EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: EEVblog on May 17, 2022, 11:27:41 pm
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New Tek scope?
https://tektronix.brandlive.com/Next-Gen-Tek/en (https://tektronix.brandlive.com/Next-Gen-Tek/en)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1489318;image)
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It looks very thin ...
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It looks very thin ...
No thinner than a Micsig. :popcorn:
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That doesn't really tell me anything useful. Wake me up when there are some published specs. Not that I could justify spending the money on a brand new Tek anyway.
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You know it's gonna be overpriced and the probes will cost even more than the 'scope.
But hey, it's a tek.
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"Overpriced" is subjective. I've never paid more than about 600 bucks for a scope, but $20k is peanuts for a lot of companies that would be buying this stuff. Compared to the salary of even one engineer it's practically nothing. It's typical for probes to cost more than the scope even for cheap stuff, at least if you need anything remotely exotic.
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"Overpriced" is subjective. I've never paid more than about 600 bucks for a scope, but $20k is peanuts for a lot of companies that would be buying this stuff. Compared to the salary of even one engineer it's practically nothing. It's typical for probes to cost more than the scope even for cheap stuff, at least if you need anything remotely exotic.
They already have new 3, 4, 5, and 6 series scopes in the 5 digit range.
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Added some processing to the image to pull contrast up....
(https://imgur.com/nvezf7r.jpg)
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Most 'scopes are just a single PCB these days so making them thin is a logical step.
The power supply is probably external.
"Overpriced" is subjective.
Yeah, I know. I'm not their target demographic. :P
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Added some processing to the image to pull contrast up....
(https://imgur.com/nvezf7r.jpg)
Given the weight and (in)flexible nature of many probes, how do Tek recommend that is attached to the bench?
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Added some processing to the image to pull contrast up....
(https://imgur.com/nvezf7r.jpg)
Given the weight and (in)flexible nature of many probes, how do Tek recommend that is attached to the bench?
Considering the TDS210 has a propensity to attempt to bugger off when you're using it, I would suggest that wedging a copy of TAoE X chapters under the front of the BNCs is a valid tested solution.
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Is the blue part a carrying handle?
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Thanks. Are those the BNC connectors across the bottom - five, or just more knobs? I had a thought (I know it's scary) that this is just the display and the main unit that you connect your signals to is a separate unit. This is just the user interface with the beautiful LCD screen that sits wherever you desire - light and easy to move around. Perhaps it's a wireless link to the main box that does all the heavy lifting.
I am probably wrong though.
Added some processing to the image to pull contrast up....
(https://imgur.com/nvezf7r.jpg)
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A little bit of processing.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1489720;image)
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Given the weight and (in)flexible nature of many probes, how do Tek recommend that is attached to the bench?
More to the point, actually using the scope and pressing the buttons...
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Given the weight and (in)flexible nature of many probes, how do Tek recommend that is attached to the bench?
More to the point, actually using the scope and pressing the buttons...
Doesn't "next gen" imply gesture or voice control using ML?
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looks like a Micsig , probably with prohibitive costs
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Given the weight and (in)flexible nature of many probes, how do Tek recommend that is attached to the bench?
More to the point, actually using the scope and pressing the buttons...
Doesn't "next gen" imply gesture or voice control using ML?
They called all their other new 3-6 series Next Gen too.
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I wonder if it will have a faster processor than their series 3 and 4. In my evaluations in 2019 (and later re-confirmed by their FAE earlier this year), the GUI of these two series still take quite a penalty with anything else put on screen, such as FFT, decoding, etc.
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Most 'scopes are just a single PCB these days so making them thin is a logical step.
The power supply is probably external.
It would be idiotic to make it so thin that it requires an external power supply. This isn't a TV set that needs to appeal to aesthetically minded housewives, it's a tool for professional engineers.
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I wonder if it will have a faster processor than their series 3 and 4. In my evaluations in 2019 (and later re-confirmed by their FAE earlier this year), the GUI of these two series still take quite a penalty with anything else put on screen, such as FFT, decoding, etc.
Thats still true. Even moving cursors with the knob is annoyingly slow at 4 Series. Really nice concept and functionality of the scope but somehow ruined by the lagging GUI and poor responsiveness.
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It would be idiotic to make it so thin that it requires an external power supply. This isn't a TV set that needs to appeal to aesthetically minded housewives, it's a tool for professional engineers.
So why make it thin? It's obviously going to be less stable that way.
We'll see when it's released. :popcorn:
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Doesn't "next gen" imply gesture or voice control using ML?
Can you imagine how annoying voice control would be in a lab with a bunch of other techs or a quite cubicle farm? Especially if you had several other scopes nearby.
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Doesn't "next gen" imply gesture or voice control using ML?
Can you imagine how annoying voice control would be in a lab with a bunch of other techs or a quite cubicle farm? Especially if you had several other scopes nearby.
I think it would be mostly offended at the language based on the labs I've worked in if it had that feature.
As for the implications of "next gen", if we restrict the thinking to entry to mid-range Tek lines this roughly means the same miserable memory depth, a shiny new set of plastics, possibly a different MCU, a 20% price increase, a matching logo rebrand and hoards of people huffing and heading to Keysight, Rigol or Siglent depending on the ratio of arm length to pocket length they have.
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Doesn't "next gen" imply gesture or voice control using ML?
Can you imagine how annoying voice control would be in a lab with a bunch of other techs or a quite cubicle farm? Especially if you had several other scopes nearby.
It might be the equivalent of something I've always fantasised about doing. Come up behind somebody and say "format sea colon return yes return".
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Doesn't "next gen" imply gesture or voice control using ML?
Can you imagine how annoying voice control would be in a lab with a bunch of other techs or a quite cubicle farm? Especially if you had several other scopes nearby.
I think it would be mostly offended at the language based on the labs I've worked in if it had that feature.
"Press the red tit" "No, this scope not that scope, you tit". But that would need gesture recognition too.
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It would be idiotic to make it so thin that it requires an external power supply. This isn't a TV set that needs to appeal to aesthetically minded housewives, it's a tool for professional engineers.
So why make it thin? It's obviously going to be less stable that way.
We'll see when it's released. :popcorn:
Depends how you do it :popcorn:
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When one rises, one must also fall. Guess which scope model this is going to replace...
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Something 3-series-ish. Similar price range, maybe even cheaper. That's my bet.
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When one rises, one must also fall. Guess which scope model this is going to replace...
Have any scopes been on special offer at Tek recently? That's usually a good hint.
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There was very good deal on 3 Series MDO - expired 1 April 2022. You could save like 61% |O
I'm pissed we missed that one, you could get almost fully loaded 350MHz for a price of 200MHz
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I wonder if it will have a faster processor than their series 3 and 4. In my evaluations in 2019 (and later re-confirmed by their FAE earlier this year), the GUI of these two series still take quite a penalty with anything else put on screen, such as FFT, decoding, etc.
Thats still true. Even moving cursors with the knob is annoyingly slow at 4 Series. Really nice concept and functionality of the scope but somehow ruined by the lagging GUI and poor responsiveness.
Yes confirm, I have the 4 series, it is extremely slow. And remote web control is impossible to use
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Yes confirm, I have the 4 series, it is extremely slow. And remote web control is impossible to use
God damn. And I was planning to get 4 series for our lab as I was thinking my RTB2004 is laggy |O
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I wonder if it will have a faster processor than their series 3 and 4. In my evaluations in 2019 (and later re-confirmed by their FAE earlier this year), the GUI of these two series still take quite a penalty with anything else put on screen, such as FFT, decoding, etc.
Thats still true. Even moving cursors with the knob is annoyingly slow at 4 Series. Really nice concept and functionality of the scope but somehow ruined by the lagging GUI and poor responsiveness.
Yes confirm, I have the 4 series, it is extremely slow. And remote web control is impossible to use
I don't have a 4 series to comfirm. I presume the 3 series would be the same as the 4? I haven't really used any of the new 3/4/5/6 series.
What's the thing(s) that slow it down the most?
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Something 3-series-ish. Similar price range, maybe even cheaper. That's my bet.
Previous speculation:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-tektronix-3-series-mdo/msg2570811/#msg2570811 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-tektronix-3-series-mdo/msg2570811/#msg2570811)
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I wonder if it will have a faster processor than their series 3 and 4. In my evaluations in 2019 (and later re-confirmed by their FAE earlier this year), the GUI of these two series still take quite a penalty with anything else put on screen, such as FFT, decoding, etc.
Thats still true. Even moving cursors with the knob is annoyingly slow at 4 Series. Really nice concept and functionality of the scope but somehow ruined by the lagging GUI and poor responsiveness.
Yes confirm, I have the 4 series, it is extremely slow. And remote web control is impossible to use
I don't have a 4 series to comfirm. I presume the 3 series would be the same as the 4? I haven't really used any of the new 3/4/5/6 series.
What's the thing(s) that slow it down the most?
In my evaluation, using simple measurements already had a palpable penalty, but still quite workable. Adding decoding or any processing like FFT (I don't recall if I tested simple math) brought such a drag to responsiveness that it severely handicapped usability. Think of a PC with mechanical drive and low memory, where the intense disk swap makes mundane actions such as accessing a menu or closing a window to take several seconds to react to the mouse click while the operation itself executes in a somewhat jagged slow motion.
I think they created the 6 series and started chopping off memory and processor power to create the product segmentation. In my experience they either did not test well their products, did not listen to feedback (common in product dev) or had a bunch of yes men in the room that thought the Tek brand would carry such flaws.
A lost opportunity indeed.
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Afaik 5 and 6 series have different processors. For those a Windows option is also available while its not for 3 and 4.
I guess for 3 and 4 some older hardware is reused which is not really capable for todays expectations to a GUI.
Series 3 had a special offer for more than a year. You could get the MDO34 with 350MHz and almost all options for 5-6k€ plus tax. But thats not available anymore.
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Tek 4 has a cpu "AM5728 Sitara"
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Afaik 5 and 6 series have different processors. For those a Windows option is also available while its not for 3 and 4.
Tek 4 has a cpu "AM5728 Sitara"
Interesting. Indeed I had forgotten this difference, which was well advertised at the time.
The AM5728 is a reasonably capable multicore processor that runs Linux but it is limited to 2GB of RAM, which might explain the delays (disk swapping perhaps).
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Afaik 5 and 6 series have different processors. For those a Windows option is also available while its not for 3 and 4.
Tek 4 has a cpu "AM5728 Sitara"
Interesting. Indeed I had forgotten this difference, which was well advertised at the time.
The AM5728 is a reasonably capable multicore processor that runs Linux but it is limited to 2GB of RAM, which might explain the delays (disk swapping perhaps).
I don't think the problem is the RAM
I did a test, when the oscilloscope is running I have the CPU that runs at 98% and heats up to 80 °
I run the "top" command from the terminal
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Ah the problem be software engineers then. As always :-DD
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Ah the problem be software engineers then. As always :-DD
The neverending rivalry... :-DD
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And remote web control is impossible to use
It's pretty slick ;)
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And remote web control is impossible to use
It's pretty slick ;)
Let's see how "next gen" it is compared to...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_y8Brom708 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_y8Brom708)
If it can't browse EEVBLOG forums then I'm not convinced. :popcorn:
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it has batteries. think of it as a low bandwidth hand held scope.
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And remote web control is impossible to use
It's pretty slick ;)
Let's see how "next gen" it is compared to...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_y8Brom708 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_y8Brom708)
If it can't browse EEVBLOG forums then I'm not convinced. :popcorn:
That music |O
Real scopes don't have web browsers.
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It's pretty schmick.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1491493;image)
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It's pretty schmick.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1491493;image)
LOL!
All I can say about this new product is... Xx xx xxx xx xxx xxxxxxx xxx xxxxxxxx xxxx x'xx xxxx xx x xxxx xxxx.
(Sorry, all comments are redacted until June 7/8)
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If its too light just add lead weight to the base.
Jeff
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Real scopes don't have web browsers.
You can read datasheets on it.
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If its too light just add lead weight to the base.
Jeff
Ah we have seen that methodology in production before :popcorn:
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Ah the problem be software engineers then. As always :-DD
The neverending rivalry... :-DD
It's not rivalry, they just have no clue... Most of the new gen (pun intended) programmers are learn by heart types. They memorize stuff the see on Internet without real understanding. And have very superficial knowledge.. Not all, but you don't have enough of good ones to run an industrial process that produces good code.
On top of that all of the modern methodologies are shit that is not oriented to making products that work, but to produce lots of visible "deliverables" so bosses see "the work".
I know a bank that forced a software vendor to sign a contract with penalties for bugs.. They actually offered to pay more for base maintenance then vendors asked but penalties for bugs. Sort of a reverse tips.. And lo and behold, number of bugs went down order of magnitude... Shocker..
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That’s about right. Have you ever tried recruiting software engineers who know what they are doing?
They stopped my code test at the last place because no one passed it. And there went the quality bar.
The same applies to semi-embedded stuff like scopes. The core will be off the shelf. The ADC and sampling side and mathematics will be handed to the top tier engineers. The rest will be tacked on my lowest bidding crack smoking monkeys and there you have an embedded system ready to ship.
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Meh. At least these won't slide across the bench when you attempt to put probes in it. :P :P :-DD
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/3dHbNh.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pm3dHbNhj)
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Real scopes don't have web browsers.
You can read datasheets on it.
Yup. Ideal for field work. Put the documentation on the instrument and the scope is all a field engineer needs to bring along.
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And remote web control is impossible to use
It's pretty slick ;)
Let's see how "next gen" it is compared to...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_y8Brom708 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_y8Brom708)
If it can't browse EEVBLOG forums then I'm not convinced. :popcorn:
That music |O
It's called "8-bit music".
Really! ;D
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Real scopes don't have web browsers.
You can read datasheets on it.
Yup. Ideal for field work. Put the documentation on the instrument and the scope is all a field engineer needs to bring along.
This is the worst idea I’ve ever heard of. Give the field engineer an iPad instead. That can be used at the same time, can be used to take notes on and isn’t constrained by a half arsed OS implementation they will inevitably deliver on cost on a scope.
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This is the worst idea I’ve ever heard of. Give the field engineer an iPad instead. That can be used at the same time, can be used to take notes on and isn’t constrained by a half arsed OS implementation they will inevitably deliver on cost on a scope.
They didn't "implement" an OS, it's Android. Android is Linux underneath, just like many other 'scopes these days.
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This is the worst idea I’ve ever heard of. Give the field engineer an iPad instead. That can be used at the same time, can be used to take notes on and isn’t constrained by a half arsed OS implementation they will inevitably deliver on cost on a scope.
They didn't "implement" an OS, it's Android. Android is Linux underneath, just like many other 'scopes these days.
I should have said "stack of crap on top of OS implementation" to be explicit. I mean it might be Android but that doesn't mean it's going to ship with a user interface that is usable for viewing documents both from a what's on the screen perspective, ergonomically speaking or even with the control methodology. And it doesn't mean that it's going to even ship with any extensibility at all. And it doesn't mean it isn't an insane proposition to start with as there are far far far better ways to solve the problem of viewing documents on field work than on the device you're probably working on at the same time with a size constrained display.
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it has batteries. think of it as a low bandwidth hand held scope.
so it's the replacement to the TBS series? Their guy at a fair mentioned they were to come out "soon", if was short before the MDO series was released
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Heard from tektronix guy that he had chance to play with it past 3 days and he liked it.
And that they made an effort to optimize for fluent working gui. Also that they still work on series 4 to improve responsiveness.
Seems like we might get something very exciting.
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The same applies to semi-embedded stuff like scopes. The core will be off the shelf. The ADC and sampling side and mathematics will be handed to the top tier engineers. The rest will be tacked on my lowest bidding crack smoking monkeys and there you have an embedded system ready to ship.
T'was always thus.
A few decades ago the equivalent was to get the newly qualified PFY (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=PFY) to design the PSU. Guess which bits caused the trouble?
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Also that they still work on series 4 to improve responsiveness.
Improve by HW or SW update? Could imagine they make it as 4B, sell a usable GUI as new feature and existing owners of 4 are still screwed.
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so you take a processor, slap a full blown server-grade os on it , install java to emulate a virtual processor ... then build a custom UI on top of that...
anybody see what is wrong with this ? lipstick and hats on a pig
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Heard from tektronix guy that he had chance to play with it past 3 days and he liked it.
And that they made an effort to optimize for fluent working gui. Also that they still work on series 4 to improve responsiveness.
Seems like we might get something very exciting.
Was that a joke? I can never tell online....
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Real scopes don't have web browsers.
You can read datasheets on it.
Yup. Ideal for field work. Put the documentation on the instrument and the scope is all a field engineer needs to bring along.
This is the worst idea I’ve ever heard of. Give the field engineer an iPad instead. That can be used at the same time, can be used to take notes on and isn’t constrained by a half arsed OS implementation they will inevitably deliver on cost on a scope.
Have you ever seen equipment that has been out with field engineers? It is beaten to crap in no-time. An ipad wouldn't last a week. And the more you need to drag along, the worst things get.
Or think education. If you look at recent offerings from Tektronix, Keysight or R&S you'll see they also offer course work on the oscilloscope itself. https://www.tek.com/en/video/product-features/facilitate-student-learning-with-built-in-courseware-on-the-tbs1000c-oscilloscope (https://www.tek.com/en/video/product-features/facilitate-student-learning-with-built-in-courseware-on-the-tbs1000c-oscilloscope) BTW: That courseware module can also be used to put field testing guides onto an oscilloscope to guide field engineers through testing / troubleshooting an installation.
All in all a measurement device that can be used to access documents and internet is really handy to have with you in the field.
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Have you ever seen equipment that has been out with field engineers? It is beaten to crap in no-time. An ipad wouldn't last a week ...
Then how is an expensive instrument going to survive being beaten to crap?
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Given how positively surprised I was at just how good the Micsig tablet scope was (especially for the money), I'm curious to see the big budget version.
Have you ever seen equipment that has been out with field engineers? It is beaten to crap in no-time. An ipad wouldn't last a week.
Heh, I dunno, iPad survives toddler attacks pretty darn well :-DD
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Real scopes don't have web browsers.
You can read datasheets on it.
Yup. Ideal for field work. Put the documentation on the instrument and the scope is all a field engineer needs to bring along.
This is the worst idea I’ve ever heard of. Give the field engineer an iPad instead. That can be used at the same time, can be used to take notes on and isn’t constrained by a half arsed OS implementation they will inevitably deliver on cost on a scope.
Have you ever seen equipment that has been out with field engineers? It is beaten to crap in no-time. An ipad wouldn't last a week. And the more you need to drag along, the worst things get.
Or think education. If you look at recent offerings from Tektronix, Keysight or R&S you'll see they also offer course work on the oscilloscope itself. https://www.tek.com/en/video/product-features/facilitate-student-learning-with-built-in-courseware-on-the-tbs1000c-oscilloscope (https://www.tek.com/en/video/product-features/facilitate-student-learning-with-built-in-courseware-on-the-tbs1000c-oscilloscope) BTW: That courseware module can also be used to put field testing guides onto an oscilloscope to guide field engineers through testing / troubleshooting an installation.
All in all a measurement device that can be used to access documents and internet is really handy to have with you in the field.
Last place I worked had 10,000 iPads out in the field with the lowest aggregate failure rate of any device. They take one hell of a beating believe me and are incredibly robust. Way more robust than any scope on the market.
The courseware module is absolute dog shit on the TBS scopes. I had one in for a bit. It's a box tick feature to get through university and college buyers and absolutely no use for the intended purpose.
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so you take a processor, slap a full blown server-grade os on it , install java to emulate a virtual processor ... then build a custom UI on top of that...
anybody see what is wrong with this ? lipstick and hats on a pig
I'll note that in the 90s some HP and Tek test equipment was built on top of Smalltalk.
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Or think education. If you look at recent offerings from Tektronix, Keysight or R&S you'll see they also offer course work on the oscilloscope itself. https://www.tek.com/en/video/product-features/facilitate-student-learning-with-built-in-courseware-on-the-tbs1000c-oscilloscope (https://www.tek.com/en/video/product-features/facilitate-student-learning-with-built-in-courseware-on-the-tbs1000c-oscilloscope) BTW: That courseware module can also be used to put field testing guides onto an oscilloscope to guide field engineers through testing / troubleshooting an installation.
All in all a measurement device that can be used to access documents and internet is really handy to have with you in the field.
The courseware module is absolute dog shit on the TBS scopes. I had one in for a bit. It's a box tick feature to get through university and college buyers and absolutely no use for the intended purpose.
The courseware is just an example to show the general idea of turning an oscilloscope into a multi-function device is not as outlandisch as you may think. In the past decades we have seen all kinds of new (alien) features on oscilloscopes that used to be seperate devices like logic analysis, protocol decoding, spectrum analysis, waveform generators, DMM, power analysis, network analysis, etc. So why not add being able to access documents and internet? Makes perfect sense to me; MicSig seems to think so as well.
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The courseware is just an example to show the general idea of turning an oscilloscope into a multi-function device is not as outlandisch as you may think. In the past decades we have seen all kinds of new (alien) features on oscilloscopes that used to be seperate devices like logic analysis, protocol decoding, spectrum analysis, waveform generators, DMM, power analysis, network analysis, etc. So why not add being able to access documents and internet? Makes perfect sense to me; MicSig seems to think so as well.
Sure all these "alien" features you mention are useful additions to a measurement instrument and make sense to have them in there, but I rather browse documentation or the internet on one or both of my big computer screens. Having the scopes documentation on it could be helpful but I find it easier if it is on paper or a separate device when I am operating the scope and not have to go back and forth between the documentation and the actual scope screen.
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Or think education. If you look at recent offerings from Tektronix, Keysight or R&S you'll see they also offer course work on the oscilloscope itself. https://www.tek.com/en/video/product-features/facilitate-student-learning-with-built-in-courseware-on-the-tbs1000c-oscilloscope (https://www.tek.com/en/video/product-features/facilitate-student-learning-with-built-in-courseware-on-the-tbs1000c-oscilloscope) BTW: That courseware module can also be used to put field testing guides onto an oscilloscope to guide field engineers through testing / troubleshooting an installation.
All in all a measurement device that can be used to access documents and internet is really handy to have with you in the field.
The courseware module is absolute dog shit on the TBS scopes. I had one in for a bit. It's a box tick feature to get through university and college buyers and absolutely no use for the intended purpose.
The courseware is just an example to show the general idea of turning an oscilloscope into a multi-function device is not as outlandisch as you may think. In the past decades we have seen all kinds of new (alien) features on oscilloscopes that used to be seperate devices like logic analysis, protocol decoding, spectrum analysis, waveform generators, DMM, power analysis, network analysis, etc. So why not add being able to access documents and internet? Makes perfect sense to me; MicSig seems to think so as well.
If that’s what you want buy a picoscope and work back to a usable oscilloscope not from an oscilloscope to a usable computer :-DD
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so you take a processor, slap a full blown server-grade os on it , install java to emulate a virtual processor ... then build a custom UI on top of that...
anybody see what is wrong with this ? lipstick and hats on a pig
It works for all those smartphones out there. :-//
I don't recall my Micsig ever slowing down because I turned on a feature, unlike the expensive Teks that people are complaining about here.
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Ah the problem be software engineers then. As always :-DD
The neverending rivalry... :-DD
It's not rivalry, they just have no clue... Most of the new gen (pun intended) programmers are learn by heart types. They memorize stuff the see on Internet without real understanding. And have very superficial knowledge.. Not all, but you don't have enough of good ones to run an industrial process that produces good code.
On top of that all of the modern methodologies are shit that is not oriented to making products that work, but to produce lots of visible "deliverables" so bosses see "the work".
To be honest, this same issue can be applicable to HW as well - slap a microcontroller to do absolutely every.single.function on the equipment with a bootstrap routine that scans all this and fails at the first sign of NACK due to a blown LED and you end up with a soup of über complex hardware.
so you take a processor, slap a full blown server-grade os on it , install java to emulate a virtual processor ... then build a custom UI on top of that...
anybody see what is wrong with this ? lipstick and hats on a pig
At least the server-grade OS is fully guaranteed to operate with a shiny interface that will become a green box on the upper management scorecard and it will be sold in the pamphlets as "increasing the synergy between fault diagnosis and cloud integration by means of the integrated web browser which allows to have the ultimate device information at the technician's fingertips, all in a compact package that features the latest in ultra-crisp 4k UHD 4-inch TFT-LCD technology display".
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it has batteries. think of it as a low bandwidth hand held scope.
so it's the replacement to the TBS series? Their guy at a fair mentioned they were to come out "soon", if was short before the MDO series was released
The TPS and THS models.
Google Tektronix MSO22, MSO24 for details.
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The latest models from Tek create 10x more posts, in the forum, before release date than after... 8)
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The latest models from Tek create 10x more posts, in the forum, before release date than after... 8)
Wait until they start posting on EEVblog from their scopes out in the field. Imagine how quiet it's going to be :-DD
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Wait until they start posting on EEVblog from their scopes out in the field. Imagine how quiet it's going to be :-DD
:-DD :-DD :-DD
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so you take a processor, slap a full blown server-grade os on it , install java to emulate a virtual processor ... then build a custom UI on top of that...
anybody see what is wrong with this ? lipstick and hats on a pig
I'll note that in the 90s some HP and Tek test equipment was built on top of Smalltalk.
don't diss that ! . the Alto ran smalltalk. that thing didn't even have a cpu ! it was all 74 series...
Look at the 54645 or 54622 series scopes. a simple 68000 processor. no Os. starts up in 2 seconds flat. turn a knob, push a button and it responds.
Same for the infiniium machines. (even the windows 95 ones). once the application loads the os is out of the way and the thing is reponsive
i can;t tell you how many times i have been frustratet at that super expenisve Lecroy Z6 machine. you turn the timebase know a bit too fast looking for right "speed" and the thing sits there zooming and "triggering" . irritating as hell.
That is my first test examining a scope. turn the timebase and see how fast it reacts. I'm ok if the machine has a boot time. scopes in a lab are left on 24/7 anyway. you want them temperature stable. but the UI has ot be responsive.
These 7500 series Tek scopes ran a java UI that was like molasses.
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so you take a processor, slap a full blown server-grade os on it , install java to emulate a virtual processor ... then build a custom UI on top of that...
anybody see what is wrong with this ? lipstick and hats on a pig
I'll note that in the 90s some HP and Tek test equipment was built on top of Smalltalk.
don't diss that ! . the Alto ran smalltalk. that thing didn't even have a cpu ! it was all 74 series...
Look at the 54645 or 54622 series scopes. a simple 68000 processor. no Os. starts up in 2 seconds flat. turn a knob, push a button and it responds.
Same for the infiniium machines. (even the windows 95 ones). once the application loads the os is out of the way and the thing is reponsive
i can;t tell you how many times i have been frustratet at that super expenisve Lecroy Z6 machine. you turn the timebase know a bit too fast looking for right "speed" and the thing sits there zooming and "triggering" . irritating as hell.
That is my first test examining a scope. turn the timebase and see how fast it reacts. I'm ok if the machine has a boot time. scopes in a lab are left on 24/7 anyway. you want them temperature stable. but the UI has ot be responsive.
These 7500 series Tek scopes ran a java UI that was like molasses.
Oh, I'm certainly not dissing using Smalltalk. In the case I'm familiar with, it was clearly chosen for very good reasons by hardware engineers that understood the abstractions and how it could benefit the product.
The Alto did, like all other computer, have a CPU.some CPUs are made out of germanium transistors and ferrite rings, others out of divide by 10 neon counters (dekatrons).
I'm looking at the first computer on which I used Smalltalk: an Apple Fat Mac with IMB RAM, one floppy drive, and no hard drive. Since it runs the non-JITted first Xerox Smalltalk, it is glacially slow. Nonetheless it was, in 1986, sufficient for me to like Objective-C and dislike/ignore C++ when they arrived.
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Or think education. If you look at recent offerings from Tektronix, Keysight or R&S you'll see they also offer course work on the oscilloscope itself. https://www.tek.com/en/video/product-features/facilitate-student-learning-with-built-in-courseware-on-the-tbs1000c-oscilloscope (https://www.tek.com/en/video/product-features/facilitate-student-learning-with-built-in-courseware-on-the-tbs1000c-oscilloscope) BTW: That courseware module can also be used to put field testing guides onto an oscilloscope to guide field engineers through testing / troubleshooting an installation.
All in all a measurement device that can be used to access documents and internet is really handy to have with you in the field.
The courseware module is absolute dog shit on the TBS scopes. I had one in for a bit. It's a box tick feature to get through university and college buyers and absolutely no use for the intended purpose.
The courseware is just an example to show the general idea of turning an oscilloscope into a multi-function device is not as outlandisch as you may think. In the past decades we have seen all kinds of new (alien) features on oscilloscopes that used to be seperate devices like logic analysis, protocol decoding, spectrum analysis, waveform generators, DMM, power analysis, network analysis, etc. So why not add being able to access documents and internet? Makes perfect sense to me; MicSig seems to think so as well.
You might be disappointed.
Do the 3/4/5/6 series do this?
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You might be disappointed.
Do the 3/4/5/6 series do this?
3/4 don't. Not sure about 5/6 with Windows option. I guess with windows you can install web browser / PDF reader
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Or think education. If you look at recent offerings from Tektronix, Keysight or R&S you'll see they also offer course work on the oscilloscope itself. https://www.tek.com/en/video/product-features/facilitate-student-learning-with-built-in-courseware-on-the-tbs1000c-oscilloscope (https://www.tek.com/en/video/product-features/facilitate-student-learning-with-built-in-courseware-on-the-tbs1000c-oscilloscope) BTW: That courseware module can also be used to put field testing guides onto an oscilloscope to guide field engineers through testing / troubleshooting an installation.
All in all a measurement device that can be used to access documents and internet is really handy to have with you in the field.
The courseware module is absolute dog shit on the TBS scopes. I had one in for a bit. It's a box tick feature to get through university and college buyers and absolutely no use for the intended purpose.
The courseware is just an example to show the general idea of turning an oscilloscope into a multi-function device is not as outlandisch as you may think. In the past decades we have seen all kinds of new (alien) features on oscilloscopes that used to be seperate devices like logic analysis, protocol decoding, spectrum analysis, waveform generators, DMM, power analysis, network analysis, etc. So why not add being able to access documents and internet? Makes perfect sense to me; MicSig seems to think so as well.
You might be disappointed.
Do the 3/4/5/6 series do this?
Doesn't matter. The point is that extra features that may not be strongly related to the core function of a piece of test equipment can be useful to some people. It is foolish to dismiss such features.
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Seems like Newark jumped the gun.
MIXED SIGNAL OSCILLOSCOPE: 2 ANALOG CHANNELS, 2.5GS/S SAMPLE RATE, 10MPTS RECORD LENGTH 350MHZ BANDWIDTH WITH P61398B PROBE UPGR
$6,890.00
https://www.newark.com/tektronix/mso22-2-bw-350-p6139b/mixed-signal-oscilloscope-2-analog/dp/32AK4982 (https://www.newark.com/tektronix/mso22-2-bw-350-p6139b/mixed-signal-oscilloscope-2-analog/dp/32AK4982)
MIXED SIGNAL OSCILLOSCOPE: 4 ANALOG CHANNELS, 2.5GS/S SAMPLE RATE, 10MPTS RECORD LENGTH 350MHZ BANDWIDTH WITH P61398B PROBE UPGR
$8,770.00
https://www.newark.com/tektronix/mso24-2-bw-350-p6139b/mixed-signal-oscilloscope-4-analog/dp/32AK4984 (https://www.newark.com/tektronix/mso24-2-bw-350-p6139b/mixed-signal-oscilloscope-4-analog/dp/32AK4984)
Seems kind of expensive if this is the MSO2000B replacement...
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You might be disappointed.
Do the 3/4/5/6 series do this?
3/4 don't. Not sure about 5/6 with Windows option. I guess with windows you can install web browser / PDF reader
I would assume so if it runs windows. A lot of high end scopes run windows so you can run Matlab and all sorts of engineering stuff on it as well.
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Seems like Newark jumped the gun.
MIXED SIGNAL OSCILLOSCOPE: 2 ANALOG CHANNELS, 2.5GS/S SAMPLE RATE, 10MPTS RECORD LENGTH 350MHZ BANDWIDTH WITH P61398B PROBE UPGR
$6,890.00
https://www.newark.com/tektronix/mso22-2-bw-350-p6139b/mixed-signal-oscilloscope-2-analog/dp/32AK4982 (https://www.newark.com/tektronix/mso22-2-bw-350-p6139b/mixed-signal-oscilloscope-2-analog/dp/32AK4982)
MIXED SIGNAL OSCILLOSCOPE: 4 ANALOG CHANNELS, 2.5GS/S SAMPLE RATE, 10MPTS RECORD LENGTH 350MHZ BANDWIDTH WITH P61398B PROBE UPGR
$8,770.00
https://www.newark.com/tektronix/mso24-2-bw-350-p6139b/mixed-signal-oscilloscope-4-analog/dp/32AK4984 (https://www.newark.com/tektronix/mso24-2-bw-350-p6139b/mixed-signal-oscilloscope-4-analog/dp/32AK4984)
Seems kind of expensive if this is the MSO2000B replacement...
Well the cats out of the bag, except for photos. But I've got you covered, here is the high res shot.
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Seems kind of expensive if this is the MSO2000B replacement...
It starts much lower than that.
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Doesn't matter. The point is that extra features that may not be strongly related to the core function of a piece of test equipment can be useful to some people. It is foolish to dismiss such features.
Not if your goal is to focus on what matters in a core product.
When you do product research with customers (which they did) you'll get literally every suggestion including the kitchen sink.
The art is deciding what's really important and what you should focus on.
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so you take a processor, slap a full blown server-grade os on it , install java to emulate a virtual processor ... then build a custom UI on top of that...
anybody see what is wrong with this ? lipstick and hats on a pig
It works for all those smartphones out there. :-//
I don't recall my Micsig ever slowing down because I turned on a feature, unlike the expensive Teks that people are complaining about here.
Wait until a lot of updates have been installed. Android just like Linux variants, Apple stuff and Windows slow down over time due to updates and garbage collection. And with the update rate you see now a days it might be within a year or two.
That is what annoys me these days, the amount of useless updates you get thrown at you. Especially google apps tend to have this, and why. What improvements are needed on a mail application? And what happens, the things you liked about it disappear for shit to return |O
On top of that all of the modern methodologies are shit that is not oriented to making products that work, but to produce lots of visible "deliverables" so bosses see "the work".
And this, to me, seems to be the underlying intent. "See how much work I did boss?" And with the boss being ignorant about technology he most likely is easily impressed.
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I would assume so if it runs windows. A lot of high end scopes run windows so you can run Matlab and all sorts of engineering stuff on it as well.
Plus a web browser and document viewer?
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I would assume so if it runs windows. A lot of high end scopes run windows so you can run Matlab and all sorts of engineering stuff on it as well.
Plus a web browser and document viewer?
On those Windows machines yes, usually you can.
But to be clear this new Tek 2 Series scope does not run windows nor have any ability to run apps or other OS applications.
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Doesn't matter. The point is that extra features that may not be strongly related to the core function of a piece of test equipment can be useful to some people. It is foolish to dismiss such features.
Not if your goal is to focus on what matters in a core product.
When you do product research with customers (which they did) you'll get literally every suggestion including the kitchen sink.
The art is deciding what's really important and what you should focus on.
Just so.
It it usually better to do one thing well rather than two things poorly.
There are exceptions, where it can make sense to put two adequate things in one enclosure. But those tend to be very specific special cases.
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Doesn't matter. The point is that extra features that may not be strongly related to the core function of a piece of test equipment can be useful to some people. It is foolish to dismiss such features.
Not if your goal is to focus on what matters in a core product.
When you do product research with customers (which they did) you'll get literally every suggestion including the kitchen sink.
The art is deciding what's really important and what you should focus on.
Just so.
It it usually better to do one thing well rather than two things poorly.
There are exceptions, where it can make sense to put two adequate things in one enclosure. But those tend to be very specific special cases.
Like multimeters? I don't know, those are kinda popular... :-DD
Joking aside, it really depends of what is adequate for certain job. For instance, if all you want to check if CPU crystal is oscillating at 10MHz and accuracy is not critical, scope internal frequency measurements are more than good enough. I also never bought timer/counter (I have counter) because I have a scope that has timing measurements that can go down in picosecond resolutions, with added benefit you don't fly blind...
Good 12 bit (or more) scope will be a good sampling RMS voltmeter with very large bandwidths... So I never got that specialized RMS meter..
I don't need to do any of these measurements to a calibration lab level, and really outstanding specialized instruments are not justified for me.
Modern scopes are next step multimeters.
And today's scopes can actually do many things well, if done right.. Of course, there is no need to put a TurboTax on a scope....
There has to be a focus as to what it is.
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Seems like Newark jumped the gun.
MIXED SIGNAL OSCILLOSCOPE: 2 ANALOG CHANNELS, 2.5GS/S SAMPLE RATE, 10MPTS RECORD LENGTH 350MHZ BANDWIDTH WITH P61398B PROBE UPGR
$6,890.00
https://www.newark.com/tektronix/mso22-2-bw-350-p6139b/mixed-signal-oscilloscope-2-analog/dp/32AK4982 (https://www.newark.com/tektronix/mso22-2-bw-350-p6139b/mixed-signal-oscilloscope-2-analog/dp/32AK4982)
MIXED SIGNAL OSCILLOSCOPE: 4 ANALOG CHANNELS, 2.5GS/S SAMPLE RATE, 10MPTS RECORD LENGTH 350MHZ BANDWIDTH WITH P61398B PROBE UPGR
$8,770.00
https://www.newark.com/tektronix/mso24-2-bw-350-p6139b/mixed-signal-oscilloscope-4-analog/dp/32AK4984 (https://www.newark.com/tektronix/mso24-2-bw-350-p6139b/mixed-signal-oscilloscope-4-analog/dp/32AK4984)
Seems kind of expensive if this is the MSO2000B replacement...
It says "WITH P61398B PROBE". I guess this could mean no TekVPI Interface? Wouldn't buy a scope where we can not even use the Tektronix current probes and differential probes. Or is it just cost saving not to provide TPP0500 with the scope?
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Seems like Newark jumped the gun.
As usual...
MSO24 2-BW-70-DB-DDU-DEMO DEMO-MSO24 OSCILLOSCOPE 70MHZ BANDWIDTH, 4CH WITH DEMO BOARD (https://www.newark.com/tektronix/mso24-2-bw-70-db-ddu-demo/demo-mso24-oscilloscope-70mhz/dp/33AK0579) $3,040.00
MSO22 2-BW-350:2-P6139B MIXED SIGNAL OSCILLOSCOPE: 2 ANALOG CHANNELS, 2.5GS/S SAMPLE RATE, 10MPTS RECORD LENGTH 350MHZ $6.890
MSO22 2-BW-500:2-P6139B MIXED SIGNAL OSCILLOSCOPE: 2 ANALOG CHANNELS, 2.5GS/S SAMPLE RATE, 10MPTS RECORD LENGTH 500MHZ $9.270
MSO24 2-BW-350:2-P6139B MIXED SIGNAL OSCILLOSCOPE: 4 ANALOG CHANNELS, 2.5GS/S SAMPLE RATE, 10MPTS RECORD LENGTH 350MHZ $8.770
MSO24 2-BW-500:2-P6139B MIXED SIGNAL OSCILLOSCOPE: 4 ANALOG CHANNELS, 2.5GS/S SAMPLE RATE, 10MPTS RECORD LENGTH 500MHZ $11.300
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Some good sleuthing there.
Ultimately that pricing is good for Siglent at least :popcorn:
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If this Tek's replacement for the 2 series, the spec's are not really to write home about, cost wise that not exactly student friendly or even pro lab basic friendly :-//. Given the the past few years of overhyped and under performing 4/5/6 series scopes and the subsiquent revamps. Apart from the form factor and the hint the ' Home James, senic route, Hamilton style' possibility another missed oppotunity, or I am being a touch cynical here?
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Some good sleuthing there.
Ultimately that pricing is good for Siglent at least :popcorn:
MSO24 2-BW-500:2-P6139B MIXED SIGNAL OSCILLOSCOPE: 4 ANALOG CHANNELS, 2.5GS/S SAMPLE RATE, 10MPTS RECORD LENGTH 500MHZ $11.300
For that sort of coin the 12" display 2 GHz SDS6204A with 500 Mpts blows it outta the water at under $10k.
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it has batteries. think of it as a low bandwidth hand held scope.
so it's the replacement to the TBS series? Their guy at a fair mentioned they were to come out "soon", if was short before the MDO series was released
The TPS and THS models.
Google Tektronix MSO22, MSO24 for details.
of course i meant to write TPS :palm:
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Doesn't matter. The point is that extra features that may not be strongly related to the core function of a piece of test equipment can be useful to some people. It is foolish to dismiss such features.
