Author Topic: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series  (Read 20191 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« on: September 11, 2018, 04:35:23 pm »
It looks like Rigol released a new series of function generators with 16-bit vertical resolution. The models range from DG811 - 1 channel 10 MHz for $279 to DG992 - 2 channel 100 MHz for $1000.
DG822 -2 channel 25 MHz with 10 MHz square wave and 125 MSa/s for $329 might be the sweet spot.

I've been looking recently at high vertical resolution generators, so I am curious how the new Rigol ones would compare with SDG2042X and Keysight 33522B.
 

Offline Kuba_eM

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
  • Country: pl
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2018, 04:53:10 pm »
but the look is like a horror movie ...
 
The following users thanked this post: Circlotron, GlowingGhoul, jjoonathan, KungFuJosh, iliasp

Offline simone.pignatti

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 316
  • Country: it
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2018, 04:57:03 pm »
well, launch date is tomorrow September the 12th :)
DG800 and DG900 are entry level models not to compete with SDG2000X or 33522B.

DG800 data sheet
https://www.batterfly.com/PDF/RIGOL/DG8e9/DG800_Datasheet_EN.pdf

DG900 data sheet
https://www.batterfly.com/PDF/RIGOL/DG8e9/DG900_Datasheet_EN.pdf
Technical Support
 
The following users thanked this post: Marco1971

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2018, 07:09:39 pm »
DG800 and DG900 are entry level models not to compete with SDG2000X or 33522B.

They all have SiFi II/True Arb/TrueForm that is supposed to improve waveform fidelity and reduce jitter.
It would be interesting to compare their approaches to waveform interpolation and just the cleanliness of a sine wave on a spectrum analyzer. 

DG800 datasheet says 200 ps jitter or 5 ps jitter depending on the filter for arbitrary waveform. SDG2000X datasheet says 150 ps jitter, no additional filter. 33522B says 40 ps to 5 ps, depending on filter.
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15695
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2018, 07:52:45 pm »
It looks like Rigol released a new series of function generators with 16-bit vertical resolution. The models range from DG811 - 1 channel 10 MHz for $279 to DG992 - 2 channel 100 MHz for $1000.
DG822 -2 channel 25 MHz with 10 MHz square wave and 125 MSa/s for $329 might be the sweet spot.


SDG1032X is 150 MSa, 14 bit and does square to 30 MHz for just a few $ more. SDG1062X goes to 60 MHz square wave.
SDG2042X is 1.2 GSa, 16 bit and does square wave to 25 MHz.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12068
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2018, 08:00:57 pm »
SDG2042X is 1.2 GSa, 16 bit and does square wave to 25 MHz.

Did you miss a zero?
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15695
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2018, 08:07:14 pm »
SDG2042X is 1.2 GSa, 16 bit and does square wave to 25 MHz.

Did you miss a zero?
Nope.
Sine is only 40 MHz on that model but for those that want to hack them it can be improved to 120 MHz (SDG2122X) but still square is 25 MHz.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 
The following users thanked this post: blueskull

Offline ogden

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2461
  • Country: lv
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2018, 08:56:02 pm »
Booby prize of design awards goes to... Rigol 16-bit function generator!!!!

:palm:

Design with every new instrument is getting worse. They shall check mental health of designers and product decision makers ASAP.
 
The following users thanked this post: blackdog, kony, GlowingGhoul

Offline blackdog

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 580
  • Country: nl
  • Please stop pushing bullshit...
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2018, 09:13:43 pm »
Hi,
For anyone who does not know yet, necessary for a good square wave representation, at least 10x more bandwidth is required than for a sinus.

So if the generator has a maximum sine frequency of 40MHz then at least 400MHZ bandwidth is needed from the DAC and the amplifier steps behind this.
For a really nice block reproduction I usually use 15x the bandwidth.

Yes i know, live sucks  :-DD

Do not forget to check the max output level, at the max Frequency of the generator, and get dissapointed (almost all generators have a  mutch lower output level at the higer frequency)

Kind regards,
Bram
“Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe.”
 
The following users thanked this post: KA3YAN, eplpwr

Offline MikeP

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 92
  • Country: ua
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2018, 09:16:28 pm »
 Total Harmonic Distortion[1] <0.075% (10 Hz to 20 kHz)
 It 's about -63dB.  :wtf:
 

Online Pinkus

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 599
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2018, 09:45:50 pm »
Booby prize of design awards goes to... Rigol 16-bit function generator!!!!

:palm:

Design with every new instrument is getting worse. They shall check mental health of designers and product decision makers ASAP.
But you have to keep in mind that they designed the case so that the air can circulate, even if the device is next to or under other devices. That's why a fanless design was possible.
Thats: +1
Also: real power switch: +1

I do not mind the look of the back of a housing a lot, as long as the front (which I am seeing all the time and I am working with) is fine.

They still use different shapes of buttons, but I would be able to tolerate it here as (probably because of the lack of more buttons) the design is clear and not crowded. They could have done worse.

 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29468
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2018, 10:16:03 pm »
Someone was thinking

 

Offline Daruosha

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 167
  • Country: ir
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2018, 10:46:03 pm »
Booby prize of design awards goes to... Rigol 16-bit function generator!!!!

:palm:

Design with every new instrument is getting worse. They shall check mental health of designers and product decision makers ASAP.

Are these AWGs designed for gamers? Somebody please find the head designer and slap him as hard as possible in the face! WTF!! Look at the top of the unit in the datasheets.  |O :-DD

« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 05:54:08 am by Daruosha »
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1291
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2018, 11:08:31 pm »
Are these AWGs are designed for gamers? Somebody please find the head designer and slap him as hard as possible in the face! WTF!! Look at the top of the unit in the datasheets.  |O :-DD

It looks a bit wild, but if something else is stacked on top (it seems like it is designed to accommodate this), then you won't even see the top.

Consider how often people here compare about fan noise for hobbyist instruments, it seems like they are catering directly to that audience. Of course this could be done without the wild stylings too.
 

Offline DaJMasta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1535
  • Country: us
    • medpants.com
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2018, 11:39:49 pm »
Fanless is great, crazy gaming PC design doesn't match anything on my bench.  I don't really think industrial equipment needs to look scifi (or have SciFi II tech  :-DD) or be super edgy.... at least no RGB lights.


Doesn't seem like incredible pricing, but it's about competitive and the waveform memory seems big, hopefully they have a lot of built in modes and patterns.


EDIT: oh actually the 800 series looks much more like a bit of test gear.  Maybe there's some LeCroy bench where the 900 fits in terms of color, at least, but the DG900 wouldn't fit next to their own brand new DS7000.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 11:41:56 pm by DaJMasta »
 

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2018, 02:45:15 am »
Wrong design for the market, but at least the buttons/labels all face the same direction (looking at you, DS7000!).
I TEA.
 

Online xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3992
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>?
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2018, 03:18:14 am »
How can I set my coffee cup on top of that?  :(
I am a Test Equipment Addict (TEA) - by virtue of this forum signature, I have now faced my addiction
 

Online TurboTom

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 592
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2018, 05:23:11 am »
How can I set my coffee cup on top of that?  :(

Have Rigol design a coffe cup ?   8)
 

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2018, 05:28:21 am »
 :-DD Good one, Tom. Maybe the gen will keep it warm for you, too — but only warm :P.
I TEA.
 

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2018, 06:10:04 am »
So since it doesn't make any fan noise anymore, maybe searching for "noise DG822" in the future will instead reveal more results on how well the 16-bit ADC is working.
 

Offline maukka

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 86
  • Country: fi
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2018, 06:19:25 am »
One unlisted Youtube video on the product page:

 
The following users thanked this post: Marco1971

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2018, 06:26:30 am »
Reminds me of the Flying Sub from the TV series, Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea.
I TEA.
 

Offline MrW0lf

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 921
  • Country: ee
    • lab!fyi
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2018, 06:37:24 am »


Are they trying to fly under the bug radar with this new stealth design ::)
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11967
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2018, 08:04:12 am »
If that tiny rocker switch is a real mains switch I can't see it lasting long
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11967
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2018, 08:07:08 am »
"seven bit 240MHz function generator".. I think they mean seven digit...
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline timgiles

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 237
  • Country: se
  • Programmer, DB architect
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2018, 08:47:13 am »
Kinda feel like the black 900 model should have gold plated connectors.... bit of a missed opportunity!
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1137
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2018, 09:22:41 am »
Help ! Darth Vader tried to land on my lab desk !  >:D

Well, its an entry level thing. The 16bits look nice, but when you see the distortion specs they are 10dB worse than the DG1000Z series.
Output level and square wave data (risetime, max. frequency) is not spectacular, either.

I dont think I really need one of those ...
 

Online xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3992
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>?
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2018, 11:57:19 am »
How can I set my coffee cup on top of that?  :(

Have Rigol design a coffe cup ?   8)

I can see it coming - pure marketing genius from Rigol! They're leaning! :clap:
I am a Test Equipment Addict (TEA) - by virtue of this forum signature, I have now faced my addiction
 

Offline Andrew

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 19
  • Country: au
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2018, 01:09:49 pm »
If it uses "Natural Heat Dissipation Without Fan" then what does the internal fan do?

Page 11 of both datasheets "Cooling Method: Fan cooled"?
 

Online asmi

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 755
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2018, 01:17:37 pm »
I like the way it looks! Definitely 10000 times better than typical boring white boxes that other vendors are pumping out...
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 01:28:26 pm by asmi »
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1137
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2018, 01:40:04 pm »
If you like the design, I have some more suggestions for you:

- LED lighting like a gaming PC or car stereo that flickers in the rythm of output modulation
- breathing noises if the unit suffers from higher temperatures
- avaliability in all major neon colors
- a "special" edition in gold for the higher bandwidth models
- animated GUI with all kinds of beeps, grunts and sounds following your touchscreen inputs
- a "home entertainment" model with just 30dB harmonic suppression, but extra space invaders effects for a very attractive price.

 :-- |O :wtf: :palm: :palm: :palm:
 

Online asmi

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 755
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2018, 02:38:18 pm »
If you like the design, I have some more suggestions for you:
<skipped>
See ya guys are so boring, you can't even come up with good ideas! :-DD I love that Rigol doesn't listen to old farts who can't design any TME that doesn't look like a shoebox from $10 shoes off Walmart.
 

Offline snarkysparky

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 162
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2018, 03:16:25 pm »
But the Siglent SDG1032X has 16k point sample length.

rigol DG800 says 8 Meg points.   

Have to go with Rigol based on that.
 

Offline simone.pignatti

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 316
  • Country: it
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2018, 03:58:32 pm »
DG800 and DG900 are entry level models not to compete with SDG2000X or 33522B.

They all have SiFi II/True Arb/TrueForm that is supposed to improve waveform fidelity and reduce jitter.
It would be interesting to compare their approaches to waveform interpolation and just the cleanliness of a sine wave on a spectrum analyzer. 

DG800 datasheet says 200 ps jitter or 5 ps jitter depending on the filter for arbitrary waveform. SDG2000X datasheet says 150 ps jitter, no additional filter. 33522B says 40 ps to 5 ps, depending on filter.
take a look at tis video, the unit is tested by oscilloscope and spectrum analyzer

Technical Support
 

Online Kleinstein

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6102
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2018, 04:18:03 pm »
The case looks really odd. The form might help with cooling, but a would still prefer the classic square full metal box. At the usually low power passive cooling might still work in that form factor with sufficient vents.

For the noise I would prefer to have fan less cooling under normal conditions and a fan that sets in in a high temperature environment (e.g. hot rack, or high ambient).

The specs look not that bad.

For the square wave I wonder if they could offer a special square wave channel to provide just a square (maybe PWM) signal, up to higher frequencies. No need for ARB.
 

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2018, 04:50:44 pm »
"seven bit 240MHz function generator".. I think they mean seven digit...

Yes. This seems to be a growing trend in China. For some reason, they've adopted the word "bit" to mean "digit." I'm seeing it on more and more marketing materials and, when I asked one manufacturer about it, they said that "bit" is what "everyone" calls it. :palm:
I TEA.
 

Online xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3992
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>?
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2018, 05:05:44 pm »
Yes. This seems to be a growing trend in China. For some reason, they've adopted the word "bit" to mean "digit." I'm seeing it on more and more marketing materials and, when I asked one manufacturer about it, they said that "bit" is what "everyone" calls it. :palm:

Well when we look at your forum name - of course you would notice this.  :-DD
I am a Test Equipment Addict (TEA) - by virtue of this forum signature, I have now faced my addiction
 

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2018, 05:08:22 pm »
Yes. If I didn't notice, you'd be a bit disappointed. :-DD
I TEA.
 

Offline timgiles

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 237
  • Country: se
  • Programmer, DB architect
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2018, 06:07:53 pm »
Any news if Dave is getting hold of either for a tear down?
 

Offline blackdog

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 580
  • Country: nl
  • Please stop pushing bullshit...
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2018, 06:59:45 pm »
They must be kidding!!!!

WTF..., a real nice high performance puls, SiFi II Technology!


Dubble loaded output? two 50 Ohm cables on one output whoehhahaha
Who makes these videos, someone who has just left school? a video blogger...

Kind regards,
Bram



“Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe.”
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1137
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2018, 07:11:02 pm »
... I've seen it too. This, in a risetime range of a few nanoseconds, it simply silly.

A 50 Ohms power splitter or divider is absolutely neccessary for signal fidelity and freedom from cable reflections.

If you ask me, their scope and analyzer inputs are not perfect 50Ohms, either.

All the SiFi inside the instrument does not help against incompetent people sitting in front of it.  :palm:

 

Online Berni

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2326
  • Country: si
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2018, 05:47:59 am »
What i want to know is how good the signals look when you ask it to reproduce a weird frequency square wave such as 10.16456 MHz.

Does it make it jitter all over the place like most cheap arb signal generators?
 

Offline simone.pignatti

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 316
  • Country: it
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2018, 06:59:31 am »
What i want to know is how good the signals look when you ask it to reproduce a weird frequency square wave such as 10.16456 MHz.

Does it make it jitter all over the place like most cheap arb signal generators?
We get the units begin of next week then I will do some test using both RIGOL MSO/DS7000 and R&S RTM3000 and post the results.
Technical Support
 

Offline pilotchup

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 27
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2018, 07:18:04 am »
I don't understand the DG900 series. It appears to be pretty much inferior across the board when compared to Siglent SDG2000x series, a piece of gear that has been in the market for years? Both in price and specs. Especially when you consider the 2000x ability to be "unlocked" to the high end model.
I literally JUST bought a SDG2000x (almost went for the 6000x..) days ago, and after seeing this new Rigol device today.. I am really pretty confident in my decision to stay with Siglent.
I'm surprised Rigol isn't trying to be more competitive with a new product like this, either in specs or price, in respect to their MAIN competition, Siglent.

The look of the product does not bother me at all, I appreciate their attempt at styling because it at least makes sense - it was mostly made to allow a zero fan set up. They just tried to make it a bit more spiffy looking after they got the functional style set for having no fan and being stacked with other gear. At least they didn't make it as atrocious as their new 7000 series scope buttons/style.

The one thing I do not like, after watching that video above, is how the UI seems to work. Seems very bulky and annoying to actually use compared to other vendors. I appreciate Siglent's method of allowing usage using buttons or touch on their gens.

I don't know, seems like this one is a big let down for a company like Rigol. It's pretty crazy to say that, since thinking about the past this is an AMAZING amount of specs for the price.. but when you have Siglent out there now doing really well, it's hard to accept this as "good job Rigol". Oh well, I'm excited for a review & teardown nonetheless. Cheers!
 

Online Berni

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2326
  • Country: si
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2018, 07:22:03 am »

We get the units begin of next week then I will do some test using both RIGOL MSO/DS7000 and R&S RTM3000 and post the results.

Awesome, looking forward to it.

Hopefully one of the test gear vendors also gets to loan one to Dave (Don't think Rigol wants to work directly with him).
 

Offline simone.pignatti

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 316
  • Country: it
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2018, 07:24:40 am »

We get the units begin of next week then I will do some test using both RIGOL MSO/DS7000 and R&S RTM3000 and post the results.

Awesome, looking forward to it.

Hopefully one of the test gear vendors also gets to loan one to Dave (Don't think Rigol wants to work directly with him).
:-+ don't kill me if I do mistake on the video  :phew:
Technical Support
 

Offline timgiles

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 237
  • Country: se
  • Programmer, DB architect
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2018, 07:46:56 am »

We get the units begin of next week then I will do some test using both RIGOL MSO/DS7000 and R&S RTM3000 and post the results.

Awesome, looking forward to it.

Hopefully one of the test gear vendors also gets to loan one to Dave (Don't think Rigol wants to work directly with him).

Why dont Rigol want to play ball with Dave?
 

Offline rf-loop

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3061
  • Country: fi
  • Starting with DLL21
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2018, 10:06:10 am »
What i want to know is how good the signals look when you ask it to reproduce a weird frequency square wave such as 10.16456 MHz.

Does it make it jitter all over the place like most cheap arb signal generators?

For reference Cheap Siglent SDG1032X
Square.
Cycle to Cycle jitter. Freq 10.16456MHz
(note, oscilloscope SDS1104X-Emod and SDG both run independently with they own internal reference and this sum jitters and drifts also included and oscilloscope itself trigger jitter)

Perhaps we later see how this Rigol performs.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 10:08:18 am by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Online bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11156
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2018, 12:40:28 pm »
Oh sexy. I'm going to grab a DG832 when they actually become available here.

35MHz dual channel for less than my DG1022Z cost. Can't moan at that. Also solves the one thing that pisses me off about the DG1022Z; the noise!

Edit: Looks like arse but to quote my father "who looks at the mantelpiece while you're poking the fire"
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 12:50:50 pm by bd139 »
 

Online Bassman59

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1222
  • Country: us
  • Yes, I do this for a living
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2018, 05:08:28 pm »
Oh sexy. I'm going to grab a DG832 when they actually become available here.

DG822 is in stock here in the colonies ... I am trying to justify the purchase.
 

