Author Topic: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series  (Read 192455 times)

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Offline CeD

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #650 on: November 10, 2020, 10:04:55 pm »
I hope we're gonna get some info about calibration.

I wonder if we couldn't "simply" find a way to put a DG922's calibration file onto a DG812/811 ... It would already be much better than with "zero calibration above 30Mhz" which seems to be the case of hacked 8xx models currently (and mine included)
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #651 on: November 10, 2020, 10:27:34 pm »
I hope we're gonna get some info about calibration.

I wonder if we couldn't "simply" find a way to put a DG922's calibration file onto a DG812/811 ... It would already be much better than with "zero calibration above 30Mhz" which seems to be the case of hacked 8xx models currently (and mine included)

Sorry, you seem to confuse something here... Level accuracy is pretty much spot-on up to approx. 70MHz. Over the last 30MHz of the 992's frequency range, the "improved" 811/812/822 AWGs suffer a drop of approx. 2.5dB, give or take a little. Attached you find a sweep of 0~100MHz of a sine wave, levels set to 0dBm, -20dBm and -40dBm, respectively. Of course, the vertical scale of 10dB/div makes the level accuracy look better, but still I'ld say it's not too bad. Bad enough to know that it could still be better...  ;)
 

Offline CeD

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #652 on: November 10, 2020, 10:58:48 pm »
Well I’ve not made my own observations so far as I just « improved » my dg812 ; but i’ve seen in the early pages of this thread some graphs that showed the voltage of a 2Vpp signal seriously going down around 30 and down to nearly divided by 5 around 60 MHz and up ?
Good news if the perf is better but I’ve seen graphs like this at two places  in this thread so I’m confused indeed :)
 

Offline DaveR

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #653 on: November 10, 2020, 11:35:27 pm »
And who tells that Rigol doesn't already use the THS3491 -- the markings are lasered off

I doubt whether they will be THS3491s, Tom - as I recall, they weren't generally available until late 2018 and the DG800/900 series was already in production by then, probably based on design work carried out in 2017.  If they are TI op amps they will be most likely 3091/3095s, (unless there has been a recent design change, with calibration changes to go with it).  Who knows?
 
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Offline maxwell3e10Topic starter

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #654 on: November 18, 2020, 03:35:51 pm »
My upgraded DG811 suddenly froze when I was playing with touch screen and when I restarted it doesn't boot up any more. The progress bar goes to the end, but then nothing happens. I am not sure if it is just invalid configuration or a hardware problem. Does anyone know if there is a key combination that would reset it to default state on start-up?
 

Offline maxwell3e10Topic starter

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #655 on: November 18, 2020, 05:48:51 pm »
It looks like pressing Align key at start-up resets the generator to default state and now it boots up fine.
 

Offline uinika

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #656 on: November 19, 2020, 04:04:28 pm »
THX for ur share, I wanna buy a DG812, but I found the firmware is already upgrade to 00.02.05.00.00.
I am not sure ur progress will works fine in it... :-//
My world of IT, learn it & play it.
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #657 on: November 19, 2020, 10:24:09 pm »
Works -- first, downgrade to F/W 2.02 pressing [Help / Local] repeatedly directly after turning on the instrument. Then use @Coder69's instructions just a little up the page. Finally, you can upgrade to 2.05 again: Attention, currently this firmware version is only available for the DG2000 series, but they share the same hardware with the DG800/900 series, so just install it.
 

Offline uinika

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #658 on: November 20, 2020, 02:32:05 am »
RIGOL's official documentation says that downgrades are not supported in 00.02.05.00.00. and all of the recent machines come pre-loaded with 00.02.05.00.00.

So, has anyone ever degraded from 00.02.05.00.00 version?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 02:36:31 am by uinika »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #659 on: November 20, 2020, 07:38:12 am »
RIGOL's official documentation says that downgrades are not supported in 00.02.05.00.00. and all of the recent machines come pre-loaded with 00.02.05.00.00.

So, has anyone ever degraded from 00.02.05.00.00 version?

