Author Topic: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019  (Read 3471 times)

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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« on: August 20, 2019, 01:55:14 pm »
Hi Everyone,

We introduced a new 2-quadrant power supply today, the NGM200:

[attachimg=1]

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/product/ngm200-productstartpage_63493-652229.html

You can think of the NGM200 as a big brother to the NGL200 family, but with faster data logging (up to 500ks/s), built-in battery simulation and even better accuracy thanks to measurement range switching.

We have a few videos on it out already:

Key Features Overview (1m35s):


Battery Simulation (2m49s):


DVM Overview (1m49s):


In addition, there is a very thorough review and teardown of a pre-production unit by Dr. Gough Lui:
https://goughlui.com/2019/08/20/launch-day-review-rohde-schwarz-ngm202-power-supply-overview/

Pricing starts at US$4,130.  Clearly this isn't something you might buy for your home lab, but for those of you working with products that use batteries, need data logging, require very accurate/sensitive voltage/current supply and/or need fast load recovery, this might be worth a look.

-Rich
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 01:57:57 pm by Rich@RohdeScopesUSA »
 

Offline marber

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New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2019, 07:14:28 pm »
Nice. This seems to be the successor to the NGMO? Fairly similar featureset.
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2019, 07:15:46 pm »
Nice. This seems to be the successor to the NGMO? Fairly similar featureset.
Yes - I'd agree with that.

-Rich
 

Offline Nx-1997

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2019, 08:43:34 pm »
Wow look at that price tag. My Agilent 6632B & 6612C can also sink and source current, you can pick them both up for cheap on eBay. They aren’t as accurate as this thing, but they will do the job.
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2019, 09:13:00 pm »
Those are just general purpose power supplies. This is a bit more than that.
 

Offline marber

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2019, 09:16:20 pm »
Wow look at that price tag. My Agilent 6632B & 6612C can also sink and source current, you can pick them both up for cheap on eBay. They aren’t as accurate as this thing, but they will do the job.

That part of the job, yes. These units do several jobs more. ;)

I bought an NGMO2 for $200, basically as a versatile, fast and accurate PSU and load. (I think they used to go for similar sums until these replacement models until recently.) But I’m also quite enjoying it now I’m working with battery powered devices and sleep modes, which it can trigger, sample and store at 100kSps. The NGM200 looks like a nice upgrade. But indeed not feasible for my home lab, though.
 

Offline JxR

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2019, 09:24:26 pm »
Like Keithley's battery simulators, I do think you still need another separate device that can actually characterize the battery and make a profile for the NGM to use.

I do wish my NGL had the same current range switching capabilities.  I miss having my NGL around since it died after only a month of use.  R&S have had it for about 1.5 months now for warranty service and still have not returned it.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 09:54:11 pm by JxR »
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2019, 09:25:39 pm »
Like Keithley's battery simulators, I do think you still need another separate device that can actually characterize the battery and make a profile for the NGM to use.

I do wish my NGL had the same range switching.  I miss having my NGL around since it died after only a month of use.  R&S has had it for about 1.5 months now for warranty service and still have not returned it.

From the data sheet they have some common batteries set up already, but you can add more profiles if you need.

Maybe they can upgrade you as a sign of goodwill, hahaha.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 09:28:07 pm by maginnovision »
 
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Offline JxR

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2019, 09:28:19 pm »
Maybe they can upgrade you as a sign of goodwill, hahaha.

Not going to hold my breath on that one...but that would certainly be nice.
 

Offline mairo

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2019, 09:30:31 pm »
...
Pricing starts at US$4,130.  Clearly this isn't something you might buy for your home lab, but for those of you working with products that use batteries, need data logging, require very accurate/sensitive voltage/current supply and/or need fast load recovery, this might be worth a look.

-Rich
You clearly underestimate people's home labs  8)
 
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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2019, 10:10:35 pm »
R&S have had it for about 1.5 months now for warranty service and still have not returned it.
|O

Just messaged you. 

-Rich
 

Offline JxR

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2019, 10:28:04 pm »
R&S have had it for about 1.5 months now for warranty service and still have not returned it.
|O

Just messaged you. 

-Rich

Thanks, and I replied.  Rich is pretty bad ass if you haven't figured it out.  I dropped his name once on a ticket I had with R&S (after he agreed to look into something for me).  The R&S rep gave the impression that Rich had enormous pull inside the company, so we are lucky to have him around.
 
