New Siglent SDS1202X-E oscilloscope based on Xilinx Zynq-7000 SoC architecture

[pascal_sweden]

The Chinese press release dates back from January:
https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=MzA3NDMwMzY3Mw==&mid=2650216528&idx=1&sn=b009e094f3442e64f9827c1204e68739

The oscilloscope is listed on the Chinese site from Siglent:
http://www.siglent.com/oscilloscope/SDS1000X-E%20Series

First tab: Technical summary
Second tab: User guide and data sheet
Third tab: Options
Fourth tab: Pricing in China for this model and other models

You can use Google Translate to translate the article about the Zynq-7000 SoC architecture.
However Google Translate seems to discard the pictures.

[EEVblog]

There will not be a 70MHz, or 100MHz (the one I have), only a 200MHz version.
http://www.siglent.com/prodcut-db.aspx?id=1529&tid=1&T=2

And the 400k wfs update rate is marketing wank. That's in segmented mode.

And the Chinese Yuan pricing seems way off to what I am told, way too high.

[pascal_sweden]

There also seems to be an SDS-1000X-C series.

What does the "C" stand for? China?

[tautech]

There will not be a 70MHz, or 100MHz (the one I have), only a 200MHz version.
http://www.siglent.com/prodcut-db.aspx?id=1529&tid=1&T=2
And the 400k wfs update rate is marketing wank. That's in segmented mode.

You must have missed this:
Waveform capture rate of 100,000 frames / sec (normal mode); 400,000 frames per second (Sequence mode)
from this page:
http://www.siglent.com/oscilloscope/SDS1000X-E%20Series

There also seems to be an SDS-1000X-C series.

What does the "C" stand for? China?

Yep.

[JPortici]

in the press released from xilinx cited in the other topic they talked about full memory decoding. does it mean it will decode on the full 14 MSps? (instead of only acquiring 1.4 MSps with decode on as it does now)

[pascal_sweden]

Good point!

And I also wonder if it can be called hardware protocol decoding now.

We all look forward to Dave's upcoming review!

[EEVblog]

There will not be a 70MHz, or 100MHz (the one I have), only a 200MHz version.
http://www.siglent.com/prodcut-db.aspx?id=1529&tid=1&T=2
And the 400k wfs update rate is marketing wank. That's in segmented mode.

You must have missed this:
Waveform capture rate of 100,000 frames / sec (normal mode); 400,000 frames per second (Sequence mode)
from this page:
http://www.siglent.com/oscilloscope/SDS1000X-E%20Series

That's what I said, segmented mode is sequence mode. They are pushing that number instead of the normal number.

[EEVblog]

in the press released from xilinx cited in the other topic they talked about full memory decoding. does it mean it will decode on the full 14 MSps? (instead of only acquiring 1.4 MSps with decode on as it does now)

Yes, that's the claim. Have not tried it tough.

[rf-loop]

in the press released from xilinx cited in the other topic they talked about full memory decoding. does it mean it will decode on the full 14 MSps? (instead of only acquiring 1.4 MSps with decode on as it does now)

Yes. Just same way as X/X+ but not rejected max 1.4M sample (because more brute force). And as we remember what ever is acquisition memory length it is equal with display width. (zoom for details).

[tautech]

There will not be a 70MHz, or 100MHz (the one I have), only a 200MHz version.
http://www.siglent.com/prodcut-db.aspx?id=1529&tid=1&T=2
And the 400k wfs update rate is marketing wank. That's in segmented mode.

You must have missed this:
Waveform capture rate of 100,000 frames / sec (normal mode); 400,000 frames per second (Sequence mode)
from this page:
http://www.siglent.com/oscilloscope/SDS1000X-E%20Series

That's what I said, segmented mode is sequence mode. They are pushing that number instead of the normal number.

Fair enough....but on the Chinese website scope overview page only. Migrate to the page I linked and both normal and sequence wfm/s rates are listed just as I'd translated and pasted them in.
But what will matter more in the near future is how it's listed on the English Siglent websites, I strongly suspect it will fall into line with what's presently on the scope overview page, that being normal then sequence mode.
http://siglentamerica.com/pd.aspx?tid=1&T=1

[rf-loop]

There will not be a 70MHz, or 100MHz (the one I have), only a 200MHz version.
http://www.siglent.com/prodcut-db.aspx?id=1529&tid=1&T=2
And the 400k wfs update rate is marketing wank. That's in segmented mode.

You must have missed this:
Waveform capture rate of 100,000 frames / sec (normal mode); 400,000 frames per second (Sequence mode)
from this page:
http://www.siglent.com/oscilloscope/SDS1000X-E%20Series

That's what I said, segmented mode is sequence mode. They are pushing that number instead of the normal number.

Pushing and pushing...

In chinese side:

First :
Inside Product Overview text one sentence.

"waveform capture rates up to 400,000 frames per second (Sequence mode)"

And just after some sentences there read (without even scrolling page down, in same view, if just tiny eyes movement, under scope front image) very clearly:

"
Key Features:

* Bandwidth: 70MHz, 100MHz, 200MHz

* Real-time sampling rate of up to 1GSa / s

* New generation of SPO technology

    * Waveform capture rate of 100,000 frames per second (normal mode); 400,000 frames per second (Sequence mode)

    * Supports 256 levels of waveform brightness and color temperature display

    * Storage depth of 14Mpts

* Digital triggering system
"

What is pushed, what is wrong?

Perhaps this is too long and in western countries all need today be as instant messaging style. Sad.
But yes, some peoples can not be focused over 5 seconds. Overall this is going more and more bad when all is going to instant messaging.

[tautech]

I'm told there's a fresh off the production line 200 MHz unit on the way to Dave right now. 

[ebastler]

Perhaps this is too long and in western countries all need today be as instant messaging style. Sad.

Is that you, Donald??
 

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

I'm told there's a fresh off the production line 200 MHz unit on the way to Dave right now. 

@Dave: please check the UART decoder thoroughly, at a fast baud rate (115200 or moar) and at 100ms/div or so (because a rigol 1000z can do that properly).

[thanasisk]

Any approx release date known yet?

[rf-loop]

Any approx release date known yet?

Yes.
(But this info can not yet release.)

[mikeselectricstuff]

I'm told there's a fresh off the production line 200 MHz unit on the way to Dave right now. 

@Dave: please check the UART decoder thoroughly, at a fast baud rate (115200 or moar) and at 100ms/div or so (because a rigol 1000z can do that properly).

115K2 is hardly fast. I'd expect any decent serial decode to go to at least 4Mbaud, ideally more

[nctnico]

I've seen scopes which go to 10Mbaud but on a regular UART this would require a clock speed of 160MHz. Maybe you could get away with 80MHz or 60MHz  on a UART with less clocks per bit but either way it is going beyond what you'd be 'normally' dealing with.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

115K2 is hardly fast. I'd expect any decent serial decode to go to at least 4Mbaud, ideally more

Of course the moar the better, but at low sweep speeds (100 ms/div) that's not possible, you'd need ~76MB mem depth/channel to decode @ 4Mbaud

[mikeselectricstuff]

I've seen scopes which go to 10Mbaud but on a regular UART this would require a clock speed of 160MHz. Maybe you could get away with 80MHz or 60MHz  on a UART with less clocks per bit but either way it is going beyond what you'd be 'normally' dealing with.

You don't need 16 clocks per bit. PIC32s can do 12.5Mbaud at 50MHz

[nctnico]

I've seen scopes which go to 10Mbaud but on a regular UART this would require a clock speed of 160MHz. Maybe you could get away with 80MHz or 60MHz  on a UART with less clocks per bit but either way it is going beyond what you'd be 'normally' dealing with.

You don't need 16 clocks per bit. PIC32s can do 12.5Mbaud at 50MHz

Having only 4 clocks per bit will severely hamper the (digital) filtering and timing recovery a UART usually does. Why do you think a UART is typically designed to need 16 clocks per bit?

[mikeselectricstuff]

I've seen scopes which go to 10Mbaud but on a regular UART this would require a clock speed of 160MHz. Maybe you could get away with 80MHz or 60MHz  on a UART with less clocks per bit but either way it is going beyond what you'd be 'normally' dealing with.

You don't need 16 clocks per bit. PIC32s can do 12.5Mbaud at 50MHz

Having only 4 clocks per bit will severely hamper the (digital) filtering and timing recovery a UART usually does. Why do you think a UART is typically designed to need 16 clocks per bit?

To deal with noisy data, which will only happen if your hardware isn't up to the job.
General-purpose  UARTs are designed for use over a wide range of conditions. If you have a clean link ( e.g. RS485), you only need 3x clock to recover 100% good data from a clean stream.
Most UARTs have an option to do 8x to get higher baudrates, some have 4x.

And if your UART is in an FPGA, 160MHz clock is trivial, though once you get over 10MBaud, jitter becomes more of an issue, so self-clocking codes like Manchester tend to be used.

[JPortici]

115K2 is hardly fast. I'd expect any decent serial decode to go to at least 4Mbaud, ideally more

Of course the moar the better, but at low sweep speeds (100 ms/div) that's not possible, you'd need ~76MB mem depth/channel to decode @ 4Mbaud

there would be 40k characters per horizontal division. a scope is probably not the correct tool at this point

[tautech]

115K2 is hardly fast. I'd expect any decent serial decode to go to at least 4Mbaud, ideally more

Of course the moar the better, but at low sweep speeds (100 ms/div) that's not possible, you'd need ~76MB mem depth/channel to decode @ 4Mbaud

there would be 40k characters per horizontal division. a scope is probably not the correct tool at this point

You do know the SDS1kX series decode while in Zoom mode, of course you do you just forgot. 

[JPortici]

i also do know that the 1000x uart decode is limited to about 300 kbaud (too slow)
well, the current manual says 115200 but i may have read 300k somewhere else.

still, missed the point completely (even if we wanted to compare the siglent)

[EEVblog]

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

115K2 is hardly fast. I'd expect any decent serial decode to go to at least 4Mbaud, ideally more

Of course the moar the better, but at low sweep speeds (100 ms/div) that's not possible, you'd need ~76MB mem depth/channel to decode @ 4Mbaud

there would be 40k characters per horizontal division. a scope is probably not the correct tool at this point

You do know the SDS1kX series decode while in Zoom mode, of course you do you just forgot. 

@JPortici: That ^^^^^^ and there might be as well just a few tens of bytes (marks) scattered here and there (my use case):

"The other channel is sensing the current into the DUT, the code spits bytes at certain points to correlate execution with power input, the DUT is sleeping most of the time, only awakes every now and then and for less than ~2 seconds."

[EEVblog]

I'm told there's a fresh off the production line 200 MHz unit on the way to Dave right now. 

It's in the Fedex system somewhere

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Thank you Dave. Where the X (not X-E) errs is when you do that at SLOW SWEEPS (10ms/div, 20ms/div or 50ms/div (*)) and then zoom in to see the data: you get mostly garbage at anything above 38.4Kbaud.

All about the bug is in this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1102x-serial-decoder-not-decoding-properly/

(*)In the latest fw updates they shut down the decoder @ 50ms/div or higher.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

you only need 3x clock to recover 100% good data from a clean stream.
Most UARTs have an option to do 8x to get higher baudrates, some have 4x.

Good to know, that would be great, but the SDS1000X seems to need not even 16 but hundreds to do it right, go figure.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

The red boxes in the video are decode errors

[maginnovision]

The red boxes in the video are decode errors

They were there on purpose.

[rf-loop]

you only need 3x clock to recover 100% good data from a clean stream.
Most UARTs have an option to do 8x to get higher baudrates, some have 4x.

Good to know, that would be great, but the SDS1000X seems to need not even 16 but hundreds to do it right, go figure.

Siglent officer told me that serial decoding, specially with some  low timebases is "broken" and this repair/improve  work is in "to-do list"
 
(This work is perhaps scheduled for "things to do" box. So, next coming FW update perhaps do not include this.) 

[tautech]

Thank you Dave. Where the X (not X-E) errs is when you do that at SLOW SWEEPS (10ms/div, 20ms/div or 50ms/div (*)) and then zoom in to see the data: you get mostly garbage at anything above 38.4Kbaud.

All about the bug is in this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1102x-serial-decoder-not-decoding-properly/

(*)In the latest fw updates they shut down the decoder @ 50ms/div or higher.

George, in another thread I replied that the engineers are looking at the issues you raised.

While you are at it pass them this one too with a footnote: "SDS1102X can't decode, thank you very much"

Initial feedback from the factory is at timebases slower than 10ms there is a problem that the engineers are looking at.

[pascal_sweden]

The software that Dave got is only a preview version from engineering, and hopefully the production software includes a proper implementation of hardware decoding. So I think we should not give up our hope already. We should not forget the reason why Siglent selected the Zynq-7000 SoC in the first place

In addition future software updates could also include support for the external trigger. Maybe Siglent just overlooked the external trigger capability. This is clearly a limitation in software for now, and not a hardware limitation.

Let's keep our fingers crossed on future software updates that include a proper implementation of hardware decoding and support for the external trigger! Good work so far Siglent!

[MrW0lf]

Hm, all I can see in the video is that only 140k is used? (10us/ * 14 @ 1GSa/s). What is this, stroking a newborn kitten? That is not torture test even remotely. Crank up to 14M + serial trigger + show table + calculate wfm/s. Then it's testing. Cannot get it to crash - no dumpster diving for a week for you

[pascal_sweden]

Dave: Could you check if this scope also supports 9-bit data decoding?
I need this for a specific project that I am working on.

[nctnico]

Some remarks:
I don't think this scope is doing hardware decoding because that would require a serious amount of extra FPGA work while most of the software for decoding is already there (albeit needing fixes given the problems found in the SDS1000X).

The delay before the decoding apears has nothing to do with reading the memory because the memory depth is 140kpts and not 14Mpts. The delay is there to wait for a stable signal so the waveform update rate doesn't suffer from interruption by the decoding cycles.

It would be nice to force the scope to always use full memory depth (is that possible?), capture some frames and then look in the lister while zoomed in on one frame. If all frames are listed then it is actually doing full memory decoding.

BTW: are the decoding errors really on purpose? I can't find that in the video.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

BTW: are the decoding errors really on purpose? I can't find that in the video.

Smells very much like some sort of April 1st prank me thinks

[madires]

Sorry for nitpicking, but please use the term "bps" (bits per second) when you're talking about the data rate. Seeing "Baud" on the scope's screen is . Baud is the symbol rate. A symbol can be the equivalent of muliple bits. Take QAM64 for example, a single symbol of QAM64 transports 6 bits. So a symbol rate of 1kbaud is a data rate of 6kbps.

[ElectronicCat]

So is the SDS1202X-E going to be similar to the current 1202X but priced similarly (or cheaper than) the SDS1102X. Currently trying to decide between the Rigol DS1054Z, Keysight EDUX1002A and either the unreleased Siglent SDS1202X-E or SDS1102X. Serial decoding would definitely be nice so I'm tempted by the Rigol or Siglents (though the lack of an extra channel might be a pain), but I suppose I could always get a cheap logic analyser as well. The Rigol still looks like the best bang for the buck but the software and hardware on the Keysights and Siglents look to be slightly better.

[nctnico]

So is the SDS1202X-E going to be similar to the current 1202X but priced similarly (or cheaper than) the SDS1102X. Currently trying to decide between the Rigol DS1054Z, Keysight EDUX1002A and either the unreleased Siglent SDS1202X-E or SDS1102X. Serial decoding would definitely be nice so I'm tempted by the Rigol or Siglents (though the lack of an extra channel might be a pain), but I suppose I could always get a cheap logic analyser as well. The Rigol still looks like the best bang for the buck but the software and hardware on the Keysights and Siglents look to be slightly better.

If Siglent lives up to their reputation the SDS1202X-E will be riddled with bugs for the next 2 years so your best bet is the Rigol DS1000Z if you want decoding. I'd go for a 4 channel scope anyway because that is way more usefull than a 2 channel scope.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Sorry for nitpicking, but please use the term "bps" (bits per second) when you're talking about the data rate. Seeing "Baud" on the scope's screen is . Baud is the symbol rate. A symbol can be the equivalent of muliple bits. Take QAM64 for example, a single symbol of QAM64 transports 6 bits. So a symbol rate of 1kbaud is a data rate of 6kbps.

In the context of UART data. Everyone uses baud. To use anything else would be confusing

[coppice]

Sorry for nitpicking, but please use the term "bps" (bits per second) when you're talking about the data rate. Seeing "Baud" on the scope's screen is . Baud is the symbol rate. A symbol can be the equivalent of muliple bits. Take QAM64 for example, a single symbol of QAM64 transports 6 bits. So a symbol rate of 1kbaud is a data rate of 6kbps.

In the context of UART data. Everyone uses baud. To use anything else would be confusing

I think most of us use the proper term, bps, even though dumb software developers keep inappropriately using baud in configuration windows. I agree with madires. Its really annoying when people use words at random.

[ebastler]

The software that Dave got is only a preview version from engineering, and hopefully the production software includes a proper implementation of hardware decoding. So I think we should not give up our hope already. We should not forget the reason why Siglent selected the Zynq-7000 SoC in the first place

In addition future software updates could also include support for the external trigger. Maybe Siglent just overlooked the external trigger capability. This is clearly a limitation in software for now, and not a hardware limitation.

I admire your optimisim. 
Seems that Siglent haven't even come around to fixing serial decoding in the previous product:

[...] the SDS1000X seems to need not even 16 but hundreds to do it right, go figure.

Siglent officer told me that serial decoding, specially with some  low timebases is "broken" and this repair/improve  work is in "to-do list"
(This work is perhaps scheduled for "things to do" box. So, next coming FW update perhaps do not include this.)

And no, I don't think that Siglent chose the Zynq chip primarily with hardware serial decoding in mind.
The Zynq is a cool chip, by the way, but I don't think it justifies developing a fixation... 

[maginnovision]

BTW: are the decoding errors really on purpose? I can't find that in the video.

Yes, it's the same uart demo that comes with the RTB2000.

[tautech]

So is the SDS1202X-E going to be similar to the current 1202X but priced similarly (or cheaper than) the SDS1102X.

Yes.
X-E will have some features that are better than X models, but there will be some small differences too.
I see some small differences in the UI in Dave's vid.

Currently trying to decide between the Rigol DS1054Z, Keysight EDUX1002A and either the unreleased Siglent SDS1202X-E or SDS1102X. Serial decoding would definitely be nice so I'm tempted by the Rigol or Siglents (though the lack of an extra channel might be a pain), but I suppose I could always get a cheap logic analyser as well. The Rigol still looks like the best bang for the buck but the software and hardware on the Keysights and Siglents look to be slightly better.

X or X-E is the only choice if you want full BW 500uV inputs.
I don't know why Dave did the decoding at minimum memory depth, maybe just to show that it could. 

As the UI is very similar to existing models I would expect that bug count when released should be quite small.
A question to Tech support indicated they have some units at their beta testers and feedback is seeing a just few bugs reported. So we would expect a new FW release very soon after release addressing them as has happened with some of Siglent's other recent releases.

The software that Dave got is only a preview version from engineering, and hopefully the production software includes a proper implementation of hardware decoding. So I think we should not give up our hope already. We should not forget the reason why Siglent selected the Zynq-7000 SoC in the first place

In addition future software updates could also include support for the external trigger. Maybe Siglent just overlooked the external trigger capability. This is clearly a limitation in software for now, and not a hardware limitation.

I admire your optimisim. 
Seems that Siglent haven't even come around to fixing serial decoding in the previous product:

[...] the SDS1000X seems to need not even 16 but hundreds to do it right, go figure.

Siglent officer told me that serial decoding, specially with some  low timebases is "broken" and this repair/improve  work is in "to-do list"
(This work is perhaps scheduled for "things to do" box. So, next coming FW update perhaps do not include this.)

And no, I don't think that Siglent chose the Zynq chip primarily with hardware serial decoding in mind.
The Zynq is a cool chip, by the way, but I don't think it justifies developing a fixation... 

Correct, but the Zynq chip offers some more grunt to implement some existing features better and possibly include more that can use the additional grunt.

[kcbrown]

If Siglent lives up to their reputation the SDS1202X-E will be riddled with bugs for the next 2 years so your best bet is the Rigol DS1000Z if you want decoding. I'd go for a 4 channel scope anyway because that is way more usefull than a 2 channel scope.

Um, no.  That would be making a decision based on speculation, and it's premature to do so.   No, his best bet is to wait for this new unit to come out and to see how well it actually holds up, and then make the decision.

Maybe it'll be riddled with bugs and maybe it won't be.  Siglent's history with longstanding bugs is mainly with respect to the SDS2000 series (not the 2000X or 1000X).  Put another way, it appears you're basing your criticism on how Siglent handled one model line, rather than multiple lines.   Which other lines had the same issue with longstanding bugs?  I know of none, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.  It's on you to point them out and to provide supporting evidence, since it's your claim that Siglent has a reputation for this.

[nctnico]

If Siglent lives up to their reputation the SDS1202X-E will be riddled with bugs for the next 2 years so your best bet is the Rigol DS1000Z if you want decoding. I'd go for a 4 channel scope anyway because that is way more usefull than a 2 channel scope.

Um, no.  That would be making a decision based on speculation, and it's premature to do so.   No, his best bet is to wait for this new unit to come out and to see how well it actually holds up, and then make the decision.

Maybe it'll be riddled with bugs and maybe it won't be.  Siglent's history with longstanding bugs is mainly with respect to the SDS2000 series (not the 2000X or 1000X).  Put another way, it appears you're basing your criticism on how Siglent handled one model line, rather than multiple lines.   Which other lines had the same issue with longstanding bugs?  I know of none, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.  It's on you to point them out and to provide supporting evidence, since it's your claim that Siglent has a reputation for this.

Are you kidding? Look at the history of every product Siglent has released and you'll see it takes at least two years to iron out the serious bugs. Just look in the threads about Siglent power supplies, DMMs, signal generators or oscilloscopes and you can see for yourself. Maybe the SDS2000 is a low point in your mind but initially the SDG1000 series wasn't very useable with the original firmware (I ran the Lecroy firmware on mine for a long time) and it has a hardware issue as well, their new spectrum analyser had some issues with the tracking generator (current firmware sweeps much slower than before) and more recent someone found a serious problem in the UART decoding of the SDS1000X series scopes.

[tautech]

If Siglent lives up to their reputation the SDS1202X-E will be riddled with bugs for the next 2 years so your best bet is the Rigol DS1000Z if you want decoding. I'd go for a 4 channel scope anyway because that is way more usefull than a 2 channel scope.

Um, no.  That would be making a decision based on speculation, and it's premature to do so.   No, his best bet is to wait for this new unit to come out and to see how well it actually holds up, and then make the decision.

Maybe it'll be riddled with bugs and maybe it won't be.  Siglent's history with longstanding bugs is mainly with respect to the SDS2000 series (not the 2000X or 1000X).  Put another way, it appears you're basing your criticism on how Siglent handled one model line, rather than multiple lines.   Which other lines had the same issue with longstanding bugs?  I know of none, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.  It's on you to point them out and to provide supporting evidence, since it's your claim that Siglent has a reputation for this.

Yep, we've had problems....historical, things are different now, certainly no worse than other products released and discussed on this forum in the last few weeks.
Siglent's technical feedback network and beta tester structure is more advanced than it's ever been.

The member you have quoted is well known for his criticism and they were valid at one time. That he still apparently has his SDG1k is some testament to its longevity and it might seem he even runs the current Siglent FW in it now.

One wonders if he is again attempting to create hostility in this thread and start another slanging match that will only attract the attention of the moderators ? 

[pascal_sweden]

How does the beta tester structure look like? Are these based in both Europe and the USA?

Which credentials need to be fulfilled to become an official beta tester?

[Fungus]

Surely you can still trigger using the CSS on the external trigger even though it doesn't explicitly say "CSS" on screen.

More interesting would be if it does I2C decode on the whole memory. Can you capture I2C data then scroll the START off screen horizontally without the decode freaking out

[tautech]

How does the beta tester structure look like? Are these based in both Europe and the USA?

Which credentials need to be fulfilled to become an official beta tester?

Only management will know who has X-E. There are beta testers worldwide.

Some EEVblog members are and have been beta testers for Siglent, but only those with demonstrated superior technical knowledge of the EE field. It is a very privileged position where secrecy is very important.
Users feedback is important too but without an existing relationship of trust and understanding users feedback need be detailed and clear so that engineers can simply replicate issues and seek remedies for the next firmware update.

[pascal_sweden]

Maybe Siglent should give a T-shirt to their official Beta testers!

