paging Mr Modemhead !And Retiredcaps.
You need to see this.
Let me know, my wife would be glad to be rid of them.
paging Mr Modemhead !
You need to see this.
It probably isn't widely known anymore, but the A/D in the Fluke 8020 was developed in a joint venture with Intersil. Then Intersil decided to market it to the world by making a tiny change to get around exclusivity...lawsuits ensued.
Later I was the chief designer of the very successful 8060 series...
Let me know, my wife would be glad to be rid of them.
I am totally with you on that. :-+Later I was the chief designer of the very successful 8060 series...
The 8060A is the greatest handheld DMM of all time.
Paul
Message to Dave: I worked at Fluke in the late 70s and early 80s as a design engineer. I started as a junior engineer on the original handheld DMM, the 8020. Later I was the chief designer of the very successful 8060 series, which by the way, was the first microcontroller based handheld DMM.To Dave and Chris,
...I am an audiophile and used to play in bands, so I wanted a meter with dB and at least 100kHz bandwidth. I added a lot of features to the original spec which required a microcontroller.
It was definitely my most successful and satisfying design throughout my career.What other projects have you worked on?
I was the hardware designer and project manager and provided all the text for the User Guide.I'm just learning more about how multimeters work over the last 12 months, but last year I managed to get a poorly worded ebay auction that landed me a non working IBM 8060A with two copies of the instruction manual. I have read the manual over and over and each time I learn a bit more. Thank you for writing a clear easy to understand manual. The troubleshooting chart, BOM, schematics and theory of operation are invaluable. You certainly won't find this level of detail anymore today in any handheld meter.
So the score was Rep 1 (new yacht), hard working engineer who conceived, executed, and delivered the 8060, 0 (and an attaboy). That's when I realized the engineers place in the world.Without going into details, I have been in the same situation where one year we were the number #1 sales team worldwide. The Sales Rep got fifteen times (15x) in commi$$ion compen$ation compared to what I (technical) made in salary. I didn't even get an attaboy. After that, many technical engineers made the jump to Sales which left with huge holes in the technical department.
A little more on the Intersil 7106.How do you feel about all the $5 or less generic 830 style case multimeters using the 7106/equivalent. In terms of accuracy, 0.5% on DCV, they seem to hold up well.
in conclusion, working at Fluke was a great experience and I learned a lot from some really talented engineers. I don't know if I'd be happy there now since they were acquired by Danaher, but it was a great place to work back then.I feel the same about my former company.
I left Fluke after the 8060, although I was working on the 77 A/D converter and TRMS converter. But the 77 came out after I left for Wavetek.There were some huge changes from the 8xxx to the 7x series. Namely, 2000 hour battery life :-+, autoranging with rotary knob switch and rubber holster. However, none of the original 70 series has fast continuity.
Another feature of the 8060 I was proud of was that it was the first DMM to have truly fast continuity.
Dr. Taylor:Yes, I was a team member on that one. I designed some of the options and ran most of the design testing. It was discrete opamps driving a Fluke developed thermal sensor that was a great TRMS converter capable of large crest factor readings. The Senior Engineer that designed that discrete op amp taught me so much. It was really an impressive piece of engineering. It strikes me as kind of funny now because you can buy off the shelf op amps much faster, but at the time, the only way to get the bandwidth was with discrete circuits. We did funny things like sticking two leads in the same hole to reduce lead inductance. It had an interesting anti-log circuit on the DC side of the sensor to try to improve the settling time. I have a prototype 8922 in my garage. Haven't fired it up for years. One thing that is interesting is the dB conversion was handled by a custom chip, not a microcontroller. That was actually the last non-microcontroled instrument I worked on as I went on the 8060 after the 8920 series came out.
Were you involved with the 892x series thermal rms meters?
I have many Fluke DMMs that are gathering dust, and I wonder if you'd like them for your DMM collection?
Somewhere I have the original hand drawn schematic of the 8060
I have a list somewhere of 8060 tricks, but one I remember off the top of my head, because I spent a lot of time designing that switch array to do it... If you pop out the two bottom switches, the input is connected directly to the A/D and the 10M divider network is disconnected. Therefore, like far more expensive DMMs, you get near infinite input impedance. Works only on the 200mVdc and 2Vdc ranges of course.I have stickers on the back of my main 8060 with the "secret" settings :)
It worked just fine but I went ahead and replaced the electrolytics since so many are dying from leakage these days.Good call. All the electrolytic caps that were bad on my 8060A leaked from the bottom. It is not obvious when looking at them until you physically remove them.
Another feature of the 8060 I was proud of was that it was the first DMM to have truly fast continuity. A separate hi speed comparator was added to the A/D silicon expressly for this purpose. It doesn't depend on a conversion. I rate almost all DMMs by hitting the probes together as fast as I can. A fast continuity will beep. I'm surprised how many DMMs designers still don't get how important this is in troubleshooting.Indeed. I always wonder why so many DMMs have such a slow continuity beeper. I mean, how hard can it be to get this right? The dirt cheap Hung Chang analog meter I got when I was 10 years old (and that is longer ago than I'd like to admit) had an instant continuity beeper, as does my 25 year old (also low end) Metex DMM. I admit those meters didn't have a latched continuity beeper, but I'd rather have an instant scratchy beep, than a latched beep that is 0.5 second late. A slow continuity beep is as far as I'm concerned close to useless. A 0.1 second delay I'm willing to tolerate, but if it is many times more than that they might as well leave the beeper out.
I assume the frequency counters you are reffering to are the ones in the plastic 2patt lunchbox design, unlike the 195x series ones. Referencing the earlier hf thermal converters, they are a really interesting bit of kit.It's funny you call that the lunchbox design, I know what you mean. The case series had a name which eludes me now, but I know is started with "Portable". Yes, I had the fortune of being on the team that designed the first product in that case, the 8920 True RMS Meter. That's when we discovered the thermal problems. The two Freq Counters I have are in the same package as you surmised, which was the medium size. They were designed to clip together to make a little stack. Three sizes were possible. I also have a systems DMM in the tallest package. I designed a remote display into the short package, which was never produced. I don't think Fluke ended up with any products in the short version. Then there was my ill fated power supply design. That it was dropped was probably a blessing as getting the power high enough would have definitely caused a heat problem. I'll take a picture of that power supply and post it. It's definitely one of a kind.
DrTaylorlowiimpedance - I didn't think the 7106 would work. The 429100 chip has a line that electronically switches the range from 200mV to 2VFS. You can set up a 7106 for either one or the other, but not both. I suppose with a huge kludge circuit, you could add circuitry to change the analog components to do the switch, but it would be fraught with gotchas.
My old grey matter was wrong with actually trying the 7106 in the 8012a , must have just contemplated the idea long ago after deciding it was the same as the FLUKE chip !!. And to prove it I dug out an old 8010a and swapped the A/D with a 7106 and no it did not work ::). Now its got me thinking if It could be made to work. (not that I need to bother!).
I was going to ask about the 8050a , but I see it predated the 8060a, any similarity or lessons from the 8050 to the 8060 or completely different?.
As has been said by others these stories of yours give interesting hints to what happened behind the scenes. There is a ready audience for these types of reminisces.
Thanks for taking the time to share.
Release article published in Electronics Magazine.I started reading your article, but quickly realized that I will need several passes to comprehend it. Right now, my level of understanding it is like "see spot run". :-DD
8060 Documentation:
Copy of original schematic. This did not survive to production as I had to modify the 7660 circuit due to noise. But it is mostly intact to what ended up as the final schematic, which can be found in 8060 Manuals. It's funny now that I laboriously hand drew all those schematic symbols, some with a template. I got a lot of flak about only using a single squiggle for resistors, but I thought the meaning was just as clear.
Release article published in Electronics Magazine. This had some editing errors. The very last paragraph talks about Teflon Resistors which don't exist. Should read NPO Ceramic Caps and Teflon Trimmer caps. I think there are other minor errors. The editor took the text I wrote and "improved" it for publication without additional proof reading.
Cal Procedures for the 8060 and 8062 used by production. Written by yours truly.
My original concept sketches for the 8060. The earlier one proposed a dual slide switch on the side, but was deemed too radical a change from the 8020 series. The second was the one I did most of the design on and only at the last instance was the functionality changed. You can see a quite complex LCD in this, but the SM-4 couldn't drive that many segments at duplex.
I hope this proves interesting for aficionados of old Fluke meters. My design process has always been design the front panel and define the feature set first, then see if you can come up with electronics that support it. That process I still follow today.
DrTaylor,
thank you for sharing, just love hand drawn schematics..
I've just picked out old FLUKE schematics of the 332B and the 845AR, and they also as if they were drawn by hand.
Was FLUKEs philosophy of that time, perhaps?
Frank
I noticed in the 8060A manual that the aluminum caps have mfg supply code 89536 which is John Fluke Manufacturing. Did Fluke make its own brand of caps or just buy them in bulk and put their own part number on them?I originally spec'd in those parts from Panasonic, if I recall correctly. They were low leakage for aluminums which was a fairly new thing back then. Too bad they weren't low spewage. But they were standard off the shelf parts when I first designed them in. Fluke purchasing no doubt made a huge buy and had them custom marked. From who I don't know, but I'd guess it was Panasonic. My units all have the original off the shelf caps on them.
@drtaylor, If it is not a trade secret anymore, can you share the budget for your bill of materials?I might have had that information long ago, but no longer. But the precision divider from Caddock cost more than $6 all by itself. The gang switches weren't cheap and might have been the single most expensive part, and the LCD was over $4. I'm not sure if they even knew accurately what the MAC cost. If they amortized Fluke Labs into the cost, they cost thousands each (LOL), at least at first. The TRMS converter was around $3.
Someone told me recently that they were still selling new 8060s as recently as 1998. Does anyone have confirmation of that? If true the production run of 8060s went from 1982 to 1998, over 16 years. I wonder if any other DMM had such a long reign.Radio Shack catalog from 2001 shows the 8060A for sale at $499 MSRP. 8062A had a $419 MSRP. See
Hello Mr. David Ryan Taylor - I have a mail from Fluke the Netherlands confirming that they ceased production of the 8060A in 2001 and ceased production of spare parts in 2005.gazelle, Thanks so much for the report. I definitely enjoyed that news. Your comment and the comment from retiredcaps confirms the 8060A was in production until 2001. So the 8060A lasted almost 20 years in production! Gotta be a record.
Hopefully you will enjoy this news :-)
IMHO one of the finest DMMs ever made ... (I have many units in my Fluke vintage lab)
I noticed that the later model unit has a different display with larger numerals. Nice.....Can you post a picture of the two lcd displays side by side? I would like to see if the font changed and how much bigger the numbers are.
You can turn any 8062 into an 8060 if you know what to do (and I do). But unless you can find a case with the other two holes and figure out how to get the other two elastomeric switches, it won't be pretty.drtaylor
Someone told me recently that they were still selling new 8060s as recently as 1998. Does anyone have confirmation of that? If true the production run of 8060s went from 1982 to 1998, over 16 years. I wonder if any other DMM had such a long reign.Radio Shack catalog from 2001 shows the 8060A for sale at $499 MSRP. 8062A had a $419 MSRP. See
http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/html/2001-b/h244.html (http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/html/2001-b/h244.html)
Fluke 27 is still advertised in same 2001 catalog, but I haven't done any research on when the 27 was first made yet.
http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/html/2001-b/h246.html (http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/html/2001-b/h246.html)
27 had a $349 MSRP.
Both models don't show up in the 2002 catalog, but still could have been sold as Radio Shack may have decided to concentrate on their own brand name multimeters?
I might ave a couple of these for parts. I'll check. I might have sold them at a meet, don't remember but I'll check later today as they would be out in the other shop if I have them. Put your general location in your profile so we know about where you are located.
I'll bet he's in the UK.I'll bet you're right :-DD
I might ave a couple of these for parts. I'll check. I might have sold them at a meet, don't remember but I'll check later today as they would be out in the other shop if I have them. Put your general location in your profile so we know about where you are located.
He has a Thurlby DMM and he wrote "colour" -> I'll bet he's in the UK.
Dr TaylorI have been too busy to test my IBM 8060, so I have not put it up for sale yet. I have a full time day job, I do contract design at night, and play rock n roll on the weekend. So I apologize. I'm almost done with my current G-job and will work in checking and if necessary, repairing the Blue 8060. So sorry for the delay.
Any luck on your IBM 8060a?
I had a call from Norm Strong around 1987 who wanted to ask me about design aspects of the components around the TRMS converter. I remember kind of laughing with him because he actually designed the Silicon. I said "com'on Norm, you're the one who helped me optimize it for wide bandwidth. How am I supposed to remember?"
I do love the color of the IBM model. I particularly like the 'customized' IBM label on the standard unit, one of a kind i suspect ;D
I do love the color of the IBM model. I particularly like the 'customized' IBM label on the standard unit, one of a kind i suspect ;D
I've never actually seen a blue fluke from that generation. I'm curious if there were others
I've never actually seen a blue fluke from that generation. I'm curious if there were othersI have one an IBM blue one thanks to a poorly worded ebay auction title. I don't have any voltage sources at home, but a comparison with a Fluke 87V and 187 shows it spot on or +/- 1mV. :-+
I also asked someone if they want to try and modify a 8062 into a 8060.Interesting, I have an 8062 and this unit uses a quite different PCB for the keypad than the 8060 which would make it rather hard to convert without some major hacking. (although IIRC the top case half had the moulding cut outs of the 8060!).
My last Fluke DMM, the 8860A 5-1/2 digit programmable DMM.
Ah, I'd almost forgotten about GPIB controllers. Fluke went big time into designing a touch screen GPIB controller. I have a lot of negative comments about that decision and how it was managed, but all GPIB controllers were ultimately doomed by the advent of the PC.
Leakage current of a capacitor increases with long storage times. The aluminium oxide film deteriorates as a function of temperature and time. If used without reconditioning, an abnormally high current will be required to restore the oxide film. This current surge could cause the circuit or the capacitor to fail. Capacitor should be reconditioned by applying rated voltage in series with a 1000 ohm, current limiting resistor for a time period of 30 minutes.
