New Siglent SPD4000X series power supply

[oewean]

Siglent has a new power supply, SPD4000X series.
Looks nice and well speced.

https://www.siglent.com/products-overview/spd4000x/

[blurpy]

Video here:


Looks like only 2 of the channels are 32 volts.

[mawyatt]

Looks like they got the banana terminals finally spaced properly 

Seem relatively expensive compared to the SPD3303X-E, altho having 4 channels like the GPP-4323 is nice, as is remote sense on 2 channels

Best,

[nctnico]

Looks like they got the banana terminals finally spaced properly 

And it has a numeric keypad.

[Antonio90]

Is it made by GWInstek?

[2N3055]

Is it made by GWInstek?

What kind of question is that?

They are both manufacturers.
Others rebrand their products, respectively....

[nctnico]

Is it made by GWInstek?

What kind of question is that?

A very logical one as Siglent and GW Instek have sold the same power supply before.

On second look I notice the USB-A is at the back instead of on the front. Who thought of that?

[2N3055]

Is it made by GWInstek?

What kind of question is that?

A very logical one as Siglent and GW Instek have sold the same power supply before.

Seriously ?
I had no idea that was the case...
Which one?

As far as I know that is not so now...

[Antonio90]

Is it made by GWInstek?

What kind of question is that?

They are both manufacturers.
Others rebrand their products, respectively....

Just curious, my apologies if it's a stupid question. It struck me as quite similar to the GPP range, visually speaking and in terms of layout. Not saying they are identical, but I wouldn't be surprised if they share the front-panel PCB, or use a very similar one.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, The SPD3303X-E shares at least the output stages with a GWInstek PSU, can't remember which.

I don't say that as a bad thing, I quite like GWInstek.

[tautech]

Looks like they got the banana terminals finally spaced properly 

FYI
SPD1000X models use 19mm terminal spacings.

A very logical one as Siglent and GW Instek have sold the same power supply before.

I too ask for qualification for this statement.

On second look I notice the USB-A is at the back instead of on the front. Who thought of that?

To date, none of the Siglent linear PSU's had a USB A port at all and this is a welcome addition to the range so to not need PC SW to update firmware and use USB external memory to store/load setup/config files.

[2N3055]

Is it made by GWInstek?

What kind of question is that?

They are both manufacturers.
Others rebrand their products, respectively....

Just curious, my apologies if it's a stupid question. It struck me as quite similar to the GPP range, visually speaking and in terms of layout. Not saying they are identical, but I wouldn't be surprised if they share the front-panel PCB, or use a very similar one.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, The SPD3303X-E shares at least the output stages with a GWInstek PSU, can't remember which.

I don't say that as a bad thing, I quite like GWInstek.

No not stupid, I was just confused because AFAIK they don't do rebrands, other rebrand their products.. I'm not aware of any collaboration with GW Instek in that regard.
And yes,I like GW Instek too, very decent company and products.

[nctnico]

Is it made by GWInstek?

What kind of question is that?

They are both manufacturers.
Others rebrand their products, respectively....

Just curious, my apologies if it's a stupid question. It struck me as quite similar to the GPP range, visually speaking and in terms of layout. Not saying they are identical, but I wouldn't be surprised if they share the front-panel PCB, or use a very similar one.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, The SPD3303X-E shares at least the output stages with a GWInstek PSU, can't remember which.

The GW Instek GPD-3303S shares the same construction and the same output stage. And it wouldn't surprise me if this collaboration goes much further than this product. After all, GW Instek has a much longer history designing power products compared to Siglent. It wouldn't make sense re-invent the wheel just to satisfy NIH syndrom.

[tautech]

Looks like only 2 of the channels are 32 volts.

And 6A each.
SPD4306X looks the most interesting/capable model with two 30V 6A and two 15V 1.5A outputs which if can be seriesed/paralleled provides for a useful range of outputs.....
60V 6A or 30V 12A would be very handy for some.

[Martin72]

Looks nice

Not for me, although I generally have a problem with the look of today's power supply units, which are becoming more and more overloaded and pop-colored.
The second point, which is not so interesting for private use, is the terminals.
At work, we only use 4 mm safety test leads, which don't fit in there.
No, for once I'm not impressed by a siglent product, I like the 4-channel from GW Instek much better, both visually and in terms of the connections.

[tautech]

The second point, which is not so interesting for private use, is the terminals.
At work, we only use 4 mm safety test leads, which don't fit in there.

Shrouded retractable ones ? 

[Antonio90]

The Instek is quite nice, although 33% more expensive than the equivalent Siglent (chinese MSRP)
Will any of the Siglent offerings operate on two quadrants as the GPP?

I have a GPD-4303S, which I like quite a bit except for the fact that it can only turn on and off all channels at once. I did burn a cheap 3v chinese scale with 20v by mistake thanks to that. Also, no numpad. This looks like a very good replacement.

[Martin72]

Shrouded retractable ones ? 

We have a few dozen of them as a temporary solution for our old devices without safety bananas(until they will be replaced).
I'm certainly not going to buy appx 300 new cables so that I can use a power supply unit with such terminals
In addition, these sliding sleeve cables are mechanically fragile and of poor quality, even though they come from Hirschmann.

[tautech]

In addition, these sliding sleeve cables are mechanically fragile and of poor quality, even though they come from Hirschmann.

Hmmm, never had such problems with the 100's we've supplied from Aliexpress. 

However we did get a sample shipment for assessment before bulk purchase.

[Martin72]

Hmmm, never had such problems with the 100's we've supplied from Aliexpress.

We use them daily under partly rough conditions, not only to connect something that is on a lab table.

[temperance]

hm, keypad and 1 rotary encoder... So you want to adjust the output voltage on CH1. You turn the encoder and ooops, magic smoke. You just adjusted CH2.

I don't like those power supplies for generic daily use and prefer supplies with separate pot's or encoders for current and voltage for each channel.

[nctnico]

Typically I never use the encoder on a PSU with a keypad. Typing in the number is quicker and you can cancel before comitting the new setting.

[tautech]

The second point, which is not so interesting for private use, is the terminals.
At work, we only use 4 mm safety test leads, which don't fit in there.

Dwelling on these comments, I believe many instead will prefer terminals that provide connection options.

Generally the hobbyist prefers multiple connection choices and I certainly do as when I built my first PSU one of the must haves was cross hole drilled binding posts with banana sockets which is just what this new Siglent PSU provides.
This allows for plain wire, fork and banana connections.

OTOH your work you may have different requirements for outputs than the target market Siglent has catered for.

[2N3055]

I don't understand why more manufacturers don't use these...

[NE666]

I don't understand why more manufacturers don't use these...

Yup, and note the sense terminals on the front panel too 

[2N3055]

I don't understand why more manufacturers don't use these...

Yup, and note the sense terminals on the front panel too 

Yep..

[tszaboo]

I don't understand why more manufacturers don't use these...

AIM-TTI. They have some great power supplies we have a bunch of them at work. Nice small, not bloated, quality, quiet, and lot's of features on the front panel.
This one from Siglent, also looks nice, well thought user interface.

[MathWizard]

So these aren't for sale yet? Or only in Asia ? I have the spd3303x and it's great for the low power stuff I've been doing. And adjustable bench PSU's are so convenient and easy, compared to going to the junk box for old dirty SMPS's, or messing around with linear regulators.

I made a 20V 1A CV-CV PSU that's decent enough, but it's only 1 channel. And just working on an AM TX and RX, I would like another channel or 2. I'm forgetting I have another 5V rail on my 3303x, I'm going to use that right now.


I'll be watching for these when I go to get another PSU.

[mawyatt]

The PS is an often overlooked piece of test bench equipment. Having a good multi-channel, low noise, accurate, quiet PS will prove itself in short order when doing lab test & development work. One that doesn't exhibit voltage overshoot at Turn On or Off, and quick, accurate low level Current Limit are important features when working with low voltage circuits like modern CMOS. The 3303X we have (3) have delivered such with only complaints being the unusual terminal spacing (which seems to be corrected in the 4000) and somewhat quirky UI which one quickly gets used too.

We also have a GW Instek 4323, another really nice PS with all those features and 4 controllable/displayed channels. However the "GoTo" PS for most of our lab bench use in the 3303X, it's quick, easy and just gets the job done on the bench without hassle

Best,

[exe]

What are the prices?

[Antonio90]

You can find them in the chart at the end of the chinese Siglent page.
€ 625 for the 2x 6V 3.2A & 2x 32V 3.2A
€ 755: 2x 15V 1.5A & 2x 15V 10A
€ 1009: 2x 15V 1.5A & 2x 30V 10A

All of them are within 0.03% + 0.03 of readback value.
Noise and transient response seem also quite good.

I would compare them with the ~equivalent from GW Instek and pick based on price and support/availability locally, as they do seem to be pretty similar, and I wouldn't be surprised if they share the internals.

[GnomeZA]

I have a SPD3303X-E (hacked to SPD3303X), I'm a hobbyist so I use it weekly (not daily).
The powersupply is superb but the way they have you switch between voltage and current adjust on the current channel and adjust the voltage update and down is atrocious.
I make mistakes all the time because the "fine" key and left right keys are just restrictive and stupidly setup.
It's like they didn't do any usability studies.
It is objectively badly designed in that way.

I really hope the new version improves on that, I feel like this isn't a hard problem to solve.

