EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: EEVblog on August 03, 2015, 03:59:05 am
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http://www.owon.com.hk/products_info.asp?ParentID=57&SortID=87&ProID=182#sthash.z3SFg8BA.dpbs (http://www.owon.com.hk/products_info.asp?ParentID=57&SortID=87&ProID=182#sthash.z3SFg8BA.dpbs)
They claim a true 12 bit converter on several models
WiFi, multimeter, AWG, battery option
They might be sending me one.
Anyone seen one in the wild?
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Seems they still have VGA output, but on the specs it's listed as an option.
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Seems they still have VGA output, but on the specs it's listed as an option.
One of the preferred feature for me personally, as looking at a lcd monitor say even the smallest one in the market, and even at lowres is a lot better than the tiny scope's screen for an old deteriorating eyes.
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Seems they still have VGA output, but on the specs it's listed as an option.
One of the preferred feature for me personally, as looking at a lcd monitor say even the smallest one in the market, and even at lowres is a lot better than the tiny scope's screen for an old deteriorating eyes.
I hear that one. It is getting to the point I cant see things to solder them properly anymore, its like fumbling in the dark.
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Seems they still have VGA output, but on the specs it's listed as an option.
One of the preferred feature for me personally, as looking at a lcd monitor say even the smallest one in the market, and even at lowres is a lot better than the tiny scope's screen for an old deteriorating eyes.
I hear that one. It is getting to the point I cant see things to solder them properly anymore, its like fumbling in the dark.
Yup, bad eyes here as well.
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Nice that they've finally increased the screen resolution, but it still looks like it would fall over when you pressed any of the top buttons.
McBryce.
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I have one of the SDS8102 which also has the 8", 800*600 screen. It's a great screen with a good viewing angle. It looks like the XDS might use the same screen.
They have remplaced the hard plastic menu buttons on the bottom and side of the screen with soft rubber buttons, but I hope they have improved the menu system and structure, there is just too much bottom menu press, side menu press, twiddle knob, bottom press , side press etc etc !
The bandwidth of the SDS is also very generous, it's specified as 100MHz but tested recently at 200MHz. The hardware trigger counter works to 350MHz.
Glad to see Owon cooming out with something new, I look forward to a review.
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Nice that they've finally increased the screen resolution....
Since October 2010 Owon SDS series have been with 8" 800x600 TFT and today XDS3000 series continue same size and resolution in standard version. I hope they still use same high quality TFT as in SDS series.
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Ah, didn't know that, I've only ever seen their MSO series in real life and the owner told me they all had 640x480 screens (although I'm pretty convinced that it was displaying a 320x240 image).
McBryce.
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Ah, didn't know that, I've only ever seen their MSO series in real life and the owner told me they all had 640x480 screens (although I'm pretty convinced that it was displaying a 320x240 image).
McBryce.
XDS3000 (8bit ADC) and XDS3000A (12bit ADC) have also optional capasitive touch screen.
Base model have 800x600 but there is also optinal 1024 x 768 pixels IPS display.
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Wow, looks like a shameless clone of the Rigol look and feel. All those random oblique angles for no reason.
Unfortunately software seems to be an afterthought with owon.
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If you search for pictures of the Owon XDS3000 on google or bing you get zero results?? How is that even possible. I don't think I've ever got zero results for a picture search? Where did you find a picture of one? (Or is my search somehow broken?)
McBryce.
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If you go for instance to http://www.owon.com.hk/ (http://www.owon.com.hk/)
there you'll have some pictures though admitted not the biggest.
Also a quick user guide (in english) is available for download.
What puzzles me a bit is the -A version with 12-bit (4096steps) vertical resolution and how they could keep up the claimed 75.000 wfps. It is a whole lot
more data to be crunched versus the traditional 8-bit (256steps) scopes. Also they are asking only like 150 Euros extra for the 12-bit version.
Currently I see a lot of new scope models coming to market e.g. Owon XDS series and also Siglent with their 1000X series (which soon will come in a MSO
version called SDS1102X-LA) then for the 100MHz unit. Also GW Instek have revamped their 2000 platform now with an -E suffix. It gets interesting
but also a bit more confusing to make the right choice I guess.
And I also heard that R&S in their value line (Hameg) are developping a touchscreen version of their lower priced DSO's. Looks like a hot end 2015 throughout
2016 year of new T&M. Also then maybe harder & harder to review. Soon new DSO's coming out as fast as new smartphones :-// and pricing more and more hitting
the floor. Who would have thought about all these goodies some years ago in T&M...
