You can argue about the sense or nonsense of a demoboard, but I like such things... ;)
But 200 EUR shipped to USA (including the intro discount) is a bit much.
You can argue about the sense or nonsense of a demoboard, but I like such things... ;)
But 200 EUR shipped to USA (including the intro discount) is a bit much. I imagine low volume and cost of good docs (the examples in the images appear to be pretty good) must account for a fair bit of the price.
OK, after the intro discount, the price is nearly the same like the others - don´t know what makes demoboards so "expensive".
We have several versions but we don't sell them.
most of them from the new MXO4: nice 8)
I would be one of the first orderers
"one of the first" as in "only one"?
Martin, I think this is a sign...
We have several versions but we don't sell them.Bad boy! Martin72 surely would buy one for his collection. :D
And with the batronix board, my "collection" will grow up to two.
That´s enough. ;)
Quote"one of the first" as in "only one"?
Possible, my friend... ;)
Oh, I'm pretty sure someone else has already ordered one .....
:-DDOh, I'm pretty sure someone else has already ordered one .....
Martin is infectious... :P
Get your revenge by facilitating him a nice MXO4 discount... shhh....
But where the Batronix board clearly "wins" is the documentation.Yes, they don't make scopes so need hold your hand for whatever scope you connect to it !
But where the Batronix board clearly "wins" is the documentation.
Without any doubt.
- All customers who have already received a demo board without printed documentation will receive the printed version as soon as it is available.
- @Martin72: You were really fast, but not the first or only orderer. But you get the bronze medal as third orderer! ;-)
Can you provide some more info on those demo boards that are not for sale? :)
Hehe...
I would be happy if I had to pay only 40 euro for shipping from the States to Germany. ;)
I guess that depends what you're shipping.
They sound like they'd be fun for a couple hours, but then what?
These test boards are all so expensive. They sound like they'd be fun for a couple hours, but then what? I should look on ebay or something. TE sells the Siglent ones used for full price. 🙄
They can be useful for setting up complex triggers and the like, making sure your scope will do what you want before you use it on your circuit.
And for educational situtations. This is why modern scopes use their AWG to produce "training signals".
But of course they are mostly used for demos and of course for scope comparison for reviewers like myself. Or even if you are evaluating a new high end scope and you want to easily test the functionality.
2.4.3 Pulse width trigger (pulse width trigger)
The Pulse-Width-Trigger triggers on positive or negative pulses, which are shorter or
longer than an adjustable time. This can be used, for example, to trigger on periodic or
repeating patterns.
Depending on the manufacturer, this trigger is also called just Pulse or Width trigger.
Please perform the following steps:
- Set Select 1 to "7" and Select 2 to "B" (burst with 12 pulses).
- Measure the "DAC-FLT" signal (J5) with a probe or connect it with a BNC cable to an oscilloscope.
BNC cable to an oscilloscope channel.
- Set the vertical scaling to 500 mV/div and the horizontal scaling to
500 μs/div
- If you trigger with the "Edge" trigger on this signal, different pulses will
trigger and you will see a changing non-stationary display.
- Now use the "Pulse Width" trigger and trigger on the pause between the pulses.
the pulses. Set the trigger level a little bit below the "pause voltage",
e.g. to 0.8 V and the polarity of the trigger to positive. The pause time is approx.
800 μs, therefore set the trigger to e.g. > 400 μs.
Those look interesting, but I can't bring myself to pay 40 Euros for shipping lol.
It would be interesting to find out more about the authors of the manual for the new scope demoboard from Batronix.
Are they working for Batronix itself, or do they work for another company?
Do they work for a test & measurement company or are they working for an electronics manufacturer?
What is their background and industry experience?
I'll work through the examples over the next few weeks and report back
Then we can compare things between the siglent HD and the MX04..
Yeah ! :DQuoteI'll work through the examples over the next few weeks and report back
Then we can compare things between the siglent HD and the MX04..
I think I have an unfair advantage since the manual uses the MXO4 in most of its examples
I think I have an unfair advantage since the manual uses the MXO4 in most of its examples :)
I also thought about that. We forgive if you compensate us by comparing with one of "your own" boards. ;)
Oh yeah, it´s getting more and more better.. :-+
Damn you, Martin, you are typhoid Mary of demo boards...
Glad to see I'm not the only person who thinks this is going to be a lot of fun ....
Must try it again
If your oscilloscope supports it, you can also set the slope trigger to
"Outside" and set the time range to 140 μs to 180 μs and to rising and falling edges.
With this you should get all errors of this test signal triggered
Grrr now I have to wait for it to come while watching other kids play... :-DD
4) The noisy square wave to show the effect of averaging (2.7.1) is a nice demo. I did however increase the number of average above the recommended 16 to get a more dramatic "cleaning up" of the signal
Thank You Martin :palm:
This thread brought the wish back to life. Thank You Martin :palm:
Waiting for UPS...
I will report this thread so that Dave can close ASAP... >:(
There might be one small typo: in section 2.4.5 it says "Messen Sie das „SPI SCL“ Signal mit einem Tastkopf." (Measure the SPI SCL with a probe).
