Author Topic: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope  (Read 1468768 times)

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Offline i4004

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #100 on: September 28, 2014, 07:48:18 pm »
PPS: Is Dave brazen enough to post a video telling people to hack the DS1054Z? I know it's not exactly a secret and Rigol is fully aware of the practice (they're probably reading this thread right now), but...

video should be made, because people started to search the yt instead of google.
(video of 30sec length, just the hack... )

It seems you guys are rather late to the party. We've been discussing, posting, rehashing, etc. about the UltraVision (and other new Rigol products) hacks on this blog for about a year and a half. Why would Dave feel compelled to do a video blog about it now?
have you tried searching this forum or the web for "DS1054Z"? do you see this thread in those results? or do you see some obvious hints on how to hack it?
don't be shy, input "DS1054Z hacking" in google....

also, why did dave post a video about hacking 1052? heck, all the data was on the web already...right?
(all i'm saying is that i would pay him to do it if i was rigol..ie to do review and end with hacking explained...30sec clip was not reference to dave, he makes longer videos...)

it's all about search and how easy or tough is it to find info. also 1054z is fairly new. even though his "brothers" (ie series) are not.

but yes, i was sleeping (didn't need (another) scope last month or last year) and i have less intention to read 2xx pages of "Sniffing the Rigol's internal I2C bus" thread just to find hacking info and what could go wrong and when.... (rig)lol.  ;)

fungus yes, not everyone will know what is hackable and how, some will just buy a 100mhz "original". (and that makes hack seem even more clever on rigol's behalf...win-win situation! they'll sell more 1054 because of hack, and they'll sell model 11 because somebody doesn't know about the hack...damn.....if you have such ideas you should be monopolist!  :-DD  i mean come on, even the dealers will help you hack it...)

i dunno how many of you are aware about another field where hacking means sales: satellite receivers used in europe.
otoh, hacking also means not everybody will be doing it, but if there ever was a fertile ground for hacking, it's scope users! you buy it because you like to tinker.....

it would be interestign to know how many 1052s rigol made/sold....
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 08:01:12 pm by i4004 »
 

Offline alank2

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #101 on: September 28, 2014, 08:05:42 pm »
What versions of firmware are available?  Are these hosted anywhere?
 

Offline marmad

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #102 on: September 28, 2014, 09:17:12 pm »
have you tried searching this forum or the web for "DS1054Z"? do you see this thread in those results? or do you see some obvious hints on how to hack it?
don't be shy, input "DS1054Z hacking" in google....

Googling "DS1000Z hacking" or "Rigol hacking" would make much more sense. And yes, it's quite easy to find the info on this forum with a slight investment of time.

Quote
also, why did dave post a video about hacking 1052?

That was 4 and 1/2 years - and a much smaller EEVblog - ago.

Quote
it's all about search and how easy or tough is it to find info. also 1054z is fairly new. even though his "brothers" (ie series) are not.

It's easy to find the information.

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and i have less intention to read 2xx pages of "Sniffing the Rigol's internal I2C bus" thread just to find hacking info and what could go wrong and when.... (rig)lol.  ;)

While I appreciate the desire to not have to do any work whatsoever for free stuff, that hardly seems like a great reason for Dave to make a video about it.  :)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 10:20:45 pm by marmad »
 

Offline i4004

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #103 on: September 28, 2014, 11:06:05 pm »
marmad, heh, you need to one me up....  :)

you probably would use 'DS1000Z', as you know about it (and still find zilch, same as search i mentioned). i wouldn't bet all people buying scopes think in series' numbers. infact i would say most would just think more precise info would be found if they input EXACTLY what they have. ie rigol product line/series don't play that much to them.
(this is a usual mistake technically minded folks do, they think everybody is equally tech. minded as them. they also think everybody is an active member of eevblog forum looking for new rigol scopes all the time?  :P)

as for forum search, did you try it? inform us do you get results from this page. or would you like me to make a screenshot?
sure
see attachment....

Quote
That was 4 and 1/2 years - and a much smaller EEVblog - ago.
you seem to be saying that rigol wants this as a dirty lil secret that everybody and nobody knows about?
while you're discussing about it for long time now? and people started to talk about hacking (not just here) as soon as it appeared.
doesn't add up.

