SDS800X HD - Issue disscusions - is it me, or the scope?

[electronics hobbyist]

Another thing in the manual that does not add up:
Again... 

The X2 is whereever you set it up. So it can also be on the left side. The same problem is with the Y1/2.

This description is easily misunderstood.It should be written in the following form:

1. The X1 vertical dotted line.
or 2.  The X1 vertical dotted line(On the Left by factory default).

[2N3055]

What you saying is not improvement or bug.
Scope shows sampled, acquired points, not current screen points.
What is purpose of useless metric of current screen?

I don't know about "useless". When showing interpolated traces (as I normally do), I appreciate the hint how many datapoints are actually used to generate the curve I see. Yes, I know I can calculate them by multiplying sample rate * sweep time, but an obvious number is helpful.

But I can also see the value in displaying the total number of acquired points, even if I have zoomed in and see just a fraction of them. Gives me a better idea about what to expect from measurements, for example.

In any case, either the firmware or the manual need to be changed. At the moment they are inconsistent, as the manual claims that the data points indicate the number of points shown on-screen. And that inconsistency is what eTobey had pointed out.

Sorry if it came out terse and harsh.

Like you say "I appreciate the hint", and "I like to know" is not necessary information, by it's very virtue of how we address it.
I personally like as much info as I can, but it is tiny 150x85mm screen.

When sitting on a desk next to 6000A this scope looks like "The little engine that could".

It literally is that. A small entry level scope that does what no other scope for that price could in history of scopes.
Of course there will be compromises.

OTOH, any bugs and document erratum should be fixed.
With note that user manual is reference document. It is not tutorial or introduction to scopes.

[electronics hobbyist]

You are dead wrong!

Rude.

This is not meant to be rude: but i really get frustrated

It was rude, and your frustration is the result of your lack of understanding (in combination with some errors in the manual 😉). It doesn't matter that he made a typo. You don't need to be a dick about it. Your behavior here is quite abrasive. That's not acceptable, especially when you're seeking help and understanding from people that owe you nothing. Errors in the manual or not, makes no difference. Don't treat people that way.

You are dead wrong!

Rude.

This is not meant to be rude: but i really get frustrated

It was rude, and your frustration is the result of your lack of understanding (in combination with some errors in the manual 😉). It doesn't matter that he made a typo. You don't need to be a dick about it. Your behavior here is quite abrasive. That's not acceptable, especially when you're seeking help and understanding from people that owe you nothing. Errors in the manual or not, makes no difference. Don't treat people that way.

The first time I read this, I thought war was about to break out . Yes, a different way of communication can solve these problems.

I know the point of departure of eTobey is good, and it would be much better if there were fewer emotional expressions.
For example, exclamation marks("!") should be avoided. People should not deny others first, and spend more time understanding the logic behind other people's discussions.

Language is a barrier. I translated it using Google and then modified the English. Before sending it, I thought about how others felt when they saw these words and whether they could understand.

[2N3055]

Language is a barrier. I translated it using Google and then modified the English. Before sending it, I thought about how others felt when they saw these words and whether they could understand.

 

[eTobey]

People should not deny others first, and spend more time understanding the logic behind other people's discussions.

I tried to communicate this in several posts too...

[eTobey]

With note that user manual is reference document. It is not tutorial or introduction to scopes.

Wanted feature No. 234:
A true user manual where i can RTFM all day long, without beeing more confused, than i would be, by just figuring it out all alone on the scope.

That trigger "pattern" and "delay" really takes time the get a hold of. It should not be like that.

[eTobey]

Here is my issue:
- Change the manual (red) so it is easier to understand.

- My actual issue (pink):
I would expect that when a condition (an edge happens, a delay has run out, ...) occures, the trigger triggers. But with pattern its inconsistent (again). Whats the point of triggering when a set up condition is not met anymore? Just think of it with a red light at a traffic light: i want to trigger the brake when the red light or yellow light is on. With the patter trigger logic, i would be braking when it is green. 

[electronics hobbyist]

Just out of curiosity and because I might be able to learn something: What do people use the "total data points in the acquisition" information for?

I have thought about removing the "total data points in the acquisition" and found that it doesn't seem to affect anything, I am more concerned about whether the sampling rate meets the requirements. If anyone else has an idea, could you explain it.

