Author Topic: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?  (Read 10506 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ChrisThePackRatTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
  • Country: gb
Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« on: September 26, 2021, 03:38:43 pm »
Hello all,

I'm looking for a replacement oscilloscope since I had to flog my last one. It was an old cost-cut version of a Telequipment but the documentation and the boards were completely different so I was out without a paddle regards repair and maintenance.

So I'm looking for something better documented and more open to repairability, but in an affordable range. I'm not looking for all bells and whistles, something with your standard controls would suffice for my purposes.

Any informed recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16642
  • Country: 00
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2021, 03:42:27 pm »
Just buy one that's reliable - no repairs needed!
 

Offline ChrisThePackRatTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
  • Country: gb
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2021, 04:09:27 pm »
But that's not specifically what I'm looking for in this post.
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16642
  • Country: 00
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2021, 04:20:14 pm »
But that's not specifically what I'm looking for in this post.

OK, but what does "affordable" mean in that post?

The Tektronix TAS 485 is maybe the most repairable old 'scope but a decent one will cost you as much as a brand new DSO.

I'm not looking for all bells and whistles, something with your standard controls would suffice for my purposes.

Basic stuff like number of channels and bandwidth would be good to know as well...
« Last Edit: September 26, 2021, 04:24:26 pm by Fungus »
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 26896
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2021, 04:36:41 pm »
Basic stuff like number of channels and bandwidth would be good to know as well...
And a budget! But then again, spending over 30 euro/dollar/pounds on an analog scope is a waste of money. Aliexpress is filled with small DSOs that cost very little and do a much better job compared to any old analog clunker scope.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2021, 04:38:54 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16642
  • Country: 00
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2021, 05:08:11 pm »
spending over 30 euro/dollar/pounds on an analog scope is a waste of money.

Yep. Those things are old. We're at the point where no amount of "repairablilty" is going to save any money in the long term.

Another thing is whether you're buying one just because you like the green glow, the clicky switches, the heat they give off, reading the service manuals, opening them up to poke around inside, etc. In that case just get an old Tektronix and ignore the prices.
 
The following users thanked this post: nctnico

Offline ChrisThePackRatTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
  • Country: gb
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2021, 08:03:09 pm »
Sorry, affordable would be ~£300 or under.

Minimum bandwidth of 20MHz and two channels unless the budget affords for more.

I understand the idea with getting something considered more reliable, better economy, but even reliable brands break.

I just don't want to go through the whole "just buy a new one" malarkey.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 26896
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2021, 08:46:33 pm »
I just don't want to go through the whole "just buy a new one" malarkey.
And yet that is the most sensible thing to do. Spending £300 on an analog scope is insane if you just want to have an oscilloscope for making measurements. No offense intended but your question is like ' I'm looking for a model-T Ford to drive 50 miles to work every day'.

Analog scopes went obsolete decades ago so everything on the market is more or less junk or some kind of restauration / museum piece. Even the early DSOs are not worth buying these days.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2021, 08:49:20 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline ChrisThePackRatTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
  • Country: gb
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2021, 08:53:51 pm »
I do want to buy a replacement for my other unrepairable one.

I'm not a purist for vintage equipment or anything. I'll buy modern and new if I can, I just want something that's also repairable.

Surely just because something is brand new doesn't mean it can't be repaired if it breaks.

By avoiding the "just buy a new one" malarkey, I'm talking about in the event that the scope that I buy breaks. I prefer to be able to fix it.
 

Offline tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28328
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2021, 08:59:28 pm »
I do want to buy a replacement for my other unrepairable one.

I'm not a purist for vintage equipment or anything. I'll buy modern and new if I can, I just want something that's also repairable.

Surely just because something is brand new doesn't mean it can't be repaired if it breaks.

By avoiding the "just buy a new one" malarkey, I'm talking about in the event that the scope that I buy breaks. I prefer to be able to fix it.
As admirable as this pursuit may be it's just not reality with any modern equipment.