Not if your goal is to focus on what matters in a core product.
When you do product research with customers (which they did) you'll get literally every suggestion including the kitchen sink.
The art is deciding what's really important and what you should focus on.
Not quite; if you get features for free from the platform (OS) the oscilloscope is built on, it is less work to keep them available rather than blocking them. MicSig leveraged using Android to allow reading PDFs and browse web pages. The same with Windows based test equipment. Networking, running applications, printing support, etc comes for free. IOW: the extra features are just gravy on top that need no development effort.
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Until the vendor abandons the software and then you have an organisational security problem on your hands...
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Until the vendor abandons the software and then you have an organisational security problem on your hands...
Beat me to it. Except that it is any one or more of the vendors with software in the machine.
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Until the vendor abandons the software and then you have an organisational security problem on your hands...
Beat me to it. Except that it is any one or more of the vendors with software in the machine.
No sane person would connect a piece of test equipment to a corporate network so it is a non-issue.
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No sane person would connect a piece of test equipment to a corporate network so it is a non-issue.
Don't go that road...
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Until the vendor abandons the software and then you have an organisational security problem on your hands...
Beat me to it. Except that it is any one or more of the vendors with software in the machine.
In the labs I work/worked, I lost count of the number of windows-based test equipment that is not network connected at all, regardless of their age: VNAs, scopes, audio analyzers, etc. Over the years, once the lab managers figured out the security nightmare caused by Windows-based equipment, they flattened out the field by unplugging everything at the demands of the IT department (hard to keep track of what was updated and what was not). Mind you, this was year after year of trying to make this work.
Even during the "free internet" years, rarely an equipment was connected due to constant requests for updates, which back then were just requests but nowadays with Windows 10/11 might even become full on updates in the background that could ruin your standalone test routine. Sure these can be disabled in LTSC versions of these OSes, but then IT will have to manage these machines and apply patches/updates.
So yes, while the concept of internet access works for the lone wolf or the small organization, large groups and corporations will not see them come to fruition.
For Linux/Android the updates can work differently as there is no forced updates in the background and usually updates do not require a restart. However, LTS distros last about 5~6 years which is a fraction of the typical lifetime of test equipment.
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Doesn't matter. The point is that extra features that may not be strongly related to the core function of a piece of test equipment can be useful to some people. It is foolish to dismiss such features.
Not if your goal is to focus on what matters in a core product.
When you do product research with customers (which they did) you'll get literally every suggestion including the kitchen sink.
The art is deciding what's really important and what you should focus on.
Just so.
It it usually better to do one thing well rather than two things poorly.
There are exceptions, where it can make sense to put two adequate things in one enclosure. But those tend to be very specific special cases.
Like multimeters? I don't know, those are kinda popular... :-DD
They should do Vac, Vdc, resistance well; current is optional since the power dissipation in the resistor often causes, ahem, "thermal drift" problems.
They are unlikely to do capacitance and frequency well, since that the former is many-valued and the latter would require an extra OCXO.
Joking aside, it really depends of what is adequate for certain job. For instance, if all you want to check if CPU crystal is oscillating at 10MHz and accuracy is not critical, scope internal frequency measurements are more than good enough.
Indeed, but for that you probably don't even need a frequency counter - just use a diode, a couple of capacitors and a voltmeter :)
I also never bought timer/counter (I have counter) because I have a scope that has timing measurements that can go down in picosecond resolutions, with added benefit you don't fly blind...
Good 12 bit (or more) scope will be a good sampling RMS voltmeter with very large bandwidths... So I never got that specialized RMS meter..
I don't need to do any of these measurements to a calibration lab level, and really outstanding specialized instruments are not justified for me.
Modern scopes are next step multimeters.
And today's scopes can actually do many things well, if done right.. Of course, there is no need to put a TurboTax on a scope....
There has to be a focus as to what it is.
Those scopes/LAs/multimeters based on WinXP or which assume your browser contains Java[1] are a pain in the backside for the entire organisation. Both from a security PoV and from a keep-it-working PoV.
Or, for example, a car with lots of mission critical computers and options for air freshioners of all things (inhale your VOCs here!).
[1] e.g. 8 year old Agilent 34410A!
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Joking aside, it really depends of what is adequate for certain job. For instance, if all you want to check if CPU crystal is oscillating at 10MHz and accuracy is not critical, scope internal frequency measurements are more than good enough.
Indeed, but for that you probably don't even need a frequency counter - just use a diode, a couple of capacitors and a voltmeter :)
Yes you could check if something oscillates... With scope you can actually check if someone set PLL to 10MHz or 20 MHz.. 6-8 digits of frequency is plenty for many tasks...
I also never bought timer/counter (I have counter) because I have a scope that has timing measurements that can go down in picosecond resolutions, with added benefit you don't fly blind...
Good 12 bit (or more) scope will be a good sampling RMS voltmeter with very large bandwidths... So I never got that specialized RMS meter..
I don't need to do any of these measurements to a calibration lab level, and really outstanding specialized instruments are not justified for me.
Modern scopes are next step multimeters.
And today's scopes can actually do many things well, if done right.. Of course, there is no need to put a TurboTax on a scope....
There has to be a focus as to what it is.
Those scopes/LAs/multimeters based on WinXP or which assume your browser contains Java[1] are a pain in the backside for the entire organisation. Both from a security PoV and from a keep-it-working PoV.
Or, for example, a car with lots of mission critical computers and options for air freshioners of all things (inhale your VOCs here!).
[1] e.g. 8 year old Agilent 34410A!
That is not a statement about usefulness of scope features or capability but a statement of manufacturer's incompetence..... On which we agree..
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No sane person would connect a piece of test equipment to a corporate network so it is a non-issue.
It can be argued how sane the people that do it are, but suffice to say people connect test equipment to corporate networks ALL THE TIME. I don't think I've ever worked somewhere that had test equipment and didn't connect at least some of it to the corporate network.
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No sane person would connect a piece of test equipment to a corporate network so it is a non-issue.
It can be argued how sane the people that do it are, but suffice to say people connect test equipment to corporate networks ALL THE TIME. I don't think I've ever worked somewhere that had test equipment and didn't connect at least some of it to the corporate network.
I agree. The phrase "corporate network" is misleading here. It sounds like there is one corporate subnet that is sensitive and secure and things shouldn't be connected there unless they are secured to level of PCI-DSS, HIPAA and FedRAMP.....
Corporate network is a set of many different subnets with different levels of security, connectivity etc...
Test dept might have separate little T&M network not connected to LAB1 or LAB2 T&M network. And all of that separated from SAP.. They would be separate VLAN and separated by firewalls..
So sure people would connect T&M equipment to the network where there is a workflow need for it. In those places IT will make it work instead of telling you "you cannot connect that to OUR network". It is not their network, they are just people paid to keep network running, the way business needs it..
All of that in addition to what has been said many times before: If scope is running some old OS that has known vulnerabilities, it is not scope that is dangerous to the network, but vice versa: if network gets attacked, patched PCs will not be compromised but scope OS will.. But that is a problem only if you already have a breach or internal actor. Which means you have bigger problems.
Problem with that is that there are usually no organizational provisions to perform antimalware procedures on scopes by team that is doing that on PCs, and scope users are not it......
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Doesn't "next gen" imply gesture or voice control using ML?
Next gen means they haven't had a genuinely exciting announcement for some time, and anything new has to be pushed as hard as possible.
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What are Tektronix scopes like nowadays? Why should I buy them as a non-hobbyist? What are their advantages against Keysight, LeCroy or Rohde&Schwarz?
I wonder what series is to be replaced by the Next Gen Tek scope... https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes (https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes)
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What are Tektronix scopes like nowadays? Why should I buy them as a non-hobbyist? What are their advantages against Keysight, LeCroy or Rohde&Schwarz?
I wonder what series is to be replaced by the Next Gen Tek scope... https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes (https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes)
I suppose the MSO/DPO 2000 series. AFAIK there have been on the market for at least a decade now. But I'd say that at this moment the oscilloscopes offered by Tektronix don't bring much compared to the offerings from Keysight, LeCroy or Rohde&Schwarz.
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What are Tektronix scopes like nowadays? Why should I buy them as a non-hobbyist? What are their advantages against Keysight, LeCroy or Rohde&Schwarz?
I wonder what series is to be replaced by the Next Gen Tek scope... https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes (https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes)
Tek scopes all start heavily overpriced for the features, probably reaching a more competitive pricing on the 5 and 6 series (I don't have a need for these series' specs, so I don't know precisely). For a non-hobbyist you would look for service and repairability, which would be head-to-head with other A-brands.
It might be an indication or just anecdotal evidence, but all the most recent purchases I saw are LeCroys and R&S, with the occasional Keysight UXR for the specialized need.
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But I'd say that at this moment the oscilloscopes offered by Tektronix don't bring much compared to the offerings from Keysight, LeCroy or Rohde&Schwarz.
If they wouldn't ruin it with the slow GUI the 4 series would be really nice in my opinion. Not for the list price but Tek often has special offers which make them really competitive. Our 6 Channel scope with all options was cheaper than than a Keysight MSOX3000 with all options at that time. So if you need 6 channels there is no competition in that price range. I also like the Flexchannel design and the spectrum view where you can set the FFT independent from the settings of the time domain. The large display is also nice while decoding a serial bus for example.
But without special offers and if 4 channels are all you need there are better options in my opinion. The last scope we bought wasn't a Tek as well.
The 3 series had really competitive pricing as well for a long time. MDO34 with 350MHz and almost all options was available around 5k plus tax. But right now these special offers are gone. I guess either because there is no need for special offers while lead times are many months or because the new series is in the same price range. At least if the prices posted here in the Newark links are correct.
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New series is indeed going to be 2 series scope. So it's definately gonna have some limitations.
Sadly no TekVPI so is a no no for me. However possibility to be battery powered is gonna be great.
I hope they will put effort do optimize series 4 firmware to make it work "descent".
I'm torn between 3 and 4 series. Heard, that 3 series GUI is better responsive that 4 series.
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Back in the analog days Tektronix was clearly the leader in oscilloscope design. But since the transition to digital and the corporate buy out they have IMHO fallen to about the bottom of the pack. hp-Agilent-Keysight has clearly weathered that corporate upheaval in a much more secure position. If I were in the market for a high dollar DSO (I'm not) I don't think Tek would even appear on my list of choices.
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Did anybody ever get fired for buying a Tek?
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Did anybody ever get fired for buying a Tek?
Sort of the same as did anyone ever get fired for buying IBM?
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Did anybody ever get fired for buying a Tek?
Sort of the same as did anyone ever get fired for buying IBM?
IBM Watson, probably yes :-DD
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Did anybody ever get fired for buying a Tek?
Sort of the same as did anyone ever get fired for buying IBM?
IBM Watson, probably yes :-DD
Yes, that could put you in jeopardy. ;D
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Back when I was a PFY in the early 70's the perceived wisdom in the labs where I worked was simple. Tek for scopes and TV (analogue - there was no digital) test signal generation and measurement equipment. HP for frequency domain gear. Price wasn't an important consideration - yes it was one of those places.
I did a lot of design of baseband analogue video gear and TTL circuitry using a Tek453 with the TV sync option. Loved that fine trace and the compact size compared to the 547s. (Though the 545s and 547s were excellent for keeping the lab warm on cold winter days!) Later I had the opportunity to switch to a 465 but that had a thick trace. I said "No thankyou" and kept to the 453 until I was promoted away from hands-on work.
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Back in the analog days Tektronix was clearly the leader in oscilloscope design. But since the transition to digital and the corporate buy out they have IMHO fallen to about the bottom of the pack. hp-Agilent-Keysight has clearly weathered that corporate upheaval in a much more secure position. If I were in the market for a high dollar DSO (I'm not) I don't think Tek would even appear on my list of choices.
DSO yes, but Tek still has some pretty good instruments that are well worth buying. For example their function generators, frequency counters and bench DMMs.
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Back in the analog days Tektronix was clearly the leader in oscilloscope design. But since the transition to digital and the corporate buy out they have IMHO fallen to about the bottom of the pack. hp-Agilent-Keysight has clearly weathered that corporate upheaval in a much more secure position. If I were in the market for a high dollar DSO (I'm not) I don't think Tek would even appear on my list of choices.
DSO yes, but Tek still has some pretty good instruments that are well worth buying. For example their function generators, frequency counters and bench DMMs.
Well sure, if you include the forced marriage of Tektronix/Keithley and to a lesser extent Fluke then I would agree. But Tektronix as a stand alone? Nope. :--
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To nitpick: Tektronix has a long history of arbitrary waveform generators. These didn't come from Fluke / Keithley.
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Doesn't matter. The point is that extra features that may not be strongly related to the core function of a piece of test equipment can be useful to some people. It is foolish to dismiss such features.
Not if your goal is to focus on what matters in a core product.
When you do product research with customers (which they did) you'll get literally every suggestion including the kitchen sink.
The art is deciding what's really important and what you should focus on.
Not quite; if you get features for free from the platform (OS) the oscilloscope is built on, it is less work to keep them available rather than blocking them. MicSig leveraged using Android to allow reading PDFs and browse web pages. The same with Windows based test equipment. Networking, running applications, printing support, etc comes for free. IOW: the extra features are just gravy on top that need no development effort.
As someone else pointed out, the 3 and 4 series don't have this capability, probably deliberately, and the 5 & 6 series have Windows only as an option.
No surprises that the 2 series doesn't have it either.
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Back in the analog days Tektronix was clearly the leader in oscilloscope design. But since the transition to digital and the corporate buy out they have IMHO fallen to about the bottom of the pack. hp-Agilent-Keysight has clearly weathered that corporate upheaval in a much more secure position. If I were in the market for a high dollar DSO (I'm not) I don't think Tek would even appear on my list of choices.
Tek absolutely pioneered the modern digital scope era with the TDS200 series that dominated for probably a decade, and even still commands a decent price the days used. They set the standard for real time sample rate "analog like" digital oscilloscopes.
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What are Tektronix scopes like nowadays? Why should I buy them as a non-hobbyist? What are their advantages against Keysight, LeCroy or Rohde&Schwarz?
I wonder what series is to be replaced by the Next Gen Tek scope... https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes (https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes)
It's not hard to guess.
The MSO2000 was released in 2008
https://www.coleparmer.in/press-release/new-tektronix-dpo-mso2000-series-oscilloscopes-now-available-from-davis-instruments (https://www.coleparmer.in/press-release/new-tektronix-dpo-mso2000-series-oscilloscopes-now-available-from-davis-instruments)
The TBS series are pretty new and fill a very specific niche educational market.
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Back in the analog days Tektronix was clearly the leader in oscilloscope design. But since the transition to digital and the corporate buy out they have IMHO fallen to about the bottom of the pack. hp-Agilent-Keysight has clearly weathered that corporate upheaval in a much more secure position. If I were in the market for a high dollar DSO (I'm not) I don't think Tek would even appear on my list of choices.
DSO yes, but Tek still has some pretty good instruments that are well worth buying. For example their function generators, frequency counters and bench DMMs.
What does Keysight have that matches the 8 channel Tek 5 & 6 series?
They don't even have a 6 channel to match the 4 series.
If you need more than 4 channels, you can also look at Yokogawa. The world doesn't end at Keysight.
But that wasn't the point of what med6753 and I wrote. For a general purpose DSO Tek just doesn't seem to receive a lot of love due to slow & sloppy UI on their higher end models. I have an AFG31000 waveform generator from Tektronix and while the functionality is rock solid, the UI could use some polishing. OTOH the TBS2000 series scope I use every now and then is fine for what it can do. If the new '2' series builds on the TBS2000 then it could be quite good.
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Back in the analog days Tektronix was clearly the leader in oscilloscope design. But since the transition to digital and the corporate buy out they have IMHO fallen to about the bottom of the pack. hp-Agilent-Keysight has clearly weathered that corporate upheaval in a much more secure position. If I were in the market for a high dollar DSO (I'm not) I don't think Tek would even appear on my list of choices.
DSO yes, but Tek still has some pretty good instruments that are well worth buying. For example their function generators, frequency counters and bench DMMs.
What does Keysight have that matches the 8 channel Tek 5 & 6 series?
They don't even have a 6 channel to match the 4 series.
If you need more than 4 channels, you can also look at Yokogawa. The world doesn't end at Keysight.
I forgot that Keysight have the EXR and MXR series for 8 channels.
But that wasn't the point of what med6753 and I wrote. For a general purpose DSO Tek just doesn't seem to receive a lot of love due to slow & sloppy UI.
Correct. They bet on new features over everyday performance and they lost the everyday use scope market. But they still probably do a sell a lot of them at a premium price.
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I forgot that Keysight have the EXR and MXR series for 8 channels.
That market may come under some pressure soon with 8ch SDS6000L headless units that can be networked for 512 analog channels total.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds6000l-2ghz-12bit-8-ch-(china-only)/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds6000l-2ghz-12bit-8-ch-(china-only)/)
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I forgot that Keysight have the EXR and MXR series for 8 channels.
That market may come under some pressure soon with 8ch SDS6000L headless units that can be networked for 512 analog channels total.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds6000l-2ghz-12bit-8-ch-(china-only)/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds6000l-2ghz-12bit-8-ch-(china-only)/)
Impressive.
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I forgot that Keysight have the EXR and MXR series for 8 channels.
That market may come under some pressure soon with 8ch SDS6000L headless units that can be networked for 512 analog channels total.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds6000l-2ghz-12bit-8-ch-(china-only)/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds6000l-2ghz-12bit-8-ch-(china-only)/)
Impressive.
Quite so although if development follows what was SDS6000 Pro that we only know in the west as SDS6000A it might a while yet before we see a SDS6000L variant in the west.
Their constant innovation must have the A brands wondering what they'll come up with next.
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Does the SDS6000L use LeCroy's 12 bit converters?
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Does the SDS6000L use LeCroy's 12 bit converters?
Sorry don't know for sure but I expect so just like the SDS6000 Pro that we only see in the west as a 8 bit 6kA with 5 bits of Hi-Res instead of 3 bits of ERES that all other SDS models use and some ESR sampling magic that we haven't seen before either.
I'll go sniffing as to when a western release is likely and maybe update the 6kL thread.
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Here's a bigger picture I pulled off the datasheet.
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Here's a bigger picture I pulled off the datasheet.
Welcome to the forum.
What is the screen size please ?
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Looks like they tried to copy Apple but were drunk :o
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Looks like they tried to copy Apple but were drunk :o
It's the new/old thing....multiple analysis windows.
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That thing doesn't tip over? Better attach some cables to it before use!
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Display
• 10.1-inch TFT color
• WXGA (1280 x 800) resolution
• Capacitive (multi-touch) touchscreen
Bandwidth
70 MHz, 100 MHz, 200 MHz, 350 MHz, and 500 MHz
Sample rate
• 2.5 GS/s Half channels
• 1.25 GS/s All channels
Record length
10 M points per channel
Vertical resolution
• 8 bits ADC
• Up to 16 bits in high-resolution mode
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Looks like the cat's well and truly out of the bag.
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That thing doesn't tip over? Better attach some cables to it before use!
Nope, the stand is actually one of the most impressive things.
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That thing doesn't tip over? Better attach some cables to it before use!
Nope, the stand is actually one of the most impressive things.
Why???
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That thing doesn't tip over? Better attach some cables to it before use!
Nope, the stand is actually one of the most impressive things.
Is the tilt adjustable Dave ?
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That thing doesn't tip over? Better attach some cables to it before use!
Nope, the stand is actually one of the most impressive things.
Is the tilt adjustable Dave ?
Does the base have velcro or a suction cup so you can press the screen or put probes into it without chasing it across the bench? :-//
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That thing doesn't tip over? Better attach some cables to it before use!
Nope, the stand is actually one of the most impressive things.
Why???
They've kept the BNCs very low on the unit, so they won't create much torque to tip the unit over. It seems odd they didn't keep the LAN socket low as well.
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Does the base have velcro or a suction cup so you can press the screen or put probes into it without chasing it across the bench? :-//
Literally the first thing I tested in my unboxing video, it doesn't slide no matter how hard you push.
BTW, the video is out there, you just have to guess the Youtube URL :P
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Does the base have velcro or a suction cup so you can press the screen or put probes into it without chasing it across the bench? :-//
Literally the first thing I tested in my unboxing video, it doesn't slide no matter how hard you push.
BTW, the video is out there, you just have to guess the Youtube URL :P
You big tease. :-DD OK, I will reserve judgment until I see your review. But at first glance the cat needs to go back into the bag. :scared:
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Does the base have velcro or a suction cup so you can press the screen or put probes into it without chasing it across the bench? :-//
Literally the first thing I tested in my unboxing video, it doesn't slide no matter how hard you push.
BTW, the video is out there, you just have to guess the Youtube URL :P
Are all of the front panel buttons capacitive touch so they only require a light tap, and not some horrible membrane buttons?
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Are all of the front panel buttons capacitive touch so they only require a light tap, and not some horrible membrane buttons?
Membrane.
You wouldn't want cap touch when hand holding it, you could quite easily accidently activate them.
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Display
• 10.1-inch TFT color
• WXGA (1280 x 800) resolution
• Capacitive (multi-touch) touchscreen
Bandwidth
70 MHz, 100 MHz, 200 MHz, 350 MHz, and 500 MHz
Sample rate
• 2.5 GS/s Half channels
• 1.25 GS/s All channels
Record length
10 M points per channel
Vertical resolution
• 8 bits ADC
• Up to 16 bits in high-resolution mode
I'll keep my TDS784D for now...
4 channel, 1GHz bandwidth, 4GS/s sample rate and 8M sample memory depth, all for less than $500 on the used market.
Sure it only has a 7" 640x480 colour CRT screen, but it has a floppy drive! :-DD
( /facetious mode :P )
Are all of the front panel buttons capacitive touch so they only require a light tap, and not some horrible membrane buttons?
Membrane.
You wouldn't want cap touch when hand holding it, you could quite easily accidently activate them.
Like a cheap Chinese IR remote control? I hope they make them feel nice and clicky..
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I hope they make them feel nice and clicky..
It's not a HP calculator.
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Literally the first thing I tested in my unboxing video, it doesn't slide no matter how hard you push.
Unlike my Siglent SDS1104X-E…
Is it heavy? What’s the case made of?
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Here's a bigger picture I pulled off the datasheet.
12MB 2 Series MSO Datasheet PDF is too large to attach. Grab a copy here:
https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/3723180.pdf (https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/3723180.pdf)
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(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qI28kKFJgCo/maxresdefault.jpg)
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To quote mighty boosh “elements of the past and future combined to make something not as good as either”
I reserve further judgement for the review but that looks like it’s really expensive and really easy to drop. I hope they sell TekCare with it and you can take it to Tek Store to get it repaired the same day.
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Oh, how out of date can they get:
Digital pattern generator (optional)
Serial protocol triggering and analysis (optional)
Digital voltmeter and frequency counter (optional)
Digital channels (optional)
--
Arbitrary function generator (optional)
Battery pack (optional)
Fair enough on those last two, but not really trying to compete with the opposition.
already guessed by Fungus:
External power supply
and the pain in my side:
"One-year software maintenance that provides access to new firmware releases with updates"
"Maintenance for software: Maintenance license offers access to any software updates within the active period"
no firmware for you!
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Oh, how out of date can they get:
Digital pattern generator (optional)
Serial protocol triggering and analysis (optional)
Digital voltmeter and frequency counter (optional)
Digital channels (optional)
--
Arbitrary function generator (optional)
Battery pack (optional)
Fair enough on those last two, but not really trying to compete with the opposition.
Their entire scope business is built around this model. Absolutely no surprises there at all. All of their major competitors like Keysight, R&S, and Lecroy do the same thing.
It's smart not to get into a race to the bottom when you are a top shelf player. You can always have specials bundling options.
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Are all of the front panel buttons capacitive touch so they only require a light tap, and not some horrible membrane buttons?
Membrane.
You wouldn't want cap touch when hand holding it, you could quite easily accidently activate them.
So the screen is a membrane screen, not a touch screen?
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I don't like the "Will be available in the future" options, or at least i don't get good vibes from that
I laugh at "TekCloud"
I hoped for isolated channels option because i actually like this form factor, in my mind i can see a lot of them in factory lines or workshop benches, either rack mounted or on VESA stand. Much more than the other "handheld" which are just really bulky (or with rather small screens) and usually with idiotic interfaces (RS scoperider comes to mind.. when i have the pleasure of using one i always get confused and press the wrong buttons) - and no, tautech i haven't had a chance to test the new siglent handhelds yet -
I am eager to look at the teardown video, i want to see how little space was left so that they couldn't add the optic fibre transceivers, or integrate a (smallish) battery beacuse the battery pack addon is... eh :D
overall i am impressed from tek, it looks really well done on paper.
Hope this will start a new wave of tablet scopes
Hope the other things (cloud, updates on subscription) don't catch on, but it may be too late already
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I like the design concept as it covers a lot of use cases....portable, battery powered, Toughbook type bumper protection when needed, VESA mount, tablet or bench use.
The remote PSU keeps size and weight down however fully powered for portable use with 2 Li-ion's bumps her up to a fairly hefty 8lbs which would be difficult to manage in one hand.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1494355)
One glaring thing is the recessed BNC's which might indicate only proprietary BNC connectors can be used which will be a big howling :--
Omissions from the datasheet are FFT pts ? :-//
Std 1 yr warranty = :--
Digital input channels (optional, available in future) < WTF is this future bit ? Out to customers for MSO development and feedback before we enable it ?
Anyways, looking forward to Dave putting it through its paces. :popcorn:
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Oh, how out of date can they get:
Digital pattern generator (optional)
Serial protocol triggering and analysis (optional)
Digital voltmeter and frequency counter (optional)
Digital channels (optional)
--
Arbitrary function generator (optional)
Battery pack (optional)
Fair enough on those last two, but not really trying to compete with the opposition.
Their entire scope business is built around this model. Absolutely no surprises there at all. All of their major competitors like Keysight, R&S, and Lecroy do the same thing.
It's smart not to get into a race to the bottom when you are a top shelf player. You can always have specials bundling options.
Well, in last 3000G series Keysight gives away basic protocols trigger decode...Also in 1000 series...
So some do realize that ship has sailed...
It looks fancy..
There are many features from their 3 series, large touch screen... I don't see it as a a handheld tablet type, it is too big for that, and battery dock is huge. I think this is more like office mobility thing, you can carry it around the office without looking for socket... By looking at featureset, it looks designed to target R&S RTB2000 series customers.. Wonder what the price will be.
All in all it seems like Tek is finally refreshing their range.. How successful it will be? We'll see..
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Oh, how out of date can they get:
Digital pattern generator (optional)
Serial protocol triggering and analysis (optional)
Digital voltmeter and frequency counter (optional)
Digital channels (optional)
Their entire scope business is built around this model. Absolutely no surprises there at all.
Sales reps can also use it to sweeten deals: "You buy 100 of them and I'll throw in the digital voltmeters for free..."
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Oh, how out of date can they get:
Digital pattern generator (optional)
Serial protocol triggering and analysis (optional)
Digital voltmeter and frequency counter (optional)
Digital channels (optional)
--
Arbitrary function generator (optional)
Battery pack (optional)
Fair enough on those last two, but not really trying to compete with the opposition.
Their entire scope business is built around this model. Absolutely no surprises there at all. All of their major competitors like Keysight, R&S, and Lecroy do the same thing.
It's smart not to get into a race to the bottom when you are a top shelf player. You can always have specials bundling options.
Well, in last 3000G series Keysight gives away basic protocols trigger decode...Also in 1000 series...
So some do realize that ship has sailed...
They have to because they are still milking a 12 year old ASIC with limited memory. Much harder to compete these days.
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I like the design concept as it covers a lot of use cases....portable, battery powered, Toughbook type bumper protection when needed, VESA mount, tablet or bench use.
That's the big selling point, different use cases. They have executed it very well.
Not for everyone, as usual, but it's pretty killer for those that need it.
One glaring thing is the recessed BNC's which might indicate only proprietary BNC connectors can be used which will be a big howling :--
Nope, normal probes and cables are fine.
Digital input channels (optional, available in future) < WTF is this future bit ? Out to customers for MSO development and feedback before we enable it ?
at present it does not have it, so I won't be able to test that.
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and no, tautech i haven't had a chance to test the new Siglent handhelds yet -
We'll have a demo unit coming in our next order but it's a month or 2 away yet then after a quick curious fiddle with it send it on down to Defpom for a review.....if you can wait that long.
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So the screen is a membrane screen, not a touch screen?
Screen is capacitive touch. Buttons are membrane.
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I like the design concept as it covers a lot of use cases....portable, battery powered, Toughbook type bumper protection when needed, VESA mount, tablet or bench use.
That's the big selling point, different use cases. They have executed it very well.
Not for everyone, as usual, but it's pretty killer for those that need it.
One glaring thing is the recessed BNC's which might indicate only proprietary BNC connectors can be used which will be a big howling :--
Nope, normal probes and cables are fine.
Digital input channels (optional, available in future) < WTF is this future bit ? Out to customers for MSO development and feedback before we enable it ?
at present it does not have it, so I won't be able to test that.
OK ordinary BNC's work. :phew:
Do you have a SPL2016 in the lab Dave as it appears the Tek P6316 MSO probe is almost identical to the SPL2016 Siglent use. If we look at the digital socket on the RHS it looks the same shape and size for the PCIE connector Siglent, LeCroy, some Rigol and existing Tek models use.
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You'll see in the datasheet the VNC capability. I was playing with it today and it's very nice :-+
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and no, tautech i haven't had a chance to test the new Siglent handhelds yet -
We'll have a demo unit coming in our next order but it's a month or 2 away yet then after a quick curious fiddle with it send it on down to Defpom for a review.....if you can wait that long.
Nah, i'll probably go say hi to the boys at one of the next faires and have a play there
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So the screen is a membrane screen, not a touch screen?
Screen is capacitive touch. Buttons are membrane.
Yup, which begs the question as to how valid this point is :"You wouldn't want cap touch when hand holding it, you could quite easily accidently activate them."
I'm unconvinced of the widescale benefit of it being handheld: one hand to hold it, one hand to hold the probe in place, one had to control it. Niche cases, yes, but not for most purposes.
The VESA mount on a moveable support looks more practical, but extended regular use can lead to upper-limb disorders. (Light pens - remember those - tended to lead to arm/shoulder problems, and trackballs to thumb problems)
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So the screen is a membrane screen, not a touch screen?
Screen is capacitive touch. Buttons are membrane.
Yup, which begs the question as to how valid this point is :"You wouldn't want cap touch when hand holding it, you could quite easily accidently activate them."
If you had capacitive front panel buttons as suggested it would be a complete PIA if you hand hold or grab the side and move it around.
The cap touch screen can be turned off if needed, button on the front for that.
I'm unconvinced of the widescale benefit of it being handheld: one hand to hold it, one hand to hold the probe in place, one had to control it. Niche cases, yes, but not for most purposes.
You generally wouldn't hand hold it, you'd take it with you somewhere and place it down. Being able to move your scope anywhere without dicking around with power, or simply disconnecting from the mains to prevent common mode noise pickup can be a big deal.
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and the pain in my side:
"One-year software maintenance that provides access to new firmware releases with updates"
"Maintenance for software: Maintenance license offers access to any software updates within the active period"
no firmware for you!
Totally unacceptable, especially in a new product that will have firmware issues that need fixing. I assume at least the first year will be included ?
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Totally unacceptable, especially in a new product that will have firmware issues that need fixing. I assume at least the first year will be included ?
They're taking on the cheap Android tablet software model but charging iPad prices...
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and the pain in my side:
"One-year software maintenance that provides access to new firmware releases with updates"
"Maintenance for software: Maintenance license offers access to any software updates within the active period"
no firmware for you!
Totally unacceptable, especially in a new product that will have firmware issues that need fixing. I assume at least the first year will be included ?
You'd think so. Would be insane not to.
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The power supply is probably external.
It would be idiotic to make it so thin that it requires an external power supply. This isn't a TV set that needs to appeal to aesthetically minded housewives, it's a tool for professional engineers.
:)
Digital input channels (optional, available in future) < WTF is this future bit ?
Maybe they didn't finish the firmware yet.
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and the pain in my side:
"One-year software maintenance that provides access to new firmware releases with updates"
"Maintenance for software: Maintenance license offers access to any software updates within the active period"
no firmware for you!
Totally unacceptable, especially in a new product that will have firmware issues that need fixing. I assume at least the first year will be included ?
Its totally unacceptable that basic software fixes, like security fixes, are not provided free for the life of a product like this. Charging for functional improvements is up for debate, but companies who won't provide free fixes for basic flaws in the original shipping product that will affect its long term usability should be shunned.
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You generally wouldn't hand hold it, you'd take it with you somewhere and place it down. Being able to move your scope anywhere without dicking around with power, or simply disconnecting from the mains to prevent common mode noise pickup can be a big deal.
Yep. One of the reasons I love my Micsig is that I can just pick it up and use it on battery power on the other side of the room. It goes for four or five hours, usually long enough to get the job done.
I like the look of this new Tek. It's quite a radical move for them. :clap:
(are there some new managers at tek?)
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You generally wouldn't hand hold it, you'd take it with you somewhere and place it down. Being able to move your scope anywhere without dicking around with power, or simply disconnecting from the mains to prevent common mode noise pickup can be a big deal.
More specifically, when you are out working on large systems, the ability to pop a compact instrument into some nook or cranny that's within a test lead's length of the point of interest is a huge boon.
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and the pain in my side:
"One-year software maintenance that provides access to new firmware releases with updates"
"Maintenance for software: Maintenance license offers access to any software updates within the active period"
no firmware for you!
Totally unacceptable, especially in a new product that will have firmware issues that need fixing. I assume at least the first year will be included ?
Its totally unacceptable that basic software fixes, like security fixes, are not provided free for the life of a product like this. Charging for functional improvements is up for debate, but companies who won't provide free fixes for basic flaws in the original shipping product that will affect its long term usability should be shunned.
Sweet. OaaS model (Oscilloscope as a Service). Pay up or keep your gear with known bugs or unsafe to connect to the network (to download datasheets, of course).
So the screen is a membrane screen, not a touch screen?
Screen is capacitive touch. Buttons are membrane.
The membrane buttons are not really selling for me. Either the touch screen UI is really well implemented to make the buttons almost useless or the buttons must have a very soft action. Most of the membrane gear (Wavetek, for example) is a PITA to use over prolonged periods of time.
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and the pain in my side:
"One-year software maintenance that provides access to new firmware releases with updates"
"Maintenance for software: Maintenance license offers access to any software updates within the active period"
no firmware for you!
Totally unacceptable, especially in a new product that will have firmware issues that need fixing. I assume at least the first year will be included ?
You'd think so. Would be insane not to.
I find it weird that this oscilloscope has a 1 year warranty where other Tektronix equipment typically has 3 years of warranty. IMHO it is better to wait for the official announcement and see what turns up on Tektronix' website before jumping to conclusions.
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You generally wouldn't hand hold it, you'd take it with you somewhere and place it down. Being able to move your scope anywhere without dicking around with power, or simply disconnecting from the mains to prevent common mode noise pickup can be a big deal.
More specifically, when you are out working on large systems, the ability to pop a compact instrument into some nook or cranny that's within a test lead's length of the point of interest is a huge boon.
This is one of the great aspects of Tek's TDS3000 series: super small and compact that you can carry almost everywhere (something that has become a feature of the more modern Rig/Sig/Inst scopes)
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Battery pack is external (and huge!) :wtf:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1494673;image)
Let's hope it's compatible with the pretty rubber bumpers.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1494679;image)
Because if not, then... :palm:
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and the pain in my side:
"One-year software maintenance that provides access to new firmware releases with updates"
"Maintenance for software: Maintenance license offers access to any software updates within the active period"
no firmware for you!
Totally unacceptable, especially in a new product that will have firmware issues that need fixing. I assume at least the first year will be included ?
You'd think so. Would be insane not to.
I find it weird that this oscilloscope has a 1 year warranty where other Tektronix equipment typically has 3 years of warranty. IMHO it is better to wait for the official announcement and see what turns up on Tektronix' website before jumping to conclusions.
Yet loud and clear in the datasheet is:
One-year warranty covering all parts and labor cost on the instrument. One-year warranty covering all parts and labor cost on included probes
One-year software maintenance that provides access to new firmware releases with updates
And:
Service options Description
R3 Standard warranty extended to 3 years. Covers parts, labor cost, and 2-day shipping within country.
Guarantees faster repair time than without coverage. All repairs include calibration and updates. Hassle
free - a single call starts the process
R5 Standard warranty extended to 5 years. Covers parts, labor cost, and 2-day shipping within country.
Guarantees faster repair time than without coverage. All repairs include calibration and updates. Hassle
free - a single call starts the process
T3 Three year total protection plan, includes repair or replacement coverage from wear and tear, accidental
damage, ESD or EOS plus preventative maintenance. Including a 5 day turnaround time and priority access to
customer support
T5 Five year total protection plan, includes repair or replacement coverage from wear and tear, accidental
damage, ESD or EOS plus preventative maintenance. Including a 5 day turnaround time and priority access to
customer support
C3 Calibration service 3 years. Includes traceable calibration or functional verification where applicable, for
recommended calibrations. Coverage includes the initial calibration plus 2 years calibration coverage.
C5 Calibration service 5 years. Includes traceable calibration or functional verification where applicable, for
recommended calibrations. Coverage includes the initial calibration plus 4 years calibration coverage.
D1 Calibration data report
D3 Calibration data report 3 years (with option C3)
D5 Calibration data report 5 years (with option C5)
What's clearer than that...each one is an additional $ cost.
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I find it weird that this oscilloscope has a 1 year warranty where other Tektronix equipment typically has 3 years of warranty.
Yet loud and clear in the datasheet is:
R3 Standard warranty extended to 3 years. Covers parts, labor cost, and 2-day shipping within country.
Guarantees faster repair time than without coverage. All repairs include calibration and updates. Hassle
free - a single call starts the process
R5 Standard warranty extended to 5 years. Covers parts, labor cost, and 2-day shipping within country.
Guarantees faster repair time than without coverage. All repairs include calibration and updates. Hassle
free - a single call starts the process
...
What's clearer than that...each one is an additional $ cost.
Just something else for reps to sweeten big sales with
(but will be used to milk a lot of extra money from clients in the long term)
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and the pain in my side:
"One-year software maintenance that provides access to new firmware releases with updates"
"Maintenance for software: Maintenance license offers access to any software updates within the active period"
no firmware for you!
Totally unacceptable, especially in a new product that will have firmware issues that need fixing. I assume at least the first year will be included ?
Yes, 1st year "free", after that its worse than the penny pinching keysight "support" model.
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Oh, how out of date can they get:
Digital pattern generator (optional)
Serial protocol triggering and analysis (optional)
Digital voltmeter and frequency counter (optional)
Digital channels (optional)
--
Arbitrary function generator (optional)
Battery pack (optional)
Fair enough on those last two, but not really trying to compete with the opposition.
Their entire scope business is built around this model. Absolutely no surprises there at all. All of their major competitors like Keysight, R&S, and Lecroy do the same thing.
It's smart not to get into a race to the bottom when you are a top shelf player. You can always have specials bundling options.
Well, in last 3000G series Keysight gives away basic protocols trigger decode...Also in 1000 series...
So some do realize that ship has sailed...
They have to because they are still milking a 12 year old ASIC with limited memory. Much harder to compete these days.
Keysight have serial analysis/trigger and DVM/counter standard on their newer 1000/3000 models
R&S have the DVM/counter standard
Rigol have serial analysis/trigger standard on their 2000 series
Siglent/Lecroy have serial analysis/trigger standard on the 2000/3000 platform
Micsig have serial analysis/trigger standard.
Most competitors have serial as standard. All pretty competitive with this brand new Tek, pick any feature you prioritise and one of the above can come out on top but none are killing it on most/every measure.
You can pull all the singular corner case negative examples you like that no-one would realistically consider as an alternative, but actually looking in this bracket the Tek isn't jumping out on anything.
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You can pull all the singular corner case negative examples you like that no-one would realistically consider as an alternative, but actually looking in this bracket the Tek isn't jumping out on anything.
So? This new one is leaping out compared to other Teks.
(which I assume somebody is buying)
We also live in a world where huge numbers of people buy things based on looks, not function. This 'scope is very pretty, it has a tough-looking rubber bumper accessory for the macho types and it makes my Micsic look fairly ugly by comparison.
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and the pain in my side:
"One-year software maintenance that provides access to new firmware releases with updates"
"Maintenance for software: Maintenance license offers access to any software updates within the active period"
no firmware for you!
