Author Topic: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$  (Read 3344 times)

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Offline tautech

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2023, 07:29:36 pm »
Where are you finding TDS210 scopes cheap? They've always been overpriced IMO, I don't recall ever seeing a bargain on one. Good working analog scopes are getting a lot harder to come by too, they're almost all more than 20 years old now.
100 %

The newbie is a little foolish if they overlook a reasonably modern DSO.
At some point in our scope apprenticeships we have all needed guidance which is where capturing a screenshot to USB is so so convenient. In it after little description we can see a waveform capture and if done with some care all the important scope settings.
When I brought my first, a Tek TDS2012B, some years before Siglent came into my life, USB screenshots was a nonnegotiable feature required.
Nice DSO it was too but soon you require more than the pitiful memory depth old DSO's offered.
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Offline tautech

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2023, 07:31:27 pm »
I would avoid the Chinese digital scopes.
Of course you would, being from another age where all that was available was CRO's.
We live in a vastly different age today.
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2023, 07:49:45 pm »
I would avoid the Chinese digital scopes.

A beginner can easily find a 2 ch 10..50 MHz vintage analog scope for $/€ 25..100.

Hameg, Philips, Tektronix HP.

We found a,Hameg HM103 in Paris at a flea market is €5, ans another Hameg, HM203 at a,street market forward €25

Both still,working

Jon

And I would avoid old crap that I spend more time repairing then using...
Even a good, working, 100MHz analog CRT scope is today outclassed on so many levels by these "Chinese" entry level scopes...

People today that are learning how to use scope need to know how to use scopes of today and tomorrow. Not how it was done 40 years ago..
You and I have warm and fuzzy memories of how magical it was to use your first Tek scope in those days. That is all. It's nostalgia. Of the time long gone...
Sorry...  I miss those simpler days too...
 

Online nctnico

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2023, 08:00:38 pm »
Agreed. No need for the old crap. When visiting my parents I like to see my first analog scope still sitting in my old and what is now my father's electronics lab but I'd hate having to use it again. My 2nd scope was a DSO and I never looked back.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2023, 11:22:10 pm »
I love my analog scope and still use it sometimes, and when they were cheap and easy to find I would often advise beginners start with one but that was 10-20 years ago and things have changed. Analog scopes aren't nearly as easy to find as they used to be, especially good working ones. Some of the better ones have achieved collectible status and prices have gone up a bit. The better Chinese DSOs are very good for what they cost.
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2023, 12:48:21 am »
I would avoid the Chinese digital scopes.

A beginner can easily find a 2 ch 10..50 MHz vintage analog scope for $/€ 25..100.

Oh, don't be silly.

We found a,Hameg HM103 in Paris at a flea market is €5, ans another Hameg, HM203 at a,street market forward €25

Can they stop the signal and zoom in? How about some on-screen measurements, can they do that? Not even the frequency of the signal...?? How about serial decodes or FFT?

How much space do they take up on the bench? How many years of life do you think they've still got in them?
 

Offline mastershakeTopic starter

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2023, 12:51:44 am »
i have personally multiple scopes some costing way more then these recc. remember this is for someone who wants to learn and end up doing some repair work for people as he does. i have been doing this for almost 30 years i just dont have to much exp with the very latest models and he asked me about them specifically and i had to say im not sure but i will ask. what i want for him is something to learn everything he needs to but also something he can in the future use as a bit more professional unit. eventually im sure he will upgrade as he can i did offer him one of my old ancient ones that still works fine but he wants to buy his own equipment and i respect that and admire that. its not all the time when you find someone who doesnt want handouts but wants to pave their own way.

some of these look great for him the i personally do not have any exp with the gw instek ones either so im curious myself lol damn it now i may have to buy something as a new toy lol.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2023, 01:03:24 am »
Can they stop the signal and zoom in? How about some on-screen measurements, can they do that? Not even the frequency of the signal...?? How about serial decodes or FFT?

How much space do they take up on the bench? How many years of life do you think they've still got in them?

Does it matter if it can do those things if they aren't features you need? People got by with analog scopes for many years and they can still do everything they ever could. If you need to measure the frequency you can use a frequency counter. If you need to decode serial you can use a logic analyzer. If you need FFT you can use a sound card or spectrum analyzer. A modern DSO is clearly superior today for almost everything but that doesn't mean an analog scope has no value. If you can find a good working analog scope for a low price then grab it, the best scope is whatever one you can get your hands on. If you're going to go out and buy something though the Rigol and Siglent DSOs offer an incredible amount of value for the money. If they weren't available I'd recommend an older analog scope but they are available and they're cheap enough that it's not worth messing with old stuff unless you want to mess with old stuff.
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2023, 01:46:44 am »
People got by with analog scopes for many years and they can still do everything they ever could.

