Author Topic: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope  (Read 1457456 times)

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Offline TurboTom

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4475 on: August 05, 2019, 05:40:37 pm »
Anyway, the owners buy a 50MHz scope, convince it to believe it's a 100MHz version and then want to use it up to 150+MHz? Sounds weird...  ;)

Don't you think the DS1054Z and the DS1104Z share the same hardware and that, by using a software key the artificially limited bandwidth can be upgraded?

I understood TurboTom's comment as just stating that us DS1054Z owners are a greedy bunch.  ;)
Buy 50 MHz, cheat your way into 100 MHz, then hope to get 150 MHz and beyond... 8)

Exactly!  >:D

P.S. Surely it's the same hardware, that has been sorted a long time ago.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 05:42:09 pm by TurboTom »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4476 on: August 05, 2019, 06:21:09 pm »
Indeed. That is my biggest expectation for the MSO5000 is something proportionately for nothing :)

I wish they’d hurry up and fix the bugs
The MSO5000 is frustrating. It's so close to absolutely crushing anything out there yet the slow UI and unsophisticated case design are letting it down. I have the feeling that the difference isn't even very significant in terms of NRE and manufacturing.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4477 on: August 05, 2019, 06:40:37 pm »
That was exactly the opinion I had on the thing when I played with it as well.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4478 on: August 06, 2019, 06:55:02 am »
David -
your assumption regarding the input amplifier getting close to saturation at higher input levels (or encountering problems because of its limited slew rate) sounds reasonable, but it doesn't actually appear to be the case. I just re-checked the bandwidth in the high sensitivity range of my DS1000Z at a setting of 5mV/div with an input signal level of round about 40mVpp.

If your assumption would be correct, I'ld expect a noticably higher bandwidth than with the scope set at 330mV/div, just before the relay switches in the additional analog divider, and fed with an input signal of 1.5Vpp (that's the maximum my SDG6000X will provide with the additional 50 ohms terminator at up to 350MHz). Actually, the bandwidth even appears to be a little higher at the higher input level.

So it seems something else is going on although I do not consider that an improvement but rather a mystery.

Dave's reverse engineered schematics show some things which may be related to your test results but I have my doubts that the schematics are completely accurate; they show some odd things.

At some point maybe I can get ahold of one and test it myself.
 

Offline t_i_t_o

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4479 on: August 06, 2019, 07:50:22 am »
Continuing my test https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1109785/#msg1109785 with the same source signal i.e. the 100MHz SDRAM clock of the STM32F769 discovery board, now testing with a 500MHz 8pF Tek probe, it turns out my lovely Rigol has over than 300MHz bandwith (1.3 ns rise time as seen) :)

Just to put some oil in the fire, here is the same signal, same Tek probe, but seen with 1.5GHz 8GS/s HP infinium. So compared to the rigol, we see a peak at the beginning of each pulse, where this peak is observed i.e. after the front. On rigol is at the end of the pulse - before the front. Any explanation? Bad interpolation?
 

Offline marber

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4480 on: August 06, 2019, 11:22:55 am »
About 2.5 years ago I had to shelve my electronics hobby for a while. Lack of time (new baby, new house / home improvement work) as well as lack of space until that was done (baby room...). So I put everything in storage for the time being, including my DS1074Z-S.

This week I finally got some things setup again in my new house, in a new room, and with sometimes a bit of time available. It was a bit funny to return to reading this forum and still see the exact same discussions going on between mostly the same actors... ;)

The moment I took out my DS1074Z-S out of the box to put it on my desk and carefully flipped out one of its feet, it immediately snapped. Same with the other one. The tension of the springs was apparently enough to do that. So now... I have an oscilloscope on my desk that I can no longer tilt upwards in a decent way.

I suspect the plastics may have weakened a bit over time, perhaps from the sun, as also the plastic top of the oscilloscope has yellowed slightly from bromine. It used to be near a window in my old, small apartment. The feet have always been out of reach of the sun underneath, though. :)

Anyway... I see I may not be the only one with that problem, as a bit of googling I noticed a few Rigol DS1000Z feet designs on Thingiverse etc.

Before I go that route however, has anyone ever had any luck getting such replacement parts out of Rigol? :)
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4481 on: August 06, 2019, 11:00:30 pm »
Just to put some oil in the fire, here is the same signal, same Tek probe, but seen with 1.5GHz 8GS/s HP infinium. So compared to the rigol, we see a peak at the beginning of each pulse, where this peak is observed i.e. after the front. On rigol is at the end of the pulse - before the front. Any explanation? Bad interpolation?

The problem cannot be interpolation when there is nothing to interpolate.  1 GS/s on the Rigol is a point every nanosecond so unless the Rigol is mangling the original sample points, there should be no problem.
 

