Author Topic: New Rigol DS7000  (Read 55589 times)

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Offline fact

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #225 on: February 18, 2020, 07:14:42 am »
The MSO5000 and MSO7000 series are very similar in appearance and base firmware. The differences can be found in the larger bandwidth and better connector for the LA-probe in the MSO7000. The MSO7000 package also includes the LA-probes whereas this is an option for the MSO5000.
Compared to R&S scopes you will find the noise floor of the Rigol offering to be higher and some rough edges in the firmware for the Rigol scopes, but even the R&S scopes still contain bugs.
Both Rigol scopes are hackable.
 
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Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #226 on: February 19, 2020, 11:30:34 am »
Hello fact and thank you  :)

I didn't mention that I already own a MSO5000.
It's a concept that is specific to everyone but what I'm looking for is if upgrading from a MSO5000 to a MSO7000 worth the money ( in terms of processing power, GUI, responsiveness ) or if I should rather keep my money and wait for the next generation.

As I can touch a MSO7000 for only 2000€, it is a hard decision to make  |O
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 11:32:21 am by jemangedeslolos »
 

Offline fact

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #227 on: February 19, 2020, 04:13:59 pm »
I looked at the options and decided that going for a MSO7014 would allow for a sensible investment with an interesting upgrade path. My scope now has all options enabled and a measured bandwidth of 800+ MHz. My budget is limited and certainly not sufficient for a scope with the specifications I have now. No idea how the responsiveness compares to the 5000 series but for me the 7000 is responsive enough.
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #228 on: February 19, 2020, 09:02:27 pm »
The 7000 is one that is overlooked, with the help of certain astute members of this forum the 7000 can be turned into a really good scope for a sensible cost.

Remember 10G/s + 500M of memory makes for good debug, it now has high resolution and precision functions, plus a 10 inch screen some useful tools plus an hdmi out.

We have one of these in test lab and it works very well, we also have an 8000 which is a real serious model. We also have Siglent, HP, Tektronix kit as well.

The Rigol's hold there own in a lot of areas, as I have mentioned before no they are not upper mid point top five brand scopes, but they do a lot right and the 8000 has some decent noise figures in certain areas that are equal to or slightly better than some of well know long established brands we have entertained recently.

We now have a LeCroy wavepro to bench test so we are lookig forward to that, however the Rigol scopes and RTA are damn fine for what we require and our staff like them and some of them are used to big ticket ticket items.

I occasionally curse the 8000 boot up time around 50 seconds , but the Tek mso64  took around 5 minutes to boot up. granted it is really an R&D scope and not an everyday bench item.

The 7000 you get an awful lot for your money, though I would suggesting investing in a couple of good probes,. Rigol also manufacturer a Tek to Rigol adapter as well.
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Offline tv84

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #229 on: February 19, 2020, 10:17:14 pm »
Sighound36 forgot to mention that he also possesses MSO5000 so he's one of the few people here that have tested/used them all.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #230 on: February 20, 2020, 09:24:45 pm »
It's a concept that is specific to everyone but what I'm looking for is if upgrading from a MSO5000 to a MSO7000 worth the money ( in terms of processing power, GUI, responsiveness ) or if I should rather keep my money and wait for the next generation.

As I was a little disappointed about the noisy frontend of the 5000, I was toying with the idea to change it against a 7000.
Asked the rigol.eu support, if they are differences between the 5000 and 7000 what this concerns, they´ve answered no, not at all.
Therefore, I´ve changed the brand.


Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #231 on: February 20, 2020, 11:17:28 pm »
I would think the main difference frontend wise would be the 50Ohm switching on the DS7000/MSO7000. There might be other simplifications in the MSO5000, but it seems sensible to assume that the noise level is in the same league.
What's for sure is that the DS7000 doesn't have a true 1mV/div or even 2mV/div range, either. So the lowest vertical range actually is 4mV/div and everything below is just digital magnification. I guess they didn't even bother to implement lower ranges since they would be unusable due to the noise level.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #232 on: February 21, 2020, 08:32:18 am »
At this price level, I think we have to make compromise.

I know it is stupid and it's not something everyone takes into account. But I owned a SDS2204X and the potentiometer are very bad, very low quality....and they keep the same for the SDS5000X
I used my scope almost every day and every day, I said to myself, damn guys, the potentiometers  |O

Even on the low cost DS1054Z, the potentiometer are much more pleasant to handle.