Totally unacceptable, especially in a new product that will have firmware issues that need fixing. I assume at least the first year will be included ?
You'd think so. Would be insane not to.
I find it weird that this oscilloscope has a 1 year warranty where other Tektronix equipment typically has 3 years of warranty. IMHO it is better to wait for the official announcement and see what turns up on Tektronix' website before jumping to conclusions.
Yet loud and clear in the datasheet is:
Again: who says this is the final datasheet? The product hasn't even been officially released yet! Let's calm down and wait for the official release of both product and datasheet (the current version seems to be missing several specs so is likely to be updated). Speculation leads to nowhere.
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Membrane key pads eh? Let me go across the street and take a pic of my neighbor's microwave oven membrane keypad. You will see what happens to the covering after being pushed many times for a couple of years. :-[
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I bet it's a single overlay sheet as well. Those tend to go off colour and peel at the edges.
Membrane keys is a big no no on durable devices. The only compromise there is medical devices where they are used for hygiene and on cheap stuff because, well they are cheap.
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So the screen is a membrane screen, not a touch screen?
Screen is capacitive touch. Buttons are membrane.
Yup, which begs the question as to how valid this point is :"You wouldn't want cap touch when hand holding it, you could quite easily accidently activate them."
If you had capacitive front panel buttons as suggested it would be a complete PIA if you hand hold or grab the side and move it around.
The cap touch screen can be turned off if needed, button on the front for that.
The only difference between us is that w.r.t. intended operation when handheld, membrane is not sufficiently better than capacitive.
I'm unconvinced of the widescale benefit of it being handheld: one hand to hold it, one hand to hold the probe in place, one had to control it. Niche cases, yes, but not for most purposes.
You generally wouldn't hand hold it, you'd take it with you somewhere and place it down. Being able to move your scope anywhere without dicking around with power, or simply disconnecting from the mains to prevent common mode noise pickup can be a big deal.
Portable operation is different to handheld; we agree about the advantages of portability.
I'll question how stable it is when stood on something unlike a decent rigid bench, e.g. a curved car bonnet or something flexible, or even a carpeted floor or cushioned chair. Obviously I can't answer that.
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You can pull all the singular corner case negative examples you like that no-one would realistically consider as an alternative, but actually looking in this bracket the Tek isn't jumping out on anything.
Name another scope that:
- Moves seamlessly from bench use to portable use, with VESA mount and rack mount option.
- Has hot swappable batteries with external charging dock for serious field use.
- Has VNC remote operation
- Shares the same interface and software features as high end models, so higher end features flow down to this model.
None of that may matter to you, and that's fine, but I'm pretty impressed with the market differentiation they have done here.
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Those features are rather niche that I doubt these make strong selling points. Also VNC is outdated; nowadays most DSOs have remote web operation that doesn't need specific client software other than a web browser. On top of that VNC has become a bit of a moving target as well; it isn't as standard as it used to be. I while ago I have implemented remote VNC operation for a project for one of my customers but it used to be much easier to use VNC than it is nowadays.
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..... with VESA mount and rack mount option.
The VESA mount is a feature I wish Siglent would employ, very handy for certain lab use.
Best,
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Those features are rather niche that I doubt these make good selling points. Also VNC is outdated; nowadays most DSOs have remote web operation that doesn't need specific client software other than a web browser. On top of that VNC has become a bit of a moving target as well; it isn't as standard as it used to be. I while ago I have implemented remote VNC operation for a project for one of my customers but it used to be much easier to use VNC than it is nowadays.
I've yet to see a direct web interface based scope that's even close to being really usable. They are usually pretty gimmicky and fiddly.
VNC works instantly and it's a standard interface and software.
And it's way better than yet another custom app solution.
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Those features are rather niche that I doubt these make good selling points.
They do for many customers. They would have done their homework.
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The VESA mount is a feature I wish Siglent would employ, very handy for certain lab use.
Get yourself a VESA mounting plate and some self-tappers... :)
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Shame they didn't put USB-C on there as a power option - looks like it uses one of those horrible mini-DIN style plugs, so you'll need to carry an extra proprietary adapter with you if you want to use it on the go, and pay top $$$ if you lose the included one.
That support subscription list from the manual didn't seem to mention the FW maintenance option - it's bad enough having to deal with subscription licenses for SW, but for HW that's really shit, especially if there isn't some sort of guarantee that they'll even bother delivering updates once the biggest bugs (i.e. bad enough to affect sales) are squashed.
Dave, RE direct web interface vs VNC- did you try the RTB2004 interface?
Edit: yes I know there are reasons why you might use a special power plug, e.g. earthing, and avoiding some of the USB confusion-factory. But this is already aimed at hand-held use, so earthing is something that needs to be considered anyway (and appears to be catered for with an earth lug on the case).
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I've yet to see a direct web interface based scope that's even close to being really usable. They are usually pretty gimmicky and fiddly.
the R&S RTB/RTM scopes work very well
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USB-B will be used for using the scope as a device (e.g. emulating mass storage or another media transfer protocol - if done well can be very useful, e.g. having a virtual file which when copied will be a screenshot, or waveform record or something). Looks like some USB-A ports on it as well.
Edit: looks like I replied to a deleted post!
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this is already aimed at hand-held use, so earthing is something that needs to be considered anyway (and appears to be catered for with an earth lug on the case).
Looks like the battery pack even comes with a little yellow/green cable.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1494748;image)
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...which will be lost instantly and never used...
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USB-B will be used for using the scope as a device (e.g. emulating mass storage or another media transfer protocol
Edit: looks like I replied to a deleted post!
Yep, I thought about that after I posted so I deleted it.
If you're connecting the 'scope directly to your PC/laptop with a USB cable then you need a non-USB-A connector on the 'scope to avoid confusion.
Edit: But USB-C would have killed two birds with one stone - communication and power - you could even run it off a USB power bank in a pinch.
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Shame they didn't put USB-C on there as a power option - looks like it uses one of those horrible mini-DIN style plugs, so you'll need to carry an extra proprietary adapter with you if you want to use it on the go, and pay top $$$ if you lose the included one.
Please tell me they have a right-angled plug for that - a long mini-din type cable coming out sideways would be awful.
Also looks like thay use a different PSU for the scope and the battery charger :palm:
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I'm pretty sure you can't hold it one-handed like this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1494793;image)
And that screen looks awfully shiny to me :scared:
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And that screen looks awfully shiny to me :scared:
A matte screen protector will fix that - works well on the R&S
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I'm pretty sure you can't hold it one-handed like this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1494793;image)
And that screen looks awfully shiny to me :scared:
Considering you can hold an iPad like that for about 2-3 minutes before your hand hurts, yup, even if it was designed for it. Going to be a lot heavier than an iPad.
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And how amazing is it that it works without a power cable. :-DD
It must have another battery in the main housing to do this :) since the picture with the battery holder attached shows it to be much thicker.
And what's up with the just 10Msamples of storage. The rest of the specs are not that amazing either for what the price seems to be.
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And what's up with the just 10Msamples of storage.
Competing Keysight scopes have at least 10 times less memory per channel.
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Where as Rigol MSO5000 series have 100MB (200MB when hacked) in total for the 4 channels so 25MB per channel when all are used for a fraction of the price.
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And what's up with the just 10Msamples of storage. The rest of the specs are not that amazing either for what the price seems to be.
That seems like a lot to me. I think my main scope has 8M and that's enough for pages and pages and pages of waveform, in practice I usually use much much less.
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And what's up with the just 10Msamples of storage. The rest of the specs are not that amazing either for what the price seems to be.
That seems like a lot to me. I think my main scope has 8M and that's enough for pages and pages and pages of waveform, in practice I usually use much much less.
It depends heavily on what you do... And sampling rate of the scope.
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I'm pretty sure you can't hold it one-handed like this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1494793;image)
And that screen looks awfully shiny to me :scared:
Considering you can hold an iPad like that for about 2-3 minutes before your hand hurts, yup, even if it was designed for it. Going to be a lot heavier than an iPad.
Something is wrong about this photo. It keeps displaying pinch zoom-able traces on screen without power adapter plugged in and without battery pack attached. Or maybe it's powered by the decoded signal itself, fed through the port on the other edge? Micsig, beat that!
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Where as Rigol MSO5000 series have 100MB (200MB when hacked) in total for the 4 channels so 25MB per channel when all are used for a fraction of the price.
Yet the SDS2000X Plus, the deep memory leader in this class has 2x 200Mpts for 100Mpts/ch with all channels active. SDS5000X are of similar construction but with 2x 250Mpts.
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Something is wrong about this photo. It keeps displaying pinch zoom-able traces on screen without power adapter plugged in and without battery pack attached. Or maybe it's powered by the decoded signal itself, fed through the port on the other edge? Micsig, beat that!
That's just a silly graphic and I hope Tek didn't make it. There is no way it could be held like that it would fall off your hand. :palm:
As far as the membrane keypad - it will develop fatigue cracks eventually. Here's a pic of my neighbor's microwave oven keypad to show what happens after repeated pressing for a few years. This from an older couple entering times to warm up coffee and leftovers. Before they had to replace their dishwasher because of leaks, it had the same issues with it's membrane keys (two different manufacturers).
People in an industrial environment will not go easier on membrane buttons than people that actually had to pay for their own stuff. They'll be pushing them with pencils and screwdrivers as well as their fingers, and many times much harder than needed if they are frustrated with the scope or the job they are doing. I've seen abuse like that where I worked and I'm sure others have as well.
Maybe it won't happen to this design, I hope not for the people who purchase the thing.
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Looks like the battery pack even comes with a little yellow/green cable.
That'll be the Kensington security cable, needed to keep it from walking out of classrooms.
Re: VNC, most "web interfaces" are just Java VNC clients that the instrument downloads to the browser at connection time. It falls into the better-than-nothing category, sometimes much better.
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Looks like the battery pack even comes with a little yellow/green cable.
That'll be the Kensington security cable, needed to keep it from walking out of classrooms.
Re: VNC, most "web interfaces" are just Java VNC clients that the instrument downloads to the browser at connection time. It falls into the better-than-nothing category, sometimes much better.
I think that is a grounding cable....
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I think that is a grounding cable....
Maybe... I can't tell if that's a banana jack, or a locking plug that's been turned sideways.
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Do you have a SPL2016 in the lab Dave as it appears the Tek P6316 MSO probe is almost identical to the SPL2016 Siglent use. If we look at the digital socket on the RHS it looks the same shape and size for the PCIE connector Siglent, LeCroy, some Rigol and existing Tek models use.
I have the P6316 probe, but the software option isn't there yet.
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Something is wrong about this photo. It keeps displaying pinch zoom-able traces on screen without power adapter plugged in and without battery pack attached.
I did notify them about that amusing image ;D
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Please tell me they have a right-angled plug for that - a long mini-din type cable coming out sideways would be awful.
It comes out sideways. It's one of the things I noted in my first impressions video I think.
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Most competitors have serial as standard. All pretty competitive with this brand new Tek, pick any feature you prioritise and one of the above can come out on top but none are killing it on most/every measure.
You can pull all the singular corner case negative examples you like that no-one would realistically consider as an alternative, but actually looking in this bracket the Tek isn't jumping out on anything.
Name another scope that:
- Moves seamlessly from bench use to portable use, with VESA mount and rack mount option.
- Has hot swappable batteries with external charging dock for serious field use.
- Has VNC remote operation
- Shares the same interface and software features as high end models, so higher end features flow down to this model.
None of that may matter to you, and that's fine, but I'm pretty impressed with the market differentiation they have done here.
The 'old overly specific tender specifications trick? As I explicitly said in that post, yes you can find some characteristics which make it unique (in combination), but they arent attention grabbing or impressive in the broader market. Once the pricing is public then fairer comparisons can be made.
We could equally take aim at your blind fanboy/marketing take, VESA mounts are notoriously not seamless for moving between mounted and mobile: "VESA mounting points on rear of instrument" of the standard type that is held in with screws. Perhpas if there were some tidy clip on/off accessory or mount that easily swapped with the battery pack you might have a point (particularly integrating power delivery), but there is nothing to suggest that in the material available.
This puts it pretty well:
You can pull all the singular corner case negative examples you like that no-one would realistically consider as an alternative, but actually looking in this bracket the Tek isn't jumping out on anything.
So? This new one is leaping out compared to other Teks.
(which I assume somebody is buying)
Insular looking product that doesnt seem to try to compete with the opposition, yep. If it was trying to modernize the Tek product suite then the isolated channels of the TPS would have been an obvious thing to hit (perhaps too expensive to fit into the small/odd gap between their TBS2000 and the 3 series). That split with the TBS2000 is really odd, mutually exclusive serial analysis or active probe interface.
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I've yet to see a direct web interface based scope that's even close to being really usable. They are usually pretty gimmicky and fiddly.
the R&S RTB/RTM scopes work very well
Yes, forgot about that.
The responsiveness of the R&S and the Tek seems the same.
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We could equally take aim at your blind fanboy/marketing take, VESA mounts are notoriously not seamless for moving between mounted and mobile: "VESA mounting points on rear of instrument" of the standard type that is held in with screws. Perhpas if there were some tidy clip on/off accessory or mount that easily swapped with the battery pack you might have a point (particularly integrating power delivery), but there is nothing to suggest that in the material available.
I think the integral VESA mount is an excellent idea and will be well received. You might be a tad embaressed when you see how well it's all integrated.
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We could equally take aim at your blind fanboy/marketing take, VESA mounts are notoriously not seamless for moving between mounted and mobile: "VESA mounting points on rear of instrument" of the standard type that is held in with screws. Perhpas if there were some tidy clip on/off accessory or mount that easily swapped with the battery pack you might have a point (particularly integrating power delivery), but there is nothing to suggest that in the material available.
I think the integral VESA mount is an excellent idea and will be well received. You might be a tad embaressed when you see how well it's all integrated.
Yeah I rather like that idea having worked on test line stuff. On an articulated arm, that could be very usable.
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I think that is a grounding cable....
Maybe... I can't tell if that's a banana jack, or a locking plug that's been turned sideways.
It's a grounding cable. It has a big alligator on one end and a lug on the other end which attaches to the thumbscrew on the left side. I have the same cable that was supplied with my TDS3054, which can also be battery powered. They really don't want you floating it.
Also, I haven't seen a single photo yet with any probes attached. I could see them detracting from the whole tablet-i-ness of it, sticking out like that.
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I've yet to see a direct web interface based scope that's even close to being really usable. They are usually pretty gimmicky and fiddly.
the R&S RTB/RTM scopes work very well
Yes, forgot about that.
The responsiveness of the R&S and the Tek seems the same.
You need get other gear off the shelf more regularly and try it.
We regularly use beta tester equipment remotely on the other side of the world and apart from time of day dependent latency they work just fine.
All good gear has these features and unless they worked properly they wouldn't be integrated into new gear.
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We could equally take aim at your blind fanboy/marketing take, VESA mounts are notoriously not seamless for moving between mounted and mobile: "VESA mounting points on rear of instrument" of the standard type that is held in with screws. Perhpas if there were some tidy clip on/off accessory or mount that easily swapped with the battery pack you might have a point (particularly integrating power delivery), but there is nothing to suggest that in the material available.
I think the integral VESA mount is an excellent idea and will be well received. You might be a tad embaressed when you see how well it's all integrated.
Yeah I rather like that idea having worked on test line stuff. On an articulated arm, that could be very usable.
I'm beguiled by the VESA mount too, especially with a small workbench or where there is a lot of equipment on the bench.
However, I do wonder how easy/tiring it will be to do repeated fine two-finger manipulations of something a arms length and above shoulder height.
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However, I do wonder how easy/tiring it will be to do repeated fine two-finger manipulations of something a arms length and above shoulder height.
You can always remote control it, or mouse control it.
It works with my wireless logitech mouse just fine. And the thing about the new gen 2/3/4/5/6 Tek interface is that everything is completely controllable from the screen using either touch, mouse, or VNC remote control. It's the same experience across all the different methods. You don't need the front panel controls.
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This feels like a straight downgrade over a R&S RTB or RTH (depending on if you need field use or not). Yes, it fulfils a slightly different niche, but at 2x the price?
For a field use scope only CAT II sucks as well.
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As far as the membrane keypad - it will develop fatigue cracks eventually. Here's a pic of my neighbor's microwave oven keypad to show what happens after repeated pressing for a few years. This from an older couple entering times to warm up coffee and leftovers. Before they had to replace their dishwasher because of leaks, it had the same issues with it's membrane keys (two different manufacturers).
That depends on material used for the particular membrane. Many last for a very long time in frequent use without much degradation. Others fall apart just outside warranty.
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This feels like a straight downgrade over a R&S RTB or RTH (depending on if you need field use or not). Yes, it fulfils a slightly different niche, but at 2x the price?
I doubt it was really designed to win big market share from competitors lower end bench scopes. It's another (obvious) entry in their 3/4/5/6 series line that provides a smaller and portable option using the same interface. It's mainly catering to the existing 3/4/5/6 series buyer base and filling a hole in their lineup. Plus they might gain some new market share from those that want the portable or VESA mount flexibility.
As for pricing it's actually on par or even slightly less than the base 70MHz R&S 2002/2004 models.
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I wonder if this means the bandwidth is fully software upgradable and has any other Tek scope been 'upgraded' like Rigol or Siglent models? From Page 22 of the datasheet,.
Step 2 – Configure bandwidth mandatory
Configure your oscilloscope by selecting the analog channel bandwidth you need. You can also upgrade the bandwidth later by purchasing an upgrade option.
Bandwidth option Bandwidth range
2-BW-70 70 MHz
2-BW-100 100 MHz
2-BW-200 200 MHz
2-BW-350 350 MHz
2-BW-500 500 MHz
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I wonder if this means the bandwidth is fully software upgradable and has any other Tek scope been 'upgraded' like Rigol or Siglent models? From Page 22 of the datasheet,.
Yes, software license upgradable, just like 3/4/5/6 series and how every manufacturer does it. Although I think some of those higher BW series are hardware differentiated, as once you get past 500MHz the front ends get really expensive.
The old Tek I2C chip module licences have been cloned IIRC, but to my knowledge the 3/4/5/6 haven't?
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As far as the membrane keypad - it will develop fatigue cracks eventually. Here's a pic of my neighbor's microwave oven keypad to show what happens after repeated pressing for a few years.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1494982;image)
C'mon, that's the cheapest possible membrane keyboard, it's flat, and it looks like it has a lot of depth/travel on the buttons.
I can think of half a dozen places which use membrane keyboards in 'industrial' situations (big CNC machines where I work, the entrance to the local yacht club...) and they hold up just fine.
The ones with a molded ridge around each key also have a lot more stretch to the membrane than flat membranes like in that photo.
Edit: A quick google search for "industrial membrane keyboard" shows many claims of "1 million presses".
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I went to see tektronix distributor yesterday.
Of course he didn't want to tell me too much about 2 series, bit knowing the fact that I already know everything I read here, he became more chatty.
I really think this product will find his entusiasts.
Also, prices for that one are suppose to be descent, maybe not rigol prices but hey, it's always less that some stuff is more expensive in the world, that is.
Fun fact he had a photo showing all 2-6 series, that he wanted to hide before he knew I saw it already.
Also played with 3, 4 and 6 series, and what I know is I'm definitely putting order for 4B when that one will be released. Hope not in million years.
New tektronix gui feels fantastic, is very intuitive.
I also picked up yesterday Keysight DSO-S-204A
Honestly after playing with that Tek4, Keysight GUI makes wonder if I did right getting it.
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I really like the look of it and after owning a Micsig I think it would be difficult to go back to a "traditional" 'scope so this would fit the bill nicely if I ever win the lottery.
The only thing that bothers me is having the probes on the front. That takes up several inches of bench space for no good reason (compared to having them on the top) and I'm sure they'll get in the way of your hands when you're trying to touch the bottom of the screen.
I guess that's what the VESA mount is for...
(but the probes will still be in the way of your hands even with that)
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I guess that's what the VESA mount is for...
(but the probes will still be in the way of your hands even with that)
Maybe 90deg adapter would to the job?
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The only thing that bothers me is having the probes on the front.
I guess front probes makes it very easy on the PCB (it's the traditional way...) but seems a hell of a mess when holding such thing with one hand and handling the menus with the other. Besides loosing lots of front space...
Couldn't they have learned something from Micsig? Let's hope Tek had 1,000s of testers doing ergonomic dry runs... ::)
I think this is one of those cases where even these big companies don't know how to migrate from the legacy interfaces to the handheld world.
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As far as the membrane keypad - it will develop fatigue cracks eventually. Here's a pic of my neighbor's microwave oven keypad to show what happens after repeated pressing for a few years.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1494982;image)
C'mon, that's the cheapest possible membrane keyboard, it's flat, and it looks like it has a lot of depth/travel on the buttons.
I can think of half a dozen places which use membrane keyboards in 'industrial' situations (big CNC machines where I work, the entrance to the local yacht club...) and they hold up just fine.
The ones with a molded ridge around each key also have a lot more stretch to the membrane than flat membranes like in that photo.
Edit: A quick google search for "industrial membrane keyboard" shows many claims of "1 million presses".
Indeed. This is the membrane on my 6+ year old microwave which gets daily use. Slight additional depression on the "1" but other than that in excellent shape.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/0sJtzb.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pn0sJtzbj)
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The only thing that bothers me is having the probes on the front.
I guess front probes makes it very easy on the PCB (it's the traditional way...) but seems a hell of a mess when holding such thing with one hand and handling the menus with the other. Besides loosing lots of front space...
Will be interesting to test the BNC inputs for microphonic behavior as they are recessed and frontward facing and in such a thin enclosure.
Let's hope Tek did this right especially in a portable device. :popcorn:
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Unless this is just a browse device to surf prerecorded signals...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1494793;image)
How could one place the hand like this with the probes inserted? (Oh, sorry, we can use 1 channel.)
Why isn't there any example pic in the datasheet showing hands+probes? ?
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Good ergonomic design is always an issue. What are these designers thinking one might ask.
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This was not designed to be a handheld. Handheld is the only case that would really benefit from top or side BNCs, in any other case you would gladly prefer them to be on the front (even if the scope is in your lap. I regularly have situations in which i keep the laptop on my lap to monitor a device and scope posed on the laptop keyboard to look at signals. BNC on the side maybe, BNC on top/bottom hell no)
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This was not designed to be a handheld. Handheld is the only case that would really benefit from top or side BNCs, in any other case you would gladly prefer them to be on the front (even if the scope is in your lap. I regularly have situations in which i keep the laptop on my lap to monitor a device and scope posed on the laptop keyboard to look at signals. BNC on the side maybe, BNC on top/bottom hell no)
BNC on top is just fine for micsig...
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C'mon, that's the cheapest possible membrane keyboard, it's flat, and it looks like it has a lot of depth/travel on the buttons.
I can think of half a dozen places which use membrane keyboards in 'industrial' situations (big CNC machines where I work, the entrance to the local yacht club...) and they hold up just fine.
The ones with a molded ridge around each key also have a lot more stretch to the membrane than flat membranes like in that photo.
Edit: A quick google search for "industrial membrane keyboard" shows many claims of "1 million presses".
Is this like a "big CNC machine" where you work, i.e. expensive industrial design? I don't think it is. We don't know what quality Tek has chosen for the design. There is no reason for me to believe that they chose a high quality industrial membrane for a scope like this. The plain fact is, the membrane keypads can wear out and if this is a cheaper mechanical design it will look like that microwave oven keypad eventually. Neither you nor I know what will happen. I am simply pointing out what can happen in the free exchange of information here, and the buyer should beware.
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C'mon, that's the cheapest possible membrane keyboard, it's flat, and it looks like it has a lot of depth/travel on the buttons.
I can think of half a dozen places which use membrane keyboards in 'industrial' situations (big CNC machines where I work, the entrance to the local yacht club...) and they hold up just fine.
The ones with a molded ridge around each key also have a lot more stretch to the membrane than flat membranes like in that photo.
Edit: A quick google search for "industrial membrane keyboard" shows many claims of "1 million presses".
Is this like a "big CNC machine" where you work, i.e. expensive industrial design? I don't think it is. We don't know what quality Tek has chosen for the design. There is no reason for me to believe that they chose a high quality industrial membrane for a scope like this. The plain fact is, the membrane keypads can wear out and if this is a cheaper mechanical design it will look like that microwave oven keypad eventually. Neither you nor I know what will happen. I am simply pointing out what can happen in the free exchange of information here, and the buyer should beware.
As long as they make spares available, not a huge deal - I'm sure they will have chosen something with appropriate wear lifetime
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Maybe, maybe not. Depends what the end user specification is.
The thing I know will happen is some numbskull engineer will poke the buttons with a scope probe or screwdriver which just happens to be in their hand and penetrate the membrane.
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The thing I know will happen is some numbskull engineer will poke the buttons with a scope probe or screwdriver which just happens to be in their hand and penetrate the membrane.
Maybe he'll operate the touchscreen with the screwdriver as well. :-//
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Got this email teaser from Newark today. I suppose we should tune into YouTube on June 7th for Dave's video to go public.
Something big is coming…
but it’s smaller than you expected
Stay tuned and get excited for Next Gen Tek
The wait is almost over and it’s time to get ready for something big in the works. We cant unveil anything just yet (sorry!) but what we can say for now is mark this date down of June 7th.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1495378;image)
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Why isn't there any example pic in the datasheet showing hands+probes? ?
I think we know the answer to that one... :-X
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Why isn't there any example pic in the datasheet showing hands+probes? ?
I think we know the answer to that one... :-X
"Get rid of those wires, they distract and complicate unnecessarily the composition" :)
Whoever took the pics was probably concerned more of the esthetics (exposure, lighting, reflections, Apple-like simplicity, poser's pose etc.) than of the logic of actually using the device.
The location of the probes under the screen might be just fine and might not impede the operation in any way in normal use. Micsig's probes placement above the screen seemed to many a bad idea too. People worried about the wires obstructing the screen, but it turned out not to be the case at all.
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Why isn't there any example pic in the datasheet showing hands+probes? ?
I think we know the answer to that one... :-X
"Get rid of those wires, they distract and complicate unnecessarily the composition" :)
Whoever took the pics was probably concerned more of the esthetics (exposure, lighting, reflections, Apple-like simplicity, poser's pose etc.) than of the logic of actually using the device.
The location of the probes under the screen might be just fine and might not impede the operation in any way in normal use. Micsig's probes placement above the screen seemed to many a bad idea too. People worried about the wires obstructing the screen, but it turned out not to be the case at all.
Unfortunately I get a feeling that that most of this scope concept is about cool looks... Like somebody up said "Apple of scopes" kind...
BNCs on the bottom make sense because despite all kind of stupid photos Tek takes, that is a cool, thin looking desktop scope. With batteries it will weigh few kilos and be huge to hold with one hand. So like I said, a scope that has mobility of laptop around the lab.. Membrane keyboard might be a hit feature where scope needs to wiped down and disinfected.. Many places you don't get instruments dedicated to you, but basically check out what you need..
This one is small and light, you grab it, take to your desk and it takes little desk space...
This is also why Micsig is brilliant, despite being quite limited in some respects...
Except Micsig is actually portable, has built in battery and you can use it handheld.
I don't know how good this ne Tek is. I didn't try it. I don't know how well it will be accepted..
But I give kudos to Tek. For first time in many years they did try to think a bit out of the box.
They will probably autodestruct with too high prices and usual attitude, but this scope had some innovation in thinking.
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(https://imgur.com/mK9ANIH.jpg)
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But I give kudos to Tek. For first time in many years they did try to think a bit out of the box.
They will probably autodestruct with too high prices and usual attitude, but this scope had some innovation in thinking.
I'm not so sure. The alternatives to this scope are the R&S RTB2004 or a 2 series from Keysight. If you need more memory compared to the Keysight and the RTB2004 doesn't really fit your purpose, then this Tektronix 2 series can be a good alternative. But this will depend on whether the UI makes sense. One of the things that may set this Tektronix apart by a large margin is doing math on the actual acquired data instead of decimated data (that should become clear once the manual is released) with some reasonable processing speed for a change. Maybe Dave can comment on this.
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(https://imgur.com/mK9ANIH.jpg)
Are you saying Tek is seriously underwater at this point?
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What is the waveform update rate of this scope??
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But I give kudos to Tek. For first time in many years they did try to think a bit out of the box.
They will probably autodestruct with too high prices and usual attitude, but this scope had some innovation in thinking.
I'm not so sure. The alternatives to this scope are the R&S RTB2004 or a 2 series from Keysight. If you need more memory compared to the Keysight and the RTB2004 doesn't really fit your purpose, then this Tektronix 2 series can be a good alternative. But this will depend on whether the UI makes sense. One of the things that may set this Tektronix apart by a large margin is doing math on the actual acquired data instead of decimated data (that should become clear once the manual is released) with some reasonable processing speed for a change. Maybe Dave can comment on this.
Lol, like Dave trying to steer comparisons to the "ancient" Agilent Keysight 2000 series? Pricing that was briefly up for these Tek scopes was not flattering in that segment. But still...
Siglent 2000X: Math and Measurements on full sample points
look the other way! no comparison possible! definitely no low end scopes doing anything with the raw data, only TEK has the power /s
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Got this email teaser from Newark today. I suppose we should tune into YouTube on June 7th for Dave's video to go public.
Guess I'd better go shoot it! :scared:
I already have two videos, one is a single take first impressions video. Another is again a single take 40min discussion with Mr Bean. Both shot back in April.
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Got this email teaser from Newark today. I suppose we should tune into YouTube on June 7th for Dave's video to go public.
Guess I'd better go shoot it! :scared:
Yeah get on with it will ya ! :horse:
For sure there's enough ideas of what to check for in this thread already.
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and the teardown!!! ;D
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But I give kudos to Tek. For first time in many years they did try to think a bit out of the box.
They will probably autodestruct with too high prices and usual attitude, but this scope had some innovation in thinking.
I'm not so sure. The alternatives to this scope are the R&S RTB2004 or a 2 series from Keysight. If you need more memory compared to the Keysight and the RTB2004 doesn't really fit your purpose, then this Tektronix 2 series can be a good alternative. But this will depend on whether the UI makes sense. One of the things that may set this Tektronix apart by a large margin is doing math on the actual acquired data instead of decimated data (that should become clear once the manual is released) with some reasonable processing speed for a change. Maybe Dave can comment on this.
U/I makes sense for a touch screen.
Keysight 2000 is not even alternative to Keysight's own 1000 series that is more rounded and more powerful scope.
RTB2000 is on the market longer and most of the big bugs are fixed. Math is limited. But R&S does occasionally sell it at prices that are almost realistic.
I don't care for this bullshit let's compare it to other 2000 series.. Only comparison is by price.
If this thing costs as much as Siglent SDS6000 or Keysight 3000T/G, or R&S RTM3000 or whatever, that is what you compare it to.. And in that company it is not looking good...
Even Siglent 1000X-E series measures from full data (Rigol MSO5000 has that option too, but is off by default).
Actually, Keysight and R&S are left behind in that regard in this segment..
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With all this teaser frenzy, who is thinking in buying one?
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With all this teaser frenzy, who is thinking in buying one?
Well, it could be an interesting option to recommend to customers as a relatively cheap but trustworthy daily driver (after the initial firmware issues have been solved) besides the RTB2004. But it will depend on how well it works and price; I'd be surprised if this 2 series scope isn't priced competitively compared to the RTB2004 though.
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Are we going start a pool on pricing? :popcorn:
I'll say $3500 USD for the entry level 2-channel, 70Mhz model, rising to about $12000 for fully-loaded 4-channel 350Mhz MSO with all options (probes sold separately...)
Serial decoders? $1200 for RS232/I2C+SPI, another $1200 for CAN.
Battery option? "The price of a Micsig for the adapter+one battery and an extra $250 for each additional battery"
Rubber bumpers? $300
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2500$ for basic i bet. 12K for fully loaded one? No way. 7K max. Well maybe 500 MHz will bump the price.
There is only one serial bundle and CAN is included according to datasheet.
I'm interested. I have RTB2004 but something more portable would be nice. However that deppends also on how expensive addons will be. That is as me private.
For work I'll definately order one. One 2 series and one 4B when that gets released.
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With all this teaser frenzy, who is thinking in buying one?
Well, it could be an interesting option to recommend to customers as a relatively cheap but trustworthy daily driver (after the initial firmware issues have been solved) besides the RTB2004. But it will depend on how well it works and price; I'd be surprised if this 2 series scope isn't priced competitively compared to the RTB2004 though.
Trustworthy? It's a clean slate design, some reuse from current 3 series... I'll decide on trustworthy after few years.
RTB2000 was a mess when it came out... Took some time for R&S to get it to expected level...
I'd be surprised if it would be priced competitively.... Current 2000 is not and this new one is actually much more capable device. At least on the paper..
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2500$ for basic i bet. 12K for fully loaded one? No way. 7K max. Well maybe 500 MHz will bump the price.
There is only one serial bundle and CAN is included according to datasheet.
I'm interested. I have RTB2004 but something more portable would be nice. However that deppends also on how expensive addons will be. That is as me private.
For work I'll definately order one. One 2 series and one 4B when that gets released.
What makes you think that it is more portable than RTB2000 in reality? To carry it around the lab external laptop like PSU will be more annoying than standard power cord, and with battery, it is bigger and twice as heavy sa RTB2000.
For 7K you can get better scopes elsewhere... Much better..
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RTB2004 is nice and light, but that's a double-edged sword - it also doesn't feel sturdy enough (especially the moulded grid stuff on the back/sides) to lug outside the lab regularly even with a front cover on it.
As others have pointed out, the RTB2k also has a LOT of internal wasted space (likely to keep the tooling similar for the higher end versions which DO need the space), and R&S could easily have offered an internal battery option. Given the whole thing runs off a straight 12V PSU (and likely even a 11.1V nominal lithium ion) an internal mod with a self-charging battery option would be totally doable if one wanted, but I've never really needed it for mine.
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What makes you think that it is more portable than RTB2000 in reality?
Battery?
And what I'm talking about is nice compact device that can help me quickly connect and find basic problems. Not research and developement. I don't need full 500MHz one, for that we have different device.
I really like new UI in tektronix device. It's the best i so far experienced. Od course you can get better specs for that money, but best specs per $ is not always priority.
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I'll say $3500 USD for the entry level 2-channel, 70Mhz model, rising to about $12000 for fully-loaded 4-channel 350Mhz MSO with all options (probes sold separately...)
Fungus, shown before that the MSO24 70MHz (with a demo board) was $3.040 (newark).
So, it's cheaper than your bet! :)
And since it's all software maybe it will be possible a fully-loaded for that price.
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What is the waveform update rate of this scope??
I am also wondering this as I haven't found any mention of it in the data sheet. I recall Dave running a test on an older model and he said the scope was slow. ;D
https://youtu.be/07VkEUUd0eo?t=1685
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I'm interested. I have RTB2004 but something more portable would be nice.
Micsig?
Depends on your needs, I guess...
I just noticed there's a trendy new Micsig on the block:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1496236;image)
https://www.micsig.com/product5/ (https://www.micsig.com/product5/)
(battery included and with a strap on the left side so you can actually hold it with one hand...)
Edit: New thread started to discuss it... (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-micsig/)
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With all this teaser frenzy, who is thinking in buying one?
I don't because it doesn't have TekVPI interface. This makes all their probes unusable like current or differential probes. Don't understand why they decided that way.
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With all this teaser frenzy, who is thinking in buying one?
I don't because it doesn't have TekVPI interface. This makes all their probes unusable like current or differential probes. Don't understand why they decided that way.
As I said, it is a fancy looking scope primarily.
It doesn't have 50Ω inputs and no active probes..
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I don't because it doesn't have TekVPI interface. This makes all their probes unusable like current or differential probes. Don't understand why they decided that way.
At the beginning i was surprised as well.
No TekVPI?
But... reason is TekVPI uses power, that collides with beeing battery powered. Also the size.
RTB2004 also has pure BNCs.
50ohm? Active probes?
Which lowest series scope has that?
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I don't because it doesn't have TekVPI interface. This makes all their probes unusable like current or differential probes. Don't understand why they decided that way.
At the beginning i was surprised as well.
No TekVPI?
But... reason is TekVPI uses power, that collides with beeing battery powered. Also the size.
RTB2004 also has pure BNCs.
50ohm? Active probes?
Which lowest series scope has that?
The MSO2000 series it's replacing has TekVPI though, so I agree that the lack of it on the new one is a let down.
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And the TBS2000B series has it too. But might be true that it has something to do with battery power or the small size.
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And the TBS2000B series has it too. But might be true that it has something to do with battery power or the small size.
I can't imagine it's because of battery power.
Haven't done the teardown yet, but I'd bet it's a compromise of the construction.
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I don't because it doesn't have TekVPI interface. This makes all their probes unusable like current or differential probes. Don't understand why they decided that way.
At the beginning i was surprised as well.
No TekVPI?
But... reason is TekVPI uses power, that collides with beeing battery powered. Also the size.
RTB2004 also has pure BNCs.
50ohm? Active probes?
Which lowest series scope has that?
Most scopes are at best 50ohm//20pF - since they merely bang a 50ohm in parallel with the 1Mohm/20pF input.
My only 50ohm scope is my Tek 485, which has both 1Mohm and 50ohm attenuators.
High end scopes, spectrum analysers, etc are 50ohm only.
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Haven't done the teardown yet, but I'd bet it's a compromise of the construction.
I'm pretty sure it's the main reason. Battery - a bit I guess. If you go crazy, you can drain up to 50W if you use all channels. (But yeah, more a justification - not a reason for lack of it)
However looking at the competitors, not only Tek has pure BNCs at 2 series.
I mean I see the logic behind it and for sure that scope would find use in my work.
If only it boot up as fast as RTB, and as far as I know it takes it's time doing selftests etc. :=\
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And the TBS2000B series has it too. But might be true that it has something to do with battery power or the small size.
Yeah, not really a problem... A PSU for probes few 100s of mA is like 1sq cm.... They could have made it to be limited power like Keysight MSOX3000T so you can at least connect one current probe.
No. That is marketing decision. On software side it has their new touch GUI and it basically has many a 3000 series features, without RF part, and only 500MHz front end. Since many people don't go for 1GHz model or need SA part in a scope (which is not really good, and unlike 4 series is not correlated with time domain), if they made it really fully featured it would pretty much cannibalize sales of their own 3 series.
So they decided to make it close, but no cigar...
What we see lately is that 1000/2000 and 2000/3000 series ranges are blending together..
I don't think Keysight will ever release new 2000G series. Their 1000 series has even more capabilities than 2000A and 3000 series prices are better than they used to be...
Rigol has 5000/7000/8000 series and a 1000Z at the bottom..
Siglent has 1000/2000/5000/6000 series.
As I said, this is a unusual device. Like RTB2000, it is artificially crippled not to eat into their own 3000 series..
And like RTB2000 their market is people that need just basic scope but are willing to pay much more for a cool looks and what they think is a fancy name...
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If only it boot up as fast as RTB, and as far as I know it takes it's time doing selftests etc. :=\
Unfortunately the boot is, well, :=\
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To be fair it'll better than the realistic "boot time" on most old analogue scopes.
From the Tek 465 service manual...
(https://imgur.com/qDEKdgA.jpg)
That's how I feel better about such things anyway :-DD
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To be fair it'll better than the realistic "boot time" on most old analogue scopes.
From the Tek 465 service manual...
(https://imgur.com/qDEKdgA.jpg)
That's how I feel better about such things anyway :-DD
"Boot time" and "warm up time" are two completely different animals. Even modern equipment needs a specified warm up after boot to achieve best stability.
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If we are going to nitpick or ant f.. like we Dutch like to say a true analog scope does not have boot time. No digital processor in there :-DD
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If we are going to nitpick or ant f.. like we Dutch like to say a true analog scope does not have boot time. No digital processor in there :-DD
Amongst others, the Tek 24x5 series do :)
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If we are going to nitpick or ant f.. like we Dutch like to say a true analog scope does not have boot time. No digital processor in there :-DD
Some of them do but it's a silly argument.
Much better to argue over how long the electron gun takes to warm up and produce a decent trace on the screen.
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I don't because it doesn't have TekVPI interface. This makes all their probes unusable like current or differential probes. Don't understand why they decided that way.
At the beginning i was surprised as well.
No TekVPI?
But... reason is TekVPI uses power, that collides with beeing battery powered. Also the size.
RTB2004 also has pure BNCs.
50ohm? Active probes?
Which lowest series scope has that?
Most scopes are at best 50ohm//20pF - since they merely bang a 50ohm in parallel with the 1Mohm/20pF input.
I'd like to see some references for that. Most of the scopes I've seen make sure the input is purely 50 Ohm and have a relay to switch between paths. 50 Ohm with 20pf in parallel is pretty much useless.
