New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope

[Fungus]

Isn't Rigol America following the Rigol threads on this forum?

Why don't they step in and get their act together?

It should be very straightforward to fix the remaining bugs with the help of Rigol America.

Yes, it's weird that they don't take more interest.

There have definitely been cases on EEVBLOG where they actually listened and fixed things.

There was even a case where Rigol USA swapped somebody's scope for a new one because they couldn't reproduce a bug on any of theirs.

Lately though? Silence. And no firmware updates for a very long time. What's going on?

If I were a manufacturer I'd see EEVBLOG as a valuable resource for a) Product testing/feedback, and b) A place where you can earn a lot of brownie points by interacting and responding to problems.

[alsetalokin4017]

i'll add one to the mix: internal memory or any external usb drive, the last screenshot is not saved.
I press print once: it stops and save the screenshot, when i check there is no screenshot.

Never seen that (and it's something I'd notice).

 I doubt that you would. I've seen things like it too. For example, this last shot I posted. It was assigned #10, but it should have been assigned #12 since the previously saved shot was #11. SO I saved it again, and again it was assigned... #10. So I have two files with seemingly identical filenames now, both with the same content.

Though it might only be me

That would make no sense either. What sort of 'external USB drive' are you using?

Blame the user? ROFL.....

[alsetalokin4017]

Isn't Rigol America following the Rigol threads on this forum?

Why don't they step in and get their act together?

It should be very straightforward to fix the remaining bugs with the help of Rigol America.

Yes, it's weird that they don't take more interest.

There have definitely been cases on EEVBLOG where they actually listened and fixed things.

There was even a case where Rigol USA swapped somebody's scope for a new one because they couldn't reproduce a bug on any of theirs.

And would you care to guess who that "somebody" was? And just what was that particular bug?

Lately though? Silence. And no firmware updates for a very long time. What's going on?

If I were a manufacturer I'd see EEVBLOG as a valuable resource for a) Product testing/feedback, and b) A place where you can earn a lot of brownie points by interacting and responding to problems.

Rigol bashing now, are you?

[pascal_sweden]

It was you?

[Fungus]

There are no exaggerations in my bug reports.

Is 'takes a long time to save a screenshot' a bug?

Maybe it could be made faster, or maybe the CPU with the USB interface simply has no time left over when all the channels are on. You yourself say:

...especially if the scope is not Stopped before saving. The more channels and functions in use, the longer it can take to save the image.

Is it a bug if it works?

[Karel]

Isn't Rigol America following the Rigol threads on this forum?

Why don't they step in and get their act together?

It should be very straightforward to fix the remaining bugs with the help of Rigol America.

Why should they? Even with those bugs, it's still a bestseller.
They will not sell more after fixing some bugs, so why do the effort?
Once there's some real competition in this price class, they will start to fix some bugs.
Still haven't seen another scope that can beat the price/performance of the DS1054Z.

[bitseeker]

Unfortunately, that could very well be the reason fixes haven't come. Competition is a good thing. Perhaps Instek will add more pressure in this segment.

[metrologist]

I have boot version 1.4 and the latest otherwise. I'll try to duplicate the measurement freeze.

Things like slow response are hard to qualify. I guess I have the luxury of not experience the scope when it was fast  . I have not found the controls overly burdensome (in being slow), other than how you need to push the twiddle knob to select an item (it always moves when I push it!). I may tire of it over time, however...

Thanks!

[JPortici]

try adjusting the vertical position, move for example the calibrator from the center of the screen to the bottom!

[Fungus]

It should be very straightforward to fix the remaining bugs with the help of Rigol America.

Why should they? Even with those bugs, it's still a bestseller.
They will not sell more after fixing some bugs, so why do the effort?

Probably true.

Once there's some real competition in this price class, they will start to fix some bugs.

You just said sales don't depend on bugs. 

Still haven't seen another scope that can beat the price/performance of the DS1054Z.

Yep. Nothing else is close when it comes to displaying wiggly lines on a screen.

Display of wiggly lines, good triggering, easy zoom/scroll ... that's all an oscilloscope needs to do to be worth owning and nobody can really fault the DS1054Z in that regard.

Bugs? They may sound scary in forums but does it really matter that the RMS voltage display is wrong under certain conditions? Most customers probably don't care so long as the basics are correct. After all, they just got a new $1000 'scope for $400. What's not to like?

[Fungus]

Perhaps Instek will add more pressure in this segment.

They have a nice four channel 'scope for $400 but it's locked to 50MHz and no hack available. The 100 MHz version costs twice the price.

Yes, it has a better FFT but it also has no serial decoders. They're important too.

$400 extra to get rid of a couple of minor bugs? That's a tough sell.

(...and a decent firmware update from Rigol would destroy it).


PS: Dave wasn't massively impressed by it:

[wraper]

They have a nice four channel 'scope for $400 but it's locked to 50MHz and no hack available. The 100 MHz version costs twice the price.

Yes, it has a better FFT but it also has no serial decoders. They're important too.

$400 extra to get rid of a couple of minor bugs? That's a tough sell.

Hopefully you won't freak out. I'd pass as minor bug some of the advanced math being broken in it, but I wouldn't call broken RMS measurement being a minor bug. Also 50 MHz Instek have 5 ns rise time vs 7 ns in 50 MHz Rigol and 5ns in 70 MHz Rigol. As rise time is exactly the same as DS1074Z has, IMO it could be compared with that regarding to bandwidth. Analog performance of Rigol have downsides either, such as insufficient offset range in many circumstances. If you don't need serial decoding of IMO questionable quality, then Instek can offer many advantages without serious downsides. As example, advanced math is much more powerful in Instek and is not partially broken either. It can add automated measurments into expression:

Measurement Adds automatic measurements to the expression.
Not all automatic measurements are supported.
Measurement Pk-Pk, Max, Min, Amp, High,
Low, Mean, CycleMean, RMS,
CycleRMS, Area, CycleArea,
ROVShoot, FOVShoot, Freq,
Period, Rise, Fall, PosWidth,
NegWidth, Dutycycle, FRR, FRF,
FFR, FFF, LRR, LRF, LFR, LFF,
Phase

Nothing like that is possible even in more expensive DS2000A

[Fennec]

Ya, your Instek is awesome. But we got a Rigol, read the topic.