Online bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11156
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2018, 06:28:28 pm »
You’re closer to the source than we are here :)

 

Offline Synthtech

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 168
  • Country: au
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2018, 07:47:34 pm »
Hats off to Rigol for the innovative case, one less fan running in the room is definitely a very good thing even if that requires a radical looking case. It might look ugly but at least it isn’t as ugly to look at as that wierd mismatched 3 colour logo plate that Siglent sticks on the front of everything.
 

Online bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11156
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2018, 08:11:35 pm »
If you want a Siglent without an ugly logo you can pay through the nose and get an RS Pro branded one  :palm:

Ok dug further into this now I have some time. I think my major concern with the DG832 is the touch interface. The current DG1022Z I have muscle memory for. Sure the screen is smaller but it has a metric fuck ton more buttons on it. I may futz an entry and blow up a DUT one day with a touch screen.

Image for comparison:



On DG1022Z, to set say 7030 KHz, you press:
Code: [Select]
[freq soft] [7] [0] [3] [0] [KHz soft]
Dg832 you:
Code: [Select]
[smudge] [squark] [fum] [bib] [flib] [nark] [scrark]
Also the DG1022Z you could clearly beat Hulk to death with it in about 2 minutes flat and it wouldn't even have a dent. DG832 looks like an ebay 69 quid jobby in size and quality.

I might skip this actually.

Edit: recon occuring:



Hey Siglent if you're listening, please don't add a touch interface to your stuff. I'll buy one when my DG1022Z drops dead but only if it has buttons :)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 08:20:36 pm by bd139 »
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15695
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2018, 08:31:31 pm »
Edit: recon occuring:



Hey Siglent if you're listening, please don't add a touch interface to your stuff.
Already in some existing and 'to come' models.
WS3000/SDS3000    < resistive and apparently not nice.

Capacitive:
SDG2000X models    < rarely use touch but it seems just fine.
SDG6000X models    < should be equivalent to 2000X models
SVA1015X                < got one and it's touch is excellent !
Coming
SDS5000X

Any others don't jump to mind.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 08:34:49 pm by tautech »
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1137
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2018, 08:40:40 pm »
Just from the looks its clear that the DG1022Z is built like a rock compared to the new all-plastic models.

I dont drop my stuff so often, but a full metal jacket has other advantages: resistance to EMI.
I am curious if RIGOL also made compromises here. Has somebody tried this yet ?
 

Online bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11156
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2018, 08:47:24 pm »
Edit: recon occuring:



Hey Siglent if you're listening, please don't add a touch interface to your stuff.
Already in some existing and 'to come' models.
WS3000/SDS3000    < resistive and apparently not nice.

Capacitive:
SDG2000X models    < rarely use touch but it seems just fine.
SDG6000X models    < should be equivalent to 2000X models
SVA1015X                < got one and it's touch is excellent !
Coming
SDS5000X

Any others don't jump to mind.

Joy. Why? Honestly.

I don't get it. It's just bad. People need to stop coming up with this shit. I'll explain why:

1. Your hand obscures half the interface when you're using it.
2. There is no haptic feedback.
3. Everything relies on precise absolute positioning of your hands. They have to iterate the position via visual feedback. Fingers are pretty good little sensors once you get close but there's nothing to feel.
4. It's physically more demanding and tiring than physical controls.
5. The interface elements aren't standardised so every device is a complete context switch.
6. The panels are fragile.

But fuck me, those Chinese capacitive displays lifted off no brand smartphone lines will save us so many dollars on buttons and we can say "look everybody it's got a touch screen".

Edit: this is even a million times worse than the greatest fad ever; touch screen laptops. When you have a touch screen scope for example, the screen is even higher up so when your arms get tired it's even more painful to use it with the above constraints.

Just from the looks its clear that the DG1022Z is built like a rock compared to the new all-plastic models.

I dont drop my stuff so often, but a full metal jacket has other advantages: resistance to EMI.
I am curious if RIGOL also made compromises here. Has somebody tried this yet ?

You probably don't drop it as often you're right but a lot of equipment in labs is shared and moved around regularly. That thing has zero protection on it at all from corner knocks. I reckon you could drop a 1022Z front on and it'd survive. If you look at the old HP 546xx series scopes, one of the design flaws that I have actually experienced is the BNCs stick out of the front and the entire mechanical load is on the motherboard. One knock and it'll crack the board. No secondary protection on those either. I imagine this is vulnerable too. Butt side of a DG1022Z for reference - it's 90% protection



Good point there. I'm worried about emissions with this. If I put my DG1022Z next to an HF transceiver I can't hear a thing and that is literally perfect. If I did the same with my old plastic cased TG220 function generator you could hear it strongly in the receiver. The transceiver is very heavily shielded as well (cast aluminium chassis, steel panels).

Hmm. I smell a turd I think.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 08:51:21 pm by bd139 »
 
The following users thanked this post: blackdog

Offline Synthtech

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 168
  • Country: au
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2018, 08:57:09 pm »
I have to agree about touch screens.  I know that they have so many amazing advantages but I bypassed the new Keithley 6 1/2 digit multimeter because of it. I really enjoy using my old Agilent 34401A, it’s as stable as a church pew and I recently replaced the VFD display and the part cost me $70.00. based on how so many of the older HP 34401A’s are still performing it’s not impossible that that I will still be using it in 10-20 years time.

I am not sure how I would fare if in 10 years I went to look for a replacement touch screen for the Keithley. Longevity counts for me, there’s enough scrap electronics in the world as it is.
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1137
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2018, 08:59:54 pm »
At the risk of being cursed as too conservative, I prefer buttons to touchscreens as well.
I do have a lot of touchy instruments, though (see profile).
 
Reasons are:

- I hate fingerprints on my screens
- typing or wheeling is faster and has less entry errors than guestures due to haptic feedback
- touchscreens dont last forever. They get numb over the years, especially when used frequently.
  No problem for short-lived junk, but not smart for expensive lab stuff that is supposed to last for decades.

IMHO, touchscreens are a lot cheaper to make and more flexible than a classic panel, agreed.
So if your product is as mature as a green banana you will love a touchscreen because all is done by software
and can be changed weekly if needed.

 
The following users thanked this post: tefe, 2N3055, bd139, Synthtech

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2018, 12:58:20 am »
Touchscreens can be useful for some things, but replacing buttons and knobs isn't one of them. Even if you want to have a flexible interface, that's already been done successfully with a combination of screen space (for labels) and physical buttons.

As with many wank (as Dave might put it) features, they'll go to an extreme before (hopefully) finding a reasonable balance.

I really enjoy using my old Agilent 34401A, it’s as stable as a church pew and I recently replaced the VFD display and the part cost me $70.00. based on how so many of the older HP 34401A’s are still performing it’s not impossible that that I will still be using it in 10-20 years time.

I am not sure how I would fare if in 10 years I went to look for a replacement touch screen for the Keithley. Longevity counts for me, there’s enough scrap electronics in the world as it is.

There's been a successful project replacing the 34401A VFD with an OLED display (a TFT LCD shouldn't be much different). Something similar could probably be done for Keithley ones as well.

If all else fails, those meters can also be used remotely. So, they'll be useful until they're dead, regardless how long the displays last.
I TEA.
 
The following users thanked this post: Synthtech

Online Berni

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2326
  • Country: si
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2018, 05:20:06 am »
Touchscreens are a good idea and capacitive ones have no moving parts so should be very reliable. But they are NOT a replacement for buttons!

A touchscreen is useful as a complement to the existing buttons. Would you want the horizontal scale control on your scope on the touchscreen? Hell no! But you could probably do something useful with cursors where you just tap two points and it puts a set of cursors on those spots (While still having a cursor button where the soft knob moves them). Or you might want to enter in a frequency of 2.048 MHz into the built in signal gen. Sure you can do it with the knob but that takes a bit since scopes generally don't have a numeric keypad, but if you tap the setting you could have a big touchscreen keypad pop up where you type it in and it disappears once done.

I do have a touchscreen scope (MSO9000) but the UI requires you to do most stuff on the screen rather than with buttons. It does some things right but not everything. And if im going to use the scope for some time i just use a mouse with it instead as its faster and easier than touch.
 
The following users thanked this post: petert

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15695
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2018, 07:55:42 am »
Edit: recon occuring:



Hey Siglent if you're listening, please don't add a touch interface to your stuff.
Already in some existing and 'to come' models.
WS3000/SDS3000    < resistive and apparently not nice.

Capacitive:
SDG2000X models    < rarely use touch but it seems just fine.
SDG6000X models    < should be equivalent to 2000X models
SVA1015X                < got one and it's touch is excellent !
Coming
SDS5000X

Any others don't jump to mind.

Joy. Why? Honestly.

I don't get it. It's just bad. People need to stop coming up with this shit. I'll explain why:

1. Your hand obscures half the interface when you're using it.
2. There is no haptic feedback.
3. Everything relies on precise absolute positioning of your hands. They have to iterate the position via visual feedback. Fingers are pretty good little sensors once you get close but there's nothing to feel.
4. It's physically more demanding and tiring than physical controls.
5. The interface elements aren't standardised so every device is a complete context switch.
6. The panels are fragile.

But fuck me, those Chinese capacitive displays lifted off no brand smartphone lines will save us so many dollars on buttons and we can say "look everybody it's got a touch screen".
You're really showing your age now and I'm a good bit older than you.  :P

A few years back I'd have thought similar but every bit of equipment a has different UI requirement like WTF would you want a 'pinch to zoom' on an AWG for instance.
Placement of the touch screen elements has everything to do with usability and if they're aligned with physical buttons the choice is yours of which to use. For some elements a touch screen is faster and less effort, quite contrary to your misguided beliefs. Other elements of course require user feedback such as indented encoders  and numerical keypads and it's unlikely they'll be replaced anytime soon with touch controls especially in instruments with small displays and/or complex multi-menued UI's.
You comment on the users hand obscuring the display, well yes but in some in some implementations a quick access panel is available to place (drag drop) anywhere that suits.
Like you I've never been a great fan of touch displays but the more I get to use instruments that have them the more I understand their advantages with good implementation.

Panels fragile ? BS, double BS !  :bullshit:

You really need get out more !  :P

Just to wind some of ya's up some more, in not too many years I predict there will be instrument ranges from many manufacturers only available with touch displays and also ranges of instruments with physical controls too but at an additional cost.
Such is the pace of change in the last few decades.

 :popcorn:
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Online bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11156
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2018, 08:44:45 am »
Sorry for the length of this.

You're really showing your age now and I'm a good bit older than you.  :P

It's not age related this. It's actually down to real quantifiable experience.

One of the products I was wholly in charge of in the early 00's was a virtual interface platform that allowed people to prototype hardware and software based interfaces and wire them to the underlying electronics. This consisted of a COTS PC and various standard PCI digital interface cards and numerous Matrox cards connected to physical controls and virtual displays. There was a whole load of VC++ I am not proud of under there :D ... The result was your avionics module could be tried in situ in simulator platforms and the controls could be moved around and look for HCI related problems with the end users (pilots, military personel etc). This spanned avionics, ground support systems, production line controls, everything.

One of the major findings from this platform was that the important thing is user preference and dividing the control surface into two groups of functions: primary and secondary. Primary functions are things that are critical to the operation of the product. Secondary functions are not so important and are used occasionally.

We found that primary functions MUST be physical tactile controls with haptic feedback and must be comfortable or fatigue builds up over time leading to errors, physical pain and generally low opinion of the products. I've even seen it where people get shoulder problems after having to look around the side of something that their hand is obscuring a hundred times a day. Even little things like this only come from observing the user for days at a time and doing several hardware prototype revisions (which was expensive and why I built the above).

Secondary functions it really doesn't matter as they are used so infrequently. Stick it in a menu somewhere!

Literally everything you have on a standard analogue scope, DMM, signal generator should still be primary physical controls on every piece of test gear unconditionally.

This comes from watching hundreds of people doing real work with hardware for 3 years using this software and building interfaces. This is quantifiable and there's a ton of research out there which backs this up. Go and have a look around.

This is why the TDS210/220, while not having an amazing spec sheet, is such a nice bit of kit to use. It has that functionality clearly divided and clearly implemented. The interface is literally "right".

A few years back I'd have thought similar but every bit of equipment a has different UI requirement like WTF would you want a 'pinch to zoom' on an AWG for instance.
Placement of the touch screen elements has everything to do with usability and if they're aligned with physical buttons the choice is yours of which to use. For some elements a touch screen is faster and less effort, quite contrary to your misguided beliefs. Other elements of course require user feedback such as indented encoders  and numerical keypads and it's unlikely they'll be replaced anytime soon with touch controls especially in instruments with small displays and/or complex multi-menued UI's.
You comment on the users hand obscuring the display, well yes but in some in some implementations a quick access panel is available to place (drag drop) anywhere that suits.
Like you I've never been a great fan of touch displays but the more I get to use instruments that have them the more I understand their advantages with good implementation.

I think I've covered the above already.

I will say that if you look at the quantifiable disaster that is metro / UWP on Windows platforms over the last few years, you will see that it has started to move away from the touch focus to a keyboard and mouse focus again. Because it literally didn't work in the real world. It's tough to admit this. People should learn from other people's mistakes. win32 was not a mistake. UWP is.

Panels fragile ? BS, double BS !  :bullshit:

You really need get out more !  :P

I think I did :)

They are incredibly fragile. If they weren't there wouldn't be at least 100 phone repair shops within a mile of me. And the phones are pretty much the best bits of engineering out there. They have had the highest overall investment in technology and reliability over the last decade. But they still get broken because you don't get to choose the hands in which they are placed.

Same goes for test gear which is pretty much ritually abused. Back when I was at university, someone popped a DMM screen with a flying test lead for example. And that had a layer of Fluke around it. And working for the test gear department of a large company for a bit, I actually saw all the creative ways people fucked up their kit.

Just to wind some of ya's up some more, in not too many years I predict there will be instrument ranges from many manufacturers only available with touch displays and also ranges of instruments with physical controls too but at an additional cost.
Such is the pace of change in the last few decades.

 :popcorn:

This is a side effect known as the feature bell curve. What we have is roughly the pinnacle of feature completeness at the moment. We have decent quality reliable feature load, we have devices which are completely functional and reliable and we have low cost manufacturing. Unfortunately when we get into this state, there is a latent desire to innovate because of fear from other manufacturers innovating first. This results in either two outcomes:

1. Firstly we have negative innovation. Apple are good at this. They start removing things people use and need to build the ultimate clean interface and system. This harms the user by removing established patterns.
2. Secondly we have negative innovation again. This is where established paradigms are broken, simply for the sake of labeling something as innovation.

This is a type 2 failure mode. Thus people are so afraid to do minor revisions of their products and only reinvent them every few years due to the pressure from above and the marketing teams. Also there is a pressure to cut costs. If you tick both boxes you think you have won.

Yaesu are a fine example of sticking a finger up to this. They took the FT-817 platform which is nigh on 20 years old now and released the FT-818. People nearly shit a brick because it was literally almost exactly the same as the FT-817. 20 years of progress?!?!?! What is this?!?!?!? Why should you buy this?!?!?  That was the sentiment. Well it turns out you shouldn't if you have an FT-817. This is shocking to the masses apparently who have been programmed with itchy upgrade dick syndrome (fear of obsolescence) and the manufacturers desire to sell new products all the time to the same people.  What did they do with the FT-818? Well they re-engineered the guts so that Yaesu could provide the same functionality with newer parts. That was it.  The interface for it works. Didn't need changing. You can drive it with your eyes shut.

Same with HP / Agilent / Keysight. Over the last 25 years some of their products haven't changed, like the E36xx platform and the 34401A for example. When you look at their newer lines, taking the E36312A for example, there are still physical controls. Even the high end InfiniVision 6000 scopes with the touch screen still have ALL of the primary controls on the panel with no channel sharing for example. They paid for a user study.

This is simply the bottom end of the market throwing cost cutting fad crap out to outdo each other and not even bothering to do a user study.

I'll throw another "right" user interface on the table:



I'd just like to say that the DG1022Z interface isn't great, especially if you compare to the above, but the thing is an order of magnitude better than the newer touch devices for sure.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 08:48:14 am by bd139 »
 
The following users thanked this post: xrunner, mnementh, theirishscion, petert

Offline blackdog

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 580
  • Country: nl
  • Please stop pushing bullshit...
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2018, 09:27:05 am »
Hi tautech,

The fact that it is "modern" to have a touch control does not mean that this is a good interface for the device to which it is applied.
Almost everything in this world is driven by economics, and I can tell you, that's not a good thing, and I think you are intelligent enough to understand what I mean.

Also the Rigol generator is a good example that this is driven by the Marketers, Marketers are a really bad religion... They will demolish this world just by their drive to profit maximization.
Siglent is not different, there are so many companies that take on the bad decisions from their competitors to get 0.1% more profit in the short term...

Lets remove all the buttons! Easy, look how modern we are, look at al the option we put in it! look at al the nice colors we use, bullshit housing,
and you cant put anything on top of it and that for only for 324$!!!

And now some remarks on my Siglent SDG2042 generator.   :box:
It has a touch screen, i almost never use it, why you may ask? (you will problely think it's a nother old fart) yes i am!

I will explain it to you, when I am measuring an object I would like to keep my brain on the object,
the attention should not be drawn away by a too small screen where I have to press exactly on a position to set e.g. the output voltage, its a hell to do that....

The modern scoops and spectrum analyser with their large screens are easier to operate with a touch screen than the standard size housing such as the Siglent SDG 2042, HP 34401A, Fluke 8840A etc.

Another big mistake made by many manufacturers, on LAB power supplies is this,
I want to have a separate button for the voltage and a separate button for the current setting.
For function generators I want to have a separate button for the output level.
It always takes a lot of time to switch to modern generators to switch from frequency settings to output voltage settings and back again.

It is clear to me that the people who determine which buttons are placed on a function generator, take very few measurements themselves...

