Author Topic: Oscilloscope Choice: Yokogawa DL1740EL or Iwatsu DS-5624A or Tektronics TBS2204B  (Read 2595 times)

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Offline Aldo22

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I've done a video on exactly this:

You say in the video:
"Price category is everything when you're talking about scopes."
Very true! But why not be consistent?
In the video you actively advise against ~$150 scopes.
But this is also a price category and even these scopes can be more than enough for many hobbyists.
In some cases, even the AWG is already included.
I see no reason to categorically exclude this price category. Just take them for what they are.
Any scope is better than no scope.  ;)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2024, 10:19:08 am by Aldo22 »
 
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Offline thm_w

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No one is suggesting OP to go and buy a $300 scope.
Why not? (Well, maybe $500+)
The OP says, "I don't have a specific feature I'm looking for, but I want to optimize bang/buck."

No but I'm giving them enough credit that they would need 200MHz+ and a decent size screen since they listed 200/500MHz scopes. If they don't then that is their fault for not specificity requirements better. Why would we try to save them money when they can't be bothered to post the relevant info?

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Maybe it would be helpful if the OP told us if he already has a scope and which one.
Then we could estimate what he means by "decent" or what the next step could be.

Exactly, pointless speculation until they give details.

Very true! But why not be consistent?
In the video you actively advise against ~$150 scopes.
But this is also a price category and even these scopes can be more than enough for many hobbyists.

- The quality/features a $300 scope gets you over a $150 is arguably more than 2x
- The type of people Dave is targeting, IMO, are more serious hobbyists or people that will be using the scope for years to come and expanding their skills and knowledge. $150 is fine if you continue to do basic hobby projects, but not if you plan to grow at all.
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Offline EEVblog

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I've done a video on exactly this:

You say in the video:
"Price category is everything when you're talking about scopes."
Very true! But why not be consistent?
In the video you actively advise against ~$150 scopes.
But this is also a price category and even these scopes can be more than enough for many hobbyists.
In some cases, even the AWG is already included.
I see no reason to categorically exclude this price category. Just take them for what they are.
Any scope is better than no scope.  ;)

Yeah, fair enough. And I've said as much in cheap scope reviews.
Usually people are talking about a bench scope though.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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- The quality/features a $300 scope gets you over a $150 is arguably more than 2x
- The type of people Dave is targeting, IMO, are more serious hobbyists or people that will be using the scope for years to come and expanding their skills and knowledge. $150 is fine if you continue to do basic hobby projects, but not if you plan to grow at all.

Yes, this.
As I said, people are usually talking about a bench scope when they ask the "what first scope should I buy question".
If they genuinely only have $50 or $100 to spend, then I'm not going to insist that they forget it unless they have $300.
 

Offline jonpaul

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Dave we used many Yokogawa Japanese scopes since 1992,

1560, DL1740, DL7440.

All have been easy to use, robust and ergonomic controls.

Main failure was dead backup battery, easy to replace.

I have no info on Iwatsu but found early TEK digital like TDS350 somewhat hard to use.

Still using the YEW 1740 and 7440.

Just my experience,

Jon
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Offline EEVblog

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Did you read the endlessly long bug threads on your own forum?  :) More features: probably yes if they work as intended. Better: definitely debatable. I used to be a big Siglent supporter as they where going to 'stick it to' the big A brands and make them lower their prices. But in the mean time I've learned the only people Siglent (and Rigol too) are 'sticking it to' are their own customers. In the past decade I have a spend (directly and indirectly) over 3000 euro (ex VAT) on Siglent gear which turned out to be useless for the purpose it was bought for due to bugs / shortcomings.

Ok, so you've had a bad experience with Siglent, fair enough. But I'm sure even you have to admit that others haven't, and that Siglent a serious player with serious products, with countless satisfied customers, both low end and advanced.

