Author Topic: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series  (Read 99479 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 630
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #225 on: May 31, 2019, 06:30:39 pm »
Here is another screenshot of the steps in sine wave. This is for a 1 Hz 20Vpp wave. DG811 is yellow, 33500B is blue. If I didn't know any better, I would say at first glance DG811 is not really a 16-bit sine wave, more like 13 bit. But it is due to 2^15 time steps. The Keysight has 4 times as many, 2^17 steps.



This affects only low-frequency sine signals. For frequencies above 7.6kHz one cannot output more than 2^15 steps anyway at 250MS/sec.  Still, generating high-fidelity signals in the audio band is something it should be capable of doing. So hopefully Rigol can address this with a firmware upgrade. Do you know who on this forum represents Rigol?
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, ogden

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2854
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #226 on: May 31, 2019, 08:27:33 pm »
This affects only low-frequency sine signals. For frequencies above 7.6kHz one cannot output more than 2^15 steps anyway at 250MS/sec.  Still, generating high-fidelity signals in the audio band is something it should be capable of doing. So hopefully Rigol can address this with a firmware upgrade. Do you know who on this forum represents Rigol?

Oh good point I didn't consider the frequency aspect of that. No one on this forum represents Rigol, but I have updated my case that it would only effect lower frequencies (250M/32768 = 7.6kHz).

They must have something in the software already to decimate the 15-bit calculations when outputting, say a 30MHz sine right? So hopefully its not too hard to add.
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2854
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #227 on: June 01, 2019, 12:17:35 am »
Response:

Quote
The 16 bit refers always to the voltage levels not the time base.

The DG800 has a variable time base in reality. The standard waveform functions like sine wave have a standard about 32K length to the table that defines them. This is much deeper that our other instruments actually.

The way we talk about what you are asking about is really memory depth. The memory depth of the standard waves varies from 9000 or so up to what you are seeing. But the arb mode enables waves as deep as 8 Million points. So, you can create a 1 Hz signal that changes every 125 nanoseconds if you need.

Sounds like they store all of the pre-computed waveforms in flash (faster to load?).
So I don't expect an improvement to be made here. If we need a better signal, we have to create it in Arb. timber23's GUI could be modified to load a high-res ARB version, instead of using the internal waveform, for example.

Keysight 33500B is ~$3,400 btw, even most expensive DG992 is only $1000. I guess its asking for a bit much.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 12:21:39 am by thm_w »
 

Offline maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 630
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #228 on: June 01, 2019, 05:57:40 am »
I think the problem comes when you need a sine wave with an odd frequency, like 7 Hz, that is not a multiple of the clock rate. I am not sure if the arbitrary wave has the Si-Fi interpolation, so one ends up with some time jitter.

A used Keysight 33500B is about $1200, so the "upgrade" path is the only way that DG800 makes sense.
 

Offline maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 630
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #229 on: June 03, 2019, 02:35:06 pm »
Here is a comparison of DG811 (yellow Ch1) with DG4162 (blue Ch2) outputing 20Vpp, 1 Hz sine wave.
One can see that DG4162 uses 2^16 time steps. Even though it is has a 14-bit ADC, the steps are smaller than in DG811.

Its funny that so far every generator (DG811, 33500B, DG4162) I looked at has a glitch when the sine wave crosses zero. Why can't anyone program a sine wave without a bug.
 
The following users thanked this post: commongrounder, thm_w

Offline tv84

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2353
  • Country: pt
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #230 on: June 03, 2019, 02:49:26 pm »
Its funny that so far every generator (DG811, 33500B, DG4162) I looked at has a glitch when the sine wave crosses zero. Why can't anyone program a sine wave without a bug.

Maybe the problem it's not on the DG's side...  ::)
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1636
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #231 on: June 03, 2019, 04:30:17 pm »
... just curious, is there also a comparison with Rigols 1062Z somewhere ?
 