The Siglent good stuf!
I can also tell you that I am very happy with the Siglent SDG 2042, why? it is not the touch screen witch make's me cry...
This generator delivers the best square wave or pulse if you stay below 1MHz., now happy tears  :-DD
If the frequency is exactly 1MHz then the block/pulse response is not so perfect but still very good, at exactly 1MHz or higher something is switched in the generator to make the perfection go away.
It is better in this, than my HAMEG HMF2525 en my Rigol DG4162 generators.

Because of these good features of the SDG 2042 generator, it is regularly used by me for testing broadband amplifiers or adjusting scope probes.
And i can even use it to make reasonable distortion measurements on audio equipment with its lower than 0.01% distortion (< 0.007% measured with my Audio Presision measuringSet)
So its not all bad...  ;)

Kind regards,
Bram
“Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe.”
 
The following users thanked this post: Synthtech, petert, das_strobel

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15695
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2018, 10:10:36 am »
@ blackdog
I don't disagree with anything you've said and it's good to get the opinions out into the open and invite/incite discussion. Of course there will be extremes of views both for and against ............anything.

WRT touch interfaces, they are still in their youth but look how far they have come in just a couple of decades when not long before that, encoders surfaced to replace pots and/or ganged switches when most thought they would be with us for all time. These touch interfaces are becoming very reliable as there no membranes, buttons or encoders to wear or fail. We see them everywhere, even the parking meter where I went to demo scopes the other day had no buttons, only credit card slot and a touch screen.  :o

It's called progress and not all like it or embrace it, that I very much understand.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11967
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2018, 10:15:56 am »
Touchscreens are a useful and welcome addition to testgear functionality, but it's an augmentation,  not a replacement,.Things like text entry, annotation, selecting from a long menu and dragging waveforms are genuinely useful enhancements, but gestures like pinch-zooming simply don't work on vertically oriented screens, because fingernails and joint geometry

One issue I've noticed  is that adding a fancy GUI has slowed down the response to hard buttons to near-unusability -e.g. on the  R&S RTB/RTM, the conventional double-presss on a channel button to turn it on/off is rendered essentially nonfunctional because of the excessive time taken to animate the opening the menu.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 
The following users thanked this post: petert

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11967
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2018, 10:18:40 am »
IMO the arguments for/against touch controls are somewhat different for measuring instruments vs. things like siggens and PSUs.
With a measuring instrument you are always going to be looking at the screen while adjusting, but for generators you may well be looking elsewhere, like looking at another instrument or checking for smoke.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline netdudeuk

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 405
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #66 on: September 14, 2018, 10:18:54 am »
I notice that the channel and memory upgrades are via licenses as with some of the other devices.  I wonder how long it will be before there's an equivalent riglol fix for them.
 

Online bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11156
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #67 on: September 14, 2018, 10:34:12 am »
I notice that the channel and memory upgrades are via licenses as with some of the other devices.  I wonder how long it will be before there's an equivalent riglol fix for them.

A couple of hours after the right person gets their hands on them :)
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1291
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2018, 10:12:49 pm »
I'll throw another "right" user interface on the table:



I'd just like to say that the DG1022Z interface isn't great, especially if you compare to the above, but the thing is an order of magnitude better than the newer touch devices for sure.

DG1022Z interface is a huge improvement over that:
- multiple important on screen info shown at the same time, no need to scroll
- dedicated numerical keys
- dedicated channel output select
 

Online bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11156
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #69 on: September 14, 2018, 10:25:28 pm »
To note I wasn’t comparing the interface of the DG1022Z to the 33120A but the 33120A to the DG832.

The 33120A is single channel and none of the buttons are double press contextual like the DG1022Z which is rather annoying. Also with the DG1022Z setting the power reference impedance is a dick no less than about three menus down.
 

Offline MrW0lf

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 921
  • Country: ee
    • lab!fyi
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #70 on: September 15, 2018, 07:45:43 am »
You really need get out more !  :P

Do you mean citypersons gathering in coffee bar and touching eachothers screens :P Then ya... But if one actually gets out eg powersports, ice fishing or whatever that involves mud, blood or negative temperatures then all you want is rugged devices with hard to press buttons eg Garmin 78. And I do (sadly) have high end smartphone with huge touchscreen so I have something to align against.

Just to wind some of ya's up some more, in not too many years I predict there will be instrument ranges from many manufacturers only available with touch displays and also ranges of instruments with physical controls too but at an additional cost.
Such is the pace of change in the last few decades.

 :popcorn:

But you see if we talking about calm soothing lab environment its all been rendered obsolete in 1968 with public demonstration of computer mouse :o
Progress is not always linear. Now many high end scopes etc get touch interfaces all being stroked with passion in promo videos but afterwards they secretly attach mouse... ;)

So beware, sometimes with age you just succumb to social=media pressure. :popcorn:
 

Online Bassman59

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1222
  • Country: us
  • Yes, I do this for a living
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2018, 06:22:01 pm »
I’m not a kid any more, and like all of you I have an opinion about capacitive touch-screen displays. For example, in my other life as a live sound mix-person, touch screens have really taken over. And whether that’s good or bad is wholly in how the entire user interface is designed. For example, the new thing about mixing on an iPad as the only interface? It’s totally great for a bar system where it’s set and forget, and it’s a godsend for ringing out monitor wedges. But you can’t mix a show on it for a reason alluded to above. Someone mentioned adjusting the signal generator while watching the result on an oscilloscope, and that’s exactly it. I watch the lead singer with my finger on his channel fader. If I have to look down to find it on a flat screen, I’ve already missed the cue.

But for other things, the touch screen gives me what I need when I need it, like on the Soundcraft Vi series or DiGico consoles. Touch the channel, it all opens up, and the row of knobs lets me adjust something. And faders are always available.

Back to this signal generator. The touch screen is of course the latest cool thing, all the kids like touch screens, blah blah. But it is also a money-saver, or at least allows reallocating BOM cost to where it matters most. So, let me see, I can get a 14-bit generator for $300 with a lot of buttons, or I can get a 16-bit generator with fewer buttons and a touch screen for that $300.

I know what I prefer.
 

Offline simone.pignatti

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 316
  • Country: it
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2018, 08:09:43 am »
here are 2 nice pictures :)
Technical Support
 

Online bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11156
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #73 on: September 21, 2018, 08:11:53 am »
Can you crack one open so we can see the guts?
 

Offline blackdog

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 580
  • Country: nl
  • Please stop pushing bullshit...
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2018, 08:39:01 am »
Hi simone.pignatti,

Thaks for the pictures, but it is of far more importance how the puls responce is of these generators...
So 1KHZ, 100KHz, 1MHz, 10MHZ 50% duty cycles is ok for the first impression, this all at minimal edge time.
So, what about professional 50 Ohm coax cables, 50 Ohm in line therminators from MiniCircuits or a other good brand.
Whit a fast edge generator you wil see the difference between the 50 Ohm therminator in your scoop or a good 50 Ohm inline therminator.

Check the responce on different frequencys and different output levels, and yes... somtimes your mouth drops open when you see the difference in performance  ;)

If you are using a spectrum analyser, use also inline attenuators, minimal 20 db to be sure your generator sees a relative good 50 ohm load and don't overload your spectrum analyzer!
Most spectrum analysers are not a nice 50 Ohm input over a broad frequency range...

Just some tips, maybe you know this already, then i shut up  :-DD

Kind regards,
Bram
“Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe.”
 
The following users thanked this post: AgiRigSig

Online Berni

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2326
  • Country: si
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #75 on: September 21, 2018, 08:44:17 am »
And id like to see a jitter test.

Set the generator to a weird non round frequency square wave such as 10.123456 MHz. Trigger on one of the edges then move the time on the scope to the next rising and next falling edge.
 

Offline simone.pignatti

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 316
  • Country: it
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2018, 08:56:51 am »
And id like to see a jitter test.

Set the generator to a weird non round frequency square wave such as 10.123456 MHz. Trigger on one of the edges then move the time on the scope to the next rising and next falling edge.
do you mean something like this?
Technical Support
 

Online TurboTom

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 592
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #77 on: September 21, 2018, 08:59:39 am »
Provide a test unit and it will undergo the same "punishment" on my MDA as the SDG6000X...  :P
 

Offline commongrounder

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #78 on: September 28, 2018, 07:04:15 pm »
I’ve been looking into these generators and noticed a difference between the 800 and 900 series other than the maximum frequency, sampling rate, and memory depth (We’ll leave the color of the case and screen out of this). On the 800 series, 16-bit arb waveform files are truncated to 14-bit, whereas the 900 series reproduces the full 16 bits. That might matter to those looking for the best signal fidelity from their created (and in-built?) arb waveforms.  Of course I wonder if this is a hardware, or software, limitation.
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, maxwell3e10, Jacon

Offline MT

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1108
  • Country: fo
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #79 on: September 29, 2018, 12:52:45 am »
Case design is hilarious , i cant buy this even if i needed , want and i had the money! :scared:
Which one of the Transformers is it?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 01:42:11 am by MT »
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1137
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #80 on: September 29, 2018, 12:56:58 am »
They now need to design a special coffee mug that fits on top of this.  >:D
 

Online bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11156
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #81 on: September 29, 2018, 09:29:18 am »
Yes the case is pretty crap. Not quite as rubbish as my ADSL router though. I have yet to find a worse one than that. https://en.avm.de/products/fritzbox/fritzbox-7560/ very MIB.  Rigol is probably misinterpreted Ridley Scott science fiction here.
 

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #82 on: September 29, 2018, 09:45:42 pm »
On the 800 series, 16-bit arb waveform files are truncated to 14-bit, whereas the 900 series reproduces the full 16 bits.

Wow, really? :palm:
I TEA.
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1137
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #83 on: September 29, 2018, 09:48:30 pm »
Your router is the most aerodynamic model on the market. I boasts a Cw value of just below 0.2, and has been carfully optimized to minimize wind noises.  :-DD
 
The following users thanked this post: Vgkid, Gandalf_Sr, bd139

Offline commongrounder

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #84 on: September 30, 2018, 12:21:34 am »
On the 800 series, 16-bit arb waveform files are truncated to 14-bit, whereas the 900 series reproduces the full 16 bits.

Wow, really? :palm:

Check it out, from DG800 manual:

For the arbitrary waveform file, the voltage values corresponding to each waveform point are stored in binary data format. The voltage value at each point takes up 2 bytes (16 bits). DG800 only uses 14 bits, and the higher 14 bits are used to represent voltage and the lower 2 bits are not used. Therefore, its format of the binary data is from 0x0000 to 0xFFFC.

From DG900 manual:

For the arbitrary waveform file, the voltage values corresponding to each waveform point are stored in binary data format. The voltage value at each point takes up 2 bytes (16 bits). Therefore, its format of the binary data is from 0x0000 to 0xFFFF.

 :-//
 

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #85 on: September 30, 2018, 12:31:44 am »
Nice. The title should've been, "New Rigol up to 16-bit function generators." ;D
I TEA.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7695
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #86 on: September 30, 2018, 02:17:19 am »
Bonus points for the mechanical power switch. Siglent, take note!
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 03:04:39 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15695
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #87 on: September 30, 2018, 10:17:03 am »
Bonus points for the mechanical power switch. Siglent, take note!
FYI
ALL Siglent AWG's have always had mechanical power switches !

Further:
In the Siglent AWG range, 1kX and old models, 800 and 1k series are 14 bit while SDG2kX and 6kX models are 16 bit.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7695
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #88 on: September 30, 2018, 10:42:28 am »
FYI
ALL Siglent AWG's have always had mechanical power switches !

Further:
In the Siglent AWG range, 1kX and old models, 800 and 1k series are 14 bit while SDG2kX and 6kX models are 16 bit.
Who cares when the other devices come with soft touch buttons? You don't get brownie points for not messing up across the board.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 07:28:37 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Online Berni

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2326
  • Country: si
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #89 on: October 01, 2018, 05:46:07 am »
But the trend of soft power buttons in test equipment is annoying.

There is little to no good reason why such gear would need to have a soft power button. They don't have remote controls to turn them on and they are not working on so much data that the OS could corrupt itself by forced power downs. RAM is cheap now days so simply run your OS from a ramdisk image while keeping only large static files in flash along with a settings file that gets written to in a safe way. Test equipment spends most of its life in the off state. You don't even use your scope for 10 hours a day on average even if you really use your scope a lot. Let alone use some more specialized bit of gear that you perhaps only power on a few times per year.

What makes things worse is that all of this gear uses switching supplies now. Okay they do waste less power than a oldschool transformer at low loads (When properly designed) so that lends them well to soft power off. But these things are also a lot more fragile. Mains power can have all sorts of surges happen and is common to get stuck by lightning. These surges can blow the primary side transistors in switching supplies pretty easily, but a big chunk of copper and iron doesn't really care as long as its less than the few kV of its insulation resistance. If you try pushing too much voltage into a transformer it simply saturates and draws a huge current while the output just rises a bit above normal. Of course it won't save you from a direct hit but i seen a lot of switching supplies blow up from lightning strikes while all transformered things in the same building kept working fine.

The only exception is instruments that have ovenised things in them. Often old gear had a small standby supply that is wired before the power switch to provide just a few watts of power to an ovenised crystal or something so that it drifts as little as possible. So i suppose if you have that then a soft power button is easy to do and saves you having an extra PSU.

 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15695
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #90 on: October 01, 2018, 09:30:34 am »
But the trend of soft power buttons in test equipment is annoying.

There is little to no good reason why such gear would need to have a soft power button. They don't have remote controls to turn them on and they are not working on so much data that the OS could corrupt itself by forced power downs. RAM is cheap now days so simply run your OS from a ramdisk image while keeping only large static files in flash along with a settings file that gets written to in a safe way. Test equipment spends most of its life in the off state. You don't even use your scope for 10 hours a day on average even if you really use your scope a lot. Let alone use some more specialized bit of gear that you perhaps only power on a few times per year.

What makes things worse is that all of this gear uses switching supplies now. Okay they do waste less power than a oldschool transformer at low loads (When properly designed) so that lends them well to soft power off. But these things are also a lot more fragile. Mains power can have all sorts of surges happen and is common to get stuck by lightning. These surges can blow the primary side transistors in switching supplies pretty easily, but a big chunk of copper and iron doesn't really care as long as its less than the few kV of its insulation resistance. If you try pushing too much voltage into a transformer it simply saturates and draws a huge current while the output just rises a bit above normal. Of course it won't save you from a direct hit but i seen a lot of switching supplies blow up from lightning strikes while all transformered things in the same building kept working fine.

The only exception is instruments that have ovenised things in them. Often old gear had a small standby supply that is wired before the power switch to provide just a few watts of power to an ovenised crystal or something so that it drifts as little as possible. So i suppose if you have that then a soft power button is easy to do and saves you having an extra PSU.
There's a few things you overlook.

Some test gear has a hidden OS (often Windoze or Linux) that must be shutdown correctly so a soft OFF button lends itself well to these needs and fits well with SMPS supplies.
Much equipment is also more portable than those of yesteryear and again SMPS is preferable to save weight and cost rather than brute iron and copper.
Also, we've all seen enough years of SMPS to know their primary failure case is when hard switched rather than left powered for long periods.
And lastly, SMPS lends itself to international markets better than linear PSU's for multi-voltage and multi-frequency needs. At one time marine and aviation test equipment was somewhat specialized whereas today most equipment can handle these rather obscure mains supplies with ease.


Unlike the minuscule walwarts we all have for the likes of our phones etc, equipment with larger form factors do have the room to incorporate proper mains filtering that consists of adequately sized components, spark gaps, air gaps and common mode mains filters that make the modern SMPS quite robust. I've never replaced any in equipment I've supplied and can only vaguely remember one Siglent SMPS failing mentioned somewhere on this forum.
Luck I guess, but it seems not all other brands have shared this luck.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1137
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #91 on: October 01, 2018, 09:42:17 am »
... another exception are larger instruments that need a regular Windows shutdown, like the Keysight S Scopes, VNAs and Spectrum Analyzers.
They have a "hard" power pushbutton, but a "soft" shutdown is performed.
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15695
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #92 on: October 01, 2018, 09:45:54 am »
... another exception are larger instruments that need a regular Windows shutdown, like the Keysight S Scopes, VNAs and Spectrum Analyzers.
They have a "hard" power pushbutton, but a "soft" shutdown is performed.
Which of course indicates a PSU that's always ON when plugged in or rear switched. (PITA)
Be it linear or SMPS, smoothing caps still wear out as the years tick by.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1137
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #93 on: October 01, 2018, 10:01:51 am »
I dont know if they do a "hard" shutdown after the "soft" one is completed.
They Keysight stuff (or Agilent, or HP) has a reputation to last for very long, so maybe they use a lot better caps than our Chinese friends from today (see Daves standard rant when tearing down stuff).
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7695
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #94 on: October 01, 2018, 10:22:19 am »
I dont know if they do a "hard" shutdown after the "soft" one is completed.
They Keysight stuff (or Agilent, or HP) has a reputation to last for very long, so maybe they use a lot better caps than our Chinese friends from today (see Daves standard rant when tearing down stuff).
A hard shutdown is simply cutting the power by means of a physical switch. That's what people like, a proper switch with zero power consumption and a non ambiguous function. What you describe sounds like a soft solution.
 

Online Berni

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2326
  • Country: si
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #95 on: October 01, 2018, 10:52:05 am »
I did have the PSU in my Tek AWG2041 fail all of a sudden, one day it simply didn't turn on. Its a pretty big thing (Twice as large as a standard ATX PSU) and it had a transistor fail in the PFC that then also blew up the softstart circuit.

And yes a lot of gear now runs a OS back there, and you can indeed screw up the flash if you keep killing power to it as its running. What you simply have to do is move a unchanging golden filesystem image into RAM at boot and then run the OS from ram disk. If you kill the power the RAM is gone anyway so no worries if the filesystem is screwed up. For things you can't loose like the settings you just store that in flash with proper safety (backup copies, minimal writes, syncing changes). Perfectly doable for a multimeter or signal generator. At work we have a bunch of products that run full blown linux and its normal for them to be turned off by cutting power and 1000s of these units keep working for years in the field. All you have to do is keep it from writing to flash all willy nilly.