2N3055 mentioned R&S. My MXO4 R&S scope is the only scope I've ever had that I personally found several major bugs that entirely locked up the scope. No other scope has ever done that, not Siglent, not Rigol, not even the $50 cheapie handhelds. It also had a loose screw that rattled around in the chassis. To the credit of R&S they fixed it quick smart.
The Keysight 3000 is the only scope I've had that has released the magic scope due to a hardware design fault.

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Bottom line: if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys so don't expect to pay less and still get the same quality. Ofcourse people can decide for themselves if they want to save money or that a cheaper unit is perfect for their needs.

Welcome to the complex world of "bang per buck".

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But even for occasional hobby use it can be worthwhile to go for the better polished gear even if it doesn't have all the bells & whistles and/or it is second hand. Except for the Yokogawa, the oscilloscopes the OP is looking at are definitely not old units. The Tektronix one (TBS2000B series) was released only a few years ago.

Sure, fair argument. But what's not fair is outright bashing the likes of Siglent for everyone just because you had a personal issue with it.

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And as I wrote before the prices the shop is asking are way too high, there is likely a lot of wiggle room; a decent price would be a little bit below half the price the shop is asking.
But not always with great success. AFAIK Lecroy does quite a bit of quality control on the firmware themselves before releasing a product nowadays. They have got bitten badly in the past by rebranding Siglent products. Don't mention 'Waveace' to any of their sales reps... It looks like Lecroy has cancelled 'Waveace' as a product line.

And even though they got "bitten" just like you did, Lecroy decided to trust Siglent again.
 
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Offline Aldo22

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- The quality/features a $300 scope gets you over a $150 is arguably more than 2x
That may be true, but a $150 scope is 1000x better than no scope!  ;D

- The type of people Dave is targeting, IMO, are more serious hobbyists or people that will be using the scope for years to come and expanding their skills and knowledge. $150 is fine if you continue to do basic hobby projects, but not if you plan to grow at all.
Well, in the $150 category you certainly don't have the next 10 years in mind, but you have to start somewhere and I see nothing wrong with starting with something cheap to realize what you really need.
 
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Offline Aldo22

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Usually people are talking about a bench scope though.

I'm also talking about a bench scope.
Are you saying that because of the AWG?
The Hantek DSO2000 (which I bought for USD 130 on sale last November) has the AWG hardware built in (every model), you just have to “activate” it.
The AWG even has some nice features that you wouldn't expect for the extremely low price (single, short pulses (20ns), AM/FM up to 25MHz...).
« Last Edit: May 30, 2024, 08:11:35 am by Aldo22 »
 

Offline nctnico

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Did you read the endlessly long bug threads on your own forum?  :) More features: probably yes if they work as intended. Better: definitely debatable. I used to be a big Siglent supporter as they where going to 'stick it to' the big A brands and make them lower their prices. But in the mean time I've learned the only people Siglent (and Rigol too) are 'sticking it to' are their own customers. In the past decade I have a spend (directly and indirectly) over 3000 euro (ex VAT) on Siglent gear which turned out to be useless for the purpose it was bought for due to bugs / shortcomings.

Ok, so you've had a bad experience with Siglent, fair enough. But I'm sure even you have to admit that others haven't, and that Siglent a serious player with serious products, with countless satisfied customers, both low end and advanced.

2N3055 mentioned R&S. My MXO4 R&S scope is the only scope I've ever had that I personally found several major bugs that entirely locked up the scope. No other scope has ever done that, not Siglent, not Rigol, not even the $50 cheapie handhelds. It also had a loose screw that rattled around in the chassis. To the credit of R&S they fixed it quick smart.
But still: R&S knows what they are doing and have the capacity to fix things quickly and in the right way. The RTM3004 R&S send me for a review also had some issues when I got it but it got fixed quickly as well. Unfortunately that is the world we live in. Products get released ahead of schedule.
Quote

Quote
Bottom line: if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys so don't expect to pay less and still get the same quality. Ofcourse people can decide for themselves if they want to save money or that a cheaper unit is perfect for their needs.

Welcome to the complex world of "bang per buck".

Quote
But even for occasional hobby use it can be worthwhile to go for the better polished gear even if it doesn't have all the bells & whistles and/or it is second hand. Except for the Yokogawa, the oscilloscopes the OP is looking at are definitely not old units. The Tektronix one (TBS2000B series) was released only a few years ago.

Sure, fair argument. But what's not fair is outright bashing the likes of Siglent for everyone just because you had a personal issue with it.
I don't have a personal issue with Siglent. I just look at it from a commercial perspective.

Take these fairly recent threads for example (there are many more):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-1202x-e-serial-decoding-not-working/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg1032-as-bad-as-rigol-dg812/

Now imagine these people are on your payroll and spend days chasing their tails due to equipment not working and technical support being useless (as Siglent support doesn't even know how a UART protocol looks like in the wild judging by the first thread). And for sure you can argue that especially the 2nd thread is made by someone lacking experience but if you read carefully  / sifting through the information, you'll see that the oddities (lets put it that way) in the Siglent generator isn't helping to move the person forward.

And my personal experience with Siglent is along the same lines. A couple of years ago I had two very clever junior engineers (working for one of my customers) chasing their tails for over 2 weeks worth of time due to a bug in the Siglent SDG2000 series generator (which is a highly popular and recommended model on this forum). Then I had to step in and also spend over a day figuring out what the hell was wrong with their setup (which wasn't a simple project at all) AND then spend time to hack something together to replace the generator ASAP. That loss of time has cost way more compared to buying an A-brand generator from the start.

So yes, I also tried to trust Siglent again but needless to say I'm not planning on trying again any time soon based on the problems people on this forum run into (the same goes for Rigol BTW). In general I rather spend a bit more on A-brand equipment where it comes to key equipment, knowing that it will work as advertised, knowing that I get sensible answers from technical support than making do. In the end it saves me time and irritation (which is equally true for hobbyists BTW).

So I'm not bashing at all. Just making a fact based statement so people can make an informed choice for themselves based on requirements and budget. Bashing would be to write A-brands are overpriced crap and owners of a Mercedes are utterly stupid  8)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2024, 09:13:35 am by nctnico »
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Offline coromonadalix

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For me Rigol was more deceptive,  but i wont bash them because of that

Every brand have their quirks, and yes sadly you may or may not know them all

my only hopes are : that theses companies will upgrade their FW to correct them fast, and not make people wait years


And the expression (150$  for a scope is better than nothing), i'll personally choose nothing,    i've gone to / from the cheapest to the good,  Hantek ... to .... 
you may waste more time with theses, than having a better range of products (BTW not just scopes), but even paying for better does not mean you wont have any problems ...

and you better keep and save your money to improve or choose better, the vintage effect is still here too,  witch mess things up ...


We are checking to buy the SDS7k Siglent series after a demo was sent to us,  very good scope

But for me:  just asking permission to execute an auto setup  is the @#%@@ i've seen,  but  it does not mean the rest is crap ... 
but for me this thingy, is a major annoyance,   all depends on how you see things


you'll never get the perfect picture, even if you pay thousands,   

I understand  Nctnico ...   i may say so far  we are lucky, and we do automatisations with Siglent sdg1000 series and sds1000x scopes, done tests with the SDS7k 3ghz model  all is good ... for now  the IT guy is happy  loll 

SO far with "upgrades" we saved 10k $$$  with many Siglent instruments  :-+
« Last Edit: May 30, 2024, 09:58:54 am by coromonadalix »
 
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Offline Aldo22

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And the expression (150$  for a scope is better than nothing), i'll personally choose nothing,   
If you don't have better one? I don't believe you.  ;)
This price range is certainly not for professionals or advanced amateurs.

you may waste more time with theses,
Yes, that's what hobbies are for, to waste time.   ;D
 

Offline temperance

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Quote
And my personal experience with Siglent is along the same lines. A couple of years ago I had two very clever junior engineers (working for one of my customers) chasing their tails for over 2 weeks worth of time due to a bug in the Siglent SDG2000 series generator (which is a highly popular and recommended model on this forum). Then I had to step in and also spend over a day figuring out what the hell was wrong with their setup (which wasn't a simple project at all) AND then spend time to hack something together to replace the generator ASAP. That loss of time has cost way more compared to buying an A-brand generator from the start.

They must have been Very Clever to the point of geniuses if they couldn't find out by themself what is wrong in two weeks with two people and it took you only little over day to find out.
 

Offline nctnico

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Quote
And my personal experience with Siglent is along the same lines. A couple of years ago I had two very clever junior engineers (working for one of my customers) chasing their tails for over 2 weeks worth of time due to a bug in the Siglent SDG2000 series generator (which is a highly popular and recommended model on this forum). Then I had to step in and also spend over a day figuring out what the hell was wrong with their setup (which wasn't a simple project at all) AND then spend time to hack something together to replace the generator ASAP. That loss of time has cost way more compared to buying an A-brand generator from the start.

They must have been Very Clever to the point of geniuses if they couldn't find out by themself what is wrong in two weeks with two people and it took you only little over day to find out.
There is something like tunnelvision and not expecting test equipment to misbehave. When developing something, your test equipment is like a golden standard. It 'only' took me a day because the engineers had already checked everything they could and had run out of possible causes for the effect they where seeing; it is not like I redid all their work. At that point I got the idea of doing an equipment check as a last ditch effort.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2024, 01:57:43 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Caliaxy

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But for me:  just asking permission to execute an auto setup  is the @#%@@ i've seen,  but  it does not mean the rest is crap ... 

Ha-ha - so you are one of those guys who never hits the Auto button unintentionally while crafting a complicated acquisition…. :-DD
 

Offline nctnico

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But for me:  just asking permission to execute an auto setup  is the @#%@@ i've seen,  but  it does not mean the rest is crap ... 

Ha-ha - so you are one of those guys who never hits the Auto button unintentionally while crafting a complicated acquisition…. :-DD
Autoset typically screws everything up so I avoid pressing it. The Iwatsu DS-5624A the OP has listed actually has a system setting to disable the autoset button. All oscilloscopes should have this feature...
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Aldo22

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Autoset typically screws everything up so I avoid pressing it. The Iwatsu DS-5624A the OP has listed actually has a system setting to disable the autoset button. All oscilloscopes should have this feature...
The Hantek DSO2000 has a cancel option. I have often used this.
Manual says:
Cancel: Let the oscilloscope recall the previous setup.
 
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Offline Caliaxy

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But for me:  just asking permission to execute an auto setup  is the @#%@@ i've seen,  but  it does not mean the rest is crap ... 

Ha-ha - so you are one of those guys who never hits the Auto button unintentionally while crafting a complicated acquisition…. :-DD
Autoset typically screws everything up so I avoid pressing it. The Iwatsu DS-5624A the OP has listed actually has a system setting to disable the autoset button. All oscilloscopes should have this feature...

Totally agree. I avoid pressing it too, but it occasionally happens when I switch scopes. Not only Autoset screws everything up (most of the times...) but it also takes its time doing it, leaving you with nothing better to do but watch what you just did, for quite a few looong seconds. Then you have to start over...

I have recently used a Rigol MSO5000, with the Autoset button placed conveniently close the Run/Stop button (same color, same size, same tactile feeling). Not fun. Siglent SDS1104 also has the Autoset button dangerously close to the Run/Stop button, but at least they bothered to choose a different color for it (bright blue). Keysights and more expensive Siglents (e.g. SDS2000) have the Autoset button recessed (aren't they smart?), so at least you feel you are pressing the wrong button. Might have stopped a few slow, hesitant people with low-self confidence. :) Kudos to Iwatsu for allowing you disable the feature altogehter.
 

Online KungFuJosh

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Keysights and more expensive Siglents (e.g. SDS2000) have the Autoset button recessed (aren't they smart?), so at least you feel you are pressing the wrong button. Might have stopped a few slow, hesitant people with low-self confidence. :) Kudos to Iwatsu for allowing you disable the feature altogehter.

I'm in the opposite camp; I'm lazy, and when I can get away with it, Autoset is often a good starting point for me.

Siglent makes you press the Autoset button twice or confirm on screen (SDS2504X+ here). If I could disable the confirmation, I would. 😉
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Offline 2N3055

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I'm with the crowd that are happy that Autoset And Default should have confirmation..
We are all different, aparently....
 
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Offline Aldo22

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I'm with the crowd that are happy that Autoset And Default should have confirmation..
We are all different, aparently....
The cheapest scope has cancel options for Autoset and Default Setup
Imo the best solution.  ;)
 

Offline 2N3055

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I'm with the crowd that are happy that Autoset And Default should have confirmation..
We are all different, aparently....
The cheapest scope has cancel options for Autoset and Default Setup
Imo the best solution.  ;)

Yes if that works for you.. Default I press only very deliberately, and Auto only by mistake. In which case I don't even want to wait for it to finish to press Undo... IMO.
 

Offline Aldo22

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Yes if that works for you.. Default I press only very deliberately, and Auto only by mistake. In which case I don't even want to wait for it to finish to press Undo... IMO.

Autoset takes 3 to 4 seconds and Default Setup works immediately.
I have no problem with this.
The important thing is that if you accidentally press the button, you can immediately restore the previous status.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Yes if that works for you.. Default I press only very deliberately, and Auto only by mistake. In which case I don't even want to wait for it to finish to press Undo... IMO.

Autoset takes 3 to 4 seconds and Default Setup works immediately.
I have no problem with this.
The important thing is that if you accidentally press the button, you can immediately restore the previous status.

You don't, I do. As far as I'm concerned, both Default and Autoset are buttons that I would like were used for something useful instead. On Siglent you can Default from menu anyways. Auto I don't need at all.
If in doubt, I can quickly set Auto triggering (or force if needed), set channel offset to zero and V/div large to get signal on screen. Press Trigger level for auto (it has that on Trigger) and twiddle timebase..

I never need Auto. I don't remember when I used it myself. Last time I did was to verify bug with Auto, long time ago. But never used it in work. I simply don't need it.
 
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Offline Aldo22

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You don't, I do. As far as I'm concerned, both Default and Autoset are buttons that I would like were used for something useful instead. On Siglent you can Default from menu anyways. Auto I don't need at all.
If in doubt, I can quickly set Auto triggering (or force if needed), set channel offset to zero and V/div large to get signal on screen. Press Trigger level for auto (it has that on Trigger) and twiddle timebase..

I never need Auto. I don't remember when I used it myself. Last time I did was to verify bug with Auto, long time ago. But never used it in work. I simply don't need it.

That probably depends on the scope.
You need to know what Autoset does so that you can decide whether it makes sense.
With my scope, Autoset changes many parameters, including acq. mode, mem. depth, BW limitation, coupling...
So if I want a kind of “reset”, Autoset can save me a few button presses.
If I want to keep the channel and acquisition settings, it is of course not suitable (if it happens anyway -> Cancel )
« Last Edit: May 30, 2024, 09:25:20 pm by Aldo22 »
 
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Offline thm_w

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Well, in the $150 category you certainly don't have the next 10 years in mind, but you have to start somewhere and I see nothing wrong with starting with something cheap to realize what you really need.

The Hantek DSO2000 is currently selling for $202 for 2CH 100MHz: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256802172076555.html
Thats not too bad.

If its the choice between having a scope and not as a hobbyist, can understand.
If you plan to use the thing to get you through school, I would use student loan money, save up a few more months, etc.
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