[BillyO]

The second point, which is not so interesting for private use, is the terminals.
At work, we only use 4 mm safety test leads, which don't fit in there.

I must be missing something but why would you need safety terminals on a LV, LC, short circuit protected PS?

Is it because they are the only leads you have?

It seems a bit of a strange parameter on which to make a purchasing decision.  Especially if it meant you'd have to put up with an inferior power supply.  Maybe you have a ton of test leads, but only need a few power supplies?  But then you'd only need to buy a few leads to work with the few supplies.

Not trying to be combative .. I just really don't understand this.  Leads are not very expensive and it seems having a variety for specific needs might actually be a good idea.

I guess one reason might be that a company has a lot of unqualified personnel that might stupidly use a non-safety lead in a HV, HC, CAT IV situation.    Of course, if they were likely to make that error they should not be allowed to work in such an enviroment.

 

[nctnico]

Keep in mind Darwin is very keen on handing out awards as he has an infinite amount of those 

It looks like Martin is working in a lab where they have lots of high voltage / mains powered systems. I wouldn't want to have non-isolated banana leads available to anyone in such an environment. It is too easy for people to get tempted to use a non-isolated one where they really, really should use an isolated one.

[tautech]

Keep in mind Darwin is very keen on handing out awards as he has an infinite amount of those 

It looks like Martin is working in a lab where they have lots of high voltage / mains powered systems. I wouldn't want to have non-isolated banana leads available to anyone in such an environment. It is too easy for people to get tempted to use a non-isolated one where they really, really should use an isolated one.

And/or have retractable shrouded leads…..

[BillyO]

Keep in mind Darwin is very keen on handing out awards as he has an infinite amount of those 

...

It is too easy for people to get tempted to use a non-isolated one where they really, really should use an isolated one.

Perhaps you are right but maybe if the people would carelessly use leads with bare metal showing in HV situations it may be advantageous in the long run to allow them to win their award. 

[Antonio90]

Keep in mind Darwin is very keen on handing out awards as he has an infinite amount of those 

...

It is too easy for people to get tempted to use a non-isolated one where they really, really should use an isolated one.

Perhaps you are right but maybe if the people would carelessly use leads with bare metal showing in HV situations it may be advantageous in the long run to allow them to win their award. 

It is a matter of probability I guess. The most reasonable person can make a blunder or do something stupid.
They already have a setup of test leads that work and have been chosen according to regulations, internal policies and test setups. I really don't see the problem, taking into account that there are other options in the market with specs just as good as these.

[mon]

Lurked for a long while but this PSU has got me excited enough to make an account.

I feel like this is going to be a very popular mid-range supply, even with the price looking almost double that of the SPD3303X. I'm in the market for a new lab supply and it seems like it solves many of the problems that others have

• Normal number input (unlike the totally lacking SPD3303X, and the insane circular input of the rigols)
• Actual programmable voltage/current for the lower voltage inputs (no fixed outputs as the SPD3303X)
• Short form factor for the cheapest model (unlike the rigols)
• Fully isolated (Rigol 900 series fixed that, but the 800 series is still popular)
• 1mV/1mA as standard (you could argue the unlock hacks make this unimportant)
• hopefully doesn't have the power-on spikes and hot regulators, seems both Rigol and Siglent fixed that in the previous generation

And personally, I do like the black case. I won't comment on the protected bananas, I don't use them much...

The only other real competitor in this price range is the GPP-4323, but in Australia they're pricey at A$1300, and I hate the 4/1/2/3 port numbering.

User manual (in chinese) has the dimensions.
220x144.97mm on the front panel, 335mm deep for the SPD4323X and 395mm deep for the higher spec models.

It'll be an added bonus if the release of this drops the price of the 3000 series.

[tautech]

Welcome to the forum.

The top model SPD4306X is listed as ￥7,880 which is roughly 1100 USD so getting up there however western pricing has never converted well. We'll just have to wait and see.
I've asked questions about these PSU's but not got much info.....yet. 

[mon]

The top model SPD4306X is listed as ￥7,880 which is roughly 1100 USD so getting up there however western pricing has never converted well. We'll just have to wait and see.
I've asked questions about these PSU's but not got much info.....yet. 

Yes, the top model is definitely a big jump in price - I'm looking solely at the lowest tier which seems a lot more bang for buck.

Fingers crossed we get a full release of this and the new HD scopes after Chinese New Year.

[tautech]

Fingers crossed we get a full release of this and the new HD scopes after Chinese New Year.

Sadly no, only the 3 new ranges of HD scopes will come available in the next few weeks.
I have asked for a 2024 release program which they were preparing and maybe that won't be finalised for a few weeks. 

[mon]

I have asked for a 2024 release program which they were preparing and maybe that won't be finalised for a few weeks. 

It's been a handful of weeks - any news on a release date?

I'm already starting to line up projects to utilise the remote programming - not like another PSU can't do the trick (GW-4323 calls strongly), but I'm still enamoured with this new one, and the dumb Tenma from work doesn't cut it.

[MathWizard]

Will the older models get any cheaper ?

[seajayshore]

Just chiming-in to say these new power supplies do look very nice on paper. Especially the SPD4306X (400W) one in my case...

I wonder how loud it will be though... My SPD3303X is a little noisy IMO (but I don't have many other references).

[tautech]

Just chiming-in to say these new power supplies do look very nice on paper. Especially the SPD4306X (400W) one in my case...

Not long to wait, they should be available in July.

I wonder how loud it will be though... My SPD3303X is a little noisy IMO (but I don't have many other references).

These are almost silent at low loads, are you pushing yours ?

The 4000 series seems to share the same size enclosure and fan however capable of higher output capability one would expect greater fan cooling to manage the top model 400W specification.

[seajayshore]

Thanks for the update tautech - keeping watch 

As for my SPD3303X - my current project has it sat around 45-55W consistently (19V if that makes a difference). So like 20-25% of full load?
It's not annoyingly noisy I should add - and is definitely silent at much lower power - but yeah it's sat right next to me so I notice. Very happy with it all the same!

[AddisonAve1938]

Does anyone have an idea or the inside scoop of as to when these will hit the North American market?

[BillyO]

Does anyone have an idea or the inside scope of as to when these will hit the North American market?

I'm guessing mid-summer, however you could put in a query to siglentna.com.

[tautech]

Does anyone have an idea or the inside scoop of as to when these will hit the North American market?

Haven't got an actual release date yet but these are soon be announced to distributors so it would seem not long to wait now.
Got our name on one......

[tautech]

Some dealer resources recently arrived....
Not long to wait now.

[atroz]

Prices are up on the NA site although this page doesn't seem to show up from their front page yet.    https://siglentna.com/products/dc-power-supply/spd4000x-series/

SPD4323x is $680, SPD4121 is $780 and SPD4306X is $950.

[tautech]

Prices are up on the NA site although this page doesn't seem to show up from their front page yet.    https://siglentna.com/products/dc-power-supply/spd4000x-series/

SPD4323x is $680, SPD4121 is $780 and SPD4306X is $950.

Welcome to the forum.

Pricing is correct and official release is just a few days away.

[thm_w]

SPD4121X would have been great but not sure I understand the choice of a 12V maximum output (12V 10A x2, 15V 1.5A x2).
Usually for automotive/battery simulation you'd want around 13 or 14V.
Even for testing a 12V product, you'd sometimes want to try +/-10%.

This is why ~6.3V is somewhat standard (for use with 5V designs).

[exe]

This is why ~6.3V is somewhat standard (for use with 5V designs).

Ha-ha, I thought it's for vacuum tubes.

[KungFuJosh]

SPD4121X would have been great but not sure I understand the choice of a 12V maximum output (12V 10A x2, 15V 1.5A x2).

I don't know why they chose those specific specs, but each of the 3 models appears to be geared towards different V/A requirements. The SPD4323X would be the only version I would consider, and that has nothing to do with it being the cheapest...which doesn't hurt either.

ETA: Okay, price did matter. I just looked again at the SPD4306X, and those specs would work too, but not for the price.

[KungFuJosh]

Hmmm, this is interesting...

SPD4306X:
Weight   26.46 lbs
Dimensions   8.7 × 14.17 × 5.24 in

SPD4121X:
Weight   26.46 lbs
Dimensions   8.7 × 14.17 × 5.24 in

SPD4323X:
Weight   17.64 lbs
Dimensions   8.7 × 11.8 × 5.24 in

Seems like 2 of those might be the same hardware. I wonder what that might inspire. 🥸

[thm_w]

This is why ~6.3V is somewhat standard (for use with 5V designs).

Ha-ha, I thought it's for vacuum tubes.

For me if designing a lab PSU for use with valves (or 6V batteries) you'd probably choose ~8V.
You can look around at whats commonly available for lab PSUs: 60V, 50V, 30V, 27V, 15V, 6V, etc. Which makes sense for use on 48V, 24V, 12V, and 5V systems. 10-20% headroom.

12V - 10% gives you 10-11V, which no one uses as a standard voltage.

Hmmm, this is interesting...

SPD4306X: Weight   26.46 lbs - 15V 1.5A, 1A, 30V 6A x2
SPD4121X: Weight   26.46 lbs - 15V 1.5A x2, 12V 10A x2
SPD4323X: Weight   17.64 lbs - 6V 3.2A x2, 32V 3.2A x2

Seems like 2 of those might be the same hardware. I wonder what that might inspire. 🥸

I added the voltage specs above. Its a completely different transformer winding I would think.