Here is an example of how it could look like! See attachment.

[ebastler]

Maybe Siglent should give a T-shirt to their official Beta testers!

That would help a lot with the secrecy requirement tautech had mentioned...

[kcbrown]

Are you kidding? Look at the history of every product Siglent has released

Every product, eh?

What of the SDS1000X series?   What of the SDG2000 series?   What of the SDS2000X series?

and you'll see it takes at least two years to iron out the serious bugs.

Which serious bugs remain in the SDG2000 series?   Which serious bugs remain in the SDS1000X series?   Which serious bugs remain in the SDG1000X series?   None of those has even been on the market for more than 2 years.

Just look in the threads about Siglent power supplies, DMMs, signal generators or oscilloscopes and you can see for yourself. Maybe the SDS2000 is a low point in your mind but initially the SDG1000 series wasn't very useable with the original firmware (I ran the Lecroy firmware on mine for a long time) and it has a hardware issue as well,

Just how far back do you insist on going?   I'm certainly not going to disagree that Siglent was as you described, but you're ascribing that past trait to them now, when their trend over time seems to indicate a quite significant improvement.  And that's just as much of an injustice as would be me leveling the same criticism at GW Instek for the way they handled the GDS-2104: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/opinions-on-gw-instek-scopes/msg1131212/#msg1131212 (we never did find out if the firmware they released last year, some 4+ years after the person involved experienced his issues, fixed those issues for him).

their new spectrum analyser had some issues with the tracking generator (current firmware sweeps much slower than before) and more recent someone found a serious problem in the UART decoding of the SDS1000X series scopes.

Sure.  And the same sort of thing seems to be true with respect to the new R&S offering.  Are you going to argue that R&S equipment should be avoided for the same reason that Siglent equipment should be avoided?

Bugs can't be fixed until they're identified.  The problem isn't about whether or not there will be some bugs upon any release, or even over time, the problem is with how responsive the company is with respect to addressing them.   Bugs that are more obscure and/or have a lower probability of being hit (for whatever reason, not the least of which is that the way people usually use the equipment is such that they don't configure the equipment so as to put it within the realm of the bug in the first place -- the Siglent UART decoding issue certainly seems to be one of those, seeing how it wasn't until recently that the problem was reported despite the fact that the scope has been on the market for over a year) are bugs that are likely to remain present for some time after the product's release.

It looks to me like Siglent has substantially improved its responsiveness.  But you seem to be living in the past with respect to how you view them.   I get that your experience with their equipment has been bad, and know how that can leave a sour taste in one's mouth.  But when it comes to advising others, what's needed first and foremost is objectivity, and that requires an honest assessment of the trends.

[pascal_sweden]

If you are a Beta tester for an unreleased scope model, you are bound to keep secrecy:
You can't reveal any details about an upcoming scope release and its technical specifications.

However, I don't believe it's an actual secret to know if you are a Beta tester or not.
Of course there could be an issue, if industry spies would find out and intercept your post packages

But why not introduce an official Beta tester statute to help testing products that are already released?
Then there is no secrecy about a new scope release or the technical specifications. And the community could help out in an official way to test out a new beta software version, using an official bug tracking system, such as JIRA, Bugzilla or ClearDDTS.

[snoopy]

Surely you can still trigger using the CSS on the external trigger even though it doesn't explicitly say "CSS" on screen.

More interesting would be if it does I2C decode on the whole memory. Can you capture I2C data then scroll the START off screen horizontally without the decode freaking out

This is next to useless for SPI decoding especially bit banged SPI where the packet length could be delayed somewhat. Perhaps this is why they have delayed release after they saw what Keysight did with the external trigger

cheers

[nctnico]

It looks to me like Siglent has substantially improved its responsiveness.

Sure there has been some improvement from Siglent but it depends greatly on how much focus there is on a product (look at their handheld scopes for example https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg1172051/#msg1172051). Siglent also keeps missing silly bugs that other manufacturers catch early by doing proper software testing. Anyway, financially it doesn't make sense to me to do a full functional test on every piece of equipment I buy. I'm better off paying a bit more (and/or buy a used A-brand) so I can trust a piece of equipment just works as specified.

[tszaboo]

...

Ok, so the logic analyzer probes connects to the back, or yet another manufacturer thinks, that it is OK to create a scope in 2017 without logic analyzer built in? Seriously, do they even make market research?  Or do they just assume, that everyone wants a 2 CH scope, with as much speed as possible, right? Nobody interested in 500uV/DIV, or logic analiser input, or advanced features, like they were on a  HP 54600 twenty years ago... We want big megahertzes, and jigasamples per second.

[pascal_sweden]

Good catch about the missing LA slot!

Weird placement of the USB connector and there is no indented section around the power button like there is in the SDS1000X series.

Actually the SDS1000X-E series does not use the same case as the SDS1000X series.
Maybe it will in the final production version?

Could this be a pre-production case?

[kcbrown]

Sure there has been some improvement from Siglent but it depends greatly on how much focus there is on a product

Yes, but here, "focus on a product" is directly related (though not solely related) to the sales of the product, which will in turn determine the probability that any given bug will be found.  Of course, the focus isn't determined solely by that.  I suspect the SDS2000X series did substantially better than the SDS2000 series in large part because of the beating Siglent took due to their handling of the latter.

Regardless, what we're talking about here isn't a product that is relegated to a small niche.  It's a new product targeting the largest market segment for its type of product.   So what reason do we have to believe that Siglent won't put a lot of focus on it?

(look at their handheld scopes for example https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg1172051/#msg1172051). Siglent also keeps missing silly bugs that other manufacturers catch early by doing proper software testing.

You mean other manufacturers such as R&S?

Anyway, financially it doesn't make sense to me to do a full functional test on every piece of equipment I buy. I'm better off paying a bit more (and/or buy a used A-brand) so I can trust a piece of equipment just works as specified.

Wait, you think that by buying a higher priced piece of equipment, that you'll be guaranteed it'll work as specified, and that it'll have no serious bugs?   Really?   Like, say, the R&S RTB2K series?

The new Keysight 1000X series looks pretty solid from what little I've seen written, but that shouldn't be surprising at all, seeing how (as far as I know, at any rate) it's essentially using the same architecture and everything as the 2000 and 3000 series scopes, so the firmware has almost certainly inherited the fixes that have been applied to those scopes.


Look, I don't disagree that the A-brand manufacturers will tend to put more effort into quality control in their new offerings than manufacturers such as Siglent, Rigol, and yes, even Instek.  But it's important to note that the A-brand manufacturers usually target higher-end markets.  Siglent, Rigol, and Instek have nothing that can touch the Keysight 6K series, and that's just Keysight's midrange.  It's only just now that Keysight is really getting into the hobbyist market.  R&S still hasn't entered it, really, and neither has Tektronix.  In that space, aside from Keysight, there's only Siglent, Rigol, and Instek, and even Instek's reputation isn't spotless here.

But not even the A-brand manufacturers' efforts at quality control guarantee what you seem to be after here (perfect functionality for everything you use the equipment for).  It only alters the odds.

In fact, the very scope you settled on had issues by your very own admission.  What's the difference between your experience with it versus your experience with Siglent?   Clearly, the main difference is the speed with which Instek fixed the issues you reported to them.   You came away impressed by that, and rightly so. 


The point here is simple: Siglent seems to have upped their game, particularly with respect to products in the market we're discussing here.  Maybe they haven't upped it to your level of satisfaction, but I'm not convinced you're giving them a fair assessment.   So again, maybe the new 1000X-E series will be riddled with bugs and maybe it won't be.  But the trend Siglent has been on with respect to fixing issues is such that it's no longer the foregone conclusion that you claim it to be.

[tautech]

Good catch about the missing LA slot!

Weird placement of the USB connector and there is no indented section around the power button like there is in the SDS1000X series.

Actually the SDS1000X-E series does not use the same case as the SDS1000X series.
Maybe it will in the final production version?

Could this be a pre-production case?

WYSIWYG

[rf-loop]

Good catch about the missing LA slot!

Weird placement of the USB connector and there is no indented section around the power button like there is in the SDS1000X series.

Actually the SDS1000X-E series does not use the same case as the SDS1000X series.
Maybe it will in the final production version?

Could this be a pre-production case?

SDS1202X-Economy  do not have internal HW for MSO feature and because this, also no need LA connector.
If need MSO, then select bigger X+ model with 16Ch LA (+ also 25MHz signal generator)

X-E case is different, smaller. Also less weight. X/X+ is 3.26kg and X-E  2.5kg.
width 312mm  and height 150mm. (X/X+ 340mm, 184mm)

X-E display is 7" and X/X+ 8" same 800x480 resolution.

As tautech told WYSIWYG.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

X-E display is 7" and X/X+ 8" same 800x480 resolution.

The X-E's display is smaller than the X's ? One inch smaller? Really? Are you sure? If so, that for me is a "thumbs down". Grrrr.

[rf-loop]

X-E display is 7" and X/X+ 8" same 800x480 resolution.

The X-E's display is smaller than the X's ? One inch smaller? Really? Are you sure? If so, that for me is a "thumbs down". Grrrr.

Yes. There is not free lounges. (Price)

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

How does the beta tester structure look like? Are these based in both Europe and the USA?

Which credentials need to be fulfilled to become an official beta tester?

Only management will know who has X-E. There are beta testers worldwide.

The SDS1kX was a pleasure to work with, very responsive and the display clear and big. I would happily beta-test the X-E.

[thanasisk]

Good catch about the missing LA slot!

Weird placement of the USB connector and there is no indented section around the power button like there is in the SDS1000X series.

Actually the SDS1000X-E series does not use the same case as the SDS1000X series.
Maybe it will in the final production version?

Could this be a pre-production case?

SDS1202X-Economy  do not have internal HW for MSO feature and because this, also no need LA connector.
If need MSO, then select bigger X+ model with 16Ch LA (+ also 25MHz signal generator)

X-E case is different, smaller. Also less weight. X/X+ is 3.26kg and X-E  2.5kg.
width 312mm  and height 150mm. (X/X+ 340mm, 184mm)

X-E display is 7" and X/X+ 8" same 800x480 resolution.

As tautech told WYSIWYG.

Will the SDS1000X-E have a plus version as well? (including la and signal gen)?

[ebastler]

SDS1202X-Economy  do not have internal HW for MSO feature and because this, also no need LA connector.
If need MSO, then select bigger X+ model with 16Ch LA (+ also 25MHz signal generator)

As tautech told WYSIWYG.

Will the SDS1000X-E have a plus version as well? (including la and signal gen)?

What's so hard to understand about rf-loop's statement?

No, for the time being, Siglent wants you to buy the more expensive models if you need that extra functionality. It's called market segmentation. They might eventually follow up with an X-E plus version, if competitive pressure forces them to do so. But they will not tell you now, because -- as mentioned before -- they want you to buy the X+.

[pascal_sweden]

So the economy version can do hardware decoding and supports the full memory buffer.

While the higher-end models don't do hardware decoding and only decode what's shown on the screen.

Will Siglent update the software for those higher-end models to decode the full memory buffer?

[nctnico]

Sure there has been some improvement from Siglent but it depends greatly on how much focus there is on a product

Yes, but here, "focus on a product" is directly related (though not solely related) to the sales of the product, which will in turn determine the probability that any given bug will be found.  Of course, the focus isn't determined solely by that.  I suspect the SDS2000X series did substantially better than the SDS2000 series in large part because of the beating Siglent took due to their handling of the latter.

Sorry but your assumption users should find bugs makes my jaws drop to the floor. Ideally a product should not be shipped with bugs but that is ideally. However with good test procedures in place a piece of test equipment should not have the silly bugs Rigol and Siglent are famous for. That is the major difference between the low end brands and the more expensive brands.

Regarding the SDS2000(X): AFAIK: the high-resolution mode is still limited to 1.4kpts so pretty much useless. I use high-res/filtering often to remove noise in order to make the actual signal more clear but with only 1.4kpts to look at you can only see a short part of a signal. And there are more ass-backward things Siglent does like shortening the memory length automatically. I don't recall any other DSO doing something like that. Either use the full memory length or use the length the user has selected.

In fact, the very scope you settled on had issues by your very own admission.  What's the difference between your experience with it versus your experience with Siglent?   Clearly, the main difference is the speed with which Instek fixed the issues you reported to them.   You came away impressed by that, and rightly so. 

The difference is that:
1) the bugs I found in the GDS-2000E where rather obscure, there where only two and both got fixed within weeks
2) overall the GDS-2000E firmware is way more mature with many tiny details which make life easier.
I really dug deep into the GDS-2000E to hunt for bugs: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gds2204e-(200mhz-4-channel-dso)-review/

BTW: you asked about problems in the SDG1000(X) and SDG2000X signal generators. There is at least one: the log sweep doesn't work. Instead of sweeping the generator produces a series of frequency steps. Not nice when testing a notch filter.

Also when I use my SDG1010 I notice I don't trust it at all. It has been through so many firmware versions each with their own quirks that I'm totally lost on what works and what doesn't. When I need to test something quick I use my cheap Feeltech FY3200 generator and I'm thinking about getting a different/new signal generator from a higher end brand.

[JPortici]

SDS1202X-Economy  do not have internal HW for MSO feature and because this, also no need LA connector.
If need MSO, then select bigger X+ model with 16Ch LA (+ also 25MHz signal generator)

As tautech told WYSIWYG.

Will the SDS1000X-E have a plus version as well? (including la and signal gen)?

What's so hard to understand about rf-loop's statement?

No, for the time being, Siglent wants you to buy the more expensive models if you need that extra functionality. It's called market segmentation. They might eventually follow up with an X-E plus version, if competitive pressure forces them to do so. But they will not tell you now, because -- as mentioned before -- they want you to buy the X+.

but in this case it seems the older, more complete and more costly model is also worse in some areas... at least in the decode part (can decode at max 50 ms/div, at 1.4 MPts memory depth instead of the full 14Mpts and also with some limitations and bugs.. for exmaple, the max baud rate for uart is 115200, at the limit of usefulness.. and it seems it's having issues handling it)

Me? i have my mind set on the keysight dsox1000 for home scope replacement. seeing dave's video made me wonder if i would have changed my mind if there would have been a plus model too. Probably not though

Always wanting more.. and more.. and more..

[kcbrown]

Sure there has been some improvement from Siglent but it depends greatly on how much focus there is on a product

Yes, but here, "focus on a product" is directly related (though not solely related) to the sales of the product, which will in turn determine the probability that any given bug will be found.  Of course, the focus isn't determined solely by that.  I suspect the SDS2000X series did substantially better than the SDS2000 series in large part because of the beating Siglent took due to their handling of the latter.

Sorry but your assumption users should find bugs makes my jaws drop to the floor.

My "assumption", which is really just an observation of reality, is that users will find bugs that the vendor does not, and that the probability that a given bug will be found by a user is going to increase with the number of users who are using the product.  The probability that a bug will be found is the probability that the vendor will find the bug combined with the probability that a user will find the bug.  The former is probably close to a constant for a given vendor, which makes the latter the only variable in the equation.

Of course the vendor should be attempting to find bugs themselves.  But the reality is that they won't find them all, no matter how hard they try, and the harder they try, the more expensive the product will be and the longer the time to market.

Ideally a product should not be shipped with bugs but that is ideally. However with good test procedures in place a piece of test equipment should not have the silly bugs Rigol and Siglent are famous for. That is the major difference between the low end brands and the more expensive brands.

You mean silly bugs like persistence not working?

Regarding the SDS2000(X): AFAIK: the high-resolution mode is still limited to 1.4kpts so pretty much useless.

How do you know that's a bug and not a straight-up limitation of the architecture?   Admittedly, it's quite the limitation.  But the GDS2204E doesn't have high-resolution mode at all (unless something's changed since you produced your review), so how is the SDS2000X worse in that regard?

I use high-res/filtering often to remove noise in order to make the actual signal more clear but with only 1.4kpts to look at you can only see a short part of a signal. And there are more ass-backward things Siglent does like shortening the memory length automatically. I don't recall any other DSO doing something like that. Either use the full memory length or use the length the user has selected.

I thought the Siglent used the memory length the user selected and then set the acquisition rate based on the window of time shown on the display, since they're using the "what you see is all you get" approach to acquisition.   No?

The difference is that:
1) the bugs I found in the GDS-2000E where rather obscure, there where only two and both got fixed within weeks

What was "obscure" about persistence not working?   Admittedly, you didn't elaborate on what was wrong with it in your (quite nice) writeup.

2) overall the GDS-2000E firmware is way more mature with many tiny details which make life easier.
I really dug deep into the GDS-2000E to hunt for bugs: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gds2204e-(200mhz-4-channel-dso)-review/

Right, but the same can't be said of their prior GDS-2104 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/opinions-on-gw-instek-scopes/msg1131212/#msg1131212), can it?

Instek has apparently improved quite a lot in that department.   I suspect much of that is because Instek re-used the code from the firmware in their prior models, so the bugfixes that went into those prior models also made it into their newer models, and it shows.

Why should we believe that Siglent will do anything different in that regard, particularly with the SDS1000X-E?

BTW: you asked about problems in the SDG1000(X) and SDG2000X signal generators. There is at least one: the log sweep doesn't work. Instead of sweeping the generator produces a series of frequency steps. Not nice when testing a notch filter.

It's not clear to me how that can be entirely avoided in a digital instrument like this, though there are certainly going to be ways to minimize the effect (e.g., for sweeps, keeping the interval between frequency changes very short, like 1ms or something, and performing the frequency step calculation on the fly).  I noticed that the steps are apparent at low frequencies but not so much at higher ones (I suspect it would be a lot more apparent with a proper and fast FFT, so your Instek scope would be excellent for showing it), as if it's computing a fixed-size series of frequencies to use with some sort of integer value as its basis, and it's just running the value through a log-based function to arrive at the desired frequency.    Yes, that won't work very well for testing a notch filter, though it looks to me like it may be generating a fixed number of frequencies to use, so at least it looks like you can increase the frequency resolution by narrowing the frequency range.

Do you see the same effect when using linear sweep?

This particular behavior smells like a design flaw to me more than a garden variety bug, but perhaps a rewrite of the log sweep engine could take care of it.


Why in the world didn't you stick with the LeCroy firmware?   It's LeCroy.  Surely it doesn't have any glaring faults like this, since it's from an A-brand manufacturer ... right?

Also when I use my SDG1010 I notice I don't trust it at all. It has been through so many firmware versions each with their own quirks that I'm totally lost on what works and what doesn't. When I need to test something quick I use my cheap Feeltech FY3200 generator and I'm thinking about getting a different/new signal generator from a higher end brand.

You definitely should get a different waveform generator in that case.  You have to be able to trust your equipment.  That trust ultimately has to come from experience, but as you say (and I agree), the A-brands are going to at least start from a better point.  Looks like Instek has a decent range of waveform generators.  Given your positive experience with them, I don't think I'd hesitate to go for one of their units as long as the specs meet your requirements.   Something "equivalent" from Keysight will cost you at least 1.5x what the Instek units would, from what I'm seeing.

While I think you overstate things with respect to Siglent's newer offerings ("riddled with bugs"), I do think there's a kernel of truth in what you say: the upper-tier brands will generally (not always, but then, there's exceptions to everything) do better in terms of releasing stable and functional products.   You do pay quite a lot more for it, though.  There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.   There's a reason the "B-brand" manufacturers are able to hit substantially lower pricepoints.  Good QC is expensive.  If brands like Siglent were to adopt the QC methods of the "A-brand" manufacturers, how exactly would you expect them to hit their current price targets?   "B-brand" manufacturers can do things to minimize both development costs and QC costs like reusing firmware from previous models, and I fully expect that's what Siglent is doing here (which is why I'm skeptical of the claim that the 1000X-E will be "riddled with bugs"), but that's very different from adopting the QC methods in use by the "A-brand" manufacturers.

[nctnico]

The difference is that:
1) the bugs I found in the GDS-2000E where rather obscure, there where only two and both got fixed within weeks

What was "obscure" about persistence not working?   Admittedly, you didn't elaborate on what was wrong with it in your (quite nice) writeup.

It was quite hard to spot but IIRC there was no difference between selecting 16ms and 500ms or something like that.

Right, but the same can't be said of their prior GDS-2104 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/opinions-on-gw-instek-scopes/msg1131212/#msg1131212), can it?

After reading the thread again IMHO it is a bit of a grey area on where to put the blame. Appearantly there was new firmware available for this (now obsolete) scope but the owners never looked/asked for a new version. I can't believe a new firmware version is released just before a piece of equipment is taken out of production so it must have been available for a longer period. Unfortunately GW Instek is a bit daft when it comes to publishing firmware on their website. They rather send it when people ask for it (see the obsolete GW Instek DMMs currently on sale on Ebay).

BTW: you asked about problems in the SDG1000(X) and SDG2000X signal generators. There is at least one: the log sweep doesn't work. Instead of sweeping the generator produces a series of frequency steps. Not nice when testing a notch filter.

It's not clear to me how that can be entirely avoided in a digital instrument like this, though there are certainly going to be ways to minimize the effect (e.g., for sweeps, keeping the interval between frequency changes very short, like 1ms or something, and performing the frequency step calculation
....
sort of integer value as its basis, and it's just running the value through a log-based function to arrive at the desired frequency.    Yes, that won't work very well for testing a notch filter, though it looks to me like it may be generating a fixed number of frequencies to use, so at least it looks like you can increase the frequency resolution by narrowing the frequency range.

Do you see the same effect when using linear sweep?

This particular behavior smells like a design flaw to me more than a garden variety bug, but perhaps a rewrite of the log sweep engine could take care of it.

Bug or design flaw doesn't matter: it doesn't work. I agree it could be interesting to look at the log sweep output with a spectrum analyser or FFT but what is the purpose? Linear sweep works fine BTW.

If brands like Siglent were to adopt the QC methods of the "A-brand" manufacturers, how exactly would you expect them to hit their current price targets?   "B-brand" manufacturers can do things to minimize both development costs and QC costs like reusing firmware from previous models, and I fully expect that's what Siglent is doing here (which is why I'm skeptical of the claim that the 1000X-E will be "riddled with bugs"), but that's very different from adopting the QC methods in use by the "A-brand" manufacturers.

Chinese brands can deploy cheap labour for testing and programming. That is where they get their advantage from when it comes to price. Doing a full functional test is a really simple job that doesn't take much education so doesn't need to cost much. The root cause however is not saving money but incompetence when it comes to managing software development. I have some experience with Chinese software developers myself and it made me want to cry. Every concept of creating quality software and testing was completely alien to them and their bugs reminded me of the ones Siglent and Rigol show. The good Chinese software developers all seem to work in the US and Europe.

[kcbrown]

The difference is that:
1) the bugs I found in the GDS-2000E where rather obscure, there where only two and both got fixed within weeks

What was "obscure" about persistence not working?   Admittedly, you didn't elaborate on what was wrong with it in your (quite nice) writeup.

It was quite hard to spot but IIRC there was no difference between selecting 16ms and 500ms or something like that.

Oh, interesting.  Please alter your writeup and put that in it.  That kind of thing is useful to demonstrate that the bug in the feature in question isn't a fundamental one.

Right, but the same can't be said of their prior GDS-2104 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/opinions-on-gw-instek-scopes/msg1131212/#msg1131212), can it?

After reading the thread again IMHO it is a bit of a grey area on where to put the blame.

How so?  The user who had the problem said that they'd been waiting for Instek to fix the problems for years and finally just gave up on it.

Appearantly there was new firmware available for this (now obsolete) scope but the owners never looked/asked for a new version. I can't believe a new firmware version is released just before a piece of equipment is taken out of production so it must have been available for a longer period.

True, but we can't know how much time transpired between when the user in question bought his scope and the point in time that Instek finally released an updated version.   That user had been checking for updates for some time, apparently, without any success.

You might want to have a look at their firmware page for that scope.  They released another version 2 weeks ago.   That's very good support considering it's a discontinued product, but it raises the possibility (remote though it might be) that it wasn't until they discontinued the product that they started issuing new releases for that particular product.   Indeed, it might be that they're releasing new versions of the firmware for that scope because they're fixing bugs in their current products, and those fixes are being backmerged into the old product's firmware.   If they're doing that, then it really is excellent product support, because they certainly don't have to do that at all.

Their firmware releases don't seem to include a changelog, however, something that even Rigol manages to include, so Instek still has some improving to do here.


In any case, the point here is that Instek apparently has not always been the responsive company your experiences indicate it to be.  They've improved.   If they can improve, what says Siglent can't and, more importantly, what says they haven't?

