Author Topic: Old Fluke Multimeters  (Read 230064 times)

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Offline retiredcaps

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #400 on: August 17, 2017, 05:40:44 pm »
Epoxy worked for me.
Modemhead has  a few documented cases at

http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/beckman-industrial-hd140-multimeter/

http://mrmodemhead.com/blog/beckman-industrial-hd110-multimeter/

He does similar fixes for the Fluke 70 series I and II, but they are not publicly documented.
 

Offline yo0

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #401 on: August 17, 2017, 06:20:18 pm »
Disaster!

I was putting the lid back on the meter and one of the screw posts broke off. I was being as gentle as I could, etc., but I guess the plastic is getting old and I don't know what previous owner-gorillas have done to it in the past.

On careful inspection I also noticed a crack in the other screw post down near the bottom.

I don't think the one near the bottom is going anywhere because it's pressed between the input jacks. The one at the top, though? It's gone.

I has a sad.  :(

What now? Epoxy?





What I would do in this situation is get the Dremel out with a tiny round die grinder tip and rough up the surface around the break, being careful not to mar the actual broken surface.  I would use cyanoacrilate to stick the part back on, then bury the whole roughed up area with JB-weld

another option is cyanoacrilate and baking soda, really strong reinforcement. always works for me. you can reconstruct pieces with missing parts even, a bit of labor cause yo need apply both ingredients in alternate way (layers), i put a good drop of cyanoacrilate in a piece of glass, and grab a tiny amount with a jewerly flat screewdriver then baking soda till you obtain the needed volume and form,  you can sand, drill the resultant rock.

best regards

Pio
 
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Offline WastelandTek

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #402 on: August 17, 2017, 06:56:25 pm »

another option is cyanoacrilate and baking soda, really strong reinforcement. always works for me. you can reconstruct pieces with missing parts even, a bit of labor cause yo need apply both ingredients in alternate way (layers), i put a good drop of cyanoacrilate in a piece of glass, and grab a tiny amount with a jewerly flat screewdriver then baking soda till you obtain the needed volume and form,  you can sand, drill the resultant rock.

best regards

Pio

yeah, I have used the cyanoacrilate/baking soda trick too, the resultant matter is hard indeed, good call
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #403 on: August 17, 2017, 10:38:03 pm »
Identical cracks on mine too, some pics to help with the group pain therapy    :'(  :'(  :'(

As pictured I have secured the bits with electrical tape as a quick n dirty temp measure to not lose the bits
and will do the Super Glue/epoxy/magic spell thing (or better recommended alternative) when I get some free  -fiddly job-  brain space time 

Hey guys, it's not a deal breaker, 8060A wasn't built to be like a Fluke 28-11 ordeal meter.   >:D
In a pinch put some duck/duct tap around the edges and wack it in a rubber holster (preferably YELLOW)  if you want to upgrade it's field durability (and Flukey pro meter vibe)  :-DMM

87 mk1  and others have the same cracks too, and certainly can't be related to how many times you unscrew the item or whatever, 

I've done about 6 battery changes on both meters over the years, taking care putting the screws back as they were originally orientated
and to not stuff up the internal thread cut into the silly plastic joke posts.


The 289 has the same plastic post BS, the small black battery section retaining screw has already turned into an asteroid field    >:(


It must be a Fluke plastics thing, because the same vintage Taiwan made meters by competitor brands have not cracked (yet)    :phew:

Continuing to use sharp metal self tapping screws into flimsy thin plastic posts from the 1980s till recently, on EXPENSIVE professional and industrial Cat rated meters,
severely compromising their containment strength in an unfortunate  -meter blowout-  scenario, as shown in the scare tactic 'marketing' videos   :scared:     is  D U H City...    :palm: :palm:

and worthy of a few consecutive  -Dumbass Design Awards-   :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 08:02:02 am by Electro Detective »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #404 on: August 18, 2017, 08:20:04 am »
After I stick the post back (method undecided until I experiment) I'm thinking about binding the two posts at the top to the side of the case with epoxy for future support.

I'm guessing DrT didn't design the case.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 08:21:54 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #405 on: August 18, 2017, 08:47:14 am »
Don't get too creative on any renovation work before confirming the case will still close, it's a tight ship in there

 

Online Fungus

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #406 on: August 18, 2017, 09:37:52 am »
Don't get too creative on any renovation work before confirming the case will still close, it's a tight ship in there

Yeah, yeah. I'm checking that carefully. The ones at the top have quite a lot of free space towards the side of the case. On the opposite side I need to stay below the level of the button holder and avoid the corner of the screen. There's a lot of reinforcement to be had though.