And yeah PC based scopes like the Keysight Infiniium ones are a different story, obviously you can't just kill Win 7 and running from ramdisk under a hypervisor is not practical for such a big bulky OS. On my particular MSO9000 the power button is simply the motherboards power switch so it works exactly like on a PC (And is pretty much just a PC with a scope board hanging off a PCIe port).

But i do suppose i have not seen many failures of switchmode PSUs on test equipment. I have a lot of test gear and i saw only 1 failure on my Tek. But i do remember switchmode PSU failures being very common in consumer crap (Probably the number 1 cause of failure even).
 

Online Bassman59

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1222
  • Country: us
  • Yes, I do this for a living
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #96 on: October 02, 2018, 03:40:38 am »
On the 800 series, 16-bit arb waveform files are truncated to 14-bit, whereas the 900 series reproduces the full 16 bits.

Wow, really? :palm:

Check it out, from DG800 manual:

For the arbitrary waveform file, the voltage values corresponding to each waveform point are stored in binary data format. The voltage value at each point takes up 2 bytes (16 bits). DG800 only uses 14 bits, and the higher 14 bits are used to represent voltage and the lower 2 bits are not used. Therefore, its format of the binary data is from 0x0000 to 0xFFFC.

From DG900 manual:

For the arbitrary waveform file, the voltage values corresponding to each waveform point are stored in binary data format. The voltage value at each point takes up 2 bytes (16 bits). Therefore, its format of the binary data is from 0x0000 to 0xFFFF.

 :-//

I suppose I could RTFM, but does that apply to standard waveforms such as sine and square waves?
 

Offline commongrounder

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #97 on: October 02, 2018, 02:08:57 pm »
On the 800 series, 16-bit arb waveform files are truncated to 14-bit, whereas the 900 series reproduces the full 16 bits.

Wow, really? :palm:

Check it out, from DG800 manual:

For the arbitrary waveform file, the voltage values corresponding to each waveform point are stored in binary data format. The voltage value at each point takes up 2 bytes (16 bits). DG800 only uses 14 bits, and the higher 14 bits are used to represent voltage and the lower 2 bits are not used. Therefore, its format of the binary data is from 0x0000 to 0xFFFC.

From DG900 manual:

For the arbitrary waveform file, the voltage values corresponding to each waveform point are stored in binary data format. The voltage value at each point takes up 2 bytes (16 bits). Therefore, its format of the binary data is from 0x0000 to 0xFFFF.

 :-//

I suppose I could RTFM, but does that apply to standard waveforms such as sine and square waves?

I have to assume the "standard" waveforms are 16-bit, since the generator is marketed as 16-bit.  Also, it isn't clear to me whether the 14-bit truncation is just with loaded-in (created) arb files, or the in-built arb waveforms as well.  This info was only stated in the file management section of the manual.  I think it deserves a mention in the published specification.
 
The following users thanked this post: egonotto

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1137
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #98 on: November 24, 2018, 07:12:06 pm »
but the look is like a horror movie ...

What the RIGOL DG800 series needs is a special accessory:

A matching coffee cup that does not risk to fall over when put on top of the unit and spill the coffee thru all the cooling slits on top.
I have a modest proposal here how this could look like  :) Innovation or Nothing !  :) :)

Another effect is that the coffee will be kept warm by the heat generated within the generator.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 12:25:31 am by Wolfgang »
 
The following users thanked this post: egonotto, bd139

Online bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11156
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #99 on: November 24, 2018, 09:10:50 pm »
That's a great idea. My 33120A appears to have coffee stains on the back of it so this is definitely a desired feature  :-DD
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9902
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #100 on: November 25, 2018, 12:47:14 am »
Cases are deliberately designed like that to prevent stacking anything on top when the device has power dissipation problems.  Less than 30 watts and they needed to do that?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 12:59:37 am by David Hess »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7695
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #101 on: November 25, 2018, 12:55:58 am »
Cases are deliberately designed like that to prevent stacking anything on top when the device has power dissipation problems.
The ridges seem intended to allow stacking, just while leaving a considerable vent.
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9902
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #102 on: November 25, 2018, 01:00:29 am »
Cases are deliberately designed like that to prevent stacking anything on top when the device has power dissipation problems.

The ridges seem intended to allow stacking, just while leaving a considerable vent.

I had to find some other photographs to see that  It is still pretty extreme even to cool up to 30 watts passively.
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1137
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #103 on: November 25, 2018, 01:15:35 am »
Cases are deliberately designed like that to prevent stacking anything on top when the device has power dissipation problems.

The ridges seem intended to allow stacking, just while leaving a considerable vent.

I had to find some other photographs to see that  It is still pretty extreme even to cool up to 30 watts passively.

The intention is clear, only its not very practical. Its for people with indefinite desk space. If every instrument designer does this, we need labs several times as large.
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9902
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #104 on: November 25, 2018, 01:47:57 am »
Even if passive cooling is not feasible, a low speed fan with a filter to keep the dust out will move enough air to make a huge difference, be silent, and last for decades.

 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1137
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #105 on: November 25, 2018, 02:08:08 am »
Yeah, agreed. If the price for pure passive cooling is that all such test equipment must be arranged side by side and cannot be towered, the price is definitely too high. What a lot of manufacturers could also do is implement better fans with less noise. The extra cost is not that high, and the annoyance factor of noisy fans is significant.
 
The following users thanked this post: xrunner, eplpwr

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7695
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #106 on: November 25, 2018, 02:36:43 am »
Yeah, agreed. If the price for pure passive cooling is that all such test equipment must be arranged side by side and cannot be towered, the price is definitely too high. What a lot of manufacturers could also do is implement better fans with less noise. The extra cost is not that high, and the annoyance factor of noisy fans is significant.
Again, these should be stackable due to the fins providing a surface to put anything flat bottomed on. It seems to be the whole point of the design.

Besides, fanless signal generators are feasible. GW-Instek and others do it without much trouble in regular cases. Fans are a weak point and a nuisance, so fanless designs seem preferable.
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9902
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #107 on: November 25, 2018, 02:54:55 am »
Besides, fanless signal generators are feasible. GW-Instek and others do it without much trouble in regular cases. Fans are a weak point and a nuisance, so fanless designs seem preferable.

Usually fans are a weak point and nuisance but at low powers, below 100 watts, and where passive cooling is marginal, they can be used without any compromises.  It takes very little airflow to make a huge difference.
 

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #108 on: March 23, 2019, 08:28:24 pm »
Has anyone got a chance to test these function generators, measure pulse jitter or noise spectrum?
 

Online bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11156
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #109 on: March 23, 2019, 08:31:44 pm »
Specs are shit compared to the old ones so I skipped buying one recently.
 

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #110 on: March 24, 2019, 04:17:02 pm »
The problem with Siglent SDG2000X series is that it has only one Aux In/Out BNC, whereas a proper generator should have Sync, Modulation, Trigger or even more BNCs for each channel. DG800/900 is a little better, with two BNCs, one for each channel. Keysight 33500 series has three auxiliary BNCs.

And what is it with these generators including a counter? I understand its easy to implement a crappy counter, but why waste a BNC for it? Except for the most basic models, I don't imagine it would be a selling point. Better to use that BNC as a trigger or another function generator control.
 

Online TurboTom

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 592
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #111 on: March 24, 2019, 06:35:11 pm »
The problem with Siglent SDG2000X series is that it has only one Aux In/Out BNC, whereas a proper generator should have Sync, Modulation, Trigger or even more BNCs for each channel. DG800/900 is a little better, with two BNCs, one for each channel. Keysight 33500 series has three auxiliary BNCs.

And what is it with these generators including a counter? I understand its easy to implement a crappy counter, but why waste a BNC for it? Except for the most basic models, I don't imagine it would be a selling point. Better to use that BNC as a trigger or another function generator control.

That was almost exactly my comment on the AUX capabilities of the SDG6000X. Considering this is Siglent's "top of the line" generator, it's rather poorly equipped. The Rigol DG4000 series offers much more regarding these additional functions though it's got other shortcomings. A merger of several of these generators would probably be what we're looking for...  ;)
 

Offline frozenfrogz

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 888
  • Country: de
  • Having fun with Arduino and Raspberry Pi
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #112 on: March 24, 2019, 08:11:48 pm »
I got a DG812 a week ago. So far I am very happy with it. :)

The UI needs a bit getting used to, especially accessing the deeper menus for trigger sync etc. - mainly because using a touch screen on test gear is somewhat counter-intuitive for me.
He’s like a trained ape. Without the training.
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 795
  • Country: pt
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #113 on: May 13, 2019, 08:28:49 pm »
Let's spice things up a bit!

Maybe they don't look so ugly after alll...     :popcorn:
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Online bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11156
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #114 on: May 13, 2019, 08:56:54 pm »
Looks like an Android phone screen as sold in an Indian tech market in 2011  :-DD

Only joking. I'm still not giving up my DG1022Z for one.

The crack is however impressive if it actually kicks out 100MHz.

What does the attenuator go down to when you set it to 50 ohms impedance?
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 795
  • Country: pt
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #115 on: May 13, 2019, 09:07:13 pm »
The crack is however impressive if it actually kicks out 100MHz.

What does the attenuator go down to when you set it to 50 ohms impedance?

No "crack". It's a feature.

Can't do that test right now. But stay tuned...   ;)
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1291
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #116 on: May 13, 2019, 09:12:42 pm »
Let's spice things up a bit!

Maybe they don't look so ugly after alll...     :popcorn:

Nice work, so DG811 may be able to be upgraded to DG992 as well?
Will definitely buy one if that is the case.  :-+
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 795
  • Country: pt
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #117 on: May 13, 2019, 09:25:14 pm »
Nice work, so DG811 may be able to be upgraded to DG992 as well?

 ::)

Edit: I didn't meant to be disrespectful. I looked at the emoji just by its graphical look: "Hmmmm, let me see..."
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 11:36:30 am by tv84 »
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1291
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #118 on: May 13, 2019, 09:34:27 pm »
::)

The specs between DG811 to DG832 appear to be the same (datasheet quotes 100MHz bandwidth), so the cap is presumably done in software.

edit: :)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 07:56:13 pm by thm_w »
 

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #119 on: May 13, 2019, 10:11:03 pm »
Let's spice things up a bit!

Maybe they don't look so ugly after alll...     :popcorn:

Still ugly on the outside, but you make them much nicer on the inside. :-+

No "crack". It's a feature.

Yes, we like features! I actually wasn't expecting the 8xx series to be able to do 250 Msps. It's good to know that "it's in there."



I foresee a sudden spike in 811 sales. >:D

And maybe cans of black paint. ^-^
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 10:21:26 pm by bitseeker »
I TEA.
 

Offline frozenfrogz

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 888
  • Country: de
  • Having fun with Arduino and Raspberry Pi
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #120 on: May 14, 2019, 04:48:16 pm »
Sooo. Would you mind elaborating on how you got DG992 firmware on the 832? @tv84
He’s like a trained ape. Without the training.
 

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #121 on: May 14, 2019, 05:09:11 pm »
I'm sure elaboration will come in good time. Perhaps a thread for it, too. ;)
I TEA.
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 795
  • Country: pt
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #122 on: May 15, 2019, 09:08:52 am »
As soon as I have a DG811 test, I'll post the method. The FW is the one that comes with the SG.
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, bitseeker, frozenfrogz, bd139

Offline Sighound36

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 27
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #123 on: May 15, 2019, 04:58:09 pm »
Hi Tv84

I suspect your latest endevours will work with the DG822 as well

Also many thanks for your work with the MSO 5000 to  :-+
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1291
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #124 on: May 15, 2019, 08:20:30 pm »
As soon as I have a DG811 test, I'll post the method. The FW is the one that comes with the SG.

Thank you, I've ordered DG811 so will check back when it arrives if you have not tested it already.

Another thing I noticed is DG800/DG900 both do not come with ethernet as standard, they require a $60 USB to ethernet adapter. Thats not bad, but the adapter looks to be the same as you can get on ebay for $5. We can either open that adapter or test some different chipsets to see what works (chipset might be referenced in the firmware somewhere?).
 

Online Berni

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2326
  • Country: si
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #125 on: May 16, 2019, 05:08:10 am »
Well at least they give you an option of an USB Ethernet adapter.

Id guess just check what are the best supported USB network card chipsets in the older Linux kernels and try plugging one of those in, id guess it works with more than just one special "the chosen one" chipset

Oh and careful with cheap chinese USB to Ethernet converters. I seen some pretty dodgy stuff inside of them like completely omitting the isolation transformer or terrible performance because the chip inside is marketed as "USB 2.0 compatible" but its actually a USB 1.1 Full Speed device limiting you to about 10% of full 100Mbit link speed.
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Offline commongrounder

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #126 on: May 16, 2019, 04:44:35 pm »
My DG952 works fine with a cheap USB 3.0 Gigabit LAN dongle.
One reason I purchased a 900 series instead of the 800 series is the difference in the arb bit depth.  Both series have 16-bit main function generation, but the 800 series only has 14-bit arbitrary output.  Loaded in 16-bit arb files just get the lowest two bits truncated.  I also was attracted to the additional arb memory of the 900 series which allows for lengthy sequences of low distortion audio tests.
I’ve had my unit for several months, and have found it easy to learn.  I almost never use the touch screen, since the main knob plus arrow keys can access all of the screen icons.
And, I don’t give a crap about what the case looks like.  It’s dead silent, and performs very well for my applications. :-+
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, Sighound36

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #127 on: May 16, 2019, 06:08:15 pm »
Can you post some performance data, like a noise spectrum or time jitter measurements?
 
The following users thanked this post: Sighound36

Offline Kodovo

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 5
  • Country: fi
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #128 on: May 16, 2019, 07:13:24 pm »
One reason I purchased a 900 series instead of the 800 series is the difference in the arb bit depth.  Both series have 16-bit main function generation, but the 800 series only has 14-bit arbitrary output.  Loaded in 16-bit arb files just get the lowest two bits truncated.

Is that really true?  I asked clarification for the User's Guide page 2-74 from Batronix last November, and Jan-Steffen Schwiemann answered:

  "we are sorry for the late reply.
    But we have finally gotten an answer from Rigol.

    For the DG800 series it is definitely 16bit resolution.
    Looks like they took the description directly from one of their other generators and forgot to correct this part."

Has anybody checked if those last bits really get truncated or not?
 

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #129 on: May 17, 2019, 02:49:11 am »
Rigol's data sheet for the 900 series also has errors in the maximum carrier frequency in burst mode. Unless there's something wrong with the generators, the max frequency in burst mode should match the max frequency of the generator. However, the data sheet shows them as 5 MHz less than the corresponding 800 series. It looks like someone changed the least significant digit from 5 to 0, but forgot to change the other digits.
I TEA.
 

Offline frozenfrogz

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 888
  • Country: de
  • Having fun with Arduino and Raspberry Pi
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #130 on: May 17, 2019, 11:36:17 am »
So, if you convert your 8xx to 9xx you should have the 16-bits.  But, somebody will have to really test it.

I am willing to test! :)

DG812 is what I have here. What other per-requisites are there?
He’s like a trained ape. Without the training.
 

Offline Kodovo

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 5
  • Country: fi
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #131 on: May 17, 2019, 12:10:26 pm »
We now have a discrepancy between what Rigol says (according to Batronix), and what is actually printed in the Manual.  So, I'd like to see whether the official firmware has 14 or 16 bits for arb. wave forms.  If you could produce an arb. form with, say, values 0x4000, 0x4001, 0x4002, 0x4003, and 0x4004, and check with a scope whether there are five different voltage levels or just two.  I think that should close the case.

Screenshot would be nice!
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 12:28:42 pm by Kodovo »
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #132 on: May 17, 2019, 01:41:14 pm »
We now have a discrepancy between what Rigol says (according to Batronix), and what is actually printed in the Manual.  So, I'd like to see whether the official firmware has 14 or 16 bits for arb. wave forms.  If you could produce an arb. form with, say, values 0x4000, 0x4001, 0x4002, 0x4003, and 0x4004, and check with a scope whether there are five different voltage levels or just two.  I think that should close the case.

Screenshot would be nice!

I did the test. Here is the result. This is the display of my DG811:


This is the measurement with my MSO5000:


See test2_1416.RAF (inside attached ZIP) for ARB file. I repeated the 0x4000 ... several times for better visualization.

Seems to be 16bit. No truncation.

Best regards
timber
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, bitseeker, maxwell3e10, frozenfrogz, Mr. Scram, Kodovo

Offline Kodovo

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 5
  • Country: fi
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #133 on: May 17, 2019, 06:25:03 pm »
Great, timber23, thank you!    How stupid from Rigol: the mistake in the User's Guide has certainly affected on the sales.  At least I have postponed the purchase until now.  But not anymore, thank you :)   Just waiting for the details of tv84 before deciding for the model.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 06:35:23 pm by Kodovo »
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #134 on: May 17, 2019, 06:48:17 pm »
What does the attenuator go down to when you set it to 50 ohms impedance?

Does anybody know how to measure this?

Strangely the measurement doesn't change if I change from HighZ to 50 ohm impedance.



The red curve is BNC direct connected to scope. Doesn't matter if I select HighZ or 50 ohm impedance. The yellow trace is BNC connected to BNC-T-adapter with 50 ohm termination. As you can see, the 20Vpp is divided by 2, maybe because of a voltage divider. For my MSO5000, I cannot change input impedance. The button is grayed out and it says 1 M ohm.

Any suggesstions why there is no difference between HighZ and 50 ohm on DG800? What am I doing wrong?

Best regards
timber23
 

Online bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11156
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #135 on: May 17, 2019, 07:34:36 pm »
I was just interested in what the minimum input value was.

I suspect this is a UI issue. Impedance has to match at each end to be accurate.
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1291
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #136 on: May 17, 2019, 08:52:01 pm »
Strangely the measurement doesn't change if I change from HighZ to 50 ohm impedance.



