New Siglent 2104X Plus -A Mistake?

[Ray CI]

Folks,

Last week, I took possession of a new Siglent 2104 X Plus scope.  In the first 15 minutes of use, I was struggling to get the unit configured on the LAN and could not get the clock/date/timezone to maintain the configuration.  When DHCP is enabled for LAN configuration, the unit randomly responds to ping but usually times-out or experiences 50% packet loss.   Also, when I save a setup file with various channel configurations, the scope does not fully restore all settings.  Same thing happens when the unit is powered off/on.

These problems do not instill in me a sense of confidence.  I've got the sinking feeling I just made a big financial mistake.

Curious... Are these problems common with Siglent scopes?  Do the Rigol units have the same issues?

Regards

Ray

PS:  There is nothing wrong with the LAN or configuration settings.  -Just trust me on this.

[bdunham7]

Does everything work normally except for your LAN issues?  It doesn't really sound like it--the RTC should keep your date/time/etc information through power cycles and the scope should remember the way it was set up before powering down.  Are you using the soft-power-off to shut it down?  Are you disconnecting mains power when you shut it off?

[BillyO]

I've not had any problem with mine, but I'm using a static IP address.  Not sure if that will help but it's probably worth a try.

[Martin72]

Why not using the big, big siglent 2k+ thread...

[Old Printer]

I wrestled with mine a bit when I first got it, an SDS1104X-E. It's been a few years and I don't recall the details, but Tautech quickly helped me get it sorted. I am sure he will be along shortly. I would buy another Siglent just because of his knowledgeable help. I think you will find it a good investment once you get it sorted.

[KungFuJosh]

No issues like that with mine. I'd suggest updating to the latest firmware and trying with a static IP.

[Ray CI]

Well folks, I'm not sure what's happening now but I can say the vendor/distributor (Saelig, Fairport NY) has done their best to help.  The latest software upgrade did not help.  I've identified a few problems and sent all info to the Siglent USA support group a few days ago.  Through email, they responded and asked the expected types of questions but have not communicated since.

For those wishing to know, the unit is a few days old and hasn't been used yet.  In the process of narrowing the three issues down, I've done soft, hard and mains resets.  Yes, IP comms work if a static IP address is used but, there are other problems happening too. The problems could be software/firmware but, could also be symptomatic of bad flash memory.  From the vendor, I have about 2 weeks to bail-out on the purchase so, I'm sitting tight until I hear something from tech support.

Ray

[bdunham7]

It might help--and you may get a quicker response--if you give a detailed description of your issues here, especially any that don't have anything to do the the LAN if there are any.  You mentioned date/time/configuration.  So turn it on, set the date/time and set it up in a way you'll recognize--say all 4 channels on a 1V/div and 50ns/div or whatever.  Then shut it down, give it 10 seconds and disconnect the power for a minute.  Power it back up and see what you have.  If you lose the date/time/configuration when you do that, then I don't think there's any firmware or the like that is going to help.

[Ray CI]

It might help--and you may get a quicker response--if you give a detailed description of your issues here, especially any that don't have anything to do the the LAN if there are any.  You mentioned date/time/configuration.  So turn it on, set the date/time and set it up in a way you'll recognize--say all 4 channels on a 1V/div and 50ns/div or whatever.  Then shut it down, give it 10 seconds and disconnect the power for a minute.  Power it back up and see what you have.  If you lose the date/time/configuration when you do that, then I don't think there's any firmware or the like that is going to help.

I was trying not to get into the gory details since I don't want to come off as bad-mouthing the scope.  This is my first Siglent product and just wanted to know if they're known for issues like this.   I'm really trying to like this scope but, it feels like I just bought a brand new car with an engine that makes a terrible ticking sound...

Be assured, there is nothing wrong with the LAN (famous last words but, please trust me on this).  The issue has been replicated on two (actually three) totally different LAN environments.

1)  Only Static IP addresses and LAN configs work.  DCHP is a no-go with intermittent 50 to 100% packet loss.
2)  The timezone keeps resetting to UTC if the unit is powered-off via menu or warm-switch.
3)  The LXI LAN Reset option does not do a HW reset on the phy port (never drops carrier) as I would expect; instead, it set the flags in the LAN configuration for "Auto DHCP" back to enabled status.
4)  After saving a configuration (timebase, some channel configs etc) then, doing a power-down followed by restoring the configuration, some of the screen characteristics are not restored.  e.g. Beep-sounds, menu auto-hide and some channels that were enabled are no longer enabled.
5)  Also (this is probably not a bug/issue) the Ethernet port only negotiates to 100Mbps.  I know of no product since the early 2000's that came with 100bT. 

Simple signals from a generator looked OK but, when basic, ground-zero stuff was not working, I held-off on going any deeper.