Yes.!
I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

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Offline uinika

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #660 on: November 20, 2020, 08:15:13 am »
I think U r siglent Fans....
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #661 on: November 20, 2020, 09:33:53 am »
I think U r siglent Fans....

Over 60 year hobby and also part of this time working with electronics and electrics. Designed and made some things including  military and some industrial and done whole lot of things and projects in industrial automation systems designing, repairing, problems solving, evaluating and after then all these hobbies from astronomy to biology etc and main hobby electronics and specially radio things...

How can say I am any kind of fanboy for any single product brand. Oh well, in history I have been tiny bit Hewlett-Packard, Tektronix, R&S and Rockwell-Collins and Racal, Digital (DEC) fan"boy"  :-DD  Time ago I keep even some collections about these...

But yes, some times I have been more interested with some than some other and also due to fact.. if someone really want I can also sell. I can only sell things what I know. Im not "salesman" who can sell what ever he look may give profit. No, I sell things what I know, accept and can give technical support and even arrange some help if need. Many times after someone try buy example Siglent I can tell what is good place/shop for buy. And it is not question about money. I have all what I need for my rest life. Some times it is fun and some times also retired people need things what keep brain somehow in condition.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 09:40:18 am by rf-loop »
I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the wises gone?
 
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Offline uinika

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #662 on: November 20, 2020, 10:02:25 am »
Thanks for your kindness, but I am only care about Rigol DG811 & related issues now.
My world of IT, learn it & play it.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #663 on: November 20, 2020, 11:25:31 am »
Thanks for your kindness, but I am only care about Rigol DG811 & related issues now.

It was -- you ;) "I think U r siglent Fans...."

With 02.05  first you need do is take cal and memory copy, just for cases something goes really bad. If you do not afraid this can jump over.
There is available method for this backup copy...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-16-bit-function-generators-dg800900-series/msg3272174/#msg3272174

Just including .GEL file to USB root and insert USB to running DG and when it ask you want FW update then yes (aftere then it run this small script). It write this data to this USB flash. So you need many USB or take them out and save.

Note, NAND backup takes long time and after it is ready rolling image stops rolling but it do not finish... I wait 5 minutes after rolling image stop  and after then I shot DG off and take USB and read... all was there. I think it can also just pull out without power off.
This backup calib is much faster and after some time it stops and goes out. But  if you do not take USB out then after some time it ask again do you want update... just cancel this.
after this or if you have jumped over this backup...

next step is downgrade it to official 02.02 FW.


Previously in this thread you can find link for download this official FW2.02  (it is one @tv84 message what is this link and nothing more.)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-16-bit-function-generators-dg800900-series/msg3035640/#msg3035640

This downgrade need do so that you insert this USB and after then power on with repeatedly pushing "Help/Local" button.
 It do not work if DG us running and you insert this USB. Soon it ask do you want update and if you answer Yes it start... but it do not help at all.

It need do with this boot up method.

After your DG811 is normal DG811 but FW 02.02 then you can continue with much more critical things... following this

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-16-bit-function-generators-dg800900-series/msg3157600/#msg3157600

note. After position 3 is finished. Your original Serial is still not shown in DG system info screen because it looks like it read it only when booting. Shut off and boot. Now it read serial and display it if all have gone ok.


Btw, I am not sure but previously I read from some Rigol official info that overall FW update USB flash need be 8Gb or less and also then here I have seen it need be least over 1G.
Always it need be in genuine native  FAT32 and  I think 4k cluster size.
For "magig" USB stic needed later I recommend Full format instead of quick format to FAT32, 4k cluster. I did it with windows 7 64 and no any single problem. Of course other things can work but I have done with these.


All these instructions here lack some small information and then you need bit guess what to do when you see things in real world happen. Of course  this is because who write help instructions he know things but can not fully think what some other people do not know. Full perfect comprehensive manual for this hard work so it need read and read some comments here and collect all needed info BEFORE start doing and then do after all needed is ready.