Unfortunately GW Instek is a bit daft when it comes to publishing firmware on their website. They rather send it when people ask for it (see the obsolete GW Instek DMMs currently on sale on Ebay).

That is odd.  But perhaps they're improving on that front as well.   Here's hoping, anyway ...

This particular behavior smells like a design flaw to me more than a garden variety bug, but perhaps a rewrite of the log sweep engine could take care of it.

Bug or design flaw doesn't matter: it doesn't work.

Wait.   What exactly do you mean by it doesn't work here?   It performs a "sweep", but it's not "smooth" at lower frequencies when there's more than 2 orders of magnitude between the lowest frequency and the highest one.   Any smoothness that one perceives is likely to be perception only -- chances are it's stepping through a set of frequencies regardless, and I'd wager it's doing that even in linear sweep mode.

What exactly are your expectations here?  That the frequency sweep be truly continuous?



It would be really interesting to characterize the log sweep of an A-brand AWG like the one from Keysight.

I agree it could be interesting to look at the log sweep output with a spectrum analyser or FFT but what is the purpose?

The purpose would be to better characterize the bug.  That kind of thing can help the development team track down the root cause quite a lot.  In this case, because the issue is reproducible at will, it probably doesn't matter a whole lot.

Linear sweep works fine BTW.

Interesting.  But in light of the above, are you sure?

What's the advantage, for testing, of using log sweep versus linear sweep?

Chinese brands can deploy cheap labour for testing and programming. That is where they get their advantage from when it comes to price. Doing a full functional test is a really simple job that doesn't take much education so doesn't need to cost much.

So can the traditional manufacturers.  If it were just about that, then I'd expect the traditional manufacturers to already be doing this in order to (substantially) reduce their costs.

The root cause however is not saving money but incompetence when it comes to managing software development. I have some experience with Chinese software developers myself and it made me want to cry. Every concept of creating quality software and testing was completely alien to them and their bugs reminded me of the ones Siglent and Rigol show. The good Chinese software developers all seem to work in the US and Europe.

I certainly can't dispute that.   But if that's truly the case, then explain GW Instek.   Their developers aren't in the U.S. or Europe, are they?

And in any case, we saw a similar pattern with hardware.   The Chinese initially had a reputation for producing junk hardware.  Today, they're perfectly capable of producing hardware of quite good quality.   And we've seen improvements on the software front as well.   Like it or not, the initial incident rate of bugs seems to be lower now than it was before, and the speed with which bugs are fixed seems to have improved as well.

The Chinese seem to be learning, just like the Japanese before them (the Japanese seem to have a culture of meticulousness that the Chinese lack, however, so the Chinese might not improve as fast as the Japanese did).

[nctnico]

AFAIK GW Instek has their developers in Taiwan (which has not been held back by decades of communism and suppression of creative thinking) but because they are kinda Chinese as well they are in an excellent position to leverage cheap Chinese manufacturing.

[norks]

There's a reason the "B-brand" manufacturers are able to hit substantially lower pricepoints.  Good QC is expensive.  If brands like Siglent were to adopt the QC methods of the "A-brand" manufacturers, how exactly would you expect them to hit their current price targets? 

Another major factor in hitting those price points is reverse engineering the pioneering efforts in the A-brands' products. Big R&D savings there. 

[pascal_sweden]

I wonder where GW-Instek has their designers? Could it be North-Korea?

AFAIK GW Instek has their developers in Taiwan (which has not been held back by decades of communism and suppression of creative thinking) but because they are kinda Chinese as well they are in an excellent position to leverage cheap Chinese manufacturing.

[rstofer]

Anybody found the SDS 1202X-E available for sale in the US?

I would certainly like to see a review; Dave's tear-down was impressive.  This scope, other than channels, could unseat the DS1054Z as THE entry level scope.  200 MHz, free decoding, large screen, less than $400, what's not to like?

[tautech]

Anybody found the SDS 1202X-E available for sale in the US?

I would certainly like to see a review; Dave's tear-down was impressive.  This scope, other than channels, could unseat the DS1054Z as THE entry level scope.  200 MHz, free decoding, large screen, less than $400, what's not to like?

Not released yet, see below:

When will the scope actually be available?

To dealers in the next week or two, then with the time to have them shipped some of us should have them before the end of this month.

[rf-loop]

Anybody found the SDS 1202X-E available for sale in the US?

I would certainly like to see a review; Dave's tear-down was impressive.  This scope, other than channels, could unseat the DS1054Z as THE entry level scope.  200 MHz, free decoding, large screen, less than $400, what's not to like?

Personally I do not like this: Not large screen. It is 7" 800x480
But my eyes are old.

[tautech]

Wonder if FeDex have coughed up the production 200 MHz model at Dave's dumpster yet ?

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Personally I do not like this: Not large screen. It is 7" 800x480

Neither do I, it's a step back.

[coppice]

Personally I do not like this: Not large screen. It is 7" 800x480

Neither do I, it's a step back.

Which entry level scope with a larger screen than 7" or a higher resolution than 800x480 is this a step back from?

[dimkasta]

I was thinking the same thing.
WVGA 800x480 is pretty much standard even on higher end scopes. There are some with 8" screens but the resolution is the same. Not really that a big of an issue.
I could only think of the Micsigs that have 8" 800x600, but they are completely different animals.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Which entry level scope with a larger screen than 7" or a higher resolution than 800x480 is this a step back from?

The SDS1kX (not -E)

[JPortici]

+1 for small screen
let's see the price first... if it'll be cheap as they say i think many won't care that it has a small screen

[dimkasta]

The SDS1kX (not -E)

That's 8" with the same 800x480  resolution

It makes some sense if you have eyesight issues. But if you do not, then you just get bigger pixels and less sharpness.
Not really a technological breakthrough.

[coppice]

Which entry level scope with a larger screen than 7" or a higher resolution than 800x480 is this a step back from?

The SDS1kX (not -E)

That's a more expensive machine. I know lots of more expensive machines with better features.

What $400 scope has a better screen?

[simone.pignatti]

+1 for small screen
let's see the price first... if it'll be cheap as they say i think many won't care that it has a small screen

Price is going to be Euro 359 + taxes
We should be ready to ship out units on last week of April.
As soon as we get units we will make a video testing it with generators.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

It makes some sense if you have eyesight issues.

I do...

But if you do not, then you just get bigger pixels and less sharpness.

By that rule 3" would be even better, a "retina display scope" huh!

BTW, all the rigols have the same screen resolution, but the 1000z's are 7", 2000's are 8", 4000's are 9" and 6000's are 10", JFYI :-)

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

What $400 scope has a better screen?

SDS-1102X    -> 396€ + taxes
SDS-1202X-E -> 359€ + taxes

[simone.pignatti]

What $400 scope has a better screen?

SDS-1102X    -> 396€ + taxes
SDS-1202X-E -> 359€ + taxes

SDS1102X is Euro 475 now discounted at Euro 403,75 (+ taxes)
This promo will end on July the 1st so the difference will be pretty big

[dimkasta]

By that rule 3" would be even better, a "retina display scope" huh!

BTW, all the rigols have the same screen resolution, but the 1000z's are 7", 2000's are 8", 4000's are 9" and 6000's are 10", JFYI :-)

You consider 3" a valid screen size ?

What I said was going bigger size without more resolution increases the pixel size and decreases sharpness. That's a fact even if you put the screen on a 6000  series scope.

Anyway, I get your point. And size can be useful if you want to check it from further away too.
But it's entry level we are talking about. You said it yourself above how the market segments screen sizes to fit market segments.
Going 7" is not a step back. It is business as usual.
Everything else looks like a step forward though

Now let's see how Rigol responds

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Everything else looks like a step forward though

Seeing Dave's video I'm not so sure, it doesn't decode (*) any faster (have you seen a keysight decoding? that's fast!) and the UI seems to be ~ as responsive as the 1000X, not any better afaics. The screen is smaller and 99.9999% of the time I don't need the extra bandwidth.

(*) Too bad Dave doesn't even try to see if the 1000X's serial decoder bug is there too in the X-Es.

[dimkasta]

True

Although Keysights cost almost double the money so not really a fair comparison.

I do not really care for that stuff much either. I just feel that it's time to upgrade my 1052.

I am more interested to see the implementation of features like low/pass/band pass filters and FFT

[simone.pignatti]

True

Although Keysights cost almost double the money so not really a fair comparison.

I do not really care for that stuff much either. I just feel that it's time to upgrade my 1052.

I am more interested to see the implementation of features like low/pass/band pass filters and FFT

Siglent says FFT has 1 Mpts, very curious to test it 

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

True

Although Keysights cost almost double the money so not really a fair comparison.

Even the EDUX1000s' decoders fly, but yes that's ~ $448+$150 kopecks (+taxes?), a bit moar than a Siglent.

[JPortici]

with 2 GS/s (per chan?). Still if it was 2GS/s shared you'd see a difference in waveform stability when looking at fast signals. Keysight is not in the same instrument class

[coppice]

True

Although Keysights cost almost double the money so not really a fair comparison.

Even the EDUX1000s' decoders fly, but yes that's ~ $448+$150 bucks (+taxes?), a bit moar than a Siglent.

That has a 7" screen. Wouldn't you consider it a huge step backwards?

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

That has a 7" screen. Wouldn't you consider it a huge step backwards?

Sure, I would, if the previous generation had come with 8", yes.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

with 2 GS/s (per chan?). Still if it was 2GS/s shared you'd see a difference in waveform stability when looking at fast signals. Keysight is not in the same instrument class

The keysigth 1000Xs would be my choice if it were not for the (lack of) mem depth. And 2 1/2 channels, how cool is that?

[MrW0lf]

Siglent says FFT has 1 Mpts, very curious to test it 

Interesting can FFT sample rate be altered (up to 1G)? Multiple traces?
In this example I presume 100MSa/s => max 50MHz / 95Hz => 500k FFT bins. So not sure which is correct to call it 1M or 500k FFT? Until now I considered FFT "1M" if it has 1M bins (2M points).
BTW is FFT always limited to 0...XHz + "zoom window" analysis in scopes or some advanced ones allow make actual window like on real SAs? This would make having millions of points much less important. Theoretically should be possible... ?

[JPortici]

with 2 GS/s (per chan?). Still if it was 2GS/s shared you'd see a difference in waveform stability when looking at fast signals. Keysight is not in the same instrument class

The keysigth 1000Xs would be my choice if it were not for the (lack of) mem depth. And 2 1/2 channels, how cool is that?

eh, i understand but i have been always able to get around using very tiny memories.. to me 1 MS is plenty. also, we have yet to see if decoding on this one is really done with full 14 MS or it's limited at 1.4 like it's predecessor. higher samplerate and faster decodes (that i'm sure they are working) are my priority. aside from things that this one doesn't have (sig gen, filter app) the keysight is still more fit to my use

but i'm looking forward to see this new siglent always exciting to check out new equipment

[pascal_sweden]

There was a new separate thread created for the SDS1202X-E oscilloscope yesterday.

Maybe it is better to keep everything under this thread, as this thread was the first thread related to this new oscilloscope from Siglent.

[ebastler]

Even the EDUX1000s' decoders fly, but yes that's ~ $448+$150 kopecks (+taxes?), a bit moar than a Siglent.

And 50 vs. 200 MHz bandwidth, right?
If "fast decoders" vs. "4x the bandwidth" would be the only difference, I'm pretty sure I would opt for the Siglent, even if prices were the same...

[simone.pignatti]

I did this table, sorry for the format ... 
It may bring some more info

	SDS1202X-E	EDUX1002A
Bandwidth	200MHz	50MHz
Analog Channels	2	2
Max Real Time Sampling Rate	1GSa/sec	1GSa/sec
Max Memory Depth	14Mpts	100Kpts
FFT	1Mpts	64Kpts
Waveform Capture rate in normal mode	100.000	50.000
Waveform Capture rate in sequence mode	400.000	NO
Serial Trigger and Decode	I²C, SPI, UART/RS232, CAN, LIN (Standard)	I²C, UART/RS232 (Optional)
256-level intensity grading and color temperature display	yes	Only 256-level intensity grading
Vertical Sensitivity	500 uV ~ 10 V	1 mV ~ 10 V 500 uV (20MHz limited)
Timebase	1 ns ~ 100 s	5 ns ~ 50 s
Sequence function	Support, minimum dead time low to 2.5 ?s	NO
History function	Support,  maximum of 80,000 frames can be recorded	NO
Enhanced / high resolution mode	YES	YES
Trigger type	Edge , slope, pulse width, window , Runt, Interval, Dropout, Pattern , video (support HDTV)	Edge, pulse width, video (NTSC, PAL, SECAM and PAM-M), rise/fall time, setup and hold, pattern/state
Auto measurement and statistics	Support 38 Types, 6 Types statistics info: value, mean, min, max, stev, num	Support 28 Types
Pass/Fail (Mask Test)	YES	NO
Interface	USB Host & Device,LAN,AUX (Pass/Fail,Trigger Out)	USB Host & Device
Display	7 inch (800*480), 8*14 grid display	7 inch WVGA, 8*10 grid display
Price	EURO 359 USD 379	EURO 414 USD 448

[simone.pignatti]

There was a new separate thread created for the SDS1202X-E oscilloscope yesterday.

Maybe it is better to keep everything under this thread, as this thread was the first thread related to this new oscilloscope from Siglent.

is it possible to merge the two threads together?

[nctnico]

Even the EDUX1000s' decoders fly, but yes that's ~ $448+$150 kopecks (+taxes?), a bit moar than a Siglent.

And 50 vs. 200 MHz bandwidth, right?
If "fast decoders" vs. "4x the bandwidth" would be the only difference, I'm pretty sure I would opt for the Siglent, even if prices were the same...

Let's see about that when the first in depth reviews are in. IMHO competing on price instead of quality is a sign of desperation. I think the market for low cost, low quality scopes has been pretty much saturated by the Rigol DS1054Z anyway. It seems there is a lot of interest in scopes which can do more and have fewer (no) bugs. See how many people jumped onto the R&S RTB2004 special offer even though it costs over US $2k.

[simone.pignatti]

Even the EDUX1000s' decoders fly, but yes that's ~ $448+$150 kopecks (+taxes?), a bit moar than a Siglent.

And 50 vs. 200 MHz bandwidth, right?
If "fast decoders" vs. "4x the bandwidth" would be the only difference, I'm pretty sure I would opt for the Siglent, even if prices were the same...

Let's see about that when the first in depth reviews are in. IMHO competing on price instead of quality is a sign of desperation. I think the market for low cost, low quality scopes has been pretty much saturated by the Rigol DS1054Z anyway. It seems there is a lot of interest in scopes which can do more and have fewer (no) bugs. See how many people jumped onto the R&S RTB2004 special offer even though it costs over US $2k.

nctnico, I totally agree with you, however the educational market has a big potential for manufacturers who can deliver lot of features for cheap.
when they need to equip a new test lab it may require 10/20/30 scopes and at that point any saved euro or dollar il GOLD.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Let's see about that when the first in depth reviews are in. IMHO competing on price instead of quality is a sign of desperation. I think the market for low cost, low quality scopes has been pretty much saturated by the Rigol DS1054Z anyway. It seems there is a lot of interest in scopes which can do more and have fewer (no) bugs. See how many people jumped onto the R&S RTB2004 special offer even though it costs over US $2k.

That! ^^^^+1

[simone.pignatti]

Let's see about that when the first in depth reviews are in. IMHO competing on price instead of quality is a sign of desperation. I think the market for low cost, low quality scopes has been pretty much saturated by the Rigol DS1054Z anyway. It seems there is a lot of interest in scopes which can do more and have fewer (no) bugs. See how many people jumped onto the R&S RTB2004 special offer even though it costs over US $2k.

That! ^^^^+1

I hear you GeorgeOfTheJungle  hope you can get your R&S soon!

[ebastler]

And 50 vs. 200 MHz bandwidth, right?
If "fast decoders" vs. "4x the bandwidth" would be the only difference, I'm pretty sure I would opt for the Siglent, even if prices were the same...

Let's see about that when the first in depth reviews are in. IMHO competing on price instead of quality is a sign of desperation. I think the market for low cost, low quality scopes has been pretty much saturated by the Rigol DS1054Z anyway. It seems there is a lot of interest in scopes which can do more and have fewer (no) bugs. See how many people jumped onto the R&S RTB2004 special offer even though it costs over US $2k.

Please note that I did say that the Siglent looks good not on a "competing by price" basis, but has a significant performance advantage over the Keysight (namely bandwidth). I agree with you there, to the extent that the price/performance ratio, and the level of performance and quality one needs, should drive the purchase decision; certainly not price alone.

On the other hand, the "bugs" topic is vastly inflated by a few users here. (Yes, I know, GW Instek rules...) And I believe that people bought the R&S because the promo deal looked like an offer you can't refuse, if you happen to be in the market for a scope. Let's see how many people value the R&S quality (nice screen, nice knobs and all) at the regular price, or where the market price eventually settles.

[Villain]

they claim its a 1MP fft which it is. they never claimed that it is an 1M bins fft

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

On the other hand, the "bugs" topic is vastly inflated by a few users here.

The sds1kx serial decoder bug is very real and a show stopper for me. It's great to buy cheapo if it ~ works better or worse as the 1000z (sluggish, but does the job), but not so great if it doesn't at all as that siglent. I've had to return it even though I still like it very much, fast responsive and a gorgeous display, but sadly not what I was looking for as it can't decode properly.

[pascal_sweden]

Not sure. But easiest solution is to start using this thread again, as it is the oldest.

[MrW0lf]

they claim its a 1MP fft which it is. they never claimed that it is an 1M bins fft

Claim is indeed correct, that means my scope has 2MP FFT, despite being speced as 1MP
But they also list 1GSa/s scopes on Farnell as 250MSa/s so indeed, why not downgrade FFT spec as well

[ebastler]

Not sure. But easiest solution is to start using this thread again, as it is the oldest.

Unfortunately it's not the oldest thread which shows up first in the forum's topic list, but the one with the most recent post... And people who have already posted to the other thread will come back to it because it will show up in their "new replies to your posts" list. So I'm afraid that second thread is here to stay -- we will survive that...

[pascal_sweden]

FYI:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-based-on-xilinx-zynq-7000-soc-architecture/msg1180403/#msg1180403

[pascal_sweden]

I have written a remark in the other thread. Maybe this will help

[rf-loop]

Here data sheet pdf until downloadable from Siglent web side.

[ebastler]

Here data sheet pdf until downloadable from Siglent web side.

Thanks. Not sure whether this has been discussed before: How does the scope handle SPI decoding (SCL, MISO, MOSI, CS) with just two inputs?

[simone.pignatti]

view/download PDF data sheet
http://www.batterfly.com/PDF/Siglent/siglent-sds1202xe-datasheet.pdf

view/download PDF user manual
http://www.batterfly.com/PDF/Siglent/SDS1000X-E_UserManul_UM0101E-E02A.pdf

[simone.pignatti]

Here data sheet pdf until downloadable from Siglent web side.

Thanks. Not sure whether this has been discussed before: How does the scope handle SPI decoding (SCL, MISO, MOSI, CS) with just two inputs?

we are collecting test requirements for running test as soon as the units arrive.
feel free to ask! 

[JPortici]

Here data sheet pdf until downloadable from Siglent web side.

Thanks. Not sure whether this has been discussed before: How does the scope handle SPI decoding (SCL, MISO, MOSI, CS) with just two inputs?

i would assume scl + miso (or mosi) + timeout
unless in the meantime they added the third digital channel

view/download PDF data sheet
http://www.batterfly.com/PDF/Siglent/siglent-sds1202xe-datasheet.pdf

see that UART trigger is 334000 bps max! okay, trigger.. one can get around it
no mention for uart decode max baud rate

besides SPI have a good look at the uart decode, if it can decode 115200 reliably and how high can it be

[tautech]

Here data sheet pdf until downloadable from Siglent web side.

There is an error near the end, Optional Accessories should start at where the last Standard accessory CD is listed.

[simone.pignatti]

Here data sheet pdf until downloadable from Siglent web side.

There is an error near the end, Optional Accessories should start at where the last Standard accessory CD is listed.

We also noticed that, but when looking better there is a very thin line which divides standard form optionals

[MrW0lf]

True Measurement to 14 Mpoints
At any one timebase, the SDS1000X-E can measure using all 14M sample points. This ensures the accuracy of measurements while the math co-processor decreases measurement time and increases ease-of-use

Poor mans Tek?

[rf-loop]

Yes it need bit clarify.

[ebastler]

Not sure whether this has been discussed before: How does the scope handle SPI decoding (SCL, MISO, MOSI, CS) with just two inputs?

i would assume scl + miso (or mosi) + timeout
unless in the meantime they added the third digital channel

That might work, but they explicitly list all four signals, including chip select. If you want to use that in the decoding, it seems that you can't get away with just two channels.

And the manual (page 86 ff.) bluntly explains how to set up all four signals, one after the other. Does this section refer to a different scope?

Setup for SPI Signals
Setting the SPI (Serial Peripheral Interface) signal includes two steps: connecting the
CLK, MISO, MOSI and CS signals to oscilloscope; specifying the parameters of each
input signal.

[rf-loop]

Here data sheet pdf until downloadable from Siglent web side.

Thanks. Not sure whether this has been discussed before: How does the scope handle SPI decoding (SCL, MISO, MOSI, CS) with just two inputs?

It can not do all simultaneously.
It can: SCL,  MISO  or   SCL, MOSI 
CS Type: SCL (CLK) time out.
SPI function is limited due to only 2 signal.

It looks like User manual need more accurate personalize for SDS1000X and SDS1000X-E models for SPI but also some other things.
Only SDS1000X+ can use all  together: CLK, CS,  MOSI, MISO

[JPortici]

isn't the manual also the same for sds2000x?

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

I don't see no area measurements (mVs / Vs) ? Even the 1000z has that. You use that to derive mAs/mAh from a current sense signal.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

There are other things I don't see nowhere in the pdfs:

-What's the max mem depth when the decoder in on? (it was 1.4MB (not 14!) in the 1000X)
-Can it decode up to 100ms/div sweep rate or just at 20ms/div max as the 1000X?

[rf-loop]

There are other things I don't see nowhere in the pdfs:

-What's the max mem depth when the decoder in on? (it was 1.4MB (not 14!) in the 1000X)
-Can it decode up to 100ms/div sweep rate or just at 20ms/div max as the 1000X?

Up to 14 M points trigger and decode. (It reads in product introduction ppt)
At the moment, until further notice, max is 20ms/div.

[JPortici]

Up to 14 M points trigger and decode. (It reads in product introduction ppt)

that's nice.

[tautech]

Comparison table against GW attached.
(not prepared by tautech)

[pascal_sweden]

It will be interesting to see if the hardware architecture can be reverse engineered, and if it is possible to do your own software projects on this scope.

Forum user "wingel" is from Sweden and did this for the Owon SDS7102 oscilloscope:
http://hackaday.com/2016/06/29/reverse-engineering-the-owon-sds7102-oscilloscope/

[Fungus]

I wonder if it comes with the C++ compiler on board. 

(and VIM.  )

[Rolo]

Got a mail today from siglent.eu that the SDS1202 is avaliable for pre-order. Just for info, have no relation with seller.
Price is ex VAT (BTW in The Netherlands)

[pascal_sweden]

That photo is incorrect.

The screen is too big. It shows the LA slot, and a blue print button. The USB is not on the right of the selection buttons.

[rf-loop]

That photo is incorrect.

The screen is too big. It shows the LA slot, and a blue print button. The USB is not on the right of the selection buttons.

Really weird they use totally wrong image.   Siglent  head office have shared right images to distributors.
Selling with wrong image is least fraudulent

Here official images (resized/cropped to small size by me)

[pascal_sweden]

Why do the feet on the back of the oscilloscope have a curved slope? Is that also with the other Siglent oscilloscopes? First time that I see this, actually

[ebastler]

That photo is incorrect.

No worries, that's the new Silgent scope in the picture, not the Siglent... 
Welcome to the land of pluses and pulses, Siglent!

[tautech]

That photo is incorrect.

No worries, that's the new Silgent scope in the picture, not the Siglent... 
Welcome to the land of pluses and pulses, Siglent!

FYI
http://www.siglent.eu/ IS NOT http://www.siglenteu.com/index.aspx
They are a distributor not the Hamburg branch of Siglent.

[StillTrying]

Why do the feet on the back of the oscilloscope have a curved slope? Is that also with the other Siglent oscilloscopes? First time that I see this, actually

So that the back feet stay in contact with the surface when extending the front feet as in the 3rd photo ?