The red curve is BNC direct connected to scope. Doesn't matter if I select HighZ or 50 ohm impedance. The yellow trace is BNC connected to BNC-T-adapter with 50 ohm termination. As you can see, the 20Vpp is divided by 2, maybe because of a voltage divider. For my MSO5000, I cannot change input impedance. The button is grayed out and it says 1 M ohm.

Any suggesstions why there is no difference between HighZ and 50 ohm on DG800? What am I doing wrong?

Yes MSO5000 has only 1M input, no switchable 50 ohm.

The spec of the DG800 is 10Vpp into 50 ohm, so that is the most output you will see into a matched load. In your case if you connect 1M, this doubles, as you have a 50 ohm source and no 50 ohm loading it down.
Usually, when you switch from 50 ohm to Hi-z, the output will not change. The UI will simply be updated to have a different displayed voltage (in this case, it should show 10V, if you switch to Hi-Z then 20V).
But maybe as bd139 is hinting at, could be a UI bug.

You can try a lower voltage and see if the result is the same (1Vpp say), the UI should update when switching modes.

https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx%3Fckey%3D1948055%26id%3D1948055%26nid%3D-11143.0.00%26lc%3Djpn%26cc%3DJP?&cc=CA&lc=eng
 

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #137 on: May 17, 2019, 09:48:45 pm »
Correct, the DG's output impedance is always 50Ω. The setting in the DG simply changes the amplitude value that's displayed, assuming that you're connecting it to a device with an input impedance that matches the setting you chose.

On an oscilloscope with switchable input impedance, the setting does change the input impedance.

It's a bit confusing, but that's the story.
I TEA.
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #138 on: May 18, 2019, 09:30:40 am »
You are right. I did some tests on 1 Vpp. And as you said, if I change to 50 ohm than the output amplitude is automatically set to 500 mVpp.

Here are some screenshots. DG811 on HighZ:


Resulting measurement on MSO5000 without 50 ohm termination:


Now, DG811 on 50 ohms:


Resulting measurement on MSO5000 without 50 ohm termination


Resulting measurement on MSO5000 with 50 ohm termination


It was a litte bit difficult to obtain the screenshots from DG811 without using an USB disk. Here is the code which I wrote to do it with Python and PyVISA:
Code: [Select]
import visa
import datetime

def main():
    rm = visa.ResourceManager()
    res = rm.list_resources()
    my_instrument = rm.open_resource(res[0])
    my_instrument.write(':HCOP:SDUM:DATA:FORM PNG')
    print ('Screenshot format: '+my_instrument.query('HCOPy:SDUMp:DATA:FORMat?'))
   
    my_instrument.write(':HCOPy:SDUMp:DATA?')
   
    bmpdata = my_instrument.read_raw(391734+11)
    bmpdata = bmpdata[11:]
    my_instrument.close()
    fileName = datetime.datetime.now().strftime("%Y%m%d_%H%M%S")
    fileName = 'Screenshot_'+fileName+'.PNG'
    with open(fileName,"wb") as f:
        f.write(bmpdata)
   
if __name__=='__main__':
    main()

Best regards
timber23
 

Online bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11156
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #139 on: May 18, 2019, 09:40:53 am »
Yeah that's all correct  :-+
 

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #140 on: May 18, 2019, 01:53:16 pm »
Thanks for testing. Even with 50 Ohm termination the square wave has some ringing. It seems fairly bad compared with other generators.
 

Online TurboTom

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 592
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #141 on: May 18, 2019, 02:45:33 pm »
Well, I couldn't resist the possible opportunity to get a quite well performing, full featured generator at the price of the entry level model. Not that I'ld really need another AWG, but I'm probably a bad case of TEA and once in a while I've just got to get another piece...

Actually, this time I really followed the EEVBlog rules and took the unit apart before I turned it on. So here's a sequence of posts with just photos of the interior of a DG811. Actually, I found nothing to complain about, the build quality is first class and I really like how the metal chassis is integrated in the instrument. Disassembly is easy and all the boards seem to be well laid out. The quality of the switch mode transformer impressed me, it's actually wound with triple-insulated magnetic wire despite a decent layer insulation. The PSU appears to be intended to be used in several instruments just by the fact that a mains frequency coupler is included (hence it might be used in an oscilloscope, providing a source for mains trigger). Output voltages are 5V, +-7V and +-17V. The solder side of the PCB is actually conformally coated with the mounting pads spared out.

I'm quite surprised Rigol used a plug-in CPU board in this instrument. Maybe they intend to design several instruments around this platform. It's funny that there's an unpopulated LAN footprint on the PCB that supposedly requires a connector with integrated isolation transformer. Who will be the first one to install it in order to figure out if it works?

An now for the teardown photos -- Enjoy!
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 06:41:16 pm by TurboTom »
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, bitseeker

Online TurboTom

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 592
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #142 on: May 18, 2019, 02:46:52 pm »
More Photos...

BTW, now we know that Rigol's internal designation of the DG800/900 series is "Sardine"  :-DD
If that name somehow relates to the design of the instrument's enclosure? Gills everywhere...

P.S.The laser-etched output amp is most likely a THS3091.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 12:13:55 am by TurboTom »
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, bitseeker

Online TurboTom

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 592
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #143 on: May 18, 2019, 02:51:25 pm »
Still more Photos...

BTW, the DAC is an AD9747 -- I wonder why "some" companies don't understand that it's no use lasering the markings off a chip... except maybe being unable to find out that the company skimped with the speed grading...
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 08:49:09 pm by TurboTom »
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, bitseeker, maxwell3e10

Online TurboTom

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 592
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #144 on: May 18, 2019, 02:52:32 pm »
Yet still more Photos...
 
The following users thanked this post: bitseeker, 2N3055, timber23

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 795
  • Country: pt
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #145 on: May 18, 2019, 03:10:46 pm »
BTW, now we know that Rigol's internal designation of the DG800/900 series is "Sardine"  :-DD
If that name somehow relates to the design of the instrument's enclosure? Gills everywhere...

The executable is also "Sardine"!  :)

BTW, nice job!  :clap:
 

Online bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11156
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #146 on: May 18, 2019, 03:25:07 pm »
Indeed. Very nice job. Thanks for this  :-+
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 795
  • Country: pt
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #147 on: May 18, 2019, 08:45:02 pm »
HOW TO CHANGE RIGOL DG800/DG900 MODELS

1. Get a blank formatted USB disk (capacity >= 1GB)

2. Write signature in the disk with the following command (in linux):

        sudo dd if=DG800_sardinha.bin of=/dev/sda1 bs=512 seek=2000000

3. With special USB disk inserted, send the SCPI command (for example) to change model to DG992:

        :PROJ:MODE DG992

Possible model types (as seen in the first 4 bytes of sd.xx configuration file):
00 - DG811
01 - DG821
02 - DG831
03 - DG812
04 - DG822
05 - DG832
06 - DG952
07 - DG972
08 - DG992

ATTENTION: Use a blank disk and be sure it's mounted as /dev/sda1. Don't blame me if you do things wrong!!

(I included some pics kindly sent by a voluntary member)
 

Online bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11156
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #148 on: May 18, 2019, 08:51:29 pm »
LOL. Wondering if I should grab a DG811 now before they all disappear in a puff of smoke :-DD
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #149 on: May 18, 2019, 09:14:42 pm »
Did someone managed to get a USB to ethernet adapter working? I have a super cheap adapter from action.com here, but DG811 aka DG992 is not getting an IP-address via DHCP.

Any suggestions? I had a look on amazon's offers, but I didn't find any information about the used chipsets.
 

Offline frozenfrogz

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 888
  • Country: de
  • Having fun with Arduino and Raspberry Pi
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #150 on: May 18, 2019, 09:15:16 pm »
HOW TO CHANGE RIGOL DG800/DG900 MODELS

1. Get a blank formatted USB disk (capacity >= 1GB)

2. Write signature in the disk with the following command (in linux):

        sudo dd if=DG800_sardinha.bin of=/dev/sda1 bs=512 seek=2000000

Thanks for posting the info! :)
Where do I get the binary file? Is it already in this thread and I missed it?
He’s like a trained ape. Without the training.
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #151 on: May 18, 2019, 09:18:57 pm »
Thanks for posting the info! :)
Where do I get the binary file? Is it already in this thread and I missed it?

It is the first attachment of tv84 post.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-16-bit-function-generators-dg800900-series/msg2420391/#msg2420391

It is inside the ZIP file.
 

Offline frozenfrogz

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 888
  • Country: de
  • Having fun with Arduino and Raspberry Pi
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #152 on: May 18, 2019, 09:21:39 pm »
Thank you! I completely skipped that. Maybe due to reading parts of this thread on mobile...
He’s like a trained ape. Without the training.
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 795
  • Country: pt
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #153 on: May 18, 2019, 09:22:00 pm »
Did someone managed to get a USB to ethernet adapter working? I have a super cheap adapter from action.com here, but DG811 aka DG992 is not getting an IP-address via DHCP.

Any suggestions? I had a look on amazon's offers, but I didn't find any information about the used chipsets.

These driver modules are present:

Code: [Select]
-rwxrw-rw-  1 1000  1000      842148 2018-07-19 09:12:50 modules/r8188eu.ko
-rwxrw-rw-  1 1000  1000       19076 2018-07-19 09:12:50 modules/rtl_usb.ko
-rwxrw-rw-  1 1000  1000       50952 2018-07-19 09:12:50 modules/rtl8192c-common.ko
-rwxrw-rw-  1 1000  1000       42048 2018-07-19 09:12:50 modules/usbnet.ko
-rwxrw-rw-  1 1000  1000       32048 2018-07-19 09:12:50 modules/r8152.ko
-rwxrw-rw-  1 1000  1000       22848 2018-07-19 09:12:50 modules/usbtmc_dev.ko
-rwxrw-rw-  1 1000  1000       69052 2018-07-19 09:12:50 modules/rtlwifi.ko
-rwxrw-rw-  1 1000  1000       19936 2018-07-19 09:12:50 modules/usbtmc.ko
-rwxrw-rw-  1 1000  1000       85044 2018-07-19 09:12:50 modules/rtl8192cu.ko

usbnet.ko
Code: [Select]
.rodata.str1.4:000038E0 47 65 6E 65 53 79+.LC8            DCB "GeneSys",0         ; DATA XREF: usbnet_open+1ACo
.rodata.str1.4:000038E8 4E 65 74 43 68 69+.LC9            DCB "NetChip",0         ; DATA XREF: usbnet_open+19Co
.rodata.str1.4:000038F0 5A 61 75 72 75 73+.LC10           DCB "Zaurus",0          ; DATA XREF: usbnet_open+1BCo
.rodata.str1.4:000038F8 52 4E 44 49 53 00 .LC11           DCB "RNDIS",0           ; DATA XREF: usbnet_open+1CCo
.rodata.str1.4:00003908 41 53 49 58 00    .LC13           DCB "ASIX",0            ; DATA XREF: usbnet_open+1D8o
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 09:33:20 pm by tv84 »
 

Offline ogden

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2461
  • Country: lv
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #154 on: May 18, 2019, 09:26:14 pm »
LOL. Wondering if I should grab a DG811 now before they all disappear in a puff of smoke :-DD

Out of stock in Batronix already  ::)
 

Offline frozenfrogz

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 888
  • Country: de
  • Having fun with Arduino and Raspberry Pi
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #155 on: May 18, 2019, 10:11:44 pm »
xD Big thank you to tv84 for buying me a brand new DG992!

Worked like a charm on my DG812!

Edit: I am curious though. Is the performance actually the same as with a "true" DG992?

Sinewave from ca. 2MHz and above is heavily attenuated
Ripple on squarewave is the same as in timber23s screenshots and gets pretty unusable after that (not very square after all above 6MHz).

Would be interesting to see if the output of a genuine DG992 differs. Might be, that there is some hardware selection in the factory just like other binning. (just a guess)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 10:38:30 pm by frozenfrogz »
He’s like a trained ape. Without the training.
 

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #156 on: May 18, 2019, 11:10:17 pm »
Edit: I am curious though. Is the performance actually the same as with a "true" DG992?

Sinewave from ca. 2MHz and above is heavily attenuated

The output amplitude spec for all DG800 and DG900 is the same:

Amplitude (into 50Ω):
≤10 MHz: 1.0 mVpp to 10 Vpp
≤30 MHz: 1.0 mVpp to 5.0 Vpp
≤60 MHz: 1.0 mVpp to 2.5 Vpp
>60 MHz: 1.0 mVpp to 1 Vpp

There should not be heavy attenuation beginning at only 2 MHz.

Quote
Ripple on squarewave is the same as in timber23s screenshots and gets pretty unusable after that (not very square after all above 6MHz).

What are you measuring it with and what is your setup?

Quote
Would be interesting to see if the output of a genuine DG992 differs. Might be, that there is some hardware selection in the factory just like other binning. (just a guess)

From what I've seen, other Rigol products have not used any special hardware differences for software-limited functionality. I wouldn't expect them to treat this product line any differently.
I TEA.
 

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #157 on: May 18, 2019, 11:11:54 pm »
Thank you, TurboTom, for the teardown pics.

Thank you, tv84, for all the work you put into feature research ;D and for sharing them with us.
I TEA.
 

Offline commongrounder

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #158 on: May 18, 2019, 11:12:38 pm »
Is it confirmed that the sample frequency goes to 250ms/s with the “upgrade?.  I’m desperately trying to find some difference between the 800 and 900 series to help me justify spending $600US on my DG952. :palm:
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 02:02:07 pm by commongrounder »
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #159 on: May 18, 2019, 11:43:37 pm »
I did some tests comparing a pimped RIGOL DG811 (DG992-mode) vs. a pimped Siglent SDG2042X (SDG2122X-mode).

I used the same BNC cable which I unpluged and repluged during the tests. The mesurement was taken by a RIGOL MSO5000 oscilloscope. BNC cable was terminated using 50 ohm on T-adaptor.

Rigol DG811 (pimped to DG992) set to 25 MHz square wave, 4 Vpp, 50 ohm:


Siglent SDG2042 (pimped to SDG2122X), set to 25 MHz square wave, 4 Vpp, 50 ohm:


Comparison of both signals, Siglent's trace in green colour:


Now sine wave, 100 MHz, 1 Vpp (since 1Vpp is max. amplitute of DG992), 50 Ohm.

DG811 (pimped to DG992):


SDG2042X (pimped to SDG2122X):


Comparison of both traces, Siglent in green colour:


You can clearly see that the RIGOL is much more attenuated at 100MHz than the Siglent. Furthermore Siglent's square wave is a little bit better. But SDG2042X costs 565€ (upgradeable to SDG2122X) compared to 236€ for DG811 (upgradeable to DG992). Considering the price, DG811/DG992 is the winner in my opinion.

Update: I changed the labeling of the measurements because of TurboTom's objection. I do not own a genuine DG992, nor do I have access to one. Sorry for any confusion.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 06:29:06 am by timber23 »
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, TurboTom

Online TurboTom

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 592
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #160 on: May 18, 2019, 11:46:04 pm »
Did some testing already on my "pimped" 811...

Actually, there is considerable amplitude drop above approx. 50MHz with the two channels slightly differing from each other. I only tested at 1Vpp into 50 Ohms so far and did a slow sweep from 10kHz to 100MHz. I had the Vpp measurement running and took a history record of this, see attached screenshots. If this is the result of inadequate hardware or the instrument not being calibrated over the full range has yet to be found out.

The ugly ringing on square or other waveforms with steep edges apparently is the result of the anti-aliasing filter after the DAC. This filter seems to be pretty effective with the edge at round about 115MHz. Since this means, all the higher frequency components of a square wave (which aren't present anyway at the output of a 250MSa/s DAC) are missing from the signal, the mentioned observations may just be obvious. Attached you will find two more screenshots visualizing this.

BTW, if you take a look at the "solder side" of the main PCB, you get an idea how Rigol got away without any external shielding of the AWG's enclosure...it's simply one big ground plane. I wonder how many layers this board has. It's amazing they can sell this package for round about 200EUR (plus VAT if applicable).

I found some more peculiarities but these will follow probably tomorrow night...

Cheers,
Thomas

P.S. Altogether, I consider the DG811 so far as some of the best spent money. It's not an SDG6000X (which has its shortcomings as well) but as a general purpose AWG (hacked), there's little left to wish for (not to talk about the casing design...). Hardware-wise it's close to perfect and the firmware is surprisingly complete and stable. So if you're in the market for a decent AWG for your hobby electronics workbench, with the DG811 you can't go wrong!

Edit: The output level recorded for CH2 in the attached screenshots may not be completely accurate since I later identified a dodgy adapter that i used during this test. Further tests with a power meter actually indicate that both channels perform very similar, CH2 may be even slightly better than CH1.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 11:43:45 am by TurboTom »
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, timber23

Offline commongrounder

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #161 on: May 19, 2019, 12:19:08 am »
What about arb memory? Is there 16MB hidden in the 800 series that is made available with the “upgrade”?
 

Online TurboTom

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 592
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #162 on: May 19, 2019, 12:42:35 am »
What about arb memory? Is there 16MB hidden in the 800 series that is made available with the “upgrade”?

Of course -- the sample memory DRAM chip attached to the FPGA is an MT41K128M16JT-125 (128M*16) so this provides more than enough space for two channels of 16M*16 including double-buffering and what not. After having read @timber23's post I'm pretty sure the hardware of the DG8xx and DG9xx series is identical.

I may have to modify this last statement after having read @timber23's previous contributions: timber23, you specified you compared a DG992 to the Siglent SDG2000X, I assumed it was a "real" DG992 but now I'm not too sure anymore since apparently you've (also?) got an upgraded DG8xx. I guess we should be very careful and accurate with the designations of the instruments, i.e. I'ld never call my "pimped" DG811 a DG992.