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What puzzles me a bit is the -A version with 12-bit (4096steps) vertical resolution and how they could keep up the claimed 75.000 wfps. It is a whole lot
more data to be crunched versus the traditional 8-bit (256steps) scopes. Also they are asking only like 150 Euros extra for the 12-bit version.
Two ideas:
1. Vertical resolution is simply limited in software.
2. The entire platform was developed with a 12-bit resolution in mind and the non-A version swaps one or more parts of the input architecture for cheaper versions (ADC, FPGA, etc.)
But it seems likely that it's just 1. at play (or maybe that's my wishful thinking?). >:D :popcorn:
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What puzzles me a bit is the -A version with 12-bit (4096steps) vertical resolution and how they could keep up the claimed 75.000 wfps. It is a whole lot
more data to be crunched versus the traditional 8-bit (256steps) scopes. Also they are asking only like 150 Euros extra for the 12-bit version.
12Bit 1GSa/s ADC
12Bit ADC. 1GSa/s in 8Bit mode, 500MSa/s in 12bit mode.
8bit 1GSa/s ADC
Both give same amount of samples out.
What need hanle more?
Of course 12 bit math is some amount more than 8bit math. How much continuous math you need do? (there in real time stream) With fastest wfm/s and or fastest horizontal speeds there is high amount of blind time for math and other handling.
If wfm/s with 20ns/div is 75000 (just imagined, not true) whole waveform time is around 200ns (if 10div)
and 13100 ns is just blind time for next 200ns capture. Acquire engine do not need do lot of math, it can do with side engine, depending design.
Today ADC's, FPGA's etc have developed forward very fast. Where is problem.
I predict that there is coming many other manufacturers who follow Owon.
We remember time when SDS was launched. 1GSa/s entry level scope where was 10M full speed sampling buffer for both channels. Front end design was amazing good with totally different than example market "leader" Rigol DS1052E at this time. At this time Owon also use new analog circuit front end and true one chip expensive ADC (original AD or its RuiFeng clone). and this time most manufacturers use example 10 cheap 100MSa/s ADC's more or less poorly interleaved and even more they use 40MHz classified cheap chips of this ADC what was designed to 100MHz.
Later they (looks like) nearly copy this Owon SDS front end principle to Rigol DS2000. (2/1GSa/s version)
Now Owon make XDS3000A versions what have 12bit ADC. ADC12bit A model and ADC8bit without A model is only difference. Rest of scope can be in HW same design. (but this is only guessing based to long time experience and knowledge with this kind of things and also experience with Owon, Rigol, Hantek, Siglent - and of course western companies equipments)
Bottle neck have been ADC if think resolution and sampling speed. It is not anymore so much if we talk in under 4-5GSa/s range. Other bottle neck is memory speed (and of course data handling speed between ADC and meomory specially for digital side trigger process when this principle is used. Older times it was nearly only possible in cheap scopes to use analog side trigger. As example Rigol DS1000E, Siglent SDS1000, Owon SDS series... etc. In these things world have changed really fast. Digital trigger was available only in advanced more expensive scopes.
At this time (I have heard from little birds) there is only A models available from Owon.
Personally I hope I get one XDS3kA soon, so I can check what is reality and what was only quessing.
I have waited long time manufacturers start making low noise analog front ends and more than 8 bit resolution to nearly entry level scopes. Lowest V/div in XDS is 1mV/div. I do not know if it is BW limit forced and/or if it is pixel zoomed from 2mV/div or what it is. If it is low noise native 1mV/div sensitivity it is ok for true 12bit scope. Siglent have launched SDS1000X serie where is 500uV/div native sensitivity (claimed by Siglent).
Entry level to lover middle level scopes have fast developed better. Perhaps soon we see next jump to up. Not sampling speed and memory speed but now also resolution start rise from tens of years "normal" 8bit to higher. It may happend fast. It also depends how components prices come down from sky.
But parts of about Owon XDS is now speculation until truth can see with real XDS3102A on the lab table.
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Wow, looks like a shameless clone of the Rigol look and feel. All those random oblique angles for no reason.
Lol, absolutely the worst thing about most recent Rigol offerings is their toy styled front panel designs. Somebody actually thought it a good idea to copy that? :-DD
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Nice to see that they've at least taken notice and ditched the hard to read Red colour for Channel 1.
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Just one image. I can not tell much more yet. Multitouch display works some amount better than what I expect (of course simultaneously all normal adjustment are normally working so there is nothing forcet only for touch - of course). Fun detail is that fast double knock to display stop and run scope. Just quick check and max wfm/s is least over 60000wfm/s
-3dB BW is somewhere around 180MHz (not yet accurate meas)
12bit resolution force one channel max samplerate down to 500MSa/s and it looks like it also affect BW small drop, but not much)
Some day more.
