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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: drtaylor on October 29, 2013, 11:31:29 pm

Title: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on October 29, 2013, 11:31:29 pm
Message to Dave: I worked at Fluke in the late 70s and early 80s as a design engineer. I started as a junior engineer on the original handheld DMM, the 8020. Later I was the chief designer of the very successful 8060 series, which by the way, was the first microcontroller based handheld DMM. Anyway, I have many Fluke DMMs that are gathering dust, and I wonder if you'd like them for your DMM collection? Most of them still work or just need minor repairs. Some of them are original hard model units, that is pre-production models. At one time I had a box of 30 or so 8060s that had a minor programming error, but otherwise worked fine. 8060s were cool for audio as they had dB conversion and a wide band (at least for the time, 100kHz) true RMS converter. I used to give them to friends, most notably, I gave one to my dear departed friend Jim Williams. Anyway, I have some of the first generation handhelds, 8020, 8026, 8060, 8062, benchtop versions 8012A, 37, and an 8920 Wideband TRMS AC Voltmeter that used a thermal converter. I also have a lot of vintage parts for various Fluke DMMs.

It probably isn't widely known anymore, but the A/D in the Fluke 8020 was developed in a joint venture with Intersil. Then Intersil decided to market it to the world by making a tiny change to get around exclusivity...lawsuits ensued. The Intersil version is still available...the venerable ICL7106 and the LED version which Fluke never used, the ICL7107. When we started on the 8060, Fluke decided they had to have their own silicon fab to keep Intersil from getting our 4 1/2 digit design. Good times, perhaps a bad business decision on Fluke's part since they ended being stuck with an obsolete process and couldn't justify the numbers necessary to update it. The original TRMS chip used in the 8060 was designed by Fluke guru Norm Strong and developed in a joint venture with Motorola (when they were just a silicon company).

Let me know, my wife would be glad to be rid of them.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: edavid on October 29, 2013, 11:38:42 pm
Did you work on the 8040A?  That's my favorite, although it's not very practical.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Mr Simpleton on October 29, 2013, 11:39:21 pm
 :-DMM :-+ :-+
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Kryoclasm on October 29, 2013, 11:50:09 pm
Used Fluke DMM's in the US Air Force for years, love them.
They really spoiled me, now I compare all DMM's to Fluke.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: poida_pie on October 30, 2013, 12:01:47 am
paging Mr Modemhead !

You need to see this.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Excavatoree on October 30, 2013, 12:06:35 am
paging Mr Modemhead !

You need to see this.
And Retiredcaps.

Wow.  Thanks for joining and posting.  I'm sort of partial to old Fluke meters, myself.

Now I know why some of the ICs I've seen were labeled Intersil.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Napalm2002 on October 30, 2013, 12:07:26 am
I have two 8020 a's two 8020b's an 8024 two 8060a's and an 8062. That all work and I love em. I could use a 8020a LCD if u have two laying around. I have two meters that need them and would love to fix them. If u have an 8060 that u would like to sell I would be interested...

Any more history or fluke trivia would be appreciated. I'm sure that I speak for all of us that we would love to hear it!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: HackedFridgeMagnet on October 30, 2013, 12:09:50 am
Quote
Let me know, my wife would be glad to be rid of them.

Spare a thought for Dave's wife.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Excavatoree on October 30, 2013, 12:23:04 am
I don't know anyone who collects these meters that doesn't need an 8020 LCD.   The meters continue to outlast the LCDs.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Dave on October 30, 2013, 12:23:30 am
I would love to see them torn down side-by-side, so we can see how their designs advanced through the years. I already got excited just thinking about it. Make this happen! ;D
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Excavatoree on October 30, 2013, 12:26:13 am
One question:  Was there any significant difference between the IBM branded 8060 and the "regular" one?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: SLJ on October 30, 2013, 01:10:05 am
Interesting information.  I talked to a retired Fluke 8020 production manager last week.
My first DMM was a 8020A,  Here's some pics of mine:

http://www.stevenjohnson.com/dmm.htm (http://www.stevenjohnson.com/dmm.htm)

Not enough for a Fluke page yet though.




Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on October 30, 2013, 01:40:53 am
paging Mr Modemhead !

You need to see this.

Here!  :D

It probably isn't widely known anymore, but the A/D in the Fluke 8020 was developed in a joint venture with Intersil. Then Intersil decided to market it to the world by making a tiny change to get around exclusivity...lawsuits ensued.

Thanks for clearing up the relationship of the ubiquitous ICL7106 and Fluke PN 429100.  That has always been a mystery to me!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Attorney on October 30, 2013, 03:38:03 am
Later I was the chief designer of the very successful 8060 series...

The 8060A is the greatest handheld DMM of all time.

Paul
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: lowimpedance on October 30, 2013, 04:00:45 am
Fantastic info.  :-+  , I wonder what that small change was!.
I have successfully transplanted an ICL7106 into an 8012a with no issues.
 Its still pleasing to see there are many 8020's and others in the series still out there.
I have two which sport 'new fitted LCD's' , that still get regular use.
I have many meters but my venerable old fluke 77 is still my most used ,(will have to be pried out of my cold dead fingers with a crow bar).


I just hope they go to a good home and not landfill.

Let me know, my wife would be glad to be rid of them.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: grenert on October 30, 2013, 04:43:47 am
Later I was the chief designer of the very successful 8060 series...

The 8060A is the greatest handheld DMM of all time.

Paul
I am totally with you on that.  :-+
You certainly wouldn't want to take an 8060A to a harsh environment, but for a bench-bound handheld, it is awesome.
Great work, drtaylor!!! (but I'm sure you already knew that)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on October 30, 2013, 07:21:14 am
Message to Dave: I worked at Fluke in the late 70s and early 80s as a design engineer. I started as a junior engineer on the original handheld DMM, the 8020. Later I was the chief designer of the very successful 8060 series, which by the way, was the first microcontroller based handheld DMM.
To Dave and Chris,

I for one would LOVE to have drtaylor on the amphour (or two or three) as a guest. 

To drtaylor,

We would love to hear more history about how these multimeters came to be and all your war stories.  :-DMM
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on October 30, 2013, 07:23:41 pm
To Attorney and grenart: Thank you, I thought so at the time too. It was definitely my most successful and satisfying design throughout my career. The original spec just called out for a 4 1/2 digit handheld with TRMS ac. I am an audiophile and used to play in bands, so I wanted a meter with dB and at least 100kHz bandwidth. I added a lot of features to the original spec which required a microcontroller. At the time, the only CMOS micro you could buy was CMOS versions of the 8049. Huge package and not all that capable. Then the SW engineer and I came across some literature about the Sharp SM4. Mostly used in calculators. Perfect...multiplex LCD drive and sufficient power to run the A/D chip and do the dB conversions. At the time, Fluke Sr was against using Japanese components and it fell to me to convince John that it was worth it. Fluke subsequently had a long relationship with Sharp. They also made the custom LCD. BTW I did the layout and multiplex scheme for the LCD segments too. Hand drawn on graph paper. Pre CAD. Somewhere I have the original hand drawn schematic of the 8060. Norm Strong designed the Silicon for the A/D and the TRMS converter, and Tom Wiseman was the software engineer and I was the hardware designer and project manager and provided all the text for the User Guide. Tragically my good friend Tom died a few years later mountain climbing here in Washington state.

To loimpedance: The only difference between the 8020 converter and the ICL7106 was that the Fluke chip electronically switches between 2V FS and 200mV FS, whereas the 7106 requires circuitry changes to accomplish the same. I'm curious how you got the 200mV range to work on your 8012A. The 8010a and 8012a multimeters were just repackaged 8020s for benchtop use. The 8012 added a 2 ohm and 20 ohm range with a pot to trim out lead resistance.

Someone asked about the 8040, it was in production about a year before I arrived at Fluke and I had nothing to do with it. It didn't last too long as the 8060 was a huge success  and significantly cheaper. The 8040s biggest problem was LED noise coming out the banana jacks limiting low level AC readings. But otherwise a fine DMM.

Regarding 8020 LCDs, I might have a few, I'll check. Even in storage though, the polarizer would delaminate or depolarize and the effect being a black screen. I have revived a few bad old Crystaloid 8020 LCDs by peeling off the front polarizer and using a loose one cut to size. I think I have more 8060 LCDs but they've been sitting in a bin for years.

To Excavatoree: There is no difference in the IBM version and the standard 8060 other than case color and label. The design of the 8060 was modified while it was in development to meet an IBM requirement. That brings up another story - I traveled to IBM in East Fishkill NY to firm up their requirements. I was accompanied by the local Fluke Rep, who basically just sat there while I discussed the technical requirements, as well as the custom color and label. This turned into the largest single sale in Fluke history at the time. I think they bought 10000 units. I and the SW Engineer Tom were personally thanked by John Fluke himself. Later I returned for a followup visit to IBM, the Rep (who had just sat there) took me out on his new yacht. So the score was Rep 1 (new yacht), hard working engineer who conceived, executed, and delivered the 8060, 0 (and an attaboy). That's when I realized the engineers place in the world. BTW I have a few IBM blue cases in my junk drawer (unless the wife got to them).

I have a list somewhere of 8060 tricks, but one I remember off the top of my head, because I spent a lot of time designing that switch array to do it... If you pop out the two bottom switches, the input is connected directly to the A/D and the 10M divider network is disconnected. Therefore, like far more expensive DMMs, you get near infinite input impedance. Works only on the 200mVdc and 2Vdc ranges of course. But useful for those times when you don't want to load the circuit with 10M ohms. The calibration shifts slightly, but relative accuracy it great with absolutely no circuit loading.

A little more on the Intersil 7106. When Intersil first announced the 7106 to the world, we stripped down the die. It still had the Fluke logo in microwriting on the die. They didn't even change that. Anyway Fluke was in a tough situation since it depended on Intersil for the 8020 and subsequent similar designs. In the end the lawsuit was settled for price concessions. We also were to receive the References free as a concession.

Too long a post, but feel free to ask any questions. I have a few more "war stories" that I'll share someday, but in conclusion, working at Fluke was a great experience and I learned a lot from some really talented engineers. I don't know if I'd be happy there now since they were acquired by Danaher, but it was a great place to work back then.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Attorney on October 30, 2013, 08:41:50 pm
...I am an audiophile and used to play in bands, so I wanted a meter with dB and at least 100kHz bandwidth. I added a lot of features to the original spec which required a microcontroller.

In a prior life, back in the early/mid-80s, I was an engineer at RKO Radio in Chicago.   It was a gig right out of college.   For two years, my boss and I led the design of many specialized audio and control projects.  But the one project designed that made extensive use of the 8060A was a precision (10, 1, 0.1 dB), ultra-low-distortion active attenuator that fit into a Tektronix TM series frame.  We needed a way to attenuate audio from the low-distortion/low noise output of a balanced Tektronix SG505 oscillator.  To accomplish that goal, we used a new active attenuator chip (at the time) from Analog Devices.  To test its accuracy, we relied solely on the 8060A.  For noise measurements, we did rely on a Tektronix AA-501A analyzer that was cross-checked with the 8060A.   As I recall, the 8060A in its lowest AC position is good down to about -74 dBm.  It sure may not be specified down that low, but it absolutely works down there.

Of all the test gear we used at RKO, the 8060A was without a doubt the most valuable to us.  It made such an impression on me that I've used them for the past thirty years.  It actually caused me to detest auto-ranging DMMs due to their long hunt times.  When I can find a NOS 8060A, my bid is in there.

Thanks for the design of the 8060A.  I have to believe the lives of many folks like myself were made easier by its availability.

Paul
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: PA4TIM on October 30, 2013, 09:06:01 pm
I have a 8022, the display was dead but Conrad or Farnell (can not remember)  sells a display + 7107 for a few bucks. I used that display
http://www.pa4tim.nl/?p=787 (http://www.pa4tim.nl/?p=787) to restore the 8022 (see link)

I have a 77-III, a 845AB,, a 8000 with 20A option and some cal stuff:  750, 760, 720, 332, 731, 535
I spend a lot of time restoring a 8500 with all documentation incl docs from training course an brochures. To bad it did not last, the controller died and I parted it. It had many option including the TRMS converter that was a piece of art. Very large crest factor and bandwidth.

(http://www.pa4tim.nl/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/8500front.jpg)

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on October 30, 2013, 09:49:15 pm
It was definitely my most successful and satisfying design throughout my career.
What other projects have you worked on?

Quote
I was the hardware designer and project manager and provided all the text for the User Guide.
I'm just learning more about how multimeters work over the last 12 months, but last year I managed to get a poorly worded ebay auction that landed me a non working IBM 8060A with two copies of the instruction manual.  I have read the manual over and over and each time I learn a bit more. Thank you for writing a clear easy to understand manual.  The troubleshooting chart, BOM, schematics and theory of operation are invaluable.  You certainly won't find this level of detail anymore today in any handheld meter.

My non working IBM 8060A was due to several bad capacitors.  Not really surprising given the IBM 8060A is probably 25 years or older. 

Modemhead found bad capacitors on his too and documented the whole troubleshooting process at

http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-8060a-repair/ (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-8060a-repair/)

Other than the capacitors, the 8060A seems to hold up very well in terms of reliability and accuracy.

Quote
So the score was Rep 1 (new yacht), hard working engineer who conceived, executed, and delivered the 8060, 0 (and an attaboy). That's when I realized the engineers place in the world.
Without going into details, I have been in the same situation where one year we were the number #1 sales team worldwide.  The Sales Rep got fifteen times (15x) in commi$$ion compen$ation compared to what I (technical) made in salary.  I didn't even get an attaboy.  After that, many technical engineers made the jump to Sales which left with huge holes in the technical department.

I have to give some credit to my Sales Rep though.  I mean, someone, has to take the customer to expensive dinners with fine wine, golfing, trips to HQ followed by more aforementioned activities.

Quote
A little more on the Intersil 7106.
How do you feel about all the $5 or less generic 830 style case multimeters using the 7106/equivalent.  In terms of accuracy, 0.5% on DCV, they seem to hold up well.

Quote
in conclusion, working at Fluke was a great experience and I learned a lot from some really talented engineers. I don't know if I'd be happy there now since they were acquired by Danaher, but it was a great place to work back then.
I feel the same about my former company.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on October 30, 2013, 10:37:02 pm
To retired caps,

At Fluke I worked on the 8020A, 8020B, 8024B, 8026B, 8010A, 8012A, 8920, 8922, and a few miscellaneous projects. I spend a lot of time developing a Digital Readout Power Supply, at the time quite innovative, but Fluke decided that HP (now Agilent) dominated that market and dropped the project. I still have the prototype. BTW, that was the project that was to use the LED version of the 8020 chip, AKA the ICL7107. Then came the 8060, 8062 and the IBM 8060. I left Fluke after the 8060, although I was working on the 77 A/D converter and TRMS converter. But the 77 came out after I left for Wavetek. At Wavetek I developed the model 52 DataMultimeter. Worked well but Wavetek couldn't crack the DMM market. I also contributed on Arbitrary Waveform Generators at Wavetek and was the Engineering Manager of the Function Generator department. After 5 years at Wavetek I saw the writing on the wall that they were going under (that's what happens when you let marketing guys run a tech company and they try to grow by buying companies without managing to keep the key people). Ever since then I design digital weigh scales for a small company MSI (who was just bought by a big scale company, Rice Lake).

Regarding the caps. No doubt those were the electrolytic caps in the 7660 Charge Pump circuit that I used to generate the negative rail for the TRMS converter and the A/D. Aluminum Caps do age, and I wish I could leave them out, but Tant caps there were deemed too expensive. So change those electrolytics and the 8060 will probably work for another 30 years.

Another feature of the 8060 I was proud of was that it was the first DMM to have truly fast continuity. A separate hi speed comparator was added to the A/D silicon expressly for this purpose. It doesn't depend on a conversion. I rate almost all DMMs by hitting the probes together as fast as I can. A fast continuity will beep. I'm surprised how many DMMs designers still don't get how important this is in troubleshooting. I recall the 8024 might have had fairly fast continuity, but it was external to the A/D.

The 8060 had a remarkably long run at Fluke. It was only retired finally in, if I remember correctly, around 1995. I was disappointed they didn't find me for a retirement party.

This has been a fun trip down memory lane. Thanks to all.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on October 31, 2013, 01:15:39 am
I find this absolutely fascinating.  Thanks much for taking the time to post.

As for my previously noted 8060A repair, yes indeed the 7660 charge pump caps were gone, plus some others had effectively destroyed the MAC socket.  The final problem was some current leakage that resulted in a non-zero idle reading that was cured by substituting another MAC chip. Until I got the bright idea to scrub the original MAC with IPA, after which it also worked perfectly.

I recently acquired my second 8060A.  A simple cleaning of the elastomeric connectors brought the unit back to life.  Calibration still spot on.  A very nice instrument.

BTW, other than the electrolytic caps, it seems the other most common defect is missing buttons.  Somebody was selling them on eBay recently for $6 apiece!

My question: Did Fluke originate the side push-button/angled-display handheld design?  There seem to be quite a few from the era with a curiously similar appearance.  Weston comes to mind.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: BravoV on October 31, 2013, 01:22:53 am
drtaylor, please, post few photos of those never released prototypes at the DMM collection thread here -> Show your Multimeter! (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/show-your-multimeter!/) , it will be very unique entry there.  :-+
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Napalm2002 on October 31, 2013, 01:25:17 am
Great info and story's. I
Would very much like a blue case to an 8060a if u have one! Got any more trivia in there? ...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Vgkid on October 31, 2013, 02:25:42 am
Dr. Taylor:
Were you involved with the 892x series thermal rms meters?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: mamalala on October 31, 2013, 02:34:16 am
drtaylor,

i'm wondering if you know anything about the 8502A? I have one here that i am restoring. One thing that is missing from the service manual is the schematic of the 04 option, the Cal.-Memory. While it is mentioned in the index, the pages are simply missing. Maybe you have any idea where they could be found?

Greetings,

Chris
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on October 31, 2013, 05:53:46 am
I left Fluke after the 8060, although I was working on the 77 A/D converter and TRMS converter. But the 77 came out after I left for Wavetek.

Another feature of the 8060 I was proud of was that it was the first DMM to have truly fast continuity.
There were some huge changes from the 8xxx to the 7x series.  Namely, 2000 hour battery life  :-+, autoranging with rotary knob switch and rubber holster.  However, none of the original 70 series has fast continuity.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on October 31, 2013, 05:57:24 am
Dr. Taylor:
Were you involved with the 892x series thermal rms meters?
Yes, I was a team member on that one. I designed some of the options and ran most of the design testing. It was discrete opamps driving a Fluke developed thermal sensor that was a great TRMS converter capable of large crest factor readings. The Senior Engineer that designed that discrete op amp taught me so much. It was really an impressive piece of engineering. It strikes me as kind of funny now because you can buy off the shelf op amps much faster, but at the time, the only way to get the bandwidth was with discrete circuits. We did funny things like sticking two leads in the same hole to reduce lead inductance. It had an interesting anti-log circuit on the DC side of the sensor to try to improve the settling time. I have a prototype 8922 in my garage. Haven't fired it up for years. One thing that is interesting is the dB conversion was handled by a custom chip, not a microcontroller. That was actually the last non-microcontroled instrument I worked on as I went on the 8060 after the 8920 series came out.

One interesting thing about that development was the enclosure. An industrial designer at Fluke came up with an interlocking design and we were told that all bench instruments had to go into them. There were 3 heights available. Anyway, the industrial designer didn't provide for any ventilation, so you had to hang a heat sink out the back just to cool things. The 8920 went into that enclosure. Also I had designed that prototype Power Supply I mentioned in an earlier post into that enclosure too and had such a huge heat sink on the back so there was barely room for the AC jack.

To Chris (mamalala), I'm sorry, I had nothing to do with the 8502, actually a different business unit. So I have no documentation on it. I was in the handheld BU most of my 8 years at Fluke. I do know that cal memory tended to be battery backed CMOS SRAM and I wouldn't think it would be complicated. But the SRAM used is probably no longer available.

To Napalm2002, This weekend I'll see if it survived my wife's purges. At one time I had a box of parts, enough to build several 8060s and I had IBM color cases. So if I do, we can work something out.

To Modemhead, As far as I know, the 8020 was the first with that approach. Fluke stuck to their guns with the side pushbuttons for many years, the 8060 being the final DMM in that form factor. It was the competitive Beckman line of DMMs that made Fluke switch to a rotary. It was considered more elegant. It certainly was better sealed.

To all: I'll check this weekend for what parts I have that would be useful for restorations. I mostly have parts left over from the development of the 8060. But I also have a few 8020 family parts. I may be willing to part with an 8060 or two.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: kayvee on October 31, 2013, 06:13:16 am
drtaylor

Thanks for sharing your stories, all very interesting.

I have the same 8020A which was issued to me as a shiny new piece of kit, at first company I worked with, as my portable DMM.

We also had a few 8060's scattered throughout the lab.  When I left the company after 10 years they gifted it to me, and I still haul it out from time to time, which brings back those early days.

Okay, an LCD change or two over the years, but it still works like day 1.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on October 31, 2013, 11:24:05 am
I have many Fluke DMMs that are gathering dust, and I wonder if you'd like them for your DMM collection?

Umm, hell yes!  :-+
That would make one hell of a mailbag.
How much would the postage cost though?, what's the weight of this multimeter bonanza?
Thanks
Dave.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on October 31, 2013, 11:28:00 am
Somewhere I have the original hand drawn schematic of the 8060

That MUST be found and scanned in!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Napalm2002 on November 01, 2013, 01:13:32 am
dryaylor

That would be great. Hell I would very much like you to sign the back of the case. My kind of autographed baseball card but better!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rsjsouza on November 01, 2013, 02:19:10 am
Dr Taylor, thank you for designing such beautiful equipment. In early 80's my dad and I used to drool over the 8020A's advertisements in the brazilian electronic magazines, but back in the day anything imported was way too expensive for simple hobbyists like us. Last year I was able to buy a 8020A with only two missing buttons (nicely supplied by Mr. Excavatoree) and gave it to my father - after 30+ years it is still incredibly precise and stable. It is my dad's main multimeter (he finally replaced his analog ICE).
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: echen1024 on November 01, 2013, 02:39:49 am
Do you have an 8060 I could possibly buy from you? I love those old Fluke multimeters. My dad used one in college, and apparently, they had "destroy the fluke" contests with things such as overloads, shorts, and high voltage down the batt terminals. They would always spring back to life after a little fixing..
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on November 01, 2013, 02:49:52 am
To rsjsouza, I started at Fluke just as the 8020 was being prototyped. So I cannot claim any credit for that one. I did set up the calibration stations, trained technicians, and worked under the chief Engineer of the 8020, Norm Strong. One thing that Fluke did to new engineers like myself, was make us spend many hours testing the meters while they were in the humidity chamber. Not fun. The 8060 which was a few years later when I had been promoted a few times, was my baby. But like all projects, it was a team effort.

To echen1024, I do have a few 8060 and 8062s in various states. It seems like I could find a ready buyer for them. So after I've done an inventory, I'll let you know.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: grenert on November 01, 2013, 03:42:56 am
I have a list somewhere of 8060 tricks, but one I remember off the top of my head, because I spent a lot of time designing that switch array to do it... If you pop out the two bottom switches, the input is connected directly to the A/D and the 10M divider network is disconnected. Therefore, like far more expensive DMMs, you get near infinite input impedance. Works only on the 200mVdc and 2Vdc ranges of course.
I have stickers on the back of my main 8060 with the "secret" settings :)
I also put together a little Pomona box with a 100M resistor to make a picoamp meter using the high impedance mode as suggested in the manual.  As others have said, that was an unusually thorough manual with great usage suggestions.
You can add me to the list of buyers if you find a spare IBM case and any side buttons.

EDIT:  I think there's a lot of potential here for another Amp Hour guest!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Flump on November 01, 2013, 04:27:32 am
heres my baby's  O0

(http://www.drop22.com/images/flukes.JPG)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Lectricman on November 02, 2013, 09:45:30 pm
Thank you for your hard work in making such a long lasting and perfect audio meter! i collect these things and restore them so a little bit of USA made engineering will live on. (My wife thinks I am a lunatic) My personal 8060 was bought on ebay. It worked just fine but I went ahead and replaced the electrolytics since so many are dying from leakage these days. Here are a few (not all) of my Fluke toys I use to build and repair Tube audio gear.
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q234/texasrockguy/2013-11-02163552_zps09d323d4.jpg) (http://s137.photobucket.com/user/texasrockguy/media/2013-11-02163552_zps09d323d4.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Flump on November 02, 2013, 10:14:37 pm
nice collection Lectricman  O0
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on November 03, 2013, 05:48:37 am
It worked just fine but I went ahead and replaced the electrolytics since so many are dying from leakage these days.
Good call.  All the electrolytic caps that were bad on my 8060A leaked from the bottom.  It is not obvious when looking at them until you physically remove them.

It took a couple of emails, but we convinced another forum member here to remove them and examine them.  Once he did, he discovered they had leaked from the bottom as well.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on November 03, 2013, 08:46:07 pm
Mostly bad news. My wife did indeed toss out my 8060A parts box. I have no parts for anyone, and I'm truly sorry.

I have three 8060A's and 2 8062As all in good physical shape. Only the 8060A that I use at home for sure works. The others haven't been fired up in years. One of the 8060s is a blue IBM style, and one has a regular color case but with an IBM label.

I do have a lot of literature: Three 8060 user guides, one IBM user guide. Also about 30 copies of the "quick start" guide. I do have a copy of the original, not quite the production, schematic. I couldn't find my D size hand drawn schematic. I have copious design notes. I had forgotten how much that 7660 circuit gave me grief. It caused noise on the AC readings as well as false counts on the frequency counter. You can see in the original schematic (scan coming tomorrow), nothing had been done about that yet. An inordinate amount of time was spent on optimizing the PCB and plastic shield to get that 100kHz bandwidth.

As far as other Fluke oldies I have: D804 (a variant of the 8024) but its LCD is toast and the case is cracked. Good everywhere else so could be parted.  An 8050 4 1/2 digit benchtop. This was pre 8060 and didn't have any of the premium Audio features. I have one 8922 True RMS Voltmeter (with lots of design notes as this was my first extensive engineering project). I was the junior engineer on that one and did all the testing and optimization for the Sr Engineers. I have a rare 8860 5 1/2 digit DMM. I have an 8012 Benchtop, two 8020s, one a 8020A and the other and 8020B. I did find two A/D converters in antistatic foam for the 8020 (and all its derivatives).

Fluke was a player in Frequency counters back then. I managed to obtain two by trading people in other business units out of my hard model collection of 8060s. Those things were like gold back then. I have a 7220 125 MHz Freq counter with a 1GHz prescaler option. I also have a 7260 Universal Counter Timer (125MHz).

Other interesting stuff I found: The original announcement article published in Electronics Magazine under my byline. This is in good shape and I'll scan it for all you 8060 buffs. I also have two hand drawn pictures of 8060 concepts. One shows a much changed LCD that didn't come to fruition. The other shows a concept using two slide switches on the side. I was really gung ho on that one, but it was rejected as too radical. Also you can see it had a 10A input which didn't make it into the 8060. I'll scan these documents in and post them here tomorrow.

I also have User guides for all of the above units, so if anyone is missing a manual for their vintage Fluke DMM, drop me a line and I'll see if I have one. I found a maintenance manual for the 8020 as well.

Again, I'm sorry I can't deliver on parts for 8060s. I'm sure my wife was convinced my old Fluke stuff was junk. I tore my garage apart looking for it, but other than the complete meters listed above, it is gone. What's really sad is I had a complete box of all parts to make 10 or so 8060s with cases, LCDs, blank circuit boards, molded shields, custom switch arrays. etc. So sad.  My wife and I had a bit of a row when I accused her of tossing them. Oh well, life goes on.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: echen1024 on November 03, 2013, 10:25:12 pm
Ugh. The wife.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Retep on November 03, 2013, 11:16:37 pm
Another feature of the 8060 I was proud of was that it was the first DMM to have truly fast continuity. A separate hi speed comparator was added to the A/D silicon expressly for this purpose. It doesn't depend on a conversion. I rate almost all DMMs by hitting the probes together as fast as I can. A fast continuity will beep. I'm surprised how many DMMs designers still don't get how important this is in troubleshooting.
Indeed. I always wonder why so many DMMs have such a slow continuity beeper. I mean, how hard can it be to get this right? The dirt cheap Hung Chang analog meter I got when I was 10 years old (and that is longer ago than I'd like to admit) had an instant continuity beeper, as does my 25 year old (also low end) Metex DMM. I admit those meters didn't have a latched continuity beeper, but I'd rather have an instant scratchy beep, than a latched beep that is 0.5 second late. A slow continuity beep is as far as I'm concerned close to useless. A 0.1 second delay I'm willing to tolerate, but if it is many times more than that they might as well leave the beeper out.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on November 04, 2013, 01:57:16 am
To Retep: Yes, the fast stretched pulse continuity detector, a must. I use the continuity in the 8060A all the time to check for shorts. On a large connector, you can place one probe on ground, and then swipe the other probe down every pin in under a second. The 8060 will detect a short that fast. In hindsight, I should have had that speed spec on the spec's published for the 8060. Perhaps, because I didn't, competitors didn't pick up on that.

I also found my original typed calibration procedure for the 8060 and 8062. I'll add that to all the scanning I'm doing tomorrow.

I mentioned old manuals, I have them for almost every DMM Fluke ever made up until 1985. I also have maintenance guides for a few. I suppose when DMMs got so cheap, spending time on maintenance guides was no longer worth it.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: kxenos on November 04, 2013, 02:16:08 am
drtaylor, you' re a true Jewell in this forum. Thank you for your work!  :-+
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Vgkid on November 04, 2013, 03:01:49 am
I assume the frequency counters you are reffering to are the ones in the plastic 2patt lunchbox design, unlike the 195x series ones. Referencing the earlier hf thermal converters, they are a really interesting bit of kit.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on November 04, 2013, 03:24:21 am
I assume the frequency counters you are reffering to are the ones in the plastic 2patt lunchbox design, unlike the 195x series ones. Referencing the earlier hf thermal converters, they are a really interesting bit of kit.
It's funny you call that the lunchbox design, I know what you mean. The case series had a name which eludes me now, but I know is started with "Portable". Yes, I had the fortune of being on the team that designed the first product in that case, the 8920 True RMS Meter. That's when we discovered the thermal problems. The two Freq Counters I have are in the same package as you surmised, which was the medium size. They were designed to clip together to make a little stack. Three sizes were possible. I also have a systems DMM in the tallest package. I designed  a remote display into the short package, which was never produced. I don't think Fluke ended up with any products in the short version. Then there was my ill fated power supply design. That it was dropped was probably a blessing as getting the power high enough would have definitely caused a heat problem. I'll take a picture of that power supply and post it. It's definitely one of a kind.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: lowimpedance on November 04, 2013, 05:20:44 am
DrTaylor
 My old grey matter was wrong with actually trying the 7106 in the 8012a , must have just contemplated the idea long ago after deciding it was the same as the FLUKE chip !!. And to prove it I dug out an old 8010a and swapped the A/D with a 7106 and no it did not work  ::). Now its got me thinking if It could be made to work. (not that I need to bother!).
 I was going to ask about the 8050a , but I see it predated the 8060a, any similarity or lessons from the 8050 to the 8060 or completely different?.
As has been said by others these stories of yours give interesting hints to what happened behind the scenes. There is a ready audience for these types of reminisces.
 Thanks for taking the time to share.
 
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on November 04, 2013, 05:22:24 pm
8060 Documentation:

Copy of original schematic. This did not survive to production as I had to modify the 7660 circuit due to noise. But it is mostly intact to what ended up as the final schematic, which can be found in 8060 Manuals. It's funny now that I laboriously hand drew all those schematic symbols, some with a template. I got a lot of flak about only using a single squiggle for resistors, but I thought the meaning was just as clear.

Release article published in Electronics Magazine. This had some editing errors. The very last paragraph talks about Teflon Resistors which don't exist. Should read NPO Ceramic Caps and Teflon Trimmer caps. I think there are other minor errors. The editor took the text I wrote and "improved" it for publication without additional proof reading.

Cal Procedures for the 8060 and 8062 used by production. Written by yours truly.

My original concept sketches for the 8060. The earlier one proposed a dual slide switch on the side, but was deemed too radical a change from the 8020 series. The second was the one I did most of the design on and only at the last instance was the functionality changed. You can see a quite complex LCD in this, but the SM-4 couldn't drive that many segments at duplex.

I hope this proves interesting for aficionados  of old Fluke meters. My design process has always been design the front panel and define the feature set first, then see if you can come up with electronics that support it. That process I still follow today.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on November 04, 2013, 06:10:29 pm
DrTaylor
 My old grey matter was wrong with actually trying the 7106 in the 8012a , must have just contemplated the idea long ago after deciding it was the same as the FLUKE chip !!. And to prove it I dug out an old 8010a and swapped the A/D with a 7106 and no it did not work  ::). Now its got me thinking if It could be made to work. (not that I need to bother!).
 I was going to ask about the 8050a , but I see it predated the 8060a, any similarity or lessons from the 8050 to the 8060 or completely different?.
As has been said by others these stories of yours give interesting hints to what happened behind the scenes. There is a ready audience for these types of reminisces.
 Thanks for taking the time to share.
lowiimpedance - I didn't think the 7106 would work. The 429100 chip has a line that electronically switches the range from 200mV to 2VFS. You can set up a 7106 for either one or the other, but not both. I suppose with a huge kludge circuit, you could add circuitry to change the analog components to do the switch, but it would be fraught with gotchas.
I only had peripheral contact with the 8050. It used a discrete analog dual slope converter with a custom controller IC. Getting that circuit working well was a trial for the designer. So the 8050 was still a dumb design, no software, and therefore only slightly related to the 8060. I remember studying its circuitry carefully while designing the 8060. I knew the 8050 input design would never support wideband AC readings, so I pretty much went my own way on the input structure of the 8060.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on November 04, 2013, 06:37:05 pm
Prototype of never released Fluke Power Supply:

This was to be one of the first Power Supplies with a digital readout. It used the Fluke version of the ICL7107 which Fluke never used in a production unit. The design was just a concept...the next task was to add constant current control, but it never got that far. I also had a design that would have used the 8060 MAC and a 4-bit controller to allow programmable VI settings. I was pretty bummed it got canned due to concern that we couldn't crack the power supply market. But I was relieved that I didn't have to design into that case again. Industrial Designer madness...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Lightages on November 04, 2013, 06:42:18 pm
Thank you very much for your interesting posts and history.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on November 04, 2013, 07:14:13 pm
Improved scan - I saw that the PDF of the early concept wasn't readable. I did a little photoshop on it.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Kryoclasm on November 05, 2013, 01:36:51 am
@drtaylor

Thank you very much for this information and images, most of us here are multimeter geeks and we appreciate what you have been able to tell us. :-+

Also it is awesome being able to learn about what it was like designing the equipment that revolutionized the electronics world.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: vindoline on November 05, 2013, 04:48:45 am
drtaylor, I'd like to add my voice to the others that have thanked you for producing such a great piece of equipment. I've had my 8060A since the mid 80's and it's performed flawlessly for almost 30 years. A while back I was worried that if something happened to my meter I would not be able to get parts to fix it. I bought a second "broken" meter on eBay for a few dollars as a parts donor. It only took about 45 min to restore that meter to near mint working condition. I suppose I should keep my eyes open for another parts donor! I'm afraid the eBay prices may go up soon though! Enjoy all the praise, you earned it.

John Q
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on November 05, 2013, 06:59:09 am
Release article published in Electronics Magazine.
I started reading your article, but quickly realized that I will need several passes to comprehend it.  Right now, my level of understanding it is like "see spot run".   :-DD 

Nonetheless, it is a very interesting read and I appreciate you scanning it.

Do you by chance have the 6 page technical analysis of Fluke 8020 in Electronics magazine as well?  I asked about it here

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/looking-for-6-page-technical-analysis-in-electronics-magazine-of-fluke-8020/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/looking-for-6-page-technical-analysis-in-electronics-magazine-of-fluke-8020/)

Is there a chance that the Technology at Work article written by Fluke HQ is wrong when they mention the 8020 and it is really the 8060A article that you scanned?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on November 05, 2013, 01:52:12 pm
Yes, thanks much for including the article scan.  I too will have to read it more than once, but I love it when someone explains in detail how something works.  Especially when it clears up mysteries after having tried to figure it out myself.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on November 05, 2013, 05:22:32 pm
8060 Documentation:

Copy of original schematic. This did not survive to production as I had to modify the 7660 circuit due to noise. But it is mostly intact to what ended up as the final schematic, which can be found in 8060 Manuals. It's funny now that I laboriously hand drew all those schematic symbols, some with a template. I got a lot of flak about only using a single squiggle for resistors, but I thought the meaning was just as clear.

Release article published in Electronics Magazine. This had some editing errors. The very last paragraph talks about Teflon Resistors which don't exist. Should read NPO Ceramic Caps and Teflon Trimmer caps. I think there are other minor errors. The editor took the text I wrote and "improved" it for publication without additional proof reading.

Cal Procedures for the 8060 and 8062 used by production. Written by yours truly.

My original concept sketches for the 8060. The earlier one proposed a dual slide switch on the side, but was deemed too radical a change from the 8020 series. The second was the one I did most of the design on and only at the last instance was the functionality changed. You can see a quite complex LCD in this, but the SM-4 couldn't drive that many segments at duplex.

I hope this proves interesting for aficionados  of old Fluke meters. My design process has always been design the front panel and define the feature set first, then see if you can come up with electronics that support it. That process I still follow today.

DrTaylor,

thank you for sharing, just love hand drawn schematics..

I've just picked out old FLUKE schematics of the 332B and the 845AR, and they also as if they were drawn by hand.

Was FLUKEs philosophy of that time, perhaps?

Frank
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on November 05, 2013, 05:51:46 pm

DrTaylor,
thank you for sharing, just love hand drawn schematics..
I've just picked out old FLUKE schematics of the 332B and the 845AR, and they also as if they were drawn by hand.
Was FLUKEs philosophy of that time, perhaps?

Frank

Frank, This was the early 80s. Everything was done by hand. At Fluke the Engineer would design on paper, I used 11X17 graph paper, and when Fluke wanted to turn it into final schematics, we would give it to a draftsman to beautify. My editing tool was an eraser. Fluke was very adamant about keeping a design notebook due to patent and lawsuit protection.

In 1984 Computer tools were scarce, expensive and required a lot of training. Fluke was just beginning to use them when I left. The 8020 through 8060 PCB designs were hand taped 4 up on Mylar. Probably the most advanced tool I used was a spreadsheet to perform error analysis. I also used a PDP11 based word processor. WYSI NOT WYG. My trusty HP11C was used for all calculations. It's still functional 30 years later and I use it every day. Talk about a great tool! When HP offered new HP15Cs last year, I snapped up one just in case ol' Betsy croaks. The new HP15C doesn't have as nice a feel on the keys as my 30 years old HP11C, but it does work just like the old. But I digress...

The custom IC designs were done on computers, (like the MAC used in the 8060) and were plotted on large pen plotters to check the design. I remember bending over a large light table looking at IC features and working with the IC designer on fine points of design. Quite a different world then. My phone is more powerful than that huge PDP11.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Napalm2002 on November 08, 2013, 02:41:58 am
Awesome info keep it coming dr!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on November 08, 2013, 11:51:51 pm
I noticed in the 8060A manual that the aluminum caps have mfg supply code 89536 which is John Fluke Manufacturing.  Did Fluke make its own brand of caps or just buy them in bulk and put their own part number on them?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on November 09, 2013, 12:10:30 am
@drtaylor, If it is not a trade secret anymore, can you share the budget for your bill of materials?  For example,

$1 for pcb
$2 for molded plastic
$5 for caps
$5 for custom MAC
$5 for transistors
etc

If not, I totally understand.  I'm asking because I saw a comment on youtube that claims the Fluke 87V has a $6 BOM??
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on November 09, 2013, 12:29:51 am
I noticed in the 8060A manual that the aluminum caps have mfg supply code 89536 which is John Fluke Manufacturing.  Did Fluke make its own brand of caps or just buy them in bulk and put their own part number on them?
I originally spec'd in those parts from Panasonic, if I recall correctly. They were low leakage for aluminums which was a fairly new thing back then. Too bad they weren't low spewage. But they were standard off the shelf parts when I first designed them in. Fluke purchasing no doubt made a huge buy and had them custom marked. From who I don't know, but I'd guess it was Panasonic. My units all have the original off the shelf caps on them.

In another topic, I've been asked about the "new RMS converter" that went into 8060s after I had left Fluke. My understanding is that Motorola no longer wanted to make the Fluke custom RMS converter and Fluke made a last time buy that was supposed to cover the remaining year or so of production. Because the 8060 was still quite popular, someone at Fluke had to make a subcircuit using the Analog Devices TRMS chips with additional components the original unit did not require. I had nothing to do with that circuit, and I can only assume it works as well as the single chip approach did. I personally have never seen one. I only have the schematic that was published on EEVBLOG and other locations.

I had a call from Norm Strong around 1987 who wanted to ask me about design aspects of the components around the TRMS converter. I remember kind of laughing with him because he actually designed the Silicon. I said "com'on Norm, you're the one who helped me optimize it for wide bandwidth. How am I supposed to remember?" I told him to check my design book, and I never heard from him again. Only much later did I realize that I had my design book, not having left it at Fluke when I left. It must have been some time after that that the Analog Devices part went in as a module. It had to have increased the price significantly.

Someone told me recently that they were still selling new 8060s as recently as 1998. Does anyone have confirmation of that? If true the production run of 8060s went from 1982 to 1998, over 16 years. I wonder if any other DMM had such a long reign.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on November 09, 2013, 12:48:00 am
@drtaylor, If it is not a trade secret anymore, can you share the budget for your bill of materials? 
I might have had that information long ago, but no longer. But the precision divider from Caddock cost more than $6 all by itself. The gang switches weren't cheap and might have been the single most expensive part, and the LCD was over $4. I'm not sure if they even knew accurately what the MAC cost. If they amortized Fluke Labs into the cost, they cost thousands each (LOL), at least at first. The TRMS converter was around $3.

The main complaint I got from FLuke management was that the meter was too expensive. I admit I was on a bender to get my perfect audio DMM and didn't really try to make the cheapest thing I could. The 8062 only came into existence because some marketing wonk was convinced they would sell a lot better at a lower price. By taking out dB and freq counting with little or no parts cost savings, the 8062 was really a loss leader. You can turn any 8062 into an 8060 if you know what to do (and I do). But unless you can find a case with the other two holes and figure out how to get the other two elastomeric switches, it won't be pretty. Having a 4 layer board in a handheld was also a first at the time. I took advantage of the inner layers to bury high impedance traces and fully protect them from humidity. Getting of subject...suffice to say, that it probably totaled somewhere in the range of 80-100 dollars in parts and labor which is why it had to sell for $349.95 to allow those salesmen their rich cut.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 09, 2013, 02:55:33 am
Hi group,
 here are some pictures of a Fluke 8022A/AF. I believe that the 8022A/AF is a military version of the 8022A. One of the obvious differences is the voltage to dB table on the case.
Despite being about thirty years old it works fine.

Outside:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=66532;image)


Inside showing the flexible shield:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=66534;image)


Component side of the board:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=66536;image)

Solder side of the board:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=66538;image)




Jay_Diddy_B
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on November 09, 2013, 04:42:39 am
Someone told me recently that they were still selling new 8060s as recently as 1998. Does anyone have confirmation of that? If true the production run of 8060s went from 1982 to 1998, over 16 years. I wonder if any other DMM had such a long reign.
Radio Shack catalog from 2001 shows the 8060A for sale at $499 MSRP.  8062A had a $419 MSRP.  See

http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/html/2001-b/h244.html (http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/html/2001-b/h244.html)

Fluke 27 is still advertised in same 2001 catalog, but I haven't done any research on when the 27 was first made yet.

http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/html/2001-b/h246.html (http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/html/2001-b/h246.html)

27 had a $349 MSRP.

Both models don't show up in the 2002 catalog, but still could have been sold as Radio Shack may have decided to concentrate on their own brand name multimeters?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Robomeds on November 09, 2013, 02:44:46 pm
First, I would like to thank everyone for an all around interesting read!

Second, I have a question about the 87 series vs the 8060 series.  At my first job the hand helds were a mix of 83s, 87s and 80x0 series meters.  I had what I think was a 2nd gen 83.  Anyway I didn't know much about Fluke at the time.  How did the 87 series compare to the 8060?  Was it meant to be the replacement?  I looks like the 8060's base DC accuracy was unmatched until Fluke came out with the 87-IV.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on November 09, 2013, 11:36:52 pm
Hello Mr. David Ryan Taylor - I have a mail from Fluke the Netherlands confirming  that they ceased production of the 8060A in 2001 and ceased production  of spare parts in 2005.

Hopefully you will enjoy this news :-)

IMHO one of the finest DMMs ever made ... (I have many units in my Fluke vintage lab)
gazelle, Thanks so much for the report. I definitely enjoyed that news. Your comment and the comment from retiredcaps confirms the 8060A was in production until 2001. So the 8060A lasted almost 20 years in production! Gotta be a record.
Also thanks for the compliment. As I said, I just wanted a great meter to use with my audio gear. The feature set and performance hit the mark.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on November 10, 2013, 12:11:47 am
Gazelle,

Thanks again for your post. I thought I'd answer your email on the forum as it might be interesting to others. To answer your questions: 1) Regarding a label over a shield screw - I can't be certain, but it is common practice to place a label over a screw as warranty protection. To remove the label shows tampering with the circuitry or calibration, and thus voids the warranty. Just a guess. 2) Regarding European produced 8060As - The 8060 was mostly built in Everett Washington. Fluke has their own plastic molding capability and many other vertically integrated technologies. In order to save export costs, 8060A raw parts such as plastic, circuit boards, switches, custom chips, all produced or controlled at Fluke, were shipped to Tilburg. Final assembly, test and calibration were then performed there. This is also a common practice to allow US products to be competitive in spite of tariffs and import fees. It technically was produced (assembled) in Europe.

A little known fact is in early 83, Fluke set up a production facility in Bejing China. A truly rare find would be to find a Chinese produced 8060A. Again, the unit was supplied in kit form, only final assembly was performed. Fluke had to get permission from the US State Department to sell to China, which was just opening up to US markets.

The 8060 was truly international. This was new for Fluke back in the 80s. Now common including models not even intended for the US market.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Napalm2002 on November 10, 2013, 04:08:15 pm
Now if I can only find a blue cased 8060a. I gotta have one. It's a sickness!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on November 10, 2013, 05:46:03 pm
I haven't seen the 8060A with the yellow colored manual, white sticker serial number and screw on battery cover. 

NOS, good luck to interested bidders.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131038250294 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/131038250294)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: gizmoco on November 10, 2013, 07:49:19 pm
"I haven't seen the 8060A with the yellow colored manual, white sticker serial number and screw on battery cover. "

I have one just like it. It's also NOS.

When comparing it to my 3 other 8060A's (well, 4 more if you count the one that doesn't work) I noticed that the later model unit has a different display with larger numerals. Nice.....
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: gizmoco on November 10, 2013, 07:51:43 pm
"My collection of 8060A and 8062A DMMs in my Vintage LAB."

Flukes are additive. I'm up to 32 of them.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on November 10, 2013, 09:35:10 pm
I noticed that the later model unit has a different display with larger numerals. Nice.....
Can you post a picture of the two lcd displays side by side?  I would like to see if the font changed and how much bigger the numbers are.

Do you have 32 806x?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: gizmoco on November 10, 2013, 11:03:25 pm
"Do you have 32 806x?"

No, a variety including a few bench meters. I usually run into 3 or 4 great deals a year at garage sales or hamfests. Most recently I bought a 77 and an 8062A for $15 each at a hamfest. Best deal was a 333 for $2 at a garage sale complete with soft case in like new condition. How can you pass on a deal like that even if you have too many meters?

"Can you post a picture of the two lcd displays side by side?"

I'd be happy to but it may be a while. My wife is having health issues so I'm spending a lot of time at the hospital.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: lowimpedance on November 11, 2013, 12:18:18 am
You can turn any 8062 into an 8060 if you know what to do (and I do). But unless you can find a case with the other two holes and figure out how to get the other two elastomeric switches, it won't be pretty.
drtaylor
 I was curious enough to have another peek inside my 8062a  to see what was 'left in' to simplify manufacture between the two versions.
Last time I had it apart I recall that the top cover had the moulding for two more buttons. The top casing does indeed have the positions for the buttons and the holes are just covered by the label, however the switch/LCD PCB only has the two switch pads etched. So there was two PCB versions, one for 8060a and another for the 8062a with only two buttons it seems.
 