(I did firmware development for both medical devices and high-speed networking equipment for the 1st couple decades of my career.  The first 15 minutes with this scope was like a flashback to Windows 3.0).

Ray

[tautech]

New from box SDS2354X Plus > first boot. FW 1.5.2R2

Set time and zone > press OK


LAN > select Automatic > press OK < enables DCHP and autofills LAN parameters.

Edit to add.
IP automatically selected may possibly conflict with another device at a later date when the scope is booted so it's wise to set it higher into some bracket where only your test equipment operates, say 200 - 220.

[bdunham7]

1)  Only Static IP addresses and LAN configs work.  DCHP is a no-go with intermittent 50 to 100% packet loss.
2)  The timezone keeps resetting to UTC if the unit is powered-off via menu or warm-switch.
3)  The LXI LAN Reset option does not do a HW reset on the phy port (never drops carrier) as I would expect; instead, it set the flags in the LAN configuration for "Auto DHCP" back to enabled status.
4)  After saving a configuration (timebase, some channel configs etc) then, doing a power-down followed by restoring the configuration, some of the screen characteristics are not restored.  e.g. Beep-sounds, menu auto-hide and some channels that were enabled are no longer enabled.
5)  Also (this is probably not a bug/issue) the Ethernet port only negotiates to 100Mbps.  I know of no product since the early 2000's that came with 100bT. 

No need to withhold fact-based criticism.  I have an older version, Hardware 02-04, Uboot-OS 5.0 and Software 1.3.9R6.  Here's what mine does:

1) DHCP gets me an appropriate address and I can use all the instrument controls normally.  I can ping that address all day long and never lose a packet.
2) My version does not have time zones.  The RTC saves the time just fine through power cycles, although it isn't very accurate.  It would be nice if it used NTP like the SDS1104X-E, which despite not having an RTC actually seems to work better once you set it up and install a wi-fi dongle.
3) My version does not have LXI.  I couldn't find any equivalent command in SCPI to reset the LAN.
4) Apparently not all settings are saved this way--I turned off sound and then saved and recalled a setup and sounds were enabled.  However, a soft-off plus power disconnect then restarting preserves sound, auto-hide and channel settings--all without any need for a saved config file.  If your's doesn't do this, it is failing at a basic function IMO.
5) I'm not sure I agree that everything has had 1GbT for two decades....perhaps I'm behind the times but I still have two pretty nice routers that don't do a gig. 

Yours sounds broken-ish, and perhaps someone with the latest version and hardware can do the same set of tests to see if yours is broken or they all are broken.  Siglent is not beyond criticism here.  I like my SDS2354X+ well enough and it was a relative bargain, but there are some annoying shortcomings (ERES/AVG vs math channels and the lack of wifi) made all the more annoying because the $500 SDS1104X-E gets them right.  If they've added in all the bugs you are experiencing, then they have some work to do.

[Martin72]

We have several 2104X+ from 2022 and 2023, maybe I could do some (but not all) tests for confirming.

5)  Also (this is probably not a bug/issue) the Ethernet port only negotiates to 100Mbps.  I know of no product since the early 2000's that came with 100bT.

What do you want to transfer from a scope with 1Gbps ?

[2N3055]

1)  Only Static IP addresses and LAN configs work.  DCHP is a no-go with intermittent 50 to 100% packet loss.
2)  The timezone keeps resetting to UTC if the unit is powered-off via menu or warm-switch.
3)  The LXI LAN Reset option does not do a HW reset on the phy port (never drops carrier) as I would expect; instead, it set the flags in the LAN configuration for "Auto DHCP" back to enabled status.
4)  After saving a configuration (timebase, some channel configs etc) then, doing a power-down followed by restoring the configuration, some of the screen characteristics are not restored.  e.g. Beep-sounds, menu auto-hide and some channels that were enabled are no longer enabled.
5)  Also (this is probably not a bug/issue) the Ethernet port only negotiates to 100Mbps.  I know of no product since the early 2000's that came with 100bT. 

My few comments:

1. DHCP has NOTHING to do with packet loss. Only way you can get packet loss because of DHCP is if DHCP server is handing out duplicate leases (same IP address to more than one device). I would look into this aspect... Also you might have problems with switch not properly negotiating duplex/speed.
2. There were some reports on early FW that if you shutdown scope aggressively fast after configuration changes, that scope might have not saved all the data to storage.. Give it 30 something seconds before commencing shutdown to verify you don't have something like that..
3. LXI LAN reset does TCP/IP stack reload. Nowhere it is stated it will hardware reset PHY controller. But hey, maybe not a bad idea...
4. See number 2.
5. There are many (much more expensive) scopes out there that have only 100Mbit Ethernet. You know why? Because on majority of embedded scopes (not PC based) there is no computing power to push much data to Ethernet. Fact that you don't something, doesn't make you expectations realistic, sorry.. Would I like to get same performance as high end performance scope that cost 20000USD from a 1000USD scope? Of course, that would be swell, thank you. But, not gonna happen, sorry...