At a time when I acquired scopes to fix unless full documentation was available I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole yet in 8 years of selling so called modern crap not one has failed outside warranty.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 
The following users thanked this post: egonotto

Offline MadTux

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 785
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2021, 09:18:20 pm »
Basic stuff like number of channels and bandwidth would be good to know as well...
And a budget! But then again, spending over 30 euro/dollar/pounds on an analog scope is a waste of money. Aliexpress is filled with small DSOs that cost very little and do a much better job compared to any old analog clunker scope.
LOL, just earned 500$ fixing old machinery and used a Tek7854/7A22 for measureing signals on servo amplifier
Try that with china aligarbage and have fun with your smoking pile of crap!
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 26896
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2021, 09:47:52 pm »
I do want to buy a replacement for my other unrepairable one.

I'm not a purist for vintage equipment or anything. I'll buy modern and new if I can, I just want something that's also repairable.

Surely just because something is brand new doesn't mean it can't be repaired if it breaks.

By avoiding the "just buy a new one" malarkey, I'm talking about in the event that the scope that I buy breaks. I prefer to be able to fix it.
As admirable as this pursuit may be it's just not reality with any modern equipment.

At a time when I acquired scopes to fix unless full documentation was available I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole yet in 8 years of selling so called modern crap not one has failed outside warranty.
The reality is that there is a lot less in a modern DSO that can fail. And if something fails, then it is likely power supply related and power supplies are easy to repair even without schematics. What is also a good way is to get datasheets for the chips used. Usually there is a schematic in there with the typical application. More often than not the circuit in front of you is the same.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
The following users thanked this post: egonotto

Offline MadTux

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 785
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2021, 10:11:38 pm »
Sure and if the PSU fails in catastrophic mode, like the one in HP9825 from Curious Marc and feeds overvoltage to all the digital stuff, because some beancounter saved a few pennies at the crowbar circuitry, you're in big trouble.

Furthermore it's far from always PSU trouble, if it has corrupted firmware, dead flash/antifuse FPGA or some ASIC decides to fry, have fun with your $$$ brick, especially if it's made by Keysight, who is known to give a shit about people with their old instruments.

If old school analog scope gets bricked, it's easy fix 99% of times. In the other 1%, I can get a new old one cheaply from ebay and use the other one as a source for parts. If recent, expensive DSO fries, not much source of parts, except you have 20'000$ BGA soldering machine to change ASICs.

It's also that in maybe 80% of cases, an old analog scope is all that's needed, then maybe 10% where digital storage is handy and the other 10% where neither works, because you need a logic analyzer or you just can't probe the signals.
But with old scope, you get reliability, price, fixability and great universal plugins (Tek 7000 and 5xx), which you don't have on new stuff.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2021, 10:13:10 pm by MadTux »
 

Offline BrokenYugo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1102
  • Country: us
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2021, 10:26:11 pm »
Do you want to repair scopes as a hobby, or own one as a tool?

I'm reminded of the last few old guy holdouts who insist on driving pre EFI vehicles "I can fix points ignition or a carburetor roadside", they sure can, as can I, and I sure can drive on by in my more modern cars that have never stranded me due to an ignition or fueling problem.

nctnico makes a very good point, failure in this stuff is likely to be power supply, and these modern DSOs run off a far simpler supply than an old analog scope.

I wouldn't put more than $50 USD into a low bandwidth CRO to be used as a tool.
 

Offline Runco990

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 244
  • Country: us
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2021, 11:05:47 pm »
Well, you could pick up one of these.  Stupid simple, very reliable, super simple to work on.
Usually they develop a few cracked solder joints. 

A simple work horse.  And still pretty cheap.  As simple as it gets.
 
The following users thanked this post: ch_scr

Offline kcbrown

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 880
  • Country: us
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2021, 12:29:26 am »
Hello all,

I'm looking for a replacement oscilloscope since I had to flog my last one. It was an old cost-cut version of a Telequipment but the documentation and the boards were completely different so I was out without a paddle regards repair and maintenance.

It's not clear to me how this makes your scope irreparable.  Can you post a photo of the scope so that we know what you're up against here?