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Excavatoree on November 11, 2013, 09:08:24 pm
Someone told me recently that they were still selling new 8060s as recently as 1998. Does anyone have confirmation of that? If true the production run of 8060s went from 1982 to 1998, over 16 years. I wonder if any other DMM had such a long reign.
Radio Shack catalog from 2001 shows the 8060A for sale at $499 MSRP.  8062A had a $419 MSRP.  See

http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/html/2001-b/h244.html (http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/html/2001-b/h244.html)

Fluke 27 is still advertised in same 2001 catalog, but I haven't done any research on when the 27 was first made yet.

http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/html/2001-b/h246.html (http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/html/2001-b/h246.html)

27 had a $349 MSRP.

Both models don't show up in the 2002 catalog, but still could have been sold as Radio Shack may have decided to concentrate on their own brand name multimeters?


Here's a section of a 1996 catalog showing the 8060 series, but the picture is of an 8062.  It's a color catalog, so I'll include it if anyone is interested.

I've got the two page section scanned that includes the original 80 series, and the Model 45 Bench DMM.  It ended up as a 15 MB .PDF, so I can't attach it.   I also have the two pages of the 70 series II meters.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bance on November 12, 2013, 07:09:31 pm
From what I've read of this thread, it's mostly focused on hand-held meters, but given the thread title I don't think I'm too far off topic.

I've recently bought a 8800A bench meter, but it has suffered the ravages of time, and is missing a couple of switches. They are the piano type switches, and I'm missing two, the power switch (I believe it should be green in colour) and the resistance mode switch (Putty grey in colour.)

Anyhow the question I'd like to ask is if anyone knows of a source for these switches. I've located this http://qservice.tv/vpasp/shopexd.asp?id=10153 (http://qservice.tv/vpasp/shopexd.asp?id=10153) at "Q-services" which looks very similar to the specified part, but has a different part No.

 I think that if a source is not available, I could just order two of these and perhaps swap the auto-range switch for the resistance mode,of course, that's assuming they are compatible switches!

Thanks in advance,

Steve.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: SLJ on November 12, 2013, 07:36:44 pm
I might ave a couple of these for parts.  I'll check.  I might have sold them at a meet, don't remember but I'll check later today as they would be out in the other shop if I have them.   Put your general location in your profile so we know about where you are located.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: edavid on November 12, 2013, 08:02:57 pm
I might ave a couple of these for parts.  I'll check.  I might have sold them at a meet, don't remember but I'll check later today as they would be out in the other shop if I have them.   Put your general location in your profile so we know about where you are located.

He has a Thurlby DMM and he wrote "colour" -> I'll bet he's in the UK.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Mr Simpleton on November 12, 2013, 08:29:39 pm
I'll bet he's in the UK.
I'll bet you're right  :-DD
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/71055000/jpg/_71055488_71055487.jpg)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-24906040 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-24906040)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: SLJ on November 12, 2013, 08:29:59 pm
I might ave a couple of these for parts.  I'll check.  I might have sold them at a meet, don't remember but I'll check later today as they would be out in the other shop if I have them.   Put your general location in your profile so we know about where you are located.

He has a Thurlby DMM and he wrote "colour" -> I'll bet he's in the UK.

He types pretty good English for being in the UK...  :-DD
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bance on November 12, 2013, 08:57:38 pm
Yes, I am in the UK, London in fact. :scared:

I'm pleased that I amused you with the "correct " spelling of color! :-DD

@Mr Simpleton, I think maybe Banksy has been at that standard.

@SLJ if you have these Items, I would be most appreciative, advise me of the pecuniary arrangements you prefer.

Thanks, Steve

PS. I'm first generation Irish, hence the good English!!!

Hey look post number five, I'm eligible for the next freebee draw! Wahooo!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Napalm2002 on November 13, 2013, 01:30:38 am
I have a few 80 series buttons for the handheld dmms I don't know if they would work...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bance on November 13, 2013, 10:06:20 am
Thanks Napalm2002,

I have a 8022B the buttons on that are push/slider type, are all 80 series the same?

If so they won't fit the bill. You can see the type I need from the picture I posted above (it's the lower meter!)

Thanks once again, Steve.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: SLJ on November 13, 2013, 12:59:15 pm
I had three of them, all dead but complete mechanically.  Unfortunately I must have sold them for parts already as they aren't on the shelf where I would keep them.  Should have at least kept one for myself as those switches were not the best design and spares would have come in handy.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bance on November 13, 2013, 01:33:08 pm
OK, thanks for taking the time to look SLJ.

I suppose I'll get those parts from "Q-Services", just hope they fit!

Steve.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Dave Pye on November 13, 2013, 04:38:11 pm
 :-DMM :-+ :-+
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: turbo! on November 13, 2013, 05:27:51 pm
How are drifts on critical components on older ones compared to new ones?  Older models allowed you to calibrate by using a source kinda close to the book spec, then adjusting it to match a known instrument of higher tolerance, but the new automated production friendly digital calibration units are impossible to calibrate without having a calibrator that puts out the specified values. 

A meter without a calibration of known certainty is about as good as a ruler without graduations...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Napalm2002 on November 23, 2013, 04:53:42 am
Dr Taylor
Any luck on your IBM 8060a?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on November 23, 2013, 05:44:01 am
Dr Taylor
Any luck on your IBM 8060a?
I have been too busy to test my IBM 8060, so I have not put it up for sale yet. I have a full time day job, I do contract design at night, and play rock n roll on the weekend. So I apologize. I'm almost done with my current G-job and will work in checking and if necessary, repairing the Blue 8060. So sorry for the delay.

DRT
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Napalm2002 on November 26, 2013, 04:24:37 am
Totally understand. I just got married and bought a house so I completely understand!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ElektroQuark on November 26, 2013, 07:44:24 am
Napalm,

You will really understand when you have a couple childrens around you. They are timesuckers.  ;)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Napalm2002 on November 27, 2013, 01:50:19 am
Already there, lol 20 yr old 17 yr old 8yr old and I'm a grampa and I'm only 33!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Marvin on January 04, 2014, 12:48:15 pm
Hi DRT! Thanks for really good information.

There has been recently (for a few years) army surplus Fluke 27/FM (not the usual 27 that Dave did a review and input protection tutorial on) coming to ebay etc. I bought one myself and was just trying to research it (it's not broken, just thinking about how it works etc). As this was produced exclusively for the US Army the schematic is unavailable (I have googled for days). The schematics for the the non FM model (so averaging non-true-rms) 27 are available from Fluke. So this was a long introduction but what interests me (and maybe someone else too) is that the 27/FM has True-RMS feature. And what is even more interesting is that it's not AD636, AD736 or some other Analog Devices true-rms converter but it looks like this: see attached image (image loaned from another forum).

With markings SC77174 that gives no google other results than a Chinese forum where someone just wrote that his 27/FM contains it. And it is clearly manufactured by Motorola.

Your posts about the original 8060 Fluke designed and Motorola produced rms converter chip is the only information about this on the internet! I was trying to find a rms converter chip manufactured by Motorola etc, to no avail until I found this thread!

Could this be the final model that had a true Fluke designed true-rms converter inside?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on January 09, 2014, 05:15:47 am
That is indeed the TRMS converter designed for the 8060. A Fluke Engineer designed and The fab line was, if I remember correctly, Motorolas BiFET. It had to have high performance bipolar transistors for the log-antilog circuitry. If you saw my 8060 initial schematic, it has a block diagram of that chip. I had some more detailed design docs, but it hasn't been seen in years. It's all moot since even Fluke could not get them after Motorola broke into parts.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Marvin on January 09, 2014, 10:00:28 am
Thanks DRT for the answer!

I now dove deeper into google and lo behold - MrModemheads 8060A repair has a nice picture of the original RMS chip and I'll be damned - it is even marked the same!

http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/wp-content/gallery/f8060a_00-4/F8060A_016.JPG (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/wp-content/gallery/f8060a_00-4/F8060A_016.JPG)

So it looks the US Army wanted a true-rms meter and Fluke used the in-house proven but expensive chip even though the 8060A series had already been changed to AD636. The 27/FM is basically identical to the 27 with just the added TRMS chip.

I had a call from Norm Strong around 1987 who wanted to ask me about design aspects of the components around the TRMS converter. I remember kind of laughing with him because he actually designed the Silicon. I said "com'on Norm, you're the one who helped me optimize it for wide bandwidth. How am I supposed to remember?"

I've seen only '87 and '88 date codes on SC77174 chips in 27/FM pictures on forums etc (with '88 being more widely seen, '87 I've see only on one picture). Maybe that is the reason he called you? :D
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Excavatoree on January 09, 2014, 02:07:23 pm
The same IC is in the 8026. .  I suppose it could be a "stripped down" 8060, but it's internals suggest that it is simply an 8020 that has been "souped up" by adding the TRMS capability. 

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ChrisGammell on January 09, 2014, 04:05:55 pm
We've asked Dave Taylor to be on The Amp Hour...and he agreed! He'll be on this week. If you have any questions you'd like us to ask him, let us know.

Forum thread here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/amphour/drtaylor-(eevblog-forum-member)-on-the-show-this-week/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/amphour/drtaylor-(eevblog-forum-member)-on-the-show-this-week/)
Subreddit here: http://www.reddit.com/r/TheAmpHour/comments/1uswuh/this_week_on_the_show_dave_taylor_designer_of_the/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/TheAmpHour/comments/1uswuh/this_week_on_the_show_dave_taylor_designer_of_the/)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on January 09, 2014, 11:48:33 pm
My collection of 8060s along with a first generation 8020 from 1976 and the very first production run 8026A. There are none older in the world as all of these came out of the first hard model runs. This is what we called the first units made by production combined with engineering.

The upper left unit is an IBM version. Upper center is a standard beige 8060A, but I stuck an IBM label on it (and no, I don't have any more, sorry). Upper right is my workhorse unit I've used for 30 years, still in calibration. Lower left was the original 8062 which is just a software limited 8060. Lower center is an 8026A/AA which used the 8060A TRMS chip. However, because it didn't have my frequency enhanced input structure, its bandwidth was significantly lower than the 8060. Last is an original 1976 8020A, the first product I worked on (but had little to do with the design). Just turned it on and it was in spec for DC which is the only precision source I have to test DMMs with.

I plan on selling the IBM unit in the upper left. I am replacing its caps and then it will be ready to go. At one time I had a box of about 40 8060A's all from the hard model run. I don't remember why they couldn't be sold, they were fully functional. It was just Fluke policy to not sell hard model runs. Anyway my boss at the time just said keep 'em. I used to give them away like candy and most went to other engineers and techs at Fluke. The ones you see are all I have left.

I'm looking forward to being on the Amphour on Monday. Stop by and say hi.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on January 10, 2014, 12:41:08 am
More of my old Fluke gear. Of these I only worked extensively on the 8922 Thermal True RMS Voltmeter (and the never released Power Supply). Some of these I obtained from other Fluke Engineers because they all wanted an 8060 in trade. A nice little bartering chip.

I absolutely loved working on the 8920/8922. This was the best education because of the complexity of the analog circuitry. The 8920 had banana jacks and therefore was slightly lower in bandwidth than the BNC input 8922. The 892x used a Fluke designed Thermal RMS chip. This was a sensor only and had to have a lot of circuitry around it.

The Fluke 7260A Counter on top of the 8922 was also mounted in Fluke's PTI (Portable Test Instrumentation) case. This was the medium size. There was one shorter and one taller version. They snap together so you can carry them. I don't know if this ever caught on. As I said in previous posts, getting heat out of it was a bitch. The last picture is the Fluke power supply concept unit. A project that was dropped. On top is possibly the only existing smallest height PTI case. I designed and built a remote display for connection to DMMs. I don't think Fluke ever designed anything into the smaller case, but I could be wrong.

Now where's that 8860?...my wife better not have tossed it!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: lowimpedance on January 10, 2014, 01:05:08 am
I do love the color of the IBM model. I particularly like the 'customized' IBM label on the standard unit, one of a kind i suspect  ;D
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fsck on January 10, 2014, 01:10:09 am
I do love the color of the IBM model. I particularly like the 'customized' IBM label on the standard unit, one of a kind i suspect  ;D

I've never actually seen a blue fluke from that generation. I'm curious if there were others
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on January 10, 2014, 02:48:28 am
I do love the color of the IBM model. I particularly like the 'customized' IBM label on the standard unit, one of a kind i suspect  ;D

I've never actually seen a blue fluke from that generation. I'm curious if there were others

Well, there were 10000 of them sold to IBM. Probably a bunch of them somewhere.

On a different subject, I just found about 20. 429100 chips. This is the Converter used in 8020, 8022, 8010, 8012, 8024, 8026 and probably some I've forgotten about. If you need one to restore a vintage 3.5 digit Fluke DMM, drop me a line. They've been in anti static foam for 30 years, but chances are good they work.

Yay I found my 8860! Almost afraid to apply power. Now where's my variac?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on January 10, 2014, 08:02:15 am
I've never actually seen a blue fluke from that generation. I'm curious if there were others
I have one an IBM blue one thanks to a poorly worded ebay auction title. I don't have any voltage sources at home, but a comparison with a Fluke 87V and 187 shows it spot on or +/- 1mV.   :-+

I also asked someone if they want to try and modify a 8062 into a 8060.

PS. Compiling my list of questions (plural).  Unfortunately, we can't call in like a radio show, but so it is just a 3 way conversation.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on January 10, 2014, 06:56:01 pm
My last Fluke DMM, the 8860A 5-1/2 digit programmable DMM. This device was interesting as it could programmed from a keypad as well as through a GPIB port. It has a plug-in Battery backed SRAM module where the program is stored (a whopping  256 bytes on two 256X4 Intel 5101 SRAMS). You could set up an auto test procedure and run it without a GPIB controller.

This is an example of the tallest PTI case. There was a way to make even taller devices by inserting a mid section. I don't recall any Fluke units that were designed into an expanded PTI case, but the Industrial Designer had high hopes (pun intended).

Ah, I'd almost forgotten about GPIB controllers. Fluke went big time into designing a touch screen GPIB controller. I have a lot of negative comments about that decision and how it was managed, but all GPIB controllers were ultimately doomed by the advent of the PC.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: lowimpedance on January 11, 2014, 08:46:20 am
I also asked someone if they want to try and modify a 8062 into a 8060.
Interesting, I have an 8062 and this unit uses a quite different PCB for the keypad than the 8060 which would make it rather hard to convert without some major hacking. (although IIRC the top case half had the moulding cut outs of the 8060!).
 Would be interested to see any results of such an attempt.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: edavid on January 11, 2014, 06:43:29 pm
My last Fluke DMM, the 8860A 5-1/2 digit programmable DMM.

Nice meter, but why did they decide to leave out the current ranges?

Quote
Ah, I'd almost forgotten about GPIB controllers. Fluke went big time into designing a touch screen GPIB controller. I have a lot of negative comments about that decision and how it was managed, but all GPIB controllers were ultimately doomed by the advent of the PC.

Do you mean the 1720A?  Where did they find those extra-wide (or extra-short) CRTs?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ChrisGammell on January 15, 2014, 05:11:50 am
We had a chance to hear all of Dave's stories on The Amp Hour this week. If you want to hear more about the history of the 8060 (and more!) check out the show: http://www.theamphour.com/180-an-interview-with-dave-taylor-multi-talented-meter-maker/ (http://www.theamphour.com/180-an-interview-with-dave-taylor-multi-talented-meter-maker/)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Marvin on January 15, 2014, 08:53:37 am
Thanks for the interview, it was a really nice one!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on February 03, 2014, 05:28:27 am
This auction just ended with a new old stock (NOS) 8060A going for $356 + $15.85 = $371.85 USD.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/310856956375 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/310856956375)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on February 03, 2014, 06:58:51 am
A lot to pay for a very old design. I wonder if the successful bidder is an EEVBLOG forum reader.

I have a rare Blue IBM 8060A/AA for sale with Blue User Guide. I just haven't figured out the best place to sell it at. Any suggestions? If the buyer cares, I'd be happy to sign it, or I can leave it pristine. I have only been able to test the calibration in DC and ohms. I do not have an accurate AC source, nor access to one. I checked into having it calibrated by my companies usual vendor, and it would cost more than I am willing to pay. So buyer beware, I can only certify that the AC function works on all ranges, but not how accurate it is at all frequencies. Then again, Flukes stay pretty darn accurate anyway. I also plan on selling my one-of-a-kind beige 8060A that has an IBM label. This one needs the caps changed, and I will finish it later this week. Both of these are in excellent condition and look new. This still leaves me with 4 8060s which is enough.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: PA4TIM on February 03, 2014, 08:04:49 am
Allmost 400 dollar for one of the ugliest meters Fluke ever made ? (sorry, my opinion)

The problem with NOS instruments is that if you use them, they are not NOS anymore and loose their value. And so much money only to look at it sounds a bit funny. I have some meters only bought to look at but they were less as 10 bucks and 60-90 years old

He wrote the Fluke was never outside the box before, and he ships it with a fresh battery. So the old battery was dead ?. But did Fluke ship them with batteries . And if so, what does the battery compartment look now after all this time with a bad battery.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Marvin on February 03, 2014, 12:25:05 pm
That NOS is pretty useless - electrolytic capacitors age even when not used. Some capacitor manufacturers have procedures for starting to use electrolytic capacitors that have been on shelves for years by applying really limited current for an hour or so (reforming). The electrolytic caps in that NOS meter might fail with the first poweron!

Quote from: http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/aluminum_app_dne.pdf (http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/aluminum_app_dne.pdf)

Quote
Leakage current of a capacitor increases with long storage times. The aluminium oxide film deteriorates as a function of temperature and time. If used without reconditioning, an abnormally high current will be required to restore the oxide film. This current surge could cause the circuit or the capacitor to fail. Capacitor should be reconditioned by applying rated voltage in series with a 1000 ohm, current limiting resistor for a time period of 30 minutes.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on February 03, 2014, 11:23:35 pm
I have a rare Blue IBM 8060A/AA for sale with Blue User Guide. I just haven't figured out the best place to sell it at. Any suggestions?
There is a Buy/Sell forum here at

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/)

Advertising it for sale on eevblog might attract buyers that have a nostalgia factor and appreciate a signed copy?

The other obvious choice is ebay. You could put something in the description that you were the chief designer and this is your own personal 8060A.  Putting it on ebay might attract buyers from the audio crowd that revere the 8060A.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: akanowitz on February 03, 2014, 11:29:28 pm
Still have an old grey '77 meter on my bench, always grab it before looking at the others..
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Napalm2002 on February 04, 2014, 12:11:27 am
I am chomping at the bit to get a chance at the ibm8060a. Use the forum here if u can. I hope that I can afford it...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Napalm2002 on February 04, 2014, 12:20:48 am
Mr. Taylor do you have any info on a service manual for the 8060a. I just wondered bec I have 3 8060a meters and an 8062. I like to use them and I really don't want them to break and I am stuck not knowing where to go and what to check?   

Thanks

 Mike m
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fsck on February 04, 2014, 12:53:18 am
I've never actually seen a blue fluke from that generation. I'm curious if there were others
I have one an IBM blue one thanks to a poorly worded ebay auction title. I don't have any voltage sources at home, but a comparison with a Fluke 87V and 187 shows it spot on or +/- 1mV.   :-+

I also asked someone if they want to try and modify a 8062 into a 8060.

PS. Compiling my list of questions (plural).  Unfortunately, we can't call in like a radio show, but so it is just a 3 way conversation.


actually, I meant if they were produced in different colours.
I would definitely use a neon pink 8060 just to annoy people and to have an extremely unique meter.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Napalm2002 on February 04, 2014, 01:59:34 am
I've never actually seen a blue fluke from that generation. I'm curious if there were others
I have one an IBM blue one thanks to a poorly worded ebay auction title. I don't have any voltage sources at home, but a comparison with a Fluke 87V and 187 shows it spot on or +/- 1mV.   :-+

I also asked someone if they want to try and modify a 8062 into a 8060.

PS. Compiling my list of questions (plural).  Unfortunately, we can't call in like a radio show, but so it is just a 3 way conversation.


actually, I meant if they were produced in different colours.
I would definitely use a neon pink 8060 just to annoy people and to have an extremely unique meter.

Hell yeah!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on February 04, 2014, 06:20:19 am
Mr. Taylor do you have any info on a service manual for the 8060a.
The manual posted on Fluke's website gives troubleshooting charts, schematics, bill of materials, etc.   :-+

http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/8060a_3vimeng0200.pdf (http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/8060a_3vimeng0200.pdf)

I wish all current publicly accessible Fluke manuals had this much detail.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on February 04, 2014, 03:26:19 pm
Also the original release article has some explanation on how the meter works. I will attach it again here. But the User Guide, written by yours truly has a lot of info on troubleshooting. Pretty much the only thing that goes wrong with 8060s is leaky electrolytic caps and occasionally the silver filled elastomeric conductor needs cleaned on both the PCB contact surface and the elastomer ends. Most of all, keep it clean. Thorough cleaning with IPA and acid brushes is a must!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Napalm2002 on February 04, 2014, 11:25:06 pm
Thank you guys very much!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: linux-works on February 15, 2014, 12:10:54 am
great reading on this thread.  very enjoyable.

while browsing the bay, I found an ibm 8060a and snapped it up.  in very clean condition.  my first fluke in this series.

I grew up in the 80's reading electronics magazines and saw the 8060 style meters in every edition and grew to admire and want one.  I was a kid and could never afford that, but now, many decades later, I can ;)

thanks for the thread and posting the schematics, history, etc!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: SLJ on February 15, 2014, 12:48:48 am
Fluke story this month: The switch to a rotary switch (http://en-us.fluke.com/community/fluke-news-plus/Learning-to-listen-to-customers.html#fbid=i46_ACu5y65)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: saposoft on February 16, 2014, 03:25:19 pm
Dave
Great thread and great interview, loved to hear about those great engineering adventures.
I suppose the spreadsheet on the Apple II you used to do calculation was "Visicalc", been there, done that https://www.eevblog.com/forum/Smileys/default/smiley.gif. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/Smileys/default/smiley.gif.)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Marvin on February 18, 2014, 06:21:04 am
So I bit the bullet and got myself a 8060A from eBay from a seller in Austria. And oh what a score it was - it still has an old calibration "sticker" (it is really more like some print transfer, if I REALLY REALLY wanted I could get it off with elbow grease but as it is not sticky I will let it be, on top of it was a newer sticker that was really sticky and I removed with citrus based sticker residue remover AND it has even a newer 2010 calibration sticker. Someone really loved the meter and took good care of it. Compared it to my 2 years old 87V and it is spot on in 4 and a half digits mode VDC! And it beats the 87V in high frequency AC measurement (measured 100kHz from Der EE DE-5000 LCR meter and 87V was showing already something like 500mV while 8060A displayed 0.6469V that is much closer to what it is on 100/120/1k/10k, on sub 100k modes on the DE-5000 both Fluke meters measure the same test voltage within the spec).  I cracked it open just to verify and without removing the inner shield I could just see that it is one of the original types and has an SC77174 chip with 1987 datecode. But take a look at this, it was NOT Made in USA - it was Made in Holland!

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: particleman on February 18, 2014, 07:10:17 am
My go to DMM is a fluke 8800A I love that meter just got it back from the calibration man and its perfect. I want another one Im always looking on the auction site for a broken on to fix.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: idpromnut on February 18, 2014, 12:29:06 pm
Having heard that these meters are Not Too Bad™, I decided to pick a 8024A and a 8060(IBM edition) up on auction. Can't wait to use them!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: SoundTech-LG on February 18, 2014, 05:28:59 pm
We have many 189's around here, and I love using them. This old 8060A though still works great! Rotary knobs are nicer, but the measurements on this meter are quite accurate.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: vinlove on February 18, 2014, 10:58:25 pm
Hi All

I am a newbie in Electronics, so please excuse my ignorance in the field.

My question about these old DMM is how long will they keep on working accurately and be useful. I mean they are all more than 20 years old, so will they not need recapping if they use any capacitors in the circuit inside these DMM?

Or are they OK in this respect, and will last much longer without having to get serviced? Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 19, 2014, 02:45:23 am

My question about these old DMM is how long will they keep on working accurately and be useful. I mean they are all more than 20 years old, so will they not need recapping if they use any capacitors in the circuit inside these DMM?

Or are they OK in this respect, and will last much longer without having to get serviced?

I can speak from my experience. I believe that my experience is typical based on what other people have written.

1) There are electrolytic capacitors in these meters. And yes the electrolytic capacitors can leak after about 20 years, depending on how the meter was stored.

2) The good news is that most of the time, replacing the capacitors and very careful cleaning of the board. I scrub the board with a small brush and 99% Isopropyl alcohol (IPA).

3) There are also issues with LCD displays. The display can be fuzzy or have bleeding.

4) The other issue is that the zebra strips in the LCD connections may have to be cleaned with IPA and re-assembled.

5) The other issue that I have seen is a shorted zener diode which is parallel with the DC jack / battery. The Zener is to protect from reverse polarity and over-voltage.

So if you are buying one, check for a nice clear LCD display. Check the battery compartment for corrosion.

Remember the HRC fuses are expensive around $10.00.

When they are restored, these meter are remarkably accurate.

[ I had one very tricky repair. At some point in its life it had been overloaded causing failure of the MOVs on the input. This contaminated the board with carbon. You tell this if you set the meter to read the highest ohms range and it doesn't read OL. I had almost given up. Then I cleaned the board in a ultrasonic cleaner for 1 hour at 50C. Then 1 more hour with clean water. I tried the board. This fixed the problem. ]

The performance of the meters did not happen by accident. Fluke engineers, including Dave Taylor the designer of the 8060A, put a tremendous amount of effort into choosing the best components for the application. The protection circuits in these meters is also very good.

I have about 6 8060A, including one of the Blue IBM units. I also have an 8024B.

You should have at least 1.

Jay_Diddy_B
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: vinlove on February 19, 2014, 09:24:25 am
Thank you Jay_Diddy. Great answer.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/Smileys/default/icon_smile_thumbsup.gif (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/Smileys/default/icon_smile_thumbsup.gif)
Would it be better off buying new DMM if one is not prepared or able to restore these old DMMs?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Marvin on February 19, 2014, 09:43:28 am
This was my 4th Fluke - I'd say it's more of an advanced tool today. In general for example the 87V beats it hands down in general use and has more general features like capacitor test and analog graph. The 8060A is nice to do audio stuff as it has dB conversion mode but it is not autoranging, so it's a question of preference. I got the 8060A for audio use, joins the family of my first and the most "useless" made in China Fluke 17B, my second was 87V that has been the most useful. My third is 27/FM that I got for outside use, already put it to use repairing my car. Technically by spec the 8060A is more precise than the 87V but that is 1 year from the calibration - my 8060A was calibrated in 2010 and is still spot on/or a few last counts "different" (I will not say out) comparing it to 2 years old 87V - so I would not be surprised if it is even more precise than 87V. It is not a mandatory tool but it is a nice tool for the money it is going for in eBay.

Just a comparison of VDC on 87V in high precision mode (have to multiply the general precision +digits by 10) where by spec the 8060A is better:
Code: [Select]
87V 3.5 digits 87V 4.5 digits 8060A
600mV 0.1mV ±(0.1% + 1) 200mV 0.01mV ±(0.1% + 10) 200mV 0.01mV ±(0.04% + 2)
6.000V 0.001V ±(0.05% + 1) 2V 0.1mV ±(0.05% + 10) 2V 0.1mV ±(0.04% + 2)
60.00V 0.01V ±(0.05% + 1) 20V 0.001V ±(0.05% + 10) 20V 0.001V ±(0.05% + 2)
600.0V 0.1V ±(0.05% + 1) 200V 0.01V ±(0.05% + 10) 200V 0.01V ±(0.05% + 2)
1000V 1V ±(0.05% + 1) 1000V 0.1V ±(0.05% + 10) 1000V 0.1V ±(0.05% + 2)

And for audio use 8060A has spec until 100kHz measurment, 87V is specced for 20kHz.

I'd say that if you want to go Fluke way on a budget today and don't mind used tools go for the 27/FM as an autoranging and general day to day use and the 8060A for the infrequent precision measurements. If your budget permits go for a brand new 87V or even more expensive ones that have data logging etc.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: vinlove on February 19, 2014, 11:04:38 am
Thank you Marvin.  Great info.

I think the 27/FM is kinda rare, hard to find,  I imagine it would be more expensive too.
Fluke 25 seems easier to find for sale, and going for good price.

Is the 25 good DMM to use?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: idpromnut on February 19, 2014, 01:13:26 pm
Thank you Marvin.  Great info.

I think the 27/FM is kinda rare, hard to find,  I imagine it would be more expensive too.
Fluke 25 seems easier to find for sale, and going for good price.

Is the 25 good DMM to use?

Depending on where you are, the 27/FM is actually very easy to find. Look up realpcola on Ebay (http://www.ebay.ca/sch/realpcola/m.html (http://www.ebay.ca/sch/realpcola/m.html)), they usually have a 27 up (and do a GREAT job of cleaning it up, checking it out, etc) and for usually not too much. I paid about 80$ shipped for each of the units I have.

Note I am in Canada, so the shipping even here is not bad, and to the US it is probably a better deal. Outside of that, you may need to look for a more local dealer.

Disclaimer: I am a VERY satisfied customer of the above Ebay seller and will gladly highly recommend. They also sell 87V and other flukes, just keep an eye out for them.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: vinlove on February 19, 2014, 03:17:12 pm
I see one in US eBay, and it is listed for $350 Buy It Now.   But it is NEW.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fluke-27-Multimeter-/251075396746?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item3a7542848a (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fluke-27-Multimeter-/251075396746?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item3a7542848a)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Marvin on February 19, 2014, 03:29:16 pm
There are a lot of them on sale, just some I found:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLUKE-27-FM-hand-held-digital-Multimeter-DMM-with-leads-clips-and-large-case-/371007738834 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLUKE-27-FM-hand-held-digital-Multimeter-DMM-with-leads-clips-and-large-case-/371007738834)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fluke-27-FM-Digital-Multimeter-80K-High-Voltage-Probe-Leads-2-3-Day-Arrival-/121148564924 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fluke-27-FM-Digital-Multimeter-80K-High-Voltage-Probe-Leads-2-3-Day-Arrival-/121148564924)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: vinlove on February 19, 2014, 03:54:18 pm
How is the Fluke 25? Is it a good DMM for using in general hobby projects and repair of amps and tuners - vintage hifi stuff?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: edavid on February 19, 2014, 04:50:51 pm
I think the 27/FM is kinda rare, hard to find,  I imagine it would be more expensive too.

The 27/FM is very common in the US... zillions of them were sold to the military (AN/PSM-45A, ME-528A), and it seems like they are all on the surplus market now.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Robomeds on February 21, 2014, 03:35:12 am
How is the Fluke 25? Is it a good DMM for using in general hobby projects and repair of amps and tuners - vintage hifi stuff?
The 25 is a good meter in general.  Check out Dave's 27 review.  The difference between the 27 and 25 is the relative and min-max buttons which the 25 lacks.  The 25 otherwise is the same meter and inside the case IS the same meter.  Same guts but two buttons are removed for marketing reasons. 

There are actually 5 meters in the family you might consider
The Fluke 8025A, 8025B, 25, 27, 27FM.  There are also different color versions.  Someone from this forum has a great guide posted on ebay covering these things.  Anyway, the meter Dave tested had a very high contrast display.  The older meters do not.  They are so-so at best. 

The 8025A and 25 are the same meter.  The 8025B and 27 are the same meter.  The 27FM has TRMS AC readings.  All have very good accuracy (0.1%).  All have a somewhat slow continuity check.  All are the size of a brick!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Robomeds on February 21, 2014, 03:45:44 am
$35 for this Fluke 25 seems pretty good (includes leads)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fluke-25-Multimeter-/221371019081?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item338abdaf49 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fluke-25-Multimeter-/221371019081?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item338abdaf49)

For those in the UK
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLUKE-MODEL-25-CASE-AND-ACCESSORIES-/261379481343?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item3cdb6e5eff (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLUKE-MODEL-25-CASE-AND-ACCESSORIES-/261379481343?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item3cdb6e5eff)

No association with sellers.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: vinlove on February 27, 2014, 10:54:21 am
Ended up getting a FLUKE 25.   WOW what a great metre, very smooth and nice.   Huge and substantially built.
I think this will do for all my needs.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Excavatoree on February 27, 2014, 01:06:58 pm
Ended up getting a FLUKE 25.   WOW what a great metre, very smooth and nice.   Huge and substantially built.
I think this will do for all my needs.

Remember, if one Fluke 25 is good, more are better.  Collect the whole set!  8025a, 8025b, 25 and 27 (both in yellow and green, and don't forget the yellow with black decal) as well as the 27/FM!   For extra credit, mix and match to create color combinations Fluke never sold! You can make a yellow 8025a or a  yellow with black decal 27/FM!   Sanity is overrated.  Really.


(My apologies)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: vinlove on February 27, 2014, 05:32:39 pm
Sure, if the price is right why not.  Another cool thing with this FLUKE 25 was the price.   9.99  Bargain of the year.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Excavatoree on February 27, 2014, 06:01:21 pm
Sure, if the price is right why not.  Another cool thing with this FLUKE 25 was the price.  It was £9 
Bargain of the year.

Seriously, they are, in my opinion, the best value in hand held multimeters, provided you are in the US or other area where they are inexpensive, and don't need capacitance, frequency, datalogging, etc.  (These are a bit more expensive in some countries, and not having a needed feature is false economy.)

I use these as 'knock around" meters for working on the car,  washing machine, etc.  I have one at work that I use when I'm crawling on top of a machine and don't want to see if an 87 can stand a 2 meter drop onto hard concrete.   I did drop my 25 onto a bulldozer track from about 1 meter - no problem.  The operator thought I'd just broken my meter.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Robomeds on February 27, 2014, 06:14:12 pm
Ended up getting a FLUKE 25.   WOW what a great metre, very smooth and nice.   Huge and substantially built.
I think this will do for all my needs.
Did you go for the one on ebay?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: vinlove on February 27, 2014, 06:45:20 pm
Sure, if the price is right why not.  Another cool thing with this FLUKE 25 was the price.  It was £9 
Bargain of the year.

Seriously, they are, in my opinion, the best value in hand held multimeters, provided you are in the US or other area where they are inexpensive, and don't need capacitance, frequency, datalogging, etc.  (These are a bit more expensive in some countries, and not having a needed feature is false economy.)

I use these as 'knock around" meters for working on the car,  washing machine, etc.  I have one at work that I use when I'm crawling on top of a machine and don't want to see if an 87 can stand a 2 meter drop onto hard concrete.   I did drop my 25 onto a bulldozer track from about 1 meter - no problem.  The operator thought I'd just broken my meter.

 9 out of 10, what I do are continuity checks and DC Volts, so other fancy stuff is not really required. Having said that, I have ordered a new Mastech 8229 from Amazon.  I fancied a spare metre which sometimes can do temperature, freq, lux, capacitance on top of the basic functions,  plus doing proof readings against the 25. 

Yup, I fell in love with  this 25 already - feels solid tough quality device.


Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: vinlove on February 27, 2014, 06:47:54 pm
Ended up getting a FLUKE 25.   WOW what a great metre, very smooth and nice.   Huge and substantially built.
I think this will do for all my needs.
Did you go for the one on ebay?

Yes. With shipping, I think it came to 17 total.  Glad I got it.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Robomeds on February 28, 2014, 05:06:09 am
Ended up getting a FLUKE 25.   WOW what a great metre, very smooth and nice.   Huge and substantially built.
I think this will do for all my needs.
Did you go for the one on ebay?

Yes. With shipping, I think it came to 17 total.  Glad I got it.

Wow, I missed that one.  Heck of a great deal on it!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: KJDS on February 28, 2014, 07:11:37 am
I've got a pile of Fluke 25 without the carrying case, PM me for details.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: vinlove on February 28, 2014, 11:14:05 am
Mine came without carrying case, and it is quite alright. 
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on March 02, 2014, 06:59:46 pm
A reader of my blog sent me some photos of an 8060A that he cleverly converted from LCD to 7-segment LED display.  I secured his permission to post the photos, so have a look if you're interested (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/a-very-unique-fluke-8060a/).
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: lowimpedance on March 02, 2014, 11:27:16 pm
A reader of my blog sent me some photos of an 8060A that he cleverly converted from LCD to 7-segment LED display.  I secured his permission to post the photos, so have a look if you're interested (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/a-very-unique-fluke-8060a/).
Love it.  Always great to see 'display mods' people do for their favorite oldies.
Thanks
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: linux-works on March 03, 2014, 11:50:37 pm
its not a fluke, its not a fluke, its not a fluke:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7460/12915887613_992974d16c_o.jpg)

two are ibm and one is heath.

none are flukes.

(LOL)

just got my 2nd IBM in the mail today.  super clean condition.  why are there IBM branded ones coming on the market that show no use?  maybe IBM techs never used them?  did they know HOW to?  (semi lol)


btw, look at some of the manuf variations.  on the diode/beep button, the yellow color 'framing' is off on one of them.  on the bottom of the meters (not shown) the serial # stuff is engraved on one and raised on the other!  printing follows that on the back; the engraved serial is the engraved model # and static info stuff.
serial #'s are very different.  both came from different sellers, too, of course.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Excavatoree on March 04, 2014, 02:12:44 am
On most re-branded Fluke meters, the name "Fluke" appears on the meter, is molded into the back case, and it is molded into the holster as well.  This is true for the Matco, UTI, Heath, Lincoln Tech and other meters I've seen.

The Square D brand meter, has no "Fluke" on it at all - the back case just says "made in USA" without "Fluke."  Even the old, 70 series square hoster doesn't have Fluke on the back or the front.

It looks like the IBM is similar, but I can't remember if it's on the back of the meter or not.  If I recall, the old 80xx don't have Fluke anywhere on  the back, so the IBM won't either.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ronsr333 on March 08, 2014, 03:08:04 pm
Need Advice! Picked up an 8024A (No display). With a new battery I have checked connections through the On/Off switch to U8. Full battery voltage is present at Vdd/Vss at U8. Need suggestions as to where to go next. Take display apart??  Clean and reseat U8???? Any help?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: unicornio on May 12, 2014, 12:05:07 pm
Message to Dave: I worked at Fluke in the late 70s and early 80s as a design engineer. I started as a junior engineer on the original handheld DMM, the 8020.

hi, drtaylor and HOLA! all the forum, this is my post #1!...

I congratulate you for your story about the 'history of fluke'. sincerely fluke has my admiration and I used fluke instrumentation for over 40 years and I can only say that it has always been a great satisfaction and a sense of calm and reliability work with fluke equipment ...

's funny what you say about intersil, big manufacturer then. I bought in 1984 which I think is one of the best copies of multimeter fluke. How good is the copy that is still running and calibration over 30 years ... believe me I've used a lot, it's a good system, although false ... they should buy a few integrated  to intersil and copied your fluke ...;-)

it is a very goog machine!...

i post some photos that show i want to say.

Best regards from gredos, spain
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: XOIIO on May 12, 2014, 08:03:22 pm
Definitely going to read this thread in full, but until then if you are still getting rid of some send some my way  :-DMM

Oh man just read that your wife threw out all those parts, that's a damn shame, imagine someone building up one of those meters today.

I'm curious, what do you guys mean by NOS?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rstoer on May 13, 2014, 01:30:05 pm
...I'm curious, what do you guys mean by NOS?
New Old Stock
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: XOIIO on May 13, 2014, 03:18:49 pm
...I'm curious, what do you guys mean by NOS?
New Old Stock

ah
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: scopeman on July 03, 2014, 08:34:01 pm
Hello Dr. Taylor,

I just scored a IBM 8060A/AA off of ebay. It seems that only 200mV and 2V ranges work correctly with all the other ranges displaying like the 200mV range (applying 190mv displays as 19000 and any more displays overload). I have not popped the cover yet. I suspect that either the divider is bad or I have a switch problem. Anything else I should look for?

If it is the Caddock divider any idea where to find one of those? The unit is mint otherwise.
 
Are there other Fluke meters that used the same divider?

Thanks,

Sam
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on July 03, 2014, 08:58:47 pm
Sam,

I doubt that your problem is the divider. I would suspect the pushbutton switch assembly with the symptoms as you describe. Sometimes the little spring contacts in the switch get mangled.

With the 8060 off, check each switch to make sure the poles are connecting and disconnecting. The ground side of the divider has to go through several poles on several switches. Any pole not working would prevent the divider from dividing.

It's fairly easy to test if the divider is working. Just place 2V on the meter inputs and then monitor the voltage at the 100k resistor at the input to the MAC chip. Also, if you pop out both the Volts and ohms keys, then you can use another DMM to measure the resistors in the divider (8060 off).

Also a small possibility is that the silver zebra that connects the main board to the SM4 Micro just needs to be cleaned and/or repositioned. If this were the case, it would still divide in the analog world, but the micro may not know what range and function it is in.

Does it work in ohms mode? That would be a clue.

The divider was a custom part from Caddock to my specifications. I don't believe it was used ever again in newer meters. So unless Fluke has repair stock, that might be difficult to obtain except from a donor 8060. Hopefully your divider is fine.

I don't have an 8060 schematic where I'm writing this. If you want more specific instructions on trouble shooting this unit, let me know. Good luck.

If you have the User Guide, it tells you how to perform a digital switch check that will test the Micro's ability to figure out the range and function.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: xwarp on July 03, 2014, 10:46:49 pm
Hey Dr. Taylor,

I think I previously posted about a near mint 8060a that I got from a local swap meet for $20.

Had to replace the lytics in it as several had leaked, but fortunately, not a lot and the damage was minimal.

Had to pull the LCD assembly off and clean that area up along with adding a  thin layer of silver solder on the pads in the center of the board as the board has a minor bow to it that reduced the contact to the elastomeric strip.

Outside the minor "bleeding" in the display, and it booting up properly, it works pretty well.

It seems that occasionally now, after being off for a while, that it doesn't boot up properly and hangs up just after doing it's self test. Not sure why but a power cycle seems to correct it.

Accurate little booger too.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Napalm2002 on July 04, 2014, 11:46:54 pm
I have one near mint 8060a one very good condition both in excellent working condition and an ibm 8060a with case and probes for 61$ love the old meters. It has an almost expert kind offeel to it because u can't be and idiot and u kind of h and to put the range switches in the right spot or else......
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: scopeman on July 05, 2014, 12:28:36 am
Sam,

I doubt that your problem is the divider. I would suspect the pushbutton switch assembly with the symptoms as you describe. Sometimes the little spring contacts in the switch get mangled.

With the 8060 off, check each switch to make sure the poles are connecting and disconnecting. The ground side of the divider has to go through several poles on several switches. Any pole not working would prevent the divider from dividing.

It's fairly easy to test if the divider is working. Just place 2V on the meter inputs and then monitor the voltage at the 100k resistor at the input to the MAC chip. Also, if you pop out both the Volts and ohms keys, then you can use another DMM to measure the resistors in the divider (8060 off).

Also a small possibility is that the silver zebra that connects the main board to the SM4 Micro just needs to be cleaned and/or repositioned. If this were the case, it would still divide in the analog world, but the micro may not know what range and function it is in.

Does it work in ohms mode? That would be a clue.

The divider was a custom part from Caddock to my specifications. I don't believe it was used ever again in newer meters. So unless Fluke has repair stock, that might be difficult to obtain except from a donor 8060. Hopefully your divider is fine.

I don't have an 8060 schematic where I'm writing this. If you want more specific instructions on trouble shooting this unit, let me know. Good luck.

If you have the User Guide, it tells you how to perform a digital switch check that will test the Micro's ability to figure out the range and function.

Hello Dr. Taylor,

Well this is embarrassing for an old sparky like me to admit, but once I spent some time with it the problem was staring me right in the face. The real problem was the switches were in the wrong position! I had it in the high Z mode (all of the gray switches out) instead of the middle gray one in and the others out! A simple case of operator head space. I guess in my mind I did not think of that V/dB switch mattered when measuring DC! Sometime you just have to read the manual even if it is a PDF!

With that bit of head slapping out of the way I proceeded to check the unit on my voltage calibrator and it was (of course) dead on. Mine is serial number 4310057. After checking the cal I took it apart and cleaned the case with some water and a little dish soap gently with a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser (works wonders on surplus test gear)

Now the unit looks good as new ! Truly a great design. I do need to run the unit through its paces on AC but I don't have access to my AC test gear tonight, Maybe next week!

I do thank you very much for the troubleshooting hints as they will help someone else along the way for sure.

Sorry to have put you through that for such a simple solution!

All the best,
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: saturation on July 15, 2014, 07:45:23 pm
Dr Taylor, glad you posted this thread for posterity, in many ways the modern hand held DMM as a device was "created" by Fluke, and moreso, IMHO, by you and your team.   I missed this thread and the AmpHour interview, but there are always the archives.

I could never afford a Fluke DMM until my post grad years, but worked summers enough to buy a clone. For decades I wondered about how they copied the design and function so well, until your story about Intersil.    It seems it was more than good reverse engineering  ^-^ Many HH DMMs, particularly low cost ones from Taiwan from the early 1980s used the ICL7106 and at times the 7107, for benchmeters.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on July 15, 2014, 11:22:20 pm
Saturation- Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate it. You can listen to the Amphour interview anytime at   http://www.theamphour.com/180-an-interview-with-dave-taylor-multi-talented-meter-maker/. (http://www.theamphour.com/180-an-interview-with-dave-taylor-multi-talented-meter-maker/.)

For those who have been eagerly awaiting me putting some of my 8060s up for sale, I ran into a snag. Even though I used Tantalums in more positions than the production 8060s, I still had one 100uF aluminum cap that spewed. So the IBM labeled 8060 does not work accurately in the Megohms range. So next I will replace the one remaining alum cap and do a thorough IPA clean. All functions seem to be working other than high range ohms. A few segments on the LCD are light, which I'm sure will be fixed with a zebra strip cleaning. This one has not been turned on in 30 years. I'm amazed it worked as well as it did. Should be fully restorable.

After working on electronics all day, I sometimes just don't get up the gumption to work on them after I arrive home. Lazy, I know. Plus I'll have to go out and buy some 99% IPA... So, sorry I'm so slow.

Next I will test all my 8060s to see which ones need work. All have original caps, so I probably need to do some removals, cleaning, and new part installations.

Once fully restored, I'll post them on the Forum and offer the buyer a choice if he wants them signed, internally or externally or in just the User Guide. I have enough User Guides to cover all the 8060s I plan on selling, which is three right at the moment. 1 IBM, and 2 Fluke versions. Watch this topic over the next few weeks, and I'll announce it here right before posting them in the sales area. These are first hard model run units with the higher bandwidth Motorola TRMS circuit, and the higher AC input voltage range. So they will be the oldest 8060s available, but should perform as well as any 8060 ever made.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: saturation on July 16, 2014, 09:30:43 pm
My pleasure, listened to it yesterday.  When you read Fluke's own history of the HH DMM:

http://support.fluke.com/find-sales/download/asset/2386856_a_w.pdf (http://support.fluke.com/find-sales/download/asset/2386856_a_w.pdf)

You came in a key moment in history and help add functions that became a defacto standard in DMMs.

Here are some clones that used the 7106 that was very popular at the time.  The manufacturers even copied the switch layout suggests how popular the 8020a and subsequent models were.



Saturation- Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate it. You can listen to the Amphour interview anytime at   http://www.theamphour.com/180-an-interview-with-dave-taylor-multi-talented-meter-maker/. (http://www.theamphour.com/180-an-interview-with-dave-taylor-multi-talented-meter-maker/.)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: wagon on July 21, 2014, 12:33:14 pm
Thanky you drtaylor for your very interesting and detailed trip into the history of Fluke gear!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: saturation on July 21, 2014, 02:53:36 pm
Here's something rare to find.  The history of the digital multimeter, and the folks that made it happen.  It also suggests how Fluke got involved.

http://www.hp9825.com/html/dvms.html (http://www.hp9825.com/html/dvms.html)

http://www.pa.msu.edu/~edmunds/DVM_HP_3440a/digital_volt_meter_history.txt (http://www.pa.msu.edu/~edmunds/DVM_HP_3440a/digital_volt_meter_history.txt)

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Excavatoree on August 15, 2014, 12:23:50 am
My apologies if this has been discussed before, and if this isn't an appropriate thread. 

I purchased an 8024B - not newsworthy, except that on the back is stamped:

FLUKE (HOLLAND) B.V.
TILBURG, THE NETHERLANDS

MADE IN HOLLAND

This is the first Fluke that I've seen that isn't made in China or the USA.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on August 15, 2014, 04:46:43 am

I purchased an 8024B - not newsworthy, except that on the back is stamped:

FLUKE (HOLLAND) B.V.
TILBURG, THE NETHERLANDS

MADE IN HOLLAND

This is the first Fluke that I've seen that isn't made in China or the USA.