I think they meant I2C. The SPI pin is labeled "SCK" and is idling low. The I2C SCL signal is idling high looks exactly like the one in the manual.
Can you wildly guess what I just did? :palm:
I can't imagine that happening.
3.1.2 Protocol trigger
After you have set a decoder appropriately, you can also trigger on
Trigger data words and events.
Please carry out the following steps:
- Make settings according to 3.1
- Set Select 1 to "0" and Select 2 to "8".
- Set the trigger to "Serial" / "Decode" or "I²C
- Set the trigger to the ASCII character "B" or the hex code 42h.
- Start the running measurement (key Run)
- The triggering should now be set to the following cities or countries: "Berlin",
Bucharest", "Belgium", "Brussels" and "Budapest".
Try different decoder trigger conditions. You can also change the
conditions depending on the oscilloscope, and e.g. only trigger on a data word at a certain position.
a "joke"
Serial decodings:One wonders about user settings from where the H Pos maker is.
Did you get a "jitterfree" stable signal on your scope ?
Serial decodings:
Did you get a "jitterfree" stable signal on your scope ?
Would be nice ! :-+
Serial decodings:That can only be a result of trigger settings, if using a serial trigger then it's triggering on duplicate bits in a packet or successive packets carrying the same bit.
Did you get a "jitterfree" stable signal on your scope ?
Tried several trigger conditions today at work on a 2104X+, no chance..You're missing something.
No matter if 2 channel oder all 4, I can´t get the signal "calm".
Too dumb for I guess..
Then, back at home, I took the STB-3, connect it to the HD, setup...
...Rockstable triggering...What the heck... ???
Here's exercise 2.7.1 (cleaning up a noisy square wave using averaging) using a HAMEG HM407 scope and average count set to 16 :)
Nice too see this scope between all this high end equipment. I also own an old HM2008 Combiscope. I wonder how the demo board signals are looking on this... ::)
Then checking XY - something I never used before :-X ;)
For the bode plot the demo board got a lowpass and bandpass filter, I didn´t check if its an active one or passive.
(For siglent:
There´s no mode to run the plot once, right ? It´s in an endless-loop until you stop it.
And: It is faster than the HD, reacts faster and when you want to leave the mode, it stops almost immediately...)
Bode and XY on the siglent sds1104x-e...
Hi,Quote from: Me in my post beforeBode and XY on the siglent sds1104x-e...
Can you provide some more info on those demo boards that are not for sale? :)
Being able to see the two channels involved at the same time with the XY display I feel is an advantage.
This would be a nice feature update for my siglent scope. 8)
I got my board in yesterday, and I was thinking about trying it out next week. Then I remembered I only know a few words in German (some aren't even swears!). Maybe I'll google translate it with my phone lol.
This is way more stable than mine, I´ll make a short clip in the next days.
And: As I mentioned before, my siglent decode it correctly, you can see it best when in stop mode.
But it is not in violation of SPI protocol.
Decodes fine.
I have five new YouTube videos sitting in my post-production queue (including, of all things, "Getting Started with MXO Series Oscilloscopes - Triggering Fundamentals")
Arrived today, the printed manuals... 8)
good morning,
after I ordered the demo board I got an email asking if I wanted to recieve a printed copy.
I answerd with yes, please and now it is on its way, hopefully will be dilivered today.
Regards, Ronald
after I ordered the demo board I got an email asking if I wanted to recieve a printed copy.
Filtered/non-filtered output is interesting
You (batronix) should perhaps think again about not being able to offer the board permanently for under 200.
I find the board super, but whether I would have struck just as fast and without thinking, it would cost 240€...
You are further along than me, I had tried it and put it aside for later... 8)
I also found some leftover German in the English manuals. I haven't been paying a lot of attention, but this one stood out.
You might want to let Batronix know: they were extremely responsive about fixing a typo I found in the original German manual.
To get the 3.2 SPI interface test to work, I had to set the SS/CS channel CLK Timeout.
I also found some leftover German in the English manuals. I haven't been paying a lot of attention, but this one stood out.
To get the 3.2 SPI interface test to work, I had to set the SS/CS channel CLK Timeout.
Your screenshot looks like you have an error on channel 1 (Chip Select). The level should not drift away like that. Have you switched on the AC coupling on this channel or do you have a contact problem?
If the chip signal is detected correctly, it also works without a CLK timeout. The CS type "CLK timeout" can be used if the CS signal is not measured (e.g. because you have a 2-channel oscilloscope or do not want to use more than 2 channels for the SPI measurement).
Ordered mine this morning at breakfast. TEA is watching me... :-//
Your screenshot looks like you have an error on channel 1 (Chip Select). The level should not drift away like that. Have you switched on the AC coupling on this channel or do you have a contact problem?
If the chip signal is detected correctly, it also works without a CLK timeout. The CS type "CLK timeout" can be used if the CS signal is not measured (e.g. because you have a 2-channel oscilloscope or do not want to use more than 2 channels for the SPI measurement).
I have a dumb question.Turn Show Menu to ON. ;)
The traces in the photos in the manual are a lot prettier than the ones in the images I posted. Is that mostly because they're using a fancier scope, fancier probes, or both?
