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Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk

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EEVblog:

--- Quote from: Elasia on June 12, 2020, 01:09:28 pm ---
--- Quote from: tautech on June 12, 2020, 09:47:53 am ---
--- Quote from: rsjsouza on June 10, 2020, 10:23:31 am ---
--- Quote from: tautech on June 10, 2020, 07:51:11 am ---We look forward to your followup video Dave when you discover the capabilities of 2 obscure buttons on the Siglent front panel.  ;)  :popcorn:

--- End quote ---
Tautech, why not show the steps to achieve this without cheekiness? Remember that people that come across this thread may be trying to make a purchase decision - since they will not have a Siglent in front of them to explore the mysterious buttons, they will go elsewhere.

--- End quote ---
I urge you refresh your memory with study of the first 3 pages in the SDS2kX Plus thread.
Maybe the reasoning behind Siglents acquisition strategy will become clear.

--- End quote ---

He does have a point... I had no clue zoom worked like that even after reading that originally before i picked up the scope and then forgot about it. It's not automatically natural/instinctual to setup and thats why it flummoxes a number of people and to a large degree they have a valid point.  The scope does indeed allow timebase expansion already even exactly how nctnico works and is fanatic about / how Dave expects it to work as well so there is no reason they cant also make it an option to default work in that manor if someone wants it to WITHOUT selecting zoom.. in fact i'd encourage you to give them that direct feedback as it is something i'd like to see as well even after mastering zooming.
The ability to do that is just a matter of hiding the zoom ui components and reduce all of it into a timebase/memory selector based on the same table Martin72 posted.. they dont need to get fancy about it and shouldnt take one of their programmers no  more than a couple of hours to tinker around with the UI
This is only a UI interface problem and NOT with the base functions of the scope itself

--- End quote ---

Forgetting about the zoom out feature entirely, why on earth can't a user who manually selected X memory depth get that memory depth at the timebase they want?

EEVblog:

--- Quote from: nfmax on June 11, 2020, 10:48:30 am ---
--- Quote from: rsjsouza on June 11, 2020, 10:45:24 am ---
--- Quote from: nfmax on June 11, 2020, 07:45:56 am ---A question for anyone with a scope that has the 'history' mode:

Does changing the settings between triggers, e.g. changing vertical or horizontal scale, or enabling an additional channel, clear the history buffer? If not, do such changes get reflected in the on-screen display of the settings, when reviewing history?

--- End quote ---
If I understood it correctly, you mean in Run mode, right? If so, the buffer is discarded when enabling channels on the Rigol DS4014 and I would expect so, given the memory is split between pairs of channels.
In stop mode you can change the vertical and horizontal settings without a problem.

--- End quote ---
Presumably you have to be in Stop mode anyway to look at the history?

--- End quote ---

Yes, or otherwise it's being continually overwritten.

nctnico:

--- Quote from: Elasia on June 12, 2020, 10:35:30 pm ---
--- Quote from: Martin72 on June 12, 2020, 10:30:58 pm ---The beauty of dso is, you can change nearly everything in firmware.
So, in case of siglent, why don´t change the memory management, letting the user allow to choose for himself always the maximum memory - or choosing it to auto.

--- End quote ---

They do.. from their own workflow its fine as it is and even with my own now that i know how it works, its just that everyone else whom dont understand how to use the zoom control to control it.. and thats a great deal of people

--- End quote ---
Nonsense. Zoom mode just wastes precious space when you need to set it to the full memory depth in order to force an oscilloscope to use all the memory. There is no useful information in there to have it on screen with the full memory record. A  crutch is a crutch. An indicator where you are in the memory record (which is standard on many oscilloscopes)  takes less space. Search and (when decoding) the list with decoded packages are way more useful navigation tools. And using the decoded list view in turn requires to do full memory decoding and not decode just what is on screen.

2N3055:

--- Quote from: nctnico on June 13, 2020, 06:20:51 am ---
--- Quote from: Elasia on June 12, 2020, 10:35:30 pm ---
--- Quote from: Martin72 on June 12, 2020, 10:30:58 pm ---The beauty of dso is, you can change nearly everything in firmware.
So, in case of siglent, why don´t change the memory management, letting the user allow to choose for himself always the maximum memory - or choosing it to auto.