Fluke for years had an assembly plant in Tilburg. It had production, engineering, and all aspects of product production. My first Fluke engineering boss was named Richard Van Saun and had ties to the Netherlands. Anyway many thousands of fluke handheld DMMs were produced there. So, not rare...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: qno on August 17, 2014, 11:59:50 am
Hi DrTaylor

I have a question about the Fluke 8060. Maybe you can help.

I have one that has problems with the dot. It mostley stays in the 200V position.
But sometimes it changes.
I have checked the switches. All inputs on the MAC are grounded according to the switch position.

I am confused about the pull up for the open inputs.
When an input is grounded and switch position is changed it creeps up very slowly to about 1.9 Volts.

I wonder where the pullup for these inputs is?
Are they internal to the MAC chip?
What should the voltage on the pin be for reading a 1 on the input?

FYI
C12 has been leaky but I cleaned up the goo with IPA.
Pin 34 and 33 of the IC socked had been corroded but I have cleaned the socket and contact is now ok.
I checked the board with an ohmmeter (another 8060) but the dot does not want to move.

Thanks for your stories, i enjoy them very much.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on September 18, 2014, 07:55:46 pm
Hi YashEE,

The resistor originally was a carbon composition that has really good protection properties, but otherwise a poor performer. Metal oxide resistors might not be as safe in this application. Carbon Comp (not to be confused with carbon film) resistors are still manufactured by Ohmite and probably a few others.

The 430V Axial leaded varistors are no longer available. I suggest getting 10mm disc types and squeezing them in. Any voltage rating from 380 to 430 should work as long as you replace all of them so that they match.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: YashEE on September 19, 2014, 12:31:53 am
Thank you drtaylor for re-posting your cogent pointers here (I was asked to delete my duplicate post on the 8060A topic)

Cheers,
Ya.

Hi YashEE,

The resistor originally was a carbon composition that has really good protection properties, but otherwise a poor performer. Metal oxide resistors might not be as safe in this application. Carbon Comp (not to be confused with carbon film) resistors are still manufactured by Ohmite and probably a few others.

The 430V Axial leaded varistors are no longer available. I suggest getting 10mm disc types and squeezing them in. Any voltage rating from 380 to 430 should work as long as you replace all of them so that they match.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: wiss on October 02, 2014, 06:27:09 pm
Got my 8062  :)

28:50 € shipped from Austria, picked it up about 18:00 today, now its slightly passed 20:00.

Some external cleaning with soap.
Cleaning of the MCU-connector with IPA.
Tried to pull out the LCD but it was rather not wanting to give away, but after that the LCD worked properly again!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on October 02, 2014, 06:45:32 pm
Tried to pull out the LCD but it was rather not wanting to give away, but after that the LCD worked properly again!
If those caps are the originals, change them now because they will leak.  The caps look like they were made 1985 month 5?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: wiss on October 02, 2014, 06:53:39 pm
Tried to pull out the LCD but it was rather not wanting to give away, but after that the LCD worked properly again!
If those caps are the originals, change them now because they will leak.  The caps look like they were made 1985 month 5?

It looks very clean now, but it's on the todo-list (I have the ordering-numbers for caps that fit)

A few weeks ago, at work, I repaired a 8060 at which had 5 or 6 caps vomit over the board (ugly!). Those (that barfed) were darker in colour than these, some of the still intact caps were the same colour as in mine, are the light-blue ones better than the dark blue ones?

That 8060 is from -81 or -82, it has more caps than listed in the manual one can download, does anyone have scans of manuals for the older versions?
My 8062 is older than what is covered by the web-manual also.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on October 02, 2014, 07:11:02 pm
My 8062 is older than what is covered by the web-manual also.
I have a hard copy IBM manual that is dated Feb 1982.  If you need a scan, I can do it over the weekend.

I found a 8062A pdf manual that is dated March 1982.

http://exodus.poly.edu/~kurt/manuals/manuals/Fluke/FLUKE%208062A%20Instruction.pdf (http://exodus.poly.edu/~kurt/manuals/manuals/Fluke/FLUKE%208062A%20Instruction.pdf)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: IconicPCB on October 02, 2014, 08:34:54 pm
I am looking for an 8050A transformer for Australian conditions.
( what seemed like a bargain ebay new old stock is turning into a nightmare)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on October 02, 2014, 09:22:54 pm
I have a limited number of original 8060A Manuals (~10) that I will part with for the cost of postage, packaging materials, and gas. These have full schematics and troubleshooting guides.  I'd be happy to sign them if you want me to. Please send requests privately.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: wiss on October 02, 2014, 09:43:56 pm
I have a limited number of original 8060A Manuals (~10) that I will part with for the cost of postage, packaging materials, and gas. These have full schematics and troubleshooting guides.  I'd be happy to sign them if you want me to. Please send requests privately.

Wow! Me! Me! :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: xwarp on October 02, 2014, 11:56:38 pm
Hey Dr. Taylor,

Did you happen to see my previous post?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: idpromnut on November 25, 2014, 03:09:08 pm
*nudge* Just wanted to see if Dave Taylor has msg'd anyone else since Oct 3rd, I haven't heard anything from him in PM nor here… hope all is OK!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: PedroDaGr8 on November 25, 2014, 04:40:45 pm
*nudge* Just wanted to see if Dave Taylor has msg'd anyone else since Oct 3rd, I haven't heard anything from him in PM nor here… hope all is OK!

he was last active Nov. 13 according to his profile.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: radhaz on November 25, 2014, 04:53:38 pm
Here's how I cleaned several of mine.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: PeteJE on November 25, 2014, 05:11:45 pm
So excited to have two of these on the way to me:

1 - a completely reconditioned (cleaned all around, re-caped, tested for cal) 8060A (paid $120)
2 - a working, original (not reconditioned) ibm blue 8060AA (ebay win at $60)

They are perfect for my diy audio building (I used to use one when I worked in recording studios during more analog days).  Only need the one, but couldn't resist picking up the AA model when it came up on ebay - this thread is directly responsible, lol.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: PeteJE on November 25, 2014, 05:23:45 pm
Here's how I cleaned several of mine.

What cleaning solution did you use, would be safe?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: radhaz on November 25, 2014, 11:27:04 pm
I used LusterClean. All the metal parts came out shiny, and all the switches now work perfectly. These were meters my company used for calibration of products, and were quite dirty. I also re-soldered the banana jacks, as they all had cracked solder.
I may resubmit one to the cal lab to see if they will calibrate it. They had rejected these meters as malfunctioning.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: kwochele on March 18, 2015, 11:35:57 pm
Hi,

Hopefully I am going about this post correctly, if not I plead newbie status.

I have been caught up collecting, repairing, and cleaning vintage Fluke meters.  I am currently working on a Fluke 8060A/AA IBM meter.  The capacitors have been replaced, the circuit board cleaned, the display connections cleaned and I even changed the processor.

It seems to work fine for the functions checked, except for reading a DC voltage.   When it sits next to another 8060 it will read the exact same voltage but only after r a few seconds.   In my setup, I have two 8060s connected to a D cell battery.  When I turn both 8060s on they go through the self test.  One 8060 will almost immediately read 1.5620 volts while the one I am working on jumps around a bit then settles at a voltage slightly higher or lower than 1.5620 (-1.5616 to 1.5635) then after a couple of seconds (approx 5 seconds) the meter will read 1.5620.  I can watch the last two digits increment or decrements by one during that time until it reads 1.5620 +/-.0001.   Cycling power the meter settles to 1.5620 faster unless it is off for a length of time.   Swapping the leads produces the same symptom, that is after a few seconds it will read -1.5619 volts.

Any suggestions of what to check are appreciated.

Thank you.  Ken
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: TerraHertz on March 19, 2015, 02:04:11 am
What a great thread! But kind of worrying - it started in Oct 2013, runs to 13 pages, and drtaylor's last post was in Oct 2014 (on my birthday!), and yet I can't recall ever seeing this thread before just now. Conclusion: I must be getting Alzheimer's, as it doesn't seem possible I could have kept missing it every visit, for a year.

Anyway, here's my small collection of Fluke meters. Some a little out of cal on DC V apparently.
Now to PM drtaylor about one of those manuals. Hopefully he's OK.

How sad! He designed some beautiful instruments, that sold many tens of thousands, enjoyed by engineers and techs worldwide, made Fluke millions probably, but because of that 'engineers have their (lowly) place' thing, he's not wealthy and still has to work. Never got that yacht unlike the probably useless salesman, and now apparently doesn't even have his own nice big, secure workshop. If having boxes of his memento stuff subjected to wifely toss-out predations is anything to judge by.

Life is not fair.

Edit: Now I just have to get an 8060A. No choice.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Excavatoree on March 19, 2015, 02:10:23 am
Nice old 77 with the unfused 10A range, and 73 with only the 10 A range.  (You need an older 21 with only the low current range to go with it.)

My boss at the electronic shop had a 77 like that one.  It was the first Fluke I had seen.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on March 19, 2015, 02:47:42 am
Any suggestions of what to check are appreciated.
Obviously, drtaylor and others are the experts here, but I have some suggestions to at least get the discussion started?

1) When I repaired my 8060A, ACV was way off.  It turned out that the capacitor right next to the pot had leaked and while I cleaned up the pcb with IPA and replaced the capacitor, the electrolyte had wicked its way up to the ACV pot.  A couple of turns left and right fixed that problem.  Maybe give your DCV pots a couple of turns left and right?
2) I don't have a lot of equipment with the push button/switch arrangement, but from what I have read, if they are 20+ years old, they can potentially affect readings and require cleaning.
3) Does the last digit fluctation happen if you use the 20V range?  You lose a digit of resolution, but I'm curious if it happens on the 20V range.
4) Have you checked the soldering on the input jacks?  Have you tried cleaning them with a q-tip and IPA?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: idpromnut on March 19, 2015, 03:08:13 am
Now to PM drtaylor about one of those manuals. Hopefully he's OK.

I had PM'd him a while back about getting a manual (I apparently was the first to take him up on his offer) but I never heard back from him after I sent him my address info to get the postage amount. I PM'd him a couple of months after to follow up and still nothing. I am actually kind of worried that something has happened to him, although hopefully nothing serious.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: xrunner on March 19, 2015, 09:38:22 pm
Here's my collection. All in pretty much mint condition. I also have one other 8000A but it's got a problem I have yet to isolate. I think it's the analog IC which I haven't found available yet.  :(

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-s_UdwzRIkLI/VQtBOwwzZKI/AAAAAAAACFk/E9t5A0llGi8/w1024-h768-no/IMG_0736.png)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: kwochele on March 19, 2015, 10:09:44 pm
Hi Retiredcaps,

Thank you for responding.

1) When the meter first powered on, the DCV was off and I used R5 to set it.  However it was not calibrating consistently until I replaced the Measurement Acquisition Chip (MAC) from a donor 8060.  After replacing the MAC the meter always settled to the value I set using R5.   After replacing the MAC, I cleaned the circuit board including the calibration pots using a can of Radio Shack’s Electronics Cleaner. 

2) I heavily sprayed the switches but I did not disassemble them.  I found an entry online that mentioned the snap rings could be removed to examine and clean the contacts.  I still need to do that.

3) The last digit does fluctuate on the 20V.   When I turn on the meter at the 20V selection connected to the D Cell (pretty confident the battery is 1.5620V based on my other meters) the 8060A/AA meter jumps to “-OL” then 1.574 after the display test and then immediately to 1.540, 1.548, 1.553 then it will count approximately 1 count per second 1.554, 1.555., etc until it reaches 1.560.  I noticed my second 8060 starts out the same way it just reaches the final value quicker.

4) The input jacks look good and I cleaned them with both WD-40 and then the Electronic cleaner.

Since it does eventually read the correct value after 5 – 10 seconds, could this be normal?

Thanks,

Ken
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: lowimpedance on March 19, 2015, 10:12:22 pm
Any suggestions of what to check are appreciated.
Obviously, drtaylor and others are the experts here, but I have some suggestions to at least get the discussion started?

1) When I repaired my 8060A, ACV was way off.  It turned out that the capacitor right next to the pot had leaked and while I cleaned up the pcb with IPA and replaced the capacitor, the electrolyte had wicked its way up to the ACV pot.  A couple of turns left and right fixed that problem.  Maybe give your DCV pots a couple of turns left and right?
2) I don't have a lot of equipment with the push button/switch arrangement, but from what I have read, if they are 20+ years old, they can potentially affect readings and require cleaning.
3) Does the last digit fluctation happen if you use the 20V range?  You lose a digit of resolution, but I'm curious if it happens on the 20V range.
4) Have you checked the soldering on the input jacks?  Have you tried cleaning them with a q-tip and IPA?

 Couple more things to check would be that the negative volts rail is stable (U4 and caps) and possibly a dodgy socket for the main 40 pin MAC chip.

Oh also did you have any leaking electrolytics ?.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on March 19, 2015, 11:00:59 pm
3) The last digit does fluctuate on the 20V.   When I turn on the meter at the 20V selection connected to the D Cell (pretty confident the battery is 1.5620V based on my other meters) the 8060A/AA meter jumps to “-OL” then 1.574 after the display test and then immediately to 1.540, 1.548, 1.553 then it will count approximately 1 count per second 1.554, 1.555., etc until it reaches 1.560.  I noticed my second 8060 starts out the same way it just reaches the final value quicker.

4) The input jacks look good and I cleaned them with both WD-40 and then the Electronic cleaner.

Since it does eventually read the correct value after 5 – 10 seconds, could this be normal?

This has all the hallmarks of a contaminated PCB, assuming you have taken care of any leaking caps and made sure the power supplies are OK.  I do not like the sound of WD40 (or Radio Shack electronics cleaner, either) anywhere near the inside of this meter, it is very susceptible to developing leakage currents due to PCB contamination.  Dunk the whole thing in 91% or better IPA, scrub what you can get to with a brush, then allow to dry overnight.  A fan is a good thing.  I'd remove the MAC first, and make sure the socket is clean.  Scrub the MAC with IPA too.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: krivx on March 19, 2015, 11:21:58 pm
3) The last digit does fluctuate on the 20V.   When I turn on the meter at the 20V selection connected to the D Cell (pretty confident the battery is 1.5620V based on my other meters) the 8060A/AA meter jumps to “-OL” then 1.574 after the display test and then immediately to 1.540, 1.548, 1.553 then it will count approximately 1 count per second 1.554, 1.555., etc until it reaches 1.560.  I noticed my second 8060 starts out the same way it just reaches the final value quicker.

4) The input jacks look good and I cleaned them with both WD-40 and then the Electronic cleaner.

Since it does eventually read the correct value after 5 – 10 seconds, could this be normal?

This has all the hallmarks of a contaminated PCB, assuming you have taken care of any leaking caps and made sure the power supplies are OK.  I do not like the sound of WD40 (or Radio Shack electronics cleaner, either) anywhere near the inside of this meter, it is very susceptible to developing leakage currents due to PCB contamination.  Dunk the whole thing in 91% or better IPA, scrub what you can get to with a brush, then allow to dry overnight.  A fan is a good thing.  I'd remove the MAC first, and make sure the socket is clean.  Scrub the MAC with IPA too.

When I repaired mine I had to replace electrolytics and the MAC socket. After cleaning the board I had a small residual reading with no leads, giving the MAC an IPA bath fixed it. Thanks for your article on a similar repair, it was very useful  :-+
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: kwochele on March 20, 2015, 01:41:12 am
lowimpedance / krivx,

I replaced the electrolytic capacitors but I did not see signs of leaking.   I checked U4 (pin3 to pin 5) and it was stable at -5.126 volts.

Interesting that you mention a dodgy socket as a possibility.  When I first received the meter the readings were off.  When I tried to calibrate VDC using R5 I could not get it to be repeatable.  I would set it then cycle power and the voltage reading would be all over the place again.   I took a shot and replaced the MAC from a donor 8060 and that seemed to correct the problem.  I set VDC using R5 to match my other Fluke and it has matched the second Fluke ever since.   What is interesting is that I have disassembled multiple Flukes and I always pull the chip, which up until this meter required a fair amount of effort.  The MAC on this meter can be easily pulled from the socket.

ModemHead / krivx,

A typically I do not admit to shopping at Radio Shack, however our local store was one of the ones closing and well I bought more than I should have.  I did not realize soaking the board in IPA was an option.  I will certainly do that as I noticed the Radio Shack electronic cleaner seems to leave a residue.   The WD40 is only for two areas; the on/off switch which is one of the reasons I pull the MAC and to remove corrosion on the inside of the  input jacks.  I try not to get any WD-40 on the main board.
 
For cleaning you are saying I can remove the MAC and soak the entire main board in IPA?

Thanks to everyone for their inputs.  Ken
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on March 20, 2015, 02:49:56 am
For cleaning you are saying I can remove the MAC and soak the entire main board in IPA?
I used to be squeamish about that but now I've done it so many times I don't worry about it anymore.  It doesn't seem to bother a thing, and often cures a number of ills.  The plastic cover on the muRata piezo will hold liquid, so blowing that out, along with the switches, with a duster can or compressed air is a good idea.  I always leave the board in front of a muffin fan for at least an hour or more for drying, overnight is better.

In case you haven't found it yet, you may want to read about my initial experience with an 8060A (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-8060a-repair/), especially the update at the very end.

The picture is a Fluke 8024B, but you get the idea.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on March 20, 2015, 04:49:35 am
Since it does eventually read the correct value after 5 – 10 seconds, could this be normal?
Meters that take 5 to 10 seconds to settle on the correct range don't have a place in my household.   :--

I don't have my 8060A handy, but I recall it reads and settles on the correct value in probably 1 second.

The manual also say the same.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: krivx on March 20, 2015, 08:54:47 am
lowimpedance / krivx,

I replaced the electrolytic capacitors but I did not see signs of leaking.   I checked U4 (pin3 to pin 5) and it was stable at -5.126 volts.

Interesting that you mention a dodgy socket as a possibility.  When I first received the meter the readings were off.  When I tried to calibrate VDC using R5 I could not get it to be repeatable.  I would set it then cycle power and the voltage reading would be all over the place again.   I took a shot and replaced the MAC from a donor 8060 and that seemed to correct the problem.  I set VDC using R5 to match my other Fluke and it has matched the second Fluke ever since.   What is interesting is that I have disassembled multiple Flukes and I always pull the chip, which up until this meter required a fair amount of effort.  The MAC on this meter can be easily pulled from the socket.

ModemHead / krivx,

A typically I do not admit to shopping at Radio Shack, however our local store was one of the ones closing and well I bought more than I should have.  I did not realize soaking the board in IPA was an option.  I will certainly do that as I noticed the Radio Shack electronic cleaner seems to leave a residue.   The WD40 is only for two areas; the on/off switch which is one of the reasons I pull the MAC and to remove corrosion on the inside of the  input jacks.  I try not to get any WD-40 on the main board.
 
For cleaning you are saying I can remove the MAC and soak the entire main board in IPA?

Thanks to everyone for their inputs.  Ken

My issue with the socket could be seen by eye, a few of the pins were corroded. This probably explained why I needed to clean the IC as well.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: joeqsmith on April 25, 2015, 05:33:58 pm
This was the first digital meter I ever owned.  Bought it new in the early 80s.   Blew it up at one point and was able to get the parts to repair it.   Blew it up again when probing the high voltage section of an old analog oscilloscope.   This one has the battery setup with the light bulb limiter.

Notice my hack on the U2 op-amp.    Paint dot was from replacing the analog part from the first time I damaged it.   
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Terry Lingle on May 27, 2015, 07:13:42 pm
I have an 8060A that I bought new to replace my 8012A when I first saw it so it was probably one of the first in Western Canada. All of its life it has been my traveling service meter. It went in for calibration a few times over the years but i doubt if it ever was actually out of spec.
I finally had to replace it a couple of years ago   because the battery door latches failed and  it was not cat III certified which is a requirement where I work   (all 600 v Ac and 4160 feed in a wet environment)
To replace it I bought an 87vwhich is a nice meter but I much prefer the 8060A
I would like to get a battery door and the flip stand for it if any are available.

The case has Fluke Holland   made in Holland on it
The meters SN is 3836178.

I still have the original manual and errata sheet that came with it but since it was stored in the case I carried the meter in it is not pristine.
The case itself has had so much handling that the traction grooves on it as well as those on the power switch are worn away.

The 8012A  it replaced is still fully functional as well and used as my bench meter when repairing equipment.

I sure do like my fluke meters.
Terry

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Muxr on May 28, 2015, 04:37:10 am
Pulled a trigger on what looked like a mint condition 8062A. For giggles mainly, due to the funky controls and great history.

Feel like a hipster now. Speaking of which.

"How much does a hipster weight?


An instagram!"
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: TimFox on May 28, 2015, 02:02:08 pm
Q: How many hipsters does it take to change a light bulb?
A: It's an obscure number that you never heard of.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: TimFox on May 28, 2015, 02:10:59 pm
I use a Fluke 8810A that sits on a shelf above my work bench for normal troubleshooting.
I had another one, sitting below it, that was not powered on and became infested with ants (apparently attracted by the plastic housing).   That unit failed and I had to scrap it.
The remaining unit (which was powered on all that time) is still going strong.
Thereafter, I found Terro Ant Killer II (borax based) to be an effective method to keep ants away from the shelves, placing a few inch-square pieces of cardboard, each with a large drop, in strategic locations.  (Avoid food preparation areas.)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Deckert on May 29, 2015, 08:52:53 am
Anyway, here's my small collection of Fluke meters. Some a little out of cal on DC V apparently.

Fabulous collection! That Fluke 77 (series 1 and series 2) is fairly easy to re-cal. I made a short video of how I re-calibrated mine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ptPe_AeZiQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ptPe_AeZiQ)

Much of my "training" came from MrModemHead's invaluable blog.

--deckert
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Muxr on June 03, 2015, 10:46:17 pm
Just got my 8060A. Looks to be in good condition. Going to open it up this weekend and probably look at replacing the caps. I love the small form factor. Looks to be in calibration as well.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: tautech on June 03, 2015, 11:02:44 pm
What a great thread! But kind of worrying - it started in Oct 2013, runs to 13 pages, and drtaylor's last post was in Oct 2014......
Not to worry, he's keeping an eye on us, last activity 31 May.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on June 03, 2015, 11:32:44 pm
DR Taylor here...still alive and kicking. I've been doing a lot of G-jobs as well as some of my own projects. Just haven't had anything to post. I apologize to all those I promised 8060 User Guides to. I still have a small stack. I was just too lazy and too cheap to figure out how to mail them outside of the USA. So I will try to get to that soon as several projects are winding down.

One thing I've been wanting to share, and I don't remember if I mentioned this before. One main reason the LCDs on 8060s have lasted so long was due to having a separate polarizer. Most of the older systems had laminated polarizers and when they delaminated they would quit polarizing, causing black spots. The other reason the 8060 LCDs have lasted so long is that the Sharp SM4 micro had a very well balanced multiplex scheme that truly achieved 0 volts average voltage. This has prevented plating of the indium which you also see quite commonly on old instruments, even Fluke instruments. Not to mention, I truly believe that Sharp made superior LCDs to the ones that Crystaloid and LXD were making at the time. So these comments are limited to the 8060A and 8062A. The other 80 series (the granddaddy being the 8020) can have bad LCDs as they age. Of course any LCD will fail if it is cracked or the glass delaminates. It's really sad that I lost my big box of 8060 parts.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Muxr on June 04, 2015, 12:06:23 am
Thanks for checking in with us DR Taylor! Having just received my 8060A and using it for the first time, I must say this is truly a fantastic piece of gear. It is pretty impressive considering it is still quite capable so many years later. Also I didn't expect it to be this compact, which is great, after I restore it I think I am going to use it on a daily basis.

Thank you for designing such a great instrument!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: wiss on June 04, 2015, 11:17:21 am
I accidentally bought a old Keithley 130 a few months back. The display was all pitch black! I scraped of the soft stuff on the back of the glass and then the display got transparent. Now I'l sort of looking for a replacement polarizer/reflector...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Excavatoree on June 04, 2015, 02:31:19 pm
Just for future reference, I'll ad that the 70 series LCDs have a polarizing film over the glass that often fails.  It fails evenly, and the digits fade to brown then light brown.   Another forum member (sorry, I forget who) determined that the old polarizing film  could be scraped off and new polarizing film could be added.  He rotated the polarizer on his, and made a reverse digit meter. 


EDIT:  Here it is - it was "Sonicj." 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/recovery-of-an-old-fluke-8020a-with-a-bad-lcd/msg32059/#msg32059 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/recovery-of-an-old-fluke-8020a-with-a-bad-lcd/msg32059/#msg32059)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on June 04, 2015, 02:50:25 pm
Just for future reference, I'll ad that the 70 series LCDs have a polarizing film over the glass that often fails.  It fails evenly, and the digits fade to brown then light brown.   Another forum member (sorry, I forget who) determined that the old polarizing film  could be scraped off and new polarizing film could be added.  He rotated the polarizer on his, and made a reverse digit meter.
I've tried that before on a 70-series LCD.  I think the post you refer to was what gave me the idea.  A razor-blade scraper will get the old polarizer off, and citrus solvent takes care of the adhesive residue.  Cut a new piece of polarizer film, (correctly oriented) and the display will be good as new.

P.S. @Deckert, thanks for the plug.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: KJDS on June 25, 2015, 08:46:58 pm
I've just bought a big pile of 8010A. Only tested a few so far and about half are fully working, and despite not having been cal'd in years are within a digit of each other.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on June 25, 2015, 10:04:48 pm
KJDS, If you determine that the main converter IC is to blame for the 8010 units not working, I do have a few 429100 chips for replacement. They've been sitting in antistatic foam for 30 years, so who knows? I'd advise replacing the electrolytics, or at least a careful inspection to look for spew (highly technical term). For top performance a good washing in IPA can fix all kinds of problems. However, try to keep the alcohol out of the ganged switch assembly.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: KJDS on June 25, 2015, 10:39:59 pm
KJDS, If you determine that the main converter IC is to blame for the 8010 units not working, I do have a few 429100 chips for replacement. They've been sitting in antistatic foam for 30 years, so who knows? I'd advise replacing the electrolytics, or at least a careful inspection to look for spew (highly technical term). For top performance a good washing in IPA can fix all kinds of problems. However, try to keep the alcohol out of the ganged switch assembly.

I'm cheating and giving away the non-working ones to those that buy a working unit.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Deathwish on June 25, 2015, 11:20:13 pm
KJDS, If you determine that the main converter IC is to blame for the 8010 units not working, I do have a few 429100 chips for replacement. They've been sitting in antistatic foam for 30 years, so who knows? I'd advise replacing the electrolytics, or at least a careful inspection to look for spew (highly technical term). For top performance a good washing in IPA can fix all kinds of problems. However, try to keep the alcohol out of the ganged switch assembly.

I'm cheating and giving away the non-working ones to those that buy a working unit.

oooh did I get one ?. better get some bits sorted then hadn't I......
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: DarthBubba on July 26, 2015, 12:19:35 am
Greetings to All!  I learned of this place from Mr. Modemhead's web site, which seems inactive now.  I'd like to post a message here regarding my Fluke 8060A.  :-+

Given the BOM Mr. Modemhead generated (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-8060a-repair/ (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-8060a-repair/)) for the re-capping his 8060A in the context of Dr. Taylor’s EEVBlog (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/history-of-the-fluke-8020-series/msg325570/#msg325570 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/history-of-the-fluke-8020-series/msg325570/#msg325570)) message, would it make sense to go ahead and replace all the caps Mr. Modemhead specified with tantalum devices of the same, or slightly higher voltage, rather than use current aluminum electrolytics (even though the new ones are superior to the original caps)? I too have one of the older 8060A meters, and could not locate caps 19, 24, & 28 until I dug out my owner’s manual and looked at the schematic that came with my meter. They don’t exist in the .PDFs available on the Fluke web site. Are there any other 32-year-old electrolytic caps that anyone would suggest changing out while I’m digging around in my 8060A’s guts?

Greetings to Dr. Taylor, who I only recently learned was one of my heroes (Had my 8060A since August of 1982)!

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: vindoline on July 26, 2015, 02:28:14 am
Welcome DarthBubba, I've repaired 4 8060A meters at this point. I replaced every aluminum electrolytic with modern 105 C rated parts of the same physical dimentions. I think I used Panasonic parts. It's amazing the amount of damage these spewing caps cause! Is your meter in working order, or does it need repair?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on July 26, 2015, 02:35:51 am
Greetings to All!  I learned of this place from Mr. Modemhead's web site, which seems inactive now.
As modemhead explains here

http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/reality-check/ (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/reality-check/)

he is on the road a lot and doesn't have regular time now.

Quote
would it make sense to go ahead and replace all the caps Mr. Modemhead specified with tantalum devices of the same, or slightly higher voltage, rather than use current aluminum electrolytics (even though the new ones are superior to the original caps)?
Just use high quality Nichicon, Rubyon, United Chemicon or Panasonic aluminum electrolytic capacitors for replacements.  Replace all the old ones regardless if they test or look okay.  All the old ones will eventually leak.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: DarthBubba on July 26, 2015, 06:53:43 am
Welcome DarthBubba, I've repaired 4 8060A meters at this point. I replaced every aluminum electrolytic with modern 105 C rated parts of the same physical dimentions. I think I used Panasonic parts. It's amazing the amount of damage these spewing caps cause! Is your meter in working order, or does it need repair?

It was starting to get "funny" with the display - segments not going full "On," and sometimes it would just die for no reason.  I opened it up and looked around a bit, nudged a few parts here and there; no actual, intentional repair was done.  Now my 8060A seems to be working normally.  I hooked it up to a wall socket and monitored the ACV and frequency for over an hour without a hiccup.  Beginner's luck, I guess.

Anyway, I was specifically wondering about replacing the old aluminum electrolytics with tantalum capacitors, as the Tants are usually more stable and have a tighter tolerance (most are 10% vs 20% or worse for aluminum caps). That, and I can usually place a higher voltage unit in the same physical space vacated by an aluminum electro.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: DarthBubba on July 26, 2015, 07:02:19 am
Quote
would it make sense to go ahead and replace all the caps Mr. Modemhead specified with tantalum devices of the same, or slightly higher voltage, rather than use current aluminum electrolytics (even though the new ones are superior to the original caps)?
Quote
Just use high quality Nichicon, Rubyon, United Chemicon or Panasonic aluminum electrolytic capacitors for replacements.  Replace all the old ones regardless if they test or look okay.  All the old ones will eventually leak.

As above I wrote to @vindoline above;  I was specifically thinking about replacing the old aluminum electrolytics with tantalum capacitors, as the Tants are usually more stable and have a tighter tolerance (most are 10% vs 20% or worse for aluminum caps). That, and I can usually place a higher voltage tantalum unit in the same physical space vacated by an aluminum electro.  Is there any reason for preferring aluminum electros over tantalum caps?  I already have a supply of new, low-ESR aluminum electros on hand, so getting good grade aluminum electro-caps is not an issue in this case.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on July 26, 2015, 01:56:13 pm
I don't have enough design experience to say for sure whether tantulum caps are appropriate in the 8060A. Personally, if I had another one to repair, I would just get top-brand aluminum electrolytics like in my original BOM, except this time I'd go for 105° temp rated ones, as others mentioned.

If your intermittent issues return, carefully disassemble the LCD/microprocessor board assembly, and clean the elastomeric connectors with IPA.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: DarthBubba on July 28, 2015, 12:49:20 am
I don't have enough design experience to say for sure whether tantulum caps are appropriate in the 8060A. Personally, if I had another one to repair, I would just get top-brand aluminum electrolytics like in my original BOM, except this time I'd go for 105° temp rated ones, as others mentioned.

If your intermittent issues return, carefully disassemble the LCD/microprocessor board assembly, and clean the elastomeric connectors with IPA.

Thanks for the reply.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on December 17, 2015, 06:00:02 pm
I was PM'd about repairing an 8060A. I thought the information might prove useful to other owners of 8060s.

Bob in Port Coquitlam BC wrote:
"I recently pulled an 8060A out of non-function land back to life.  Thanks to Mr.Modem-head, a 7660, and a bunch of electrolytics its now working again  ... except the ohms range.  A little troubleshooting revealed a broken RT1.  A quick 1k resistor in place of it proved the ohms is working.  I have sourced out the 446849 Fluke part but the greedy people on Ebay and other places want outrageous amounts to ship a few $ part across the 49th parallel.  Is there any source you know of (Digikey, Mouser etc) that would have a suitable 1000v PTC thermistor substitute?  Or am I stuck looking for an affordable Fluke part?

Also, should I worry about a ratio check that starts at 10025 and settles to 10015?  More cleaning maybe?"

DRTaylor reply:
Regarding the PTC. The original part was made by a company no longer in existence. There are many candidates that would do the job. The 8060A was designed before the international safety rules went into effect, and the ohms protection wouldn't pass todays tests. That being said, the ohms protection is pretty simple in the 8060A. It consists of two selected 2N3904 transistors in BC to E diode mode. The resulting zener diodes are connected back to back. This yields a very low leakage Zener Diode clamp (leakage typically <1pA) that will clamp at around ±6.4V. Having a low leakage clamp is critical to making accurate measurements in the higher ohm and nS ranges. The current rating of these zeners is around 100mA. So the trick to this protection circuit is to have a PTC that reduces the current well below 100mA in time to keep the clamps from burning up. The initial resistance of the PTC is important in that it is in series with the reference resistor. But only the 200 and 2k ohm ranges have any worries about the series resistance. The max current through the PTC will top out at around 1.6mA.

BTW, the overload protection in the ohms range is rated to 300V, not 1000V. This is due to the breakdown rating of the PTC. So a cheap alternative that will not compromise performance is the Epcos B59885C0120A070. This is a PTC rated at 500V. These are in stock at DigiKey. However, it is bigger than the original part and you'll have to find a place to tuck it in. This is insulation coated which helps when you have to kinda fold it in. PTCs are noisy devices, but in this case it is just in series, and no precision measurements include the voltage across the PTC.

As far the ratio test failing, the most likely reason is board contamination, probably from spewwed (sic) electrolyte from the old Electrolytic caps. This requires a thorough cleaning. You should immerse the entire board (but not the switches) in IPA. Let it soak, then give it a good brushing with a stiff acid brush. Ratio error is can also be caused by DA in the integrate cap or by leakage current. It is probable you have a contamination under one or more of the critical A/D converter caps, or in the MAC chip socket. Usually the film caps do not degrade with time, so I would put that at a distant possibility. The ratio test shows that you probably have turnover error. Try putting 1V in and then reverse the leads. If all is well it should read exactly the same.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on December 19, 2015, 03:41:04 pm
Thanks @drtaylor for sharing that information!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rsjsouza on December 19, 2015, 09:02:58 pm
+1. Thanks for the information. It is really nice to see the developer's inside scoop... :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on December 20, 2015, 06:44:11 am
Regarding the PTC. The original part was made by a company no longer in existence.

BTW, the overload protection in the ohms range is rated to 300V, not 1000V. This is due to the breakdown rating of the PTC. So a cheap alternative that will not compromise performance is the Epcos B59885C0120A070. This is a PTC rated at 500V. These are in stock at DigiKey.
In my research over the last couple of years, the only PTC that is rated at 1000V and 1.1k ohm is the YS4020.

http://www.cdiweb.com/datasheets/ge_thermometrics/ys4019.pdf (http://www.cdiweb.com/datasheets/ge_thermometrics/ys4019.pdf)

Unfortunately, no one stocks it.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rrinker on December 24, 2015, 02:44:45 am
Great thread to run across. I have an 8012A that I snagged on a dumpster dive some 10 years ago. Currently my only bench dmm, and it gets used regularly. So far no troubles but I suppose it's only a matter of time before some capacitors call it quits.

      --Randy
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: billfernandez on December 24, 2015, 06:47:57 am
Greetings all.  It's wonderful to find this thread.  I bought a Fluke 8060A in 1983 when I was working on the Macintosh at Apple.  IT was expensive, but I wanted a really good meter that would last a long time, and it has!  It's been a real workhorse, and as far as I know still works perfectly (though I've learned from this thread that it would be prudent to replace some caps). 

I just recently bought a modern meter (Extech EX540) to replace it, but I still like my 8060A better -- and have always appreciated and benefited from the fast continuity response!  The Extech sucks at this simple function.

I used to work at Siliconix (a now defunct semiconductor manufacturer) and when there I learned that we were making a custom chip (I think a hybrid analog/digital A/D converter) for Fluke meters.  I had thought they were for the 8060, but I guess not.  DRTaylor, do you have any recollection of what I'm talking about?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: gearhead on December 24, 2015, 06:28:21 pm
I have an 8020B that I got about 15 years ago, works like new. And I have an 8000A, 8600A, and 8050A benchtop meters. The 8000A was a new unused military issue unit that I use as a reference. The 8600A works like a champ. I've had to replace the NiCad batteries twice. The 8050A has an issue with the RMS converter. I'm about to unsolder it from the main PCB and check the components on it. I can get everything except for the Fluke IC. Maybe I'll get lucky?
So here's a pic of them
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af32/Gear_head1963/My%20amps%20and%20Equipment/IMG_20151223_224936_zpseu4qvuld.jpg)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: eugenenine on December 24, 2015, 06:42:40 pm
I have an 8050a like the bottom one.  I've replaced the batteries a long time ago and just recently pulled them and wired a 7805 in place so its just line powered.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: gearhead on December 26, 2015, 06:07:39 am
I have an 8050a like the bottom one.  I've replaced the batteries a long time ago and just recently pulled them and wired a 7805 in place so its just line powered.
I really like that 8050A, good units. But I LOVE the red LEDS on the 8600A. Can see it from across the room.
I''m hoping I can narrow down my RMS Conv. issue and repair it. Everything works but AC volts and mA.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: IconicPCB on December 26, 2015, 07:01:10 am
Is there a specification on the battery option toroidal transformer?
I would like to implement it.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: gearhead on December 27, 2015, 03:08:33 pm
Is there a specification on the battery option toroidal transformer?
I would like to implement it.
I haven't seen that, but there is a thread here thats shows how to delete the battery option.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-8050a-repair/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-8050a-repair/)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: IconicPCB on December 27, 2015, 10:30:50 pm
Gearhead thanks for Your consideration.

I have a NOS 8050 bought on ebay with 120V transformer.

Am looking for a 240V transformer to replace the 120V option. I understand the transformers are like hens teeth.

If the transformer based powersupply were to be replaced by a battery pack what would be the appropriate voltages coming from the battery pack.

I can not measure the rails in the 8050, no way to power it up at the moment.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: edavid on December 28, 2015, 12:22:44 am
If the transformer based powersupply were to be replaced by a battery pack what would be the appropriate voltages coming from the battery pack.

5V, but why not just buy a small transformer?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hot-220V-240V-to-110V-120V-Step-Down-Voltage-Converter-50W-Transformer-Adapter-/351444718689 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hot-220V-240V-to-110V-120V-Step-Down-Voltage-Converter-50W-Transformer-Adapter-/351444718689)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: IconicPCB on December 28, 2015, 12:57:04 pm
VotlageS..plural.

The meter operates on a few rails...  so what would they be?+/-15?+5?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: wiss on December 28, 2015, 03:42:14 pm
If the transformer based powersupply were to be replaced by a battery pack what would be the appropriate voltages coming from the battery pack.

5V, but why not just buy a small transformer?

How about hacking in a USB PowerPack? and a 5V regulator for charging?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on December 28, 2015, 04:56:39 pm
The meter operates on a few rails...  so what would they be?+/-15?+5?

I assume you have a line-powered model.  The battery-powered model (-01 option) has a multi-tapped transformer and runs from a 4.8V NiCd pack via a DC-DC converter.

According to the text of the instruction manual (http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/8050a___imeng0200.pdf),  the transformer has to be replaced in the line-powered model.  Oddly, the schematic shows a multi-tapped transformer, but I checked a 120V unit that I have here and the 100V and 240V pins are indeed no-connect.

I measured this unit and marked the readings on the attached schematic section.  All readings are relative to ground (TP1).  It looks like a small 24VCT transformer would be a reasonable substitute.  For a direct DC supply, I would guess that anything from a +/-12V to +/-15V would probably work OK, since those rails are unregulated and seem to vary widely.  The positive rail load averages 23mA, the negative rail load averages 60mA.  The assymetric load is probably due to powering the CMOS logic between -5V and ground.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: eugenenine on December 30, 2015, 01:27:45 am
Mine seemed to be a little different from that thread.  Mine would only power the meter from battery even with good cells.  The charge circuit went to the battery packs when the meter was off and when on the battery was connected to the meter.  So after a few hours of use the batteries would get drained and you had to switch off to charge.  Reading the other thread it seems that theirs would still charge the batteries while the meter was in use.

I just pulled out their regulator and batteries and soldered in my own 5v regulator going into the switch where the batteries used to be connected.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: tautech on December 30, 2015, 07:14:44 am
A reply in another thread by drtaylor that should be linked to from this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8060a-dual-fuses-bad-design/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8060a-dual-fuses-bad-design/)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on December 30, 2015, 07:16:37 am
I used to work at Siliconix (a now defunct semiconductor manufacturer) and when there I learned that we were making a custom chip (I think a hybrid analog/digital A/D converter) for Fluke meters.  I had thought they were for the 8060, but I guess not.  DRTaylor, do you have any recollection of what I'm talking about?

Bill, I believe that Siliconix supplied a custom chip used in the 8050 A/D. It had a lot of low leakage analog switches and was used in conjunction with external Op Amps. If I come across any proof of this I'll post it. But this is just a vague memory. I do know that we used a lot of discrete Siliconix J-Fets for low leakage analog switches. Siliconix was another victim of the Vishay plan to rule the world (of discretes)!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: billfernandez on January 01, 2016, 04:56:11 am
Bill, I believe that Siliconix supplied a custom chip used in the 8050 A/D. It had a lot of low leakage analog switches and was used in conjunction with external Op Amps. If I come across any proof of this I'll post it. But this is just a vague memory. I do know that we used a lot of discrete Siliconix J-Fets for low leakage analog switches. Siliconix was another victim of the Vishay plan to rule the world (of discretes)!

That sounds vaguely familiar.  It's kind of nostalgic thinking back to those days  :).
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: eugenenine on January 01, 2016, 03:55:40 pm
Is there a specification on the battery option toroidal transformer?
I would like to implement it.

I wouldn't bother duplicating Fluke's design, they used a simple trickle charger which is why the batteries die after a few years.  Design a proper charger if your going to do it.
Title: Re: How to fix offset error on 8060A
Post by: e-doc on March 05, 2016, 06:51:55 pm
Can you help me please to fix offset error on an old Fluke 8060A?

On shorted input the display shows following offsets:
Code: [Select]
range     offset
200mVDC  -0.14
2VDC     -0.0002
20VDC    -0.18
200VDC   -0.14
1000VDC  -0.14

200mVAC   0.15
2VAC      0.0051
20VAC     0.14
200VAC    0.14
1000VAC   0.14

200Ohm   -0.14
2kOhm    -0.013
20kOhm   -0.11
200kOhm  -0.11
MOhm     -0.07



I found a leaked electrolytic capacitor (C12, 10uF, 16V) and the socket of the MAC contaminated with electrolyte.
I replaced C12 and the socket with new ones, cleaned the area arround the MAC and C12 using brush and isopropyl.
I also cleaned the PCB around the input connectors with IPA, because the former owner of the DMM resoldered all the input bushings and left some flux residue.

Result: same as before... :-//
I also checked power supply voltage +5.2V, -5.1V, 3.15V, bandgap 1.24V - looking good so far.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: lowimpedance on March 06, 2016, 11:05:05 pm
Just a thought, what about the MAC chip itself needing a IPA clean if its original socket was contaminated!. (you did IPA the area where the leaking cap was too ?).
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: e-doc on March 07, 2016, 01:39:26 am
Quote
what about the MAC chip itself needing a IPA clean if its original socket was contaminated!
The gold plated pins looked OK, no visable contamination at the MAC at all.
Only one contact spring of the socket was colored darker than the remaining ones.
Maybe I should bath the MAC completely (?). I just don't want to take it out of the socket, because it was tight to insert the gold plated precision socket.
Quote
(you did IPA the area where the leaking cap was too ?).
Of course. I found some green "copper rust" at the PCB under the leaked cap.
After removing the dirt mechanically and by IPA, I resoldered the PCB tracks around the spot to remake their tin-coating. Then I IPA-brushed the whole area (MAC and C12) again.
After replacing the socket and C12 I IPA-brushed it twice.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: krivx on March 07, 2016, 08:04:08 am
My 8060A's MAC needed a couple of IPA soak-and-drying runs before the residual readings decreased to zero.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: e-doc on March 07, 2016, 09:38:43 am
Can I sink the whole PCB (including switches and buzzer) in IPA without damage?
What about the grease on the switch contacts?
I can use an ultrasonic bath too.
Title: Re: How to fix offset error on 8060A
Post by: e-doc on March 11, 2016, 03:36:53 pm
I renewed another electrotylic cap (10uF / 16V / C21, not leaked but only remaining 3uF), removed the MAC from the socket and washed it in IPA.
I think, it ist much better now, but the problem is not completely solved (-> 2VAC range).
Code: [Select]
range     offset
200mVDC  -0.01 to 0.00
2VDC     -0.0001 to 0.0000
20VDC    -0.001 to 0.000
200VDC   -0.01 to 0.00
1000VDC  -0.1 to 0.0

200mVAC   0.00
2VAC      0.0030 to 0.0045, depending on mechanical tension on the input bushings? (not really reproducable)
20VAC     0.000 to 0.001
200VAC    0.01
1000VAC   0.0

200Ohm    0.00
2kOhm    -0.0001 to 0.0000
20kOhm   -0.001 to 0.000
200kOhm  -0.01 to 0.00
MOhm     -0.0001 to 0.0000


Trying to clean the 2V and 20V range switches (S5, S6) by IPA did not help anyway.

In the end cleaning of the insulation inside the case bottom solved the problem perfectly (I thought, see PS below...).

See manual chapter 5-7:

Quote
                        Caution
Do not touch or contaminate the plastic insulator that is attached to the inside of the case bottom.
When the instrument is assembled the insulator makes contact with the leads on the bottom of the main pcb.
Contaminants could cause undesirable conduction paths.
If the insulator becomes contaminated, clean with isopropyl alcohol.

BTW: What an excellent "instruction manual" http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/8060a___imeng0300.pdf (http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/8060a___imeng0300.pdf). :-+
IMHO better than most of todays "service manuals"...

PS:
The failure came back this morning  (never ending story?).    :palm:

Up to 150 digits offset in the 2VAC range on shorted input.
The display changes on pressing the case top and back together or slightly pressing the range buttons up or down (in front or back direction).

In the end (?) cleaning of the area inside the plastic case around the input bushings solved the problem (let's see how long...).
 



Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Johnny2Bad on May 19, 2016, 02:37:50 am
To Dr Taylor:

Naturally I found this thread extremely interesting reading, and I don't own an old Fluke multimeter (same as many others, couldn't afford one, but now own an 87-V).

In any case, I was intrigued by your early posts whereby you noted that you designed the 8060 specifically with features useful for someone interested in using the meter with audio measurements in mind, and that you did this because of your own interest in audio circa late 70's / early 80's.

while acknowledging that it's clearly off-topic, I was wondering if we could coax you to elaborate a bit on your interest in audio at the time you were crafting the unit that would eventually become the production 8060 series meters?

I promise to respect the thread (and hope others will as well) and keep the off-topic commentary to the minimum (by that I mean after this post, to zero), but would love to read one post from you on the subject.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: BMack on May 19, 2016, 04:25:06 am
Great thread, loved reading through it. I did have a question I was going to start a thread over but it seems more fitting here, so thanks for the recent BUMP. I found a Fluke D 800 recently and was curious how old it was, I can't even come up with a good guess. I don't know what I'd do with it but for some reason I'm drawn to buy it.