We're just at the very beginning of this adventure and we cannot be sure yet that there really aren't any differences unless we had a close look at a "real" DG992. So far, my DG811 is a DG811 that "thinks" it's a DG992...  ;)

Cheers,
Thomas
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 06:02:21 am by TurboTom »
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #163 on: May 19, 2019, 06:37:54 am »
What about arb memory? Is there 16MB hidden in the 800 series that is made available with the “upgrade”?
timber23, you specified you compared a DG992 to the Siglent SDG2000X, I assumed it was a "real" DG992 but now I'm not too sure anymore since apparently you've (also?) got an upgraded DG8xx. I guess we should be very careful and accurate with the designations of the instruments, i.e. I'ld never call my "pimped" DG811 a DG992.
Sorry for the confusion. I modified my post for clarity.
@commongrounder : You said that you own a DG952. Maybe you can perform some test, which we can compare our "pimped DG811s" to.

Maybe someone has an idea for a test-setup which can distinguish a sample rate of 250 MSa/s from 125 MSa/s.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 06:48:43 am by timber23 »
 

Online TurboTom

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 592
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #164 on: May 19, 2019, 07:02:20 am »
Sample rate is 250M on the "DG811+++" otherwise it wouldn't be possible to output 100MHz at all and we should observe bad aliasing above 62.5MHz output frequency. I'm quite certain that even the original DG8xx sereis samples at 250M, maybe arbitrary waveforms are limited to 125MSa/s, doubling each sample. It should also be possible by checking when (i.e. at what frequencies) the instrument outputs a "clean" square wave without edge jitter. These frequencies would need to be whole-number factors of the sampling rate, so by figuring out a few it should be possible to deduce on the latter. Will look into this more closely in the evening.

Edit: Added the screen shot of my sample rate test. I used an arbitrary waveform with as many steep edges as possible for that. The reason is that the "controlled edge technology" that Rigol calls "SiFi2" is not operational in Arb mode. This means, slopes are defined by just a single sample interval, also recognisable by the slightly faster rise/fall times and (even) more ringing. Now I selected a frequency at which the signal cannot be reproduced by full integers of the sampling frequency, resulting in edge jitter. I measured the time between the two traces that are shown when the scope "averages" over several scans and calculate the frequency which should resemble actual sample rate. And voila, 250MHz!
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 10:56:10 pm by TurboTom »
 
The following users thanked this post: maxwell3e10

Offline idolclub

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 2
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #165 on: May 19, 2019, 11:22:39 am »
HOW TO CHANGE RIGOL DG800/DG900 MODELS

1. Get a blank formatted USB disk (capacity >= 1GB)

2. Write signature in the disk with the following command (in linux):

        sudo dd if=DG800_sardinha.bin of=/dev/sda1 bs=512 seek=2000000



Amazing !!  DG811 free upgrade to DG992.  :-+
 

Offline frozenfrogz

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 888
  • Country: de
  • Having fun with Arduino and Raspberry Pi
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #166 on: May 19, 2019, 12:11:39 pm »
I am going to go through this: DG900 performance verification guide and see what gives.
He’s like a trained ape. Without the training.
 
The following users thanked this post: timber23

Offline commongrounder

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #167 on: May 19, 2019, 01:21:56 pm »
I’m willing to perform tests with my DG952, if given the exact procedure.  I’m curious whether paying a premium for the 900 series got me more than a black cabinet color!
 

Offline Kodovo

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 5
  • Country: fi
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #168 on: May 19, 2019, 02:46:56 pm »
Out of stock in Batronix already  ::)

Wow, there is now up to 40 days lead time for the orders.  Placed my today.
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #169 on: May 19, 2019, 08:36:40 pm »
I am going to go through this: DG900 performance verification guide and see what gives.
Thank you for this Guide. I performed the Harmonic Distortion Test using my Siglent SSA 3021X. My pimped DG811 (aka DG992) passed all scenaios on both channels. Please find attached the resulting screenshots.
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, bitseeker, frozenfrogz

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 795
  • Country: pt
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #170 on: May 19, 2019, 08:40:43 pm »
I performed the Harmonic Distortion Test using my Siglent SSA 3021X. My pimped DG811 (aka DG992) passed all scenaios on both channels. Please find attached the resulting screenshots.

Nice work and good news!
 
The following users thanked this post: maxwell3e10

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #171 on: May 19, 2019, 08:58:04 pm »
That's looking good, timber! How does it look at 100 MHz, just to complete the range?
I TEA.
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #172 on: May 19, 2019, 09:20:12 pm »
That's looking good, timber! How does it look at 100 MHz, just to complete the range?

As you requested, here are the results for 100MHz. This test is not part of RIGOL's "DG900 Performance Verification Guide". Furthermore I add the fall/rise-time and overshoot test. I performed the tests with respect to the beforementioned guide.

It is funny that my channel 2 has less overshoot than channel 1, because channel 2 was disabled before unlock...

Just for completeness: This is how my measurement setup looks like.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 09:29:54 pm by timber23 »
 
The following users thanked this post: maxwell3e10, frozenfrogz

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #173 on: May 19, 2019, 09:38:14 pm »
That's looking good, timber! How does it look at 100 MHz, just to complete the range?

As you requested, here are the results for 100MHz. This test is not part of RIGOL's "DG900 Performance Verification Guide".

Thanks. Looks good. Since the spec table in the guide said less than -35 dBc for any frequency over 40 MHz, I just had to see if it could make it all the way to 100 MHz. It certainly does. :-+

Quote
Furthermore I add the fall/rise-time and overshoot test. I performed the tests with respect to the beforementioned guide.

Does the rise/fall time measurement change much if you use a faster timebase? I'd get more slope visible on screen (i.e., instead of a vertical line) for measurement purposes.
I TEA.
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #174 on: May 19, 2019, 09:50:53 pm »
Does the rise/fall time measurement change much if you use a faster timebase? I'd get more slope visible on screen (i.e., instead of a vertical line) for measurement purposes.
No, it doesn't change much. I adjusted the timebase to 1µs in the previous test, because it is specified in the guide. Now I changed it to 10ns. Please find attached the resulting measurement.
 
The following users thanked this post: maxwell3e10

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #175 on: May 19, 2019, 09:55:12 pm »
OK, cool. Thanks for checking, timber. I feel more confident seeing it measured this way. :-+
I TEA.
 

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #176 on: May 20, 2019, 02:52:41 am »
HOW TO CHANGE RIGOL DG800/DG900 MODELS

1. Get a blank formatted USB disk (capacity >= 1GB)

2. Write signature in the disk with the following command (in linux):

        sudo dd if=DG800_sardinha.bin of=/dev/sda1 bs=512 seek=2000000


This sounds great! Does anyone know how to do this on Windows? What file system should the USB be formatted to? What is the equivalent signature command?
 

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #177 on: May 20, 2019, 04:34:17 am »
Here's a good place to start: https://www.google.com/search?q=dd+for+windows

I haven't tried dd on non-Linux platforms, but if one of them supports all the parameters, it should work.
I TEA.
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #178 on: May 20, 2019, 06:15:28 am »
HOW TO CHANGE RIGOL DG800/DG900 MODELS

1. Get a blank formatted USB disk (capacity >= 1GB)

2. Write signature in the disk with the following command (in linux):

        sudo dd if=DG800_sardinha.bin of=/dev/sda1 bs=512 seek=2000000


This sounds great! Does anyone know how to do this on Windows? What file system should the USB be formatted to? What is the equivalent signature command?
I used a virtual machine (VMware) with Xubuntu installed. VMware player or VirtualBox are free software and the procedure works. Inside a VM you won't do any damage to your system, if you use dd command wrong. Installation is nowadays straight forward. Opening a terminal should be easy. Finding the correct device path to USB drive is also easy, when knowing the command, e.g. "lsblk" or maybe "sudo lsblk". Knowing the correct path leads to the dd command introduced by tv84. That's it.
 

Online TurboTom

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 592
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #179 on: May 20, 2019, 07:26:25 am »
Since I also didn't have a Linux machine available (my Linux netbook silently vanished in my epic mess...too many projects at a time...and I was too lazy to wire up a Raspi) I used a free disc editor (HxD) to manually enter the eight "magic" bytes at the beginning of sector 2000000 of the thumb drive. Worked a treat.

Regarding the performance of a "pimped" DG811, it clearly doesn't match the specs of a DG9xx. The latter is specified with an amplitude accuracy of +-1dB above 40MHz and we're consitently seeing close to -3dB @ 100MHz on the modified DG8xx's. We've got to figure out how the calibration of the DG9xx is supposed to work to finally be able to tell if there's a hardware difference -- maybe actually the DG8xx series utilizes a different output opamp than the DG9xx series since two of the THS3091 that I'ld expect there would add considerably to the BOM...
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 07:27:56 am by TurboTom »
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, Kosmic

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #180 on: May 20, 2019, 08:14:56 am »
Since I also didn't have a Linux machine available (my Linux netbook silently vanished in my epic mess...too many projects at a time...and I was too lazy to wire up a Raspi) I used a free disc editor (HxD) to manually enter the eight "magic" bytes at the beginning of sector 2000000 of the thumb drive. Worked a treat.

Cool :-+
I TEA.
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #181 on: May 20, 2019, 08:37:32 am »
Since I also didn't have a Linux machine available (my Linux netbook silently vanished in my epic mess...too many projects at a time...and I was too lazy to wire up a Raspi) I used a free disc editor (HxD) to manually enter the eight "magic" bytes at the beginning of sector 2000000 of the thumb drive. Worked a treat.

Regarding the performance of a "pimped" DG811, it clearly doesn't match the specs of a DG9xx. The latter is specified with an amplitude accuracy of +-1dB above 40MHz and we're consitently seeing close to -3dB @ 100MHz on the modified DG8xx's. We've got to figure out how the calibration of the DG9xx is supposed to work to finally be able to tell if there's a hardware difference -- maybe actually the DG8xx series utilizes a different output opamp than the DG9xx series since two of the THS3091 that I'ld expect there would add considerably to the BOM...
Your approach, using HexEditor, is much better than mine if someone has no Linux available. Thanks for sharing.

Did you spot any parts on the PCB which could cause this ~ -3dB attenuation?

Maybe the user with his DG952 could upgrade to DG992 and check if his amplitude at 100 MHz is within +/- 1dB ?
 

Offline idolclub

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 2
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #182 on: May 20, 2019, 09:03:04 am »
Here's a good place to start: https://www.google.com/search?q=dd+for+windows

I haven't tried dd on non-Linux platforms, but if one of them supports all the parameters, it should work.
There is no need to install linux, just download Ubuntu Linux ISO and running Ubuntu directly from either a USB stick or a DVD.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 02:39:24 pm by idolclub »
 

Online TurboTom

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 592
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #183 on: May 20, 2019, 11:36:31 am »
After another, more thorough reading of the DG900 performance verification guide, it appears that the "improved" DG8xx may actually match the requirements of the DG992!

First of all, the performance specs list the amplitude accuracy as "typical" which basically means you can forget all the number that follow...  :o

Then, the verification procedure of the amplitude accuracy asks just for a test at 50MHz as the highest frequency where the output amplitude has to be +-1dB accurate -- which shouldn't be a problem for a modified DG8xx.

---------

Just did it correctly and pulled my 437B / 8482A power meter out to do the amplitude accuracy test "the proper way". At the specified test frequencies for the DG992, my "DG811+++" performs better than within one tenth of the permitted error margins on both channels. I further tested for the frequency of 1dB amplitude drop, which were 81MHz and 85MHz for channels 1 and 2. At 100MHz I measured a drop of 2.16dB and 1.83dB, respectively.

So we may actually be up to a surprise if we'ld get a chance to test a "real" DG992...  >:D
 

Offline Zack

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 1
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #184 on: May 20, 2019, 02:43:23 pm »
maybe actually the DG8xx series utilizes a different output opamp than the DG9xx

The Motherboard part numbers 2010004229 in the the DG800 and DG900 are identical, comparing the Service Guides.

https://www.rigol.com/File/TechDoc/20190213/DG800_ServiceGuide_CN.pdf
https://www.rigol.com/File/TechDoc/20190213/DG900_ServiceGuide_CN.pdf
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, TurboTom

Online TurboTom

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 592
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #185 on: May 20, 2019, 05:20:43 pm »
@Zack -

welcome to the forum and great finding! This should actually wipe away all my (our?) concerns regarding differences between DG800 and DG900 series, the hardware is identical and hence the performace should be the same after the upgrade. I'm curious if there's a calibration guide available on the chinese site already?

During my tests of the "DG811+++" I found a few peculiarities:

It's good to see that parameter changes (frequency) of sine output takes place without any glitches. Square and Pulse waveforms provide (almost) glitch-free parameter changes (frequency, symmetry/pulse width, slope) up to frequencies of 1MHz, above that, the signal pauses for a few milliseconds at half the signal level (i.e.[Vmax+Vmin]/2).
The "almost" mentioned above means that once in a while I was able to catch a strange high frequency glitch of several superimposed frequencies when changing the frequency setting, see attached screenshots.
Ramp and Arb waveforms always pause for a few milliseconds upon parameter changes.

Amplitude changes only cause glitches if the internal attenuators switch ranges. Yet, this happens rather often. I found such switching events (50 Ohms output impedance selected, for high-impedance, double the specified figures) to take place at 2.5mV, 6.4mV, 16mV, 40mV, 100mV, 256mV, 640mV*, 1.6V and 4V. It's quite peculiar that the 640mV switching event takes place without an audible relay click. If a glitch-free level sweep is required, the output signal can be amplitude modulated by an internal ramp.

I also did the "PAL raster frequency test" (outputting two ramps of 50Hz and 15625Hz and observing the relative phase) that my SDG6000X failed at and found the "DG811+++" to fail as well. The phase should stay constant, i.e. the frequencies should stay locked against each other, but I find them to walk through at very slow pace in an incremental manner, see the third and fourth screen shot. They can be brought back to the original relation by pressing the "Align" button.

Considering the price of the "unimproved" instrument  ;), these small problems may be tolerable, especially since they are really of minor importance for the average user.

Btw, the very nice touch screen is extremely well integrated into the UI concept, it's obvious that the whole UI had been designed with the touch panel in mind instead of other manufactures' approaches where it's plain to see that a touch panel had been added to an existing firmware package and it more or less only duplicates functions that can be accessed via the key pad as well.

Cheers,
Tom


P.S. Just for fun I aded a fifth screen shot where I compared the rise times of the edges in Pulse mode between the "DG811+++"  and my "SDG6000X-I" ("I" =  improved...must be chosing the equipment upon the possibility to hack...  >:D) Hint: The measured rise time of the SDG is rather limited by the scope used than by the generator!
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 07:03:37 pm by TurboTom »
 
The following users thanked this post: maxwell3e10, timber23

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #186 on: May 20, 2019, 05:49:51 pm »
@TurboTom -thanks for digging into it. I already ordered one.  It will be fun to compare against Keysight 33522.
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #187 on: May 21, 2019, 12:57:15 am »
I did not find any remote control software for DG800/900. Because I wanted to control the device from PC, I wrote a small Python script.
I used Python 3.7 with PyQt5 and PyVISA. If you do not have it: After installing Python3 you can install PyQt5 with "pip install PyQt5" and PyVISA with "pip install pyvisa"
The GUI is made using Qt Designer.

To change a value type it in and press [enter].

Execute from command line with all three files in same folder: "python myDG800.py"

The script is "work in progress". Maybe it is of some use for anybody...
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, bitseeker, WhichEnt2, bd139

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #188 on: May 21, 2019, 01:04:43 am »
Looks cool, timber. Thanks for using Python 3.
I TEA.
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #189 on: May 21, 2019, 02:56:01 pm »
I have the opportunity to do some measurements with a real DG992. It seems that at least at the top end of the frequency range, the real one is better.

I did an initial comparison. If you have special requests, let me know. But I am not allowed to open the device.

Please note that I used the same cable for all the tests. The second cable in the photo above let to misleading results.

Somehow the pimped DG811's signal is a little bit attenuatet (-2.2 dBm) at 100MHz.

Best regards
Timber

 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, TurboTom, frozenfrogz

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 795
  • Country: pt
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #190 on: May 21, 2019, 03:23:42 pm »
timber,

Convert the 992 to 811 and do the same tests.
 

Online TurboTom

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 592
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #191 on: May 21, 2019, 05:01:48 pm »
@timber23 --
Great that you had the opportunity to test a genuine DG992, and thanks a lot for the info.
Since we know that the hardware of the DG800 and DG900 series is identical, I'ld assume that it's all about a different calibration of the two flavors.
This means one way or the other we've got to get hold of the calibration instructions...

Cheers,
Thomas
 

Offline Kosmic

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 686
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #192 on: May 21, 2019, 05:37:09 pm »
Another possibility is that they test the boards after production and sort them by performance. The good performer goes for the DG992 and the average for the other models.
 

Offline frozenfrogz

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 888
  • Country: de
  • Having fun with Arduino and Raspberry Pi
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #193 on: May 21, 2019, 07:06:08 pm »
Another possibility is that they test the boards after production and sort them by performance. The good performer goes for the DG992 and the average for the other models.

That was exactly my guess.
He’s like a trained ape. Without the training.
 

Offline bitseeker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7852
  • Country: us
  • Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #194 on: May 21, 2019, 07:23:22 pm »
It's possible that they bin the final boards by performance, but it may simply be that the calibration just isn't performed at frequencies above their model designation.

Being able to recalibrate the generators would take care of either case. So, that would be the important next endeavor.
I TEA.
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 795
  • Country: pt
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #195 on: May 21, 2019, 07:50:17 pm »
I bet on calibration. That's why I asked timber to convert the 992 in a 811/812 and do some tests.
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1998
  • Country: hr
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #196 on: May 21, 2019, 08:35:23 pm »
With today process control and components, I would be surprised if there was any significant spread in specs across batches. Any spread is calculated in into parameter calibration range. They save money calibrating amplitude for smaller bandwidth.
Short version: I also highly doubt there is binning, only partial calibration. Binning actually cost money, they would avoid it, leaving only shorter calibration as a savings on lesser models..
 