The screw post at the bottom has almost no space at all around it. I might rough it up a bit and put a thin layer of epoxy to fill/reinforce the crack.

The silver linings are that thanks to the missing post I can rough up the side of the case really well to take the glue and those little plastic rings around the top of the posts will make sure it all aligns correctly while the glue sets.


 

Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #407 on: August 18, 2017, 09:59:09 am »
If you really want to toughen it up, do not only use 2-comp epoxy, but also some glass fiber. That way you do not really need a lot of epoxy (thus no problems regarding space in the housing) and it will be much tougher than a big blob of epoxy.
You should get small pieces of glass fiber cloth or ribbon in the hardware store / hobby store.
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Online Fungus

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #408 on: August 18, 2017, 11:42:19 am »

another option is cyanoacrilate and baking soda, really strong reinforcement. always works for me. you can reconstruct pieces with missing parts even, a bit of labor cause yo need apply both ingredients in alternate way (layers), i put a good drop of cyanoacrilate in a piece of glass, and grab a tiny amount with a jewerly flat screewdriver then baking soda till you obtain the needed volume and form,  you can sand, drill the resultant rock.
yeah, I have used the cyanoacrilate/baking soda trick too, the resultant matter is hard indeed, good call

I'm just researching this. It's one of Adam Savage's recommended tricks.

I just did an experiment with a tube of glue and a pile of baking soda on some paper and I like the result. I want to play with glue/soda ratios, find some similar plastics and see how well it sticks, etc. I'm going to need some more glue...

I'll also do some experiments with different epoxys before I decide. Epoxy + fiberglass might be best. It mostly depends on what sticks best to the plastic.

Lots of things to consider/experiment with. No hurry though, I don't mind leaving the screws out for a while.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 02:08:09 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #409 on: August 18, 2017, 11:11:54 pm »
Some doubled up good quality electrical or duct tape along the sides will keep it together in the meantime and do a better job than the flimsy cracked posts

A pair of thick re-usable cable ties works too in a pinch, if you don't care about looks     ::)    the meter will still rock   :-+

Excluding the Fluke 8060A because it's a way back model, it's preposterous Fluke still flog their Cat safety BS on many of their cracked screw post meters in later 'modern' meters
which are no longer secured together to contain the  -BLASTS-  they boast about 

much less survive a good drop which would split the meter in two..make that three or more counting the flying circuit board and fuses     :palm:

I use and endorse some of their gear, but this is one big fluke up they need to address asap

I've been taping up the sides of my Flukes for years to reinforce the cracked post BS, a necessary 'safety upgrade' hard to spot once the yellow holster is on,

I don't know what the long term gripping strength of any glues vs Fluke plastics is going to be,

nor do I want to mess with the meter structural insides, which gives Fluke a back door to get out of their responsibility in case the meter fails,

i.e. your Defense can tell the Judge and Jury in court, that electrical tape on a flimsy manufactured hyped Safety rated meter is not a 'modification' 
nor a practice specifically recommended against by the meter manufacturer in the user manual, packaging, advertising, or otherwise   

whilst you discretely display The Finger to the Prosecution vipers     >:D



« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 09:21:32 pm by Electro Detective »
 

Online bd139

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #410 on: August 19, 2017, 10:38:50 am »
Great tip with the bicarb and cyanoacrylate. I tried it with loctite gel and it actually comes out pretty amazing. I was partially expecting it to catch fire (try pouring it on cotton wool) but nope, nice fast setting filler!  :-+

Just as a note there are two subtle differences between bicarb and baking powder. The latter has something in it that smells funky. I avoided using that!
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 10:40:47 am by bd139 »
 

Offline martinr33

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #411 on: August 20, 2017, 05:11:06 am »
For a thermoplastic (which the Fluke cases likely are) you should use a plastic welding adhesive. This stuff is super thin, and crawls into the gap between the parts. It fuses the pieces back together, and is very strong. The bond is better than epoxy. Hard to get because of the chemicals, but take a look at this:

https://eugenetoyandhobby.com/shop/stuff-liquid-plastic-welder-micro-mark-84113/?gclid=CjwKCAjww9_MBRAWEiwAlaMJZrK8vJzslcoB6mx1iejZzsUDGF7rxTPqElnGxT62777UFlchYkBlHhoC8-QQAvD_BwE
 