Offline Sighound36

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 376
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #232 on: June 03, 2019, 05:56:43 pm »
Sorry if this sounds a tad simple, why not just upgrade the clock and localized decoupling as the unit is only a few hundred $ maybe that way the software may have less to re assemble at its critical point? or is that just to pie in the sky?

On the 822 unit we have, happy to undertake the work on this.
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2854
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #233 on: June 03, 2019, 09:55:22 pm »
Sorry if this sounds a tad simple, why not just upgrade the clock and localized decoupling as the unit is only a few hundred $ maybe that way the software may have less to re assemble at its critical point? or is that just to pie in the sky?

On the 822 unit we have, happy to undertake the work on this.

Please explain further, upgrade which clock and decoupling to improve what? I don't think digital decoupling will change anything here.
If a better reference clock is needed, then you can feed 10MHz into the back of the instrument.
 

Offline tv84

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2353
  • Country: pt
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #234 on: June 04, 2019, 09:28:24 pm »
 
The following users thanked this post: bitseeker

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2854
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #235 on: June 04, 2019, 10:23:34 pm »
Added all DG800 SCPI commands here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lists-of-rigol-scpi-commands/

Thanks, I  put the "hidden" commands from your list in that thread.

Some of the interesting ones (response on the right):
:PROJect:PWM:FREQuency? -> '2'
:PROJect:PWM:FINe:CH? -> '0.000'
:PROJect:PWM:LEVel:CH? -> '0.000'

Ones that can only be written:
:PROJect:KEY
:PROJect:DAC:AMP:CH
:PROJect:DAC:OFFSet:CH
:PROJect:MODE
:PROJect:SN

Calibration stuff (I can't read anything back, seems like its just write commands?)

:SOURce<n>:CALibration:RANGNUM
:SOURce<n>:CALibration:SETVALUE
:SOURce<n>:CALibration:MEASVALUE
:SOURce<n>:CALibration:STORE
:SOURce<n>:CALibration:RECALL
:SOURce<n>:CALibration:PRESet
:SOURce<n>:CALibration:DATE
:SOURce<n>:CALibration:HIGHest

Unsure if any of the PROJ commands other than MODEl need a USB key inserted to work.
edit: guide is here btw, I'm impressed that there are ~470 SCPI commands/queries.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 10:27:05 pm by thm_w »
 
The following users thanked this post: bitseeker

Offline maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 630
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #236 on: June 09, 2019, 01:10:56 pm »
Here are some time jitter std. measurements for a square wave. Both function generators are locked to the oven clock of the HP53310A. DG811 works reasonably well until one gets to low frequencies.

              33500B   DG811
10 Hz         56 ps     396 ps
100 Hz        45 ps      58 ps
10 MHz        42 ps      40 ps

10.1 Hz      292 ps     924 ps
100.1 Hz     107 ps     509 ps

7 MHz        104 ps     147 ps
15 MHz        52 ps     134 ps
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 01:15:13 pm by maxwell3e10 »
 
The following users thanked this post: commongrounder, thm_w, bd139

Offline drummerdimitri

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 521
  • Country: lb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #237 on: July 08, 2019, 11:47:47 pm »
Can anyone please make a video showing how to "hack" a DG8XX to a DG992 as I've been reading the instructions posted on here and it's like I'm reading Chinese  :palm:
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2854
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #238 on: July 09, 2019, 01:25:31 am »
Can anyone please make a video showing how to "hack" a DG8XX to a DG992 as I've been reading the instructions posted on here and it's like I'm reading Chinese  :palm:

So where are you running into issues with tv84s post, let us know:

- Have you tried creating the USB key (1GB or larger)?
- Did you download HxD or dd program attempt to modify the drive?
- Do you know how to send SCPI commands to the instrument?