[KungFuJosh]

Its a completely different transformer winding I would think.

That's certainly one possibility, but it's not the only possibility. Let's speculate! 😉

[tautech]

Released today June 28 2024.

https://int.siglent.com/products-overview/spd4000x/
https://siglentna.com/power-supplies/spd4000x-series-programmable-linear-dc-power-supply/
https://www.siglenteu.com/power-supplies/spd4000x-series-programmable-linear-dc-power-supply/

Datasheet attached.

[hpw]

Is there any SPS4000X_Service_manual seen/given yet? As the SPS5000X_Service_manual even exists already.

While the Ch1/Ch4 meter alters IMHO a bit to much as cold to warm up .. and how user calibration values alters the meters.

Hp

[tautech]

Is there any SPS4000X_Service_manual seen/given yet?

Not yet.

As the SPS5000X_Service_manual even exists already.

It's been released for 3 years.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sps5000x-psus-coming/

While the Ch1/Ch4 meter alters IMHO a bit to much as cold to warm up .. and how user calibration values alters the meters.

Which product ?

[Kawakneurder]

Looks like quite an interesting supply, the 4323X and 4306X especially.
Noise and load regulation are exceptional for the high current output (compared to similarly priced PSUs).

I am wondering about transient behavior (ex. time to switch from CV to CC mode, and residual energy in the output if it suddenly switches to CC mode).
@Tautech Do you have any idea how large the output capacitance is? Or do we have to wait for a teardown from Dave

[pdenisowski]

hm, keypad and 1 rotary encoder... So you want to adjust the output voltage on CH1. You turn the encoder and ooops, magic smoke. You just adjusted CH2.

Many lab power supplies have the ability to set overvoltage and overcurrent thresholds on a per channel basis - if you try to exceed the limit, the channel is disabled.  This has kept me from blowing up all kinds of things over the years

[pdenisowski]

Perhaps you are right but maybe if the people would carelessly use leads with bare metal showing in HV situations it may be advantageous in the long run to allow them to win their award. 

Does this count? It's only 40 amps at 20 volts ...

(Please don't try this at home)

[jjoonathan]

HC is a lot of fun, you get to throw sparks, melt things, and it isn't trying to jump through the air to kill you. Just don't forget your safety rag and fire extinguisher!

https://youtu.be/uXEPy6Za6cI?t=218

(Since it has been a decade since photonicinduction's heyday, I should probably explain the bit: the fire extinguisher was a spray bottle with water for the many times he caught the carpet on fire.)

[hpw]

I am wondering about transient behavior (ex. time to switch from CV to CC mode, and residual energy in the output if it suddenly switches to CC mode).
@Tautech Do you have any idea how large the output capacitance is? Or do we have to wait for a teardown from Dave

To change from any modes, the related output's have to be switched OFF & On again .... the given cable is rated as 3A with twisting "bunch plug". Those twisting "Bunch Plug" are a culprit of no contacts/loosing contacts.

In the custom calibration mode as for first use, all channel 's values V & I, needs to be carefully set !! Otherwise 

[mon]

AppVision now has listings up for AUD pricing:
SPD4323X $1,122.00
SPD4121X $1,287.00
SPD4306X $1,595.00

Pretty comparable to the US pricing.

Now I need to calm my itchy trigger finger and wait for Dave to take one apart... Would hate there to be a repeat of the SPD3000x's early unit issues.

[hpw]

Now I need to calm my itchy trigger finger and wait for Dave to take one apart... Would hate there to be a repeat of the SPD3000x's early unit issues.

To note:
- if you power C2 or C3 as 10V and switch on without any load, the current setting should have any value > 0.000A, otherwise no output voltage seen... setting like 0.010A shows than 10V at the meters otherwise nada.

- nice would be a simple factory copy to the user calibration table, so simple to calibrate and reset user calibration to valid state.

IMHO, to test the gear really, any dynamic test (comprehensive test) would be required using a good electronic load gear.

[tautech]

Now I need to calm my itchy trigger finger and wait for Dave to take one apart... Would hate there to be a repeat of the SPD3000x's early unit issues.

To note:
- if you power C2 or C3 as 10V and switch on without any load, the current setting should have any value > 0.000A, otherwise no output voltage seen...

Normal.

As this can bluff some ppl we always dispatch with 1V 1A settings on all channels.

[slavoy]

No info about the measurements refresh rate in the sheets   

[tautech]

No info about the measurements refresh rate in the sheets   

List time accuracy < 50 ms might be related. 

[pdenisowski]

IMHO, to test the gear really, any dynamic test (comprehensive test) would be required using a good electronic load gear.

Yes, almost all "proper" power supply testing should be done using a high-quality electronic load.

[2N3055]

No info about the measurements refresh rate in the sheets   

Could you point me to any modern PSU by likes of Keysight and R&S that specifies that parameter?
I checked 5-6 of them and not a mention...

[pdenisowski]

No info about the measurements refresh rate in the sheets   

Could you point me to any modern PSU by likes of Keysight and R&S that specifies that parameter?
I checked 5-6 of them and not a mention...

Could I ask what you mean by "measurement refresh rate"?  If it's how fast readback data can be logged, that definitely is in our spec sheet. We also specify the sampling time used for statistical measurements.

https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/NGU_dat_en_3608-6802-32_v0201.pdf

I also did an entire "technology" video explaining power supply readback and logging



and one specifically on how this is done on our NGM power supply (normal and "fast" logging)

[2N3055]

With do all respect, NGU is NOT a standard lab PSU, but an fancy/expensive SMU.
It is a source/measure unit and measuring is part of primary function of the instrument.

I checked for several Keysight and R&S standard PSU units and there is not even a single mention of how fast internal V/A meters sample values..
Or how fast is request, measure, reply cycle time for SCPI readout, on various interfaces.

[pdenisowski]

With do all respect, NGU is NOT a standard lab PSU, but an fancy/expensive SMU.

Point well taken - I just happened to have the NGU datasheet open because I was answering a question about it in another thread.  That was careless of me and I apologize for not choosing a comparable supply

I'm assuming "measurement refresh rate" refers to how fast readback data values can be logged -- there is a human-perception limit with regards to how fast they can be viewed on a power supply display.  If this definition is correct (and it may not be), then "measurement refresh rate" would have to refer to supplies that can log readback values -- I'm not sure that a "readback display update rate" value would be helpful or relevant.

It appears that the new Siglent power supply does not support logging, so I'm not surprised that no value for "measurement refresh rate" was given.  (And that's not a slam on Siglent - our comparable HMP4000 series supply also does not support logging).

Many R&S basic / entry level power supplies do however support logging, and when they do, this is specified.  It's not just the "fancy/expensive" ones

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/products/test-and-measurement/dc-power-supplies/rs-ngc100-power-supply-series_334248.html

Again, my apologies for not using a better example in my original post.  Thanks for keeping me honest!

[pdenisowski]

I checked for several Keysight and R&S standard PSU units and there is not even a single mention of how fast internal V/A meters sample values..

Understood, but unless these values are logged and/or used for statistics measurements (capture a very fast spike so that Vmax reflects this), it might be a moot point. But it's a good question and I will ask our developers about this.

Or how fast is request, measure, reply cycle time for SCPI readout, on various interfaces.

I don't know any manufacturer who formally specs this for any instrument.  SCPI response time varies considerably based on a lot of things, so developing a methodology to compare SCPI response time specs would be very difficult.

[nctnico]

Agilent / Keysight has SCPI response times for most of their equipment aimed for use in automated testing rigs. For example their 34461 DMMs have a throughput specification for the various interfaces. Same for the 33500 waveform generator and N3300 DC load series.

[slavoy]

I was just referring to the screen refresh rate, not sampling or logging. Just that simple useful thing..
BTW Does spending $1100 on a power supply ensure the encoder works well? 

[2N3055]

I was just referring to the screen refresh rate, not sampling or logging. Just that simple useful thing..
BTW Does spending $1500 on a power supply ensure the encoder works well? 

Are you sure you are not confused about some things? Are you in the right topic? What PSU are you talking about?

[tszaboo]

Perhaps you are right but maybe if the people would carelessly use leads with bare metal showing in HV situations it may be advantageous in the long run to allow them to win their award. 

Does this count? It's only 40 amps at 20 volts ...

(Please don't try this at home)

Cool. Let me know when you guys made a 4000A capable, 0.003% accurate 2 and a half-ish quadrant power supply that will measure every 100us.

[2N3055]

Perhaps you are right but maybe if the people would carelessly use leads with bare metal showing in HV situations it may be advantageous in the long run to allow them to win their award. 

Does this count? It's only 40 amps at 20 volts ...

(Please don't try this at home)

Cool. Let me know when you guys made a 4000A capable, 0.003% accurate 2 and a half-ish quadrant power supply that will measure every 100us.

 

[pdenisowski]

Cool. Let me know when you guys made a 4000A capable, 0.003% accurate 2 and a half-ish quadrant power supply that will measure every 100us.

 

[pdenisowski]

I was just referring to the screen refresh rate, not sampling or logging. Just that simple useful thing..

Okay, that makes sense   We definitely don't spec that.  Has that been an issue for you?  The reason I'm asking is even my cheapest "hobby" power supply display seems to update more or less instantaneously from a human point of view.

[Martin72]

Here again something on the actual topic:




https://www.batronix.com/shop/siglent/SPD4000X.html

The prices seem reasonable, but visually it's just not mine.