Only information in this image is that scope is running and it display something, so now I know this product is not only image on the paper.
And... FW is 1.0.0.0 (hope soon first fixes)
1mV and 2mV/div both are BW rejected.
Agen 8" 800x600 TFT itself is really good (contrast, brightness, angle..)! Also this touch panel model.
Perhaps it is also because Lilliput company have long time worked with monitors.
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I wonder if there is any visual persistence feature. Well, the scope still looks like a toy. It is apparently inspired by Rigol rear design. I am looking forward to the review!
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Agen 8" 800x600 TFT itself is really good (contrast, brightness, angle..)!
That is nice, but my 17" LCD PC monitor from 2006 is also so good. LCDs are cheap nowadays.
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And is that a full-blown DMM?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-owon-xds-oscilloscopes/?action=dlattach;attach=173496;image)
--deckert
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And is that a full-blown DMM?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-owon-xds-oscilloscopes/?action=dlattach;attach=173496;image)
--deckert
As noted in the specs, it's a very basic 4000 count meter. Doesn't list TrueRMS or say anything about input protection.
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And is that a full-blown DMM?
Looks like a full blown afterthought!
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What is that?
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A very immature user who really needs to be banned.
McBryce.
Edit: This and Hydrawerks post above no longer make sense, as the offending post has now been deleted.
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A very immature user who really needs to be banned.
McBryce.
Especially since the formatting is no good.
Keep your dick in a vise!
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http://www.ittsb.eu/forum/index.php?topic=1065.0 (http://www.ittsb.eu/forum/index.php?topic=1065.0)
I doubt there is a 12-bit 2GS/s ADC. There are even no MSO capability.
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May be an oversampling Technique?
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May be an oversampling Technique?
Why? How have you arrived at that idea? Some facts or just blind random for nil.
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May be an oversampling Technique?
Why? How have you arrived at that idea? Some facts or just blind random for nil.
Well, it's not a completely unrealistic thought, considering that 12bit ADCs with a high enough sample rate (like for example the AD9625) are still pretty pricey.
Plus to process the larger amount of data the processor back end needs to be faster, although this should still be relative inexpensive.
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May be an oversampling Technique?
Why? How have you arrived at that idea? Some facts or just blind random for nil.
Well, it's not a completely unrealistic thought, considering that 12bit ADCs with a high enough sample rate (like for example the AD9625) are still pretty pricey.
Plus to process the larger amount of data the processor back end needs to be faster, although this should still be relative inexpensive.
I do not know anything about Owon XDS3202A, this product is not avalable, not even demo.
So talking about this model possible 12bit ADC full 2GSa/s sampling rate is just null.
I do not know how this model 12Bit mode works.
Instead, I know XDS3102A.
They tell its max samplerate is 1GSa/s, there is 12bit resolution, 40M memory etc.
For XDS3102A facts are:
There is 1GSa/s for single channel in 8bit mode and 500MSa/s for 2 channel simultaneously.
1Ch alone and max memory is 40M
2Ch simultaneously and there is 20M for each channel.
Maximum samplerate for 12bit mode is 500MSa/s for single channel.
(Later I show a table.)
12Bit and 8bit frequency bandwidth's are around same. (I think this is not software "hi-res" or "ERES" implementation, it is hardware, there must be ADC what have 12bit resolution mode. I have strong suspect what ADC it is but I need more direct evidences before I can tell it. The rumors, delusions and facts are useful to keep separated from each others.
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For XDS3102A facts are:
There is 1GSa/s for single channel in 8bit mode and 500MSa/s for 2 channel simultaneously.
[...]
Maximum samplerate for 12bit mode is 500MSa/s for single channel.
Well, the sample rate difference does strongly suggest that the 12bit resolution is actually achieved through oversampling.
The presence of an "8bit mode" also very much suggests that this isn't a true 12bit scope but simply an oversampled 8bit ADC (true 12bit scopes run at 12bit all the time, as there's not much point in reducing the resolution, although you can increase resolution further beyond 12bit through ERES).
12Bit and 8bit frequency bandwidth's are around same. (I think this is not software "hi-res" or "ERES" implementation, it is hardware, there must be ADC what have 12bit resolution mode. I have strong suspect what ADC it is but I need more direct evidences before I can tell it. The rumors, delusions and facts are useful to keep separated from each others.
There's nothing wrong with speculating, especially when the manufacturer can't be bothered to provide more detailed information.
The thing is that the target price of the scope doesn't leave much room for true 12bit ADCs, even less so for the faster scopes that claim the same sample rate at 8bit and 12bit.