Offline Miti

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4482 on: August 09, 2019, 01:21:53 am »
Today I turned on my Rigol DS1054Z after few weeks and the language was set to Chinese, HW counter was disabled, everything was messed up. I did a reset to default, enabled counter and everything seems to work ok. Should I be concerned?

And the answer is...yes, I should be. After few more power cycles it did it again. Back it goes the piece of crap.  |O
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 01:31:54 am by Miti »
That big spark at power up was by design!
 

Offline Sredni

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4483 on: August 19, 2019, 12:24:21 am »
Continuing my test https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1109785/#msg1109785 with the same source signal i.e. the 100MHz SDRAM clock of the STM32F769 discovery board, now testing with a 500MHz 8pF Tek probe, it turns out my lovely Rigol has over than 300MHz bandwith (1.3 ns rise time as seen) :)

Just to put some oil in the fire, here is the same signal, same Tek probe, but seen with 1.5GHz 8GS/s HP infinium. So compared to the rigol, we see a peak at the beginning of each pulse, where this peak is observed i.e. after the front. On rigol is at the end of the pulse - before the front. Any explanation? Bad interpolation?

My guess is that even if the Rigol has a -3dB point at 130 MHz, a square wave has harmonics at much higher frequencies. So, you will see higher frequency components much more attenuated - but also with different phase shifts. I would not trust a 100 MHz scope to see anything squarish over 15-20 MHz.

Anyone has measured the phase shift for the Rigol DS1054Z?
All instruments lie. Usually on the bench.
 

Offline Plasmateur

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4484 on: August 19, 2019, 01:49:38 am »
Is using the window trigger the only way to get get a waveform across all the sample points?  For some reason, I cannot move the trigger position to the left in Edge trigger mode.

Perhaps there was an update which allows the trigger position to be moved to the far left while in edge trigger mode? Weird.



 
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4485 on: August 19, 2019, 04:45:22 am »
Is using the window trigger the only way to get get a waveform across all the sample points?  For some reason, I cannot move the trigger position to the left in Edge trigger mode.

Perhaps there was an update which allows the trigger position to be moved to the far left while in edge trigger mode? Weird.

Hmm -- I may be misunderstanding the question? When you say "move the trigger to the left", you mean the left edge of the screen?

To my knowledge, this has always been possible with the DS1054Z, in any trigger mode, and it certainly is possible now. In fact, you can move the trigger point well beyond the left edge of the screen. The "delay" display in the upper right of the screen will then tell you the time difference between the trigger point and the time window visible on the screen.

For you, what happens when you rotate the "horizontal position" knob to the left?
 

Offline Miti

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4486 on: August 19, 2019, 10:43:37 am »
One of the probes that came with the scope is open right at the pin of the BNC connector. They are not even two years opd and saw very little and gentle use. And the warranty is one year for the probes. We have a bunch of Tek probes at work that are used and abused for 10+ years. Do you have similar experience?
That big spark at power up was by design!
 

Offline delfinom

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4487 on: August 19, 2019, 11:11:59 am »
Indeed. That is my biggest expectation for the MSO5000 is something proportionately for nothing :)

I wish they’d hurry up and fix the bugs
The MSO5000 is frustrating. It's so close to absolutely crushing anything out there yet the slow UI and unsophisticated case design are letting it down. I have the feeling that the difference isn't even very significant in terms of NRE and manufacturing.

I have a MSO5000.
I absolutely do not understand how it's UI is could be considered slow.

The Tektronix MSO4034B I have at work running the latest firmware, is far slower and crashes often when I do simple scope usage tasks like just changing the channel voltage scaling.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 12:25:32 pm by delfinom »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4488 on: August 19, 2019, 12:34:44 pm »
I have a MSO5000.
I absolutely do not understand how it's UI is could be considered slow.

The Tektronix MSO4034B I have at work running the latest firmware, is far slower and crashes often when I do simple scope usage tasks like just changing the channel voltage scaling.
Moving signals across the screen is very sluggish. That's not really acceptable in a device in this bracket.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4489 on: August 19, 2019, 12:45:41 pm »
Moving signals across the screen is very sluggish. That's not really acceptable in a device in this bracket.

Feel free not to buy one.

You'll miss out on getting a four channel, 350MHz, 8GSamp/sec., 400Mb memory, 'scope for under $1000 though.

Your choice.  :popcorn:
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4490 on: August 19, 2019, 12:56:41 pm »
Feel free not to buy one.

You'll miss out on getting a four channel, 350MHz, 8GSamp/sec., 400Mb memory, 'scope for under $1000 though.

Your choice.  :popcorn:
Please read my comment delfinom quoted.
 