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And the TBS2000B series has it too. But might be true that it has something to do with battery power or the small size.
Yeah, not really a problem... A PSU for probes few 100s of mA is like 1sq cm.... They could have made it to be limited power like Keysight MSOX3000T so you can at least connect one current probe.
No. That is marketing decision. On software side it has their new touch GUI and it basically has many a 3000 series features, without RF part, and only 500MHz front end. Since many people don't go for 1GHz model or need SA part in a scope (which is not really good, and unlike 4 series is not correlated with time domain), if they made it really fully featured it would pretty much cannibalize sales of their own 3 series.
So they decided to make it close, but no cigar...
What we see lately is that 1000/2000 and 2000/3000 series ranges are blending together..
That is a good thing because the oscilloscope market is way too segmented with only little differences between the models. Even up to a point where some manufacturers already use the same hardware for different ranges.
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Added some processing to the image to pull contrast up....
(https://imgur.com/nvezf7r.jpg)
Hmm, 2 days later comes a new 2000 series Siglent. :popcorn:
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And the TBS2000B series has it too. But might be true that it has something to do with battery power or the small size.
Yeah, not really a problem... A PSU for probes few 100s of mA is like 1sq cm.... They could have made it to be limited power like Keysight MSOX3000T so you can at least connect one current probe.
No. That is marketing decision. On software side it has their new touch GUI and it basically has many a 3000 series features, without RF part, and only 500MHz front end. Since many people don't go for 1GHz model or need SA part in a scope (which is not really good, and unlike 4 series is not correlated with time domain), if they made it really fully featured it would pretty much cannibalize sales of their own 3 series.
So they decided to make it close, but no cigar...
What we see lately is that 1000/2000 and 2000/3000 series ranges are blending together..
That is a good thing because the oscilloscope market is way too segmented with only little differences between the models. Even up to a point where some manufacturers already use the same hardware for different ranges.
Agree.
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I don't because it doesn't have TekVPI interface. This makes all their probes unusable like current or differential probes. Don't understand why they decided that way.
At the beginning i was surprised as well.
No TekVPI?
But... reason is TekVPI uses power, that collides with beeing battery powered. Also the size.
RTB2004 also has pure BNCs.
50ohm? Active probes?
Which lowest series scope has that?
Most scopes are at best 50ohm//20pF - since they merely bang a 50ohm in parallel with the 1Mohm/20pF input.
I'd like to see some references for that. Most of the scopes I've seen make sure the input is purely 50 Ohm and have a relay to switch between paths. 50 Ohm with 20pf in parallel is pretty much useless.
Strawman arguments never look good. Don't snip the important caveats! In this case "High end scopes, spectrum analysers, etc are 50ohm only."
I'll throw your question back at you: which non-high-end scopes have true 50ohm inputs, and what impedance is their input attenuator?
Common examples of 50ohm//15pF inputs are the wildly successful Tek24x5 scopes; there are many others.
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Bit pissed off the Farnell datasheet link has been pulled ...... anyone have another link or saved copy they can flick my way ?
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Bit pissed off the Farnell datasheet link has been pulled ...... anyone have another link or saved copy they can flick my way ?
Grab it now. (https://meocloud.pt/link/4c853ffc-0db9-4937-ac35-12f7a87ae4fd/3723180.pdf)
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I just noticed this: Apparently the PC software is an extra cost... :o
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1496782;image)
(Wonder how much the "MIL" costs?)
Between this, the yearly calibrations and the maintenance contracts this thing could cost a lot of money, long-term.
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Bit pissed off the Farnell datasheet link has been pulled ...... anyone have another link or saved copy they can flick my way ?
Grab it now. (https://meocloud.pt/link/4c853ffc-0db9-4937-ac35-12f7a87ae4fd/3723180.pdf)
You gorgeous thing you ! :-*
All 12.2 MB successfully grabbed.
Here, have another. :-* :-DD
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When was this supposed to be revealed - June 7? I don't suppose Tektronix was naive enough to really think they could keep all the leaks under control did they? :-//
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When was this supposed to be revealed - June 7? I don't suppose Tektronix was naive enough to really think they could keep all the leaks under control did they? :-//
Of course not. This is all part of the process - the human race loves gossip and speculation and believing they know things they're not supposed to know.
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Of course not. This is all part of the process - the human race loves gossip and speculation and believing they know things they're not supposed to know.
:) Who knows the keygen will also beat the June 7th deadline...
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:) Who knows the keygen will also beat the June 7th deadline...
If there's a keygen to unlock all options on the base model then it's going to be a nice deal.
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I just noticed this: Apparently the PC software is an extra cost... :o
Yes, it is an extra cost. There is no free version of Tekscope software anymore.
https://www.tekcloud.com/tekscope/pricing/ (https://www.tekcloud.com/tekscope/pricing/)
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Yes, it is an extra cost. There is no free version of Tekscope software anymore.
https://www.tekcloud.com/tekscope/pricing/ (https://www.tekcloud.com/tekscope/pricing/)
At least you can get everything and all the 'Pro' licenses for a one-time fee. Just figure on adding $1310 to the price of the scope and consider it an all-inclusive package deal. That's better than companies that insist on bleeding you dry by charging separately for each and every decoding protocol, etc.
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When was this supposed to be revealed - June 7? I don't suppose Tektronix was naive enough to really think they could keep all the leaks under control did they? :-//
It's impossible. You have to give datasheets and photos etc all the distributors who then load it onto their website ready for release, but the search crawlers will eventually find it.
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:) Who knows the keygen will also beat the June 7th deadline...
If there's a keygen to unlock all options on the base model then it's going to be a nice deal.
Will be interesting to see if it happens. AFAIK is hasn't happened for the 3/4/5/6 series yet?
Probably because the prices are so high on those that those who hack things like this aren't going to spend the money to get one.
Series 2 two could be different, it's R&S RTB type pricing for the base model.
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Hi all,
Do you have seen that bundles are not only to be purchase for almost any functions,
but there is also a one year subscription only available for each ?!...
They have already in mind that license options are sssoooo expensive that
limited time bundle would be more affordable (Sic!). ::)
Frex
I just noticed this: Apparently the PC software is an extra cost... :o
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1496782;image)
(Wonder how much the "MIL" costs?)
Between this, the yearly calibrations and the maintenance contracts this thing could cost a lot of money, long-term.
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Yes, it is an extra cost. There is no free version of Tekscope software anymore.
https://www.tekcloud.com/tekscope/pricing/ (https://www.tekcloud.com/tekscope/pricing/)
At least you can get everything and all the 'Pro' licenses for a one-time fee. Just figure on adding $1310 to the price of the scope and consider it an all-inclusive package deal. That's better than companies that insist on bleeding you dry by charging separately for each and every decoding protocol, etc.
Just for the scope independent decode its not a bad deal, with the big disclaimer that its offline decode and doesn't enable the protocol/serial triggers on the scope (which are priced higher than the offline package). Now if someone would just make some open source software to do that sort of thing across different bands/models of scope.....
https://sigrok.org/wiki/Main_Page (https://sigrok.org/wiki/Main_Page)
;)
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:) Who knows the keygen will also beat the June 7th deadline...
If there's a keygen to unlock all options on the base model then it's going to be a nice deal.
Will be interesting to see if it happens. AFAIK is hasn't happened for the 3/4/5/6 series yet?
Probably because the prices are so high on those that those who hack things like this aren't going to spend the money to get one.
Series 2 two could be different, it's R&S RTB type pricing for the base model.
I'm quite sure that if you ask the right questions to the right people a key generator turns up. But IMHO very few are likely to want to use it until the equipment is no longer produced. Personally I want to respect the engineering that goes into making good equipment.
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Just for the scope independent decode its not a bad deal, with the big disclaimer that its offline decode and doesn't enable the protocol/serial triggers on the scope (which are priced higher than the offline package). )
I didn't realize that the 'Pro' licenses were not actual scope licenses....ugh!
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Totally unreleated product.
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Totally unreleated product.
Insides of the HD ?
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Tic... tac...
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Totally unreleated product.
That's a TALL capacitor.
What timezone do the NDAs expire in? Sydney, Australia, or do we have to wait...? :popcorn:
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Totally unreleated product.
That's a TALL capacitor.
What timezone do the NDAs expire in? Sydney, Australia, or do we have to wait...? :popcorn:
Is that also a tall, badly soldered capacitor?
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What timezone do the NDAs expire in? Sydney, Australia, or do we have to wait...? :popcorn:
Only 6.32am in east OZ and likely Dave's not outta the scratcher just yet.
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What timezone do the NDAs expire in? Sydney, Australia, or do we have to wait...? :popcorn:
;D Kiribati. So, no problem.
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Totally unreleated product.
That's a TALL capacitor.
What timezone do the NDAs expire in? Sydney, Australia, or do we have to wait...? :popcorn:
Is that also a tall, badly soldered capacitor?
Be aware that my unit is a qualification build, not production. I've had it since April.
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Unfortunately things have come up, and the date has crept up on me, so I won't have a review video available on release.
Finishing off on the teardown video today so should have that. I also have first impressions video and a talk about the design with Andy Tedd from Tektronix on the 2nd channel.
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What timezone do the NDAs expire in? Sydney, Australia, or do we have to wait...? :popcorn:
They have asked me not to release anything until 6:50am PST. Yes, to the minute :-//
They go live at 6:18am PST
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html?iso=20220607T145000&p1=tz_pst&p2=240 (https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html?iso=20220607T145000&p1=tz_pst&p2=240)
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That's gonna be a long day :-DD :-DD
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Bit pissed off the Farnell datasheet link has been pulled ...... anyone have another link or saved copy they can flick my way ?
Grab it now. (https://meocloud.pt/link/4c853ffc-0db9-4937-ac35-12f7a87ae4fd/3723180.pdf)
link expired :( anyone else has a link to the datasheet? thank you!
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It's already on the Tek website! So much for the embargo :-//
https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes/2-series-mso (https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes/2-series-mso)
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They called all their other new 3-6 series Next Gen too.
To be fair, it was Next Gen for Tek. Their stuff was very outdated before the 3-6 series that came out. I was sad to see the state Tektronix was in as the former beloved American flagship brand of oscilloscopes. I do think they redeemed themselves with their new scopes instead of selling junk by slapping a trusted brand label on it. As a hobbyist, they are out of reach for me at the moment, but I keep dreaming they will make a killer entry-level scope for the educational market, but I won't hold my breath, lol.
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Their marketing team are clearly of the red fluffy hair and large shoes variety. I hope they can all fit in their tiny car. :palm:
Now I've seen it in the flesh though, it's one ugly looking thing. Looks more like cheap muso gear.
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I'm sorry, but to me, shiny membrane keyboards scream kitchen appliance..
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It's already on the Tek website! So much for the embargo :-//
https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes/2-series-mso (https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes/2-series-mso)
So now we can see some more details....
Name another scope that:
- Moves seamlessly from bench use to portable use, with VESA mount and rack mount option.
We could equally take aim at your blind fanboy/marketing take, VESA mounts are notoriously not seamless for moving between mounted and mobile: "VESA mounting points on rear of instrument" of the standard type that is held in with screws. Perhpas if there were some tidy clip on/off accessory or mount that easily swapped with the battery pack you might have a point (particularly integrating power delivery), but there is nothing to suggest that in the material available.
I think the integral VESA mount is an excellent idea and will be well received. You might be a tad embaressed when you see how well it's all integrated.
And the VESA mount is exactly as expected, just 4 hard screw mounts on the back of the scope shell, which get blocked by attaching other (optionally available for extra charge) stands:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1505446;image)
Not seamless, not integrated, another checkbox for marketing that although useful is massively overblown/misleading. Not embarrassed at all with my accurate prediction.
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Micsig in a hurry :box:
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And the VESA mount is exactly as expected, just 4 hard screw mounts on the back of the scope shell, which get blocked by attaching other (optionally available for extra charge) stands:
Not seamless, not integrated, another checkbox for marketing that although useful is massively overblown/misleading. Not embarrassed at all with my accurate prediction.
Why would you want to use the VESA mount with either of the stands? That makes no sense :-//
The metal stand and VESA mount is the best thing about this scope IMO, it's very nicely integrated.
And the battery pack does have the VESA mount extended on the back of it, so they have clearly thought about this.
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Are we going start a pool on pricing? :popcorn:
I'll say $3500 USD for the entry level 2-channel, 70Mhz model, rising to about $12000 for fully-loaded 4-channel 350Mhz MSO with all options (probes sold separately...)
Serial decoders? $1200 for RS232/I2C+SPI, another $1200 for CAN.
Battery option? "The price of a Micsig for the adapter+one battery and an extra $250 for each additional battery"
Rubber bumpers? $300
Not far off!
Battery slot + 1 battery $700, extra battery $300.
Case, bumper, kickstand, $300
All serial decodes, $650
2500$ for basic i bet. 12K for fully loaded one? No way. 7K max. Well maybe 500 MHz will bump the price.
There is only one serial bundle and CAN is included according to datasheet.
See below, 2700/10700 scope only, fully loaded $13k....
500MHz probes sold separately even if you order the higher end models! They might be shipping all the boxes to the distributors/retailers with the same hardware config and TPP0200 200MHz probes.
I don't care for this bullshit let's compare it to other 2000 series.. Only comparison is by price.
Yep, misleading comparisons to scopes half the price, thanks Tek + fanboy/booster/influencer Dave
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Some cherry picking and outright deliberately misleading omissions in the "Compare" section on the Tek page, though I do like that it has a VESA mount (do the Micsigs?)
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And the VESA mount is exactly as expected, just 4 hard screw mounts on the back of the scope shell, which get blocked by attaching other (optionally available for extra charge) stands:
Not seamless, not integrated, another checkbox for marketing that although useful is massively overblown/misleading. Not embarrassed at all with my accurate prediction.
Why would you want to use the VESA mount with either of the stands? That makes no sense :-//
The metal stand and VESA mount is the best thing about this scope IMO, it's very nicely integrated.
And the battery pack does have the VESA mount extended on the back of it, so they have clearly thought about this.
The quote is right there in full, have at it again:
Name another scope that:
- Moves seamlessly from bench use to portable use, with VESA mount and rack mount option.
We could equally take aim at your blind fanboy/marketing take, VESA mounts are notoriously not seamless for moving between mounted and mobile: "VESA mounting points on rear of instrument" of the standard type that is held in with screws. Perhpas if there were some tidy clip on/off accessory or mount that easily swapped with the battery pack you might have a point (particularly integrating power delivery), but there is nothing to suggest that in the material available.
I think the integral VESA mount is an excellent idea and will be well received. You might be a tad embaressed when you see how well it's all integrated.
And the VESA mount is exactly as expected, just 4 hard screw mounts on the back of the scope shell, which get blocked by attaching other (optionally available for extra charge) stands:
[picture]
Not seamless, not integrated, another checkbox for marketing that although useful is massively overblown/misleading. Not embarrassed at all with my accurate prediction.
I said it was going to be a set of hard mounting points that would preclude it from being portable if mounted. You said "nah uhh, I know the secret and its awesome". Oh look its not awesome, clever, or anything special. Just a straight out VESA mount that is mutually exclusive with portability.
But you want to argue you were still "right" somehow?
Marketing nonsense it exactly what you used to say you were immune to and would see through, but here you are trying to defend it.
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It's already on the Tek website! So much for the embargo :-//
https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes/2-series-mso (https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes/2-series-mso)
Dave, it's time for you to update the title of the thread and make it more meaningful regarding the subject in question.
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I don't care for this bullshit let's compare it to other 2000 series.. Only comparison is by price.
Yep, misleading comparisons to scopes half the price, thanks Tek + fanboy/booster/influencer Dave
Me a Tek fanboy? I absolutely savaged their MDO 3 series scope when it came out, so much so they didn't talk to me again until this.
And I have made absolutely no claims about price or comparisons, other than I said it was on par with the RTB2000 series base price.
The base model 70MHz 2CH version is US$1800 and the 4CH 70MHz is US$2740
The 2CH 70MHz RTB2002 is US$1730 at Tequipment, and US$2400 at Element 14, and the 4CH 70MHz RTB2004 is $2635, exactly on par in pricing as I said.
Yes the extras are expensive, it's Tektronix, only a fool would expect anything less.
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Dave, it's time for you to update the title of the thread and make it more meaningful regarding the subject in question.
Done.
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Taken from the video.
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I see it the same way. Compared to RTB2004. Retail price, no promos etc.
And as with everything, price is a relative thing. For some that is expensive, for some that is pocket money.
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I keep dreaming they will make a killer entry-level scope for the educational market, but I won't hold my breath, lol.
Killer, entry-level, pick one.
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And the VESA mount is exactly as expected, just 4 hard screw mounts on the back of the scope shell, which get blocked by attaching other (optionally available for extra charge) stands:
Not seamless, not integrated, another checkbox for marketing that although useful is massively overblown/misleading. Not embarrassed at all with my accurate prediction.
Why would you want to use the VESA mount with either of the stands? That makes no sense :-//
The metal stand and VESA mount is the best thing about this scope IMO, it's very nicely integrated.
And the battery pack does have the VESA mount extended on the back of it, so they have clearly thought about this.
The quote is right there in full, have at it again:
Name another scope that:
- Moves seamlessly from bench use to portable use, with VESA mount and rack mount option.
We could equally take aim at your blind fanboy/marketing take, VESA mounts are notoriously not seamless for moving between mounted and mobile: "VESA mounting points on rear of instrument" of the standard type that is held in with screws. Perhpas if there were some tidy clip on/off accessory or mount that easily swapped with the battery pack you might have a point (particularly integrating power delivery), but there is nothing to suggest that in the material available.
I think the integral VESA mount is an excellent idea and will be well received. You might be a tad embaressed when you see how well it's all integrated.
And the VESA mount is exactly as expected, just 4 hard screw mounts on the back of the scope shell, which get blocked by attaching other (optionally available for extra charge) stands:
[picture]
Not seamless, not integrated, another checkbox for marketing that although useful is massively overblown/misleading. Not embarrassed at all with my accurate prediction.
I said it was going to be a set of hard mounting points that would preclude it from being portable if mounted. You said "nah uhh, I know the secret and its awesome". Oh look its not awesome, clever, or anything special. Just a straight out VESA mount that is mutually exclusive with portability.
But you want to argue you were still "right" somehow?
Marketing nonsense it exactly what you used to say you were immune to and would see through, but here you are trying to defend it.
Why all the anger? It's as if you are personally offended that Tektronix didn't make the exact product you demaded at the price you demanded ::)
You clearly don't understand what's happening here.
VESA mounts are on the back of the scope AND battery pack, so you can mount the scope WITH or WITHOUT the battery pack to EITHER the sexy metal handle stand which has 4 angles of viewing depending on which (very nice) thumb screws you use and which way you orient it. Or you can use the plastic kick stand on EITHER the battery back version or direct on the scope.
You are demonstrably wrong that "Just a straight out VESA mount that is mutually exclusive with portability". Absolutely wrong. I have it here in front of me.
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Understand what they are trying to acheive here, but as per past Tek launches it fails yet again. Suspect this is aimed at setas of learning and faceless companies that can make a phone to the 35+ years association with their bearded Tek rep circa 1972 and order 50+ bean counters won;t be whinging once the 35%+ discount kicks in for that kind of order. Yawn.
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I see it the same way. Compared to RTB2004. Retail price, no promos etc.
And as with everything, price is a relative thing. For some that is expensive, for some that is pocket money.
Apart from the educational targeted TBS scopes that almost no one but educational instritutions buy, Tektronix have never offered true entry level prices scopes.
They have clearly targeted in pricing against the RTB2000 and Keysight 2000, as thier product comparison demonstrates:
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Aannnnnnd I've gone and lost the battery pack screws :palm:
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I'm 99% sure that I'll put one on order. It looks perfect for my everyday work.
It feels like an RTB2000 with nice form factor and that is what I'm after.
I was thinking about micsig, and after seeing this, I will also consider getting one privately. (But here I would get cheapest 4channel and pray for someone to crack it :-DD)
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Understand what they are trying to acheive here, but as per past Tek launches it fails yet again. Suspect this is aimed at setas of learning and faceless companies that can make a phone to the 35+ years association with their bearded Tek rep circa 1972 and order 50+ bean counters won;t be whinging once the 35%+ discount kicks in for that kind of order. Yawn.
Out of curiosity, in your opinion how does it "fail"? Sounds like it's pricing?
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They have clearly targeted in pricing against the RTB2000 and Keysight 2000, as thier product comparison demonstrates:
Their product comparison is incorrect regarding trigger types on the RTB2000: the RTB has a setup and hold trigger (called "Data2Clock"), can trigger on logic patterns, and can also trigger on parallel data.
I know all this because I'm about to release a few more installments in the "Getting Started with the RTB2000" series on the R&S YouTube channel and in one of the videos I explain how to configure and use all of these triggers :)
And funny how they didn't include boot time in the comparison with the RTB .... hmmmm ..... :)
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I know all this because I'm about to release a few more installments in the "Getting Started with the RTB2000" series on the R&S YouTube channel and explain how to configure and use all of these triggers :)
And funny how they didn't include boot time in the comparison with the RTB .... hmmmm ..... :)
Looking forward to it :-+ :-+ :-+
And boot time on RTB.... LOVE IT!
But just out of curiousity, tek distributor told me that long boot on TEK is related with selftesting. How is that in RTB?
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And the VESA mount is exactly as expected, just 4 hard screw mounts on the back of the scope shell, which get blocked by attaching other (optionally available for extra charge) stands:
Not seamless, not integrated, another checkbox for marketing that although useful is massively overblown/misleading. Not embarrassed at all with my accurate prediction.
Why would you want to use the VESA mount with either of the stands? That makes no sense :-//
The metal stand and VESA mount is the best thing about this scope IMO, it's very nicely integrated.
And the battery pack does have the VESA mount extended on the back of it, so they have clearly thought about this.
The quote is right there in full, have at it again:
Name another scope that:
- Moves seamlessly from bench use to portable use, with VESA mount and rack mount option.
We could equally take aim at your blind fanboy/marketing take, VESA mounts are notoriously not seamless for moving between mounted and mobile: "VESA mounting points on rear of instrument" of the standard type that is held in with screws. Perhpas if there were some tidy clip on/off accessory or mount that easily swapped with the battery pack you might have a point (particularly integrating power delivery), but there is nothing to suggest that in the material available.
I think the integral VESA mount is an excellent idea and will be well received. You might be a tad embaressed when you see how well it's all integrated.
And the VESA mount is exactly as expected, just 4 hard screw mounts on the back of the scope shell, which get blocked by attaching other (optionally available for extra charge) stands:
[picture]
Not seamless, not integrated, another checkbox for marketing that although useful is massively overblown/misleading. Not embarrassed at all with my accurate prediction.
I said it was going to be a set of hard mounting points that would preclude it from being portable if mounted. You said "nah uhh, I know the secret and its awesome". Oh look its not awesome, clever, or anything special. Just a straight out VESA mount that is mutually exclusive with portability.
But you want to argue you were still "right" somehow?
Marketing nonsense it exactly what you used to say you were immune to and would see through, but here you are trying to defend it.
Why all the anger? It's as if you are personally offended that Tektronix didn't make the exact product you demaded at the price you demanded ::)
You clearly don't understand what's happening here.
VESA mounts are on the back of the scope AND battery pack, so you can mount the scope WITH or WITHOUT the battery pack to EITHER the sexy metal handle stand which has 4 angles of viewing depending on which (very nice) thumb screws you use and which way you orient it. Or you can use the plastic kick stand on EITHER the battery back version or direct on the scope.
You are demonstrably wrong that "Just a straight out VESA mount that is mutually exclusive with portability". Absolutely wrong. I have it here in front of me.
You keep making it out to be somehow counter/different to what I said. Its really simple....
there is a VESA mount
it could be attached to a standard monitor arm/stand
or one of their accessories
and is duplicated on the back of the battery pack so you can still use the same accessories when its fitted
.... then its a matter of interpretation. You pushed the marketing nonsense about it, and I quote verbatim:
Name another scope that:
- Moves seamlessly from bench use to portable use, with VESA mount and rack mount option.
It doesn't move seamlessly from bench to portable use, nothing clips on/off in a smooth motion. There is a VESA mount that things can be screwed onto, and to swap mount/position/use you need to unscrew the current mount and then screw on another (or in another position).
1000% not seamless, it looks like a stand is pretty much mandatory to use this scope with (such as the one included that offers different set/mounted angles) which immediately uses up the VESA mount. The stands/configurations are mutually exclusive, you can't pick it up off the tilting mount and have it sit flat. As others pointed out the size/weight of this makes the power cabling and probes a significant force (common to many of these small plastic scopes).
The only thing going for it is that it does have the VESA mounts. But you keep talking like they are more than just a set of dumb threaded holes. A nice feature, but not some ingeniously integrated design wonder that is making me embarrassed for correctly guessing they would be just some holes on the back of the scope.
No anger, just cutting through your fake shutting down of discussion by insisting you are the only voice. The selection of stands is something I see as a negative rather than a positive, they couldn't come up with a coherent design that covers the basic needs so instead offer "choices" that still aren't as practical/functional as the competition. Instead you keep chipping away and insinuating that I was somewhere incorrect, why post this constantly as contrary? We seem to agree on the actual facts, and disagree on your way of pushing them. I'll come back around with you doing again:
I don't care for this bullshit let's compare it to other 2000 series.. Only comparison is by price.
Yep, misleading comparisons to scopes half the price, thanks Tek + fanboy/booster/influencer Dave
Me a Tek fanboy? I absolutely savaged their MDO 3 series scope when it came out, so much so they didn't talk to me again until this.
And I have made absolutely no claims about price or comparisons, other than I said it was on par with the RTB2000 series base price.
The base model 70MHz 2CH version is US$1800 and the 4CH 70MHz is US$2740
The 2CH 70MHz RTB2002 is US$1730 at Tequipment, and US$2400 at Element 14, and the 4CH 70MHz RTB2004 is $2635, exactly on par in pricing as I said.
Yes the extras are expensive, it's Tektronix, only a fool would expect anything less.
and then almost immediately.... right back to making selective comparisons:
I see it the same way. Compared to RTB2004. Retail price, no promos etc.
And as with everything, price is a relative thing. For some that is expensive, for some that is pocket money.
Apart from the educational targeted TBS scopes that almost no one but educational instritutions buy, Tektronix have never offered true entry level prices scopes.
They have clearly targeted in pricing against the RTB2000 and Keysight 2000, as thier product comparison demonstrates:
That's you bringing up the aging Keysight 2000 series, as some desperate strawman. Who really would be thinking of a Keysight 2000 series in light of their 1000 series? Its marketing crap and you know it. Keeping on with that is why I'm calling this out as lazy pushing of the Tek marking points. No analysis, no independent view, regurgitated marketing non-lies (avoiding embarrassing truths).
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They have clearly targeted in pricing against the RTB2000 and Keysight 2000, as thier product comparison demonstrates:
Their product comparison is incorrect regarding trigger types on the RTB2000: the RTB has a setup and hold trigger (called "Data2Clock"), can trigger on logic patterns, and can also trigger on parallel data.
I know all this because I'm about to release a few more installments in the "Getting Started with the RTB2000" series on the R&S YouTube channel and in one of the videos I explain how to configure and use all of these triggers :)
And funny how they didn't include boot time in the comparison with the RTB .... hmmmm ..... :)
Yeah this sort of thing is was what I was referring to with "Some cherry picking and outright deliberately misleading omissions" in their comparisons - while I don't have experience with the KS 2k series scope, the R&S has: actually 20Mpts max single-capture memory in half-channel mode (plus up to 160 across multiple captures in segmented mode), 10-bit depth etc, all of which is of course omitted as it doesn't make the Tek look good. Though I probably shouldn't just point the finger at Tek, I bet other manufacturers shovel similar BS.
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I see it the same way. Compared to RTB2004. Retail price, no promos etc.
And as with everything, price is a relative thing. For some that is expensive, for some that is pocket money.
You seem to be missing the point.. This is not BMW forum where rich kids bulshit about which car is more fancy and they don't care how much it costs "because I'm worth it".. And daddy pays for it...
That thinking is maybe justified for a wealthy hobby user that likes expensive stuff as way of treating itself to a feelgood toys, without a need to make real work and be cost effective.
For a professional user, price/performance is important, even for places that have no problem buying 250000 USD VNA if they have a business need for it and if it is necessary to do the job...
While this scope is a refreshing thing coming from otherwise very complacent Tek, it is very misguided product in a very Tek way.
They are competing with RTB2000 and pricing it according to it? Why? RTB2000 itself has an identity crysis, where it is not really selling too well compared to other competitors on the market, so Tek decided to enter another contestant to a scope class that is "not really professional range, but too expensive for hobby market, and less capable than some other less expensive offerings".
I spoke to people on R&S booth some years ago, and at the boot there were people who could discuss excruciating details about 150000USD VNA, but nobody seemed to know anything about RTB2000 that was standing right there... After a scope expert joined the conversation, he politely and under the voice said to me that I should take a look at 3000/4000 series or up the range for serious work... He said RTB2000 is nice and all but for professional work a to limited...I actually appreciated honesty and if anything have great respect for them.
This Tek is just that. More form than substance.
And if this scope is good enough for your work, than a Micsig that costs 5-6x less is also good enough. And for the difference in money you buy something else you need. A "any moment to be released" new Siglent SDS2000X HD will be in price range (actually much cheaper as you go up the range) , and has 12Bit resolution, for instance..
And why is Tek (or anybody else for that matter) even offering 70 MHz anymore...??
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I can now see how the metal stand prevents it from falling over backward. The important parts were not revealed before. However, using any angled stand I've ever had, the designers have never chosen the angle I prefer. In this one it's flat, 90 deg. or the one angle. Why not make it adjustable?
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Though I probably shouldn't just point the finger at Tek, I bet other manufacturers shovel similar BS.
That is what's called Marketing ... And Tek is no different than others.
Personally it makes me sick seeing companies comparing themselves to each other, bringing out only better specs, not mentioning worse.
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Yeah this sort of thing is was what I was referring to with "Some cherry picking and outright deliberately misleading omissions" in their comparisons - while I don't have experience with the KS 2k series scope, the R&S has: actually 20Mpts max single-capture memory in half-channel mode (plus up to 160 across multiple captures in segmented mode), 10-bit depth etc.
Yeah, I kind of assumed the new Tek scope was only 8 bits when that wasn't on the comparison either ....
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there is a VESA mount
it could be attached to a standard monitor arm/stand
or one of their accessories
and is duplicated on the back of the battery pack so you can still use the same accessories when its fitted
.... then its a matter of interpretation. You pushed the marketing nonsense about it, and I quote verbatim:
Name another scope that:
- Moves seamlessly from bench use to portable use, with VESA mount and rack mount option.
It doesn't move seamlessly from bench to portable use, nothing clips on/off in a smooth motion. There is a VESA mount that things can be screwed onto, and to swap mount/position/use you need to unscrew the current mount and then screw on another (or in another position).
1000% not seamless, it looks like a stand is pretty much mandatory to use this scope with (such as the one included that offers different set/mounted angles) which immediately uses up the VESA mount. The stands/configurations are mutually exclusive, you can't pick it up off the tilting mount and have it sit flat. As others pointed out the size/weight of this makes the power cabling and probes a significant force (common to many of these small plastic scopes).
The only thing going for it is that it does have the VESA mounts. But you keep talking like they are more than just a set of dumb threaded holes. A nice feature, but not some ingeniously integrated design wonder that is making me embarrassed for correctly guessing they would be just some holes on the back of the scope.
Ok, fine, I'm done, you clearly have some grudge to nit pick about my wording in a post. I'm not playing.
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I can now see how the metal stand prevents it from falling over backward. The important parts were not revealed before. However, using any angled stand I've ever had, the designers have never chosen the angle I prefer. In this one it's flat, 90 deg. or the one angle. Why not make it adjustable?
It has two angles, 90deg or slightly angled, haven't measured it. And two if you flip it around so it's flat or slightly angled laying down.
I also questioned why it didn't have a hinge in my reaction video.
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Understand what they are trying to acheive here, but as per past Tek launches it fails yet again. Suspect this is aimed at setas of learning and faceless companies that can make a phone to the 35+ years association with their bearded Tek rep circa 1972 and order 50+ bean counters won;t be whinging once the 35%+ discount kicks in for that kind of order. Yawn.
Out of curiosity, in your opinion how does it "fail"? Sounds like it's pricing?
Quite.
Such statements without reasons are merely noise.
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For a professional user, price/performance is important, even for places that have no problem buying 250000 USD VNA if they have a business need for it and if it is necessary to do the job...
It's no different to the 3, 4, 5, or 6 series in this regard. I'm not sure why anyone expected anything else?
They had the 3 series and could obviously not canibalise that market segment.
While this scope is a refreshing thing coming from otherwise very complacent Tek, it is very misguided product in a very Tek way.
They are competing with RTB2000 and pricing it according to it? Why?
Because they couldn't canibalise the existing 3 series market, and wanted to offer something a bit different in terms of useability in the lower end.
Marketing then had to compare it to something, because that's what marketing does. IMO they are really comparable, so it's just another top level marketing comparison table that conveniently leaves off stuff that hurts them. Nothing new here.
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Though I probably shouldn't just point the finger at Tek, I bet other manufacturers shovel similar BS.
That is what's called Marketing ... And Tek is no different than others.
Personally it makes me sick seeing companies comparing themselves to each other, bringing out only better specs, not mentioning worse.
Bill and Dave didn't allow their salesmen to make detrimental comparisons. They did allow them to point out significant features, and let their customers decide whether they were benefits.
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You seem to be missing the point.. This is not BMW forum where rich kids bulshit about which car is more fancy and they don't care how much it costs "because I'm worth it".. And daddy pays for it...
Sorry, but you got it wrong.
As per now it's one and the only, such a compact device, with removable batteries and good capabilities.
Please don't forget, that oscilloscopes are used also for slow signals, that don't require more than RTB2K can offer.
That is the case for me. Here having choice R&S 2K and Tek MSO2 for traveling with it, Tek wins. As simple as that I can put it in my bagpack, R&S I can't.
And money wise. For bussiness that amounts are peanuts, just another tool in toolbox.
Show me another device in such a form factor and similar capabilities.
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Just seen this today.
MSO242-BW-500 4 Analog Channels, 2.5GS/s sample rate, 10Mpts record length 500MHz Bandwidth (It's unclear if Logic analyzer is included or not) €9760
MSOX3054T MSO / MDO Oscilloscope, InfiniiVision 3000T X, 4+16 Channel, 500 MHz, 5 GSPS, 4 Mpts, 700 ps € 13160
Seems to be competitively priced. Though it comes with 1 year warranty :wtf:
The vesa mount is a good idea, I can totally see this wall mounted, taking zero space from the bench. Did anyone see a picture of the power brick?
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You seem to be missing the point.. This is not BMW forum where rich kids bulshit about which car is more fancy and they don't care how much it costs "because I'm worth it".. And daddy pays for it...
Sorry, but you got it wrong.
As per now it's one and the only, such a compact device, with removable batteries and good capabilities.
Please don't forget, that oscilloscopes are used also for slow signals, that don't require more than RTB2K can offer.
That is the case for me. Here having choice R&S 2K and Tek MSO2 for traveling with it, Tek wins. As simple as that I can put it in my bagpack, R&S I can't.
And money wise. For bussiness that amounts are peanuts, just another tool in toolbox.
Show me another device in such a form factor and similar capabilities.
What capabilities you will use?? Could you explain a bit, roughly, please? BW, channels etc..
There are many devices that are better stationary scopes and better portable scopes...
You might have a specific niche need where this scope might be good fit, for whatever reason, I cannot argue with that. In fact, you can decide to get some equipment because it looks good, because your customers expect that...
Like I said, for instance, membrane keyboards are heaven sent for easy disinfection....If you need that, it might be more important than only having 1 math channel...
But in general, it is a mishmash of many things with no particular focus and too high a price for what it is...
Of course that is my opinion, based on my, well, opinions... ^-^
In my opinion (and that is based on info I have), all of the RTB2000, Keysight 2000 and this Tex are a "placeholder" devices: a device that is there only to fill in a place in a catalog.
And don't get me wrong, I think this is better device than Keysight 2000, as is the RTB2000 better device than Keysight 2000. But that is a moot point because there are many 1000 class devices that are better than Keysight 2000...
Bit if this Tek 2 is priced as it looks to be, you can get a 500MHz R/S RTM3000 series, or Keysight 3000G series, or any number of Siglent devices (including 12 bit) AND a nice really portable battery powered scope for the money.
Very good Micsig scope costs less than battery for Tek...
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I'm sorry, but to me, shiny membrane keyboards scream kitchen appliance..
I have the exact same impression - being burned by older test gear with membrane buttons in the past (Wavetek, for example), I can't shake the feeling of a hard-to-use UI. On the other hand, some membrane buttons can be well made and I would need to actually use it to have a more concrete opinion.
You clearly don't understand what's happening here.
VESA mounts are on the back of the scope AND battery pack, so you can mount the scope WITH or WITHOUT the battery pack to EITHER the sexy metal handle stand which has 4 angles of viewing depending on which (very nice) thumb screws you use and which way you orient it. Or you can use the plastic kick stand on EITHER the battery back version or direct on the scope.
You are demonstrably wrong that "Just a straight out VESA mount that is mutually exclusive with portability".
Indeed VESA mounts are interesting and I would have loved to see a simple clip-on adapter to it as well. It is seamless in the sense it seems that it can be converted from mount to portable, but the inconvenience of the screws is what I think it kills the "seamless" stance.
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What capabilities you will use?? Could you explain a bit, roughly, please? BW, channels etc..
There are many devices that are better stationary scopes and better portable scopes...
Sure, I can give some examples.
Like using mask testing to look for wiring issues with tension cells excitation signal.
Or CAN bus decoding to trigger on faulty frames.
Sure, there are other options. I won't argue with that.
And yes, it's definately not the device with best WYG/$ ratio.
I'm just saying, there is a market for device like that, believe it or not.
And so far not many competitors has descent devices in such a form factor. That is what it is about.
For bench work for someone doing R&D, absolutely, there are way better possibilities.
As a portable device, if you don't mind the price it looks very nice.
Also as simple as adding VESA to such a thin device opens a lot of possibilities for making test benches for simple things, that even 70MHz is enough.
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You seem to be missing the point.. This is not BMW forum where rich kids bulshit about which car is more fancy and they don't care how much it costs "because I'm worth it".. And daddy pays for it...
Sorry, but you got it wrong.
As per now it's one and the only, such a compact device, with removable batteries and good capabilities.
Please don't forget, that oscilloscopes are used also for slow signals, that don't require more than RTB2K can offer.
That is the case for me. Here having choice R&S 2K and Tek MSO2 for traveling with it, Tek wins. As simple as that I can put it in my bagpack, R&S I can't.
That's the trick (currently) with the 2 series. It provides a portable and VESA mount solution no one else has. Especially useful for existing Tek 3/4/5/6 benchtop owners where the interface is exactly the same. There is also the data sharing an automation integration stuff.
If you don't need the portable or VESA mount, or are particually taken with the form factor and/or interface, then it's probably not an option most would consider.
I for one wouldn't chose it over my RTB2004, if I had to choose one.
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In my opinion (and that is based on info I have), all of the RTB2000, Keysight 2000 and this Tex are a "placeholder" devices: a device that is there only to fill in a place in a catalog.
I can't see how you can call it "placholder" when it has the VESA mount and battery options. That alone makes it highly desirable to some market segments.
If it was just a 2 series desktop unit, which is what I actually expected until I opened the bag, then I would agree it was a placeholder.
They seem to have tried to not make it just a placeholder.
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And boot time on RTB.... LOVE IT!
The boot time on the 2 series unfortunately sucks arse :(
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In my opinion (and that is based on info I have), all of the RTB2000, Keysight 2000 and this Tex are a "placeholder" devices: a device that is there only to fill in a place in a catalog.
I can assure you that R&S does not consider the RTB2000 a "placeholder" - it's a very popular product.
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In my opinion (and that is based on info I have), all of the RTB2000, Keysight 2000 and this Tex are a "placeholder" devices: a device that is there only to fill in a place in a catalog.
I can't see how you can call it "placholder" when it has the VESA mount and battery options. That alone makes it highly desirable to some market segments.
If it was just a 2 series desktop unit, which is what I actually expected until I opened the bag, then I would agree it was a placeholder.
They seem to have tried to not make it just a placeholder.
I agree, as I said, there is some innovation... I also would like VESA mounts on all scopes...
But batteries on it are huge module that costs as much as top of the line Micsig.... Whole Micsig is like 1.5 kilos...
It is more portable around the lab.. Where all you get compared to any other scope not needing trying to find a socket and no boot time..