[pdenisowski]

Agilent / Keysight has SCPI response times for most of their equipment aimed for use in automated testing rigs. For example their 34461 DMMs have a throughput specification for the various interfaces. Same for the 33500 waveform generator and N3300 DC load series.

It would help if they would use the word "SCPI" when describing this in their data sheets   The stats I could find seemed to reference primarily GPIB*, and for the 34461 they (vaguely) indicate that "VXI-11 connections may be slower"   But I agree that for automation / production this would be very useful information.

https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/7018-03846/data-sheets/5991-1983.pdf
https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/7018-05928/data-sheets/5992-2572.pdf
https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/7018-06712/data-sheets/5980-0232.pdf

*Nothing against GPIB (I just did a video on it, as a matter of fact), but delays in GPIB are much more "deterministic" than VX11/LAN, at least in my experience.

[pdenisowski]

Here again something on the actual topic:

  From the video it looks like the readback update rate is somewhere on the order of 1 Hz

[KungFuJosh]

The prices seem reasonable, but visually it's just not mine.

It's kind of weird to see the channel numbers in order. 😉

[TomKatt]

Here again something on the actual topic:

https://www.batronix.com/shop/siglent/SPD4000X.html

The prices seem reasonable, but visually it's just not mine.

That's some over-the-top slick marketing production work for a power supply

Personally, I kinda like the new dark mode look.  But the neon color channel buttons do stick out on that dark grey face 

[Martin72]

It's kind of weird to see the channel numbers in order. 😉

To me, the thing looks like a toy, why can't it be designed in a more objective and functional way...

[thm_w]

I don't get how it looks like a toy, its literally the same style as a keysight with a few more rounded edges. Colors are super practical.

Here again something on the actual topic:

  From the video it looks like the readback update rate is somewhere on the order of 1 Hz

Yeah 1 or 2Hz, not impressive considering the cheap processing power we have these days. Though to be fair most PSUs are similar.
Its almost never a hardware limitation either, just software people not optimizing or not understanding display DMA.

[Martin72]

I don't get how it looks like a toy, its literally the same style as a keysight

I didn't say that Keysight looks more “professional” to me.
I'm older, I prefer a sober design.

[KungFuJosh]

I bet somebody likes the look of a classic Agilent 6114A. 😉

[tautech]

To me, the thing looks like a toy, why can't it be designed in a more objective and functional way...

Like how ? ? 

[jjoonathan]

It's missing the Keysight racecar stripe.

I am waiting for one with flame decals on the side.

[slavoy]

Okay, that makes sense   We definitely don't spec that.  Has that been an issue for you?

If its slower than 3Hz, for me, yes. I consider 5Hz to be optimal.

I don't get how it looks like a toy, its literally the same style as a keysight with a few more rounded edges. Colors are super practical.

IMHO, there's nothing wrong with the colors themselves. To me, it doesn't look like a toy. More like it's recycled, old from the start or they ran out of dye. Take a good look: It's not black; it's worn out black-yellow-brownish. Why not going for full black instead 

[tszaboo]

Cool. Let me know when you guys made a 4000A capable, 0.003% accurate 2 and a half-ish quadrant power supply that will measure every 100us.

 

I know it sounds silly, but all the specification for that project was customer driven.
German EV standards defined that battery packs ESR had to be measured with 10C discharge, so if you have a 300Ah battery pack, you needed to discharge it with 3000A. We had this 80 channel battery tester, 50A per channel, and you could place all the channels in parallels. The rest of the specifications, they also had very good reasons to measure coulombic efficiency, or to be able to discharge a battery to 0V.
Disclaimer, I only did the analogue boards for the project.
And I thought we are doing the the one-uppmanship.

[mawyatt]

The color can be misleading as it's rendered by the camera and image post processing, then on your monitor. If your monitor is not one of the expensive "Calibrated" types (or Calibrated with a proper device), then it's difficult to determine the actual precise color.

Edit: Just took a look at our SDS800X HD, it's the "Dark" color and if the SDP is the same, then it does have a brownish tint to our eyes, whereas the Keysight "Dark" has a charcoal with a slight blueish tint.

Personally think this new PS looks fine, also like that Siglent has "listened" to users and placed the Terminals at standard spacing (keeping with color coding the ends like previous models), and included a numeric keypad, all per user/complainer inputs

One will soon find out that without color coded terminal ends it's very easy to mis-plug the connections when the PS is straight on (~level with the eye). Results can be disaster in the waiting, don't ask how we know!! Our GPP-4323 has this problem and we used Acrylic Paint to color the terminal ends, after an "Experience"!!

Also Siglent has included Remote Sensing to the main channels, this is a welcome addition as one can create a custom cable that senses at the cable ends. This allows one to "Cheat" and use a smaller core cable and still deliver the proper voltage to the DUT without worry for cable drop.

Best,

[2N3055]

, after an "Experience"!!

 

[mawyatt]

, after an "Experience"!!

 

Don't laugh, that "Episode" cost a few $ and some choice words directed at the GPP 

Then the finger pointed back at ourselves as the true culprit 

Best,

[Furna]

I am a little bit disappointed by the cables' quality ...



Those plastic cover over the cocodrile will squish all around the places ... I would have preferred something like



I didn't powered it on yet ... have to finish to cable the LAN (damn I am out of ports on the switch after this boy!)

[dirtcooker]

The SPD4323X has most of the features I am looking for except one. It seems to be missing a dual tracking feature. If you put channels 2 and 3 in series, the manual states
"In the series mode, the voltage value is twice compared with that of single channel. CH2/3 are linked internally into one channel which is controlled by CH2, and CH2 reads the parallel (sic) voltage and current values.
...
3.Connect the load to the terminals on the front panel: CH2+ & CH3-. "
So what if your using this as a +- supply, and you want to know the +- currents, and possibly set different values. Am I missing something? Does anyone have one of theses to check?

[tautech]

The SPD4323X has most of the features I am looking for except one. It seems to be missing a dual tracking feature. If you put channels 2 and 3 in series, the manual states
"In the series mode, the voltage value is twice compared with that of single channel. CH2/3 are linked internally into one channel which is controlled by CH2, and CH2 reads the parallel (sic) voltage and current values.
...
3.Connect the load to the terminals on the front panel: CH2+ & CH3-. "
So what if your using this as a +- supply, and you want to know the +- currents, and possibly set different values. Am I missing something? Does anyone have one of theses to check?

SPD3303X in Series mode works as a + dual tracking PSU and I don't see why SPD4000X won't too.
Just take your 0V from one of the center terminals.

ie, the Neg of Ch2/Pos Ch3 becomes the 0V rail and Ch2 Pos is + supply, Ch3 - is the negative supply.
You can also setup something similar with an external link in independant output mode and limit the current on each rail.

I'll have some SPD4000X in the next few weeks to confirm.

[dirtcooker]

"SPD3303X in Series mode works as a + dual tracking PSU and I don't see why SPD4000X won't too."
makes sense that it would. But I am wondering if the current/voltage readback is disabled for CH3 when in series mode. The manual states: “4W sense mode is not supported in series or parallel mode.” I wonder why not.
I am comparing this model to the Instek GPP-4323 and the Keysight E36313A (which of course is 3x the price of this) Reportedly with the instek: “one of the main channels reads 3.3mA, the other 2.2mA even if nothing is connected to the output” (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gpp-4323-422471/msg5426795/#msg5426795)
That would be unacceptable. I'm working on a battery powered device so I want the meter readings to be accurate.

[tautech]

"SPD3303X in Series mode works as a + dual tracking PSU and I don't see why SPD4000X won't too."
makes sense that it would.
But I am wondering if the current/voltage readback is disabled for CH3 when in series mode.

It's not in the 3000X models, Ch1 is the master control but they track together.
We need somebody with one to perform some tests for you.....
Have you tried your local guys ?
Kemp Instruments
 972-437-9100
 www.kempinstruments.com
 dallas@kempinstruments.com

Or maybe call NA HQ and have a chat to a tech there:
Siglent Technologies NA, Inc.
6557 Cochran Rd Solon, Ohio 44139
Tel: 440-398-5800
Toll Free:877-515-5551

The manual states: “4W sense mode is not supported in series or parallel mode.” I wonder why not.

Good find and makes sense.
How would it be configured into the existing rear Sense inputs ?

[Furna]

We need somebody with one to perform some tests for you.....

I have a SPD4121X ... let me know exactly what test you would like to be performed and I will try ...

I'll have some SPD4000X in the next few weeks to confirm.

Will be good to make some confrontation ... what I am seeing on CH1 and CH4 is "unexpected" and before posting I would like to have some confirmation.

[dirtcooker]

I have a SPD4121X ... let me know exactly what test you would like to be performed and I will try ...
[/quote]

With Ch2 and CH3 in series mode and set to, say, 5v each, place a 100 ohm resistor across CH2 and a 50 ohm resistor across CH3. the current in CH2 should read 50ma and in CH3 should be 100ma. Now set the current limit to 50ma. what is the voltage across ch2 and across ch3? the Voltages should track.

[dirtcooker]

"SPD3303X in Series mode works as a + dual tracking PSU and I don't see why SPD4000X won't too."
makes sense that it would.
But I am wondering if the current/voltage readback is disabled for CH3 when in series mode.

