Author Topic: Oscilloscope Dilemma  (Read 5248 times)

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Offline BassClefTopic starter

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Oscilloscope Dilemma
« on: December 03, 2022, 11:39:50 pm »
Remember those cartoons where a person has an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other, each telling him what do do? That's how I feel right now.

I'm a retired IT guy and a long-time ham radio operator. I'm not an EE. I'm thinking seriously about buying an oscilloscope. I don't know if I truly need one, but am sure that I want one. I already have a TEK DVM (DMM850) an analog VOM, a NanoVNA, a RigExpert 54 MHz antenna analyzer, and an RSP1A SDR receiver.

The scope would be used for typical ham radio stuff. Checking signal quality, troubleshooting, adjusting and aligning equipment, plus general messing around and learning things. I operate from 3.5 to 144 and 440 MHz, with an emphasis on 3.5 to 28 MHz. I am focusing on digital storage scopes for "hobbyists." I will probably buy new. I've ruled out old analog scopes because I don't have the space, and I don't want to inherit somebody else's problems. I want reliability. I've already read more reviews and watched more YouTube videos than I can process. Models I'm considering are:

Siglent SDS1202X-E
Rigol DS1054Z
Hantek DS05102P

I'm leaning towards the Siglent because it is has 200 MHz bandwidth, and seems to hit the "sweet" spot for price vs. capabilities. The Rigol is the most expensive and probably overkill, as I don't see needing 4 channels. I'm also concerned about possibly needing to "hack" the Rigol to get full capabilities. People here seem to think that Hantek is a cut below the others. But honestly, any of the three could probably do the job.

Then I consider the Owon VDS1022i USB scope and I think, "That's a lot less money, and it would probably be adequate for HF." And then I think "Don't cheap out, get what you really want, and you won't have to buy twice."

I read "Oscilloscopes for Radio Amateurs," by Paul Danzer. He seems to like USB scopes. In one section titled "Don't Overbuy," he mentions that one can get useful qualitative information for frequencies considerably above a scope's official bandwidth, just not precise quantitative information. He also advises not paying for features you can't use while the scope is being used a scope (such as a signal or function generator capability).

Any thoughts? Thanks!

--Peter
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2022, 12:00:37 am »
Hi Peter,

Quote
as I don't see needing 4 channels.

Sooner or later you could regret this...if not, you´re lucky man.  ;)

USB-scopes...Mhhh...I don´t like them, got several ones but to be honest never the "only ones" from picoscope which would blast away your budget.
Forget the hantek thing...
It leads you to rigol or siglent, last would fit better as you will need more bandwith for your tasks.
Or to say it more correctly, it´s the one which reaches your needs at least.

Offline james_s

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2022, 12:03:47 am »
I have an older USB scope that I never use anymore because it's a hassle, a standalone instrument is so much easier to use. Both the Rigol and Siglent are good scopes, I've personally used the former. Hacking it is no issue at all, it's pretty much trivial to do. There have been a few times in my life where more than 2 channels was useful although I got by for many years with a 2 channel scope and generally find that to be adequate.
 

Offline Traceless

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2022, 12:13:07 am »
Not sure if that is helping or making things worse but let me throw in another contestant: The Hanmatek DOS1102. Thats a pretty affordable 2-Channel 110MHz 1GSa/s scope.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 12:18:21 am by Traceless »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2022, 12:19:36 am »
Given the use, I think the Siglent would be the most appropriate choice. For checking signals, a 2 channel scope will do just fine and the higher bandwidth will be more beneficial than having 4 channels. 4 channels is more appropriate when doing electronics development work where you likely want to see the signals at more than 2 places in the circuit.

Not sure about not over-buying though. My advise would be to spend as much money as you can to buy the best tool you can get. It will definitely make whatever you use the equipment for, a more enjoyable experience.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline BillyO

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2022, 01:19:57 am »
The Siglent will happily work up to 144MHz out of the box.  The Rigol will need hacking to get there, but from what I've seen that hacking can be done in a few minutes with no tools needed.  None of these scopse can be made to work effectively @ 440MHz.  You'll need to spend at least 3 times as much to get there.