Also after you have done downgrade to 2.02 succesfully test that you have tools for give SCPI commands. Example using Rigol UltraSigma.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 11:37:45 am by rf-loop »
I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the wises gone?
 
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Online tv84

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #664 on: November 20, 2020, 12:12:06 pm »
Adding my 2 cents: I don't see any reason why there should be the mid step downgrade to 2.02. One can downgrade directly to 1.08.
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #665 on: November 20, 2020, 12:18:46 pm »
I've got a suggestion to make for the AWG engineers of all brands, concerning the way level specifications are processed in case of an amplitude modulated output signal:

It's obvious that in the RF world, output level is referenced to the carrier level which stays constant. This results in an increased total output level once the carrier gets modulated (due to the power provided in the sidebands). On the other hand, in the (analog) signal processing world, it's prefered to set a fixed maximum signal amplitude, i.e. an amplitude modulation will be subtractive from the carrier, so it's absolute amplitude may never exceed the preset value. The latter is the way most AWGs work while the former is to be found on most RF signal generators.

Since many current top-of-the-range AWGs more and more cross the (frequency) border to entry-level RF signal generators (or could at least be potentially used as such in the lower frequency bands), why not include both of these options in the AWGs?

This could be easily done by making the ways AM is processed dependent on the output amplitude/level unit selection: If output amplitude is specified in units of Vpp, Vp, Vrms or similar  voltage-referenced unit, use the subtractive AM and limit the absolute ampitude of the output signal, whereas, if the output termination is specified as "load" (i.e. 50 Ohms) and "signal strength" is specified in dBm, use the RF signal generator convention and keep the carrier level constant. IMO, this would make good sense and will make all parties happy and wouldn't require an additional manu item that could be again some cause of confusion.

Just my 2ct, maybe it's some food for thought for future firmware releases of this and other AWGs...if some of the manufacturer's engineers read these topics that is  ;).
 
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #666 on: November 20, 2020, 01:30:13 pm »
I've got a suggestion to make for the AWG engineers of all brands, concerning the way level specifications are processed in case of an amplitude modulated output signal:

It's obvious that in the RF world, output level is referenced to the carrier level which stays constant. This results in an increased total output level once the carrier gets modulated (due to the power provided in the sidebands). On the other hand, in the (analog) signal processing world, it's prefered to set a fixed maximum signal amplitude, i.e. an amplitude modulation will be subtractive from the carrier, so it's absolute amplitude may never exceed the preset value. The latter is the way most AWGs work while the former is to be found on most RF signal generators.

Since many current top-of-the-range AWGs more and more cross the (frequency) border to entry-level RF signal generators (or could at least be potentially used as such in the lower frequency bands), why not include both of these options in the AWGs?

This could be easily done by making the ways AM is processed dependent on the output amplitude/level unit selection: If output amplitude is specified in units of Vpp, Vp, Vrms or similar  voltage-referenced unit, use the subtractive AM and limit the absolute ampitude of the output signal, whereas,
if the output termination is specified as "load" (i.e. 50 Ohms) and "signal strength" is specified in dBm, use the RF signal generator convention and keep the carrier level constant.
IMO, this would make good sense and will make all parties happy and wouldn't require an additional manu item that could be again some cause of confusion.

Just my 2ct, maybe it's some food for thought for future firmware releases of this and other AWGs...if some of the manufacturer's engineers read these topics that is  ;).

Fully agree this.  :clap:



« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 12:57:38 am by rf-loop »
I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the wises gone?
 

Offline Noy

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #667 on: November 25, 2020, 09:21:44 pm »
Got my DG811 device today.

SW: 2.5
Will try to downgrade / hack tomorrow..

Bought this Adapter:
€ 3,03  31%OFF | USB Ethernet Adapter Netzwerk Karte USB Lan Mini Netzwerk Adapter USB zu RJ45 10/100 Mbps Lan USB RJ45 Karte für mac PC Laptop
https://a.aliexpress.com/_BSGXbL
But its not found. DG says no Adapter found. Thought this one should work?
Found it in this thread here..