Turn Show Menu to ON. ;)
The traces in the photos in the manual are a lot prettier than the ones in the images I posted. Is that mostly because they're using a fancier scope, fancier probes, or both?
Almost all of the screenshot examples are from the R&S MXO4, and it's a very, very nice scope :)
The screenshots I make with my MXO4 are more or less identical to the Batronix manual. And I've been using junk probes for my experiments.
One difference may be that the Batronix examples have sample rate at 5 Gsa/s and your scope seems to show 2 Gsa/s.
I'm referring to how clean their lines are compared to mine in the attached example.The true reason for this is the vast difference in bandwidth. Close to 600 MHz bandwidth (SDS2504X Plus) show a lot more detail - hence "uglier" traces - than a 200 MHz scope. Whether the imperfections of the signal are interferences from the environment, bad probing or in the signal source itself is unknown at this point, but the fact that higher bandwidth reveals more (even unwanted) details remains.
Apart from that, a scope with 12 bit ADC (MXO4) will generally show nicer traces, as every user of the SDS2000X HD can attest ;)
The HF termination test (next step):
Your amplitude seems higher when comparing the pics.
Thanks Martin,Some tips if I may:
you point me to the right direction.
Now I was able to decode the I2C data.
Today the SPL1016 Probes arrive too, so I could now
do some logic signal examples with the new Batronix
training board.
Markus
One problem appear as I have powered the demo board from the internal DSO USB connector,You do have another USB A socket on the rear......maybe not if you have SDS1202X-E.
so that at the same time I was not able to plug in the USB stick to save the screen shot.
I was not keen to power the demo board from a external psu as in this case the ground
layer is connected to the DSO ground.
Perhaps a USB hub will be the proper solution for this problem.
Markus
In my experience, most people aren't aware of all the different ways of using XY mode.
Indeed, I didn't think about using X-Y mode to see IQ patterns. And happy to see that my basic SDS1204X-E does the job well on 256QAM. This makes nice screenshots, quite artistic. Thank you for your video and taking the time to explain.
I don´t think it has something to do with it.
But will repeat the test with fixed probe and with another probe from lecroy.
Your amplitude seems higher when comparing the pics.
Thanks to Martin72 for this expensive discovery (Laughs). ;)
FWIW, that’s a Texas Instruments reference design, seemingly completely unmodified. (The PMP numbers at bottom left are TI reference design IDs.) This board is PMP30595: https://www.ti.com/tool/PMP30595 (https://www.ti.com/tool/PMP30595)We have several versions but we don't sell them.Bad boy! Martin72 surely would buy one for his collection. :DAnd with the batronix board, my "collection" will grow up to two.
That´s enough. ;)
Once you start collecting R&S demo boards, there's no stopping :)
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cs7IjKtrD5x/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/Cs7IjKtrD5x/)
FWIW, that’s a Texas Instruments reference design, seemingly completely unmodified. (The PMP numbers at bottom left are TI reference design IDs.) This board is PMP30595: https://www.ti.com/tool/PMP30595 (https://www.ti.com/tool/PMP30595)
FWIW, that’s a Texas Instruments reference design, seemingly completely unmodified. (The PMP numbers at bottom left are TI reference design IDs.) This board is PMP30595: https://www.ti.com/tool/PMP30595 (https://www.ti.com/tool/PMP30595)
A demo board for power electronic would indeed be something else that could be tackled.
Be it for understanding purposes about switching power transmission or to test the now more and more popular power analysis functions of scopes.
TI’s library of reference designs is a smorgasbord of interesting things to build. Same for Analog Devices. :DFWIW, that’s a Texas Instruments reference design, seemingly completely unmodified. (The PMP numbers at bottom left are TI reference design IDs.) This board is PMP30595: https://www.ti.com/tool/PMP30595 (https://www.ti.com/tool/PMP30595)
Thanks. Darn it, looks like we have another project to build, eh @Martin72 😉
TI’s library of reference designs is a smorgasbord of interesting things to build. Same for Analog Devices. :D
Just test it on the SDS2104X+ from work (therefore the inverted pics), here we go:
1. According to the demo manual page 45 for CAN decoding set switch 1 to "0" and switch 2 to "A".
2. Activate "Digital" on your scope, then activate "Decode"
3. Set decode signal to CAN, source CAN_H at D07.
4. Set Baudrate to 20kbit/s
It´s just an example, you could also try LIN or Manchester, important to know is that if you want to decode something from the parallel bus, digital must be active otherwise you couldn´t select the digital channels in the decoder menu as a source.
And only the decoder section allows to display the values in ASCII.
That's right,
I overlooked that, a good hint.
I couldn't find ASCII here either, that would be something for the wish list.
Testing my new SPL2016 probes with the demoboard, it works..
(Function CAN decoding, 20kbit/s)
OEM is best and a good unit also used by several other brands and rebranded with their logo.Testing my new SPL2016 probes with the demoboard, it works..
(Function CAN decoding, 20kbit/s)
Is the SPL2016 at 279 euros a good value since I have the SDS2504X already (heh, 2104X + hack thanks to you guys)
Is there a better logic analyzer I could get for the same price range?DIY if you can be bothered or on a limited budget:
Thank you.Please advise purchase date as you may be eligible for the promotional discount on the option bundle SDS2XP-BND
Damnit, I was looking at the price when bought with the scope (which I already have). So it's 379, not 279. I don't think I will spend that much :(
Thank you.