Quote
It's easy to find the information.
no. you're biased because you're talking about it for a year and a half.
this scope is so new it's not mentioned that much on the web at all.
people just recently started to buy it and hack it. and are checking the rise/fall times to see if they actually got higher bandwidth.
(i'm talking about checked and rechecked info, ie people trying it and working for them..on this scope..not talking about any other rigol scope)

Quote
While I appreciate your desire to not have to do any work whatsoever for free stuff, that hardly seems like a great reason for Dave to have to make a video about it.
i did my work, didn't i mention the right thread? and key making web-page.
listen, do a bit of a social experiment, tell one of your friends to find instructions how to hack this scope, and inform us how it goes.  ;)
(but don't wait too  much, google will soon find this thread  ;D )
today, your friend would mostly find 1052 hacking info. other info would not be that obvious.

dave will make a review and i don't really care will he mention hack at all. i'm just predicting that rigol can expect higher sales if he does, but i'm not suggesting he will talk about it (if he does) for that reason.
he bought one, so he can say anything he wants about it. and he should. good points, bad points, hacking points.  ;D
i would expect we all give such reviews of the gear we have.
if it's mine, i can hack it.
hell i could try eating those chips and pcbs if i'm inclined so.   >:D

Quote
That would imply I don't how to properly use a search engine.
know how. know-how.  ;)
(you edited/milden it down in meantime...but i'll leave it because you left "much more sense"...heh..but if you prove it, i'll erase all reference to it...)

edit/ it's over, google found us just now, now everybody knows!  ;D
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 11:32:14 pm by i4004 »
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #104 on: September 28, 2014, 11:54:34 pm »

Quote
That was 4 and 1/2 years - and a much smaller EEVblog - ago.
you seem to be saying that rigol wants this as a dirty lil secret that everybody and nobody knows about?
while you're discussing about it for long time now? and people started to talk about hacking (not just here) as soon as it appeared.
doesn't add up.
It adds up perfectly.

Rigol, like any other test gear manufacturer, cannot publicly endorse or appear in any way to approve of hacking the capabilities of their products. If they did much of the incentive for corporate and professional purchasers to purchase the upgraded models would vanish.

They may turn a blind eye to discussions in forums such as this, but if promotion of the potential for unlocking capabilities which have not been paid for becomes too blatant they are likely to take action.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #105 on: September 29, 2014, 12:03:19 am »
PPS: Is Dave brazen enough to post a video telling people to hack the DS1054Z? I know it's not exactly a secret and Rigol is fully aware of the practice (they're probably reading this thread right now), but...

I'm getting a loaner unit from the local distributor, so no, I won't be hacking that one out of professional courtesy. But once I get my own paid unit (which will take longer) then I can do with it what I please.
Making a video about it? that is always a grey area. Generally speaking if it involves a license keys in any way, then I believe that case law shows that this can be illegal, and any blogger would be foolish to make a video that involved that. This is also why it is forum policy not to host or post license keys (or firmware) on this forum for example.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #106 on: September 29, 2014, 12:18:05 am »
They may turn a blind eye to discussions in forums such as this, but if promotion of the potential for unlocking capabilities which have not been paid for becomes too blatant they are likely to take action.
They have already taken action against the hacks on many of the different models - with varying degrees of success. And it's obvious that they would: there's always going to be some voices in Rigol's management saying that they're losing money because of them. And of course, that leads to less time and energy spent on FW development, new features, debugging, etc.

I've got nothing against people hacking things - but I think it's silly to promote the hacks too blatantly. Anybody that REALLY wants/needs to find the info can locate it.

as for forum search, did you try it? inform us do you get results from this page. or would you like me to make a screenshot?
sure
see attachment....
I think you need to improve your search skills  ;)

Try Googling this: "DS1054Z hack site:https://www.eevblog.com/forum"

It really doesn't take much digging to locate the info.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 12:33:11 am by marmad »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #107 on: September 29, 2014, 12:34:17 am »
They have already taken action against the hacks on many of the different models - with varying degrees of success. And it's obvious that they would: there's always going to be some voices in Rigol's management saying that they're losing money because of them.