You have to understand that people are skeptical when OWON claims to offer a true 12bit 2ch 200MHz 2GSa/s scope (XDS3202A) for less than $1500 when the cheapest A-brand true 12bit equivalent with similar specs (2ch 200MHz 2.5GSa/s) starts at roughly $9k.
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For XDS3102A facts are:
There is 1GSa/s for single channel in 8bit mode and 500MSa/s for 2 channel simultaneously.
[...]
Maximum samplerate for 12bit mode is 500MSa/s for single channel.
Well, the sample rate difference does strongly suggest that the 12bit resolution is actually achieved through oversampling.
The presence of an "8bit mode" also very much suggests that this isn't a true 12bit scope but simply an oversampled 8bit ADC (true 12bit scopes run at 12bit all the time, as there's not much point in reducing the resolution, although you can increase resolution further beyond 12bit through ERES).
12Bit and 8bit frequency bandwidth's are around same. (I think this is not software "hi-res" or "ERES" implementation, it is hardware, there must be ADC what have 12bit resolution mode. I have strong suspect what ADC it is but I need more direct evidences before I can tell it. The rumors, delusions and facts are useful to keep separated from each others.
There's nothing wrong with speculating, especially when the manufacturer can't be bothered to provide more detailed information.
The thing is that the target price of the scope doesn't leave much room for true 12bit ADCs, even less so for the faster scopes that claim the same sample rate at 8bit and 12bit.
You have to understand that people are skeptical when OWON claims to offer a true 12bit 2ch 200MHz 2GSa/s scope (XDS3202A) for less than $1500 when the cheapest A-brand true 12bit equivalent with similar specs (2ch 200MHz 2.5GSa/s) starts at roughly $9k.
I can not talk anything about XDS3202A least because this model do not exist or least I do not know where is.
What I know is XDS3102A.
"Well, the sample rate difference does strongly suggest that the 12bit resolution is actually achieved through oversampling."
Really, can you explain? What is there doing oversampling?
How to do "12 bit resolution" or even 9 bit... using 1GSa/s 8bit ADC so that one shot real time samplerate is 500MSa/s and real time frequency response is least over 160MHz. (measured using XDS3102A using its 12bit mode)
I do not know anything what is inside THIS Owon model but lets take just basic trivial example...
Take one Hittite HMCAD1520 and after then start - if nothing else - but thinking. What can do with it.
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Owon XDS3103A waveform update speed. This table is only small fraction of all mesurements about wfm/s. (later more)
It need note that Owon memory selection means always true sample buffer lenght. It is not reduced to display width.
Example if 1k is selected and speed is 10ns/div. If samplerate is 1GSa/s there is 1ns sample period. Acquired lenght By time is 1us (1000ns) but in this case display have only around 150ns part, rest of trace is just outside. If stop scope it can zoom out and/or horizontally shift for look) Even with 2ns/div setting and with 40M memory... display is around 30ns and whole trace is 40000000ns.
If need fastest possible wfm/s user need select 1k
( there can not select less and there is not auto what reduce it automatically for display width. It need note that this rise visible blind time.)
If persistence is selected on, it rise some amount wfm/s speed but also with it, it can not speed up to claimed 75kwfm/s. (if there exist some very short time peak values, this I have not tested.)
Later more.
Add: Here better full table: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-owon-xds-oscilloscopes/msg769599/#msg769599 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-owon-xds-oscilloscopes/msg769599/#msg769599)
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The presence of an "8bit mode" also very much suggests that this isn't a true 12bit scope but simply an oversampled 8bit ADC (true 12bit scopes run at 12bit all the time, as there's not much point in reducing the resolution, although you can increase resolution further beyond 12bit through ERES).
Can you explain this your comment?
Of course it can be true 12bit ADC. Why you think there is not point for 8bit resolution. There is very strong point to do this.
If ADC can do max 500MSa/s in 12bit mode and 1GSa/s in 8bit mode there is just well enough reason.
And then about this ERES comment. Did you think anything aboit bandwidth?
Can you even small amount think what is possible result if 1GSa/s 8bit adc data is used for ERES so that result is around 12 bit resolution. Do it have 2MHz bandwidth in 12bit mode? No, it do not have. as told previously, it have around same BW if 8bit or 12bit mode is selected. So how relevant is your comment in this case.
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I think that DMM on the XDS series back panel is taken from their handheld series. Please note that the screen image is simulated.
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Quick look to FFT
Signal 86MHz sine (HP/Agilent 8644B), FFT 0-125MHz zoomed so that one div is 500kHz.
Ref level adjusted so that no clipping, just below 10div height p-p
Then adjusted signal 70dB down, right inserted image (ref -70dB). After then dropped 10dB more and left inserted image (ref -80dB).