Which (boot time) on RTB2000 is so good, you don't care... By the time you connect probes it's ready...
Portable in field? With battery it is as big and twice as heavy as RTB2000. RTB is actually easier (lighter) to take on travel ...
And really portable scope is something else...
It has some advantages but they are, I don't know, not worth the price they are asking?
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In my opinion (and that is based on info I have), all of the RTB2000, Keysight 2000 and this Tex are a "placeholder" devices: a device that is there only to fill in a place in a catalog.
I can assure you that R&S does not consider the RTB2000 a "placeholder" - it's a very popular product.
With all due respect, that is only a statement that R&S is happy with sales in comparison to internal projections, whatever they are... >:D
And I'm sure there are many happy customers...
But we all know that R&S real strength and focus lies up the chain, where it makes many absolutely extraordinary products...
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I'm sorry, but to me, shiny membrane keyboards scream kitchen appliance..
I have the exact same impression - being burned by older test gear with membrane buttons in the past (Wavetek, for example), I can't shake the feeling of a hard-to-use UI. On the other hand, some membrane buttons can be well made and I would need to actually use it to have a more concrete opinion.
It can be used without the front panel controls at all, using entirely the touch screen or remote screen control.
Indeed VESA mounts are interesting and I would have loved to see a simple clip-on adapter to it as well. It is seamless in the sense it seems that it can be converted from mount to portable, but the inconvenience of the screws is what I think it kills the "seamless" stance.
There probably aren't too many scenarios when you would have it VESA mounted and then want to immediately whip it off into a portable carry unit. VESA mount is usually a fixed install thing.
But there are already existing quick release VESA mounts like this:
https://www.amazon.com.au/VIVO-Attachment-Removable-Mounting-Stand-VAD2/dp/B01BTAAUV8 (https://www.amazon.com.au/VIVO-Attachment-Removable-Mounting-Stand-VAD2/dp/B01BTAAUV8)
So I can see why they wouldn't have considered integrating something like that and left it to third party solutions.
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But we all know that R&S real strength and focus lies up the chain, where it makes many absolutely extraordinary products...
The same could be said of Tektronix.
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I agree, as I said, there is some innovation... I also would like VESA mounts on all scopes...
I suspect this will start a trend.
But batteries on it are huge module that costs as much as top of the line Micsig.... Whole Micsig is like 1.5 kilos...
Yes, but the 2 series is 500MHz and 2.5GS/s vs 100MHz and 1GS/s. That leads to greater power consumption and the need for bigger heavier packs.
And they are hot swappable which will be important for some customers.
Not really comparable IMO, the Micsig is a proper self contained tablet scope. The Tek is a portable bench scope that matches the exitsing high end line in usability.
It has some advantages but they are, I don't know, not worth the price they are asking?
Just like every other Tek scope really. They are high end player, and you pay high end price.
There are many who will bitch about the price, and I'm one of them, some of the option prices are insane. But I understand that there is a huge market segment that doesn't care, and I've worked in those markets myself.
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I agree, as I said, there is some innovation... I also would like VESA mounts on all scopes...
I suspect this will start a trend.
Makes me wanna drill holes in my R&S :-DD
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And boot time on RTB.... LOVE IT!
The boot time on the 2 series unfortunately sucks arse :(
That is unfortunate consequence of making platform on a fully featured OS so you can have common codebase..
And then you choose cheaper processor and less memory for lower range scopes...
How much is it? Even usually really fast Keysight 3000T boots in 51-52 seconds...
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2fw2g6WFbg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2fw2g6WFbg)
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I agree, as I said, there is some innovation... I also would like VESA mounts on all scopes...
I suspect this will start a trend.
Makes me wanna drill holes in my R&S :-DD
It's not hard for the manufacturer to design a new moulded back cover, just say'n ;D
A maybe a niche third party market opportunity for someone with the chops...
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During your review of using the scope in anger, please mention what it is like to use the touchscreen when it is on the VESA mount.
Please allow several hours usage for the effects to become apparent.
One of the reasons lightpens (remember them?) lost out to mice is that lightpens were murder on the shoulders! Let's make new mistakes, not repeat old mistakes.
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Not really comparable IMO, the Micsig is a proper self contained tablet scope. The Tek is a portable bench scope that matches the exitsing high end line in usability.
That is kind of my point..
Just like every other Tek scope really. They are high end player, and you pay high end price.
There are many who will bitch about the price, and I'm one of them, some of the option prices are insane. But I understand that there is a huge market segment that doesn't care, and I've worked in those markets myself.
I have no problem paying premium price for Tek 6 series. Because it has capabilities that makes it worth it.
And you made a fine point right there: "Paying premium prices for premium PLAYER"...
And I say screw them. I'm NOT paying "Paying premium prices for premium PLAYER". I'm willing to "Pay premium prices for premium PRODUCT". This 2 series is not a premium product... Cue in membrane keyboard from a noname microwave oven...
"Paying premium prices for premium PLAYER" is fanboy domain, and I couldn't care less for it...... I personally don't care, to each it's own, but I call them as I see them ....
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During your review of using the scope in anger, please mention what it is like to use the touchscreen when it is on the VESA mount.
Please allow several hours usage for the effects to become apparent.
One of the reasons lightpens (remember them?) lost out to mice is that lightpens were murder on the shoulders! Let's make new mistakes, not repeat old mistakes.
Probably fine when they are on a VESA mount because they won't be used on benches but will be used on test stations as a remotely driven instrument with visual feedback. Usual pass/fail stuff.
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During your review of using the scope in anger, please mention what it is like to use the touchscreen when it is on the VESA mount.
Please allow several hours usage for the effects to become apparent.
One of the reasons lightpens (remember them?) lost out to mice is that lightpens were murder on the shoulders! Let's make new mistakes, not repeat old mistakes.
You are right on the target. I moved in to a new lab. Made nice shelves to keep T&M equipment off the desk. After, maybe, few weeks scopes are back on the desk and they'll stay there.... And when they were up there, it was mousing all the time....
Good thing is that I made tabletop deep enough so there is space...
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During your review of using the scope in anger, please mention what it is like to use the touchscreen when it is on the VESA mount.
Please allow several hours usage for the effects to become apparent.
One of the reasons lightpens (remember them?) lost out to mice is that lightpens were murder on the shoulders! Let's make new mistakes, not repeat old mistakes.
Probably fine when they are on a VESA mount because they won't be used on benches but will be used on test stations as a remotely driven instrument with visual feedback. Usual pass/fail stuff.
I had considered that, and it is plausible.
Nonetheless, I expect many reviews won't even bother to consider that caveat. Hence it might be a trap for the inexperienced.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO09bc5ozng (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO09bc5ozng)
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During your review of using the scope in anger, please mention what it is like to use the touchscreen when it is on the VESA mount.
Please allow several hours usage for the effects to become apparent.
One of the reasons lightpens (remember them?) lost out to mice is that lightpens were murder on the shoulders! Let's make new mistakes, not repeat old mistakes.
Probably fine when they are on a VESA mount because they won't be used on benches but will be used on test stations as a remotely driven instrument with visual feedback. Usual pass/fail stuff.
Correct. I'm sure this is why they added VNC remote control which they don't have on the 3/4/5/6 series. And a USB wireless mouse just plugs in and works fine.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcxEO3fA_Ls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcxEO3fA_Ls)
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The recess in the metal shielding of the input BNCs is needed for clearance from the 300Vrms input.
This product is designed with low cost as a main objective
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I'm sorry, but to me, shiny membrane keyboards scream kitchen appliance..
I have the exact same impression - being burned by older test gear with membrane buttons in the past (Wavetek, for example), I can't shake the feeling of a hard-to-use UI. On the other hand, some membrane buttons can be well made and I would need to actually use it to have a more concrete opinion.
It can be used without the front panel controls at all, using entirely the touch screen or remote screen control.
Indeed VESA mounts are interesting and I would have loved to see a simple clip-on adapter to it as well. It is seamless in the sense it seems that it can be converted from mount to portable, but the inconvenience of the screws is what I think it kills the "seamless" stance.
There probably aren't too many scenarios when you would have it VESA mounted and then want to immediately whip it off into a portable carry unit. VESA mount is usually a fixed install thing.
But there are already existing quick release VESA mounts like this:
https://www.amazon.com.au/VIVO-Attachment-Removable-Mounting-Stand-VAD2/dp/B01BTAAUV8 (https://www.amazon.com.au/VIVO-Attachment-Removable-Mounting-Stand-VAD2/dp/B01BTAAUV8)
So I can see why they wouldn't have considered integrating something like that and left it to third party solutions.
I hadn't thought of the third party adapters for the mounts. Indeed this is probably a financially sound decision.
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TSP #208 - Tektronix 2-Series 4-Channel 2.5GS/s 500MHz MSO Review, Teardown & Experiments
The Signal Path
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIrn9DuOoiM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIrn9DuOoiM)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO09bc5ozng (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO09bc5ozng)
nobody is slamming this scope yet for not implementing zoom out properly? (@17:14) can't zoom out or some other bollocks....
I admit i am less enthusiastic about the membrane keys and i see that they offer a package that covers for normal wear and tear ::)
because replacing that on my own would really be a pain
the single PCB construction is an impressive feat but that hits the final nail on the isolated channel option (i was holding hope)..
i was told there would be a replacement to the TPS soon-ish but apparently that's not going to happen :(
I still think the form factor is a win and i am sure others will come out with their own version of this. will probably change the TPS with the siglent version of this scope, if and when it will come out
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Personally I would not buy this scope. To me a bench scope must have an internal PSU and not having 50Ohm termination among others makes it a low end model which I'm not interested in.
And in a portable scope I expect some internal batteries, so I would choose others, from Rohde or Micsig.
Enough for the marketing campaign
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I admit i am less enthusiastic about the membrane keys and i see that they offer a package that covers for normal wear and tear ::)
It looks like a five minute job to replace them.
(assuming they sell them...)
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Well after watching everything I can conclude it’s ugly as hell, too expensive and not really that innovative. But that’s about the status quo for scopes. So it’s fine :-//
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nobody is slamming this scope yet for not implementing zoom out properly? (@17:14) can't zoom out or some other bollocks....
It is a Tektronix so it can zoom out; you don't need to ask whether it can. Standard Tektronix feature! If you look closely, you'll see that it is in auto memory depth mode in the video.
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Weird to see National Semi branded chips ... that logo went defunct when TI bought them. old stock ? it is a prototype ... could be.
The pinch to zoom seems to react pretty slow. is it the UI or the actual redraw that is slow ...
1280x800 resolution is a bit weak these days. They could have used a better display. The price difference is not that high. If you look what tablet displays do in terms of resolution.
But the thing to kick it in the can is the membrane keyboard. That is a colossal fail. They could have kept the back foil with the embedded leds and put a silicone key mat on top. Tactile feedback is a must. Did i click it ? is it in run or stop ? let me click it again .. -aaaargh- what's next ? rotary encoders without detents ? so if you want to change the attenuator or timebase you have to guess when it will switch ? And membranes eventually all crack, split and peel. Especially if they are the dimpled type. no to membranes !
It's a nice machine but that membrane keypad is unforgivable.
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To anyone complaining about the membrane keypad: you are not going to use it. It is stupid to put knobs & buttons on a touchscreen based instrument which has a proper touchscreen interface. The knobs & buttons are redundant relics from a past.
And yes, silicone keypads do get dirty. If you have ever cleaned a piece of test equipment thouroughly you know how much dirt you encounter on such keypads. Usually enough to make a 10x10cm piece of white cloth turn dark grey.
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To anyone complaining about the membrane keypad: you are not going to use it. It is stupid to put knobs & buttons on a touchscreen based instrument which has a proper touchscreen interface. The knobs & buttons are redundant relics from a past.
And yet, silicone keypads do get dirty. If you have ever cleaned a piece of test equipment thouroughly you know how much dirt you encounter on such keypads. Usually enough to make a 10x10cm piece of white cloth turn dark grey.
Then why not ditch the rotary encoders too ? simply pinch to zoom.
There needs to be a few hard buttons. run/stop , single , since they only have one encoder for vertical you need buttons for channel select. The amount of arm flapping needed to first touch something on the screen , then go to the encoder, then back to screen ... if that thing is suspended from the vesa mount you will get muscle cramps very quickly.
I don't know if a touchscreen on a scope is a good idea. Touchscreens work on a tablet because it lays horizontally. Vertical touchscreens are very tiring for your arm. And you have greasy finger streaks all over that display. -meh- Scopes sit on a bench at arms length. very difficult to precision control a floating touch screen at arms length. I can see this working for field service personnel holding it in hand. but as a bench instrument ? no.
i had a Lecroy and an Agilent with touch screens. i HATED those touch screens (except for zoom in/out). always used the mouse or the hard controls. but changing gain or timebase ? annoying as hell. and then trying to enter something on a virtual keyboard is even more annoying. it works if a touchscreen lays down, like a tablet, or if you are handholding it . but not on a vertical screen.
They seem to have the button balance right. only the really important stuff has a button. They should at least provide haptic feedback so you know you clicked something. having to stare at the screen to see if it changes when you click is annoying. find button with eyes, position hand, move eyes to screen , now click , . bad UI design. a proper UI minimizes the number of eye repositions and hand repositions.
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To anyone complaining about the membrane keypad: you are not going to use it. It is stupid to put knobs & buttons on a touchscreen based instrument which has a proper touchscreen interface. The knobs & buttons are redundant relics from a past.
And yet, silicone keypads do get dirty. If you have ever cleaned a piece of test equipment thouroughly you know how much dirt you encounter on such keypads. Usually enough to make a 10x10cm piece of white cloth turn dark grey.
Then why not ditch the rotary encoders too ? simply pinch to zoom.
Look at MicSig. Doesn't need those encoders.
i had a Lecroy and an Agilent with touch screens. i HATED those touch screens (except for zoom in/out)
Because those user interfaces aren't made for touch screens. I have some hands-on experience with the oscilloscopes you are likely referring to and on those a mouse works better indeed. But try one of the modern R&S scopes (RTB / RTM) for example.
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I loathe touchscreens, for me a touchscreen would definitely be a niche extra for certain purposes, I would not buy an instrument that did not have physical knobs and buttons, tactile feedback is a must for me and touchscreens do not provide that. They also get covered in finger smudges which I can't stand.
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During the event I asked them multiple times about the waveform update rate and they didn't answer that question. When watching Dave's first impression video, I found out why, the Tek person talking to Dave in that video said it was something like 5k waveforms per second, then followed with something like "it's not a fast scope" :palm:
for 2k$ :o their competition being the RTB2000, which can do 300k, why is Tektronix so far behind in this regard? how fast do their 3 and up series update?
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Looks decent to me overall, shame there is no auto probe select or 50 ohm, but it is a lower end scope. The membrane buttons are a massive turn off though and I'd say a deal breaker.
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I watched Shahriar's video, and my first thought was, here is a TDS210 for the 2020's. It's even fanless! Priced like a Tek, of course, but then it is a Tek. Not a scope I have a use for personally, but I think they will probably sell a lot of them.
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Look at MicSig. Doesn't need those encoders.
well , the newest micsig ADDED the encoders because all the users were asking for it !
https://www.micsig.com/product/ (https://www.micsig.com/product/)
https://www.micsig.com/product2/ (https://www.micsig.com/product2/)
even their latest true tablet has a tactic ui
https://www.micsig.com/product5/ (https://www.micsig.com/product5/)
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I want to know how long before that white plastic turns yellow.
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I watched Shahriar's video, and my first thought was, here is a TDS210 for the 2020's. It's even fanless! Priced like a Tek, of course, but then it is a Tek. Not a scope I have a use for personally, but I think they will probably sell a lot of them.
Seems like the sort of thing they might sell a lot of to universities. They're compact, relatively inexpensive, and a reasonable way to get a bunch of budding engineers familiar with the Tek user interface.
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I watched Shahriar's video, and my first thought was, here is a TDS210 for the 2020's. It's even fanless! Priced like a Tek, of course, but then it is a Tek. Not a scope I have a use for personally, but I think they will probably sell a lot of them.
Seems like the sort of thing they might sell a lot of to universities. They're compact, relatively inexpensive, and a reasonable way to get a bunch of budding engineers familiar with the Tek user interface.
student engineers ? don't give them anything over 200$ .. those hantek things will do nicely.
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I watched Shahriar's video, and my first thought was, here is a TDS210 for the 2020's. It's even fanless! Priced like a Tek, of course, but then it is a Tek. Not a scope I have a use for personally, but I think they will probably sell a lot of them.
Seems like the sort of thing they might sell a lot of to universities. They're compact, relatively inexpensive, and a reasonable way to get a bunch of budding engineers familiar with the Tek user interface.
student engineers ? don't give them anything over 200$ .. those hantek things will do nicely.
My uni had Tek scopes for the physics practicals, so I'd imagine they'd consider the 2 series at least. It's been a good decade though, so who knows how it is now.
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I want to know how long before that white plastic turns yellow.
hey, you can retrobrite your 1 year old Tek... for that 'old school look"
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I want to know how long before that white plastic turns yellow.
Warranty period plus a few weeks, of course.
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Weird to see National Semi branded chips ... that logo went defunct when TI bought them. old stock ? it is a prototype ... could be.
TI does not ditch logos that easily, especially on sime specialized parts - you can still get new parts with the Burr Brown logo these days...
The pinch to zoom seems to react pretty slow. is it the UI or the actual redraw that is slow ...
1280x800 resolution is a bit weak these days. They could have used a better display. The price difference is not that high. If you look what tablet displays do in terms of resolution.
To increase the screen you need to increase the raw computing power of the graphics adapter, especially when there are layers upon layers of OSes and frameworks under it (we talked about this either earlier on this thread or in another one). That can explain why the pinch zoom is on the slow side as well.
To anyone complaining about the membrane keypad: you are not going to use it. It is stupid to put knobs & buttons on a touchscreen based instrument which has a proper touchscreen interface. The knobs & buttons are redundant relics from a past.
The rotary encoder brings a level of selection accuracy versus screen realstate that is unparalleled by a touch interface and its large buttons hiding the signal or other information behind. Side menus and their various side buttons are better for the smaller screens these types of equipment feature - I am spoiled by my Rigol and its buttons on both sides of the screen.
I watched Shahriar's video, and my first thought was, here is a TDS210 for the 2020's. It's even fanless! Priced like a Tek, of course, but then it is a Tek. Not a scope I have a use for personally, but I think they will probably sell a lot of them.
Seems like the sort of thing they might sell a lot of to universities. They're compact, relatively inexpensive, and a reasonable way to get a bunch of budding engineers familiar with the Tek user interface.
student engineers ? don't give them anything over 200$ .. those hantek things will do nicely.
My uni had Tek scopes for the physics practicals, so I'd imagine they'd consider the 2 series at least. It's been a good decade though, so who knows how it is now.
To be fair, a decade ago Rigol was still becoming a household name with their popular DS1052E - nowadays any lab that does not belong to the first world countries and/or has no interest from such manufacturers will fall back to the chinese, even the bottom of the barrel Fnirsi.
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It's even fanless!
According to Dave's teardown video, it has two small fans.
And small fans tends to be noisier than larger fans.
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Also small fans fuck up quicker in lab environments. Have had to ungunk a number of them over the years.
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rotary encoders without detents ? so if you want to change the attenuator or timebase you have to guess when it will switch ?
The Horz and Vert knobs DO have detents, the others don't.
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It's even fanless!
According to Dave's teardown video, it has two small fans.
And small fans tends to be noisier than larger fans.
You onl yhear the fan on power-up, after that it's almost completely silent, I have to put my ear on it to actually hear they are spinning. On par with the little Hameg that I thought didn't have a fan but did.
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During the event I asked them multiple times about the waveform update rate and they didn't answer that question. When watching Dave's first impression video, I found out why, the Tek person talking to Dave in that video said it was something like 5k waveforms per second, then followed with something like "it's not a fast scope" :palm:
for 2k$ :o their competition being the RTB2000, which can do 300k, why is Tektronix so far behind in this regard? how fast do their 3 and up series update?
I'll be doing that measurement today hopefully. I don't know how fast the 3 series is, if anyone does please let me know, as this is a fundamentally different architecture than the 3 and up series.
It's quite responsive to use in general though.
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Just seen this today.
MSO242-BW-500 4 Analog Channels, 2.5GS/s sample rate, 10Mpts record length 500MHz Bandwidth (It's unclear if Logic analyzer is included or not) €9760
MSOX3054T MSO / MDO Oscilloscope, InfiniiVision 3000T X, 4+16 Channel, 500 MHz, 5 GSPS, 4 Mpts, 700 ps € 13160
Seems to be competitively priced. Though it comes with 1 year warranty :wtf:
A noticable/sizable jump in price between those two, the comparison in Keysight 3000 would probably be their recently released DSOX3054G ($14,000 vs comparable tek with licenses and probes $15,000). Closer would be Lecroy T3DSO3000 (Siglent) or 3000z. Like the Tek 2, the Lecroy 3000z is their lowest/cheapest model with their "full" UI, but retains active probe interface. A big step up over the Tek 2 in scope features/performance/options. Very few of these scope segments/tiers directly compare/overlap.
The vesa mount is a good idea, I can totally see this wall mounted, taking zero space from the bench. Did anyone see a picture of the power brick?
Its a nice thing to have, but the power and network/usb stick out the sides for bench use (no wifi?) making it more like a hack than a well designed addition. Direct into the plastic case? no internal frame might be a bit sloppy (not that monitor arms are known for their stiffness!).
This Tek is just that. More form than substance.
And if this scope is good enough for your work, than a Micsig that costs 5-6x less is also good enough. And for the difference in money you buy something else you need. A "any moment to be released" new Siglent SDS2000X HD will be in price range (actually much cheaper as you go up the range) , and has 12Bit resolution, for instance..
As you say this looks to be targeting/matching the R&S RTB2000 pricing with almost perfect overlap on channels and bandwidth, except forgetting that had 10bit ADCs as its headline/banner/key/special feature. Existing Siglent model are very competitive alternative already, anything newer/improved from them will probably be compelling.
The Tek 2 seems to be middling/behind on actual scope functions/specifications/performance. Disappointing for a brand new product, usually new models (from any brand) have something to push ahead in at least one key specification. Instead its only the periphery characteristics that makes the Tek 2 unique:
Hot-swappable batteries
VESA mount
Tek name/UI
Given the old Tek 3000 battery version was kept around a long time, there must be a big enough market in battery scopes.
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This Tek is just that. More form than substance.
And if this scope is good enough for your work, than a Micsig that costs 5-6x less is also good enough. And for the difference in money you buy something else you need. A "any moment to be released" new Siglent SDS2000X HD will be in price range (actually much cheaper as you go up the range) , and has 12Bit resolution, for instance..
As you say this looks to be targeting/matching the R&S RTB2000 pricing with almost perfect overlap on channels and bandwidth, except forgetting that had 10bit ADCs as its headline/banner/key/special feature. Existing Siglent model are very competitive alternative already, anything newer/improved from them will probably be compelling.
The Tek 2 seems to be middling/behind on actual scope functions/specifications/performance. Disappointing for a brand new product, usually new models (from any brand) have something to push ahead in at least one key specification. Instead its only the periphery characteristics that makes the Tek 2 unique:
Hot-swappable batteries
VESA mount
Tek name/UI
Given the old Tek 3000 battery version was kept around a long time, there must be a big enough market in battery scopes.
Tek aren't releasing this to compete directly with models from others brands, that marketing is just incidental.
What they have done is complete the roadmap they had for the new next gen series of scopes. The 2 series was inevitable and actually discussed on this forum coincidently back when they started development in 2019.
Tek have a huge existing customer base, so the goal wouldn't have been to win huge numbers of new customers from competing models. For example, I doubt they spend a single minute sitting around brainstorming how they could kill the R&S RTB2000.
So when you decide to start on the 2 series, what do you do? You go to your existing key high value customers and ask them what they want and you try and filter those reponses and see if there's something new that you can come up with to offer them. They decided to focus on the form factor, the VESA mount, and the hot swappable batteries. The rest just came out in the wash and would have been a combination of price and not doing harm to the higher end 3+ series, whilst offering the same UI experience.
And you can bet that thir isn't the end of this type of form factor either, I'd expect to see other typses of gear get the same slim bench/portable treatment if this one does well.
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anyone know pricing on SW maintenance with the new Tek MSO 2? I know it's required yearly, but I haven't seen a price.
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Not really a scope for me, I suspect the target market is a company/University that needs to buy 200 low end but solid devices and don’t want to take risks with their investment on an “unknown” brand like Rigol. They probably also want a supplier they can ring up and yell at. It does seem like a neat device though, I wouldn’t be mad if someone asked me to use one.
I am definitely looking forward to the day where mice and ethernet/VNC are standard on all oscilloscopes though.
PS: happy Rigol user here.
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anyone know pricing on SW maintenance with the new Tek MSO 2? I know it's required yearly, but I haven't seen a price.
I have been told they have dropped the software maintenance option, they will no longer charge for firmware updates for the life of the instrument. They said they removed this from the datasheet.
They listened to the complaints here and acted :-+
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This Tek is just that. More form than substance.
And if this scope is good enough for your work, than a Micsig that costs 5-6x less is also good enough. And for the difference in money you buy something else you need. A "any moment to be released" new Siglent SDS2000X HD will be in price range (actually much cheaper as you go up the range) , and has 12Bit resolution, for instance..
As you say this looks to be targeting/matching the R&S RTB2000 pricing with almost perfect overlap on channels and bandwidth, except forgetting that had 10bit ADCs as its headline/banner/key/special feature. Existing Siglent model are very competitive alternative already, anything newer/improved from them will probably be compelling.
The Tek 2 seems to be middling/behind on actual scope functions/specifications/performance. Disappointing for a brand new product, usually new models (from any brand) have something to push ahead in at least one key specification. Instead its only the periphery characteristics that makes the Tek 2 unique:
Hot-swappable batteries
VESA mount
Tek name/UI
Given the old Tek 3000 battery version was kept around a long time, there must be a big enough market in battery scopes.
Tek aren't releasing this to compete directly with models from others brands, that marketing is just incidental.
What they have done is complete the roadmap they had for the new next gen series of scopes. The 2 series was inevitable and actually discussed on this forum coincidently back when they started development in 2019.
Tek have a huge existing customer base, so the goal wouldn't have been to win huge numbers of new customers from competing models. For example, I doubt they spend a single minute sitting around brainstorming how they could kill the R&S RTB2000.
So when you decide to start on the 2 series, what do you do? You go to your existing key high value customers and ask them what they want and you try and filter those reponses and see if there's something new that you can come up with to offer them. They decided to focus on the form factor, the VESA mount, and the hot swappable batteries. The rest just came out in the wash and would have been a combination of price and not doing harm to the higher end 3+ series, whilst offering the same UI experience.
And you can bet that thir isn't the end of this type of form factor either, I'd expect to see other typses of gear get the same slim bench/portable treatment if this one does well.
A company not even trying to compete in the market isnt going to last.
Tek got there first with compact low cost bench scopes (LCD screens), but this new form factor doesnt seem to have any wide appeal over "lunchbox" shapes/sizes already around. Sure, someone carrying it around as a portable will like it being 60% of the size and weight compared to the TDS3000, but that is pretending like there arent other portable or tablet scopes available. Blinkered Tek buyers is a shrinking market. Its completely valid to compare this to other realistic compeitors rather than letting you simultaneously push misleading comparisons while saying:
Tek aren't releasing this to compete directly with models from others brands, that marketing is just incidental.
"incidental" marketing :-DD
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During the event I asked them multiple times about the waveform update rate and they didn't answer that question. When watching Dave's first impression video, I found out why, the Tek person talking to Dave in that video said it was something like 5k waveforms per second, then followed with something like "it's not a fast scope" :palm:
for 2k$ :o their competition being the RTB2000, which can do 300k, why is Tektronix so far behind in this regard? how fast do their 3 and up series update?
I'll be doing that measurement today hopefully. I don't know how fast the 3 series is, if anyone does please let me know, as this is a fundamentally different architecture than the 3 and up series.
It's quite responsive to use in general though.
I went to see in the datasheets for the 3 and up series, they are all above 280k waveforms per second. That the 2 series can't even do 2% of the wfm/s of the 3 series is odd and disappointing. At uni we have some Tek analog ones, and when i first started to read about oscilloscopes and test equipment a few years ago, being exposed to Tek at uni and seeing the price and looks of their recent DSOs had led me to think they were the best out there. Now being more informed I don't think I would consider Tek for personal use, as nice as they may look!
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Anyone else noticed if you connect the power supply and Ethernet or USB cables, the device footprint increases x1.5 on the bench with the cables sticking out to the sides. Poor design choice for placement of periferal and PS connectors.
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Blinkered Tek buyers is a shrinking market. Its completely valid to compare this to other realistic compeitors rather than letting you simultaneously push misleading comparisons while saying:
I'm not saying it's not valid to compare them, especially given that Tek do on their own website with the Keysight 2000 and R&S RTB2000.
But you can't seriously think that they came up with the 2 Series to compete directly head to head with those models. That's just silly, they are very different product focusses.
Tek marketing put together the comparison because that's what marketing does, and because some percentage of the market expect to see such a comparison. But that doesn't mean it was the focus of the design effort, because it clearly wasn't.
Please, tell me how you go into a product design effort to compete directly against the RTB2000 or Keysight 2000 and come out with a product that is entirely different in form factor and usability, doesn't have 10bit to match the R&S, and is an order of magnitude less update rate than the Keysight 2000X?
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Blinkered Tek buyers is a shrinking market. Its completely valid to compare this to other realistic compeitors rather than letting you simultaneously push misleading comparisons while saying:Tek aren't releasing this to compete directly with models from others brands, that marketing is just incidental.
I'm not saying it's not valid to compare them, especially given that Tek do on their own website with the Keysight 2000 and R&S RTB2000.
But you can't seriously think that they came up with the 2 Series to compete directly head to head with those models. That's just silly, they are very different product focusses.
Tek marketing put together the comparison because that's what marketing does, and because some percentage of the market expect to see such a comparison. But that doesn't mean it was the focus of the design effort, because it clearly wasn't.
Please, tell me how you go into a product design effort to compete directly against the RTB2000 or Keysight 2000 and come out with a product that is entirely different in form factor and usability, doesn't have 10bit to match the R&S, and is an order of magnitude less update rate than the Keysight 2000X?
Tek marketing choose to compare it, fine, their call. But you keep bringing up the comparison to a 12 year old scope (again as some obnoxious "challenge" here) so I'll keep pointing out that its off the mark and clutching at straws.
The pricing and features of the Tek 2 series is a very very close alignment to the R&S RTB2000, suspiciously so when so much of the value in these scopes is now software that has almost zero marginal cost. But that is lagging behind competitive specifications of all sorts of other scopes in the same pricing. Yet you keep coming back with a cherry picked flattering "comparison". Like I said, who exactly would consider a Keysight 2000 series as an alternative? Only marketing noodles! and apparently you. Are you stupid? probably not, so there must be some other motivation.
Going to keep trying the exact same behavior of willfully ignoring competitors? You'll keep getting called out as a marketing puppet.
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I measured the update rate for a 1MHz input.
18.8k/sec faster than 40ns/div, that's as good as it gets.
7.5K/sec to 100ns/div
3.8k/sec at 400ns/div
762/sec as the timebase slows down
380/sec
190/sec
dropping to 12/sec below 10us/div
And it's very bursty, up too a few dozen acquisitions before a gap anywhere from 50ms to 100's of ms. And it gets worse if you turn on various stuff.
Completely stops if you move waveforms or triger level around.
So yeah, it's disappointingly poor for a supposedly new architecture (Lexington it's called) that's been 15 years or so since the last one.
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Tek marketing choose to compare it, fine, their call. But you keep bringing up the comparison to a 12 year old scope (again as some obnoxious "challenge" here) so I'll keep pointing out that its off the mark and clutching at straws.
:palm: Show me where I have ever compared this to the Keysight 2000.
I have specifically said I personally wouldn't compare it to either of these scopes like Tek did. But I said I have no problem if anyone wants to because that's the way they see it.
The pricing and features of the Tek 2 series is a very very close alignment to the R&S RTB2000, suspiciously so when so much of the value in these scopes is now software that has almost zero marginal cost. But that is lagging behind competitive specifications of all sorts of other scopes in the same pricing. Yet you keep coming back with a cherry picked flattering "comparison".
I am NOT the one making such comparisons! Quite the opposite in fact.
Like I said, who exactly would consider a Keysight 2000 series as an alternative? Only marketing noodles! and apparently you. Are you stupid? probably not, so there must be some other motivation.
Going to keep trying the exact same behavior of willfully ignoring competitors? You'll keep getting called out as a marketing puppet.
You are either willfully ignorant, or a deliberate troll who likes attacking me. Given your previous history in this regard, it's obvious.
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dropping to 12/sec below 10us/div
And it's very bursty, up too a few dozen acquisitions before a gap anywhere from 50ms to 100's of ms. And it gets worse if you turn on various stuff.
Completely stops if you move waveforms or triger level around.
So yeah, it's disappointingly poor for a supposedly new architecture (Lexington it's called) that's been 15 years or so since the last one.
What are the memory settings when this is happening?
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Tek marketing choose to compare it, fine, their call. But you keep bringing up the comparison to a 12 year old scope (again as some obnoxious "challenge" here) so I'll keep pointing out that its off the mark and clutching at straws.
:palm: Show me where I have ever compared this to the Keysight 2000.
I have specifically said I personally wouldn't compare it to either of these scopes like Tek did. But I said I have no problem if anyone wants to because that's the way they see it.
The pricing and features of the Tek 2 series is a very very close alignment to the R&S RTB2000, suspiciously so when so much of the value in these scopes is now software that has almost zero marginal cost. But that is lagging behind competitive specifications of all sorts of other scopes in the same pricing. Yet you keep coming back with a cherry picked flattering "comparison".
I am NOT the one making such comparisons! Quite the opposite in fact.
Like I said, who exactly would consider a Keysight 2000 series as an alternative? Only marketing noodles! and apparently you. Are you stupid? probably not, so there must be some other motivation.
Going to keep trying the exact same behavior of willfully ignoring competitors? You'll keep getting called out as a marketing puppet.
You are either willfully ignorant, or a deliberate troll who likes attacking me. Given your previous history in this regard, it's obvious.
Dave, is this the impression you really wanna give to readers:
I had to un-notify myself from that New Tek thread. I didn't want to get any on me. ::)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/921/jjLoZa.png) (https://imageshack.com/i/pljjLoZap)
Now we each see this new Tek from where we sit and we each can find criticism of any new instrument to the market whether the readership likes it or not yet with the advances the east has made in the last few years and the A brands still wanting to market at historical pricing and not offer equipment with a significant edge on those from the east seems head in the sand mentality.
Although with the now low cost of eastern scopes in this class and as you have identified Tek's point of difference is physical design that caters well for valid corner use cases however will those be in enough numbers to ensure marketplace demand. :-//
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dropping to 12/sec below 10us/div
And it's very bursty, up too a few dozen acquisitions before a gap anywhere from 50ms to 100's of ms. And it gets worse if you turn on various stuff.
Completely stops if you move waveforms or triger level around.
So yeah, it's disappointingly poor for a supposedly new architecture (Lexington it's called) that's been 15 years or so since the last one.
What are the memory settings when this is happening?
Automatic. Anywhere from hundreds of points to 250k.
When I manually force it to 1000pts at the slower timebases then I get the maximum 18k/sec update.
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Dave, is this the impression you really wanna give to readers:
I had to un-notify myself from that New Tek thread. I didn't want to get any on me. ::)
If someone is deliberately misrepresenting my position to attack me then I will defend myself.
Now we each see this new Tek from where we sit and we each can find criticism of any new instrument to the market whether the readership likes it or not yet with the advances the east has made in the last few years and the A brands still wanting to market at historical pricing and not offer equipment with a significant edge on those from the east seems head in the sand mentality.
Although with the now low cost of eastern scopes in this class and as you have identified Tek's point of difference is physical design that caters well for valid corner use cases however will those be in enough numbers to ensure marketplace demand. :-//
My guess is that it will sell well for Tek, just like I presume the 3,4,5 and 6 series have sold well enough for them to keep bringing out new model after new model.
Not because it competes well in bang-per buck against whatever it is you want to compare the thing too, but because it's Tek and people still like to buy Tek. And I think the battery and form factor and UI offers enough novelty to get quite a few people interested.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think this new Tek 2 misses the mark on pricing, and some of the options are outrageous to point of taking the piss. And I would not buy one with my own money. But I'm not the target market for this scope.
As I have also said though, if you compare the base model pricing it seems on par with Keysight and R&S offerings. Again, NOT defending it, and NOT making the comparison myself, just pointing out a fact.
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Now we each see this new Tek from where we sit and we each can find criticism of any new instrument to the market whether the readership likes it or not yet with the advances the east has made in the last few years and the A brands still wanting to market at historical pricing and not offer equipment with a significant edge on those from the east seems head in the sand mentality.
People are still paying Fluke prices in large numbers because they're "made in the USA", so... :-//
Although with the now low cost of eastern scopes in this class and as you have identified Tek's point of difference is physical design that caters well for valid corner use cases however will those be in enough numbers to ensure marketplace demand. :-//
I expect this will sell large numbers based on looks alone.
(OK, looks combined with the "Tek" badge)
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I’m not sure people really understand the market.
One major reason people will buy this is because of the long product lifecycle guarantee generally of Tek stuff. You can buy the same scope for literally years. That means no techs having to retrain and no problems with reintegrating new kit into test rigs. If you’re at the start of a decade long project this is a good time to reintegrate new hardware.
The actual purchase price really doesn’t matter because anyone buying these other than the small business and one man outfits just pushes the cost up to the client.
The one man and small lab outfits don’t have that option so get a little more antsy about capital expenditure. Which is where all the debate is.
I did see and interesting observation the other day. When Apple do their yearly new hardware presentation their studio “lab” had a Tek in it last year. This year it’s a Rigol. They are props but I’m wondering why Tek didn’t slide one of their scopes in for product placement…
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Now we each see this new Tek from where we sit and we each can find criticism of any new instrument to the market whether the readership likes it or not yet with the advances the east has made in the last few years and the A brands still wanting to market at historical pricing and not offer equipment with a significant edge on those from the east seems head in the sand mentality.
Although with the now low cost of eastern scopes in this class and as you have identified Tek's point of difference is physical design that caters well for valid corner use cases however will those be in enough numbers to ensure marketplace demand. :-//
It would be interesting to watch them compete on pricing/features since these low cost scopes are made in China (Tek 3 series and up are partially? US assembled) so that's not the sticking point. All-most all functionality in a single cheap+large SOC/ZYNQ is a change from the 4/5/6 series, which should be faster than the competitive platforms (and offer more memory) but Tek somehow cripples/dumbs it down.
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I did see and interesting observation the other day. When Apple do their yearly new hardware presentation their studio “lab” had a Tek in it last year. This year it’s a Rigol.
In 2020 it was FNIRSI (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001309423372.html):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AwdkGKmZ0I&t=943s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AwdkGKmZ0I&t=943s)
You can bet that next year it will be these Teks.
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One major reason people will buy this is because of the long product lifecycle guarantee generally of Tek stuff.
The guarantee that if anything breaks the repair will costs as much as a new equipment.
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One major reason people will buy this is because of the long product lifecycle guarantee generally of Tek stuff.
The guarantee that if anything breaks the repair will costs as much as a new equipment.
I'm not sure you understand what "lifecycle" is.
Edit: And if anything breaks? It doesn't cost you anything - that's what the maintenance contract is for.
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Look at MicSig. Doesn't need those encoders.
well , the newest micsig ADDED the encoders because all the users were asking for it !
Nah, the newest Micsig took them off again:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-new-oscilloscopes-on-website/?action=dlattach;attach=1506004;image)
Looks like they even took off the five side-panel buttons, too. They've been integrated into the main screen (four at top-right, one at bottom-left).
I'm not sure it's a good idea. I definitely use the buttons and encoders on my Micsig and I think it's better because of them.
(not all the buttons...I think there's a few I never use, eg. channel menu but there's others I use a lot, eg. the one to bring up the measurements menu and the one for the trigger menu. There's room for shortcuts to those on the bottom of that 13" screen...)
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One major reason people will buy this is because of the long product lifecycle guarantee generally of Tek stuff.
The guarantee that if anything breaks the repair will costs as much as a new equipment.
Nah. Having worked in the test gear department of a large corporation you just get another one out of the stores when the first one breaks and send the old one back and sit there on the phone doing RMAs for 4 hours a day on the large all inclusive service contract you have :-DD
If you have a Siglent or Rigol you sell it on eBay as “spares repair” and buy another one because they are so cheap that the time isn’t worth the money. Unless it’s in the limited 1y warranty and then you try it on with the distributor.