People got by with slide rules for 300 years before the first affordable calculator but slide rules vanished very soon afterwards.

TLDR; A DSO can give you a lot more information a lot more quickly than a CRO.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2023, 02:01:01 am »
People got by with slide rules for 300 years before the first affordable calculator but slide rules vanished very soon afterwards.

TLDR; A DSO can give you a lot more information a lot more quickly than a CRO.

And if calculators were still hundreds of dollars and slide rules were cheap, it would make sense for people on a budget to pick up slide rules.

If you know how to use a CRO it can get you all the information you need, it's just not as straightfoward, I suspect you have never really used one beyond playing around. Even having a DSO, things like measuring frequency, decoding serial and viewing spectrum are better done with dedicated instruments.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2023, 02:11:54 am »
Even having a DSO, things like measuring frequency, decoding serial and viewing spectrum are better done with dedicated instruments.
Sure, but at how much additional cost ?

As you have already said the feature set of the modern DSO is outstanding and because of that we often don't need additional equipment.
Many hobbyists are severely space constrained which adds further to the attractiveness of the modern DSO.
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Online Fungus

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2023, 02:19:19 am »
And if calculators were still hundreds of dollars and slide rules were cheap, it would make sense for people on a budget to pick up slide rules.

No it wouldn't because:
a) Using a slide rule is much slower and more error-prone, and
b) The number of hours needed to become good at using one also costs you money.
c) Slide rules only give you 2-3 digits of precision no matter how good you are with one.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2023, 04:07:10 am »
No it wouldn't because:
a) Using a slide rule is much slower and more error-prone, and
b) The number of hours needed to become good at using one also costs you money.
c) Slide rules only give you 2-3 digits of precision no matter how good you are with one.

That depends on budget and needs, in the real world you get what you can afford that meets your needs.

I still don't think you've ever used a CRO beyond just playing around. They're far more capable than you give them credit.
 

Offline pdenisowski

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2023, 08:58:22 am »
And if calculators were still hundreds of dollars and slide rules were cheap, it would make sense for people on a budget to pick up slide rules.

When I was a (starving) grad school student I spent the equivalent of two months of food money to buy an HP48G calculator. 

Sure I could have kept inverting matrices by hand :), but sometimes new technology offers improvements that justify a substantial increase in cost.

When TI first introduced portable calculators that could do things like roots, powers, logs, and trig, the slide rules vanished from my high school almost overnight .....
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Offline pdenisowski

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2023, 09:03:35 am »
People got by with slide rules for 300 years before the first affordable calculator but slide rules vanished very soon afterwards.

Don't forget the "CRC Standard Mathematical Tables" book.  I was still using my copy long after calculators became a thing .... :)
Test and Measurement Fundamentals video series on the Rohde & Schwarz YouTube channel:  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKxVoO5jUTlvsVtDcqrVn0ybqBVlLj2z8

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Offline james_s

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2023, 06:03:19 pm »
There is also a far greater difference in capability and usability between a slide rule and a calculator than there is between a CRO and DSO. The one killer feature that a DSO offers is single shot capture and there were analog storage CROs that could do this too. The readouts and measurements are nice, but again quite a few of the later CROs had this feature too. Lacking it, reading the graticule is not difficult, the readout just adds a bit of convenience. Even without storage a scope camera enabled single shot capture. FFT is unique to a DSO but in my experience it isn't really all that useful, it's not nearly as good as a proper spectrum analyzer. I used analog scopes for ~15 years before I ever had a DSO, I think the DSO is a significant improvement in almost every way, but I can still pull out the analog scope and use it for most things, it's not a laborious chore like doing complex calculations by hand. It shows me the waveform and that's all I really need most of the time. A DSO is just a refinement that adds some abilities and convenience.
 

Offline mastershakeTopic starter

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2023, 05:09:04 am »
he said he was browsing around and asked me today about hantek (on aliexpress) any thoughts from anyone here on those i notice in reading some hate them and some seem to like them. just curious.