So why did "Rigol's management" allow a 100MHz upgrade via keygen? It's not a purchaseable option, why is it even in there?

Answer: It's marketing in its purest form.  It's the attention grabber - you can get yourself an expensive scope for the price of a cheap one!

(...by being naughty! And with (almost) zero risk!! What hacker doesn't want that?)

 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #108 on: September 29, 2014, 12:40:26 am »
You are assuming and you know what they say about what happens when you ass-u-me.

It's more a development savings by not having to do different models or run different designs and test them individually. Nothing to do with they allowing to purchase the software upgrade or not. Just plain development cost savings.

They have started to lock some of their power supplies, and they did attempt to lock some of their scopes.

Is kind of like NVidia, people are hacking consumer cards to the professional counterparts and I think they just announced that future drivers are going to actually check for the actual hardware to prevent the hacks.

They didn't let it open on purpose but once it's predominant and very public, you bet they are going to take action.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #109 on: September 29, 2014, 12:47:57 am »
They didn't let it open on purpose

You're saying it was an accident?

 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #110 on: September 29, 2014, 01:12:56 am »
No accident, just cheaper to use a single design for both high and low end offerings.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #111 on: September 29, 2014, 01:15:42 am »
No accident, just cheaper to use a single design for both high and low end offerings.

No argument about the hardware.

What about letting people change the model for a more expensive one by pressing buttons on the front panel. Was that an accident? Absolutely no way they could prevent it...?

 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #112 on: September 29, 2014, 01:32:32 am »
They tried to prevent it but they didn't use the algorithm properly and the private key kind of leaked, don't recall the details, they are buried in the monster thread somewhere.

The thing is that this has been going on for decades (selling higher end systems that have the same internals as their lower cost counterpart, but now it's hard to leave things unpopulated so they are software limited), also, as you know, the economy tanked and people became more resourceful and budget oriented. Fixing what they usually threw away, getting he best deal if it can be upgraded is more prevalent now, sure you could overclock PCs and some have done it but was not the norm.

If I had any problem with anything I would make a service call and pay up the inflated repair costs, I don't do that anymore even if i'm out of the hole compared to 5 years ago, but the budget mind took hold over the last 5 years.

Development requires a lot of testing, having a single platform reduces the testing considerably, but they still have to absorb the high end development cost so the higher offering. If I can just populate a connector to get a logic analyzer instead of paying for the full thing, or agilent with their upgradable modules with just the part number in some memory to unlock it, it's just reducing cost and hopping that like before no one will peek inside, but in our new more frugal society, they have to try harder.


 

Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #113 on: September 29, 2014, 01:45:12 am »
They tried to prevent it but they didn't use the algorithm properly and the private key kind of leaked, don't recall the details, they are buried in the monster thread somewhere.

We're talking about the 100MHz upgrade. It's not purchaseable. Why would they allow this change via buttons on the front panel if they didn't want to?

There's no way they couldn't have blocked this when releasing the new 50MHz model (which needed some firmware tweaks and supply chain changes anyway - to make it 50MHz).

PS: Why can't they change the private key if it leaked? Yes, it would be hacked again eventually but it would disrupt the hackers for a while.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #114 on: September 29, 2014, 01:51:26 am »
We're talking about the 100MHz upgrade. It's not purchaseable. Why would they allow this change via buttons on the front panel if they didn't want to?
Only one hardware/software combination to test and they decided to set it up so they can unlock it  via their options route because it was already implemented.

Quote
There's no way they couldn't have blocked this when releasing the new 50MHz model (which needed some firmware tweaks and supply chain changes anyway - to make it 50MHz).
Then they will have to test them separately, more cost on production and testing.

Quote
PS: Why can't they change the private key if it leaked? Yes, it would be hacked again eventually but it would disrupt the hackers for a while.
Because there are products in the wild already so it's too late.
I believe they actually did in some of their offerings.
 