It's an old scope so at most I'd expect you'd have TTL logic chips to deal with for some of it, but more likely it's all just jellybean analog parts with the occasional opamp thrown in.  If you've already found the dead component(s) then it's just a question of determining what they are and what the suitable replacements are.

I likewise wouldn't expect it to make use of multilayer boards, which is about the only thing I can think of that would make tracing the circuits involved difficult.

And seeing how you're looking for a scope that is going to require roughly the same level of skill to repair anyway, where the only difference is the availability of schematics, it seems reasonable that you should attempt repair of the scope you have.

Of course, if you need another scope in order to be able to repair this one (a distinct possibility), then of course your question becomes rather relevant.  But if that's the case, you can just as easily pick up something like one of the new Owon HDS242 scopemeters for less than $200.  With that you get a highly portable (because it's handheld) 2 channel scope with basic triggering and 40 MHz bandwidth, which should easily be enough to make it possible to troubleshoot and fix your existing scope.  And because it's handheld and a DMM, you may find that it's more useful than any old analog scope would be, just due to its convenience.

Either way, you've got lots of options, but in the end I'm having trouble seeing why you can't just fix the one you've got.

One other thing: if you can find another identical scope, you can just pick that one up and use the current one as a source of parts if nothing else.
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16642
  • Country: 00
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2021, 04:33:28 am »
LOL, just earned 500$ fixing old machinery and used a Tek7854/7A22 for measureing signals on servo amplifier
Try that with china aligarbage and have fun with your smoking pile of crap!

a) Nobody's suggesting the $50 crap DSOs. For a Budget of 300 pounds you can get a Rigol or Siglent.

b) Maybe you need to revise your probing technique. A bit of basic knowledge goes a long way instead of crossing your fingers and hoping the 'scope can take it.
 

Offline ChrisThePackRatTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
  • Country: gb
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2021, 05:07:01 am »
It was an off-brand version of a Telequipment D54/55. Only label on it was Electroplan, which I couldn't even find any history for never mind a manual.

I got the smudgy scans of the telequipment manual but the boards and components didn't match up at all between the scope itself and the manual from what I could make out. I figure it was cost-cut version of the original design.

Along with the ropey documentation, there was no clear culprit to the issue. The trace was speed up on one side of the display and eventually the trace was gone entirely. Inspecting it on and off for a few days revealed nothing. I eventually gave up and flogged it online. I hadn't found one like it before or since.

That's chiefly why I'm looking at a new scope with the capacity for maintenance and repair. Whether it's analog or digital doesn't much matter as long as it can be fixed if and when it's outwith warranty.
 

Offline tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28328
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2021, 05:55:01 am »
It was an off-brand version of a Telequipment D54/55. Only label on it was Electroplan, which I couldn't even find any history for never mind a manual.

I got the smudgy scans of the telequipment manual but the boards and components didn't match up at all between the scope itself and the manual from what I could make out. I figure it was cost-cut version of the original design.

Along with the ropey documentation, there was no clear culprit to the issue. The trace was speed up on one side of the display and eventually the trace was gone entirely. Inspecting it on and off for a few days revealed nothing. I eventually gave up and flogged it online. I hadn't found one like it before or since.

That's chiefly why I'm looking at a new scope with the capacity for maintenance and repair. Whether it's analog or digital doesn't much matter as long as it can be fixed if and when it's outwith warranty.
And where you trying to diagnose such a fault without another scope ? Good luck with that !

Sweep problems are not that uncommon especially in CRO's of that age however it's also uncommon to need a manual to fix them if you have a handle on the operating principles of a CRO for which a timebase sweep is just a timed linear ramp waveform driven to an offset and applied to the horizontal plates where in most points in the circuitry it can be quite simply be fault found from either the plates or the sweep gen......but you need a scope !

My first scope was a Telequipment D83 and apart from its needle sharp trace I don't miss it a bit and have left CRO's behind where they belong ..... in scope history.  :box:



Avid Rabid Hobbyist
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Offline ChrisThePackRatTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
  • Country: gb
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2021, 03:42:55 pm »
Yeah no luck, and I didn't have the money at the time for another scope.