It's not in the 3000X models, Ch1 is the master control but they track together.
We need somebody with one to perform some tests for you.....
Have you tried your local guys ?
Kemp Instruments
 972-437-9100
 www.kempinstruments.com
 dallas@kempinstruments.com

Or maybe call NA HQ and have a chat to a tech there:
Siglent Technologies NA, Inc.
6557 Cochran Rd Solon, Ohio 44139
Tel: 440-398-5800
Toll Free:877-515-5551

The manual states: “4W sense mode is not supported in series or parallel mode.” I wonder why not.

Good find and makes sense.
How would it be configured into the existing rear Sense inputs ?

CH2 and 3 sense inputs would be connected across the loads as usual. Why wouldn't 4W sense be available in a dual tracking power supply? CH2 and 3 are independent and fully floating, and 4W sense would complete the feedback loop to compensate for cable loss.

[tautech]

We need somebody with one to perform some tests for you.....

I have a SPD4121X ... let me know exactly what test you would like to be performed and I will try ...

Engage Series mode (for Ch2&3)
Adjust any parameter and observe Set values for these 2 channels, they should track.

Confirm with DMM measurements between Ch2 Pos, Ch2 Neg/Ch3 Pos (0V) and Ch3 Neg provides a dual polarity tracking supply.

Exit Series mode
Fit link between Ch2 Neg/Ch3 Pos and confirm link as 0V and each channel can be adjusted independently for a non-equal + supply with V and A independently adjustable.
TIA

[tautech]

"SPD3303X in Series mode works as a + dual tracking PSU and I don't see why SPD4000X won't too."
makes sense that it would.
But I am wondering if the current/voltage readback is disabled for CH3 when in series mode.

It's not in the 3000X models, Ch1 is the master control but they track together.
We need somebody with one to perform some tests for you.....
Have you tried your local guys ?
Kemp Instruments
 972-437-9100
 www.kempinstruments.com
 dallas@kempinstruments.com

Or maybe call NA HQ and have a chat to a tech there:
Siglent Technologies NA, Inc.
6557 Cochran Rd Solon, Ohio 44139
Tel: 440-398-5800
Toll Free:877-515-5551

The manual states: “4W sense mode is not supported in series or parallel mode.” I wonder why not.

Good find and makes sense.
How would it be configured into the existing rear Sense inputs ?

CH2 and 3 sense inputs would be connected across the loads as usual. Why wouldn't 4W sense be available in a dual tracking power supply? CH2 and 3 are independent and fully floating, and 4W sense would complete the feedback loop to compensate for cable loss.

Not when in Series mode.

[dirtcooker]

Not when in Series mode.

yes, and that's why I think it does not have a dual tracking mode. series mode is simply intended to double the voltage capability, as the manual says "CH2/3 are linked internally into one channel which is controlled by CH2". The keysight has 4 modes: auto series, auto parallel, independent, and tracking. I will check with my local NA distributor, good idea. I hope I'm wrong. I really like Siglent gear and have bought a lot of it. Great engineering, build quality and value for money.

[tautech]

Not when in Series mode.

yes, and that's why I think it does not have a dual tracking mode. series mode is simply intended to double the voltage capability, as the manual says "CH2/3 are linked internally into one channel which is controlled by CH2".

While not specifically called a Dual tracking mode, while in Series mode and the center point tapped off as 0V, they behave as a dual tracking PSU.

I wondered about this a while back and dragged out a SPD3303X to check.....

[dirtcooker]

Not when in Series mode.

yes, and that's why I think it does not have a dual tracking mode. series mode is simply intended to double the voltage capability, as the manual says "CH2/3 are linked internally into one channel which is controlled by CH2".

While not specifically called a Dual tracking mode, while in Series mode and the center point tapped off as 0V, they behave as a dual tracking PSU.

I wondered about this a while back and dragged out a SPD3303X to check.....

The difference is that now there are relays inside that connect the outputs in series or parallel, which is a nice feature. The keysight does this too and that is why it has 4 distinct modes.

[tautech]

Not when in Series mode.

yes, and that's why I think it does not have a dual tracking mode. series mode is simply intended to double the voltage capability, as the manual says "CH2/3 are linked internally into one channel which is controlled by CH2".

While not specifically called a Dual tracking mode, while in Series mode and the center point tapped off as 0V, they behave as a dual tracking PSU.

I wondered about this a while back and dragged out a SPD3303X to check.....

The difference is that now there are relays inside that connect the outputs in series or parallel, which is a nice feature.

FYI
All multichannel SPD models use internal relays for Series and Parallel modes.

[Furna]

Unfortunately I have no time to write down here the results, but I wanted to share asap and hopefully images below are self explanayory.
Will be able to better comment later after work.

With Ch2 and CH3 in series mode and set to, say, 5v each, place a 100 ohm resistor across CH2 and a 50 ohm resistor across CH3. the current in CH2 should read 50ma and in CH3 should be 100ma. Now set the current limit to 50ma. what is the voltage across ch2 and across ch3? the Voltages should track.

IMG_20240905_073129 - Copy.png => All channels off, V and A set to casual values on CH2 and CH3
IMG_20240905_073140 - Copy.png => CH2 and CH3 set to Series, set to 10V and 1.050A; CH3 is not adjustable at all
IMG_20240905_073203 - Copy.png => 100Ω resistor on CH2 and 50Ω on CH3. CH2 shows total volatge and correct A; CH3 shows channel voltage and correct A. It is not possible to set any value on CH3
IMG_20240905_073409 - Copy.png => lowering current to 0.050A on CH2 produces no effect on either channel as expected
IMG_20240905_074357 - Copy.png => lowering current to 0.045A on CH2 produces lower voltage on CH2 (4.5V) but no change on CH3; CH2 continues to show total voltage
Voltages have been checked with external DMM and their values as shown in the images/reported by me are correct.

dirtcooker is right

[dirtcooker]

Unfortunately I have no time to write down here the results, but I wanted to share asap and hopefully images below are self explanayory.
Will be able to better comment later after work.

With Ch2 and CH3 in series mode and set to, say, 5v each, place a 100 ohm resistor across CH2 and a 50 ohm resistor across CH3. the current in CH2 should read 50ma and in CH3 should be 100ma. Now set the current limit to 50ma. what is the voltage across ch2 and across ch3? the Voltages should track.

IMG_20240905_073129 - Copy.png => All channels off, V and A set to casual values on CH2 and CH3
IMG_20240905_073140 - Copy.png => CH2 and CH3 set to Series, set to 10V and 1.050A; CH3 is not adjustable at all
IMG_20240905_073203 - Copy.png => 100Ω resistor on CH2 and 50Ω on CH3. CH2 shows total volatge and correct A; CH3 shows channel voltage and correct A. It is not possible to set any value on CH3
IMG_20240905_073409 - Copy.png => lowering current to 0.050A on CH2 produces no effect on either channel as expected
IMG_20240905_074357 - Copy.png => lowering current to 0.045A on CH2 produces lower voltage on CH2 (4.5V) but no change on CH3; CH2 continues to show total voltage
Voltages have been checked with external DMM and their values as shown in the images/reported by me are correct.

dirtcooker is right

Thank you Furna. It appears that series mode was intended only to extend the voltage range of the power supply. Siglent really needs to add a dual tracking mode. Possibly they could do it with a firmware change only. It seems a glaring omission to me. Also in your first pic with all outputs off, ch3 reads 1ma. So do I have to add an external multimeter if I want an accurate reading in the low ma ranges? I can do that already with any old plain vanilla power supply I have kicking around. What I'm looking for is a power supply that includes a precision multimeter. That is what Keysight has done and I think Siglent would have been wise to follow their lead.

[hpw]

Just to draw my suggestions again:

- come up with the service manual (after month still missing), to see how to calibrate using the customer mode 

- provide a simple menu as: Copy factory setup to customer mode as to get a nice valid setup to alter 

- colored cables related to current channel colors, otherwise as 4x pairs to follow the cables or even to label

- describe why to provide some current otherwise output shutdown as may the meters requires some small currents

- yes a tracking mode as RIGOL has is a must have 

[Furna]

First of all: never ever takes measurement early in the morning when you just wake up, still didn't drink a coffee, and in a rush to go to work ...

IMG_20240905_074357 - Copy.png => lowering current to 0.045A on CH2 produces lower voltage on CH2 (4.5V) but no change on CH3; CH2 continues to show total voltage

Current was lowered to 0.040A as the image clearly shows.


Let's start with something simple: series mode with dummy load across CH2+ and CH3- ... volatges have been verified with external multimeter (BM869s calibrated in March 2024) at PSU outputs

IMG_20240907_114815.png - the setup; 100Ω resistor measuring 100.34Ω (yes wire wound resistor; this is what I have at the moment for 100Ω).
IMG_20240907_115035.png - series mode 10V and 1.5A set; as expected 0.1A, 10V total with 5V on each channel. I have no idea why CH3 shows 0.101A; also I am not able to reproduce this today.
IMG_20240907_115452.png - voltage reduced to 9V; as expected 0.090A, 9V total and each channel at 4.5V. Still CH3 shows 0.001A more.
IMG_20240907_115810.png - voltage back to 10V, let's start to reduce current to 0.090A to go to CC mode. To get desired current, voltage is reduced only on CH2 but still higher than expected even considering the not exact value of the resisotr; CH3 shows his own correct voltage while CH2 shows the total voltage.
IMG_20240907_120216.png - lowered current to 0.050A ... behaviour confirmed. CH2 almost at 0V with same kind of error as previous image.
IMG_20240907_120335.png - lowered cuurent at 0.040A ... CH2 goes to -0.6V but that is not enough; to have 0.040A we should have CH2 at -1V but pag15 of the manual "The high current channel support remote voltage compensation sense function. The
maximum compensation voltage is 0.6V". Displayed values for CH2 are completely wrong now.
IMG_20240907_120950.png - lowered cuurent at 0.010A ... CH2 goes to -0.7V (contradcting the manual) but it should be -4.0V. Values shown on CH2 are completely wrong. Values shown on CH3 are correct.