[wraper]

Ya, your Instek is awesome. But we got a Rigol, read the topic.

On the previous page was brought a point that DS1054Z has no competitors at all at this price, therefore all of the crap they do must be forgiven. Obviously it's not true, and hopefully Rigol will be brought back on the right track by punishing their wallet.

[bitseeker]

Perhaps Instek will add more pressure in this segment.

They have a nice four channel 'scope for $400 but it's locked to 50MHz and no hack available. The 100 MHz version costs twice the price.

Yep, hence the "add more pressure" phrase. However, it seems that Instek tends not to price themselves too low.

[Fungus]

Hopefully you won't freak out. I'd pass as minor bug some of the advanced math being broken in it, but I wouldn't call broken RMS measurement being a minor bug.

YMMV.

insufficient offset range in many circumstances.

"Many"?

Is that an exaggeration...? 

[wraper]

Perhaps Instek will add more pressure in this segment.

They have a nice four channel 'scope for $400 but it's locked to 50MHz and no hack available. The 100 MHz version costs twice the price.

Yep, hence the "add more pressure" phrase. However, it seems that Instek tends not to price themselves too low.

Why should they price themselves much lower than Rigol while having better capabilities. GDS-1054B is already cheaper than DS1054Z and offers significantly more out of the box at a slightly lower price. You talk as if Rigol hacked options are included in the price already from the factory . None of those things people call as advantages come out of the box.

[Fungus]

Also 50 MHz Instek have 5 ns rise time vs 7 ns in 50 MHz Rigol and 5ns in 70 MHz Rigol. As rise time is exactly the same as DS1074Z has, IMO it could be compared with that regarding to bandwidth.

So? My $400 Rigol has a 3.5ns rise time (and it's actually better than that if you measure it).

You talk as if Rigol hacked options are included in the price already from the factory

We could do a survey if you want, but... I'll bet that nobody here bought their DS1054Z thinking they were getting a 50MHz 'scope with basic triggering, 12Mb RAM no serial decoders.

[wraper]

We could do a survey if you want, but... I'll bet that nobody here bought a DS1054Z thinking they were getting a 50MHz 'scope with basic triggering, 12Mb RAM no serial decoders.

Actually it would be interesting to make a poll like:
*I actually use serial decoding and advanced triggers
*Measure signals with more than 50 MHz frequency
*Measure more than 50 MHz + use serial decoding
*I hacked my scope but would rather trade hacked frequency and decoding for absence of bugs
*have the scope but didn't hack it
Then it would be obvious if people buy it because because hackability is actually useful for them of just because it is there. Or more like self delusion and choosing this model and accepting the bugs because of the hackable features they actually don't need at all. While according to the real world use, they'd better goo for 50 MHz non hackable scope without tons of bugs which don't get fixed in the timely manner if will be fixed at all.

[rstofer]

Ya, your Instek is awesome. But we got a Rigol, read the topic.

On the previous page was brought a point that DS1054Z has no competitors at all at this price, therefore all of the crap they do must be forgiven. Obviously it's not true, and hopefully Rigol will be brought back on the right track by punishing their wallet.

Except that only two people on an obscure forum even care.  Everybody else is price driven and quite satisfied with the scope.  Sure, it would be nice if it were perfect but since it is software based, it never will be.

And, yes, you can get a scope that's twice as good for 3 times the money.  So what?

[Fungus]

And, yes, you can get a scope that's twice as good for 3 times the money.  So what?

And for only three times more money you can get one that's twice as good as that.

How do people sleep at night knowing there's a better 'scope than theirs out there? I really don't know. 

[wraper]

Ya, your Instek is awesome. But we got a Rigol, read the topic.

On the previous page was brought a point that DS1054Z has no competitors at all at this price, therefore all of the crap they do must be forgiven. Obviously it's not true, and hopefully Rigol will be brought back on the right track by punishing their wallet.

Except that only two people on an obscure forum even care.  Everybody else is price driven and quite satisfied with the scope.  Sure, it would be nice if it were perfect but since it is software based, it never will be.

And, yes, you can get a scope that's twice as good for 3 times the money.  So what?

You can get better scope at a bit lower price from a more reputable manufacturer but without possibility of hacking options, so what? Is hacked Rigol twice as good at the same price?  Are there so much value in those hacked options?

[JPortici]

the endless debate

*I hacked my scope but would rather trade hacked frequency and decoding for absence of bugs

yep.

unfortunately GWi is out of the question for us europeans as their prices are nearly double than what tequipment asks (at least, from TME and farnell. i didn't find gwi on other distributors)

[Fungus]

You can get better scope at a bit lower price from a more reputable manufacturer but without possibility of hacking options, so what? Is hacked Rigol twice as good at the same price?  Are there so much value in those hacked options?

Yes!

Bandwidth is king, you know that. That's why the 100MHz version of the Instek costs twice as much money as the 50Mhz version.

PS: Dave's conclusion in that video is that the Rigol is less noisy, has higher spec. op-amps in the front end (38:40) and that "the construction's not nearly as good as the Rigol" (39:30). Twice the bandwidth and better construction? 

[xrunner]

the endless debate

94 pages on the forum.

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