My project “listens” to a telephone signal and depending on what it “hears” different actions are taken.
It appears as though your experience with scopes might be a little thin. If that's wrong, my apologies...
So, you can't make a list of features you need, you can't add in features you might want down the road, you're pretty much stuck at the starting point.
You mention a logic analyzer - that's not a scope! An MSO scope can handle this kind of stuff but those tend to cost quite a bit more.
Most everybody is going to say "Get a DS1054Z 4 Channel scope, hack it to get to 100 MHz and it includes decoding for serial buses". I haven't done that but I probably will and the procedure is well established.I've watched that and it does look interesting
Watch Dave's videos on the 1054 and see what he has to say.
For goodness sake STAY AWAY from the negative threads on this forum. There are some truly vitriolic haters on those threads. You will also see it in just about every thread that even mentions the word 'scope!Yeah isn't that true for every thing nowadays. Fanboys are everywhere.
Do those models have a basic FFT or spectrum analyzer view? With DTMF that would be a useful diagnostic feature.
Dave says you can use the DS1054Z as a simple logic analyzer, and you can upgrade it to a true MSO scope if/when you need that functionality.
I dont even mention USB scopes... a waste of money....In the low price range, of course. But hey, tell pico technology they just sell crap!
Dave says you can use the DS1054Z as a simple logic analyzer, and you can upgrade it to a true MSO scope if/when you need that functionality.I'm not sure how that could be done.
There are a number of new oscilloscopes in my price range
Beyond a brand name what should I be looking for? 50, 100, 200 or more MHz? Other stuff?More MHz is always good. More channels is always good for logic work.
Most everybody is going to say "Get a DS1054Z 4 Channel scope, hack it to get to 100 MHz and it includes decoding for serial buses". I haven't done that but I probably will and the procedure is well established.
Watch Dave's videos on the 1054 and see what he has to say. For goodness sake STAY AWAY from the negative threads on this forum. There are some truly vitriolic haters on those threads. You will also see it in just about every thread that even mentions the word 'scope!
Rigol is pretty good bang for the buck at every level.
There are others such as Siglent and on up the food chain to Tektronix. The cost just keeps climbing.
My advice (not that I expect anybody to pay attention to what I have to say), buy the DS1054Z, learn what digital scopes can or should do and, later on when needs change, buy something else and sell the 1054 if needed.
In the latest EEVblog #879 post Dave uses a scope to peer into the inner working of a chip (here's a link to where that starts in the video and this is the sort of thing I want to do. Is that pin high or low and when did it happen? I noticed he is using an MSO scope.
I said they are a waste of money, I dont care if its 10MHz or 2Ghz bandwidth. A scope is a scope and a laptop/PC running Windows plus an usb box is crap ( and a waste of money) no matter how good the specs.I dont even mention USB scopes... a waste of money....In the low price range, of course. But hey, tell pico technology they just sell crap
Well, to be fair there's some basis to the critics of Rigol:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/project-yaigol-fixing-rigol-scope-design-problems/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/project-yaigol-fixing-rigol-scope-design-problems/)
That doesn't render the scope useless, but it is a pretty stark display of incompetence in terms of designing hardware properly, and a prospective buyer should be at least aware of the problem and what's required to fix it.
In the latest EEVblog #879 post Dave uses a scope to peer into the inner working of a chip (here's a link to where that starts in the video and this is the sort of thing I want to do. Is that pin high or low and when did it happen? I noticed he is using an MSO scope.
I did not use the MSO function of that scope Keysight scope!
I used the analog channels, because I like to look at the actual waveforms.
Just get the Rigol DS1054Z, it will do everything you want
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETCOhzU1O5A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETCOhzU1O5A)
...in the meantime , while you are deciding how to spend $400 to deal with DTM tones,
Look at the GW Instek GDS-1054B if you don't care about hacking and decoding. It is cheaper than the Rigol 1054Z at Tequipment. It will also be the better buy.
Look at the GW Instek GDS-1054B if you don't care about hacking and decoding. It is cheaper than the Rigol 1054Z at Tequipment. It will also be the better buy.