Damnit, I was looking at the price when bought with the scope (which I already have). So it's 379, not 279. I don't think I will spend that much :(
And also fits the SDS3000X HD you lust for. ;)Thank you.
Damnit, I was looking at the price when bought with the scope (which I already have). So it's 379, not 279. I don't think I will spend that much :(
There's no reason why it's so damn expensive, but...
....The build quality is excellent.
My demands are not very high now, probably just RS-232, I2C, and I2S but I would not like to have to buy something else if I run into a limitation later.Unless you need to sample >2 analog channels at the same time as you capture/decode those protocols (or you need to capture/decode more than one ot two bus(es) at the same time) you don't really need the digital pod.
Thank you.Please advise purchase date as you may be eligible for the promotional discount on the option bundle SDS2XP-BND
Damnit, I was looking at the price when bought with the scope (which I already have). So it's 379, not 279. I don't think I will spend that much :(
See here:
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-74.html
Contact your supplier if you feel they should have offered you this bundle at time of purchase.
Or too late to miss an earlier promotion. :(Thank you.Please advise purchase date as you may be eligible for the promotional discount on the option bundle SDS2XP-BND
Damnit, I was looking at the price when bought with the scope (which I already have). So it's 379, not 279. I don't think I will spend that much :(
See here:
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-74.html
Contact your supplier if you feel they should have offered you this bundle at time of purchase.
Thank you!
June 30, 2021. I always thought I waited long enough to buy things. But now I see I bought too soon :(
Or too late to miss an earlier promotion. :(Thank you.Please advise purchase date as you may be eligible for the promotional discount on the option bundle SDS2XP-BND
Damnit, I was looking at the price when bought with the scope (which I already have). So it's 379, not 279. I don't think I will spend that much :(
See here:
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-74.html
Contact your supplier if you feel they should have offered you this bundle at time of purchase.
Thank you!
June 30, 2021. I always thought I waited long enough to buy things. But now I see I bought too soon :(
A while back there was a free BW upgrade plus option bundle for a great price also.
Further back SDS2104X Plus was on special for $999 but that was short-lived.
Looks like a DIY LA probe is now your best cheap option so go study that thread I linked. ;)
I paid a fair price for the scope, not much more than what you mentioned. I have all the licenses on my SDS2504X :D
It's too hard to get parts here, and I don't necessarily want a logic analyzer for the scope unless I can get it at a reasonable price.
Otherwise, it seems like a USB logic analyzer is more for the money. However, many choices in that space and also hard for us to buy from outside the EU now.
As H.O mentioned (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-scope-demoboard-from-batronix/msg5280238/#msg5280238), you don't need the LA probes to decode UART, I2C, or I2S. (or SPI for that matter)
lol, yeah, that's the same board. I bet they had Batronix change the secret message to picoscope instead. 🤣Or it came from another source entirely, configured to individual specs and rebranded accordingly.
Or it came from another source entirely, configured to individual specs and rebranded accordingly.
Should be some clues to origin in its code.
Martin has a close relationship with Batronix.....he should ask some questions.....Or it came from another source entirely, configured to individual specs and rebranded accordingly.
Should be some clues to origin in its code.
Fair point. Anybody wanna start placing bets?
Martin has a close relationship with Batronix...
What I find a pity about the demo board is that they couldn't keep the price below €200 in the long term.
In the beginning, at least a lot of people "here" ordered the board, which I thought was great, because we all have the same source here, so it's easier to understand the problems/measurement situations of other users.
A board as a reference, so to speak.
So please make the board more affordable again. 8)
We could also have called the coupon code "ThanksToMartin72", but that would certainly have confused some people. ;)
But when I look in my wallet, I don't see any of that. ;)
As this is a really great forum (and there are so many great people here) we have set up a coupon code.
With the coupon code "EEVblog" you can get the demo board in the Batronix online shop for the introductory price of 159 Euro + shipping + VAT again. The shipping costs + VAT are calculated by the online shop depending on the country of delivery.
We could also have called the coupon code "ThanksToMartin72", but that would certainly have confused some people. ;)
What I find a pity about the demo board is that they couldn't keep the price below €200 in the long term.
In the beginning, at least a lot of people "here" ordered the board, which I thought was great, because we all have the same source here, so it's easier to understand the problems/measurement situations of other users.
A board as a reference, so to speak.
So please make the board more affordable again. 8)
You're probably right. As this is a really great forum (and there are so many great people here) we have set up a coupon code.
With the coupon code "EEVblog" you can get the demo board in the Batronix online shop for the introductory price of 159 Euro + shipping + VAT again. The shipping costs + VAT are calculated by the online shop depending on the country of delivery.
We could also have called the coupon code "ThanksToMartin72", but that would certainly have confused some people. ;)
Working through the demo board manual
Working through the demo board manual ... thought I'd share these:
Interesting demo for using Channels 1 and 3, rather than 1 and 2, for better performance.
