Author Topic: New Rigol DS7000  (Read 55651 times)

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Offline maxpayne

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2018, 04:05:15 am »
Got a mail this morning from Rigol showing comparison with Keysight 3000T and Tektronix MDO3000...

https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-006b/t/page/fm/0?sid=TV2:XzlBJUIBo&sid=TV2:wMsyMtJJp
 

Offline toli

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2018, 06:47:24 am »
The problem is that they are comparing Rigol pricing vs. list prices of competitors. I doubt Rigol actually thinks companies are paying the list price when buying a scope from one of the A brands. If they are counting on the list price difference to sell them, they are in for a very bad surprise.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #77 on: July 03, 2018, 10:31:44 am »
Got a mail this morning from Rigol showing comparison with Keysight 3000T and Tektronix MDO3000...

https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-006b/t/page/fm/0?sid=TV2:XzlBJUIBo&sid=TV2:wMsyMtJJp
Why is R&S' RTM3000 missing from this comparison? Why only compare with older oscilloscopes which have been on the market for several years?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 10:36:06 am by nctnico »
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Offline Karel

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #78 on: July 03, 2018, 10:44:19 am »
Choosing the right brand/model is like deciding what to vote during the elections.
Don't look at politicians' programs and campaigns. Instead, look at how they performed in the past.

In general, people tend to think that the next time they will perform better...
 

Offline 1anX

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #79 on: July 03, 2018, 09:57:03 pm »
Rigol have a niche in the value area for test instruments when compared to similar others, they offer performance for price, (bang for buck).

If they step up in the feature set and start competing with the A brands the only way they can get a foothold is by having lower, (much lower) purchase price. If these DSOs offer entry point hacking to higher BW, etc, they will be a runaway success, but for $11,000 other established options present themselves.

The Chinese make the Great Wall vehicle range and can be viewed as an analogue for Rigol, great value vehicles, (very low prices) but never considered when up against a similarly priced A brand vehicle.

IMO if Rigol want to compete with the established big boys in test measurement then their prices and features must represent value for money. Paying to enable every option/feature on the DS-7000s is pushing the proverbial up hill. The features/options should come enabled and only pay for enabling BW upgrades. Making the Protocol Analysis options for the scopes free would be a step in the right direction. This would make them a more attractive alternative to be considered.

I would buy one if they represented  real value, (low price, many features) otherwise other A brands would get my money!

« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 10:06:03 pm by 1anX »
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #80 on: July 03, 2018, 10:52:32 pm »
Well, DS7000 looks quite good on paper. But the front panel is confusing. It has 100Mpoints per channel. It might be slow at this memory setting.
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Offline H.O

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #81 on: July 04, 2018, 05:07:51 am »
It has anywhere between 25 and 500Mpts per channel depending on what options you have and how many channels you have enabled.

At €2600 (incl VAT) for the base model it looks like a nice contender if/when it's found to be hackable.

IMHO the prices for the options are ridiculous, i mean €900 each for the decoder option (yes there's a bundle at €1900) and €1350 to enable the full memory - on a scope costing €2600...come on.
 
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Offline maginnovision

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #82 on: July 04, 2018, 07:24:12 am »
IMHO the prices for the options are ridiculous, i mean €900 each for the decoder option (yes there's a bundle at €1900) and €1350 to enable the full memory - on a scope costing €2600...come on.

Having you looked at the cost of options for what they compared their scope to? This isn't a replacement 1054Z.
 

Online TurboTom

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #83 on: July 04, 2018, 07:58:33 am »
Having you looked at the cost of options for what they compared their scope to? This isn't a replacement 1054Z.

That would actually be a really nice addition to the whole measurement market portfolio: Something like a "DS1504X" or how it would be designated: An instrument the compact size and low weight of the DS1054Z but equipped with the new ASIC, a high resolution touch screen and  the grunt of the 7000 model. Don't mind shared controls on a compact scope. I guess if Rigol would offer that (at a resonable price, of course), they would sell quite a few...

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Offline H.O

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #84 on: July 04, 2018, 08:18:18 am »
Having you looked at the cost of options for what they compared their scope to? This isn't a replacement 1054Z.
Sort of and they appear to be equally ridiculous.
 

Offline 1anX

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #85 on: July 04, 2018, 08:25:35 am »
IMHO the prices for the options are ridiculous, i mean €900 each for the decoder option (yes there's a bundle at €1900) and €1350 to enable the full memory - on a scope costing €2600...come on.

Having you looked at the cost of options for what they compared their scope to? This isn't a replacement 1054Z.

I understand what you are saying that its not a 1054Z replacement and compared to A brands its price is competitive.The thing is that its new and untested, and has not been independently assessed by any qualified 3rd party yet. New ASIC feature set and specs remain simply advertising blurb until tested live in the lab.

Rigol are good cheap test instruments that generally if buggy when released get fixed, but the DS-7000 as I said before does not tempt me. Cheap to get into then expensive to option up. Rigol need to add value for the prospective customer to consider this scope over others.

To make this value brand scope sell then Rigol will need to sharpen their pencil and add real value for the user. IMO Rigol need to offer all protocol decoder options free on all the DS-7000 models. The cheapest 100MHz BW model as well as having the decoder options free, should also start at 200MHz and drop the 100MHz model option altogether.

Rigol need to understand that their market share comes from the value for money sector of test equipment. When spending $11000 on a value brand like Rigol DS-7000 the other 'A' brand DSOs will win me and my money.

I would love to buy a feature rich DSO like the DS-7000 but Rigol need to be more realistic in their pricing. Option enabling on the scope is value adding for Rigol only, (increased profit) and not the customer who can clearly see hardware is already in place.

It would take a massive pricing rethink by Rigol to tempt me to buy their new scope. I would love to upgrade to the new Rigol instrument, problem is its priced like a Porsche and in reality its brand is the analogue of a Great Wall pickup.

When are we going to see independent reviews on this new Rigol scope?


« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 08:29:07 am by 1anX »
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #86 on: July 04, 2018, 03:04:57 pm »
When is Dave Jones going to review the MSO version of the new Rigol 7000 series?

In this review I would like to see an extensive real world protocol decoder test and Logic Analyzer test.

The test should test the speed when using full memory depth, and should verify if the protocol decoding is really done in hardware.

One should also make a long memory capture, and search in the long memory capture to verify how easy it is to search within a long trace.

Maybe use an actual PCB board of a commercial product, where I2C, SPI, CAN signals are present, and perform a real world protocol decoder test and Logic Analyzer test.
Perform a real world troubleshooting session, to put the product to a real world test!

This video would have a dual function: verify how good the MSO version of the new Rigol 7000 series is, and at the same time educate about troubleshooting techniques using powerful protocol decoder and LA tools.

Of course the test should also verify how good the new analog front-end is (bandwidth, trigger implementation, jitter, noise level).

Rumours in the past indicated that Rigol engineers have no clue on how to properly implement the trigger circuitry, and that there actually is a fundamental flaw in the design.
Maybe the trigger implementation can be verified in the new Rigol 7000 series.

Another nice test would be to check if Rigol has a similar feature as Siglent to generate Bode diagrams on the oscilloscope, where the oscilloscope controls an external signal generator.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 03:23:41 pm by pascal_sweden »
 

Online jjoonathan

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #87 on: July 04, 2018, 05:02:57 pm »
Seconded. Rigol's 4000 series had a bug where serial decoding didn't work in segmented memory mode until years after release ::) , it would be good to know if there were any similar bugs in the 7000.

The 4000s also have annoying trigger UX, but AFAIK that's a result of the firmware and software, not the hardware. The hardware trigger works OK -- no sub-sample spacing but otherwise fine, and no clock jitter on trig out, so it's a real trigger rather than a GPIO abomination. The jankiness comes from the fact that its time offset isn't calibrated out in the FPGA so the software attempts a secondary digital trigger to nudge the trigger crossing a few ns to the specified trigger location. This works fine when the trigger is on-screen and not at all when it isn't. Also, for some reason, the software trigger isn't applied while scrolling, so on low ns/div the signal appears to hop between the uncalibrated hardware trigger and exact software trigger, which is frustrating. You can work around this problem by manually entering a timebase offset to calibrate out the trigger delay, but ugh.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 01:31:33 pm by jjoonathan »
 

Offline 1anX

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #88 on: July 05, 2018, 10:36:45 pm »
Dave! if your reading this?
Have Rigol made this new scope series available for test and tear down anytime soon with you?
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #89 on: July 17, 2018, 08:45:29 am »
Yes, we are all waiting for this detailed review as per above description! :)
 

Offline hmlittle59

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #90 on: July 17, 2018, 03:24:42 pm »
Hello All,

My 2 cents and recent observation.
 
I have a early Rigol DS2102, use only as needed for the pass 5+ years.  Software rarely updated and when I did Rigol Rep. was shocked at the version I had. Works great.  Still has over 1000 min. of trial code active. :-DD
Anyway...
Was looking to upgrade to the Rigol MSO4014 from TEquip. and the price was $ 3500.00 plus 2 Free Bundles of upgrades (Bandwidth and Trigger Code).
Well that price break and the Bandwidth are gone after the 7000 came out. :=\  Snooze you loose.  Now $3999.

Now I will also wait on Dave's REVIEW.

I may just go back and just get the upgrades for my DS2102 only once they run out and save a dollar or 2. :-// :-// :-//

Like I said...My 2cents and observation.

Howard


 

Offline annerajb

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #91 on: July 18, 2018, 02:59:23 am »
Concur. Just found the DS7000 would like a few reviews from knowledgeable third parties.
 

Offline 1anX

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #92 on: July 19, 2018, 10:49:55 pm »
I keep Googling looking for DS7000 reviews from 3rd parties but find only Rigol and distributors posting the videos and specs.

You would think Rigol would have had this out to Dave and others to post reviews/teardowns to maximise their marketing for a new premium product they bill as being the match and better value than the current 'A' brand offerings.

Makes me wonder why we are not yet seeing reviews from the likes of EEVBlog etc?
 

Offline carl0s

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #93 on: July 20, 2018, 09:15:19 am »
Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but one slightly disappointing thing, maybe, is that the 10 GSa/s  is, erm, muxed over all 4 channels. Whereas on other 4ch scopes, I think, it's just muxed across AB and CD.

So while it's 10GSa/s when using one channel, you can't do the trick of using CH1 and CH3 to still get the full sample rate.

e.g. on a ds1054z with 1GSa/s, you could use CH1 and CH3 and it won't split the sampling rate in half.

Sampling 4 channels on a DS1054z would give 500MSa/s per channel, and the DS7000 would give 2.5GSa/s.

I suppose it's still a minimum of 5x greater.
Using 1 channel it's 10x greater, any more than 1 channel, it's never more than 5x greater.
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Online JPortici

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #94 on: July 20, 2018, 09:21:36 am »
e.g. on a ds1054z with 1GSa/s, you could use CH1 and CH3 and it won't split the sampling rate in half.

Sampling 4 channels on a DS1054z would give 500MSa/s per channel, and the DS7000 would give 2.5GSa/s.

not at all. 1054z has a single ADC.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #95 on: July 20, 2018, 10:12:20 am »
Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but one slightly disappointing thing, maybe, is that the 10 GSa/s  is, erm, muxed over all 4 channels. Whereas on other 4ch scopes, I think, it's just muxed across AB and CD.

So while it's 10GSa/s when using one channel, you can't do the trick of using CH1 and CH3 to still get the full sample rate.

e.g. on a ds1054z with 1GSa/s, you could use CH1 and CH3 and it won't split the sampling rate in half.

Sampling 4 channels on a DS1054z would give 500MSa/s per channel, and the DS7000 would give 2.5GSa/s.

I suppose it's still a minimum of 5x greater.
Using 1 channel it's 10x greater, any more than 1 channel, it's never more than 5x greater.

They all do that. At least you can have on ch with 10GS. All other have with 2x5GS shared over 4 channel(2.5 GS/ch), or 4x2.5 GS, or 1x5GS over 4ch (1.25 GS/ch)....
You have to go to a class higher scopes to have higher sample rates...
5x than analog bandwidth of input channel is absolutely perfect.
 

Offline carl0s

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #96 on: July 20, 2018, 03:29:46 pm »
Ah fair enough. Maybe it's the sample memory then? I can't remember what it was, but something is split per bank of A/B and C/D.
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Offline carl0s

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #97 on: July 20, 2018, 04:06:01 pm »
Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but one slightly disappointing thing, maybe, is that the 10 GSa/s  is, erm, muxed over all 4 channels. Whereas on other 4ch scopes, I think, it's just muxed across AB and CD.

So while it's 10GSa/s when using one channel, you can't do the trick of using CH1 and CH3 to still get the full sample rate.

e.g. on a ds1054z with 1GSa/s, you could use CH1 and CH3 and it won't split the sampling rate in half.

Sampling 4 channels on a DS1054z would give 500MSa/s per channel, and the DS7000 would give 2.5GSa/s.

I suppose it's still a minimum of 5x greater.
Using 1 channel it's 10x greater, any more than 1 channel, it's never more than 5x greater.

They all do that. At least you can have on ch with 10GS. All other have with 2x5GS shared over 4 channel(2.5 GS/ch), or 4x2.5 GS, or 1x5GS over 4ch (1.25 GS/ch)....
You have to go to a class higher scopes to have higher sample rates...
5x than analog bandwidth of input channel is absolutely perfect.

Hmm I guess I've got confused somewhere along the way, but the Siglent 4ch scopes have 2x ADC and 2x storage over the 2ch scopes. I just watched Dave's teardown of the DS1054z again and I see all 4 channels go into the same ADC.
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Online 2N3055

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #98 on: July 20, 2018, 07:34:32 pm »
They have dual 1Gs/sec that is 500MS/sec per ch... I think 10GS/sec divided by 4 is still 2,5GS/sec per channel..
And it has 100/250/500 Msamples memory divided by 4. Keysight DSOX3000T has 4Msamples...
 

Online tautech

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #99 on: July 20, 2018, 08:55:56 pm »
Hmm I guess I've got confused somewhere along the way, but the Siglent 4ch scopes have 2x ADC and 2x storage over the 2ch scopes. I just watched Dave's teardown of the DS1054z again and I see all 4 channels go into the same ADC.
Yes, that's the point of difference and the reason for the higher price......2 ADC's.
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