Products > Test Equipment
Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
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2N3055:

--- Quote from: nctnico on May 10, 2020, 09:16:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: nfmax on May 10, 2020, 08:41:41 pm ---One way is as good as the other, maybe, but DSOs are designed, primarily, around zooming in.

--- End quote ---
Says who? Nobody provided any evidence that zooming out is not the way an oscilloscope works. The fact it (recording beyond the screen) is possible on many oscilloscopes suggests that those are actually designed to work this way. It seems Keysight event went through the trouble to make single acquisition mode different compared to normal acquisition mode to support zooming out after a capture by recording beyond the screen. No, the problem is definitely that some seem to be stuck in the idea that you should always zoom in and use exact settings. Even if making those settings and zoom window adds zero benefit to solving the problem at hand.

--- End quote ---

You are now inventing that Keysight memory management was made the way it is "for the purpose of enabling zoom out" while presented with plenty of evidence that it doesn't even work that way when used in a scenario as explicitly designed by you.

You are confusing (at this point obviously intentionally, not wanting to admit the truth) that fact that something exists, is not a proof of intention. That kind of memory setting is probably there because it was easier for manufacturers to implement memory management, or for support for digitizer mode when using scope as digitizer. Or whatever. Only instrument designers know.

And zooming in and out provides same benefit as it provides same data for analysis. That was also proven several times by different people.
Once you capture data, both methods have same data and same analysis capabilities. I said that at the begining, tv84 said it very nicely (and more concise than I'm capable off.)

But, at this point you are insulting those that prefer to use proven techniques and use exact settings as being backwards. 
They are stupid because they read manual. Nice.

Your only  reason to insist on you way is that you refuse to learn how to use zoom mode. You simply hate it, for some reason.
So you devised method that you like better, that works on some scopes, and don't on others.
And you like it, and you find it useful. Good for you. I'm happy for you. And you shared it with us. Thank you for that. That was nice of you. Unfortunately, I couldn't find no merritts in it for me, for what I do, and how I do stuff. But thanks anyway. It was a gesture that counts.
Someone:

--- Quote from: tv84 on May 10, 2020, 02:24:57 pm ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on May 10, 2020, 11:17:42 am ---This is why Keysight are clever in how they do it. They know that in trigger/Auto continuous update mode you don't care about extra data outside the screen, you just want the fastest update rate possible. Only when the user specifically requests STOP or Single mode does the scope then go "a-ha, I don't care about update rate any more, so I'm going to make one last capture using all my available memory, just in case the user wants to do a zoom outside the display window. And I pay no penalty do doing this! Ain't I clever!"

--- End quote ---
I think what Dave concludes here sums all this thread very well. There is no justification to not filling up the whole memory (if it's not already filled) in order to have an after SINGLE/STOP zoom out.

The preferred way people use their scope is somewhat irrelevant (and something of a religion among the gurus here) to that fact.

Never crossed my mind that Siglent (and others) wouldn't implement it that way (like KS seems to do it). Maybe it is a simple change to correct that...

What is the point of having all that memory and not being able to take advantage of it? And if that's an unsurpassable obstacle, why the well do they allow the zoom out? Just to see blank screen? Or for us to validate that the scope doesn't have more samples?
--- End quote ---
Trying to fill the entire XXXM/Gpts on every single acquisition or transition from run->stop is a bad idea, its limiting the ability to capture the triggers the scope is set to (preroll/pretrigger and post trigger filling). You would end up waiting for long periods, or having triggers lost in the preroll. Deep memory is better used when it is asked for, so the user knows they might need to run a search through the capture to find all the events. For nctnico's claiming they want control over the memory depth to exactly match their application, you're proposing having even less control.

Someone:

--- Quote from: tv84 on May 10, 2020, 05:19:40 pm ---Gentlemen, you are ALL talking the same language!

Nico starts with zoom in and likes to be able to zoom out. The others start with zoom out and like to be able to zoom in.

It's all the same, but in reverse order.

All the rest are just details (and personal preferences or lifelong habits)!

--- End quote ---
This is from nctnico's repeated alarmism any time they can drop this "hard fail" of a workflow. Claiming silly things like its impossible to see the fast edge and capture a deep acquisition, or that there are no downsides to having longer record lengths enabled.
Someone:

--- Quote from: nctnico on May 10, 2020, 09:16:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: nfmax on May 10, 2020, 08:41:41 pm ---One way is as good as the other, maybe, but DSOs are designed, primarily, around zooming in.

--- End quote ---
Says who? Nobody provided any evidence that zooming out is not the way an oscilloscope works. The fact it (recording beyond the screen) is possible on many oscilloscopes suggests that those are actually designed to work this way.
--- End quote ---
They can work that way, yes. But you keep insisting that other ways to achieve the same result are completely irrelevant and not to be considered. That may be for you, but you keep bringing this extremely narrow and unusual workflow up as some general advice when its completely your imaginary construction.

If you want to bring it up, then you'll need to actually put out the reasons, constraints, and benefits of your method. This thread is full of people completely not understanding why you keep talking about this the way you do. Smells like trolling.

When put in context its an obvious obscure corner case, it requires all these simultaneously:
* slow/infrequent trigger rate (compared to the detail window being viewed)
* interesting detail at short time window
* possibly interesting detail in the larger capture (but can't rely on another trigger arriving)
* unwillingness to use a zoom windowYou just draw out the discussion endlessly with distractions and nonsense. You've got a workflow that works for you, great. You'd like to see it available on more scopes, great, write to the manufacturers. But stop arguing that this workflow is somehow important for others to consider if you can't motivate us to its benefits.
tautech:

--- Quote from: nctnico on May 10, 2020, 09:16:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: nfmax on May 10, 2020, 08:41:41 pm ---One way is as good as the other, maybe, but DSOs are designed, primarily, around zooming in.

--- End quote ---
Says who?
--- End quote ---
Most of those that disagree with your backwards methodology of captured data analysis.


--- Quote ---Nobody provided any evidence that zooming out is not the way an oscilloscope works. The fact it (recording beyond the screen) is possible on many oscilloscopes suggests that those are actually designed to work this way.
--- End quote ---
Says who ? Your presumption.

--- Quote ---It seems Keysight event went through the trouble to make single acquisition mode different compared to normal acquisition mode to support zooming out after a capture by recording beyond the screen.
--- End quote ---
Actually designed that way ? I very much doubt this when it's a byproduct of the fast update rates made possible by the use of ASIC's when the majority of DSO's use ADC's and much larger memory than most ASIC based DSO's so managing the smaller capture memory in KS's is somewhat simpler to do.

The point is, zooming out is a crutch covering the far better methodology of zooming in.
While it is true many lost cost DSO's with Zoom mode only provide a 50/50 split of the display do indeed limit usability while upper entry level DSOs provide a much better split ratio where buyers of which are more accustomed to not needing so much visual reference of the primary timebase when in fact they want a larger zoomed timebase which is what they primarily work with.


--- Quote ---No, the problem is definitely that some seem to be stuck in the idea that you should always zoom in and use exact settings.
--- End quote ---

Alternatively, others are stuck on zoom out methodology which severely limits the capability of the tool in front of you.

--- Quote ---Even if making those settings and zoom window adds zero benefit to solving the problem at hand.
--- End quote ---
Take your blinkers off and embrace how all DSO's work.

While you entitled to work with a scope in another 'round about' way those that you may train will have a shock if they go to work for others where zooming in is the universally accepted methodology.
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