YMMV but that’s how most businesses work.
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I measured the update rate for a 1MHz input.
18.8k/sec faster than 40ns/div, that's as good as it gets.
7.5K/sec to 100ns/div
3.8k/sec at 400ns/div
762/sec as the timebase slows down
380/sec
190/sec
dropping to 12/sec below 10us/div
And it's very bursty, up too a few dozen acquisitions before a gap anywhere from 50ms to 100's of ms. And it gets worse if you turn on various stuff.
Completely stops if you move waveforms or triger level around.
How do you observe and measure the update rate and gaps?
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FWIW I think this is actually competing with the Keysight 2000 series, in the same way that the 2000 series once competed with the Tek TDS. There are university labs absolutely full of Keysight 2000 series scopes, but they aren't going anywhere (despite their age) while the competitor scopes don't really bring any new value to the table. Honestly, for someone teaching people how to measure blips with an oscilloscope, this product doesn't really offer more than the 2000 series does, and I think it would be a waste of money to change a whole lab over. Having a built in ~10MHz AWG and 4 channels hasn't been innovative for at least a decade (maybe more). And I'm not seeing any free decoders or a radically reduced cost which I think really would make a difference. Or any other innovative ideas like, for example, real on-board scripting to write your own decoders/measurements/tests.
If you are fitting out a brand new lab though with no existing investment, then the tradeoffs become different, and this is probably what they are marketing towards.
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I just typed "tek" into google and it suggested "tektronix 2-series"
Tek is trending on google today!
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Now we each see this new Tek from where we sit and we each can find criticism of any new instrument to the market whether the readership likes it or not yet with the advances the east has made in the last few years and the A brands still wanting to market at historical pricing and not offer equipment with a significant edge on those from the east seems head in the sand mentality.
People are still paying Fluke prices in large numbers because they're "made in the USA", so... :-//
And they want equipment that just works... Obviously the firmware isn't finished yet but I think this oscilloscope is worth investigating further for me to see if it is something I could suggest to customers if they are looking for test equipment.
IIRC Tek isn't big on promotional offers so pricing could be a problem though.
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Micsig finally puts it up on their site :-DD: https://www.micsig.com/Roadmap/ (https://www.micsig.com/Roadmap/)
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Micsig finally puts it up on their site :-DD: https://www.micsig.com/Roadmap/ (https://www.micsig.com/Roadmap/)
Coincidence? ::)
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IIRC Tek isn't big on promotional offers so pricing could be a problem though.
"Price" has never been a problem for Apple. It's all about looks. :P
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Now we each see this new Tek from where we sit and we each can find criticism of any new instrument to the market whether the readership likes it or not yet with the advances the east has made in the last few years and the A brands still wanting to market at historical pricing and not offer equipment with a significant edge on those from the east seems head in the sand mentality.
Although with the now low cost of eastern scopes in this class and as you have identified Tek's point of difference is physical design that caters well for valid corner use cases however will those be in enough numbers to ensure marketplace demand. :-//
It would be interesting to watch them compete on pricing/features since these low cost scopes are made in China (Tek 3 series and up are partially? US assembled) so that's not the sticking point. All-most all functionality in a single cheap+large SOC/ZYNQ is a change from the 4/5/6 series, which should be faster than the competitive platforms (and offer more memory) but Tek somehow cripples/dumbs it down.
Yeah but at least Tek did some half smart stuff by using 3GSa/s ADC's and throttling them back to 2.5GSa/s so to get away with minimal cooling and keep the thing quiet.
With most 2000 class scopes 2GSa/s Tek has an edge on them in sampling rate however Dave's latest findings of WFMS and the Teks quite limited memory depth and needing to give good battery life required Tek to clock it down some to meet the design brief.
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Just seen this today.
MSO242-BW-500 4 Analog Channels, 2.5GS/s sample rate, 10Mpts record length 500MHz Bandwidth (It's unclear if Logic analyzer is included or not) €9760
MSOX3054T MSO / MDO Oscilloscope, InfiniiVision 3000T X, 4+16 Channel, 500 MHz, 5 GSPS, 4 Mpts, 700 ps € 13160
Seems to be competitively priced. Though it comes with 1 year warranty :wtf:
A noticable/sizable jump in price between those two, the comparison in Keysight 3000 would probably be their recently released DSOX3054G ($14,000 vs comparable tek with licenses and probes $15,000). Closer would be Lecroy T3DSO3000 (Siglent) or 3000z. Like the Tek 2, the Lecroy 3000z is their lowest/cheapest model with their "full" UI, but retains active probe interface. A big step up over the Tek 2 in scope features/performance/options. Very few of these scope segments/tiers directly compare/overlap.
I compare it to the MSOX3054 because that's my benchmark for a scope with features that I most engineers need. I also don't consider buying an Asian brand for work, because nobody got fired for buying IBM.
Are you saying that would make more sense to compare it to the 2000 series Keysight?
Also, just seen this on their product page:
Built-in 16 MSO channels for testing digital circuits*
*Available with future software releases.
Feels like a beta release to me, that management forced out of the door before it was ready.
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I just typed "tek" into google and it suggested "tektronix 2-series"
Tek is trending on google today!
I bet that is your profile...
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Yeah but at least Tek did some half smart stuff by using 3GSa/s ADC's and throttling them back to 2.5GSa/s so to get away with minimal cooling and keep the thing quiet.
There's no evidence they did that as a deliberate design decision. Maybe they just got a good price on those parts or there wasn't a suitable 2.5GSa/s part available in the middle of a worldwide chip shortage.
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Also, just seen this on their product page:
Built-in 16 MSO channels for testing digital circuits*
*Available with future software releases.
Feels like a beta release to me, that management forced out of the door before it was ready.
Par for the course in software development. At least they're being honest and not selling you a half-working version today.
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I measured the update rate for a 1MHz input.
18.8k/sec faster than 40ns/div, that's as good as it gets.
7.5K/sec to 100ns/div
3.8k/sec at 400ns/div
762/sec as the timebase slows down
380/sec
190/sec
dropping to 12/sec below 10us/div
And it's very bursty, up too a few dozen acquisitions before a gap anywhere from 50ms to 100's of ms. And it gets worse if you turn on various stuff.
Completely stops if you move waveforms or triger level around.
How do you observe and measure the update rate and gaps?
I shot a video today, you'll see. I've done it some older videos too.
Basically, you feed in a 1MHz square wave (that's kinda become a defacto standard signal for this purpose) and set the scope to output a trigger signal (not all scopes can do this) which you can view on another scope. Adjust timebase and watch the trigger signal, you can see the rate and the dead periods.
The Tek 2 also displays the cumulative aquisitions on the top of the screen, so you can get a rought total/sec from that display, but no other detail.
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I would rather prefer these two scopes :box: ;D
(https://www.micsig.com/uploads/ueditor/image/20220608/1654680887568220.jpg)
(https://www.micsig.com/uploads/ueditor/image/20220608/1654680887961409.jpg)
from: https://www.micsig.com/Roadmap/ (https://www.micsig.com/Roadmap/)
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FWIW I think this is actually competing with the Keysight 2000 series, in the same way that the 2000 series once competed with the Tek TDS. There are university labs absolutely full of Keysight 2000 series scopes, but they aren't going anywhere (despite their age) while the competitor scopes don't really bring any new value to the table. Honestly, for someone teaching people how to measure blips with an oscilloscope, this product doesn't really offer more than the 2000 series does, and I think it would be a waste of money to change a whole lab over. Having a built in ~10MHz AWG and 4 channels hasn't been innovative for at least a decade (maybe more). And I'm not seeing any free decoders or a radically reduced cost which I think really would make a difference. Or any other innovative ideas like, for example, real on-board scripting to write your own decoders/measurements/tests.
I do think they missed an opportunity here to do something with pricing. But once again, it would probably erode the 3 series market.
Or at the very least do what R&S did on the release of the RTB2000, they sold the first 500 or whatever it was at practically half price fully loaded, just to get the market buzzing and units in the hands of people who would talk it up. And it worked, huge numbers of forum users alone snapped one up.
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I would rather prefer these two scopes :box: ;D
Where can I buy them in the USA? What support contract will Micsig give me? I need next-day repairs.
Those are for a very different market segment than the Tek scopes being discussed here.
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I would rather prefer these two scopes :box: ;D
Only the STO2000C can compare with this new Tek although sampling and BW are less in Micsig.
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I would rather prefer these two scopes :box: ;D
Only the STO2000C can compare with this new Tek although sampling and BW are less in Micsig.
They just announced a new one with 500MHz bandwidth and 3GSa/s: https://www.micsig.com.cn/ETO/ (https://www.micsig.com.cn/ETO/)
(plus a 13.3", 1920*1080 screen, a lot more memory than this Tek, and battery is built-in)
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Some serious bullshit regarding the included software:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcxEO3fA_Ls&t=2507s (https://youtu.be/PcxEO3fA_Ls?t=2502)
"Not everybody needs serial decode, so why build that into the cost pricing of the product?"
Uhuh.
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One major reason people will buy this is because of the long product lifecycle guarantee generally of Tek stuff. You can buy the same scope for literally years.
that's also Lada strategy.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1506124;image)
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Contrary to what happened with Series 3/4/5/6, this one is holding strong in forum exchanges, after release date.
I appreciate and like the effort Tek did in this one and its format. It may very well be a thing we'll see more often in other A and B brands.
Let's give it more time.
The pricing model will have to adjust itself or it will promote the usual "accidental DIY adjustments".
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that's also Lada strategy.
Ask any motor mechanic which strategy they prefer. :popcorn:
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Just seen this today.
MSO242-BW-500 4 Analog Channels, 2.5GS/s sample rate, 10Mpts record length 500MHz Bandwidth (It's unclear if Logic analyzer is included or not) €9760
MSOX3054T MSO / MDO Oscilloscope, InfiniiVision 3000T X, 4+16 Channel, 500 MHz, 5 GSPS, 4 Mpts, 700 ps € 13160
Seems to be competitively priced. Though it comes with 1 year warranty :wtf:
A noticable/sizable jump in price between those two, the comparison in Keysight 3000 would probably be their recently released DSOX3054G ($14,000 vs comparable tek with licenses and probes $15,000). Closer would be Lecroy T3DSO3000 (Siglent) or 3000z. Like the Tek 2, the Lecroy 3000z is their lowest/cheapest model with their "full" UI, but retains active probe interface. A big step up over the Tek 2 in scope features/performance/options. Very few of these scope segments/tiers directly compare/overlap.
I compare it to the MSOX3054 because that's my benchmark for a scope with features that I most engineers need. I also don't consider buying an Asian brand for work, because nobody got fired for buying IBM.
Are you saying that would make more sense to compare it to the 2000 series Keysight?
:palm: why compare backwards to superseded models? What reason to choose 2000A/3000A/3000T instead of 3000G/1x00a/1x00G ? 3000G is same price as 3000T but more features unlocked/included.
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Automatic. Anywhere from hundreds of points to 250k.
When I manually force it to 1000pts at the slower timebases then I get the maximum 18k/sec update.
OK, and in automatic is the record length set to the max sample rate and exactly the length of the screen? I calculated 250K points to be exactly that for 10us/div, 10 division, 2.5GSa/s. How does 'zoom out' work in that case?
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One major reason people will buy this is because of the long product lifecycle guarantee generally of Tek stuff.
The guarantee that if anything breaks the repair will costs as much as a new equipment.
well... there is only one thing you can replace ( electronically).. except the display and that membrane crap.
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I must be the odd one I kind of like the new design. The VESA mount is a good idea I could see myself mounting it on a adjustable arm over the bench. The membrane buttons are a bit of a turn off though.
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Kosmic, I also like it!
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Speaking of VESA mounts:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rtb2004-vesa-mod/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rtb2004-vesa-mod/)
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that membrane crap.
According to the discussion: That "membrane crap" is there to keep finger-dirt out when it's used in dirty environments and so that people can sterilize the keypad easily with anti-COVID wipes.
(this was designed during COVID times and we're not the target demographic)
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...their competition being the RTB2000, which can do 300k...
I wished it could do that, but it can´t:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg1405398/#msg1405398 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg1405398/#msg1405398)
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that membrane crap.
According to the discussion: That "membrane crap" is there to keep finger-dirt out when it's used in dirty environments and so that people can sterilize the keypad easily with anti-COVID wipes.
(this was designed during COVID times and we're not the target demographic)
it is still crap to me. i want tactile feedback ! Membrane could work if they put in a haptic driver . then again. membrane i so outdated. you have a touch screen. They should have made it capsense !
My gripes with membrane
- no tactile feedback
- membranes invariably fail. the patterning oxidizes, shorts out or opens.
- the top foil hardens and cracks / splits/peels over time. go take a look at your average membrane keyboard used in fuel pumps.
- they are glued on from the outside which makes them VERY hard to replace.
- if they are used with tactiles underneath the plunger of the actual button starts making indentations in the membrane . splitting / peeling unsightlyness.
- domed tactiles are even more prone to cracks with the dome falling off
- Once the membrane integrity is damaged moisture gets in with disaster results.
use a membrane foil with a rubber key overlay. those rubber mats are easily replaceable. i don't care about covid wipedowns. it's my scope on my bench in my lab. nobody else fingerpokes it
if this is targeted as a handheld , drag into the field. i could live with it. but then they show a fancy bench stand and tout vesa mounting. what is it ? what are we targeting ? handheld , or wall mount ?
another thing that irks me is that there is no tekprobe interface. can't use any active diff or active probe... that's a bit of a bummer. all that is needed is the contact foil and some regulators and an i2c bus.
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that membrane crap.
According to the discussion: That "membrane crap" is there to keep finger-dirt out when it's used in dirty environments and so that people can sterilize the keypad easily with anti-COVID wipes.
(this was designed during COVID times and we're not the target demographic)
it is still crap to me. i want tactile feedback ! Membrane could work if they put in a haptic driver . then again. membrane i so outdated. you have a touch screen. They should have made it capsense !
My gripes with membrane
- no tactile feedback
- membranes invariably fail. the patterning oxidizes, shorts out or opens.
- the top foil hardens and cracks / splits/peels over time. go take a look at your average membrane keyboard used in fuel pumps.
- they are glued on from the outside which makes them VERY hard to replace.
- if they are used with tactiles underneath the plunger of the actual button starts making indentations in the membrane . splitting / peeling unsightlyness.
- domed tactiles are even more prone to cracks with the dome falling off
- Once the membrane integrity is damaged moisture gets in with disaster results.
use a membrane foil with a rubber key overlay. those rubber mats are easily replaceable. i don't care about covid wipedowns. it's my scope on my bench in my lab. nobody else fingerpokes it
if this is targeted as a handheld , drag into the field. i could live with it. but then they show a fancy bench stand and tout vesa mounting. what is it ? what are we targeting ? handheld , or wall mount ?
another thing that irks me is that there is no tekprobe interface. can't use any active diff or active probe... that's a bit of a bummer. all that is needed is the contact foil and some regulators and an i2c bus.
We are not the target demographic for this product. Simple as that.
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Let us not forget the main demographic of this thread:
1. Not the target market
2. Have no professional use for it
3. Can’t afford it anyway
4. Dislike it.
This is most threads on the internet about anything that costs more than $50.
Sometimes I’m tempted to buy products and enjoy them just to piss off the haters.
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it is still crap to me
Would you buy one of these with your own money if they put proper buttons on it?
If not, why complain?
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This is most threads on the internet about anything that costs more than $50.
$50? Say $25 and I agree with you.
Now enough pissing off/sarcasm (both my comments on this thread were exactly that) I would see myself, if I had the money for it, to buy this Tek.
I really liked what they achieve here and I'm totally sure this one does a lot more than what I'm able to need.
Even if it doesn't sell that well, at least it gives something for other manufacturers to think about.
And that is always good in my book.
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My gripes with membrane
- no tactile feedback
- membranes invariably fail. the patterning oxidizes, shorts out or opens.
- the top foil hardens and cracks / splits/peels over time. go take a look at your average membrane keyboard used in fuel pumps.
I remember googling something like "tactile membrane keypad million cycle (https://www.google.com/search?q=tactile+membrane+keypad+million+cycle)" earlier in the thread and getting plenty of hits. :-//
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There is another major problem with membrane keypads, fingernails, specially with longnails.
Its pretty common for these people to press the buttons with the fingernail not with the finger itself. The nail would cut the membrane film (usually polycarbonate)
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Just seen this today.
MSO242-BW-500 4 Analog Channels, 2.5GS/s sample rate, 10Mpts record length 500MHz Bandwidth (It's unclear if Logic analyzer is included or not) €9760
MSOX3054T MSO / MDO Oscilloscope, InfiniiVision 3000T X, 4+16 Channel, 500 MHz, 5 GSPS, 4 Mpts, 700 ps € 13160
Seems to be competitively priced. Though it comes with 1 year warranty :wtf:
A noticable/sizable jump in price between those two, the comparison in Keysight 3000 would probably be their recently released DSOX3054G ($14,000 vs comparable tek with licenses and probes $15,000). Closer would be Lecroy T3DSO3000 (Siglent) or 3000z. Like the Tek 2, the Lecroy 3000z is their lowest/cheapest model with their "full" UI, but retains active probe interface. A big step up over the Tek 2 in scope features/performance/options. Very few of these scope segments/tiers directly compare/overlap.
I compare it to the MSOX3054 because that's my benchmark for a scope with features that I most engineers need. I also don't consider buying an Asian brand for work, because nobody got fired for buying IBM.
Are you saying that would make more sense to compare it to the 2000 series Keysight?
:palm: why compare backwards to superseded models? What reason to choose 2000A/3000A/3000T instead of 3000G/1x00a/1x00G ? 3000G is same price as 3000T but more features unlocked/included.
It really doesn't matter though, because as you said it, it is the same price.
Let me know if you just have a temper tantrum, or you are just here to pick a fight with anyone over a minor detail.
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@eevblog Thanks for the world exclusive video. So nice the guys let you tear it down when they must have already known your reputation for brutal Aussie honesty. An interesting form factor, pehaps inspired by those prosumer music production studios? At a glance, some might wonder where the headphone jack is? :-//
On the prosumer look: On a cheap-bay HankyScope, plastik parts held together with randomly located self tappers is expected. However, my brand expectations at this price-point warrants a milled aluminium [or carbon fibre] back shell; held in place with stainless torx bolts.
On robustness, has anyone drop tested this scope from a meter height on to a concrete floor, and on to just one corner? Twice? Or even wrenched the BNC sockets sideways by snagging the test leads in a the door of a passing car? The metal chastity yoke is a must have accessory. Is there a silicone-rubber bumper/fender to fit round the scope when it's being used in the wilderness? For the hardware asset managers, this scope belongs in the 'test pool' on a lease/service/calibration contract. It's the leasing company's expensive problem to fix when one of your wunderkind engineers zaps it :-BROKE
I see the scope as two distinct variants; a slim tablet desk version and a fat battery portable version. Maybe the battery pack fits other scopes in the series? Or were there two design teams in different timezones doing plug-and-play thinking? Either way, in a world s so used to iPads, a snap on battery pack is rather 20th century.
Again, thumbs up for that vesa mount.
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Snap in batteries are good for hot swapping. Also in industrial areas sometimes it's demanded to remove batteries.
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Snap in batteries are good for hot swapping. Also in industrial areas sometimes it's demanded to remove batteries.
I've seen a lot of industrial BS in a few years with Industrial Automation, never about batteries.
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it is still crap to me
Would you buy one of these with your own money if they put proper buttons on it?
If not, why complain?
If i were in the market for a new scope i might.. , 3K$ is not too bad for this kind of performance
I like the form factor and easy portability.
4 analog + 16 digital and an awg for 2700$ (but i feel there is some additional price..unfortunately hidden behind a registration wall. i'm not playing...
if a look at a rigol (350MHz 4+16) it climbs fast into the 4K range (digital cable + protocol decoders + deep mem + awg). Hewagikeypackentsight is even more pricey...
But
- that membrane keypad is a real letdown
- the screen resolution is meh .. 1280x800 in 2022 ? come on. a 100$ tablet has higher resolution. And don't tell me "that would require a lot of graphics power" that Zync processor has plenty !
- no tekprobe connectors so i could use a bunch of my active and diff probes (now i have to use a 1103 power supply). they had the room (and the cavities so to see) to implement that. then again, tek changed their probe interface ...
i'd be looking hard at those micsig machines if i really wanted a touchscreen / tablet formfactor
then again i'd probably get on ebay or one of the used equipment dealers to get a bit more bang for the buck...
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I dunno, the ability to wipe down the keys sounds pretty nice. Unless they chose nasty domes.
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I dunno, the ability to wipe down the keys sounds pretty nice. Unless they chose nasty domes.
Yeah it'll be much more pleasant when you buy them from ebay in 20 years from a dead ham's wife and you have to clean off the layer of nicotine :-DD
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If i were in the market for a new scope i might.. , 3K$ is not too bad for this kind of performance
I like the form factor and easy portability.
4 analog + 16 digital and an awg for 2700$ (but i feel there is some additional price..unfortunately hidden behind a registration wall. i'm not playing...
if a look at a rigol (350MHz 4+16) it climbs fast into the 4K range (digital cable + protocol decoders + deep mem + awg). Hewagikeypackentsight is even more pricey...
The $2700 Tek MSO24 is 70MHz, "equivalent" Rigol MSO5074 $999
350MHz Tek MSO24 $8100 vs Rigol MSO5354 $2700
License bundle awg/serial for Tek $1300 vs Rigol $700 (promotion with Rigol at the moment is $0 for this)
Logic probe set for Tek $1000 vs Rigol $400
As you say, there is "hidden price" especially when most of the comparable low end scopes are offering the serial decodes and/or awg for free.
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:palm: why compare backwards to superseded models? What reason to choose 2000A/3000A/3000T instead of 3000G/1x00a/1x00G ? 3000G is same price as 3000T but more features unlocked/included.
It really doesn't matter though, because as you said it, it is the same price.
Same price but different features, so making comparison to older/outdated model is intentionally misleading/cherry picking. But seem to be the flavor of this thread. New scope from Tek competitive with other brands superseded models, completely ignoring where the market has moved to. New scope should be compared with current competitors.
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4 analog + 16 digital and an awg for 2700$ (but i feel there is some additional price..unfortunately hidden behind a registration wall. i'm not playing...
Anybody have a price list...? :popcorn:
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It would be interesting to watch them compete on pricing/features since these low cost scopes are made in China (Tek 3 series and up are partially? US assembled) so that's not the sticking point. All-most all functionality in a single cheap+large SOC/ZYNQ is a change from the 4/5/6 series, which should be faster than the competitive platforms (and offer more memory) but Tek somehow cripples/dumbs it down.
Yeah but at least Tek did some half smart stuff by using 3GSa/s ADC's and throttling them back to 2.5GSa/s so to get away with minimal cooling and keep the thing quiet.
With most 2000 class scopes 2GSa/s Tek has an edge on them in sampling rate however Dave's latest findings of WFMS and the Teks quite limited memory depth and needing to give good battery life required Tek to clock it down some to meet the design brief.
3G down to 2.5G would be a fairly minor power saving (10-20% of the parts in that path). Limiting the acquisition memory depth while the DDR space is still there and refreshed is not saving any power at all (trigger prefill is always writing at the same bandwidth, only place to save power is in blind time lol) so its just a market segmentation thing and/or avoiding bogging down the UI.
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4 analog + 16 digital and an awg for 2700$ (but i feel there is some additional price..unfortunately hidden behind a registration wall. i'm not playing...
Anybody have a price list...? :popcorn:
Pick your preferred/local seller and search for MSO22 or MSO24 ?
https://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=MSO24 (https://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=MSO24)
They're even tidy enough to make a table out of the models:
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350MHz Tek MSO24 $8100
As you say, there is "hidden price" especially when most of the comparable low end scopes are offering the serial decodes and/or awg for free.
website says 2700.. ahh marketing bullshit .. didn't see the "starting at" another strike (that plus the "hide the price behind a quote request.", what are they afraid of ? that people will instantly compare to machines where they can see the price ? and no longer consider these ?). You give them a finger and they gauge out your eyes. For 6 to 8K i can probably get a used 7104B .. 4+16 1GHz and 4Gs/s per channel (none of that one convertor for 2 channels.)
This thing isn't worth 8k. 4K full option yes. above that becomes hard to defend against other brands. for 8K i can even get a new hewlettagikeypackardlentsight ... (aka a HPAK)
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350MHz Tek MSO24 $8100
As you say, there is "hidden price" especially when most of the comparable low end scopes are offering the serial decodes and/or awg for free.
website says 2700.. ahh marketing bullshit .. didn't see the "starting at" another strike (that plus the "hide the price behind a quote request.", what are they afraid of ? that people will instantly compare to machines where they can see the price ? and no longer consider these ?). You give them a finger and they gauge out your eyes. For 6 to 8K i can probably get a used 7104B .. 4+16 1GHz and 4Gs/s per channel (none of that one convertor for 2 channels.)
This thing isn't worth 8k. 4K full option yes. above that becomes hard to defend against other brands. for 8K i can even get a new hewlettagikeypackardlentsight ... (aka a HPAK)
IMHO it is not worth looking at the 2 series models over 200MHz due to the lack of 50 Ohm inputs. And the Agilent 7104B is a rather outdated model with a tiny memory (the 8MPts is actually 2Mpts in most cases) which is rather noisy as well. $6k is a ridiculous price to pay for that model. I used to own a 7104A a long time ago (paid much less for it back then) and I would not buy that one ever again. For >200MHz I'd look elsewhere.
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that membrane crap.
According to the discussion: That "membrane crap" is there to keep finger-dirt out when it's used in dirty environments and so that people can sterilize the keypad easily with anti-COVID wipes.
(this was designed during COVID times and we're not the target demographic)
Having designed countless automated jigs for production lines and test environments, yes, real buttons are a PITA. I'd prefer easy to wipe membrane buttons for this kind of environment.
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IMHO it is not worth looking at the 2 series models over 200MHz due to the lack of 50 Ohm inputs.
Yep, I'd agree with that. I was surprised at the 500MHz and lack of 50ohm input. But they get 500MHz for free with the Tek026 ASIC, so why not I guess.
IIRC it comes standard with 200MHz probes, so imagine if they made the base model 200MHz and included the serial decode and battery for the base price, I think a lot of people would be very tempted.
The form factor aside, it's basically a pricing model issue.
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My gripes with membrane
- no tactile feedback
- membranes invariably fail. the patterning oxidizes, shorts out or opens.
- the top foil hardens and cracks / splits/peels over time. go take a look at your average membrane keyboard used in fuel pumps.
I remember googling something like "tactile membrane keypad million cycle (https://www.google.com/search?q=tactile+membrane+keypad+million+cycle)" earlier in the thread and getting plenty of hits. :-//
Manufacturers can claim whatever they want, reality in real world use is a different story.
Its hard to tell from the video if Tek is using tactile or non-tactile domes, I assume non due to the shapes? Once you go to that level (metal dome with cutout for LED lighting) costs start to rise significantly. There is a wide spectrum of quality for membrane, without having it in front of me its hard to tell.
Dave: does the button have any tactile feel at all? Can you tell if there is a snap dome behind it?
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Yeah it'll be much more pleasant when you buy them from ebay in 20 years from a dead ham's wife and you have to clean off the layer of nicotine :-DD
Probably less of an issue by then. For one thing most hams these days are not technical enough to own an oscilloscope, especially not a newer one from an A-list brand. Second, smoking rates are quite a lot lower today than they were 20-30 years ago.
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IMHO it is not worth looking at the 2 series models over 200MHz due to the lack of 50 Ohm inputs.
Yep, I'd agree with that. I was surprised at the 500MHz and lack of 50ohm input. But they get 500MHz for free with the Tek026 ASIC, so why not I guess.
50 ohm termination strikes me as a rather basic feature these days. My scopes all have it, except for the old analog 465b. How much could it have possibly cost to include it? I guess maybe they worried it would cannibalize sales from higher end models.
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One major reason people will buy this is because of the long product lifecycle guarantee generally of Tek stuff. You can buy the same scope for literally years.
that's also Lada strategy.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1506124;image)
I quite like that strategy actually, those pictures don't tell you anything about what's under the skin but IMO I think the BMW design peaked in the late 80s and beyond that they just got uglier and more bulbous.
Take for example the Boeing 737, it has been manufactured since 1967 and has stayed largely the same since then. Sure there have been lots of incremental updates to the internal systems, they've changed engines a few times, and made other various tweaks but the basic appearance has not changed much at all. It's an example of function over form, like any good tool, whereas automotive design focuses cosmetic change for the sake of keeping up with fashion fads each year. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. My taste has not changed appreciably over the years, I don't like it when styles constantly change and I can't relate to people that constantly get bored and need change.
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I guess by now most of you have seen the teardowns. Here is my review & teardown:
https://youtu.be/qIrn9DuOoiM
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Dave: does the button have any tactile feel at all? Can you tell if there is a snap dome behind it?
There is definite sharp snap like it's a dome. And you can feel the back pressure as you release it, so feels like a metal dome to me. But could just be a really snappy feeling embossed membrane.
The smaller buttons seem to require more force than the larger wide button which work across most of the width, so not a round dome under them.
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IMHO it is not worth looking at the 2 series models over 200MHz due to the lack of 50 Ohm inputs.
Yep, I'd agree with that. I was surprised at the 500MHz and lack of 50ohm input. But they get 500MHz for free with the Tek026 ASIC, so why not I guess.
50 ohm termination strikes me as a rather basic feature these days. My scopes all have it, except for the old analog 465b. How much could it have possibly cost to include it? I guess maybe they worried it would cannibalize sales from higher end models.
50 ohm inputs are usually adding a relay per channel, quite the pricey addition in a low cost product. Availability of 50 ohm termination built in is hit/miss in low end scopes:
Rigol, 2000 yes, 5000 no
R&S, 2000 no
Keysight, 1000 no, 2000 no, 3000 yes
Siglent, 2000 yes
Lecroy, 3000 yes, 3000z yes
Tek, TBS2000 no (??? hidden? it does support active probes), 2 series no, 3 series yes
More teardowns would help!
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IMHO it is not worth looking at the 2 series models over 200MHz due to the lack of 50 Ohm inputs.
Yep, I'd agree with that. I was surprised at the 500MHz and lack of 50ohm input. But they get 500MHz for free with the Tek026 ASIC, so why not I guess.
50 ohm termination strikes me as a rather basic feature these days. My scopes all have it, except for the old analog 465b. How much could it have possibly cost to include it? I guess maybe they worried it would cannibalize sales from higher end models.
50 ohm inputs are usually adding a relay per channel, quite the pricey addition in a low cost product. Availability of 50 ohm termination built in is hit/miss in low end scopes:
Rigol, 2000 yes, 5000 no
R&S, 2000 no
Keysight, 1000 no, 2000 no, 3000 yes
Siglent, 2000 yes
Lecroy, 3000 yes, 3000z yes
Tek, TBS2000 no (??? hidden? it does support active probes), 2 series no, 3 series yes
More teardowns would help!
It's just a marketing decision so not to damage the sales of other models in a manufacturers lineup.
In my time SDS2000, SDS2000X, SDS2000X Plus, SDS2000X-E and one further but now discontinued outlier SDS1000X+ all had/have 50 Ohm and 1M inputs.
As others also have mentioned, any scope capable of 200+ MHz should have them IF the design engineers are listened to.
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It's just a marketing decision so not to damage the sales of other models in a manufacturers lineup.
In my time SDS2000, SDS2000X, SDS2000X Plus, SDS2000X-E and one further but now discontinued outlier SDS1000X+ all had/have 50 Ohm and 1M inputs.
As others also have mentioned, any scope capable of 200+ MHz should have them IF the design engineers are listened to.
In my experiments I showed that a pass through 50-Ohm termination can get around the lack of input termination. It is not the most convenient solution, but it works.
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It's just a marketing decision so not to damage the sales of other models in a manufacturers lineup.
In my time SDS2000, SDS2000X, SDS2000X Plus, SDS2000X-E and one further but now discontinued outlier SDS1000X+ all had/have 50 Ohm and 1M inputs.
As others also have mentioned, any scope capable of 200+ MHz should have them IF the design engineers are listened to.
In my experiments I showed that a pass through 50-Ohm termination can get around the lack of input termination. It is not the most convenient solution, but it works.
Yes, I use inline terminators and they are fine up to 500MHz, so it's an obvious thing to leave out if you are shaving cost. I remember it being a big to-do when the R&S RTB2000 came out. They know it's not a show-stopper for customers.
It's the principle and the convenience of the thing really.
If I had to chose I'd rather have x10 probe detection than 50 ohm input.
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I dunno, it looks like RF relays are $15 in low quantity. For a $10k list price... that's a pretty close shave.
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I dunno, it looks like RF relays are $15 in low quantity. For a $10k list price... that's a pretty close shave.
x4 channels then x5 to cover gross margin
10% of the cost of the bottom end model!
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Yeah, and I suppose they have to design them to the prices they are going to sell at, rather than the prices listed before they start playing the bulk / educational / Tektronix Tuesday discount game ::)
Besides, if they are targeting education, kids are just going to burn out the 50 ohm termination anyway. Might as well have it in an awkward replaceable dongle.
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If I had to chose I'd rather have x10 probe detection than 50 ohm input.
are you saying this thing cannot detect a 1:10 probe ? that would be another colossal mistake
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I measured the update rate for a 1MHz input.
18.8k/sec faster than 40ns/div, that's as good as it gets.
7.5K/sec to 100ns/div
3.8k/sec at 400ns/div
762/sec as the timebase slows down
380/sec
190/sec
dropping to 12/sec below 10us/div
And it's very bursty, up too a few dozen acquisitions before a gap anywhere from 50ms to 100's of ms. And it gets worse if you turn on various stuff.
Completely stops if you move waveforms or triger level around.
So yeah, it's disappointingly poor for a supposedly new architecture (Lexington it's called) that's been 15 years or so since the last one.
Forgot to mention that those updates do not include the dead time which drops it down drastically.
Best I was able to measure actually pers second rather than maximum burst rate was 1.4k/sec.
Video coming shortly.
Majority of people said they want it on the main channel:
https://twitter.com/eevblog/status/1534740699819933696
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I dunno, it looks like RF relays are $15 in low quantity. For a $10k list price... that's a pretty close shave.
Yep, EE's expect better, hell go price up 4 quality 50 Ohm BNC feed throughs and good luck finding them at $15.
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Surely they will half the price in a special bundle like the RTB2k-COM4 ?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlwcdUnRw6w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlwcdUnRw6w)
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If I had to chose I'd rather have x10 probe detection than 50 ohm input.
are you saying this thing cannot detect a 1:10 probe ? that would be another colossal mistake
Yep, no detection ring around the BNC. Same as the R&S RTB2000.
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Anybody have a price list...? :popcorn:
Pick your preferred/local seller and search for MSO22 or MSO24 ?
https://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=MSO24 (https://www.tequipment.net/search/?F_Keyword=MSO24)
They're even tidy enough to make a table out of the models:
It's not just the price of the bare machine, it's the extras.
$4000 for 100MHz+serial decoders? I'm definitely not the demographic. I can't imagine the software or experience is that awesome.
If it's hackable and I can get edu-pricing on the base model? I'd have to think about it. It's still a lot more than eg. a Siglent 2000 and Micsig just announced three new high-end models.
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Surely they will half the price in a special bundle like the RTB2k-COM4 ?
Tek aren't exactly famous for bundling stuff, let alone a half price intro.
The R&S half price intro was genius marketing.
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Tek aren't exactly famous for bundling stuff, let alone a half price intro.
When's the Tek-hacking video? :popcorn:
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It's just a marketing decision so not to damage the sales of other models in a manufacturers lineup.
In my time SDS2000, SDS2000X, SDS2000X Plus, SDS2000X-E and one further but now discontinued outlier SDS1000X+ all had/have 50 Ohm and 1M inputs.
As others also have mentioned, any scope capable of 200+ MHz should have them IF the design engineers are listened to.
In my experiments I showed that a pass through 50-Ohm termination can get around the lack of input termination. It is not the most convenient solution, but it works.
Doesn't the 14pF input capacitance cause VSWR issues, or did you insert a 3dB pad to minimise them?
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If I had to chose I'd rather have x10 probe detection than 50 ohm input.
are you saying this thing cannot detect a 1:10 probe ? that would be another colossal mistake
Yep, no detection ring around the BNC. Same as the R&S RTB2000.
Personally I don't see probe detection by means of a ring around the BNC as a big thing. In my experience it gets in the way rather than being useful. If you -like me- have a whole bunch of special probes with various attenuations, the simple probe detection doesn't serve any purpose. In some cases it even gets in the way because it doesn't recognise the vendor specific resistances.
If you insist on having probes being detected automatically, then you need to buy vendor specific probes which an extra interface next to the BNC to provide power and communication with the probe.
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Personally I don't see probe detection by means of a ring around the BNC as a big thing.
Yep. With a touch screen 'scope it's really fast to change the setting*. No twisty knobs or digging through menus.
(*) Hopefully.
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If you insist on having probes being detected automatically, then you need to buy vendor specific probes which an extra interface next to the BNC to provide power and communication with the probe.
Whose this equipment also don't support since such interface is not present as in the R&S RTB2000.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlwcdUnRw6w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlwcdUnRw6w)
Just watched this and must say I am both surprised and disappointed with this performance. My old Tek TDS784 from the 90's would leave this in the dust :D LOL
Must have been specced by bean counters :D
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I'm wondering if the 2 series puts up a better show on wfm/s in segmented ("FastFrame") mode? And what the 3 series "run mode" performance is if ">280000 wfm/s" is in fact a segmented mode specification?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlwcdUnRw6w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlwcdUnRw6w)
Just watched this and must say I am both surprised and disappointed with this performance. My old Tek TDS784 from the 90's would leave this in the dust :D LOL
Must have been specced by bean counters :D
No chance. It was specified by engineers. Then software engineers came and ruined it.
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Maybe they realised that having advanced triggers that catch a glitch 100% is better than any waveform update rate figure. Remember that high waveform update rates is something that has been hyped by Keysight. IMHO it is not an important number at all.
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No chance. It was specified by engineers. Then software engineers came and ruined it.
Perhaps that's why Keysight seem to be struggling to get a replacement for their existing Megazoom design? Product manager to test engineer -- "Did you just say the dev prototype is updating slower than our existing model?"
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So it doesn't have manual memory control if I understood Dave right?
That's gonna open the old wounds... :horse:
Cheap SDS1104X-E outperforms it in refresh rate...
If you want a brand name scope that has basic functions for general simple scope use, get DSOX1204G.
It actually does that job really well.
If you want simple touchscreen handheld scope with battery in tablet format get the Micsig.
If you want up to 500MHz touch screen scope that is small and powerful get new Siglent SDS2000X HD. It has 2 Math channels. It is 12 Bit..
Or get R&S RTB2000. Decent scope.
On all of these options you'll get better scope for less or same money...
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No chance. It was specified by engineers. Then software engineers came and ruined it.
Perhaps that's why Keysight seem to be struggling to get a replacement for their existing Megazoom design? Product manager to test engineer -- "Did you just say the dev prototype is updating slower than our existing model?"
They are not struggling anything. They have several new asics designed for higher end range..
Low end range is running on Fluke 87V principle.. Customers want more of the same.. You only refresh design to account for parts availability and open few more licenses free...
There will not be upgrade to Infiniivision range with Megazoom IV chipset.
They would need to introduce new midrange scope line between Infiniivision and Infiniium line, and then discontinue Infiniivision 4000/6000 and replace it with that new line. They could use 2 EXR input modules for 4 CH, basically make EXR -lite. But there is allready lots of overlap between 6000 and EXR in pricing, and EXR is much more capable..
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So it doesn't have manual memory control if I understood Dave right?
:palm: As I wrote before: it is a Tektronix so it has manual memory control by definition. Just check the manual.
And there is something else which is very interesting that you'll find there: there is no limit on the number of math, reference and bus decoding traces! Say again that other choices are always better... 8)
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So it doesn't have manual memory control if I understood Dave right?
That's gonna open the old wounds... :horse:
Cheap SDS1104X-E outperforms it in refresh rate...
If you want a brand name scope that has basic functions for general simple scope use, get DSOX1204G.
It actually does that job really well.
If you want simple touchscreen handheld scope with battery in tablet format get the Micsig.
If you want up to 500MHz touch screen scope that is small and powerful get new Siglent SDS2000X HD. It has 2 Math channels. It is 12 Bit..
Or get R&S RTB2000. Decent scope.