[2N3055]

Here is my issue:
- Change the manual (red) so it is easier to understand.

- My actual issue (pink):
I would expect that when a condition (an edge happens, a delay has run out, ...) occures, the trigger triggers. But with pattern its inconsistent (again). Whats the point of triggering when a set up condition is not met anymore? Just think of it with a red light at a traffic light: i want to trigger the brake when the red light or yellow light is on. With the patter trigger logic, i would be braking when it is green. 

Terminology true and false belong to Boolean algebra, a mathematical theory. And software engineering, that is based on it.

We are dealing with signals here, so HIGH/LOW.

Inside FPGA VHDL language it is True/False, on physical pin it is electrical quantity HIGH/LOW digital signal.
As far as electrical engineer is concerned any properly measured quantity is true....

We cannot expect a device/instrument to do abstraction/de abstraction of concepts or conceptual thinking for us.

[ebastler]

- My actual issue (pink):
I would expect that when a condition (an edge happens, a delay has run out, ...) occures, the trigger triggers. But with pattern its inconsistent (again). Whats the point of triggering when a set up condition is not met anymore? Just think of it with a red light at a traffic light: i want to trigger the brake when the red light or yellow light is on. With the patter trigger logic, i would be braking when it is green. 

Did you read my reply #72? I think the trigger can only work the way it does, and have explained my understanding why that is the case. I also described how, in my understanding, it's easy to get the scope to trigger at the time point you want to see.

[eTobey]

Terminology true and false belong to Boolean algebra, a mathematical theory. And software engineering, that is based on it.

We are dealing with signals here, so HIGH/LOW.

You missed the point: this is not about the signal itself, but the state of the signal one would setup with "high/low".
Showing the signal with a negation is not as easy to understand.

Inside FPGA VHDL language it is True/False, on physical pin it is electrical quantity HIGH/LOW digital signal.
As far as electrical engineer is concerned any properly measured quantity is true....

We cannot expect a device/instrument to do abstraction/de abstraction of concepts or conceptual thinking for us.

This is some information that i consider not helpful with my issue, and of course i already know.

[electronics hobbyist]

Here is my issue:
- Change the manual (red) so it is easier to understand.

- My actual issue (pink):
I would expect that when a condition (an edge happens, a delay has run out, ...) occures, the trigger triggers. But with pattern its inconsistent (again). Whats the point of triggering when a set up condition is not met anymore? Just think of it with a red light at a traffic light: i want to trigger the brake when the red light or yellow light is on. With the patter trigger logic, i would be braking when it is green. 

The image in the manual is an example. When Channel1 is set to High and Channel2 is set to Low, the “Trigger Position“ indications are triggered under different Logic, such as the Logic AND, trigger Position is in the time triggering from True to False. have you tested any inconsistencies with this image?

[eTobey]

The image in the manual is an example. When Channel1 is set to High and Channel2 is set to Low, the “Trigger Position“ indications are triggered under different Logic, such as the Logic AND, trigger Position is in the time triggering from True to False.

Yes, i think i already figured it out how it is meant to be. I just say, that this is a bad example.

Have you understand what i was trying to say with the traffic light?

[ebastler]

Have you understand what i was trying to say with the traffic light?

Have you read my post #72 in the meantime, where I think I explained why the Pattern trigger strikes at the end of the pattern's existence? It is a bit annoying at times that you hardly ever comment on attempts to answer a question, let alone confirm an answer. 

[eTobey]

Have you understand what i was trying to say with the traffic light?

Have you read my post #72 in the meantime, where I think I explained why the Pattern trigger strikes at the end of the pattern's existence? It is a bit annoying at times that you hardly ever comment on attempts to answer a question, let alone confirm an answer. 

I think i subconsciously ignored your answer, because you said: "I have not used this trigger type yet, but strongly expect that it behaves as described in the manual."
It seems, i have developed a behaviour, that i would ignore information that does not sound plausible or reliable  (to me) in the first few sentences. I have to change in this regard. My apologies. (I think i have developed this because of having to filter out google search results, or maybe i just need some time off)

Back to topic:
The manual does not explain anything about the time. All someone can do is guessing, and fiddling around with it.
If someone take a delay into consideration, then it absolutely makes sense, but this is a crucial information that is not there in the manual.