Offline alank2

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #115 on: September 29, 2014, 01:58:16 am »
I think in certain environments they sometimes offer a bandwidth upgrade to sweeten the deal.  There was a guy here who bought a DS2072 with a 100M upgrade and they gave me an upgrade key as part of the purchase for example.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #116 on: September 29, 2014, 02:17:15 am »
We're talking about the 100MHz upgrade. It's not purchaseable. Why would they allow this change via buttons on the front panel if they didn't want to?

Rigol wanted to be able to build one scope and then decide which model it was just before shipping it.

 |O

They also wanted users to be able to change that model by pressing buttons?

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #117 on: September 29, 2014, 02:35:16 am »
No, that was a side effect of being able to do it at the factory.

 |O

But once the model number is set at the factory, is there any reason the firmware should let it be changed afterwards?

ie. The software could look like this:

Code: [Select]
if (currentModel==0x0000) {
  setTheModel();  // nb. This can only be done once
}
else {
  log("Somebody is trying to hack me!");
}
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #118 on: September 29, 2014, 02:53:29 am »
Is not like they expected someone to be able to bypass their security system.

And you don't know if they designed it to offer future upgrades after being sold in order to get extra sales of customers that bought their lower end scopes. Just because they currently don't sell the upgrades doesn't mean they didn't plan it to be able to.
 

Offline ziq8tsi

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #119 on: September 29, 2014, 03:15:59 am »
Generally speaking if it involves a license keys in any way, then I believe that case law shows that this can be illegal,
Does it?  I cannot see how it can possibly be illegal to buy a device and then type a key into the front panel.  If, however, the hack involves downloading or modifying firmware, then there is clearly a copyright issue.

Anyway, as far as I can see the DS1054Z does not need hacking to be super value.  I am seriously considering ordering one even before you review it, because I think it might go out of stock immediately afterwards.
 

Offline moemoe

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #120 on: September 29, 2014, 04:20:11 am »
I cannot see how it can possibly be illegal to buy a device and then type a key into the front panel.  If, however, the hack involves downloading or modifying firmware, then there is clearly a copyright issue.
Politicians make stupid laws, they have to do nothing with common sense.

Here in germany, it is illegal to bypass working (wirksam, not 100% sure how to translate it correctly as a legal term) copy protection – which also includes deCSS, which was already broken for years when this law came out.

And, on the same hand, with your argumentation all software keys would be free to share, you don't have to buy it. I'd say, with the riglol key you activate a part of the software you don't have a valid license for.
https://github.com/maugsburger/
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #121 on: September 29, 2014, 04:37:19 am »
I cannot see how it can possibly be illegal to buy a device and then type a key into the front panel.  If, however, the hack involves downloading or modifying firmware, then there is clearly a copyright issue.
And, on the same hand, with your argumentation all software keys would be free to share, you don't have to buy it. I'd say, with the riglol key you activate a part of the software you don't have a valid license for.

@ziq8tsi, On the same hand, it should be legal for me to obtain your credit card and all needed codes for me to purchase something and delivered to me out of your money because they are just software codes, that I just enter in a front panel (err website) :)

Edit: got the user wrong
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 04:39:34 am by miguelvp »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #122 on: September 29, 2014, 09:49:38 am »
Yes, that way if they have the programmed scopes in inventory, but they get orders for a different model, they can pull them out of the boxes, reprogram them, and put on new stickers.

Never going to happen.

Edit: But let's assume it did ... they're perfectly capable of flashing a temporary internal-use-only firmware that allows key changes, let it run, then re-flash the latest consumer firmware.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 09:56:52 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #123 on: September 29, 2014, 10:03:27 am »
Anyway, as far as I can see the DS1054Z does not need hacking to be super value.

Yep. I would have bought mine anyway.

I am seriously considering ordering one even before you review it, because I think it might go out of stock immediately afterwards.

The place I got mine from is already posting ">21 days" delivery time on their front page.

http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html

 

Offline Magnum

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #124 on: September 29, 2014, 11:52:09 am »

The place I got mine from is already posting ">21 days" delivery time on their front page.

http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z.html

Meilhaus has them on stock: http://www.meilhaus.de/en/rigol+ds1054z.htm
 


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