Offline Plasmateur

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4491 on: August 20, 2019, 02:22:20 am »
Is using the window trigger the only way to get get a waveform across all the sample points?  For some reason, I cannot move the trigger position to the left in Edge trigger mode.

Perhaps there was an update which allows the trigger position to be moved to the far left while in edge trigger mode? Weird.

Hmm -- I may be misunderstanding the question? When you say "move the trigger to the left", you mean the left edge of the screen?

To my knowledge, this has always been possible with the DS1054Z, in any trigger mode, and it certainly is possible now. In fact, you can move the trigger point well beyond the left edge of the screen. The "delay" display in the upper right of the screen will then tell you the time difference between the trigger point and the time window visible on the screen.

For you, what happens when you rotate the "horizontal position" knob to the left?

Let's say the scope is set to average mode

Trigger type is edge with rising slope triggering off ch.4

I use a signal generator to send a repeated pulsed sinewave to ch.2 and a trigger signal to ch.4. If I turn the knob counterclockwise, the trigger position appear to move left (shown in attached picture), however the trigger position is still at time 0 seconds. So if I save and plot the data, the signal will begin around halfway into the signal array. 

However if I use a window trigger (shown in attached picture) and move the time to to (Samples)/(Samplerate)/2,
or as shown in the picture (1200[points]/5e8[points/sec])/2 = 1.2e-6 seconds

then when I save and plot the data, the sinewave starts at the beginning of the array.





 

Offline ebastler

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4492 on: August 20, 2019, 05:36:02 am »
If I turn the knob counterclockwise, the trigger position appear to move left (shown in attached picture), however the trigger position is still at time 0 seconds. So if I save and plot the data, the signal will begin around halfway into the signal array. 

However if I use a window trigger (shown in attached picture) and move the time to to (Samples)/(Samplerate)/2,
or as shown in the picture (1200[points]/5e8[points/sec])/2 = 1.2e-6 seconds.
then when I save and plot the data, the sinewave starts at the beginning of the array.

Thanks for the additional explanation. Yes, you are right there: In "Edge" mode, the trigger event occurs as soon as the edge is detected. What you change via the delay setting (horizontal position knob) is not the position of the trigger event relative to your signal -- the timing between your trigger pulse on channel 4 and your signal burst is given by your signal generator. Rather, the delay setting determines the position of the captured and displayed data, relative to the trigger event.

With the more complex triggers (pulse width, delay, window etc.), the actual trigger event only occurs after whatever timing relation on the inputs you have defined as the trigger condition comes true. That's what you observe in your "window trigger" example.
 
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Offline gardner

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4493 on: August 21, 2019, 10:59:35 pm »
I searched for mentions of cursor with no joy.  Flog me with a wet noodle if this is a well known FAQ.

I do not see a way to use manual X cursors without having the Y ones also visible (also Y vs X).  I wind up having to tuck them down at the bottom or side.  Is there a way to selectively use X or Y cursors but not both that I am somehow missing?  Thanks.
--- Gardner
 

Online BravoV

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4494 on: September 10, 2019, 09:12:54 am »
As this thread is like the DS1054Z owners lair.  :-DD

Does any owner here, especially for those with expired warranty, and it was broken while in normal usage, and then fixed by yourself.

Just curious what are the commons problems once this scope "aged enough".

Common problem like bad cap is still unheard of, at least for me.

Anyone ?

Please don't discuss any of the existing known bugs, design flaws and etc, just want to hear, or hopefully we can come out with a list of common problems for this scope once they're aged.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 09:23:31 am by BravoV »
 

Offline McBryce

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4495 on: September 10, 2019, 11:18:44 am »
The DS1054Z was only released at the end of 2014. I would be extremely concerned if they had used capacitors that were already starting to fail.

McBryce.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4496 on: September 10, 2019, 11:34:46 am »
I don't know, I don't use it any more.
int main (void) { while (1) fork(); }
 

Online bitseeker

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4497 on: September 10, 2019, 06:41:02 pm »
I haven't heard about age-related issues, yet. Most units probably don't have very high hours like scopes in a lab that may be on all day long.
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4498 on: September 10, 2019, 10:58:00 pm »
Mine was a floor display model purchased about three years ago.  It probably got moderate use in the floor model phase of its life and it gets relatively light use since.  Weeks or months with no activity interspersed with several days or weeks of intense use.  It shows no signs of age degradation.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #4499 on: September 11, 2019, 12:06:15 am »
The problem cannot be interpolation when there is nothing to interpolate.  1 GS/s on the Rigol is a point every nanosecond so unless the Rigol is mangling the original sample points, there should be no problem.

There's often mentions around here that the rigol's displayed 'dots' are interpolated, I dunno meself.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-vs-siglent-sds1202x-e/msg2483973/#msg2483973
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 


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