I have a rare Blue IBM 8060A/AA for sale with Blue User Guide. I just haven't figured out the best place to sell it at. Any suggestions?There is a Buy/Sell forum here at
I've never actually seen a blue fluke from that generation. I'm curious if there were othersI have one an IBM blue one thanks to a poorly worded ebay auction title. I don't have any voltage sources at home, but a comparison with a Fluke 87V and 187 shows it spot on or +/- 1mV. :-+
I also asked someone if they want to try and modify a 8062 into a 8060.
PS. Compiling my list of questions (plural). Unfortunately, we can't call in like a radio show, but so it is just a 3 way conversation.
I've never actually seen a blue fluke from that generation. I'm curious if there were othersI have one an IBM blue one thanks to a poorly worded ebay auction title. I don't have any voltage sources at home, but a comparison with a Fluke 87V and 187 shows it spot on or +/- 1mV. :-+
I also asked someone if they want to try and modify a 8062 into a 8060.
PS. Compiling my list of questions (plural). Unfortunately, we can't call in like a radio show, but so it is just a 3 way conversation.
actually, I meant if they were produced in different colours.
I would definitely use a neon pink 8060 just to annoy people and to have an extremely unique meter.
Mr. Taylor do you have any info on a service manual for the 8060a.The manual posted on Fluke's website gives troubleshooting charts, schematics, bill of materials, etc. :-+
My question about these old DMM is how long will they keep on working accurately and be useful. I mean they are all more than 20 years old, so will they not need recapping if they use any capacitors in the circuit inside these DMM?
Or are they OK in this respect, and will last much longer without having to get serviced?
87V 3.5 digits 87V 4.5 digits 8060A
600mV 0.1mV ±(0.1% + 1) 200mV 0.01mV ±(0.1% + 10) 200mV 0.01mV ±(0.04% + 2)
6.000V 0.001V ±(0.05% + 1) 2V 0.1mV ±(0.05% + 10) 2V 0.1mV ±(0.04% + 2)
60.00V 0.01V ±(0.05% + 1) 20V 0.001V ±(0.05% + 10) 20V 0.001V ±(0.05% + 2)
600.0V 0.1V ±(0.05% + 1) 200V 0.01V ±(0.05% + 10) 200V 0.01V ±(0.05% + 2)
1000V 1V ±(0.05% + 1) 1000V 0.1V ±(0.05% + 10) 1000V 0.1V ±(0.05% + 2)
Thank you Marvin. Great info.
I think the 27/FM is kinda rare, hard to find, I imagine it would be more expensive too.
Fluke 25 seems easier to find for sale, and going for good price.
Is the 25 good DMM to use?
I think the 27/FM is kinda rare, hard to find, I imagine it would be more expensive too.
How is the Fluke 25? Is it a good DMM for using in general hobby projects and repair of amps and tuners - vintage hifi stuff?The 25 is a good meter in general. Check out Dave's 27 review. The difference between the 27 and 25 is the relative and min-max buttons which the 25 lacks. The 25 otherwise is the same meter and inside the case IS the same meter. Same guts but two buttons are removed for marketing reasons.
Ended up getting a FLUKE 25. WOW what a great metre, very smooth and nice. Huge and substantially built.
I think this will do for all my needs.
Sure, if the price is right why not. Another cool thing with this FLUKE 25 was the price. It was £9
Bargain of the year.
Ended up getting a FLUKE 25. WOW what a great metre, very smooth and nice. Huge and substantially built.Did you go for the one on ebay?
I think this will do for all my needs.
Sure, if the price is right why not. Another cool thing with this FLUKE 25 was the price. It was £9
Bargain of the year.
Seriously, they are, in my opinion, the best value in hand held multimeters, provided you are in the US or other area where they are inexpensive, and don't need capacitance, frequency, datalogging, etc. (These are a bit more expensive in some countries, and not having a needed feature is false economy.)
I use these as 'knock around" meters for working on the car, washing machine, etc. I have one at work that I use when I'm crawling on top of a machine and don't want to see if an 87 can stand a 2 meter drop onto hard concrete. I did drop my 25 onto a bulldozer track from about 1 meter - no problem. The operator thought I'd just broken my meter.
Ended up getting a FLUKE 25. WOW what a great metre, very smooth and nice. Huge and substantially built.Did you go for the one on ebay?
I think this will do for all my needs.
Ended up getting a FLUKE 25. WOW what a great metre, very smooth and nice. Huge and substantially built.Did you go for the one on ebay?
I think this will do for all my needs.
Yes. With shipping, I think it came to 17 total. Glad I got it.
A reader of my blog sent me some photos of an 8060A that he cleverly converted from LCD to 7-segment LED display. I secured his permission to post the photos, so have a look if you're interested (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/a-very-unique-fluke-8060a/).Love it. Always great to see 'display mods' people do for their favorite oldies.
Message to Dave: I worked at Fluke in the late 70s and early 80s as a design engineer. I started as a junior engineer on the original handheld DMM, the 8020.
...I'm curious, what do you guys mean by NOS?New Old Stock
...I'm curious, what do you guys mean by NOS?New Old Stock
Sam,
I doubt that your problem is the divider. I would suspect the pushbutton switch assembly with the symptoms as you describe. Sometimes the little spring contacts in the switch get mangled.
With the 8060 off, check each switch to make sure the poles are connecting and disconnecting. The ground side of the divider has to go through several poles on several switches. Any pole not working would prevent the divider from dividing.
It's fairly easy to test if the divider is working. Just place 2V on the meter inputs and then monitor the voltage at the 100k resistor at the input to the MAC chip. Also, if you pop out both the Volts and ohms keys, then you can use another DMM to measure the resistors in the divider (8060 off).
Also a small possibility is that the silver zebra that connects the main board to the SM4 Micro just needs to be cleaned and/or repositioned. If this were the case, it would still divide in the analog world, but the micro may not know what range and function it is in.
Does it work in ohms mode? That would be a clue.
The divider was a custom part from Caddock to my specifications. I don't believe it was used ever again in newer meters. So unless Fluke has repair stock, that might be difficult to obtain except from a donor 8060. Hopefully your divider is fine.
I don't have an 8060 schematic where I'm writing this. If you want more specific instructions on trouble shooting this unit, let me know. Good luck.
If you have the User Guide, it tells you how to perform a digital switch check that will test the Micro's ability to figure out the range and function.
Saturation- Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate it. You can listen to the Amphour interview anytime at http://www.theamphour.com/180-an-interview-with-dave-taylor-multi-talented-meter-maker/. (http://www.theamphour.com/180-an-interview-with-dave-taylor-multi-talented-meter-maker/.)
I purchased an 8024B - not newsworthy, except that on the back is stamped:
FLUKE (HOLLAND) B.V.
TILBURG, THE NETHERLANDS
MADE IN HOLLAND
This is the first Fluke that I've seen that isn't made in China or the USA.
Hi YashEE,
The resistor originally was a carbon composition that has really good protection properties, but otherwise a poor performer. Metal oxide resistors might not be as safe in this application. Carbon Comp (not to be confused with carbon film) resistors are still manufactured by Ohmite and probably a few others.
The 430V Axial leaded varistors are no longer available. I suggest getting 10mm disc types and squeezing them in. Any voltage rating from 380 to 430 should work as long as you replace all of them so that they match.
Tried to pull out the LCD but it was rather not wanting to give away, but after that the LCD worked properly again!If those caps are the originals, change them now because they will leak. The caps look like they were made 1985 month 5?
Tried to pull out the LCD but it was rather not wanting to give away, but after that the LCD worked properly again!If those caps are the originals, change them now because they will leak. The caps look like they were made 1985 month 5?
My 8062 is older than what is covered by the web-manual also.I have a hard copy IBM manual that is dated Feb 1982. If you need a scan, I can do it over the weekend.
I have a limited number of original 8060A Manuals (~10) that I will part with for the cost of postage, packaging materials, and gas. These have full schematics and troubleshooting guides. I'd be happy to sign them if you want me to. Please send requests privately.
*nudge* Just wanted to see if Dave Taylor has msg'd anyone else since Oct 3rd, I haven't heard anything from him in PM nor here… hope all is OK!
Here's how I cleaned several of mine.
Any suggestions of what to check are appreciated.Obviously, drtaylor and others are the experts here, but I have some suggestions to at least get the discussion started?
Now to PM drtaylor about one of those manuals. Hopefully he's OK.
Any suggestions of what to check are appreciated.Obviously, drtaylor and others are the experts here, but I have some suggestions to at least get the discussion started?
1) When I repaired my 8060A, ACV was way off. It turned out that the capacitor right next to the pot had leaked and while I cleaned up the pcb with IPA and replaced the capacitor, the electrolyte had wicked its way up to the ACV pot. A couple of turns left and right fixed that problem. Maybe give your DCV pots a couple of turns left and right?
2) I don't have a lot of equipment with the push button/switch arrangement, but from what I have read, if they are 20+ years old, they can potentially affect readings and require cleaning.
3) Does the last digit fluctation happen if you use the 20V range? You lose a digit of resolution, but I'm curious if it happens on the 20V range.
4) Have you checked the soldering on the input jacks? Have you tried cleaning them with a q-tip and IPA?
3) The last digit does fluctuate on the 20V. When I turn on the meter at the 20V selection connected to the D Cell (pretty confident the battery is 1.5620V based on my other meters) the 8060A/AA meter jumps to “-OL” then 1.574 after the display test and then immediately to 1.540, 1.548, 1.553 then it will count approximately 1 count per second 1.554, 1.555., etc until it reaches 1.560. I noticed my second 8060 starts out the same way it just reaches the final value quicker.
4) The input jacks look good and I cleaned them with both WD-40 and then the Electronic cleaner.
Since it does eventually read the correct value after 5 – 10 seconds, could this be normal?
3) The last digit does fluctuate on the 20V. When I turn on the meter at the 20V selection connected to the D Cell (pretty confident the battery is 1.5620V based on my other meters) the 8060A/AA meter jumps to “-OL” then 1.574 after the display test and then immediately to 1.540, 1.548, 1.553 then it will count approximately 1 count per second 1.554, 1.555., etc until it reaches 1.560. I noticed my second 8060 starts out the same way it just reaches the final value quicker.
4) The input jacks look good and I cleaned them with both WD-40 and then the Electronic cleaner.
Since it does eventually read the correct value after 5 – 10 seconds, could this be normal?
This has all the hallmarks of a contaminated PCB, assuming you have taken care of any leaking caps and made sure the power supplies are OK. I do not like the sound of WD40 (or Radio Shack electronics cleaner, either) anywhere near the inside of this meter, it is very susceptible to developing leakage currents due to PCB contamination. Dunk the whole thing in 91% or better IPA, scrub what you can get to with a brush, then allow to dry overnight. A fan is a good thing. I'd remove the MAC first, and make sure the socket is clean. Scrub the MAC with IPA too.
For cleaning you are saying I can remove the MAC and soak the entire main board in IPA?I used to be squeamish about that but now I've done it so many times I don't worry about it anymore. It doesn't seem to bother a thing, and often cures a number of ills. The plastic cover on the muRata piezo will hold liquid, so blowing that out, along with the switches, with a duster can or compressed air is a good idea. I always leave the board in front of a muffin fan for at least an hour or more for drying, overnight is better.
Since it does eventually read the correct value after 5 – 10 seconds, could this be normal?Meters that take 5 to 10 seconds to settle on the correct range don't have a place in my household. :--
lowimpedance / krivx,
I replaced the electrolytic capacitors but I did not see signs of leaking. I checked U4 (pin3 to pin 5) and it was stable at -5.126 volts.
Interesting that you mention a dodgy socket as a possibility. When I first received the meter the readings were off. When I tried to calibrate VDC using R5 I could not get it to be repeatable. I would set it then cycle power and the voltage reading would be all over the place again. I took a shot and replaced the MAC from a donor 8060 and that seemed to correct the problem. I set VDC using R5 to match my other Fluke and it has matched the second Fluke ever since. What is interesting is that I have disassembled multiple Flukes and I always pull the chip, which up until this meter required a fair amount of effort. The MAC on this meter can be easily pulled from the socket.
ModemHead / krivx,
A typically I do not admit to shopping at Radio Shack, however our local store was one of the ones closing and well I bought more than I should have. I did not realize soaking the board in IPA was an option. I will certainly do that as I noticed the Radio Shack electronic cleaner seems to leave a residue. The WD40 is only for two areas; the on/off switch which is one of the reasons I pull the MAC and to remove corrosion on the inside of the input jacks. I try not to get any WD-40 on the main board.
For cleaning you are saying I can remove the MAC and soak the entire main board in IPA?
Thanks to everyone for their inputs. Ken
Anyway, here's my small collection of Fluke meters. Some a little out of cal on DC V apparently.
What a great thread! But kind of worrying - it started in Oct 2013, runs to 13 pages, and drtaylor's last post was in Oct 2014......Not to worry, he's keeping an eye on us, last activity 31 May.
Just for future reference, I'll ad that the 70 series LCDs have a polarizing film over the glass that often fails. It fails evenly, and the digits fade to brown then light brown. Another forum member (sorry, I forget who) determined that the old polarizing film could be scraped off and new polarizing film could be added. He rotated the polarizer on his, and made a reverse digit meter.I've tried that before on a 70-series LCD. I think the post you refer to was what gave me the idea. A razor-blade scraper will get the old polarizer off, and citrus solvent takes care of the adhesive residue. Cut a new piece of polarizer film, (correctly oriented) and the display will be good as new.
KJDS, If you determine that the main converter IC is to blame for the 8010 units not working, I do have a few 429100 chips for replacement. They've been sitting in antistatic foam for 30 years, so who knows? I'd advise replacing the electrolytics, or at least a careful inspection to look for spew (highly technical term). For top performance a good washing in IPA can fix all kinds of problems. However, try to keep the alcohol out of the ganged switch assembly.
KJDS, If you determine that the main converter IC is to blame for the 8010 units not working, I do have a few 429100 chips for replacement. They've been sitting in antistatic foam for 30 years, so who knows? I'd advise replacing the electrolytics, or at least a careful inspection to look for spew (highly technical term). For top performance a good washing in IPA can fix all kinds of problems. However, try to keep the alcohol out of the ganged switch assembly.
I'm cheating and giving away the non-working ones to those that buy a working unit.
Greetings to All! I learned of this place from Mr. Modemhead's web site, which seems inactive now.As modemhead explains here
would it make sense to go ahead and replace all the caps Mr. Modemhead specified with tantalum devices of the same, or slightly higher voltage, rather than use current aluminum electrolytics (even though the new ones are superior to the original caps)?Just use high quality Nichicon, Rubyon, United Chemicon or Panasonic aluminum electrolytic capacitors for replacements. Replace all the old ones regardless if they test or look okay. All the old ones will eventually leak.
Welcome DarthBubba, I've repaired 4 8060A meters at this point. I replaced every aluminum electrolytic with modern 105 C rated parts of the same physical dimentions. I think I used Panasonic parts. It's amazing the amount of damage these spewing caps cause! Is your meter in working order, or does it need repair?
would it make sense to go ahead and replace all the caps Mr. Modemhead specified with tantalum devices of the same, or slightly higher voltage, rather than use current aluminum electrolytics (even though the new ones are superior to the original caps)?
Just use high quality Nichicon, Rubyon, United Chemicon or Panasonic aluminum electrolytic capacitors for replacements. Replace all the old ones regardless if they test or look okay. All the old ones will eventually leak.
I don't have enough design experience to say for sure whether tantulum caps are appropriate in the 8060A. Personally, if I had another one to repair, I would just get top-brand aluminum electrolytics like in my original BOM, except this time I'd go for 105° temp rated ones, as others mentioned.
If your intermittent issues return, carefully disassemble the LCD/microprocessor board assembly, and clean the elastomeric connectors with IPA.
Regarding the PTC. The original part was made by a company no longer in existence.In my research over the last couple of years, the only PTC that is rated at 1000V and 1.1k ohm is the YS4020.
BTW, the overload protection in the ohms range is rated to 300V, not 1000V. This is due to the breakdown rating of the PTC. So a cheap alternative that will not compromise performance is the Epcos B59885C0120A070. This is a PTC rated at 500V. These are in stock at DigiKey.
I have an 8050a like the bottom one. I've replaced the batteries a long time ago and just recently pulled them and wired a 7805 in place so its just line powered.I really like that 8050A, good units. But I LOVE the red LEDS on the 8600A. Can see it from across the room.
Is there a specification on the battery option toroidal transformer?I haven't seen that, but there is a thread here thats shows how to delete the battery option.
I would like to implement it.
If the transformer based powersupply were to be replaced by a battery pack what would be the appropriate voltages coming from the battery pack.
If the transformer based powersupply were to be replaced by a battery pack what would be the appropriate voltages coming from the battery pack.
5V, but why not just buy a small transformer?
The meter operates on a few rails... so what would they be?+/-15?+5?
I used to work at Siliconix (a now defunct semiconductor manufacturer) and when there I learned that we were making a custom chip (I think a hybrid analog/digital A/D converter) for Fluke meters. I had thought they were for the 8060, but I guess not. DRTaylor, do you have any recollection of what I'm talking about?
Bill, I believe that Siliconix supplied a custom chip used in the 8050 A/D. It had a lot of low leakage analog switches and was used in conjunction with external Op Amps. If I come across any proof of this I'll post it. But this is just a vague memory. I do know that we used a lot of discrete Siliconix J-Fets for low leakage analog switches. Siliconix was another victim of the Vishay plan to rule the world (of discretes)!
Is there a specification on the battery option toroidal transformer?
I would like to implement it.
range offset
200mVDC -0.14
2VDC -0.0002
20VDC -0.18
200VDC -0.14
1000VDC -0.14
200mVAC 0.15
2VAC 0.0051
20VAC 0.14
200VAC 0.14
1000VAC 0.14
200Ohm -0.14
2kOhm -0.013
20kOhm -0.11
200kOhm -0.11
MOhm -0.07
what about the MAC chip itself needing a IPA clean if its original socket was contaminated!The gold plated pins looked OK, no visable contamination at the MAC at all.
(you did IPA the area where the leaking cap was too ?).Of course. I found some green "copper rust" at the PCB under the leaked cap.
range offset
200mVDC -0.01 to 0.00
2VDC -0.0001 to 0.0000
20VDC -0.001 to 0.000
200VDC -0.01 to 0.00
1000VDC -0.1 to 0.0
200mVAC 0.00
2VAC 0.0030 to 0.0045, depending on mechanical tension on the input bushings? (not really reproducable)
20VAC 0.000 to 0.001
200VAC 0.01
1000VAC 0.0
200Ohm 0.00
2kOhm -0.0001 to 0.0000
20kOhm -0.001 to 0.000
200kOhm -0.01 to 0.00
MOhm -0.0001 to 0.0000
Caution
Do not touch or contaminate the plastic insulator that is attached to the inside of the case bottom.
When the instrument is assembled the insulator makes contact with the leads on the bottom of the main pcb.
Contaminants could cause undesirable conduction paths.
If the insulator becomes contaminated, clean with isopropyl alcohol.
I found a Fluke D 800 recently and was curious how old it was, I can't even come up with a good guess.Likely 1980 as per
I found a Fluke D 800 recently and was curious how old it was, I can't even come up with a good guess.Likely 1980 as per
http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php?topic=71868.0;wap2 (http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php?topic=71868.0;wap2)
Chuck at Fluke talks about the D800 at
http://www.fluke.com/fluke/sgen/community/fluke-news-plus/articlecategories/rd/chuck-checks-out-forums-on-test-equipment (http://www.fluke.com/fluke/sgen/community/fluke-news-plus/articlecategories/rd/chuck-checks-out-forums-on-test-equipment)
I found a Fluke D 800 recently and was curious how old it was, I can't even come up with a good guess.Likely 1980 as per
http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php?topic=71868.0;wap2 (http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php?topic=71868.0;wap2)
Chuck at Fluke talks about the D800 at
http://www.fluke.com/fluke/sgen/community/fluke-news-plus/articlecategories/rd/chuck-checks-out-forums-on-test-equipment (http://www.fluke.com/fluke/sgen/community/fluke-news-plus/articlecategories/rd/chuck-checks-out-forums-on-test-equipment)
You are one of the most helpful people I've ever come across on any forum, you are great at finding info and finding helpful links. Thank you for this and the other thread :-+
I purchased it from a local estate sale for $5. Fluke 8060A in unused condition. Absolutely mint in box with case.Awesome deal. :-+
I haven't opened it up yet to check the caps, but with it working perfect, I will probably wait a bit until I replace them.While the outside is in mint condition, I wouldn't assume the insides are the same. I urge you to take it out and closely examine the bottom of the capacitors which is where they leak in these 8060As. They could have already leaked if the meter was stored in a hot environment (attic with window, sunny year round weather, 45+C in Arizona, etc).
I purchased it from a local estate sale for $5. Fluke 8060A in unused condition. Absolutely mint in box with case.I hate you. >:D
Does anyone know how to decode the serial numbers on the Fluke DMMs? Are they the same even to the modern ones?
Worse ase, I can guestimate the manufacture date from the date codes on some of the ICs on the board for a ball park figure. But the serial number should be the best bet.
I hope you all don't find this too much off topic.
send them to k04bb for archival purposes and availability, it helped me a lot in the past
Documents in german? I offer to write "executive summaries", full transcriptions might be possible but I will not sink unlimited time into it. But a ES is better than nothing, right? :)Hey babysitter and frozenfrogz. Thanks for the offer, but I believe the articles I have in German were just translations of the US articles. Once I post them you can do a comparison and see if any of it is worth translating.
If the caps are slightly leaking at the bottom with no signs of visible invasive creeping corrosion yet, would it be worth giving that bottom area a few forced shots of canned isopropyl alcohol to wash out the area and put off the cap change hangman for another day?If the caps are leaking from the bottom now, change them NOW.
Will the meter need calibration after a careful capacitor change with same values?It is unlikely the meter will need calibration once you change the capacitors. I replaced mine in the 8060A and did not require calibration.
Is it mission critical to use replacement capacitors of same type with standard temp 85?Modemhead's blog has a list of 105C capacitors.
You guessed it, I'm lazy :phew:
@ frozenfrogz
I have a mains operated 240 volt Fluke 8050A I was using just a few days ago, and verify it's still doing its job properly etc and have never noticed any "gentle ’tick’ noise every couple of minutes"
I'll get it out later today to check for that, and reply back.
Edit: No 'tick' noise here, just a wee small transformer hum when held up close, and no relays that I can see inside.
What switch mode/s or conditions does it do the ticking business? Is yours a mains or battery operated type? If it's a battery type perhaps it's a charging/ switching sound? just guessing :-//
Mine is surprisingly still up to spec on all ranges, but not sure if the RMS AC reading 'may' be a few volts off compared with other RMS meters.
Difficult to verify which meter is the spec winner when using slightly flat top 240 volt mains power as a reference/comparison.
I'll have to do it with a function gen and see how my meters really fare one day.
It’s mains only, no batteries inside, the 'tick' appears when it is plugged in. There is no difference in the different mode selections and whether the unit is powered on, or off.Can't hear anything from any of mine. (My hearing is not the best, though.) Both battery and non-battery models use low-voltage power switching, so maybe something to do with the transformer.
I have scanned a write-up I did long ago that explains some hidden features of the 8060A. The illustrations aren't there, but there is sufficient text to explain them. I think these all work...there's always a possibility that the software was modified to eliminate these special features. I also scanned a summary of power up features which shows the ratio mode and the switch test - Useful for troubleshooting.
All the -guilty till proven innocent- electrolytic capacitors are Nichicon brand btw, they are the originals and look like they were installed last week! :oThe date code on your main IC is 0696 suggesting June 1996. So your 8060A isn't as old as some reported here with leaking capacitors. In Modemhead's blog, his main IC is date coded 8244 suggesting 1982 week 44.
Thanks Dr T, love those those old typewritten app notes
Hi Drtaylor, one more question:
In the switch test diagnostic of the 8060A, the buttons each have a binary value when depressed, 8, 4, 2, and 1, respectively. The sum of the depressed buttons is displayed, so dB+REL displays a 5 for example. But these can sum together to higher than 9: in hexadecimal notation, you would still have just one digit, but it goes to 0xA, 0xB, etc.
The 8060A doesn't display "A" on the 7-segment display, it looks more like "o". Was this o symbol used for any actual purpose? It seems strange for its only purpose in life to be a diagnostic!
Re 8050 Tick – I too don't hear anything on my 8050 (at 120VAC).
I remain amazed that there is so much interest in this old stuff.
Whoever scores those meters better bid on a roll of grey duct duck tape too,
the bottom row meters appear to be missing battery covers.
Honest straight up Ebayer > "Untested / Offered AS-IS / Parts or Repair Only / Cosmetics As Pictured / Does Not Include Warranty,
WARRANTY - No Warranty / Offered ASIS / Returns Not Accepted" :-+
MUST. RESIST. THE. TEMPTATION. :scared:
It's easy for me to resist because it would cost a fortune to get them to my country and it I'd have to charge other people a fortune to send them back again.
It's easy for me to resist because it would cost a fortune to get them to my country and it I'd have to charge other people a fortune to send them back again.
It's 115$ USD shipping to me...
It's easy for me to resist because it would cost a fortune to get them to my country and it I'd have to charge other people a fortune to send them back again.
It's 115$ USD shipping to me...
Only $115? :-DD
The real problem would be if they decide to sting me for import tax+charges. That could add $10 to every one of those meters and the math starts to break down. :(
I guess it's really best if somebody from the USA could do this. They can pay a mere $30 shipping (if they live in the right state) and there's zero risk of paying any import tax.
Hardly worth the trouble.
The only ones remotely interesting are the twelve 8060A and the 8062A, with no guarantee that they won't be DOA.
The rest will be near impossible to get rid of.
Rather buy a 8060A that has been refurbished and tested for less than 100$ on eBay, if you're after some measurement nostalgia.
Well, I couldn't resist a fairly low ball offer, and much to my chagrin, the seller accepted my offer.
Well, I couldn't resist a fairly low ball offer, and much to my chagrin, the seller accepted my offer. So I will have a little treasure trove of 8060s. I will fix them with new caps, and start selling them. I might have enough original User Guides for them too (signed if you want). Great first retirement project. Hopefully I can get my buying price back and a little extra.
I'm kind of mad at my self for this impulse buy. I hope my wife doesn't kill me. I really didn't think the seller would accept my offer.
I'm kind of mad at my self for this impulse buy. I hope my wife doesn't kill me.
Well, I couldn't resist a fairly low ball offer, and much to my chagrin, the seller accepted my offer. So I will have a little treasure trove of 8060s. I will fix them with new caps, and start selling them. I might have enough original User Guides for them too (signed if you want). Great first retirement project. Hopefully I can get my buying price back and a little extra. The other 3 1/2 digit devices I'll keep for parts unless they are really clean and in good shape.Hat's off to you :) and the best of luck with these, a very deserved path for them before being put to good use again. :-+
I'm kind of mad at my self for this impulse buy. I hope my wife doesn't kill me. I really didn't think the seller would accept my offer. Anyway give me a few weeks and I'll get them refurb'd and cleaned up. However, I do not have a precision AC Calibrator, so other than comparison with my more recently calibrated DMMs, I have no way to trim the AC at frequencies. I have a friend at Fluke that might let me come in and use a high end calibrator.
I'm planning a trip to Europe in Fall or maybe spring, not sure yet. I'm thinking "gift" 8060s might be traded for lodging or tour guides or ???
Well, I couldn't resist a fairly low ball offer, and much to my chagrin, the seller accepted my offer. So I will have a little treasure trove of 8060s. I will fix them with new caps, and start selling them. I might have enough original User Guides for them too (signed if you want). Great first retirement project. Hopefully I can get my buying price back and a little extra.
I'm planning a trip to Europe in Fall or maybe spring, not sure yet. I'm thinking "gift" 8060s might be traded for lodging or tour guides or ???Count me in if you want to come to Spain (with or without meter). Valencia in March is the place to be.
If memory serves, I believe the 2 AA board was used instead of a DC-DC due to noise generation and as a way to float the current source. DC-DC converters back then were low frequency and noisy and it was difficult to keep noise out of the sensitive circuits. As techniques and circuits improved, these problems went away (at least if you knew what you were doing). Now days there are far better ways to make floating current sources. But I could be totally wrong about this. I think I have a schematic somewhere and I will try to remember or determine the reasons for that somewhat lame circuit. I'm sure the engineer who designed it (wasn't me) thought it was the bees knees of ohms conversion circuits.
Update on trove of 8060s and other meters. I have had a contract job that should be finished soon. Then my next project is to restore the 8060s. On initial examination, about half of them are somewhat functional. Physically they are in good shape, only one having a kind of ugly case. I have caps to order, but hopefully I will get these going and finished by the end of August.
And I'd sell my soul to the devil, for the chance of one of your 8060s pretty please :)
The display broke a few years ago and I regrettably discarded it -- moving on to my Fluke 87 and 289Since you live in the USA, ebay usually has a lot of 8020A in various conditions that might help you relive your memories?
This is a wonderful thread -- my story on the 8020A is ...
The display broke a few years ago and I regrettably discarded it -- moving on to my Fluke 87 and 289
You can use tantalum caps in the 7660 circuit. At the time, 100uF 16V tantalums were larger than the aluminum caps and very expensive. With the lower ESR of a Tantalum you may be able to lower the values some, say to 68uF/16V. However, Aluminums are so much better today. If you buy a high temp 125 deg 5000 hour aluminum cap you would probably last another 30 years with no problems (and cost way less than tants). Just stay away from 85deg 1000 hr crapcaps. A low ESR cap would perform better than the originals. When I have time, I'll make some recommendations for replacement caps. The caps aren't under much stress in the 8060, so it was just a temperature and aging thing that has caused so many 8060s to get contaminated by the caps spewing. I looked at my five 8060s yesterday and saw no evidence of cap failure. That might change when I try to get them operating, but they have had a very easy life in my cool temp garage and not being powered up very often.
This is the post I was looking for earlier. Is Dr.T still around? I haven't seen him for a while. :(You haven't been looking hard enough. :P
That's a great looking specimen, Fungus. Congrats!
Leaking caps are the primary issue I recall. Some have dying LCD screens, but you're OK there.
Dr. T. is around. I saw a few posts from him recently. IIRC he's in the middle of a job/project.
From his profile:
Last Active: Today at 11:13:07 AM (NZ time)
He'll spot your question, the longest I've seen him take to reply is a week or so and you probably won't have your 8060A by then anyway.From his profile:
Last Active: Today at 11:13:07 AM (NZ time)
So I'm just not in the right threads. :D
Ah, I have not listened to that episode. I'll have to do that.
I still look forward to buying one of Dr. T's 8060s in due course.
If you scored a late 1990s model, it may have the good Nichicon caps already, so the meter is good to go once you verify the specs are ok.
Yay, ditched the 5 dollar Wun Hung Tu Lo clay shoot targets and got a real meter huh?
...and welcome to the unofficial Fluke 8060A Club :-+
https://theamphour.com/180-an-interview-with-dave-taylor-multi-talented-meter-maker/
I still look forward to buying one of Dr. T's 8060s in due course.
Not just any old 8060A for you, eh?
I just started work on my 8060A restoration project. I have the 8060s from the eBay auction and a few of my own to fix up. My lab is all set up for a production line operation for 15 8060s and one 8062. I'm keeping notes on each one, condition, functional, rev of the assembly and PCB. Several were fully functional.
A few just need their LCD connections cleaned. A few turned on but have obvious problems. Only 1 was completely DOA. Only 1 had plating on the LCD, but it was the 8062. Regardless if they were fully functional, I am recapping all of them. I am also cleaning the two elastomeric connectors, the carbon one for the LCD, and the silver filled one that connects the SM4 to the MAC. Also cleaning the PCB patterns that contact the elastomerics.
I would be good to know how to clean LCD connections, elastomeric connectors, etc. Those things scare me.
I only ever took one important LCD apart and the rubber was stuck to the glass really hard. I worried about ripping tracks off the LCD's glass or something. Is that possible?
It all worked out in the end and the faded digits came back to life after I put it back together. I had no idea what I was doing at the time though and I always wonder how close I was to destroying the device.
Also: Are zebra connectors completely generic? ie. If a connector is rotten can you simply replace it with another one of the right size or do they have internal tracks with spacings that need to be matched up?
I only had peripheral contact with the 8050. It used a discrete analog dual slope converter with a custom controller IC. Getting that circuit working well was a trial for the designer. So the 8050 was still a dumb design, no software, and therefore only slightly related to the 8060. I remember studying its circuitry carefully while designing the 8060. I knew the 8050 input design would never support wideband AC readings, so I pretty much went my own way on the input structure of the 8060.
I would be good to know how to clean LCD connections, elastomeric connectors, etc. Those things scare me.I'm fairly sure you can find all you need here:
Modemhead documents it for the Fluke 87.I would be good to know how to clean LCD connections, elastomeric connectors, etc. Those things scare me.I'm fairly sure you can find all you need here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/vintageclassic-renovation-techniques/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/vintageclassic-renovation-techniques/)
Modemhead documents it for the Fluke 87.
Very slowly and carefully pull the connectors from the glass. It should help to rock them from side to side to break the seal. The key is to not tear the connectors, which is another way to ruin your day. The connectors are not glued on
I only had peripheral contact with the 8050. It used a discrete analog dual slope converter with a custom controller IC. Getting that circuit working well was a trial for the designer. So the 8050 was still a dumb design, no software, and therefore only slightly related to the 8060. I remember studying its circuitry carefully while designing the 8060. I knew the 8050 input design would never support wideband AC readings, so I pretty much went my own way on the input structure of the 8060.
I was thinking about looking for an 8050A to go with my 8060A. It's a teeny bit more accurate and I assumed they were related. Now I'm not so sure. Maybe I should get another 8060A instead. It's the one true meter.
I think I just found I have a Fluke problem
The controller IC in the 8050 is a fully custom IC with A/D state machine control and if I remember correctly, the dB conversion was table driven with segment curve fitting. No software! This same approach was used on the 8920 TRMS Voltmeter, again no software. In the late 70s, high end system DMMs were being made with early uC and uP chips. There was an engineering manager at the time that was fighting against putting that new-fangled Microprocessor stuff into precision instruments. He was demoted in favor of a more forward thinker. The 8060A was notable as the first handheld that had a processor in it. It came out about a year after the 8050. I sat right next to the 8050 design team, but again, I had nothing to do with the 8050 design. I was finishing up my modest contribution to the 8920-8921 right before starting work on the 8060.
AFAIK there's some software in it. The IC is a Mostek one rather than a Fluke ASIC and it supports similar dB functionality into defined impedances. The only thing it's missing that I don't really like is audible continuity but I've got an 8024 floating around for that.
In a side note, one of my 8060s is really a prototype unit. It has a ceramic MAC chip, the RMS converter in a socket, and it has several kludges. The constant current output uses a LM334 and a couple of bodged resistors. There's also a couple of jumpers. This very likely is the oldest 8060 around as it is clear I was still fooling with it.Would be a nice addition to the thread to see some pictures of the proto. unit insides :) , (as time permits of course).
I took it apart to find a date code, etc. I got PCB revision J, date on main chip is week 30, 1989.
As far as I can tell the capacitors aren't Nichicon and look suitably numerous and very fiddly to replace. :( I'm going to leave that job for now.
I took it apart to find a date code, etc. I got PCB revision J, date on main chip is week 30, 1989.Hi Fungus, Sounds like you got a good one.
As far as I can tell the capacitors aren't Nichicon and look suitably numerous and very fiddly to replace. :( I'm going to leave that job for now.
Rev J was done after I left Fluke. Really makes me want to see the Rev History. As I mentioned earlier, I have mostly PCB Rev H and PCA Rev H. Rev J would be one revision newer as Fluke and most companies skip "I" due to possibility of confusion with "1".
If you don't replace the Caps, you could be in for trouble later. I'd use a magnifier and look carefully around the bottoms of all the Alum Caps for any signs of electrolyte leakage (but it may be there anyway and you won't see it). Your caps are >20 years old. But if it works...
Being a newbie to electronics (have not had a chance to own or repair many old things), I wonder if you changed all of the capacitors on a device that has many, and went with high quality branded replacements, would it be costly comparing to the device itself?It depends on what types of capacitors were specified. Radial aluminum electrolytics of high quality are not expensive. From 20 cents for 10 uF to a couple dollars for 1000 uF in small quantities. The axial and screw-mount types are more expensive, and locating extra low leakage parts can be a challenge. Wet tantalum capacitors are outrageously expensive (found in Tektronix gear, not only military equipment).
Then, probably some things like potentiometers cost even more if you go for high quality.Again, it depends on the type. Cermet trimmers (for calibration, unaccessible with the case closed) of high quality are less than a dollar each for most ranges. On the other hand, 10-turn geared potentiometers are fairly expensive.
I like all the 8060A power-on self tests for the switches and buttons, etc. :)
8V output in diode test mode. :)
One of the little black rubber feet underneath is turning to goo and came off (stuck to the table). >:(
It's smaller than I expected. :) :)
Pimp it up !
My lab is all set up for a production line operation for 15 8060s and one 8062.
Just speaking for myself, though I suspect I might find some agreement here, I think the design envelope is open again. Should you see fit to make any...improvements...well, it IS your design.lol....
No bean counters here!
8V output in diode test mode. :)The diode test range uses a constant current diode (JFET based) to generate 1mA output. It has a 1V to 2V drop. It's connected directly to the battery plus which is why you are seeing 8V open circuit. It will not stay at 8V when loaded. The compliance voltage will also drop as the battery depletes. The diode test is limited to 2Vfs. Even though the 8060 will light most LEDs, if the LED has a Vf of >=2V at 1mA, the 8060 will indicate OL. Most of the older chemistry LEDs are close to 2V at only 1mA. But it will light even a blue/white LED, it just won't show the Vf. It might be an interesting modification to force the 8060 into the 20V range. Then you could do some matching. But I'd also want to provide 10~20mA which is appropriate for all small LEDs.
Thanks for the pic. , the big question is ....... Are there any bodge wires on the bottom side ?. :DSurprisingly no!
My lab is all set up for a production line operation for 15 8060s and one 8062.
Would love to see some pics of your production line, Mr. T.
I've just been looking at the test points on my meter and it's all weird. I'm sure there's some mistakes in the manual.The downloadable manual is for the most recent models manufactured, with the RMS converter daughter board. It seems to be a mix of old and new content. Attached is a scan of an older hardcopy manual (Rev 3 1/88). It may clear up some things.
First of all, there's no TP1 in the diagram, and two TP8s.The one to the right should read TP6 (notice the ordering, left to right: 9, 8, 7, 6)
On one of the TP8s I get 2.05V, which doesn't correspond to anything in the list and is a long way from the 3.15V mentioned.It says "3.15V ref to VDD". 3.15+2.05=5.20
On the other TP8 there's a square wave which switches between 2 and a bit volts (same voltage as the TP8 above?) and 5.3V at 2.43 Hz (see screenshot).That is the TP6 ADC trigger, a square wave as indicated
My lab is all set up for a production line operation for 15 8060s and one 8062.
Would love to see some pics of your production line, Mr. T.
Well, I shouldn't have called it a production line, but the attached picture shows a portion of my workbench where I am reworking the 8060s. Each unit has a dedicated box so I wouldn't mix them up (you can see more boxes stacked on some of my instruments). My Pace MBT100 does the hard work. My glass soaking tray on the right holds 3 8060s at a time. Bottles of pure IPA are seen to the right of the covered tray.
I use one of my functional 8060s seen on the left for continuity testing (the 8060A has one of the the fastest stretched continuity functions) to make sure that any found corrosion has not eaten a trace. I also use the 200nS range to track down leakage.
A pile of pulled caps is sitting there (yeah, I'm messy) but I was thinking about checking to see how the caps would read for value and leakage current and other cap parameters just to educate myself on what exactly a 35 year old cap does. The ones that were definitely leaking electrolyte...I know what they'll measure. I'm more interested in what caps with 35 year old electrolyte measure from a unit that was still functional. The new caps are in the Mouser bags.
Picture of prototype 8060A from my collection. You can see the MAC chip in a ceramic DIP with a glued on top, dated Jan 6 1983. The TRMS chip is in a socket. If I remember properly, I used this 8060A to test the TRMS chips for performance and consistency with the selected components.
Just to the left of the MAC chip, you can see a blue ceramic cap that is kludged with a long lead wire. In the lower left hand side you can see an LM334 and two kludged in resistors in place of the constant current diode that was and is the final design. I think I was experimenting with using more current than the FET based CC diode.
Also notable is one more Tantalum Caps than in the final design. You can see it just above the pot next to the TRMS chip. This is now a 100uF/6.3V Alum. The tantalum cap next to the Piezo is a larger size than the final design.
I've just been looking at the test points on my meter and it's all weird. I'm sure there's some mistakes in the manual.The downloadable manual is for the most recent models manufactured, with the RMS converter daughter board. It seems to be a mix of old and new content. Attached is a scan of an older hardcopy manual (Rev 3 1/88). It may clear up some things.
Vdg (TP8) is -3.15V when measured with respect to Vdd (TP1 or TP7).
The slow square on TP6 is a convenient scope trigger for observing the integration/de-integration cycle at U3p17.
I was wondering about that "daughter board" (which I don't have). Thanks for clearing it up.I only have one unit with the daughter board, pictured here. The device in the can is an AD636KH.
I can't see any obvious capacitor spew yet but I should probably pluck up courage to have a go at them. I'll wait and see what DrT's final recommendations for types/values are.I've collected six of these and the serial number of all the ones I've seen capacitor damage on started with a "3". "4" and up has been okay so far. Not to say they won't spew their guts tomorrow though...
I've collected six of these and the serial number of all the ones I've seen capacitor damage on started with a "3". "4" and up has been okay so far.
I was wondering about that "daughter board" (which I don't have). Thanks for clearing it up.I only have one unit with the daughter board, pictured here. The device in the can is an AD636KH.
Out of interest: Could you tell us the serial number/date/revision of that one?Well, I'm not 100% sure about the serial number... It does not have the number etched into the plastic like others. There is however a cal sticker from the previous owner that says S/N: 7613xxxx, which I guess is the Fluke S/N.
I've collected six of these and the serial number of all the ones I've seen capacitor damage on started with a "3". "4" and up has been okay so far.
Mine is 492xxx that's nearly a 5!
one made in Mexico with serial 974xxxx,Hmm, I discoverd that some Fluke 70s were made in China as per
one made in Mexico with serial 974xxxx,Hmm, I discoverd that some Fluke 70s were made in China as per
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/i-thought-all-fluke-70-series-were-made-in-usa/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/i-thought-all-fluke-70-series-were-made-in-usa/)
but this is the first time I heard Fluke made in Mexico.
Can you post of picture of the back please?
Disaster!
I was putting the lid back on the meter and one of the screw posts broke off. I was being as gentle as I could, etc., but I guess the plastic is getting old and I don't know what previous owner-gorillas have done to it in the past.
On careful inspection I also noticed a crack in the other screw post down near the bottom.
I don't think the one near the bottom is going anywhere because it's pressed between the input jacks. The one at the top, though? It's gone.
I has a sad. :(
What now? Epoxy?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=342456;image)
Epoxy worked for me.Modemhead has a few documented cases at
Disaster!
I was putting the lid back on the meter and one of the screw posts broke off. I was being as gentle as I could, etc., but I guess the plastic is getting old and I don't know what previous owner-gorillas have done to it in the past.
On careful inspection I also noticed a crack in the other screw post down near the bottom.
I don't think the one near the bottom is going anywhere because it's pressed between the input jacks. The one at the top, though? It's gone.
I has a sad. :(
What now? Epoxy?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/old-fluke-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=342456;image)
What I would do in this situation is get the Dremel out with a tiny round die grinder tip and rough up the surface around the break, being careful not to mar the actual broken surface. I would use cyanoacrilate to stick the part back on, then bury the whole roughed up area with JB-weld
another option is cyanoacrilate and baking soda, really strong reinforcement. always works for me. you can reconstruct pieces with missing parts even, a bit of labor cause yo need apply both ingredients in alternate way (layers), i put a good drop of cyanoacrilate in a piece of glass, and grab a tiny amount with a jewerly flat screewdriver then baking soda till you obtain the needed volume and form, you can sand, drill the resultant rock.
best regards
Pio
Don't get too creative on any renovation work before confirming the case will still close, it's a tight ship in there
yeah, I have used the cyanoacrilate/baking soda trick too, the resultant matter is hard indeed, good call
another option is cyanoacrilate and baking soda, really strong reinforcement. always works for me. you can reconstruct pieces with missing parts even, a bit of labor cause yo need apply both ingredients in alternate way (layers), i put a good drop of cyanoacrilate in a piece of glass, and grab a tiny amount with a jewerly flat screewdriver then baking soda till you obtain the needed volume and form, you can sand, drill the resultant rock.
Just as a note there are two subtle differences between bicarb and baking powder.
...
As far as the replacement caps, I've decided to use Polymer Aluminums. These have the advantage of lower ESR and higher ripple current (not really necessary for the 8060), but best of all, due to the organic polymer, they will not spew electrolyte. These 8060s should last for another 30 years. I only had one value I could not fit physically in the position. So I went with the Nichicon UTT for the 22uF/16V part. All the rest are Nichicon RS, RNS or RNU types.
All these parts are in stock at Mouser.
Just as a note there are two subtle differences between bicarb and baking powder.
They're completely different things.
The choice of glue seems important. Loctite professional is the way to go according to several web sites.
Continuing to use sharp metal self tapping screws into flimsy thin plastic posts from the 1980s till recently, on EXPENSIVE professional and industrial Cat rated meters,
severely compromising their containment strength in an unfortunate -meter blowout- scenario, as shown in the scare tactic 'marketing' videos :scared: is D U H City... :palm: :palm:
I have encountered those problem occasionally, but never on a meter that was owned by me from first hand. Why? My screw-in procedure starts with a little search rotation to the left, then you feel the start of the pseodothread cut by the screw before.
I have encountered those problem occasionally, but never on a meter that was owned by me from first hand.
I wonder if Dr.T has any insight on this design decision...
NO AC volts function. I have a couple days to return it. But I would like to know if say an ac coupling cap could cause this. I was planning to recap anyway.
Can a bad fuseable protection device cause only a no AC problem?
Recapping an 8060A:
(I apologize for the long length of this post and perhaps too much detail here. But not everyone doing this has your years of experience. Use good ESD practices.)
Perhaps this issue needs a separate post elsewhere, to keep things here more On Topic :)
Perhaps this issue needs a separate post elsewhere, to keep things here more On Topic :)
Maybe you could start your very own "Electro Detective's Rants" thread. 8)
Thanks, Fungus.
All the switches are solid, no scratchyness. I also did all the self tests including the switch tests. All ok according to table. Not sure how thorough that is.
I don't want to lose my chance of returning it. I wrote the seller last night asking if I could poke around inside, but haven't heard from him yet.
Further pondering of schematic tells me the cap replacement list would not be related to the trms area anyway.
The ac coupling cap on the input is unlikely to be bad.
Bummer, I thought I'd be able to use it this weekend in DB mode to work on broadcast and recording studio upgrades.
NO AC volts function.If you can't return it or decide to keep it, my 8060A arrived with bad, but not obviously bulged visible caps. They spewed from the bottom and some electrolyte managed to wick its way up the AC calibration pot. A couple of turns full left and full right got my AC working. Obviously, you may have a different problem, but something worth considering?
BTW, the 8060A manual suggests
Switches S3D, S3B
Check power supply connections
J13 Vss
J7 Com
J12 Vdd
Many thanks to Mr. Taylor for the generous postings here :clap: :clap:Why did the post crack exactly? I don't quite get the gist of the spot welding remark.
Everyone here realises the plastic post screw casing fiasco isn't on him,
nor is it an exclusive Fluke thing, despite it still going on! :palm:
Here's one of my Fluke 87Vs that I opened recently for the first time to give it a check and borrow it's fuse to test another meter
As I unscrewed I felt/heard a crack type sound, and assumed it was the self tapping screw binding on the post. :-//
Upon close inspection...well, a picture is like a thousand words
i.e. the sucker was spot welded to the post, so of course any normal force to unscrew it, cracked the post!
I'm past ranting about this stuff, the manufacturers charging big dollars and boasting CAT Rated explosive containment that isn't better than many $6.99 One Hung TuLo meters,
need to get their act into gear ASAP.
Perhaps this issue needs a separate post elsewhere, to keep things here more On Topic :)
Why did the post crack exactly? I don't quite get the gist of the spot welding remark.
Ah. I wonder what could be done to mitigate the issue. Cracking your hundreds of dollars costing device is never a lot of fun. Maybe some light penetrating oil might help, or vibrating the screw while trying to unscrew it?Why did the post crack exactly? I don't quite get the gist of the spot welding remark.
I guess Electro Detective was saying, that the screw bonded e.g. "spot welded" with the screw post, thus needing excessive (in regard to pure stick/slip friction between metal and plastic) force to loosen the connection.
I have encountered those problem occasionally, but never on a meter that was owned by me from first hand.
Being careful is always a considerable option. On the other hand I can not deny that self-tapping screws are usually a sign for cheaply made products. Even the Voltcraft 6010 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/voltcraft-6010-(nos-from-1984)-unboxing-and-teardown-(picture-heavy)/msg1179444/#msg1179444)made in Korea by Hung Chang (rebranded HC601) has brass inserts.
Remember that Fluke pioneered the handheld LCD DMM with the release of the 8020. The 8060s case was derived from that and the means of screwing the halves together was developed for the 8020 and its derivatives. This type of plastic does get more brittle over time, but for the most part, the self-tapping (designed for plastic) screw sheathes have held up fine. Brass inserts are no panacea as I have seen them pulled out or actually break the plastic they are swedged into. I never over tighten the mounting screws and never use an electric screwdriver to put them in. BTW, I would not lube the screws, just be careful.
Why did the post crack exactly? I don't quite get the gist of the spot welding remark.
I guess Electro Detective was saying, that the screw bonded e.g. "spot welded" with the screw post, thus needing excessive (in regard to pure stick/slip friction between metal and plastic) force to loosen the connection.
This one appears to have no serial number on the back. Is it one of the pre-production units? :-//
http://www.ebay.com/itm/162648532644 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/162648532644)
Edit: The pixels where the serial number should be are slightly discolored. I wonder if the seller photoshopped it.
The issue is in the too -hard basket- even for genies, wizards, witches and the horned dude below >:D
Anybody want a blue one? :popcorn:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/162649858342 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/162649858342)
Just don't eat or smoke it [...] and you'll do ok :-+
That nice grey/gray/non-blue one is still on offer http://www.ebay.com/itm/162648532644 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/162648532644)
One went a couple of weeks ago for $66, new in box with everything. Serial number in the 400s so probably a good one.
One went a couple of weeks ago for $66, new in box with everything. Serial number in the 400s so probably a good one.
It appears to even have its original battery (thankfully not installed). Amazing.
One went a couple of weeks ago for $66, new in box with everything. Serial number in the 400s so probably a good one.It works perfectly. And not a scratch on it. ;D
One went a couple of weeks ago for $66, new in box with everything. Serial number in the 400s so probably a good one.It works perfectly. And not a scratch on it. ;D
From the serial number I'd guess it was made a year or two before mine, so ... around 1988.Good guess. The date code on the Fluke RMS converter is 8649, so the unit was probably manufactured in early 1987. The board rev is "H". The battery was made long before they started putting use-by dates on them. It is a nasty corroded mess on the back side. It's an interesting relic, but I won't be keeping it in the box for sure. The operator's guide is already stained a bit.
...The date code on the Fluke RMS converter is 8649, so the unit was probably manufactured in early 1987. The board rev is "H".
...All functions perfect, spot on with dc reference, and DB works...
One went a couple of weeks ago for $66, new in box with everything. Serial number in the 400s so probably a good one.It works perfectly. And not a scratch on it. ;D
allowing a small "IPA Friendly" space between the board and cap body?When I recapped my 8060A, one (or more) capacitors were under the display assembly which constrained the maximum height.
:scared:
It's a Fluke...........it must be YELLOW. :P
hello, anybody have a picture of the 300v version of the 8060a? i never have seen any. unless the exterior labels be the same in both 1000v and 300v (i doubt it), if yes how to know which is which?
The Fluke 8060A can only withstand 300V on its resistance ranges
Some issues of the manual did contain misprints. But I think you are right that it was intended to have 500V peak protection on Ohms, as that was advertised.
The copy you can download from fluke.com does say 300V
hello, anybody have a picture of the 300v version of the 8060a? i never have seen any. unless the exterior labels be the same in both 1000v and 300v (i doubt it), if yes how to know which is which?
In 1990, the "CAT standards" (Measurement Categories per IEC 61010-1) for meters were released. The Fluke 8060A can only withstand 300V on its resistance ranges, so it can only meet CAT I 300V. To qualify for a "CAT I" label, the voltage ranges were reduced to 300V for both DC and AC. Otherwise, I don't think the meter was changed: it is no safer than the unmodified 8060A.
It can be recognized by two differences from the normal model: the presence of "CAT I" below and to the right of the red jack, and the highest voltage range is marked "300V \$ \simeq \$ " instead of the normal "1000V DC / 750V AC". In addition, the maximal voltage limits printed underneath the jacks are lower (300V MAX from common to earth instead of 500V, and 300V \$ \simeq \$ from red to common instead of 1000V DC / 750V AC MAX).
Here's a picture: https://cache.osta.ee/iv2/auctions/1_9_30853067.jpg
Someone started rebuilding some broken traces ...
Would you be interested in tear down pictures?
Another 80xx meter has landed :) This time it is an 8024A.The design was done mid to late 1970s - that is how they rolled back then... 8)
What’s odd to me: The fuse holder is stuck on the back of the battery connector. Also it is only for a 2A 250V 5x20mm glass fuse (AGX-2).
The assembly is made out of riveted card board. There are also no rubber feet on the back.
Am I correct in guessing this meter is pre 1980s?
Would you be interested in tear down pictures?
The earlier 8020A/8022A/8024A family of portable Flukes usually had a single 2A fuse tied to the battery - the road to CAT ratings was still being paved.
The later "B" revisions of these meters replaced it with an HRC 3A fuse inside the meter.
[...]
This 8024B teardown (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8024b-33-years-old-and-still-going-strong!-beware-3mb-photos/) from the user Spawn has pictures missing from the server (expired account). I'll ask him if they can be re-posted.
You are absolutely right; my list above should not include the 8024A.The earlier 8020A/8022A/8024A family of portable Flukes usually had a single 2A fuse tied to the battery - the road to CAT ratings was still being paved.
The later "B" revisions of these meters replaced it with an HRC 3A fuse inside the meter.
[...]
This 8024B teardown (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8024b-33-years-old-and-still-going-strong!-beware-3mb-photos/) from the user Spawn has pictures missing from the server (expired account). I'll ask him if they can be re-posted.
Thanks for the info :) Funny enough, the copy of the 8024A manual I found features the same HRC + glass fuse configuration as the 8020B, 8060A you mentioned.
Given that the pictures are not accessible any more and me liking to take some photos, I will write a small article with pictures.
Thanks for the info :) Funny enough, the copy of the 8024A manual I found features the same HRC + glass fuse configuration as the 8020B, 8060A you mentioned.
Yes, it was common to have a small glass fuse to protect the big expensive fuse from stupid (and costly) mistakes. I've got a fluke from the 1980s that does it.
I wonder why they don't still do this, it makes a lot of sense to me.
My old 8060A is still my favorite handheld DMM. Bought it new around 28 years ago.
Here are various forward voltage readings of my meters in diode test mode, figures in brackets are taken with my 8060A in series to measure testing current - except 8060A in series with 8050A::wtf:
Diode: 1N4007
8020B: 0.680 V (0.805 V, 0.8069 mA)
8024A: 0.853 V (0.975 V, 0.6367 mA)
8060A: 0.5797 V (0.6781 V, 0.9748 mA)
8050A: 0.6421 V (0.7583 V, 0.8702 mA)
79SeriesII: 0.552 V (0.607 V, 0.6041 mA)
UT139C: 0.587 V (0.683, 1.0061 mA)
HC601: 0.794 V (0.915 V, 0.6854 mA)
VC6010: 0.746 V (0.867 V, 0.7355 mA)
Can you calibrate this separately in the meters or is it just depending on the overall V / A calibration?
DMM Model | 1 x 0.1\$\Omega\$ | 1 x 100\$\Omega\$ | 1 x 10 k\$\Omega\$ | 10 x 10 k\$\Omega\$ |
UT139C | 000.1/.0 | 099.9 | 10.00k | 100.0k |
8060A | 0.10/.09 | 99.97 | 10.004k | 1000.06k |
8050A | 00.10 | 99.98 | 10.007k | 100.08k |
8024A | 00.1/.2 | 99.8/.9 | 10.00k | 100.1k |
8020B | 00.1/.2 | 100.0 | 10.00k | 100.1k |
79II | 00.10 | 100.0 | 10.01k | 100.1k |
HC601 | 00.1 | 99.8 | 10.00k | 99.9k |
VC6010 | 00.1/.2 | 99.7/.8 | 10.01k | 100.1k |
I have a fluke 87 that the frame that clamps the lcd and conductive rubber has broken the little lugs.
Any ideas where I can buy these frames?
Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk
I have a fluke 87 that the frame that clamps the lcd and conductive rubber has broken the little lugs.
Any ideas where I can buy these frames?
Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk
I would not use the 8010A for daily use though if I had to make a living on it - not because of accuracy concerns but because of legibility and working speed. (One day I will have the time to do a proper LED conversion...)
Seems old Fluke bench multimeters are somewhat under represented in this thread so let me contribute. Top to bottom:
8600A
8000A
8010A
8050A
And just peeking in lower left...
8021A
1st generation 87.
You sad about working speed
What do You mean since 8010A is manual range meter?
Seems old Fluke bench multimeters are somewhat under represented in this thread so let me contribute. Top to bottom:
8600A
8000A
8010A
8050A
And just peeking in lower left...
8021A
1st generation 87.
I'm really happy with my 8600A which I picked up from the same seller as the HP6236B at a hamfest. I wouldn't mind having another, or even an 8800A; it seems stable and accurate, and I can read it from a mile away even in high ambient light. While it might annoy some people, I actually like the loud relay click when it switches ranges; it alerts me that something has changed, even if I'm not looking at the meter.
Tell me
what benefits of fluke 8010A for 2018?
When You use it really?
I see bunch of them at yours workbenches
Since that original post in September of last year I've added a 8800A to the collection. This guy is dead accurate out to 4 digits when measuring the two AD584-M references and is my bench standard.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/922/IeCqgL.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmIeCqgLj)
TWO of them. Nice. :-+ Is it worth scanning the Bay for an inexpensive one (there seem to be two prices: $400 and $50 ;D ) these days? I seem to recall people mentioning that a lot of DMMs get sold as "for parts" even though they're somewhat functional and repairable - is that likely with an 8800? I've never had to fix a Fluke meter so I don't know what I might be getting into; but if it's a reasonable thing to look for I can certainly start watching for one.Both of my 8800A we bought locally from the popular classified site. C21 had leaked on both of them. Recapped them both cleaned the switches had them calibrated ($40 each) and have not had 1 issue with them in the 5 years I have had them.
TWO of them. Nice. :-+ Is it worth scanning the Bay for an inexpensive one (there seem to be two prices: $400 and $50 ;D ) these days? I seem to recall people mentioning that a lot of DMMs get sold as "for parts" even though they're somewhat functional and repairable - is that likely with an 8800? I've never had to fix a Fluke meter so I don't know what I might be getting into; but if it's a reasonable thing to look for I can certainly start watching for one.The hardest fix I had to do was to repair my dad's old 8020A (portable) where the LCD had leaked. I followed Mr. Modemhead's procedure (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-8020a-lcd-replacement/).
TWO of them. Nice. :-+ Is it worth scanning the Bay for an inexpensive one (there seem to be two prices: $400 and $50 ;D ) these days? I seem to recall people mentioning that a lot of DMMs get sold as "for parts" even though they're somewhat functional and repairable - is that likely with an 8800? I've never had to fix a Fluke meter so I don't know what I might be getting into; but if it's a reasonable thing to look for I can certainly start watching for one.
Sounds like auction site purchases for this instrument come down to "do you feel lucky, punk?" and willingness to dive in and fix odd failure modes. I guess that's why I like hamfests - if you can actually find something you have hands-on right away and an honest seller will let you power it up first.
Next step: Buy half a dozen of them and Dr. Frankenstein a good one or three from that DMM morgue. :-DMM
Sounds like auction site purchases for this instrument come down to "do you feel lucky, punk?" and willingness to dive in and fix odd failure modes. I guess that's why I like hamfests - if you can actually find something you have hands-on right away and an honest seller will let you power it up first.
Hamfests are just as bad usually. Most of the ones here don't bless you with power so you have to take a gamble. Last one I got very lucky though. Some of the sellers were probably more dodgy than eBay however.
I just got a supposedly NIB 8060A off of eBay, it has not arrived yet.This one?
So, perhaps one type would be better suited to the meter's measurement circuitry and the other type to the power supply filtering? Or is it that simple?
Well, Flukers (is that too crude? >:D ) it looks like I have an 8800A/AF on the way. Guaranteed working, pictures supplied of the unit allegedly powered up and working in multiple modes. Fingers crossed, it's supposed to arrive tomorrow.
Now, business: this, and my 8600A, are likely in ticking time bomb mode as far as electrolytic caps are concerned. I've read almost all of this thread, and it seems maybe the aluminum poly caps are the best replacements? How about for replacing the tantalums? I'm putting together a BOM to get my meters updated so (without starting any arguments) what's the consensus?
The seller says there is a dim character in the display; I have not had time to read the entire thread yet so I'm not sure if that is repairable.
Some 8060a Flukes. These were in a junk box of a person who gave them away for very little money. None of them working properly. Will try to repair as many as possible, but it seems most of the displays are faulty, most of the housings are broken somewhere. Btw, I am not the owner, got them for repair.Welcome to the forum.
Let's hope you can specify that part of the cost of repair is to keep one for yourself. :)That's the deal: repair as many as you can, keep one of your choice. That choice would be easy, only one of them is US made, all the others are NL made.
:clap:Let's hope you can specify that part of the cost of repair is to keep one for yourself. :)That's the deal: repair as many as you can, keep one of your choice. That choice would be easy, only one of them is US made, all the others are NL made.
Oh yes, this thread started it. As I said, it was a junk box nobody really cared about. Now I found out that recapping is not very funny.Nice little save from land fill !, while your in 're capping' mode, you should also look inside the 8050 as there are also some small electro's that maybe starting to leak. Well worth a quick check.
Btw, there is another toy which fortunately works quite well. For comparison a pic with a calibrated HP MM.
Well, Flukers (is that too crude? >:D ) it looks like I have an 8800A/AF on the way. Guaranteed working, pictures supplied of the unit allegedly powered up and working in multiple modes. Fingers crossed, it's supposed to arrive tomorrow.
Now, business: this, and my 8600A, are likely in ticking time bomb mode as far as electrolytic caps are concerned. I've read almost all of this thread, and it seems maybe the aluminum poly caps are the best replacements? How about for replacing the tantalums? I'm putting together a BOM to get my meters updated so (without starting any arguments) what's the consensus?
My 8600A just had a major crap out due to tantalums. See here...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg1839170/#msg1839170 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg1839170/#msg1839170)
Interesting! I haven't seen this sort of misbehavior on my 8600A or 8800A; they seem to be pretty accurate within a minute or less of power-up.
How much change in adjustment was required? And what are you using for the DCV and resistance standards? I don't have access to anything accurate enough to re-calibrate either of my meters to that degree of precision.
I have an assortment of references that, while not traceable, do a credible job. First, I have two AD-584M references. One as primary and one as backup. They are accurate and stable enough to check up to 5.5 digit DMM's. But they only cover 2.5VDC to 10.0VDC. I have 2 home built references for 100.0mV, 1.000V, 10.00V and 190.0mV, 1.900V, and 19.00V that are really only accurate enough to do 3.5 digit DMM's but if I monitor their output with the known accurate 8800A I can adjust the 8600A pretty much dead nuts.
I have an inverter card that generates 190.0VDC but it isn't very stable but if I monitor it with a known good DMM it at least get's me in the ballpark.
For resistance I built up a decade box of 0.1% resistors from 1.0 ohm thru 10.0MEG. Not perfect but accurate enough for me.
So perhaps I should stock up on relays in my next parts order just to be prepared for the inevitable. Have you looked at the 8800A relays yet? The BOM indicates that the two units use the same Fluke part numbers for the relays though perhaps not the same number of them.
The manuals I have give the same part for the 8800A AC board relays as the 8600A: Relay, reed SPST, 4.5V Fluke #357566 made originally by Coto Coil in Providence, RI. mfr #E8182
The Ohms board on both meters says Relay, reed SPST, 4.5V Fluke #357582, same mfr. #UF40070
Coto is still in business but they don't seem to have any cross-reference to their obsolete products.
Looking up the UF40070 ultimately gives this link: https://www.lintechcomponents.com/product/5945-010140618 (https://www.lintechcomponents.com/product/5945-010140618)
Can't find any data on the E8182 as yet. :(
Restoration Fluke 8300A
Problem1: Last Nixie off.
Problem2: Power switch always ON
Scope pics: 1 = working Transistor, 2 = fail transistor, tested at C (= Anode Nixie)
tested with Tek221, isolated ground free
Found a bad Transistor going to Anode of the non working Nixi, swapped to BF421 = OK
But the Nixi self seems to be defektive, the zero is mostly on and it fires multiple numbers, looks like a mechanical defekt inside, shorted plates.
Displaying of 0 is allready, other numbers NOT.
I have to look to buy a spare.
greetings
Martin
Q36, Q40
:)
There are a few different LED display types in those. Some of the models had very early Monsanto dot matrix displays. Those buggers are (a) impossible to get and (b) totally unreliable. The later LED models are fine as long as they haven't been dropped. The mounting peg system was stupid. You can spot a dropped one a mile off up front by shaking it :)
Past LEDs, the main failure modes I have seen are dicky switches, reed relays packing in, power supply pass transistors with degraded beta, knackered electrolytics, entirely duff ASICs.
Yes agree with the displays. The LCD 8010 was a big regression unfortunately if you ask me. I had one a while back and did actually consider backlighting it.
the 883A Differential Voltmeter :)
........ except this +- bulb.Little forum tip for showing plus/minus:
FYI: The \$\Omega\$ emoji is a relic from that time that can now pleasantly be substituted by the true Ω char.
Thank goodness. I remember trying a real ohm before and, although it appeared correctly in the editor, it didn't display properly in the post. The emoji just doesn't fit in well with text, especially prefixes such as MΩ.
... finally having unicode support is a blessing. I remember we had to put up a small fight, because Dave was afraid switching to unicode meant having people also write in Japanese, Russian and other languages, but we could provide enough evidence to persuade. :)
After all, writing a post that looked fine in the preview just to find the posted version missing a bunch of chars just wasn’t right.
I've been away for the summerNope.
did we lose Dr. Taylor?
I have a non-battery 8600A; but perhaps it's a good idea to check/replace the caps anyway. I'm doing a voltage reference comparison right now, but when that's done I can pop it open. Looks like the electrolytics are easily available values. Is there any value to replacing tantalum caps too? I know older HP gear has a problem with them.
QuoteI have a non-battery 8600A; but perhaps it's a good idea to check/replace the caps anyway. I'm doing a voltage reference comparison right now, but when that's done I can pop it open. Looks like the electrolytics are easily available values. Is there any value to replacing tantalum caps too? I know older HP gear has a problem with them.
I replaced the power supply filter caps in most of my AC mains-powered 8600A units. High ESR is usually the issue with these capacitors. I don't recall changing out any tantalum caps so far.
By far the most common issue with battery powered 8600A is needing to replace the 4000mAh NiCd cells.
Both line-powered and battery-powered units 8600A units often have bad connections at the large male pins that connect to the daughter cards.
Another fault I noticed recently is drifting zero offset when first powered up after several months of non-powered storage. I think this comes from leakage currents flowing through dirt on the PC board surfaces. Thorough PC board cleaning/drying seems to correct this issue.
Same caps I replaced on mine and it was resurrected almost immediately. That, plus a couple of nasty solder joints on the Ω board, were all that was keeping it from its full glory. Well, that and dirty switch contacts.
I have cleaned the big relay on mine as well, and it seems to be stable. I haven't seen any option for replacement, unlike the little reed relays.
The previous owner broke the power switch on mine as well, but he did a superb job of repairing it. Perhaps we should keep an eye out for 88xx front panels on the Bay, and accumulate a small stock of spares?
Bought an 8010A last week. Perhaps unsurprisingly everything on it worked nicely. Was sealed with last cal in 1986! Was rather grubby and horrible though. Have finished the second wave of cosmetric restoration now.
Apart from the yellowing on the case, which is expected for the age it looks like new now.
(https://i.imgur.com/zac2wlX.jpg)
And I just bought a hooky display matching 8012A to go with it :-DD
Edit: while not a massive fan of the display on these, they do the job well enough.
Conductance is the reciprocal of resistance.
Basically you can use it to measure high resistances (up to 10Gohm), leakage and semiconductor junction characteristics (pop one on a phototransistor for example). If you build the fixture described in the manual you can also measure transistor DC beta and leakage too. Pop the value in calculator and press reciprocal to get ohms back.
It makes sense to work in conductance as the scale of the values is different to ohms.
If you have the 8012A (I do) you can cal out the probe resistance on 2 wire mode and measure resistance down to 0.001 ohms which is good for tracing out board shorts due to tantalum capacitors!
Historically I used to use one with a fixture to classify bags of crappy old germanium transistors to sell to guitar pedal builders :-DD
Not bad for an old junker of a meter!
That drift could also been caused by this........
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg1974341/#msg1974341 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg1974341/#msg1974341)
Took me quite a while to track it down but it is now absolutely rock stable.
3) There are also issues with LCD displays. The display can be fuzzy or have bleeding.
3) There are also issues with LCD displays. The display can be fuzzy or have bleeding.
Thanks for the insight. I still need to read more of the posts... figured I'd go ahead and ask in the mean time.
I just received my first Fluke DMM when I went to pick up my second lab grade power supply (Heathkit IP-32).
The DMM is an 8022B with bleeding LCD. Worked fine when turned on in the cold garage to see if it even worked. Now, is consistently looking like this:
***see attached image since I haven't recalled the syntax to post in the message body yet***
I swapped the battery with an 8.4V Li rechargeable to see if lower the voltage had any effect... which it didn't.
Any advice, reference LCD units if that is all or anything else I should check?
I have a Tektronix TX3, along with the lesser featured TX1,Mark, a member here, did a video on it several years ago.
If anybody has any behind the scenes stories or just owned one, I would like to hear about it.
I thought it was legit because it was reissued as a Fluke and it is older and I think Fluke added a few new models to that series.
Kind of taking a left turn with you on the thread as this is about Flukes older meters, but as an FYI, I picked up a older Tektronix model 850 handheld DMM off ebay for $50 and shipping. I was looking for the 916 when it popped up. It has good specs, continuity beep is super fast, and I was happily surprised that it tested spot on with the DMMCheck. MrModemhead did a teardown of one here: http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/tektronix-dmm912-teardown/ (http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/tektronix-dmm912-teardown/)
John Fluke comes again in the home..
greetings
Martin
you have sold that? :)
I am collecting old scopes and Multimeters.
greetings
Martin
I'm just curious what my 8600A and 8800A sold for back in the mid 70s when they were introduced. My Google-fu is failing me today...If you have time, look through the archives of Radio Electronics Magazine. When I was doing some research, I found ads for old Fluke meters and they had prices.
you will catch the next what is comming there :)
My new desire is a russia Multimeter with electro mechanical display
Interesting. I was curious about the original prices too. Even $299 USD for a 8000A was big bucks back then. (That's almost $1600 USD in today's dollars)
That list is too early for the 8010A and 8050A which came out quite a few years later, not until the 1980's. They would be probably roughly equivalent to the 8000A and 8600A in price although the 8050A doesn't have auto ranging.
I hope that I find the leftover carry-case until when I finally get that counter ready.
Truer words never been spoken ;D, I've snagged this Fluke 8060A from the Kleinanzeigen for 15 euro coins.
.
.
Anyways, now he got his place on my desk and you could enjoy some pictures, my mains frequency it's really 50Hz ;).
I hope that I find the leftover carry-case until when I finally get that counter ready.
Truer words never been spoken ;D, I've snagged this Fluke 8060A from the Kleinanzeigen for 15 euro coins.
.
.Anyways, now he got his place on my desk and you could enjoy some pictures, my mains frequency it's really 50Hz ;).
Only when you are looking!
No, wasn't me. But I once had a 8060, whose sad demise I described somewhere here.
Was it you ? cool 8), I want that carry case (and the f-meter of course) !!!
And yes, it's a Schrödinger-ian frequency >:D
Neomys, I suspect you mean 8600 - the 8060 is newer than the 8020, which was designed by the original poster of this thread.Nope. I said that '81 is too early for an 8060. Maybe you misunderstood that 'my datecode' - I'm born 66, so it must have been '83 when it appeared.
Duh, got it. You were one of the lucky private persons that actually bought an 8060A at that time. (only a dream for me). :-+Neomys, I suspect you mean 8600 - the 8060 is newer than the 8020, which was designed by the original poster of this thread.Nope. I said that '81 is too early for an 8060. Maybe you misunderstood that 'my datecode' - I'm born 66, so it must have been '83 when it appeared.
Beautiful 8400A, Doc!
Search engines are your friend: "shrouded to unshrouded banana plug adapter converter"
Here is my Fluke 8400A.There are two basic types of such adaptors:
It still works great & I do use it on occasion.
BTW, does anyone know if there are banana plug adapters that will change the plug from the shielded type to the non shielded type?
I would like to use normal multimeter probes with the Fluke 8400A but it only accepts normal unshielded banana plug.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4896/46080708624_1e3d974b08_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dcZFfh)P1010031 (2) (https://flic.kr/p/2dcZFfh)
No worries. Glad to help out.
By the way, which options does your 8400 have?
Here is my Fluke 8400A.There are two basic types of such adaptors:
It still works great & I do use it on occasion.
BTW, does anyone know if there are banana plug adapters that will change the plug from the shielded type to the non shielded type?
I would like to use normal multimeter probes with the Fluke 8400A but it only accepts normal unshielded banana plug.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4896/46080708624_1e3d974b08_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dcZFfh)P1010031 (2) (https://flic.kr/p/2dcZFfh)
One is simply a shrouded jack inline with a unshouded plug. Most of the time they cling to the shrouded plug which is connected to them, instead of the unshrouded jack, which would be better in terms of safety. (available from SKS, Staeubli, Pomona, Fluke) A variant has the unshrouded plug fitted with a spring-loaded shroud, which is better. (Available from SKS, red only)
The other type is fitted with a spreader mechanism, which is actuated by a small set screw in the shrouded jack and it is therefore affixed reliably to the unshrouded jack on the instrument. (available from SKS and Staeubli, multiple colours)
Interesting. I was curious about the original prices too. Even $299 USD for a 8000A was big bucks back then. (That's almost $1600 USD in today's dollars)
That list is too early for the 8010A and 8050A which came out quite a few years later, not until the 1980's. They would be probably roughly equivalent to the 8000A and 8600A in price although the 8050A doesn't have auto ranging.
Dave, report your or my post to a moderator and ask nicely for them to correct your user ID....it can be fixed.Thanks, Tautech, I did.
I am relativly new to this blog, but have enjoyed the information traded here, esp the histroy of the early Fluke multimeters.There will be a dedicated thread for T&M 'parts mules' shortly. Keep looking for that and list yours then.
I, too am a bit of a meter junky. I have a good example of all but a couple of the 8020 series of meters up through the 8060s, with a few odd meters good for parts, etc. I have a few 8800As or 8810As that light up and measure but that have problems with ranging, etc. I also have some miscl buttons, knobs, etc. for 8000s and 8600s. I would happily swap the bech meters for something else. I'm not sure of the ettiquite or mechanics for swaping parts here.
Thanks again for the great information and enthusiasm.
Is it fair to assume there is still junk on the board or MAC somewhere causing the incorrect scaling? What should I look for?Did you check the bottom bung of the electrolytic caps?
Is it fair to assume there is still junk on the board or MAC somewhere causing the incorrect scaling?It might take several applications of IPA and cleaning? See
I may be able to provide some info about op-amp substitutes that work well and perhaps even improve the accuracy and stability. I own an entire shelf of 8600A and 8800A. Many different vintages. I was able to get most of them to exceed specs. It’s somewhat unusual for these op-amps to fail.
I also converted a very rough 8800A into a programmable DC preamp with extremely high input impedance and the capability to handle +/- 20V inputs. I use it as a front end for logging devices based on Raspberry Pi and/or Arduino hardware.
The image I used was of mrmodemhead. This is the plate of my multimeter. It is somewhat blurred. Sorry for my lousy EnglishYour English is far better than that worthless blurry photo !
If something works well, do not touch.
So apparently there should be no cap there ? perhaps cap compensation is elsewhere on the PCB as per Revision?
I would leave as is if the meter is working ok, and has been for years and years
I've come across gear before with blank or solder filled holes (...Dude, where's my cap?! :-// )
and just assumed they are there to solder in a component if necessary due to circuit/parts tolerances out of wack or ripple etc at assembly time
On the other hand, if it was a slimy penny pinching exercise to save .5 cents at manufacturing :palm: and THAT circuit may/would benefit with no possible harm or CAL hit,
hey, give it a go :-+
...C28 is a 10uF across the 1.2V bandgap reference. To be honest, I hadn't noticed that it disappeared at some point in the lifespan of the design. I have hardcopy documentation from 1983 and 1988.
C28 exists in the 1983 rev, but is not mentioned in the 1988 and the much-later PDFs available on-line from the Fluke archives.
If it is not in your meter then there should be no need to include it..
It's a different IC. Similar design, at least from the 8000 flukes. I think the story is that Fluke developed the original IC with Intersil as a foundry and Intersil nicked part of it and sold the ICL7xxx series and Fluke weren't happy.Yep, info all about this in posts #1 and 17 of this thread.
fluke 8060a, the 40 pins main ic could be an intersil 7106- 7107 series ??Not at all. The 8060A has 20000 counts while the 7106/07 has only 2000 counts.
The Micronta you see was my pride and joy, bought it new in '87 or '88, cost £70 which was half a weeks wage at the time, and added the shrouded sockets in '95 or so... safety first! 8-)
Just in case, I am looking at the prospect of converting one or more displays to discreet 7-segment displays with individual LEDs for the various other function indicators on the display. I got a schematic from manualslib that shows the pinout between the microprocessor and the display (see attachment). I can follow most of the pinouts except for the ones that go to other functions where two functions are apparently toggled by a single pin....look at BT and minus (-) for example. I can't figure out how to accomplish that. I hope someone can help me with this. I am pretty good at doing pcb layouts if I understand the circuit, but I'm no EE. Hopefully, Dr. Taylor can shed some light on this. Regards, Dale KS4NS
Are these old Fluke metres being used and restored for nostalgic reasons or do they actually work accurately and reliably as the new ones?
For daily uses of today's electronics workshop, would these old Fluke Meters be still reliable and good test meters compared to the new meters coming out of China sold on eBay and Amazon?
Are these old Fluke metres being used and restored for nostalgic reasons or do they actually work accurately and reliably as the new ones?
do they actually work accurately and reliably as the new ones?
do they actually work accurately and reliably as the new ones?
Yes.
Same here; generations of Flukes are still matched quite closely (8020A, 8060A, 8062A, 27/FM, 87V and 189). I would say it is quite useable by today's standards.
Yes. Back then Fluke was interested in making the best instruments possible. Period. Now they've been bought out by a bunch of bean counters and only want to maximize profits (largely based on the reputation of the meters they were building back then).
The 8060A in particular is very fast on all ranges* and does True RMS up to 200kHz. I've got two and they're bang on accurate with 0.01% resistors, 0.05% voltages, etc.
(*) These were the days when "speed" was part of the specification, the 8060A manual is full of phrases like "One second maximum to rated accuracy".
Yes well things have moved on some to the point where the Chinese can a decent bench DMM with 2.2 million counts, TRMS to 300 KHz and internal counter to 1MHz.
To clarify, the 8060A true RMS AC is rated up to 100kHz, and the frequency counter up to 200kHz. Still largely unmatched by more than a handful of DMMs, 35 years later.
Certainly so, but the 8060A is a handheld.Yes well things have moved on some to the point where the Chinese can a decent bench DMM with 2.2 million counts, TRMS to 300 KHz and internal counter to 1MHz.
To clarify, the 8060A true RMS AC is rated up to 100kHz, and the frequency counter up to 200kHz. Still largely unmatched by more than a handful of DMMs, 35 years later.
Out of all the classic vintage Fluke meters, which ones are more / most reliable, accurate and easy to repair?
I have a Fluke 25 from 1980s, it is still being used daily.
I just bought a Fluke 8000A in very poor cosmetic condition and with unknown working condition.
Will have to be tested, and repaired if needed.
8300A Nixie Fluke. Options 1+2 ( mV/Ohms card + AC card)Check them, they do give up after years.
I found a problem:
DC Test: OK
AC Test: OK
mV Test: OK
Ohms: to low + floating
dou you have a tip for me?
mV is common used with Ohm, so this part is allready working. It can be anything around the current source what is required to test resistors.
greetings from germany
Martin
edited:
Range switches kOhm:
1000 works
100 works
10 fail
1 fail
it can be interconnection, or the A3 transistor array what drives the both reed relays. on the mV Ohms card.
Member Defpom had trouble with one in his Tek 851.
for hand-helds I'm a huge fan of the 8060a (the manual is fabulous as is the additional info available thanks to Dave T!), and I also like the 80 series (particularly the 87 - but the 87-1 and 87-2/cat3 versions are easier to fix than the 87-3)
It's a toss-up which one I grab off the bench but I probably grab the 87 more just because I don't mind if I break it.
oh, and both have the same dc volts accuracy of 0.05% (except the +counts are 1 and 2 for the 87/8060)
Finally got my hands on a dead 8060a to play with. Wasn’t that dead. Turned out to be the elastomeric strip needed cleaning and it needed a new battery clip which was yanked off by the previous owner. Apart from that works fine. I’m going to do a preemptive replacement of all the capacitors shortly just so they don’t leak out everywhere and damage it. Circa 1988 model.
(https://imgur.com/Z6S5pJx.jpg)
I can see why these have such a cult following. Excellent meter all round.
Finally got my hands on a dead 8060a to play with. Wasn’t that dead.At my new job, a colleague has two of them and one newer model (the yellow ones :-DD). He uses them to measure 3 parameters at same time
Ok I did a full recap. I'll repost the content here for the sake of completeness.What brand and type of capacitors did you use? The ones listed by mr Modemhead?
...
No I used mix of nichicon and nippon chemicon ones picked by value and size from TME. Didn't look for specific capacitors. They don't have to be anything special looking at the schematics.Apart from size. Size will matter, especially the ones under the display AND if you are sourcing them from your personal stash. :D
Some questions for DRT if he is still here:
1. The 8060A release article you wrote describes a buried Zener voltage reference. The manual above says it is a bandgap voltage reference. I thought the two are slightly different. Did the design change somewhere?
2. ELectronics Australia 1990 article describes the general theory and operation of a DMM. (A great read.)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/i-need-to-know-the-history-of-fluke-87-(-1998-2010-)/msg3033264/#msg3033264 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/i-need-to-know-the-history-of-fluke-87-(-1998-2010-)/msg3033264/#msg3033264)
The generic DMM resistance function is explained as measuring the voltage using a constant current generator to derive resistance. The 8060A and 87 use a ratio compared to a reference resistor, rather than a constant current generator. I presume this simplifies the design wiithout affecting accuracy. 87 has fuse test plus 1000ohms as a sanity check, but the ratio method seens to make this an insane sanity check because it really only checks the reference resistor and voltmeter could be anywhere and fake correct resistance. Interested in your perspective.
Well, I've gotten too long winded again, ................Never !
Most of the rest of the article is pretty accurate, mostly in places where he left my writing intact. So it just goes to show you, that the technical editors are often not engineers, but particularly galling was that the final article was never offered to me or Fluke for checking.
Similar feeling here. David, your insights are quite valuable and I love hearing the stories. For others, I recommend listening to the AmpHour episode, which is filled with interesting bits.Well, I've gotten too long winded again, ................Never !
Thanks for dropping in again David and sharing with us those times you had with Fluke which if little else give us an insight and a wonderful historical record of those days.
Please carry on.
PS, ever thought about writing a book ?
Very temped to grab one of your meters.....