They look near enough identical to the CML+, but at least on the CML+ what looks like soft rubber to stop it sliding back when you press a button is actually just textured plastic - so it does slide back!

[pascal_sweden]

We should get this oscilloscope for Christer Weinigel!

[thanasisk]

Available for preorder for 359E +vat

But no details on actual or approx shipping date!

http://www.siglent.eu/sds1202x-e.html

[EEVblog]

Threads merged.

[ProBang2]

Why do the feet on the back of the oscilloscope have a curved slope? Is that also with the other Siglent oscilloscopes? First time that I see this, actually

Because this feets and the two support posts (at the upper corners of the backside) are there, it is possible to lay the oscilloscope flat on the back.
Would be making much more sense with a mobile (battery driven) unit...   

[EEVblog]

Why do the feet on the back of the oscilloscope have a curved slope? Is that also with the other Siglent oscilloscopes? First time that I see this, actually

Because this feets and the two support posts (at the upper corners of the backside) are there, it is possible to lay the oscilloscope flat on the back.
Would be making much more sense with a mobile (battery driven) unit...   

Conformed that it sits nicely flat and the rubber feet stop it moving on the bench when flat. Mains cord comes out the side.

[thanasisk]

Dave you forgot to take out and check the fan in your teardown video! 

Is it noisy as usual?

[tautech]

Dave you forgot to take out and check the fan in your teardown video! 

Is it noisy as usual?

Compared to what ? 
If it was I'm sure Dave would've noticed and mentioned it.

[pascal_sweden]

In general Siglent is much quieter than Rigol. No worries

[thanasisk]

Rigol, micsig, keysight..  are all too noisy

Cannot find any noise spec for the siglent unfortunately.. This should definitely be in the datasheet (like R&S scopes)!

[Electro Fan]

Sorry for nitpicking, but please use the term "bps" (bits per second) when you're talking about the data rate. Seeing "Baud" on the scope's screen is . Baud is the symbol rate. A symbol can be the equivalent of muliple bits. Take QAM64 for example, a single symbol of QAM64 transports 6 bits. So a symbol rate of 1kbaud is a data rate of 6kbps.

In the context of UART data. Everyone uses baud. To use anything else would be confusing

Why would bps be confusing in the context of UART? Thx

[Jono427]

Anyone heard about a more definitive date for release on this thing yet?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Sorry for nitpicking, but please use the term "bps" (bits per second) when you're talking about the data rate. Seeing "Baud" on the scope's screen is . Baud is the symbol rate. A symbol can be the equivalent of muliple bits. Take QAM64 for example, a single symbol of QAM64 transports 6 bits. So a symbol rate of 1kbaud is a data rate of 6kbps.

In the context of UART data. Everyone uses baud. To use anything else would be confusing

Why would bps be confusing in the context of UART? Thx

Because someone might think that bps meant data bits per second ( =baud*0.8 with 8N1)

[thanasisk]

Should be really soon..Just saw it at batronix with 1-4 days availability..


http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1202X-E.html

[madires]

Why would bps be confusing in the context of UART? Thx

Because someone might think that bps meant data bits per second ( =baud*0.8 with 8N1)

Isn't the concept of gross and net data rates well known by engineers?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Why would bps be confusing in the context of UART? Thx

Because someone might think that bps meant data bits per second ( =baud*0.8 with 8N1)

Isn't the concept of gross and net data rates well known by engineers?

Yes, as long as it is specified which you are talking about. "Baud" always means bit times on the wire. "bps" may or may not, depending on context

[fonograph]

Will it have same low noise front end like the original non e  version? The reason I want tombuy this is I need scope to look that can that is good at low level stuff like 1mV or even lower,from all the budget scope this one seems lowest noise but since its cheaper than sds1102x,it have different board inside I wonder if its as good as 1102x when it comes to noise level.

if someone have both scopes,someone like tauntech or rf-loop if you have both sds1202x and sds1202x-e,set it to full bandwidth,no eres/averaging and similiar memory and  persistance settings,makes a screenshots and post it here side by side so I can see if its similiar or different

[tautech]

I'll have some next week and I have X on hand so I'll check the front end out but I suspect it's the same as X and X+. Nothing in the datasheets leads me to think otherwise.

[TheAmmoniacal]

Damn it's hard not buying this over the competition, too bad Keysight and R&S do so little to compete. Been asking every Keysight and R&S distributor around if they can throw in an option for free, none are interested 

[ebastler]

Damn it's hard not buying this over the competition, too bad Keysight and R&S do so little to compete. Been asking every Keysight and R&S distributor around if they can throw in an option for free, none are interested 

"Look, R&S, there's this new $400 very-low-cost scope from Siglent out now. Shouldn't you give me a discount or some free options on your $2000+ scope?!"
Nice try! 

[TheAmmoniacal]

Damn it's hard not buying this over the competition, too bad Keysight and R&S do so little to compete. Been asking every Keysight and R&S distributor around if they can throw in an option for free, none are interested 

"Look, R&S, there's this new $400 very-low-cost scope from Siglent out now. Shouldn't you give me a discount or some free options on your $2000+ scope?!"
Nice try! 

Their HMO1002 was only €750! Same as the DSOX1102A! The Siglent X-E will end up costing me around €467, and I'm willing to spend to spend the additional €300 for the brand alone (and everything that comes with it). But if I then have to pay the bus decoding option on top, for which R&S quoted me €325  and Keysight want €175  . It makes the jump difficult.

I even found the HMO1002 discounted by 20% on their webshop (demo product), which I actually ordered. But the order got cancelled, not in stock!





 

[nctnico]

Damn it's hard not buying this over the competition, too bad Keysight and R&S do so little to compete. Been asking every Keysight and R&S distributor around if they can throw in an option for free, none are interested 

I don't think Keysight and R&S see Siglent as serious competition when it comes to oscilloscopes. Besides that the SDS1000X-E only has two channels where the competition (which isn't just R&S and Keysight) has four channel models as well.

[Orange]

Damn it's hard not buying this over the competition, too bad Keysight and R&S do so little to compete. Been asking every Keysight and R&S distributor around if they can throw in an option for free, none are interested 

I don't think Keysight and R&S see Siglent as serious competition when it comes to oscilloscopes. Besides that the SDS1000X-E only has two channels where the competition (which isn't just R&S and Keysight) has four channel models as well.

The Keysight DSOX1000 has only 2 channels, so a direct competitor to the Siglent SDS1000X-E series.

I have been watching the stock amount since it was released from a major european dealer (Distrilec) and the Keysight MSOX1000 does not sell, or very little.
I think it is overpriced, and the options come on top of that. Same as with the new Tek TBS....

Time for a price adaption if you ask me.

[thanasisk]

Don't also forget the BW offered by each model (the price of the R&S 50 MHz is ridiculous)..

The new siglent hopefully sets a new paradigm on how to treat your customers, not only by not overcharging you for  many small options but on top by offering all the options unlocked by default! Hopefully they will follow this business model with their higher end models as well.

Apparently the R&S/Keysight etc. competition are still living in the stone age before the diy revolution and, given the prices and license models, are not addressing retail (hobbyists and small companies where price and quality equally matter) but only business sales and education (where no VAT is paid and big budgets have to be drained by the end of the year..)

[JPortici]

eh, the Keysight ticks more boxes in my list (siglent has low samplerate, 200 MHz @500MS/s is a no-no, no wavegen + filter app, no third digital channel)
IF and i say IF they did the complete E+ version with MSO and wavegen i would have considered it

but it doesn't exist yet so i keep eyeing the keysight waiting for another paycheck or two

[Fungus]

The new siglent hopefully sets a new paradigm on how to treat your customers, not only by not overcharging you for  many small options but on top by offering all the options unlocked by default! Hopefully they will follow this business model with their higher end models as well.

Apparently the R&S/Keysight etc. competition are still living in the stone age before the diy revolution and, given the prices and license models, are not addressing retail (hobbyists and small companies where price and quality equally matter) but only business sales and education (where no VAT is paid and big budgets have to be drained by the end of the year..)

It's hard to believe they can sit and watch Rigol shipping tens of thousands of oscilloscopes and decide to do nothing about it.

Then again, we don't know how much they make from draining those big budgets.

Thumbs up to Siglent though. 

(The only remaining advantage of the Rigol DS1054Z is four channels. If Siglent can make the external trigger BNC into a third digital channel like Keysight did...they'll clean up IMHO. The Rigol won't have a leg left to stand on)

[Fungus]

eh, the Keysight ticks more boxes in my list

Sure, but it's at least twice the price.

[nctnico]

eh, the Keysight ticks more boxes in my list

Sure, but it's at least twice the price.

Sometimes it is worth spending the extra money to get a tool which works well.

[mikeselectricstuff]

eh, the Keysight ticks more boxes in my list

Sure, but it's at least twice the price.

Sometimes it is worth spending the extra money to get a tool which works well.

Sometimes it's just enjoyable to have nice things.
Do you drive the cheapest car you can afford, or eat the cheapest food?

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

but on top by offering all the options unlocked by default

Don't be so quick to tick the decoder option yet because it does not chooch, not properly.

[Fungus]

eh, the Keysight ticks more boxes in my list

Sure, but it's at least twice the price.

Sometimes it is worth spending the extra money to get a tool which works well.

Sometimes it's just enjoyable to have nice things.
Do you drive the cheapest car you can afford, or eat the cheapest food?

Yes, but I don't directly compare the two and disparage the cheaper one. The cheaper one can have more bang per buck.

[madires]

Isn't the concept of gross and net data rates well known by engineers?

Yes, as long as it is specified which you are talking about. "Baud" always means bit times on the wire. "bps" may or may not, depending on context

I think this whole baud vs. bps mess is caused by a misunderstanding regarding POTS modems during the BBS' heydays. Back then everone talked about baud rates. Even with faster modems like 9600 or 14400bps they kept using the term baud, despite those modems were still running only 2400 baud. And if a symbol carries only one bit (UART), it becomes harder to unterstand the difference since the values are the same. This reminds me of Ohm's law and an 1 Ohm resistor

[chipss]

Wonder how fft will look on this unit? Usable?

[JPortici]

eh, the Keysight ticks more boxes in my list

Sure, but it's at least twice the price.

and all those ticks are worth at least that much because, you know, i need them. I was prepared to spend (reluctantly) the same amount money on the siglent 2000 before the keysight came out

it's not only because i want nice things now that i can afford them, if i spend less for another tool but the tool is not up to the job i actually wasted the money i spent on it. simple as that
and even if the cheaper tool can somehow do the same thing, but makes it harder for me? my time is worth so much more in the end.

PS: why don't you stop this nonsense? you know it's  either way for both of us

[Fungus]

and all those ticks are worth at least that much because, you know, i need them. I was prepared to spend (reluctantly) the same amount money on the siglent 2000 before the keysight came out

it's not only because i want nice things now that i can afford them, if i spend less for another tool but the tool is not up to the job i actually wasted the money i spent on it. simple as that
and even if the cheaper tool can somehow do the same thing, but makes it harder for me? my time is worth so much more in the end.

Sure, it's just terminology.

You can say things like, "I think the Keysight is worth the extra money" instead of "The Keysight is better". 

The Keysight isn't demonstrably "better" for everybody. 

(not until we live in a Star Trek world where everything is free thanks to replicators)

[tautech]

Wonder how fft will look on this unit? Usable?

If Dave still has the production model that he's been sent we hope he'll release a first impressions vid in the next few days before we get our stock. As the 1 Mpts X-E FFT has well publicised one would expect he'll have a good look at that feature and the 500uV front end at least.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

If Dave still has the production model that he's been sent [...] one would expect he'll have a good look at that feature and [...].

And at cough the cough serial decoder cough cough :-)

@Dave: *please* check the decoder @ (at least) 115200 baud *AND* @50 ms/div or more (if it lets you do that!) then zoom in.

[tautech]

If Dave still has the production model that he's been sent [...] one would expect he'll have a good look at that feature and [...].

And at cough the cough serial decoder cough cough :-)

@Dave: *please* check the decoder @ (at least) 115200 baud *AND* @50 ms/div or more (if it lets you do that!) then zoom in.

What we don't know yet George is how the additional grunt of the processor in X-E will eventually be utilised and now much further functionality might be added or even how existing functionality will be improved. Until we get X-E in our hot little hands and put them to so tests we just can't say. What I can say is your issues are in front of the engineers to be addressed but IMO the X-E FW will be similar to existing X and further improvements will come on future FW.
If you have additional info and screenshots etc you'd like me to pass along feel free to PM them to me or post them in the 1kX thread. The better the info they have the better job they can do. 

[rstofer]

Do all the encoders have detents?  Especially the Select encoder?

I really like the fact that the front panel describes exactly what pushing an encoder actually does.

[tautech]

Do all the encoders have detents?

 
Not all. Timebase and V/div, yes.

Especially the Select encoder?

Not in any of Siglents existing models. There has been a lot of work done with software acceleration but fine adjustments are quite acceptable. Each user will have a different opinion. When selecting changes in Menus that menu button can also be used for that purpose with addition/toggling pushes. Works fine for a small # of items in a menu but for large menus the Multipurpose knob need be used.

In some cases there is a virtual keyboard for selection of values and when in use the Multifunction knob scrolls through it and selection is made with a push.
IIRC rf-loop posted a screenshot of the virtual keyboard in the SDS1000X thread.

I really like the fact that the front panel describes exactly what pushing an encoder actually does.

Common to all Siglent models.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

IIRC rf-loop posted a screenshot of the virtual keyboard in the SDS1000X thread.

It's also in Dave's video: https://youtube.com/watch?v=11-AQ_E1fz8&t=1m53s

[sianturi]

Looks like this one will be my first oscilloscope. I'm waiting for the hands-on review, especially for the fw bugs... 

[rstofer]

Do all the encoders have detents?

 

Not all. Timebase and V/div, yes.

One of the two big complaints re: the Rigol DS1054Z is the fact that the Select encoder doesn't have detents and the selection sometimes bobbles when the knob is depressed.

We'll have to see what the reviewers have to say.  Maybe it is less of an issue than on the Rigol.

I can see where acceleration would be awkward with an encoder with detents.

Design choices...

[tautech]

Do all the encoders have detents?

 

Not all. Timebase and V/div, yes.

One of the two big complaints re: the Rigol DS1054Z is the fact that the Select encoder doesn't have detents and the selection sometimes bobbles when the knob is depressed.

The Siglent's can suffer the same problem but you don't have to use the Multifunction control for all selections, in fact for quick selection I just use the menu button to toggle/jump down the menu list.
You've had to press the menu button anyway so why not leave your finger there and toggle to the next selection. 

Going way back when the 1052E came out a common mod was the "Rigol knob swap"; using one of the larger knobs from one of the other controls as it improves the fine selectability when working with menus. I've tried it in the past on Siglent's but prefer now to use the original knobs in their default positions.

Design choices...

Yep, show me the perfect scope and we can all find some fault with it.

[pascal_sweden]

Going way back when the 1052E came out a common mod was the "Rigol knob swap"; using one of the larger knobs from one of the other controls as it improves the fine selectability when working with menus. I've tried it in the past on Siglent's but prefer now to use the original knobs in their default positions.

"Rigol knob swap" on a "Siglent oscilloscope".

Where two vendors meet each other in creativity!

[tautech]

Going way back when the 1052E came out a common mod was the "Rigol knob swap"; using one of the larger knobs from one of the other controls as it improves the fine selectability when working with menus. I've tried it in the past on Siglent's but prefer now to use the original knobs in their default positions.

"Rigol knob swap" on a "Siglent oscilloscope".

Didn't work for me, they can keep it as one of their special features. 

[nctnico]

One of the two big complaints re: the Rigol DS1054Z is the fact that the Select encoder doesn't have detents and the selection sometimes bobbles when the knob is depressed.

Rest assured that this problem isn't a typical Rigol issue. I very much prefer a seperate select button.

[chipss]

 Asking about FFT, and this unit, a cut and paste from youtube, if we only knew what all goes on behind the red curtain.


dragonfly333yyt11 hours agoHighlighted reply

Okay,I will do in future.sorry,but plz wait.
I begin to write the review in Japanese(sorry),but I up  some pictutes of FFT view.FFT 1MB is some extent good,now we can use persist,and max hold function,but the resolution is limited up to 100MH/div.For instance,we can't do resolution 10MHz/div.I have already reported it to Siglent.anyway,plz look at this page.Thanks.

[radhaz]

A review:
http://blog.goo.ne.jp/electronics_diy_5/e/fa05231ca66c31f2cd17817c6dab0675

[ebclr]

take a look on tek is better value than Keisight, at least measuments does not change when you zoon in a scale like keysight does

http://www.newark.com/tektronix-tbs2000-oscilloscope

[sianturi]

take a look on tek is better value than Keisight, at least measuments does not change when you zoon in a scale like keysight does

http://www.newark.com/tektronix-tbs2000-oscilloscope

2 ch @ US$ 1200 !!!

[TheAmmoniacal]

take a look on tek is better value than Keisight, at least measuments does not change when you zoon in a scale like keysight does

http://www.newark.com/tektronix-tbs2000-oscilloscope

2 ch @ US$ 1200 !!!

I really hope nobody buys that Tek  .. I mean, does it have anything going for it?

[mikeselectricstuff]

take a look on tek is better value than Keisight, at least measuments does not change when you zoon in a scale like keysight does

http://www.newark.com/tektronix-tbs2000-oscilloscope

2 ch @ US$ 1200 !!!

I really hope nobody buys that Tek  .. I mean, does it have anything going for it?

Does any tek scope have anything going for it these days?

[rstofer]

A Tek scope roughly equivalent to the Rigol DS1054Z (4 ch 100 MHz, etc) is about $2100
http://www.newark.com/tektronix/tbs2104/oscilloscope-4-ch-100mhz-1gsps/dp/85Y2798

I don't want to chase specs down a rathole so I'll concede right up front that the Tek is probably a better scope.  Still, it's 5x the cost!

[coppice]

Having only 4 clocks per bit will severely hamper the (digital) filtering and timing recovery a UART usually does. Why do you think a UART is typically designed to need 16 clocks per bit?

The use of a 16 times clock in UARTs stems from early FSK modems, which demodulated the signal, and output it without any cleanup. This means they could massively distort the mark space ratio of the signal under some signal conditions. There are still some UART applications like that, where asymmetric line drive behaviour (e.g. current loops) can distort the mark space ratio.

If you know the mark to space ratio will be fairly accurate, you only need to sample "somewhere" in the midst of each bit. A x4 clock is fine for things like that.

[tautech]

I now have SDS1202X-E. 
Fan noise and 500uV baseline noise ~same as SDS1kX models.
The unit is a little more compact than 1kX and + models.

.png file type for Save/Print is now default. 

4 mV 500 Hz. Note, this is lowest output on my old SDG1010 so V/div Fine was used to set 620 uV to have all the waveform on the display.



More:
Source SDG1032X----Tek 10:1 attenuator


Eres

FFT

[pascal_sweden]

The TBS2000 series from Tektronix is a plain joke!

take a look on tek is better value than Keisight, at least measuments does not change when you zoon in a scale like keysight does

http://www.newark.com/tektronix-tbs2000-oscilloscope

[boggis the cat]

Do you have pricing yet?  (NZ pricing.)

[tautech]

Do you have pricing yet?  (NZ pricing.)

Yep.
It's based on the US$ 379 mentioned in this thread and Dave's teardown vid but as our $ is only 0.7 of US$. 
But it still works out pretty darn good for a 200 MHz DSO. 
PM sent.

[ebclr]

359 E + tax

http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1202X-E.html

[fonograph]

thank you very much tautech for the screenshots.The FFT looks same on both scopes and since 1000x is only 16k bins maximum while x-e is 1 million,it looks like x-e was set to 16k bin instead of its maximum.Could you please compare  both with same settings,3 bit eres,no averaging and 1000hz square wave,with only difference that the new x-e will have the maximum fft bins enabled.

[MrW0lf]

df=476.84Hz. He is running at 500k FFT bins. Note horizontal scale also.

[tautech]

thank you very much tautech for the screenshots.The FFT looks same on both scopes and since 1000x is only 16k bins maximum while x-e is 1 million,it looks like x-e was set to 16k bin instead of its maximum.Could you please compare  both with same settings,3 bit eres,no averaging and 1000hz square wave,with only difference that the new x-e will have the maximum fft bins enabled.

You're welcome.
What I did notice when making that shot while going through the settings to get that classic FFT plot was throughout adjustments there was indeed much more information on the display than with the X models. While the display on X_E is 1" smaller it has the same resolution as X series units.

df=476.84Hz. He is running at 500k FFT bins. Note horizontal scale also.

Thanks for pointing this out.


I'm happy to put up more to request as my time allows.
Easy and fast now that .png file type is default. :-)

[tautech]

All the info for SDS1202X-E is just been posted on Siglent websites.
China:
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/prodcut-detailxx.aspx?id=1908&tid=1&T=2
USA:
http://siglentamerica.com/prodcut-detailxx.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2
Hamburg:
http://www.siglenteu.com/prodcut-detailxx.aspx?id=2771&tid=1&T=2

You can drill down into each website to find your local suppliers.

[xrunner]

Color temperature mode is interesting.

[tautech]

Color temperature mode is interesting.

It is. It's an enhancement of intensity grading that reveals the frequency of variations in a waveform somewhat better than just intensity grading.
It's incorporated in the existing models already, models in the 1000X, 2000 and 2000X ranges have had it from day one.
I think my STB3 (Siglent test board) has got some good waveforms to show it's features so I'll stick some up when I've got a free mo.

Edit. (Free mo)
Colour grading of a pulse with a tonne of jitter on the falling edge

[tautech]

A new thing discovered.
The Power button now only requires a short press to begin the turn off process and then the display has a Wait graphic while the DSO shuts down. Much better than needing to hold the power button down until it shuts down as other models do. 

Not new but a shot of All Measure with Ch 1 selected:



Another showing just one measurement selected from the 38 available.
Statistics also on and counting.

[tautech]

More little things found.
The 200 MHz switchable probes of course have the little ground spring as normal these days and in addition to that the probe tip to BNC adapter is also included in each probe package.

There is a new additional small round button at bottom left of the display marked Menu On/Off.
A description of its function I hope can make sense to readers:

Looking at the screenshot below (used previous post) this button removes the otherwise permanent function menu (soft key menu) from the bottom of the display. Doing so frees space from the working part of the display, the waveform area if you like and so offers somewhere where measurements can reside without hindering or obscuring the working area of the display.

[tautech]

Some simple I²C Decode:



Here I have the Menu Off activated and the Decode menus are totally hidden but available at the push of a button.
(mentioned in previous post)

IMO it would be nice in this mode for the Decode line/s to drop into the now vacant Menu space and off the active working part of the display.

[tautech]

Some more Decode fiddling and findings:
UART



So let's Scroll to the end of the decoded list and what do we find ?
Hint
Check the Timebase setting, Trigger position and the timestamp on each bit of data in the list. 
Hehe, we've got packets decoded off screen.

[pascal_sweden]

You are blessed to be a Siglent distributor!
Being able to play with new stuff as it arrives and get first hands-on experience ... slightly jealous now!

Where can I sign up as an official Beta tester to help testing products that are already released?
The community could help out in an official way to test out a new beta software version, using an official bug tracking system, such as JIRA, Bugzilla or ClearDDTS.

[Paul Moir]

Any work on the EXT input a la Keysight 1000 X series?  I could definitely live with 2 analog + 1 digital channel.

[tautech]

You are blessed to be a Siglent distributor!

Being able to play with new stuff as it arrives and get first hands-on experience ... slightly jealous now!

Sometimes.

Products are greatly improved on past releases and I am privileged to have these units so quickly from the factory to be able to share my simple findings with you all.
They are the plain and simple things I think I would want to know before buying equipment. Does it work ? How can you do this ? What is different from what we have seen before ?

That I can be in business as a small distributor (NZ only) and follow my passion for equipment and handling brand spanking new models is really how I am blessed. But we sometimes have to take the good with the bad but so far the SDS1202X-E looks all good. 

I look forward to rf-loop's detailed reports on these units when he has some time and until he has I will just try to show some more features and functionality.

Requests ?

Any work on the EXT input a la Keysight 1000 X series?  I could definitely live with 2 analog + 1 digital channel.

I'll look into it.

Edit
Sadly not enabled Paul.

[Jono427]

Took the dive the other day and ordered my 1202X-E from Saelig (will be my first scope).  Looks like they just shipped it and I should have it on Monday!

