Oh NO! I'm never buying any Agilent Keysight equipment ever again!

[bsgd]

Hi @MT,

I'm definitely the main person present on this forum, but we do a lot of repairs, cal, & servicing everyday without me having to intervene (thank goodness!).  I really like my job here at Keysight, so there are no plans there!

I agree that it's best if no one ever needs customer support, but as engineers we all know that's not a reality. Part of why I'm on this forum is to be a double check to make sure things don't slip through the cracks. This is a good example of a weird corner case that our normal processes won't necessarily catch so I can intervene and help out. It's also worth noting that our call center application engineers were also ready to jump in and help out, but since I'd already started working on it I told them I'd take care of it.

True.

Before Daniel joined this discussion, I sent an e-mail to Keysight support explaining my situation. I got a response from Jason in the following working day and he was ready to help, but then Daniel was already taking care of this.

[rch]

Hi @MT,

I'm definitely the main person present on this forum, but we do a lot of repairs, cal, & servicing everyday without me having to intervene (thank goodness!).  I really like my job here at Keysight, so there are no plans there!

I agree that it's best if no one ever needs customer support, but as engineers we all know that's not a reality. Part of why I'm on this forum is to be a double check to make sure things don't slip through the cracks. This is a good example of a weird corner case that our normal processes won't necessarily catch so I can intervene and help out. It's also worth noting that our call center application engineers were also ready to jump in and help out, but since I'd already started working on it I told them I'd take care of it.

True.

Before Daniel joined this discussion, I sent an e-mail to Keysight support explaining my situation. I got a response from Jason in the following working day and he was ready to help, but then Daniel was already taking care of this.

As a matter of interest, if this gets resolved are you going to take out the extended warranty?   It sounds like a real bargain compared with the repair costs!

[Wuerstchenhund]

I know Tektronix scopes are a bit outdated spec wise and do not have the newer functionality Keysight has, but they are built to last a lifetime.

So I guess you've never had much contact with their digital scopes then, because they are clearly not built to last a lifetime (from the cap plague and the stupid LCD shutter on the old TDSxxx Series to the pretty failure-prone TDS5k/7k/CSA Series).

The only part you got right is that they are outdated spec-wise. Tek scopes are also generally horribly slow up to a point where they just lock up when something demanding is asked of them. Most of their scopes are also pretty dated designs, because instead of investing in real product development Tek has mostly resigned to sell slight refreshes of their stale products. Support has also taken a nose dive, which, considering that Tek is a Danaher company, shouldn't be surprising.

Tek was without doubt the leader in analog scopes, but most of their DSOs were average at best. For digital scopes, it's pretty much LeCroy who has and still is pushing development forward, and to some extend HP/Agilent/Keysight as well.

The Tek of today is the bottom-of-the-barrel of the big brands, and their sales reflect that (almost no-one outside the edu sector where Tek offers huge incentives buys Tek these days, unless they are forced to or their awareness of the T&M market is stuck in the '80s).

Believe it or not, I still have an original Tektronix 455 which works perfectly fine.

A 30yr old boat anchor isn't a good example of the longevity of modern products from the same manufacturer. Tek built great scopes back then when analog scopes were still the dominant form of scopes, but that was over 25 years ago! It's silly to assume that not much has changed since then.

[Wuerstchenhund]

In the 1970s a basic 200MHz scope from HP or Tek cost an entire year's salary. If enough people were happy to pay an entire years salary for one today, I'm sure Keysight could make an extremely robust basic 200MHz scope.

The 70s scopes failed quite frequently, and only had a 90 days warranty. They were very repairable, which is why quite a few are still running today, but you did end up with a lot of repairs you needed to pay for.

How true! People believe just because an old instrument works today that they all do, or that they never needed repairs. I can only think back with horror to scopes like the Tektronix 7000 modular series which we had many of back then, and which were the most failure-prone scopes I've ever seen (and I've seen a lot). Not that other analog scopes were without flaws, I've seen a fair share of selector issues, defective HV section, dying power supplies on lots of them. And as you say, the fact that they usually can be fixed easily is the main reason many are still around today, not because they have been wonders of reliability (which they weren't).

I also don't know why people think a modern scope can't last 30 years or so like some of the old boat anchors from back then. Just look how many HP 54500 scopes (approx 25yrs old), 54600 scopes (roughly 20yrs old), LeCroy 9300 scopes (also roughly 20yrs old) and others are still in use. Hell, there are even many HP 54100 Series scopes (sample scope from the late '80s) and LeCroy 9400/7200 scopes (realtime scopes from the same era) still around.