Put the Hantek down, step back and walk away ..

Hantek make half decent USB scopes hardware wise.  I have a supposedly 70MHz 6074BE that will gladly work out to 250MHz before being 3dB down, but their software is nothing to write home about.  The problem is, they have known their software is in dire need of improvement for 12 years and they have done nothing about it.  You don't want to get into bed with a partner that responsive.  As for their stand-alone scopes?  Just no!
« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 01:27:05 am by BillyO »
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2022, 01:23:08 am »
If you go upscale a bit  you may find things that are useful that you wouldn't have imagined were available at a 'hobbyist' price.  This is a scope you can buy for $999 right now, the Siglent SDS2104X+ "upgraded" to SDS2354X+ w/ options.  It has 500MHz+ actual BW.  This is an FM-Stereo modulated 101.5MHz test signal FFT (spectrum display).

A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Online Martin72

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2022, 01:23:52 am »
Quote
The Siglent will happily work up to 144MHz out of the box.

It´s the 1202X-E, with 200Mhz bandwith...

Offline BillyO

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2022, 01:28:53 am »
Quote
The Siglent will happily work up to 144MHz out of the box.

It´s the 1202X-E, with 200Mhz bandwith...
Ahh, did I say something wrong?
Bill  (Currently a Siglent fanboy)
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Offline tautech

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2022, 04:40:22 am »
Remember those cartoons where a person has an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other, each telling him what do do? That's how I feel right now.

I'm a retired IT guy and a long-time ham radio operator. I'm not an EE. I'm thinking seriously about buying an oscilloscope. I don't know if I truly need one, but am sure that I want one.
Welcome to the forum.

Beware the rabbit hole you are staring into.  :)

Quote
Models I'm considering are:
Siglent SDS1202X-E
Rigol DS1054Z
Hantek DS05102P

I'm leaning towards the Siglent because it is has 200 MHz bandwidth, and seems to hit the "sweet" spot for price vs. capabilities. The Rigol is the most expensive and probably overkill, as I don't see needing 4 channels. I'm also concerned about possibly needing to "hack" the Rigol to get full capabilities. People here seem to think that Hantek is a cut below the others. But honestly, any of the three could probably do the job.
Honestly, there is no substitute for BW for what you have told us, none !

Quote
I read "Oscilloscopes for Radio Amateurs," by Paul Danzer. He seems to like USB scopes. In one section titled "Don't Overbuy," he mentions that one can get useful qualitative information for frequencies considerably above a scope's official bandwidth, just not precise quantitative information. He also advises not paying for features you can't use while the scope is being used a scope (such as a signal or function generator capability).
It seems Paul Danzer is living in another world compared to the functionality of the modern DSO.

Really you just can't let these people guide you today as just in the 10 years I've been selling scopes the world is a different place with the technological rise of the Asians offering us features in scopes unobtainable at reasonable prices just a few years ago.

Today we engage with customers to suss out how far down the road they intend to go and where is their current level of competency then suggest a best bang for buck fit for today's and their future needs. Oh of course we could instead sell what meets their needs now and hope within long they outgrow it, as one does after acquiring tools do to one specific job.
Instead it's wise to set a budget and nut out the features you need now plus any fruits that will serve you in the future.

Right now Peter if you've never had a scope I understand you can't list features wished as you don't know what the modern scope can do having never had one. DSO's today are so feature packed they can do far more than display wiggly lines.
20 years back when I got my first it was an old CRO that required fixing before it could be used and fixing again several times in the few years I owned it so I vowed never to have such an unreliable scope again that robbed so much of my hobby time rather than let me progress with projects.
Don't get anything too cheap or your twilight years will be frustrated by it instead of gaining the enjoyment of watching wiggly lines previously totally invisible to you.
Happy hunting.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 04:42:22 am by tautech »
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Offline jonpaul

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2022, 05:42:35 am »
advise a cheap and simple vintage analog CRT scope,

Hameg in EU can be found for 5..100€ 10..100 MHz have several in Paris


Best scopes are Tektronix 465/475/B, 22xx series and 2465B, 2467B.

100..500$

Suggest that you join groups.io forums tektronix, Tektronix2 and instruments FS.WTB

The Chinese scopes have many potential pitfalls and a digital scope is not a substitute for the classic analog scope CRT

Just the ramblings of an old retired EE

Jon

In US the ham radio flea market and ads in ARRL, QST, etc

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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2022, 11:44:55 am »
advise a cheap and simple vintage analog CRT scope,

Hameg in EU can be found for 5..100€ 10..100 MHz have several in Paris


Best scopes are Tektronix 465/475/B, 22xx series and 2465B, 2467B.

100..500$

Suggest that you join groups.io forums tektronix, Tektronix2 and instruments FS.WTB

The Chinese scopes have many potential pitfalls and a digital scope is not a substitute for the classic analog scope CRT

Just the ramblings of an old retired EE

Jon

In US the ham radio flea market and ads in ARRL, QST, etc

Dear Jon,

Everybody here has enormous respect for you, so nobody has heart to speak up.

Analog scopes today are like vintage cars: thing of beauty but of limited practical value.
We all love them, and very few use them for actual work. Or if they do sometimes, they still have digital scopes for "all other"stuff CRT scope cannot do..

What little are available to purchase had have prices going through the roof ( they are "vintage") and most of them are not working or have been subjected to unqualified repairs and all kinds of abuse.. They are also getting harder and harder to keep running.

Fact is than in last 10 years everything changed..

For 500$ you can buy brand new scopes (with warranty) that are very good.

Digital scope is not only substitute for CRT scope but a many times more powerful instrument that can capture many things CRT cannot and measure many things CRT scope cannot.

And in low end scopes (sub 1000$) likes of Rigol and Siglent make better scopes than "non-Chinese" do for 2-3X times the money.. That also changed in last 10ish years..

I hope you don't get offended,

Respectfully,
Sinisa
 
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Offline jonpaul

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2022, 12:39:52 pm »
Rebonjour Cher 2N3033/ Sinisa !

many thanks for the kind notes, I comprend completely and share your reaction.

I am open to use any instruments or tools vintage or new, analog or digital.

In the big lab since 1970ss, we have Tektronix 7000 and 465, 475, as well as  246x portable.

We can only marvel at the fine engineering and long life of these 1980s..1990s machines.
I find great enjoyment from the calibration and maintenance of these vintage scopes.

For many applications the digital scopes are much better eg single shot capture and image export to a PC.
We have Yokogawa DL1740 and DL7440 via close connection to the Japanese.

Certainly,  beginners with limited acess to ham radio Fleas and silent keys, the latest digital scopes from China are popular.

personally,  being burned by some Chinese equipment,  I am wary of it in general.

The old analog scopes are fine for 95% of use and users.....
As mentioned, we have found perfectly working 1 or 2 channel 10..20 MHz Hameg German scopes for €5, €25 in  Paris at street sales and fleas.  Another source is sites like Craigslist in USA or Le Bon Coin or PAP in France.

So,  my viewpoint is through the lens of an ancient electronic dinasour, (EE 68')  and over the decades, I have accumulated a huge laboratoire of classic HP, Tektronix, Fluke, Genrad equipment.
Thus, I have no hands on experience with the Chinese digital scopes popular nowadays.

Hope that this note is interesting to you and others.....

Back to the lab....working on a valve microphone preamplifier 6SL7 !  see pix of SIGSALY Quantizer....

Bon Week-end

Jon

« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 12:43:02 pm by jonpaul »
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Offline markone

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2022, 02:12:54 pm »

-snip
For many applications the digital scopes are much better eg single shot capture and image export to a PC.

For many applications DSO are the ONLY solution, i.e. if you have to take measurements, log data, save screens, make automated sequences and so on.
Apart that nowaday I cannot see a single reason to put on the table a bulky, heavy, smelly, uncalibrated, power hungry, etc anchor boat, even if it's for free.

It's a lot of time that i do not see one in electronic labs and there is a reason for that.


Certainly,  beginners with limited acess to ham radio Fleas and silent keys, the latest digital scopes from China are popular.