On all of these options you'll get better scope for less or same money...
but this is not a tablet (and i don't want a tablet scope nor an handheld scope) this is a bench scope thin enough that can be held in your lap with your laptop (there is a photo in the marketing material that is litterally me but instead i have a tek TPS on my lap over the laptop keyboard)
this scope has specific use cases in which there is no real competitor, and could sell real good. In those cases the poor wfm/s doesn't matter, the memory management :horse: doesn't matter, the membrane pad are just the right thing. let's see how long it will take for siglent to make one, that will be interesting.
BTW #1 i commented about the dead horse in the introduction video posted above, though it didn't gain traction :D
BTW #2 performance is just what i would expect from this scope seeing what's going to replace, that is still sold at equal or higher prices, 15 y/o architecture with abysmal wfm/s and 2.5kS memory per channel...
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BTW #2 performance is just what i would expect from this scope seeing what's going to replace, that is still sold at equal or higher prices, 15 y/o architecture with abysmal wfm/s and 2.5kS memory per channel...
What scope are you assuming this replaces? The TDS2000C?
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How is this thing ever going to catch runt pulses ? or glitches ? it almost looks like they are doing software triggering ...
that the screen freezes when you are zooming on or out, ok , but not when you change trigger level ! if i slide that trigger level up or down the machine should keep capturing .. that's how you seek out glitches in the first place. play with the trigger level until it traps something that is not normal. you do not know what you are looking for in the first place. it is an abnormality. so you need to bank on repetitive , fast and reliable acquisition to fish for it. This scope is sleeping 90% of its time , and completely dead if you do anything on screen.
they have a powerful FPGA and multicore processor. why is this not handled in the hardware fabric ?
I used to joke that Tektronix in Dutch was written as Trektopnix (looks like junk). I got bitten multiple times on their TDS540 (i believe it was a 540. it was 4 channel machine with only 2 adc's). equivalent time sampling ... what a joke. And using two adc's for 4 channels. That re-trigger (for the old school scope users : so they effectively run in ALT mode, not chop mode.). So the acquisitions are desynchronized in time. ( the sweep for channel 1 and 3 is taken first , then they throw the multiplexer and sweep channel 2 and 4. you are not looking at the same point in time. if something happens on channel two immediately after you triggered on a channel 1 event you will never see it. (that's what bit me...)
The acquisition system should run independent of the visualization system. That should be easy on that Zync... i wonder how come that is not the case. Are they using this thing just as an application processor ?
Maybe, since this is a prototype, they are still working on the FPGA logic. it could be that this will be fixed in the production machine or a later fpga build. time-to-market could have been a driver. benefit of the doubt. but it doesn't smell right.
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How is this thing ever going to catch runt pulses ? or glitches ? it almost looks like they are doing software triggering ...
Lecroy gets away with that just fine but I doubt that Tektronix does triggering in software. They probably do that inside an ASIC.
that the screen freezes when you are zooming on or out, ok , but not when you change trigger level ! if i slide that trigger level up or down the machine should keep capturing .. that's how you seek out glitches in the first place. play with the trigger level until it traps something that is not normal. you do not know what you are looking for in the first place. it is an abnormality. so you need to bank on repetitive , fast and reliable acquisition to fish for it. This scope is sleeping 90% of its time , and completely dead if you do anything on screen.
Just acquire a longer record and repetitive abnormalities are easy to spot. R&S has inverse color grading which is excellent for this purpose. But for anything that occurs with long intervals, triggering is your best option. BTW: If you blink with your eyes on a high waveform update rate scope, you are also likely to miss an abnormality. The same for most of the cases where you are not running the oscilloscope at it's peak update rate. IOW: high waveform update rates are highly overrated.
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How is this thing ever going to catch runt pulses ? or glitches ? it almost looks like they are doing software triggering ...
Lecroy gets away with that just fine but I doubt that Tektronix does triggering in software. They probably do that inside an ASIC.
LeCrap ? same class as Trektopnix. I used Z6. Super expensive machines. you needed ear-covering noise cancelling headphones, the fans were that loud. And their logic analysis add-one only lied on screen. it showed stuff that wasn't there and could not maintain a time-lock with the analog channels. Replaced it with an Agilent MSO. And that dinky pluggable frontpanel was nothing but trouble. Nothing but bad contacts. wiggle a knob and the usb disconnect so your scope sat there going pling-ploing all the time (these are windows machines so it chimes everytime a usb device connects/disconnects). and the quality of those plastic knobs on the rotary encoders.. after a year they all split and fell off. move your scope from cubicle to lab and you leave a trail of encoder knobs in the hallway.
Lecroy ? no thank you. i'm done with those guys...
No asic. we are talking this Tek 2 series. there is only that Zync FPGA in there.
Just acquire a longer record and repetitive abnormalities are easy to spot.
it's the non-repetitive ones that i'm interested in. Put the thing in infinite persistence and let it run. That's where update rate is important. The faster the hardware can cycle data the faster you will trap events.
This Tek thing sleeps 90% of its time. and then it does hiccups as well...
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No asic. we are talking this Tek 2 series. there is only that Zync FPGA in there.
Look at the teardown. There is another Tek ASIC in there which could have the trigger engine inside. I'm not 100% convinced that this is (only) for the AWG function as Dave & Shariar suggest.
I do fully agree with you about the poor build & hardware quality of Lecroy. It is not what you would expect from such expensive equipment.
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Personally I don't see probe detection by means of a ring around the BNC as a big thing.
Me neither - 99% of the time you're using a x10, and if you need anything else, you're fully aware of it and it's no big deal to select the probe manually. Conversely I have had times where a bad connection on a probe ring caused some puzzlement over wierd amplitude readings
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Would just like to point out that in my professional career I’ve only ever used scopes on which the probe detection was in some way broken as well. Same applies to the old Tek analogue scopes.
As for probes I do run my scopes with a BNC and T piece termination a lot. But I can press two buttons and not die of exhaustion switching it to 1X mode.
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Would just like to point out that in my professional career I’ve only ever used scopes on which the probe detection was in some way broken as well. Same applies to the old Tek analogue scopes.
The only issue I've run into with Tek is that most of them won't correctly read a 20X probe. But as far as other makes go, I'd much rather have no probe sensing rather than a system that gets it wrong and promptly overrides your manual input. I was almost at the point of making some insulating rings until I just lucked into an older non-readout version of my 100X probes.
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On Dave's video at 17.38 the runt pulse happens every 838.8ms, so about once per second (per spec), I don't understand how the 3054 is showing it constantly on screen, at what appears to be a much faster rate than that?
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Maybe they realised that having advanced triggers that catch a glitch 100% is better than any waveform update rate figure. Remember that high waveform update rates is something that has been hyped by Keysight. IMHO it is not an important number at all.
But its possible to have both. With rigol, the simple triggers will have high wfm/s, but then when you enable the really advanced triggers (mask testing, etc) the wfm/s rate drops dramatically as its done in software.
I don't see how Teks triggers are anything special, maybe I missed some? Shahriar showed off the runt trigger.
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:palm: why compare backwards to superseded models? What reason to choose 2000A/3000A/3000T instead of 3000G/1x00a/1x00G ? 3000G is same price as 3000T but more features unlocked/included.
It really doesn't matter though, because as you said it, it is the same price.
Same price but different features, so making comparison to older/outdated model is intentionally misleading/cherry picking. But seem to be the flavor of this thread. New scope from Tek competitive with other brands superseded models, completely ignoring where the market has moved to. New scope should be compared with current competitors.
The only comparison I made was for the speed and the number of channels. I think you misunderstand me. I have a MSOX3104T at work, which I selected. I wanted a 3054T, but this was available for practically the same price so I choose this one. I'm not trying to compare it to the 3054G or A, because honestly, I don't even know what is the difference between them. When I say they came out with it, the only thing I saw was that it's ugly color, and yawned. Even if I would pick a scope now, I would probably pick an agilent one, because the Keithley and Tekrtonix was able to let me down in some completely unexpected and innovative ways with every equipment that I bought from them over the years.
Like this one, missing the logic analyser part on launch?
I am just trying to put it's price in context.
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IOW: high waveform update rates are highly overrated.
Overrated, perhaps, but I find a reasonably good update rate combined with color grading and medium persistence to be a very good way to find certain types of abnormalities that might be very, very difficult to trigger on even if you already knew they were there. This is one of the capabilities that for me puts the $500 Siglent SDS1104X-E into the outstanding value category. I can't imagine paying good money for a pro scope that doesn't do this as well. Of course, perhaps the Tek can do it and it just takes a slightly different approach or something. The persistence is clearly very short in the video and no color grading is used. I'd be glad to check it out if Tek wants so send me an a evaluation copy...
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IOW: high waveform update rates are highly overrated.
Overrated, perhaps, but I find a reasonably good update rate combined with color grading and medium persistence to be a very good way to find certain types of abnormalities that might be very, very difficult to trigger on even if you already knew they were there. This is one of the capabilities that for me puts the $500 Siglent SDS1104X-E into the outstanding value category. I can't imagine paying good money for a pro scope that doesn't do this as well. Of course, perhaps the Tek can do it and it just takes a slightly different approach or something. The persistence is clearly very short in the video and no color grading is used. I'd be glad to check it out if Tek wants so send me an a evaluation copy...
Yes, no intensity grading is shown in the videos of this new scope so it looks like it doesnt do it at all. So its very slow for some reason, without even doing what the competition manages to do.
BTW: If you blink with your eyes on a high waveform update rate scope, you are also likely to miss an abnormality.
Still persisting with these lies? Waveform update is not equal or related to the display update or persistence, they are orthogonal. Most (all?) intensity graded scope displays have a control over the persistence so that a single outlier event remains on the screen for some significant fraction of a second (or longer if you set it). Blinking does not miss it, they aren't shown for the 1/1000th of a second or just one frame of the display rate.
Update rate always seems to get certain people here hot under the collar. Its a good thing to have and has some specific use cases in the extreme, but there is a middle ground where most products sit (far below the theoretical peak rate) fast enough that it feels fluid and interactive. Thats where the sorts of long gaps in display update that the Tek shows become noticeable and do impact the user, some of the Rigols do it too.
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BTW #2 performance is just what i would expect from this scope seeing what's going to replace, that is still sold at equal or higher prices, 15 y/o architecture with abysmal wfm/s and 2.5kS memory per channel...
What scope are you assuming this replaces? The TDS2000C?
It sounds like they are the (unicorn) target market who already own a battery Tek scope, and want a replacement... except the old Tek battery scopes which were very competitive in their day:
TDS3000 500MHz 5GS/s 10k points
TPS2000 200MHz 2GS/s 2.5k points, isolated input channels
Its that last point, a scope with isolated channels is a compelling thing. This new Tek 2 is not, nothing special or interesting to make it stand out.
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Maybe they realised that having advanced triggers that catch a glitch 100% is better than any waveform update rate figure. Remember that high waveform update rates is something that has been hyped by Keysight. IMHO it is not an important number at all.
But if you don't know what the glitch looks like how can you trigger on it ? My old 90's TDS784A with Instavu could see those glitches no problem and then you could set your trigger to catch them ;)
cheers
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Perhaps this new Tek 2 scope is just a rehash of there TBS scope ? Why build it from scratch ? just add a touch screen and put it in a new box and add a a battery ?
https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes/tbs2000 (https://www.tek.com/en/products/oscilloscopes/tbs2000)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL1t-ZbG3pA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL1t-ZbG3pA)
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Me neither - 99% of the time you're using a x10, and if you need anything else, you're fully aware of it and it's no big deal to select the probe manually. Conversely I have had times where a bad connection on a probe ring caused some puzzlement over wierd amplitude readings
I like the Tekprobe interface on my older TDS scopes a lot. In addition to standard 10X probes I also have a couple of different HV differential probes and it's really nice to just be able to plug it in and the scope knows what's there. I wouldn't want to give this up, although there are lots of other ways similar functionality could be achieved these days.
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It sounds like they are the (unicorn) target market who already own a battery Tek scope, and want a replacement... except the old Tek battery scopes which were very competitive in their day:
TDS3000 500MHz 5GS/s 10k points
TPS2000 200MHz 2GS/s 2.5k points, isolated input channels
Its that last point, a scope with isolated channels is a compelling thing. This new Tek 2 is not, nothing special or interesting to make it stand out.
I have a TDS3000 and absolutely love it, it's a joy to use, although the memory depth is a bit low by modern standards. It's a shame they don't make something quite like those anymore, although by the later days of the TDS3000C series the price was obscene for an instrument that had been in production that long.
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It sounds like they are the (unicorn) target market who already own a battery Tek scope, and want a replacement... except the old Tek battery scopes which were very competitive in their day:
TDS3000 500MHz 5GS/s 10k points
TPS2000 200MHz 2GS/s 2.5k points, isolated input channels
Its that last point, a scope with isolated channels is a compelling thing. This new Tek 2 is not, nothing special or interesting to make it stand out.
I have a TDS3000 and absolutely love it, it's a joy to use, although the memory depth is a bit low by modern standards. It's a shame they don't make something quite like those anymore, although by the later days of the TDS3000C series the price was obscene for an instrument that had been in production that long.
I used TDS3000's plenty in work, a good scope for the era with a not-slow ui. Also, they had intensity grading..... ;)
Something like that with serial trigger/decode and 1M or 10M of memory would have been a reasonable upgrade/refresh. Tek DPO4000s (released 2006) did come to that but the UI slowed down when loaded up.
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although by the later days of the TDS3000C series the price was obscene for an instrument that had been in production that long.
They'll still sell you a refurbished TDS3012C (100MHz, 2 channels) for $5500. :o
https://www.tek.com/en/buy/encore/category/oscilloscope (https://www.tek.com/en/buy/encore/category/oscilloscope)
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I'm wondering if the 2 series puts up a better show on wfm/s in segmented ("FastFrame") mode? And what the 3 series "run mode" performance is if ">280000 wfm/s" is in fact a segmented mode specification?
That would suck if it is in segmented mode. Can anyone confirm?
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IOW: high waveform update rates are highly overrated.
Overrated, perhaps, but I find a reasonably good update rate combined with color grading and medium persistence to be a very good way to find certain types of abnormalities that might be very, very difficult to trigger on even if you already knew they were there. This is one of the capabilities that for me puts the $500 Siglent SDS1104X-E into the outstanding value category. I can't imagine paying good money for a pro scope that doesn't do this as well. Of course, perhaps the Tek can do it and it just takes a slightly different approach or something. The persistence is clearly very short in the video and no color grading is used. I'd be glad to check it out if Tek wants so send me an a evaluation copy...
Persistence isn't going to help you if the scope doesn't capture the glitch in the waveform to begin with, and that's what's happening here. A slower waveform capture rate means less statistical chance of actually sampling the glitch. If oyu have captured it then you can indeed use persistance to ensure that you are better able to see it visually.
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Please note that in my video the scope catches (triggers on) the runt events just fine even when the event never shows up in the screen during regular edge trigger mode. Even though the update rate is slow, the triggering does not seem to be limited by it.
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Here's an exercise to search for a glitch that could be spotted on the display but not captured until everything was correctly set. Search settings were transferred to the trigger and then we not only triggered correctly on the glitch but could also see how many there were on the display at any timebase setting.....with a $500 scope.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717)
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Persistence isn't going to help you if the scope doesn't capture the glitch in the waveform to begin with, and that's what's happening here.
I agree with the first part--and using your test the Siglent SDS1104X-E has 10-15k wfms/s actual throughput, with the burst rate up to 22k and about 15ms dead time every 50ms. Its not a million wfms/s, but it is pretty good at even rare glitches. But in your video you note a little flicker or glitch on the Tek that doesn't show up very well and I'd want to know if the persistence or color grading settings could do a decent job of making it show up with just standard edge triggering.
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I wonder if maybe in Dave's update rate shootout video, the holdoff was accidentally turned on? It may also behave that way due to immature firmware. The inability to decouple record length from horizontal scale indicates that the firmware needs work.
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Persistence isn't going to help you if the scope doesn't capture the glitch in the waveform to begin with, and that's what's happening here.
I agree with the first part--and using your test the Siglent SDS1104X-E has 10-15k wfms/s actual throughput, with the burst rate up to 22k and about 15ms dead time every 50ms. Its not a million wfms/s, but it is pretty good at even rare glitches. But in your video you note a little flicker or glitch on the Tek that doesn't show up very well and I'd want to know if the persistence or color grading settings could do a decent job of making it show up with just standard edge triggering.
I happen to show that here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jDRH-6IvZc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jDRH-6IvZc)
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I wonder if maybe in Dave's update rate shootout video, the holdoff was accidentally turned on?
Yes, but it was only 2.2us so I could get a stable display.
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FWIW there's a nice video showing the new Micsig in use here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-new-oscilloscopes-on-website/msg4228507/#msg4228507 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-new-oscilloscopes-on-website/msg4228507/#msg4228507)
(...just so you can compare UI, etc., with this new Tek. The Tek will certainly have more features).
Note that it has auto-probe detection. :P
There doesn't seem to be much difference between this and the existing blue Micsigs, mostly color and little joysticks. If you prefer rotary knobs to joysticks then get the existing model. OTOH notice how little he actually needs to touch the joysticks in the entire video.
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I happen to show that here:
I don't see any intensity variation--is this scope not DPO or color graded? Or is that somewhere in the settings?
I think you should put the Combiscope into the digital mode and do an actual head-to-head comparison of their glitch capturing capabilities. >:D
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FWIW there's a nice video showing the new Micsig in use here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-new-oscilloscopes-on-website/msg4228507/#msg4228507 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-new-oscilloscopes-on-website/msg4228507/#msg4228507)
(...just so you can compare UI, etc., with this new Tek. The Tek will certainly have more features).
Note that it has auto-probe detection. :P
There doesn't seem to be much difference between this and the existing blue Micsigs, mostly color and little joysticks. If you prefer rotary knobs to joysticks then get the existing model. OTOH notice how little he actually needs to touch the joysticks in the entire video.
For years I have been willing to give Micsigs a try (lack of funds unfortunately are very real).
The UI on this scope is quite good and responsive; The cursors at 25:40 and the trigger setting at 28:00 are incredibly smooth - it would give Tek a run for its money. Also, the text and hex decoding display are quite interesting, despite the bugs - which Micsig directly addressed in the comments on the video. Apart from Keysight (and perhaps R&S), which seems to be paying attention to the independent folks in the new media, I haven't seen Tek come down from their ivory tower and provide a comment on a random video from a lone guy (they might have, but I haven't seen it yet).
My fingers have much less control with finger-operated joysticks when compared to rotary buttons, but they have one more degree of freedom and can be much more versatile - not to mention this can be a real trendsetter, since the younger generations are much more familiar with those due to the gaming consoles - and it has real buttons, which are great to switch channels.
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It doesn't have zone triggers... scopes much less expensive come with it... And that is useful feature I use all the time..
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How is this thing ever going to catch runt pulses ? or glitches ? it almost looks like they are doing software triggering ...
that the screen freezes when you are zooming on or out, ok , but not when you change trigger level ! if i slide that trigger level up or down the machine should keep capturing .. that's how you seek out glitches in the first place. play with the trigger level until it traps something that is not normal. you do not know what you are looking for in the first place. it is an abnormality. so you need to bank on repetitive , fast and reliable acquisition to fish for it. This scope is sleeping 90% of its time , and completely dead if you do anything on screen.
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They have a powerful FPGA and multicore processor. why is this not handled in the hardware fabric ?
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The acquisition system should run independent of the visualization system.
The pattern of measured triggers indicates that it is operating with segmented memory. So the acquisition hardware triggers and records separate short acquisition records until the total acquisition memory is filled, and then all of the records in the acquisition memory are processed by the CPU which is where the long delay between bursts of acquisitions occur.
So the acquisition system runs independently of the visualization system, but not at the same time. (1) This is equivalent to "Fast Frame" on the old TDS series of oscilloscopes and what modern oscilloscopes call segmented memory. Having them operate at the same time for gapless triggering requires double buffering, and requires the CPU to keep up with the acquisition system which is not easy; how much CPU is required to digest more than 1 GB/second per channel? It is a lot. Some modern DSOs manage it but they have massive CPU processing resources.
Personally I would rather have the acquisition hardware deliver histograms to the CPU when gapless acquisition is required, which is more like the old TDS "Insta View" or "Digital Phosphor" mode where the display record and acquisition record were the same thing. This minimizes the memory transfer and processing demands on the CPU with only a small demand on the hardware.
(1) They may be operating at the same time, but the acquisition hardware stops while the acquisition record is transferred to the CPU.
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If I had to chose I'd rather have x10 probe detection than 50 ohm input.
are you saying this thing cannot detect a 1:10 probe ? that would be another colossal mistake
It has no probe detection hardware. The excuse they gave is to make it thin, but I think that is bullshit. The old TDS hardware used a flexible printed circuit laminate to add the required connections.
For the same reason I think using membrane buttons on the front panel was about cost and not depth or environmental reasons.
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In my experiments I showed that a pass through 50-Ohm termination can get around the lack of input termination. It is not the most convenient solution, but it works.
Doesn't the 14pF input capacitance cause VSWR issues, or did you insert a 3dB pad to minimise them?
Most oscilloscopes up to 500 MHz have the same high impedance input capacitance in both 50 ohm and 1 megohm input modes. It makes little practical difference up to at least 300 MHz even with an external 50 ohm feedthrough termination.
There are some exceptions like the old Tektronix 485 which used a transmission line relay to switch the input between the 1 megohm amplifier and the 50 ohm amplifier, but that was because at the time they could not make a 1 megohm input amplifier that operated faster than 250 MHz.
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If I had to chose I'd rather have x10 probe detection than 50 ohm input.
are you saying this thing cannot detect a 1:10 probe ? that would be another colossal mistake
It has no probe detection hardware. The excuse they gave is to make it thin, but I think that is bullshit. The old TDS hardware used a flexible printed circuit laminate to add the required connections.
But that 'standard' has been abandoned by Tektronix a long time ago. Adding their current probe interface would add a lot of cost (also for powering probes). If you watch the interview with Dave and the guy from Tektronix, you'll notice that Tektronix has been interviewing their customers about what they want from a low cost oscilloscope. A probe interface / probe detection appearantly wasn't high on the list. And I tend to agree; the simple ring around a BNC is as good as useless. Either have nothing or go all the way.
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Dave: does the button have any tactile feel at all? Can you tell if there is a snap dome behind it?
There is definite sharp snap like it's a dome. And you can feel the back pressure as you release it, so feels like a metal dome to me. But could just be a really snappy feeling embossed membrane.
The smaller buttons seem to require more force than the larger wide button which work across most of the width, so not a round dome under them.
I did not see in the videos, but when the oscilloscope is on the stand, can you activate the buttons without pushing it over or sliding it? Or do you have to reach around and grip it with your hand to keep it from moving? I noticed that the buttons are all placed close to the edge allowing this.
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If I had to chose I'd rather have x10 probe detection than 50 ohm input.
are you saying this thing cannot detect a 1:10 probe ? that would be another colossal mistake
It has no probe detection hardware. The excuse they gave is to make it thin, but I think that is bullshit. The old TDS hardware used a flexible printed circuit laminate to add the required connections.
But that 'standard' has been abandoned by Tektronix a long time ago. Adding their current probe interface would add a lot of cost (also for powering probes). If you watch the interview with Dave and the guy from Tektronix, you'll notice that Tektronix has been interviewing their customers about what they want from a low cost oscilloscope. A probe interface / probe detection appearantly wasn't high on the list. And I tend to agree; the simple ring around a BNC is as good as useless. Either have nothing or go all the way.
But they gave the reason of it adding too much to the thickness.
Maybe they should not have abandoned such an easy to implement interface that added so much.
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Dave: does the button have any tactile feel at all? Can you tell if there is a snap dome behind it?
There is definite sharp snap like it's a dome. And you can feel the back pressure as you release it, so feels like a metal dome to me. But could just be a really snappy feeling embossed membrane.
The smaller buttons seem to require more force than the larger wide button which work across most of the width, so not a round dome under them.
I did not see in the videos, but when the oscilloscope is on the stand, can you activate the buttons without pushing it over or sliding it? Or do you have to reach around and grip it with your hand to keep it from moving? I noticed that the buttons are all placed close to the edge allowing this.
Its in Daves earliest vid, with the sticky rubber on the base, the buttons can be pressed with no sliding.
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It doesn't have zone triggers... scopes much less expensive come with it... And that is useful feature I use all the time..
Well it does have mask testing, which is around "half" the functionality of "zone" triggering:
https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing (https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing)
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I did not see in the videos, but when the oscilloscope is on the stand, can you activate the buttons without pushing it over or sliding it? Or do you have to reach around and grip it with your hand to keep it from moving? I noticed that the buttons are all placed close to the edge allowing this.
That's shown in one of Teks short videos on the scope:
https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---top-5-reasons-you-need-one (https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---top-5-reasons-you-need-one)
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It doesn't have zone triggers... scopes much less expensive come with it... And that is useful feature I use all the time..
Well it does have mask testing, which is around "half" the functionality of "zone" triggering:
https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing (https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing)
Would that equate to 25% of zone triggering when 2 trigger zones were used ?
I doubt it.
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It doesn't have zone triggers... scopes much less expensive come with it... And that is useful feature I use all the time..
Well it does have mask testing, which is around "half" the functionality of "zone" triggering:
https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing (https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing)
Would that equate to 25% of zone triggering when 2 trigger zones were used ?
I doubt it.
... depends if the zones are set for positive/negative masking, could equally be 100% or 0% which is why I said "half". "zone" triggers are a refinement/extension of mask testing with more features, absolutely comparable.
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During the event I asked them multiple times about the waveform update rate and they didn't answer that question. When watching Dave's first impression video, I found out why, the Tek person talking to Dave in that video said it was something like 5k waveforms per second, then followed with something like "it's not a fast scope" :palm:
for 2k$ :o their competition being the RTB2000, which can do 300k, why is Tektronix so far behind in this regard? how fast do their 3 and up series update?
The low performance is consistent with market segmentation and a portable design which is power limited.
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If I had to chose I'd rather have x10 probe detection than 50 ohm input.
are you saying this thing cannot detect a 1:10 probe ? that would be another colossal mistake
It has no probe detection hardware. The excuse they gave is to make it thin, but I think that is bullshit. The old TDS hardware used a flexible printed circuit laminate to add the required connections.
For the same reason I think using membrane buttons on the front panel was about cost and not depth or environmental reasons.
all they need is a metal ring or , like you said a small flex. probe detection is a single pin around the bnc
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It has no probe detection hardware. The excuse they gave is to make it thin, but I think that is bullshit. The old TDS hardware used a flexible printed circuit laminate to add the required connections.
For the same reason I think using membrane buttons on the front panel was about cost and not depth or environmental reasons.
all they need is a metal ring or , like you said a small flex. probe detection is a single pin around the bnc
Detection of probe attenuation for the readout might be obsolete, but powering an active or differential probe sure is not. Of course Tektronix could hardly support their obsolete but more suitable older probe interface, so they painted themselves into a corner there.
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It has no probe detection hardware. The excuse they gave is to make it thin, but I think that is bullshit. The old TDS hardware used a flexible printed circuit laminate to add the required connections.
For the same reason I think using membrane buttons on the front panel was about cost and not depth or environmental reasons.
all they need is a metal ring or , like you said a small flex. probe detection is a single pin around the bnc
Detection of probe attenuation for the readout might be obsolete, but powering an active or differential probe sure is not. Of course Tektronix could hardly support their obsolete but more suitable older probe interface, so they painted themselves into a corner there.
It's a pity that there was never a cross-manufacturer standard for probe interfaces. Nowadays USB is the obvious way to power a probe as pretty much all scopes from the last 10+ years have a USB A connector
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It doesn't have zone triggers... scopes much less expensive come with it... And that is useful feature I use all the time..
Well it does have mask testing, which is around "half" the functionality of "zone" triggering:
https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing (https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing)
Beauty of zone triggers is that it is easy and fast to use. Most of the time you can just set one of advanced and conditional triggers and get same result. But zone trigger is by definition one standard trigger + a conditional fly/no fly zone that you simply drag on the screen..
Mask testing is something else, and is more connected with that glitch hunting discussion we have elswhere..
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Detection of probe attenuation for the readout might be obsolete, but powering an active or differential probe sure is not. Of course Tektronix could hardly support their obsolete but more suitable older probe interface, so they painted themselves into a corner there.
It's a pity that there was never a cross-manufacturer standard for probe interfaces. Nowadays USB is the obvious way to power a probe as pretty much all scopes from the last 10+ years have a USB A connector
Probe attenuation readout was the only thing supported by multiple manufacturers. It might be a coincidence, but Tektronix stopped supporting it not long after they sold off their cable manufacturing infrastructure in the 1990s so could not longer make their own probe cable with the extra wire for the readout connection.
USB might not be quite as good as the LEMO connector for probe power that Tektronix originally used, but their new DSO also lacks any USB sockets on the front panel. Lack of support for active probes and 50 ohm termination seems odd for a 500 MHz DSO, but they got the bandwidth for free.
I happen to show that here:
DSOs should have a real advantage for glitch hunting, but as you showed, some are much better than others. The trend as processor performance has increased is to do the glitch hunting during post-processing, but this Tektronix DSO apparently does not even support that.
Analog CRTs with higher acceleration voltage show rare events better, but at a completely different level of performance, the microchannel plate CRTs used in the Tektronix 2467, 7104, and 11302 would show the glitches with no problem at all at normal intensity, and that was one of their big applications. A variable persistence (but not bistable!) analog storage CRTs could do it also.
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Well it does have mask testing, which is around "half" the functionality of "zone" triggering:
https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing (https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing)
But mask testing is done during post-processing (at least on this DSO) so it does not help capture the glitch and you still have to wait. It is not a replacement for low blind time or glitch triggering done during acquisition.
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I happen to show that here:
This Tek uses double-tap gestures to do things in the UI? :o
What kind of idiot would do that...? :palm:
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This Tek uses double-tap gestures to do things in the UI? :o
What kind of idiot would do that...? :palm:
Have you ever tried the new Tek UI? In my opinion its good. On the Series 4 at work i tend to use touch display. On my Siglent at home i find myself still more using the knobs and buttons than touch UI. So at least for me Tek has done something right.
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Have you ever tried the new Tek UI? In my opinion its good. On the Series 4 at work i tend to use touch display. On my Siglent at home i find myself still more using the knobs and buttons than touch UI. So at least for me Tek has done something right.
Maybe so but it's still a complete dog's dinner.
Take the dialog that pops up when you double-tap the screen:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1509013;image)
It's a complete mess of dropdowns mixed with multi-choice buttons for no good reason and there's lots of little things wrong with it:
a) "Waveform Style" and "Graticule Style" - one line of text, "Waveform Intensity" and "Graticule Intensity" - two lines. Why?
b) Why is the "Waveform Intensity" box wider than the "Graticule Intensity" box?
c) Why are the Graticule settings in a dialog called "Waveform View"? Maybe the dialog could be called "Display settings"? You did double-tap the "display" to get to it.
d) Why are some things in drop-downs and others not? Dropdowns need a tap top open the menu, then you have to look at it and find the entry, then another tap to select it.
e) What on earth is the point of a numerical box with a percentage in it? What happens when you tap it?
f) When you tap the persistence time it only highlights the text (as if it's expecting a keyboard to be attached??). You have to double-tap it to get the on-screen keyboard. How many people would have a physical keyboard, why can't it open the on-screen keyboard directly?
g) Does that pointless mouse cursor follow you around all the time or is it only there when a mouse is connected?
About that on-screen keyboard for entering a time:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1509049;image)
(excuse the crudity of the Windows Paint job)
Here's the same display settings on a Micsig. They're not hidden behind a double-tap, you can find them under the "Display" menu:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1509031;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1509037;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1509025;image)
You touch the name of the thing you want to adjust and the settings appear below. No dropdowns so selections are a single touch instead of two. Brightness settings are done via a slider.
It has a logical flow to it and the user interface elements they used are faster to use and match the types of values being entered.
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An UI with absolute consistency is not an easy achievement (several open source applications still struggle with that)... But it is quite similar to its big brothers MDO3 and up. In this case, it is most probably a case of retaining the Tek feel of prior generations, despite the strange mix of typing/tapping/double-tapping and so on.
About that on-screen keyboard for entering a time:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1509049;image)
(excuse the crudity of the Windows Paint job)
The on-screen is very similar to the physical keyboards of VNAs and Spectrum Analyzers - they were probably going for the familiar design. But I agree the backspace placement is quite weird.
Here's the same display settings on a Micsig.
I found the Micsig has quite a logical and functional UI from the video you posted before.
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The onscreen keyboard is standard on most devices. What you don't want is a flurry of different keyboard layouts. BTW Fungus' proposed layout is missing the min & max buttons. These come in handy regulary!
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It doesn't have zone triggers... scopes much less expensive come with it... And that is useful feature I use all the time..
Well it does have mask testing, which is around "half" the functionality of "zone" triggering:
https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing (https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing)
Beauty of zone triggers is that it is easy and fast to use. Most of the time you can just set one of advanced and conditional triggers and get same result. But zone trigger is by definition one standard trigger + a conditional fly/no fly zone that you simply drag on the screen..
Mask testing is something else, and is more connected with that glitch hunting discussion we have elswhere..
Did you watch the video? The demo is adding a no-go zone to an existing trigger by drawing a box on the screen. Exactly what you said, if zone trigger requires both go and no-go zones is a matter of definition which is why I didn't say it was exactly the same as "zone" triggers from other implementations.
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I happen to show that here:
This Tek uses double-tap gestures to do things in the UI? :o
Yep, like a text box to enter a number.
And no velocity control on the knobs for number entry either.
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I think you should put the Combiscope into the digital mode and do an actual head-to-head comparison of their glitch capturing capabilities. >:D
Like other DSOs of that generation, like the Tektronix 2232 and 2440, the FlukeCombiscope will perform poorly in a glitch capture test. Peak detection will pick up the glitch at any sample rate with no problem, but the waveform acquisition rate is only 10s per second so there is considerable blind time. I do not think Tektronix rectified this in their DSOs until releasing their TDS 744A/784A DPOs with "InstaVu" in 1995. Previous to this they relied on their MCP analog oscilloscopes for applications requiring glitch detection.
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This Tek uses double-tap gestures to do things in the UI? :o
Yep, like a text box to enter a number.
I'd love to know what the percentage inputs for brightness do when you touch them. Does it pop up some sort of a slider or does it make you double-tap then type in a number?
Does it do anything at all apart from highlight the number so you can twist a knob?
What you don't want is a flurry of different keyboard layouts.
Why not? So long as they're consistent with each other. At least grey out the buttons that make no sense.
I just watched Dave's video again and I saw that the Tek input box defaults to "ms". If you want to type in 10s you have to type "10" then press a button marked "None" to remove the 'ms' part. :palm: :palm:
Watch it here, along with Dave's mental process as he uses it:
https://youtu.be/3jDRH-6IvZc?t=463 (https://youtu.be/3jDRH-6IvZc?t=463)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jDRH-6IvZc&t=463 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jDRH-6IvZc&t=463)
(skip to time 7:40 - I can't seem to get youtube to go there automatically)
PS: What happens if you type a negative time or a stupidly large time?
BTW Fungus' proposed layout is missing the min & max buttons. These come in handy regulary!
It was just a quick mockup. :-//
FWIW here's what Micsigs do - they add a line of numbers underneath the setting with a range of values from 100ms to 10s that you swipe left/right (with inertia-flick) to select one, or... you can twist the knob to step through the values:
Note that you get instant visual feedback as the values change. The real sin of the Tek keypad interface is that you have to type a number then press enter to see any changes on screen. What if you type "5s" as an initial guess then discover you need a bit more? I really hope it does something sensible if you just highlight the box then twist the knob, although forcing you to constantly switch between screen/knob is another can of UI worms.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-next-gen-tektronix-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=1509310;image)
It's not perfect (I would have made it a few pixels taller for fat fingers and I can't set it to "5.73 seconds" if I really want to) but it's a lot faster than double-tapping an input box then being forced to type in a number when what you usually want is just, "A bit more/less of that, please!".
(would you ever type "5.73 seconds" anyway?)
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It doesn't have zone triggers... scopes much less expensive come with it... And that is useful feature I use all the time..
Well it does have mask testing, which is around "half" the functionality of "zone" triggering:
https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing (https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing)
Beauty of zone triggers is that it is easy and fast to use. Most of the time you can just set one of advanced and conditional triggers and get same result. But zone trigger is by definition one standard trigger + a conditional fly/no fly zone that you simply drag on the screen..
Mask testing is something else, and is more connected with that glitch hunting discussion we have elswhere..
Did you watch the video? The demo is adding a no-go zone to an existing trigger by drawing a box on the screen. Exactly what you said, if zone trigger requires both go and no-go zones is a matter of definition which is why I didn't say it was exactly the same as "zone" triggers from other implementations.
I was confused about what video you are talking about.. Yes the Tek video, no I didn't so I went and did..
And I agree that making simple rectangular mask is quite easy to make and I understand now what you meant.
For glitch capture on repetitive signal, mask is better than persistence, because it will at least give you some statistical info, and on many scopes it can save the capture in question....
But largest difference is that is NOT a trigger. With zone trigger you can use segments and history and all other measurements functions. And is very easy to use and feels very natural....
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It doesn't have zone triggers... scopes much less expensive come with it... And that is useful feature I use all the time..
Well it does have mask testing, which is around "half" the functionality of "zone" triggering:
https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing (https://www.tek.com/en/video/how-to/2-series-mso---mask-testing)
Beauty of zone triggers is that it is easy and fast to use. Most of the time you can just set one of advanced and conditional triggers and get same result. But zone trigger is by definition one standard trigger + a conditional fly/no fly zone that you simply drag on the screen..
Mask testing is something else, and is more connected with that glitch hunting discussion we have elswhere..
Did you watch the video? The demo is adding a no-go zone to an existing trigger by drawing a box on the screen. Exactly what you said, if zone trigger requires both go and no-go zones is a matter of definition which is why I didn't say it was exactly the same as "zone" triggers from other implementations.
I was confused about what video you are talking about.. Yes the Tek video, no I didn't so I went and did..
And I agree that making simple rectangular mask is quite easy to make and I understand now what you meant.
For glitch capture on repetitive signal, mask is better than persistence, because it will at least give you some statistical info, and on many scopes it can save the capture in question....
But largest difference is that is NOT a trigger. With zone trigger you can use segments and history and all other measurements functions. And is very easy to use and feels very natural....
It is a second stage trigger, that can stop the auqisition or record out the matching instances. Its not a segmented or high speed complex trigger, but still makes that initial step from stable waveform to picking out arbitrary shaped details.
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Do like the looks of it and the grey-black background design suits it well.
big 10.1" also nice but TFT.. hmm..but at +4 pounds.. one-handed use certainly gonna be a challenge without something locking your hand-wrist.
the Micsig STO-C is just under 4 pounds also, and that unit you can use it one-handed, but you need to rely on that PU-leather strap for your left hand to hold it somewhat comfortably while interfacing with the right.
But I do like these tablet scopes, that have struck a balance between mobility (so you can easily take it to a device and not vice versa), and a scope that can also double as a bench scope without driving you nuts.
The secondary specs.. are somewhat limited at the prices they are asking when comparing to alternatives, but it is a TEK, so that's more or less the norm.
but gladly they kept knobs.. seems Micsig has dropped that on the latest 2022 STO-tablet revisions for some small 4way joysticks... don't like that.. I need those knobs, even though the user per say' don't really need it, - on an interface like the Micsig, where you can use, a wireless mouse, or touch, or even apps for iOS, Android or Windows... I still kept coming back to using those knobs.
Are the screen bright, so you can use it outdoors.. on the Micsig.. it peaked at 415nits if I measured a blank paper in the browser with a lightmeter..
https://i.imgur.com/uDF7Nj9.jpg
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Are the screen bright, so you can use it outdoors.. on the Micsig.. it peaked at 415nits if I measured a blank paper in the browser with a lightmeter..
The glare would stop me from using it outdoors, and likely stop me from using it indoors as well.
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Are the screen bright, so you can use it outdoors.. on the Micsig.. it peaked at 415nits if I measured a blank paper in the browser with a lightmeter..
The glare would stop me from using it outdoors, and likely stop me from using it indoors as well.
Or one can take a Depp-nap and don't do anything, if you are bothered by "glare", otherwise get a glare-undermining screen protector.
more often than not, they are included from scratch, at least with the Micsig (if I recall correctly) but it hasn't been a problem when I've been using it outdoors, so saw no need to try it out.
- and you can blow it up indoors to your heart's desire with its HDMI.
Here on a big OLED-monitor with LG's quite potent antiglare coating.(and those waveforms do look good on an inky black OLED background)
https://i.imgur.com/k29uitf.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/k29uitf.jpg)
or connect it with its wireless app to an android projector out in the bathroom/toilet and watch the waveform-bouncing on the bathroom-wall while laying a dump.