I can't see why a modern scope shouldn't be able to last a similar time.

[Fungus]

Its kind of creepy people have only him to rely on!

Yep. I'm not interested in seeing if Daniel sorts this one device out or not. I'm Interested in seeing if the Brazilian distributor gets fixed.

[Wuerstchenhund]

As a matter of interest, if this gets resolved are you going to take out the extended warranty?   It sounds like a real bargain compared with the repair costs!

Yes, it is. In fact, for most Agilent/Keysight gear that is still supported the Repair Agreements are generally pretty cheap. Which is why I put most of my Agilent/Keysight gear under a 3yr agreement (aside from my DSO8064A scope which will be out of support in less than a year and my old E4406A which has been out of support for many years).

It's also worth considering as an alternative to buying a new Keysight instrument. Buying a second hand instrument plus a Repair Agreement  often turns out a lot cheaper than the new device.

[VK5RC]

Re service-ability/durability of modern scopes, the ASICs , high density boards and often lack of schematics would appear to make repair quite difficult. I suspect that modern scopes are better assembled and the quality of parts/PCBs better as well.

[bsgd]

Hi @MT,

I'm definitely the main person present on this forum, but we do a lot of repairs, cal, & servicing everyday without me having to intervene (thank goodness!).  I really like my job here at Keysight, so there are no plans there!

I agree that it's best if no one ever needs customer support, but as engineers we all know that's not a reality. Part of why I'm on this forum is to be a double check to make sure things don't slip through the cracks. This is a good example of a weird corner case that our normal processes won't necessarily catch so I can intervene and help out. It's also worth noting that our call center application engineers were also ready to jump in and help out, but since I'd already started working on it I told them I'd take care of it.

True.

Before Daniel joined this discussion, I sent an e-mail to Keysight support explaining my situation. I got a response from Jason in the following working day and he was ready to help, but then Daniel was already taking care of this.

As a matter of interest, if this gets resolved are you going to take out the extended warranty?   It sounds like a real bargain compared with the repair costs!

Of course, even for my other scopes. I wont takes any chances after finding out HOW EXPENSIVE these reapirs are.

[bsgd]

Its kind of creepy people have only him to rely on!

Yep. I'm not interested in seeing if Daniel sorts this one device out or not. I'm Interested in seeing if the Brazilian distributor gets fixed.

I would love to see this happening too, but I'm not so sure this is an easy task.

[rch]

Its kind of creepy people have only him to rely on!

Yep. I'm not interested in seeing if Daniel sorts this one device out or not. I'm Interested in seeing if the Brazilian distributor gets fixed.

But it is arguable whether the Brazil office/distributor were in the wrong - depends if the second scope could be considered to be not fit for sale[1] -  it seems just the sort of case for a discretionary decision by Keysight customer services to me.


[1]  what would you have said if the original scope the OP had bought had shown a PLL fault a few months out of warranty?

[Fungus]

Re service-ability/durability of modern scopes, the ASICs , high density boards and often lack of schematics would appear to make repair quite difficult.

OTOH: The high level of integration makes them much more reliable. It's very unlikely a main board will fail once it's passed the initial burn-in period.

[Wuerstchenhund]

OTOH: The high level of integration makes them much more reliable. It's very unlikely a main board will fail once it's passed the initial burn-in period.

It will fail, eventually, after all like any other component it will suffer from wear, and maybe some other stresses (i.e. thermally induced).

But in general it should work for a very long time before failing.

[Fungus]

Yep. I'm not interested in seeing if Daniel sorts this one device out or not. I'm Interested in seeing if the Brazilian distributor gets fixed.

But it is arguable whether the Brazil office/distributor were in the wrong - depends if the second scope could be considered to be not fit for sale[1] -  it seems just the sort of case for a discretionary decision by Keysight customer services to me.

[1]  what would you have said if the original scope the OP had bought had shown a PLL fault a few months out of warranty?

I get that if they reset the warranty to zero when they send out a replacement then certain people would see that as "Free oscilloscope for life!!"

In this case though: The replacement failed within a very short time. I'd expect a bit of discretion from a company with any pride in its after-sales service.

[alank2]

If a replacement is offered and it is close to the expiration period, there needs to be a minimal amount such as 6 months, a year, etc. in case the replacement is a bad unit.  Same deal on a repair, or at least the repaired component needs to have warranty coverage if IT is the issue a second time.