I understand this is a corner situation ... every intelligent person would use the independent mode for such low V and A vlaues but definitely the serial mode could be improved in the firmware.

Expecting your comments folks.

[dirtcooker]

Let's start with something simple: series mode with dummy load across CH2+ and CH3- ... volatges have been verified with external multimeter (BM869s calibrated in March 2024) at PSU outputs

IMG_20240907_120335.png - lowered cuurent at 0.040A ... CH2 goes to -0.6V but that is not enough; to have 0.040A we should have CH2 at -1V but pag15 of the manual "The high current channel support remote voltage compensation sense function. The
maximum compensation voltage is 0.6V". Displayed values for CH2 are completely wrong now.
IMG_20240907_120950.png - lowered cuurent at 0.010A ... CH2 goes to -0.7V (contradcting the manual) but it should be -4.0V. Values shown on CH2 are completely wrong. Values shown on CH3 are correct.

It all falls apart at the 40ma setting, when I would expect ch2 to read 4v (total) and ch3 to read 2v. Is 4W sense turned on, or is it greyed out since the manual says it is not supported in series mode? You have found a bug in the series mode with this simple test. Maybe Siglent could supply a schematic so we can help debug their power supply.

[Furna]

It all falls apart at the 40ma setting, when I would expect ch2 to read 4v (total) and ch3 to read 2v.

It seems the strategy (that I do not understand) is to change/lower voltage on CH2 only ... to the point where the firmware authors choose to apply a negative voltage to CH2 instead of lowering CH3 too.

Is 4W sense turned on, or is it greyed out since the manual says it is not supported in series mode?

If 4w is on, you cannot enable parallel/series; if parallel/series is on, you cannot enable 4w.

You have found a bug in the series mode with this simple test. Maybe Siglent could supply a schematic so we can help debug their power supply.

I doubt Siglent will share the schematic ... I hope @tautech will have the chance to signal Siglent the bug(s) we will find.

[tautech]

It all falls apart at the 40ma setting, when I would expect ch2 to read 4v (total) and ch3 to read 2v.

It seems the strategy (that I do not understand) is to change/lower voltage on CH2 only ... to the point where the firmware authors choose to apply a negative voltage to CH2 instead of lowering CH3 too.

Is 4W sense turned on, or is it greyed out since the manual says it is not supported in series mode?

If 4w is on, you cannot enable parallel/series; if parallel/series is on, you cannot enable 4w.

You have found a bug in the series mode with this simple test. Maybe Siglent could supply a schematic so we can help debug their power supply.

I doubt Siglent will share the schematic ... I hope @tautech will have the chance to signal Siglent the bug(s) we will find.

When they arrive myself and Defpom whom is to get one will look carefully at how Series and Parallel modes work. Some weeks away.... 

[Furna]

I doubt Siglent will share the schematic ... I hope @tautech will have the chance to signal Siglent the bug(s) we will find.

When they arrive myself and Defpom whom is to get one will look carefully at how Series and Parallel modes work. Some weeks away.... 

I am sure you guys will have a far better structured approach at testing these PSU; anyway if you need some "work force" to perform a few tests, just let me know.

[mon]

I'm certainly interested what you think of the PSU so far outside of the issues with the channel linking.

[Furna]

I'm certainly interested what you think of the PSU so far outside of the issues with the channel linking.

What I think about the PSU in general ...
When I ordered it, I was conscious it was a bet; there are other issues I currently do not have intention to share yet since I want to leave tautech and Defpom the "exclusivity" of being the first to review the PSU (for sure they are more experienced tah me both as technicians and as reviewers).

The build quality is very good and until now I found the precision pretty accurate and always in spec when measured with BM869s considering also the error margin of this one of wich I have calibration data.
I already mentioned the quality of the included cables; while I was really disapointed at the beginning, I am now getting somehow used but I also have and use a set of alternative cables.
Moreover, cheap for cheap Siglent could have included 4wire sense cables (indeed you need to provide yourself).

The user manual needs a fresh clean up from copy&paste and English mistakes, but it is easily understandable.

All in all I am confident Siglent will release new firmwares and fix the issues and my bet will be a succesfull one ...

BTW did anyone noticed the camera icon just next to Save/Recall button clearly visible in my images?
It is not present in the marketing material and in the user manual too ... but it is there on the real product ... should we expect a new firmaware where you can save the dispaly?

Its a completely different transformer winding I would think.

That's certainly one possibility, but it's not the only possibility. Let's speculate! 😉

See the attached image ...
I didn't take it apart but it might be that the transformer is shared between SPD4121X and SPD4306X

[Furna]

When they arrive myself and Defpom whom is to get one will look carefully at how Series and Parallel modes work. Some weeks away.... 

How many weeks? Any news? What model(s) are you going to receive?

[tautech]

When they arrive myself and Defpom whom is to get one will look carefully at how Series and Parallel modes work. Some weeks away.... 

How many weeks? Any news? What model(s) are you going to receive?

They're on the water so waiting impatiently.......
Top and bottom models are coming, not the middle one at this time.

[Furna]

They're on the water so waiting impatiently.......
Top and bottom models are coming, not the middle one at this time.

Are you also going to teardown them?
I have the middle one so we are covered ... if I get courious enough and have something to compare to, I could teardown mine.
I do not have a pro setup for photos/videos tough.

[tautech]

They're on the water so waiting impatiently.......
Top and bottom models are coming, not the middle one at this time.

Are you also going to teardown them?

Defpom will get one to have a good look at. 

[jayk]

Will be interested to hear about the web interface on these.  The GPP-4323 is great but has a crap web interface.  Hopefully Siglent did a better job with the SPD4000X.

[Furna]

Will be interested to hear about the web interface on these.  The GPP-4323 is great but has a crap web interface.  Hopefully Siglent did a better job with the SPD4000X.

An image is better than 1000 words?

[mawyatt]

Could you  do some of the tests discussed here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/power-supply-for-home-lab-do-i-really-need-a-rs/

Specifically with a Voltage and Current Limit of 20V and 10mA respectively using a Blue LED as load DUT. Record Turn On Characteristic of Voltage (or Current) at DUT.

Also do the above with Voltage Limit of 8V and 50Ω DUT.

The GPP-4323 seems to be the best of the bunch.

Thanks in advance if you have the time

Best,

[folays]

SPD4306X ; set to 0.020 A.
3 screenshoots : 5V / 10V / 20V.

Green led, vendor says Vdrop=2.2V 20mA.

The green leds didn't like that. 3 are dead, some are more resilient. They flash yellow at 20V, but some still continue to work.

Sorry it's only a scope measurement of Voltage at the led terminals.
3V per horizon div, 2ms per horizontal div.

At 20V, the SPD in CC=20mA settles at 3.2V.

I will insert a resistor in series to measure current.

[folays]

Here is fresh green led (not one I martirized before) at 3V / 5V / 10V / 20V.
The resistor is a really cheap one marketted as 100 Ohm but real BM869's measured resistance was ~ 90.00 Ohm.

For what is worth, wiring is : Vcc -> pushbutton -> Led -> Resistor -> Ground.
I didn't connected the SPD "sense" leads, but I had the BM869s measuring Vcc at the breadboard, got .00 decimals at each of the 4 voltage ranges.

Here are 4 traces at 50ms / div.

The yellow C1 trace is the SPD4306X Voltage.
C2 (not displayed) is the resistor Voltage drop.

F2 (math) is C1/90 ; so that's the current. At 30 mA / div.

At 20V, the current peaked at 169mA.

Bonus 5th picture at 20V and 10x more zoom (5ms / div). Beware the vertical division of Amperage has changed, it is now 50mA / div.
Peak start at 170mA, after 45ms it seems to be still at ~120 mA.

[mawyatt]

You want to be using the ON/OFF Enable Button on the Supply, not an external Push Button. The Push Button places the PS output capacitance fully charged to set voltage across the DUT. At higher set voltages like 10 and 20V this will damage/destroy the LED as too much energy gets dumped into the DUT LED.

Best

[folays]

Here using the button of the SPD.
I missmeasured the resistance (for calculating the current) it is 99 Ohm, also checked with Shannon's tweezers.

F2 = Vresistance / 0.099 Ohm (scope wouldn't let me graph F2 below 5mV/div at 3mV/div so I divided by 0.099 to graph in V/div).

F2 Rise slowly to 19+ V, it means 19mA, as set on CC supply (20mA).

I like the fact that we can see the current rising once we approach the Vdrop of the LED.

[tautech]

Here using the button of the SPD.
I missmeasured the resistance (for calculating the current) it is 99 Ohm, also checked with Shannon's tweezers.

F2 = Vresistance / 0.099 Ohm (scope wouldn't let me graph F2 below 5mV/div at 3mV/div so I divided by 0.099 to graph in V/div).

F2 Rise slowly to 19+ V, it means 19mA, as set on CC supply (20mA).