So now I'm looking for something better documented, so I don't have to go hunting for a blurry, tangentially related manual for something with no history.

Any recommendations?

 

Offline Keith956

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 124
  • Country: gb
    • peardrop design systems
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2021, 04:19:40 pm »
Tek 465B? I have one I bought about 30 years ago, it was probably 10 years old then, and has been very reliable. And there are enough of them around that spares can be found. I have other scopes but it's still a workhorse.
 

Offline Andrew_Debbie

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 599
  • Country: gb
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2021, 05:56:05 pm »
As others have said, you need a working  scope to troubleshoot whatever you buy.   So you need two, not one. 

Tex 465, 545, 535, 7000 series, -- whatever you find on eBay at a reasonable price and is inside your comfort range for repairs.    They pretty much all have hard to find parts.  Some more than others.


Or you can buy a disposable Hantek as your 'second' scope.   
 

Online PaulAm

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 938
  • Country: us
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2021, 07:04:23 pm »
Heck, you could go older than that with a Tek 453 or 454.  I have a 453 I still use often and I have NEVER had to open it up, it just keeps on running.  My favorite of that series is the 454A and I managed to snag one off of craigslist for $25 a couple years back.  I'll get around to restoring it one of these days.

The only real unobtanium parts are tunnel diodes and a) they do not fail very often but b) you can find them if you look hard enough.  Everything else is discrete.  I've never had to replace any of those, either.  The early ones used nuvisters, later ones used FETs if that makes any difference.

I'm not completely in the dark ages, I have a LeCroy 1 GHz DSO which I love and wouldn't trade , but 90% of the time the cheap Tek is all I need.
 

Offline tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28328
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2021, 08:56:03 pm »
Yeah no luck, and I didn't have the money at the time for another scope.

So now I'm looking for something better documented, so I don't have to go hunting for a blurry, tangentially related manual for something with no history.

Any recommendations?
Once I was in exactly your shoes and quickly learnt that despite the great old manuals available there was only so far you could go fixing a scope without another one.  :horse:
Schematics with DC voltages listed really help but only so far as things like sweep linearity can only be checked with another scope......as you discovered.
So after investing in my first DSO many more scopes were able to be taken on for repair however the reliability of older scopes was always a problem however many owners of them probably didn't have the sad run I saw with many but you have to decide if you wanna have to repair your scope before you can tackle a project which only adds to blood pressure and frustration in your pursuits in the fabulous industry.

Your budget is quite sufficient to get you a quite reasonable DSO which will give many years of trouble free service.
Dip your toes in the water and come on in, the water's fine.  :)
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Offline DBMandrake

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 21
  • Country: gb
Re: Oscilloscope Recommendations - Affordable yet repairable?
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2021, 10:15:48 pm »
But that's not specifically what I'm looking for in this post.

OK, but what does "affordable" mean in that post?

The Tektronix TAS 485 is maybe the most repairable old 'scope but a decent one will cost you as much as a brand new DSO.

I'm not looking for all bells and whistles, something with your standard controls would suffice for my purposes.

Basic stuff like number of channels and bandwidth would be good to know as well...

Yeah no luck, and I didn't have the money at the time for another scope.

So now I'm looking for something better documented, so I don't have to go hunting for a blurry, tangentially related manual for something with no history.

Any recommendations?
Once I was in exactly your shoes and quickly learnt that despite the great old manuals available there was only so far you could go fixing a scope without another one.  :horse:
Schematics with DC voltages listed really help but only so far as things like sweep linearity can only be checked with another scope......as you discovered.
So after investing in my first DSO many more scopes were able to be taken on for repair however the reliability of older scopes was always a problem however many owners of them probably didn't have the sad run I saw with many but you have to decide if you wanna have to repair your scope before you can tackle a project which only adds to blood pressure and frustration in your pursuits in the fabulous industry.