Manufacturers that offer a premium product should naturally have longer warranties.  While technically they are not responsible for 1 day outside of warranty, a company that wants to maintain a good relationship with their customers, especially those companies where you pay a premium, they should do all they can do maintain that good relationship.  Always that is covering a design fault even out of warranty IMHO if they care about their reputation.  Sometimes that is a repair outside of warranty depending on the situation.  They should also always try to do repairs at a reasonable price.  I think that is probably my biggest issue with the way they have handled this case.  Yes, it is out of warranty, but (a) they would have been wise given the situation to keep their customer happy, and (b) their repair estimate was insanely high.

I once had a Canon camera, and not a pricy one, that was probably 5 times out of warranty because it was so old.  It developed an issue and I called them and they said that even though it was out of warranty, they still had parts available for it, and they chose to repair it at no charge.  I was very impressed, and I spend my "camera" dollars accordingly...

[bsgd]

If a replacement is offered and it is close to the expiration period, there needs to be a minimal amount such as 6 months, a year, etc. in case the replacement is a bad unit.  Same deal on a repair, or at least the repaired component needs to have warranty coverage if IT is the issue a second time.

Manufacturers that offer a premium product should naturally have longer warranties.  While technically they are not responsible for 1 day outside of warranty, a company that wants to maintain a good relationship with their customers, especially those companies where you pay a premium, they should do all they can do maintain that good relationship.  Always that is covering a design fault even out of warranty IMHO if they care about their reputation.  Sometimes that is a repair outside of warranty depending on the situation.  They should also always try to do repairs at a reasonable price.  I think that is probably my biggest issue with the way they have handled this case.  Yes, it is out of warranty, but (a) they would have been wise given the situation to keep their customer happy, and (b) their repair estimate was insanely high.

I once had a Canon camera, and not a pricy one, that was probably 5 times out of warranty because it was so old.  It developed an issue and I called them and they said that even though it was out of warranty, they still had parts available for it, and they chose to repair it at no charge.  I was very impressed, and I spend my "camera" dollars accordingly...

Agree.

Some years ago I had a similar problem. My iPod nano (cant remember which generation, but much bigger than todays) failed 6 or 7 months after the Apple warranty expired. I too it to the Apple service center here. The guy told me the repair would probably cost me more than a new one, but I should leave it there for an estimate. It was sent to the Appler repair center in Sao Paulo and I got a phone call 3 days later: Apple decided to give me a new one free of charge. I dont know why, maybe it was a known problem, ad I certainly did not expect that. I already assumed it was unrepairable and I should start looking for a new one. What I do know is that I am a happy customer and have been for 8 years now. Not a single customer support issue with Apple so far, even with lots of stuff from them. They reply complaints very fast, get things solved quickly and are very kind and polite. This is my experience, but YMMV

I'm not an Apple fanboy at all, just a happy customer.

[GlowingGhoul]

Yep. I'm not interested in seeing if Daniel sorts this one device out or not. I'm Interested in seeing if the Brazilian distributor gets fixed.

But it is arguable whether the Brazil office/distributor were in the wrong - depends if the second scope could be considered to be not fit for sale[1] -  it seems just the sort of case for a discretionary decision by Keysight customer services to me.

[1]  what would you have said if the original scope the OP had bought had shown a PLL fault a few months out of warranty?

I get that if they reset the warranty to zero when they send out a replacement then certain people would see that as "Free oscilloscope for life!!"

In this case though: The replacement failed within a very short time. I'd expect a bit of discretion from a company with any pride in its after-sales service.

5 months is not a very short period of time. His warranty expired, he had the opportunity to buy an extended warranty and chose not to. Like a spoiled child, he keeps blasting Keysight as if it's a poor company because it won't give him the out-of-warranty freebee he wants.

His demands are rude, irrational, and instead of graciously accepting Daniel's offer to assist he keeps insulting Keysight and has engaged an attorney.

If I were Keysight, I wouldn't do a damn thing more for this guy. Let the man who says he can't afford a phone call from Brazil to the US use the attorney he hired to sue them. I'm certain he'll lose.

[rsjsouza]

Yep. I'm not interested in seeing if Daniel sorts this one device out or not. I'm Interested in seeing if the Brazilian distributor gets fixed.

But it is arguable whether the Brazil office/distributor were in the wrong - depends if the second scope could be considered to be not fit for sale[1] -  it seems just the sort of case for a discretionary decision by Keysight customer services to me.

[1]  what would you have said if the original scope the OP had bought had shown a PLL fault a few months out of warranty?

I get that if they reset the warranty to zero when they send out a replacement then certain people would see that as "Free oscilloscope for life!!"

In this case though: The replacement failed within a very short time. I'd expect a bit of discretion from a company with any pride in its after-sales service.