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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2019, 10:32:50 pm »
Thanks, and I replied.  Rich is pretty bad ass if you haven't figured it out.  I dropped his name once on a ticket I had with R&S (after he agreed to look into something for me).  The R&S rep gave the impression that Rich had enormous pull inside the company, so we are lucky to have him around.
Thanks :) It's an awesome team - I'm fortunate to get to work with them.   :-+

-Rich
 

Online Someone

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2019, 10:37:33 pm »
Good to see many features that were previously exclusive to 4 quadrant supplies appearing in this format. The current compliance issue noted by the reviewer will limit its appeal for some tasks.
 

Online Someone

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2019, 10:41:48 pm »
Wow look at that price tag. My Agilent 6632B & 6612C can also sink and source current, you can pick them both up for cheap on eBay. They aren’t as accurate as this thing, but they will do the job.
Why buy a new phone when you can buy something years old and second hand for a fraction of the price? Different people have different priorities but trying to compare pricing of a brand new and warranted device is not really useful. On the flip side...

Have fun with your GPIB interfaces, automating workflows with faster interfaces can get the job done quicker/more accurately.
 

Offline pansku

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2019, 04:34:59 am »
So when is The Signal Path review coming  :popcorn:
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2019, 11:01:49 am »
So when is The Signal Path review coming  :popcorn:
I've come to realize how much I depend on both the EEVblog and The Signal Path for product information other than just the marketing and dealer material. For most devices it's rather hard to find any decent information.
 

Offline KaneTW

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2019, 01:17:33 pm »
How does this compare to a Keithley SMU?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2019, 01:30:39 pm »
How does this compare to a Keithley SMU?
Keithley SMUs are 4 quadrant.
 

Offline JxR

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2019, 01:44:40 pm »
How does this compare to a Keithley SMU?

It is a 2-quadrant power supply vs a 4-quadrant device.  The NGM can be programmed in 1mV or 0.1mA steps.  A typical modern Keithley SMU in contrast can be programmed in 500nV or 500fA steps (although this varies on the model).

They honestly are vastly different tools, and an NGM would be not be a suitable replacement for a SMU imho.  Although if you have something more specific in you are interested in how they compare, I might be able to shed more light on it having worked with related tools.

SMUs can also be fill the following roles within their V/I specs:
Power Supply (so can NGM)
Load (both can sink I, SMU can also sink V)
Voltmeter
Ammeter (less than 100uV burden voltage, so much better than most DMMs)
Ohmeter (this is just a calculation done on sourcing/measuring V/I or I/V)

If you are really interested in a device to do battery simulation, then you need to consider getting both the NGM and a SMU.  You would need a device like an SMU (or something else) to characterize batteries to provide profiles for the NGM to use (if a profile is not already provided).
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 02:07:05 pm by JxR »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2019, 02:11:50 pm »
It is a 2-quadrant power supply vs a 4-quadrant device.  The NGM can be programmed in 1mV or 0.1mA steps.  A typical modern Keithley SMU in contrast can be programmed in 500nV or 500fA steps (although this varies on the model).

They honestly are vastly different tools, and an NGM would be not be a suitable replacement for a SMU imho.  Although if you have something more specific in you are interested in how they compare, I might be able to shed more light on it having worked with related tools.

SMUs can also be fill the following roles within their V/I specs:
Power Supply (so can NGM)
Load (both can sink I, SMU can also sink V)
Voltmeter
Ammeter (less than 100uV burden voltage, so much better than most DMMs)
Ohmeter (this is just a calculation done on sourcing/measuring V/I or I/V)

If you are really interested in a device to do battery simulation, then you need to consider getting both the NGM and a SMU.  You would need a device like an SMU (or something else) to characterize batteries to provide profiles for the NGM to use (if a profile is not already provided).
I'm definitely interested but my wallet disagrees.  :palm:
 

Offline JxR

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2019, 03:04:11 pm »
I'm definitely interested but my wallet disagrees.  :palm:

I'm actually very happy with my old Keithley 238 SMU, and you can get the old brown monsters for fairly cheap if your patient.  Not as fancy as the modern ones, but it is actually much more accurate at sourcing current than my 2450 (on the low ranges).

Back on topic, I would love to get an NGM as well and had the opportunity to send my NGL back and wait for the NGM to be released.  But, in the end I couldn't really afford one.  I do have a feeling I might be able to do battery simulation with the NGL and scripting though, although I didn't get a chance to try yet (but will once I get the NGL back from R&S).

Of course if R&S wants to upgrade me while they have my NGL, I would be happy to accept!  ;)
 

Offline marber

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2019, 03:52:55 pm »
If you are really interested in a device to do battery simulation, then you need to consider getting both the NGM and a SMU.  You would need a device like an SMU (or something else) to characterize batteries to provide profiles for the NGM to use (if a profile is not already provided).