I like the fact that we can see the current rising once we approach the Vdrop of the LED.

Q
Why have you not set the scope to show A with the correct scaling ?
Hint, look in the channel menu. 

[folays]

Why have you not set the scope to show A [...]

The Math channel can't let me set the unit on it, Ohm's law doesn't exist, and if Math channel divides Volts by Resistance, then Scope law's which is above Ohm's law mandates that the result is still Volts

I could force Math channel to be in Amp, if I were to set the C2 (Vdrop at the resistance) to be Amps.

I very would like to be able to change the Math channel independently, or if the scope would let just enter a suffix string.
I've entered the Steinhart-hart equations in a math channel for the fun, and I had to display the temperature in V.

[...] with the correct scaling ?

The C2 channel was set a 1V/div.
F2 was set at F2=C2/99 (99 Ohm).
So I indeed had the target LED's 20mA, but displayed as 20mV, but if I changed the C2 unit from V->A, then I could have F2 change from mV->mA.

But I wanted the current (~20 mA, or 20mV badly displayed) to be graphed with the 7 full spans on division available in the positive range.
so 20m[A or V] divided by 7 = roughly 3 wheen rounded to ceil.

So I wanted to set F2 to 3 mV vertical div, but the scope wouldn't let me go below 5mV. Without any message, even if I had the "coarse" unchecked, when I entered something below 5milli, it raised it up to 5milli.

Attached is a picture when I set back F2=C2/99, then I can't set F2 vertical div to below 5mV. When I lower it, it ignores it and briefly writes a big 5mV in White in the bottom center of the screen.

So I changed F2 from F2=C2/99 to F2=C2/0.099 and set the vertical div of F2 from 3mV(impossible minimum 5mV) to 3V.

Ah and in the oddities, the Steinhart-hart equation is something along :

Code: [Select]

// let a, b, and c be three coefficients which to me, may as well have been determined by black magic
F3=ln(voltage)// natural log, not log10 // F4 and math channels have a string length limit, so I have to use a temporary channel to reduce size
F4=a + b*F3 + c*F3*F3*F3
The scope wouldn't allow have F3 be cube'd to the power of 3.
So It worked with the mathematically-equivalent of factorized :

Code: [Select]

F4=a + F3*(b + c*F3*F3)
And somehow it accepted it, like if we weren't anymore be ^3 a chan source.
I guess that it comes from limit in the math operations accepted by whatever chips calculate the maths (FPGA ?).
Probably the FPGA cannot do F3*F3*F3, probably it can do F3*F3*(F3+0). Or something along those lines.

I guess square/square root are often used in the electrical domains, cube/cube root less often, and I wanted to ^3 but it was for something probably rarely usefull on a scope.

[mawyatt]

Can't you just set the CH2 Units to Amps, the Probe to proper V/A? The DSO will then display in mA

100Ω is large for current measuring, as 100Ω * 20mA = 2V.  Try 1 or 10Ω for less voltage drop, your nice DSO should have plenty of low noise sensitive to handle this.

Best

[KungFuJosh]

Probably should put the 20M channel filter on too.

[folays]

C2 set to A, with 20M filter.
C2 measured Vdrop changed to ~ 1.53 Ohm.

Still at 5mA div on F2, cannot set it below to 3mA per div.

[Furna]

Could you  do some of the tests discussed here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/power-supply-for-home-lab-do-i-really-need-a-rs/

Specifically with a Voltage and Current Limit of 20V and 10mA respectively using a Blue LED as load DUT. Record Turn On Characteristic of Voltage (or Current) at DUT.

Also do the above with Voltage Limit of 8V and 50Ω DUT.

The GPP-4323 seems to be the best of the bunch.

Thanks in advance if you have the time

Best,

Hi,
this what I have been able to do so far.

Setup: SPD4121X
- 2*100Ω wire wound cement resistor in parallel => 50Ω (see IMG_20241006_125209.png)
- CH1 8V - 0.010A
- CH2 8V - 0.010A

Results:
- CH1 overshot to 3.48V => 0.0696Ω (see CH1-8V-10mA-50R-20msec.png)
- CH1 overshot to 3.48V => 0.0696A (see CH1-8V-10mA-50R-20msec.png)
- CH1 recover to to 0.50V in about 30msec (see CH1-8V-10mA-50R-50msec.png)
- CH2 overshot to 1.32V => 0.0264Ω (see CH2-8V-10mA-50R-20msec.png)
- CH2 overshot to 1.32V => 0.0264A (see CH2-8V-10mA-50R-20msec.png)
- CH2 recover to 0.50V in about 90msec (see CH2-8V-10mA-50R-50msec.png and CH2-8V-10mA-50R-100msec.png)

So the "issue" is present on SPD4000 series too, anyway with lower magnitude if I read correctly the other posts.
CH2 overshots less than half than CH1 but recovers much slower, anyway much faster than 12 sec I read in other posts.

Give me some time to better read the posts and see if I have a spare blue LED around.

Edit: I clearly made a copy and paste error mixing Ω and A ... sorry for misleading

[mawyatt]

Thanks Furna, interesting results!!

Think starting a new thread on Power Supply Turn ON and OFF characteristics might be in order to consolidate the various efforts of folks on this issue.

Best,

[Furna]

Setup: SPD4121X
- Generic Blue LED (see IMG_20241006_151727.png)
- CH1 12V - 0.010A
- CH2 12V - 0.010A

Results:
- CH1 overshot to 3.48V => PSU shows 2.840V 0.0.10A in long run (see CH1-12V-10mA-BlueLED-10msec.png and CH1-12V-10mA-BlueLED-50msec.png)
- CH2 no overshot => PSU shows 2.840V 0.0.10A in long run (CH2-12V-10mA-BlueLED-10msec.png and CH2-12V-10mA-BlueLED-50msec.png and CH2-12V-10mA-BlueLED-500msec.png)

Awaiting comments

PS SPD4121X CH2 max voltage is 12V
For this reason I choose to use 12V for all tests with Blue LED

[mawyatt]

Thanks Furna

Interesting how the two channels differ in details!!

Edit: BTW we don't see this with the SPD3303X, see link below.

Note the thread started here.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lab-power-supply-turn-on-and-off-characteristics/

Best

[MildInductor]

Setup: SPD4121X
- Generic Blue LED (see IMG_20241006_151727.png)
- CH1 12V - 0.010A
- CH2 12V - 0.010A

Results:
- CH1 overshot to 3.48V => PSU shows 2.840V 0.0.10A in long run (see CH1-12V-10mA-BlueLED-10msec.png and CH1-12V-10mA-BlueLED-50msec.png)
- CH2 no overshot => PSU shows 2.840V 0.0.10A in long run (CH2-12V-10mA-BlueLED-10msec.png and CH2-12V-10mA-BlueLED-50msec.png and CH2-12V-10mA-BlueLED-500msec.png)

Awaiting comments

PS SPD4121X CH2 max voltage is 12V
For this reason I choose to use 12V for all tests with Blue LED

Is this overshoot likely to damage any general IC circuitry? Say if I was supplying 3.3V to a general purpose IC that was only rated to operate up to 3.3V. Would the spill over be enough to damage it generally speaking?

[Furna]

Setup: SPD4121X
- Generic Blue LED (see IMG_20241006_151727.png)
- CH1 12V - 0.010A
- CH2 12V - 0.010A

Results:
- CH1 overshot to 3.48V => PSU shows 2.840V 0.0.10A in long run (see CH1-12V-10mA-BlueLED-10msec.png and CH1-12V-10mA-BlueLED-50msec.png)
- CH2 no overshot => PSU shows 2.840V 0.0.10A in long run (CH2-12V-10mA-BlueLED-10msec.png and CH2-12V-10mA-BlueLED-50msec.png and CH2-12V-10mA-BlueLED-500msec.png)

Awaiting comments

PS SPD4121X CH2 max voltage is 12V
For this reason I choose to use 12V for all tests with Blue LED

Is this overshoot likely to damage any general IC circuitry? Say if I was supplying 3.3V to a general purpose IC that was only rated to operate up to 3.3V. Would the spill over be enough to damage it generally speaking?

It depends on the circuitry; some components are more tollerant than others.
Also it is not the voltage to damage a circuit; it's the current. And SPD4000X is not the worst in the class (note CH2 didn't overshoot).
Anyway here we are in a very corner case where we are testing different PSU (see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lab-power-supply-turn-on-and-off-characteristics/) deliberating pushing a high voltage and limiting the current to check how fast the over current protection kicks in.
IMHO this is not a factor to keep in consideration while choosing a PSU; it's a fact to be aware while using the PSU.
As a general rule: you should be aware of what you are going to supply current to and how tollerant it is and set up your PSU accordingly.
Sure we are human and here the over current protection ... but if you are powering a super expensive prototype circuit you will double take any precaution.

[ArdWar]

Is this overshoot likely to damage any general IC circuitry? Say if I was supplying 3.3V to a general purpose IC that was only rated to operate up to 3.3V. Would the spill over be enough to damage it generally speaking?

With regards to this specific exercise, no. It should not damage your circuit IF you use your PSU in constant voltage mode.

The aforementioned overshoot only happen (so far) when PSU are configured (and expected) to startup directly into constant current mode. That isn't exactly normal nor usual mode of operation.
Even then, you normally shouldn't set the CV setpoint that far high (say, 8.0V here) when you expect your I*R product to never get that high (say, 40mA*50Ω = 2.0V here). In this situation a sensible user should set the CV setpoint at something like 3.0V.