 

Offline Bionicbone

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2023, 06:16:42 am »
Me too to be honest, although too late, the new Siglent SDS1104x-e arrived yesterday.

The problem is with the "nothings changed in years" thing means here are so many videos over the years that covers everything but some \ most \ all issues have been resolved.

In the end I went Siglent since the business it's self suggest that's they would need to be in the later group, but the cheaper end I suspect could be one of the former.

I never did find a video pitching the best in each class, very cheap, budget, quality budget together from a new to scopes hobbyist point of view and where each would become a problem on the learning journey. It seems obvious to me that someone who's been using scopes for years would probably get frustrated with a scope not as quick or had advanced limitations, but as a newbie I seemed to keep getting pushed up the scale because I just wasn't sure if things would quickly hold me back.

That said, I am happy with my decision, I feel it should get me as far as I want to go or get to, and I won't be left wondering, scope issue or circuit? (I hope).
 

Offline n4u

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2023, 06:33:59 am »
I was out of date, pricing went up these days. There was time when u could buy analog or old dso for about 100USD, now you should stick with rigol - old one are overpriced ...
 

Offline robert.rozee

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2023, 01:32:07 pm »
he said he was browsing around and asked me today about hantek (on aliexpress) any thoughts from anyone here on those i notice in reading some hate them and some seem to like them. just curious.

DSO2C10, DSO2C15, DSO2D10, DSO2D15: a relatively new model. people seem to have various problems with firmware bugs, and they seem to be designed and built to a very low price point. i'd personally not recommend them unless your budget is very constrained, and advise to keep your expectations quite low. having said that, they are better than no scope!

there is also Hantek's DSO5072P that he may have seen and has been around for quite a number of years. relatively small memory depth (40kpts i think) and they seem to have a propensity to occasionally blow up their power supply or corrupt internal firmware. again, only consider if your budget is constrained and keep your expectations low.

as for AliExpress: don't touch with a barge-pole! you will have next to no backup if anything goes wrong such as a warranty claim. i buy quite a bit from Ebay (china), and occasionally from AliExpress, but only small items where i am happy to write off the purchase if the purchase turns out to be a dud. small components and electronic modules, nothing costing more than a few dollars.

my scope recommendation would be to go for Siglent, their models are a generation newer than Rigol's DS1054z et al. OR, if he can find a cheap/small transistorized CRO built post-1980 for us$30 or less, get that as a stopgap until he decides upon a DSO. a CRO is still usable for many things, but as others have said a DSO can do a whole lot more.


all 100% opinion, of course!

cheers,
rob   :-)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 01:34:45 pm by robert.rozee »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2023, 03:15:13 pm »
he said he was browsing around and asked me today about hantek (on aliexpress) any thoughts from anyone here on those i notice in reading some hate them and some seem to like them. just curious.

Hanteks might look the same as Rigols/Siglents/Insteks in photos but they're usually very feature-poor and buggy by comparison.

 

Online Fungus

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2023, 03:18:07 pm »
People got by with slide rules for 300 years before the first affordable calculator but slide rules vanished very soon afterwards.

Don't forget the "CRC Standard Mathematical Tables" book.  I was still using my copy long after calculators became a thing .... :)

I've got some somewhere.

(4, 5 and 6-digit...)

 

Online Fungus

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2023, 03:19:19 pm »
I was out of date, pricing went up these days. There was time when u could buy analog or old dso for about 100USD, now you should stick with rigol - old one are overpriced ...

Prices went up and they're all ten years older than before.
 

Offline mastershakeTopic starter

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2023, 03:59:14 pm »
gotcha on the hantek's i think the only reason he was looking is due to the sale they are running now where they are something like 55$ or more off the price but def doesnt sound like something either one of of us are interested in me for teaching or him for the bugs and issues. the hantek model i think he was looking at was the DSO4254B if im correct. he also noted the owon and unit-t brands there.

he seems to be leaning towards the siglent unit i believe vs the rigol but as long as either will be a good unit for him im sure whichever he goes with should work out great. thank you all so much for the help.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 04:07:20 pm by mastershake »
 

Online BillyO

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Re: o scope for someone starting out 200-400$
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2023, 04:28:00 pm »
Avoid UNI-T.  They do not know the meaning of the word "support".

BTW, if you have an expensive mechanical switch keyboard I'd be interested in buying your shift key switches.  Some of the punctuation switches might be interest too as they are apparently unused. :-DD
Bill  (Currently a Siglent fanboy)
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