5 months is not a very short period of time. His warranty expired, he had the opportunity to buy an extended warranty and chose not to. Like a spoiled child, he keeps blasting Keysight as if it's a poor company because it won't give him the out-of-warranty freebee he wants.

His demands are rude, irrational, and instead of graciously accepting Daniel's offer to assist he keeps insulting Keysight and has engaged an attorney.

If I were Keysight, I wouldn't do a damn thing more for this guy. Let the man who says he can't afford a phone call from Brazil to the US use the attorney he hired to sue them. I'm certain he'll lose.

Dude, you really need to read the thread. The original issue was about the ridiculous price of a repair, not getting something for nothing. 

[timb]

If a replacement is offered and it is close to the expiration period, there needs to be a minimal amount such as 6 months, a year, etc. in case the replacement is a bad unit.  Same deal on a repair, or at least the repaired component needs to have warranty coverage if IT is the issue a second time.

Manufacturers that offer a premium product should naturally have longer warranties.  While technically they are not responsible for 1 day outside of warranty, a company that wants to maintain a good relationship with their customers, especially those companies where you pay a premium, they should do all they can do maintain that good relationship.  Always that is covering a design fault even out of warranty IMHO if they care about their reputation.  Sometimes that is a repair outside of warranty depending on the situation.  They should also always try to do repairs at a reasonable price.  I think that is probably my biggest issue with the way they have handled this case.  Yes, it is out of warranty, but (a) they would have been wise given the situation to keep their customer happy, and (b) their repair estimate was insanely high.

I once had a Canon camera, and not a pricy one, that was probably 5 times out of warranty because it was so old.  It developed an issue and I called them and they said that even though it was out of warranty, they still had parts available for it, and they chose to repair it at no charge.  I was very impressed, and I spend my "camera" dollars accordingly...

Agree.

Some years ago I had a similar problem. My iPod nano (cant remember which generation, but much bigger than todays) failed 6 or 7 months after the Apple warranty expired. I too it to the Apple service center here. The guy told me the repair would probably cost me more than a new one, but I should leave it there for an estimate. It was sent to the Appler repair center in Sao Paulo and I got a phone call 3 days later: Apple decided to give me a new one free of charge. I dont know why, maybe it was a known problem, ad I certainly did not expect that. I already assumed it was unrepairable and I should start looking for a new one. What I do know is that I am a happy customer and have been for 8 years now. Not a single customer support issue with Apple so far, even with lots of stuff from them. They reply complaints very fast, get things solved quickly and are very kind and polite. This is my experience, but YMMV

I'm not an Apple fanboy at all, just a happy customer.

Same here. I once had a MacBook Pro fail (display or GPU issue) *one day* after the warranty expired. I brought it to the store and a tech took it into the back; 10 minutes later he handed me a box containing a brand new unit. Not only that, but it was also the top spec, newer generation version (with a faster CPU, bigger SSD and double the ram).

They didn't have to do that as I was technically outside my warranty. They could have replaced the GPU or display in my existing one and charged me for it! But I was polite and didn't make any demands, so they took care of me.

That's why I've been an Apple customer for 12 years now.

[rch]

If I were Keysight, I wouldn't do a damn thing more for this guy. Let the man who says he can't afford a phone call from Brazil to the US use the attorney he hired to sue them. I'm certain he'll lose.

Obviously I don't know about Brazilian law, but in the EU he might well win.  It might depend a bit on the exact contract if he bought as a business rather than as a consumer.

[rch]

Dude, you really need to read the thread. The original issue was about the ridiculous price of a repair, not getting something for nothing.

Yesbut, this does seem to be a standard Keysight price for any repair to this model.   

[wraper]

Same here. I once had a MacBook Pro fail (display or GPU issue) *one day* after the warranty expired. I brought it to the store and a tech took it into the back; 10 minutes later he handed me a box containing a brand new unit. Not only that, but it was also the top spec, newer generation version (with a faster CPU, bigger SSD and double the ram).

Not the case actually, there was no some exceptional good will from their side. GPU issue was Nvidia or AMD (depending which year it was) GPU design fault coupled together with ridiculously crappy cooling. This issue was covered by extended warranty period (probably because of the class action lawsuits). This wasn't because they decided so for your good but because this was general issue with those models. Also, if your laptop GPU would die in the way so it wouldn't be able too boot, they won't be able to run test app, and most likely you would be out of luck (there were many people like this). Even if the fault was in the same chip because of the same issue with it.
http://www.cultofmac.com/61338/nvidia-settles-class-action-lawsuit-over-macbook-pro-gpus/
http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/widespread-2011-macbook-pro-failures-petition-lawsuit-repair-programme-3497935/

[D3f1ant]

Apple (and Keysight) service experience seems to vary by country, in NZ the Apple service is fairly crapple, but here your dealing with the dreaded reseller not directly with Apple. They constantly try and flaunt our consumer protection laws, especially when it comes to supplying refurbished product as replacement for warranty claims.