[MildInductor]

I see, thank you both!

[mhsprang]

The aforementioned overshoot only happen (so far) when PSU are configured (and expected) to startup directly into constant current mode. That isn't exactly normal nor usual mode of operation.

Why isn't that a normal mode of operation? It is, after all, advertized as one of the modes a PSU can operate in. CV means "constant voltage" whereas CC means "constant current". What makes the meaning of constant different in both definitions?

Even then, you normally shouldn't set the CV setpoint that far high (say, 8.0V here) when you expect your I*R product to never get that high (say, 40mA*50Ω = 2.0V here). In this situation a sensible user should set the CV setpoint at something like 3.0V.

But what if I don't know the expected maximum voltage? I'll give you a real life example: I once had to repair a small heater that looked like a wood stove. This heater contained a string of orange LEDS, to light the fake flames. This string was connected to mains using a big ceramic resistor that got flaming hot and eventually burned. To find out the proper value of this resitor, I needed to push 20 mA through the string of LED's without knowing the actual V_FWD and the number of LED's in the potted piece of plastic. In that case, I could have taken a power supply, set to CC at 20 mA, connect the LED and hit the Output button in order to read the total V_FWD of the entire string. Is that such an odd application of a PSU?

And with some of the PSU's in this thread, I could have blown all the LED's, hypothetically.

[2N3055]

The aforementioned overshoot only happen (so far) when PSU are configured (and expected) to startup directly into constant current mode. That isn't exactly normal nor usual mode of operation.

Why isn't that a normal mode of operation? It is, after all, advertized as one of the modes a PSU can operate in. CV means "constant voltage" whereas CC means "constant current". What makes the meaning of constant different in both definitions?

Even then, you normally shouldn't set the CV setpoint that far high (say, 8.0V here) when you expect your I*R product to never get that high (say, 40mA*50Ω = 2.0V here). In this situation a sensible user should set the CV setpoint at something like 3.0V.

But what if I don't know the expected maximum voltage? I'll give you a real life example: I once had to repair a small heater that looked like a wood stove. This heater contained a string of orange LEDS, to light the fake flames. This string was connected to mains using a big ceramic resistor that got flaming hot and eventually burned. To find out the proper value of this resitor, I needed to push 20 mA through the string of LED's without knowing the actual V_FWD and the number of LED's in the potted piece of plastic. In that case, I could have taken a power supply, set to CC at 20 mA, connect the LED and hit the Output button in order to read the total V_FWD of the entire string. Is that such an odd application of a PSU?

And with some of the PSU's in this thread, I could have blown all the LED's, hypothetically.

You couldn't because you probably would not have enough voltage to light  them in a first place.

As to good practice, you would set voltage to some low value and set 20mA.
Connect DUT, enable output and slowly ramp up the voltage...

[mawyatt]

Is this overshoot likely to damage any general IC circuitry? Say if I was supplying 3.3V to a general purpose IC that was only rated to operate up to 3.3V. Would the spill over be enough to damage it generally speaking?

Overshoot Voltage can and will damage/destroy certain components, of coarse this depends on the component and amount of Over Voltage. CMOS failure is caused by gate oxide puncture, many of today's advanced chips have very thin and hence low breakdown oxides (some BJTs have thin base regions). 2 decades ago we were dealing with custom chips that ~3 volts would certainly destroy, they normally operated at ~1.2 volts!!

Another potential effect is when Current Limit is engaged such as the discussion mentioned here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lab-power-supply-turn-on-and-off-characteristics/

Anyway, IMO ANY Overshoot Condition is a potential disaster in the waiting. A perfect Power Supply should not Overshoot during Turn ON or Turn OFF under any conditions. Actual supplies will deviate from perfect behavior is various ways, some better than others.

Best

[mawyatt]

As to good practice, you would set voltage to some low value and set 20mA.
Connect DUT, enable output and slowly ramp up the voltage...

Good advice with any unknown DUT situation

With known DUT and developmental work (what we mostly do/did) we almost always set the Overcurrent (CC) Limit to slightly above normal (expected) current draw and the Voltage (CV) to the desired operating voltage. We've been "saved" by this procedure more times than we care to admit

Best

[ArdWar]

Why isn't that a normal mode of operation?

I should've word it better, what I meant is that direct into CC is not exactly commonly used feature. And the problem mentioned above is not "normally" appliable to the use case presented in the posted question.
Yes I agree that proper CV AND CC is expected (and should be guaranteed) mode of operation, but CV is by far the more common usage and is the one that applies to the posted question, and so far no decent PSU fails so bad that it violate CV setpoint.

To put it simply, the particular problem discussed here is not where you set your PSU at 3.3V and it somehow overshoot to 8.0V. It is where you set 10mA and it somehow go all the way to 160mA.

[Furna]

Overshoot Voltage can and will damage/destroy certain components ...

Execess of current due to the Overshoot Volatge can and will damage/destory certain components ...
 

[mawyatt]

Overshoot Voltage can and will damage/destroy certain components ...

Execess of current due to the overvolatge can and will damage/destory certain components ...
 

Actually the overvoltage can without much current at all. CMOS Gate Oxides fail due to voltage, they are so thin today, a few atoms thick, that it doesn't take much voltage (or current) to puncture the oxide and cause a failure, and in it takes very very little current for this puncture to happen

BTW BJTs are also susceptible, altho they tend to take more current as the usual failure mode is localized heating. A couple decades ago we were dealing with 400~500GHz SiGe BJTs in a BiCMOS process that had junction breakdowns below 2V, you could fry these by just looking at them it seemed....exteremely sensitive to any over voltage.

Of course as always YMMV!!

Best

Best

[seajayshore]

Looking forward to a video review on these! They look great on paper! 

[Furna]

Overshoot Voltage can and will damage/destroy certain components ...

Execess of current due to the overvolatge can and will damage/destory certain components ...
 

Actually the overvoltage can without much current at all. CMOS Gate Oxides fail due to voltage, they are so thin today, a few atoms thick, that it doesn't take much voltage (or current) to puncture the oxide and cause a failure, and in it takes very very little current for this puncture to happen

BTW BJTs are also susceptible, altho they tend to take more current as the usual failure mode is localized heating. A couple decades ago we were dealing with 400~500GHz SiGe BJTs in a BiCMOS process that had junction breakdowns below 2V, you could fry these by just looking at them it seemed....exteremely sensitive to any over voltage.

Of course as always YMMV!!

Best

Best

Let me insist
Voltage does not flow, Voltage is potential difference or as Fluke states "Voltage is the pressure from an electrical circuit's power source that pushes charged electrons (current) through a conducting loop" https://www.fluke.com/en/learn/blog/electrical/what-is-voltage
Wikipedia "Voltage, also known as (electrical) potential difference, electric pressure, or electric tension is the difference in electric potential between two points." https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage&ved=2ahUKEwiNiNjl5_yIAxW9cfEDHUD3Id4QFnoECDwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw313bQM2LG1bdUNXXllrJqE
Even a smal potential difference might make an electron moves.
Electrons move and can damage things

[mawyatt]

Let me insist
Voltage does not flow, Voltage is potential difference or as Fluke states "Voltage is the pressure from an electrical circuit's power source that pushes charged electrons (current) through a conducting loop" https://www.fluke.com/en/learn/blog/electrical/what-is-voltage
Wikipedia "Voltage, also known as (electrical) potential difference, electric pressure, or electric tension is the difference in electric potential between two points." https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage&ved=2ahUKEwiNiNjl5_yIAxW9cfEDHUD3Id4QFnoECDwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw313bQM2LG1bdUNXXllrJqE
Even a smal potential difference might make an electron moves.
Electrons move and can damage things

Yes electrons move and can damage things, and how much current is a few electrons moving thru a thin oxide 

Best

[MildInductor]

My SPD4323X has arrived. From playing with it for a few moments it seems to be a good product overall. The buttons and encoder don’t feel as high quality as my SDS800X-series scope, but they are definitely useable. I am keen to start using it!

[Furna]

My SPD4323X has arrived. From playing with it for a few moments it seems to be a good product overall. The buttons and encoder don’t feel as high quality as my SDS800X-series scope, but they are definitely useable. I am keen to start using it!

Enjoy it but move it on the bench; can't see it on the floor! 
Indeed I like the "clicky" encoder.
Share your opinion soon.

[Furna]

[...] and how much current is a few electrons moving thru a thin oxide 

1eV=1.602*10^-19 J
1[C]=6.25*10^18 electrons
Q= algebric sum of electrical charges

... anyway I have to admit I am not aware of phisical characteristics of oxide.

[mawyatt]

[...] and how much current is a few electrons moving thru a thin oxide 

1eV=1.602*10^-19 J
1[C]=6.25*10^18 electrons
Q= algebric sum of electrical charges

... anyway I have to admit I am not aware of phisical characteristics of oxide.

Modern CMOS gate oxide layers are ~1nm thick. One electron per microsecond is 150fA, or 0.15pA. Oxide breakdown occurs 1st with a soft nature, then hard breakdown occurs. Soft is when a localized gate oxide conductive path is formed (soft failure device degradation), hard is when this becomes permanent (hard failure device destruction). The effective current levels for these effects are very small!!

Anyway, we should start another topic on this and not disrupt this thread about the new SPD4000X.

Best