(its all good :-// :phew: )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlkgdtkoAeE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlkgdtkoAeE)
..
A heavy fellow with its battery pack (MSO22)
Weight
Instrument only
1.8 kg (4 lbs)
Instrument with battery pack
3.2 kg (7 lbs) – one battery
3.6 kg (8 lbs) – two batteries
---
Color palettes
Normal and inverted for screen captures
Individual waveform colors are user-selectable
color intensity grading??
gets expensive fast and seems to be upgrade depended.. entry model MSO24 (4ch 70mhz) from Farnell Denmark.
70MHz 3.5k USD / 100Mhz = 4.1K USD / 200MHz 5k USD / 500MHz 13.5K USD.
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500 MHz, $13.5K, and no 50-ohm input selection?
(https://wompampsupport.azureedge.net/fetchimage?siteId=7575&v=2&jpgQuality=100&width=700&url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Fnewsfeed%2F000%2F129%2F577%2FHow%2BAbout%2BNo.jpg)
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color intensity grading??
Doesn't seem to be present, which is pretty unique for a 3[000] segment scope (don't think people were too surprised that the TBS2000 didn't have it).
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500 MHz, $13.5K, and no 50-ohm input selection?
(https://wompampsupport.azureedge.net/fetchimage?siteId=7575&v=2&jpgQuality=100&width=700&url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Fnewsfeed%2F000%2F129%2F577%2FHow%2BAbout%2BNo.jpg)
But... but... $12 relays! If you multiply it by 100, it's a tenth of the cost! Can the treasury bear such an expense?
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Are the screen bright, so you can use it outdoors.. on the Micsig.. it peaked at 415nits if I measured a blank paper in the browser with a lightmeter..
The glare would stop me from using it outdoors, and likely stop me from using it indoors as well.
They come with a matte screen protector in the box. It works.
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I just watched this video from TSP and I think this scope has a lot of potential. I like the way it can run from a PC and quite well might I add. For someone who is used to using a mouse this is quite an advantage rather than fiddling around with buttons and knobs. If you are just focused on update rate and nothing else then it would be easy to dismiss this instrument and find fault with it but as a whole package there is a lot of potential once they get the firmware stable. And like Dave said you can still capture rare events with suitable trigger and persistence. Depending on price it maybe worth looking at.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIrn9DuOoiM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIrn9DuOoiM)
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For someone who is used to using a mouse this is quite an advantage rather than fiddling around with buttons and knobs.
Lots of oscilloscopes can use a mouse and/or do remote access these days. No need to pay Tek prices for that.
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I just watched this video from TSP and I think this scope has a lot of potential.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIrn9DuOoiM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIrn9DuOoiM)
Looks like it has an awful lot of features once you start digging.
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I just watched this video from TSP and I think this scope has a lot of potential.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIrn9DuOoiM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIrn9DuOoiM)
Looks like it has an awful lot of features once you start digging.
What do you mean by that? What lot of features, what does it have that even DS1000Z or Siglent SDS1104E-X doesn't?
Rigol MSO5000 has many more features than it and also SDS2000X+ ..
All of them for fraction of price.
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Looks like it has an awful lot of features once you start digging.
What do you mean by that? What lot of features, what does it have that even DS1000Z or Siglent SDS1104E-X doesn't?
Rigol MSO5000 has many more features than it and also SDS2000X+ ..
All of them for fraction of price.
Do the Rigol and Siglent have the advanced triggering shown by Shahriar? I don't recall about this feature being present in the entry level models...
The other two more advanced have mor features.
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What do you mean by that? What lot of features, what does it have that even DS1000Z or Siglent SDS1104E-X doesn't?
Rigol MSO5000 has many more features than it and also SDS2000X+ ..
All of them for fraction of price.
Do the Rigol and Siglent have the advanced triggering shown by Shahriar? I don't recall about this feature being present in the entry level models...
Can they save a sceenshot when a trigger condition is met then continue capturing afterwards?
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What do you mean by that? What lot of features, what does it have that even DS1000Z or Siglent SDS1104E-X doesn't?
Rigol MSO5000 has many more features than it and also SDS2000X+ ..
All of them for fraction of price.
Do the Rigol and Siglent have the advanced triggering shown by Shahriar? I don't recall about this feature being present in the entry level models...
Can they save a sceenshot when a trigger condition is met then continue capturing afterwards?
It should be easy for the Tek, since the blind time is alread so massive anyways... 😝
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Looks like it has an awful lot of features once you start digging.
What do you mean by that? What lot of features, what does it have that even DS1000Z or Siglent SDS1104E-X doesn't?
Rigol MSO5000 has many more features than it and also SDS2000X+ ..
All of them for fraction of price.
Do the Rigol and Siglent have the advanced triggering shown by Shahriar? I don't recall about this feature being present in the entry level models...
The other two more advanced have mor features.
That Tek has no advanced triggering features..
1000Z
Edge Trigger
Pulse Trigger
Slope Trigger
Video Trigger
Pattern Trigger
Duration Trigger
TimeOut Trigger
Runt Trigger
Window Trigger
Delay Trigger
Setup/Hold Trigger
Nth Edge Trigger
RS232 Trigger
I2C Trigger
SPI Trigger
MSO5000 series oscilloscope provides the following trigger types.
Edge Trigger
Pulse Trigger
Slope Trigger
Video Trigger
Pattern Trigger
Duration Trigger
Timeout Trigger
Window Trigger
Delay Trigger
Setup/Hold Trigger
Nth Edge Trigger
RS232 Trigger (Option)
I2C Trigger (Option)
SPI Trigger (Option)
CAN Trigger (Option)
FlexRay Trigger (Option)
LIN Trigger (Option)
I2S Trigger (Option)
MIL-STD-1553 Trigger (Option)
2 zone trigger
SDS1104X-E:
Edge, Slope, Pulse Width, Window, Runt, Interval, Dropout, Pattern, Video
Serial Trigger and decoder (Std) IIC, SPI, UART, CAN, LIN
SDS 2000X+:
Edge, Slope, Pulse, Window, Runt, Interval, Dropout, Pattern, Video and Serial
Serial trigger and decode Standard: I2C, SPI, UART, CAN, LIN
Optional: CAN FD, FlexRay, I2S, MIL-STD-1553B, SENT
2 zone trigger
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What do you mean by that? What lot of features, what does it have that even DS1000Z or Siglent SDS1104E-X doesn't?
Rigol MSO5000 has many more features than it and also SDS2000X+ ..
All of them for fraction of price.
Do the Rigol and Siglent have the advanced triggering shown by Shahriar? I don't recall about this feature being present in the entry level models...
Can they save a sceenshot when a trigger condition is met then continue capturing afterwards?
Save a screenshot on every trigger ?
Rigols, no, but they can save to segments (recording in their parlance). MSO5000 can also save screenshot on pass/fail mask test..
SDS1000X-E saves EVERY trigger to history buffers..
So does SDS200X+. And can also save screenshot on pass/fail mask test..
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Do the Rigol and Siglent have the advanced triggering shown by Shahriar? I don't recall about this feature being present in the entry level models...
I don't think Tek is worried about head-to-head bang-for-buck comparisons with upstarts, but it would actually be interesting to do that. I'm sure each will have things the other does not, but they probably both have the modern basics covered. The SDS1000X-E series has a decent set of triggers.
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Do the Rigol and Siglent have the advanced triggering shown by Shahriar? I don't recall about this feature being present in the entry level models...
I don't think Tek is worried about head-to-head bang-for-buck comparisons with upstarts, but it would actually be interesting to do that. I'm sure each will have things the other does not, but they probably both have the modern basics covered. The SDS1000X-E series has a decent set of triggers.
My intention is not even to do "head-to-head bang-for-buck comparisons with upstarts". What I'm trying to say is that marketing here is plain misleading. These are not "benefits of advanced triggering" when inexpensive 1000 series scopes have same or better. They are simply pretending those don't exists and lying that what is mainstream with other manufacturers is somehow "advanced" on Tek scopes.
Fact that DS1000Z which is a cheap and now old scope has same set of triggers that Tek is pretending to be something special is embarrassing for Tek.
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Looks like it has an awful lot of features once you start digging.
What do you mean by that? What lot of features, what does it have that even DS1000Z or Siglent SDS1104E-X doesn't?
Rigol MSO5000 has many more features than it and also SDS2000X+ ..
All of them for fraction of price.
Do the Rigol and Siglent have the advanced triggering shown by Shahriar? I don't recall about this feature being present in the entry level models...
The other two more advanced have mor features.
That Tek has no advanced triggering features..
1000Z
Edge Trigger
Pulse Trigger
Slope Trigger
Video Trigger
Pattern Trigger
Duration Trigger
TimeOut Trigger
Runt Trigger
Window Trigger
Delay Trigger
Setup/Hold Trigger
Nth Edge Trigger
RS232 Trigger
I2C Trigger
SPI Trigger
MSO5000 series oscilloscope provides the following trigger types.
Edge Trigger
Pulse Trigger
Slope Trigger
Video Trigger
Pattern Trigger
Duration Trigger
Timeout Trigger
Window Trigger
Delay Trigger
Setup/Hold Trigger
Nth Edge Trigger
RS232 Trigger (Option)
I2C Trigger (Option)
SPI Trigger (Option)
CAN Trigger (Option)
FlexRay Trigger (Option)
LIN Trigger (Option)
I2S Trigger (Option)
MIL-STD-1553 Trigger (Option)
2 zone trigger
SDS1104X-E:
Edge, Slope, Pulse Width, Window, Runt, Interval, Dropout, Pattern, Video
Serial Trigger and decoder (Std) IIC, SPI, UART, CAN, LIN
SDS 2000X+:
Edge, Slope, Pulse, Window, Runt, Interval, Dropout, Pattern, Video and Serial
Serial trigger and decode Standard: I2C, SPI, UART, CAN, LIN
Optional: CAN FD, FlexRay, I2S, MIL-STD-1553B, SENT
2 zone trigger
Would you bother to compare with micsig, please?
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Would you bother to compare with micsig, please?
Just read the datasheet: https://www.saelig.com/supplier/micsig/sto1000-datasheet-saelig.pdf (https://www.saelig.com/supplier/micsig/sto1000-datasheet-saelig.pdf)
Support Edge, Pulse, Logic, N Edge, Runt, Slope, Timeout, Video and Serial trigger
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For someone who is used to using a mouse this is quite an advantage rather than fiddling around with buttons and knobs.
Lots of oscilloscopes can use a mouse and/or do remote access these days. No need to pay Tek prices for that.
Which ones allow you to plug the mouse directly into the scope via a USB port ? I'm not sure the Tek 2 allows that either but it would be handy.
cheers
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For someone who is used to using a mouse this is quite an advantage rather than fiddling around with buttons and knobs.
Lots of oscilloscopes can use a mouse and/or do remote access these days. No need to pay Tek prices for that.
Which ones allow you to plug the mouse directly into the scope via a USB port ? I'm not sure the Tek 2 allows that either but it would be handy.
cheers
Current Siglent DSO list:
SDS2000X Plus models
SDS2000X HD
SDS5000X
SDS6000A
All SSA Plus/SVA models
SNA5000A
More not jumping to mind ATM however most modern instruments with a touch screen also support at least a mouse and sometimes a keyboard too.
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Looks like it has an awful lot of features once you start digging.
What do you mean by that? What lot of features, what does it have that even DS1000Z or Siglent SDS1104E-X doesn't?
Rigol MSO5000 has many more features than it and also SDS2000X+ ..
All of them for fraction of price.
Do the Rigol and Siglent have the advanced triggering shown by Shahriar? I don't recall about this feature being present in the entry level models...
The other two more advanced have mor features.
That Tek has no advanced triggering features..
1000Z
Edge Trigger
Pulse Trigger
Slope Trigger
Video Trigger
Pattern Trigger
Duration Trigger
TimeOut Trigger
Runt Trigger
Window Trigger
Delay Trigger
Setup/Hold Trigger
Nth Edge Trigger
RS232 Trigger
I2C Trigger
SPI Trigger
MSO5000 series oscilloscope provides the following trigger types.
Edge Trigger
Pulse Trigger
Slope Trigger
Video Trigger
Pattern Trigger
Duration Trigger
Timeout Trigger
Window Trigger
Delay Trigger
Setup/Hold Trigger
Nth Edge Trigger
RS232 Trigger (Option)
I2C Trigger (Option)
SPI Trigger (Option)
CAN Trigger (Option)
FlexRay Trigger (Option)
LIN Trigger (Option)
I2S Trigger (Option)
MIL-STD-1553 Trigger (Option)
2 zone trigger
SDS1104X-E:
Edge, Slope, Pulse Width, Window, Runt, Interval, Dropout, Pattern, Video
Serial Trigger and decoder (Std) IIC, SPI, UART, CAN, LIN
SDS 2000X+:
Edge, Slope, Pulse, Window, Runt, Interval, Dropout, Pattern, Video and Serial
Serial trigger and decode Standard: I2C, SPI, UART, CAN, LIN
Optional: CAN FD, FlexRay, I2S, MIL-STD-1553B, SENT
2 zone trigger
Interesting. The Tek is a bit behind the DS1000Z and the SDS1104X-E:
Trigger types
Edge Positive, negative, or either slope on any channel.
Pulse Width Trigger on width of positive or negative pulses. Event can be time- or logic-qualified
Timeout Trigger on an event which remains high, low, or either, for a specified time period. Event can be logic-qualified
Runt Trigger on a pulse that crosses one threshold but fails to cross a second threshold before crossing the first again. Event can be time- or logic-qualified
Logic Trigger when logic pattern goes true, goes false, or occurs coincident with a clock edge. Pattern (AND, OR, NAND, NOR) specified for all input channels defined as high, low, or don't care. Logic pattern going true can be time-qualified
Setup/Hold Trigger on violations of both setup time and hold time between clock and data present on any input channels
Rise/Fall Trigger on pulse edge rates that are faster or slower than specified. Slope may be positive, negative, or either. Event can be logic-qualified
Parallel (with MSO option) Trigger on a parallel bus data value. Parallel bus can be from 1 to 20 bits (from the digital and analog channels) in size. Supports binary and hex radices
I2C (option) Trigger on start, repeated start, stop, missing ack, address (7 or 10 bit), data, or address and data on I2C buses up to 10 Mb/s
SPI (option) Trigger on slave select, idle time, or data (1-16 words) on SPI buses up to 20 Mb/s
RS-232/422/485/UART (option) Trigger on start bit, end of packet, data, and parity error up to 15 Mb/s
CAN (option) Trigger on start of frame, type of frame (data, remote, error, or overload), identifier, data, identifier and data, end of frame, missing ack, and bit stuff error on CAN buses up to 1 Mb/s
LIN (option) Trigger on sync, identifier, data, identifier and data, wakeup frame, sleep frame, and error on lin buses up to 1 Mb/s
SENT (option) Trigger on start of packet, fast channel status and data, slow channel message ID and data, and CRC errors
Source: Tek 2 datasheet (https://www.tek.com/en/datasheet/2-series-mso-mixed-signal-oscilloscope-datasheet)
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Would you bother to compare with micsig, please?
Just read the datasheet: https://www.saelig.com/supplier/micsig/sto1000-datasheet-saelig.pdf (https://www.saelig.com/supplier/micsig/sto1000-datasheet-saelig.pdf)
Support Edge, Pulse, Logic, N Edge, Runt, Slope, Timeout, Video and Serial trigger
I just read the data sheet for the Tek MSO-2 https://download.tek.com/datasheet/2SeriesMSO-Datasheet-EN-48W738570.pdf (https://download.tek.com/datasheet/2SeriesMSO-Datasheet-EN-48W738570.pdf) and it looks like it is way ahead on the sampling rate with 2.5 Gs/s for 2 channels and 1.25 Gs/s for all four channels. Whereas the MicSig are pretty coy about mentioning it at all and only talk about 1 Gs/s max for one channel. Looks like you only get 500Ms/s for 2 channels and 250Ms/s for all four channels :( I think the Tek wins hands down here.
cheers
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For someone who is used to using a mouse this is quite an advantage rather than fiddling around with buttons and knobs.
Lots of oscilloscopes can use a mouse and/or do remote access these days. No need to pay Tek prices for that.
Which ones allow you to plug the mouse directly into the scope via a USB port ? I'm not sure the Tek 2 allows that either but it would be handy.
cheers
Yes, mouse and keyboard can be used directly via the USB port(s). You can also use the mouse/keyboard on your computer when connected to the scope via the VNC Server.
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For someone who is used to using a mouse this is quite an advantage rather than fiddling around with buttons and knobs.
Lots of oscilloscopes can use a mouse and/or do remote access these days. No need to pay Tek prices for that.
Which ones allow you to plug the mouse directly into the scope via a USB port ? I'm not sure the Tek 2 allows that either but it would be handy.
cheers
Yes, mouse and keyboard can be used directly via the USB port(s). You can also use the mouse/keyboard on your computer when connected to the scope via the VNC Server.
Yes I really like that feature on my Tek TDS7054 which is esentially a Windows PC. The last thing I want to do is to rub my sticky fluxy fingers on the LCD screen. The mouse is expendable but not so much the LCD screen ;)
The only criticisms of this Tek-2 is they went a bit stingy by omitting the probe sense capability. Plus a 50 ohm option with the 500MHz version maybe worth looking at.
cheers
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Interesting. The Tek is a bit behind the DS1000Z and the SDS1104X-E:
Trigger types
Edge Positive, negative, or either slope on any channel.
Pulse Width Trigger on width of positive or negative pulses. Event can be time- or logic-qualified
Timeout Trigger on an event which remains high, low, or either, for a specified time period. Event can be logic-qualified
Runt Trigger on a pulse that crosses one threshold but fails to cross a second threshold before crossing the first again. Event can be time- or logic-qualified
Logic Trigger when logic pattern goes true, goes false, or occurs coincident with a clock edge. Pattern (AND, OR, NAND, NOR) specified for all input channels defined as high, low, or don't care. Logic pattern going true can be time-qualified
Setup/Hold Trigger on violations of both setup time and hold time between clock and data present on any input channels
Rise/Fall Trigger on pulse edge rates that are faster or slower than specified. Slope may be positive, negative, or either. Event can be logic-qualified
Parallel (with MSO option) Trigger on a parallel bus data value. Parallel bus can be from 1 to 20 bits (from the digital and analog channels) in size. Supports binary and hex radices
I2C (option) Trigger on start, repeated start, stop, missing ack, address (7 or 10 bit), data, or address and data on I2C buses up to 10 Mb/s
SPI (option) Trigger on slave select, idle time, or data (1-16 words) on SPI buses up to 20 Mb/s
RS-232/422/485/UART (option) Trigger on start bit, end of packet, data, and parity error up to 15 Mb/s
CAN (option) Trigger on start of frame, type of frame (data, remote, error, or overload), identifier, data, identifier and data, end of frame, missing ack, and bit stuff error on CAN buses up to 1 Mb/s
LIN (option) Trigger on sync, identifier, data, identifier and data, wakeup frame, sleep frame, and error on lin buses up to 1 Mb/s
SENT (option) Trigger on start of packet, fast channel status and data, slow channel message ID and data, and CRC errors
Source: Tek 2 datasheet (https://www.tek.com/en/datasheet/2-series-mso-mixed-signal-oscilloscope-datasheet)
Do any of them have HiRes or real-time box-car averaging mode ? That was one feature I really liked on my Tek TDS784 and TDS7054 . I don't think it is possible to do this on some of the cheaper scopes if they are continuously stuck in fast aquisition or DPO mode so that's why a lot of scopes with high update rates omit this feature. I'm pretty sure the Rigol DS1000Z didn't have it either.
cheers
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Real scopes don't have web browsers.
You can read datasheets on it.
I don't understand this thought: Real scopes (or whatever) don't have xxxxx. This especially in instruments intended for field use. If I could get a scope with something like the capability of an Ipad running the "scope" I'd jump on it. The flip side of a laptop running a USB scope, can kinda meet the needs in the field but you are still carrying around two clumsy instruments.
And yes a big desire here is to read and store PDF's, browse the net for info and create your own documents for what ever you are working on. Of course saving and filing screen shots on the local machine is a good thing too.
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Real scopes don't have web browsers.
You can read datasheets on it.
Yup. Ideal for field work. Put the documentation on the instrument and the scope is all a field engineer needs to bring along.
This is the worst idea I’ve ever heard of. Give the field engineer an iPad instead. That can be used at the same time, can be used to take notes on and isn’t constrained by a half arsed OS implementation they will inevitably deliver on cost on a scope.
I'd rather have an iPad with a built in scope. Frankly if Apple wanted too they could replace a good portion of all of the scope makers out there if they did an iPad scope with good integration with iPad OS. In the end the UI on most scopes has gotten worse with time.
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Do any of them have HiRes or real-time box-car averaging mode ? That was one feature I really liked on my Tek TDS784 and TDS7054 . I don't think it is possible to do this on some of the cheaper scopes if they are continuously stuck in fast aquisition or DPO mode so that's why a lot of scopes with high update rates omit this feature. I'm pretty sure the Rigol DS1000Z didn't have it either.
Yes, the SDS1000X-E series has up to 3.0-bit ERES in the acquisition menu. The SDS2000X+ is a bit weird, it has a 10-bit mode which is like a 2-bit ERES and then separate 3.0-bit function in the math menu, which burns one of your two math channels and doesn't allow you to use ERES on all the channels. It's not a deal-breaker, but it is something that makes you go "hmmm".
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I don't need to do any of these measurements to a calibration lab level, and really outstanding specialized instruments are not justified for me.
Modern scopes are next step multimeters.
I like to think of them as a modern replacement for the old 500 series instruments from Tek a few decades ago. The only difference is that you had to select and plug in the module/functions you need. A modern scope has so much built in or should have so much built in, you can avoid carrying around a whole series of instruments. Adding the functionality of a personal computing device is just the next logical step
And today's scopes can actually do many things well, if done right.. Of course, there is no need to put a TurboTax on a scope....
There has to be a focus as to what it is.
Let the user decide. One person may need to log into a server too resolve an outstanding ticket while another needs a custom app to drive a device under test, a third might need a micro controller development environment.
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... If I could get a scope with something like the capability of an Ipad running the "scope" I'd jump on it...
I think Liquid Instruments may have something of this nature.
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Lots of oscilloscopes can use a mouse and/or do remote access these days. No need to pay Tek prices for that.
Which ones allow you to plug the mouse directly into the scope via a USB port ? I'm not sure the Tek 2 allows that either but it would be handy.
My Micsig does. I think most of the "touch screen" oscilloscopes do.
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I like to think of them as a modern replacement for the old 500 series instruments from Tek a few decades ago. The only difference is that you had to select and plug in the module/functions you need. A modern scope has so much built in or should have so much built in, you can avoid carrying around a whole series of instruments. Adding the functionality of a personal computing device is just the next logical step
Do you mean the 400 series instruments, like the 465? The 500 series were tube instruments and in the "laboratory" category.
Tektronix divided their product lines into "service" and "laboratory" instruments. Back when TV servicing existed, it could be easy to distinguish the two because the service instruments included TV triggering and the laboratory ones did not, at least by default.
This new MSO 2 definitely falls into the "service" category, if only because of the lack of a probe interface.
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I like to think of them as a modern replacement for the old 500 series instruments from Tek a few decades ago. The only difference is that you had to select and plug in the module/functions you need. A modern scope has so much built in or should have so much built in, you can avoid carrying around a whole series of instruments. Adding the functionality of a personal computing device is just the next logical step
Do you mean the 400 series instruments, like the 465? The 500 series were tube instruments and in the "laboratory" category.
Probably TDS500 series...
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Do you mean the 400 series instruments, like the 465? The 500 series were tube instruments and in the "laboratory" category.
I think he's referring to the TM500 plug-in system.
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I like to think of them as a modern replacement for the old 500 series instruments from Tek a few decades ago. The only difference is that you had to select and plug in the module/functions you need. A modern scope has so much built in or should have so much built in, you can avoid carrying around a whole series of instruments. Adding the functionality of a personal computing device is just the next logical step
Do you mean the 400 series instruments, like the 465? The 500 series were tube instruments and in the "laboratory" category.
Probably TDS500 series...
The TDS400 series were the "service" instruments. The TDS500 series was the lowest performance of the "laboratory" instruments. TDS600 had real time sample rates, meaning sample rate independent of the number of channels. TDS700 were DPOs with InstaVu although this eventually moved down to the TDS500 series.
Notice that the TDS400 included video triggering standard, but video triggering was an option on the TDS500 and higher series.
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Interesting. The Tek is a bit behind the DS1000Z and the SDS1104X-E:
Trigger types
Edge Positive, negative, or either slope on any channel.
Pulse Width Trigger on width of positive or negative pulses. Event can be time- or logic-qualified
Timeout Trigger on an event which remains high, low, or either, for a specified time period. Event can be logic-qualified
Runt Trigger on a pulse that crosses one threshold but fails to cross a second threshold before crossing the first again. Event can be time- or logic-qualified
Logic Trigger when logic pattern goes true, goes false, or occurs coincident with a clock edge. Pattern (AND, OR, NAND, NOR) specified for all input channels defined as high, low, or don't care. Logic pattern going true can be time-qualified
Setup/Hold Trigger on violations of both setup time and hold time between clock and data present on any input channels
Rise/Fall Trigger on pulse edge rates that are faster or slower than specified. Slope may be positive, negative, or either. Event can be logic-qualified
Parallel (with MSO option) Trigger on a parallel bus data value. Parallel bus can be from 1 to 20 bits (from the digital and analog channels) in size. Supports binary and hex radices
I2C (option) Trigger on start, repeated start, stop, missing ack, address (7 or 10 bit), data, or address and data on I2C buses up to 10 Mb/s
SPI (option) Trigger on slave select, idle time, or data (1-16 words) on SPI buses up to 20 Mb/s
RS-232/422/485/UART (option) Trigger on start bit, end of packet, data, and parity error up to 15 Mb/s
CAN (option) Trigger on start of frame, type of frame (data, remote, error, or overload), identifier, data, identifier and data, end of frame, missing ack, and bit stuff error on CAN buses up to 1 Mb/s
LIN (option) Trigger on sync, identifier, data, identifier and data, wakeup frame, sleep frame, and error on lin buses up to 1 Mb/s
SENT (option) Trigger on start of packet, fast channel status and data, slow channel message ID and data, and CRC errors
Source: Tek 2 datasheet (https://www.tek.com/en/datasheet/2-series-mso-mixed-signal-oscilloscope-datasheet)
Do any of them have HiRes or real-time box-car averaging mode ? That was one feature I really liked on my Tek TDS784 and TDS7054 . I don't think it is possible to do this on some of the cheaper scopes if they are continuously stuck in fast aquisition or DPO mode so that's why a lot of scopes with high update rates omit this feature. I'm pretty sure the Rigol DS1000Z didn't have it either.
cheers
The 2 Series has High Res (boxcar averaging) acquisition mode, as well as Peak, Envelope, Average and Sample (default).
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Interesting. The Tek is a bit behind the DS1000Z and the SDS1104X-E:
Trigger types
Edge Positive, negative, or either slope on any channel.
Pulse Width Trigger on width of positive or negative pulses. Event can be time- or logic-qualified
Timeout Trigger on an event which remains high, low, or either, for a specified time period. Event can be logic-qualified
Runt Trigger on a pulse that crosses one threshold but fails to cross a second threshold before crossing the first again. Event can be time- or logic-qualified
Logic Trigger when logic pattern goes true, goes false, or occurs coincident with a clock edge. Pattern (AND, OR, NAND, NOR) specified for all input channels defined as high, low, or don't care. Logic pattern going true can be time-qualified
Setup/Hold Trigger on violations of both setup time and hold time between clock and data present on any input channels
Rise/Fall Trigger on pulse edge rates that are faster or slower than specified. Slope may be positive, negative, or either. Event can be logic-qualified
Parallel (with MSO option) Trigger on a parallel bus data value. Parallel bus can be from 1 to 20 bits (from the digital and analog channels) in size. Supports binary and hex radices
I2C (option) Trigger on start, repeated start, stop, missing ack, address (7 or 10 bit), data, or address and data on I2C buses up to 10 Mb/s
SPI (option) Trigger on slave select, idle time, or data (1-16 words) on SPI buses up to 20 Mb/s
RS-232/422/485/UART (option) Trigger on start bit, end of packet, data, and parity error up to 15 Mb/s
CAN (option) Trigger on start of frame, type of frame (data, remote, error, or overload), identifier, data, identifier and data, end of frame, missing ack, and bit stuff error on CAN buses up to 1 Mb/s
LIN (option) Trigger on sync, identifier, data, identifier and data, wakeup frame, sleep frame, and error on lin buses up to 1 Mb/s
SENT (option) Trigger on start of packet, fast channel status and data, slow channel message ID and data, and CRC errors
Source: Tek 2 datasheet (https://www.tek.com/en/datasheet/2-series-mso-mixed-signal-oscilloscope-datasheet)
Do any of them have HiRes or real-time box-car averaging mode ? That was one feature I really liked on my Tek TDS784 and TDS7054 . I don't think it is possible to do this on some of the cheaper scopes if they are continuously stuck in fast aquisition or DPO mode so that's why a lot of scopes with high update rates omit this feature. I'm pretty sure the Rigol DS1000Z didn't have it either.
cheers
The 2 Series has High Res (boxcar averaging) acquisition mode, as well as Peak, Envelope, Average and Sample (default).
Envelope mode is the only difference, and it is a useful acquisition mode.. I know R&S RB2000 has it ( and many more). On some scopes you have it as math function..
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I just read the data sheet for the Tek MSO-2 https://download.tek.com/datasheet/2SeriesMSO-Datasheet-EN-48W738570.pdf (https://download.tek.com/datasheet/2SeriesMSO-Datasheet-EN-48W738570.pdf) and it looks like it is way ahead on the sampling rate with 2.5 Gs/s for 2 channels and 1.25 Gs/s for all four channels. Whereas the MicSig are pretty coy about mentioning it at all and only talk about 1 Gs/s max for one channel. Looks like you only get 500Ms/s for 2 channels and 250Ms/s for all four channels :( I think the Tek wins hands down here.
cheers
Yes the sample rate is split, so Tek is ahead of a $600 portable scope that includes a battery. But behind on wfm/s and memory depth. Depending on the application one of those aspects might be more important to you.
If you drop down to 2 channels, micsig STO2202C 2GS/s is $900.
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I just read the data sheet for the Tek MSO-2 https://download.tek.com/datasheet/2SeriesMSO-Datasheet-EN-48W738570.pdf (https://download.tek.com/datasheet/2SeriesMSO-Datasheet-EN-48W738570.pdf) and it looks like it is way ahead on the sampling rate with 2.5 Gs/s for 2 channels and 1.25 Gs/s for all four channels. Whereas the MicSig are pretty coy about mentioning it at all and only talk about 1 Gs/s max for one channel. Looks like you only get 500Ms/s for 2 channels and 250Ms/s for all four channels :( I think the Tek wins hands down here.
cheers
Yes the sample rate is split, so Tek is ahead of a $600 portable scope that includes a battery. But behind on wfm/s and memory depth. Depending on the application one of those aspects might be more important to you.
If you drop down to 2 channels, micsig STO2202C 2GS/s is $900.
I haven't seen pricing yet but I'd be willing to bet the new 500Mhz, 3GSa/s Micsig (https://www.micsig.com.cn/ETO/) will cost less than an entry-level 70Mhz Tektronix. Plus it has a 13" screen.
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I just read the data sheet for the Tek MSO-2 https://download.tek.com/datasheet/2SeriesMSO-Datasheet-EN-48W738570.pdf (https://download.tek.com/datasheet/2SeriesMSO-Datasheet-EN-48W738570.pdf) and it looks like it is way ahead on the sampling rate with 2.5 Gs/s for 2 channels and 1.25 Gs/s for all four channels. Whereas the MicSig are pretty coy about mentioning it at all and only talk about 1 Gs/s max for one channel. Looks like you only get 500Ms/s for 2 channels and 250Ms/s for all four channels :( I think the Tek wins hands down here.
cheers
Yes the sample rate is split, so Tek is ahead of a $600 portable scope that includes a battery. But behind on wfm/s and memory depth. Depending on the application one of those aspects might be more important to you.
If you drop down to 2 channels, micsig STO2202C 2GS/s is $900.
Only 2 channels ?
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I just read the data sheet for the Tek MSO-2 https://download.tek.com/datasheet/2SeriesMSO-Datasheet-EN-48W738570.pdf (https://download.tek.com/datasheet/2SeriesMSO-Datasheet-EN-48W738570.pdf) and it looks like it is way ahead on the sampling rate with 2.5 Gs/s for 2 channels and 1.25 Gs/s for all four channels. Whereas the MicSig are pretty coy about mentioning it at all and only talk about 1 Gs/s max for one channel. Looks like you only get 500Ms/s for 2 channels and 250Ms/s for all four channels :( I think the Tek wins hands down here.
cheers
Yes the sample rate is split, so Tek is ahead of a $600 portable scope that includes a battery. But behind on wfm/s and memory depth. Depending on the application one of those aspects might be more important to you.
If you drop down to 2 channels, micsig STO2202C 2GS/s is $900.
I haven't seen pricing yet but I'd be willing to bet the new 500Mhz, 3GSa/s Micsig (https://www.micsig.com.cn/ETO/) will cost less than an entry-level 70Mhz Tektronix. Plus it has a 13" screen.
Now that's worth a look ;)
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The sub 500 bucks 4ch Micsig got metal-thread freaking inserts. (nuff said :phew: )
Well done Micsig :clap:
https://i.imgur.com/MrOJkcY.jpg https://i.imgur.com/LZd14WG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/iG8mnP6.jpg https://i.imgur.com/hEwNuVp.jpg
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The sub 500 bucks 4ch Micsig got metal-thread freaking inserts. (nuff said :phew: )
Well done Micsig :clap:
don't know if that is such good a thing. Lost count how many times I have taken gear apart when those inserts have spun around because the plastic supporting them had cracked. Worse still is when Loctite is used and the insert gets stuck to the screw :(
cheers
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The sub 500 bucks 4ch Micsig got metal-thread freaking inserts. (nuff said :phew: )
Well done Micsig :clap:
don't know if that is such good a thing. Lost count how many times I have taken gear apart when those inserts have spun around because the plastic supporting them had cracked. Worse still is when Loctite is used and the insert gets stuck to the screw :(
cheers
I sense the sarcasm went over your head, it was in regards to Dave's tear-down vid of this new MSO2x Tek-scope..
2:09 // https://youtu.be/R2fw2g6WFbg?t=129 (https://youtu.be/R2fw2g6WFbg?t=129)
and nope. I don't have any problems with metal threaded inserts and prefer that over self-tappers on equipment at a certain price.
So you don't need to nurse screws counter to pursue the minor dump' trying to find the old plastic-thread. and not partly start a new one.
but it does add to the molding cost, and it's relative how much you actually gonna take a scope apart, but it will often elevate more clamping pressure in two combing parts and how rigid a given product feels and are.
Metal threaded inserts into fx 3D printing is another topic, how resistant they are.
Best regards Jakob.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2fw2g6WFbg&t=129s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2fw2g6WFbg&t=129s)
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The sub 500 bucks 4ch Micsig got metal-thread freaking inserts. (nuff said :phew: )
Well done Micsig :clap:
don't know if that is such good a thing. Lost count how many times I have taken gear apart when those inserts have spun around because the plastic supporting them had cracked. Worse still is when Loctite is used and the insert gets stuck to the screw :(
cheers
I sense the sarcasm went over your head, it was in regards to Dave's tear-down vid of this new MSO2x Tek-scope..
2:09 // https://youtu.be/R2fw2g6WFbg?t=129 (https://youtu.be/R2fw2g6WFbg?t=129)
and nope. I don't have any problems with metal threaded inserts and prefer that over self-tappers on equipment at a certain price.
and you don't need to nurse screws back for the minor dump' trying to find the old thread. and not start a new one.
but it does add to the molding cost and it's relative how much you actually gonna take a scope apart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2fw2g6WFbg&t=129s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2fw2g6WFbg&t=129s)
I saw it but at the end of the day it is still plastic. If the screws actually screw into a metal chassis like most bench top scopes with a proper nutsert embedded into the chassis etc then that would be a much better solution than either screw into plastic scenario of these two scopes.
cheers
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Tons of documentation on the benefits of metal threaded inserts (versus not) and also the added cost in the molding process, and why some vendors skip on it -
I do agree with Dave, that it's a shame they didn't, not least at these prices and the intended use-case of this scope, where mobility plays a role..
it would have made more sense here - than it would fx on a stationary product.
This product is intended for both a 2kg battery-pack on the big plastic backplate' with a combined weight not far from 4kg, and also intended for VESA-mount in classrooms, labs, etc. - where the plastic structure between the plastic back & the plastic front-housing could benefit from that rigid clamping-pressure, you can obtain with metal threaded inserts, not to mention the overall feel & handling..
As it can make the product feel more rigid & solid - if it's threaded into metal inserts, as the clamping pressure can often be way higher (+40% to 50%), but it will vary from product to product - and the quality of the molding & plastic.
Also other approaches' where you can obtain some of the clamping benefits of metal-threaded-inserts into soft materiel (like fx plastic) with the use of self-tappers .. by fx increasing the numbers of self-tapping-screws.
// Brief sum-up. https://groov-pin.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Threaded_Inserts_Benefits.pdf
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Tons of documentation on the benefits of metal threaded inserts (versus not) and also the added cost in the molding process, and why some vendors skip on it -
I do agree with Dave, that it's a shame they didn't, not least at these prices and the intended use-case of this scope, where mobility plays a role..
it would have made more sense here - than it would fx on a stationary product.
I bought some very inexpensive DMMs a couple years ago to evaluate for fun. One of the cheapest ones - I think the brand was Tacklife - had a brass insert for the battery cover to screw into. Yea for this kind of expense and brand name not to have that is, umm, not shining a good light IMHO.
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I bought some very inexpensive DMMs a couple years ago to evaluate for fun. One of the cheapest ones - I think the brand was Tacklife - had a brass insert for the battery cover to screw into.
Yes, but that will be removed many times under normal use of the meter (to change the battery).
You're not supposed to take the back off this Tek, ever. It gets put on once and that's it. Self tappers eliminate the possibility of cross-threading during manufacture.
Still very cheap-ass of them though. At this price it should have a full metal backplate to give it a premium feel. I guess that's what the handle does though.
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Tons of documentation on the benefits of metal threaded inserts (versus not) and also the added cost in the molding process, and why some vendors skip on it -
I do agree with Dave, that it's a shame they didn't, not least at these prices and the intended use-case of this scope, where mobility plays a role..
it would have made more sense here - than it would fx on a stationary product.
I bought some very inexpensive DMMs a couple years ago to evaluate for fun. One of the cheapest ones - I think the brand was Tacklife - had a brass insert for the battery cover to screw into. Yea for this kind of expense and brand name not to have that is, umm, not shining a good light IMHO.
You have to put that into perspective: a battery cover is supposed to be opened many times by people with very little feel for mechanical stuff. A casing OTOH maybe once or twice by trained repair engineers that know how to deal with self tapping screws in plastic properly.
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I bought some very inexpensive DMMs a couple years ago to evaluate for fun. One of the cheapest ones - I think the brand was Tacklife - had a brass insert for the battery cover to screw into.
Yes, but that will be removed many times under normal use of the meter (to change the battery).
You're not supposed to take the back off this Tek, ever. It gets put on once and that's it. Self tappers eliminate the possibility of cross-threading during manufacture.
Still very cheap-ass of them though. At this price it should have a full metal backplate to give it a premium feel. I guess that's what the handle does though.
They are trying to keep it as light as possible otherwise they could have used more metalwork to screw into ;)
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It is also possible that material availability played a role and Tektronix didn't bet on getting hold of large amounts of aluminium and / or metal inserts. Whatever you don't need to source is one headache less nowadays.
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Would anyone happen to know if the "2-ULTIMATE" feature license bundle -- aside from offering the two (out of five) feature options available today -- might also encompass the three "available in future" features (pattern gen, volt meter, trigger freq counter)?
If not, doesn't seem so "ultimate"... but if so, it could be a nice way to offer a small concession to early adopters who masochistically embrace the "end user as beta tester" model on what seems to be an unfinished scope, assuming future & more feature-rich 2-ULTIMATE pricing would go up...
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Don't know about the 2 series.
At our 4 Series the Ultimate bundle included updates for one year. So if a new option was added within this year we got it for free. New options added after that year we don't get for free.
Normal software updates like bug fixes are still for free as far as i know. Just no new options after the first year.
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I tried this recently and was extremely disappointed. Could only find the most basic features, the build quality was obscene, and at the time didn’t publish any data to evaluate common mode coupling isolation between channels.
That being said love the form factor!