All other settings untouched.
Images directly with PC using Wi-Fi, scope as Wi-Fi AP. (upper right corner scope wifi symbol)
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Here is full table about maximum average waveform update rate for single channel in use.
It need note that if persistence is in use then wfm/s speed may be bit higher with some settings.
In this table is used 1s or 10s average speed. There may be some higher wfm/s speed if look highest short time peak speed. I do not use these values.
With some t/div and memory settings user can select between 8 or 12 bit mode for ADC. If n/a then scope of course use only option. (If ADC is working in one channel mode then 12 bit mode max real samplerate 500MSa/s )
Later same using 2 channel
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Seems they still have VGA output, but on the specs it's listed as an option.
When will they go for an HDMI output? =)
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Seems they still have VGA output, but on the specs it's listed as an option.
When will they go for an HDMI output? =)
If I remember right some villages and towns schools in Nigeria still may have VGA monitors next 5 years....
And..
Because it is more interesting to talk about what feature somewhere do not exist than what there is.
But some thing still exist today. If there is customer who need A and wnat pay for A there is manufacturer / seller who do and sell A. But if there is manufacturer who make A without anybody want A exept some rare hobbyist or other... sorry but I do not believe this business - I do not buy this idea. Even if A is nice.
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Here is full table about maximum average waveform update rate for two channels in use.
It need note that if persistence is in use then wfm/s speed may be bit higher with some settings as also with single channel.
In this table is used 1s or 10s average speed. There may be some higher wfm/s speed if look highest short time peak speed. I do not use these values. I think I have seen some very rare and short time peak values up to over 74kwfm/s but if there exist just some peak value between two individual acquisition it is not very honest to write it on promotion material. I do not know if touch panel eat any power from acquistion speed if not touched. I can not test scope without this option to look if there exist 75kwfm/s without fisherman lies.
I do not know if there is some advantage possible in later FW versions. I wonder why persistence on give bit better speed. Example two channel 1k mem, 100ns/div. Persistence off 57500 wfm/s and persitence 1s selected 61400 wfm/s or somethink like this (10k memory) 19500-->20600; 19300-->20400 wfm/s
If two channels are in use then user can not select between 12 and 8 bit ADC mode.
As long as it can use 500MSa/s for both channels it use ADC in double channel 8bit mode and if samplerate is 250MSa/s it use ADC in double channel 12bit mode. More low samplerates are only decimation from true samplerate.
True raw samplerates are, until different evidences:
Single channel 8bit mode 1GSa/s, Single channel 12bit mode 500MSa/s
Double channel 8bit mode 500MSa/s and double channel 12bit mode 250MSa/s.
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Well, for a 100MHz scope in 2015, I want 1GS/s per each channel. Anyway, what does the intensity gradation (aka DPO) look like?
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Anyway, what does the intensity gradation (aka DPO) look like?
Its existence is nowhere mentioned. So question is bit weird. If someone have claimed that there is intensity grading, then can ask what it looks like.
Usually I do not know what it looks like what do not exist. As also at this time.
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So it is worse than Rigol DS1000Z in this aspect. https://youtu.be/580izt-2jWk?t=1m46s
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I wonder what that CINCH-like connector is for. Well, it is a video output.
http://www.tomtronix.pl/owon/xds.aspx (http://www.tomtronix.pl/owon/xds.aspx)
Have you seen this manual?
http://www.owon.com.hk/probook/XDS3000_Series_Oscilloscopes_QUICK_GUIDE.pdf (http://www.owon.com.hk/probook/XDS3000_Series_Oscilloscopes_QUICK_GUIDE.pdf)
http://www.tomtronix.pl/pub/d_owon/karty/XDS_oscyloskopy_kk_ang.pdf (http://www.tomtronix.pl/pub/d_owon/karty/XDS_oscyloskopy_kk_ang.pdf)
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About 8bit and 12bit ADC mode.
Single shots using 8bit and 12bit ADC mode.
Both single shots zoomed horizontally 10x and vertically 10x
12bit frequency response is full of course, it is not at all like ERES or poor box car "hi-res".
In 8bit zoomed image can see clearly that vertically one div is 25 levels. (2.5 in zoomed)
Owon vertical 10div display have 250 8bit ADC levels from 256 full scale.
12bit ADC mode true 12bit res staircase figure can not naturally reach due to sum of noises etc. Also fit to display resolution may produce some efect.
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Hi RF-LOOP,
Can you repeat these tests with a time base setting of 10 or 100nS/div ?
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Hi RF-LOOP,
Can you repeat these tests with a time base setting of 10 or 100nS/div ?