This is not the same meter and not my pic but it's a pic of the same model.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on May 19, 2016, 04:31:49 am
I found a Fluke D 800 recently and was curious how old it was, I can't even come up with a good guess.
Likely 1980 as per

http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php?topic=71868.0;wap2 (http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php?topic=71868.0;wap2)

Chuck at Fluke talks about the D800 at

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/sgen/community/fluke-news-plus/articlecategories/rd/chuck-checks-out-forums-on-test-equipment (http://www.fluke.com/fluke/sgen/community/fluke-news-plus/articlecategories/rd/chuck-checks-out-forums-on-test-equipment)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: macboy on May 19, 2016, 05:14:38 pm
I know this thread is talking mainly about old Fluke handhelds, but I recently acquired a nice old bench meter, a Fluke 8505A. I don't know the exact manufacture date, but the first printing of the manual goes back to 1983 (33 years ago). This is a 6.5/7.5 digit meter (only 10 VDC range can do 7.5 digit) that is a full width, 3U height rack-mount beast that is as deep as it is wide and weighs just short of a metric-holy-crap-tonne. It uses what Fluke described as "Recirculating Remainder A/D Conversion" or "R2 A/D". That's essentially a 5-bit + sign SAR ADC (five bits!), from which the remainder (error) is sampled, amplified, and fed back for conversion a total of 4 times (in addition to the original conversion of the input itself). The result is a 24 bit (23+sign) conversion. The instrument does >500 of these 24 bit samples/second, and to obtain a noise-free 7th digit, you need to set up each reading to average 128 or more samples, which gives you no more than a couple readings per second. Mine has the Ohms, AC RMS, and GPIB options (yes only DC volts is standard) but is missing the current shunt option that was originally installed. Still a bargain at 100 Canadian pesos (~$75 USD). The manual is typical for 80's era test equipment, having 315 glorious pages full of operating and service info including detailed theory of operation, block diagrams, exploded views, PCB component placement, parts lists, troubleshooting guides, and all-important complete schematics.

If interested, the description of the R2 A/D Converter starts on page 87 (of 315) in the manual downloadable from Fluke (http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/8505a___imeng0200.pdf) (8.3 MB).

I'll try to get a pic up later today.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: BMack on May 20, 2016, 12:52:26 am
I found a Fluke D 800 recently and was curious how old it was, I can't even come up with a good guess.
Likely 1980 as per

http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php?topic=71868.0;wap2 (http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php?topic=71868.0;wap2)

Chuck at Fluke talks about the D800 at

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/sgen/community/fluke-news-plus/articlecategories/rd/chuck-checks-out-forums-on-test-equipment (http://www.fluke.com/fluke/sgen/community/fluke-news-plus/articlecategories/rd/chuck-checks-out-forums-on-test-equipment)

You are one of the most helpful people I've ever come across on any forum, you are great at finding info and finding helpful links. Thank you for this and the other thread  :-+
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Robomeds on May 20, 2016, 03:42:52 am
I found a Fluke D 800 recently and was curious how old it was, I can't even come up with a good guess.
Likely 1980 as per

http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php?topic=71868.0;wap2 (http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php?topic=71868.0;wap2)

Chuck at Fluke talks about the D800 at

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/sgen/community/fluke-news-plus/articlecategories/rd/chuck-checks-out-forums-on-test-equipment (http://www.fluke.com/fluke/sgen/community/fluke-news-plus/articlecategories/rd/chuck-checks-out-forums-on-test-equipment)

You are one of the most helpful people I've ever come across on any forum, you are great at finding info and finding helpful links. Thank you for this and the other thread  :-+

Second the above!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drdanke on July 25, 2016, 10:10:48 pm
Thought I would share some pictures of my new "old" meter..  I purchased it from a local estate sale for $5.  Fluke 8060A in unused condition.  Absolutely mint in box with case.  So far, I put a fresh battery in it, and tested all functions, and everything is spot on.  It's really surprising how accurate these can be after all of these years.  I haven't opened it up yet to check the caps, but with it working perfect, I will probably wait a bit until I replace them.  I was going to sell it and use the funds to buy a brand new meter... because "newer" is ALWAYS better, right?  Then I found this thread, and found out how good of a meter this really is.  Needless to say, I've fallen in love with it, and really feel bad I even had a thought of selling it to buy something "newer"...  Enjoy the pictures!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on July 25, 2016, 10:32:06 pm
I purchased it from a local estate sale for $5.  Fluke 8060A in unused condition.  Absolutely mint in box with case.
Awesome deal.  :-+

Quote
I haven't opened it up yet to check the caps, but with it working perfect, I will probably wait a bit until I replace them.
While the outside is in mint condition, I wouldn't assume the insides are the same.  I urge you to take it out and closely examine the bottom of the capacitors which is where they leak in these 8060As.  They could have already leaked if the meter was stored in a hot environment (attic with window, sunny year round weather, 45+C in Arizona, etc).
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: pascal_sweden on July 25, 2016, 10:35:40 pm
They don't make such beautiful multimeters anymore! You are very lucky!
I am going to look out for this model as well from now on! :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on July 25, 2016, 10:55:52 pm
I purchased it from a local estate sale for $5.  Fluke 8060A in unused condition.  Absolutely mint in box with case.
I hate you.  >:D

Judging by the condition of the box, carrying case, and the fact that the probes are newer style, this one is probably one of the last sold, which was well into the 90s.  The caps may very well be just fine, but an inspection wouldn't hurt.

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: lowimpedance on July 25, 2016, 11:44:04 pm
Soo shiny, what a beauty..... almost to good to use  :D.
Lucky bugga enjoy.

Seriously though as has been suggested do check those caps, would be a crying shame to have such a minty outside with a ruined inside.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Enigma-man on July 26, 2016, 08:34:23 pm
I have an 8500A with only the voltage option.  Last year, around this time, I put in an AC filter module because RFI made it unusable.
If I turned on my Brunelle function generator, the Fluke went crazy.  Solved that problem after the filter was added.
After a period of time, totally random, the display would go blank. Turning the power off and on restored operation. Sometimes
it would work for minutes other times I could leave it on for days without a problem.
My controller had 2708 eproms on it and they drew a lot of power.  The eprom PCB was burned where the regulator was soldered to the board.
There was no heatsink and no room for one either.  The regulator was temporarily mounted on the side chassis to act as a heatsink.
I began to have fears of the 2708's losing their data or one failing.  I had enough unused ones to reprogram, but no 2708 programmer.
There was an Apparat programmer that I had from my old TRS-80 Model III and Model 4.  I tried firing up a Model III but the diskettes were
probably NFG or maybe the disk drive was at fault. Needless to say, wasted time and going back to TRS-DOS wasn't going to happen.
All that knowledge went out of my head as I needed to make room for PC related stuff and later the insidious and vile Windows 95.
I remembered that I had converted a Rad Shack CoCo 1 as an eprom programmer in the late 80's.  Apparently, I was smart enough to have a sticker
that read "exec 49152" still attached.  All I needed was a monitor to hook up to it.  No CGA/EGA/VGA was going to cut it.  It was composite video.
At this point I should have found a DeLorean, Marty McFly and the Doc to go back to 1988 when all this old sh*t worked and I knew what to do with it...
I managed to find an old Panasonic 9 inch (22.86 cm for us metric guys).  It worked and I was ready to read and program some 2708's.
Then I had a brilliant idea. Scrap the 2708's and put in 2716 or 2732 single 5 volt units.  Modifying the PC board was a piece of cake and within
hours I was reading in the 2708's and programming the replacement 2732's.  I didn't have enough 2716's.  It took time to erase the 2732's and some were
faulty, but in the end I was successful.  I plugged in the controller and turned on the power.  It worked.
The 8500A still has a problem.   So far I have replaced some cmos and 74LS series chips and even the 8080A CPU with no success.
This problem was present before I did the eprom modification so I know it isn't that.  Without other boards to plug in, I'll have to live with it until another comes along.
I saw on either the first or second page an 8500A had its controller die and the owner parted with it.  I think that was a few years before I got mine so if I was a member
here I would have shaken my head and said "Too bad for the 8500A" and moved to the next posting in the thread.
Anyway, the 8500A 2708's are in an antistatic tube in case someone out there may need one.
 
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Excavatoree on July 27, 2016, 01:17:46 am
Awesome find, drdanke.   I'll be a third voice  urging  you to take Retiredcaps' advice.  I thought "these are fine I don't see any leakage"  but I removed the capacitors as his insistence.   I'm glad I did.    The board damage occurs below the capacitor and is almost impossible to see.   

Yours is so nice, I'd have for you to not catch a problem when it's easy to fix. 
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on July 27, 2016, 02:33:38 am
@Excavatoree

You and your Fluke staircase photo got a shoutout on Dave's eevcomment #1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgtooEtk9R4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgtooEtk9R4)

I can't find the exact time index right now for it.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Gromit on August 20, 2016, 02:32:07 pm
What a great post.  I have used Fluke meters for a long time, but my personal meters are a Fluke D804 and an 89IV.  I recently dug a Fluke 8808A out of the recycle bin at work to see if I could repair it, but it has serious issues which is likely why it was there to begin with.  I have tried to find schematics (I know, unlikely) to no avail and troubleshooting without them is not a simple task.   |O  If anyone has advice, opinions etc. I'm listening.

I bought my Fluke D804 back in 1981 or 1982, then, I think, a year or so later Fluke quit selling that meter, at least it seemed that way to me.  Does anyone know How the D804 compared to the other Fluke's at that time?  Was it a short lived meter?  A Google search located a PDF of Popular Electronics Sept. 1981 with an add for the Fluke D804.  In the same issue was an add for 8" floppy disks and an article on the 8080A processor!!

Well, I still have my D804 in pristine condition with the original leads and I still use it when I need a second or third meter.  I also continue to use the B&K Model 177 VTVM I bought in the 70's when I worked at a TV repair shop when I was a kid to help finance my electronics hobby.  Yep, those were the days!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on October 15, 2016, 03:57:49 am
I occasionally get asked about replacement parts for 8060A's. I'm combining two queries I recently received here to help anybody in the same boat.

Question1:  In this thread, Findm-Keepm suggests that these SPH resistors
http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/414/SPH-SPF-461183.pdf (http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/414/SPH-SPF-461183.pdf)
are equivalent to Fluke 8060A 1k ohm 2W fusible resistor."

DRT Answer: No, I don't think the SPH is a good choice to replace the 1K resistors. They are wire wound and the inductance could have an effect on the AC response. The original resistors were good old carbon composition. Terrible in every  way except they are extremely rugged in transient events. The original design did not really have fusible resistors, but carbon comps would always fail open...fusible sort of.

I now recommend the Ohmite OY series, PN OY102KE. These have the surge strength of Carbon Comp, but are constructed of more modern materials. They perform well in an 8060. These are in stock at Mouser. http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Ohmite/OY102KE/?qs=%2fha2pyFaduiyQUi6McZj1pNmp3wbBKbDI%252b3Db0HwOiE%3d (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Ohmite/OY102KE/?qs=%2fha2pyFaduiyQUi6McZj1pNmp3wbBKbDI%252b3Db0HwOiE%3d)

Question2: "I am reviving a few 8060As, and I have a few failed JFETs(Q1).
The originals are Siliconix parts, and I am unable to find a datasheet.  Do you have any insight or info on what characteristics I should look for in a replacement?  Thank you for your time."

DRT Answer: These were low RDS N-Chan Jfets. They were similar to a J106, but selected for Vgs Cutoff of -3 to -4.5V. If you get a few J106 parts, you can select them to make sure they fully cut off when Vgs is no more than -4.5. These are also available at Mouser in the TO-92 package.  http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fairchild-Semiconductor/J106/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv4z0HnGdrLjpo3FY8YkyPvebpfrX4sUEw%3d (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fairchild-Semiconductor/J106/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv4z0HnGdrLjpo3FY8YkyPvebpfrX4sUEw%3d)

J107s would probably work without selecting for Vgs, but the on resistance is a little higher which will slightly shorten battery life. Regardless of which JFET you get, get them quick because TO-92 JFETs are a dying breed.

Question 3: "Please recommend replacement caps"

DRT: As far as those pesky aluminum electrolytics that spew destruction on the PCBs, I believe retiredcaps already covered this topic. I did spend the time a few years ago to select replacements, and will spend time again if I get asked.

And...last but not least... Yes, I still have a few autographed 8060 Original Manuals. If you showed up in the Seattle area, I'd gladly give you one. But I'm just too lazy to try to figure out how to post them out of country, and how I'd get reimbursed for postage (yeah I'm cheap too, the 8060 didn't make this boy rich).

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on November 18, 2016, 03:01:28 am
Modemhead has a new blog entry on the IBM 8060A.  It includes a digikey capacitor shopping list.

http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/ibm-8060aaa-fluke-8060a-refurbish/ (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/ibm-8060aaa-fluke-8060a-refurbish/)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Robomeds on November 21, 2016, 03:52:55 am
Glad to see a new entry on Mr Modemhead's blog! 
Title: Serial numbers on all Flukes Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: saturation on November 21, 2016, 12:21:37 pm
Does anyone know how to decode the serial numbers on the Fluke DMMs?  Are they the same even to the modern ones?

Worse ase, I can guestimate the manufacture date from the date codes on some of the ICs on the board for a ball park figure.  But the serial number should be the best bet.

I hope you all don't find this too much off topic.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: OldTexan on November 22, 2016, 11:40:47 am
I have two Fluke 8520A DMMs. Both work perfectly except for one function, which appears to have the same problem in both instruments. Neither will work properly in the 4-wire ohms function. The 2-wire ohms function more or less works OK.

It appears than no current is being supplied from the 4-wire ohms current source.

I am at my wits end trying to troubleshoot this problem and I am wondering if this forum has in it anyone sufficiently familiar with the 8520A to give me some help. If anyone knows of any common problem with the 4-wire ohms function in the 8520A I would sure like to get into correspondence with that person or those people.
Title: Re: Serial numbers on all Flukes Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: switcher on November 22, 2016, 09:20:27 pm
Does anyone know how to decode the serial numbers on the Fluke DMMs?  Are they the same even to the modern ones?

Worse ase, I can guestimate the manufacture date from the date codes on some of the ICs on the board for a ball park figure.  But the serial number should be the best bet.

I hope you all don't find this too much off topic.

I've been wondering that, too.

Fluke seem to have a group of three digits, then (possibly) zero(s), then another number, say, 3630012, or 4780277.

Its as if the first three digits mean something, then the last four are the serial number ??
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: OldTexan on November 26, 2016, 03:42:04 pm
Is there anyone in this forum who has experience with the Fluke model 8520A DMM? I am having a hellova time trying to fix a problem in one and could sure use some insight from anyone familiar with this model. Thanks.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rsjsouza on November 27, 2016, 08:05:24 pm
OldTexan, you may have some luck contacting the folks in the other thread that talks about the same model. Perhaps they can help you:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/51-fluke-8520a-how-far-does-this-rabbit-hole-go-part-1/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/51-fluke-8520a-how-far-does-this-rabbit-hole-go-part-1/)

There is another thread where someone reports a faulty 8520A, but in this case they were trying to get help from Fluke:
http://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=254389 (http://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=254389)

Good luck in your search!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: jssilva on January 08, 2017, 04:41:54 pm
Hello,

Just registered to thank the many that posted their repairing experiences of the 8060A, namely the creator drtaylor, which helped me a lot reviving the one that I have since 30+ years, that I bought to replace a needle one. This has been a faithful partners of all my designs.

I thought I could give something back by posting my most recent repair experience.

So, I had replaced the electrolytics and cleaned the board with IPA a few times before, always successfully. But this time was different. Since some time, after power on the display either was blank or all segments lit or would just works for a few weeks with a few power recycles in-between.

After reading a lot on this forum, I suspected the elastomeric connecting the main board to the daughter board. With an ohmeter I couldn't come to a conclusion but, by twisting the small board assembly, sometimes I could make it work for some days more.

To make a long story short, filling the solder pads with solder to increase the pressure on the elastomeric didn't work and so I went on to the next solution which was soldering a 0,1" flat-cable connecting both boards and it worked. Well, sort of, intermittently. After further investigation I discovered a solder joint which was not joining, meaning, the solder was just sort of glued to the pad underneath which was completely oxidate. After repairing, all is well now and it will probably outlive this old-timer.

My conclusion is that, if I had found that before, perhaps I wouldn't have to replace the elastomeric by the flat-cable. Hope this can help someone.

Rgds
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Satbeginner on January 17, 2017, 01:40:25 pm
Hello All,

I always love to read about people and how they save the old(er) vintage, but o-so-very-well-build devices.
I too have some Fluke meters that I still love and use: for outdoor things I have this 77 in the rubber case, I am pretty sure this thing will never break. Only needs a new battery every few years.

Now for my other (sad!!) story: I managed to buy a Fluke 45 somebody pulled from his bench, and the Vacuum Display now is gone.....
The glass tube, where during manufacturing the vacuum is created, broke off.

My humble question is: is there anybody out there who did an replace of such a display because it went dim, and still has the old, dim one lying around?

It would be a great help bringing this old meter back to life, obviously I will pay for shipping and other costs.

Update: I am in the process of replacing the VFD by 7-segment LED displays now.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-45-vfd-display-broken/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-45-vfd-display-broken/)

Un saludo,

Satbeginner (Leo)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: elecdonia on February 11, 2017, 09:46:34 pm
For many years I've been a huge fan of the 1970's and 1980's vintage Fluke bench multimeters that have LED displays.
I gradually built up a large collection of 8600A 4.5 digit and 8800A 5.5 digit multimeters.  I use them every day.

About half of my 8600A multimeters are the battery-powered option.  Note:  Always replace faulty batteries in the 8600A with real NiCd cells.  The 8600A battery charging circuit is very crude.  It isn't compatible with NiMH cells.  Also the 8600A won't work unless the 4 size D NiCd cells are all installed and functional.

I've been quite pleased with the stability and reliability of these meters.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Muttley Snickers on February 11, 2017, 10:01:29 pm
There is nothing better than seeing meters which are all in complete agreement with each other.   :-+ :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: fremen67 on March 12, 2017, 11:16:02 pm
Hello,
I recently bought a Fluke 8840A and I am trying to fix it. I followed the manual and after some tests, it seems that u303 is bad. It is marked "Fluke 700013" and is described in the manual as a quad analog switch. Does anyone knows if it is a rebranded IC or a real specific Fluke one?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on April 29, 2017, 02:15:16 am
To all 8060 aficionados: I'm retiring from my corporate job and starting a consulting business. While I was cleaning out my office I came across all kinds of material that I wrote and/or accumulated when the 8060 first came out. I found a write up I did for hidden features of the 8060, and the original release article that was heavily edited before it made it into the magazines. I have articles in German. Anyway, if anyone cares, I can scan these and post them once I unpack my boxes. I was hoping to find some long lost 8060 parts in the lab, but no luck there. I have original user guides, but while working I was too lazy to post them to anyone. So once I'm settled into retirement life, I'll make an effort to ship out manuals to those who want them, also signed if you want. All I ask is you to cover the shipping costs. Most interesting to me was I had a copy of the IBM invoice where they bought 1000s of 8060s. It was the biggest order in Fluke history at the time. No, I got nothing but an attaboy from the high mucky mucks (John Fluke Sr amongst them). But that's a story I've already told.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: coromonadalix on April 29, 2017, 03:23:58 am
send them to k04bb  for archival purposes and availability,  it helped me a lot in the past
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: helius on April 29, 2017, 03:32:54 am
Hi Drtaylor, and thanks for sharing your deep knowledge of these instruments. I acquired an 8060A for myself after reading this thread. It was sold to me as broken, but all that was required to fix it was opening the case and brushing off some dust.

You mentioned in an earlier post that you specified low-leakage electrolytics from Panasonic. Do specific capacitors in the design require low leakage (like less than 15 uA)? I ask because when cleaning my unit (with 1995 date codes), I saw that all of the aluminum caps are Nippon Chemi-Con, and the one associated with the Fluke/Motorola RMS chip, C19, is a "LL" or "LLA" type with maximum leakage of 1.5 uA. None of the capacitors in my 8060A have leaked, but after 22 years I think I will replace them, as long as they remain within the design specs. I have to clean the board in any case, as just handling it with my fingers has increased the drift and ratio test discrepancy.

I was a bit surprised to see that the custom RMS chip was still being produced in 1995, as you stated that it became obsolete before that. Another curiosity is that in my meter, one of the capacitors that is present in earlier units, C28, has been left unpopulated. I don't have a schematic for that version, but it seems connected with the ADC supply circuit. It looks like Fluke decided it wasn't needed!

Thanks!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: BravoV on April 29, 2017, 03:51:22 am
send them to k04bb  for archival purposes and availability,  it helped me a lot in the past

+1, he is the one that is so dedicated on archival, drtaylor, please don't just send out these gems randomly to anyone who asked it.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: whitevamp on April 29, 2017, 04:25:19 am
was just searching ebay and came across theses little gem's.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLUKE-METER-8060A-TRIPLETT-WIGGY-ALTEK-AMPROBE-MICRONTA-MULITMETER-TEST-/192098175862?hash=item2cb9f18b76:g:CCwAAOSwEzxYaoO3 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLUKE-METER-8060A-TRIPLETT-WIGGY-ALTEK-AMPROBE-MICRONTA-MULITMETER-TEST-/192098175862?hash=item2cb9f18b76:g:CCwAAOSwEzxYaoO3)
and
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-x35-Fluke-8060-8020-8062-8024-8022-8012-A-B-True-RMS-Digital-Multimeter-POR-/332105624040?hash=item4d5309a9e8:g:9AgAAOSwnHZYR0xY (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-x35-Fluke-8060-8020-8062-8024-8022-8012-A-B-True-RMS-Digital-Multimeter-POR-/332105624040?hash=item4d5309a9e8:g:9AgAAOSwnHZYR0xY)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: babysitter on April 29, 2017, 08:36:13 am
Documents in german? I offer to write "executive summaries", full transcriptions might be possible but I will not sink unlimited time into it. But a ES is better than nothing, right? :)

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: vindoline on April 29, 2017, 04:32:50 pm
Congratulations on your retirement! :-+
Would love to see the document on "hidden features" when you have a chance.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 29, 2017, 05:43:52 pm
I’d also like to offer my help with translating german documents to english.

In the last month, I got my hands on three meters in beautiful condition that got added to the 'collection': 8020B, 8060A and 8050A.
The 8060A needed a little love, but now all three agree and work perfectly.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on April 29, 2017, 08:39:42 pm
Documents in german? I offer to write "executive summaries", full transcriptions might be possible but I will not sink unlimited time into it. But a ES is better than nothing, right? :)
Hey babysitter and frozenfrogz. Thanks for the offer, but I believe the articles I have in German were just translations of the US articles. Once I post them you can do a comparison and see if any of it is worth translating.

I'll post the hidden features writeup early next week. Some of these are well known already, but this writeup summarizes them nicely.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on April 30, 2017, 09:40:14 am
I have a lazy owner question re my late 90s mint Fluke 8060A, still kicking and up to spec 20+ years later   :-+

If the caps are slightly leaking at the bottom with no signs of visible invasive creeping corrosion yet, would it be worth giving that bottom area a few forced shots of canned isopropyl alcohol to wash out the area and put off the cap change hangman for another day?

i.e. even though the caps may go south gradually, will the meter's spec still be ok, as it has been after a hose off?

Will the meter need calibration after a careful capacitor change with same values?

Is it mission critical to use replacement capacitors of same type with standard temp 85?
or upgrade with 105 degrees, Low ESR, No ESR, roulette wheel ESR, etc

You guessed it, I'm lazy   :phew:
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 30, 2017, 10:33:39 am
Maybe this is a little OT, but can someone give me a hint to why my 8050A makes a gentle ’tick’ noise every couple of minutes? Is this normal, or should I investigate?

THX, Frederik
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on April 30, 2017, 05:47:57 pm
If the caps are slightly leaking at the bottom with no signs of visible invasive creeping corrosion yet, would it be worth giving that bottom area a few forced shots of canned isopropyl alcohol to wash out the area and put off the cap change hangman for another day?
If the caps are leaking from the bottom now, change them NOW.

Quote
Will the meter need calibration after a careful capacitor change with same values?
It is unlikely the meter will need calibration once you change the capacitors.  I replaced mine in the 8060A and did not require calibration.

Quote
Is it mission critical to use replacement capacitors of same type with standard temp 85?
Modemhead's blog has a list of 105C capacitors.

http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/ibm-8060aaa-fluke-8060a-refurbish/ (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/ibm-8060aaa-fluke-8060a-refurbish/)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on April 30, 2017, 06:43:05 pm
You guessed it, I'm lazy   :phew:

Get yourself a cheap desoldering station! Since I bought one last week, I don’t even know how I could live without one the last couple of years...
That way – even if you are lazy – changing the caps will be done in no time :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on April 30, 2017, 11:57:24 pm
Thanks for the replies and advice gents   :-+

I have a desoldering gun which comes out for jobs that need better and quicker results than wick, pump and ouch methods.

I didn't want to make work for myself changing out parts on a meter that works fine and may not have cap leakage issues at all = yet. 

I'm hoping I got one of the last made ones with ummm.. better batch quality caps (wishful thinking?) 

After seeing the cool fixit work by Mr. ModemHead at   http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/ibm-8060aaa-fluke-8060a-refurbish/ (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/ibm-8060aaa-fluke-8060a-refurbish/)    I will pull the 8060A apart asap, take a good look inside and see what the deal is.
 

---------------


@ frozenfrogz

I have a mains operated 240 volt Fluke 8050A I was using just a few days ago, and verify it's still doing its job properly etc and have never noticed any "gentle ’tick’ noise every couple of minutes"

I'll get it out later today to check for that, and reply back.

Edit:   No 'tick' noise here, just a wee small transformer hum when held up close, and no relays that I can see inside.

What switch mode/s or conditions does it do the ticking business? Is yours a mains or battery operated type? If it's a battery type perhaps it's a charging/ switching sound?   just guessing  :-//

Mine is surprisingly still up to spec on all ranges, but not sure if the RMS AC reading 'may' be a few volts off compared with other RMS meters.
Difficult to verify which meter is the spec winner when using slightly flat top 240 volt mains power as a reference/comparison.
I'll have to do it with a function gen and see how my meters really fare one day. 

-----------

Edit: My 8050A reads about 2 to 3 volts higher when in the 750v AC range, when measuring MAINS voltages above 200v. It may be within close spec anyway at that range and waveform response.
In all the other AC ranges (200v and below) the readings match up closely with other verified meters.
It's not worth a cal or hunting down an internal pot to tweak, when all I do is subtract 2 to 3 volts from the display when in that highest 750v range, if necessary (not).

The 8050A is THE easiest piece of gear to access afaik if anything needs attention. One rear screw magically holds it all together.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on May 01, 2017, 05:07:16 am
Opened the 8060A, and absolutely spotless inside.

All the  -guilty till proven innocent-  electrolytic capacitors are Nichicon brand btw, they are the originals and look like they were installed last week!  :o

The entire board and parts are super clean, no evidence of any leakage, discoloration, bloat, tarnish or crust.

It's literally like a new meter, still holding perfect spec, no change since the last time I opened it 15-ish years ago, to see if I got my moneys worth 

Sometimes I get lucky, though not as often as I would like with electronics, sigh...    :-/O

--------------------

Serial Number 657xxxx

PCB markings:
8060A  3001

Revision L

544

:-//
-------------------



Some quick handheld shaky p0rn pics of the 8060A:   

Note the improvised 87-ish yellow holster and weather tape over the readout (not contacting the LCD) to protect the meter,
with side cutouts for power switch and wall wart, and gives it that bonus 'Fluke' pro look too, lol     :-DMM 

The last two  'poor man's cal lab'  photos are both 8060A and 189 being fed DC volts from the 715 Calibrator,
the results are good enough for harsh Australian conditions  :-+

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: helius on May 01, 2017, 11:56:45 am
Electro Detective:
There is additionally an electrolytic capacitor underneath the shield. I expect you will find it is a different type from the others.
There was also, in earlier units, another under the shield near the R15 pot. I can see that it was left unpopulated.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on May 01, 2017, 03:06:03 pm
@ frozenfrogz

I have a mains operated 240 volt Fluke 8050A I was using just a few days ago, and verify it's still doing its job properly etc and have never noticed any "gentle ’tick’ noise every couple of minutes"

I'll get it out later today to check for that, and reply back.

Edit:   No 'tick' noise here, just a wee small transformer hum when held up close, and no relays that I can see inside.

What switch mode/s or conditions does it do the ticking business? Is yours a mains or battery operated type? If it's a battery type perhaps it's a charging/ switching sound?   just guessing  :-//

Mine is surprisingly still up to spec on all ranges, but not sure if the RMS AC reading 'may' be a few volts off compared with other RMS meters.
Difficult to verify which meter is the spec winner when using slightly flat top 240 volt mains power as a reference/comparison.
I'll have to do it with a function gen and see how my meters really fare one day. 

It’s mains only, no batteries inside, the 'tick' appears when it is plugged in. There is no difference in the different mode selections and whether the unit is powered on, or off.
I will take it apart in the next couple of days and patiently wait for the 'ticks' to appear and localize its origin.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on May 01, 2017, 04:28:54 pm
I have scanned a write-up I did long ago that explains some hidden features of the 8060A. The illustrations aren't there, but there is sufficient text to explain them. I think these all work...there's always a possibility that the software was modified to eliminate these special features. I also scanned a summary of power up features which shows the ratio mode and the switch test - Useful for troubleshooting.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on May 01, 2017, 04:43:56 pm
It’s mains only, no batteries inside, the 'tick' appears when it is plugged in. There is no difference in the different mode selections and whether the unit is powered on, or off.
Can't hear anything from any of mine.  (My hearing is not the best, though.)  Both battery and non-battery models use low-voltage power switching, so maybe something to do with the transformer.

Or....  GET OUT NOW!   :o
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: saturation on May 01, 2017, 05:18:12 pm
Thanks Dr T, love those those old typewritten app notes


I have scanned a write-up I did long ago that explains some hidden features of the 8060A. The illustrations aren't there, but there is sufficient text to explain them. I think these all work...there's always a possibility that the software was modified to eliminate these special features. I also scanned a summary of power up features which shows the ratio mode and the switch test - Useful for troubleshooting.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on May 01, 2017, 06:18:57 pm
Re 8050 Tick

I too don't hear anything on my 8050 (at 120VAC). I would suspect intermittent arcing in the AC supply components which are aggravated by the 240VAC typical European mains. The transformer might have a worn winding that arcs occasionally causing a tick. Check all input components and look for carbonized PCB areas. I've also known old electrolytic caps to tick, caused by arcing across the insulator, but that's less likely. If it's the transformer, you should be able to observe a glitch monitoring the secondary AC across the bridge. If the transformer is bad you're probably out of luck for fixing it.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: helius on May 01, 2017, 08:03:05 pm
Hi Drtaylor, one more question:
In the switch test diagnostic of the 8060A, the buttons each have a binary value when depressed, 8, 4, 2, and 1, respectively. The sum of the depressed buttons is displayed, so dB+REL displays a 5 for example. But these can sum together to higher than 9: in hexadecimal notation, you would still have just one digit, but it goes to 0xA, 0xB, etc.
The 8060A doesn't display "A" on the 7-segment display, it looks more like "o". Was this o symbol used for any actual purpose? It seems strange for its only purpose in life to be a diagnostic!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on May 01, 2017, 08:54:45 pm
All the  -guilty till proven innocent-  electrolytic capacitors are Nichicon brand btw, they are the originals and look like they were installed last week!  :o
The date code on your main IC is 0696 suggesting June 1996.  So your 8060A isn't as old as some reported here with leaking capacitors.  In Modemhead's blog, his main IC is date coded 8244 suggesting 1982 week 44.

So it is possible that as the 8060A was nearing year 2000 that Fluke starting using name brand capacitors like Nichicon.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on May 01, 2017, 08:55:28 pm
Thanks Dr T, love those those old typewritten app notes

Hey Saturation (great handle), That document was actually written in a word processor that ran on a PDP11 minicomputer.  It was printed on a shared dot-matrix printer that you had to walk to the IT department to pick up. I have forgotten the name of the software (maybe Word 11), but it was typical for the time. You had to embed control characters to do things like Bold, italic, change size, change font, etc. Definitely not WYSIWYG. But I wrote all the original text for the 8060 and 8062 on that word processor.

During my packing up I have found documents that include the original specifications write-up, a competitive analysis, an interesting (at least to me) document that was written to describe the new MAC IC. I recall I wrote this because there was an effort to simplify the MAC which would have cut out several features. Luckily that never happened. I'll attach that document since I have it here in my hand. I also found field sales manuals and a bunch of the original sales cut sheets. I'll post those as well. 8050 owners might enjoy the specs comparison in the 8050-8060 Sales Brochure. Early 80s tech at its finest!

I had to split up the 8050-8060 brochure to fit it under 1MB and still have it readable. PM me if you want a higher resolution file.

I remain amazed that there is so much interest in this old stuff.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on May 01, 2017, 09:32:37 pm
Hi Drtaylor, one more question:
In the switch test diagnostic of the 8060A, the buttons each have a binary value when depressed, 8, 4, 2, and 1, respectively. The sum of the depressed buttons is displayed, so dB+REL displays a 5 for example. But these can sum together to higher than 9: in hexadecimal notation, you would still have just one digit, but it goes to 0xA, 0xB, etc.
The 8060A doesn't display "A" on the 7-segment display, it looks more like "o". Was this o symbol used for any actual purpose? It seems strange for its only purpose in life to be a diagnostic!

Sorry helius, the only purpose is to test the switches. It tests the elastomeric rubber switches and the digital poles on the main mechanical switch. So as far as a test goes, it cannot test all the poles of the Centralab switch, only the poles used by the MAC to set mode and A/D range. There was no attempt to use binary combined switches. I believe the 'o' represented an unsupported combination. Remember how small the code space was. I still consider it a miracle of embedded coding. The late great Tom Weismann (RIP dear friend) was the software engineer, and it was all written in 4-bit assembly! Tom and I bounced ideas back and forth how much we could cram in. I only regret we did not have room for more reference impedances like we did in the 8050 and the 8920. But we did cram a lot of stuff in there.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on May 01, 2017, 10:50:00 pm
Re 8050 Tick – I too don't hear anything on my 8050 (at 120VAC).

Now, that I figured out where the sound comes from, I feel a little stupid. It turns out, the 8050A did not produce the 'tick' :scared:
-> It is coming from my SP-1010DR desoldering station! :palm:

Since I added the 8050A, I had to also add a multi-outlet power strip to have enough free sockets for the meter and some other gear. The 8050A sits right above the SP-1010DR, which was only plugged in when in use (I had to unplug some other device when desoldering, because of to few power outlets). Now with the power strip in place, all instruments are plugged in at the same time and I never suspected the SP-1010DR to be the culprit.
But anyway: Thank you for your suggestions. Hunting down what makes it tick will continue...

Also: Thank you for sharing the old documents. I really enjoy looking into special bonus information like this, plus the way the headlines and texts are set in these old brochures are very appealing :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on May 02, 2017, 04:45:04 am
Ha, been there a few times, playing the 'what's that NEW noise?!' game..  |O 

oh well, at least you know for sure that the ticking doesn't mean time may be running out on the 8050

 :palm:
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on May 02, 2017, 08:07:50 am
@ helius, thanks for the heads up, I was multitasking on a few fixits and forgot to peek under the shield before re-assembly. Will get onto it asap and add a couple more photos.

Forgot to add, I ever so gently isoprop cleaned the 8060A board contacts which mate with the 4 rubber buttons,
and a slight dab on the small rubber strip on the display, and its board contacts.

I think the meter 'seems'  a wee bit quicker or more responsive now (?!)   :-//

It still has killa specs on all ranges and easily keeps pace compared with it's cocky nephews 189 and 289    :-+


EDIT: added 'under the shield' pic to the photos above, there is an orange Nichicon cap residing there, and no capacitor issue  :phew:

 
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on May 02, 2017, 08:25:13 am
I remain amazed that there is so much interest in this old stuff.

Not at all. The specs of these meters are still competitive with the latest Flukes, 0.05% DC accuracy is better than most new meters on the market today.

The push-button design is interesting, reliability/confidence factor is top-notch. What more could you ask for in a multimeter?

I'd like to own one one day but they're fast turning into expensive collector's items.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on May 02, 2017, 08:31:24 am
Just saw this on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/332105624040 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/332105624040)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=312451;image)

I wouldn't complain if some soul buys that and shares them out to established EEVBLOG members at fair prices.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on May 02, 2017, 10:06:13 am
Whoever scores those meters better bid on a roll of grey duct duck tape too,
the bottom row meters appear to be missing battery covers. 

Honest straight up Ebayer >  "Untested / Offered AS-IS / Parts or Repair Only / Cosmetics As Pictured / Does Not Include Warranty,
WARRANTY - No Warranty / Offered ASIS / Returns Not Accepted"
   :-+

That Ebayer has loads of other cool stuff too
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on May 02, 2017, 12:48:35 pm
Whoever scores those meters better bid on a roll of grey duct duck tape too,
the bottom row meters appear to be missing battery covers. 

Yeah, I noticed that. A couple of them have broken switches as well.

Honest straight up Ebayer >  "Untested / Offered AS-IS / Parts or Repair Only / Cosmetics As Pictured / Does Not Include Warranty,
WARRANTY - No Warranty / Offered ASIS / Returns Not Accepted"
   :-+

you won't be lacking in spare parts when you've got 35 of them to mix/match. I'm sure you could get 20+ good ones.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: idpromnut on May 02, 2017, 02:21:47 pm
MUST. RESIST. THE. TEMPTATION.    :scared:
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on May 02, 2017, 03:11:06 pm
MUST. RESIST. THE. TEMPTATION.    :scared:

It's easy for me to resist because  it would cost a fortune to get them to my country and it I'd have to charge other people a fortune to send them back again.

I'll happily send some hypnotic brain waves your way though. Let's start with this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=312539;image)

They look to be in pretty good condition. Just those 12 are probably worth the asking price.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=312547;image)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: idpromnut on May 02, 2017, 03:35:44 pm
It's easy for me to resist because  it would cost a fortune to get them to my country and it I'd have to charge other people a fortune to send them back again.

It's 115$ USD shipping to me...  ??? I don't think I'm the right person to do this.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on May 02, 2017, 03:46:33 pm
It's easy for me to resist because  it would cost a fortune to get them to my country and it I'd have to charge other people a fortune to send them back again.

It's 115$ USD shipping to me...

Only $115?  :-DD
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: carl_lab on May 02, 2017, 03:50:59 pm
Nice collection, but $600, that's way too much...

1/4 of quantity for 1/4 of price would be much more interesting for me.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: idpromnut on May 02, 2017, 03:56:24 pm
It's easy for me to resist because  it would cost a fortune to get them to my country and it I'd have to charge other people a fortune to send them back again.

It's 115$ USD shipping to me...

Only $115?  :-DD

Fine, it may not be that much considering the volume being shipped.  ::). Who would want one though? Are there enough takers here to take a risk on them? *listens*
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on May 02, 2017, 04:39:31 pm
I guess we could do a sort of 'kickstarter' here on EEVBLOG.

If I can get a few 'pledges' together in PMs and people Paypal me some money then I could buy that lot and divvy them up. Postage at cost (approx 13 Euros to Europe, 21 Euros to USA).

I suspect most people (eg. me) would want the 8060A and there's 12 of them that look in good condition they could work out around $40 each. After that the bench meters...and the rest. It could work out, make me an offer!  :popcorn:

The real problem would be if they decide to sting me for import tax+charges. That could add $10 to every one of those meters and the math starts to break down.  :(

I guess it's really best if somebody from the USA could do this. They can pay a mere $30 shipping (if they live in the right state) and there's zero risk of paying any import tax.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: idpromnut on May 02, 2017, 04:53:21 pm
The real problem would be if they decide to sting me for import tax+charges. That could add $10 to every one of those meters and the math starts to break down.  :(

I guess it's really best if somebody from the USA could do this. They can pay a mere $30 shipping (if they live in the right state) and there's zero risk of paying any import tax.

This is my worry as well. I don't mind doing this (as the shipping seems cheaper for me than to Fungus), but again I would need to see at least a bit of interest (than 2 members) :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Wytnucls on May 02, 2017, 06:06:58 pm
Hardly worth the trouble.
The only ones remotely interesting are the twelve 8060A and the 8062A, with no guarantee that they won't be DOA.
The rest will be near impossible to get rid of.
Rather buy a 8060A that has been refurbished and tested for less than 100$ on eBay, if you're after some measurement nostalgia.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: idpromnut on May 02, 2017, 06:39:23 pm
Hardly worth the trouble.
The only ones remotely interesting are the twelve 8060A and the 8062A, with no guarantee that they won't be DOA.
The rest will be near impossible to get rid of.
Rather buy a 8060A that has been refurbished and tested for less than 100$ on eBay, if you're after some measurement nostalgia.

Indeed, I have an IBM-branded 8060A that I probably paid a /bit/ too much for, but I "needed" one for my collection :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on May 02, 2017, 09:23:26 pm
Well, I couldn't resist a fairly low ball offer, and much to my chagrin, the seller accepted my offer. So I will have a little treasure trove of 8060s. I will fix them with new caps, and start selling them. I might have enough original User Guides for them too (signed if you want). Great first retirement project. Hopefully I can get my buying price back and a little extra. The other 3 1/2 digit devices I'll keep for parts unless they are really clean and in good shape.

I'm kind of mad at my self for this impulse buy. I hope my wife doesn't kill me. I really didn't think the seller would accept my offer. Anyway give me a few weeks and I'll get them refurb'd and cleaned up. However, I do not have a precision AC Calibrator, so other than comparison with my more recently calibrated DMMs, I have no way to trim the AC at frequencies. I have a friend at Fluke that might let me come in and use a high end calibrator.

I'm planning a trip to Europe in Fall or maybe spring, not sure yet. I'm thinking "gift" 8060s might be traded for lodging or tour guides or ???
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on May 02, 2017, 09:36:18 pm
Well, I couldn't resist a fairly low ball offer, and much to my chagrin, the seller accepted my offer.

Sounds like fun!  :-/O

I also saw the bulk offers by that seller on ebay some days ago and initially thought about making an offer for the fun of saving these meters, but the shipping cost and possible import taxes to Germany had me hold back.
Congrats on the future project!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: idpromnut on May 02, 2017, 09:51:34 pm
@drtaylor: I had sent you a PM a while back, and again just recently regarding those user manuals. I would love one, signed and everything!  However, if I must also get a 8060A bundled with it, then I think you would find my arm easy to twist! ;)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bitseeker on May 02, 2017, 10:29:13 pm
Well, I couldn't resist a fairly low ball offer, and much to my chagrin, the seller accepted my offer. So I will have a little treasure trove of 8060s. I will fix them with new caps, and start selling them. I might have enough original User Guides for them too (signed if you want). Great first retirement project. Hopefully I can get my buying price back and a little extra.

Congrats, Dr. T! Who better to save them from destruction? An 8060 rejuvenated by you with autographed User Guide will be right at home in my multimeter collection!

Quote
I'm kind of mad at my self for this impulse buy. I hope my wife doesn't kill me. I really didn't think the seller would accept my offer.

If death is imminent, call it a "retirement transition project". Surely that'll work for a first offense. :-+
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: idpromnut on May 02, 2017, 10:36:30 pm
I'm kind of mad at my self for this impulse buy. I hope my wife doesn't kill me.

Just show her this thread :)  I think the number of people happy that you got them, and that are interested in helping you get "returns on your investment" will make her happy for you :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: tautech on May 02, 2017, 10:49:25 pm
Well, I couldn't resist a fairly low ball offer, and much to my chagrin, the seller accepted my offer. So I will have a little treasure trove of 8060s. I will fix them with new caps, and start selling them. I might have enough original User Guides for them too (signed if you want). Great first retirement project. Hopefully I can get my buying price back and a little extra. The other 3 1/2 digit devices I'll keep for parts unless they are really clean and in good shape.

I'm kind of mad at my self for this impulse buy. I hope my wife doesn't kill me. I really didn't think the seller would accept my offer. Anyway give me a few weeks and I'll get them refurb'd and cleaned up. However, I do not have a precision AC Calibrator, so other than comparison with my more recently calibrated DMMs, I have no way to trim the AC at frequencies. I have a friend at Fluke that might let me come in and use a high end calibrator.

I'm planning a trip to Europe in Fall or maybe spring, not sure yet. I'm thinking "gift" 8060s might be traded for lodging or tour guides or ???
Hat's off to you  :) and the best of luck with these, a very deserved path for them before being put to good use again.  :-+

Keep just one back for free lodgings just out of Auckland if you ever venture to NZ.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: eugenenine on May 02, 2017, 11:28:25 pm
My 8050 needs an 8060 to go with it :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on May 03, 2017, 12:30:00 am
Well, I couldn't resist a fairly low ball offer, and much to my chagrin, the seller accepted my offer. So I will have a little treasure trove of 8060s. I will fix them with new caps, and start selling them. I might have enough original User Guides for them too (signed if you want). Great first retirement project. Hopefully I can get my buying price back and a little extra.

Awesome!

I'm planning a trip to Europe in Fall or maybe spring, not sure yet. I'm thinking "gift" 8060s might be traded for lodging or tour guides or ???
Count me in if you want to come to Spain (with or without meter). Valencia in March is the place to be.


Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: switcher on July 13, 2017, 05:33:05 pm
A question for Mr. Taylor: do you know why some 8800A bench meters have 2no. AA batts for the Ohms ranges pls ?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/anachrocomputer/28302909024 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/anachrocomputer/28302909024)

Discussed here:-

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/wtb-fluke-8800a8810a-ohms-converter-board-with-isolated-dc-dc-supply/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/wtb-fluke-8800a8810a-ohms-converter-board-with-isolated-dc-dc-supply/)

Many thanks !
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on July 16, 2017, 05:51:49 am
If memory serves, I believe the 2 AA board was used instead of a DC-DC due to noise generation and as a way to float the current source. DC-DC converters back then were low frequency and noisy and it was difficult to keep noise out of the sensitive circuits. As techniques and circuits improved, these problems went away (at least if you knew what you were doing). Now days there are far better ways to make floating current sources. But I could be totally wrong about this. I think I have a schematic somewhere and I will try to remember or determine the reasons for that somewhat lame circuit. I'm sure the engineer who designed it (wasn't me) thought it was the bees knees of ohms conversion circuits.

Update on trove of 8060s and other meters. I have had a contract job that should be finished soon. Then my next project is to restore the 8060s. On initial examination, about half of them are somewhat functional. Physically they are in good shape, only one having a kind of ugly case. I have caps to order, but hopefully I will get these going and finished by the end of August.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: WastelandTek on July 16, 2017, 06:43:57 am
what

a

thread!

wow, just, wow

whelp, back to page 5, which is where I made it to before I could no longer contain myself
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: switcher on July 16, 2017, 01:08:35 pm
Thankyou for your reply, Mr. T. much appreciated; I felt sure there was a valid reason, and ofcourse... :-+

And I'd sell my soul to the devil, for the chance of one of your 8060s pretty please :)

If memory serves, I believe the 2 AA board was used instead of a DC-DC due to noise generation and as a way to float the current source. DC-DC converters back then were low frequency and noisy and it was difficult to keep noise out of the sensitive circuits. As techniques and circuits improved, these problems went away (at least if you knew what you were doing). Now days there are far better ways to make floating current sources. But I could be totally wrong about this. I think I have a schematic somewhere and I will try to remember or determine the reasons for that somewhat lame circuit. I'm sure the engineer who designed it (wasn't me) thought it was the bees knees of ohms conversion circuits.

Update on trove of 8060s and other meters. I have had a contract job that should be finished soon. Then my next project is to restore the 8060s. On initial examination, about half of them are somewhat functional. Physically they are in good shape, only one having a kind of ugly case. I have caps to order, but hopefully I will get these going and finished by the end of August.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on July 16, 2017, 08:15:25 pm
And I'd sell my soul to the devil, for the chance of one of your 8060s pretty please :)

Join the queue...  :P
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Neomys Sapiens on July 16, 2017, 10:49:35 pm
So you designed one world-class instrument - congratulations!
Let me tell you the story of MY 8060A! I was about 15 at that time and spent my summer holidays working at a small engineering company which did some pretty advenced stuff in automation and drive controls. I did intend to spend my earnings on a really good multimeter. There was a limited choice, those that I remember were the Keithley 139 and the analogue Unigor6e. I asked my boss, who was quite a grumpy guy, for his opinion. He dismissed the K130 outright, adding that the RMS function is not woth it and that I should keep away from the digital crap, where one doesn't see anything.
It was the year the 8060A came out in Germany. It was announced with a uncustomally flashy ad, showing a guy on a motor scooter loaded with all the instruments that the 8060A was supposed to replace. I showed the data sheet to my boss too. He grumbled to himself for an extended time while reading and then he stated that he doesn't believe it, but if it did what was advertised, then it would be probably the instrument to get.
And so I did. I ordered a 8060A at a whopping 14??.-DM, being so early in the european line, that I actually had to wait for it. It served me well for 20something years and even after aquiring a Fluke87, it was my preferred multimeter for anything communications related work, until it became the victim of an extended fall.
Thanks for the work that was obviously put into that great meter!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: JohnPi on July 23, 2017, 05:43:08 am
This is a wonderful thread -- my story on the 8020A is that I was in high school and had become interested in electronics as a hobby. I used some analog meters (including an affordable Russian 20 µA/V analog meter), set my eyes on a Fluke 8020A (must have been soon after it was released) I saw at a trade show -- I was amazed at the resolution, speed, and elegance of it. I spent all my savings and bought it directly at the show the next day.