The SDS5000X doesn't come with logic probe and don't have the same hardware between the 350 and the 500Mhz model ( the 350Mhz can be upgraded to 500Mhz but only the 500Mhz can be upgraded to 1Ghz ).

I expected a lot from the new SDS2000XPlus, but it comes with shared vertical control, "only" 2Gs/s and the low cost model comes with standard probes ( and no auto sensing probes ).

I know that the SDS5000X and the SDS2000XPlus will be better in certain cases....but for a little less than 2000 € I bought yestreday a MSO7014 brand new.

So stop making me doubt  >:D
 

Online tautech

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #233 on: February 21, 2020, 08:56:14 am »

The SDS5000X doesn't come with logic probe
:-//
https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/spl2016/
Fits SDS2000X, SDS2000X Plus and SDS5000X
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #234 on: February 21, 2020, 09:03:15 am »

I know that the SDS5000X and the SDS2000XPlus will be better in certain cases....but for a little less than 2000 € I bought yestreday a MSO7014 brand new.

So stop making me doubt  >:D
In some way this reminds me of my PC repair shop days. People would come in with crappy PCs which didn't work well due to bad hardware. So the first diagnosis: you bought crappy hardware, live with it. Can tweak it a little but half your PC needs replacing if you want a machine which works fine. After making do for a while they usually came back for the hardware swap. So money going into my pocket again. But in the end these people ended spending more money on their cheap PC compared to buying a good one.

I'm seeing a similar pattern here. People keep swapping between scopes and brands and have to lose money in the process.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #235 on: February 21, 2020, 09:28:01 am »

The SDS5000X doesn't come with logic probe
:-//
https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/spl2016/
Fits SDS2000X, SDS2000X Plus and SDS5000X

I know that but it is 300+€ to add + 2500-2800€ for the scope.
It is about 1000€ more than the MSO7014 I bought  :-//
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 09:39:03 am by jemangedeslolos »
 

Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #236 on: February 21, 2020, 09:32:50 am »

I know that the SDS5000X and the SDS2000XPlus will be better in certain cases....but for a little less than 2000 € I bought yestreday a MSO7014 brand new.

So stop making me doubt  >:D
In some way this reminds me of my PC repair shop days. People would come in with crappy PCs which didn't work well due to bad hardware. So the first diagnosis: you bought crappy hardware, live with it. Can tweak it a little but half your PC needs replacing if you want a machine which works fine. After making do for a while they usually came back for the hardware swap. So money going into my pocket again. But in the end these people ended spending more money on their cheap PC compared to buying a good one.

I'm seeing a similar pattern here. People keep swapping between scopes and brands and have to lose money in the process.
When we listen to you, we have the impression that the oscilloscope is unusable, unreliable and crashes like a crappy PC....but it is not the case.

I would have loved to be able to afford an RTM3004 or a Keysight 3000T but this is not possible at this time.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 09:37:52 am by jemangedeslolos »
 

Offline tv84

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #237 on: February 21, 2020, 12:10:31 pm »
For those guys that want do play with their MSO/DS7000 here is a .GEL to temporarily open the SSH port.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #238 on: February 21, 2020, 01:33:50 pm »

I know that the SDS5000X and the SDS2000XPlus will be better in certain cases....but for a little less than 2000 € I bought yestreday a MSO7014 brand new.

So stop making me doubt  >:D
In some way this reminds me of my PC repair shop days. People would come in with crappy PCs which didn't work well due to bad hardware. So the first diagnosis: you bought crappy hardware, live with it. Can tweak it a little but half your PC needs replacing if you want a machine which works fine. After making do for a while they usually came back for the hardware swap. So money going into my pocket again. But in the end these people ended spending more money on their cheap PC compared to buying a good one.

I'm seeing a similar pattern here. People keep swapping between scopes and brands and have to lose money in the process.
When we listen to you, we have the impression that the oscilloscope is unusable, unreliable and crashes like a crappy PC....but it is not the case.
Then why did you go through (IIRC) 4 oscilloscopes in the past year?  >:D How much money did you spend in total?
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #239 on: February 21, 2020, 02:08:53 pm »
At this price level, I think we have to make compromise.
Not only on this level. On any level. There is no such thing as a perfect scope that makes everybody happy.

I know it is stupid and it's not something everyone takes into account. But I owned a SDS2204X and the potentiometer are very bad, very low quality....and they keep the same for the SDS5000X
I used my scope almost every day and every day, I said to myself, damn guys, the potentiometers  |O
Even on the low cost DS1054Z, the potentiometer are much more pleasant to handle.
I would bet that none of the mentioned scopes or any other somewhat serious digital scope of the last twenty years actually had potentiometers build in. Even twenty years ago, all the scopes on the market used rotary (quadrature/incremental) encoders.