And yes, what FW are you running? We need that info to have a chance to help you..

One thing is sure, you need to verify if your scope is really not working as expected. Problems that you see are not normal, so it is either something wrong with how you use it (I'm not saying it is, just enumerating possibility) or that particular one you got is broken.
If it is broken just ask for replacement one. In which case, these are not some "problems with model or brand", but an a damaged single specimen then. That happens. If it is a systemic problem manufacturer would be the first one that would like to know..

Best,

[Ray CI]

No need to withhold fact-based criticism.  I have an older version, Hardware 02-04, Uboot-OS 5.0 and Software 1.3.9R6.  Here's what mine does:

1) DHCP gets me an appropriate address and I can use all the instrument controls normally.  I can ping that address all day long and never lose a packet.
2) My version does not have time zones.  The RTC saves the time just fine through power cycles, although it isn't very accurate.  It would be nice if it used NTP like the SDS1104X-E, which despite not having an RTC actually seems to work better once you set it up and install a wi-fi dongle.
3) My version does not have LXI.  I couldn't find any equivalent command in SCPI to reset the LAN.
4) Apparently not all settings are saved this way--I turned off sound and then saved and recalled a setup and sounds were enabled.  However, a soft-off plus power disconnect then restarting preserves sound, auto-hide and channel settings--all without any need for a saved config file.  If your's doesn't do this, it is failing at a basic function IMO.
5) I'm not sure I agree that everything has had 1GbT for two decades....perhaps I'm behind the times but I still have two pretty nice routers that don't do a gig. 

Yours sounds broken-ish, and perhaps someone with the latest version and hardware can do the same set of tests to see if yours is broken or they all are broken.  Siglent is not beyond criticism here.  I like my SDS2354X+ well enough and it was a relative bargain, but there are some annoying shortcomings (ERES/AVG vs math channels and the lack of wifi) made all the more annoying because the $500 SDS1104X-E gets them right.  If they've added in all the bugs you are experiencing, then they have some work to do.

Is your Icon photo a cat, dog or a space alien?  LOL...

Much thanks for background sanity check.  Much appreciated!

RE:  100Mbps / 100bT...    Having written a few dozen Ethernet device drivers over the past 38 years of employment, I can say with great certainty, it's best to have all phy's connect at the highest rate possible even though there's no need to transfer at that rate.  I would have no expectation of doing bulk transfer to an oscilloscope.   The general consensus is to let the wire run as fast as it can and let the window protocol set the pace.   W/O getting into details, having a slow/pokey phy on a switch is akin to plugging a USB1.0 device into a USB3.0 hub...  It creates a bottleneck.   In the case of an Ethernet Phy, the differences are not noticeable to the user in terms of transfer speeds but, it makes a difference to the protocols running inside the switch (aka, spanning tree, arp -and many other internal housekeeping protocols pertaining to counters and netmgt statistics).

Like I said, it might not be a bug in this case and I don't give a darn if it really is a 100bT phy.  It just struck me as odd that in 2023, products are still shipping w/ 100bT.

Ray

[BillyO]

Would I like to get same performance as high end performance scope that cost 20000USD from a 1000USD scope? https://www.amazon.ca/Pyramid-Bench-Power-Supply-Converter/dp/B07KMLNLWQ

Wait a few years.  What's available on today's $20,000 scope will be on tomorrows $1,000 scope.

To the OP:  Can you post your hardware version and your firmware version?

Also, I would respectfully suggest that there is nothing you could possibly need to do, or could do with that scope that would need more than 100Mb Ethernet.  Putting it in would have added totally un-nesseccary expense. Jus' say'n.

[tautech]

It just struck me as odd that in 2023, products are still shipping w/ 100bT.

https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/22_09_19/SDS2000X%20Plus_Datasheet_EN01C.pdf

[Ray CI]

It just struck me as odd that in 2023, products are still shipping w/ 100bT.

https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/22_09_19/SDS2000X%20Plus_Datasheet_EN01C.pdf

Indeed, there's a typo in the spec sheet.  Page 9 says it's a 10/10 (aka 10Mbps full duplex) interface.  In fact, it's a 100 Mbps interface because that's what the switch (and wireshark) show it as.

BTW, this issue of LAN speed is the least of my concerns in the overall picture here...


Ray

[J-R]

10/100 is still common, typically for low-power, "simple" devices.  1G devices that use wake-on-LAN will negotiate to 100M when asleep.