Latest DSOs from China are a lot popular not only among hobbiest but also in industry sector, they disrupted a market that was dominated by Tektronix, a company that was thinking to be able to sell DSOs with few kpts at whopping prices for ever.

Now it's a sinking ship.

personally,  being burned by some Chinese equipment,  I am wary of it in general.

Sure there is a lot of trash in the market, but if you limit your choice to Rigol & Siglent, in the low and the medium segments of the market you obtain much better product price / quality ratio and service (i.e. it happened that Keysight refused to service final users instrumentation).

Coming back to the OP, as a Ham in search of a DSO i would invest in a dual channel instrument with at least 2GS/s and bandwidth "upgradable" to 200-300Mhz, there are nice solutions from both Siglent & Rigol.
 
 
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Offline Andy2

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2022, 02:57:20 pm »
I've only speed-read this thread, so sorry if someone has already made this point. If you are a radio amateur (like me), at some point you will probably use your 'scope to view your outgoing signal. This is a trivial task for an analogue scope, but for DSO's it can be a difficult job and it will start aliasing and you'll not get the familiar 'AM envelope' display. The way around this is to get one with plenty of screen memory (ie it can store lots of 'points'). My Rigol has 14 million points and will show a good AM display on 160m (1.8 MHz) and up to maybe 10 MHz or so, but beyond this it looks worse than my old Tek analogue.  So when you are inspecting the manufacturer's boast-sheets, look for the 'Memory Depth' spec and aim high. Hope this helps, it had me befuddled for ages....
Andy.
 

Offline baldurn

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2022, 04:43:13 pm »
I've only speed-read this thread, so sorry if someone has already made this point. If you are a radio amateur (like me), at some point you will probably use your 'scope to view your outgoing signal. This is a trivial task for an analogue scope, but for DSO's it can be a difficult job and it will start aliasing and you'll not get the familiar 'AM envelope' display. The way around this is to get one with plenty of screen memory (ie it can store lots of 'points'). My Rigol has 14 million points and will show a good AM display on 160m (1.8 MHz) and up to maybe 10 MHz or so, but beyond this it looks worse than my old Tek analogue.  So when you are inspecting the manufacturer's boast-sheets, look for the 'Memory Depth' spec and aim high. Hope this helps, it had me befuddled for ages....

I am not sure what you are doing wrong, but my DSO has no trouble at all displaying a typical AM signal. Here is a photo of a 29 MHz (10 meters) signal modulated by 1 kHz at 50%:

 
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Offline oldjackbob

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2022, 05:20:06 pm »
Peter,

I'm also a ham and have been struggling with the exact same questions as yourself. A week ago I decided to pull the trigger on a Rigol MSO5074 for $799, it came with the free MSO5000-BND software bundle, I did the upgrade hack (super easy hack, I can send you the 3 small files to put on a USB thumbdrive) and now I've got a 350 MHZ 4-channel mixed signal scope with 8Gsa/s sampling rate capable of extremely high waveform resolution.

I know that's a bit over your stated budget but my motto is "buy once, cry once".

Mark
 

Offline markone

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2022, 05:30:12 pm »
I would say that now we have the proof that third millennium sub grand DSOs are able to provide a fancy view of typical HAM signals  :D

Jokes aside, as I was saying a modern medium segment 2GS/s 200MHz BW from Rigol / Siglent fits the puporse, if you look to David's Youtube DSO review you can also spot models that have nicer analog persistence emulation with AM modulated signals.   
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2022, 07:29:29 pm »
It's worth remembering that these low cost hobbyist oriented scopes tend to hold their value pretty well, if you take good care of it you should be able to sell it for a substantial fraction of what you paid for it should you decide that it no longer meets your needs, at least that's true of the more reputable brands like Rigol and Siglent. Don't be too paralyzed by indecision, any scope is better than no scope.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2022, 07:35:34 pm »
advise a cheap and simple vintage analog CRT scope,

Hameg in EU can be found for 5..100€ 10..100 MHz have several in Paris


Best scopes are Tektronix 465/475/B, 22xx series and 2465B, 2467B.

I have a Tek 465B that I've had for many years, it's a great instrument and I have no plans to part with it, but frankly I rarely ever use it anymore since I have a newer DSO. The CRO is as someone else mentioned, a lot like a classic car. It spends most of its time in storage but I pull it out now and then for some nostalgia or when I have a specific need such as XY mode that it does better than any DSO. These days I only recommend analog scopes to beginners if it's very cheap and the only scope they can afford. Even the newest analog scopes one is likely to find now are decades old.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2022, 07:58:02 pm »
advise a cheap and simple vintage analog CRT scope,

Hameg in EU can be found for 5..100€ 10..100 MHz have several in Paris


Best scopes are Tektronix 465/475/B, 22xx series and 2465B, 2467B.

I have a Tek 465B that I've had for many years, it's a great instrument and I have no plans to part with it, but frankly I rarely ever use it anymore since I have a newer DSO. The CRO is as someone else mentioned, a lot like a classic car. It spends most of its time in storage but I pull it out now and then for some nostalgia or when I have a specific need such as XY mode that it does better than any DSO. These days I only recommend analog scopes to beginners if it's very cheap and the only scope they can afford. Even the newest analog scopes one is likely to find now are decades old.
IMHO one of the $50 pocket scopes from Aliexpress is a better buy compared to any analog scope unless you are desperate for bandwidth. My first oscilloscope was a 20MHz one which costed US$900 in today's money. Even one of the $50 pocket scopes runs circles around it. Most annoying to me was the inability to visualise low frequency signals.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline alm

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2022, 09:29:55 pm »
Latest DSOs from China are a lot popular not only among hobbiest but also in industry sector, they disrupted a market that was dominated by Tektronix, a company that was thinking to be able to sell DSOs with few kpts at whopping prices for ever.

Now it's a sinking ship.
Tektronix was dominating the market when analog scopes were cutting edge. HP/Agilent/Keysight and Lecroy started eating their lunch with much more advanced digital scopes in the nineties, long before Rigol scopes become known in the west.

Now Tektronix appears to be catching up, and their latest models are getting decent reviews. Obviously they are not aiming to compete in the sub-$1000 price bracket. So I'd argue reports of their demise are greatly exaggerated.

Online Martin72

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2022, 09:55:44 pm »
Quote
Obviously they are not aiming to compete in the sub-$1000 price bracket.

Like all other "Global Players", because they simply don´t need it.
And yes, the last 10yrs were a technical revolution for hobbyists to get cheap but usable DSOs.
But there are still differences between "cheap" and the rest, there are features for example our very old lecroys got, new scopes won´t have.
Until you pay for them as much as the old lecroy had cost 25yrs ago.
And the enthusiasm goes so far that people complain when a scope for 400 euros can't do everything that a scope for 20 times the price can, which I find sometimes very funny to read.. ;)



Offline nctnico

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2022, 10:22:00 pm »
Latest DSOs from China are a lot popular not only among hobbiest but also in industry sector, they disrupted a market that was dominated by Tektronix, a company that was thinking to be able to sell DSOs with few kpts at whopping prices for ever.

Now it's a sinking ship.
Tektronix was dominating the market when analog scopes were cutting edge. HP/Agilent/Keysight and Lecroy started eating their lunch with much more advanced digital scopes in the nineties, long before Rigol scopes become known in the west.
Not quite true. Tektronix' TDS210 / TDS220 where real game changers that put 1Gs/s realtime sampling scopes on the desk of electronics engineers as a true replacement of analog oscilloscopes. And designed to a low price point as well. The whole board is like the size of 2 credit cards. I have not seen any of the low cost Chinese brands achieve such high levels of integration.

Quote
Now Tektronix appears to be catching up, and their latest models are getting decent reviews. Obviously they are not aiming to compete in the sub-$1000 price bracket. So I'd argue reports of their demise are greatly exaggerated.
Agreed. Tektronix still knows how to make good oscilloscopes. And they are not the only ones who have been milking old architectures.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 10:24:24 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline JOFlaherty

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Re: Oscilloscope Dilemma
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2022, 12:58:36 am »
With a modern digital scope, you get an accurate frequency counter and time interval meter built in, and on-screen display of time and voltage values without having to count divisions on the screen. 
 


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