Someone posted a USB image file but can't find the post at the moment.

edit here is the image post: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/need-help-hacking-dp832-for-multicolour-option/msg2475702/#msg2475702
beware it will re-partition the USB drive to ~32MB (but can be undone with diskpart -> clean in windows if needed).
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 10:23:19 pm by thm_w »
 

Offline drummerdimitri

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 521
  • Country: lb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #239 on: July 09, 2019, 09:37:39 am »
Can anyone please make a video showing how to "hack" a DG8XX to a DG992 as I've been reading the instructions posted on here and it's like I'm reading Chinese  :palm:

So where are you running into issues with tv84s post, let us know:

- Have you tried creating the USB key (1GB or larger)?
- Did you download HxD or dd program attempt to modify the drive?
- Do you know how to send SCPI commands to the instrument?

Someone posted a USB image file but can't find the post at the moment.

I have a 64 GB flash drive that is formated as NTFS is this correct or does it need to be FAT32?
I did download HxD but I have no clue how to use it or what to modify in the drive.
I have no idea how to send SCPI commands. I'm assuming those will be sent through the back USB port?

The instructions aren't clear for someone who's never had a crack at this type of thing.
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2854
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #240 on: July 09, 2019, 09:05:58 pm »
Bought a cheap adapter and it works OK: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32945323919.html (check out the text on the front)
Chipset is 8152B, so part of the drivers mentioned earlier in this thread.

The clearance across the isolation gap is not very good. Shouldn't matter much for this use.

I have a 64 GB flash drive that is formated as NTFS is this correct or does it need to be FAT32?
I did download HxD but I have no clue how to use it or what to modify in the drive.
I have no idea how to send SCPI commands. I'm assuming those will be sent through the back USB port?

The instructions aren't clear for someone who's never had a crack at this type of thing.

No it should be FAT32, I would recommend finding an older smaller USB key if you have one but that might work.
- Download HxD, run the program, select Tools -> Open Disk -> uncheck "open as readonly" at the bottom -> Select the USB drive (make sure it says Removable Disk as type) and click OK
- At the top where it says Sector, enter 2000000 and press enter
- Copy the magic bytes from tv84's sardinha bin file (0B0A3B2E5F4CECBE), on the top select Edit and then "Paste write"
- Click Save
- Eject USB key
- Plug USB key into back of instrument, it will show the USB symbol in the top right if its detected. You can see if the drive can be opened in the DG800 menu if you like as well, but it won't indicate if it is the magic key or not.

You can send SCPI commands with USB on the back port yes, or ethernet with adapter.

https://hackaday.com/2016/11/16/how-to-control-your-instruments-from-a-computer-its-easier-than-you-think/
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/ca/driver-pages/remote-control/instruments-drivers-vs.-plain-scpi-commands_231246.html
https://github.com/eez-open/studio (only works with ethernet)
 
The following users thanked this post: drummerdimitri, ogden, timber23

Offline maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 630
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #241 on: July 09, 2019, 10:42:00 pm »
Slightly off-topic, but I have been looking for a small VISA implementation to send SCPI commands over USB. How many MB of code does it take to tell the computer to send an ASCII string over USB?
R&S have a 30 MB VISA implementation
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/ca/driver-pages/remote-control/3-visa-and-tools_231388.html
which is better than Tektronix and Keysight, that seem to be around 100 MB.

Does anyone know any other simple stand-alone VISA application?
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Offline drummerdimitri

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 521
  • Country: lb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #242 on: July 09, 2019, 11:17:43 pm »
Bought a cheap adapter and it works OK: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32945323919.html (check out the text on the front)
Chipset is 8152B, so part of the drivers mentioned earlier in this thread.

The clearance across the isolation gap is not very good. Shouldn't matter much for this use.

I have a 64 GB flash drive that is formated as NTFS is this correct or does it need to be FAT32?
I did download HxD but I have no clue how to use it or what to modify in the drive.
I have no idea how to send SCPI commands. I'm assuming those will be sent through the back USB port?

