Oscilloscope - used vs new - revival

[tggzzz]

Thanks for reporting back.

With that you will be able to learn a lot about scopes and electronics.

As with any tool, you will find it has limitations. With skill and imagination you will be able to work around many of the limitations. When you find something you cannot workaround, you will have discovered what you need, and you will be in a better postition to specify what your next tool must have.

Do make sure you have appropriate probes for your task, and use the scope safely. See https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/library-2/scope-probe-reference-material/ for practical and safety pointers. At a quick glance that scope appears to be one of the few which avoid the traditional dangers when probing near mains - but you should RTFM about that! If that really is the case then you will probably want to keep that scope even if you buy another.

[wizard69]

But after I've done some research, I will totally consider memory depth for my next "real/pro" purchase.

Lots of memory is good but some of the best oscilloscopes really don't have much memory (Keysight), they're just better at being able to capture the interesting parts of the signal.

It's the law of diminishing returns IMHO. Being able to stop the scope and still see the trace is the killer feature of a DSO over a CRO. Then having 10k points over just a screen full. Then having 1M points over 10k points. But the benefit of having 100M points over 1M points isn't really such a step change, more of a nice to have.

I sometimes get involved in the use of a scope that isn't exactly electronics.  For example phase adjustments and timing setup on high speed packaging machinery.    These are not MHz class signals but interestingly how a storage scope behaves can be interesting in these low speed signal.

The other thing about the Keysights is the automatic management of deep memory, having the option of manual configuration taken away from you actually improves your workflow, and the scope always uses all of its memory anyway. With other scopes, particularly Tek, I find myself continually having to adjust the memory depth for each situation, not least because it's so darned slow. It's difficult to fall in love with another scope once you've experienced a Keysight.

I've never had the pleasure of a Keysight but I have to wonder if your experiences might align with mind in that sometimes you really wish that the scope would be have differently when capturing digitally.   It has been sometime since I had to deal with this struggle, so I can't remember what the exact frustration was but it seemed to involve a mode switch as the time based was slowed down.

[Howardlong]

The other thing about the Keysights is the automatic management of deep memory, having the option of manual configuration taken away from you actually improves your workflow, and the scope always uses all of its memory anyway. With other scopes, particularly Tek, I find myself continually having to adjust the memory depth for each situation, not least because it's so darned slow. It's difficult to fall in love with another scope once you've experienced a Keysight.

I've never had the pleasure of a Keysight but I have to wonder if your experiences might align with mind in that sometimes you really wish that the scope would be have differently when capturing digitally.   It has been sometime since I had to deal with this struggle, so I can't remember what the exact frustration was but it seemed to involve a mode switch as the time based was slowed down.

There is some mutuality between the automatic memory management, and the fact that Keysight Infiniivision scopes have a very responsive UI. On Teks, for example, as soon as you start using deep memory, they become sluggish. Once you start adding a serial decode, which for me is a very common use case, you have to start weighing up the pros and cons of having a 10kpt buffer (reasonably fast) compared to a 100k, 1M or 20Mpt buffer (increasingly like swimming in treacle). With the Keysight, it's always responsive, not just the UI, but the decode too, so there's no downside to it using the entire memory.

In a recent firmware update, Keysight introduced Digitizer functionality on their 3000T series that does let you manually set both the sample rate (from 2kSa/s to 5GSa/s in 24 steps) and memory depth (from 200pts to 4Mpts is 16 steps) independently. I've never found the need for it, but I'd be interested to understand the use cases for it.

[Berni]

Im guessing the "digitizeer functionality" is useful for people who run it as part of a automated test setup over SCPI commands. You might want to run at certain exact sample rate that your software wants to use and you might not want to transfer so much data to use full memory.

But yeah this UI responsiveness is something that is hard to put into the numbers of a datasheet. Just simply if someone places a bunch of different scopes on your bench and tells you "use whichever one you want" you will end up using the one with the quickest UI even if it might not be the highest performance scope. You can tolerate a slow UI for times where you need a really high spec scope with like 40GS/s and 8GHz of bandwidth since whatever you measure with such a scope probably also needs a ton of fancy probing setup anyway, so whats a few more seconds of pushing buttons on a scope.

[Howardlong]

if someone places a bunch of different scopes on your bench and tells you "use whichever one you want" you will end up using the one with the quickest UI even if it might not be the highest performance scope.

This. I have a 20GHz scope on the bench stack ready to go, but it gets used <0.5% of the time.

[Analog4]

After reading forums and reviews I tried and returned a Rigol DS1202Z-E. It seemed slow and clunky. One of the major problems with software scopes is the lack knobs for controls, instead when have hierarchical menu trees. The AC/DC coupling input option should have a mechanical switch, not be just menu software controlled. Clicking Auto, to get the scope in range, should switch the scope from AC coupling to DC coupling.

So now I have ordered a Keysight DSOX1202G, since I still need a small and light scope that can easily be put away. I much prefer the old Tektronix Analog scopes for each of use, but they are too big and heavy for my current needs (and limited space).

Added comment, the reason for choosing a Keysight DSOX1202G scope over other options: Perceived reliability, user ergonomic interface and support.

[Berni]

That is not to say that Keysight scopes have the best UI layout tho. Some settings are still burried pretty deep.

One that bugs me is trigger settings. In all these X series and the old 5000/6000/7000 series have the trigger channel buried under trigger->channel->twist knob to select. On the Keysight Infiniium scopes there is a little trigger section on the front panel that directly sets the basic trigger settings. If you want to trigger on a different channel just hit the 'Source' button until the LED at the desired channel lights up. If you want to change the edge just hit the 'Slope' button until the right combination of edge indicator LEDs above it show up. If you want to go between manual or auto trigger just kit the 'Sweep' and see the appropriate one light up above it. When the trigger fires it also blinks a LED behind the "Trig'd" text to give you a nice visual indication from a far that the trigger is doing its thing.

In my opinion having a dedicated section for trigger like that makes it feel more like a analog scope where you can set the trigger by flipping switches. No dicking around in menus, just hit a button and done. And yet they only do this nice fast trigger panel on the big Windows PC based Infiniium scopes that are clunky and slow to set up due to having to set up everything else trough a touchscreen and countless deep menus (they kinda have to tho due to the amount of features). Yet i can't get these nice trigger buttons on the lower end scopes that i use to for quick poking around where having these quick trigger controls would be the most useful.

[2N3055]

That is not to say that Keysight scopes have the best UI layout tho. Some settings are still burried pretty deep.

One that bugs me is trigger settings. In all these X series and the old 5000/6000/7000 series have the trigger channel buried under trigger->channel->twist knob to select. On the Keysight Infiniium scopes there is a little trigger section on the front panel that directly sets the basic trigger settings. If you want to trigger on a different channel just hit the 'Source' button until the LED at the desired channel lights up. If you want to change the edge just hit the 'Slope' button until the right combination of edge indicator LEDs above it show up. If you want to go between manual or auto trigger just kit the 'Sweep' and see the appropriate one light up above it. When the trigger fires it also blinks a LED behind the "Trig'd" text to give you a nice visual indication from a far that the trigger is doing its thing.

In my opinion having a dedicated section for trigger like that makes it feel more like a analog scope where you can set the trigger by flipping switches. No dicking around in menus, just hit a button and done. And yet they only do this nice fast trigger panel on the big Windows PC based Infiniium scopes that are clunky and slow to set up due to having to set up everything else trough a touchscreen and countless deep menus (they kinda have to tho due to the amount of features). Yet i can't get these nice trigger buttons on the lower end scopes that i use to for quick poking around where having these quick trigger controls would be the most useful.

Well said!

I hear people trumpeting about how Keysight scopes are easy to use.. I have 3000T and it is not easy to use. It took me quite some time to memorize where what is and how to get there.
All these scopes nowadays have just too many options and functions, everything is few menus deep..
Only saving grace is individual chanel controls, but if you pay attention, I realized I lose more time with other functions, like setting up measurements, cursors, triggering....

I'm more and more believer that hieratically well laid out touch screen interface is the only option for faster and more logical work with modern scopes...

[Berni]

I haven't used any of the new touchscreen X series scopes. The one at work is a regular MSOX3000 while i have the old MSO6000 at home. But id imagine a touchscreen does open up a great chance to modernize the UI for quicker access than a front panel could provide.

Not that the UI is particularly bad, lots of scopes have a worse UI, its just that it got a little bit outdated. Things like the HP 54600 series scopes ( https://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1000000812%3Aepsg%3Apro-pn-54624A/portable-dso ) with BW CRT screens already used the UI layout and same front panel and all. It was just brought forward with minimal modifications to support new features. The X series got a bit of a front panel button shuffle but the buttons stayed the same (This is why i keep looking in the wrong area for the butto on the new X series, since im used to where the exact same button with the exact same function is on my old 6000). So its mostly a "if its not broken, don't fix it" kind of scenario. And its okay, but the amount of features is starting to overwhelm this old UI design. But at least they also kept the lightning fast responsiveness off the UI, that responsiveness is what makes Keysight scopes nicer to use than a lot of others.

[Fungus]

In my opinion having a dedicated section for trigger like that makes it feel more like a analog scope where you can set the trigger by flipping switches. No dicking around in menus, just hit a button and done.

I'm more and more believer that hieratically well laid out touch screen interface is the only option for faster and more logical work with modern scopes...

Like this? 

[Berni]

Like this? 

Yeah Micsig went in the right direction but i have other gripes about there UI. We have one at work and its a nice little portable scope but the slow and clunky UI is annoying. Also the auto trigger on it seams to be a bit weird. But i will admit i didn't miss the channel and horizontal knobs as much as i thought i would.

Keysight Infiniium scopes did a reasonably good job with the basic controls there too, if you use a mouse and place the cursor above a control like channel controls or horizontal controls the scroll wheel becomes that control. Making it very intuitive to just mouse over the horizontal scale and scroll to turn it up or down. But getting to the trigger settings with a mouse is still a menu chore.

[Fungus]

Yeah Micsig went in the right direction but i have other gripes about there UI. We have one at work and its a nice little portable scope but the slow and clunky UI is annoying.

I never thought I'd hear the words "Micsig" and "slow and clunky UI" in the same sentence. 

If you try and navigate the menus with the knobs then maybe, but it's a touch screen...

[2N3055]

Berni is right again, while Micisg is going in the right direction, it is far from perfect.

Combined with some unusual choices, it is half the scope it could be...

And to answer to question, I find LeCroy concept to be most logical....