Your budget is quite sufficient to get you a quite reasonable DSO which will give many years of trouble free service.
Dip your toes in the water and come on in, the water's fine.  :)
I can relate to the sentiments of the original poster, but time has really moved on in scopes...  :o

In the 80's through to early 2000's I used a variety of reasonable spec analogue scopes for repair/project/ham radio uses - the usual suspects like Philips, (PM3262) Tectronics, (can't remember the model numbers of those) dual channel delayed timebase 100Mhz etc etc, for their day they were decent and worked fine, certainly for repair/troubleshooting work on mostly analogue circuitry.

Then in 2009 I packed my bags and moved across the world and the bench Tectronics scope I still had at that time had to be let go as it was too bulky and expensive to ship overseas in relation to its low value by that time... the only scope I kept, which surely must be a curiousity item / museum piece now, (and a feat of miniaturisation in 1979) was a battery powered Non Linear Systems MS-215:

http://www.byan-roper.org/steve/manuals/NLS/Non-linear_Systems_MS215_Miniscope_Manual.pdf

Despite now being 42 years old (and over 20 years old when I first came into possession of it) it still works fine, aside from the sealed gel cell batteries which have failed for a 2nd time in the 20 years I've had it due to lack of use letting the cells discharge and sit discharged.  :( So someone wanting an old analogue scope to "play around with" which has a schematic which is easily understood and repaired might have fun with one of these - it even has a full circuit diagram in the owners manual!

For the last 10 years I haven't had much need for a scope so I've made do with the MS-215 for the occasional mostly audio work on my own equipment, but obviously there is only so much you can do with a 2" screen.

Recently I needed to repair some audio equipment and realising the gel cells in the MS-215 had failed again and I couldn't be bothered trying to source replacements I decided it was finally time after about 15 years to treat myself to a half decent new scope (and try to get back into electronics more as a hobby) and had a look to see what was available.

That's when it really hit me how much scopes have moved on in the last 20 years and that analogue scopes are basically dead and buried during my absence. :o Of course there were digital scopes 20 or more years ago but not in the price range of your average repair technician, (you looked at them in glossy magazines but didn't own one...) they had significant limitations for analogue signals, and were more useful for their storage / single shot capture abilities but weren't ideal for analogue work especially high RF.

That has all changed. I started out looking at the ubiquitious Rigol DS1054Z as a friend has one, then I found out about the Siglent SDS1104X-U which is basically the same price but arguably a better device, then finally I stretched myself to the SDS1104X-E on the basis that it had additional features that could be unlocked over time that the SDS1104X-U didn't have, as well as better sampling with multiple channels and a few additional features.

So while it was undoubtedly massive overkill for the specific use I had in mind that pushed me to buy a new scope, I was thinking ahead for other things I could use it for and I have already used it for several other applications with great success.

Even though it's still only a low to mid "entry level" scope I'm in love with it and it blows me away what it can do compared to the scopes I've owned in the past that have all been analogue. Even simple stuff like single shot capture and hold or roll mode for very slow signals (which can't be shown on standard persistence analogue scopes) are features that I would have killed for 20 years ago. There are so many features packed into this device it's an unbelievable bargain.

Of course lower end digital scopes do still have some minor drawbacks - the 8 bit A/D resolution can bite you if you're not aware of it - particuarly apparent in X-Y mode, and you need to learn and understand the relationships of sample rate, memory depth etc, to get the best out of it vs an analogue scope where you're really only thinking about timebase and risetime performance of the scope/probe. So there is a learning curve, but it didn't take me long.

This scope will do everything that any scope I've owned before will, do it better and do 10x as many other things on top of that. In some ways I wish I'd made the jump a few years ago, on the other hand I didn't really have a need until more recently and the last 5 years seems to have been a particularly good time for entry level DSO's where the prices have come down dramatically and performance has gone up dramatically to the point where it becomes a no-brainer.

To the original poster - by all means find a cheap analogue scope as something to play around with - I won't be getting rid of my MS-215 any time soon, and one day I will replace its faulty gel cells to get it working again as I still think it's a kinda cool relic of the past due to its tiny size and portability, but for actual work and getting things done a modern DSO - even a good entry level one like the SDS1104X-E is simply amazing compared to any analogue scope you will have used and you won't be disapointed. It's a completely different world.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2021, 10:41:33 pm by DBMandrake »
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf