New Rigol HDO1000 12-bit DSO - BUGs

[markone]

I Just saw, for the first time,  Dave's HDO4000 Unboxing & First Impression video until the end, apart bugs in line with a young product, what i really can't stand for are things like waveform utterly stuck during vertical positioning, hardware wise this platform can do a lot better.

My old GW Instek toy GDS2072E does a much better job in this aspect, here we have a product line that reaches 5K euros in listing, if I were in place of Rigol marketing manager i would stress R/D department for a decent FW delivery ASAP.

[nctnico]

"...Do you know what we call it internally when it is clear at launch that the product is not quite ready yet ?
Banana version...banana version ??
Yes, banana version - matures with the customer."

I love it. So from now on we call incomplete test equipment firmware 'banana-ware' 

[TK]

Besides decode functionality, scope SW seems to be stable.

[markone]

Besides decode functionality, scope SW seems to be stable.

Do you confirm that during trace's vertical positioning the whole screen update is interrupted ?

[Martin72]

Do you think this is a bug?
Then all scopes I know have this bug.

[TK]

Do you think this is a bug?
Then all scopes I know have this bug.

Not the Keysight.  It updates the waveform during vertical positioning

[Martin72]

That´s right, I don´t know keysight scopes..

[markone]

That´s right, I don´t know keysight scopes..

You do not know also my GWINSTEK GDS-2072E, as i already said, it updates screen during vertical trace positioning, and it is a toy, so no need to mention expensive DSOs like Lecroy or Keysight.

What i saw in Steve video is an utterly frozen trace dragged on the screen, AFAIK this happens also with the 5K euro HDO4804 

[2N3055]

Do you think this is a bug?
Then all scopes I know have this bug.

Not the Keysight.  It updates the waveform during vertical positioning

Are you sure? Because MSOX3000T (it cost 3x more than HDO4804) stops triggering when you move vertical on a channel. It stops updating as long as you move it around quickly. It restarts without any delay so as soon as you stop moving it is back but stops while moving. You are moving last, frozen, capture up and down until you stop moving knob. And then it resumes.

And what is practical purpose of "updating while moving"? In what way is that useful? Or it has to be that way because CRTs do that (by nature of being analog) so it is "a right way"...

I couldn't care less if scope stops triggering completely (3000T stops ) because you are moving things on screen.
Scope simply waits for you to decide what command you will give it so it can resume doing that with new parameters.

That is a non problem.

[TK]

That´s right, I don´t know keysight scopes..

You do not know also my GWINSTEK GDS-2072E, as i already said, it updates screen during vertical trace positioning, and it is a toy, so no need to mention expensive DSOs like Lecroy or Keysight.

What i saw in Steve video is an utterly frozen trace dragged on the screen, AFAIK this happens also with the 5K euro HDO4804 

I have a toy Keysight EDUX1052A and it updates screen during vertical trace positioning.  I think the issue is not that it is useful or not for the scope to update the screen during repositioning of traces, but it shows how the SW is working inside and synchronizing all its modules concurrently.  The fact that some operations need to be frozen, means concurrency is not correctly implemented and taking advantage of the powerful CPU cores and it's communication with the FPGA and it also causes freezing and application reloads.  It is my humble opinion, as a software engineer.

[markone]

That´s right, I don´t know keysight scopes..

You do not know also my GWINSTEK GDS-2072E, as i already said, it updates screen during vertical trace positioning, and it is a toy, so no need to mention expensive DSOs like Lecroy or Keysight.

What i saw in Steve video is an utterly frozen trace dragged on the screen, AFAIK this happens also with the 5K euro HDO4804 

I have a toy Keysight EDUX1052A and it updates screen during vertical trace positioning.  I think the issue is not that it is useful or not for the scope to update the screen during repositioning of traces, but it shows how the SW is working inside and synchronizing all its modules concurrently.  The fact that some operations need to be frozen, means concurrency is not correctly implemented and taking advantage of the powerful CPU cores and it's communication with the FPGA and it also causes freezing and application reloads.  It is my humble opinion, as a software engineer.

That's exactly the point.

[Martin72]

That is a non problem.

Signing this.
What benefits you got when it´s not "freezing" while playing with the vertical adjustment..

[skander36]

Do you think this is a bug?
Then all scopes I know have this bug.

Not the Keysight.  It updates the waveform during vertical positioning

Keysight 2K stop when do vertical positioning.

[2N3055]

That´s right, I don´t know keysight scopes..

You do not know also my GWINSTEK GDS-2072E, as i already said, it updates screen during vertical trace positioning, and it is a toy, so no need to mention expensive DSOs like Lecroy or Keysight.

What i saw in Steve video is an utterly frozen trace dragged on the screen, AFAIK this happens also with the 5K euro HDO4804 

I have a toy Keysight EDUX1052A and it updates screen during vertical trace positioning.  I think the issue is not that it is useful or not for the scope to update the screen during repositioning of traces, but it shows how the SW is working inside and synchronizing all its modules concurrently.  The fact that some operations need to be frozen, means concurrency is not correctly implemented and taking advantage of the powerful CPU cores and it's communication with the FPGA and it also causes freezing and application reloads.  It is my humble opinion, as a software engineer.

That's exactly the point.

But that is exactly the point. Toy scope that has special architecture with minimum memory (it has 100-200X less memory than HDO1000), measurement from decimated data and no statistics. It's architecture was optimized for CRT scope emulation and fast as possible UI at the cost of everything else..

But I do think all of these news scopes could use some optimization. It can freeze waveform while I move knob. It shouldn't wait for a second to resume though. That is the key. Keysight 3000T that also stops triggering while moving button, resumes triggering immediately, so most people think it keeps displaying while moving.

[Martin72]

Starting a new Thread to keep this free for Topic...

[thm_w]

That new Tek 'scope that appeared a couple of months ago didn't have the serial decoders enabled on launch because they weren't finished yet.

If the serial decoders on this one work above 50mS/div then that's something. I'm sure most people would rather have that today than a promise of "maybe next year sometime", like the Tek.

No. Because with the Tektronix it is specified the decoders don't work -yet- so you can base your choice on that. It is all about unspecified surprises (= bugs) that make buying the Rigol an adventure. If you need working decoders today, you don't buy the Tektronix (unless decoders have been added in the meantime) but something else that you know works. MicSig did the same when they released the TO1000 series; the decoders where added later and MicSig was totally open about that. In the end nobody benefits from a feature that is half baked at the release.

Yeah that is totally valid.

Still you'd think at this point people would realize that serial decoding is low on the priority list for a number of scope manufacturers, for a reason (as Kleinstein points out).

[markone]

That is a non problem.

Signing this.
What benefits you got when it´s not "freezing" while playing with the vertical adjustment..

That you do not loose control on monitored system that could be an high power inverter in alpha stage development. 

Anyhow I decided to overcome this whole matter in necessity of quiet instrument :  scope purchased during black Friday sale and arrived today, first impression :

- screen quality is simply awesome, high contrast sharp image, responsive and good feeling touch operations, very good analog intensity emulation
- nice screen layout
- analog resolution is actually very high, for the first time i can spot DAC stepping of mine SDG2042X
- fan is loud as well as DS1054Z
- bug fest with serial decoder engaged

Does anyone know if it's available a FW update ?

Main Rigol sites do not have nothing.

[markone]

I would like to report a quite annoying bug, some settings are not stored / restored correctly across a shutdown, even manually recalling a setup saving.

For instance, at least in my case, channel one coupling is erroneously set to AC after reboot.

[tooki]

The same with i2c, I have to set the threshold to 4.4V for the decoder to decode correctly (The i2c signal on the Arduino has a slow rise time due to internal resistor value).

FYI, you probably just need to add an appropriately sized pull-up resistor for your bus capacitance.

See the attached guide from TI, it has a formula.

[skander36]

I would like to report a quite annoying bug, some settings are not stored / restored correctly across a shutdown, even manually recalling a setup saving.

For instance, at least in my case, channel one coupling is erroneously set to AC after reboot.

Yes, I can confirm this behaviour. I was thought that it is on purpose but I don't remember to read about this in user manual.
Also Flex knob does not always action even if it has focus on that field.

[TK]

I would like to report a quite annoying bug, some settings are not stored / restored correctly across a shutdown, even manually recalling a setup saving.

For instance, at least in my case, channel one coupling is erroneously set to AC after reboot.

Yes, I can confirm this behaviour. I was thought that it is on purpose but I don't remember to read about this in user manual.
Also Flex knob does not always action even if it has focus on that field.

I have the same issue.  My unit also defaults channel one to 20MHz bandwidth limit.  Happens with and without probe attached.

[markone]

Spotted right now another issue with Trigger with low level signal, i.e Sine 1MHz 50mVpp does not trigger with zero and negative thresholds (see attached image).
Rising threshold to 5mV and / or signal amplitude to 60mVpp scope starts to trigger ...

[TK]

Spotted right now another issue with Trigger with low level signal, i.e Sine 1MHz 50mVpp does not trigger with zero and negative thresholds (see attached image).
Rising threshold to 5mV and / or signal amplitude to 60mVpp scope starts to trigger ...

Does it not trigger at all or you see erratic triggering?  My experience with trigger at 0V is that it is subject to the input signal noise as it fluctuates and causes the trigger to fail

[markone]

Spotted right now another issue with Trigger with low level signal, i.e Sine 1MHz 50mVpp does not trigger with zero and negative thresholds (see attached image).
Rising threshold to 5mV and / or signal amplitude to 60mVpp scope starts to trigger ...

Does it not trigger at all or you see erratic triggering?  My experience with trigger at 0V is that it is subject to the input signal noise as it fluctuates and causes the trigger to fail

Does not trigger at all but i guess it would be enough to slowly rise the threshold to find the condition you describe.

Funny thing is that if you change signal shape you get different results.

[skander36]

  My unit also defaults channel one to 20MHz bandwidth limit.  Happens with and without probe attached.

Indeed. Also on Rigol 5K (Rigol tradition ). On HDO 1K you can disable if you want after start. Rigol 5k don't let you disable bw limit on signal levels under 2 mVpp.