Products > Test Equipment
Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
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tv84:

--- Quote from: 2N3055 on May 10, 2020, 02:33:25 pm ---Depending on mem depth, you can have thousands of previous triggers i history buffers. Siglent adopted LeCroy way of doing this. It basically always runs in segmented mode, except normally has screen updates that slow down retriggering, and when in dedicated segmented mode, display refresh is disabled and retrigger time is much faster.. With this you can do something also useful: You see something on the screen and than go back trough previous captures to see how it behaved before..

--- End quote ---

Ah, OK, also useful indeed.  But, it's all software.  In the end, you get what you pay for...

BUT, I should be able to have a final capture (to fill up memory) after the STOP/SINGLE if I'd choose so... no excuse.   :)
Wuerstchenhund:

--- Quote from: nctnico on May 10, 2020, 02:31:21 pm ---
--- Quote from: Wuerstchenhund link=topic=241336.msg3059728#msg3059728 ---So you're arguing that if the zoom window on a scope is too small that this is something other than a UX/screen size problem?

--- End quote ---
Not just that. Just less buttons to push. How hard is that to see?
--- End quote ---

I'm sorry I can't see it. Both your method and the standard method of "capture long and zoom in" are the same, the only difference is you start with a short timebase and then "zoom out", while the standard method is the other way around. On the scope this works, the number of button presses are the same (+/-1 if anything).  :-//


--- Quote ---See my earlier analogy; you keep insisting to use an automatic gearbox in manual mode only. That is making life harder; not easier.
--- End quote ---

Like most car analogies, it fails here, too. But staying with car analogies for the moment, if anything, it's *you* who want to use the automatic gearbox (memory management) in manual mode only, contrary to the principle deep memory scopes are designed for (which is to capture long sequences and zoom in on the detail). Because in effect, you are arguing that driving a powerful car with automatic transmission in manual mode because of the perceived better acceleration makes absolute sense while on the I-405 during rush hour   :-DD


--- Quote ---And with 4 channels, some bus decoding, a few measurements and cursors active (not an a-typical use case for me) an oscilloscope screen gets crowded quickly no matter how big it is.
--- End quote ---

That's not true. For example, we often have 8 or more traces plus decoding and measurements active, and it's never been an issue for any of our engineers to work with the data. Granted, the scopes we use are not the typical bottom-of-the barrel ones like a DS1054z, but still. For example, the new Keysight UXRs we got can easily display 10 or more different graphs (i.e. traces, math, FFT, whatever), each in their own window and with their own graticule, and it's not overloaded.

I may remember wrong but didn't you buy a LeCroy WavePro 7k some time ago? Even this (some 15+ year old) scope can comfortably display 8 traces + data, all in their separate graticule. If that 10.3" is still to small you can connect say a 24" monitor so you got an even larger screen with an even larger resolution.

Yes, the DS1054z screen is tiny, and while you can display four channels plus serial decode, it's rarely practical because there is only one graticule and it's all overlaid and so small it's barely usable (at least for a guy of my age). My Infiniium 8k isn't much better, the 8.4" screen is just way to small for the old HP GUI and the amount of information it can display (and it's way to small to use the touch functions sensibly). But that is down to the scope's small screen and cramped GUI.

The thing is that if your scope sux when displaying all this shit then it will suck no matter what method you use for performing your measurements. It's what it is.

So yes, your complaint about the zoom trace taking away screen estate is definitely an UX issue.


--- Quote ---Having to add a zoom window doesn't increase comfort so if you can get rid of the zoom window it is a good riddance. I shouldn't even have to point this out.
--- End quote ---

I don't use a scope for "comfort",  I use it to get data. The more data I can get less steps the better. The best approach to need less steps with complkex signals is usually to capture everything and zoom in on the details, often with multiple zoom windows each pointed to a different part of the signal.

At the end of the day, this is what DSOs where designed for, it's how every scope is sold, and it's how every engineer I worked with has been doing stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to do things differently, if it works for you be my guest. But so far I have seen no data which shows any benefit of your method over the standard way, and I don't believe the need of a scope to support such a (clearly very niche) methodology should be very high on a list of recommendations.
nfmax:

--- Quote from: nfmax on May 10, 2020, 01:31:14 pm ---
--- Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on May 10, 2020, 12:04:21 pm ---Take the Rigol DS1000z. We now established that, if you set the memory to manual then it will always record the full selected memory size, no matter what. Great, right?  :-+

But here's the thing: on the DS1000z at least, you can't always access that data. In RUN mode, if you switch to zoom mode, you can still only zoom *in* on the signal on screen, but not zoom *out* to look at off-screen data.

--- End quote ---

On the DSO1014A (a Rigol design), with Zoom off, in Run mode, but with no triggers happening, you can use the horizontal scale & position knobs to move the displayed trace around within the offscreen captured data, and change the displayed duration. If you then turn Zoom on, you get a zoomed view of the currently displayed part of the captured data, even if it was originally off screen. The horizontal scale & position knobs change mode to operate as zoom and pan within the displayed window. Turn off Zoom and you can move to a different part of the captured data, rinse & repeat.

This could actually be quite useful: I didn't know you could do this! Do the more recent Rigols work in the same way? I'll check the X3000T as well now, I'm intrigued.

--- End quote ---

I can confirm the X3000T works in the same way, in Stop/Single mode. If there is off-screen captured data, you can use the horizontal controls in ordinary mode to bring it on screen, then use the zoom mode to zoom in on the displayed part.

One more wrinkle: you only get off-screen data from the 'magic' last capture in Stop/Single mode if the ADC sample rate is 5GHz (with one channel of each pair active). Presumably, if the sample rate is any lower, all the available memory is in use anyway.
tv84:
Gentlemen, you are ALL talking the same language!

Nico starts with zoom in and likes to be able to zoom out. The others start with zoom out and like to be able to zoom in.

It's all the same, but in reverse order.

All the rest are just details (and personal preferences or lifelong habits)!
Gandalf_Sr:
I'm with TV84 on this, it's 6 or one and half a dozen of the other.

To go back to the transmission analogy, I learned to drive on a manual and hated automatics as I always knew (thought) I could do better, even when I had an Audi A6, IMHO I did a better job than the transmission.

Now my 2.0 liter Ford Escape (Kuga) has a transmission that's basically a 6 speed manual operated by a computer, I have a manual mode but never use it as the transmission IS always in the right gear; the new 2020 models have an improved 8 speed version of mine and are reportedly even better.
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