Rigol (or Siglent) releasing a decent firmware version will require a cold day in hell to happen first
....in the place of an Agilent DSO7104A (that is a $25k scope) on my bench.
You can still buy the DSO7104B from Keysight (the only change between the A version is a different front panel) so it is not like comparing 30 year old technology with today's technology like you are doing. And sure the GDS2204E is 3 times more expensive but it is at least 10 times better. Once you have learned the value of good tools you know that spending more will make your life a whole lot easier.....in the place of an Agilent DSO7104A (that is a $25k scope) on my bench.Was a $25k scope.
....in the place of an Agilent DSO7104A (that is a $25k scope) on my bench.
I've thrown $250,000 SGI computers in the skip because a $250 PC graphics card was better. :-//
Maybe we can petition Dave to do a shootout video. :box:
You can still buy the DSO7104B from Keysight (the only change between the A version is a different front panel) so it is not like comparing 30 year old technology with today's technology like you are doing. And sure the GDS2204E is 3 times more expensive but it is at least 10 times better. Once you have learned the value of good tools you know that spending more will make your life a whole lot easier.....in the place of an Agilent DSO7104A (that is a $25k scope) on my bench.Was a $25k scope.
Maybe we can petition Dave to do a shootout video. :box:
Only if there is an objective system for keeping scores like -10 points for each bug, +50 points for hackability, log10 points for (FFT length/1000), etc.Maybe we can petition Dave to do a shootout video. :box:+1 to that idea.
Guys $18 - $25K scopes are way out of my price range :-DD....in the place of an Agilent DSO7104A (that is a $25k scope) on my bench.
Agilent is expensive but the DSO7104A didn't cost anywhere near $25k but more like $15k ($19k for the MSO variant) (http://www.agilent.com/about/newsroom/presrel/2009/03mar-em09043.html).
Keysight has artificially inflated the RRP of the DSO7104B to $24k to push customers to the larger DSO-X models. I doubt any DSO7104B has sold for more than $18k.I've thrown $250,000 SGI computers in the skip because a $250 PC graphics card was better. :-//
Guys $18 - $25K scopes are way out of my price range :-DDJust saying that spending a little bit more could be well worth it. Many years ago I bought a cheap Black&decker cordless screw driver/drill. When that started to get flaky I bought a Makita costing twice as much but it is such a joy to use that I regretted not buying a Makita when I bought the Black&decker. It is easy to become blinded by a low price and don't get me wrong here: the Makita cordless drill I have is still far from a professional's tool but it is already a major step up from the bottom-of-the-barrel products.
Guys $18 - $25K scopes are way out of my price range :-DD
Now this thread is officially completely off topic
Guys $18 - $25K scopes are way out of my price range :-DDJust saying that spending a little bit more could be well worth it. Many years ago I bought a cheap Black&decker cordless screw driver/drill. When that started to get flaky I bought a Makita costing twice as much but it is such a joy to use that I regretted not buying a Makita when I bought the Black&decker. Don't get me wrong here: the Makita cordless drill is still far from a professional's tool but it is already a major step up from the bottom-of-the-barrel products.
Now, the next question is do I add this to my shopping cart: Cal Test CT4042 Oscilloscope Accessory Kit http://www.tequipment.net/Cal-Test/CT4042/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Cal-Test/CT4042/) It's $65 before the discount and I don't have clue if I need such a thing.That kit can be bought for around $10 (or less) from China through Ebay.
Now, the next question is do I add this to my shopping cart: Cal Test CT4042 Oscilloscope Accessory Kit http://www.tequipment.net/Cal-Test/CT4042/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Cal-Test/CT4042/) It's $65 before the discount and I don't have clue if I need such a thing.That kit can be bought for around $10 (or less) from China through Ebay.
Just look for the seperate parts (shipping from China is free):Any links? I could not find one. tksNow, the next question is do I add this to my shopping cart: Cal Test CT4042 Oscilloscope Accessory Kit http://www.tequipment.net/Cal-Test/CT4042/ (http://www.tequipment.net/Cal-Test/CT4042/) It's $65 before the discount and I don't have clue if I need such a thing.That kit can be bought for around $10 (or less) from China through Ebay.
Guys $18 - $25K scopes are way out of my price range :-DDJust saying that spending a little bit more could be well worth it. Many years ago I bought a cheap Black&decker cordless screw driver/drill. When that started to get flaky I bought a Makita costing twice as much but it is such a joy to use that I regretted not buying a Makita when I bought the Black&decker. It is easy to become blinded by a low price and don't get me wrong here: the Makita cordless drill I have is still far from a professional's tool but it is already a major step up from the bottom-of-the-barrel products.
Only if there is an objective system for keeping scores like -10 points for each bug, +50 points for hackability, log10 points for (FFT length/1000), etc.Maybe we can petition Dave to do a shootout video. :box:+1 to that idea.
Serial decoders which only decode what is on screen are utterly useless so they don't even count.
I did useful things with my Black&decker cordless drill too but life got so much better with the Makita cordless drill! :box:
:palm: It says Makita and Black&decker. Where does it say no drill??I did useful things with my Black&decker cordless drill too but life got so much better with the Makita cordless drill! :box:Maybe so, but you were comparing owning the Black&decker with owning no drill at all (or at best, only owning a hand drill).
Does your $400 GW-Instek have serial decoders?:palm: It says Makita and Black&decker. Where does it say no drill??I did useful things with my Black&decker cordless drill too but life got so much better with the Makita cordless drill! :box:Maybe so, but you were comparing owning the Black&decker with owning no drill at all (or at best, only owning a hand drill).
Serial decoders which only decode what is on screen are utterly useless so they don't even count.
Serial decoders which only decode what is on screen are utterly useless so they don't even count.
I'm starting to sound like a broken record but the decoding on the GD2204E is quick due to the hefty amount of CPU horsepower under the hood. Only at 10Mpts it needs a moment to catch up.Serial decoders which only decode what is on screen are utterly useless so they don't even count.
While it is indeed a significant restriction, it's definitely better than no decode at all. Software based decoders are generally slow, so I can see why they did it that way. On the MDO3000 you can be waiting a _long_ time for a decode. The problem is if you've been used to hardware decode on Keysights, everything else seems a let down.
@Rf-loop: ofcourse you use zoom to look at more details (capture a whole bunch of messages in single shot mode and then zoom in) but if the decode gets confused because it only decodes part of the memory which is on the screen
I'm starting to sound like a broken record but the decoding on the GD2204E is quick due to the hefty amount of CPU horsepower under the hood.Well of course it is on your super-duper, three-times-the-price GD2204E
Without hacking and the serial decode options the DS1054Z has no decoding either. You where the one who wrote you'd buy the DS1054Z even if it where not hackable! GW Instek just follows a different licensing scheme. They basically have 2 model lines where one has decoding and the other one doesn't. It's simple as that.I'm starting to sound like a broken record but the decoding on the GD2204E is quick due to the hefty amount of CPU horsepower under the hood.Well of course it is on your super-duper, three-times-the-price GD2204E
But... you were talking about the GDS-1054B before you started weaseling.
The GDS-1054B loses to the DS1054Z in a shootout because it has no serial decode at all.
Without hacking and the serial decode options the DS1054Z has no decoding either. You where the one who wrote you'd buy the DS1054Z even if it where not hackable!
I'm starting to sound like a broken record but the decoding on the GD2204E is quick due to the hefty amount of CPU horsepower under the hood. Only at 10Mpts it needs a moment to catch up.Serial decoders which only decode what is on screen are utterly useless so they don't even count.
While it is indeed a significant restriction, it's definitely better than no decode at all. Software based decoders are generally slow, so I can see why they did it that way. On the MDO3000 you can be waiting a _long_ time for a decode. The problem is if you've been used to hardware decode on Keysights, everything else seems a let down.
Without hacking and the serial decode options the DS1054Z has no decoding either. You where the one who wrote you'd buy the DS1054Z even if it where not hackable!
Yes I did, and yes I would. I think it's worth $400 of anybody's money.
On the other hand the Rigol is hackable and everybody knows it.
What would I choose in a shootout? A $400 scope with no frills or a $400 scope with twice the bandwidth plus serial decoders, extra memory, etc.? It seems a no-brainer. The GW-Instek loses even if the Rigol does have a couple of hard-to-find bugs.
Sure, the scope is a good value for the money, but it has some (many more than a "couple") _severe_ problems that Rigol really should fix, and to brush these problems under the carpet and ignore them is doing future purchasers and current users a disservice.
...how "hard to find" the "couple" of bugs are. ... Trying to find the maximum slew rate of a signal and discovering that the "diff" math function is useless and returns garbage on-screen
it has some problems that Rigol really should fixI agree that they should be releasing more fixes. The next update is well into the 'overdue' category now.
none of the other trigger modes than edge that i've tested seem to work at least i didn't have to waste money for those and in general it's hard for me to get a stable trigger for something that isn't the built in calibrator where other scopes i use/have works just fine
void setup() {
// put your setup code here, to run once:
Serial.begin(115200);
}
void loop() {
// put your main code here, to run repeatedly:
Serial.print("ABCD now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country");
;delay(2);
}
- serial triggering. just doesn't work. actually none of the other trigger modes than edge that i've tested seem to work
....
and in general it's hard for me to get a stable trigger for something that isn't the built in calibrator where other scopes i use/have works just fine
Now make it trigger on A or C >:D
Now make it trigger on A or C >:D
As I said, I can make it trigger on ANY of the 4 chars. All I have to do is turn the little knob to set the trigger value.
Now make it trigger on A or C >:D
As I said, I can make it trigger on ANY of the 4 chars. All I have to do is turn the little knob to set the trigger value.
I think the weird little face means he wants a boolean "OR" function, ie. 'A' OR 'C'
Not really, the scope just doesn't trigger in any mode that isn't edge.
(Also i was playing around with a wall wart transformer that outputted a 18Vpk not so clean ac waveform on an old analog scope i just got. i measured it with the 1054 and at 50V/division it wasn't able to trigger on zero.. found out that by chance and it's ofncourse a very singular case that should not be taken into account in this scope's bashing. Anyway, depending on the timebase i adjusted the finetune scale until it triggered and it also changed between 40 and 35 v/div. It's a borderlone case because there is a different input circuit at that scale... and being sincronous with AC might also explain why the trigger was so difficul but that made me wonder if i actually have a faulty scope)
I wonder if i indeed have a faulty scope. I'll make further tests and eventually contact rigol
There is always a day some functionality comes in handy. Did I mention the GW Instek serial protocol decoding can trigger on don't care bits using up to 10 bytes so you can filter on very specific messages?
I wonder if i indeed have a faulty scope. I'll make further tests and eventually contact rigol
There is no MSO model yet, bet seems will be in the future because there is a place for logic analyzer add-on board inside the scope.There is always a day some functionality comes in handy. Did I mention the GW Instek serial protocol decoding can trigger on don't care bits using up to 10 bytes so you can filter on very specific messages?
MSO or DSO? Which model?
That is a very cool feature. I don't know that I need it but it is very interesting. I know my little FPGA Logic Analyzer won't do anything like that. I can have don't cares in a parallel word but not in a serial stream. Nice!
There is no MSO model yet, bet seems will be in the future because there is a place for logic analyzer add-on board inside the scope.There is always a day some functionality comes in handy. Did I mention the GW Instek serial protocol decoding can trigger on don't care bits using up to 10 bytes so you can filter on very specific messages?
MSO or DSO? Which model?
That is a very cool feature. I don't know that I need it but it is very interesting. I know my little FPGA Logic Analyzer won't do anything like that. I can have don't cares in a parallel word but not in a serial stream. Nice!
I have no idea about rigol but i think that (almost) any other mode than edge triggering might need a software side to analyze the dataI wonder if i indeed have a faulty scope. I'll make further tests and eventually contact rigol
The thing to realize is that triggering isn't a software function. It's perfectly possible that an oscilloscope has a defective trigger.
Which model should I research? Is the cost in the same order of magnitude as the DS1054Z?Direct competitor with not hacked DS1054Z is GDS-1054B. It is overall much better scope but there are no decoding options to unlock, not hacked DS1054Z has no decoding either. http://www.tequipment.net/rigol/gw-instek-gds-1054b-vs-rigol-ds1054z/ (http://www.tequipment.net/rigol/gw-instek-gds-1054b-vs-rigol-ds1054z/)
No, I was asking about the specific model that allowed long strings of "don't cares" in a serial decode. I wasn't looking for a substitute to the DS1054Z. It would be nice if the decode was free but I'm more interested in how much it costs to get the feature. I doubt that I'll even NEED the feature but it would be worth knowing about. Once I get the model number, I'll hunt down the User Manual.That is the GDS2000E series:
So, something like the GDS-2104E to get 100 MHz and 4 channels - $1200.Check 200 MHz GDS-2204E, it's actually cheaper than 100 MHz model because have bigger discount for some weird reason. Actually 100 MHz is more expensive than $1200, so likely you seen the price for 200 MHz model but read the model wrong.
That's a little over the top for me and my little hobby. Actually, the DS1054Z was a stretch since I already had a Tektronix 485.
Still, if that decoding feature is truly necessary in the commercial arena, $1200 isn't a lot of money. Pretty nice!
For my purposes, I don't see any need to debug UART communications. I can just jam the stream into a terminal. But SPI and especially I2C decoding is much more problematic. Any scope that will decode these streams will be a blessing.
Have to say I'm with nctnico on this one, I hardly ever use a PC based logic analyser nowadays, although I did use them extensively back when I didn't have a scope with decoding capability.
Example of Rigol design and build "quality". RP-3300A probe at the BNC connector side. Central conductor living by it's own in the hole and shorting to the metal. Already repaired both of those I received with DS-2072 by bending the wire. But they failed again, guess will need to fill the hole with silicone to prevent them shorting again. Also you can see quality construction with 2 resistors soldered on top of each other, one of them upside down. Hook attachments never worked properly too. When you press it, it's very scratchy, often gets stuck and the gook on the end is no good too, very hard to attach to the measuring point. Piece of crap in one word.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-buying-questions/?action=dlattach;attach=225650;image)
Just got my DS2072a today, and had a look at the probe, its been fixed. It also has a "TUVRheinland" sticker attached (which I believe is some kind of german quality board?? ) although don't know why...
Don't let the Pesky Facts get in the way of a good rant.
Good for them that they fixed this. Though this still does not change the fact that Rigol made that kind of ridiculous crap on some point of time. Also it's only one of the "features" of these probes that pisses me off. Others are: attachable hooks are half-working crap because get stuck in pressed position (had read a lot of complaints about that). Hard to attach and does not hold well on the lead attached because of the shape of the hook itself. Rubber channel identification rings detach from the place multiple times a day. Probes are unnecessarily bulky at the BNC connector side, therefore hard to attach to the scope and obstruct attaching a second probe or accessing the scale knobs on the cramped DS2000 front panel (No such problem with GW Instek probes attached to the Rigol scope, LOL). And that's just because of rectangular plastic enclosure, probe is much smaller inside and has round shield. Why not put round enclosure :palm: ? Probes are rubbery-bendy, therefore hard to precisely poke onto some tiny pads where it is easy to short something.Just got my DS2072a today, and had a look at the probe, its been fixed. It also has a "TUVRheinland" sticker attached (which I believe is some kind of german quality board?? ) although don't know why...
Don't let the Pesky Facts get in the way of a good rant.
Recenty I got a Keysight probe (350Mhz). Has the same "box" as the rigol or even bigger.Do you have rigol probe to compare side by side? Because Rigol apparently is much bigger than Keysight probe. Especially that huge BNC connector with plastic molded on top of metal. EDIT, after examining photos of keysight probe, that box actually seems maybe a little bit bigger than my instek probe on the photo. Nothing like that Rigol box.
the rigols has a soft plastic and looks great .That "soft" (i think probably rubber) is a piece of shit. It's not good at all when the probe bends in your hand. And it's too small too. Very uncomfortable to hold.
Don't let the Pesky Facts get in the way of a good rant.Good for them that they fixed this. Though this still does not change the fact that Rigol made that kind of ridiculous crap on some point of time.
Good luck getting that keysight scope for less than $5000 if you are located in Brazil. As of Rigol, even during the first weeks of warranty period I had very piss poor service from them. And this is in EU. In Brazil you already should be thankful that support exists as such.Don't let the Pesky Facts get in the way of a good rant.Good for them that they fixed this. Though this still does not change the fact that Rigol made that kind of ridiculous crap on some point of time.
You're missing the point, which is: Rigol aren't the only company making sub-standard stuff. Two weeks ago everybody here was worshipping "Keysight" and saying their stuff was incredible quality and sales support was anazing.
Now the forum is full of threads proving that wrong - Keysight 'scopes dying all over the place and Keysight support asking people for 90% of the price of a new 'scope to fix theirs.
Nobody's saying Rigol's perfect, but neither is anybody else.
(And at least Rigol stuff is cheap - you're not paying $2000 for the problems).
Keysight support asking people for 90% of the price of a new 'scope to fix theirs.In Brazil pricing, most likely it was below 40% of the new scope price.
Good luck getting that keysight scope for less than $5000 if you are located in Brazil. As of Rigol, even during the first weeks of warranty period I had very piss poor service from them. And this is in EU. In Brazil you already should be thankful that support exists as such.
In Spain you don't have 60% import tax by itself (This is even not including their VAT equivalent).Good luck getting that keysight scope for less than $5000 if you are located in Brazil. As of Rigol, even during the first weeks of warranty period I had very piss poor service from them. And this is in EU. In Brazil you already should be thankful that support exists as such.
You think Spain is any better? :popcorn:
(well, ok, at least we're European so I can order my stuff from Germany)
In Spain you don't have 60% import tax by itself (This is even not including their VAT equivalent).Good luck getting that keysight scope for less than $5000 if you are located in Brazil. As of Rigol, even during the first weeks of warranty period I had very piss poor service from them. And this is in EU. In Brazil you already should be thankful that support exists as such.
You think Spain is any better? :popcorn:
(well, ok, at least we're European so I can order my stuff from Germany)
Especially that huge BNC connector with plastic molded on top of metal. EDIT, after examining photos of keysight probe, that box actually seems maybe a little bit bigger than my instek probe on the photo. Nothing like that Rigol box.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-buying-questions/?action=dlattach;attach=227510;image)
That seems to be the way many probes are going these days and IMO it's to provide the user with additional insulation for safety reasons.If you need them insulated, you already violate safety measures. After all, there is trigger input BNC sticking out nearby which is completely uninsulated even if the both probes are attached. Float the DUT if you really need that, not the scope. The fun fact is, those Rigol probes are easy to attach to GDS-2000E scope and don't obstruct any controls, but are pain to attach to Rigol DS2000, and obstruct accessing the scale knobs.
But as has been pointed out unless some thought has been given to front panel layout they can be a PITA to use.
I hear you loud and clear on all points. ;)That seems to be the way many probes are going these days and IMO it's to provide the user with additional insulation for safety reasons.If you need them insulated, you already violate safety measures. After all, there is trigger input BNC sticking out nearby which is completely uninsulated even if the both probes are attached. Float the DUT if you really need that, not the scope. The fun fact is, those Rigol probes are easy to attach to GDS-2000E scope and don't obstruct any controls, but are pain to attach to Rigol DS2000, and obstruct accessing the scale knobs.
But as has been pointed out unless some thought has been given to front panel layout they can be a PITA to use.