Packet loss when using DHCP is a classic result of having two devices with the same IP, although not always.  There are various ways to test this such as checking your ARP table, but my suggestion would be to go ahead and set up a DHCP reservation for that MAC address.  Then you can switch from static IP to DHCP as you wish without another device getting the same IP.  Pick a guaranteed known-free IP when creating the reservation.

It is remotely possible there is a fault in the network stack involving the DHCP process where it is misbehaving.  Once you have received an IP from the DHCP server, there is still traffic that continues in the background every so often, such as for renewing the lease before it expires.  Seems like a stretch, though.

[Ray CI]

Folks,

Be apprised that I deleted my post that had an image of my system information.  -Probably not a good idea to post my serial number and scope ID.   Here is the text of the post I deleted.   Thanks for understanding...

Would I like to get same performance as high end performance scope that cost 20000USD from a 1000USD scope? https://www.amazon.ca/Pyramid-Bench-Power-Supply-Converter/dp/B07KMLNLWQ

Wait a few years.  What's available on today's $20,000 scope will be on tomorrows $1,000 scope.

To the OP:  Can you post your hardware version and your firmware version?

Also, I would respectfully suggest that there is nothing you could possibly need to do, or could do with that scope that would need more than 100Mb Ethernet.  Putting it in would have added totally un-nesseccary expense. Jus' say'n.

Ain't that the truth.  This scope is replacing my trusty Tek2245  that I've had since Thomas Edison invented the light bulb.  RIP 2245.  I don't need a scope that much but, in my retirement I've been doing some benchwork and wanted a replacement.  Initially, I purchased a 150Mhz 2 channel Hantek, thinking it would be adequate to suite my basic needs -NOT!   I tolerated it for 2 months then, bought this Siglent.  I must say, in-theory, the Hantek covers all the bases.  It just had a nasty habit of randomly freezing and/or displaying waveforms that didn't really exist at the tip of the probe.   Perhaps you can now understand why I'm gun-shy about oscilloscopes that don't work...

Here's the config (now edited).  FWIW, the tech support person at Saelig stayed on the phone with me while I walked thru the issues and upgraded the scope with the latest version.  He's stumped too.

Ray

[Ray CI]

All,

When the problems with the scope were first reported, the Siglent support group was responding and asking questions.  Now, it's been several days and a few emails have gone unanswered.   Hmmm, looks like this unit is going back to the vendor.

Ray

[nctnico]

Did you try different ethernet cable / switch ports? 99% of network problems are due to crappy cables / bad connections.

[bingo600]

All,

When the problems with the scope were first reported, the Siglent support group was responding and asking questions.  Now, it's been several days and a few emails have gone unanswered.   Hmmm, looks like this unit is going back to the vendor.

Ray

I would agree ... Return it within time , and note the serial#.
Especially now when "support" has gone quiet.

I have the same model that i love , and it has no issues..
Well it did forget to renew DHCP , but siglent fixed that in next FW release.

I would still recommend it , just get another ... With another serial#.
Yours must be a "dud" ...

/Bingo

[tautech]

Be assured, there is nothing wrong with the LAN (famous last words but, please trust me on this).  The issue has been replicated on two (actually three) totally different LAN environments.

1)  Only Static IP addresses and LAN configs work.  DCHP is a no-go with intermittent 50 to 100% packet loss.
2)  The timezone keeps resetting to UTC if the unit is powered-off via menu or warm-switch.
3)  The LXI LAN Reset option does not do a HW reset on the phy port (never drops carrier) as I would expect; instead, it set the flags in the LAN configuration for "Auto DHCP" back to enabled status.
4)  After saving a configuration (timebase, some channel configs etc) then, doing a power-down followed by restoring the configuration, some of the screen characteristics are not restored.  e.g. Beep-sounds, menu auto-hide and some channels that were enabled are no longer enabled.

3. Have you tried Tek mode for coms ?
4. How are you shutting down ?
It should only be a 2s press of the power button and then let it save settings. If you hold the power button down this becomes a hard power OFF and settings will not be saved.
Menu Autohide is disabled in FW V1.5.2R2 after some strong insistence to Siglent about this annoying feature for a new user. Early firmware only kept menus up for just 5s.

[Ray CI]

Did you try different ethernet cable / switch ports? 99% of network problems are due to crappy cables / bad connections.

Thanks for the kind ideas but, it's been tried on 2 separate LANs with 3 different routers.  FWIW:  I've written firmware for dozens of products ranging from LAN equipment to large scale core Internet interface cards...  LOL:  I got a pretty good handle on my home LAN  .  I sniffed the traffic and the DHCP is simply broken. Thanks for the kind suggestions.

Ray

[KungFuJosh]

If the issue isn't what Rob (Tautech) suggested above about pressing the power button too long at shut off, I would return it and get a new one. The SDS2000XP series is a great scope, but if you've got a bad unit, don't waste more return window time on it.