Author Topic: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope  (Read 1604838 times)

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Offline xrunner

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2225 on: June 02, 2016, 02:29:52 pm »
So for example, here is a 440 MHz sine wave as displayed on my DS1054Z (100 MHz hacked). Is the amplitude correct? No, but still, you can clearly use the scope to follow it through a circuit. Even going higher in freq. it still displays the signal but it starts to look a little squirrelly.
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Offline freebil

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2226 on: June 02, 2016, 02:32:45 pm »
Thank you very much for your help! For frequency meter of the scope, I assume that it shows wrong frequency. Right?
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2227 on: June 02, 2016, 02:42:51 pm »
... I assume that it shows wrong frequency. Right?

The built-in hardware frequency counter - oh hell it's way wrong. But, the frequency measurement you can choose from the left menu, derived from the sample data, it's actually pretty damn close, flickering a bit, but pretty close.  :)
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Offline metrologist

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2228 on: June 02, 2016, 03:45:27 pm »
I think I would rather rely on the cursors. Anyway, does the hack actually affect the signal trace of higher frequencies? You mentioned the 3dB point, so is this artificially induced on non-hacked scopes? Or what is the effect of this one hack?
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2229 on: June 02, 2016, 05:31:31 pm »
Although the hardware frequency counter can be wrong under certain circumstances, when I compared mine using the output of a calibrated function generator that I borrowed, it was spot on to the last decimal place.

So, don't just blindly assume that the number is correct. Verify that it makes sense either by looking at the wavelength and estimating the expected frequency, turn on the software frequency measurement from the menu on the left of the screen, or use the cursors.
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Online ebastler

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2230 on: June 02, 2016, 06:11:59 pm »
Anyway, does the hack actually affect the signal trace of higher frequencies? You mentioned the 3dB point, so is this artificially induced on non-hacked scopes? Or what is the effect of this one hack?

There is an actual analog low-pass filter in the scope's input. It is switchable to three different configurations under firmware control, and that is what distinguishes the different models in the DS1000Z series. A hacked DS1054Z will have the same input configuration as a DS1104Z.

Dave has done a video where he reverse-engineers the input section of the DS1000Z scopes and draws a schematic, if you are curious.
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2231 on: June 02, 2016, 06:30:06 pm »
Although the hardware frequency counter can be wrong under certain circumstances, when I compared mine using the output of a calibrated function generator that I borrowed, it was spot on to the last decimal place.

Hi bitseeker, what I was referring to in that post was the high frequency of 440 MHz, which cannot be measured by the hardware freq. counter.

I just did an experiment, which I hadn't tried ever before, to see how high the hardware and "software" freq. counters could be usable.

I found that the hardware counter basically stopped being usable at 103 MHz, so it's in some way still tied to the "official" or hacked BW. After 103 MHz, the readouts it gave were non-sensical. I was feeding the scope about 440 mV RMS from my generator. Maybe someone else can confirm this.

But the software freq. calculation was working (roughly) up to 440 MHz. It ain't a very accurate readout (+/- 5 MHz) at that high a frequency, but it was hanging in there.
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Offline Teneyes

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2232 on: June 02, 2016, 11:55:07 pm »
I think I would rather rely on the cursors. Anyway, does the hack actually affect the signal trace of higher frequencies? You mentioned the 3dB point, so is this artificially induced on non-hacked scopes? Or what is the effect of this one hack?
@Metrologist
So you can better understand BW control see:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg353571/#msg353571
To see how it is the hardware that sets the bandwidth . But the Bandwidth is selectable in the firmware.
We found out that the DS 70mhz was the same as 100mhz. That chip was the Lmh6518. A similar chip is used in the DS1054Z.
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2233 on: June 03, 2016, 12:31:13 am »
Hi bitseeker, what I was referring to in that post was the high frequency of 440 MHz, which cannot be measured by the hardware freq. counter.

Oh, I see. Is the amplitude just too small to trigger the hardware counter properly at that frequency? I don't know how steep the low-pass filter is on the input, but at some point the signal will be too small to count even though it's visible on the screen.
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Online ebastler

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2234 on: June 03, 2016, 06:57:52 am »
Oh, I see. Is the amplitude just too small to trigger the hardware counter properly at that frequency?

As xrunner stated in his post that the hardware counter already stops working at 103 MHz, it can't be due to the amplitude drop. There must be some other, timing-related limitation in the counter's implementation.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2235 on: June 03, 2016, 08:40:05 am »
You mentioned the 3dB point, so is this artificially induced on non-hacked scopes?

Yes.

The hack just turns off the artificial inducement.
 

Offline Athanasis

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2236 on: June 03, 2016, 09:11:34 am »
You mentioned the 3dB point, so is this artificially induced on non-hacked scopes?