I used to take it to school for our physics labs and amazed everyone with its features (including a hidden nS range that was sensitive to 100's of Mohm), high impedance (you could watch a capacitor discharge), and robustness.

It served me well, and understanding how it worked internally was one of the key drivers for getting me further interested in analog electronics (especially the CMOS switch capability, the dual slope ADC of the ICL7106, and the AD636 rms converter which I guessed was in the 8060A which I couldn't afford). I subsequently made a career of designing analog integrated circuits for a major semiconductor company (and its derivatives). The display broke a few years ago and I regrettably discarded it -- moving on to my Fluke 87 and 289.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on July 23, 2017, 07:29:32 am
The display broke a few years ago and I regrettably discarded it -- moving on to my Fluke 87 and 289
Since you live in the USA, ebay usually has a lot of 8020A in various conditions that might help you relive your memories?

Like anything, if you are patient, you may find a good condition one for the price of a movie ticket today.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on July 23, 2017, 09:13:28 am
This is a wonderful thread -- my story on the 8020A is ...

The display broke a few years ago and I regrettably discarded it -- moving on to my Fluke 87 and 289

8020As are unloved and go quite cheap on eBay. People are after the 8060As.

FWIW there's a very nice looking 8060A for sale right now:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/162600324612 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/162600324612)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Octane on July 23, 2017, 09:31:59 am
Hi drtaylor,

Wonderful story. I appreciate you sharing this. I would like to join the queue for one of the 8060A's as well.
It would be a honor to get a signed one from you if there will be one left for me in the end.

Thanks,
Michael
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 09, 2017, 10:46:42 pm
I just scored my first 8060A on eBay. It looks to be in perfect shape, seller says it only had one careful owner.

(nb. It hasn't arrived yet, it's in Germany at the moment...  :(  )

Any advice on common problems to look for? eg. I heard all the electrolytic caps should be replaced, what do people recommend as a replacement?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=340083;image)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 10, 2017, 12:10:36 am
You can use tantalum caps in the 7660 circuit. At the time, 100uF 16V tantalums were larger than the aluminum caps and very expensive. With the lower ESR of a Tantalum you may be able to lower the values some, say to 68uF/16V. However, Aluminums are so much better today. If you buy a high temp 125 deg 5000 hour aluminum cap you would probably last another 30 years with no problems (and cost way less than tants). Just stay away from 85deg 1000 hr crapcaps. A low ESR cap would perform better than the originals. When I have time, I'll make some recommendations for replacement caps. The caps aren't under much stress in the 8060, so it was just a temperature and aging thing that has caused so many 8060s to get contaminated by the caps spewing. I looked at my five 8060s yesterday and saw no evidence of cap failure. That might change when I try to get them operating, but they have had a very easy life in my cool temp garage and not being powered up very often.

This is the post I was looking for earlier. Is Dr.T still around? I haven't seen him for a while.  :(
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bitseeker on August 10, 2017, 01:01:21 am
That's a great looking specimen, Fungus. Congrats!

Leaking caps are the primary issue I recall. Some have dying LCD screens, but you're OK there.

Dr. T. is around. I saw a few posts from him recently. IIRC he's in the middle of a job/project.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: tautech on August 10, 2017, 01:04:53 am
This is the post I was looking for earlier. Is Dr.T still around? I haven't seen him for a while.  :(
You haven't been looking hard enough.  :P

From his profile:
Last Active: Today at 11:13:07 AM (NZ time)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 10, 2017, 01:18:00 am
That's a great looking specimen, Fungus. Congrats!

No manuals or paperwork but the meter looked too good to pass up.  :-DMM

(I'm working on that other stuff)

Leaking caps are the primary issue I recall. Some have dying LCD screens, but you're OK there.

I'm just enjoying the AMP hour podcast with Dr T. telling stories about making these meters.

He says the screen problems are mostly with the 8020A which used American made screens for political reasons. The 8060A screens were made by Sharp and hardly ever die.  :-+

Another tip: Don't touch the PCB. Fingerprints are bad.


Dr. T. is around. I saw a few posts from him recently. IIRC he's in the middle of a job/project.

From his profile:
Last Active: Today at 11:13:07 AM (NZ time)

So I'm just not in the right threads.  :D

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bitseeker on August 10, 2017, 01:21:55 am
Ah, I have not listened to that episode. I'll have to do that.

That's great news about the 8060A screens. I still look forward to buying one of Dr. T's 8060s in due course.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: tautech on August 10, 2017, 01:22:33 am
From his profile:
Last Active: Today at 11:13:07 AM (NZ time)

So I'm just not in the right threads.  :D
He'll spot your question, the longest I've seen him take to reply is a week or so and you probably won't have your 8060A by then anyway.

Good score BTW.  :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on August 10, 2017, 01:23:28 am
Yay, ditched the 5 dollar Wun Hung Tu Lo clay pigeon shoot targets   :clap:   and got a real meter huh?   :popcorn:

Good news and bad news:

If you scored a late 1990s model, it may have the good Nichicon caps already, so the meter is good to go once you verify the specs are ok.

If not, get ready to order a cap set, and prep for a thorough cap spew board clean up.  :-[

Get some quality super glue too, the plastic screw posts may be cracking and fragmenting by now, and need sorting out.

The 14 pages of top info here should be enough to get the ball rolling and parts required, calling Mr Modemhead? 

http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/ibm-8060aaa-fluke-8060a-refurbish/ (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/ibm-8060aaa-fluke-8060a-refurbish/)

This meter is not a straightforward Fluke to pull apart, so be really analytic and careful,
especially when removing/prying up from right to left the internal adjustments shield held by one hidden screw around the middle somewhere.

Warm the meter up a bit with a hairdryer or whatever so plastic bits don't break   |O

...and welcome to the unofficial Fluke 8060A Club     :-+
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 10, 2017, 01:25:03 am
Ah, I have not listened to that episode. I'll have to do that.

https://theamphour.com/180-an-interview-with-dave-taylor-multi-talented-meter-maker/

I still look forward to buying one of Dr. T's 8060s in due course.

Not just any old 8060A for you, eh?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 10, 2017, 01:32:12 am
If you scored a late 1990s model, it may have the good Nichicon caps already, so the meter is good to go once you verify the specs are ok.

That would be good! I really have no idea what vintage it is. Fingers crossed, then.

One thing I've been wondering about is how long these things were on sale. They were launched in 1982 but it seems they were making them well into the 1990s. That's impressive.

Yay, ditched the 5 dollar Wun Hung Tu Lo clay shoot targets and got a real meter huh?

I'm gonna need something to measure capacitance and take to Arduino club.  :popcorn:

...and welcome to the unofficial Fluke 8060A Club     :-+

I've also joined the TEA (http://Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread) thread.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bitseeker on August 10, 2017, 03:13:38 am
https://theamphour.com/180-an-interview-with-dave-taylor-multi-talented-meter-maker/

Thanks for the link!

I still look forward to buying one of Dr. T's 8060s in due course.

Not just any old 8060A for you, eh?

Got to keep the GAS under control somehow.  :-DD
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on August 10, 2017, 04:02:35 am
I just started work on my 8060A restoration project. I have the 8060s from the eBay auction and a few of my own to fix up. My lab is all set up for a production line operation for 15 8060s and one 8062. I'm keeping notes on each one, condition, functional, rev of the assembly and PCB. Several were fully functional. A few just need their LCD connections cleaned. A few turned on but have obvious problems. Only 1 was completely DOA. Only 1 had plating on the LCD, but it was the 8062. Regardless if they were fully functional, I am recapping all of them. I am also cleaning the two elastomeric connectors, the carbon one for the LCD, and the silver filled one that connects the SM4 to the MAC. Also cleaning the PCB patterns that contact the elastomerics.

My process is to take them all apart. Remove the uC assembly. Remove all the loose plastic parts. Then using my $5 Pace MTM100 (Auction at my former company...what a great thing to have), I'm removing all the electrolytic caps. Most came out easily with a application of flux then using the hollow sucking head of the Pace rework station. The ones that were corroded gave more problems, but I managed to get them out with not too much damage. I used all the tricks of the trade, solder sucker (Edsyn), solder wick, and so on. I've gotten through 9 so far.

After the caps are out, I cleaned the boards thoroughly with 99.9% IPA and an acid brush. Then soaked the whole PCA in a glass tray with clean IPA. Then another acid brush scrub and blowing out the IPA with a low heat air gun. Then I put the cleaned assembly aside to dry for a few more hours. I've only recapped three so far for testing. They got a similar cleaning process after the new caps were put in.

As far as the replacement caps, I've decided to use Polymer Aluminums. These have the advantage of lower ESR and higher ripple current (not really necessary for the 8060), but best of all, due to the organic polymer, they will not spew electrolyte. These 8060s should last for another 30 years. I only had one value I could not fit physically in the position. So I went with the Nichicon UTT for the 22uF/16V part. All the rest are Nichicon RS, RNS or RNU types.

All these parts are in stock at Mouser. These all fit the physical diameter, height, and lead pitch of the 8060A PCB. They do have much higher leakage current on paper, but in practice and at the voltages used, the effect on battery life should be minimal. I've got three units recapped now and ready for testing. I will publish the list later after I'm sure there is no ill effect from the added leakage current. But I do think that will not matter. I'm actually hoping the RMS noise floor will be improved with the new 7660 caps.

I've contacted an old friend at Fluke to see if I can use a calibrator so I can tweak them in. I can calibrate the DC ranges with what I have, but I do not have an accurate AC source at 10kHz which is required to trim the AC freq flatness. There's a real possibility that Fluke has policies against this, but my friend is actually the marketing manager for the Calibration group. SO I'm crossing my fingers on that. If I'm unable to trim the AC, I will let prospective buyers know.

In a side note, one of my 8060s is really a prototype unit. It has a ceramic MAC chip, the RMS converter in a socket, and it has several kludges. The constant current output uses a LM334 and a couple of bodged resistors. There's also a couple of jumpers. This very likely is the oldest 8060 around as it is clear I was still fooling with it. My IBM version 8060A also is an early version, with two jumpers, but it has worked well for years. Most of the eBay units were mid to late 80s with a board rev of H and an assembly rev of H. Some were labeled Rev H-1. No idea what the difference was. I did not get any of the late production units that subbed the Analog Device TRMS chip on a daughter board. All have the Fluke designed Motorola BiFet TRMS converters.

I'm done with my G-Job for now, so I hope to finish these up in a couple of weeks. I'll report progress soon.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: WastelandTek on August 10, 2017, 04:19:34 am
a couple pics of your production line would be really neat to see doc
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 10, 2017, 09:44:28 am
I just started work on my 8060A restoration project. I have the 8060s from the eBay auction and a few of my own to fix up. My lab is all set up for a production line operation for 15 8060s and one 8062. I'm keeping notes on each one, condition, functional, rev of the assembly and PCB. Several were fully functional.

 :-+

A few just need their LCD connections cleaned. A few turned on but have obvious problems. Only 1 was completely DOA. Only 1 had plating on the LCD, but it was the 8062. Regardless if they were fully functional, I am recapping all of them. I am also cleaning the two elastomeric connectors, the carbon one for the LCD, and the silver filled one that connects the SM4 to the MAC. Also cleaning the PCB patterns that contact the elastomerics.

I would be good to know how to clean LCD connections, elastomeric connectors, etc. Those things scare me.

I only ever took one important LCD apart and the rubber was stuck to the glass really hard. I worried about ripping tracks off the LCD's glass or something. Is that possible?

It all worked out in the end and the faded digits came back to life after I put it back together. I had no idea what I was doing at the time though and I always wonder how close I was to destroying the device.

Also: Are zebra connectors completely generic? ie. If a connector is rotten can you simply replace it with another one of the right size or do they have internal tracks with spacings that need to be matched up?

Let's see if I can find anything on LCD repairs while I'm waiting for the meter to arrive...

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on August 10, 2017, 02:28:07 pm
I would be good to know how to clean LCD connections, elastomeric connectors, etc. Those things scare me.

I only ever took one important LCD apart and the rubber was stuck to the glass really hard. I worried about ripping tracks off the LCD's glass or something. Is that possible?

It all worked out in the end and the faded digits came back to life after I put it back together. I had no idea what I was doing at the time though and I always wonder how close I was to destroying the device.

Also: Are zebra connectors completely generic? ie. If a connector is rotten can you simply replace it with another one of the right size or do they have internal tracks with spacings that need to be matched up?

AFAIK the rubber zebra stripes are just 1-1 conducting strips, meaning generic replacements of the same width should do the job. They consist of conductive and non-conductive strips in an alternating arrangement (usually black being the conductive component). I fully remove the zebra stripe and clean its both conductive surfaces with rubbing alcohol as well as the PCB contacts (might need so additional treatment because of corrosion) and the glass contact area of the LCD. Never had a problem with that :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 10, 2017, 06:36:03 pm
I only had peripheral contact with the 8050. It used a discrete analog dual slope converter with a custom controller IC. Getting that circuit working well was a trial for the designer. So the 8050 was still a dumb design, no software, and therefore only slightly related to the 8060. I remember studying its circuitry carefully while designing the 8060. I knew the 8050 input design would never support wideband AC readings, so I pretty much went my own way on the input structure of the 8060.

I was thinking about looking for an 8050A to go with my 8060A. It's a teeny bit more accurate and I assumed they were related. Now I'm not so sure. Maybe I should get another 8060A instead. It's the one true meter.

PS: I didn't know the blue IBM meters were rare collectors items. There was a very nice one on eBay last week that went cheap(ish) but I didn't buy it because I wanted a real Fluke, none of that IBM rubbish.  :-DD

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: tautech on August 10, 2017, 06:55:36 pm
I would be good to know how to clean LCD connections, elastomeric connectors, etc. Those things scare me.
I'm fairly sure you can find all you need here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/vintageclassic-renovation-techniques/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/vintageclassic-renovation-techniques/)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on August 10, 2017, 06:57:49 pm
I would be good to know how to clean LCD connections, elastomeric connectors, etc. Those things scare me.
I'm fairly sure you can find all you need here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/vintageclassic-renovation-techniques/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/vintageclassic-renovation-techniques/)
Modemhead documents it for the Fluke 87.

http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-8x-faded-lcd/ (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-8x-faded-lcd/)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 10, 2017, 08:09:58 pm
Modemhead documents it for the Fluke 87.

Quote
Very slowly and carefully pull the connectors from the glass.  It should help to rock them from side to side to break the seal.  The key is to not tear the connectors, which is another way to ruin your day. The connectors are not glued on

Yeah, that sounds like my previous experience. It felt like they were glued to the glass, that I was about to destroy something important.

Still, the digits on my new 8060A look perfect in the photos so I hope that won't be necessary. Filed for future reference.

(and I'm stocking up on 99% IPA and cotton buds - seems like they belong in the same toolbox as the WD40 and Duct Tape)


Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bd139 on August 10, 2017, 09:10:19 pm
I only had peripheral contact with the 8050. It used a discrete analog dual slope converter with a custom controller IC. Getting that circuit working well was a trial for the designer. So the 8050 was still a dumb design, no software, and therefore only slightly related to the 8060. I remember studying its circuitry carefully while designing the 8060. I knew the 8050 input design would never support wideband AC readings, so I pretty much went my own way on the input structure of the 8060.

I was thinking about looking for an 8050A to go with my 8060A. It's a teeny bit more accurate and I assumed they were related. Now I'm not so sure. Maybe I should get another 8060A instead. It's the one true meter.

They're not at all related. If I had to pick between then I'd pick one of each.

AFAIK there's some software in it. The IC is a Mostek one rather than a Fluke ASIC and it supports similar dB functionality into defined impedances. The only thing it's missing that I don't really like is audible continuity but I've got an 8024 floating around for that.

An 8050A, the 8600A, an 8024B and (I'll get shot on this thread) a Uni-T UT61-E are my daily drivers :)

I've got an 8010A and a 8021A I don't use floating around but the display is on its way out on the 8010A and I don't fancy the heavy lifting replacing it although it appears to be the same part as the 8021's display. Hmm frankenmeter time.

I think I just found I have a Fluke problem
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bitseeker on August 10, 2017, 09:32:01 pm
I think I just found I have a Fluke problem

Nah. GAS works with any brand. ;D
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on August 10, 2017, 10:20:30 pm

AFAIK there's some software in it. The IC is a Mostek one rather than a Fluke ASIC and it supports similar dB functionality into defined impedances. The only thing it's missing that I don't really like is audible continuity but I've got an 8024 floating around for that.

The controller IC in the 8050 is a fully custom IC with A/D state machine control and if I remember correctly, the dB conversion was table driven with segment curve fitting. No software! This same approach was used on the 8920 TRMS Voltmeter, again no software. In the late 70s, high end system DMMs were being made with early uC and uP chips. There was an engineering manager at the time that was fighting against putting that new-fangled Microprocessor stuff into precision instruments. He was demoted in favor of a more forward thinker. The 8060A was notable as the first handheld that had a processor in it. It came out about a year after the 8050. I sat right next to the 8050 design team, but again, I had nothing to do with the 8050 design. I was finishing up my modest contribution to the 8920-8921 right before starting work on the 8060.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bd139 on August 10, 2017, 10:30:59 pm
Ugh that's horrible if it's state machine driven. I bet that was a ball ache getting that debugged.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: lowimpedance on August 10, 2017, 11:52:48 pm
In a side note, one of my 8060s is really a prototype unit. It has a ceramic MAC chip, the RMS converter in a socket, and it has several kludges. The constant current output uses a LM334 and a couple of bodged resistors. There's also a couple of jumpers. This very likely is the oldest 8060 around as it is clear I was still fooling with it.
Would be a nice addition to the thread to see some pictures of the proto. unit insides  :) , (as time permits of course).
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 11, 2017, 03:56:12 pm
My 8060A arrived today!

It seems to work perfectly, it's all in spec as far as my humble volts/ohms/amps references can tell (I'm going to need better references now >:D )

I took it apart to find a date code, etc. I got PCB revision J, date on main chip is week 30, 1989.

As far as I can tell the capacitors aren't Nichicon and look suitably numerous and fiddly to replace. :(  I'm going to leave that job for now.

The self tappers holding the case together were very stiff. Getting the case back together firmly was impossible, the screws were so stiff it felt like I was going to break something. I put a tiny amount of olive oil on the screws and they went in like a dream. Hint: Here in Spain we use olive oil for everything, put some in your toolbox.  ;)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on August 11, 2017, 04:06:41 pm
I took it apart to find a date code, etc. I got PCB revision J, date on main chip is week 30, 1989.

As far as I can tell the capacitors aren't Nichicon and look suitably numerous and very fiddly to replace.  :(  I'm going to leave that job for now.

Hi Fungus, Sounds like you got a good one. Rev J was done after I left Fluke. Really makes me want to see the Rev History. As I mentioned earlier, I have mostly PCB Rev H and PCA Rev H. Rev J would be one revision newer as Fluke and most companies skip "I" due to possibility of confusion with "1". If you don't replace the Caps, you could be in for trouble later. I'd use a magnifier and look carefully around the bottoms of all the Alum Caps for any signs of electrolyte leakage (but it may be there anyway and you won't see it). Your caps are >20 years old. But if it works...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: kalel on August 11, 2017, 04:17:39 pm
Being a newbie to electronics (have not had a chance to own or repair many old things), I wonder if you changed all of the capacitors on a device that has many, and went with high quality branded replacements, would it be costly comparing to the device itself?

Then, probably some things like potentiometers cost even more if you go for high quality.

Of course, for professional restorations or service repair this is different, as they either want the thing in perfect condition for a collection or charge for their work and parts.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 11, 2017, 04:25:09 pm
I took it apart to find a date code, etc. I got PCB revision J, date on main chip is week 30, 1989.

As far as I can tell the capacitors aren't Nichicon and look suitably numerous and very fiddly to replace.  :(  I'm going to leave that job for now.
Hi Fungus, Sounds like you got a good one.

:-)

Rev J was done after I left Fluke. Really makes me want to see the Rev History. As I mentioned earlier, I have mostly PCB Rev H and PCA Rev H. Rev J would be one revision newer as Fluke and most companies skip "I" due to possibility of confusion with "1".

I could take some pics of the PCB, etc., if you think that would help. I imagine most changes would be to reduce costs though, not to change functionality.

If you don't replace the Caps, you could be in for trouble later. I'd use a magnifier and look carefully around the bottoms of all the Alum Caps for any signs of electrolyte leakage (but it may be there anyway and you won't see it). Your caps are >20 years old. But if it works...

Coming up to 30 years old...

I'll inspect them and look into replacing them when I get the chance. I want to put it through its paces first.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: helius on August 11, 2017, 05:33:51 pm
Being a newbie to electronics (have not had a chance to own or repair many old things), I wonder if you changed all of the capacitors on a device that has many, and went with high quality branded replacements, would it be costly comparing to the device itself?
It depends on what types of capacitors were specified. Radial aluminum electrolytics of high quality are not expensive. From 20 cents for 10 uF to a couple dollars for 1000 uF in small quantities. The axial and screw-mount types are more expensive, and locating extra low leakage parts can be a challenge. Wet tantalum capacitors are outrageously expensive (found in Tektronix gear, not only military equipment).

Quote
Then, probably some things like potentiometers cost even more if you go for high quality.
Again, it depends on the type. Cermet trimmers (for calibration, unaccessible with the case closed) of high quality are less than a dollar each for most ranges. On the other hand, 10-turn geared potentiometers are fairly expensive.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 11, 2017, 06:43:10 pm
I like all the 8060A power-on self tests for the switches and buttons, etc.   :)

8V output in diode test mode.  :)

It's smaller than I expected.  :) :)

One of the little black rubber feet underneath is turning to goo and came off (stuck to the table).   >:(
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on August 11, 2017, 11:24:22 pm
I like all the 8060A power-on self tests for the switches and buttons, etc.   :)

If it 'ever' fails on the power up due to a measuring mishap/blunder, try restarting,
or if no go pull the battery, work all the switches and power switch, refit battery and try again.
This has happened to me twice, and it wasn't the meter's fault.. I had the wrong setting/overconfidentnewbsyndrome   |O


8V output in diode test mode.  :)

With the right LED stuck to the side of the meter, probe up a handy torch light when the zombies cut the lab power   ;D


One of the little black rubber feet underneath is turning to goo and came off (stuck to the table).   >:(

Love at first sight   :-*  the meter wants to stay   :clap:


It's smaller than I expected.  :) :)

Pimp it up !    8)       see my DIY below  :-DMM 



Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: WastelandTek on August 11, 2017, 11:38:30 pm


Pimp it up !

bad

ass
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: switcher on August 13, 2017, 09:20:49 pm
My lab is all set up for a production line operation for 15 8060s and one 8062.

Would love to see some pics of your production line, Mr. T.

Please  :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on August 14, 2017, 01:21:47 am
Picture of prototype 8060A from my collection. You can see the MAC chip in a ceramic DIP with a glued on top, dated Jan 6 1983. The TRMS chip is in a socket. If I remember properly, I used this 8060A to test the TRMS chips for performance and consistency with the selected components.

Just to the left of the MAC chip, you can see a blue ceramic cap that is kludged with a long lead wire. In the lower left hand side you can see an LM334 and two kludged in resistors in place of the constant current diode that was and is the final design. I think I was experimenting with using more current than the FET based CC diode.

Also notable is one more Tantalum Caps than in the final design. You can see it just above the pot next to the TRMS chip. This is now a 100uF/6.3V Alum.  The tantalum cap next to the Piezo is a larger size than the final design.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: WastelandTek on August 14, 2017, 01:41:02 am
Just speaking for myself, though I suspect I might find some agreement here, I think the design envelope is open again.  Should you see fit to make any...improvements...well, it IS your design.

No bean counters here!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: lowimpedance on August 14, 2017, 03:20:35 am
Thanks for the pic. ,  the big question is ....... Are there any bodge wires on the bottom side ?.  :D

Just speaking for myself, though I suspect I might find some agreement here, I think the design envelope is open again.  Should you see fit to make any...improvements...well, it IS your design.

No bean counters here!
lol....

Although owners may also state that it has already reached perfection  :).

Just for the record I don't own one ........yet ............. ,  but seeing the shiny one of fungus's ......hmm  nice.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on August 14, 2017, 06:48:41 am
8V output in diode test mode.  :)
The diode test range uses a constant current diode (JFET based) to generate 1mA output. It has a 1V to 2V drop. It's connected directly to the battery plus which is why you are seeing 8V open circuit. It will not stay at 8V when loaded. The compliance voltage will also drop as the battery depletes. The diode test is limited to 2Vfs. Even though the 8060 will light most LEDs, if the LED has a Vf of >=2V at 1mA, the 8060 will indicate OL. Most of the older chemistry LEDs are close to 2V at only 1mA. But it will light even a blue/white LED, it just won't show the Vf. It might be an interesting modification to force the 8060 into the 20V range. Then you could do some matching. But I'd also want to provide 10~20mA which is appropriate for all small LEDs.
 
Thanks for the pic. ,  the big question is ....... Are there any bodge wires on the bottom side ?.  :D
Surprisingly no!

My lab is all set up for a production line operation for 15 8060s and one 8062.

Would love to see some pics of your production line, Mr. T.


Well, I shouldn't have called it a production line, but the attached picture shows a portion of my workbench where I am reworking the 8060s. Each unit has a dedicated box so I wouldn't mix them up (you can see more boxes stacked on some of my instruments). My Pace MBT100 does the hard work. My glass soaking tray on the right holds 3 8060s at a time. Bottles of pure IPA are seen to the right of the covered tray.

I use one of my functional 8060s seen on the left for continuity testing (the 8060A has one of the the fastest stretched continuity functions) to make sure that any found corrosion has not eaten a trace. I also use the 200nS range to track down leakage.

A pile of pulled caps is sitting there (yeah, I'm messy) but I was thinking about checking to see how the caps would read for value and leakage current and other cap parameters just to educate myself on what exactly a 35 year old cap does. The ones that were definitely leaking electrolyte...I know what they'll measure. I'm more interested in what caps with 35 year old electrolyte measure from a unit that was still functional. The new caps are in the Mouser bags.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: lowimpedance on August 14, 2017, 07:03:25 am
Messy !?! are you sure, that bench looks almost surgical. Nice setup BTW.  :-+.
Maybe some more pics over in the 'Show us your workbench' thread of the rest of bench, (if you want to of course).
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 14, 2017, 01:38:48 pm
I've just been looking at the test points on my meter and it's all weird. I'm sure there's some mistakes in the manual.

Here's what I got (my readings in orange):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=341619;image)

First of all, there's no TP1 in the diagram, and two TP8s.

On one of the TP8s I get 2.05V, which doesn't correspond to anything in the list and is a long way from the 3.15V mentioned.

On the other TP8 there's a square wave which switches between 2 and a bit volts (same voltage as the TP8 above?) and 5.3V  at 2.43 Hz (see screenshot).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=341615;image)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on August 14, 2017, 02:51:13 pm
I've just been looking at the test points on my meter and it's all weird. I'm sure there's some mistakes in the manual.
The downloadable manual is for the most recent models manufactured, with the RMS converter daughter board.  It seems to be a mix of old and new content.  Attached is a scan of an older hardcopy manual (Rev 3 1/88).  It may clear up some things.

Vdg (TP8) is -3.15V when measured with respect to Vdd (TP1 or TP7).

The slow square on TP6 is a convenient scope trigger for observing the integration/de-integration cycle at U3p17.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: helius on August 14, 2017, 03:15:34 pm
First of all, there's no TP1 in the diagram, and two TP8s.
The one to the right should read TP6 (notice the ordering, left to right: 9, 8, 7, 6)

Quote
On one of the TP8s I get 2.05V, which doesn't correspond to anything in the list and is a long way from the 3.15V mentioned.
It says "3.15V ref to VDD". 3.15+2.05=5.20

Quote
On the other TP8 there's a square wave which switches between 2 and a bit volts (same voltage as the TP8 above?) and 5.3V  at 2.43 Hz (see screenshot).
That is the TP6 ADC trigger, a square wave as indicated
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: switcher on August 14, 2017, 05:17:19 pm
The coolest post on the forum, thankyou for sharing, Mr. T.  :-+


My lab is all set up for a production line operation for 15 8060s and one 8062.

Would love to see some pics of your production line, Mr. T.


Well, I shouldn't have called it a production line, but the attached picture shows a portion of my workbench where I am reworking the 8060s. Each unit has a dedicated box so I wouldn't mix them up (you can see more boxes stacked on some of my instruments). My Pace MBT100 does the hard work. My glass soaking tray on the right holds 3 8060s at a time. Bottles of pure IPA are seen to the right of the covered tray.

I use one of my functional 8060s seen on the left for continuity testing (the 8060A has one of the the fastest stretched continuity functions) to make sure that any found corrosion has not eaten a trace. I also use the 200nS range to track down leakage.

A pile of pulled caps is sitting there (yeah, I'm messy) but I was thinking about checking to see how the caps would read for value and leakage current and other cap parameters just to educate myself on what exactly a 35 year old cap does. The ones that were definitely leaking electrolyte...I know what they'll measure. I'm more interested in what caps with 35 year old electrolyte measure from a unit that was still functional. The new caps are in the Mouser bags.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: switcher on August 14, 2017, 05:18:31 pm
The second coolest post on the forum, thankyou again, Mr. T.  :-+

Picture of prototype 8060A from my collection. You can see the MAC chip in a ceramic DIP with a glued on top, dated Jan 6 1983. The TRMS chip is in a socket. If I remember properly, I used this 8060A to test the TRMS chips for performance and consistency with the selected components.

Just to the left of the MAC chip, you can see a blue ceramic cap that is kludged with a long lead wire. In the lower left hand side you can see an LM334 and two kludged in resistors in place of the constant current diode that was and is the final design. I think I was experimenting with using more current than the FET based CC diode.

Also notable is one more Tantalum Caps than in the final design. You can see it just above the pot next to the TRMS chip. This is now a 100uF/6.3V Alum.  The tantalum cap next to the Piezo is a larger size than the final design.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 14, 2017, 05:44:29 pm
I've just been looking at the test points on my meter and it's all weird. I'm sure there's some mistakes in the manual.
The downloadable manual is for the most recent models manufactured, with the RMS converter daughter board.  It seems to be a mix of old and new content.  Attached is a scan of an older hardcopy manual (Rev 3 1/88).  It may clear up some things.

I was wondering about that "daughter board" (which I don't have). Thanks for clearing it up.

Vdg (TP8) is -3.15V when measured with respect to Vdd (TP1 or TP7).

The slow square on TP6 is a convenient scope trigger for observing the integration/de-integration cycle at U3p17.

OK, it's all more or less correct then. Meter seems to work perfectly.

I can't see any obvious capacitor spew yet but I should probably pluck up courage to have a go at them. I'll wait and see what DrT's final recommendations for types/values are.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on August 14, 2017, 06:45:22 pm
I was wondering about that "daughter board" (which I don't have). Thanks for clearing it up.
I only have one unit with the daughter board, pictured here.  The device in the can is an AD636KH.

I can't see any obvious capacitor spew yet but I should probably pluck up courage to have a go at them. I'll wait and see what DrT's final recommendations for types/values are.
I've collected six of these and the serial number of all the ones I've seen capacitor damage on started with a "3".   "4" and up has been okay so far.  Not to say they won't spew their guts tomorrow though...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 14, 2017, 06:52:10 pm
I've collected six of these and the serial number of all the ones I've seen capacitor damage on started with a "3".   "4" and up has been okay so far.

Mine is 492xxx that's nearly a 5!

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 14, 2017, 07:46:58 pm
I was wondering about that "daughter board" (which I don't have). Thanks for clearing it up.
I only have one unit with the daughter board, pictured here.  The device in the can is an AD636KH.

Out of interest: Could you tell us the serial number/date/revision of that one?

(for the archives :) )
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on August 14, 2017, 08:52:57 pm
Out of interest: Could you tell us the serial number/date/revision of that one?
Well, I'm not 100% sure about the serial number...  It does not have the number etched into the plastic like others.  There is however a cal sticker from the previous owner that says S/N: 7613xxxx, which I guess is the Fluke S/N.

The board is 8060A-3001 REV N.  There is also a handwritten "100" under the MAC.  Curiously, the PC artwork still includes the footprint of the old RMS converter components.  The daughter board is just staked in with 0.025" posts.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on August 14, 2017, 11:52:53 pm
I've collected six of these and the serial number of all the ones I've seen capacitor damage on started with a "3".   "4" and up has been okay so far.

Mine is 492xxx that's nearly a 5!

I wouldn't hit the casino tables with that hope, especially if the caps are some generic brand from way back   

Even if they haven't leaked, or have and been cleaned up, they may be dry by now or just over it and exhibit suspect MFs

I wonder if these meters can survive an in circuit ESR test at 100khz or perhaps lower, without crashing anything on board ?   :-//






Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: yo0 on August 16, 2017, 03:43:03 am
i have two near mint 8060a, one made in USA serial 595xxxx and one made in Mexico with serial 970xxxx, none have leaked caps, the USA one has no mark soft green caps and Mexico one has black nippon-chemicon, none have daughter board.

best regards.

Pio
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on August 16, 2017, 03:39:25 pm
one made in Mexico with serial 974xxxx,
Hmm, I discoverd that some Fluke 70s were made in China as per

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/i-thought-all-fluke-70-series-were-made-in-usa/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/i-thought-all-fluke-70-series-were-made-in-usa/)

but this is the first time I heard Fluke made in Mexico.

Can you post of picture of the back please?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: yo0 on August 17, 2017, 12:29:53 am
one made in Mexico with serial 974xxxx,
Hmm, I discoverd that some Fluke 70s were made in China as per

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/i-thought-all-fluke-70-series-were-made-in-usa/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/i-thought-all-fluke-70-series-were-made-in-usa/)

but this is the first time I heard Fluke made in Mexico.

Can you post of picture of the back please?

ok!  :)

best regards

Pio


Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 17, 2017, 01:23:45 pm
Disaster!

I was putting the lid back on the meter and one of the screw posts broke off. I was being as gentle as I could, etc., but I guess the plastic is getting old and I don't know what previous owner-gorillas have done to it in the past.

On careful inspection I also noticed a crack in the other screw post down near the bottom.

I don't think the one near the bottom is going anywhere because it's pressed between the input jacks. The one at the top, though? It's gone.

I has a sad.  :(

What now? Epoxy?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=342456;image)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bd139 on August 17, 2017, 01:44:47 pm
That's a bummer. My 8021 did that.

Epoxy worked for me.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on August 17, 2017, 04:02:34 pm
Speaking of 8060s and other Fluke DMMs made places other than Everett Washington...I recall that Fluke received State Department permission to set up an 8060 production line in Red China (that's what everyone called it then). Has anyone ever found an 8060 built in China? We know about meters made in Tilburg Netherlands for the European Market, the Mexican ones were a surprise to me, but what happened to the Chinese ones?

BTW, just to put it to rest again - There is absolutely no difference between the IBM 8060s and the standard 8060 except for the case color, the front label, and the User Guide color. I have a copy of the order from IBM for 10000 units of the IBM 8060. I don't think they ever bought more after that original order, but I suppose it's possible. The delivery was scheduled over some time period, so they didn't get them all at once. Fluke couldn't have produced them that fast.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: WastelandTek on August 17, 2017, 04:24:55 pm
Disaster!

I was putting the lid back on the meter and one of the screw posts broke off. I was being as gentle as I could, etc., but I guess the plastic is getting old and I don't know what previous owner-gorillas have done to it in the past.

On careful inspection I also noticed a crack in the other screw post down near the bottom.

I don't think the one near the bottom is going anywhere because it's pressed between the input jacks. The one at the top, though? It's gone.

I has a sad.  :(

What now? Epoxy?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=342456;image)



What I would do in this situation is get the Dremel out with a tiny round die grinder tip and rough up the surface around the break, being careful not to mar the actual broken surface.  I would use cyanoacrilate to stick the part back on, then bury the whole roughed up area with JB-weld
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on August 17, 2017, 05:40:44 pm
Epoxy worked for me.
Modemhead has  a few documented cases at

http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/beckman-industrial-hd140-multimeter/ (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/beckman-industrial-hd140-multimeter/)

http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/beckman-industrial-hd110-multimeter/ (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/beckman-industrial-hd110-multimeter/)

He does similar fixes for the Fluke 70 series I and II, but they are not publicly documented.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: yo0 on August 17, 2017, 06:20:18 pm
Disaster!

I was putting the lid back on the meter and one of the screw posts broke off. I was being as gentle as I could, etc., but I guess the plastic is getting old and I don't know what previous owner-gorillas have done to it in the past.

On careful inspection I also noticed a crack in the other screw post down near the bottom.

I don't think the one near the bottom is going anywhere because it's pressed between the input jacks. The one at the top, though? It's gone.

I has a sad.  :(

What now? Epoxy?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=342456;image)



What I would do in this situation is get the Dremel out with a tiny round die grinder tip and rough up the surface around the break, being careful not to mar the actual broken surface.  I would use cyanoacrilate to stick the part back on, then bury the whole roughed up area with JB-weld

another option is cyanoacrilate and baking soda, really strong reinforcement. always works for me. you can reconstruct pieces with missing parts even, a bit of labor cause yo need apply both ingredients in alternate way (layers), i put a good drop of cyanoacrilate in a piece of glass, and grab a tiny amount with a jewerly flat screewdriver then baking soda till you obtain the needed volume and form,  you can sand, drill the resultant rock.

best regards

Pio
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: WastelandTek on August 17, 2017, 06:56:25 pm

another option is cyanoacrilate and baking soda, really strong reinforcement. always works for me. you can reconstruct pieces with missing parts even, a bit of labor cause yo need apply both ingredients in alternate way (layers), i put a good drop of cyanoacrilate in a piece of glass, and grab a tiny amount with a jewerly flat screewdriver then baking soda till you obtain the needed volume and form,  you can sand, drill the resultant rock.

best regards

Pio

yeah, I have used the cyanoacrilate/baking soda trick too, the resultant matter is hard indeed, good call
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on August 17, 2017, 10:38:03 pm
Identical cracks on mine too, some pics to help with the group pain therapy    :'(  :'(  :'(

As pictured I have secured the bits with electrical tape as a quick n dirty temp measure to not lose the bits
and will do the Super Glue/epoxy/magic spell thing (or better recommended alternative) when I get some free  -fiddly job-  brain space time 

Hey guys, it's not a deal breaker, 8060A wasn't built to be like a Fluke 28-11 ordeal meter.   >:D
In a pinch put some duck/duct tap around the edges and wack it in a rubber holster (preferably YELLOW)  if you want to upgrade it's field durability (and Flukey pro meter vibe)  :-DMM

87 mk1  and others have the same cracks too, and certainly can't be related to how many times you unscrew the item or whatever, 

I've done about 6 battery changes on both meters over the years, taking care putting the screws back as they were originally orientated
and to not stuff up the internal thread cut into the silly plastic joke posts.


The 289 has the same plastic post BS, the small black battery section retaining screw has already turned into an asteroid field    >:(


It must be a Fluke plastics thing, because the same vintage Taiwan made meters by competitor brands have not cracked (yet)    :phew:

Continuing to use sharp metal self tapping screws into flimsy thin plastic posts from the 1980s till recently, on EXPENSIVE professional and industrial Cat rated meters,
severely compromising their containment strength in an unfortunate  -meter blowout-  scenario, as shown in the scare tactic 'marketing' videos   :scared:     is  D U H City...    :palm: :palm:

and worthy of a few consecutive  -Dumbass Design Awards-   :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 18, 2017, 08:20:04 am
After I stick the post back (method undecided until I experiment) I'm thinking about binding the two posts at the top to the side of the case with epoxy for future support.

I'm guessing DrT didn't design the case.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on August 18, 2017, 08:47:14 am
Don't get too creative on any renovation work before confirming the case will still close, it's a tight ship in there

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 18, 2017, 09:37:52 am
Don't get too creative on any renovation work before confirming the case will still close, it's a tight ship in there

Yeah, yeah. I'm checking that carefully. The ones at the top have quite a lot of free space towards the side of the case. On the opposite side I need to stay below the level of the button holder and avoid the corner of the screen. There's a lot of reinforcement to be had though.

The screw post at the bottom has almost no space at all around it. I might rough it up a bit and put a thin layer of epoxy to fill/reinforce the crack.

The silver linings are that thanks to the missing post I can rough up the side of the case really well to take the glue and those little plastic rings around the top of the posts will make sure it all aligns correctly while the glue sets.


Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on August 18, 2017, 09:59:09 am
If you really want to toughen it up, do not only use 2-comp epoxy, but also some glass fiber. That way you do not really need a lot of epoxy (thus no problems regarding space in the housing) and it will be much tougher than a big blob of epoxy.
You should get small pieces of glass fiber cloth or ribbon in the hardware store / hobby store.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 18, 2017, 11:42:19 am

another option is cyanoacrilate and baking soda, really strong reinforcement. always works for me. you can reconstruct pieces with missing parts even, a bit of labor cause yo need apply both ingredients in alternate way (layers), i put a good drop of cyanoacrilate in a piece of glass, and grab a tiny amount with a jewerly flat screewdriver then baking soda till you obtain the needed volume and form,  you can sand, drill the resultant rock.
yeah, I have used the cyanoacrilate/baking soda trick too, the resultant matter is hard indeed, good call

I'm just researching this. It's one of Adam Savage's recommended tricks (http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/tips/a584/2569841/).

I just did an experiment with a tube of glue and a pile of baking soda on some paper and I like the result. I want to play with glue/soda ratios, find some similar plastics and see how well it sticks, etc. I'm going to need some more glue...

I'll also do some experiments with different epoxys before I decide. Epoxy + fiberglass might be best. It mostly depends on what sticks best to the plastic.

Lots of things to consider/experiment with. No hurry though, I don't mind leaving the screws out for a while.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on August 18, 2017, 11:11:54 pm
Some doubled up good quality electrical or duct tape along the sides will keep it together in the meantime and do a better job than the flimsy cracked posts

A pair of thick re-usable cable ties works too in a pinch, if you don't care about looks     ::)    the meter will still rock   :-+

Excluding the Fluke 8060A because it's a way back model, it's preposterous Fluke still flog their Cat safety BS on many of their cracked screw post meters in later 'modern' meters
which are no longer secured together to contain the  -BLASTS-  they boast about 

much less survive a good drop which would split the meter in two..make that three or more counting the flying circuit board and fuses     :palm:

I use and endorse some of their gear, but this is one big fluke up they need to address asap

I've been taping up the sides of my Flukes for years to reinforce the cracked post BS, a necessary 'safety upgrade' hard to spot once the yellow holster is on,

I don't know what the long term gripping strength of any glues vs Fluke plastics is going to be,

nor do I want to mess with the meter structural insides, which gives Fluke a back door to get out of their responsibility in case the meter fails,

i.e. your Defense can tell the Judge and Jury in court, that electrical tape on a flimsy manufactured hyped Safety rated meter is not a 'modification' 
nor a practice specifically recommended against by the meter manufacturer in the user manual, packaging, advertising, or otherwise   

whilst you discretely display The Finger to the Prosecution vipers     >:D



Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bd139 on August 19, 2017, 10:38:50 am
Great tip with the bicarb and cyanoacrylate. I tried it with loctite gel and it actually comes out pretty amazing. I was partially expecting it to catch fire (try pouring it on cotton wool) but nope, nice fast setting filler!  :-+

Just as a note there are two subtle differences between bicarb and baking powder. The latter has something in it that smells funky. I avoided using that!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: martinr33 on August 20, 2017, 05:11:06 am
For a thermoplastic (which the Fluke cases likely are) you should use a plastic welding adhesive. This stuff is super thin, and crawls into the gap between the parts. It fuses the pieces back together, and is very strong. The bond is better than epoxy. Hard to get because of the chemicals, but take a look at this:

https://eugenetoyandhobby.com/shop/stuff-liquid-plastic-welder-micro-mark-84113/?gclid=CjwKCAjww9_MBRAWEiwAlaMJZrK8vJzslcoB6mx1iejZzsUDGF7rxTPqElnGxT62777UFlchYkBlHhoC8-QQAvD_BwE
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on August 20, 2017, 12:13:19 pm
Does anyone know exactly what type / blend of plastic is used for the 8060 / 8020 / ... cases? ABS sounds plausible, but there are no markings (at least in the units I had on my bench) and it can well be a lot of different plastics.
ABS can be weld-bonded with dichloromethane or MEK. Structural stabilization with epoxy and some glass fiber would still be my recommendation after fixing the pieces in place.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 20, 2017, 06:29:09 pm
Just as a note there are two subtle differences between bicarb and baking powder.

They're completely different things.

The choice of glue seems important. Loctite professional is the way to go according to several web sites.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on August 20, 2017, 09:40:09 pm
I prefer to let Fluke bean counters get experimental glue combos all over their manicured dishpan hands   >:(

and perform plastics 'research' for their current and next gen meters.

..and in the meantime send all us Fluke fanboy/user/customers  (and possible future customers)   replacement chassis with threaded metal inserts

for our recent model -Cat Crippled- meters


Some of us customers have real work to get on with... using Fluke brand meters that get a FREE advertising plug for the company every time the yellow holsters get drawn from the service kit   :-DMM   :-DMM :-DMM

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 21, 2017, 01:23:54 pm
...
As far as the replacement caps, I've decided to use Polymer Aluminums. These have the advantage of lower ESR and higher ripple current (not really necessary for the 8060), but best of all, due to the organic polymer, they will not spew electrolyte. These 8060s should last for another 30 years. I only had one value I could not fit physically in the position. So I went with the Nichicon UTT for the 22uF/16V part. All the rest are Nichicon RS, RNS or RNU types.

All these parts are in stock at Mouser.

Do you have a handy list of the part numbers, please?

(edited)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: switcher on August 22, 2017, 08:42:29 pm
'Do you have a handy list of the part numbers please' is considered more courteous.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: kalel on August 22, 2017, 08:46:36 pm
Just as a note there are two subtle differences between bicarb and baking powder.

They're completely different things.

The choice of glue seems important. Loctite professional is the way to go according to several web sites.

I tried bicarb with the cheapest available liquid super glue for experiment (not on any actual plastic). It does become very solid. I can't say how it compares to other glue, though.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Neomys Sapiens on August 25, 2017, 06:48:12 pm

Continuing to use sharp metal self tapping screws into flimsy thin plastic posts from the 1980s till recently, on EXPENSIVE professional and industrial Cat rated meters,
severely compromising their containment strength in an unfortunate  -meter blowout-  scenario, as shown in the scare tactic 'marketing' videos   :scared:     is  D U H City...    :palm: :palm:


I have encountered those problem occasionally, but never on a meter that was owned by me from first hand. Why? My screw-in procedure starts with a little search rotation to the left, then you feel the start of the pseodothread cut by the screw before.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 25, 2017, 07:13:09 pm
I have encountered those problem occasionally, but never on a meter that was owned by me from first hand. Why? My screw-in procedure starts with a little search rotation to the left, then you feel the start of the pseodothread cut by the screw before.

Anybody with more then two brain cells does that.

The problem is the sheer amount of torque needed when you're near the end of travel. Thread or no thread.

(also the torque of the first insertion. The posts in these meters aren't huge)

I wonder if Dr.T has any insight on this design decision...

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on August 25, 2017, 07:13:26 pm
I have encountered those problem occasionally, but never on a meter that was owned by me from first hand.

Being careful is always a considerable option. On the other hand I can not deny that self-tapping screws are usually a sign for cheaply made products. Even the Voltcraft 6010  (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/voltcraft-6010-(nos-from-1984)-unboxing-and-teardown-(picture-heavy)/msg1179444/#msg1179444)made in Korea by Hung Chang (rebranded HC601) has brass inserts.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on August 25, 2017, 10:26:52 pm
I have 4 restored 8060s functional. I have not been able to calibrate the AC ranges yet. But DCV, mA, and ohms ranges have been tested functional. I have attached a list of the Caps I used. The prices will vary based on how many parts you buy. I was buying for 15 units, with a few spares. All these caps are Alum Polymer types except C36. All are 105deg 5000 hour rated, and should give you many more years of 8060 functionality. The list that Mr. Modemhead published would be fine as well.

I wonder if Dr.T has any insight on this design decision...