[eTobey]

Would you agree, that a better description would be like "Triggers after a pattern existed for the specified amount of time?

I just went to read about the pattern trigger, because the manual made me to! I just wanted to know the delay trigger. 

[rf-loop]

Would you agree, that a better description would be like "Triggers after a pattern existed for the specified amount of time?

I just went to read about the pattern trigger, because the manual made me to! I just wanted to know the delay trigger. 

Hmm...

I agree with you that the manual could be better made in this regard as well.
Here too (pattern trig), you can see the effect that it has been obvious to the Usr Manual author how it works, and of course the point in question is somewhat clear to him, as well as to me and all who have enough knowledge  and experience with these Siglent oscilloscope-multitools.
Because the background information that is missing from the manual is ready in the head.

In fact, it is difficult to notice the lack of it when the background information is already there when  read and look manual (or write it)..
But when a new user of the device is missing it, it can complicate matters quite a lot. Here it also helps if the user has used another model from the same manufacturer, because the basic implementation is almost the same.

In fact, it would be great if, for example, Pattern trig had its operation diagram with logic symbols on the oscilloscope's display screen (Pattern trig setup using diagram), which was then connected to the setting levers and parameters, so that the timer can be clearly seen if the user can read very simple logic diagrams. It could be very clear to use. No need to open the manual. However, the screen of that SDS800XHD is a bit small.

The problem is that someone should implement it, and the implementation should also be financially viable. There are other things to do with the resources that are available, which almost always get overlooked.

Read those old HP journals and one might start to get an idea of what is missing todays and which time will never come back. There will be nothing close to the perfect The Urser Reference Manual. Not even a really good regular User Manual. Because no one is buying it. The makers make what is bought or what is believed to be bought. If that belief is then wrong, it is terminated. Reality is like that, whether it's nice or not.

[Performa01]

Just out of curiosity and because I might be able to learn something: What do people use the "total data points in the acquisition" information for?

I have thought about removing the "total data points in the acquisition" and found that it doesn't seem to affect anything, I am more concerned about whether the sampling rate meets the requirements. If anyone else has an idea, could you explain it.

This information is called "Record Length". One would think it's quite obviously one vital parameter of any acquisition.

It allows me to know at a glance whether the current record can be used for signal analysis without any further (hidden) decimation (which would cause decoders to fail and measurements to give grossly wrong results; also whether it's still compatible (hence can be transferred) to a Memory trace (for scopes that support them).

When I plan to save the acquisition data, the record length will allow me to easily estimate the file size of a binary wavform file and whether I'll be able to send it per email or attach it in the forum.

For the scopes which support fixed memory, you cannot simply calculate the record length from time base and sample rate. Even though I strongly recommend to stay in Auto memory mode, exactly those persons who want to "improve" Siglent scopes all the time, would certainly ignore my advice and use fixed memory all the more (with waveform update rate dropping like a rock, intensity grading lost and segmented memory largely sacrificed for something pretty useless, wich LeCroy and Keysight Megazoom didn't have for a long time and Pico Tech still does not provide, just like the lower end Siglents - but I digress).

[ebastler]

Thanks, rf-loop.

I think an improved manual would be the most cost-effectivce way to sort this out. The fact that the Pattern trigger strikes when the defined pattern ends is not intuitive and should be spelled out. Likewise, operation of the Delay trigger needs significant clarification. Who can guess that the "edge polarity" for Source A essentially defines whether an AND or NAND condition of the defined source states must be met?

Frankly, if Siglent wants to be an "A brand", the manual is an area where there is work to do. Currently, the quality varies a lot between chapters -- there are some which I consider well-written, e.g. the FFT section, others which are ok, and then some which are just too terse and incomplete to make sense to someone who is new to this platform. The sections on Pattern and Delay triggers are examples of the latter category.

[eTobey]

It allows me to know at a glance whether the current record can be used for signal analysis without any further (hidden) decimation (which would cause decoders to fail and measurements to give grossly wrong results...

I would think, that this would depend on the Samples per second and not the total number of points acquired?