[timb]

Same here. I once had a MacBook Pro fail (display or GPU issue) *one day* after the warranty expired. I brought it to the store and a tech took it into the back; 10 minutes later he handed me a box containing a brand new unit. Not only that, but it was also the top spec, newer generation version (with a faster CPU, bigger SSD and double the ram).

Not the case actually, there was no some exceptional good will from their side. GPU issue was Nvidia or AMD (depending which year it was) GPU design fault coupled together with ridiculously crappy cooling. This issue was covered by extended warranty period (probably because of the class action lawsuits). This wasn't because they decided so for your good but because this was general issue with those models. Also, if your laptop GPU would die in the way so it wouldn't be able too boot, they won't be able to run test app, and most likely you would be out of luck (there were many people like this). Even if the fault was in the same chip because of the same issue with it.
http://www.cultofmac.com/61338/nvidia-settles-class-action-lawsuit-over-macbook-pro-gpus/
http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/widespread-2011-macbook-pro-failures-petition-lawsuit-repair-programme-3497935/

It was before that issue. If I remember right, it was the *original* Intel MBP with a Core Duo that I had the problem with. They replaced it with a newer C2D unit. (So, when I mentioned it having a bigger SSD above, I meant HDD.)

[wraper]

Same here. I once had a MacBook Pro fail (display or GPU issue) *one day* after the warranty expired. I brought it to the store and a tech took it into the back; 10 minutes later he handed me a box containing a brand new unit. Not only that, but it was also the top spec, newer generation version (with a faster CPU, bigger SSD and double the ram).

Not the case actually, there was no some exceptional good will from their side. GPU issue was Nvidia or AMD (depending which year it was) GPU design fault coupled together with ridiculously crappy cooling. This issue was covered by extended warranty period (probably because of the class action lawsuits). This wasn't because they decided so for your good but because this was general issue with those models. Also, if your laptop GPU would die in the way so it wouldn't be able too boot, they won't be able to run test app, and most likely you would be out of luck (there were many people like this). Even if the fault was in the same chip because of the same issue with it.
http://www.cultofmac.com/61338/nvidia-settles-class-action-lawsuit-over-macbook-pro-gpus/
http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/widespread-2011-macbook-pro-failures-petition-lawsuit-repair-programme-3497935/

It was before that issue. If I remember right, it was the *original* Intel MBP with a Core Duo that I had the problem with. They replaced it with a newer C2D unit. (So, when I mentioned it having a bigger SSD above, I meant HDD.)

Core 2 duo with Nvidia GPU - faulty chips were made in 2006-2008

[timb]

Same here. I once had a MacBook Pro fail (display or GPU issue) *one day* after the warranty expired. I brought it to the store and a tech took it into the back; 10 minutes later he handed me a box containing a brand new unit. Not only that, but it was also the top spec, newer generation version (with a faster CPU, bigger SSD and double the ram).

Not the case actually, there was no some exceptional good will from their side. GPU issue was Nvidia or AMD (depending which year it was) GPU design fault coupled together with ridiculously crappy cooling. This issue was covered by extended warranty period (probably because of the class action lawsuits). This wasn't because they decided so for your good but because this was general issue with those models. Also, if your laptop GPU would die in the way so it wouldn't be able too boot, they won't be able to run test app, and most likely you would be out of luck (there were many people like this). Even if the fault was in the same chip because of the same issue with it.
http://www.cultofmac.com/61338/nvidia-settles-class-action-lawsuit-over-macbook-pro-gpus/
http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/widespread-2011-macbook-pro-failures-petition-lawsuit-repair-programme-3497935/

It was before that issue. If I remember right, it was the *original* Intel MBP with a Core Duo that I had the problem with. They replaced it with a newer C2D unit. (So, when I mentioned it having a bigger SSD above, I meant HDD.)

Core 2 duo with Nvidia GPU - faulty chips were made in 2006-2008

I had a CoreDuo. They replaced it with a Core2Duo unit which ran fine for 5 years. I guess I got lucky and my unit didn't have a faulty chip. I remember that whole fiasco!

(I don't think the problem I had with the CoreDuo was GPU related anyway. I'm pretty sure the DVI port worked with an external monitor, which means it was actually an LCD issue.)