[TK]

Any work on the EXT input a la Keysight 1000 X series?  I could definitely live with 2 analog + 1 digital channel.

It is a combination of both HW and SW.  Keysight 1000X has a dedicated EXTERNAL button that activates/deactivates this channel, set probe attenuation, set threshold level.  There is also additional HW components on the EXT input section (it is not a simple EXTERNAL TRIGGER INPUT).

[rstofer]

Took the dive the other day and ordered my 1202X-E from Saelig (will be my first scope).  Looks like they just shipped it and I should have it on Monday!

I didn't think the dealers would have stock this early.  Congratulations!

I look forward to reading your impressions.  It's a heck of a price for a 200 MHz scope and it seems like it has a ton of features.

[Jono427]

I didn't think the dealers would have stock this early.

Neither did I.  Saw it on their site Monday afternoon and emailed them asking if they had a ship date yet.  They said that they didn't have an exact date, but that they had a shipment in transit and would ship as soon as they got them.  Apparently that was yesterday.

[tautech]

Took the dive the other day and ordered my 1202X-E from Saelig (will be my first scope).  Looks like they just shipped it and I should have it on Monday!

I didn't think the dealers would have stock this early.  Congratulations!

I look forward to reading your impressions.  It's a heck of a price for a 200 MHz scope and it seems like it has a ton of features.

Little dealers like me can get a shipment airfreight from the factory in just a few days and I got a jump on some well before release date was announced.
Orders that are m³'s are not cost efficient to get by air so shipping can take a few weeks longer.

I think Jono427 will be pretty happy with it and I hope he doesn't get lost in the features. 

I've got one going to a YT reviewer and EEVblog member this weekend, he already has a Siglent so it should be straightforward for him to get to grips with.

Any work on the EXT input a la Keysight 1000 X series?  I could definitely live with 2 analog + 1 digital channel.

It is a combination of both HW and SW.  Keysight 1000X has a dedicated EXTERNAL button that activates/deactivates this channel, set probe attenuation, set threshold level.  There is also additional HW components on the EXT input section (it is not a simple EXTERNAL TRIGGER INPUT).

I think this IS the case however I'll follow it up as I too think it can be a very useful feature.

[KingDD83]

Neither did I.  Saw it on their site Monday afternoon and emailed them asking if they had a ship date yet.  They said that they didn't have an exact date, but that they had a shipment in transit and would ship as soon as they got them.  Apparently that was yesterday.

I ordered mine from Saelig Tuesday night and it shipped Wednesday.  I did free shipping, but I'm near Pittsburgh PA so not too far from their offices.  Due to show up tomorrow.  (I'm surprised that emoticon is labeled as scared, I always thought of it as excited  )

I was wishing I would've ordered when I first saw it pop up on their site, but if they didn't have any until Wednesday, I don't feel bad anymore.

It'll be my first real scope (I have one of those cheap DSO kits that I never used much).

[tautech]

I ordered mine from Saelig Tuesday night and it shipped Wednesday.  I did free shipping, but I'm near Pittsburgh PA so not too far from their offices.  Due to show up tomorrow.  (I'm surprised that emoticon is labeled as scared, I always thought of it as excited  )

I was wishing I would've ordered when I first saw it pop up on their site, but if they didn't have any until Wednesday, I don't feel bad anymore.

It'll be my first real scope (I have one of those cheap DSO kits that I never used much).

works for me as excited...dual use emoli. 

Enjoy your first proper scope King.

[tautech]

A new and very welcome feature that I've not seen before in Siglent scopes.
User definable Default setup.

How many times have you turned on your DSO to do something quite different from the last time you used it ?
Often I bet.
How long does it take to return channels, trigger settings, delay, input attenuation etc. to some setting you know is an approximate good starting point or do you just punch the Default setup button ?

Oh wait, now the timebase has been set to some setting way off from where you need it and the channel attenuation has be set to the default 1x. 
We all use our probes on 10:1, right ?

Well the X-E has come to our rescue with a simple interface to save ALL OUR favourite Default settings, yep, whatever you like. 
Tune your X-E to your favourite settings and follow the syntax below.

Save/Recall button, select Save Type: To Default Key and then toggle the next key to Current Setup and then press Save.

Don't like it, toggle from Current Setup back to Factory Default.
Easy.




Edit.
Just to say this feature does not change any settings at power on boot, it is only to customise Default setup if the user requires their own custom Default settings.

[nctnico]

Well lots of scopes have the ability to restore presets so it is not an unprecedented feature. Actually being able to screw up the default settings isn't a very good idea because it usually is the resque button if a scope is doing something completely unexpected.

[TK]

Default key should be used to set the scope to a well known "default" state.  At boot time, scope should keep the settings it had before shutdown, like Keysight scopes.  If you want to save specific settings, you should be able to store/retrieve settings.

[nctnico]

FYI: In many automated test setups the default command is send first and then the necessary settings are made.

[ELKING]

I got pre ordered SDS1202X-E today in Slovenia 

[ELKING]

Can anyone verify if it has the same bright right edge of the LCD screen?

[TK]

In terms of UI responsiveness, is the SDS1000X-E better than the Rigol DS1054Z?

[tautech]

Default key should be used to set the scope to a well known "default" state.  At boot time, scope should keep the settings it had before shutdown, like Keysight scopes.  If you want to save specific settings, you should be able to store/retrieve settings.

Agreed.
In the screenshot above I had changed the timebase, vertical positioning and the input attenuation to 10:1 from factory defaults, that's all.

It would be wise to set to Factory defaults first then tweak the scope to your own favourite settings which is the road I took.

There is the full list of Default settings in the manual to refer to should a user stuff something up but with little trouble you can reset to Factory to recover a mistake.
Sure it's not a killer feature but handy as hell for a scope that I'd own. Others might not be bothered with it.

In terms of UI responsiveness, is the SDS1000X-E better than the Rigol DS1054Z?

I've not seen any command latency, overall slowness or freezes.
Want it to do something, it doesn't have to think about it,it just does it, no fuss or bother.

Can anyone verify if it has the same bright right edge of the LCD screen?

Model ?
Not in 2 X-E units I've just checked.

[tautech]

Can anyone verify if it has the same bright right edge of the LCD screen?

Having another look at your pic I can see a reflection from part of the display onto the LCD frame.
When I checked 2 units just now with a magnifying headset at some angles I saw a reflection.
At first I thought it looked the same as yours but less but in close and magnified it is only reflection from the glossy frame around the LCD and not seen at normal viewing angles.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

In terms of UI responsiveness, is the SDS1000X-E better than the Rigol DS1054Z?

Yes, like day and night.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Can anyone verify if it has the same bright right edge of the LCD screen?

I didn't notice that in the 1102x I had.

[ELKING]

This light side edge on right is visible under normal angle and it is disturbing if you have good eyesight
I have other oscilloscopes for example. Rigol and LCD backlight is ok.

When the boot is also visible to the left but later is not as distracting as on the right side of course, if you run a test pattern for testing LCD (blue, red an green color is not visible)

so that the LCD matrix is ok  problem is the backlight in my case

I have no luck with Siglent devices in every new device I have some kind of problem  :/

[tautech]

This light side edge on right is visible under normal angle and it is disturbing if you have good eyesight
I have other oscilloscopes for example. Rigol and LCD backlight is ok.

When the boot is also visible to the left but later is not as distracting as on the right side of course, if you run a test pattern for testing LCD (blue, red an green color is not visible)

so that the LCD matrix is ok  problem is the backlight in my case

I have no luck with Siglent devices in every new device I have some kind of problem  :/

I've been handling Siglent's for a few years now and been here for nearly as long and yours is the FIRST mention of this type of problem that I remember.
I have a # of units of several models on hand and I WILL take some time to look into this.
The X-E units I looked at had reflections only from the LCD frame but that is not to say your unit might have some problem. I do not know.
Did you buy it from a local agent ? Can you ask them to check it and report to Siglent ?

[ELKING]

This scope I buy in siglent.eu  from Netherlands not from the local retailer.

[tautech]

This scope I buy in siglent.eu  from Netherlands not from the local retailer.

You can see Siglent America is watching this too so we together will look deeper into this for you.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

[KingDD83]

I just pulled mine out of the box and made special note to look for the bright edge.

I could kinda see it.  I don't think it was quite as bad as elking's. 
I doubt I would've gave it a second thought if elking wouldn't have posted about it.

[tautech]

I just pulled mine out of the box and made special note to look for the bright edge.

I could kinda see it.  I don't think it was quite as bad as elking's. 
I doubt I would've gave it a second thought if elking wouldn't have posted about it.

That was pretty quick service from Saelig. 

Wonder if this bright edge is visible on the unit Dave has ? 

[rf-loop]

Here

This is The Oscilloscope, not tool or display for image editing.
I have used it some amount now two days and looked Signal. After I read this comment here about display it was first time when I note this "feature". If no one have noted this perhaps I have never find it or think it. Just totally negligible. Perhaps signal is more important than some minimal cosmetics. Also when I go to look my faces with mirror, more I look more I find that cosmetics have many "errors".

(Image quality is really bad due to room light and long exposure time, but left and right side have this nonsense feature.)

[ELKING]

Rf-loop

your picture clearly shows the bright right edge on LCD maybe a little less but see it 

I agree with you that it is important to observe the signal on the screen     cosmetic things are not important
but every time I look at the screen I see that bright edge

  Yeah, maybe I'm really the only one who has noticed this

[boggis the cat]

Is it a reflection from the bezel surrounding the display, or internal reflection within the plastic (presumably, but they could use glass) covering the display?

If it is due to a reflective bezel then an easy fix would be to cover the edges with mat tape.  Or if you're keen, disassemble the unit and paint the surfaces.

[KingDD83]

To me, it definitely looks like backlight bleeding, not a reflection.  But it's a non-issue for me.

[TK]

Is it a reflection from the bezel surrounding the display, or internal reflection within the plastic (presumably, but they could use glass) covering the display?

If it is due to a reflective bezel then an easy fix would be to cover the edges with mat tape.  Or if you're keen, disassemble the unit and paint the surfaces.

It is clearly a defect and not a feature.  Why not better ask siglent to recall and fix the scopes?

[ELKING]

I check again Dave video  SDS1kX-E and others video of SDS1kX  on youtube which has different 8" LCD  and does not light the edges.
Yeah, this is definitely a problem with the backlight with reflections in the edges in this 7" LCD.

I got packed  oscilloscope without protective film on lcd and you guys with a protective film or without?

I sent the email to Siglent.eu and I will see what will be the answer. 

[rf-loop]

I check again Dave video  SDS1kX-E and others video of SDS1kX  on youtube which has different 8" LCD  and does not light the edges.
Yeah, this is definitely a problem with the backlight with reflections in the edges in this 7" LCD.

I got packed  oscilloscope without protective film on lcd and you guys with a protective film or without?

I sent the email to Siglent.eu and I will see what will be the answer. 

No protective film here. Btw, what it can protect... finger print on the glass? Glass surface do not need protective film in such a context.

[KingDD83]

There was no protective shipping film on mine.

[tautech]

There was no protective shipping film on mine.

Nearly all of the units I have ordered in the last few months came without a film on the LCD.
It is NOT some cheap plastic/acrylic screen that must be carefully protected, it is quality nonreflective glass.

I have never noticed any backlight bleed before ELKING mentioned it and only now after looking carefully like KingDD83 can I see it. Even then I did not notice it at first as the LCD frame reflection is what was seen first and only at wide angles when the display was difficult to interpret, so IMO the reflection is a non-issue.

For the backlight bleed it is more noticeable (if it is there and can be seen) at LOW light conditions when it would not advisable to use equipment for fear of making errors in connection....who would use a DSO like that anyway ? 

IMO in normal light (medium not bright) and use conditions it can not easily be seen, yes if you really look for it. 
I have checked 2 units only and as I dispatch every unit after some checks first we will watch for bad examples and hold them from dispatch if any are found.

Let's hope Dave still has a X-E production unit and can examine his to clear this up.
EDIT. Asked Dave to have a look at his unit.

[xrunner]

I have a Rigol DS1054Z and if I go to a menu where there is only one soft menu shown and the rest of the right side blank I can see the same sort of dim light. While it's very difficult to see exactly what you are seeing I haven't ever noticed it because the right side is usually full of bright menu choices

Don't worry about it. 

[krasimir.k]

Can somebody to measure the waveform capture rate?
Thanks in advance!

[rf-loop]

Can somebody to measure waveform capture rate?
Thanks in advance!

Later I will make whole table (as also previously made for SDS1000X(X+)

Only what I can now tell that it looks like average speed max is ~96kwfm/s (not peak speed but over 1s average)
Peak is perhaps bit more.  (note that at this time there is early generation FW: 5.1.3.8  )

Segmented memory speed is bit more complex to measure if we talk guaranteed max speed what means that with this speed it do not loose any trig event. But it is very clear maximum this kind of speed is least over 400kwfm/s. (> 400 ksegment/s)

These tables for 1000X/X+  can find here (page bottom)
Later coming same for X-E.

[TheDefpom]

I just added my initial review video for the SDS 1202X-E on my YT channel, this is part 1, another more detailed video (or 2) will follow.

https://youtu.be/64kxGDOg7es

A big thanks goes to Rob (TauTech) for lending me a unit to review, it is great being one of the first people to get my hands on one of these things!

[TK]

There was no protective shipping film on mine.

Nearly all of the units I have ordered in the last few months came without a film on the LCD.
It is NOT some cheap plastic/acrylic screen that must be carefully protected, it is quality nonreflective glass.

I have never noticed any backlight bleed before ELKING mentioned it and only now after looking carefully like KingDD83 can I see it. Even then I did not notice it at first as the LCD frame reflection is what was seen first and only at wide angles when the display was difficult to interpret, so IMO the reflection is a non-issue.

For the backlight bleed it is more noticeable (if it is there and can be seen) at LOW light conditions when it would not advisable to use equipment for fear of making errors in connection....who would use a DSO like that anyway ? 

IMO in normal light (medium not bright) and use conditions it can not easily be seen, yes if you really look for it. 
I have checked 2 units only and as I dispatch every unit after some checks first we will watch for bad examples and hold them from dispatch if any are found.

Let's hope Dave still has a X-E production unit and can examine his to clear this up.
EDIT. Asked Dave to have a look at his unit.

I have my scope on a shelf over the bench and use a desktop lamp to light only the PCB or DUT I am working on.  I think a lot of people use the scope in this same low light environment.

[boggis the cat]

It is clearly a defect and not a feature.

Nobody claimed it was a "feature".

Why not better ask siglent to recall and fix the scopes?

Because it may not be a big issue.  I wouldn't expect a cheap instrument to be built to the highest quality levels -- there is a trade-off required if you can't (or won't) pay the premium for high end products.

I would be more concerned about the controls than imperfect lighting at the screen edges.  That seems to be an area where some brands do a better job and the cheaper equipment tends to cut corners, and most people are going to be twiddling the knobs and pushing buttons a lot.

Have you ever seen the displays that Tektronix put on their expensive 'scopes?  I was working on a DPO on Friday, and wondering where they source them.  Some giant warehouse full of new old stock 1990s PDA displays?   

[TK]

It is clearly a defect and not a feature.

Nobody claimed it was a "feature".

Why not better ask siglent to recall and fix the scopes?

Because it may not be a big issue.  I wouldn't expect a cheap instrument to be built to the highest quality levels -- there is a trade-off required if you can't (or won't) pay the premium for high end products.

I would be more concerned about the controls than imperfect lighting at the screen edges.  That seems to be an area where some brands do a better job and the cheaper equipment tends to cut corners, and most people are going to be twiddling the knobs and pushing buttons a lot.

Have you ever seen the displays that Tektronix put on their expensive 'scopes?  I was working on a DPO on Friday, and wondering where they source them.  Some giant warehouse full of new old stock 1990s PDA displays?   

Let's see... if Siglent fixes it, it was a defect.  If they don't, then it is a feature (a distinctive attribute or aspect of something)

[tautech]

There was no protective shipping film on mine.

Nearly all of the units I have ordered in the last few months came without a film on the LCD.
It is NOT some cheap plastic/acrylic screen that must be carefully protected, it is quality nonreflective glass.

I have never noticed any backlight bleed before ELKING mentioned it and only now after looking carefully like KingDD83 can I see it. Even then I did not notice it at first as the LCD frame reflection is what was seen first and only at wide angles when the display was difficult to interpret, so IMO the reflection is a non-issue.

For the backlight bleed it is more noticeable (if it is there and can be seen) at LOW light conditions when it would not advisable to use equipment for fear of making errors in connection....who would use a DSO like that anyway ? 

IMO in normal light (medium not bright) and use conditions it can not easily be seen, yes if you really look for it. 
I have checked 2 units only and as I dispatch every unit after some checks first we will watch for bad examples and hold them from dispatch if any are found.

Let's hope Dave still has a X-E production unit and can examine his to clear this up.
EDIT. Asked Dave to have a look at his unit.

I have my scope on a shelf over the bench and use a desktop lamp to light only the PCB or DUT I am working on.  I think a lot of people use the scope in this same low light environment.

Sure but I bet quids you can't I'll eat my hat if you can see it in the Defpom's vid above. 

[ELKING]

Also, it has a bright edge but is less visible because the video is being recorded at an angle.

[stj]

i like the colour temperature thing, be good to see that added to the rigol.

infact a side-by-side comparison would be good.
similar price,
2 inputs vs 4, but twice the Mhz.

and just as i was looking to get a cheap DSO!

[TheDefpom]

The next video (which I already have done footage done for) will have a nice close up view of the unit, it fills the screen, so you will be able to see all the detail etc.

As far as a bright edge goes, I honestly didn't notice anything whilst using the unit, I'm not sure if it's really an issue, I will pay a bit closure attention and look for it when I next power it up to see if I notice it when looking for it.

[tautech]

The next video (which I already have done footage done for) will have a nice close up view of the unit, it fills the screen, so you will be able to see all the detail etc.

Thanks Scott, I think that's just what many want to see along with any possible UI lag of which there isn't, is there ? 

As far as a bright edge goes, I honestly didn't notice anything whilst using the unit, I'm not sure if it's really an issue, I will pay a bit closer attention and look for it when I next power it up to see if I notice it when looking for it.

If you can possibly add a link in your vid back to some preceding post in this thread where this is the first it's been discussed AFAIK. Then a viewer can read the discussion here and decide for themselves if it's an issue or not.

Looking forward to more details in the next one.

[boggis the cat]

Let's see... if Siglent fixes it, it was a defect.  If they don't, then it is a feature (a distinctive attribute or aspect of something)

According to whom?  That's a pretty weak straw man.

Do you expect the low end instruments to be exactly equivalent to the high end?  The poorest performing 'scopes I have come across lately were a Rigol (cheap, so I guess that's a trade off) and a Tektronix (very expensive, so very poor for the high cost).  Maybe the Tektronix has useful features that I don't delve into during calibration, or perhaps their after-sales support is far better, so they're still able to sell to commercial buyers.

Typically, in the past, expensive equipment from the big name brands had better documentation and support.  Support seems to be eroding over time, however, and you often can't even get calibration information for newer instruments easily.  The problem for the big brands in my view is that the cheap brands are starting to eat into the commercial market as they improve their service and support, while the big brands are getting pulled down by corporate mergers and restructures.

[TK]

Let's see... if Siglent fixes it, it was a defect.  If they don't, then it is a feature (a distinctive attribute or aspect of something)

According to whom?  That's a pretty weak straw man.

Do you expect the low end instruments to be exactly equivalent to the high end?  The poorest performing 'scopes I have come across lately were a Rigol (cheap, so I guess that's a trade off) and a Tektronix (very expensive, so very poor for the high cost).  Maybe the Tektronix has useful features that I don't delve into during calibration, or perhaps their after-sales support is far better, so they're still able to sell to commercial buyers.

Typically, in the past, expensive equipment from the big name brands had better documentation and support.  Support seems to be eroding over time, however, and you often can't even get calibration information for newer instruments easily.  The problem for the big brands in my view is that the cheap brands are starting to eat into the commercial market as they improve their service and support, while the big brands are getting pulled down by corporate mergers and restructures.

According to a potential customer that had the scope on the shopping cart but switched to a different brand.

[TheDefpom]

I have this unit powered up, and yes the right hand edge does have a very slight light increase, but it is barely noticeable , I have certainly seen much worse!

[boggis the cat]

According to a potential customer that had the scope on the shopping cart but switched to a different brand.

Is this yourself, or another member of 'The League of Unusually Discriminating Oscilloscope Display Connoisseurs"? 

 

Why is this "potential customer" being coy about the "different brand"?  And model.  If it were I making a mountain out of this then I'd state what I decided to buy instead.  (Presumably something with a better display.)

If the "different brand" is GW Instek, then I'd say that is a good alternative (although significantly costlier).  If the brand is Rigol, then I hope the "potential customer" is very patient, or doesn't need to change settings much. 

If what appears to be fairly normal minor issues with a display puts you off buying a 'scope, then you have unusual priorities.  If this was some type of media consumption device, then the display is much more important -- but would a minor display issue be a deal-breaker for most people? 

[stj]

a VGA/DVI port on the back would have been nice!
and not just on this scope, but all DSO's

plugging in a 17" monitor would mean not having to be so close to the scope to see small detail.

[TK]

a VGA/DVI port on the back would have been nice!
and not just on this scope, but all DSO's

plugging in a 17" monitor would mean not having to be so close to the scope to see small detail.

You can add VGA to Keysight scopes and most OWON DSOs had bundled VGA output for many years

[TK]

According to a potential customer that had the scope on the shopping cart but switched to a different brand.

Is this yourself, or another member of 'The League of Unusually Discriminating Oscilloscope Display Connoisseurs"? 

 

Why is this "potential customer" being coy about the "different brand"?  And model.  If it were I making a mountain out of this then I'd state what I decided to buy instead.  (Presumably something with a better display.)

If the "different brand" is GW Instek, then I'd say that is a good alternative (although significantly costlier).  If the brand is Rigol, then I hope the "potential customer" is very patient, or doesn't need to change settings much. 

If what appears to be fairly normal minor issues with a display puts you off buying a 'scope, then you have unusual priorities.  If this was some type of media consumption device, then the display is much more important -- but would a minor display issue be a deal-breaker for most people? 

Do you own this scope?

[hgjdwx]

micsig TO1000 have HDMI output

[zike]

Happy to see the more substantive evaluations/reviews over the weekend. My lab unit is just in from Saelig. First impressions:

Screen looks very good, certainly comparable contrast, sharpness & brightness to Keysights and Teks we have around here
(can't list all the models but some fairly recent).

Pulse rise time w/ sinc interpolation checks out at 1.62 ns with a tunnel diode pulser (< 100ps intrinsic).

It seems to bog down a little  (slight jerkiness in updates) when asking for onscreen measurements on 2 channels at timebases longer than 200 us/div (reporting more than 3.5 million points). I'm using a pseudorandom pulse generator as a test source, about 2kpps average.

Input menu offers channel input impedance of 50  . This is obviously a bug, selecting it does nothing. Menu must have been copied from another instrument.

Aside from this, having a hard time finding appreciable fault; looks like a solid scope with a pretty good user interface so far. I'll keep playing.

Cheers,

Mike

[nctnico]

Aside from this, having a hard time finding appreciable fault; looks like a solid scope with a pretty good user interface so far. I'll keep playing.

It takes far more rigorous and methodical testing than twiddling a few knobs to find the problems. Taking a scope through all it's functions and testing their limits takes a few days at least if you are setup for this kind of testing. You can't even capture that into a video. It would be several hours long!
If you look at messages from people who discover a bug the story usually goes as follows: I have this piece of equipment for a while already but now I want to use feature XYZ and it doesn't work as expected. Help!

[zike]

Aside from this, having a hard time finding appreciable fault; looks like a solid scope with a pretty good user interface so far. I'll keep playing.

It takes far more rigorous and methodical testing than twiddling a few knobs to find the problems. Taking a scope through all it's functions and testing their limits takes a few days at least if you are setup for this kind of testing. You can't even capture that into a video. It would be several hours long!
If you look at messages from people who discover a bug the story usually goes as follows: I have this piece of equipment for a while already but now I want to use feature XYZ and it doesn't work as expected. Help!

Wow, you're making me feel pretty special. I found one in the first 5 minutes! And it's only 11 pages into this thread!

[TheDefpom]

My more detailed Part 2 full review is now up on YT as well, check it out below:

https://youtu.be/laK1v2Zas4o

[Fungus]

It takes far more rigorous and methodical testing than twiddling a few knobs to find the problems. Taking a scope through all it's functions and testing their limits takes a few days at least if you are setup for this kind of testing. You can't even capture that into a video. It would be several hours long!