Here 100ns/div
8bit
first normal run - still image (it need note that because it is still image, live visual effect is different - more or less.)
then single shot
after then this single shot zoomed vertically 10x using V/div
after then zoomed also horizontally 10x using t/div
12bit
normal run
single shot
then this single shot zoomed vertically 10x using V/div
after then zoomed also horizontally 10x using t/div
Then 10ns/div
8bit
normal run
single shot
then this single shot zoomed vertically 10x using V/div
after then zoomed also horizontally 5x using t/div (min is 2ns/div)
12bit
normal run
single shot
then this single shot zoomed vertically 10x using V/div
after then zoomed also horizontally 5x using t/div
Signal, levels etc selected so that fixed Sin(x)/x affect as little as possible. This can not turn off.
In these images this can see clearly in images fx and fy. (note this effect can not see in run mode)
I hope Owon develop FW so that user can turn Sinc on and off when ever he want, also in stop mode and also so that scope then show only true sample datapoints and then also line (vector) mode where just only these true sampled points are connected usin straight line. Now user is out from reality.
Also when do Sinc, it must never draw trace what do not go through true real raw sampled datapoints as some toys may do.
It looks like Owon follow this rule number 1 but it is difficult to confirm because it do not show what are real true raw datapoints from ADC.. Also in some situations vector and or real dot mode is useful. Owon dot mode is not pure real. Scope FW add some intermadiate points betwwen real points but it do not mark real points example highlighting them.. )
With some cheap 8 bit scopes it is (perhaps) difficult to get visible quite clean 8bit ADC staircase...
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Looks like a real 12bit system then.
Thanks for all your testing rf-loop, this gives a good insight of the DAC of the scope.
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Here 100ns/div
The 12-bit results look very good indeed.
But what the heck are these extra transitions/spikes in the 3rd image (bx-100n-8b-single-Vzoom10) ?
That doesn't look right for my tasting...
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Here 100ns/div
The 12-bit results look very good indeed.
But what the heck are these extra transitions/spikes in the 3rd image (bx-100n-8b-single-Vzoom10) ?
That doesn't look right for my tasting...
Of course they are normal. If you read theory books where they show ideal ADC with clean steps for every 256 steps staircase for 8bit ADC output this do not exist in nature in circuit. Of course there is noise so that it may randomly switch example between level 133 and 134 if analog level is somewhere between these levels (or near) There is noise inside ADC chip, there is noise in analog signal what go to ADC. Just LSB flickering. One important noise is example transition noise. It need also know that these kind of ADC's are very different than slow speed precision ADC's. In this picture it is sampling 500000000 times (to memory) in one second because it flush one sample and keep one. Native speed is of course 1000000000 samples in second. With this kind of speed result is not always perfect.
Some comments in images (images are same before)
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Hi RF-Loop, thanks a lot for the effort!
I certainly understand your point. It's probably just because I'd somehow expected a 12-bit ADC in 8-bit mode to exhibit less noise than a genuine 8-bit ADC - or something like that. On top of that, I cannot remember I'd ever seen something like this before - then again it's probably because I never explicitly did a test like this.
So what you say makes perfectly sense and for some reason I expected too much, which was indeed not justified.
Maybe I get time at the weekend to play with some scopes to repeat your test.
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Hi RF-Loop, thanks a lot for the effort!
I certainly understand your point. It's probably just because I'd somehow expected a 12-bit ADC in 8-bit mode to exhibit less noise than a genuine 8-bit ADC - or something like that.
XDS3102A 8/12bit ADC data sheet (https://www.hittite.com/content/documents/data_sheet/hmcad1520.pdf)
Btw. XDS3102A do not have fan! Just silence...
It was wrong. There IS fan. Explained later on other place.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmtP4ETicLg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmtP4ETicLg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34qnD5R-_7k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34qnD5R-_7k)
Looks nice, but it has no DPO feature like Rigol DS2000 or DS1000Z
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<rant>I made the mistake and imported an Owon scope (forgot the model number) approximately eight years ago from the US. It was so such a piece of junk, it went to Ebay 10 minutes after arrival. I was lucky to sell it quickly for roughly the same I purchased if for ... and I felt so bad to sell it to someone because the quality (buildt quality, hardware&software) was worse than I could ever imagine.
I never ever looked at any Owon thread again since today. It seems they improved a bit, but as I very seldom have needs for 12 bit resolution I will pass and stay with my Agisight ...??? ... eh Keylent ...??? .... ah Keysight!
Sorry Owon - you missed your one and only chance to win me as a customer.
</rant>
Guys, don't become influenced by this - it might be acceptable or even good today - I don't know. I just felt some tension/pressure to rant as I just remembered the long-ago scope-purchase. ;D
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Looks interesting, but no 4 Channel Models? Not good.