What would you need (from a SMU) to characterize batteries that an NGM can't do on its own?
 

Offline JxR

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2019, 04:07:05 pm »
What would you need (from a SMU) to characterize batteries that an NGM can't do on its own?

You need to be able to calculate the battery's total capacity, then the open circuit voltage, and ESR for each percentage level of batteries capacity.  With its separate voltmeter capability I expect the NGM could technically measure the open circuit voltage by pulsing its output on and off since it has relays on the output, but it would probably cause excessive wear on the relays.  That is maybe why they didn't include the capability. You would just use the load voltage, load current, and the open circuit voltage to get the ESR.

There is nothing in the datasheet that suggest it can characterize batteries itself though.

Edit: I believe there are better devices to characterize batteries than SMUs, although I'm not an expert on that.  I mention SMUs because Keithley provides a nice script specifically for doing this characterizations with their modern SMUs (To support their own equipment that does battery simulation).
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 04:49:41 pm by JxR »
 

Offline JxR

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2019, 03:04:21 pm »
Maybe they can upgrade you as a sign of goodwill, hahaha.

Well we joked a bit about it, but that is exactly what is happening  ;D:

Quote from: R&S (edited)
Good morning JxR,
I hope this finds you well. A return RMA XXXXXXXXX has been created for you. I have placed an order for a new NGM202 (free of charge) which will ship to you soon. Please return NGL202 SN: XXXXX in your possession once you receive the new unit. Here is the address to ship to....
 
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Offline JxR

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2019, 05:44:40 am »
I'm still awaiting delivery of my own NGM202, which I've been told it is currently in the "build queue".  Hope to see it soon.  In the meantime, I found a nice review online that someone has posted of this unit:
https://goughlui.com/2019/08/20/launch-day-review-rohde-schwarz-ngm202-power-supply-overview/

I do plan on posting my thoughts on the device as well, once I've spent some time with it. 

I'm specifically interested in investigating:

- Battery simulation performance with the built-in vs custom generated battery profiles.
- Battery charging simulation using the same profiles (only unit I'm aware of that simulates this).
- Real-time (or close to real time) acquisition and graphing of measurement data using the fast-capture mode (500 kSPS).

If anyone is interested in something specific to the unit, let me know and I'll see if I can look into it once I have the unit on hand. 

Big thank you to Rich, and to R&S for the opportunity to test the NGM!
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 05:48:40 am by JxR »
 
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Offline maginnovision

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2019, 06:19:45 am »
Maybe they can upgrade you as a sign of goodwill, hahaha.

Well we joked a bit about it, but that is exactly what is happening  ;D:

Quote from: R&S (edited)
Good morning JxR,
I hope this finds you well. A return RMA XXXXXXXXX has been created for you. I have placed an order for a new NGM202 (free of charge) which will ship to you soon. Please return NGL202 SN: XXXXX in your possession once you receive the new unit. Here is the address to ship to....


That's great! I actually mentioned it as BMW has always been fairly generous with Goodwill gestures and your chances were good with Rich here. For a company like R&S it's a much better move than just telling you to keep waiting, at least now you're waiting for something more.

I hope it shows up soon and works well.  :-+
 
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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2019, 03:59:07 pm »
Big thank you to Rich, and to R&S for the opportunity to test the NGM!
It was the right thing to do and I was happy to help.  Thanks for your patience  :-+

-Rich
 
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Offline JxR

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2019, 05:59:18 am »
I did receive the NGM202.  I've barely had time to play with it, but I like what I see so far.  I do want to spend some time with it before I say much about it. I already have a couple UI suggestions I plan to run by R&S.

One of my projects I'm working on for the next 1.5 months uses a Li-Ion battery with wireless charging.  I think this will be a good test of the NGM since there are a few more variables involved than the standard battery powered circuit with USB charging (Semtech ICs with Wurth Elektronik coils).  The transmitter and receiver coils/circuit I'm using are capable of 20W, and the NGM had no problem quickly confirming the efficiency at ~81% (not too bad for this type of circuit).  I'm really liking that the NGM allows you to test charging the battery model which is a unique feature.

The cells I plan on using just came in today, so planning on getting a discharge profile built once I have them charged up.  Then see how it compares to the built in profiles.

Thanks again to Rich for the opportunity to test NGM.
 
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Offline mairo

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2019, 09:55:01 am »
Hi JxR, can the NGM create a battery profile by discharging it, similar to what you can do with a SMU (e.g. from Keithley) ?
 