Here is the delay from TP1 to TP6 on the demo board.Cursors are bit outdated nowadays, especially in an analytical DSO. What about using the automatic FRFR measurement instead?
Martin, I am on page 48
Hi,2k HD gone to someone else already ?
100Mhz "untouched", loaned from work until new scope arrives.
Mainly responsible are two fast risetime logic gate ICs (tr<450ps), one IC is directly connected to the RF out BNC socket, so that you have a quite fast pulse at the start.
Nice...
First I was a little bit irritated - Another lecroy ? ;D
Second look, thank god a siglent..
With 4GSa/s... 8)
One will be in Martin's camp very soon. ;)Nice...
First I was a little bit irritated - Another lecroy ? ;D
Second look, thank god a siglent..
With 4GSa/s... 8)
I thought you might like it... :-DD
Shame his SDS2000X HD had to make way for it.
Still that would be a bit of coin tied up in 2 good scopes. :scared:QuoteShame his SDS2000X HD had to make way for it.
To be honest, it wouldn't have been necessary.
At first glance, but you can imagine why I did it after all in view of the upcoming 3000 models and their prices.
For others, this is the "Hf Test Track" section.Here is how it looks with the DHO804(924) and MSO5000. More "ringing" on MSO than DHO, though no undershoot before rise edge on both (similar to your Lecroy WR9054 pic).
Mainly responsible are two fast risetime logic gate ICs (tr<450ps), one IC is directly connected to the RF out BNC socket, so that you have a quite fast pulse at the start.
The signal also looks pretty clean.
This makes me wonder what folks do when they have no idea what kind of a glitch or anomaly they are looking for. Do they use single sweep repeatedly until they spot something and then zoom/expand to investigate and go from there to set up an appropriate trigger?
More Batronix board learning via mostly trial and error. This is with SW1 set to C which selects a 10 kHz sine with peaks after X periods. Using channel 1 for pulse triggering is straightforward. Using channel 2 is more finicky.
This makes me wonder what folks do when they have no idea what kind of a glitch or anomaly they are looking for. Do they use single sweep repeatedly until they spot something and then zoom/expand to investigate and go from there to set up an appropriate trigger?
More Batronix board learning via mostly trial and error. This is with SW1 set to C which selects a 10 kHz sine with peaks after X periods. Using channel 1 for pulse triggering is straightforward. Using channel 2 is more finicky.A Pulse trigger will find this when set correctly.
This makes me wonder what folks do when they have no idea what kind of a glitch or anomaly they are looking for. Do they use single sweep repeatedly until they spot something and then zoom/expand to investigate and go from there to set up an appropriate trigger?
A Pulse trigger will find this when set correctly.
This makes me wonder what folks do when they have no idea what kind of a glitch or anomaly they are looking for. Do they use single sweep repeatedly until they spot something and then zoom/expand to investigate and go from there to set up an appropriate trigger?That's the beauty of a History that's always running silently in the background: You need not sit and wait for something unusual to happen, you just work as usual. Whenever you notice something unusual in the corner of your eye, you just hit the Stop button. Then you can browse the History (either play it back at any arbitrary speed or go through it frame by frame) until you find the suspicious record.
This makes me wonder what folks do when they have no idea what kind of a glitch or anomaly they are looking for. Do they use single sweep repeatedly until they spot something and then zoom/expand to investigate and go from there to set up an appropriate trigger?
This makes me wonder what folks do when they have no idea what kind of a glitch or anomaly they are looking for. Do they use single sweep repeatedly until they spot something and then zoom/expand to investigate and go from there to set up an appropriate trigger?
Depends on the anomaly :) Many (most?) scopes have a glitch, runt, or width trigger for finding pulses that are the "wrong" level or duration. There are also timeout triggers for when signals get "stuck" at a certain level, and masks or zone triggers are also useful for finding signals that diverge too far from expected values.
I have a video that talks about the different trigger types (and how they are implemented on one of our oscilloscopes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG3CP8vCNyY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG3CP8vCNyY)
(Note that he Batronix demo board manual actually uses this scope - the MXO - for most of their examples)
Is there a kind of flowchart that, based on a description of the signal characteristics, gives you a step-by-step procedure for selecting and setting up a trigger(type)?
For instance, I have a 100kHz ramp signal with an anomaly: once in a while (not constant), the signal goes away for some time and starts again. I would like to know the "blackout" period.
What are the steps to set up the scope and answer my question?
Persistence ON and OFF.
So with good analytical tools, it is not about staring into the screen waiting for something to happen. It is about configuring the scope to do the hunting for you, and automating tedious work.True, but also the other considerations (just to be fair):
And then having an insight that this, this and this parameter seems to be "wondering around" you can tailor triggers to catch it "red handed" and try to correlate anomaly with other parts of the system to try and catch what causes it.
Advantage of this approach is that you quickly start not only to know "something" is wrong, but you start to analyze, understand and quantify signal qualities from the start.
So with good analytical tools, it is not about staring into the screen waiting for something to happen. It is about configuring the scope to do the hunting for you, and automating tedious work.True, but also the other considerations (just to be fair):
And then having an insight that this, this and this parameter seems to be "wondering around" you can tailor triggers to catch it "red handed" and try to correlate anomaly with other parts of the system to try and catch what causes it.