The SDS5000X doesn't [..] have the same hardware between the 350 and the 500Mhz model ( the 350Mhz can be upgraded to 500Mhz but only the 500Mhz can be upgraded to 1Ghz ).
That's true but not really an argument to buy a Rigol DS/MSO7000 which doesn't even have a 1Ghz option.

I expected a lot from the new SDS2000XPlus, but it comes with shared vertical control, "only" 2Gs/s and the low cost model comes with standard probes ( and no auto sensing probes ).
Actually, only the top end model "SDS2354X Plus" comes with proper probes - and costs nearly as much as the Siglent SDS5034X (actually more if you consider the free options you get with the SDS5034X ). Anyway, this being cheap on the probes is really ridiculous.

I know that the SDS5000X and the SDS2000XPlus will be better in certain cases....but for a little less than 2000 € I bought yestreday a MSO7014 brand new.
Which is bout half of what it costs normally (3806.81€ including VAT). So while saving money always is a nice thing, it doesn't really make sense to compare a bargain to regular prices of other products.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #240 on: February 21, 2020, 02:12:28 pm »

I know that the SDS5000X and the SDS2000XPlus will be better in certain cases....but for a little less than 2000 € I bought yestreday a MSO7014 brand new.

So stop making me doubt  >:D
In some way this reminds me of my PC repair shop days. People would come in with crappy PCs which didn't work well due to bad hardware. So the first diagnosis: you bought crappy hardware, live with it. Can tweak it a little but half your PC needs replacing if you want a machine which works fine. After making do for a while they usually came back for the hardware swap. So money going into my pocket again. But in the end these people ended spending more money on their cheap PC compared to buying a good one.

I'm seeing a similar pattern here. People keep swapping between scopes and brands and have to lose money in the process.
When we listen to you, we have the impression that the oscilloscope is unusable, unreliable and crashes like a crappy PC....but it is not the case.
Then why did you go through (IIRC) 4 oscilloscopes in the past year?  >:D How much money did you spend in total?

You are not 100% wrong  ;D
I bought severals scope in the past four years....but I need 2 scope, one at work and one at home.
I started my business in 2015 and I have to say that I was not as crazy about test equipement as I am now.
At that time, the scope that were in my budget were based on old platform with limited CPU power, less capable regarding protocol decoding, auto measurement or math function for example.
And no one had a touch screen.

When i saw the progress that was made at this level, I wanted to change before my old scopes became unsaleable or completely obsolete.
But you can be sure that when my business will be more peaceful and that I will have more money, I will buy a Keysight.

For the moment, I have not encountered big troubles during my development because of my Chinese scope.
I am certainly less competent than you and work on less complex things which explains why I can live with 2000€ oscilloscope when you need a >6000€ one.
 

Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #241 on: February 21, 2020, 02:22:09 pm »
At this price level, I think we have to make compromise.
Not only on this level. On any level. There is no such thing as a perfect scope that makes everybody happy.

I know it is stupid and it's not something everyone takes into account. But I owned a SDS2204X and the potentiometer are very bad, very low quality....and they keep the same for the SDS5000X
I used my scope almost every day and every day, I said to myself, damn guys, the potentiometers  |O
Even on the low cost DS1054Z, the potentiometer are much more pleasant to handle.
I would bet that none of the mentioned scopes or any other somewhat serious digital scope of the last twenty years actually had potentiometers build in. Even twenty years ago, all the scopes on the market used rotary (quadrature/incremental) encoders.

The SDS5000X doesn't [..] have the same hardware between the 350 and the 500Mhz model ( the 350Mhz can be upgraded to 500Mhz but only the 500Mhz can be upgraded to 1Ghz ).
That's true but not really an argument to buy a Rigol DS/MSO7000 which doesn't even have a 1Ghz option.

I expected a lot from the new SDS2000XPlus, but it comes with shared vertical control, "only" 2Gs/s and the low cost model comes with standard probes ( and no auto sensing probes ).
Actually, only the top end model "SDS2354X Plus" comes with proper probes - and costs nearly as much as the Siglent SDS5034X (actually more if you consider the free options you get with the SDS5034X ). Anyway, this being cheap on the probes is really ridiculous.