Edit: OK found the old post where it is said that a cable has to be connected to be found.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 09:46:46 pm by Noy »
 

Offline Noy

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #668 on: November 26, 2020, 01:27:43 pm »
Hack is working.. Thx to all "Big Brains" here!

Unfortunally the Ethernet Adapter is still not recognized. Even with cable inserted..?

Did i purchase the wrong adapter?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 02:41:54 pm by Noy »
 

Offline Jacon

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #669 on: November 26, 2020, 08:05:02 pm »
...
Did i purchase the wrong adapter?
Does it work OK connected to USB port of ordinary computer?
 

Offline Noy

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #670 on: November 26, 2020, 08:33:03 pm »
I cracked it open and it was not a realtek nor asix chip. Then i saw (seller writes it) its RC8512 never heared of.
Will try it tomorrow with my PC. But ordered a New one from Aliexpress 10€ with Asix 88772 (ugreen 10/100)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 08:39:11 pm by Noy »
 

Offline Hobbit13

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #671 on: November 30, 2020, 08:40:43 am »
Just bought two DG2052 for my professional work, won't bother with hacking a cheap DG8** when the boss pays ;)  ( I expect this is exactly the reason Rigol doesn't protect the version hacks very well. )
I like them and now I'm thinking of buying a DG812 and hacking it for hobby work.

My question: is there any difference in factory calibration for a single and dual channel version. I can imagine they only calibrated the first channel for the single channel versions. The other one is not used, and can be faulty without a legit customer every noticing. Price difference between a DG811 and DG812 is only 25 Euro, is it worth the risk?
 

Offline Noy

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #672 on: November 30, 2020, 09:04:57 am »
They have to calibrate both channels. Because second channel is official Software Option (key purchase only)
And with DG811 you will get a beautiful BNC "optional" dustcap :-D
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #673 on: November 30, 2020, 10:02:02 am »
Just bought two DG2052 for my professional work, won't bother with hacking a cheap DG8** when the boss pays ;)  ( I expect this is exactly the reason Rigol doesn't protect the version hacks very well. )
I like them and now I'm thinking of buying a DG812 and hacking it for hobby work.

My question: is there any difference in factory calibration for a single and dual channel version. I can imagine they only calibrated the first channel for the single channel versions. The other one is not used, and can be faulty without a legit customer every noticing. Price difference between a DG811 and DG812 is only 25 Euro, is it worth the risk?

Noy is correct -- get the 811 and receive a free BNC protector cap...  ;)

Since you've got access to a genuine DG2000 series instrument, may I ask you to backup the cal file using tv84's script and make it available to us?.

If we are lucky, the instruments that are "per se" available up to 100MHz may all be calibrated to this frequency and thus may help us figuring out the meaning of individual sections of the cal files, finally resulting in a "hybrid" cal file that may enable us to equalize the amplitude drop above 60...70MHz of the liberated DG800 series instruments. If you could provide this file, it would be a great favor to the community!

Thanks!
Thomas
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: New Rigol 16-bit function generators DG800/900 series
« Reply #674 on: November 30, 2020, 10:13:21 am »
Just bought two DG2052 for my professional work, won't bother with hacking a cheap DG8** when the boss pays ;)  ( I expect this is exactly the reason Rigol doesn't protect the version hacks very well. )
I like them and now I'm thinking of buying a DG812 and hacking it for hobby work.

My question: is there any difference in factory calibration for a single and dual channel version. I can imagine they only calibrated the first channel for the single channel versions. The other one is not used, and can be faulty without a legit customer every noticing. Price difference between a DG811 and DG812 is only 25 Euro, is it worth the risk?

Noy is correct -- get the 811 and receive a free BNC protector cap...  ;)


And this cap is nice. Inside well made cap there is also spring loaded rubber seal plate what enclose whole BNC.   ;)

Where I can buy more just these, (I mean these caps - with good price)?
I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the wises gone?
 


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