Wow, you're making me feel pretty special. I found one in the first 5 minutes! And it's only 11 pages into this thread!

Nah, that just means you found one of the easy ones. There will be several that take months to find.

[zike]

[/quote]
Nah, that just means you found one of the easy ones. There will be several that take months to find.
[/quote]

Sorry, new to this forum; do we explain jokes?

Here's another fun one: "set trigger at 50%" (push trigger level knob) doesn't work correctly if trigger input coupling is set to AC or LF Reject (just puts trigger at 0.00V, irrespective of input). Kinda useless.

I'll save the next one a couple weeks so it looks like I worked for it.

BTW I found a wiring error in my Tek 545B, should I post it?

[ebastler]

Here's another fun one: "set trigger at 50%" (push trigger level knob) doesn't work correctly if trigger input coupling is set to AC or LF Reject (just puts trigger at 0.00V, irrespective of input). Kinda useless.

Could you explain that joke please? I don't get it... 


Seriously -- where else would you set a default trigger threshold in AC coupling mode?

[zike]

Could you explain that joke please? I don't get it... 
Seriously -- where else would you set a default trigger threshold in AC coupling mode?

About halfway between signal maximum and signal minimum. Same as for DC coupling. Just think of a low duty-cycle pulse train.

[tautech]

Any bugs found need be well described and with screenshots for us to pass onto the engineers.
They need to be able to replicate a bug so the more info the better.
Firmware version need be stated too please.

Post them here and/or in this thread for them to be passed on:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/

[nctnico]

Here's another fun one: "set trigger at 50%" (push trigger level knob) doesn't work correctly if trigger input coupling is set to AC or LF Reject (just puts trigger at 0.00V, irrespective of input). Kinda useless.

Could you explain that joke please? I don't get it... 

Seriously -- where else would you set a default trigger threshold in AC coupling mode?

Well it would fail on a very asymetric pulse so yes, it is a bug! Needless to say I just tried it on both my MicSig and GW Instek scopes with a 1Vpp 0.1% duty cycle square wave. Both set the trigger point to 0.5V with trigger and channel set to AC.

@Tautech: maybe start a seperate bug thread just like we have for the Rigol DS1054Z?

[tautech]

@Tautech: maybe start a seperate bug thread just like we have for the Rigol DS1054Z?

Yep, right away.
Will we need two threads like for the 54Z ? 

[ellrod]

This may be obvious but does rolling, zoom, and history work for dual channels as well as single channels ? I see lots of single channel demos and pictures but very few dual channel examples.

[tautech]

This may be obvious but does rolling, zoom, and history work for dual channels as well as single channels ? I see lots of single channel demos and pictures but very few dual channel examples.

Welcome to the forum.

As there a few of these units out there now maybe a new owner can post a screenshot for you, if they don't I'll put something up but later....lots to do. 

[zike]

Good point, thanks for reminding us.

Software version: 5.1.3.8
FPGA version: 2017-03-21
Hardware version: 00-01
Product type: SDS1202X-E

Really appreciate your interaction here,

Zike

Any bugs found need be well described and with screenshots for us to pass onto the engineers.
They need to be able to replicate a bug so the more info the better.
Firmware version need be stated too please.

Post them here and/or in this thread for them to be passed on:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/

[rf-loop]

This may be obvious but does rolling, zoom, and history work for dual channels as well as single channels ? I see lots of single channel demos and pictures but very few dual channel examples.

Of course all works also with two channels: Waveform history buffer, Segmented memory acquisition, rolling, zoom. Difference is that samplerate is half and memory is half (max 500MSa/s for both channels simultaneously and max 7M for both channels simultaneously.)
FFT it can run only for one channel but of course also then two channels can be in use but user select  Ch1 or  Ch2 for FFT. If use "Split Screen" or "Full Screen" mode then both channels in time basis can see together with selected channel FFT (also if two channels is in use FFT max length is 10M sample.) If use "Exclusive" mode then full height FFT alone is displayed.

Then about this channels input impedance selection. Scope do not have internal 50 ohm but it have 50ohm/1M selection in menu.   This selection must NOT remove. This selection is needed or can use example  for FFT  so that user can use external 50ohm and this need also tell to scope system that user is using 50 ohm termination. So that measurement can do also for power units (dBm @ 50ohm)

I Hope they repair 50 ohm setting in menu system so that if user use external 50 ohm termination it also can use levels as dBm what is common and mandatory in every single spectrum analyzer.

[Glowtape]

So I got one of these things to debug my RC stuff and all. First thing I noticed is that the voltage level differential in the cursors doesn't scale with probe attenuation. I have them set to 10X and what measures otherwise like 3.8V over here shows as delta-Y of 380mV. Nice one.

[zike]

Re: phony 50 input select yes, it would be wonderful if the thing could stand for a spectrum analyzer, but that would take a lot more than convenient display units. The FFT mode correctly offers dBVrms units. If you know that you have installed an external terminator (and why), you should also be able to add 13. In the meantime, channel input "Impedance" select is clearly indicating real physical input impedance, and is simply wrong.

Couple more strange behaviors other owners may wish to confirm:

- In "math" you can select channels 1 and 2 as operands ("Source") A and B. But if you scroll to select operations it *sometimes* spontaneously changes both operands to channel 2.  When it does this, the soft keys at screen bottom still display the channel assignments originally selected, but the on-screen "MATH" text shows the erroneous operation. Based on signals I fed in,  that indeed appears to be what it's displaying. Manually re-selecting the channel for one of the Sources appears to resolve it for the moment; but if you then change the math operator again, it's a crapshoot.

- The manual (page 133) indicates one can do math against internally saved Reference waveforms. But only channel 1 and channel 2 are offered as operands, even if Ref A and Ref B have been saved with valid waveforms.   

- Under "acquire" menu page 2/2 there is a softbutton "Acq Mode" appearing next to the "Interpolation" select. This gives two options, "Slow" and "Fast". "Slow" appears to make the screen update jerky.   Nothing shown in the manual (although mystery button does appear in Figures 12 and 13).  Onscreen help says:  "Fast: Enable hardware accelerated view. Slow: Disable hardware accelerated view."  Any clues why this option is offered, or how it might be useful?

Once again:
Software version: 5.1.3.8
FPGA version: 2017-03-21
Hardware version: 00-01
Product type: SDS1202X-E

[boggis the cat]

Do you own this scope?

Not yet.  What 'scope did your "potential customer" choose?

[rf-loop]

Re: phony 50 input select yes, it would be wonderful if the thing could stand for a spectrum analyzer, but that would take a lot more than convenient display units. The FFT mode correctly offers dBVrms units. If you know that you have installed an external terminator (and why), you should also be able to add 13. In the meantime, channel input "Impedance" select is clearly indicating real physical input impedance, and is simply wrong.

Yes, how it is now is of course wrong. Who have told it is not wrong. No one.
I hope they add user selectable 50ohm setting for display dBm @ 50ohm with FFT.  Of course all educated and experienced users know why.  Do you think it is wrong when SDG can set for Hi-Z or user selectable load impedance. Not more complex to use 50 ohm / 1M selection than set probe multiplier.  Butr this need name and/or other way arrange so that user clearly understand there is not internal 50 ohm. (if these kind of  equipments settings need be monkey protected, how hell they can set probe multiplier....if not this)

What is real pity is that this model do not have 50 ohm internal circuits as example "big brother" 1000X have and it have dBm, Vrms and dBVrms selections (depending input selection) But big brother also do not have  frequency scale bug as X-E now have. Let's hope this scale error in X-E is repaired asap. Edit (  ) : This need more investigation = perhaps my fault or it happen only in some very special situations .

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Ufffff, is the X-E another case of a not fully cooked yet firmware?

[zike]

Ufffff, is the X-E another case of a not fully cooked yet firmware?

I'm an old fart, so I don't know customs nowadays; the process is now very public, and "the sky is falling" seems to be a way to get attention. Certainly it's no novelty that marketing ships a product before engineering has quite had time to get the bugs out. 'Twas ever thus;  I've restored plenty of classic HP and Tek gear where the "change & revision notices" section is thicker than the original service manual.

So far I'm impressed with the update speed, user interface (well, except buggy FFT/math...) and price:performance ratio. Some solid and innovative engineering in there, for sure. The manual isn't even that bad, a few errors and lots of translation artifacts but mostly clear and to the point.

Whether the growing bug list is truly "excessive" for so new a product is not so clear.  The answer is in how Siglent responds. Have they been notably unresponsive in earlier product rollouts? Again, I'm new to this ecosystem...

Zike

[nctnico]

Whether the growing bug list is truly "excessive" for so new a product is not so clear.  The answer is in how Siglent responds. Have they been notably unresponsive in earlier product rollouts? Again, I'm new to this ecosystem...

Siglent is notorious for releasing products with incomplete firmware and then taking years to fix the problems. Chances are not all problems get fixed. If there are problems in your scope you can't live with then return it and don't get fooled into waiting until Siglent comes up with a fix. There is a reason Siglent is so cheap...

[tautech]

Ufffff, is the X-E another case of a not fully cooked yet firmware?

I'm an old fart, so I don't know customs nowadays; the process is now very public, and "the sky is falling" seems to be a way to get attention. Certainly it's no novelty that marketing ships a product before engineering has quite had time to get the bugs out. 'Twas ever thus;  I've restored plenty of classic HP and Tek gear where the "change & revision notices" section is thicker than the original service manual.

So far I'm impressed with the update speed, user interface (well, except buggy FFT/math...) and price:performance ratio. Some solid and innovative engineering in there, for sure. The manual isn't even that bad, a few errors and lots of translation artifacts but mostly clear and to the point.

Whether the growing bug list is truly "excessive" for so new a product is not so clear.  The answer is in how Siglent responds. Have they been notably unresponsive in earlier product rollouts? Again, I'm new to this ecosystem...

Zike

Thanks Zike for your report and words of support for the X-E.
Some minor shortcomings are not unexpected in a new product these days and IMO despite all the hype and speculation this model has built for some months (first seen at Hamburg show last year) most operations seem very functional. Indications that there's been a few FW revisions before release are in the FW #: 5.1.3.8.
All the brands these days seem to offer new products to the marketplace with something overlooked, yes all brands.

We'll link the engineers to your findings for them to resolve the issues and if you find anything else please offer it here or in the Siglent support thread.

In reply to your responsiveness question, the fastest bug remedy I've seen was one reported by a member here, I sent it to the factory same day and in 2 weeks it was fixed in the next FW release.

[ebastler]

In reply to your responsiveness question, the fastest bug remedy I've seen was one reported by a member here, I sent it to the factory same day and in 2 weeks it was fixed in the next FW release.

That qualifies as a partial answer, with an ever-so-subtle bit of spin put on it.
What was the slowest response you have seen?

[tautech]

In reply to your responsiveness question, the fastest bug remedy I've seen was one reported by a member here, I sent it to the factory same day and in 2 weeks it was fixed in the next FW release.

That qualifies as a partial answer, with an ever-so-subtle bit of spin put on it.
What was the slowest response you have seen?

I try to follow up with the factory on all bug reports but life sometimes gets in the way and I overlook some until I am reminded about them. When this happens I send another request with the date that I sent the first and this normally gains results. With popular products it does normally take very long.
Some indication can be seen in the frequency of new FW releases on the Siglent FW webpage.
http://siglentamerica.com/gjjrj.aspx?id=15&page=2

[nctnico]

In reply to your responsiveness question, the fastest bug remedy I've seen was one reported by a member here, I sent it to the factory same day and in 2 weeks it was fixed in the next FW release.

That qualifies as a partial answer, with an ever-so-subtle bit of spin put on it.
What was the slowest response you have seen?

Make that a lot of spin! IIRC that was about a spectrum analyser. I think the slowest response must be the Siglent SDS2000 which was released at the end of 2013 and still has issues in the current firmware according to this posting: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000-new-v2-firmware/msg1077062/#msg1077062. That adds up to over 3.5 years.

[TheDefpom]

Interesting that you quoted a bug I found... the post was about them fixing the counter display!

As I hadn't had the scope that long at the time, and I had only reported the bug about a few months or so earlier they actually fixed it pretty quickly !

The counter was a lot further out than that, and don't forget firmware cannot correct for a slight internal oscillator variance.

[zike]

Me again. OK this one's crossed the line.

Setup to look at a functioning I2C link (arduino-LCD display). Assigned data and clock to ch.1 and 2,  linked to trigger, requested format ASCII,  hit "list" to show decode; table is drawn but shows alert symbol top left and  "No data" . OK so I set something up wrong...

but  scope is now unresponsive! 

No soft or hard buttons affect operation, just triggers repeatedly on my serial test line (or auto triggers if I unplug probes).

Power button doesn't even work; had to unplug from mains to reboot.

Took a video documenting ineffective key presses etc.,  but it's unclear how to share. Here's a screen still, in any case.

EDIT: Haven't managed to replicate problem in the last 20 minutes.

[tautech]

Me again. OK this one's crossed the line.

Setup to look at a functioning I2C link (arduino-LCD display). Assigned data and clock to ch.1 and 2,  linked to trigger, requested format ASCII,  hit "list" to show decode; table is drawn but shows alert symbol top left and  "No data" . OK so I set something up wrong...

but  scope is now unresponsive! 

No soft or hard buttons affect operation, just triggers repeatedly on my serial test line (or auto triggers if I unplug probes).

Power button doesn't even work; had to unplug from mains to reboot.

Took a video documenting ineffective key presses etc.,  but it's unclear how to share. Here's a screen still, in any case.

EDIT: Haven't managed to replicate problem in the last 20 minutes.

You can paste the link in a post or send it to me via PM, either way the factory will get to see it when they start work in ~90 minutes.

Interesting, never had a freeze, anybody else ?

[zike]

@tautech pm sent

[tautech]

@tautech pm sent

Excellent.
Not so much a freeze as totally unresponsive to buttons, right ? Yet scope was still operating and refreshing the display. Hmmm
Un plug and repower fixed it right and no other incidences of it again ?

Forwarded to factory.

[zike]

@tautech Another freeze, this time while scrolling stored i2c stream in "stop" mode.  Check pm for vid.

Alas, time to reckon up; visiting Oz for work next couple weeks so no more opportunity for testing. I've played with the unit a total of about 3.5 hours since opening the box, and discovered ~ 5 fairly obvious bugs, one quite serious (total lockup, 2 occasions; that is, 4-5 times per 8-hour day on average). Let's work out the probability these flaws could be missed if the product had actually been tested.

RMA requested from Saelig.

Love the forum, will surely be back (on a different topic!) Til then,

Zike

[TK]

Do you own this scope?

Not yet.  What 'scope did your "potential customer" choose?

The micsig mini tablet scope with 4 channels

[tautech]

@tautech Another freeze, this time while scrolling stored i2c stream in "stop" mode.  Check pm for vid.

Alas, time to reckon up; visiting Oz for work next couple weeks so no more opportunity for testing. I've played with the unit a total of about 3.5 hours since opening the box, and discovered ~ 5 fairly obvious bugs, one quite serious (total lockup, 2 occasions; that is, 4-5 times per 8-hour day on average). Let's work out the probability these flaws could be missed if the product had actually been tested.

RMA requested from Saelig.

Love the forum, will surely be back (on a different topic!) Til then,

Zike

Thanks Zike for your feedback and videos, much appreciated.
As I mentioned previously I've not seen a lockup or freeze after a couple of hours of various types of usage.
Yours have both been while decoding and the second vid has some more clues as to why I think and the factory might be able to duplicate it.
I'm sorry you think you need to return it without waiting to see what improvements will be made with a firmware release.
Have a good trip to OZ, catchya soon. 

[kcbrown]

Thanks Zike for your feedback and videos, much appreciated.
As I mentioned previously I've not seen a lockup or freeze after a couple of hours of various types of usage.
Yours have both been while decoding and the second vid has some more clues as to why I think and the factory might be able to duplicate it.

Could you attempt to reproduce it using the info available in the vids?  If you try and can't reproduce it, then his unit may have a hardware flaw.  It would be useful to know if the issue really is firmware.

I'm sorry you think you need to return it without waiting to see what improvements will be made with a firmware release.
Have a good trip to OZ, catchya soon. 

Unfortunately, RMAs are a limited time option (most places give you 30 days at most, some only 15).  If he's heading out of country, then timing probably prevents him from keeping it.

[tautech]

Thanks Zike for your feedback and videos, much appreciated.
As I mentioned previously I've not seen a lockup or freeze after a couple of hours of various types of usage.
Yours have both been while decoding and the second vid has some more clues as to why I think and the factory might be able to duplicate it.

Could you attempt to reproduce it using the info available in the vids?  If you try and can't reproduce it, then his unit may have a hardware flaw.  It would be useful to know if the issue really is firmware.

I could but I'd rather pass it straight to the engineers whom are paid to sort problems out. If I get time, maybe.

Unfortunately, RMAs are a limited time option (most places give you 30 days at most, some only 15).  If he's heading out of country, then timing probably prevents him from keeping it.

Which only presumes one has no faith in Siglent implementing a fix. 
Again I thank Zike for his feedback but I'm disappointed he didn't give them the chance to remedy any problems.
I hope he can find a product that is as well featured for a similar price point that has NO bugs so shortly after release. Everything else newly released mentioned on the forum seems to have problems too.

[kcbrown]

Which only presumes one has no faith in Siglent implementing a fix. 

Not really.  Siglent implementing a firmware fix in a reasonable amount of time is the only situation where it makes sense for him to keep it.  But there's no way for him to know ahead of time if that will happen.  It presumes that, firstly, the issue is a firmware issue in the first place and, secondly, that it is easily reproducible and, thirdly, that Siglent maintains its current pace of firmware releases (that last seems most likely, so I only mention it for completeness' sake).

If he keeps it and it turns out to be a hardware problem, then he'll end up having to send it in for warranty repair, which means he'll be without his scope for however long it takes for the repair center to fix the issue -- and that presumes they don't simply end up sending it back to him unmodified as a result of not being able to reproduce the issue themselves.

If he RMAs it now and it turns out to be a firmware issue, he can acquire a new one once the issue is resolved.  If it turns out to be unreproducible (thus suggesting that it's a hardware issue), then he can acquire a new one once that determination has been made, knowing that his previous unit was faulty at the hardware level.

And finally, by RMAing the unit now, he can watch to see how Siglent handles things, to get a better feel for whether or not he can confidently reacquire one later, knowing that the manufacturer will stand behind it.


So the situation is what makes his decision the most logical one, even if one gives full benefit of the doubt to Siglent.  Put another way, it's something that would be sensible to do even if it were a Keysight unit.

Again I thank Zike for his feedback but I'm disappointed he didn't give them the chance to remedy any problems.

I suspect he would have if he weren't heading out of country (only he can answer that one, however). 

I hope he can find a product that is as well featured for a similar price point that has NO bugs so shortly after release. Everything else newly released mentioned on the forum seems to have problems too.

No doubt.  Even the new R&S scope, which commands a much higher price, seems to have issues.   It'll be very interesting indeed to see how the respective manufacturers handle this.

[tautech]

Linking this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds-1202x-e-review-on-youtube/

[Fungus]

I hope he can find a product that is as well featured for a similar price point that has NO bugs so shortly after release. Everything else newly released mentioned on the forum seems to have problems too.

No doubt.  Even the new R&S scope, which commands a much higher price, seems to have issues.   It'll be very interesting indeed to see how the respective manufacturers handle this.

From what I've seen so far: I actually think the Rigol DS1054Z had less issues on launch. So much for big brand names.

[boggis the cat]

From what I've seen so far: I actually think the Rigol DS1054Z had less issues on launch. So much for big brand names.

Unfortunately, there is pressure to release products when they are still incomplete.  The drawback of firmware updates is that manufacturers are able push out such products along with a promise to fix the issues.  If the product doesn't sell well, or a show-stopper hardware problem is present, then you may never get a functionally complete device.

This certainly also occurs with digital cameras, and I would guess any products that sell in similar low volumes (compared to mass market consumer products).

I do wonder why no manufacturer has tried an 'open source' type of product.  Sell decent hardware with minimal capabilities, and cut the development cost.  Let end users tinker with it and expand the capability.  Possibly roll some of those features in to new manufacturer releases of the firmware.

[zike]

Idle moment en route, couldn’t help checking in… thanks for everyone’s concern!

I did not mean to suggest what anyone else should do/buy/not buy; nor do I think anyone else actually means to advise me how to invest my time (!?)

Re: cutting losses and returning the unit, imminent travel’s a red herring. Saeilig is a highly reputable firm; they would certainly honor return of a defective product under any reasonable circumstances. (Yes, they covered return shipping.)

We all underestimate the value of our time. For example, I put all of my free time over about 3 days into this subject. That’s about ~0.05% of my probable remaining lifespan.  Unless it’s the very thing that gives you pleasure, set a time limit and stick to it.

I mentioned cultural norms of our epoch. Clearly, manufacturers do now expect customers to beta test their products for free (actually, to pay for the privilege!). Some understandable reasons; products more capable and complex, short product life cycles compress development, low margins. Expectations surely must differ between instruments that cost the annual salary of the end user, and ones that cost a few bags of groceries.

OTOH, think about the moral hazard. Accepting any product unfit for use reinforces corporate disregard for quality; if they can make a profit that way, of course they will. As hinted above, it may not be just firmware that’s neglected. Sure, future buyers may benefit incrementally if we all peck away randomly to debug the product (without benefit of design documentation!), AND if the company eventually responds. But it will never be as good as if the makers actually took pride in their work.

So please, for the _true_ benefit of future generations: if you’re unfortunate enough to buy a shoddy half-baked term project dressed up as a test instrument, send it right back. Doing otherwise reinforces the message that zero quality is a good business plan.

And, as you point out, we're all reaping the reward.

Again I thank Zike for his feedback but I'm disappointed he didn't give them the chance to remedy any problems.
I hope he can find a product that is as well featured for a similar price point that has NO bugs so shortly after release. Everything else newly released mentioned on the forum seems to have problems too.

[nctnico]

So please, for the _true_ benefit of future generations: if you’re unfortunate enough to buy a shoddy half-baked term project dressed up as a test instrument, send it right back. Doing otherwise reinforces the message that zero quality is a good business plan.

So true.  Believing Siglent would fix their firmware within a reasonable timeframe has cost me over 1700 euros a couple of years ago (AND I had to buy a piece of equipment which did work to get the job done so double whammy).

[stj]

[I do wonder why no manufacturer has tried an 'open source' type of product.  Sell decent hardware with minimal capabilities, and cut the development cost.  Let end users tinker with it and expand the capability

some of the chinese mobile fone makers like xiaomi sort of do that.
they sell fones with unlocked bootloader and share the sourcecode and even have a dev forum with links to other peoples custom roms.
i have a xiaomi MI4 and would NEVER swap it for a Samsung / Crapple fone - NEVER!! 

[Loboscope]

I have the new 1202X-E now for a few days on my bench. and at a first try and look it gives a good impression.

It starts fast, in less than 15 seconds and it is really fast and responsive. The grid aera is a bit grater than the grid aera of the Rigol DS1104Z (which I own too) with a 14x8 graticule (1104Z = 12x8).
For me,the UI of the Siglent is easier to use and more clearly arranged. The possibility to choose specific measurements - and to deselect them individually! - is a lot more simple and convenient than at the Rigol. Also the screen is a lot more tidy and less crowded than the Rigol. Not to mention the individual controls for the channels.

BUT: I found another bug or malfunction, at least a feature that is until now implemented in an insufficient way: the xy-mode!
It is incredible slow. I tested it spontaneously with a Lissajous-pattern of two frequencies, 1 KHz and 3 KHz and you will know the resulting pattern which is stable. Now I detuned the frequencies a bit, for example 1 KHz and 3,01 KHz and the pattern will move now. But the update rate of the Siglent is only 2 Hz at maximum. So the Pattern will not move continuously but it will jump any 0,5 sec. And above all the trace is incredible thick an fat. By this, the xy-mode will not be usable for tuning frequencies, it will certainly not be usable at all.
The Rigol does it well and even my very old and ultra-simple GDS-1022 will perform the xy-mode exemplary, even a bit better than the Rigol!!!
So it cannot be a lack of ´engine power´ (the Xilinx should outperform both, the Rigol and certainly the GDS-1022), but it must be a bad implementation in the software  .

Is there any hope that it will be implemented soon in a better way so that the xy-mode will work as it should?