Advantage of this approach is that you quickly start not only to know "something" is wrong, but you start to analyze, understand and quantify signal qualities from the start.
- It's virtually impossible to construct a trigger that will catch every particular event in the real application case;
- One can give many examples when all the advanced capabilities are absolutely necessary, but other one can give at least equal number of examples when all that wonders are entirely optional;
- The instrument that I don't know is useless for me. So more overhead by the learning curve, which does not depend on application;
- The cost of really advanced instrument can be really high. No way to afford it without having a lot of associated obligations. Imagine a young graduate who is deeply indebted by tuition fees, certification, licensing, etc., so he have to pay his debt during all his career. Not a slavery, but servitude seems a correct word. A modern method for causing an individual to work hard;
- In general, reliance on an advanced tool that you can't DIY weakens you because that increases your dependency on a service provided by other people.
I understood njk to mainly say that there still is value in looking at the waveform (with the help of persistence, color grading etc.).
And I tend to agree; it is often the fastest way to get a first idea of what's wrong. Let's stick with the sine wave example from the demo board: If you didn't know whether it suffers from spikes or dropouts (at whichever levels), or maybe from sporadic phase jitter, I would argue that you can spend a lot of time thinking about the right set of measurements and histograms which will catch and discriminate the various types of potential glitches. While visually most of them will be very easy to make out -- maybe with the help of peak detection to get very short spikes.
Those devices are called oscilloscopes for a reason -- in addition to all the analytics, they are pretty handy for looking at wiggly lines. ;)
Well of course you are looking at the screen. For sure you're not looking into your belly button....
Well of course you are looking at the screen. For sure you're not looking into your belly button....
Dagnabbit! Why do I keep making that mistake?! 🤦🤦🤦
My point was that no matter how many triggers are implemented, a waveform will come sooner or later that can't be captured as desired using any available trigger. And it's quite an accomplishment for average user to memorize hundreds of different triggers. So I wonder if any scope allows for user to define his own trigger through some kind of scripting. There must be something like that because it seems too obvious. Adjustable zone boundaries and loadable masks are nice features but that's not what I'm asking about.
My point was that no matter how many triggers are implemented, a waveform will come sooner or later that can't be captured as desired using any available trigger. And it's quite an accomplishment for average user to memorize hundreds of different triggers. So I wonder if any scope allows for user to define his own trigger through some kind of scripting. There must be something like that because it seems too obvious. Adjustable zone boundaries and loadable masks are nice features but that's not what I'm asking about.Sorry but :blah:
And yes, I never been a big fan of a top-notch instruments. Too much instrumentation requirements can inflate the budget that can effectively prevent the project from start. And worse, provision of an instrument that is ten times expensive usually implies the provider's expectation that I'll do my job ten times faster. Of course, it's not so simple but the elements of social engineering are always there.
Is there a kind of flowchart that, based on a description of the signal characteristics, gives you a step-by-step procedure for selecting and setting up a trigger(type)?
For instance, I have a 100kHz ramp signal with an anomaly: once in a while (not constant), the signal goes away for some time and starts again. I would like to know the "blackout" period.
What are the steps to set up the scope and answer my question?
Sounds like a timeout trigger: the scope should be configured to trigger when the signal level is < X volts for more than Y seconds. Assuming that the time/div is set properly, you should be able to acquire the entire "blackout" period and measure the time using markers. Since the scope will trigger when the ramp resumes, you might also want to apply a trigger offset so that the ramp restart is near the right edge of the screen.
If you have (or would like to see this on) a R&S MXO oscilloscope, I'd be happy to set it up and post a short video.
(There are other ways of doing this, but that's the first that comes to mind).
My point was that no matter how many triggers are implemented, a waveform will come sooner or later that can't be captured as desired using any available trigger. And it's quite an accomplishment for average user to memorize hundreds of different triggers. So I wonder if any scope allows for user to define his own trigger through some kind of scripting. There must be something like that because it seems too obvious. Adjustable zone boundaries and loadable masks are nice features but that's not what I'm asking about.
Modern oscilloscopes are pretty flexible when it comes to triggering (although I'm not aware of any scope that has "hundreds" of trigger types :)), so it might be helpful if you could provide an example of a waveform that you think would be difficult or impossible to trigger on.
I'm not aware of any "scripting" for triggers, but on some of our scopes we do allow the user to trigger on a sequence of events:
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/MXO4_HTML_UserManual_en/Content/66d463be244c466b.htm (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/MXO4_HTML_UserManual_en/Content/66d463be244c466b.htm)
Something like this would probably never be complete and several experts from different application areas could contribute to the tipps & tricks ("Art of Triggering") section.
The manuals nowadays describe the trigger itself (e.g. for the SDS800X: Interval Trigger: Trigger when the time difference between the neighbouring rising or falling edges meets the time limit
condition) but not when to use it.
After this post, my mind wandered away. Wouldn't it be nice to have a trigger trilogy (either in book, PDF or video like in the MXO5):
- Trigger 101: describing the real basics (trigger type, trigger mode, trigger level, when to use both rising and falling edge triggering, interplay with holdoff, etc.)