I did not have a lot of influence on how the basic case was designed. I had the enclosure designers increase the size of the LCD window and add the four holes for the Elastomeric switch. But the actual design was performed by a mechanical engineer. The SM4 board bracket arrangement was all new for the 8060. Fluke had never hooked circuitry up with elastomerics before. The board to board elastomeric is silver filled which has much lower resistance than the type of elastomerics used for LCDs. The other main change that I influenced was the rigid AC shield. The wrap around shield of the 8020 did not work worth beans for frequency above 1kHz. I also had the bright idea to put the cal procedure on the new rigid top shield and expose a few test points. The first units still had repeatability problems in the AC until we added that little v-shaped bracket on the back of the top shield to hold the main input divider vertical and rigid. Also the bottom stick-on shield was improved for AC performance and we added the screw with the spring to connect the top and bottom shields. It was plenty effective at 100kHz.

Remember that Fluke pioneered the handheld LCD DMM with the release of the 8020. The 8060s case was derived from that and the means of screwing the halves together was developed for the 8020 and its derivatives. This type of plastic does get more brittle over time, but for the most part, the self-tapping (designed for plastic) screw sheathes have held up fine. Brass inserts are no panacea as I have seen them pulled out or actually break the plastic they are swedged into. I never over tighten the mounting screws and never use an electric screwdriver to put them in. BTW, I would not lube the screws, just be careful.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on August 25, 2017, 11:13:47 pm
Recapping an 8060A:

You will remove and replace 10 Caps: C1, C23, C24, C32, and C33 (100uF). C12, C21, and C28 (10uF). C36 (22uF). C19 (47uF). Suitable replacement parts were specified in post #423.

Most importantly - Clean, clean, and clean again. Do not leave flux residue. If you do not blot or blow off the IPA to actually remove the flux residue, then you are potentially making a leakage path elsewhere. (I sure miss the spray freon tanks...boy those made a clean board. I probably damaged my liver holding boards with no protection gear). I know many will think I go overboard on the cleaning, but if you want your 8060 to function in high humidity without going wonky, you will clean buddy, and you will be thorough! A lesson learned from countless hours hovering beside a humidity chamber.

On a side note, one advantage the 4 layer board gave to the 8060 that older models didn't have, is that I buried as many high impedance traces as I could in the inner layers. But they still have to come out somewhere. A practice learned at Fluke that I still follow with all my designs.

Here is the recapping process that I use. By no means the only way to do this. 

(I apologize for the long length of this post and perhaps too much detail here. But not everyone doing this has your years of experience. Use good ESD practices.)

1- Once the case is open, remove the shield (don't lose the spring). Remove the LCD/SM4 assembly. Although not strictly necessary, I also remove the switch end caps, the green power switch slider, and the fuses.

2- Remove all the old capacitors. There are a total of 10 to replace. Try to not damage the pads. I always add a drop of rosin flux before attempting to remove the part. I used a Pace rework station, but the usual combo of a good solder station, solder sucker and solder wick braid will work fine too. I'm a firm believer in using a fairly large tip on the iron for desoldering. With some stubborn corroded pads, I had to use several techniques including adding new solder. You can usually tell if the cap spewed because those are the ones that are difficult to remove due to pad corrosion.

3- Using a sawed off acid brush, scrub the top and bottom of the pads with IPA (99%). Where electrolyte has spilled, the pads will be off-color and potentially heavily corroded. It is important to clean off all the electrolyte thoroughly. If the pad is heavily corroded, you might have to jumper the connection. If it appears the electrolyte has gone under other components, you might have to remove them too.

4- I use a glass cooking pan with a lid. I place the 8060 in the pan and pour IPA (not directly on the 8060) until it just covers the top of the PCA. Do not use so much that it gets into the gang switch.

5- Soak in the IPA for 30 minutes.

6- Remove the board and blow dry it with an air gun at low heat. (Clean compressed air is how I'd do it I had a compressor). At all times, hold the PCB by the edges. Avoid fingerprints!

7- Install the new caps using fine rosin flux solder (I used 27mil diameter). The standard for polarity with Electrolytics is that the long lead (before you trim it off) is positive. Most (but not all) caps have the negative lead identified with a color band. This is the case with the parts in the attached list.

8- Use a sawed off acid brush dipped in clean IPA to remove all flux residue. Use a lint free swab or q-tip to soak up the IPA before it dries. Clean each cap's pads individually so that the IPA does not dry up before you wipe it dry. Again, this is to help remove the IPA diluted flux.

9- After all your new caps are in and clean, place the PCB in the glass pan, and, using new, clean IPA, fill up the pan to just cover the top of the PCB. Leave for 30 minutes.

10- Remove the PCB and use a clean Acid brush to clean every surface you can reach (not just the new cap areas). Re-wet the board in the pan, and then blow it dry.

11- Now the wait... do not apply power until the whole assembly has had at least a few hours to dry. Use this time to disassemble the LCD and clean all the surfaces and elastomerics with a wooden Q-Tip dipped in IPA. Be gentle with the elastomerics, be vigorous with the PCB surfaces. Use lint free wipes to remove any residue while the IPA is still wet. You can also clean the LCD, Lens, and Polarizer with IPA. This should fix any ghosting or non-functional segments. Be careful not to get fingerprints on anything.

12- Reassemble the SM4/LCD assembly, screw it into the board, and now cross your fingers. Apply power and hope you got all of that nasty corrosion out. I suggest trying the ratio test first (Hold down the continuity key while turning on the unit. Hold until just 8s are showing, then release). If the ratio test is 9992 to 10008, your A/D is probably functioning properly. The other test I recommend is a turnover test. This will reveal leakage. Use any stable voltage source and see if the 8060 reads the same regardless of polarity. e.g. Put in around +1.9V with the meter in the 2V range. Note the reading to the lsd. Turn the leads around, and see if the negative reading is the same. Turn over error of 1 digit or less indicates a healthy A/D and input components. Try it again in the 200mV range with ~190mV. If this all looks hunky-dory, turn on the 200nS range. It should immediately go to 0.00. If it takes a while to get there, that's an indication of board or component leakage (or you didn't let the board dry long enough).

Since this post is getting quite lengthy, I'll save troubleshooting tips for a future post if enough people need help. The 8060 User guide has lots of info on testing.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on August 26, 2017, 04:14:11 am
Many thanks to Mr. Taylor for the generous postings here   :clap: :clap:

Everyone here realises the plastic post screw casing fiasco isn't on him,

nor is it an exclusive Fluke thing, despite it still going on!    :palm:

Here's one of my Fluke 87Vs that I opened recently for the first time to give it a check and borrow it's fuse to test another meter   

As I unscrewed I felt/heard a crack type sound, and assumed it was the self tapping screw binding on the post.  :-//

Upon close inspection...well, a picture is like a thousand words 


i.e. the sucker was spot welded to the post, so of course any normal force to unscrew it, cracked the post!

I'm past ranting about this stuff, the manufacturers charging big dollars and boasting CAT Rated explosive containment that isn't better than many $6.99 One Hung TuLo meters,

need to get their act into gear ASAP.


Perhaps this issue needs a separate post elsewhere, to keep things here more On Topic   :)



Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: jh15 on August 26, 2017, 04:48:20 am
I just lost half hour composing here because when I posted, warning came up that someone was posting at same time. Went to check, then lost my whole post.

Anyway need to hit sack.



I need a quickie answer.

Got 8060a meter today 3500000ish serial.
Ratio check ok, fuse check, switch check, leakage check ok. dc cal spot on with my better references. turnover ok at 2.5v, no 200mv reference at the moment.

NO AC volts function. I have a couple days to return it. But I would like to know if say an ac coupling cap could cause this. I was planning to recap anyway.

Fuses ok in self test.

Can a bad fuseable protection device cause only a no AC problem?

I will contact the seller now to see if I can open and explore. I'd keep it if I know caps or fusable causes problem.

Thanks

P.S.

best choice for fusables in flukes? Can ptc polyfuses work? I have an assortment on hand.

Thanks.

P.S. 2

I noticed if I put my 2.5v negative reference while on 2v range I get expected OL. If I put positive 2.5 on 2v range I get 1.96xx

P.S. B

read all these almost 500 posts.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2017, 07:31:58 am
NO AC volts function. I have a couple days to return it. But I would like to know if say an ac coupling cap could cause this. I was planning to recap anyway.

Have you given the switch a good workout? Check the switch works with a continuity tester.

Can a bad fuseable protection device cause only a no AC problem?

The schematic shows two fusible resistors but they wouldn't affect only the AC range.

Maybe it's the TRMS converter. Get your oscilloscope out and have a look at the signals on S3B and S3D (Switch 3, contacts B+D). See manual/schematic for details.

(Isn't it nice having a proper manual?)


Recapping an 8060A:

(I apologize for the long length of this post and perhaps too much detail here. But not everyone doing this has your years of experience. Use good ESD practices.)

It'll be my first time.  :)

Digikey wants $19 shipping for $8 of caps (the joys of not living in the USA) so I'm looking at other things that probably need recapping, too. Might as well order stuff in batches.

It's also a good excuse to finally get a hot air gun. Nothing fancy - I don't sit all day doing rework or SMD PCBs.

I can't see any visible corrosion or 'spewage' in my capacitors so I figure a few more weeks won't hurt.

Edit: I think I'm going to need a bigger bottle of IPA...  :scared:
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2017, 08:09:03 am
I like my 8060A. It's my new favorite meter. I like the way it works, I think I prefer the side switches to dials.

Here's some pics of it measuring things on my little home-made reference box. This is untweaked, exactly how it arrived from eBay.

I need to add some more voltage ranges to my box. I need something around 1V and something around 190mV to give the 8060A a proper workout.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2017, 09:04:30 am
Perhaps this issue needs a separate post elsewhere, to keep things here more On Topic   :)

Maybe you could start your very own "Electro Detective's Rants" thread.   8)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on August 26, 2017, 09:45:28 am
Perhaps this issue needs a separate post elsewhere, to keep things here more On Topic   :)

Maybe you could start your very own "Electro Detective's Rants" thread.   8)

That's too much thunder and views to jack from the members   ;D

Then again, some of these company reps that lurk here might take note, buckle up and get into some prodding back at HQ to lift their game
and supply some TRULY ROBUST professional field tech and lab products, that customers old and new might consider worth paying big dollars for, 

if their CEOs ever get woken up, unglued and airlifted from their chairs, (take a break from strenuous line work and custom massages) to work out why they get paid too much,
and make an effort to justify it.

Someone pinch me, this dream is going nowhere fast   :-[





 

 



Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: jh15 on August 26, 2017, 04:10:24 pm
Thanks, Fungus.

All the switches are solid, no scratchyness. I also did all the self tests including the switch tests. All ok according to table. Not sure how thorough that is.

I don't want to lose my chance of returning it. I wrote the seller last night asking if I could poke around inside, but haven't heard from him yet.

Further pondering of schematic tells me the cap replacement list would not be related to the trms area anyway.

The ac coupling cap on the input is unlikely to be bad.

Bummer, I thought I'd be able to use it this weekend in DB mode to work on broadcast and recording studio upgrades.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2017, 05:02:25 pm
Thanks, Fungus.

All the switches are solid, no scratchyness. I also did all the self tests including the switch tests. All ok according to table. Not sure how thorough that is.

The self-test isn't a complete test. Each switch has multiple pairs of contacts on it, I don't think it can test all of them.

I don't want to lose my chance of returning it. I wrote the seller last night asking if I could poke around inside, but haven't heard from him yet.

If it was described as working and the AC is completely dead then you have a reason to send it back. You won't have much trouble getting another one if you live in the USA.

If it was described as "as-is" then get your screwdriver out.

Further pondering of schematic tells me the cap replacement list would not be related to the trms area anyway.

The ac coupling cap on the input is unlikely to be bad.

I've read of several cases where caps have leaked and corroded other traces on the PCB. If you've read this thread then you know Dr.T mentions this problem frequently.

Bummer, I thought I'd be able to use it this weekend in DB mode to work on broadcast and recording studio upgrades.

That is what it was designed to be good at.  :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on August 26, 2017, 05:25:16 pm
NO AC volts function.
If you can't return it or decide to keep it, my 8060A arrived with bad, but not obviously bulged visible caps.  They spewed from the bottom and some electrolyte managed to wick its way up the AC calibration pot.  A couple of turns full left and full right got my AC working.  Obviously, you may have a different problem, but something worth considering?

BTW, the 8060A manual suggests

Switches S3D, S3B
Check power supply connections

J13 Vss
J7 Com
J12 Vdd
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 26, 2017, 09:58:08 pm
BTW, the 8060A manual suggests

Switches S3D, S3B
Check power supply connections

J13 Vss
J7 Com
J12 Vdd

Yes, I posted that above.  :)

The trick is that all the switch's contacts are exposed on the top of the switches. It makes it really easy to poke at the circuitry and see what's going on.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Mr. Scram on August 27, 2017, 04:01:37 pm
Many thanks to Mr. Taylor for the generous postings here   :clap: :clap:

Everyone here realises the plastic post screw casing fiasco isn't on him,

nor is it an exclusive Fluke thing, despite it still going on!    :palm:

Here's one of my Fluke 87Vs that I opened recently for the first time to give it a check and borrow it's fuse to test another meter   

As I unscrewed I felt/heard a crack type sound, and assumed it was the self tapping screw binding on the post.  :-//

Upon close inspection...well, a picture is like a thousand words 


i.e. the sucker was spot welded to the post, so of course any normal force to unscrew it, cracked the post!

I'm past ranting about this stuff, the manufacturers charging big dollars and boasting CAT Rated explosive containment that isn't better than many $6.99 One Hung TuLo meters,

need to get their act into gear ASAP.


Perhaps this issue needs a separate post elsewhere, to keep things here more On Topic   :)
Why did the post crack exactly? I don't quite get the gist of the spot welding remark.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on August 27, 2017, 04:46:05 pm
Why did the post crack exactly? I don't quite get the gist of the spot welding remark.

I guess Electro Detective was saying, that the screw bonded e.g. "spot welded" with the screw post, thus needing excessive (in regard to pure stick/slip friction between metal and plastic) force to loosen the connection.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Mr. Scram on August 27, 2017, 05:06:17 pm
Why did the post crack exactly? I don't quite get the gist of the spot welding remark.

I guess Electro Detective was saying, that the screw bonded e.g. "spot welded" with the screw post, thus needing excessive (in regard to pure stick/slip friction between metal and plastic) force to loosen the connection.
Ah. I wonder what could be done to mitigate the issue. Cracking your hundreds of dollars costing device is never a lot of fun. Maybe some light penetrating oil might help, or vibrating the screw while trying to unscrew it?

So much innuendo.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: switcher on August 27, 2017, 09:46:48 pm
I had the perfect job for my 8060 today; to which no other meter is better suited; in conjunction with my HP signal generator (from 1970) checking the crossovers and drive units in my B&W speakers.  :-+
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: jh15 on August 28, 2017, 02:59:41 am
Haven't heard a reply from the seller of my 8060a.  He said to contact within 3 days to work stuff out in his ad. I did, so will wait. Also 30 day return with me paying shipping.

Still willing to open and t-shoot.

Fully qualified for this with esd station, and pedigree of Lead Tech with technicians repairing Flukes in aerospace and avionics instrument repair labs. 
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rsjsouza on August 28, 2017, 03:57:47 pm
I have encountered those problem occasionally, but never on a meter that was owned by me from first hand.

Being careful is always a considerable option. On the other hand I can not deny that self-tapping screws are usually a sign for cheaply made products. Even the Voltcraft 6010  (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/voltcraft-6010-(nos-from-1984)-unboxing-and-teardown-(picture-heavy)/msg1179444/#msg1179444)made in Korea by Hung Chang (rebranded HC601) has brass inserts.

Remember that Fluke pioneered the handheld LCD DMM with the release of the 8020. The 8060s case was derived from that and the means of screwing the halves together was developed for the 8020 and its derivatives. This type of plastic does get more brittle over time, but for the most part, the self-tapping (designed for plastic) screw sheathes have held up fine. Brass inserts are no panacea as I have seen them pulled out or actually break the plastic they are swedged into. I never over tighten the mounting screws and never use an electric screwdriver to put them in. BTW, I would not lube the screws, just be careful.

In my experience I confirm what David is saying: despite self tapping screws fare a bit worse, brass inserts have their problems as well. I lost count of so many times a screw on a brass insert was simply "stuck" due to corrosion that caused the plastic post to give up. Self tapping screws are not inert to this (one of my 8020As has mildly corroded screws which cause additional friction), but my experience tells me how brittle the plastic gets over time is the most defining factor on this.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on August 28, 2017, 05:52:48 pm
Can anyone tell me what thermoplastic the newer Fluke multimeters are made out of? I was looking for recycling info markings on a lot of teardown photos, but could not find anything useful :/ I have seen a whole lot of different Fluke tools in ABS injection molded housings though. I expect quality tools to feature quality materials such as glass fiber reinforced PA6, PC or something comparable instead of cheap-arse ABS.
Back in the day, there were not that many options to choose from, but that is so much different now.
Regarding brass inserts: If done right, they do a tremendous job. However molding them in ABS is still just a half-baked solution.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on August 29, 2017, 04:22:15 am
Why did the post crack exactly? I don't quite get the gist of the spot welding remark.

I guess Electro Detective was saying, that the screw bonded e.g. "spot welded" with the screw post, thus needing excessive (in regard to pure stick/slip friction between metal and plastic) force to loosen the connection.


Perfect guess   :clap: 

I would bet with confidence that many Fluke owners here would find the same crack fiasco in one form or another in their meters too

The cracks will happen no matter how careful you are unscrewing, screwing, pre-lubing, heating, praying yours came from Wednesday batch, whatever... 

The issue is in the too -hard basket- even for genies, wizards, witches and the horned dude below    >:D

Fluke need to supply all owners with updated front covers that have proper CAT containment metal inserts and screw kits

Otherwise the hyped Fluke will blow out just as fast as any $6.99 Hung Too Lo meter in the hands of a DIYtard

My money is on the $6.99 HTL meter posts to hold up better during The BIG BANG   ;D




Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 29, 2017, 08:18:59 pm
Anybody want a blue one?  :popcorn:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/162649858342 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/162649858342)


This one appears to have no serial number on the back.  Is it one of the pre-production units? :-//

http://www.ebay.com/itm/162648532644 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/162648532644)

Edit: The pixels where the serial number should be are slightly discolored. I wonder if the seller photoshopped it.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: switcher on August 29, 2017, 09:27:41 pm
This one is a very late model, note how you have to remove the lower case screw to access the battery compartment.

This one appears to have no serial number on the back.  Is it one of the pre-production units? :-//

http://www.ebay.com/itm/162648532644 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/162648532644)

Edit: The pixels where the serial number should be are slightly discolored. I wonder if the seller photoshopped it.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Neomys Sapiens on August 29, 2017, 10:40:47 pm

The issue is in the too -hard basket- even for genies, wizards, witches and the horned dude below    >:D


What? I have been cheated again! The all-in-one DevilDriver(TM) which I aquired at the price of one puny human soul will not handle this? Good it wasn't mine - succubus took it long ago - or the MI complex.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2017, 03:20:38 pm
Anybody want a blue one?  :popcorn:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/162649858342 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/162649858342)

Too late, it's gone!

(Was it somebody from here...?)


Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on August 31, 2017, 12:06:09 am
That nice grey/gray/non-blue one is still on offer    http://www.ebay.com/itm/162648532644 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/162648532644) 

What's everyone waiting for?  a suspect one from an Ebayer playing dumb  :-//   ('powers up' BS)  that's more expensive,
so you can blow a weekend to troubleshoot, clean, recap, rebuild.. praying the MAC isn't nuked at the end of the ordeal?    |O 

If it was local to me I'd snap it up in a heartbeat, two 8060As have to be better than one, and keep each other company if I'm not there   8) 


The real clincher to buy is the 8060A is a  Pre-Cancer model  afaik   :phew:   

eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-87v-causes-cancer


Just don't eat or smoke it or try use it as a sack toy and you'll do ok   :-+

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bitseeker on August 31, 2017, 01:34:28 am
Just don't eat or smoke it [...] and you'll do ok   :-+

Try, I shall. ;D
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 31, 2017, 08:33:39 am
That nice grey/gray/non-blue one is still on offer    http://www.ebay.com/itm/162648532644 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/162648532644) 

There's really no shortage of them on eBay.

One went a couple of weeks ago for $66, new in box with everything. Serial number in the 400s so probably a good one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/232447297288 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/232447297288?orig_cvip=true)

I watched it go with great sadness because I live in Europe so I get to pay $50 for shipping plus another $40 import tax, and ... I'd already bought an 8060A two weeks before that.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on August 31, 2017, 09:38:07 am
It must be a lucky week, I just scored one locally and it looks like it was either owned by a heavy smoker (now one with the Earth / final smoko) 

or Bruce Banner's personal meter, because the grey/gray has turned GREEN  :o

I'm not one to gas about test equipment eye candy, though it does have a cool vintage 'Camo' vibe to it,
bought it because the display is bright and contrasty, and everything appears to work fine and in spec.


I'll pull it apart asap and see if there's any homework to do on it..

It was covered in CAL stickers, so I am optimistic that someone else has already performed the 'classic resto' honors   :clap:


Update: it's a Revision J,
no name caps but not leaking or obese,
very clean board (cleaner now, with cotton bud and IPA)
nuked battery compartment a mess, all good now.
on off switch seized up, after one careful drop of Servisol in the right spot, now works like new (maybe better!) 
Original internal HRC 3A fuse is ok, and has an inline quality ceramic 2A British style (RS badged) fast blow 'user replaceable' fuse in the battery compartment, instead of the glass ones I expect  :-+ 
I suspect this Fluke may be a UK model because the 2A British style fuse slots in perfectly.  :-//

Here's the killer:
Dust balls in 2 switches at the exposed open end inside the meter, spotted by..fluke!  unbelievable!  had to pick them out with a tiny bent pin, go figure.. 
I reckon this may be why the meter was sold off cheap, intermittent connections perhaps?  :-//

Anyway, this classic meter in a quick shootout with a recent CAL 87V in High Res Mode agree on everything to the last digit, including fluctuating 240 volt mains and insulation tests, uncanny  :o 

I'll compare it with my other 8060A asap as an exercise in futility    ;D

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bitseeker on August 31, 2017, 05:30:45 pm
One went a couple of weeks ago for $66, new in box with everything. Serial number in the 400s so probably a good one.

It appears to even have its original battery (thankfully not installed). Amazing.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 31, 2017, 05:45:55 pm
One went a couple of weeks ago for $66, new in box with everything. Serial number in the 400s so probably a good one.

It appears to even have its original battery (thankfully not installed). Amazing.

I did snipe on it but my bid came in third. Oh, well. There's plenty of 8060As around but I don't know if there'll ever be another one like that.  :-\
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on August 31, 2017, 06:08:54 pm
One went a couple of weeks ago for $66, new in box with everything. Serial number in the 400s so probably a good one.
It works perfectly.  And not a scratch on it.   ;D
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on August 31, 2017, 06:24:58 pm
One went a couple of weeks ago for $66, new in box with everything. Serial number in the 400s so probably a good one.
It works perfectly.  And not a scratch on it.   ;D

So it was you.  :-DD

I'm not going to complain, at least it's in the family.

(leave it to me in your will.  :P)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on August 31, 2017, 08:53:41 pm
I just couldn't let a new-in-box 8060A get away.  It will have an easy life along with a few other NIB multimeters I've acquired.

Not sure about the will, I was planning to take this DMM, my Tek 465, and a set of Wiha screwdrivers with me when I go...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bitseeker on August 31, 2017, 10:04:33 pm
Congrats, ModemHead!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on September 01, 2017, 12:45:57 am
Awesome snag Mr. ModemHead!   :clap:      fwiw watch out for pyramid robbers

and the Use By Date on the battery is...?    :-// 

If it's the original supplied battery, subtracting 3 years?  might hint at when the meter was made and shipped from Fluke

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on September 01, 2017, 07:11:47 am
$66 is a darn good price for that, I don't expect to see another NIB 8060A any time soon.

I would have bid it to $120 if I lived in the USA.  ::)  (heads over to TEA thread for therapy)

From the serial number I'd guess it was made a year or two before mine, so ... around 1988.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ModemHead on September 01, 2017, 12:57:33 pm
From the serial number I'd guess it was made a year or two before mine, so ... around 1988.
Good guess.  The date code on the Fluke RMS converter is 8649, so the unit was probably manufactured in early 1987. The board rev is "H".  The battery was made long before they started putting use-by dates on them.  It is a nasty corroded mess on the back side.  It's an interesting relic, but I won't be keeping it in the box for sure.  The operator's guide is already stained a bit.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ThunderCat on September 01, 2017, 06:06:29 pm
Great score!

I didn't know the value of a Fluke until I did my research and also learned from venerable Dave here. I got a Fluke 87 and haven't looked back!! I love vintage stuff like this too though!!

Mike
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on September 01, 2017, 10:47:06 pm
...The date code on the Fluke RMS converter is 8649, so the unit was probably manufactured in early 1987. The board rev is "H".

If you get around to popping the hood again, it would be interesting what brand or no name capacitors are in there, and their unused 'time capsule' condition

Hopefully no leakage and meter in perfect spec like my recent ex R+D 8060A acquire noted earlier above, bashed but not beaten  :box: :-+

which was covered with multiple calibration stickers and unbelievably never opened !

i.e. no cracked posts  :o :o  when I opened it up, with the original powdered plastic on the 3 screws 

and yes the rear rubber feet had turned to runny road tar  :D

LOL, maybe the 'CAL lab' used the 8060A as THE reference to check their gear was up to speed,
and just slapped 'feel good' cal stickers on the 8060A without opening it to adjust anything
...lining their pockets with no brainer easy cash    >:D

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: jh15 on September 02, 2017, 08:15:20 pm
yup.

All functions perfect, spot on with dc reference, and DB works, which is why I wanted it.

Probably catch up in the studios this holiday with it.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on September 02, 2017, 11:36:55 pm
...All functions perfect, spot on with dc reference, and DB works...

IIRC yours had some AC? dramas, did you work out the exact problem

or a good TLC, re-work/touchup and working the switches got it going again? 

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on September 02, 2017, 11:44:11 pm
I'm in no hurry to do an 8060A recap, as both meters appear and test ok for now   :phew:

but if/when I have to (hopefully NEVER, or later) is there any value in having the replacement cap bodies not quite flush to the board

allowing a small "IPA Friendly" space between the board and cap body?

Advantages as I see them:

Easy to spot a leak or spew

Convenient to carefully spray or encourage some IPA under there, keeping the board free of unwanted fine dust and moisture trails


Some component leg flashing wouldn't hurt some of the guys here either  8)

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: WastelandTek on September 03, 2017, 05:04:08 am
One went a couple of weeks ago for $66, new in box with everything. Serial number in the 400s so probably a good one.
It works perfectly.  And not a scratch on it.   ;D

good lord!

pack that thing in nitrogen immediately!   ;)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rsjsouza on September 03, 2017, 10:24:45 am
allowing a small "IPA Friendly" space between the board and cap body?
When I recapped my 8060A, one (or more) capacitors were under the display assembly which constrained the maximum height.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters ebay finds
Post by: jh15 on September 03, 2017, 04:01:26 pm
I received this week an 8060a with original probes and case, and a blue IBM with crappy probes, no case.
I have a free shipping label to ship back the one I got a few weeks ago with no AC function, and a display with some segment blackening beginning.

Opened the Fluke brand and saw no schmoo around capacitors that I could spot with the top only off.

Both dead on with my little dc reference, self tests and switch tests clean, and most importantly, the DB function working.

Displays are like new.

Interesting that IBM has a large "DB" on the function switch label.

I got cases with my Flukes, but none with the IBM. Maybe because it was in a field service kit? Something to consider.

My second fluke and pouch smells wicked musty . I'm going to try a short session with my ozone generator.

Now need to research the capacitor lists, although I'm putting these in service for now.

I'll update any interesting stuff if I go for the cap replacement.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on September 05, 2017, 09:36:49 am
More 8060A pimp up work:  8)

My new old 'vintage green' Fluke I scored last week (with 100% CAL lab specs!  :o) had no kickstand, perished rubber feet, and no leads...   

i.e. it looked pretty ordinary in it's no-frills state, and since I had a knackered Brymen meter that the seller replaced asap, kindly letting me keep the faulty one, I got thinking...


Here's the 'Brymenized' Fluke 8060A that's now ready for serious work, bump friendly, and looking good in 2017  :-DMM


FWIW: If you seal it in a sandwich bag and tape off the leads, you get an improvised "Fluke 8060A-EX Intrinsically Safe Multimeter" useable in underground mines and other expl0sive environments,
...but more important is the ability to survive a tool bag drop in a mate's swimming pool after work, during 'Happy Friday' drinks slabs    :-+ :-+

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: tautech on September 05, 2017, 09:44:09 am
 :scared:
It's a Fluke...........it must be YELLOW.  :P
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on September 05, 2017, 09:53:35 am
:scared:
It's a Fluke...........it must be YELLOW.  :P


My other one got the 'yellow' treatment 20 years ago, that's why it's still in good nick today    :phew:


Gotta give the Brymen fans here a fair go too   8) 


and just in case the classic yellow holster loses favor and need to wave RED  :-DMM to get into building site cafeterias
>:D





Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Lax Luthier on September 09, 2017, 03:50:04 pm
Old... when I was in the US Navy in the early 1970s we used some Fluke differential voltmeters with decade switches and null meters. Cumbersome but very accurate.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: cnqhdszq on September 19, 2017, 01:06:32 pm
I am learning english through reading this thread ,but it is hard to find this thread in  "Test Equipment"  group |O , so I have to post these words .  hope somebody to help me  ^-^
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: yo0 on September 26, 2017, 04:35:33 am
hello, anybody have a picture of the 300v version of the 8060a? i never have seen any. unless the exterior labels be the same in both 1000v and 300v (i doubt it), if yes how to know which is which?  :-//

best regards


Pio
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: helius on September 26, 2017, 06:54:15 am
hello, anybody have a picture of the 300v version of the 8060a? i never have seen any. unless the exterior labels be the same in both 1000v and 300v (i doubt it), if yes how to know which is which?

In 1990, the "CAT standards" (Measurement Categories per IEC 61010-1) for meters were released. The Fluke 8060A can only withstand 300V on its resistance ranges, so it can only meet CAT I 300V. To qualify for a "CAT I" label, the voltage ranges were reduced to 300V for both DC and AC. Otherwise, I don't think the meter was changed: it is no safer than the unmodified 8060A.

It can be recognized by two differences from the normal model: the presence of "CAT I" below and to the right of the red jack, and the highest voltage range is marked "300V \$ \simeq \$ " instead of the normal "1000V DC / 750V AC". In addition, the maximal voltage limits printed underneath the jacks are lower (300V MAX from common to earth instead of 500V, and 300V \$ \simeq \$ from red to common instead of 1000V DC / 750V AC MAX).

Here's a picture: https://cache.osta.ee/iv2/auctions/1_9_30853067.jpg
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2017, 08:23:16 am
The Fluke 8060A can only withstand 300V on its resistance ranges

My copy of the manual says "Overload protection: 500V DC or RMS AC" for the resistance ranges.  :)

It also says things like this for the voltage ranges:

"Overload protection: 1000V DC or peak AC continuous, 20 seconds maximum on 200mV and 2V ranges above 300V DC or RMS AC"
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: helius on September 26, 2017, 09:09:01 am
Some issues of the manual did contain misprints. But I think you are right that it was intended to have 500V peak protection on Ohms, as that was advertised. The copy you can download from fluke.com does say 300V: http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/8060a___imeng0300.pdf (http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/8060a___imeng0300.pdf)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on September 26, 2017, 10:50:38 am
Some issues of the manual did contain misprints. But I think you are right that it was intended to have 500V peak protection on Ohms, as that was advertised.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=354784;image)

The copy you can download from fluke.com does say 300V

Looks like they changed the maximums to 300V all through the manual. I smell lawyers.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: yo0 on September 27, 2017, 02:44:34 am
hello, anybody have a picture of the 300v version of the 8060a? i never have seen any. unless the exterior labels be the same in both 1000v and 300v (i doubt it), if yes how to know which is which?

In 1990, the "CAT standards" (Measurement Categories per IEC 61010-1) for meters were released. The Fluke 8060A can only withstand 300V on its resistance ranges, so it can only meet CAT I 300V. To qualify for a "CAT I" label, the voltage ranges were reduced to 300V for both DC and AC. Otherwise, I don't think the meter was changed: it is no safer than the unmodified 8060A.

It can be recognized by two differences from the normal model: the presence of "CAT I" below and to the right of the red jack, and the highest voltage range is marked "300V \$ \simeq \$ " instead of the normal "1000V DC / 750V AC". In addition, the maximal voltage limits printed underneath the jacks are lower (300V MAX from common to earth instead of 500V, and 300V \$ \simeq \$ from red to common instead of 1000V DC / 750V AC MAX).

Here's a picture: https://cache.osta.ee/iv2/auctions/1_9_30853067.jpg



thank you very much for the info!


best regards.



Pio
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: med6753 on September 30, 2017, 04:35:10 pm
Seems old Fluke bench multimeters are somewhat under represented in this thread so let me contribute. Top to bottom:

8600A
8000A
8010A
8050A

And just peeking in lower left...

8021A
1st generation 87.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on October 27, 2017, 07:14:49 pm
So today I got my first (and most likely last) "new" Fluke DMMs.
I bought two defective units - a 76 and a 79-II - for dirt cheap via small ads.

/* minirant
Since all my other Fluke meters are 8020B, 8060A (8050A bench DMM) and the like, I was really shocked at how shitty the 7X meters are built. How could anyone actually pay real money for these things?
I guess they are good in terms of accuracy, but every other aspect is such a turn-off for me.
*/

I could revive the 79-II without any problems (LCD needed replacement, fuses missing, case and front label are pretty scuffed, everything else seems fine).
The 76 has a case in near mint condition (sadly not easily interchangeable with the 79 case), apart from that the meter is dead ATM. Someone started rebuilding some broken traces and I might just keep it to salvage parts instead of figuring out everything wrong with this thing.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on October 27, 2017, 08:21:57 pm
Someone started rebuilding some broken traces ...

 :scared:

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on October 27, 2017, 08:49:04 pm
It’s not in the power section though :)
There seems to have been some minor liquid intrusion that lead to disintegration of some traces. The general board quality is absolutely below grade - at least for what I would have expected from a professional 1990s made measurement device.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on March 13, 2018, 12:43:48 pm
Another 80xx meter has landed :) This time it is an 8024A.

What’s odd to me: The fuse holder is stuck on the back of the battery connector. Also it is only for a 2A 250V 5x20mm glass fuse (AGX-2).
The assembly is made out of riveted card board. There are also no rubber feet on the back.
Am I correct in guessing this meter is pre 1980s?

Would you be interested in tear down pictures?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on March 13, 2018, 02:47:36 pm
Would you be interested in tear down pictures?

What do you think?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rsjsouza on March 13, 2018, 03:58:49 pm
Another 80xx meter has landed :) This time it is an 8024A.

What’s odd to me: The fuse holder is stuck on the back of the battery connector. Also it is only for a 2A 250V 5x20mm glass fuse (AGX-2).
The assembly is made out of riveted card board. There are also no rubber feet on the back.
Am I correct in guessing this meter is pre 1980s?

Would you be interested in tear down pictures?
The design was done mid to late 1970s - that is how they rolled back then...  8)

The earlier 8020A/8022A/8024A family of portable Flukes usually had a single 2A fuse tied to the battery - the road to CAT ratings was still being paved.

The later "B" revisions of these meters replaced it with an HRC 3A fuse inside the meter.

The 8024A/8024B/8060A/8062A had two fuses: the glass and the HRC. 

Modemhead's excellent teardown of an 8020B (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8020b-teardown-30yo-dmm-technology/)
This 8024B teardown (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8024b-33-years-old-and-still-going-strong!-beware-3mb-photos/) from the user Spawn has pictures missing from the server (expired account). I'll ask him if they can be re-posted.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on March 13, 2018, 06:03:22 pm
The earlier 8020A/8022A/8024A family of portable Flukes usually had a single 2A fuse tied to the battery - the road to CAT ratings was still being paved.

The later "B" revisions of these meters replaced it with an HRC 3A fuse inside the meter.

[...]
This 8024B teardown (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8024b-33-years-old-and-still-going-strong!-beware-3mb-photos/) from the user Spawn has pictures missing from the server (expired account). I'll ask him if they can be re-posted.

Thanks for the info :) Funny enough, the copy of the 8024A manual I found features the same HRC + glass fuse configuration as the 8020B, 8060A you mentioned.

Given that the pictures are not accessible any more and me liking to take some photos, I will write a small article with pictures.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rsjsouza on March 13, 2018, 08:15:28 pm
The earlier 8020A/8022A/8024A family of portable Flukes usually had a single 2A fuse tied to the battery - the road to CAT ratings was still being paved.

The later "B" revisions of these meters replaced it with an HRC 3A fuse inside the meter.

[...]
This 8024B teardown (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8024b-33-years-old-and-still-going-strong!-beware-3mb-photos/) from the user Spawn has pictures missing from the server (expired account). I'll ask him if they can be re-posted.

Thanks for the info :) Funny enough, the copy of the 8024A manual I found features the same HRC + glass fuse configuration as the 8020B, 8060A you mentioned.

Given that the pictures are not accessible any more and me liking to take some photos, I will write a small article with pictures.
You are absolutely right; my list above should not include the 8024A.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Fungus on March 13, 2018, 09:43:45 pm
Thanks for the info :) Funny enough, the copy of the 8024A manual I found features the same HRC + glass fuse configuration as the 8020B, 8060A you mentioned.

Yes, it was common to have a small glass fuse to protect the big expensive fuse from stupid (and costly) mistakes. I've got a fluke from the 1980s that does it.

I wonder why they don't still do this, it makes a lot of sense to me.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on March 13, 2018, 10:10:33 pm
Yes, it was common to have a small glass fuse to protect the big expensive fuse from stupid (and costly) mistakes. I've got a fluke from the 1980s that does it.

I wonder why they don't still do this, it makes a lot of sense to me.

Both, my 8060A and 8020B have this configuration. The 8024A however has only the glass fuse. From the dates on the ICs, mine is from 1979/1980. The fuse configuration seems to have been changed on the later 8024As as well, since that is what the manual shows.
I took some photos and will put them on my imgur to share with y’all.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: EE-digger on March 15, 2018, 01:12:15 am
My old 8060A is still my favorite handheld DMM.  Bought it new around 28 years ago.

But this little baby has a special place in my heart.  The last time I used it I was working on a TEC cooled laser and wanted to read temperature from the onboard thermistor.  I just programmed in the Steinhart and Hart equation for the thermistor and voila, instant temperature readings !

The 8860A is fully programmable from the keypad in the image.  Sort of reverse polish, it's been a few years since I used it.

This was a good unit but a few years after I got it, I lost one of the primary windings.  As far as I recall, I was able to re-wire the other half of the primary winding.  Also had to poke around and replace 1 or 2 regulators.  I believe the PCB was fairly well labeled which was a huge help, without a schematic.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on March 15, 2018, 07:17:57 am
My old 8060A is still my favorite handheld DMM.  Bought it new around 28 years ago.

Congrats, that is one nice meter! :clap:
Here is a link to the service manual and schematics for this beauty: https://elektrotanya.com/fluke_8860a_sm.zip/download.html

You need to wait about 30 seconds until the ...processing... on the bottom of the page changes to a direct download link.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on March 15, 2018, 05:08:29 pm
Here is an imgur Album of my 8024A (https://imgur.com/gallery/4wjal) :)

Also, some quick snapshots of the 8020B, 8024A and 8060A agreeing on some mV, V and mA values.

Here are various forward voltage readings of my meters in diode test mode, figures in brackets are taken with my 8060A in series to measure testing current - except 8060A in series with 8050A:

Diode: 1N4007

8020B: 0.680 V (0.805 V, 0.8069 mA)
8024A: 0.853 V (0.975 V, 0.6367 mA)
8060A: 0.5797 V (0.6781 V, 0.9748 mA)
8050A: 0.6421 V (0.7583 V, 0.8702 mA)
79SeriesII: 0.552 V (0.607 V, 0.6041 mA)
UT139C: 0.587 V (0.683, 1.0061 mA)
HC601: 0.794 V (0.915 V, 0.6854 mA)
VC6010: 0.746 V (0.867 V, 0.7355 mA)

Can you calibrate this separately in the meters or is it just depending on the overall V / A calibration?

Pictures: ca. 190 mV, 18.8 V, 18 mA, 88.8 mA from Oltronix B703DT
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: EE-digger on March 15, 2018, 11:47:32 pm
Thank you so much !  I didn't even realize produced manuals like that.  This will keep it going another 30 years or more  :-+
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Neomys Sapiens on March 16, 2018, 12:06:07 am
Here are various forward voltage readings of my meters in diode test mode, figures in brackets are taken with my 8060A in series to measure testing current - except 8060A in series with 8050A:

Diode: 1N4007

8020B: 0.680 V (0.805 V, 0.8069 mA)
8024A: 0.853 V (0.975 V, 0.6367 mA)
8060A: 0.5797 V (0.6781 V, 0.9748 mA)
8050A: 0.6421 V (0.7583 V, 0.8702 mA)
79SeriesII: 0.552 V (0.607 V, 0.6041 mA)
UT139C: 0.587 V (0.683, 1.0061 mA)
HC601: 0.794 V (0.915 V, 0.6854 mA)
VC6010: 0.746 V (0.867 V, 0.7355 mA)

Can you calibrate this separately in the meters or is it just depending on the overall V / A calibration?

:wtf:
Fuh, that is some serious spread. I think It would be a good approach to take a comparison measurement with a resistor too, and then to separate the errors of the current source and the reading.
But I do not like at all what you found.
Will do some measurements too when time allows.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: helius on March 16, 2018, 12:51:29 am
They seem to be roughly proportional to the test current, which is no big surprise. For actually characterizing semiconductor junctions (and not just verifying if they are short/good/open) you need a curve tracer.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on March 16, 2018, 01:15:19 pm
Measurements on VEB decade resistance boxes 0.1\$\Omega\$, 100\$\Omega\$, 10 k\$\Omega\$ and 100 k\$\Omega\$, test leads shorted measure: 0.05\$\Omega\$

DMM Model1 x 0.1\$\Omega\$ 1 x 100\$\Omega\$ 1 x 10 k\$\Omega\$ 10 x 10 k\$\Omega\$
UT139C000.1/.0099.910.00k100.0k
8060A0.10/.0999.9710.004k1000.06k
8050A00.1099.9810.007k100.08k
8024A00.1/.299.8/.910.00k100.1k
8020B00.1/.2100.010.00k100.1k
79II00.10100.010.01k100.1k
HC60100.199.810.00k99.9k
VC601000.1/.299.7/.810.01k100.1k

DMMs in the most suitable measuring range available, 79II with calibrated 40\$\Omega\$range for 0.1\$\Omega\$measurement. 8050A and 8060A in relative mode to shorted leads

Edit: /.value indicates the meter alternating on two values.

OT: Formatting around that fugly »ohms« symbol is a pain in the b :/
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: TechieTX on April 03, 2018, 01:13:38 am
Testament to Dr. Taylor's work: I have a D800 (the 8020a but without the conductance range marked, although it works...)  It's been in constant use since I bought it in late 1980.  It's still within cal, as far as I've tested with precision voltage & resistance.  None of the caps have started to leak on this 37 year old DMM.  The display has been dodgy for the last 10 years, but it's still usable AND used.  It's only wart is a 0.2" cracked corner on the upper housing from when it took a swan dive off of a 30' roof onto a concrete sidewalk.  I'd like to see any of the Chinese clones beat that longevity.

Yeah, I know I should tear it down and replace the electrolytics, but I'd rather keep it pristine and retire it gracefully when it eventually meets it's end.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: mqsaharan on April 13, 2018, 10:56:33 am
@drtylor
Thank you for your efforts to make such a useful instrument with decent ranges. I didn't even know it until I read your post about these meters. I chose it after I got somewhat disappointed with the new meters. And after I used it, I liked it even more and bought another.

I have a few basic/beginner questions.
1. What are the pros/cons of C28, a 10uF 16V capacitor across VR2, Bandgap Reference Diode. It was removed in the later revisions by you, I presume, but its footprints remain there.
(i installed it and the only thing I have noticed so far is that it has become a bit more sensitive to the touch. Now the digits jump to a higher number when I start sliding my hand up near the V jack in AC function. Other than that I haven't seen any difference in my very limited testing.)
2. If I calibrate the 2V DC range, the 200mV DC range gets affected no matter how little and vice versa. Is it normal or there is something wrong with some component(s). I ended up adjusting both ranges alternatively.
3. What reading of Ratio Test should I consider? It starts sometimes from as low as 9992 and counts up to 9997.
4. How this meter should count up for the LSD? What I am trying to ask here is should the meter show 1.2345 or flicker between 1.2344 and 1.2345 when the actual input is 1.23445 or when the actual input is 1.23449.


The reason for disturbing its calibration pots.
I wanted it to match in reading with my other meter. It was reading about 6-8 counts lower than the other one.
I guess my other meter is better calibrated.
After calibration, its readings perfectly match with my other meter. (The other meter is also an 8060A.)


A little history of the meter in question.
I probably should mention that this is an old meter with serial number 408xxxx. I bought it used about 8 months ago. I have a few guesses about its history. These are
a) It was purchased somewhere around 1990.
b) Sent to Fluke for repair (in 93 as per calibration sticker on it), as its two 1K input fusible resistors were replaced. The calibration seal was intact when I bought it.
c) It was not used much by its original owner because the DF and ESR of all the electrolytic capacitors was well below their maximum values.

What I have done so far.
After reading so many posts about the electrolytic capacitor, I opened it up. The capacitors looked and measured fine as per the United Chemicon datasheets that I could have found for their new series small and the low leakage capacitors. But just to be on the safe side, I replaced them with solid tantalums with as low ESR as I could have found. Their ESR is better than the original Aluminium Electrolytics. I didn't measure the leakage current of these tantalums. I hope it will not be horrible because all the test points are giving healthy measurements.
After replacing the capacitors, I cleaned all the flux residue also from the previous repair made by Fluke.
Then I gave it a long IPA bath. And lately I calibrated its DC function to match my other meter.
It is working fine so far.

Regards,
Qasim.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: IconicPCB on May 07, 2018, 07:59:04 am
Dont know if I ought to start up a new thread.

Just received a couple of old Flukes... an 8060A and an 87 (original).

87 is not working, have not inspected it yet. Winter is coming i am sure there will be plenty of rainy days.

the 8060A had a broken battery lead whihc was repaired  and it kind of works but not... the LCD display is a bit wonky, some of the segments are not lighting up.
I guess the zebra strip needs TLC.

What is the recommended TLC approach? hay water and oats on occasion?

PS the case is perfect... no cracks no chips... made in Holland serial number 3765479 .
Does anyone know how to decipher the blessed thing?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: NW27 on May 07, 2018, 08:10:36 am
I have a fluke 87 that the frame that clamps the lcd and conductive rubber has broken the little lugs.
Any ideas where I can buy these frames?

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: IconicPCB on May 07, 2018, 08:15:46 am
3d printer?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: mzacharias on May 07, 2018, 11:40:15 am
I have a fluke 87 that the frame that clamps the lcd and conductive rubber has broken the little lugs.
Any ideas where I can buy these frames?

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

If the case screws still tighten down OK, I have found that a few thicknesses of electrical tape near the top of the bottom shield (above the openings for the buzzer) helps to apply enough pressure for the LCD's to work, as soon as the case is tightened up.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Excavatoree on June 07, 2018, 05:47:11 pm
I have a fluke 87 that the frame that clamps the lcd and conductive rubber has broken the little lugs.
Any ideas where I can buy these frames?

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

Sorry for the late reply.   Unless it's a new Series V (5), you want Fluke part 619632.  I'm not sure if it's still available from Fluke or not.  Occaisionally, these show up on E-bay, especially from the notorious seller "A-Fluke." 

I worked on one that had several cardboard shims placed between the front case and the LCD frame, and the back case and the PCB to apply enough pressure.   Many do these repairs, and they seem to work, but I've never done it.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: 001 on September 11, 2018, 07:22:06 am
Tell me
what benefits of fluke 8010A for 2018?
When You use it really?

I see bunch of them at yours workbenches
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bd139 on September 11, 2018, 07:53:47 am
There is literally none whatsoever. Genuinely no advantage. In actual fact it's probably a liability and a time sink over something new. Unless it was free or so cheap it wasn't worth turning it down. If you need a meter and choose one of these and fix it, depending on what your time is worth you could probably cover a nice new Keysight meter for the cost.