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Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #412 on: August 20, 2017, 12:13:19 pm »
Does anyone know exactly what type / blend of plastic is used for the 8060 / 8020 / ... cases? ABS sounds plausible, but there are no markings (at least in the units I had on my bench) and it can well be a lot of different plastics.
ABS can be weld-bonded with dichloromethane or MEK. Structural stabilization with epoxy and some glass fiber would still be my recommendation after fixing the pieces in place.
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Online Fungus

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #413 on: August 20, 2017, 06:29:09 pm »
Just as a note there are two subtle differences between bicarb and baking powder.

They're completely different things.

The choice of glue seems important. Loctite professional is the way to go according to several web sites.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #414 on: August 20, 2017, 09:40:09 pm »
I prefer to let Fluke bean counters get experimental glue combos all over their manicured dishpan hands   >:(

and perform plastics 'research' for their current and next gen meters.

..and in the meantime send all us Fluke fanboy/user/customers  (and possible future customers)   replacement chassis with threaded metal inserts

for our recent model -Cat Crippled- meters


Some of us customers have real work to get on with... using Fluke brand meters that get a FREE advertising plug for the company every time the yellow holsters get drawn from the service kit   :-DMM   :-DMM :-DMM

 

Online Fungus

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #415 on: August 21, 2017, 01:23:54 pm »
...
As far as the replacement caps, I've decided to use Polymer Aluminums. These have the advantage of lower ESR and higher ripple current (not really necessary for the 8060), but best of all, due to the organic polymer, they will not spew electrolyte. These 8060s should last for another 30 years. I only had one value I could not fit physically in the position. So I went with the Nichicon UTT for the 22uF/16V part. All the rest are Nichicon RS, RNS or RNU types.

All these parts are in stock at Mouser.

Do you have a handy list of the part numbers, please?

(edited)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 09:46:26 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline switcher

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #416 on: August 22, 2017, 08:42:29 pm »
'Do you have a handy list of the part numbers please' is considered more courteous.
 

Offline kalel

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #417 on: August 22, 2017, 08:46:36 pm »
Just as a note there are two subtle differences between bicarb and baking powder.

They're completely different things.

The choice of glue seems important. Loctite professional is the way to go according to several web sites.

I tried bicarb with the cheapest available liquid super glue for experiment (not on any actual plastic). It does become very solid. I can't say how it compares to other glue, though.
 

Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #418 on: August 25, 2017, 06:48:12 pm »

Continuing to use sharp metal self tapping screws into flimsy thin plastic posts from the 1980s till recently, on EXPENSIVE professional and industrial Cat rated meters,
severely compromising their containment strength in an unfortunate  -meter blowout-  scenario, as shown in the scare tactic 'marketing' videos   :scared:     is  D U H City...    :palm: :palm:


I have encountered those problem occasionally, but never on a meter that was owned by me from first hand. Why? My screw-in procedure starts with a little search rotation to the left, then you feel the start of the pseodothread cut by the screw before.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #419 on: August 25, 2017, 07:13:09 pm »
I have encountered those problem occasionally, but never on a meter that was owned by me from first hand. Why? My screw-in procedure starts with a little search rotation to the left, then you feel the start of the pseodothread cut by the screw before.

Anybody with more then two brain cells does that.

The problem is the sheer amount of torque needed when you're near the end of travel. Thread or no thread.

(also the torque of the first insertion. The posts in these meters aren't huge)

I wonder if Dr.T has any insight on this design decision...

« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 07:17:29 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #420 on: August 25, 2017, 07:13:26 pm »
I have encountered those problem occasionally, but never on a meter that was owned by me from first hand.

Being careful is always a considerable option. On the other hand I can not deny that self-tapping screws are usually a sign for cheaply made products. Even the Voltcraft 6010 made in Korea by Hung Chang (rebranded HC601) has brass inserts.
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Offline drtaylor

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #421 on: August 25, 2017, 10:26:52 pm »
I have 4 restored 8060s functional. I have not been able to calibrate the AC ranges yet. But DCV, mA, and ohms ranges have been tested functional. I have attached a list of the Caps I used. The prices will vary based on how many parts you buy. I was buying for 15 units, with a few spares. All these caps are Alum Polymer types except C36. All are 105deg 5000 hour rated, and should give you many more years of 8060 functionality. The list that Mr. Modemhead published would be fine as well.

I wonder if Dr.T has any insight on this design decision...

I did not have a lot of influence on how the basic case was designed. I had the enclosure designers increase the size of the LCD window and add the four holes for the Elastomeric switch. But the actual design was performed by a mechanical engineer. The SM4 board bracket arrangement was all new for the 8060. Fluke had never hooked circuitry up with elastomerics before. The board to board elastomeric is silver filled which has much lower resistance than the type of elastomerics used for LCDs. The other main change that I influenced was the rigid AC shield. The wrap around shield of the 8020 did not work worth beans for frequency above 1kHz. I also had the bright idea to put the cal procedure on the new rigid top shield and expose a few test points. The first units still had repeatability problems in the AC until we added that little v-shaped bracket on the back of the top shield to hold the main input divider vertical and rigid. Also the bottom stick-on shield was improved for AC performance and we added the screw with the spring to connect the top and bottom shields. It was plenty effective at 100kHz.

Remember that Fluke pioneered the handheld LCD DMM with the release of the 8020. The 8060s case was derived from that and the means of screwing the halves together was developed for the 8020 and its derivatives. This type of plastic does get more brittle over time, but for the most part, the self-tapping (designed for plastic) screw sheathes have held up fine. Brass inserts are no panacea as I have seen them pulled out or actually break the plastic they are swedged into. I never over tighten the mounting screws and never use an electric screwdriver to put them in. BTW, I would not lube the screws, just be careful.
 
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Offline drtaylor

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #422 on: August 25, 2017, 11:13:47 pm »
Recapping an 8060A:

You will remove and replace 10 Caps: C1, C23, C24, C32, and C33 (100uF). C12, C21, and C28 (10uF). C36 (22uF). C19 (47uF). Suitable replacement parts were specified in post #423.

Most importantly - Clean, clean, and clean again. Do not leave flux residue. If you do not blot or blow off the IPA to actually remove the flux residue, then you are potentially making a leakage path elsewhere. (I sure miss the spray freon tanks...boy those made a clean board. I probably damaged my liver holding boards with no protection gear). I know many will think I go overboard on the cleaning, but if you want your 8060 to function in high humidity without going wonky, you will clean buddy, and you will be thorough! A lesson learned from countless hours hovering beside a humidity chamber.

On a side note, one advantage the 4 layer board gave to the 8060 that older models didn't have, is that I buried as many high impedance traces as I could in the inner layers. But they still have to come out somewhere. A practice learned at Fluke that I still follow with all my designs.

Here is the recapping process that I use. By no means the only way to do this. 

(I apologize for the long length of this post and perhaps too much detail here. But not everyone doing this has your years of experience. Use good ESD practices.)

1- Once the case is open, remove the shield (don't lose the spring). Remove the LCD/SM4 assembly. Although not strictly necessary, I also remove the switch end caps, the green power switch slider, and the fuses.

2- Remove all the old capacitors. There are a total of 10 to replace. Try to not damage the pads. I always add a drop of rosin flux before attempting to remove the part. I used a Pace rework station, but the usual combo of a good solder station, solder sucker and solder wick braid will work fine too. I'm a firm believer in using a fairly large tip on the iron for desoldering. With some stubborn corroded pads, I had to use several techniques including adding new solder. You can usually tell if the cap spewed because those are the ones that are difficult to remove due to pad corrosion.

3- Using a sawed off acid brush, scrub the top and bottom of the pads with IPA (99%). Where electrolyte has spilled, the pads will be off-color and potentially heavily corroded. It is important to clean off all the electrolyte thoroughly. If the pad is heavily corroded, you might have to jumper the connection. If it appears the electrolyte has gone under other components, you might have to remove them too.

4- I use a glass cooking pan with a lid. I place the 8060 in the pan and pour IPA (not directly on the 8060) until it just covers the top of the PCA. Do not use so much that it gets into the gang switch.

5- Soak in the IPA for 30 minutes.

6- Remove the board and blow dry it with an air gun at low heat. (Clean compressed air is how I'd do it I had a compressor). At all times, hold the PCB by the edges. Avoid fingerprints!

7- Install the new caps using fine rosin flux solder (I used 27mil diameter). The standard for polarity with Electrolytics is that the long lead (before you trim it off) is positive. Most (but not all) caps have the negative lead identified with a color band. This is the case with the parts in the attached list.

8- Use a sawed off acid brush dipped in clean IPA to remove all flux residue. Use a lint free swab or q-tip to soak up the IPA before it dries. Clean each cap's pads individually so that the IPA does not dry up before you wipe it dry. Again, this is to help remove the IPA diluted flux.

9- After all your new caps are in and clean, place the PCB in the glass pan, and, using new, clean IPA, fill up the pan to just cover the top of the PCB. Leave for 30 minutes.

10- Remove the PCB and use a clean Acid brush to clean every surface you can reach (not just the new cap areas). Re-wet the board in the pan, and then blow it dry.

11- Now the wait... do not apply power until the whole assembly has had at least a few hours to dry. Use this time to disassemble the LCD and clean all the surfaces and elastomerics with a wooden Q-Tip dipped in IPA. Be gentle with the elastomerics, be vigorous with the PCB surfaces. Use lint free wipes to remove any residue while the IPA is still wet. You can also clean the LCD, Lens, and Polarizer with IPA. This should fix any ghosting or non-functional segments. Be careful not to get fingerprints on anything.

12- Reassemble the SM4/LCD assembly, screw it into the board, and now cross your fingers. Apply power and hope you got all of that nasty corrosion out. I suggest trying the ratio test first (Hold down the continuity key while turning on the unit. Hold until just 8s are showing, then release). If the ratio test is 9992 to 10008, your A/D is probably functioning properly. The other test I recommend is a turnover test. This will reveal leakage. Use any stable voltage source and see if the 8060 reads the same regardless of polarity. e.g. Put in around +1.9V with the meter in the 2V range. Note the reading to the lsd. Turn the leads around, and see if the negative reading is the same. Turn over error of 1 digit or less indicates a healthy A/D and input components. Try it again in the 200mV range with ~190mV. If this all looks hunky-dory, turn on the 200nS range. It should immediately go to 0.00. If it takes a while to get there, that's an indication of board or component leakage (or you didn't let the board dry long enough).

Since this post is getting quite lengthy, I'll save troubleshooting tips for a future post if enough people need help. The 8060 User guide has lots of info on testing.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 11:16:49 pm by drtaylor »
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #423 on: August 26, 2017, 04:14:11 am »
Many thanks to Mr. Taylor for the generous postings here   :clap: :clap:

Everyone here realises the plastic post screw casing fiasco isn't on him,

nor is it an exclusive Fluke thing, despite it still going on!    :palm:

Here's one of my Fluke 87Vs that I opened recently for the first time to give it a check and borrow it's fuse to test another meter   

As I unscrewed I felt/heard a crack type sound, and assumed it was the self tapping screw binding on the post.  :-//

Upon close inspection...well, a picture is like a thousand words 


i.e. the sucker was spot welded to the post, so of course any normal force to unscrew it, cracked the post!

I'm past ranting about this stuff, the manufacturers charging big dollars and boasting CAT Rated explosive containment that isn't better than many $6.99 One Hung TuLo meters,

need to get their act into gear ASAP.


Perhaps this issue needs a separate post elsewhere, to keep things here more On Topic   :)



 

Offline jh15

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Re: Old Fluke Multimeters
« Reply #424 on: August 26, 2017, 04:48:20 am »
I just lost half hour composing here because when I posted, warning came up that someone was posting at same time. Went to check, then lost my whole post.

Anyway need to hit sack.



I need a quickie answer.

Got 8060a meter today 3500000ish serial.
Ratio check ok, fuse check, switch check, leakage check ok. dc cal spot on with my better references. turnover ok at 2.5v, no 200mv reference at the moment.

NO AC volts function. I have a couple days to return it. But I would like to know if say an ac coupling cap could cause this. I was planning to recap anyway.

Fuses ok in self test.

Can a bad fuseable protection device cause only a no AC problem?

I will contact the seller now to see if I can open and explore. I'd keep it if I know caps or fusable causes problem.

Thanks

P.S.

best choice for fusables in flukes? Can ptc polyfuses work? I have an assortment on hand.

Thanks.

P.S. 2

I noticed if I put my 2.5v negative reference while on 2v range I get expected OL. If I put positive 2.5 on 2v range I get 1.96xx

P.S. B

read all these almost 500 posts.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 05:19:18 am by jh15 »
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