Yes.

The hack just turns off the artificial inducement.

Guys I haven't hacked mine. Do you lose features by hacking it?


« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 09:15:12 am by Athanasis »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2237 on: June 03, 2016, 09:29:11 am »
Do you lose features by hacking it?

Yes, the 50MHz bandwidth limiter is disabled.
 

Offline Athanasis

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2238 on: June 03, 2016, 10:16:00 am »
Do you lose features by hacking it?

Yes, the 50MHz bandwidth limiter is disabled.

Ohh Shit..  :wtf: This is a serious loss. I will not upgrade.

 

Offline borjam

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2239 on: June 03, 2016, 10:22:22 am »

Ohh Shit..  :wtf: This is a serious loss. I will not upgrade.

I think this is a misunderstanding.

In order to become a 50 MHz oscilloscope, the 1054Z has a 50 MHz bandwidth limiter. Conversely, the 1074Z has a bandwidth limit of 70 MHz.

But this does not affect the optional 20 MHz limit in the analog channels, which I think you understood ;)

 

Offline Athanasis

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2240 on: June 03, 2016, 10:33:55 am »
borjam, thanks for your response but I was joking back to Fungus joke. You are definitely my friend now. Hopefully Fungus will not joke with me again and become my friend too !!!

 

Online Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2241 on: June 03, 2016, 11:13:56 am »
Do you lose features by hacking it?
Yes, the 50MHz bandwidth limiter is disabled.
Ohh Shit..  :wtf: This is a serious loss. I will not upgrade.
You also lose the length properties of the trigger menu and internal RAM.
 

Offline Athanasis

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2242 on: June 03, 2016, 11:58:22 am »
You also lose the length properties of the trigger menu and internal RAM.

Man I thought you were bullshitting. Tell me seriously. Why should I believe you?

 

Offline xrunner

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2243 on: June 03, 2016, 12:06:37 pm »
Oh, I see. Is the amplitude just too small to trigger the hardware counter properly at that frequency? I don't know how steep the low-pass filter is on the input, but at some point the signal will be too small to count even though it's visible on the screen.

You're possibly correct, but I do not know. I looked in the manual but I didn't find a specific specification for the hardware frequency counter

As xrunner stated in his post that the hardware counter already stops working at 103 MHz, it can't be due to the amplitude drop. There must be some other, timing-related limitation in the counter's implementation.

I may play around with it some more today. I'd like to know from somebody with an unhacked DS1054Z, what the frequency limit is on that hardware counter.
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Online Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2244 on: June 03, 2016, 01:04:56 pm »
You also lose the length properties of the trigger menu and internal RAM.
Man I thought you were bullshitting. Tell me seriously. Why should I believe you?

It's true! Both those items get bigger after the hack, ask anyone...  :-//
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 01:07:07 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2245 on: June 03, 2016, 01:05:10 pm »
It's easy enough to remove the "hack" and restore the original 1054z configuration, so you can test your own scope in both "hacked" and "virgin" mode.

Send the SCPI commands to the scope using your favorite method (I like telnet over LAN):

Use ":SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall" to go back to virgin DS1054Z (without the quotes)

Use ":SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX" to enter a key, where XXX is your 28 character key (without hyphens or quotes...)
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2246 on: June 03, 2016, 01:08:52 pm »
I may play around with it some more today. I'd like to know from somebody with an unhacked DS1054Z, what the frequency limit is on that hardware counter.

Nobody's ever tested this as far as I know. Is there a difference before/after?

 

Offline Athanasis

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2247 on: June 03, 2016, 02:42:52 pm »
It's easy enough to remove the "hack" and restore the original 1054z configuration, so you can test your own scope in both "hacked" and "virgin" mode.

Send the SCPI commands to the scope using your favorite method (I like telnet over LAN):

Use ":SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall" to go back to virgin DS1054Z (without the quotes)

Use ":SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX" to enter a key, where XXX is your 28 character key (without hyphens or quotes...)

thank you alsetalokin
 

Offline Teneyes

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2248 on: June 03, 2016, 03:32:12 pm »
It's easy enough to remove the "hack" and restore the original 1054z configuration, so you can test your own scope
Use ":SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall" to go back to virgin DS1054Z (without the quotes)
Use ":SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX" to enter a key, where XXX is your 28
I have file/ email with all the different option keys commands for my scope, I just cut and paste when switching options to test
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 
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Offline icamaster

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #2249 on: June 05, 2016, 10:47:52 am »
I just bought myself a DS1054z and it will arrive in a few days.
Expect from the 100MHz hack, what do you reccomend to do? Should I update it to the latest firmware, or leave it as it is?

Thank you
 


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