The instructions aren't clear for someone who's never had a crack at this type of thing.

No it should be FAT32, I would recommend finding an older smaller USB key if you have one but that might work.
- Download HxD, run the program, select Tools -> Open Disk -> uncheck "open as readonly" at the bottom -> Select the USB drive (make sure it says Removable Disk as type) and click OK
- At the top where it says Sector, enter 2000000 and press enter
- Copy the magic bytes from tv84's sardinha bin file (0B0A3B2E5F4CECBE), on the top select Edit and then "Paste write"
- Click Save
- Eject USB key
- Plug USB key into back of instrument, it will show the USB symbol in the top right if its detected. You can see if the drive can be opened in the DG800 menu if you like as well, but it won't indicate if it is the magic key or not.

You can send SCPI commands with USB on the back port yes, or ethernet with adapter.

https://hackaday.com/2016/11/16/how-to-control-your-instruments-from-a-computer-its-easier-than-you-think/
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/ca/driver-pages/remote-control/instruments-drivers-vs.-plain-scpi-commands_231246.html
https://github.com/eez-open/studio (only works with ethernet)

Thanks for that quite helpful!

I was able to edit the USB as mentioned above and the USB icon showed up on the main screen of my DG811 but I'm confused about why anyone would need a USB to Ethernet adapter as it doesnt have a LAN port  :-//

Anyway, since I only have a windows PC and that link seems to be for raspberry Pi, how to I send the commands via USB connected to my PC?

 

Offline maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 630
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #243 on: July 09, 2019, 11:29:25 pm »
Anyway, since I only have a windows PC and that link seems to be for raspberry Pi, how to I send the commands via USB connected to my PC?
Download R&S VISA (see link above) and use their Tester tool to send the commands
 

Offline maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 630
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #244 on: July 11, 2019, 09:53:41 pm »
I found this minimalistic USBTMC implementation with a windows command-line interface:
https://github.com/xyphro/WinUsbTmc

I installed the driver and it recognizes the device is connected, but so far I haven't been able to make it work.
 

Offline drummerdimitri

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 521
  • Country: lb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #245 on: July 13, 2019, 11:18:25 am »
Anyway, since I only have a windows PC and that link seems to be for raspberry Pi, how to I send the commands via USB connected to my PC?
Download R&S VISA (see link above) and use their Tester tool to send the commands

I did but have no idea how to use the software.
 

Offline maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 630
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #246 on: July 13, 2019, 11:54:42 am »
Start Tester 32 bit, go find resources menu and click find resource. The generator should show up as USB:...
Then click on it and click connect. In the text window on the right type *IDN?\n, click query and  see if it responds. If not, go to Choose visa implementation menu and try different options then disconnect and connect again. Once it responds to *IDN?\n command, then you can execute other commands.
 
The following users thanked this post: drummerdimitri

Offline drummerdimitri

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 521
  • Country: lb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #247 on: July 13, 2019, 02:14:22 pm »
Start Tester 32 bit, go find resources menu and click find resource. The generator should show up as USB:...
Then click on it and click connect. In the text window on the right type *IDN?\n, click query and  see if it responds. If not, go to Choose visa implementation menu and try different options then disconnect and connect again. Once it responds to *IDN?\n command, then you can execute other commands.

Ok so I was able to configure the software to get a response from my DG811.

Now what's the next step to convert it into a DG992?
 

Offline maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 630
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #248 on: July 13, 2019, 02:57:13 pm »
Now you are just one step away! Send

:PROJ:MODE DG992\n

and then restart the generator.
 

Offline drummerdimitri

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 521
  • Country: lb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #249 on: July 13, 2019, 03:26:15 pm »
Now you are just one step away! Send

:PROJ:MODE DG992\n

and then restart the generator.

I tried that but nothing happened still showing DG811 :wtf:

I must be missing a step what about that DG800_sardinha.bin file? Surely I must have used it somewhere but didn't.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf