Author Topic: Old Fluke Multimeters  (Read 229386 times)

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Offline tautech

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #350 on: August 10, 2017, 01:22:33 am »
From his profile:
Last Active: Today at 11:13:07 AM (NZ time)

So I'm just not in the right threads.  :D
He'll spot your question, the longest I've seen him take to reply is a week or so and you probably won't have your 8060A by then anyway.

Good score BTW.  :)
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #351 on: August 10, 2017, 01:23:28 am »
Yay, ditched the 5 dollar Wun Hung Tu Lo clay pigeon shoot targets   :clap:   and got a real meter huh?   :popcorn:

Good news and bad news:

If you scored a late 1990s model, it may have the good Nichicon caps already, so the meter is good to go once you verify the specs are ok.

If not, get ready to order a cap set, and prep for a thorough cap spew board clean up.  :-[

Get some quality super glue too, the plastic screw posts may be cracking and fragmenting by now, and need sorting out.

The 14 pages of top info here should be enough to get the ball rolling and parts required, calling Mr Modemhead? 

http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/ibm-8060aaa-fluke-8060a-refurbish/

This meter is not a straightforward Fluke to pull apart, so be really analytic and careful,
especially when removing/prying up from right to left the internal adjustments shield held by one hidden screw around the middle somewhere.

Warm the meter up a bit with a hairdryer or whatever so plastic bits don't break   |O

...and welcome to the unofficial Fluke 8060A Club     :-+
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 01:32:06 am by Electro Detective »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #352 on: August 10, 2017, 01:25:03 am »
Ah, I have not listened to that episode. I'll have to do that.

https://theamphour.com/180-an-interview-with-dave-taylor-multi-talented-meter-maker/

I still look forward to buying one of Dr. T's 8060s in due course.

Not just any old 8060A for you, eh?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 01:43:48 am by Fungus »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #353 on: August 10, 2017, 01:32:12 am »
If you scored a late 1990s model, it may have the good Nichicon caps already, so the meter is good to go once you verify the specs are ok.

That would be good! I really have no idea what vintage it is. Fingers crossed, then.

One thing I've been wondering about is how long these things were on sale. They were launched in 1982 but it seems they were making them well into the 1990s. That's impressive.

Yay, ditched the 5 dollar Wun Hung Tu Lo clay shoot targets and got a real meter huh?

I'm gonna need something to measure capacitance and take to Arduino club.  :popcorn:

...and welcome to the unofficial Fluke 8060A Club     :-+

I've also joined the TEA thread.
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #354 on: August 10, 2017, 03:13:38 am »
https://theamphour.com/180-an-interview-with-dave-taylor-multi-talented-meter-maker/

Thanks for the link!

I still look forward to buying one of Dr. T's 8060s in due course.

Not just any old 8060A for you, eh?

Got to keep the GAS under control somehow.  :-DD
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Offline drtaylor

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #355 on: August 10, 2017, 04:02:35 am »
I just started work on my 8060A restoration project. I have the 8060s from the eBay auction and a few of my own to fix up. My lab is all set up for a production line operation for 15 8060s and one 8062. I'm keeping notes on each one, condition, functional, rev of the assembly and PCB. Several were fully functional. A few just need their LCD connections cleaned. A few turned on but have obvious problems. Only 1 was completely DOA. Only 1 had plating on the LCD, but it was the 8062. Regardless if they were fully functional, I am recapping all of them. I am also cleaning the two elastomeric connectors, the carbon one for the LCD, and the silver filled one that connects the SM4 to the MAC. Also cleaning the PCB patterns that contact the elastomerics.

My process is to take them all apart. Remove the uC assembly. Remove all the loose plastic parts. Then using my $5 Pace MTM100 (Auction at my former company...what a great thing to have), I'm removing all the electrolytic caps. Most came out easily with a application of flux then using the hollow sucking head of the Pace rework station. The ones that were corroded gave more problems, but I managed to get them out with not too much damage. I used all the tricks of the trade, solder sucker (Edsyn), solder wick, and so on. I've gotten through 9 so far.

After the caps are out, I cleaned the boards thoroughly with 99.9% IPA and an acid brush. Then soaked the whole PCA in a glass tray with clean IPA. Then another acid brush scrub and blowing out the IPA with a low heat air gun. Then I put the cleaned assembly aside to dry for a few more hours. I've only recapped three so far for testing. They got a similar cleaning process after the new caps were put in.

As far as the replacement caps, I've decided to use Polymer Aluminums. These have the advantage of lower ESR and higher ripple current (not really necessary for the 8060), but best of all, due to the organic polymer, they will not spew electrolyte. These 8060s should last for another 30 years. I only had one value I could not fit physically in the position. So I went with the Nichicon UTT for the 22uF/16V part. All the rest are Nichicon RS, RNS or RNU types.

All these parts are in stock at Mouser. These all fit the physical diameter, height, and lead pitch of the 8060A PCB. They do have much higher leakage current on paper, but in practice and at the voltages used, the effect on battery life should be minimal. I've got three units recapped now and ready for testing. I will publish the list later after I'm sure there is no ill effect from the added leakage current. But I do think that will not matter. I'm actually hoping the RMS noise floor will be improved with the new 7660 caps.

I've contacted an old friend at Fluke to see if I can use a calibrator so I can tweak them in. I can calibrate the DC ranges with what I have, but I do not have an accurate AC source at 10kHz which is required to trim the AC freq flatness. There's a real possibility that Fluke has policies against this, but my friend is actually the marketing manager for the Calibration group. SO I'm crossing my fingers on that. If I'm unable to trim the AC, I will let prospective buyers know.

In a side note, one of my 8060s is really a prototype unit. It has a ceramic MAC chip, the RMS converter in a socket, and it has several kludges. The constant current output uses a LM334 and a couple of bodged resistors. There's also a couple of jumpers. This very likely is the oldest 8060 around as it is clear I was still fooling with it. My IBM version 8060A also is an early version, with two jumpers, but it has worked well for years. Most of the eBay units were mid to late 80s with a board rev of H and an assembly rev of H. Some were labeled Rev H-1. No idea what the difference was. I did not get any of the late production units that subbed the Analog Device TRMS chip on a daughter board. All have the Fluke designed Motorola BiFet TRMS converters.

I'm done with my G-Job for now, so I hope to finish these up in a couple of weeks. I'll report progress soon.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 04:08:33 am by drtaylor »
 

Offline WastelandTek

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #356 on: August 10, 2017, 04:19:34 am »
a couple pics of your production line would be really neat to see doc
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #357 on: August 10, 2017, 09:44:28 am »
I just started work on my 8060A restoration project. I have the 8060s from the eBay auction and a few of my own to fix up. My lab is all set up for a production line operation for 15 8060s and one 8062. I'm keeping notes on each one, condition, functional, rev of the assembly and PCB. Several were fully functional.

 :-+

A few just need their LCD connections cleaned. A few turned on but have obvious problems. Only 1 was completely DOA. Only 1 had plating on the LCD, but it was the 8062. Regardless if they were fully functional, I am recapping all of them. I am also cleaning the two elastomeric connectors, the carbon one for the LCD, and the silver filled one that connects the SM4 to the MAC. Also cleaning the PCB patterns that contact the elastomerics.

I would be good to know how to clean LCD connections, elastomeric connectors, etc. Those things scare me.

I only ever took one important LCD apart and the rubber was stuck to the glass really hard. I worried about ripping tracks off the LCD's glass or something. Is that possible?

It all worked out in the end and the faded digits came back to life after I put it back together. I had no idea what I was doing at the time though and I always wonder how close I was to destroying the device.

Also: Are zebra connectors completely generic? ie. If a connector is rotten can you simply replace it with another one of the right size or do they have internal tracks with spacings that need to be matched up?

Let's see if I can find anything on LCD repairs while I'm waiting for the meter to arrive...

« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 02:00:21 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #358 on: August 10, 2017, 02:28:07 pm »
I would be good to know how to clean LCD connections, elastomeric connectors, etc. Those things scare me.

I only ever took one important LCD apart and the rubber was stuck to the glass really hard. I worried about ripping tracks off the LCD's glass or something. Is that possible?

It all worked out in the end and the faded digits came back to life after I put it back together. I had no idea what I was doing at the time though and I always wonder how close I was to destroying the device.

Also: Are zebra connectors completely generic? ie. If a connector is rotten can you simply replace it with another one of the right size or do they have internal tracks with spacings that need to be matched up?

AFAIK the rubber zebra stripes are just 1-1 conducting strips, meaning generic replacements of the same width should do the job. They consist of conductive and non-conductive strips in an alternating arrangement (usually black being the conductive component). I fully remove the zebra stripe and clean its both conductive surfaces with rubbing alcohol as well as the PCB contacts (might need so additional treatment because of corrosion) and the glass contact area of the LCD. Never had a problem with that :)
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #359 on: August 10, 2017, 06:36:03 pm »
I only had peripheral contact with the 8050. It used a discrete analog dual slope converter with a custom controller IC. Getting that circuit working well was a trial for the designer. So the 8050 was still a dumb design, no software, and therefore only slightly related to the 8060. I remember studying its circuitry carefully while designing the 8060. I knew the 8050 input design would never support wideband AC readings, so I pretty much went my own way on the input structure of the 8060.

I was thinking about looking for an 8050A to go with my 8060A. It's a teeny bit more accurate and I assumed they were related. Now I'm not so sure. Maybe I should get another 8060A instead. It's the one true meter.

PS: I didn't know the blue IBM meters were rare collectors items. There was a very nice one on eBay last week that went cheap(ish) but I didn't buy it because I wanted a real Fluke, none of that IBM rubbish.  :-DD

 

Offline tautech

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #360 on: August 10, 2017, 06:55:36 pm »
I would be good to know how to clean LCD connections, elastomeric connectors, etc. Those things scare me.
I'm fairly sure you can find all you need here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/vintageclassic-renovation-techniques/
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Offline retiredcaps

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #361 on: August 10, 2017, 06:57:49 pm »
I would be good to know how to clean LCD connections, elastomeric connectors, etc. Those things scare me.
I'm fairly sure you can find all you need here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/vintageclassic-renovation-techniques/
Modemhead documents it for the Fluke 87.

http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/fluke-8x-faded-lcd/
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #362 on: August 10, 2017, 08:09:58 pm »
Modemhead documents it for the Fluke 87.

Quote
Very slowly and carefully pull the connectors from the glass.  It should help to rock them from side to side to break the seal.  The key is to not tear the connectors, which is another way to ruin your day. The connectors are not glued on

Yeah, that sounds like my previous experience. It felt like they were glued to the glass, that I was about to destroy something important.

Still, the digits on my new 8060A look perfect in the photos so I hope that won't be necessary. Filed for future reference.

(and I'm stocking up on 99% IPA and cotton buds - seems like they belong in the same toolbox as the WD40 and Duct Tape)


« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 08:15:46 pm by Fungus »
 

Online bd139

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #363 on: August 10, 2017, 09:10:19 pm »
I only had peripheral contact with the 8050. It used a discrete analog dual slope converter with a custom controller IC. Getting that circuit working well was a trial for the designer. So the 8050 was still a dumb design, no software, and therefore only slightly related to the 8060. I remember studying its circuitry carefully while designing the 8060. I knew the 8050 input design would never support wideband AC readings, so I pretty much went my own way on the input structure of the 8060.

I was thinking about looking for an 8050A to go with my 8060A. It's a teeny bit more accurate and I assumed they were related. Now I'm not so sure. Maybe I should get another 8060A instead. It's the one true meter.

They're not at all related. If I had to pick between then I'd pick one of each.

AFAIK there's some software in it. The IC is a Mostek one rather than a Fluke ASIC and it supports similar dB functionality into defined impedances. The only thing it's missing that I don't really like is audible continuity but I've got an 8024 floating around for that.

An 8050A, the 8600A, an 8024B and (I'll get shot on this thread) a Uni-T UT61-E are my daily drivers :)

I've got an 8010A and a 8021A I don't use floating around but the display is on its way out on the 8010A and I don't fancy the heavy lifting replacing it although it appears to be the same part as the 8021's display. Hmm frankenmeter time.

I think I just found I have a Fluke problem
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #364 on: August 10, 2017, 09:32:01 pm »
I think I just found I have a Fluke problem

Nah. GAS works with any brand. ;D
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Offline drtaylor

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #365 on: August 10, 2017, 10:20:30 pm »

AFAIK there's some software in it. The IC is a Mostek one rather than a Fluke ASIC and it supports similar dB functionality into defined impedances. The only thing it's missing that I don't really like is audible continuity but I've got an 8024 floating around for that.

The controller IC in the 8050 is a fully custom IC with A/D state machine control and if I remember correctly, the dB conversion was table driven with segment curve fitting. No software! This same approach was used on the 8920 TRMS Voltmeter, again no software. In the late 70s, high end system DMMs were being made with early uC and uP chips. There was an engineering manager at the time that was fighting against putting that new-fangled Microprocessor stuff into precision instruments. He was demoted in favor of a more forward thinker. The 8060A was notable as the first handheld that had a processor in it. It came out about a year after the 8050. I sat right next to the 8050 design team, but again, I had nothing to do with the 8050 design. I was finishing up my modest contribution to the 8920-8921 right before starting work on the 8060.
 
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Online bd139

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #366 on: August 10, 2017, 10:30:59 pm »
Ugh that's horrible if it's state machine driven. I bet that was a ball ache getting that debugged.
 

Offline lowimpedance

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #367 on: August 10, 2017, 11:52:48 pm »
In a side note, one of my 8060s is really a prototype unit. It has a ceramic MAC chip, the RMS converter in a socket, and it has several kludges. The constant current output uses a LM334 and a couple of bodged resistors. There's also a couple of jumpers. This very likely is the oldest 8060 around as it is clear I was still fooling with it.
Would be a nice addition to the thread to see some pictures of the proto. unit insides  :) , (as time permits of course).
The odd multimeter or 2 or 3 or 4...or........can't remember !.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #368 on: August 11, 2017, 03:56:12 pm »
My 8060A arrived today!

It seems to work perfectly, it's all in spec as far as my humble volts/ohms/amps references can tell (I'm going to need better references now >:D )

I took it apart to find a date code, etc. I got PCB revision J, date on main chip is week 30, 1989.

As far as I can tell the capacitors aren't Nichicon and look suitably numerous and fiddly to replace. :(  I'm going to leave that job for now.

The self tappers holding the case together were very stiff. Getting the case back together firmly was impossible, the screws were so stiff it felt like I was going to break something. I put a tiny amount of olive oil on the screws and they went in like a dream. Hint: Here in Spain we use olive oil for everything, put some in your toolbox.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 05:11:49 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline drtaylor

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #369 on: August 11, 2017, 04:06:41 pm »
I took it apart to find a date code, etc. I got PCB revision J, date on main chip is week 30, 1989.

As far as I can tell the capacitors aren't Nichicon and look suitably numerous and very fiddly to replace.  :(  I'm going to leave that job for now.

Hi Fungus, Sounds like you got a good one. Rev J was done after I left Fluke. Really makes me want to see the Rev History. As I mentioned earlier, I have mostly PCB Rev H and PCA Rev H. Rev J would be one revision newer as Fluke and most companies skip "I" due to possibility of confusion with "1". If you don't replace the Caps, you could be in for trouble later. I'd use a magnifier and look carefully around the bottoms of all the Alum Caps for any signs of electrolyte leakage (but it may be there anyway and you won't see it). Your caps are >20 years old. But if it works...
 

Offline kalel

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #370 on: August 11, 2017, 04:17:39 pm »
Being a newbie to electronics (have not had a chance to own or repair many old things), I wonder if you changed all of the capacitors on a device that has many, and went with high quality branded replacements, would it be costly comparing to the device itself?

Then, probably some things like potentiometers cost even more if you go for high quality.

Of course, for professional restorations or service repair this is different, as they either want the thing in perfect condition for a collection or charge for their work and parts.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #371 on: August 11, 2017, 04:25:09 pm »
I took it apart to find a date code, etc. I got PCB revision J, date on main chip is week 30, 1989.

As far as I can tell the capacitors aren't Nichicon and look suitably numerous and very fiddly to replace.  :(  I'm going to leave that job for now.
Hi Fungus, Sounds like you got a good one.

:-)

Rev J was done after I left Fluke. Really makes me want to see the Rev History. As I mentioned earlier, I have mostly PCB Rev H and PCA Rev H. Rev J would be one revision newer as Fluke and most companies skip "I" due to possibility of confusion with "1".

I could take some pics of the PCB, etc., if you think that would help. I imagine most changes would be to reduce costs though, not to change functionality.

If you don't replace the Caps, you could be in for trouble later. I'd use a magnifier and look carefully around the bottoms of all the Alum Caps for any signs of electrolyte leakage (but it may be there anyway and you won't see it). Your caps are >20 years old. But if it works...

Coming up to 30 years old...

I'll inspect them and look into replacing them when I get the chance. I want to put it through its paces first.

 

Offline helius

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #372 on: August 11, 2017, 05:33:51 pm »
Being a newbie to electronics (have not had a chance to own or repair many old things), I wonder if you changed all of the capacitors on a device that has many, and went with high quality branded replacements, would it be costly comparing to the device itself?
It depends on what types of capacitors were specified. Radial aluminum electrolytics of high quality are not expensive. From 20 cents for 10 uF to a couple dollars for 1000 uF in small quantities. The axial and screw-mount types are more expensive, and locating extra low leakage parts can be a challenge. Wet tantalum capacitors are outrageously expensive (found in Tektronix gear, not only military equipment).

Quote
Then, probably some things like potentiometers cost even more if you go for high quality.
Again, it depends on the type. Cermet trimmers (for calibration, unaccessible with the case closed) of high quality are less than a dollar each for most ranges. On the other hand, 10-turn geared potentiometers are fairly expensive.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #373 on: August 11, 2017, 06:43:10 pm »
I like all the 8060A power-on self tests for the switches and buttons, etc.   :)

8V output in diode test mode.  :)

It's smaller than I expected.  :) :)

One of the little black rubber feet underneath is turning to goo and came off (stuck to the table).   >:(
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 06:58:35 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #374 on: August 11, 2017, 11:24:22 pm »
I like all the 8060A power-on self tests for the switches and buttons, etc.   :)

If it 'ever' fails on the power up due to a measuring mishap/blunder, try restarting,
or if no go pull the battery, work all the switches and power switch, refit battery and try again.
This has happened to me twice, and it wasn't the meter's fault.. I had the wrong setting/overconfidentnewbsyndrome   |O


8V output in diode test mode.  :)

With the right LED stuck to the side of the meter, probe up a handy torch light when the zombies cut the lab power   ;D


One of the little black rubber feet underneath is turning to goo and came off (stuck to the table).   >:(

Love at first sight   :-*  the meter wants to stay   :clap:


It's smaller than I expected.  :) :)

Pimp it up !    8)       see my DIY below  :-DMM 



« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 01:52:55 am by Electro Detective »
 


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