But much like a classic car, you're not in the market for a practical device but a piece of history or something which you couldn't have when you were younger because it was expensive or difficult to get hold of at the time, or just because the indefinable quality of owning something like it.  It's a fun waste of time, and marginally more constructive than sitting in front of Netflix or taking drugs or something.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on September 11, 2018, 09:46:34 am
Using old equipment that is still going strong after years is a way of life - either you like it with all the quirks that may come with it, or not.
Personally I enjoy a lot of the design aspects and thought that went into a lot of old gear. That is why I am also running an old Kenwood A700D in my kitchen instead of a fancy new all in one wonder solution like the KCC9060S or that Thermomix abomination.

I would not use the 8010A for daily use though if I had to make a living on it - not because of accuracy concerns but because of legibility and working speed. (One day I will have the time to do a proper LED conversion...)

But basically bd139 already answered the question. :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: 001 on September 11, 2018, 10:17:21 am
I would not use the 8010A for daily use though if I had to make a living on it - not because of accuracy concerns but because of legibility and working speed. (One day I will have the time to do a proper LED conversion...)


I.e. You need only mains powered device with big LED digits, isnt it?
You sad about working speed
What do You mean since 8010A is manual range meter?

Thanx
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bd139 on September 11, 2018, 10:37:14 am
8010A is slow to settle on a reading. Only marginally slower than my U1241C though  >:(
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: 001 on September 11, 2018, 10:42:44 am
This speed depends of input "integral" capasitor at this specific ADC
see 7106 chip appnote
may be some leakage etc
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on September 11, 2018, 02:27:57 pm
Seems old Fluke bench multimeters are somewhat under represented in this thread so let me contribute. Top to bottom:

8600A
8000A
8010A
8050A

And just peeking in lower left...

8021A
1st generation 87.

I'm really happy with my 8600A which I picked up from the same seller as the HP6236B at a hamfest.   I wouldn't mind having another, or even an 8800A; it seems stable and accurate, and I can read it from a mile away even in high ambient light.  While it might annoy some people, I actually like the loud relay click when it switches ranges; it alerts me that something has changed, even if I'm not looking at the meter.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on September 11, 2018, 02:59:37 pm
You sad about working speed
What do You mean since 8010A is manual range meter?

I was not pointing to something specific, just overall convenience and speed because of general ease of reading the display or not having to switch ranges etc. It clearly depends on a lot of personal preferences.

Active LED display or a decent back light would make the 8010A much more convenient to use.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: med6753 on September 11, 2018, 03:10:08 pm
Seems old Fluke bench multimeters are somewhat under represented in this thread so let me contribute. Top to bottom:

8600A
8000A
8010A
8050A

And just peeking in lower left...

8021A
1st generation 87.

I'm really happy with my 8600A which I picked up from the same seller as the HP6236B at a hamfest.   I wouldn't mind having another, or even an 8800A; it seems stable and accurate, and I can read it from a mile away even in high ambient light.  While it might annoy some people, I actually like the loud relay click when it switches ranges; it alerts me that something has changed, even if I'm not looking at the meter.

Since that original post in September of last year I've added a 8800A to the collection. This guy is dead accurate out to 4 digits when measuring the two AD584-M references and is my bench standard.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/922/IeCqgL.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmIeCqgLj) 
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: med6753 on September 11, 2018, 03:28:04 pm
Tell me
what benefits of fluke 8010A for 2018?
When You use it really?

I see bunch of them at yours workbenches

While bd139 and frozenfrogz pretty much summed it up there's a 3rd aspect. I like understanding how they work and fixing them. And yes, you can get them cheap. And most of the parts except for some Fluke specific items are readily available. Do I use it everyday? Nope. Do I keep it calibrated? Yep. Does it have faults? Yep and that dim LCD is a big one. But there's the satisfaction of keeping this old iron going that I completely enjoy.   
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on September 11, 2018, 05:16:02 pm

Since that original post in September of last year I've added a 8800A to the collection. This guy is dead accurate out to 4 digits when measuring the two AD584-M references and is my bench standard.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/922/IeCqgL.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmIeCqgLj)

Yeah, my 8600A is my standard until proven wrong.  Hasn't happened yet.   ;D   Seriously, it tracks my three Fluke portables perfectly (considering resolution differences of course) whereas the other meters tend to deviate from them at the higher or lower ranges, which would be less likely if the 8600A was out.  (sigh) I guess I have to set my sights on an 8800A now...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: particleman on September 11, 2018, 05:41:25 pm
My Flukes. I use them every day.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on September 11, 2018, 07:04:16 pm
TWO of them.  Nice.   :-+  Is it worth scanning the Bay for an inexpensive one (there seem to be two prices: $400 and $50 ;D ) these days?  I seem to recall people mentioning that a lot of DMMs get sold as "for parts" even though they're somewhat functional and repairable - is that likely with an 8800?  I've never had to fix a Fluke meter so I don't know what I might be getting into; but if it's a reasonable thing to look for I can certainly start watching for one.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: particleman on September 11, 2018, 07:34:46 pm
TWO of them.  Nice.   :-+  Is it worth scanning the Bay for an inexpensive one (there seem to be two prices: $400 and $50 ;D ) these days?  I seem to recall people mentioning that a lot of DMMs get sold as "for parts" even though they're somewhat functional and repairable - is that likely with an 8800?  I've never had to fix a Fluke meter so I don't know what I might be getting into; but if it's a reasonable thing to look for I can certainly start watching for one.
Both of my 8800A we bought locally from the popular classified site. C21 had leaked on both of them. Recapped them both cleaned the switches had them calibrated ($40 each) and have not had 1 issue with them in the 5 years I have had them.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rsjsouza on September 11, 2018, 09:13:35 pm
TWO of them.  Nice.   :-+  Is it worth scanning the Bay for an inexpensive one (there seem to be two prices: $400 and $50 ;D ) these days?  I seem to recall people mentioning that a lot of DMMs get sold as "for parts" even though they're somewhat functional and repairable - is that likely with an 8800?  I've never had to fix a Fluke meter so I don't know what I might be getting into; but if it's a reasonable thing to look for I can certainly start watching for one.
The hardest fix I had to do was to repair my dad's old 8020A (portable) where the LCD had leaked. I followed Mr. Modemhead's procedure (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-8020a-lcd-replacement/).

The other two (8060A and 8062A) only required capacitor replacements.

My Fluke 27/FM has a fading LCD, but I expect it to be a simple cleaning job of the zebra strips. 
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: med6753 on September 12, 2018, 12:28:17 am
TWO of them.  Nice.   :-+  Is it worth scanning the Bay for an inexpensive one (there seem to be two prices: $400 and $50 ;D ) these days?  I seem to recall people mentioning that a lot of DMMs get sold as "for parts" even though they're somewhat functional and repairable - is that likely with an 8800?  I've never had to fix a Fluke meter so I don't know what I might be getting into; but if it's a reasonable thing to look for I can certainly start watching for one.

Going after the sub $100 USD Flukes on Ebay can be a total crap shoot. In my collection of Flukes it has ranged from just needing a tweak (8050A) to major repair (8010A). The others fell somewhere in between those 2 extremes. In all cases I purchased "powers up but not tested" which we all know is the bullshit statement that you can't return it if it doesn't work. So I knew what I was getting into and was prepared to perform repairs if required.

The exception was the 8800A. It was advertised as fully functional for the bargain price of $80 USD plus shipping. So I jumped on it right away. But it did not work when I received it. Power up but no measuring and wouldn't zero. I contacted the seller immediately and praised him for his packaging (was excellent) but unfortunately the DMM does not work. He responded in less than an hour and apologized and offered to refund me $60 USD plus I could keep the DMM. I was flabbergasted that he would make an offer like that and I accepted. And he made good on the refund. Within a day $60 USD was refunded. The best part is within 15 minutes of opening up the 8800A I found the problem. C18 was shorted dragging down the +35V to +25V. I recapped the entire power supply and started calibration and discovered that all parameters were dead nuts. No adjustments required. So it turned out to be an excellent score and sometimes it goes in your favor.  :-+       
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on September 12, 2018, 04:08:00 am
Yes, I've done the 8020A fix; that was a lot of fun.   >:D

Sounds like auction site purchases for this instrument come down to "do you feel lucky, punk?" and willingness to dive in and fix odd failure modes.  I guess that's why I like hamfests - if you can actually find something you have hands-on right away and an honest seller will let you power it up first.

Thanks, all, for the info.  I'll think about my next step...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bitseeker on September 12, 2018, 05:25:58 am
Next step: Buy half a dozen of them and Dr. Frankenstein a good one or three from that DMM morgue.  :-DMM
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bd139 on September 12, 2018, 06:03:27 am
Sounds like auction site purchases for this instrument come down to "do you feel lucky, punk?" and willingness to dive in and fix odd failure modes.  I guess that's why I like hamfests - if you can actually find something you have hands-on right away and an honest seller will let you power it up first.

Hamfests are just as bad usually. Most of the ones here don't bless you with power so you have to take a gamble. Last one I got very lucky though. Some of the sellers were probably more dodgy than eBay however.

Next step: Buy half a dozen of them and Dr. Frankenstein a good one or three from that DMM morgue.  :-DMM

TEA pimp in action :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bitseeker on September 12, 2018, 06:08:47 am
At your service. ^-^
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on September 12, 2018, 07:02:15 am
Sounds like auction site purchases for this instrument come down to "do you feel lucky, punk?" and willingness to dive in and fix odd failure modes.  I guess that's why I like hamfests - if you can actually find something you have hands-on right away and an honest seller will let you power it up first.

Hamfests are just as bad usually. Most of the ones here don't bless you with power so you have to take a gamble. Last one I got very lucky though. Some of the sellers were probably more dodgy than eBay however.


I agree you need to be wary, but generally around here you get the "tailgaters" (people who bring dodgy gear in the back of their truck and sell it in the parking lot) as well as the "insiders" (table space inside a building, often commercial vendors or small businesses).  The indoor spaces are usually furnished with power and the sellers are more likely to be accommodating; you just have to size them up carefully.  When I bought my 8600A, the guy pretty much insisted that I let him power up the DMM and the HP power supply before taking my money.  The Keithley 197A was bought from a known commercial dealer in the area who was selling it for a friend he called on the phone to verify the price.  I plugged it into a convenient wall outlet to make sure it at least powered up.  I'll deal with people like that all day in preference to the unknown quantity eBay sellers.  If only there was a good fest more than 2-3 times a year in this area.

And then there are shady vendors like the one a few years ago who had a nasty looking pile of used radio parts stripped from who-knows-what, trying to sell me a "matched" pair of EL34 tubes for $120.  Pull the other one, dude.   :-DD
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: elecdonia on September 12, 2018, 05:58:00 pm
I'm another person who loves old-fashioned red LED displays.  I use both the Fluke 8600A and the 8800A on a daily basis.  Currently I own 5 8600A units and 3 8800A units.  All were obtained from ebay at prices ranging from $20 to $50 each.  I also have a big box full of spare parts taken from additional units that weren't easily repairable.

Over time I've learned how to fix these meters and calibrate them.  My recommendations:
When you first get an 8600A or 8800A I recommend checking the ESR of every electrolytic capacitor in the power supply.  Or just replace them if you don't own an ESR meter.
For the battery powered version of the 8600A you should immediately replace the old NiCd D cells.  There are 4 of them.  The battery powered 8600A won't work unless the NiCd cells are good.  I recommend using NiCd batteries.  NiMH won't last very long due to the extremely primitive charging circuit in the 8600A.  NiCd cells handle continuous overcharge much better than NiMH.  Also take great care to totally clean off all bits of battery goo from the PC boards when you have a battery powered 8600A.
Do not switch on the 8600A with any of the small plug in PC boards removed -- doing so may cause failure of the IC chip that controls the relays.

For calibration I have a good quality 10V reference voltage source and a HP 3456A 6.5 digit DVM.  I've found the stability and long-term calibration of my 8600A and 8800A units to be excellent.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on September 12, 2018, 10:38:18 pm
I have a non-battery 8600A; but perhaps it's a good idea to check/replace the caps anyway.  I'm doing a voltage reference comparison right now, but when that's done I can pop it open.  Looks like the electrolytics are easily available values.  Is there any value to replacing tantalum caps too?  I know older HP gear has a problem with them.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Q2A on September 14, 2018, 05:13:06 pm
I just got a supposedly NIB 8060A off of eBay, it has not arrived yet. I found this thread fascinating when I stumbled across it a few months ago so I started occasionally looking for an 8060A since I do audio repair and design work and I like older test equipment. The seller says there is a dim character in the display; I have not had time to read the entire thread yet so I'm not sure if that is repairable. First thing will be to check for leaking e-lytic caps - probably just replace them all. So yeah, I'm a bit excited about it...!

Tim
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on September 14, 2018, 05:27:45 pm
I just got a supposedly NIB 8060A off of eBay, it has not arrived yet.
This one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/292716321279 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/292716321279)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on September 21, 2018, 03:48:08 am
Well, Flukers (is that too crude?   >:D ) it looks like I have an 8800A/AF on the way.  Guaranteed working, pictures supplied of the unit allegedly powered up and working in multiple modes.  Fingers crossed, it's supposed to arrive tomorrow.

Now, business: this, and my 8600A, are likely in ticking time bomb mode as far as electrolytic caps are concerned.  I've read almost all of this thread, and it seems maybe the aluminum poly caps are the best replacements?  How about for replacing the tantalums?  I'm putting together a BOM to get my meters updated so (without starting any arguments) what's the consensus?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: helius on September 21, 2018, 04:46:41 am
Aluminum polymer caps have lower ESR than wet caps, but in some cases leakage is more important, and they are worse with respect to leakage.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on September 21, 2018, 05:15:37 am
So, perhaps one type would be better suited to the meter's measurement circuitry and the other type to the power supply filtering?  Or is it that simple?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: vindoline on September 21, 2018, 12:07:12 pm
So, perhaps one type would be better suited to the meter's measurement circuitry and the other type to the power supply filtering?  Or is it that simple?

Congratulations on the new (old!) meter. First off, I don't have an 8600 or 8800, so I can't comment on those specific circuits. However I have about 6-8 Fluke 8060A handhelds that I've refurbished and love. In the 8060A, the failure of the aluminum electrolytic caps is so well documented that I agree with preemptively replacing them all. That said, I don't generally recommend replacing working parts just because they might fail in the future.

When replacing parts, I recommend using the same type as originally engineered in the design. i.e. use aluminum electrolytic to replace old aluminum electrolytic, etc. Try and get the same size and lead spacing to fit the pcb. I generally use 105 deg. C rated parts and increase the voltage rating if I can get it in the package siz I need. Also, I always buy name brand quality parts from Mouser or Digi-Key. Good luck!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: med6753 on September 21, 2018, 02:22:25 pm
Well, Flukers (is that too crude?   >:D ) it looks like I have an 8800A/AF on the way.  Guaranteed working, pictures supplied of the unit allegedly powered up and working in multiple modes.  Fingers crossed, it's supposed to arrive tomorrow.

Now, business: this, and my 8600A, are likely in ticking time bomb mode as far as electrolytic caps are concerned.  I've read almost all of this thread, and it seems maybe the aluminum poly caps are the best replacements?  How about for replacing the tantalums?  I'm putting together a BOM to get my meters updated so (without starting any arguments) what's the consensus?

My 8600A just had a major crap out due to tantalums. See here...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg1839170/#msg1839170 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg1839170/#msg1839170)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rsjsouza on September 21, 2018, 02:59:08 pm
Well, you were lucky they didn't go out with a bang and flames. :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: cvanc on September 21, 2018, 03:30:48 pm
The seller says there is a dim character in the display; I have not had time to read the entire thread yet so I'm not sure if that is repairable.

Quite possibly a simple fix.  Read up on cleaning the elastomeric strips (sometimes called zebra strips).  These are what connect the back of the LCD to the circuit board below.  They are a common cause of missing or faded segments.

Good luck!  (and I'm a little jealous)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on September 21, 2018, 06:18:55 pm
I'm still cross-checking the BOM before placing an order, so all input is appreciated.  I notice that Dr. Taylor chose nearly all polymer caps for his rework of the 8060s; is there a good reason why that's not an appropriate course of action for the bench DMMs as well?  I acknowledge that the big PSU filter caps might need to be Al electrolytics; but given that I am probably going to have trouble finding cheap glass-sealed Tantalums  :-DD should those still be replace with Ta or are the polys a better choice there too?

Here's a list of the caps - and original types - which I'm targeting for the 8600A, as one example:

220 µF 40V [2]
2000 µF 15V [1]
6.8 µF 35V Ta [2]
22 µF 15V Ta [1]
330 µF 3V Ta [2]
39 µF 6V Ta [1]
5.6 µF 20V Ta [1]

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on September 23, 2018, 08:32:59 pm
For those who don't check all the forums each time they visit (who would do that?   ;D ) here's the story of my latest acquisition:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-8800aaf-issues/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-8800aaf-issues/)

Spoiler: it seems to be working perfectly after applying a few things I learned in this thread.  Now burning it in to be sure there aren't any more gotchas.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Benzz on October 09, 2018, 03:56:20 pm
Some 8060a Flukes. These were in a junk box of a person who gave them away for very little money. None of them working properly. Will try to repair as many as possible, but it seems most of the displays are faulty, most of the housings are broken somewhere. Btw, I am not the owner, got them for repair.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: tautech on October 09, 2018, 07:09:04 pm
Some 8060a Flukes. These were in a junk box of a person who gave them away for very little money. None of them working properly. Will try to repair as many as possible, but it seems most of the displays are faulty, most of the housings are broken somewhere. Btw, I am not the owner, got them for repair.
Welcome to the forum.

Let's hope you can specify that part of the cost of repair is to keep one for yourself.  :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Benzz on October 09, 2018, 07:29:39 pm
Let's hope you can specify that part of the cost of repair is to keep one for yourself.  :)
That's the deal: repair as many as you can, keep one of your choice. That choice would be easy, only one of them is US made, all the others are NL made.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: tautech on October 09, 2018, 07:35:24 pm
Let's hope you can specify that part of the cost of repair is to keep one for yourself.  :)
That's the deal: repair as many as you can, keep one of your choice. That choice would be easy, only one of them is US made, all the others are NL made.
:clap:
Cool, well aren't you in the right place and thread with all the info from the original designer !
And after fixing as many as you can you'll be our new resident expert !  :-DD
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Benzz on October 09, 2018, 08:16:08 pm
Oh yes, this thread started it. As I said, it was a junk box nobody really cared about. Now I found out that recapping is not very funny.
Btw, there is another toy which fortunately works quite well. For comparison a pic with a calibrated HP MM.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: lowimpedance on October 10, 2018, 04:05:30 am
Oh yes, this thread started it. As I said, it was a junk box nobody really cared about. Now I found out that recapping is not very funny.
Btw, there is another toy which fortunately works quite well. For comparison a pic with a calibrated HP MM.
Nice little save from land fill !, while your in 're capping' mode, you should also look inside the 8050 as there are also some small electro's that maybe starting to leak. Well worth a quick check.
I have three of these meters and all three had leaky caps.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Benzz on October 10, 2018, 11:08:23 am
Yes, I think I will do that. The 8050 ist a bit slow, takes some time till the reading is stable. This is because of leaking caps, yes?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: lowimpedance on October 10, 2018, 12:04:29 pm
 
Cap issue aside, given that it has sat unused for a long time it would also be a good idea to 'exercise' the switches as jittery readings can be caused by oxides building up on the switch contacts.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Benzz on October 10, 2018, 07:30:47 pm
Ok, the switches, thanks for the hint. That robot-deo (deoxit) will help, I hope. Ah, those long winter nights are comming, time to fix old gear...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: med6753 on October 13, 2018, 11:54:53 am
Well, Flukers (is that too crude?   >:D ) it looks like I have an 8800A/AF on the way.  Guaranteed working, pictures supplied of the unit allegedly powered up and working in multiple modes.  Fingers crossed, it's supposed to arrive tomorrow.

Now, business: this, and my 8600A, are likely in ticking time bomb mode as far as electrolytic caps are concerned.  I've read almost all of this thread, and it seems maybe the aluminum poly caps are the best replacements?  How about for replacing the tantalums?  I'm putting together a BOM to get my meters updated so (without starting any arguments) what's the consensus?

My 8600A just had a major crap out due to tantalums. See here...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg1839170/#msg1839170 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg1839170/#msg1839170)

Revisiting this issue with the 8600A. It appeared at first that the drifting problem on the 20VDC range had been fixed. It wasn't. After the DMM was shut off for several hours on initial power up it was grossly inaccurate. For example: against a 9.99691V reference it would sometimes read as low 9.945V. Over the course of a half hour or so the voltage measurement would slowly increase to 9.997V and then remain stable. I finally traced this back to the DC input divider board and believe it or not it was one of the reed relays. When the relay was “cold” it had high contact resistance and as it warmed up the contact resistance decreased. And I proved it with freeze spray and a heat gun. Freeze spray would lower the measured voltage to as low as 9.7V and then apply heat and right back up to normal.

The 8600A has a total of 7 of these reed relays. 3 on the DC divider board, 1 on the Ohms board, and 3 on the AC board. I decided to change the reed relays on the DC divider and Ohms boards but for now leave the AC board alone since I don't have appropriate standards to perform a calibration.  All of the reed relays are 5 volt coil and SPST NO type and they have a finite life span which after 40-45 years has been greatly exceeded. Obviously getting exact replacements is near impossible so I had to find acceptable substitutes. One of the items that needed to be checked was coil resistance. Turns out 1 relay had a coil resistance of 125 ohms and the other 3 had a coil resistance of 600 ohms (Didn't check the relays on the AC board).

Here's the DC Divider board. The reed relay on the left is 125 ohm coil, the 2 on the right are 600 ohm coil. The defective relay (K2) is in the lower right.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/grBwx1.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmgrBwx1j)

The Ohm's board. The single reed relay is 600 ohms coil.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/VefIjO.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnVefIjOj)

Here's what I found for substitutes from Mouser. The bag on the left is a 125 ohm relay. Mouser P/N 934-HE3351A0500. The bag on the right are 500 ohm relays. Mouser P/N 934-HE3321A0400. I could not find 600 ohm relays that were reasonably priced so I decided to go with 500 ohm. The difference in drive current is about 2ma greater and I figured it would not be an issue (Proven to be true).

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/XyqSEM.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnXyqSEMj)

Here is the DC Divider board with the new relays installed. They are a smaller form factor so they are mounted sideways against the board and held in place with 3M automotive grade emblem tape. Then leads soldered to the pins.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/9GNVye.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pn9GNVyej)

The Ohms board. The relay mounted the same as the DC Divider board.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/sKH0Us.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnsKH0Usj)

The results. No more drift. Accurate results right at power up. I also did a complete recalibration of the DC volts and Ohms. If you have a vintage Fluke with these reed relays I recommend changing them out before they cause problems. My 8800A has at least 4 of these reed relays and it's on my project list to replace them. 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/DSW2Ez.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmDSW2Ezj)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on October 13, 2018, 06:13:26 pm
Interesting!  I haven't seen this sort of misbehavior on my 8600A or 8800A; they seem to be pretty accurate within a minute or less of power-up. 

How much change in adjustment was required?  And what are you using for the DCV and resistance standards?  I don't have access to anything accurate enough to re-calibrate either of my meters to that degree of precision.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: med6753 on October 13, 2018, 08:01:07 pm
Interesting!  I haven't seen this sort of misbehavior on my 8600A or 8800A; they seem to be pretty accurate within a minute or less of power-up. 

How much change in adjustment was required?  And what are you using for the DCV and resistance standards?  I don't have access to anything accurate enough to re-calibrate either of my meters to that degree of precision.

Valid questions. How much change was required? Not much actually. Just some tweaks. The 8600A was pretty much spot on before it started acting up.

I have an assortment of references that, while not traceable, do a credible job. First, I have two AD-584M references. One as primary and one as backup. They are accurate and stable enough to check up to 5.5 digit DMM's. But they only cover 2.5VDC to 10.0VDC. I have 2 home built references for 100.0mV, 1.000V, 10.00V and 190.0mV, 1.900V, and 19.00V that are really only accurate enough to do 3.5 digit DMM's but if I monitor their output with the known accurate 8800A I can adjust the 8600A pretty much dead nuts.

I have an inverter card that generates 190.0VDC but it isn't very stable but if I monitor it with a known good DMM it at least get's me in the ballpark.

For resistance I built up a decade box of 0.1% resistors from 1.0 ohm thru 10.0MEG. Not perfect but accurate enough for me.

 
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bd139 on October 13, 2018, 08:43:46 pm
I actually had one of the original relays' coils go open circuit on my 8600A. Very very annoying that was. Did the same sort of replacement.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on October 13, 2018, 10:34:51 pm
I have an assortment of references that, while not traceable, do a credible job. First, I have two AD-584M references. One as primary and one as backup. They are accurate and stable enough to check up to 5.5 digit DMM's. But they only cover 2.5VDC to 10.0VDC. I have 2 home built references for 100.0mV, 1.000V, 10.00V and 190.0mV, 1.900V, and 19.00V that are really only accurate enough to do 3.5 digit DMM's but if I monitor their output with the known accurate 8800A I can adjust the 8600A pretty much dead nuts.

I have an inverter card that generates 190.0VDC but it isn't very stable but if I monitor it with a known good DMM it at least get's me in the ballpark.

For resistance I built up a decade box of 0.1% resistors from 1.0 ohm thru 10.0MEG. Not perfect but accurate enough for me.

I have three inexpensive but calibrated voltage references (2 AD584 and 1 LM399) which I definitely trust in the range of 1-10VDC and am also preparing a resistance standard which should be good enough for the meters I currently own - that's why I was interested in comparing your methods to my approach.

I am almost finished repairing an HP6920B which I hope will be good and stable enough to at least let me sync my meters as you described.  Checking it against my Keithley and 2-Fluke bench meters it seems to be consistent if not 5-digit accurate up to well over 100V (that mechanical dial is probably the least accurate part of the unit...) and 1A. I expect I'll do a standard deviation calculation on these three meters vs. the HP and see how they line up over a wide voltage range - that should be good enough for the work I do here.  I rarely need anything better than 0.1V accuracy under any circumstances, but it's nice to have better for drift and other relative measurements.

So perhaps I should stock up on relays in my next parts order just to be prepared for the inevitable.  Have you looked at the 8800A relays yet?  The BOM indicates that the two units use the same Fluke part numbers for the relays though perhaps not the same number of them.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: med6753 on October 14, 2018, 12:27:47 am
So perhaps I should stock up on relays in my next parts order just to be prepared for the inevitable.  Have you looked at the 8800A relays yet?  The BOM indicates that the two units use the same Fluke part numbers for the relays though perhaps not the same number of them.

Here's a peak inside my 8800A. The Ohms board has 4 reed relays which are 600 ohm coils and appear to be identical to the one's used in the 8600A so I will be replacing them with the same substitution. The AC board behind it apparently has 3 under that cover of a different part number and unknown coil resistance. I will be leaving those alone for now.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/Nw1G8A.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/poNw1G8Aj)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on October 14, 2018, 02:34:13 am
The manuals I have give the same part for the 8800A AC board relays as the 8600A: Relay, reed SPST, 4.5V Fluke #357566 made originally by Coto Coil in Providence, RI. mfr #E8182

The Ohms board on both meters says Relay, reed SPST, 4.5V Fluke #357582, same mfr. #UF40070

Coto is still in business but they don't seem to have any cross-reference to their obsolete products.

Looking up the UF40070 ultimately gives this link: https://www.lintechcomponents.com/product/5945-010140618 (https://www.lintechcomponents.com/product/5945-010140618)

Can't find any data on the E8182 as yet.   :(
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: med6753 on October 14, 2018, 03:49:46 am
The manuals I have give the same part for the 8800A AC board relays as the 8600A: Relay, reed SPST, 4.5V Fluke #357566 made originally by Coto Coil in Providence, RI. mfr #E8182

The Ohms board on both meters says Relay, reed SPST, 4.5V Fluke #357582, same mfr. #UF40070

Coto is still in business but they don't seem to have any cross-reference to their obsolete products.

Looking up the UF40070 ultimately gives this link: https://www.lintechcomponents.com/product/5945-010140618 (https://www.lintechcomponents.com/product/5945-010140618)

Can't find any data on the E8182 as yet.   :(

You can bet that requesting a quote would result in taking out a mortgage to pay for them.  :scared:
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Martin.M on October 14, 2018, 09:36:11 am
Restoration Fluke 8300A

Problem1: Last Nixie off.
Problem2: Power switch always ON

Scope pics: 1 = working Transistor, 2 = fail transistor, tested at C (= Anode Nixie)
tested with Tek221, isolated ground free

Found a bad Transistor going to Anode of the non working Nixi, swapped to BF421 = OK
But the Nixi self seems to be defektive, the zero is mostly on and it fires multiple numbers, looks like a mechanical defekt inside, shorted plates.
Displaying of 0 is allready, other numbers NOT.
I have to look to buy a spare.

greetings
Martin

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: med6753 on October 14, 2018, 10:22:04 am
Restoration Fluke 8300A

Problem1: Last Nixie off.
Problem2: Power switch always ON

Scope pics: 1 = working Transistor, 2 = fail transistor, tested at C (= Anode Nixie)
tested with Tek221, isolated ground free

Found a bad Transistor going to Anode of the non working Nixi, swapped to BF421 = OK
But the Nixi self seems to be defektive, the zero is mostly on and it fires multiple numbers, looks like a mechanical defekt inside, shorted plates.
Displaying of 0 is allready, other numbers NOT.
I have to look to buy a spare.

greetings
Martin

I'll bet the shorted Nixie damaged the driver transistor. Hopefully you can find a replacement Nixie.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Martin.M on October 15, 2018, 03:10:39 pm
the Nixie is not shorted bec. they are all parallel on the bus,
this Fluke is multiplexing. If there is anything shorted, all nixies will display the problem.
The both transistors, the pnp and the npn are replaced now, and I have still the problem.
This will be not so easy
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Martin.M on October 16, 2018, 07:10:53 pm
Q36, Q40

 :)

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Martin.M on October 16, 2018, 07:56:21 pm
next:
+/- lights don`t work.

ACV DCV mV k \$\Omega\$ M \$\Omega\$ = OK
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bitseeker on October 16, 2018, 11:13:44 pm
Q36, Q40

 :)

Not bad! It's coming back to life. :-+
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on October 17, 2018, 04:55:25 am
OCD at work here - I was just browsing the 8600/8800 manuals to see what LED displays they used.  Interestingly, my copies of the manuals do not have the page numbers which contain the display board schematics!  I have a copy of the 8810A manual which does, however.  It looks to me that Fluke used a variant of the MAN72/MAN73 displays for all of these meters, based on a comparison of the 8810 schematic and BOMs for the other two meters.  Even my Dana 4200 uses essentially the same display.  I guess that shouldn't surprise me because the MAN72 was very widely used in the 70s.

My question: Has anyone ever had to replace a LED on one of these?  I suspect failure is very rare (in fact I bet switches, relays, and caps go out far more often), but since I plan to keep them running as long as possible it would be handy to have a compatible display part number in my archive.  Lacking that info I wouldn't hesitate to plug in a MAN72 compatible part and try it, but I'd like to know if anyone has actually done so.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bd139 on October 17, 2018, 08:27:05 am
There are a few different LED display types in those. Some of the models had very early Monsanto dot matrix displays. Those buggers are (a) impossible to get and (b) totally unreliable. The later LED models are fine as long as they haven't been dropped. The mounting peg system was stupid. You can spot a dropped one a mile off up front by shaking it :)

Past LEDs, the main failure modes I have seen are dicky switches, reed relays packing in, power supply pass transistors with degraded beta, knackered electrolytics, entirely duff ASICs.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Martin.M on October 17, 2018, 05:28:28 pm
8300A:  function display assy.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on October 17, 2018, 05:56:29 pm
There are a few different LED display types in those. Some of the models had very early Monsanto dot matrix displays. Those buggers are (a) impossible to get and (b) totally unreliable. The later LED models are fine as long as they haven't been dropped. The mounting peg system was stupid. You can spot a dropped one a mile off up front by shaking it :)

Past LEDs, the main failure modes I have seen are dicky switches, reed relays packing in, power supply pass transistors with degraded beta, knackered electrolytics, entirely duff ASICs.

Thankfully, mine look like standard MANxx segment displays; and when I had the meters open to replace caps, one of the things I did was check the seating of the display assemblies in their sockets.  A few of the main board ICs were a little loose initially but it didn't seem to have any effect on the meters. I remember early computers which, after multiple on/off heat cycles, would lever the ICs out of their sockets and cause flakeys.  Hasn't happened to my meters yet.

I know they're not sexy like the VFDs or OLEDs, but I'll take LEDs or TN LCDs over anything else in a device I use as a tool every day.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bd139 on October 17, 2018, 06:06:04 pm
Yes agree with the displays. The LCD 8010 was a big regression unfortunately if you ask me.  I had one a while back and did actually consider backlighting it.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Martin.M on October 19, 2018, 05:52:46 pm
the 883A Differential Voltmeter :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on October 19, 2018, 06:11:22 pm
Yes agree with the displays. The LCD 8010 was a big regression unfortunately if you ask me.  I had one a while back and did actually consider backlighting it.

I think I would too.  I've actually passed on a couple of 801x series because they're only 3.5 digit and no autoranging.  No backlight = too many minuses.

Fingers crossed this weekend that the hamfest turns up another 8600A, 8800A, or similar model.  Can't decide whether the extra digit is more important than the current measuring ability, here on the bench...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bitseeker on October 20, 2018, 05:31:08 pm
the 883A Differential Voltmeter :)

That's a nice one, Martin!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ogdento on October 21, 2018, 05:36:33 am
I've got a question about the 8060a MAC chip part numbers... I've got two meters and the older meter's MAC part number is 612713 while the newer one's is 704759.  Wondering why there's two different numbers, is there any difference in functionality between the two chips?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Martin.M on October 27, 2018, 06:42:49 pm
Restoration of the 8300A is done.
There is still a problem, DC- is always on at DC and mV DC, it may be wrong in calibration of the +- comparator, the driver stages are allready.
V + mV + Ohms, all is allready working, except this +- bulb.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: tautech on October 27, 2018, 06:45:26 pm
........ except this +- bulb.
Little forum tip for showing plus/minus:

Use + and then underline it like this:

+
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on October 27, 2018, 09:18:35 pm
Most modern keyboards should be able to type it directly as well; it's a UTF-8 / ISO-8859 / Mac / Windows "0xB1" and an HTML code "&pm;"
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on October 27, 2018, 11:54:26 pm
Unicode support is actually quite new to the forums (½ to ¾ of a year or so). Before, there was only basic ASCII support and I am very glad those times are over. :)

± ∓

FIY: The \$\Omega\$ emoji is a relic from that time that can now pleasantly be substituted by the true Ω char.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bitseeker on October 29, 2018, 01:27:57 am
FYI: The \$\Omega\$ emoji is a relic from that time that can now pleasantly be substituted by the true Ω char.

Thank goodness. I remember trying a real ohm before and, although it appeared correctly in the editor, it didn't display properly in the post. The emoji just doesn't fit in well with text, especially prefixes such as MΩ.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Martin.M on October 29, 2018, 04:09:34 am
   :box:  analog vs. digital, after 45 minutes of warmup  :box:

will John Fluke win the round?

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: frozenfrogz on October 29, 2018, 08:56:40 am
Thank goodness. I remember trying a real ohm before and, although it appeared correctly in the editor, it didn't display properly in the post. The emoji just doesn't fit in well with text, especially prefixes such as MΩ.

Yes. Sad times. You could compensate a little by using the sub tag and a bigger font, but finally having unicode support is a blessing. I remember we had to put up a small fight, because Dave was afraid switching to unicode meant having people also write in Japanese, Russian and other languages, but we could provide enough evidence to persuade. :)
After all, writing a post that looked fine in the preview just to find the posted version missing a bunch of chars just wasn’t right.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Benzz on October 29, 2018, 04:25:19 pm
Got a present today: An nice and tidy Fluke 8060a, complete with case and cables and a brief user manual. Seems to work perfect, I am very happy with it.  :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bitseeker on October 29, 2018, 09:13:48 pm
... finally having unicode support is a blessing. I remember we had to put up a small fight, because Dave was afraid switching to unicode meant having people also write in Japanese, Russian and other languages, but we could provide enough evidence to persuade. :)
After all, writing a post that looked fine in the preview just to find the posted version missing a bunch of chars just wasn’t right.

Indeed. +1 for Unicode.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bd139 on November 04, 2018, 03:58:33 pm
Bought an 8010A last week. Perhaps unsurprisingly everything on it worked nicely. Was sealed with last cal in 1986! Was rather grubby and horrible though.  Have finished the second wave of cosmetric restoration now.

Apart from the yellowing on the case, which is expected for the age it looks like new now.

(https://i.imgur.com/zac2wlX.jpg)

And I just bought a hooky display matching 8012A to go with it  :-DD

Edit: while not a massive fan of the display on these, they do the job well enough.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bd139 on November 10, 2018, 11:16:01 pm
Another refurb - 8012A: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8010a-mains-only-conversion-and-display-replacement/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8010a-mains-only-conversion-and-display-replacement/)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: WastelandTek on November 18, 2018, 06:39:07 pm
I've been away for the summer

did we lose Dr. Taylor?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: tautech on November 18, 2018, 06:49:31 pm
I've been away for the summer

did we lose Dr. Taylor?
Nope.
He looks in from time to time to check on us all......last time was just 3 days ago if you check his profile.  ;)

I'm sure he quite enjoys being called Dr. when in fact they are just his initials.  :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: WastelandTek on November 18, 2018, 06:59:49 pm
Oh good.

I'm just going to call him Dr. anyway, its a Wasteland conferred honorary degree  ;)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on November 18, 2018, 09:09:02 pm
Again, to avoid filling generic threads with specifics, my new 8600A update/repair thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-8600a-battery-powered-multimeter-convert-to-line-only/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-8600a-battery-powered-multimeter-convert-to-line-only/)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: elecdonia on November 20, 2018, 09:42:32 pm
Quote
I have a non-battery 8600A; but perhaps it's a good idea to check/replace the caps anyway.  I'm doing a voltage reference comparison right now, but when that's done I can pop it open.  Looks like the electrolytics are easily available values.  Is there any value to replacing tantalum caps too?  I know older HP gear has a problem with them.

I replaced the power supply filter caps in most of my AC mains-powered 8600A units. High ESR is usually the issue with these capacitors. I don't recall changing out any tantalum caps so far.

By far the most common issue with battery powered 8600A is needing to replace the 4000mAh NiCd cells.

Both line-powered and battery-powered units 8600A units often have bad connections at the large male pins that connect to the daughter cards.

Another fault I noticed recently is drifting zero offset when first powered up after several months of non-powered storage. I think this comes from leakage currents flowing through dirt on the PC board surfaces. Thorough PC board cleaning/drying seems to correct this issue.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: med6753 on November 21, 2018, 01:28:38 am
Quote
I have a non-battery 8600A; but perhaps it's a good idea to check/replace the caps anyway.  I'm doing a voltage reference comparison right now, but when that's done I can pop it open.  Looks like the electrolytics are easily available values.  Is there any value to replacing tantalum caps too?  I know older HP gear has a problem with them.

I replaced the power supply filter caps in most of my AC mains-powered 8600A units. High ESR is usually the issue with these capacitors. I don't recall changing out any tantalum caps so far.

By far the most common issue with battery powered 8600A is needing to replace the 4000mAh NiCd cells.

Both line-powered and battery-powered units 8600A units often have bad connections at the large male pins that connect to the daughter cards.

Another fault I noticed recently is drifting zero offset when first powered up after several months of non-powered storage. I think this comes from leakage currents flowing through dirt on the PC board surfaces. Thorough PC board cleaning/drying seems to correct this issue.

That drift could also been caused by this........

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg1974341/#msg1974341 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg1974341/#msg1974341)

Took me quite a while to track it down but it is now absolutely rock stable.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: DC1MC on December 02, 2018, 01:20:04 am
I have a Fluke 8800A waiting for reanimation (initial symptoms: faint red range LED, no reaction to buttons, former owner broke the the green paddle and put acetone to glue it back managing to melt it on the case  :palm: ).
Because I was felling in need of (relatively) instant gratification, I've open it, changed the usual basterds (see the picture, trifecta, Sprague, Phillips and and MEPCO, this one on the 5V being actually 16pF !!!) and the old girl sprang to live, the initial readings had some offset but were stable enough, except for the high voltages ranges, where it was a real noise +/- 15%, egal what voltage was applied.
After cleaning all the contacts, carefully marking the position of the trimmer potentiates and exercising them few times, everything stabilized nicely EXCEPT for the bloody zero on short, this was moving in between +70 and+ 20 on the ends of the front panel zero trimmer  :scared:, I was preparing to replace the main adjustment resistor, as the manual suggest, realized that I have none :( and staring to feel bad, but while moving the device on the table the zero offset I've seen some mechanical variation on the reading with the input shorted.

 Long story short, the bloody range relay it's a POS, I've clean it as good as I could, put it back and I've got a minimum value of +14 and stable, exercising it by putting on and off a 150V to switch the relays reduced it to 6 and that was it, no way to go lower, but at least now it's really rock stable, the 10V in the picture are staying like this for 2Hrs and I'll let it run over night, so mission (almost) accomplished  ;D.

Now I have a couple of questions for the Fluke gang:

- Any NOS or other replacement for the ranging relay available somewhere  ?

- Anybody in DE/EU has a donor unit and willing to send me the green (or any paddle) to replace the power supply Pfu­sche­rei ?

- Any ideas for the zero adjustment WITHOUT replacing the main calibration resistor if I can't get a new relay ?

 Finally after almost 2 1/2h it started to blink 10.0000/9.9999, I'm taking bets for tomorrow for the drift  :-DD.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC

Obligatory pictures attached  8).
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on December 02, 2018, 02:50:06 am
Same caps I replaced on mine and it was resurrected almost immediately.  That, plus a couple of nasty solder joints on the Ω board, were all that was keeping it from its full glory.  Well, that and dirty switch contacts.

I have cleaned the big relay on mine as well, and it seems to be stable.  I haven't seen any option for replacement, unlike the little reed relays.

The previous owner broke the power switch on mine as well, but he did a superb job of repairing it.  Perhaps we should keep an eye out for 88xx front panels on the Bay, and accumulate a small stock of spares?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: DC1MC on December 02, 2018, 03:14:32 am
Same caps I replaced on mine and it was resurrected almost immediately.  That, plus a couple of nasty solder joints on the Ω board, were all that was keeping it from its full glory.  Well, that and dirty switch contacts.

I have cleaned the big relay on mine as well, and it seems to be stable.  I haven't seen any option for replacement, unlike the little reed relays.

The previous owner broke the power switch on mine as well, but he did a superb job of repairing it.  Perhaps we should keep an eye out for 88xx front panels on the Bay, and accumulate a small stock of spares?

The ironic part is that 30yrs ago I was working with similar relays like the big one, they were crappy then as well, I can't imagine why Fluke has chosen it, maybe a cost reduction measure  :-//
Anyways it looks like gold coating on it, but it's just yellow metal (bronze-beryllium ?), it was some oxidation on the contacts that it polished off, so far I'm extremely pleased with the stability, it didn't drifted at all on 10V, tomorrow I'll put my 1,10 and 100K resistors to test the ohms board, the soldering was looking OK, but who knows.
If I could get rid of this miserable zero offset shift then can calibrate it properly.

Speaking of spare parts, chances are slim in DE/EU, the US seem to be awash in 88xx, as usually, I've seen two of them on this strange site that  I was asking before, I'll give it a try to the 8810 with the PayPal.
If you get some, we can split the parts, I also need one of the rubber feets, but at lest the handle is perfect  :-+.
I'm still amazed that is almost 40years and still works nicely, and it come really cheap (for DE).

 Cheers,
 DC1MC

 
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on December 02, 2018, 05:34:57 am
I'll probably be picking up another 1 or 2 8800A units as soon as I get the current queue shortened a bit.   ;D  If they're cheap enough I'll probably do what I've been doing with the 8600A - picking up broken units for repair or possibly just spares.  If that happens I'll surely have some pieces to split off.  I'm not too bothered by having handles on my equipment, but without feet it's a pain to get them to sit stably on the shelf...

The goal is just to have 2 each 8600A and 8800A running eventually, with enough spares to make sure they stay that way.   :-DD 
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: DC1MC on December 02, 2018, 11:47:56 am
I hammered the bloody big relay until I got some +1 count for zero, but this thing is ridiculous, such a nice and stable instrument hindered by this crappy thing, now I've seen that somehow the moving part dig a small trench in the support and with the plastic cover on, it never settles in the right position, I discarded the plastic crap, but still I have to find a long term solution to this.

Any advice is welcome, my idea is to get a modern 4,5V relay, throw away the old one and the socket and solder it on a small board or with flying wires.

Any other ideas and replacement solutions are welcome.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on December 04, 2018, 01:29:56 am
Ordered a parts/broken 8600A last week with the hope of synthesizing a working unit from the two non-working ones.  Surprise!  After temporarily inserting 5VDC in place of the dead batteries, it came to life and works a treat:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-8600a-battery-powered-multimeter-convert-to-line-only/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-8600a-battery-powered-multimeter-convert-to-line-only/)

It seems that for me, the "broken" Flukes take little effort to fix, and the "working" ones have complex problems.   :-DD
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: DC1MC on December 04, 2018, 12:03:14 pm
@GregDunn, lucky you, this never happens on my side, and I was looking for a defective unit, no luck :(.

I've got a couple of ITT relays C93406 MT2 4, hoping that I'll replace the big POS for range selection.

 Still looking for a paddle for the power switch.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on December 04, 2018, 06:39:24 pm
They do exist, but it takes some patience; right now there seems to be a shortage of 8800A units of either type, but several 8600A came up recently so I thought I'd work on that side of the collection.  Unfortunately, people love to get rid of their Option 01 battery units, which not only are invariably dead but have collateral damage on the PCB from leaky NiCd cells.  I want no more of those!  Even if the cells don't spew corrosion onto the mainboard, they vent something which oxidizes the circuit traces and connector pins.   :--  It's hard enough to troubleshoot some of these without repairing traces and connectors as well.

I've promised myself that as soon as I get as many of the 8600A running as is feasible, I'm going to stop and move on to the 8800As.  At least those are free from the battery plague, even if they're missing a current measuring mode.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Neomys Sapiens on December 04, 2018, 10:10:12 pm
Is there somewhere a published timeline and development relationship of their gear? At least up to the marriage with Philips?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: 001 on December 05, 2018, 07:51:49 am
Bought an 8010A last week. Perhaps unsurprisingly everything on it worked nicely. Was sealed with last cal in 1986! Was rather grubby and horrible though.  Have finished the second wave of cosmetric restoration now.

Apart from the yellowing on the case, which is expected for the age it looks like new now.

(https://i.imgur.com/zac2wlX.jpg)

And I just bought a hooky display matching 8012A to go with it  :-DD

Edit: while not a massive fan of the display on these, they do the job well enough.

Awesome works  :-+

Can You told me how "siemens" reading works? When do You use it?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bd139 on December 05, 2018, 08:10:07 am
Conductance is the reciprocal of resistance.

Basically you can use it to measure high resistances (up to 10Gohm), leakage and semiconductor junction characteristics (pop one on a phototransistor for example). If you build the fixture described in the manual you can also measure transistor DC beta and leakage too. Pop the value in calculator and press reciprocal to get ohms back.

It makes sense to work in conductance as the scale of the values is different to ohms.

If you have the 8012A (I do) you can cal out the probe resistance on 2 wire mode and measure resistance down to 0.001 ohms which is good for tracing out board shorts due to tantalum capacitors!

Historically I used to use one with a fixture to classify bags of crappy old germanium transistors to sell to guitar pedal builders :-DD

Not bad for an old junker of a meter!

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: 001 on December 05, 2018, 08:23:01 am
Conductance is the reciprocal of resistance.

Basically you can use it to measure high resistances (up to 10Gohm), leakage and semiconductor junction characteristics (pop one on a phototransistor for example). If you build the fixture described in the manual you can also measure transistor DC beta and leakage too. Pop the value in calculator and press reciprocal to get ohms back.

It makes sense to work in conductance as the scale of the values is different to ohms.

If you have the 8012A (I do) you can cal out the probe resistance on 2 wire mode and measure resistance down to 0.001 ohms which is good for tracing out board shorts due to tantalum capacitors!

Historically I used to use one with a fixture to classify bags of crappy old germanium transistors to sell to guitar pedal builders :-DD

Not bad for an old junker of a meter!