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I wonder what that CINCH-like connector is for. Well, it is a video output.
http://www.tomtronix.pl/owon/xds.aspx (http://www.tomtronix.pl/owon/xds.aspx)
Have you seen this manual?
http://www.owon.com.hk/probook/XDS3000_Series_Oscilloscopes_QUICK_GUIDE.pdf (http://www.owon.com.hk/probook/XDS3000_Series_Oscilloscopes_QUICK_GUIDE.pdf)
http://www.tomtronix.pl/pub/d_owon/karty/XDS_oscyloskopy_kk_ang.pdf (http://www.tomtronix.pl/pub/d_owon/karty/XDS_oscyloskopy_kk_ang.pdf)
For signal generator module, has 2 channels. Was clearly an after thought, as outputs are in the rear, instead of routing signal to the front.
The multimeter is a joke at best 4000 counts and no True RMS.
Owon DSO's are usually very slow and buggy. Usually only useful as a portable scope if needed. The 12-bit ADC is interesting, but curious if it a real 12-bit system?
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Owon DSO's are usually very slow and buggy. Usually only useful as a portable scope if needed.
The 12-bit ADC is interesting, but curious if it a real 12-bit system?
Slow, yes if look wfm/s maximum update rates in models what are conventional series processing acquire-display-acquire... DSO's. And previously most known Owon models have been just these. Example old SDS series. But also this is not only one "truth" thing.
But example UI, it is quite fast if compare example Rigol.
Buggy? What any serious real bug or bugs you know example in 2015 SDS7102 HW equipped with newest FW. Opinions where some things may design to work different or better are many times so that one like orange and one like real banana and one like somee kind of banana looks like yellow something with chiquita label.
I have years experience with using Owon SDS7102, Rigol DS1000E, Hantek 5000B, Siglent SDS1000xL models, then more new Rigol DS1000Z, Siglent SDS2000, Owon XDS3000, Siglent SDS1000X... also ancient nearly 10 year old Owon PDS5000 series and at this time my opinion was... I want never hear agen this Company...if I look oscilloscope for my own use. (just like @Pinkus)
and of course tons of different Tektronix, HP/Agilent, etc...
Some may tell I have seller bias. Yes I have. Selling sequipments as some kind of sidework what give perhaps 1% push me to biased seller status. 99% is do work and use equipments just as tools as hammer or saw. In this meaning they are nothing more... exept out from this 1%+99% salary earning... there is hobby, and this is really bad and terrible situation...hobby is same as main work for salary for living...and for use for hobby purposes...
About if ADC is true 12 bit or not.
Answer is here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-owon-xds-oscilloscopes/msg771702/#msg771702 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-owon-xds-oscilloscopes/msg771702/#msg771702)
Perhaps it is good practice to read even some previous messages.... ;)
XDS3000-A have 12bit ADC and Acquisition system and XDS3000 have 8bit.
(http://www.analog.com/error/400.gif)
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Some tiny test with "Bus" trigger mode for detect if there is any hope for good serial decode. There is, bus trigger works rock solid and also lenght of record is nice but I hope it is so also with decode option. At this time test with RS232 because continuous data stream was available (from allways on GPSDO). I can not test how decode works because I do not have this Option (yet).
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x2/aghp55/OWONXDS/XDS3102A-Wi-Fi-in-use.png)
Because saving images to USB keep always save menu visible I have set scope for Wi-Fi connection.
Also it looks like it do not drop out randomly some display layers out from saved image as direct save to USB do, due to some bug. Sidenote: My XDS is with touch panel and it can use also fully mixed with buttons and ttouch. In some cases it is handy but need some experience first.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x2/aghp55/OWONXDS/XDS3102A-RS232-set-for-171.png)
Trigger is set for Bus and selected bus RS232. There I have selected Data trigger and set it trig for byte value 171 (decimal)
Note also what is whole timebase and memory.
Data stream is one message every second. Message lenght is in this case around 93 bytes. Speed is 9600 baud and 8 databits
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x2/aghp55/OWONXDS/XDS3102A-run-171-persistence.png)
Continue running it using infinite persistence. Just: Rock solid. After two 0 bytes there is changing data what can see right side of zoomed window.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x2/aghp55/OWONXDS/XDS3102A-RS232-set-for-0-run-with-persistence.png)
Set trig for first byte what value is 0. Rock solid.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x2/aghp55/OWONXDS/XDS3102A-RS232-set-for-143.png)
Set trig for first byte what value is 143 (Decimal). Rock solid.
