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Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
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EEVblog:

--- Quote from: Someone on May 10, 2020, 11:41:16 pm ---Because there is no substance to nctnico's endless arguments on this. Wuerstchenhund put it beautifully:

--- Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on May 10, 2020, 04:06:27 pm ---Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to do things differently, if it works for you be my guest. But so far I have seen no data which shows any benefit of your method over the standard way, and I don't believe the need of a scope to support such a (clearly very niche) methodology should be very high on a list of recommendations.
--- End quote ---
We're waiting to have any explanation of why this method makes sense, not just some handwaving excuses around why alternatives are not fit for the overly specific and narrow use case.
--- End quote ---

I don't care about ntcnico's claims, he can defend them himself. But if you cannot see how having capture data outside of the display area could be potentially useful, then I don't know what else to say, apart from "surely the potential advantage is obvious to any experienced engineer." There is no need to give specific examples, use your imagination.
Fungus:

--- Quote from: EEVblog on May 10, 2020, 10:56:35 am ---Obviously with Keysight having the fastest update rate and having this feature, that's obviously not a trade off that needs to be made in basic scope design.

--- End quote ---

Keysights usually have much less memory to process than the others.
Someone:

--- Quote from: SilverSolder on May 11, 2020, 01:57:48 am ---
--- Quote from: Someone on May 10, 2020, 11:41:16 pm ---We're waiting to have any explanation of why this method makes sense, not just some handwaving excuses around why alternatives are not fit for the overly specific and narrow use case.

--- End quote ---

Imagine a camera with a zoom lens.  An experienced photographer does not start with the lens zoomed out to the max, and then only zooms in from that point.  Instead, they start with the lens zoomed somewhere around where their experience tell them is the best zoom factor for the kind of picture they are taking, then they trim the zoom both in and out a little bit from that point while watching the model in the viewfinder, until he/she looks "just right".  It is a fast and fluid way of working with a camera.

--- End quote ---
Again, analogies fall apart. The proposed "zoom out" is nctnico looking at an intentionally zoomed in view, with the expectation that interesting things will be captured in the larger acquisition which isn't being seen (from their prior knowledge of the scene). Nothing at all like you are describing.


--- Quote from: EEVblog on May 11, 2020, 02:20:53 am ---
--- Quote from: Someone on May 10, 2020, 11:41:16 pm ---Because there is no substance to nctnico's endless arguments on this. Wuerstchenhund put it beautifully:

--- Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on May 10, 2020, 04:06:27 pm ---Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to do things differently, if it works for you be my guest. But so far I have seen no data which shows any benefit of your method over the standard way, and I don't believe the need of a scope to support such a (clearly very niche) methodology should be very high on a list of recommendations.
--- End quote ---
We're waiting to have any explanation of why this method makes sense, not just some handwaving excuses around why alternatives are not fit for the overly specific and narrow use case.
--- End quote ---

I don't care about ntcnico's claims, he can defend them himself. But if you cannot see how having capture data outside of the display area could be potentially useful, then I don't know what else to say, apart from "surely the potential advantage is obvious to any experienced engineer." There is no need to give specific examples, use your imagination.

--- End quote ---
I've tried to imagine a reason it could be better than using a zoom window, I can't see it. Having to manipulate the view is more button presses compared to having all that visible on the screen at the same time. I don't deny its useful in some circumstances, but the "arguments" for it are nonsense, and plainly untrue. So much confusion created for almost no benefit.

Just dropping "hard fail" without actually getting others to understand the reasons is the disruptive behaviour.
maginnovision:

--- Quote ---Having to manipulate the view is more button presses
--- End quote ---

That's exactly the point. When I do this I'm debugging something, usually real time systems where you can't alter the timing to debug. So verify one thing and check others away from the trigger after. In my case my triggers are generated by hardware. My other option would be long timebase capture, zoom in to verify item 1 and then zoom out and scroll more to check item 2. It's 1 less step. So one more step at beginning of debug session to set mem depth and then saving steps after. Timing is tight, data is slow.
Someone:

--- Quote from: maginnovision on May 11, 2020, 03:48:53 am ---
--- Quote ---Having to manipulate the view is more button presses
--- End quote ---

That's exactly the point. When I do this I'm debugging something, usually real time systems where you can't alter the timing to debug. So verify one thing and check others away from the trigger after. In my case my triggers are generated by hardware. My other option would be long timebase capture, zoom in to verify item 1 and then zoom out and scroll more to check item 2. It's 1 less step. So one more step at beginning of debug session to set mem depth and then saving steps after. Timing is tight, data is slow.

--- End quote ---
I'm not sure you're completely explaining the possibilities.

0) Set a wide view, zoom in later to see other things (button/knob pressing each time)
1) Set a memory depth manually, view the narrow point of interest with memory around the screen, zoom out later to see other things (slightly more setup, similar button/knob pressing each time)
2) Set a zoom view/window so both are visible at the same time on the screen (once-off setup)
....
option 185468783) use two scopes

Its a world of possibilities, none is always the best choice.
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