How do You do it? transistors and siemens  :-//
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on December 05, 2018, 10:51:40 pm
Well, this was a happy Wednesday.  Even though I made a couple of puzzling discoveries about my recently acquired 8600A (see other thread in Repair) I was pleased to see a box arrive on my porch, this time a line-powered 8600A in "broken" condition.  My goal, as mentioned, is to have at least 2 of these working on the bench, but so far the count was only at 1.5 working meters.   >:D  Would this one break my unlucky streak?

As mentioned above, the broken ones seem to be in better shape than the working ones.   :-DD  This one was immaculate inside and out except for the missing bail/stand (as listed).  I never use them anyway, so the fact that it was essentially un-scarred, especially the faceplate, was a fine tradeoff.  Nothing looked obviously zorched or broken.  I expected a power supply issue, so I put it on the variac and looked at the +5 and ±15VDC as I brought the voltage up.  They looked fine; no excessive current draw, voltages balanced.  Well, OK, at least it's not going to blow up.  So I brought the variac to 100% and - click, click - the display lit up and relays switched.  I did a quick check on Ω with short, open and 1K - all passed, with autorange doing its job.  DCV from the calibrator - up to 100V, tracking nicely.  ACV from the calibrator - ditto.  Now, to the DCA mode.  Calibrator output light flickered and meter read 0.  That usually means a bad connection (blown fuse?) so I unplugged everything and pulled the fuse holder.  The fuse was fine, but the little spring contact was no longer soldered firmly to the board; it was barely touching the fuse.  Sadly, I'm going to have to take the meter all apart to repair it due to its buried location, but I'll bet that's why the meter was listed as broken.  I'll be very surprised if it fails to work once I've repaired the connection.

Not only functioning, but in calibration, as you can see from it measuring the voltage standard of 10.0032 VDC!   :-DMM

Edit: Managed to solder the spring contact back into place and indeed the DCA and ACA modes work a treat.  Hurray for broken $20 Flukes!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on December 17, 2018, 12:19:27 am
Currently working on a "for parts" 8800A which may require a donor unit to revive:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-8800aaf-power-supply-parts/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-8800aaf-power-supply-parts/)

The PSU was fixed easily, but it's beginning to look as though the U11 controller is dead - no timing signals even though the clock signal is present at the input.  I hate to make this one a donor because it's in excellent shape inside and out, and has the late model Ohms board.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on December 17, 2018, 11:08:13 pm
And here's another reason why I buy these in pairs.  Just like the 8600A meters I picked up recently, one 8800A was DOA and the other is - fully operational.  The hope was that between the two of them I could get one meter working, and that's exactly what I got.  This one powered up (as promised) but also seems to meet its specs just fine.  DCV and ACV are as good as I can detect, including comparison with the other Flukes.  The Ω range also matches my other meters against the PRC resistance "standard" I have.  Pretty good for $35.

A question for the Flukesters out there: does anyone know what SN the 8800A started shipping with the battery-less ohms board?  My 258xxx meter has it, and so does the 286xxx unit.  This one is 276xxx and I confess I haven't popped it open yet because it still has a sealed cal sticker from 1999 and I'm not quite ready to tear it off.  The fact that Ω is still in spec after 20 years of no maintenance makes me think it's one of the newer boards, as well as the SN being later than my first unit.  I will have to open it eventually for inspection and capture another data point, but the question has been on my mind for a while.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on December 21, 2018, 04:43:55 am

That drift could also been caused by this........

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg1974341/#msg1974341 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg1974341/#msg1974341)

Took me quite a while to track it down but it is now absolutely rock stable.

OK, coming back around to this again; I suspect I have one or more defective relays just as you did, as one of my 8600A units takes a while to warm up on certain ranges.  I have done some more sleuthing on the relays, measuring coil resistance and looking at the NSN specs, and here is what I think.  The U6-P on the input divider is clearly a good match for that Littelfuse HE3351A0500 125Ω unit.  The UF40070 and UF40069 relays seem to differ only in the contact ratings; they are both 600Ω units.  The 40069 is used in the AC Converter, so will see high AC voltages - but it is only rated for DC, while the 40070 is rated for AC/DC operation.  Perhaps the shielding on the 40069 was different, to be able to operate in the presence of higher AC voltages?  Just a guess; that's the only spec which differs materially from the 40070.

So, unless someone sees a problem, I'd think the Littelfuse HE3321A0400 is a suitable replacement for both the UF40069 and UF40070 relays.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: med6753 on December 21, 2018, 03:02:29 pm
Agreed, go after the relays first. If you still have a long term drift then consider changing the crystal.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on December 21, 2018, 05:31:06 pm
Not what I'd call a long term drift; it pretty much settles to the last dp after half an hour of warmup, even from cold.  Before that, though, it's off by plenty of mV (10.0023 standard reading 9.987 initially).  The clue that it's a relay, for me, is that switching ranges away from 20V and then back (or selecting auto) causes the error to jump up again until it settles.  A crystal ought not to do that.

Now that I have what I believe to be a list of acceptable replacement relays, I suppose I'll figure out which one is the 10VDC culprit (maybe K2?) and swap it.  I only ordered one of each type until I get a chance to actually test it in-circuit and confirm it works.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: med6753 on December 21, 2018, 06:14:15 pm
You can determine real quick if it's the relays. Hang your high impedance 8800A on R52 (TP11) and watch the voltage. If it drifts....it's the relays. No drift, it's something else. Next step would be to monitor the reference voltage on CR14.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on December 22, 2018, 05:12:33 am
Brilliant - I'll try that after the family gatherings end on Sunday.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: PrecisionAnalytic on January 05, 2019, 11:26:52 pm
3) There are also issues with LCD displays. The display can be fuzzy or have bleeding.

Thanks for the insight.  I still need to read more of the posts... figured I'd go ahead and ask in the mean time.

I just received my first Fluke DMM when I went to pick up my second lab grade power supply (Heathkit IP-32).

The DMM is an 8022B with bleeding LCD.  Worked fine when turned on in the cold garage to see if it even worked.  Now, is consistently looking like this:
***see attached image since I haven't recalled the syntax to post in the message body yet***

I swapped the battery with an 8.4V Li rechargeable to see if lower the voltage had any effect... which it didn't.

Any advice, reference LCD units if that is all or anything else I should check?

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: FRR on January 06, 2019, 07:17:40 am
3) There are also issues with LCD displays. The display can be fuzzy or have bleeding.

Thanks for the insight.  I still need to read more of the posts... figured I'd go ahead and ask in the mean time.

I just received my first Fluke DMM when I went to pick up my second lab grade power supply (Heathkit IP-32).

The DMM is an 8022B with bleeding LCD.  Worked fine when turned on in the cold garage to see if it even worked.  Now, is consistently looking like this:
***see attached image since I haven't recalled the syntax to post in the message body yet***

I swapped the battery with an 8.4V Li rechargeable to see if lower the voltage had any effect... which it didn't.

Any advice, reference LCD units if that is all or anything else I should check?

That is a failed LCD panel and it will need to be replaced. You will need to either find an original old stock or go through the effort of modding the unit to use a generic panel. Some information here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/recovery-of-an-old-fluke-8020a-with-a-bad-lcd/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/recovery-of-an-old-fluke-8020a-with-a-bad-lcd/)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: lowimpedance on January 06, 2019, 09:05:14 am
Mr modemhead  (a member of the forum ) has an excellent blog on many DMM repairs.
Including a nice write up of a LCD replacement like from the above linked thread.
Check it out and follow that method .
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: 6PTsocket on January 06, 2019, 04:17:18 pm
FLUKE185/TEKTRONIX TX3

I have a Tektronix TX3, along with the lesser featured TX1, it was Tektronix's attempt to compete with the Fluke 87 and expand beyond scopes. Prior to this they only had a few imported DMMs of no particular interest. Subsequently, Fluke's parent company bought Tektronix and the blue booted TX3 got a new yellow boot and became the Fluke 185 and a sibling, the 187. These were pretty high end even by today's standards. I rarely hear mention of them. Like a previous owner stated about his favorite meter , "you would have to pry it out of my hands". If anybody has any behind the scenes stories or just owned one, I would like to hear about it.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bc888 on January 06, 2019, 06:03:50 pm

Kind of taking a left turn with you on the thread as this is about Flukes older meters, but as an FYI, I picked up a older Tektronix model 850 handheld DMM off ebay for $50 and shipping. I was looking for the 916 when it popped up. It has good specs, continuity beep is super fast, and I was happily surprised that it tested spot on with the DMMCheck. MrModemhead did a teardown of one here: http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/tektronix-dmm912-teardown/ (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/tektronix-dmm912-teardown/)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on January 07, 2019, 12:52:42 am
I have a Tektronix TX3, along with the lesser featured TX1,

 If anybody has any behind the scenes stories or just owned one, I would like to hear about it.
Mark, a member here, did a video on it several years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hI5GeYs1x8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hI5GeYs1x8)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: 6PTsocket on January 07, 2019, 03:32:15 am

Kind of taking a left turn with you on the thread as this is about Flukes older meters, but as an FYI, I picked up a older Tektronix model 850 handheld DMM off ebay for $50 and shipping. I was looking for the 916 when it popped up. It has good specs, continuity beep is super fast, and I was happily surprised that it tested spot on with the DMMCheck. MrModemhead did a teardown of one here: http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/tektronix-dmm912-teardown/ (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/tektronix-dmm912-teardown/)
I thought it was legit because it was reissued as a Fluke and it is older and I think Fluke added a few new models to that series.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Martin.M on January 07, 2019, 05:15:39 pm
John Fluke comes again in the home..

greetings
Martin




Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: DC1MC on January 07, 2019, 05:32:46 pm
John Fluke comes again in the home..

greetings
Martin

Oh, it was you  :clap:

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Martin.M on January 07, 2019, 06:08:03 pm
you have sold that?  :)

I am collecting old scopes and Multimeters.
greetings
Martin
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: DC1MC on January 07, 2019, 06:24:11 pm
you have sold that?  :)

I am collecting old scopes and Multimeters.
greetings
Martin

No, I wanted to bid on it and gixened 100EUR, was not enough  :'(.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Martin.M on January 07, 2019, 06:48:37 pm
you will catch the next what is comming there  :)
My new desire is a russia Multimeter with electro mechanical display
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on January 07, 2019, 07:11:18 pm
Again, to avoid cluttering this thread, a link to my latest repair project:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-8600a-ranging-issues/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-8600a-ranging-issues/)

Anyone who has found a suitable replacement for the Fluke F2691/2692 low-leakage JFETs, feel free to share.   :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on January 11, 2019, 07:57:40 pm
Got some FET recommendations in my repair thread.   :-+

Does anyone happen to know if there's a publicly viewable price list for vintage Fluke equipment?  I'm just curious what my 8600A and 8800A sold for back in the mid 70s when they were introduced.  My Google-fu is failing me today...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: vindoline on January 11, 2019, 08:44:20 pm
I don't know about a price list, but the ko4bb site has a nice 1987 Fluke catalog here: http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=download&file=Fluke/Fluke_Catalog_1987.pdf (http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=download&file=Fluke/Fluke_Catalog_1987.pdf)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on January 11, 2019, 09:15:13 pm
I'm just curious what my 8600A and 8800A sold for back in the mid 70s when they were introduced.  My Google-fu is failing me today...
If you have time, look through the archives of Radio Electronics Magazine.  When I was doing some research, I found ads for old Fluke meters and they had prices.

https://archive.org/details/radioelectronicsmagazine

I don't have anytime this weekend, but maybe you will find it quickly?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bob91343 on January 11, 2019, 10:52:09 pm
Do you still have those old Fluke meters?  I could be interested.

Bob
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on January 12, 2019, 02:30:26 am
The catalog is very interesting indeed!  I didn't realize that the 8600A was still for sale after the 8800A was surpassed by the 8840A.  Definitely a winner, that one, despite some internet whiners who felt they were not very accurate.

All I've seen so far in those back issues of R-E has been handheld meters, not bench units - but I'll keep looking.

If the question was intended for me - yes, I still have them, and make use of them almost every day.   :D  But there are plenty more out there, and they're not too hard to fix.  I don't think I spent more than $40 on any of the 8600A units, and only one of the 8800As cost me more than $50.

Edit: yay!  Found a catalog online and was able to screenshot the price list.  Dang!  $1099 for the 8800A - that was a month's salary for me back then.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: med6753 on January 12, 2019, 08:34:08 am
Interesting. I was curious about the original prices too. Even $299 USD for a 8000A was big bucks back then. (That's almost $1600 USD in today's dollars)

That list is too early for the 8010A and 8050A which came out quite a few years later, not until the 1980's. They would be probably roughly equivalent to the 8000A and 8600A in price although the 8050A doesn't have auto ranging.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: DC1MC on January 12, 2019, 04:55:04 pm
you will catch the next what is comming there  :)
My new desire is a russia Multimeter with electro mechanical display

Truer words never been spoken  ;D, I've snagged this Fluke 8060A from the Kleinanzeigen for 15 euro coins. As usually, "no battery", "not tested" and so on, today the Hermes kid brought it and I was expecting the worse looking on the significant grim outside, so I did a Dave an open it before starting it, cleaned the insides (not too bad) and the outside (miserable), put a Panasonic alkaline, turned on and been blown: It was FRAGGIN DEAD ACCURATE on all ranges  :scared: !!!
Well, looking on the back I've seen that was calibrated in 2010, but it was also made in 1981 !!!, how the hell they were able to make them so good  :-// ?!?!?

Anyways, now he got his place on my desk and you could enjoy some pictures, my mains frequency it's really 50Hz ;).

         Cheers,
         DC1MC
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GLouie on January 12, 2019, 06:44:16 pm
Nice find, DC1MC, although the date codes look like 1985 to me.

I would look very carefully at the bases of all the electrolytic capacitors and consider replacing them anyway. I used my 8060A since new for over 30 years before it quit, due to leaking caps. Fortunately, the damage was not too bad and I replaced all the caps as per Modemhead.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on January 12, 2019, 09:49:59 pm
Interesting. I was curious about the original prices too. Even $299 USD for a 8000A was big bucks back then. (That's almost $1600 USD in today's dollars)

That list is too early for the 8010A and 8050A which came out quite a few years later, not until the 1980's. They would be probably roughly equivalent to the 8000A and 8600A in price although the 8050A doesn't have auto ranging.

Finally dug through the R-E archive and found a later partial price list which answers your question:
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Neomys Sapiens on January 13, 2019, 02:48:20 am

Truer words never been spoken  ;D, I've snagged this Fluke 8060A from the Kleinanzeigen for 15 euro coins.
.
.
I hope that I find the leftover carry-case until when I finally get that counter ready.

Anyways, now he got his place on my desk and you could enjoy some pictures, my mains frequency it's really 50Hz ;).


Only when you are looking!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: med6753 on January 13, 2019, 05:27:39 am
Those price lists are interesting and they show what is very typical in the electronics industry...that is....as technology matures the price decreases. Examples:

8000A - 1974 price - $299 USD ($1600 USD today). The equivalent 8010A - 1980 price - $239 USD ($768 USD today).

But the biggest surprise was comparing the 8600A to the roughly equivalent 8050A. (Similar specs but 8050A doesn't have auto range)

8600A - 1974 price - $599 USD ($3200 USD today). 8050A - 1980 price - $329 USD ($1000 USD today).
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on January 13, 2019, 06:23:40 am
Yes, the improvement of chip technology led to economies of scale and reduced prices for quite a while.  I haven't actually tried to swap the chips, but when Fluke introduced autoranging, they started putting the same part number C2506 DVM chip in their DMMs - if you can trust the Fluke part number, it's in both the 4.5 digit 8600A and the 5.5 digit 8800A.  The schematic tends to confirm this.  The way they operate the display, it makes sense that the same chip could be used for both - the actual accuracy was determined by the ADC anyway, so technically I guess they could have made the 8600A a 5.5 digit meter with 4.5 digit accuracy by adding another LED/driver.   >:D

The 8000A has a totally different set of internals - it uses a voltage-to-frequency converter instead of a dual-slope ADC and has a pair of custom ICs to implement that while the range switching stuff is mostly discrete.  So it's kind of the complement of the 8600A where the ADC is mostly discrete.  Must have been cheaper to do that, plus it's only 3.5 digits.

Since I was stuck at home in the snow today, I did an impromptu check of my bench DMMs against my 3 voltage references and my MC-7 resistor "standard".  Considering that none of the Flukes have been adjusted in a long time, they held up pretty well; there was very little to choose between the 8800A and 8600A units on overall DCV accuracy.  I wish I had actual measurements of my MC-7 though, instead of just the accuracy spec - it's really unknown which meters are closer to the accurate value and which are a victim of the resistors being slightly different from the marked value (the eternal metrology dilemma).  Assuming the resistors are spot on, all of the DMMs beat 0.03% and all were very linear over the full range of resistance.  In fact, my $10 8600A converted from battery to line operation "seemed" to be more accurate than the 8800A units, within the limits of resolution.  I wouldn't hesitate to use any of them for bench testing.

40 year old meters.  Great stuff.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: DC1MC on January 13, 2019, 08:51:34 am

Truer words never been spoken  ;D, I've snagged this Fluke 8060A from the Kleinanzeigen for 15 euro coins.
.
.
I hope that I find the leftover carry-case until when I finally get that counter ready.

Anyways, now he got his place on my desk and you could enjoy some pictures, my mains frequency it's really 50Hz ;).


Only when you are looking!

Was it you ?  cool  8), I want that carry case (and the f-meter of course) !!!

And yes, it's a Schrödinger-ian  frequency  >:D

(https://media0.faz.net/ppmedia/aktuell/wissen/606865461/1.2535618/width610x580/tot-und-lebendig-schroedingers.jpg)


 Cheers,
 DC1MC
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Martin.M on January 13, 2019, 09:07:19 am
that 8500A is also wake up.
In the Option Card Calibration Memory was both batteries empty. = Errors.
bec. it is a option I have removed the card an the 8500A starts working.
batteries required, ebay

its not a true 6 1/2 digits, or there is a trick to use that full, or its required the cal memory card for using 6 1/2

Martin
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Neomys Sapiens on January 13, 2019, 08:55:14 pm

Was it you ?  cool  8), I want that carry case (and the f-meter of course) !!!

And yes, it's a Schrödinger-ian  frequency  >:D

No, wasn't me. But I once had a 8060, whose sad demise I described somewhere here.
And the softcase is still around (I think it must be right along with the ugly discarded yellow holster for the 87, which I replaced with the grey one).
And the counter is not available, but still uncalibrated. I have a new OCXO (10811), now I have to find the UNC screws, because I'm not willing to order a whole pack.
That said, the holster is a giveaway when I call about the calibration.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Neomys Sapiens on January 13, 2019, 09:11:35 pm
BTW, I don't think the 8060 was made in'81. My 'datecode' is '66 and I was 16 when I bought mine.
It was newly out, with a large feature about it in the 'Elektronik',  then the German lead periodical on professional electronics.
I remember the Fluke advertising, which did show a guy in a labcoat riding a scooter with a lot of T&M gear strapped on (which the 8060 was supposed to replace). They prominently reused it in the 'Elektronik' (with Fluke Co.'s permission, I think)  for a title page discussing (for the first time) the topic of engineering temp jobs and -agencies.
I also remember vividly how my grumpy boss of those years (an Ingenieurbuero, where I worked during my holidays and after school) told me to buy a large analogue meter with FETs (Unigor 6e), because on that digital things you can't observe changing values. The measurement rate of the 8060 made him look twice and muttering a 'maybe, could work'.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: DC1MC on January 13, 2019, 10:04:23 pm
I was just looking on the PCB date, it may be a bit younger, but still unvelivable precise.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rsjsouza on January 13, 2019, 11:14:50 pm
Neomys, I suspect you mean 8600 - the 8060 is newer than the 8020, which was designed by the original poster of this thread.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Neomys Sapiens on January 13, 2019, 11:17:55 pm
Neomys, I suspect you mean 8600 - the 8060 is newer than the 8020, which was designed by the original poster of this thread.
Nope. I said that '81 is too early for an 8060. Maybe you misunderstood that 'my datecode' - I'm born 66, so it must have been '83 when it appeared.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on January 14, 2019, 12:29:56 am
I wish I could find the post, but a member actually emailed Fluke asking about the manufacture date on his 8060 and was told June 1980.  Others have reported 1980-1981 chip dates on their units, which is not conclusive.  But the easiest way would be to ask drtaylor the designer - if he doesn't know, no one does.  ;)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rsjsouza on January 14, 2019, 02:12:49 am
Neomys, I suspect you mean 8600 - the 8060 is newer than the 8020, which was designed by the original poster of this thread.
Nope. I said that '81 is too early for an 8060. Maybe you misunderstood that 'my datecode' - I'm born 66, so it must have been '83 when it appeared.
Duh, got it. You were one of the lucky private persons that actually bought an 8060A at that time. (only a dream for me).  :-+
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GLouie on January 14, 2019, 06:40:45 am
Of course drtaylor will know. He posted several documents and some early flyers that are dated 1982.

I got my 8060A in July 1982 and my manual says March 1982, so I think at least in USA they were available by then. I suspect the 1981 date on early circuit boards is the original board design copyright date, which they might've used for several years.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on January 14, 2019, 07:11:29 am
8060 Prototype was in 81. First customer units in 1982.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on January 18, 2019, 03:58:49 am
Again, a link to my 8800A/AF repair thread, finally concluded with success:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-8800aaf-power-supply-parts/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-8800aaf-power-supply-parts/)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: 4thDoctorWhoFan on January 19, 2019, 10:46:20 pm
Here is my Fluke 8400A.
It still works great & I do use it on occasion.

BTW, does anyone know if there are banana plug adapters that will change the plug from the shielded type to the non shielded type? 
I would like to use normal multimeter probes with the Fluke 8400A but it only accepts normal unshielded banana plug.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4896/46080708624_1e3d974b08_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dcZFfh)P1010031 (2) (https://flic.kr/p/2dcZFfh)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bitseeker on January 20, 2019, 01:09:43 am
Beautiful 8400A, Doc!

Search engines are your friend: "shrouded to unshrouded banana plug adapter converter"
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: IconicPCB on January 20, 2019, 03:57:08 am
clean uncluttered lines
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: 4thDoctorWhoFan on January 20, 2019, 02:11:02 pm
Beautiful 8400A, Doc!

Search engines are your friend: "shrouded to unshrouded banana plug adapter converter"

Thanks!
BTW, I did search but I found nothing & now I realize why.  DUH,  I searched for the terms shielded instead of shrouded. :)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bitseeker on January 21, 2019, 12:34:28 am
No worries. Glad to help out.

By the way, which options does your 8400 have?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Neomys Sapiens on January 21, 2019, 09:27:39 pm
Here is my Fluke 8400A.
It still works great & I do use it on occasion.

BTW, does anyone know if there are banana plug adapters that will change the plug from the shielded type to the non shielded type? 
I would like to use normal multimeter probes with the Fluke 8400A but it only accepts normal unshielded banana plug.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4896/46080708624_1e3d974b08_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dcZFfh)P1010031 (2) (https://flic.kr/p/2dcZFfh)
There are two basic types of such adaptors:
One is simply a shrouded jack inline with a unshouded plug. Most of the time they cling to the shrouded plug which is connected to them, instead of the unshrouded jack, which would be better in terms of safety. (available from SKS, Staeubli, Pomona, Fluke) A variant has the unshrouded plug fitted with a spring-loaded shroud, which is better. (Available from SKS, red only)
The other type is fitted with a spreader mechanism, which is actuated by a small set screw in the shrouded jack and it is therefore affixed reliably to the unshrouded jack on the instrument. (available from SKS and Staeubli, multiple colours)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: 4thDoctorWhoFan on January 21, 2019, 09:48:33 pm
No worries. Glad to help out.

By the way, which options does your 8400 have?

It only has options 1 & 2 which are the AC & OHMS converter.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: 4thDoctorWhoFan on January 21, 2019, 09:49:21 pm
Here is my Fluke 8400A.
It still works great & I do use it on occasion.

BTW, does anyone know if there are banana plug adapters that will change the plug from the shielded type to the non shielded type? 
I would like to use normal multimeter probes with the Fluke 8400A but it only accepts normal unshielded banana plug.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4896/46080708624_1e3d974b08_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dcZFfh)P1010031 (2) (https://flic.kr/p/2dcZFfh)
There are two basic types of such adaptors:
One is simply a shrouded jack inline with a unshouded plug. Most of the time they cling to the shrouded plug which is connected to them, instead of the unshrouded jack, which would be better in terms of safety. (available from SKS, Staeubli, Pomona, Fluke) A variant has the unshrouded plug fitted with a spring-loaded shroud, which is better. (Available from SKS, red only)
The other type is fitted with a spreader mechanism, which is actuated by a small set screw in the shrouded jack and it is therefore affixed reliably to the unshrouded jack on the instrument. (available from SKS and Staeubli, multiple colours)

Thanks for the great explanation.  I will look into them.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Dave Wise on February 13, 2019, 05:58:18 pm
I was given an 8100B, a smaller 4-1/2 digit model in this product family.  It seems to work but reads about 7 counts high (i.e., positive offset) regardless of mode, range, or measurand amplitude or polarity.  I'll calibrate it when time and mood coincide.  In the mean time, do you think this is a straightforward zero adjust, or one of the other less obvious trims like A/D Offset or Remainder?

And it's funny - it has Option 001 (battery) but there's no evidence there was ever a battery pack installed.  What's the story behind this, do you think?

Dave Wise (ignore typo in userid)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: joeqsmith on February 14, 2019, 12:35:06 pm
Interesting. I was curious about the original prices too. Even $299 USD for a 8000A was big bucks back then. (That's almost $1600 USD in today's dollars)

That list is too early for the 8010A and 8050A which came out quite a few years later, not until the 1980's. They would be probably roughly equivalent to the 8000A and 8600A in price although the 8050A doesn't have auto ranging.

I recently posted a video comparing my first digital VOM, an 8000A, with a free meter from Harbor Freight.  I show a 1974 magazine with the cost.  Indeed, $299 back then.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObKomuLLqU8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObKomuLLqU8)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Dave Wise on February 14, 2019, 10:25:47 pm
Quote
Dave, report your or my post to a moderator and ask nicely for them to correct your user ID....it can be fixed.
Thanks, Tautech, I did.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bitseeker on February 15, 2019, 01:51:33 am
Looks much better, Dave, and welcome.
Title: Old Fluke Multimeters Series 70 Rotary Switch needed
Post by: scopeman on March 14, 2019, 01:29:25 am
Hello,

I have a Original Fluke 77 that has a mangled rotary switch (the electrical wafer rotary switch on the PCB not the knob in the case).

Does anyone know where I can find one of these or does anyone have a scrap PCB that I can recover the switch deck from?

Thanks for reading!

Sam
W3OHM
Owner/Moderator of the LeCroyOwnersGroup on groups.io
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bd139 on March 14, 2019, 01:36:13 pm
That's what spelled the end for my 77. I sold it on ebay then as I couldn't find parts. It might be worth buying a physically damaged one and using the insides of that with yours. There are plenty out there with cracked casing etc which have good switches still.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: TubeDoc on March 22, 2019, 04:00:00 pm
I am relativly new to this blog, but have enjoyed the information traded here, esp the histroy of the early Fluke multimeters. 

I, too am a bit of a meter junky.  I have a good example of all but a couple of the 8020 series of meters up through the 8060s, with a few odd meters good for parts, etc.  I have a few 8800As or 8810As that light up and measure but that have problems with ranging, etc. I also have some miscl buttons, knobs, etc. for 8000s and 8600s.  I would happily swap the bech meters for something else.  I'm not sure of the ettiquite or mechanics for swaping parts here.

Thanks again for the great information and enthusiasm.   

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Neomys Sapiens on March 22, 2019, 10:54:43 pm
I am relativly new to this blog, but have enjoyed the information traded here, esp the histroy of the early Fluke multimeters. 

I, too am a bit of a meter junky.  I have a good example of all but a couple of the 8020 series of meters up through the 8060s, with a few odd meters good for parts, etc.  I have a few 8800As or 8810As that light up and measure but that have problems with ranging, etc. I also have some miscl buttons, knobs, etc. for 8000s and 8600s.  I would happily swap the bech meters for something else.  I'm not sure of the ettiquite or mechanics for swaping parts here.

Thanks again for the great information and enthusiasm.
There will be a dedicated thread for T&M 'parts mules' shortly. Keep looking for that and list yours then.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: imaradiostar on April 28, 2019, 01:05:38 am
I've really enjoyed reading this thread. I have two 8060's - one that's early and has been recapped, and one that's a much later unit and doesn't appear to need recapping...YET.

I purchased the recapped unit on eBay and found that the MAC socket was damaged but not replaced. I replaced it and cleaned the board (IPA and ultrasonic cleaner) while I had it apart. I also dunked and cleaned the MAC chip with alcohol as I found some green junk on the pins. After thorough cleaning it passes ADC self test with a correct count.

I have an HP 3456a and an Analogic AN3100 DC standard, and an assortment of other multimeters, including a few 8050s. I can tweak any of them to match across each range, but the recapped 8060a still drifts a bit and overnight it no longer matches the other meters, off by a count of 40 or so while the others still match. I've also found that if I tweak it to read 0.1900vdc or 1.9000vdc correctly, it doesn't scale to lower voltages correctly while the others all easily meet spec.

Is it fair to assume there is still junk on the board or MAC somewhere causing the incorrect scaling? What should I look for?

I have an additional IBM unit that doesn't work and if I'm going to order parts to rebuild it I might as well order more spares!

Thanks!

jamie
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on April 28, 2019, 02:03:04 am
Is it fair to assume there is still junk on the board or MAC somewhere causing the incorrect scaling? What should I look for?
Did you check the bottom bung of the electrolytic caps?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: imaradiostar on April 28, 2019, 02:31:18 am
Truthfully, I read on eBay that is was recapped, saw recent soldering and flux, and didn't check all of them. I don't wish to throw the seller under the bus but it wasn't to my usual level of craftsmanship. At this point I'm tempted to simply redo it. There's no point in having a high count meter that isn't as accurate as my Chinese amazon cheapies!

I guess it makes sense to order three sets of caps and various other bits and hunker down for some rebuilds. I have a nice Pace sodr-x-tractor and the work will go fast.

JT
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: retiredcaps on April 28, 2019, 04:25:44 am
Is it fair to assume there is still junk on the board or MAC somewhere causing the incorrect scaling?
It might take several applications of IPA and cleaning? See

http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-8060a-repair/ (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-8060a-repair/)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: imaradiostar on April 28, 2019, 05:05:42 am
You're probably right. It's been a while since I read that blog post. Even though the meter was supposedly refurbished, it's silly not to dig in a clean it again, and possibly swap the MAC with a meter that functions correctly to see if the problem follows.

Knowing myself and the likelyhood that any older 8060a would have bad caps and related problems, I sortof regret buying one that's "refurbished" for decent money when I already have the charge pump and machine pin sockets on hand, and the caps are cheap. I have no doubt that I can put it right, only I have little time right now to do it.

I have three 8050a's, an 8060a, and a modern Owon B41t+ apart on my bench, and I just purchased a used Fluke 187 for use at work without knowing if it functions correctly. I have the IBM 8060a and an additional 8050a apart at work. Too many projects! I enjoy the distraction, though. Somehow messing with multimeters scratches some sort of OCD itch and I find it satisfying.

oh yeah, I have an HP 3478a apart, too. Needs a power transformer. Neat meter, though. Oh, and an 8920a that reads off by about 20%. Found some caps with high ESR, but no smoking gun yet.

Yeah, it's a sickness. I think there is a thread for that.

Jamie
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on May 18, 2019, 11:56:21 am
The "addiction" continues...  I found a nice clean 8600A at the Dayton hamfest yesterday for $20.  Using my 10V standard, MC-7 precision resistor set and HP 6920B it measures very close on all functions and ranges.  I always take these apart to make sure there's nothing questionable going on inside, and this time I see that a previous owner replaced some components (U4-5 seem to have been the target) because there is a lot of flux residue. 

U4 is supposed to be a LH0042C so I could check to see whether the sub is appropriate, but U5 is listed only as Fluke PN 385450 which is generally referenced to an AD40323.  Both are of course selected for (I assume) leakage or offset; but right now U4 is an AD40291 and U5 is an AD40420 and I can't find any data for any of them so far.

I suppose I shouldn't worry about it - the meter is rock stable after about 5 minutes of warmup and seems to be well within spec.  But I'd really rather have some more info because if one of these goes bad on another meter... well.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bob91343 on May 18, 2019, 05:43:21 pm
Do you want to foist that 3478A on someone who might try to repair it?  That would be a fun project for me.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: imaradiostar on May 18, 2019, 05:47:00 pm
Sorry, it's a company asset, can't sell it!

JT
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: elecdonia on May 26, 2019, 06:18:35 pm
I may be able to provide some info about op-amp substitutes that work well and perhaps even improve the accuracy and stability. I own an entire shelf of 8600A and 8800A. Many different vintages. I was able to get most of them to exceed specs. It’s somewhat unusual for these op-amps to fail.

I also converted a very rough 8800A into a programmable DC preamp with extremely high input impedance and the capability to handle +/- 20V inputs. I use it as a front end for logging devices based on Raspberry Pi and/or Arduino hardware.

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: med6753 on May 26, 2019, 06:55:49 pm
I may be able to provide some info about op-amp substitutes that work well and perhaps even improve the accuracy and stability. I own an entire shelf of 8600A and 8800A. Many different vintages. I was able to get most of them to exceed specs. It’s somewhat unusual for these op-amps to fail.

I also converted a very rough 8800A into a programmable DC preamp with extremely high input impedance and the capability to handle +/- 20V inputs. I use it as a front end for logging devices based on Raspberry Pi and/or Arduino hardware.

OK, I'm game. I own both an 8600A and an 8810A. What op-amps do you recommend changing and with what type? 
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: GregDunn on May 26, 2019, 07:12:30 pm
I'd be interested too.

I suspect this meter met with an "accident" because there were a few components in the input section which had telltale flux residue (and lots of it) on their pins.  I doubt any of my 8600s will have a similar failure, but it's good to know as much as possible about the hardware requirements just on G.P.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Pablitox on July 05, 2019, 02:05:06 am
Eh acquired a fluke 8060a Ibm.  I read the Mrmodemhead Guide and looking for the C28 capacitor my board does not have it.  It has the through holes but there are no signs that that component has been removed there.  Why?
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on July 05, 2019, 02:55:48 am
That's a weird one and looks to me like there was a cap there 

Maybe the board had track issues and cap soldered somewhere else?  :-//

or maybe it was a leaker and someone plain forgot to get around to getting the part,
and because the meter 'apparently' worked fine without it, why bother..  ::)

Check to see if any other mods done before considering to replace it,
and wait for some better/reassuring info here  :phew:
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: imaradiostar on July 05, 2019, 03:24:13 am
Yeah, I agree. I just checked my (yet unrestored) 8060a/aa and it for sure has a 10uF cap there. Your picture looks to have some sort of schmoo on the board where that cap should be, so maybe one leaked. Mine is a lowish SN starting with a 3 and many of the caps were leaking and the board was damaged. I would assume it needs that cap, though I can't seem to find it on the schematic!

Jamie
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: drtaylor on July 05, 2019, 05:17:46 am
C23 is a filter cap for the digital supply to the SM4. I advise it is put back in. C24 is a filter for the LCD duplex divider reference. The original missing cap obviously spewed electrolyte and the area should be thoroughly cleaned. Also it looks like enough corrosion on the traces occurred that will require careful work to ensure the cap is connected.

It is often true that the effect of some filter caps is not apparent, but in order to maintain a digital supply that did not cause noise in the TRMS section, C23 is needed. The digital supply can add noise to low level AC readings due to fluctuating currents while processing.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Pablitox on July 05, 2019, 05:43:29 am
The image I used was of mrmodemhead.  This is the plate of my multimeter.  It is somewhat blurred.  Sorry for my lousy English
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: vinlove on July 05, 2019, 05:48:08 am
I have an old Fluke 25, and it still works fine.  Will never rid of it.
When PSU amp measuring, it beat modern Chinese DMMs in accuracy.

It is simple and heavy, but keeps going.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bd139 on July 05, 2019, 07:16:16 am
Plus if you’re burgled it doubles as a melee weapon  :-DD
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: tautech on July 05, 2019, 07:45:16 am
The image I used was of mrmodemhead.  This is the plate of my multimeter.  It is somewhat blurred.  Sorry for my lousy English
Your English is far better than that worthless blurry photo !
Upload a better one please.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on July 05, 2019, 09:41:23 am

The blurred image when flipped 180, and compared with previous image, sort of tells the story

'Perhaps' that board revision gave that cap a miss for whatever reason,

or the next stage didn't need it, 

or... =  :-//

or need Mr. Taylor in on this one again  :clap:


@Pablitox: does the meter work ok as is, and sort of agrees with another meter you have ?

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rsjsouza on July 05, 2019, 03:04:45 pm
To me the difference between a concave and a convex solder blob may indicate the meter had a component soldered there at a certain point in time.

At any rate, the recommendation from the designer holds more water than any attempt to reconstruct the history of the device and find any potential reasons.  :-+
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Pablitox on July 05, 2019, 06:24:28 pm
Apparently it is the version of the pcb
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8060a-calibration-service/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8060a-calibration-service/)

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Pablitox on July 05, 2019, 06:26:14 pm
I do not have another better camera :(
Change the electrolytic and clean with alcohol and air
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on July 05, 2019, 10:26:14 pm

So apparently there should be no cap there ? perhaps cap compensation is elsewhere on the PCB as per Revision?

I would leave as is if the meter is working ok, and has been for years and years

I've come across gear before with blank or solder filled holes   (...Dude, where's my cap?!   :-// )

and just assumed they are there to solder in a component if necessary due to circuit/parts tolerances out of wack or ripple etc at assembly time

On the other hand, if it was a slimy penny pinching exercise to save .5 cents at manufacturing  :palm: and THAT circuit may/would benefit with no possible harm or CAL hit,
hey, give it a go  :-+


 

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Pablitox on July 06, 2019, 05:56:47 pm

So apparently there should be no cap there ? perhaps cap compensation is elsewhere on the PCB as per Revision?

I would leave as is if the meter is working ok, and has been for years and years

I've come across gear before with blank or solder filled holes   (...Dude, where's my cap?!   :-// )

and just assumed they are there to solder in a component if necessary due to circuit/parts tolerances out of wack or ripple etc at assembly time

On the other hand, if it was a slimy penny pinching exercise to save .5 cents at manufacturing  :palm: and THAT circuit may/would benefit with no possible harm or CAL hit,
hey, give it a go  :-+


 
If something works well, do not touch.

And this Fluke 8060a works excellent. No calibration was necessary. I used it used
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rsjsouza on July 07, 2019, 12:47:56 am
Well, I'll eat my hat. Both my 8060A and 8062A do not have this capacitor fitted.  :-//

8060A S/N: 4245166
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=778938)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=778944)

8062A S/N: 4210192
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=778950)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=778956)

The bad flux residue is due to my inexperience in properly cleaning boards at the time I recapped this meter.

The 8062A still has the original capacitors. None leaked, but it will go under surgery soon.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on July 07, 2019, 11:06:10 am

I'll have to crack open mine too asap

and hope I too am not a victim of the Fluke Cap Burglar  :scared: 


 :D
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Alex P on July 09, 2019, 06:21:43 pm
Had a look at a few 806x meters:
8060A, s/n 4395401,      pcb rev F: has the capacitor (IC date codes from 1982)
8060A, s/n (none seen), pcb rev H: does not have the capacitor (IC date codes from 1987)
8062A, s/n 5035011,      pcb rev J: does not have the capacitor (IC date code from 1989)
Where the C is absent, the soldering islands look like straight from the factory, no sign of removal or additional soldering.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rsjsouza on July 09, 2019, 07:31:06 pm
I found in my hard disk some older downloads where I got the schematics and component placements and it seems the capacitor in question is C28: 10µF/16V in parallel with the zener voltage reference VRZ.

Why this was removed is a mystery, but perhaps it was suitable for stability?

Rev 1
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=4]
Rev 3
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]

Unfortunately the full scans are too large to be attached, so I did a search on the manuals and found that Mr ModemHead was kind enough to scan his copies and make them available at:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8060a-calibration-service/msg1462267/#msg1462267 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8060a-calibration-service/msg1462267/#msg1462267)
(obviously he also mentions the C28 mystery)
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on July 10, 2019, 12:20:07 am

...C28 is a 10uF across the 1.2V bandgap reference.  To be honest, I hadn't noticed that it disappeared at some point in the lifespan of the design.  I have hardcopy documentation from 1983 and 1988. 
C28 exists in the 1983 rev, but is not mentioned in the 1988 and the much-later PDFs available on-line from the Fluke archives.


If it is not in your meter then there should be no need to include it..


Let sleeping dawgs be for now,
well until more intel flows in..   ;D

Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: IconicPCB on July 10, 2019, 02:58:17 am
Looking at the schematic the current for the zener is sourced via Z3 a 50K resistor.
It is possible electrolytic's leakage current may have been detrimental to the stability of the reference voltage.

I see no reason why a low leakage film capacitor could not be used there.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rsjsouza on July 10, 2019, 10:39:36 am
The issue there is space. If you want to keep the same 10uF that will take you to MLCC territory. How is leakage on these types of capacitors?

You could also derate its voltage for even less leakage (use 25V instead of 16V).

Edit: found some info at Murata, which places their MLCCs typically at 500MΩ-μF - this yields 50MΩ for a 10µF capacitor.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: coromonadalix on July 10, 2019, 10:46:09 am
 fluke 8060a, the 40 pins main  ic could be an intersil 7106- 7107 series ??
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: bd139 on July 10, 2019, 10:52:22 am
It's a different IC. Similar design, at least from the 8000 flukes. I think the story is that Fluke developed the original IC with Intersil as a foundry and Intersil nicked part of it and sold the ICL7xxx series and Fluke weren't happy.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: tautech on July 10, 2019, 10:57:21 am
It's a different IC. Similar design, at least from the 8000 flukes. I think the story is that Fluke developed the original IC with Intersil as a foundry and Intersil nicked part of it and sold the ICL7xxx series and Fluke weren't happy.
Yep, info all about this in posts #1 and 17 of this thread.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: rsjsouza on July 10, 2019, 11:44:31 am
fluke 8060a, the 40 pins main  ic could be an intersil 7106- 7107 series ??
Not at all. The 8060A has 20000 counts while the 7106/07 has only 2000 counts.

What tautech and bd139 mentioned is applicable for the 802x series.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: IconicPCB on July 10, 2019, 11:58:34 pm
I think the original cap was an aluminium elctolytic and hence the comment on leakage current.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Electro Detective on July 12, 2019, 10:50:47 pm
I didn't know EEVblog host DJ did a cool test/quickie teardown of an RS badged 8060A during "EEVblog #802 - Mailbag" Youtube, 'published on Sep 28, 2015'

Not sure if that YT link has been posted here already  :-// well, here it is again for those that missed it

youtube.com/watch?v=F_REyGWNAmc

or hit on the Mailbag page here on the forum that has the embedded? video >  www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-802-mailbag/?all (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-802-mailbag/?all)


The entire Mailbag is a good watch (as they tend to be  :clap:) the 8060A feature kicks off about 3 minutes in, and runs for about 6 mins,

and yes 'That's A Knife' also does a cameo appearance  :scared:
 

Please note: at about the 6.35 minute mark, clear evidence that pesky Fluke Cap Burglar rolled over that meter whilst in transit to DJ  :D


:palm:
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ThickPhilM on July 21, 2019, 03:55:23 pm
Recently scored an 8840A for the equivalent of around US$110, with the AC-09 option. Sadly no GPIB option, but meh...

(https://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/28/02/75/20190711.jpg)

The Micronta you see was my pride and joy, bought it new in '87 or '88, cost £70 which was half a weeks wage at the time, and added the shrouded sockets in '95 or so... safety first! 8-)

The Black Star is a recent add also, and has some issues... if there's anyone out there with good knowledge of the error codes on these, please pm me...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on July 29, 2019, 01:29:13 pm
The Micronta you see was my pride and joy, bought it new in '87 or '88, cost £70 which was half a weeks wage at the time, and added the shrouded sockets in '95 or so... safety first! 8-)

I lusted after that thing back in the day!
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: smmi on August 01, 2019, 06:35:05 am
hey Dave Taylor (if you're reading or see this)... you told me I needed to recap my 8060A, as I do plan to pass it onto my son...  ;)

I must lead a charmed life... 8060A (original owner) purchased new, in 1984 - used exclusively in my studio for cal, db and repairs... god bless audio-head meter engineers like yourself...

Meter specifics:
30-84 date code on the MAC @ U3...
serial number 3890330...
pcb revision H on the silkscreen... H-1 brown-tagged on the board...
also, C28, 10uF - is NOT populated on this board (per the later component list and schematic)...

Knowing that I needed to re-cap it, just because -  I popped open the meter tonight (after ordering the parts) to see how many caps have let loose (assuming time did the inevitable) - and I'll be darned... not a single cap has leaked... still looks like a virgin... how weird...

In 35 years, this meter has never even looked at me funny... impressive... heck of a job...

btw, if you want to measure a set of intact 35 year old caps to see how much they've wandered (as these haven't imploded)... send me a pm and I'll send 'em to you...

you the man, Dave... Thanks...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ogdento on August 07, 2019, 09:26:35 pm
Hey Smmi that is great luck... they're much easier to re-cap when they haven't already made an awful mess!

I just opened up this guy and was excited to find my first ceramic MAC... aaand it's got capacitor puke on a few pins.  I hope I don't wreck it pulling it out.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: smmi on August 11, 2019, 04:47:07 pm
hey ogdento...  sometimes we get lucky... sometimes we don't...

that's a big cleanup job on that meter... thank goodness for modemhead's blog and dave taylor's comments up here - for me anyway... and geez what happened to the alt-power battery eliminator jack's input cover? - is that from the spewed electrolyte?... that big blob of green on the MAC certainly seemed telltale...

after I recap this 8060A, I'm going to tear into my 87 (a knock-around spare I've had for years) and clean the display's zebra strips so it gets dark-dark again - I hope that's all it is... 99-isopropyl is our friend... good luck...
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: ogdento on August 11, 2019, 07:17:16 pm
Very true Smmi!

Turns out that blob of blue/green on the chip is actually paint - Modemhead's got a ceramic chip in one of his 8060 repair entries with a similar blob.  And I think the power input jack is actually OK, the plastic is a little rough but I think flash did it a grievous injustice ;)

I really like the 87s too... I forget that they're 30 years old!  Great meters, easy to work on, and I love that the service manual is so inclusive.
Title: Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
Post by: Dave Wise on September 01, 2019, 04:01:32 pm
As I said in post #650 of February 13, 2019, I have an 8100B that read slightly high.  I was able to bring it spot-on with a slight tweak to R175 ZERO.  I'm still curious about the other ADC adjustments (R308 TRIP POINT, R149 REMAINDER), but it's pretty useful as is.

I don't see a separate thread for differential voltmeters, so I'll say here that I just got a tube-type 825A/AG back on its feet.
This model is a premium version of the 801B with a 1mV null detector vs 10mV.  The /AG means the reference is a Zener instead of a standard cell.

Unusual cap failures: a leaky electrolytic that depressed a regulator, another leaky electro coupling cap causing null detector offset, and an electro that was pretending to be a battery.  I rarely see a leaky low-voltage electrolytic that causes a malfunction, usually they just dry out.

Unusual cap, that failed: Why did Fluke use a paper/oil bumblebee?  In a sensitive spot in the regulator?  While the rest of the film caps are mylar?

Also a rectifier with photodiode action causing more-than-full-scale offset on the recorder output.

When I accidentally applied high voltage on a low range, one of the polystyrene input filter caps gave its life to protect the neon that was supposed to protect it.  But after one hour in total darkness, the neon fired at 92V so it just must have been the cap's time to go.  Not having a 0.1uF polystyrene, I used polypropylene.

The plastic number wheels were warped causing them to rub one another making the action rough.  This probably afflicts the 801B and other models that use them.  I fabricated good-looking replacements using the original metal hub, a cut-down CD blank, legend overlay designed in LibreOffice Draw, and self-stick plastic laminating sheet.  They look great, and the knobs slip from one detent to the next with that smooth ringing clank like they're supposed to.  I'll post the recipe if anyone wants.

The switch contacts were dirty, but they quieted after a shot of polyphenyl ether.

I was beginning to compare it to my gold standard 895A when the latter failed.  Not my favorite scenario.
But it turned out to be simple, just an open electrolytic in the 1100V Reference Supply, parts are on order.  Four Nichicon UCA-6 (short and wide) 22/450.

It's been a good week.

Dave Wise