I do not have nice RS232 test string generator where can also simulate errors and set data string for what ever size and speed and data. But this tiny test is enough for give feel that I want test more. But I do not waste time for this bus trigger alone more because it looks well made. Important is now to know how Decode works. Trigger (bus mode) works rock solid so now it is least possible that Decode also works. Without perfect trig there is not hope.
I hope I can get soon Serial Bus Decode Option so I can do some tests how it decode and how is its useability.
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Any software updates from Owon in the mean time for the XDS series?
What about more users on this forum who have purchased the XDS series and can provide feedback on how good the scope performs?
I want to learn more about this scope and understand if it performs well.
Is the 12-bit really 12-bit? I read that they also plan a model within XDS series that has 14-bit.
Would that be a new ADC or some kind of interpolation they use to tune it up to 14-bit?
What about serial decoding in the last software version? Does it now work in the same way as in the Rigol DS2000A series or the GW-Instek GDS-2000E series?
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Is the 12-bit really 12-bit?
I think you can only write. How is about reading?
Just previously in this same thread: Reply #57
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I have checked my serial number on OWON's web site for updates, no updates are available. I think they have released updates for JP language, and some functionality. They seem to be really be lacking in the quality assurance, no one has any idea what firmware is currently the latest. Not professional performance from a company.
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It is well understood that the Owon XDS has a real 12-bit AD converter.
But in the table on their website they also speak about 14-bit in the XDS3202A model.
Does that mean yet another more powerful ADC in that particular model?
http://www.owon.com.hk/products_info.asp?ProID=182 (http://www.owon.com.hk/products_info.asp?ProID=182)
Does the 200 MHz version scope, only provide 1 GS/s on the 14-bit model, even when used in 8-bit mode?
Or does it also provide 2 GS/s when using 8-bit mode, just like the 8-bit model?
This is not clear from the table. IMO it should support 2 GS/s if you are not using the 12-bit mode or 14-bit mode.
Does the 300 MHz version of the scope, model XDS3302 not provide 12-bit and 14-bit modes?
This is not clear from the table. IMO it should support 12-bit and 14-bit, but in lower sample rates.
Or is that only for the A-version? Why is there no A-version for the 300 MHz version?
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Recently there has been a big hype about the new R&S scope with a 10-bit ADC chip (RTB2004).
But Owon had a 12-bit ADC and 14-bit ADC in their XDS series for a very long time already!
Maybe Dave Jones should do a review on the Owon XDS series, to check the accuracy of the 12-bit and 14-bit ADC models! :)
R&S goes 10-bit: Big attention from everybody in the community.
Owon had 12-bit and 14-bit for a very long time: They should get more attention and respect for this! :)
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Owon had 12-bit and 14-bit for a very long time: They should get more attention and respect for this! :)
Isn't Owon an even worse bugfest than Siglent? Nobody seems to want to touch Owon scopes.
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i remember i was checking the documentation. couldn't find if any model supported decodes or not. terrible, terrible website (and documentation)
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They might be sending me one.
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Don't forget the knock test when you get it ;)
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GW-Instek, Siglent, Rigol, Keysight and Tektronix had their fair share of video reviews.
But when was the last time there was a video review about an Owon oscilloscope on the EEVblog? :)
If there's something strange in your neighborhood
Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters!
If there's something weird and it don't look good
Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters!
If there's an oscilloscope missing in the video reviews
Who you gonna call? Owon! =)
Dave: Can you give Owon a call, and have them shipped their top of the line XDS series oscilloscope for a video review about the performance of the 12-bit and 14-bit ADC mode? :)
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Recently there has been a big hype about the new R&S scope with a 10-bit ADC chip (RTB2004).
But Owon had a 12-bit ADC and 14-bit ADC in their XDS series for a very long time already!
*cough cough* sample rate *cough*
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Most people are going to hate the name. Cheap shit that is all. It will have to take a while of slow improvements to be taking on face value. They seem confident about this to give it to Dave to Tear-down and give it a shitty thumbs down. Will have to wait and see.
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They might be sending me one.
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Don't forget the knock test when you get it ;)
Having been in the mail for close to two years, I'm sure the scope will have received its share of knocking. :P
Seriously -- this thread is quite old; I doubt Owon will send an evaluation unit of this "new" scope to Dave any time soon!
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Looks like it happened
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByUiOk00K0U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByUiOk00K0U)
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From the video, it appears that the 20 MHz filter is forced on when the channel is set to 50-Ohm input.
Funny that the Ch1 button's LED is red, but the trace is yellow. ;D
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From the video, it appears that the 20 MHz filter is forced on when the channel is set to 50-Ohm input.
Hello,
I think is is for sensitive input settings in 12bit mode because noise.
Best regards
egonotto