- Trigger SPY: a procedural approach to triggering based on a real-world question, as I indicated as an example, and some more high level: do we just capture data, trigger later (because the new scopes are so good at it) or does it pay off to think a bit more of the problem and use a trigger and then do a further analysis. A bit like the opening discussion in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTEvYE3kdFA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTEvYE3kdFA)- The art of triggering: the wisdom of the masters in all detail (like in your answer, or maybe there are more clever solutions like filtering the initial 100kHz away) centred around the signal+question at hand.
I like this demo board, and I'm learning a lot about features I haven't explored much.
But when I got to step 3.5, to test the MSO parallel bus interface with my Siglent SDS2000X+, the scope seems to be lacking in capabilities.
If I'm understanding it correctly, the Siglent "decodes" parallel signals in the digital menu instead of the decode menu where it can decode serial signals.
And there is no option to see the decoded ASCII value:
(Attachment Link)
Converting the hex shown here, "42 61 74 72 6f 6e 69 78", to ASCII using any online converter produces the text "Batronix".
So it seems like an incredibly simple operation to do. Am I missing something perhaps?
I'm late to the party on this but here is another vote for adding ASCII decodes to parallel signal decoding in case anyone is reporting the vote count to Siglent in an effort to get Siglent to add this feature, or in case Siglent is listening directly to forum input. :) Thx
Where is parallel ASCII transmission still being used? Sounds very Centronics to me. :)
My point was that no matter how many triggers are implemented, a waveform will come sooner or later that can't be captured as desired using any available trigger. And it's quite an accomplishment for average user to memorize hundreds of different triggers. So I wonder if any scope allows for user to define his own trigger through some kind of scripting. There must be something like that because it seems too obvious. Adjustable zone boundaries and loadable masks are nice features but that's not what I'm asking about.
Modern oscilloscopes are pretty flexible when it comes to triggering (although I'm not aware of any scope that has "hundreds" of trigger types :)), so it might be helpful if you could provide an example of a waveform that you think would be difficult or impossible to trigger on.
I'm not aware of any "scripting" for triggers, but on some of our scopes we do allow the user to trigger on a sequence of events:
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/MXO4_HTML_UserManual_en/Content/66d463be244c466b.htm (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/MXO4_HTML_UserManual_en/Content/66d463be244c466b.htm)
Agree.
Siglent also have logic triggers, qualified triggers, zone triggering (where we take any trigger and enhance it with go/no go zones).
All of these advanced trigger types (except zone that starts with SDS2000X+/XHD series) are present even in cheapest SDS800.
And add on protocol triggers on top of that.
And all of it is maybe 10 pages to read... Hardly more work than learning scripting language.
I have no problems triggering on something specific with scopes I have (Keysight, several 12 bit Siglents and several Picos) provided I know what to look for.
On Picoscopes I miss protocol triggers though.
As I said, if you are trying to verify clock for instance, you can simply use mask mode (because signal is very simple and repetitive) and just let it run. If you have no violation in some time (you decide what certainty you need, so it might be few hours or few days..) you are good.
But if scope has good measurements and statistics, even without Jitter/Eye packages, you can gather statistics on timing parameters, overshoot, risetimes, Cycle to Cycle jitter... And have a look at histograms to see how it behaves... And today you have that even with SDS800xHD ...
My point was that no matter how many triggers are implemented, a waveform will come sooner or later that can't be captured as desired using any available trigger. And it's quite an accomplishment for average user to memorize hundreds of different triggers. So I wonder if any scope allows for user to define his own trigger through some kind of scripting. There must be something like that because it seems too obvious. Adjustable zone boundaries and loadable masks are nice features but that's not what I'm asking about.
Modern oscilloscopes are pretty flexible when it comes to triggering (although I'm not aware of any scope that has "hundreds" of trigger types :)), so it might be helpful if you could provide an example of a waveform that you think would be difficult or impossible to trigger on.
I'm not aware of any "scripting" for triggers, but on some of our scopes we do allow the user to trigger on a sequence of events:
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/MXO4_HTML_UserManual_en/Content/66d463be244c466b.htm (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/MXO4_HTML_UserManual_en/Content/66d463be244c466b.htm)
Agree.
Siglent also have logic triggers, qualified triggers, zone triggering (where we take any trigger and enhance it with go/no go zones).
All of these advanced trigger types (except zone that starts with SDS2000X+/XHD series) are present even in cheapest SDS800.
And add on protocol triggers on top of that.
And all of it is maybe 10 pages to read... Hardly more work than learning scripting language.
I have no problems triggering on something specific with scopes I have (Keysight, several 12 bit Siglents and several Picos) provided I know what to look for.
On Picoscopes I miss protocol triggers though.
As I said, if you are trying to verify clock for instance, you can simply use mask mode (because signal is very simple and repetitive) and just let it run. If you have no violation in some time (you decide what certainty you need, so it might be few hours or few days..) you are good.
But if scope has good measurements and statistics, even without Jitter/Eye packages, you can gather statistics on timing parameters, overshoot, risetimes, Cycle to Cycle jitter... And have a look at histograms to see how it behaves... And today you have that even with SDS800xHD ...