[tautech]

I have the new 1202X-E now for a few days on my bench. and at a first try and look it gives a good impression.

It starts fast, in less than 15 seconds and it is really fast and responsive. The grid aera is a bit grater than the grid aera of the Rigol DS1104Z (which I own too) with a 14x8 graticule (1104Z = 12x8).
For me,the UI of the Siglent is easier to use and more clearly arranged. The possibility to choose specific measurements - and to deselect them individually! - is a lot more simple and convenient than at the Rigol. Also the screen is a lot more tidy and less crowded than the Rigol. Not to mention the individual controls for the channels.

BUT: I found another bug or malfunction, at least a feature that is until now implemented in an insufficient way: the xy-mode!
It is incredible slow. I tested it spontaneously with a Lissajous-pattern of two frequencies, 1 KHz and 3 KHz and you will know the resulting pattern which is stable. Now I detuned the frequencies a bit, for example 1 KHz and 3,01 KHz and the pattern will move now. But the update rate of the Siglent is only 2 Hz at maximum. So the Pattern will not move continuously but it will jump any 0,5 sec. And above all the trace is incredible thick an fat. By this, the xy-mode will not be usable for tuning frequencies, it will certainly not be usable at all.
The Rigol does it well and even my very old and ultra-simple GDS-1022 will perform the xy-mode exemplary, even a bit better than the Rigol!!!
So it cannot be a lack of ´engine power´ (the Xilinx should outperform both, the Rigol and certainly the GDS-1022), but it must be a bad implementation in the software  .

Is there any hope that it will be implemented soon in a better way so that the xy-mode will work as it should?

We can hope it has already been reported, however it will be again. Thanks for your feedback. 

[ebclr]

Be ready, this is only the beginning of you journey to amazing well made Siglent firmware.

You is the usability tester that they didn't employ, and maybe they will do something about when they have some spare time.

[Fungus]

Be ready, this is only the beginning of you journey to amazing well made Siglent firmware.

You is the usability tester that they didn't employ, and maybe they will do something about when they have some spare time.

If this was Rigol the topic would be 100+ pages long by now. 

We can hope it has already been reported, however it will be again. Thanks for your feedback. 

eg. He wouldn't have said that in a Rigol thread. 

[ebclr]

Do you believe that Rigols have 100 times more users?

[Fungus]

Do you believe that Rigols have 100 times more users?

Most of the posts in the Rigol threads are the result of half a dozen haters.

In this thread the exact same people are acting with tolerance and patience because it says "Siglent" on the front. I just wanted to point that out.

[ebastler]

Do you believe that Rigols have 100 times more users?

Actually yes, I would assume that the DS1000Z series easily has 100 times more users than the Siglent SDS1000X-E series. The Rigol has been in the market for a few years and has apparently been selling very successfully, while the Siglent is just out.

Given that, this Siglent thread is actually disproportionately long. That might be due to an ample supply of bugs, or due to big excitement over the new product. 

[nctnico]

Do you believe that Rigols have 100 times more users?

Actually yes, I would assume that the DS1000Z series easily has 100 times more users than the Siglent SDS1000X-E series. The Rigol has been in the market for a few years and has apparently been selling very successfully, while the Siglent is just out.

IMHO the hackability of the DS1054Z has played a large role. Being able to get something for free which otherwise costs $1000 extra was just too much for many to handle.

[rstofer]

Do you believe that Rigols have 100 times more users?

The topic Siglent is brand new, how many copies could there be in the wild?

As to the DS1054Z, I watched the inventory levels at Tequipment and it seemed like they were selling about 1000 per week.  And they are only one supplier and the scope has been out for a couple of years.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there are a hundred thousand DS1054Zs in the wild.  Maybe more...

I also wouldn't be surprised to find that it is the highest selling scope of all time.

The new Siglent is interesting because of the bandwidth and, maybe, better implementations of the UI, decoding and FFT.  We'll see.

[Fungus]

Actually yes, I would assume that the DS1000Z series easily has 100 times more users than the Siglent SDS1000X-E series.

100? More like 10,000x more.

[ebastler]

Actually yes, I would assume that the DS1000Z series easily has 100 times more users than the Siglent SDS1000X-E series.

100? More like 10,000x more.

Maybe. As in "easily 100 times more", right?

[Fungus]

IMHO the hackability of the DS1054Z has played a large role. Being able to get something for free which otherwise costs $1000 extra was just too much for many to handle.

You say that as if they all made a mistake. They didn't. Even with the new Siglent it's still a toss-up over which to get.

What do you go for? More channels or more bandwidth? Dave has already stated he'd go for the Rigol because of the four channels, the Siglent isn't compelling enough to outweigh that advantage (for him).

[Fungus]

Actually yes, I would assume that the DS1000Z series easily has 100 times more users than the Siglent SDS1000X-E series.

100? More like 10,000x more.

Maybe. As in "easily 100 times more", right?

You're right. The two numbers "100" and "10,000" are completely interchangeable. 

(also: Batteriser can last up to 8x longer)

[Electro Fan]

Not sure exactly where this thread is going but I think it's very good for users here and all over for both Siglent and Rigol to do their best to turn out good products at good prices with decent support.  If they both do that and they are successful users benefit from the innovation and competition; and to the extent either or both listen to the feedback here we get some input to their thinking.  It's all good.

[Fungus]

It's all good.

Yep. Competition is good for us. This new Siglent is the first real competition for the Rigol since it was launched a couple of years ago.

[nctnico]

IMHO the hackability of the DS1054Z has played a large role. Being able to get something for free which otherwise costs $1000 extra was just too much for many to handle.

You say that as if they all made a mistake. They didn't. Even with the new Siglent it's still a toss-up over which to get.

What do you go for? More channels or more bandwidth? Dave has already stated he'd go for the Rigol because of the four channels, the Siglent isn't compelling enough to outweigh that advantage (for him).

At least the Rigol 1054Z firmware is in a somewhat reasonable state nowadays where Siglent has just started on the SDS1202E firmware. IMHO both scopes are not good choices for a more demanding user and you don't need to spend a fortune extra to get something which performs better. In general there is a thin line between 'best bang for your buck' and wasting money.

[pascal_sweden]

Facts:
GW-Instek software is made in Taiwan.
Siglent and Rigol software is made in China.

Observations and statements:
Based on observations and statements on this forum, the software from GW-Instek seems very stable, even in new scope releases (e.g. observations and statements from forum user: nctnico).

Questions:
Is there such a big difference in software quality between both nations?
Would there be a big difference in wages between a Taiwanese software engineer and a Chinese software engineer?
If not, how come Chinese scope manufacturers don't work with a Taiwanese software house subsidiary?

[Koen]

Yes, this is totally imputable to both nations of origin. Also, french people have baguettes under the armpit, italians move their hands a lot while talking and romanians are vampires so visit during the day only.

[rf-loop]

Added this very tiny test about automatic mesurements:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/msg1204964/#msg1204964

[MrW0lf]

Added this very tiny test about automatic mesurements:

Shows promise. Clearly not a "screen sampling" scope. Of course would need proper torture testing to find out if it really is using whole buffer, some clever gating or whatnot. But already this shows that you can get stuff done impossible on "screen sampler"... 

[Numbguy]

Added this very tiny test about automatic mesurements:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/msg1204964/#msg1204964

clearly it‘s using the whole buffer.If you'd like to measure desired area,you can use the gate function in the measurement.And you can also set the  source Z1 or Z2 to measure the zoomed area in the measurement .

[MrW0lf]

In one example it has mem depth 14M, 14ms buffer, which means that contains ~123k edges for 9MHz signal:



If it really measures all edges - congrats - pretty hardcore. But often there are some internal optimizations that cleverly analyze only some data. To find out would need specific crafted tests. For 100% repeating signals of course mostly no difference how its done. Overall this is of little concern for end user. Wonder just out of curiosity if it really has so much processing power to honestly measure full 14M buffer in real time.

[karkoon]

I am electronic enthusiast, hobbyist and want to try out a few things. Few years ago I tried Arduino and it was fun. I learned some electronics in my junior college and then left for CS engineering degree. Didn't touch electronics for a while after that. After 12 years out of college I feel like trying things again and here I am. Trying to setup a small hobby lab.

I always wanted to own a multimeter and an oscilloscope. Just felt cool.

I watch many channels on YT which target hobbyist and everyone used to showcase lot of cool things using oscilloscope so decided to spend some money and buy one. Read a lot about 1054z as almost all the channels showcased it. Read reviews and liked it a lot. Enquired locally (I am from India), and found that two of the Indian companies are selling DSOs which are nothing but Siglent oscilloscopes. I couldn't find a Rigol distributor easily so decided to explore the Siglent path.

Last Monday, my new SDS1202X-E arrived and I tried a few things already on it. It is fast. Lot of complains related to firmware and issues are making me feel little worried but the cards are dealt.

Based on the pricing, I don't think I could have got a better deal TBH. 1052E from Rigol is much inferior to 1202X-E and 1054Z was almost 80-100 USD expensive for me including shipping. I steered away from Hantek and didn't had budget to explore Keysight 1000x series.

Thank you EEVBlog...

[rf-loop]

1052E from Rigol is much inferior to 1202X-E and 1054Z was almost 80-100 USD expensive for me including shipping. I steered away from Hantek and didn't had budget to explore Keysight 1000x series.

Rigol 1052E have nothing to compare with Siglent. It is so extremely far away from this class. Of we look The Oscilloscope performance also Rigol 1054Z is just like total toy if we really talk about oscilloscope performace. Only what this Rigol Z box have over Siglent 1kX-E (or Siglent 1kX/X+) is count of channels. But if we look performance it is reality that Siglent is far over.  Just fef points: Rigol total crap Sin(x)/x joke just like in total toy.  Siglent works in this thing like professional test equipment.   Rigol analog front end. Highest true sensitivity is 5mV/div and noisy as hell. Siglent 1kX/X+/X-E  full BW full resolution 500uV/div.
Siglent have real time continuously bacround working waveform history buffer (up to 54M).
Siglent have true fast Segmented memory acquisition (in X-E model measured quaranteed maximum speed  well over 490kwfm/s (segment/s)  (measured, not only manufacturer claim)
Siglent have full speed hardware based mask test.
Siglent X-E (with this early FW) have around 88kwfm/s max continuous average speed and up to 100kwfm/s peak speed. (measared - not only manufacturer claim)
Siglent have separate channel vertical adjustments.
Siglent have max 10Msample FFT.
Siglent X-E have over 200MHz bandwidth. (note: with two channels on, samplerate is 500MSa/s for both channels. Nyquist "wall" is just 1.25 * 200MHz   (same if Rigol Z box is used in 4 channels mode and 100MHz). It is just barely borderline enough for some purposes but it need user attention and understand some adverse effects.
Siglent automatic measurements accuracy/resolution is very extremely far over both these named Rigols, specially if take Siglent SDS1kX-E.

How about Keysight 1000X

I think Siglent can write on Siglent AD: "Scrap out  toys and take real The Oscilloscope"
(but this is not so clear in all things, not like with Rigol's. But with extremely useful Wfm history buffer and with extremely fast Segmented memory mode Siglent walk hands down circle around this Keyshit 1000X when it try running as fast as it can.  And if Keyshit 1000 X  have as noisy analog front end as Keyshit some 2k models...  ) But if we go to UI and some firmware things. Chinese (of course also including Taiwan island) need still continue developing themselves lot of - includind some things in  inside house working culture.

[ebastler]

Siglent [...]
Siglent [...]
Siglent [...]
Siglent [...]
Siglent [...]
Siglent [...]
Siglent [...]

Mate, you are probably right about most technical points you make. Nevertheless: Are you still a Siglent dealer? If so, I really think you should disclose this in your signature. It would help your credibility.

[karkoon]

Hi,

I just released my 2 worth of video regarding my new SDS-1202X-E. Hope you enjoy!

[boggis the cat]

Hope you enjoy!

Yes.  Good sensible 'beginners' perspective.

The Auto functions can be a bit hit and miss, and I don't recall ever using it on any 'scope with more than one signal applied.  It appears to set the timebase for the slowest signal, which is probably the best approach.  You could check this by simply swapping the signals to each channel and see if it consistently sets the timebase.

Thanks for taking the time to do the video.

[Loboscope]

I am German and so I choose the language German in the 1202X-E - and so I could detect a more droll an funny "bug".
Under Trigger you will find the word "Kuemmerling" which will mean "runt" and is a simple translation of the English word "runt", which has also the meaning of scallywag. In Germany we will not use "Kümmerling" in a technical context and never for a trigger-definition. We also use the original English term "runt".
Siglent will certainly not have native German speakers in their team and so they will have a look in a dictionary for translating the UI. This leads sometimes to funny notions like this one.
Because after all there exists in Germany a schnapps called "Kümmerling" [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuemmerling] and reading this word on a scope, in Germany this schnapps might be the first association. This made me smile.

[karkoon]

I am German and so I choose the language German in the 1202X-E - and so I could detect a more droll an funny "bug".
Under Trigger you will find the word "Kuemmerling" which will mean "runt" and is a simple translation of the English word "runt", which has also the meaning of scallywag. In Germany we will not use "Kümmerling" in a technical context and never for a trigger-definition. We also use the original English term "runt".
Siglent will certainly not have native German speakers in their team and so they will have a look in a dictionary for translating the UI. This leads sometimes to funny notions like this one.
Because after all there exists in Germany a schnapps called "Kümmerling" [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuemmerling] and reading this word on a scope, in Germany this schnapps might be the first association. This made me smile.

Funny!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jono427]

Hi,

I just released my 2 worth of video regarding my new SDS-1202X-E. Hope you enjoy!

Haven't watched the whole thing yet but did see you saw the "Options" button problem.  I sent this to Siglent America and they were sending it to the factory.  The bigger issue is that after you press "Options" the menu page button works, but the display doesn't change - so the buttons are now different than the screen.  I sent them a video, but here is how you can reproduce.  Press "Options" then "Next Page Page 3/3" - Now press the button under "Update" and it will actually take you to the "System Status" screen (which is what that button is on page 1).  Here is the response I got from them:

The are no options on the SDS1202X-E. Serial decode is standard on this unit so no options will be displayed. The second part, pressing the option key and then the "Next Page Page 3/3" looks like a bug to me. I have forwarded this to the factory. No time frame has been given for the next firmware release.

[karkoon]

Hi,

I just released my 2 worth of video regarding my new SDS-1202X-E. Hope you enjoy!

Haven't watched the whole thing yet but did see you saw the "Options" button problem.  I sent this to Siglent America and they were sending it to the factory.  The bigger issue is that after you press "Options" the menu page button works, but the display doesn't change - so the buttons are now different than the screen.  I sent them a video, but here is how you can reproduce.  Press "Options" then "Next Page Page 3/3" - Now press the button under "Update" and it will actually take you to the "System Status" screen (which is what that button is on page 1).  Here is the response I got from them:

The are no options on the SDS1202X-E. Serial decode is standard on this unit so no options will be displayed. The second part, pressing the option key and then the "Next Page Page 3/3" looks like a bug to me. I have forwarded this to the factory. No time frame has been given for the next firmware release.

Thanks. That makes sense. I read the whole manual and there is no mention of options menu. I realised that there is some bug regarding button but I am not missing on anything.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rf-loop]

Yes they made decoding free and then "Option" button is there for nothing - exept if they later develop some (special functions) "options" what can sell separately for funding this zero margin dirty cheap The Oscilloscope, what is fully possible .

btw, looks like there in video is some "user slip" or bit lack of knowledge how oscilloscopes work in different situations, after time position 16:00.  Is it possible this small slip come from analog scopes world where some things may work bit different.


(Imho it works just ok... if I understand enough what you talk and show in video )

Is it good to get first bit more knowledge and experience before start suspect that equipment is wrong...

Specially position around just after 16:18  is good example and it can easy see that the ball seems to be completely lost... specially this wondering about Ch1 signal...    it was fun and there, imho,  scope works just ok. (or it need better explanation what is wrong)

But not so bad overall nice video and perhaps these some "wonderland" things can also use for beginners teaching purposes...  just explain that if you do this you need understand what happen there and why.

7 points wink. Look what is triggering and look what is time scale and think what is your signal... if still do not find the ball...   more home works. 

But as told, nice video and do not take worry about these small slips. These can turn for positive things and these are perhaps also useful for many peoples if it give more image about how things work.

I will ask if manufacturer can do some development. Perhaps they can change "Auto Setup" so that it is enabled only after very short exercise time, example after first 100 hours active use. (passive keep power on is not counted)

[karkoon]

btw, looks like there in video is some "user slip" or bit lack of knowledge how oscilloscopes work in different situations, after time position 16:00.  Is it possible this small slip come from analog scopes world where some things may work bit different.


(Imho it works just ok... if I understand enough what you talk and show in video )

Is it good to get first bit more knowledge and experience before start suspect that equipment is wrong...

Specially position around just after 16:18  is good example and it can easy see that the ball seems to be completely lost... specially this wondering about Ch1 signal...    it was fun and there, imho,  scope works just ok. (or it need better explanation what is wrong)

But not so bad overall nice video and perhaps these some "wonderland" things can also use for beginners teaching purposes...  just explain that if you do this you need understand what happen there and why.

Thank you for confirming.

[TheDefpom]

Hi,

I just released my 2 worth of video regarding my new SDS-1202X-E. Hope you enjoy!

The issue you identify towards the end with being unable to trigger to channel 2 after auto setting on channel 1 is normal, you need to press the setup button and change the trigger source to channel 2, as it will still be set to ch1 even if you turn it off, and so it will not be trying to lock onto the signal on ch2, this is why it works if you press auto again, as that will be changing the trigger to ch2 for you.

The option button you identified is an unused menu, as serial etc are built in it has no options to enable, I already passed that onto siglent recommending that the button be removed to avoid confusion.

Thanks for the mentions too 😉

[tautech]

The option button you identified is an unused menu, as serial etc are built in it has no options to enable, I already passed that onto siglent recommending that the button be removed to avoid confusion.

I don't believe the Option key will be removed permanently or should be.
There is additional functionality that could be offered for the X-E in the future.......if Siglent choose to implement it.

Too early to say what just yet, just some rumors heard. 

[TheDefpom]

The option button you identified is an unused menu, as serial etc are built in it has no options to enable, I already passed that onto siglent recommending that the button be removed to avoid confusion.

I don't believe the Option key will be removed permanently or should be.
There is additional functionality that could be offered for the X-E in the future.......if Siglent choose to implement it.

Too early to say what just yet, just some rumors heard. 

As we discussed though Rob, it could easily be added back if it has a use once again, if the button has to stay, then at least it needs to have a screen pop up saying something like "All options are enabled" or "No options available" etc. a button has to have a function, otherwise it causes confusion, as seen.

[karkoon]

Hi,

I just released my 2 worth of video regarding my new SDS-1202X-E. Hope you enjoy!

The issue you identify towards the end with being unable to trigger to channel 2 after auto setting on channel 1 is normal, you need to press the setup button and change the trigger source to channel 2, as it will still be set to ch1 even if you turn it off, and so it will not be trying to lock onto the signal on ch2, this is why it works if you press auto again, as that will be changing the trigger to ch2 for you.

Thanks for the mentions too [emoji6]

Thank you so much. Your video convinced me that I can go for the scope despite of all the noise.

Your videos are awesome.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[karkoon]

Released an errata video about my auto-setup feature understanding.

https://youtu.be/rd_sfPpiZJk

Thanks.

[rf-loop]

About FFT. Tiny example.




(there is 455kHz (Radio receiver IF) signal first with 100Hz and after then 120Hz modulation. (Carrier level 1Vrms (0dBVrms) and in both cases modualtion 20%. (with 20% AM mod both sidebands are -20dBc)

Of course 100Hz from carrier can see, and as can see resolution is well enough for separate 20Hz (100Hz and 120Hz peaks) with this frequency. Of course if we rise f Nyquist also resolution change - this is FFT.

Pity there is not 50ohm inputs so it can not show dBm (power) scale.


Please Siglent:

Add function that if user use external 50ohm termination then user can tell it to scope (select External 50 ohm) and after then dBm is available as example in SDS1000X(X+ series.
With rf works dBm is normal and very common way to tell levels what everyone knows and use.  Of course every user can calculate but this is waste of time when scope can do it simply for me.

[Loboscope]

Another observation I could make: When I looked at some higher frequencies, for example 25 MHz (this is the maximum of my SDG1025) and I hit the "Run/Stop"-button to stop and freeze the image, I did notice, that the curve-trace will be deformed a little bit. Please look at picture SDS1202X-E-11.
This will not occur, when I will print the image without stopping the aquisition. (Pic. SDS1202X-E12).
Also at lower frequencies below about 15 MHz I could not notice this phenomenon. Unfortunately I can not do some tests above 25 MHz because I do not have a signal-generator which will deliver more than 25 MHz, but I guess this phenomenon will become more worse the higher the frequency will be.
The Rigol 1104Z will perform here without problems (Pic. DS1Z_QuickPrint1).

I worry that this behavior will be more than a little flaw, but probably a serious bug. Because you will always be sure that the waveform the scope shows in Stop-Mode will be exactly the real shape of the signal and not a more or less randomly deformed pattern down to the whim of the scope. A scope must be reliable (within its specs) or it is worth nothing ...

[Glowtape]

From how it looks the Siglent freezes and specifically displays a single waveform at the trigger point, where as Rigol stops on an average it got while unfreezed. Note the blurred waveform. I'd wager that if you can make the Rigol display a single waveform, it'll look the same.

[IAmBack]

About FFT. Tiny example.

(there is 455kHz (Radio receiver IF) signal first with 100Hz and after then 120Hz modulation. (Carrier level 1Vrms (0dBVrms) and in both cases modualtion 20%. (with 20% AM mod both sidebands are -20dBc)

Of course 100Hz from carrier can see, and as can see resolution is well enough for separate 20Hz (100Hz and 120Hz peaks) with this frequency. Of course if we rise f Nyquist also resolution change - this is FFT.

Can You show us, how looks FFT for a low frequency signals, like 1kHz square wave?

[mikeselectricstuff]

As we discussed though Rob, it could easily be added back if it has a use once again, if the button has to stay, then at least it needs to have a screen pop up saying something like "All options are enabled" or "No options available" etc. a button has to have a function, otherwise it causes confusion, as seen.

Or turn it into a quick-access button for a user-defined function, like the "Quick action" button on the Keysight models.

[kcbrown]

From how it looks the Siglent freezes and specifically displays a single waveform at the trigger point, where as Rigol stops on an average it got while unfreezed. Note the blurred waveform. I'd wager that if you can make the Rigol display a single waveform, it'll look the same.

That's what I would have thought, too, but the presented waveform doesn't look quite like what I would expect to see from sin(x)/x interpolation.

I suppose the only way to really know would be to see the dot mode capture under the same circumstances.

@Loboscope: can you repeat your first test, and show the same stopped capture in both sin(x)/x and dots modes?   It has to be the same stopped capture because a different capture is likely to have different points and thus a slightly different shape.  I'd think it should be possible to switch sin(x)/x on and off even with the scope stopped.

[tautech]

As we discussed though Rob, it could easily be added back if it has a use once again, if the button has to stay, then at least it needs to have a screen pop up saying something like "All options are enabled" or "No options available" etc. a button has to have a function, otherwise it causes confusion, as seen.

Or turn it into a quick-access button for a user-defined function, like the "Quick action" button on the Keysight models.

There are spare buttons in the UI that could be assigned to any number of things.
For the time being the Option button need only be changed to indicate there are NO additional options at this time.

[rf-loop]

There is nothing wrong. In stop mode you get one single shot, one waveform. One of these waveforms what are stacked in one frame. Nothing is changed in capture data. Curve is NOT deformed, only displayed one single curve instead of display many stacked curves overlayed.

In run mode there is perhaps  lot of waveforms stacked in one display frame.

Example, if scope capture in some situation 10000 wfm/s, one TFT frame  may have 400 last captured waveforms stacked. (refresh cycle 40ms)

Of course it can work so that if stop scope it keep these all stacked wfms - but this keep last one.  If you want more after stop...   go to history viewer  and look how many previous waveforms there are in history buffer. When you playback these you can also get image where last wfms are stacked on the screen.  And if you make playback very slow you can see these individual wfms separately (use example 100 or 200ms interval in playback)

Also you can look if you use slow or fast acquisition mode (selection can find in acquisition menu)

[rf-loop]

From how it looks the Siglent freezes and specifically displays a single waveform at the trigger point, where as Rigol stops on an average it got while unfreezed. Note the blurred waveform. I'd wager that if you can make the Rigol display a single waveform, it'll look the same.