Can be the electrolytic capacitors in the unit have leaked as well. Common problem.
hi i have a problem with my dad's fluke 8020a. The screen is fine, it turns on and moves the points on the screen, but it does not measure anything, it is at 0 and the on-screen indicator of the BT battery is always active, please help.
-capacitors ok
-pcb clean
HELP
errr.... You mean a meter drop test
Joe Smith's DMM drop tests are the best....from the roof of his house onto concrete ! :o
Don't know which vids of his they are in but some DMM's just bounce yet others just don't ! :wtf:
Lotsa bits ! :-DD
Maybe we need a Dave drop test.
errr.... You mean a meter drop test
errr.... You mean a meter drop testDave's meter drop test. Can't remember where he went that was not a building but he dropped a fluke quite some height a few years ago.
Well I think this one will be appropriated here (Image is not mine, it is from Reddit, probably the original owner is also a user here, since he have a EEVBlog DMM) -
(https://i.imgur.com/Pc4MYwr.jpg)
Fluke 81438 or basically a rebadged Fluke 111, the first Fluke I used that was the introduction to the Fluke Brand.
Yep that's me! Bought that Fluke 15+ years ago - works great
Where can i find the recap BOM for an 8060A? or do I have to open up the unit and do it the old fashioned way ( collect the BOM information )?BOM at modemhead's website.
Think they are the same. I’ve replaced a few of both with different modules before.
See the following if you want to do it the hard way https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8010a-mains-only-conversion-and-display-replacement/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8010a-mains-only-conversion-and-display-replacement/)
Perhaps the plastic was less brittle back then.
Closer inspection looks like C36 has leaked a bit. Next step is get caps and replace them.If you haven't read through the entire thread or other 8060A threads on eevblog, the caps leak from the bottom bung so it won't be obvious by looking for the traditional obvious bloated vents at the top.
(...)based on the cockroach theory.Huh? :)
(...)based on the cockroach theory.Huh? :)
Hello. I recently bought a third-hand Fluke 8060A and I would like to have the operator's guide (digital, any shipment to Argentina is economically prohibitive :() I found one on the web but it was scanned in monochrom (https://archive.org/details/FLUKE_8060A_Operator/mode/2up)
Could someone who has an original guide scan it in 2 color pages?
I upload my Fluke 8024A guide in case someone needs it
Thank you!
Do you still need an 8060 MAC? I may have a few in my collection (I'll have to see if I can find them), but they are >30 YO. They've been in conductive foam and might still work. If I find them, I'll put them in a known good 8060 and see if they work.
Do you still need an 8060 MAC? I may have a few in my collection (I'll have to see if I can find them), but they are >30 YO. They've been in conductive foam and might still work. If I find them, I'll put them in a known good 8060 and see if they work.
(The downside of reading this thread is that I now want 8060.)
Over in the TEA thread, we've been busy buying up NOS 27CE meters from USMC stocks, complete with HV and RF probes. Links in that thread in some of the last 40 pages or so.
I have to have one. (LOL) Seriously. I've got a 23 with the RS branding, but I didn't know there was a 27. One learns something new everyday.
The 8025/25/27s are some of my favorites.
:-DMM I would offer to swap it for a RMS 27FM but I think the cost of sending them back and forth wouldn't be worth it.I thought the same thing.
As an aside, is there any difference between the 21/23 and 70 series?In most cases, it's just the color.
I also have a bunch of 70 series which includes the my Fluke meter I've had since the 80s. .
I have several 8600A's and a couple of 8050A's with the battery option that I would like to convert to line powered only and eliminate the batteries completely. Does anyone have a good line powered power supply conversion that retains the original power transformer and just involves some caps and a regulator or two? I'm sure that there are others here who are also in that sort of conversion project. Thanks!
Plot twist: No probes are connected. ;D
:-DMM I would offer to swap it for a RMS 27FM but I think the cost of sending them back and forth wouldn't be worth it.I thought the same thing.As an aside, is there any difference between the 21/23 and 70 series?In most cases, it's just the color.
Of the three 6000 (EDIT: That's wrong. They are 4000 count, not 6000) count meters, the 79 (grey) is the same as the 29. (yellow) The 76, the TRMS version, is grey; there is no yellow version.
However, there are some differences with the 3200 count models: The older 21s and the older 73s each have only one current range (as opposed to the rest of the 3200 count meters, which have the 10 A and the 300 ma ranges) but the 21 has only the 300 ma, while the 73 has only the 10A. Also, there is no yellow version of the 70 (no current measuring capability, to my knowledge) There are four versions of the grey (70, 73, 75, 77) but only two yellow versions. (21 and 23) However, only two models of grey meters were sold at the end. (70 and 73)
Yes, next step is a complete cap replacement, at a later time.
Don't delay that cap replacement too long. I thought some of mine were fine, but the capacitors in these meters tend to leak at the bottom….
I'm mostly puzzled by the fact that I can't find a C19, either in the schematic, or the parts list. There are 7 electrolytic caps in my 8060A, which matches the parts list. All the silkscreen polarities seem to be correct, though I can't see the polarity or silkscreen for C16, the 1uF tant without sucking it off the board.
The build date for my meter is going to be late 1999 or early 2000 judging by the IC date codes, with the date of the PDF 2000 or later.
I'm mostly puzzled by the fact that I can't find a C19, either in the schematic, or the parts list. There are 7 electrolytic caps in my 8060A, which matches the parts list. All the silkscreen polarities seem to be correct, though I can't see the polarity or silkscreen for C16, the 1uF tant without sucking it off the board.
The build date for my meter is going to be late 1999 or early 2000 judging by the IC date codes, with the date of the PDF 2000 or later.
In 8060A, C19 is 47uF 10V capacitor, used with U2 SC77174P, Flukes custom made TRMS converter. If your meter has Fluke's TRMS converter then C19's placement is at the lower right side of the LS1, Piezo Transducer or adjacent to the pin 1 of U2. And if your meter has AD636 TRMS converter mounted on a daughter board, C19 is not required. But if you still want to know its position, it is under the lower edge of that daughter board.
Make me want to buy a 8060a to go with my Simpson 260.
Holey moley! Your post prompted me to look at eBay for 8060A and the prices are in the hundreds of dollars from insane sellers! Sure the actually sold items are much lower priced (US, though).Make me want to buy a 8060a to go with my Simpson 260.
You'll find them on the 'Bay for about $100 from Israel. My personal record is 150 SEK, for one that turned out to be in excellent shape. Before that I'd bought one from USA for about $75, which was OK. But not fantastic.
Sure the actually sold items are much lower priced (US, though).
Aluminium electrolytic ; 22 µF/16V ; 105°C 5000hr ; Ø5mmx8mm for the main characterics ... but I'm just unable to think about others specs like ripple current, impedance etc.
How about Panasonic's OSCON Organic Aluminum Caps. Very low ESR. I have used them in high volume production with very good results. No failures or issues in 10 years of service in an industrial environment.Solid polymer electrolytics have high leakage. Not ideal for measurement instruments.
Hi to all 8060 fans! I have recently completed restoring and recapping 15 8060A Multimeters
Solid Polymer Capacitors actually perform better in most Electrolytic locations in the 8060A. Leakage does not come into play when the caps are being used in power supply filters and the charge pump. The charge pump in the 8060 performs better with polymers. The only place I would say that the leakage could possibly be an issue would be in the TRMS converter. Note, I'm referring to the original TRMS circuit designed by Fluke, not the later ones using an Analog devices chip. The AC output filter C17 is indeed in the signal path, but with a source impedance of less than 20k, the leakage would not cause a discernible error. C18 and C19 could also be affected by leakage. Also realize that Polymer Electrolytics leakage is measured at full voltage, and high temperature. I don't think you'd have an issue. That being said, low leakage standard aluminum electrolytics work fine in all the locations in the 8060A. I'd use polymers in the charge pump circuit as this does show some improvement at the noise floor. Still compared to the caps we had available in the early 1980s, current caps are superior, as long as you pick a reputable manufacturer. I tend to specify 105deg (or higher) 5000hr rated caps for reliability. So, while I do agree that Polymer Electrolytics should be avoided in the signal path of high resolution measurement equipment, you cannot make a blanket statement that they should be avoided. Just don't use them as a filter in a circuit with a high value source impedance.How about Panasonic's OSCON Organic Aluminum Caps. Very low ESR. I have used them in high volume production with very good results. No failures or issues in 10 years of service in an industrial environment.Solid polymer electrolytics have high leakage. Not ideal for measurement instruments.
...that foam contact matrix or mesh or whatever it is.
Ok, so I cracked open my two Flukes:
The 8060A (serial number 4245166) has a Siemens orange capacitor (!) that I replaced a few years ago - either I had nothing better on hand or had a mental fart. Negative points to the display, therefore I suspect I followed my golden rule to never trust the silk screen (I have been bitten before).
The 8062A (serial number 4210192) has the original yellow capacitor. Negative also points to the display. I will replace and, in the light of all this, I will probably keep the assembled polarity instead of the silk/schematics one. Not only there is a chance the bias voltage is too small to make a difference, but the weight of 30, 35 years of continuous operation without fail are enough for me to make a decision.
the orientation of C19 seems to have been variously discussed for years. has anyone hooked up a scope across the cap and checked what sort and polarity of signal is presented to it in actual use?
I have 3 fluke dmms 8010a, 8012a and 8050a, all working good in all functions except diodes check, all show higher than normal readings, any idea? All with 1n4148 under test.
Best regards.
Pio
I have 3 fluke dmms 8010a, 8012a and 8050a, all working good in all functions except diodes check, all show higher than normal readings, any idea? All with 1n4148 under test.
I have 3 fluke dmms 8010a, 8012a and 8050a, all working good in all functions except diodes check, all show higher than normal readings, any idea? All with 1n4148 under test.
What do you get if you use the 200K range instead of the 2K range for the diode check?
Perhaps replacing it with a non-polar capacitor would take the confusion away.The caps which I would use are 47µF@25V X7R 2220 TDK transformed in THD, which have practically no capacity loss between 0-5V; best of all, it fits.
16.93 kohm
Designation | Original value | EL Supply P/N | Pin spacing | Diameter | Height | Description |
C1,C23,C24,C32,C34 | 100UF 6.3V | 211D3101L | 2.54 | 6.40 | 7.80 | RND Components 100UF 16V 105deg |
C12,C21,C28 | 10UF 16V | 211E2101L | 2.00 | 4.00 | 7.50 | JAMICON SS 10UF 35V 85deg |
C36 | 22UF 16V | 211E2221L | 2.54 | 5.00 | 7.50 | JAMICON SS 22UF 35V 85deg |
C19 | 47UF 10V | 211D2472 | 2.00 | 5.00 | 7.00 | RND components 47UF 16V 105deg |
I have a 8000A I bought many years ago, it never powered up and I put it in storage for almost 4 years. I finally got to work on it, and found out the transformer T1 is open on the primary side. Rather than trying to repair the transformer, do any of you know if there is a modern day direct fit replacement? It is 115V version of the meter.
Thanks.
Great suggestion, that was my next step. My 3631A, which I never use, may be ideal for the job. While the +5V is quite clear, any suggestion where the +15 and -15 should be connected to on the board?
On my unit, SB1 to SB3 is wide open, that's what led me to think the primary failed.
In the mean time, I will also power it up with a bench supply to make sure the rest of the meter is working correctly. Does applying +/- 19-20V at cap C17 and C18 seem to be there consensus?
Great point, I will give that a try. It is a US model, it would be nice to be able to revive it after all these years if it is just the transformer. As along as I can find a replacement.
I wonder if a power surge might have done the damage to it. The meter is pristine otherwise, I had to break the original Fluke stickers at the screw to open it.
As along as I can find a replacement.
...
I also have a few interesting capacitors, but the most interesting is from the U3 set, a 0.22uF hermetically sealed type that I couldn't identify. It has a similar appearance to the integrating capacitors used in other models, but here it is used as part of the circuit that sets the period for U3. The manual just calls it "Capacitor, poly". It is labelled "MIDWEC M8-26 .22uF +/-5% 50VDC 415". I haven't found type M8, although other Midwec offerings seem to have been polypropylene. Any ideas?
. It's not likely I could fix all because there are parts missing, and displays for the 8020 variants are a problem even if I could make them all work. I have one 8020 display that works, one that is completely missing, and the rest are unknown but don't look very good.
In recent times a friend of mine bought a 3d printer and.... we can make buttons! Maybe not quite the right colors yet, but I am working on that. I keep getting closer. I drug out all the piano key flukes. Most of the ones that had been so good no longer worked. That was kind of a bummer, but since buttons could be made, and potentially battery doors and stands too, I decided to take it further and try to fix all of them.
. It's not likely I could fix all because there are parts missing, and displays for the 8020 variants are a problem even if I could make them all work. I have one 8020 display that works, one that is completely missing, and the rest are unknown but don't look very good.
I know EXACTLY what you are talking about.
I printed a battery door for my 8060A out of white PLA, with an stl file from thingiverse. It works very well indeed.
Is there a way to change the frequency of the 8060A's continuity beeper? It's 2670Hz which is my hearing loss notch. I can't hear it unless I hold the meter right against my ear, which makes continuity test unusable.
I checked my C19 candidates at room temperature. I only tested one sample of each type. Charge one hour at 10V, measure leakage with a 10 Meg meter, discharge 10 seconds, record peak voltage to estimate DA.
Nichicon UKL1E470KEDANA is 9nA and 0.19V (1.9% DA), Chemi-Con ELE-350ELL470MF11D is 5nA and 0.27V (2.7%), Murata ceramic RDEC71E476MWK1H03B is 25nA and 0.70V (7%) - to my surprise, it's the worst as well as the most expensive.
I don't see what I left out, except possibly the well-known trick of using a voltmeter with known resistance to measure small currents. I put the meter in series with power supply and DUT and let the meter's input resistance be the ammeter shunt. With a 10 Meg meter, 10mV is 1nA. Since I had three DUTs in play, I used three meters, a Fluke 8000A, a Fluke 8100B, and a Monsanto 2000. After measuring the leakage, I shorted the meters. Then I turned off the power supply, which has a few kilohms of bleed at the terminals, and after 10 seconds I pulled off the meter shorts and watched the readings go negative, level off, and fall.
It was quite a surprise to see the ceramic cap perform worse than the electrolytics!