2N3055, can you tell us more about what keeps Jitter/Eye capabilities from being offered on lower/'midrange model scopes? Is it a fundamental assumption that lower bandwidth scopes don't need/justify Jitter/Eye capabilities, or is it the cost to implement, or something else? Thx
Where is parallel ASCII transmission still being used? Sounds very Centronics to me. :)Not sure where it's still being used (other than GPIB), but some people find repairing, restoring or exploring old stuff fun, as well as building new stuff with older technology, like following Ben Eaters videos :)
@Elekctro Fan:
Perhaps post with reference to this thread in a thread that siglent is more likely to know.
(I think we did that back then too, I'd have to look.)
Not sure where it's still being used (other than GPIB), but some people find repairing, restoring or exploring old stuff fun, as well as building new stuff with older technology, like following Ben Eaters videos :)
It didn't cross my mind that the feature would be missing when buying the probes and licenses for using the digital channels.
Not sure where it's still being used (other than GPIB), but some people find repairing, restoring or exploring old stuff fun, as well as building new stuff with older technology, like following Ben Eaters videos :)
It didn't cross my mind that the feature would be missing when buying the probes and licenses for using the digital channels.
If you are into that generation of technology (I am too!), you are fully expected to know all ASCII hex codes by heart. :P
This thread is about a demo board, so you use it for demonstration purposes, among other things.
People who are less involved in the ASCII table, i.e. anyone under 40 ;) , might be more likely to understand an ASCII decoding of the Batronix lettering or the joke/countries in parallel decoding.
Hence the request for a corresponding extension to the Siglent scopes, in the appropriate threads.
we are now asking Siglent to add a decoder option so we can run the demo nicely?Not really though. Siglent has already implemented the decoder for parallel signals. The hard part is getting the binary value from the signal, which works today. After that, you decide how to display the result to the user. Display as the original binary value, or something more humanly readable, like hex or ascii.
Not sure where it's still being used (other than GPIB), but some people find repairing, restoring or exploring old stuff fun, as well as building new stuff with older technology, like following Ben Eaters videos :)
It didn't cross my mind that the feature would be missing when buying the probes and licenses for using the digital channels.
If you are into that generation of technology (I am too!), you are fully expected to know all ASCII hex codes by heart. :P
we are now asking Siglent to add a decoder option so we can run the demo nicely?Not really though. Siglent has already implemented the decoder for parallel signals. The hard part is getting the binary value from the signal, which works today. After that, you decide how to display the result to the user. Display as the original binary value, or something more humanly readable, like hex or ascii.
And the functionality to convert binary to ascii is already implemented for serial signals. So all the pieces are there already, we are just asking Siglent to add the required glue and menu element so we can use it. A demo board like this is just the first place many will experience this lacking feature, before venturing into real projects.
we are now asking Siglent to add a decoder option so we can run the demo nicely?Not really though. Siglent has already implemented the decoder for parallel signals. The hard part is getting the binary value from the signal, which works today. After that, you decide how to display the result to the user. Display as the original binary value, or something more humanly readable, like hex or ascii.
And the functionality to convert binary to ascii is already implemented for serial signals. So all the pieces are there already, we are just asking Siglent to add the required glue and menu element so we can use it. A demo board like this is just the first place many will experience this lacking feature, before venturing into real projects.
Finding the solution is not pushing button number 5 to get into the menue, but to find out and to learn. I sometimes like to run into a problem and then to search for the solution (including frustrating failures...), because it helps venturing future projects.I agree that learning is valuable, but optional automation wont stop anyone from learning if they want, and at the same time it speeds up the task for those who already know or don't care.
I don't see anyone advocating to remove features here, including the removal of ascii support for serial signals. Or is that what is happening?
For example, how about enabling pattern "trigger" for the Search function? That would enable us to capture and decode a long data sequence from a parallel bus including its handhake signals, then look for particular situations (patterns) on those lines and highlight them via search markers.Well you would learn much more by not having this feature I think :)
For example, how about enabling pattern "trigger" for the Search function? That would enable us to capture and decode a long data sequence from a parallel bus including its handhake signals, then look for particular situations (patterns) on those lines and highlight them via search markers.Well you would learn much more by not having this feature I think :)
Discussing the sense or not of a possible feature for siglent scopes would make more sense in one of the siglent feature threads.
It is faster than that...
Estimate cca. 270-280ps ...
Measuring 480ps on scope with 400ps risetime. 500ps on scope with with 420ps risetime and 521ps on one with 440ps risetime..
Used good quality 200mm cable.
Nice!
I was already thinking about designing the part with the logic gates as an external signal shaper, you have shown nicely that it is possible in principle.
There are a few people here in the forum who have one - I think that's good, because then you can compare measurements because everyone has the same denominator.
I would like to have an update with signals that can emphasize the difference between 8 bit and 12 bit and maybe a few more decoders.
Is there any CHEAP demoboard out there? ::)
Is there any CHEAP demoboard out there? ::)
If I remember correctly, the EEVBlog discount is still valid
Make one! That should only cost 5 times as much. 😉
Make one! That should only cost 5 times as much. 😉
We (R&S) have designed and built two scope demo boards during the last 10-15 years. I can assure you that they are not cheap to design or manufacture.