The following users thanked this post: tv84, TurboTom

Offline Kosmic

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 686
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #197 on: May 21, 2019, 08:46:49 pm »
With today process control and components, I would be surprised if there was any significant spread in specs across batches. Any spread is calculated in into parameter calibration range. They save money calibrating amplitude for smaller bandwidth.
Short version: I also highly doubt there is binning, only partial calibration. Binning actually cost money, they would avoid it, leaving only shorter calibration as a savings on lesser models..

Make sense.
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1291
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #198 on: May 21, 2019, 09:21:12 pm »
Processor: https://www.ti.com/product/AM3352

That is a nice processor board, price seems not bad for TI, $6 for 1GHz A8.
J1 connector seems to just be to prevent you from plugging it in backwards! The connections don't go anywhere. There is a very small risk though of that board falling out, if there is excessive shock during transportation.

Ram (2pc): https://www.micron.com/products/dram/ddr3-sdram/part-catalog/mt41k128m16jt-125-it
DDR3-1600 256MB ~$8

Relay (12pc): http://www.hongfa.com/product/detail/70689a00-9d73-4802-b0ac-e36561332f57
HFD4/4.5-S <$1 ea

DAC (if its the one reported above): https://www.analog.com/en/products/ad9747.html#product-overview
AD9747 Dual 16-Bit 250 MSPS $16
AD9743/AD9745/AD9746 are reported as lower bit rate (10, 12, 14-bit) so probably cannot be swapped in, but who knows? They could still be using the same die.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 09:26:25 pm by thm_w »
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #199 on: May 22, 2019, 12:45:11 am »
I conducted the following test:
First DG922 connected to Rigol MSO5000 via BNC and 50ohm termination.
I put DG922 in all possible modes using channel 1.
I measured every 100 KHz Vpp starting at 1 MHz up to maximum frequency using SCPI commands (one command to set freq. and one for measuring).
After finishing all modes for DG922 I disconnected the BNC cable from DG922 and connected it to DG811. After that I performed the same measurements for all modes again.

All measurements were added to an excel sheet (see file attached).

This is how the plot of the data looks like. Until 55MHz the results are very similar. After that there is a difference between DG992 and DG811, independed of the mode set.
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, tv84, TurboTom, maxwell3e10, frozenfrogz, Kosmic, Sighound36

Offline frozenfrogz

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 888
  • Country: de
  • Having fun with Arduino and Raspberry Pi
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #200 on: May 22, 2019, 12:58:51 am »
Until 55MHz the results are very similar. After that there is a difference between DG992 and DG811, independent of the mode set.

That looks about what I am seeing on my hax0red DG812 (though I do not have that sophisticated kind of gear to really verify).

Thank you for going through all the effort! :)  :-/O


Edit: There is no calibration manual available yet for either DG800 or DG900 series, but as these are available for more or less the rest of the line-up it might be just a matter of time to see it pop up here:

https://www.rigol.eu/calibration/
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 01:02:53 am by frozenfrogz »
He’s like a trained ape. Without the training.
 
The following users thanked this post: timber23

Offline toshas

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 9
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #201 on: May 22, 2019, 09:00:27 am »
I'm looking for compatible usb-lan adapter.
Could you share working models ?
Already tried Lenovo FRU03X6903 (RTL8153) and Dlink DUB-1312 (AX88179) with no success "adapter not found".

P.S. tv84 reported that r8188eu.ko module is included, does it means that usb-wifi is possible too?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 09:52:07 am by toshas »
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 795
  • Country: pt
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #202 on: May 22, 2019, 09:09:04 am »
All measurements were added to an excel sheet (see file attached).

This is how the plot of the data looks like. Until 55MHz the results are very similar. After that there is a difference between DG992 and DG811, independed of the mode set.

This is precisely what I asked for although I still haven't processed the pic fully!! : ;D

So, one thing is certain:

we may not be able to create an official 992 without adjustments, but a 952 is guaranteed.

Right?

PS: Thank you timber for all that work.

P.S. tv84 reported that r8188eu.ko module is included, does it means that usb-wifi is possible too?

I think the answer is yes.
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #203 on: May 22, 2019, 09:44:30 am »
I'm looking for compatible usb-lan adapter.
Could you share working models ?
Already tried Lenovo FRU03X6903 (RTL8152) and Dlink DUB-1312 (AX88179) with no success "adapter not found".

P.S. tv84 reported that r8188eu.ko module is included, does it means that usb-wifi is possible too?

I have tried this one. It is not working, just shows the LXI-symbol, but does not get IP address.
Code: [Select]
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 0bda:8152 Realtek Semiconductor Corp. RTL8152 Fast Ethernet AdapterIt is a noname device, looks white with "75.007.24/JP208" written on the side.
 

Offline toshas

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 9
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #204 on: May 22, 2019, 09:53:15 am »
I'm sorry FRU03X6903 has RTL8153.
 

Offline toshas

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 9
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #205 on: May 22, 2019, 06:35:53 pm »
Also tried TP-Link UE200 (RTL8152B) with no luck.

Finally found this one : D-Link DUB-E100 rev. D1 (AX88772), vid:pid 2001:1a02 and it works!

:phew:
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 06:38:36 pm by toshas »
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, bitseeker

Offline rtv

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1291
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #207 on: May 24, 2019, 06:26:12 pm »
For whatever reason I didn't have any luck with Ultra Sigma to send the SCPI command. *IDN? was able to receive a response so that part was working OK. Tried restarting PC and now Ultra Sigma won't even connect, it just crashes when I try to right click the DG811, or closes the window.

So I tried in pyvisa and it worked OK. If anyone else wondering, there is no response back from the instrument after the command is sent. Then the model will be changed right away in sys info, after this you can restart the instrument and limits/UI will then be updated.

Quote
rm = pyvisa.ResourceManager()   #'@py' will not find the DG800
print(rm.list_resources())

gen = rm.open_resource('USB0::0x1AB1::0x0643::DG8A2xxxxxxxx::INSTR')

 #Request ID string
print(gen.query('*IDN?'))

 #Change model
gen.write(':PROJ:MODE DG992') #works but no response: print(gen.query(':PROJ:MODE DG992'))

 #Close the connection
gen.close()
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 06:36:41 pm by thm_w »
 

Offline frozenfrogz

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 888
  • Country: de
  • Having fun with Arduino and Raspberry Pi
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #208 on: May 28, 2019, 11:15:41 am »
Since I am getting quite some personal messages regarding how to perform the upgrade I thought it might be useful to elaborate on the method that was kindly put forward by tv84.

dd bs=512 seek=2000000 skips 2*106*512 bytes of memory before writing the contents of the image file. Hence, the USB stick needing to have more memory than 1Gb.

In short: When the DG### sees the contents of the image file on a USB medium from byte 1024000000 onward, it will be listening to the "special" SCPI commands.

My first try was formatting with OS X Diskutility (GUI) and then write the image via dd on the command line. However, SCPI hack did not work afterwards.
Second try I deleted the Volume with diskutil from the command line and then wrote the .img via dd and my DG812 would start as a DG992 on next reboot.
There is no confirmation / ACK sent back by the device though (at least I did not get a response code via SCPI) and you will only see if it worked after restarting the device.

In case you do not know how to use diskutil, how to identify the correct mount point and how not to screw up your other hard drives / media connected to the computer you are working on, please get familiar with what dd and diskutil actually do. It is quite easy to shoot yourself in the foot with those tools. ;)

Please let me know if you need more information.

Also, there is a dd port for Windows: http://www.chrysocome.net/dd
It is quite an old release and I did not try it myself, but maybe this is of use to some of you.

Kind regards
Frederik
He’s like a trained ape. Without the training.
 

Offline gossamer

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 7
  • Country: ie
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #209 on: May 28, 2019, 12:58:33 pm »
I had some issues with preparing the partition on the usb flash drive from OSX. I ended up using linux VM and followed this tutorial: https://www.redips.net/linux/create-fat32-usb-drive/

after which I dd the file and everything went smooth.
 

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #210 on: May 28, 2019, 09:41:20 pm »
I got mine to upgrade. I used HxD to edit the USB drive and MATLAB tmtool to connect to the instrument. It went smoothly. You can tell that the upgrade worked when the color scheme changes and even the output LEDs switch color from green to red.

I tested briefly the DG811(->DG992) in comparison with Keysight 33500B series. There are obvious limitations of the DG811: overshoot and time jitter are worse, I will post some data later. So, it can't replace a higher-quality generator, but probably a good deal for 1/4 the price of a used Keysight.
 

Online TurboTom

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 592
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #211 on: May 29, 2019, 06:15:08 am »
Just noticed that using CH2 and the frequency counter are mutually exclusive. Apparently, the hardware resources (FPGA cells / grunt) won't permit contemporary operation. Considering the market that Rigol's new(ish) low end AWGs are intended for, the integration of a frequency counter may make some sense, especially since Rigol's implementation is quite nice, providing statistics and graphical display. But including it and providing an extra BNC input for the counter and then skimping on the hardware in that way is ridiculous!  ::)

Edit: Some more playing around seems to indicate that the situation is still way more severe if the counter function is enabled: If statistics is active, I won't be able to enable sweeps and other more complex functions on channel 1! Moreover, the generator always reverts to sine waveform. When changing to square wave, duty cycle appears to be limited. I guess a major firmware fix is required from Rigol to set this straight! Shame, I thought Rigol this time got a half-way bug-free instument out but this seems to prove me wrong.
Very strange: After power cycling the instrument and reconfiguring the aformentioned setup, I wasn't able to reproduce my findings and the AWG appears to work as expected.  :-//
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 08:55:32 am by TurboTom »
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #212 on: May 29, 2019, 03:59:28 pm »
I played a bit more with mine DG811(DG922) and seem to have found that it has terrible voltage noise level. If  confirmed by others, it would indicate that 16 bit resolution is nothing but a marketing gimmick!

Here is the simple setup: 10Vpp (Hi-Z) sine wave at 1 kHz with 5 Vdc offset. So the bottom of the sine wave is at 0 V. Now zoom onto the bottom of the wave with an oscilloscope set to 50mV/div or 100 mV/div. Note that not all oscilloscopes can do it, it needs to have a good overload recovery. Among the ones I tried, Owon and Tek could zoom in, while Keysight and Micsig could not.
Here are a couple of pictures comparing the noise level  of DG811 (channel 1, top trace) with Agilent 33500 and with Rigol DG4162, both are much better than DG811.
I have mistakenly tested the noise level while adding extra noise using the waveform combine feature. See message below.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 07:13:37 pm by maxwell3e10 »
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #213 on: May 29, 2019, 06:12:43 pm »
I played a bit more with mine DG811(DG922) and seem to have found that it has terrible voltage noise level. If  confirmed by others, it would indicate that 16 bit resolution is nothing but a marketing gimmick!
I repeated your measurement using Siglent SDG2042x as a reference. The DG800's trace is displayed in yellow and the SDG2042x's trace is displayed in blue. I do not see any terrible noise level. Everything seems fine.
 

Online TurboTom

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 592
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #214 on: May 29, 2019, 06:24:48 pm »
@maxwell3e10 -

I replicated your tests with an ultra-low frequency square wave (since then the overdrive tolerance of the scope input isn't as relevant to the test) and found more or less similar noise figures for the DG811 and the DG4102, both averaging at round about 850µVRMS. Interestingly (but not unexpectedly), the output of the Siglent SDG6000X is much more noisy with figures round about 3.1mVRMS (bandwidth of at least 500MHz). The spectrum of the DG811 appears to be just white noise without the sampling filter drop at ~120MHz which leads to the assumption that the noise is really generated in the analog output section. I think adding screenshots doesn't make much sense since they look rather boring, the only important figure is the RMS measurement...

Since my Rigol scope isn't as tolerant to input overdrive than the model(s) you used, I cannot replicate your test with the sine wave output directly. And I'm too lazy to pull out the TEK2465 from the darkest corner of the basement for the test... ;)
 

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #215 on: May 29, 2019, 07:08:48 pm »
Duh! Yesterday I was playing with the feature of combining two waveforms on one channel and added noise to it, then forgot to turn it off! Thanks for checking it and setting me straight, TurboTom.

So now that I turned off extra noise, the noise level of DG811 is just a bit worse than Keysight 33500 (see below). It is very similar to the level of noise from DG4162.
 

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #216 on: May 30, 2019, 02:45:25 am »
Here is a more detailed comparison of the residual noise spectra for Keysight 33500B and DG811 generators. It is taken again near the bottom of the sine wave. I assume the noise rise around 200 kHz is due to switching noise of the ADC. So it appears that DG811 actually has less ADC noise while it has more analog broadband noise, but that can potentially be filtered out.
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #217 on: May 30, 2019, 03:44:05 pm »
With low pass filtering at 30 kHz using Micsig scope one can indeed see that DG811 (recorded on Ch 1) is quieter at low frequency than Keysight 33500B (Ch 2). This is recorded for a 0.1 Hz 10Vpp sine wave. I was hoping to see individual ADC steps, which should be equal to 0.15 mV for 16 bit ADC with 10V full range. But the noise is just a bit too high.
 

Offline timber23

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: de
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #218 on: May 30, 2019, 04:35:23 pm »
With low pass filtering at 30 kHz using Micsig scope one can indeed see that DG811 (recorded on Ch 1) is quieter at low frequency than Keysight 33500B (Ch 2). This is recorded for a 0.1 Hz 10Vpp sine wave. I was hoping to see individual ADC steps, which should be equal to 0.15 mV for 16 bit ADC with 10V full range. But the noise is just a bit too high.
I have repeated your measurement using Rigol MSO5000 to display the sine-wave. You have to change vector-view to dot view. Then the individual ADC steps are visible.
 

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #219 on: May 30, 2019, 05:15:30 pm »
Yes, there are steps, but they are due to time discretization not ADC bits. Notice the step size is about 1 mV. Apparently Rigol used only 2^15 time steps in calculating the sine wave. Here are the measurements using DMM7510 with very slow frequency of 0.1 mHz. Near the top and bottom of the wave the signal is smooth. But on the slope one can see the time steps and even a glitch when the sine wave crosses zero.
Perhaps they can update the firmware, for a 16 bit generator one needs about 2^18 time steps. Otherwise, one can generate a arbitrary waveform with more points.
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Offline geezer458

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 2
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #220 on: May 30, 2019, 08:44:34 pm »
Two things about this unit I do not like:

They advertise 250 MHz sampling for ARB or at least strongly imply that. In fact, ARBs that you load up as signed 16 bit integers are played out at a maximum rate of 60 MHz. If there is any trick to do this better I'd like to know it.

If you use external modulation it is filtered and then (apparently) sampled at 1 MHz and then digitally multiplied without interpolation, so unless you like ugly waveforms it's not really useful for anything above audio frequencies. I admit that the second item is a bit of an optimistic stretch on my part but it is (as usual) very misleading to state that the analog modulation has a BW of 1 MHz because that makes you think you could use it at 100 kHz and it would be OK. Not!

I don't think they understand what an arbitrary waveform is. They provide a bewildering array of strange waveforms that they made up from math functions and other stuff and you can select an arbitrary waveform from that group. And everything from that group has their 250 MSPS mumbo jumbo going on, but an actual arbitrary waveform is left out in the cold, so to speak.

 

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #221 on: May 30, 2019, 09:08:11 pm »
Welcome to the forum.  In the spec for DG800/900 it says the external modulation bandwidth is 50 kHz. For comparison 33500B has 100 kHz analog modulation bandwidth. I haven't tested that feature.
 
The following users thanked this post: geezer458

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1291
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #222 on: May 31, 2019, 12:00:15 am »
Yes, there are steps, but they are due to time discretization not ADC bits. Notice the step size is about 1 mV. Apparently Rigol used only 2^15 time steps in calculating the sine wave. Here are the measurements using DMM7510 with very slow frequency of 0.1 mHz. Near the top and bottom of the wave the signal is smooth. But on the slope one can see the time steps and even a glitch when the sine wave crosses zero.
Perhaps they can update the firmware, for a 16 bit generator one needs about 2^18 time steps. Otherwise, one can generate a arbitrary waveform with more points.

The step size is 200uV in his screenshot. I'm seeing 70uV as the lowest discrete step, which is a limitation of the oscilloscope (1mV * 10 / 255 = 40uV, close enough). To use a DMM makes more sense as you've done I think.

I can't see any noticeable difference between the MSO5000 internal generator (AD9744 14-bit), and the DG811 for sine wave (1kHz, 0.1Hz), in terms of noise, etc.

If I look at the horizontal time step, DG800 has a discrete step of 32us (15-bit as you've measured). Internal generator has a step of ~76us (14-bit) for 1Hz sine.
So might report to Rigol, see what they say.

edit: 8Mpts memory should be capable of 125ns division with a 1Hz signal. 1Mpts = 1us. So the limitation shouldn't be that memory, even if you half it for 2 channels. Could it be it takes long to load the memory?
edit2: sent info to rigol.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 12:29:07 am by thm_w »
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1291
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #223 on: May 31, 2019, 12:39:44 am »
They advertise 250 MHz sampling for ARB or at least strongly imply that. In fact, ARBs that you load up as signed 16 bit integers are played out at a maximum rate of 60 MHz. If there is any trick to do this better I'd like to know it.

But it doesn't say 250MHz in the spec anywhere, its very clear:
https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-08a0/1/-/-/-/-/DG800%20Datasheet.pdf
https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-08a1/0/-/-/-/-/DG900%20Datasheet.pdf

240MHz frequency counter, 35MHz for sine, 20MHz for arbitrary waveform.

You will find the same advertising on Keysight and other generators, in terms of Msps figures.
 

Offline geezer458

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 2
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #224 on: May 31, 2019, 04:53:28 pm »
Thanks :)   I will own the fact that I didn't read every line of the DG900 datasheet I quote below in a jpeg attachment
(not sure how to make it inline). I think you could see why after viewing the imaged snippet that I was satisfied that I
could use the modulation feature at 100 kHz. There were duplicate sets of lines after that referencing Internal/External
and a 1 MHz BW over and over, and I had already read something about the input impedance in another place. I had
seen what I was looking for already and didn't find my way down to the "catch" where they say the BW is 50 kHz. I'm
not sure that I would like the results of modulation at 50 kHz either but at the end of the day I would agree that the
fault is mine. Caveat Emptor.

About the sampling, here is the content of the current advertisement on Amazon:

100MHz Function Generator, 2 Channel, 250MSa/sec, 16Bit Resolution, 16M Memory
100 MHz function / arbitrary waveform generator
16 Mpts memory depth per channel for arbitrary waveforms

and here is what is at the top of the data sheet mentioned by thm_w:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unique SiFi II (Signal Fidelity II) technology: generate the arbitrary
waveforms point by point; recover the signal without distortion; sample
rate accurate and adjustable; jitter of all the output waveforms (including
Sine, Pulse, etc.) as low as 200 ps
16 Mpts memory depth per channel for arbitrary waveforms
Standard dual-channel with the same performance, equivalent to two
independent signal sources
...
Sample rate up to 250 MSa/s, vertical resolution 16 bits
Arbitrary waveform sequence editing function available; arbitrary
waveforms also can be generated through the PC software
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't remember, but I must have read the material below that and perhaps
wondered what they meant by:

Basic Waveforms Sine, Square, Ramp, Pulse, Noise, DC, Dual-tone
Advanced Waveforms PRBS, RS232, Sequence
Built-in Arbitrary Waveforms 160 types of waveforms, including Sinc, Exponential Rise, Exponential Fall, ECG, Gauss, HaverSine,
Lorentz, etc.
.....
Sequence 2 k to 60 MSa/s
Noise (-3 dB) 100 MHz bandwidth
Arbitrary Waveform 1 μHz to 15 MHz 1 μHz to 20 MHz 1 μHz to 20 MHz

It looked like what they meant by ARB waveform was their collection of functions so I chose, perhaps correctly,
to connect the 20 MHz limit with those things, believing that they referred to a limit for playing out predetermined
lists of points. And that may not be wrong.

What I should have understood is that, by their terminology what I was doing was an "Advanced" "Sequence"
to which the limit 2 k to 60 MSa/s applies.

Well, all right.

In the end, I made a generous interpretation based on the headlines and what I wanted it to be. I didn't call them
because it was likely to be a waste of time. Very few companies anymore let you talk to people who aren't reading
canned scripts. I have bought exactly two pieces of Rigol gear and was very favorably impressed with their capabilities
so this time when the item provided less value than I expected rather than more it made me unhappy.

Unfortunately I didn't know that there was a big thread about this unit before I bought it and I think reading that might
have stayed my hand. I am not a regular reader of EEVBLOG, shame on me!
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 05:01:23 pm by geezer458 »
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #225 on: May 31, 2019, 05:09:35 pm »
Edit: Added the screen shot of my sample rate test. I used an arbitrary waveform with as many steep edges as possible for that. The reason is that the "controlled edge technology" that Rigol calls "SiFi2" is not operational in Arb mode. This means, slopes are defined by just a single sample interval, also recognisable by the slightly faster rise/fall times and (even) more ringing. Now I selected a frequency at which the signal cannot be reproduced by full integers of the sampling frequency, resulting in edge jitter. I measured the time between the two traces that are shown when the scope "averages" over several scans and calculate the frequency which should resemble actual sample rate. And voila, 250MHz!
So it seems that it can output an arbitrary waveform at 250MHz, but I am not sure if its one of the pre-programmed ones, or a custom one.
 

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #226 on: May 31, 2019, 06:30:39 pm »
Here is another screenshot of the steps in sine wave. This is for a 1 Hz 20Vpp wave. DG811 is yellow, 33500B is blue. If I didn't know any better, I would say at first glance DG811 is not really a 16-bit sine wave, more like 13 bit. But it is due to 2^15 time steps. The Keysight has 4 times as many, 2^17 steps.



This affects only low-frequency sine signals. For frequencies above 7.6kHz one cannot output more than 2^15 steps anyway at 250MS/sec.  Still, generating high-fidelity signals in the audio band is something it should be capable of doing. So hopefully Rigol can address this with a firmware upgrade. Do you know who on this forum represents Rigol?
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, ogden

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1291
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #227 on: May 31, 2019, 08:27:33 pm »
This affects only low-frequency sine signals. For frequencies above 7.6kHz one cannot output more than 2^15 steps anyway at 250MS/sec.  Still, generating high-fidelity signals in the audio band is something it should be capable of doing. So hopefully Rigol can address this with a firmware upgrade. Do you know who on this forum represents Rigol?

Oh good point I didn't consider the frequency aspect of that. No one on this forum represents Rigol, but I have updated my case that it would only effect lower frequencies (250M/32768 = 7.6kHz).

They must have something in the software already to decimate the 15-bit calculations when outputting, say a 30MHz sine right? So hopefully its not too hard to add.
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1291
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #228 on: June 01, 2019, 12:17:35 am »
Response:

Quote
The 16 bit refers always to the voltage levels not the time base.

The DG800 has a variable time base in reality. The standard waveform functions like sine wave have a standard about 32K length to the table that defines them. This is much deeper that our other instruments actually.

The way we talk about what you are asking about is really memory depth. The memory depth of the standard waves varies from 9000 or so up to what you are seeing. But the arb mode enables waves as deep as 8 Million points. So, you can create a 1 Hz signal that changes every 125 nanoseconds if you need.

Sounds like they store all of the pre-computed waveforms in flash (faster to load?).
So I don't expect an improvement to be made here. If we need a better signal, we have to create it in Arb. timber23's GUI could be modified to load a high-res ARB version, instead of using the internal waveform, for example.

Keysight 33500B is ~$3,400 btw, even most expensive DG992 is only $1000. I guess its asking for a bit much.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 12:21:39 am by thm_w »
 

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #229 on: June 01, 2019, 05:57:40 am »
I think the problem comes when you need a sine wave with an odd frequency, like 7 Hz, that is not a multiple of the clock rate. I am not sure if the arbitrary wave has the Si-Fi interpolation, so one ends up with some time jitter.

A used Keysight 33500B is about $1200, so the "upgrade" path is the only way that DG800 makes sense.
 

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #230 on: June 03, 2019, 02:35:06 pm »
Here is a comparison of DG811 (yellow Ch1) with DG4162 (blue Ch2) outputing 20Vpp, 1 Hz sine wave.
One can see that DG4162 uses 2^16 time steps. Even though it is has a 14-bit ADC, the steps are smaller than in DG811.

Its funny that so far every generator (DG811, 33500B, DG4162) I looked at has a glitch when the sine wave crosses zero. Why can't anyone program a sine wave without a bug.
 
The following users thanked this post: commongrounder, thm_w

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 795
  • Country: pt
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #231 on: June 03, 2019, 02:49:26 pm »
Its funny that so far every generator (DG811, 33500B, DG4162) I looked at has a glitch when the sine wave crosses zero. Why can't anyone program a sine wave without a bug.

Maybe the problem it's not on the DG's side...  ::)
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1137
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #232 on: June 03, 2019, 04:30:17 pm »
... just curious, is there also a comparison with Rigols 1062Z somewhere ?
 

Offline Sighound36

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 27
  • Country: gb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #233 on: June 03, 2019, 05:56:43 pm »
Sorry if this sounds a tad simple, why not just upgrade the clock and localized decoupling as the unit is only a few hundred $ maybe that way the software may have less to re assemble at its critical point? or is that just to pie in the sky?

On the 822 unit we have, happy to undertake the work on this.
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1291
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #234 on: June 03, 2019, 09:55:22 pm »
Sorry if this sounds a tad simple, why not just upgrade the clock and localized decoupling as the unit is only a few hundred $ maybe that way the software may have less to re assemble at its critical point? or is that just to pie in the sky?

On the 822 unit we have, happy to undertake the work on this.

Please explain further, upgrade which clock and decoupling to improve what? I don't think digital decoupling will change anything here.
If a better reference clock is needed, then you can feed 10MHz into the back of the instrument.
 

Offline tv84

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 795
  • Country: pt
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #235 on: June 04, 2019, 09:28:24 pm »
 
The following users thanked this post: bitseeker

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1291
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #236 on: June 04, 2019, 10:23:34 pm »
Added all DG800 SCPI commands here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lists-of-rigol-scpi-commands/

Thanks, I  put the "hidden" commands from your list in that thread.

Some of the interesting ones (response on the right):
:PROJect:PWM:FREQuency? -> '2'
:PROJect:PWM:FINe:CH? -> '0.000'
:PROJect:PWM:LEVel:CH? -> '0.000'

Ones that can only be written:
:PROJect:KEY
:PROJect:DAC:AMP:CH
:PROJect:DAC:OFFSet:CH
:PROJect:MODE
:PROJect:SN

Calibration stuff (I can't read anything back, seems like its just write commands?)

:SOURce<n>:CALibration:RANGNUM
:SOURce<n>:CALibration:SETVALUE
:SOURce<n>:CALibration:MEASVALUE
:SOURce<n>:CALibration:STORE
:SOURce<n>:CALibration:RECALL
:SOURce<n>:CALibration:PRESet
:SOURce<n>:CALibration:DATE
:SOURce<n>:CALibration:HIGHest

Unsure if any of the PROJ commands other than MODEl need a USB key inserted to work.
edit: guide is here btw, I'm impressed that there are ~470 SCPI commands/queries.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 10:27:05 pm by thm_w »
 
The following users thanked this post: bitseeker

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #237 on: June 09, 2019, 01:10:56 pm »
Here are some time jitter std. measurements for a square wave. Both function generators are locked to the oven clock of the HP53310A. DG811 works reasonably well until one gets to low frequencies.

              33500B   DG811
10 Hz         56 ps     396 ps
100 Hz        45 ps      58 ps
10 MHz        42 ps      40 ps

10.1 Hz      292 ps     924 ps
100.1 Hz     107 ps     509 ps

7 MHz        104 ps     147 ps
15 MHz        52 ps     134 ps
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 01:15:13 pm by maxwell3e10 »
 
The following users thanked this post: commongrounder, thm_w, bd139, eYc

Offline drummerdimitri

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 379
  • Country: lb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #238 on: July 08, 2019, 11:47:47 pm »
Can anyone please make a video showing how to "hack" a DG8XX to a DG992 as I've been reading the instructions posted on here and it's like I'm reading Chinese  :palm:
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1291
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #239 on: July 09, 2019, 01:25:31 am »
Can anyone please make a video showing how to "hack" a DG8XX to a DG992 as I've been reading the instructions posted on here and it's like I'm reading Chinese  :palm:

So where are you running into issues with tv84s post, let us know:

- Have you tried creating the USB key (1GB or larger)?
- Did you download HxD or dd program attempt to modify the drive?
- Do you know how to send SCPI commands to the instrument?

Someone posted a USB image file but can't find the post at the moment.

edit here is the image post: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/need-help-hacking-dp832-for-multicolour-option/msg2475702/#msg2475702
beware it will re-partition the USB drive to ~32MB (but can be undone with diskpart -> clean in windows if needed).
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 10:23:19 pm by thm_w »
 

Offline drummerdimitri

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 379
  • Country: lb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #240 on: July 09, 2019, 09:37:39 am »
Can anyone please make a video showing how to "hack" a DG8XX to a DG992 as I've been reading the instructions posted on here and it's like I'm reading Chinese  :palm:

So where are you running into issues with tv84s post, let us know:

- Have you tried creating the USB key (1GB or larger)?
- Did you download HxD or dd program attempt to modify the drive?
- Do you know how to send SCPI commands to the instrument?

Someone posted a USB image file but can't find the post at the moment.

I have a 64 GB flash drive that is formated as NTFS is this correct or does it need to be FAT32?
I did download HxD but I have no clue how to use it or what to modify in the drive.
I have no idea how to send SCPI commands. I'm assuming those will be sent through the back USB port?

The instructions aren't clear for someone who's never had a crack at this type of thing.
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1291
  • Country: ca
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #241 on: July 09, 2019, 09:05:58 pm »
Bought a cheap adapter and it works OK: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32945323919.html (check out the text on the front)
Chipset is 8152B, so part of the drivers mentioned earlier in this thread.

The clearance across the isolation gap is not very good. Shouldn't matter much for this use.

I have a 64 GB flash drive that is formated as NTFS is this correct or does it need to be FAT32?
I did download HxD but I have no clue how to use it or what to modify in the drive.
I have no idea how to send SCPI commands. I'm assuming those will be sent through the back USB port?

The instructions aren't clear for someone who's never had a crack at this type of thing.

No it should be FAT32, I would recommend finding an older smaller USB key if you have one but that might work.
- Download HxD, run the program, select Tools -> Open Disk -> uncheck "open as readonly" at the bottom -> Select the USB drive (make sure it says Removable Disk as type) and click OK
- At the top where it says Sector, enter 2000000 and press enter
- Copy the magic bytes from tv84's sardinha bin file (0B0A3B2E5F4CECBE), on the top select Edit and then "Paste write"
- Click Save
- Eject USB key
- Plug USB key into back of instrument, it will show the USB symbol in the top right if its detected. You can see if the drive can be opened in the DG800 menu if you like as well, but it won't indicate if it is the magic key or not.

You can send SCPI commands with USB on the back port yes, or ethernet with adapter.

https://hackaday.com/2016/11/16/how-to-control-your-instruments-from-a-computer-its-easier-than-you-think/
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/ca/driver-pages/remote-control/instruments-drivers-vs.-plain-scpi-commands_231246.html
https://github.com/eez-open/studio (only works with ethernet)
 
The following users thanked this post: drummerdimitri, ogden, timber23

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #242 on: July 09, 2019, 10:42:00 pm »
Slightly off-topic, but I have been looking for a small VISA implementation to send SCPI commands over USB. How many MB of code does it take to tell the computer to send an ASCII string over USB?
R&S have a 30 MB VISA implementation
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/ca/driver-pages/remote-control/3-visa-and-tools_231388.html
which is better than Tektronix and Keysight, that seem to be around 100 MB.

Does anyone know any other simple stand-alone VISA application?
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Offline drummerdimitri

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 379
  • Country: lb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #243 on: July 09, 2019, 11:17:43 pm »
Bought a cheap adapter and it works OK: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32945323919.html (check out the text on the front)
Chipset is 8152B, so part of the drivers mentioned earlier in this thread.

The clearance across the isolation gap is not very good. Shouldn't matter much for this use.

I have a 64 GB flash drive that is formated as NTFS is this correct or does it need to be FAT32?
I did download HxD but I have no clue how to use it or what to modify in the drive.
I have no idea how to send SCPI commands. I'm assuming those will be sent through the back USB port?

The instructions aren't clear for someone who's never had a crack at this type of thing.

No it should be FAT32, I would recommend finding an older smaller USB key if you have one but that might work.
- Download HxD, run the program, select Tools -> Open Disk -> uncheck "open as readonly" at the bottom -> Select the USB drive (make sure it says Removable Disk as type) and click OK
- At the top where it says Sector, enter 2000000 and press enter
- Copy the magic bytes from tv84's sardinha bin file (0B0A3B2E5F4CECBE), on the top select Edit and then "Paste write"
- Click Save
- Eject USB key
- Plug USB key into back of instrument, it will show the USB symbol in the top right if its detected. You can see if the drive can be opened in the DG800 menu if you like as well, but it won't indicate if it is the magic key or not.

You can send SCPI commands with USB on the back port yes, or ethernet with adapter.

https://hackaday.com/2016/11/16/how-to-control-your-instruments-from-a-computer-its-easier-than-you-think/
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/ca/driver-pages/remote-control/instruments-drivers-vs.-plain-scpi-commands_231246.html
https://github.com/eez-open/studio (only works with ethernet)

Thanks for that quite helpful!

I was able to edit the USB as mentioned above and the USB icon showed up on the main screen of my DG811 but I'm confused about why anyone would need a USB to Ethernet adapter as it doesnt have a LAN port  :-//

Anyway, since I only have a windows PC and that link seems to be for raspberry Pi, how to I send the commands via USB connected to my PC?

 

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #244 on: July 09, 2019, 11:29:25 pm »
Anyway, since I only have a windows PC and that link seems to be for raspberry Pi, how to I send the commands via USB connected to my PC?
Download R&S VISA (see link above) and use their Tester tool to send the commands
 

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #245 on: July 11, 2019, 09:53:41 pm »
I found this minimalistic USBTMC implementation with a windows command-line interface:
https://github.com/xyphro/WinUsbTmc

I installed the driver and it recognizes the device is connected, but so far I haven't been able to make it work.
 

Offline drummerdimitri

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 379
  • Country: lb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #246 on: July 13, 2019, 11:18:25 am »
Anyway, since I only have a windows PC and that link seems to be for raspberry Pi, how to I send the commands via USB connected to my PC?
Download R&S VISA (see link above) and use their Tester tool to send the commands

I did but have no idea how to use the software.
 

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #247 on: July 13, 2019, 11:54:42 am »
Start Tester 32 bit, go find resources menu and click find resource. The generator should show up as USB:...
Then click on it and click connect. In the text window on the right type *IDN?\n, click query and  see if it responds. If not, go to Choose visa implementation menu and try different options then disconnect and connect again. Once it responds to *IDN?\n command, then you can execute other commands.
 
The following users thanked this post: drummerdimitri

Offline drummerdimitri

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 379
  • Country: lb
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #248 on: July 13, 2019, 02:14:22 pm »
Start Tester 32 bit, go find resources menu and click find resource. The generator should show up as USB:...
Then click on it and click connect. In the text window on the right type *IDN?\n, click query and  see if it responds. If not, go to Choose visa implementation menu and try different options then disconnect and connect again. Once it responds to *IDN?\n command, then you can execute other commands.

Ok so I was able to configure the software to get a response from my DG811.

Now what's the next step to convert it into a DG992?
 

Online maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #249 on: July 13, 2019, 02:57:13 pm »
Now you are just one step away! Send

:PROJ:MODE DG992\n

and then restart the generator.
 

Offline drummerdimitri

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 379
  • Country: lb