Offline JxR

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2019, 12:50:12 am »
Hi JxR, can the NGM create a battery profile by discharging it, similar to what you can do with a SMU (e.g. from Keithley) ?

It currently doesn't have that feature.

Although I think it might be possible to add such a feature if they wanted to.  There are relays on the output, so they could technically drain a battery off and on.  Use the force/sense terminals to measure the battery under load.  Then open the relays and take the open circuit voltage reading with the DVM terimals (which work regardless of the output relays being open).  With both measurements, and sink current, should be able to calculate the ESR of the battery at various states.

I think it would put some wear on the relays though.

It is probably already possible to script something like this yourself I would expect. I haven't looked at all the relevant SCPI commands but I'm guessing there is something in there to get the DVM measurement.  Standard volt/current measurements when the output is on is definitely there.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 01:00:02 am by JxR »
 

Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2019, 02:10:21 pm »
It looks like this product has been designed to work together with CMU and CMW in production or service lab, where they must buy it no matter the price. The right price range for such product is around Euro 1000.Net - That's my opinion  :popcorn:
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Offline JxR

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2019, 06:48:30 pm »
The right price range for such product is around Euro 1000.Net - That's my opinion  :popcorn:

Yeah, but then you would still need to purchase the "R&S-NGM-K001: Boots when you press the power button" license for an additional 3700 euro.  They must have decided to just include that license in the base model.  Which honestly is convenient, since it would be hard to put in that license key manually when the unit wouldn't turn on without it.
 
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Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2019, 06:56:26 pm »
The right price range for such product is around Euro 1000.Net - That's my opinion  :popcorn:

Yeah, but then you would still need to purchase the "R&S-NGM-K001: Boots when you press the power button" license for an additional 3700 euro.  They must have decided to just include that license in the base model.  Which honestly is convenient, since it would be hard to put in that license key manually when the unit wouldn't turn on without it.
yes, doesn't matter what options ... 1K is the price, no more
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Offline nctnico

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2019, 07:09:19 pm »
The right price range for such product is around Euro 1000.Net - That's my opinion  :popcorn:

Yeah, but then you would still need to purchase the "R&S-NGM-K001: Boots when you press the power button" license for an additional 3700 euro.  They must have decided to just include that license in the base model.  Which honestly is convenient, since it would be hard to put in that license key manually when the unit wouldn't turn on without it.
yes, doesn't matter what options ... 1K is the price, no more
It would be great at the price point but the reality is that you can't design & produce a PSU with an extremely accurate measurement unit included for that price. Even from a Chinese brand such a device would easely cost 2k to 3k. It is way beyond a simple bench PSU and well into SMU territory.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline JxR

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2019, 07:23:54 pm »
It also can take measurements at 500kSPS @6.5 digits of resolution, and can keep up that rate until your usb flash drive runs out of space.  The closest competitor, the Keithly 2281-S is $3k, only 1ch and has a max ~30kSPS @ 3.5digits and can only record 2500 samples. 

Only the Keithley 2461 SMU has a faster sampling rate at 1MSPS, and it can sample and record at that rate for ~2secs (it cost ~$10k). 

The NGM can easily sample for minutes at its fastest rate.  I already did a 30sec sample and it was about 700MB on a 16GB flash card.  So multiple minutes of data for about a $10 flash drive.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 07:42:36 pm by JxR »
 

Offline Yashu

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Re: New R&S 2-Quadrant Power Supply NGM200 - 20Aug2019
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2020, 06:01:55 pm »
Hi JxR, can the NGM create a battery profile by discharging it, similar to what you can do with a SMU (e.g. from Keithley) ?

It currently doesn't have that feature.

Although I think it might be possible to add such a feature if they wanted to.  There are relays on the output, so they could technically drain a battery off and on.  Use the force/sense terminals to measure the battery under load.  Then open the relays and take the open circuit voltage reading with the DVM terimals (which work regardless of the output relays being open).  With both measurements, and sink current, should be able to calculate the ESR of the battery at various states.

I think it would put some wear on the relays though.

It is probably already possible to script something like this yourself I would expect. I haven't looked at all the relevant SCPI commands but I'm guessing there is something in there to get the DVM measurement.  Standard volt/current measurements when the output is on is definitely there.

The non-reactive model within the NGM200 can only go so far.

The simple Voc and ESR model at the beginning of this video is still pretty good:
https://www.mathworks.com/videos/automating-the-parameter-estimation-of-a-battery-model-95187.html?s_tid=srchtitle

Thanks to the EV craze, Mathworks has great recent models.. even stochastic and neural network topologies.

http://www.yashu.com
« Last Edit: August 26, 2020, 06:10:43 pm by Yashu »
 


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