--- End quote ---

They do.. from their own workflow its fine as it is and even with my own now that i know how it works, its just that everyone else whom dont understand how to use the zoom control to control it.. and thats a great deal of people

--- End quote ---
Nonsense. Zoom mode just wastes precious space when you need to set it to the full memory depth in order to force an oscilloscope to use all the memory. There is nu useful information in there to have it on screen. Search and (when decoding) the list with decoded packages are way more useful navigation tools. And using the decoded list view in turn requires to do full memory decoding and not just what is on screen.

--- End quote ---

Again you use wording that makes it look like you insist that people are stupid if they don't think like you.

Zoom is useful, and navigational clues and buffer position are crucial piece of it. You just dislike it. On your R&S with large screen and freely configurable zoom size, it well worth the screen space it uses. On Picoscope with excellent zoom implementation it doesn't even use additional screen space at all. It is very easy and intuitive to use.

Try using your web browser on pc without scroll bars... You think people invented dozens of navigation tools in GUIs because they are stupid?

You keep applying fact that "zoom out" is useful for a special case (long, slow triggering captures where you need to get long sequence but need to look at on short packet to know when to stop) and apply it as a general principle.

Get a grip. Zoom out can be useful. We all agree to that by now.

Is it necessary ? No it is not. Very few people use it in isolated situations, and you can as well accomplish same results using zoom mode and/or propper timebase settings. Comfort of any work procedure is highly individual thing.

Should Siglent add full manual control of acquisition memory like R&S has?  Yes by all means, if they can. It is ALWAYS better to have more options. I still would like if they would make zoom mode more configurable to be able to use less screen space as I would rather use that. It is more logical and straightforward to me. And any user of Picoscope and LeCroy.

Would I refuse to buy LeCroy or Siglent scope because of that? No, not by a long shot. I bought Picoscopes despite that, because it is unimportant to me. I just use zoom mode when I need to capture long and look at short time. Period.

What bothers me a bit are these overblown overtones in how this, frankly, non issue, is presented here.

I have an urgent message to Siglent:  Please issue urgent firmware update in which in all menus and user manuals you rename memory depth options so it is clear memory management is Auto with max length. 

Because that is only mistake they made. Unclear terminology. Everything else is one man on a crusade, and a bit of clickbait titles on some videos.

If you guys want to give Siglent (or any other manufacturers) a grief, then please apply energy to get them to fix real problems, real bugs or add real, useful, features. 

For instance Nico says his prefered method to navigate through capture when decoding is to use list or search.
So why he didn't write an write up how R&S RTM3000 (that is very expensive) doesn't have search on most basic I2C, SPI or UART protocols. After few years since  it is released, still doesn't and not a peep from R&S they even have intention to do so. 
NOW, that is a serious problem, and a reason I didn't buy RTM 3000 at the time . It was otherwise my first choice.
Try finding one packet in 10000 manually.

GW Instek has it, Keysight has it on 3000T series and up, Lecroy has it...

That is an example of real reason not to buy that scope, not some buffer management strategy that you might need in obscure workflow that is applicable only now and then.

And my reason why I didn't buy SDS5000X so far is the same. No search on decoded data. You want to give grief to Siglent, bug them about that.
And to make decoding to decode full buffer length, not only what is shown, with and without zoom mode. That is useful. I agree with you Nico on that. That is something Picoscope does right..

Best regards to all..


EEVblog:

--- Quote from: 2N3055 on June 13, 2020, 08:48:27 am ---Get a grip. Zoom out can be useful. We all agree to that by now.

Is it necessary ? No it is not. Very few people use it in isolated situations, and you can as well accomplish same results using zoom mode and/or propper timebase settings. Comfort of any work procedure is highly individual thing.

Should Siglent add full manual control of acquisition memory like R&S has?  Yes by all means, if they can. It is ALWAYS better to have more options. I still would like if they would make zoom mode more configurable to be able to use less screen space as I would rather use that. It is more logical and straightforward to me. And any user of Picoscope and LeCroy.

Would I refuse to buy LeCroy or Siglent scope because of that? No, not by a long shot. I bought Picoscopes despite that, because it is unimportant to me. I just use zoom mode when I need to capture long and look at short time. Period.

What bothers me a bit are these overblown overtones in how this, frankly, non issue, is presented here.

I have an urgent message to Siglent:  Please issue urgent firmware update in which in all menus and user manuals you rename memory depth options so it is clear memory management is Auto with max length. 

Because that is only mistake they made. Unclear terminology. Everything else is one man on a crusade, and a bit of clickbait titles on some videos.

--- End quote ---

Umm, all you points above is practically a verbatim summary of what I said in my videos.

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