofB

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #115 on: May 22, 2022, 12:53:07 pm »
New series is indeed going to be 2 series scope. So it's definately gonna have some limitations.
Sadly no TekVPI so is a no no for me. However possibility to be battery powered is gonna be great.
I hope they will put effort do optimize series 4 firmware to make it work "descent".
I'm torn between 3 and 4 series. Heard, that 3 series GUI is better responsive that 4 series.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 12:54:59 pm by KrzysztofB »
 

Offline med6753

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #116 on: May 22, 2022, 05:30:02 pm »
Back in the analog days Tektronix was clearly the leader in oscilloscope design. But since the transition to digital and the corporate buy out they have IMHO fallen to about the bottom of the pack. hp-Agilent-Keysight has clearly weathered that corporate upheaval in a much more secure position. If I were in the market for a high dollar DSO (I'm not) I don't think Tek would even appear on my list of choices. 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #117 on: May 22, 2022, 05:42:55 pm »
Did anybody ever get fired for buying a Tek?
 

Offline med6753

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #118 on: May 22, 2022, 05:45:02 pm »
Did anybody ever get fired for buying a Tek?

Sort of the same as did anyone ever get fired for buying IBM?
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Offline bd139

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #119 on: May 22, 2022, 05:46:03 pm »
Did anybody ever get fired for buying a Tek?

Sort of the same as did anyone ever get fired for buying IBM?

IBM Watson, probably yes  :-DD
 
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Offline med6753

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #120 on: May 22, 2022, 05:53:48 pm »
Did anybody ever get fired for buying a Tek?

Sort of the same as did anyone ever get fired for buying IBM?

IBM Watson, probably yes  :-DD

Yes, that could put you in jeopardy.  ;D
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Offline wasedadoc

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #121 on: May 22, 2022, 06:09:07 pm »
Back when I was a PFY in the early 70's the perceived wisdom in the labs where I worked was simple. Tek for scopes and TV (analogue - there was no digital) test signal generation and measurement equipment.  HP for frequency domain gear.  Price wasn't an important consideration - yes it was one of those places.

I did a lot of design of baseband analogue video gear and TTL circuitry using a Tek453 with the TV sync option. Loved that fine trace and the compact size compared to the 547s. (Though the 545s and 547s were excellent for keeping the lab warm on cold winter days!)  Later I had the opportunity to switch to a 465 but that had a thick trace. I said "No thankyou" and kept to the 453 until I was promoted away from hands-on work. 
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #122 on: May 22, 2022, 06:46:27 pm »
Back in the analog days Tektronix was clearly the leader in oscilloscope design. But since the transition to digital and the corporate buy out they have IMHO fallen to about the bottom of the pack. hp-Agilent-Keysight has clearly weathered that corporate upheaval in a much more secure position. If I were in the market for a high dollar DSO (I'm not) I don't think Tek would even appear on my list of choices.
DSO yes, but Tek still has some pretty good instruments that are well worth buying. For example their function generators, frequency counters and bench DMMs.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline med6753

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #123 on: May 22, 2022, 07:26:18 pm »
Back in the analog days Tektronix was clearly the leader in oscilloscope design. But since the transition to digital and the corporate buy out they have IMHO fallen to about the bottom of the pack. hp-Agilent-Keysight has clearly weathered that corporate upheaval in a much more secure position. If I were in the market for a high dollar DSO (I'm not) I don't think Tek would even appear on my list of choices.
DSO yes, but Tek still has some pretty good instruments that are well worth buying. For example their function generators, frequency counters and bench DMMs.

Well sure, if you include the forced marriage of Tektronix/Keithley and to a lesser extent Fluke then I would agree. But Tektronix as a stand alone? Nope.  :--
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Offline nctnico

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Re: NEW Next Gen Tektronix Scope
« Reply #124 on: May 22, 2022, 07:57:26 pm »
To nitpick: Tektronix has a long history of arbitrary waveform generators. These didn't come from Fluke / Keithley.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


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