I know that the SDS5000X and the SDS2000XPlus will be better in certain cases....but for a little less than 2000 € I bought yestreday a MSO7014 brand new.
Which is bout half of what it costs normally (3806.81€ including VAT). So while saving money always is a nice thing, it doesn't really make sense to compare a bargain to regular prices of other products.

You are right, I meant rotary encoder. But that doesn't change the fact that they are cheap on the Siglent and much better on Rigol scope.
It sound ridiculous but that matters to me, just like the fan noise....and to be honest, it is better on Siglent scope.

And regarding the price, sadly, it make sense to me. I hope one day It will not.
I don't know why the price was so low this time, it is a brand new device. For me and my needs, I think it is hard to have a better price/perf ratio.

And last little info, the MSO7000 has no 1Ghz option you are right, but hacked to 500Mhz, it has a BW >800Mhz which will be enough for me.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 02:26:24 pm by jemangedeslolos »
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #242 on: February 21, 2020, 02:41:04 pm »
I don't know why the price was so low this time, it is a brand new device. For me and my needs, I think it is hard to have a better price/perf ratio.
Of course a ~50% discount can change the perspective about a product, but this doesn't really matter for those paying the full price.

And last little info, the MSO7000 has no 1Ghz option you are right, but hacked to 500Mhz, it has a BW >800Mhz which will be enough for me.
Well, that's debatable I guess. Maybe it will give a step response that looks like 800MHz bandwidth, but that's not necessarily the same thing.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #243 on: February 21, 2020, 03:34:02 pm »
Of course a ~50% discount can change the perspective about a product, but this doesn't really matter for those paying the full price.

I never said that my choice was the best whatever the scenario.
I had never been interested in this scope before coming across this offer.
After taking a closer look, at this price, I thought it was one of the best options for the poor man that I am.

Well, that's debatable I guess. Maybe it will give a step response that looks like 800MHz bandwidth, but that's not necessarily the same thing.

I think Sighound36 has all the equipment necessary to make this measurement for us.
I believe he use two method to measure the BW and he found 850Mhz with flat method  :)
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #244 on: February 21, 2020, 04:04:02 pm »
The rise time taken with the Bodnar reference (40ps) no bandwidth or high resolution mode on

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Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #245 on: February 21, 2020, 04:10:51 pm »
So the average step response bandwidth with the commonly used rule of thumb (0.35/t_rise) would be 764.5MHz. Anyway, as assumed, this is just the bandwidth calculated from the rule of thumb which doesn't take into account any (digital) filtering going on in the scope. At least my understanding is that the factor 0.35 is merely based on an RC lowpass filter at the input.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #246 on: February 21, 2020, 04:30:43 pm »
At least my understanding is that the factor 0.35 is merely based on an RC lowpass filter at the input.
That is correct. Basically you can't determine the bandwidth of a DSO using the rise time.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #247 on: February 21, 2020, 04:54:41 pm »
Correct 0.35 is rule of thumb, though some use 0.45 depending on how good they want you to see there products.

That means that a great many product literature sheets are incorrect then?

https://community.keysight.com/community/keysight-blogs/oscilloscopes/blog/2016/09/01/what-is-oscilloscope-system-bandwidth-and-how-do-i-find-the-bandwidth-of-the-scope-probe
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Offline nctnico

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #248 on: February 21, 2020, 04:58:44 pm »
Correct 0.35 is rule of thumb, though some use 0.45 depending on how good they want you to see there products.

That means that a great many product literature sheets are incorrect then?

https://community.keysight.com/community/keysight-blogs/oscilloscopes/blog/2016/09/01/what-is-oscilloscope-system-bandwidth-and-how-do-i-find-the-bandwidth-of-the-scope-probe
The link you added clearly says that the factor of .35 isn't set in stone. So yes, every piece of literature which blindly assumes a factor of .35 is wrong. Bandwidth (of any system) is defined as the point where the level is >3dB different compared to the reference level.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 05:01:15 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Sighound36

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Re: New Rigol DS7000
« Reply #249 on: February 21, 2020, 05:25:57 pm »
Indeed but using the 0.45 formula would give a a greater bandwidth in retrospective so in essence stretching things a bit I feel!

You can also use a know signal frequency and amplitude as benchmark and work you work up the frequencies until you reach the point of -3db roll off this you can compare to the rise times to check you are getting for a correlation between the two methods.

If you like (Siglent appreciation society founding member) I am happy to work both methods on our Wavepro 254 for you later if you wish.

The 7000 is with one of my colleagues this week, however I can also perform the same tests on the MSO8000 ?





 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 05:29:31 pm by Sighound36 »
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 


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