That's what I would have thought, too, but the presented waveform doesn't look quite like what I would expect to see from sin(x)/x interpolation.

Think again. There is 1GSa/s and 10ns/div.  Sinc function is not "smooth" function over several sample points.

[Loboscope]

From how it looks the Siglent freezes and specifically displays a single waveform at the trigger point, where as Rigol stops on an average it got while unfreezed. Note the blurred waveform. I'd wager that if you can make the Rigol display a single waveform, it'll look the same.

That's what I would have thought, too, but the presented waveform doesn't look quite like what I would expect to see from sin(x)/x interpolation.

I suppose the only way to really know would be to see the dot mode capture under the same circumstances.

@Loboscope: can you repeat your first test, and show the same stopped capture in both sin(x)/x and dots modes?   It has to be the same stopped capture because a different capture is likely to have different points and thus a slightly different shape.  I'd think it should be possible to switch sin(x)/x on and off even with the scope stopped.

Indeed, this "exercise" was very insructive!
I did set aquire to dot-mode and sin(x)/x at both scopes (on the Rigol here you cannot change sin(x)/x to x like at the Siglent). Then I stopped the scopes and took the first screenshots in dot-mode (SDS1202X-E18 and DS1Z_QuickPrint3). Then I changed the displays to vectors and voilà: now the Rigol also shows the slightly deformed pattern like the Siglent (SDS1202X-E19 and DS1Z_QuickPrint4).

Insofar the Siglent would have shown me the true pattern of the SDG1025 (obviously working at its limit, but I never noticed this before, I mostly use lower frequencies working with audio-stuff) in Stop-Mode and it was the Rigol who did show me a "lie".
Thanks for revealing this phenomenon to me!
And thanks @rf-loop for your explanation!

By the way: Saving the screenshots to USB works really fast on the 1202X-E.
 

[StillTrying]

As a compromise between the single pixel drawn lines and the blur-o-vision I like to use dot mode with 1 or 2 sec. of persistence when possible.

[kcbrown]

Think again. There is 1GSa/s and 10ns/div.  Sinc function is not "smooth" function over several sample points.

True.  I was mainly surprised to see the artifacts given that the signal generator should be emitting a reasonably pure sine wave (not completely spectrally pure, of course) even though 25MHz is its highest frequency.  I would have expected any spectral impurities in a single capture to not actually be so visible to the eye.  But I suppose, in hindsight, the expectation one should have would be dictated by implementation details of the generator that aren't likely to be published.

The artifacts are obviously random, though, enough so that the persistence-based display shows a sine wave that is missing the artifacts (or, at least, the artifacts are diminished enough to make them difficult for this neophyte's eyes to detect).

Anyway, the supplied screenshots make it clear what's going on, and it's interesting to see how the Rigol and the Siglent differ in their displayed results here.

[rf-loop]

About FFT. Tiny example.

(there is 455kHz (Radio receiver IF) signal first with 100Hz and after then 120Hz modulation. (Carrier level 1Vrms (0dBVrms) and in both cases modualtion 20%. (with 20% AM mod both sidebands are -20dBc)

Of course 100Hz from carrier can see, and as can see resolution is well enough for separate 20Hz (100Hz and 120Hz peaks) with this frequency. Of course if we rise f Nyquist also resolution change - this is FFT.

Can You show us, how looks FFT for a low frequency signals, like 1kHz square wave?

Here some examples with 1kHz and 100Hz square, risetime and fall time 6ns.

[IAmBack]

About FFT. Tiny example.

(there is 455kHz (Radio receiver IF) signal first with 100Hz and after then 120Hz modulation. (Carrier level 1Vrms (0dBVrms) and in both cases modualtion 20%. (with 20% AM mod both sidebands are -20dBc)

Of course 100Hz from carrier can see, and as can see resolution is well enough for separate 20Hz (100Hz and 120Hz peaks) with this frequency. Of course if we rise f Nyquist also resolution change - this is FFT.

Can You show us, how looks FFT for a low frequency signals, like 1kHz square wave?

Here some examples with 1kHz and 100Hz square, risetime and fall time 6ns.

Looks pretty nice. Thanks.

[tautech]

Some comments from the Xilinx forum:
https://forums.xilinx.com/t5/Xcell-Daily-Blog/Dave-Jones-tears-down-the-new-lt-400-Zynq-powered-Siglent/ba-p/758656

[nctnico]

That is not a forum but a Xilinx employee spouting marketing BS trying to get as many buzzwords in there for Google to pickup!

[boggis the cat]

This is what made the GW Instek models better than Rigol and Siglent.  By using the same more powerful processor, Siglent have made a 'scope that responds quickly.  Cutting the component count down has also brought the cost down.

Rigol will certainly follow suite, and use either this product line or something similar in their new models -- which would be a good thing.

There are no advantages to a slow, erratic, UI.  It also makes me wonder if the 'scope with such behaviour is able to keep up with the data processing, or if issues may be present from missed samples.  (Not stuff that is checked during calibration, by the way.  Basic functions may meet spec and be fine, but the product still be poor and ill-suited for particular tasks.)

[pascal_sweden]

Any forum users out here, who want to do a detailed video review of the serial decoding?

[karkoon]

Any forum users out here, who want to do a detailed video review of the serial decoding?

I can volunteer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pascal_sweden]

I look forward to your detailed review on decoding!

It would be nice to check if the decoding is implemented in hardware.

Maybe it is possible to telnet or open an ssh connection to the scope, and run the Linux "top" command to check the overall processor load and the load of individual processes.

This way you could have the "top" command running in a terminal window, to monitor the processor load for various decoding scenarios, and confirm or at least have a good indication whether the decoding is implemented in software or in hardware.

You could do this for different time bases and memory settings, and for single and dual channel configurations.

You could also do this for the decoding of various supported protocols, to check if the processor load is the same for all the protocols, or if there is a significant difference between different protocols.

[karkoon]

Sure. Thank you very much for instructing me on how to do this. I am an oscilloscope noob.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MatCat]

Just got my SDS1202X-E 2 weeks ago.   

[pascal_sweden]

Just got my SDS1202X-E 2 weeks ago.   

MatCat becomes HappyCat

[tautech]

Just got my SDS1202X-E 2 weeks ago.   

MatCat becomes HappyCat

We'll all be happier still when the new FW is released. Siglent told me this week, let's hope it is. 

[pascal_sweden]

Bringing this original thread for the Siglent SDS1202X-E oscilloscope back into the picture.

I have updated the title with SDS1202X-E as this is actually the only model in the SDS1000X-E series.

[rf-loop]

Bringing this original thread for the Siglent SDS1202X-E oscilloscope back into the picture.

I have updated the title with SDS1202X-E as this is actually the only model in the SDS1000X-E series.

China have nearly 1400M peoples and  US and EU togther have around 840M.
In China there is SDS1072X-E, SDS1102X-E and SDS1202X-E. (Information is based on the manufacturer's official website in China 16.07.2017)
So, it is still SDS1000X-E serie.

Here in some external countries markets is, at least for now, available only one model: SDS1202X-E

[coppice]

Bringing this original thread for the Siglent SDS1202X-E oscilloscope back into the picture.

I have updated the title with SDS1202X-E as this is actually the only model in the SDS1000X-E series.

China have nearly 1400M peoples and  US and EU togther have around 840M.
In China there is SDS1072X-E, SDS1102X-E and SDS1202X-E. (Information is based on the manufacturer's official website in China 16.07.2017)
So, it is still SDS1000X-E serie.

Here in some external countries markets is, at least for now, available only one model: SDS1202X-E

I think that page is just their original abandoned marketing plan, along with much higher prices than they finally set. I think the only model in China is the 200MHz one.

[rf-loop]

Bringing this original thread for the Siglent SDS1202X-E oscilloscope back into the picture.

I have updated the title with SDS1202X-E as this is actually the only model in the SDS1000X-E series.

China have nearly 1400M peoples and  US and EU togther have around 840M.
In China there is SDS1072X-E, SDS1102X-E and SDS1202X-E. (Information is based on the manufacturer's official website in China 16.07.2017)
So, it is still SDS1000X-E serie.

Here in some external countries markets is, at least for now, available only one model: SDS1202X-E

I think that page is just their original abandoned marketing plan, along with much higher prices than they finally set. I think the only model in China is the 200MHz one.

Also SDS1000X-C

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.20141002.4.2e538ffeqpdnD8&scm=1007.10009.70205.100200300000001&id=550667103914&pvid=4b0a921c-2185-406b-b517-2fd189df0f82

Look these some ( ding yang classroom ) images in this Taobao sales ad

[coppice]

Also SDS1000X-C

The SDS1000X-C is an older design than the -E.

[rf-loop]

Also SDS1000X-C

The SDS1000X-C is an older design than the -E.

Fun that it also have 1M FFT.

[pascal_sweden]

Look these some ( ding yang classroom ) images in this Taobao sales ad

The Siglent Engineering Program

[tautech]

SDS1202X-E firmware update
Version 5.1.3.13
5.4 Mb

http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/SDS1000X-E_5.1.3.13.zip

Changelog
1. Cursor values not correct if probe attenuation was not set to 1X
2. Removed channel input impedance of 50?
3. Added external load setting to FFT menu. If using an external load, amplitudes can be shown in dBm
4. Repaired intermittent lock up after enabling decoding function
5. Optimized translation for German and English menus and pop messages
6. Removed Option label from UI
7. Corrected cursor measurements for active Zoom with FFT
8. Added telnet(port 5024) and open socket(port 5025) for LAN communication
9. Fixed blank zoom bug. With both channels at 2 ms/div, 7 Mpts, and a zoom of 500 ns/div, the zoom window would blank.
10. Fixed decode threshold levels for 10X probe attenuation selection.
11. Fixed average mode. After pressing [Run/Stop] to halt acquisition, the display changed to the last waveform, rather than maintaining the averaged waveform
12. Remain the final message for firmware update until rebooted
13. Fixed the issue with Chinese language setting after self- calibration.
14. Fixed the CAN source bug. If the source selected was CANH or CANL, decode would not work correctly.
15. Decreased waveform jitter with active measurements or math with horizontal delay out of the screen.
16. Added progress information while saving CSV files.
17. Fixed the Cycle RMS measurement does not update when the input signal changes
18. Keep “Print” picture type in accordance with the type selected from “Save/Recall”
19. Fixed user file renaming of a previously saved file.
20. Enabled decoding for time bases above 20ms/div.
21. Disable menu if cursors, measurement and math is disabled
22. Finished updates to support EasyScopeX and Labview driver.
23. Optimized channel self-calibration

[karkoon]

Yay!


Typed with thumbs.

[rf-loop]

SDS1202X-E firmware update
Version 5.1.3.13
5.4 Mb

http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/SDS1000X-E_5.1.3.13.zip

Changelog
1. Cursor values not correct if probe attenuation was not set to 1X
2. Removed channel input impedance of 50?
3. Added external load setting to FFT menu. If using an external load, amplitudes can be shown in dBm
4. Repaired intermittent lock up after enabling decoding function
5. Optimized translation for German and English menus and pop messages
6. Removed Option label from UI
7. Corrected cursor measurements for active Zoom with FFT
8. Added telnet(port 5024) and open socket(port 5025) for LAN communication
9. Fixed blank zoom bug. With both channels at 2 ms/div, 7 Mpts, and a zoom of 500 ns/div, the zoom window would blank.
10. Fixed decode threshold levels for 10X probe attenuation selection.
11. Fixed average mode. After pressing [Run/Stop] to halt acquisition, the display changed to the last waveform, rather than maintaining the averaged waveform
12. Remain the final message for firmware update until rebooted
13. Fixed the issue with Chinese language setting after self- calibration.
14. Fixed the CAN source bug. If the source selected was CANH or CANL, decode would not work correctly.
15. Decreased waveform jitter with active measurements or math with horizontal delay out of the screen.
16. Added progress information while saving CSV files.
17. Fixed the Cycle RMS measurement does not update when the input signal changes
18. Keep “Print” picture type in accordance with the type selected from “Save/Recall”
19. Fixed user file renaming of a previously saved file.
20. Enabled decoding for time bases above 20ms/div.
21. Disable menu if cursors, measurement and math is disabled
22. Finished updates to support EasyScopeX and Labview driver.

And
23. Optimized channel self-calibration

[borjam]

I think that page is just their original abandoned marketing plan, along with much higher prices than they finally set. I think the only model in China is the 200MHz one.

I think it makes a lot of sense and it's also good news.

It is quite crazy to offer many optional features for an instrument aimed at hobbyists. The purchase process is not the same
as it is at a company. Releasing a single model with all the extensions enabled makes everything much simpler. Yes, developing
decoding software costs money, but they will recover the costs if they just happen to sell tons of units.

And it's good news because competition is getting fierce and I imagine that Rigol will follow suite. After all, they are virtually
selling an "all you can eat" model with the easy to hack DS1000Z. And I guess that they have reviewed the sales figures and
realized that, options or not, the thing sells pretty well thanks in part to the hackability factor.

I imagine (maybe it's wishful thinking) that this move from Siglent will compel the competition to sell at least a model or
two simply priced oscilloscopes mostly aimed at amateur usage.

By the way, I own a DS1074Z and I have purchased a SDS1202X-E mostly out of curiosity. I think they have done a pretty good
job. The firmware and user interfaces in both would certainly enjoy some maturing, but who could dream of getting this level of
performance at a comparable price 10 years ago?

[rf-loop]

I think that page is just their original abandoned marketing plan, along with much higher prices than they finally set. I think the only model in China is the 200MHz one.

I think it makes a lot of sense and it's also good news.

It is quite crazy to offer many optional features for an instrument aimed at hobbyists. The purchase process is not the same
as it is at a company. Releasing a single model with all the extensions enabled makes everything much simpler. Yes, developing
decoding software costs money, but they will recover the costs if they just happen to sell tons of units.

And it's good news because competition is getting fierce and I imagine that Rigol will follow suite. After all, they are virtually
selling an "all you can eat" model with the easy to hack DS1000Z. And I guess that they have reviewed the sales figures and
realized that, options or not, the thing sells pretty well thanks in part to the hackability factor.

I imagine (maybe it's wishful thinking) that this move from Siglent will compel the competition to sell at least a model or
two simply priced oscilloscopes mostly aimed at amateur usage.

By the way, I own a DS1074Z and I have purchased a SDS1202X-E mostly out of curiosity. I think they have done a pretty good
job. The firmware and user interfaces in both would certainly enjoy some maturing, but who could dream of getting this level of
performance at a comparable price 10 years ago?

Lets think about marketing and lets think only one segment (what is poorly understooded in China)
So lets think segment name hobbyists and  some not highest grade sub segment there.

Trivial simplified example.
We have two equal oskcilloscope if think overall building quality and same total functions features.
A is hackable and B is not.  Both have same price.

B is not hackable and there is options 1 and 2 and 3  all working out from carton and price 500.
A is hackable and price 500 without options.  With hack you get same options 1, 2 and 3. But if you buy options each cost 100 - in price list.
. manufacturer have designed it for hack but of course do not tell it public. But  leaks it as designed by leaking some winks how to hack ... and they keep this hacking show on and continuing.

Both are functionally same, same quality, same features.

Just clever marketing and A wins markets just  hands down.  (or then not)


Every single people can understand that company who make A can stop (enough easy) hackability just if they want do it... but this they do not want do so that  buyers... they feel they win something and also it is not so boring as this equipment what do not give this hack hobby for keep fun and discussions continuing.. is this possible, is that possible do this FW version work for hack, do I need downgrade  and who have tried this and that and I have done this and that, just for fun as what ever hobby.

This is just carefully designed marketing trick after hit this marketing trick accidentally in history and find how well it works for boom sales up.
Also there need do fake cases what looks like they try prevent hack....  oh well, who is so simple that believe this. If they want stop hack is is fewline of code and it ends. (of course difficult hacks perhaps still possible but this don not need care... no one do it exept in dreams)

Now all company can do same. Now competite who is more hackable...  perhaps need rise hackable options prices so that hackers feel more win.  Who is winner, manufacturer or hacker. I believe in final line manufacturer win money but hacker win feel that he have win - andthia last one is important.

[jcbottorff]

Has anybody measured the USB and Ethernet (VXI-11) transfer speeds of this scope? I'm fiddling with some software control of lower cost oscilloscopes, and have been disappointed in the transfer speeds on my Rigol DS2000A series scope. Even though the DS2000A has a 100 mbps ethernet interface, real transfer rates are only 5% of the wire speed (screen dump) and even worse for waveform capture (about 200KB/sec). The USB transfer speeds are a little bit better, like screen dumps get up to a little over a megabyte/sec, which is still pretty slow for a wire than can move 35-40 MBytes/sec. I have my own VXI-11 and USBTMC protocol code, and have played with a variety of blocks sizes, without much improvement.

I'l like to see a scope with transfer speeds a significant fraction of the wire speed. Actually, I'd like to see a knobless low cost scope (the analog front end and the digitizer in a small box) with a USB 3.1 (10 gbps now) or USB-C Thunderbolt 3 interface (40 gbps), and good software. 

[oleh]

Has anybody measured the USB and Ethernet (VXI-11) transfer speeds of this scope? I'm fiddling with some software control of lower cost oscilloscopes, and have been disappointed in the transfer speeds on my Rigol DS2000A series scope. Even though the DS2000A has a 100 mbps ethernet interface, real transfer rates are only 5% of the wire speed (screen dump) and even worse for waveform capture (about 200KB/sec). The USB transfer speeds are a little bit better, like screen dumps get up to a little over a megabyte/sec, which is still pretty slow for a wire than can move 35-40 MBytes/sec. I have my own VXI-11 and USBTMC protocol code, and have played with a variety of blocks sizes, without much improvement.

I'l like to see a scope with transfer speeds a significant fraction of the wire speed. Actually, I'd like to see a knobless low cost scope (the analog front end and the digitizer in a small box) with a USB 3.1 (10 gbps now) or USB-C Thunderbolt 3 interface (40 gbps), and good software.

I'm 100%  agree with what you are saying.  The only way I how to solve it - to put open source software on this, without doubts, excellent hardware. Like Linux was put on PC 26 years ago. As I found from some off-topic device, it uses up to 90% of open source code anyway. I was able to identify matching sources based on a firmware eyeballing.
I don't know if the community was able to open what is hidden in the Siglent firmware.

[skander36]

SDS1202X-E firmware update
Version 5.1.3.13
5.4 Mb

http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/SDS1000X-E_5.1.3.13.zip

Changelog

And
23. Optimized channel self-calibration

HI !
Sorry to say but this was not solved . On my scope the auto setup is working only  from second try in a 70-80% cases . If this is optimizing I thing the former version was disastrous ... 
On my previous scope Rigol 1054Z this was never happened . It took longer but never fail . I wish that will be the same on Siglent .
And btw. after firmware update the auto-setup was not functioned at all until I do a self calibration .
Overall the software quality is way better on Rigol 1000-Z  than Siglent 1202X-E . The same as with construction quality (LCD and passive components used)  . The UI on Siglent even it seem faster than Rigol it is more erratic in that it has some weird latches . . .
Facts : In two months  of using Rigol only one time UI was stuck (solved with just a push of one button) , but after a day with Siglent I was needed to unplug it for three times (one of them after a UART decoding attempt when press the auto setup key, bug that is mentioned as solved in last firmware update list).
- When I try to change different memory capture option nothing is happen on the screen . On Rigol when change from 12K to 12M there was a very clear difference .
-what is ERES ? If this refer to Enhanced RESolution  why is so slow . Compared with Rigol HIRES (12bit) , it's a joke .
- Strong points for siglent are BW - 200 MHz , color temp. function (good looking but quite useless), FFT , speed of the wfs updates and automotive decoding options .

Another crash point (reproducible) is when I try to do a FFT in split screen on internal test signal (calibration 1KHz) after push the auto-setup button the scope became unresponsive . No reaction of none of the buttons nor power button . Only unplug from power .
Need to mention that in the meantime on the upper region (which show the real signal) the signal is not freeze , but continue to oscillate .

Can someone verify the situations described ?

[asmi]

Every single people can understand that company who make A can stop (enough easy) hackability just if they want do it... but this they do not want do so that  buyers... they feel they win something and also it is not so boring as this equipment what do not give this hack hobby for keep fun and discussions continuing.. is this possible, is that possible do this FW version work for hack, do I need downgrade  and who have tried this and that and I have done this and that, just for fun as what ever hobby.

This is just carefully designed marketing trick after hit this marketing trick accidentally in history and find how well it works for boom sales up.
Also there need do fake cases what looks like they try prevent hack....  oh well, who is so simple that believe this. If they want stop hack is is fewline of code and it ends. (of course difficult hacks perhaps still possible but this don not need care... no one do it exept in dreams)

Now all company can do same. Now competite who is more hackable...  perhaps need rise hackable options prices so that hackers feel more win.  Who is winner, manufacturer or hacker. I believe in final line manufacturer win money but hacker win feel that he have win - andthia last one is important.

There is another subtle advantage for the company that makes unofficially hackable stuff - it can save money on warranty as it voids whenever one does the hack.

[ebastler]

There is another subtle advantage for the company that makes unofficially hackable stuff - it can save money on warranty as it voids whenever one does the hack.

Yes, a company could use that excuse to reduce warranty claims. Regarding Rigol however, which is our prime example for "hackable, and they might have left that door open intentionally": I have not read of any instance where Rigol refused a warranty claim because options were installed via "hacked" keys. No need to spread FUD here.

[borjam]

Now, something curious about my unit. Upon power up there is some drift in the vertical amplifiers, especially for the second channel.





After an hour powered up it gets much better (note, I have the habit of powering up equipment for an hour before doing a self calibration or any meaningful measure).

[Fungus]

Now, something curious about my unit. Upon power up there is some drift in the vertical amplifiers, especially for the second channel.

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

After an hour powered up it gets much better (note, I have the habit of powering up equipment for an hour before doing a self calibration or any meaningful measure).

(Attachment Link)

That's probably normal, it happens on my Rigol, too.

(but it gets better after about five minutes, not an hour...)

You always have to let it warm up before calibration. Also calibrate a few times a year to compensate for seasonal temperature changes.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

At least it's quite zippy not a snail, the Rigols are insufferable and (it seems) do that too

[Fungus]

At least it's quite zippy not a snail, the Rigols are insufferable and (it seems) do that too

Funny you should mention that.

I just made a video showing Dave dicking around with the vertical controls on some 'scopes. The Rigol doesn't look slower than the Siglent to me.   

The Instek, OTOH... wow!

Video here: https://streamable.com/wd38s

[boggis the cat]

I just made a video showing Dave dicking around with the vertical controls on some 'scopes. The Rigol doesn't look slower than the Siglent to me.   

The Instek, OTOH... wow!

Rigols are painful to use certain functions on due to the very laggy UI.  Just moving the signals around on screen can be frustrating, and trying to align measurement cursors is annoying.  An instrument that struggles to respond to user input at default settings is poorly designed, IMO.

Hopefully the newer models (e.g. the DS1202Z-E) have faster processors to make the UI at least acceptably responsive.

I have only come across a handful of GW Instek 'scopes, but they seemed a lot better than the Rigols for responsiveness.  IIRC one of the worst 'scopes for this, given the asking price, was a low-end LeCroy badged unit – an early Siglent?  Some of the newer mid-range Tektronix units are pretty poor, too.  I don't understand why a responsive UI isn't a minimal fitness for purpose requirement.

[skander36]

At least it's quite zippy not a snail, the Rigols are insufferable and (it seems) do that too

Funny you should mention that.

I just made a video showing Dave dicking around with the vertical controls on some 'scopes. The Rigol doesn't look slower than the Siglent to me.   

The Instek, OTOH... wow!

Video here: https://streamable.com/wd38s

In the movie the frames with GW Instek are faster than with the Rigols , I mean that that they look pitched up . The hand movements are unnaturally .
You should put Keysight 1000 (from this category) series to show how responsive must be a scope.
Rigol is laggy indeed and the new model 5000 is the laggiest I have .
The Rigol 2102E is far more responsive with the faster update screen than 5000 series . In fact seem to be a little speddy than SDS 1202X-E.

[nctnico]

Don't get too hung up on responsiveness alone. It is also the user interface itself which is good or bad. Needing to press 10 buttons in a fast UI is worse than pressing 2 buttons in a slow UI. The GW Insteks have buttons beside and below the screen. This makes these scopes super fast to operate compared to oscilloscopes which have to cram all the menus in a single row of buttons. A touch-screen with a touch-screen optimised UI is even quicker to operate.