Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk

[tautech]

Yet they do that without fault !
All the primary timebase record can be panned through from within the zoomed window.
And Navigate to any time position in the capture too.

An example of the required setup posted in another thread:

I know my english is bad but if you try to decrypt, it is not quite exactly what ntcnico suggests.
You can only see beautiful colors on the top window but you cannot compare this signal with the signal zoomed in the bottom window.
The "dual time base" thing on analog scope that ntcnico is trying to explain.
If you choose very close timebase, you will see the problem.

Yes in this case the zoomed timebase is not large enough to show the portion from which it is taken although the H Pos trigger pointer and the zoom time marker (73.6us) indicate the main zoom window reference to the 0s position in the capture.
Is that not clearly enough marked ?

Oh and have a look at the video I linked in this post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1312-siglent-oscilloscopes-crippling-history-mode!/msg3097466/#msg3097466

[jemangedeslolos]

Ok, me either I can't seem to make myself understood.
I'm going to take Gandalf_Sr's advice and take a break 

[Sighound36]

jemangedeslolos

I feel you English is rather good, far better in fact than a lot of my compatriots 

Managed the same result on the Rigol MSO8000 only the capture time was far longer due to the 500Mpts of memory.

However still had to manually set the acquire <> Memory depth to max and single shot capture.

This I am absolutely  convinced is due to the way manufactures prioritise the feature with the memory, capture rates and implementation of how its done. In the marketing blurb.  This *may* then cause conflicts within the certain aspects of the way the scope works with other  functions. However Siglent should give you a working option to adjust and turn off this memory feature just my observation

[rf-loop]

show that the automatic management on the Siglent doesn't allows (for example) to look at a high bitrate packet in both the top zoomed window and the bottom window AND then look at another position WITHOUT having to recapture.

Yet they do that without fault !
All the primary timebase record can be panned through from within the zoomed window.
And Navigate to any time position in the capture too.

An example of the required setup posted in another thread:

This is clear and ok.

But IF we need long capture where is zoomed in main window and then zoomed in zoom window or not more zoomed in zoom window but different position in whole capture.

Oscilloscope what works full window zoom mode and have normal window split zoom can do it.
main window is zoomed in window to whole capture length. Zoom window is same time scale than main window or zoomed in more.  So there is three things. 1. Whole capture length, over display width. 2. Main window what show more or less "zoomed in" part of this depending time scale and memory length. 3. Then  there is what we normally call zoom window, what can normally be same time scale what main window or more short part of it aka zoomed in".
With this kind of working principle it is possible to look two separate zoomed in part from whole memory length. But usually in runtime can not see (in this case) whole memory at once on screen without hidden parts.

Of course also this fixed memory length principle where main window is some time slice from whole memory (full window zoom mode principle) can do better but display size is real bottle neck for make dual independent zoom window both with own independent  timebase (time scale) and both with fully independent time position related to reference point what can be trigger position and also trigger position fully free to set what ever position in whole memory length or out from capture memory  and so on.

[2N3055]

Or let's pull in a quote from Albert Einstein. He wasn't so subtle:
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. 

Oh I get it now.. Your'e Albert Einstein and I'm mediocre mind... Sorry it took me so long to get it... But that explains it...

But I gotta give you , you do have great sense of humour.. 

[2N3055]

So, I was thinking long and hard ( and me being not very smart it is kinda slow process ).

If you set manual sample memory to 100 Mpoints.
You set timebase to 1 ms/div.
At 1GS/sec you will have 100 ms worth of data in memory, 10 ms on the screen.
And then you zoom in separate window to 20 ns/div.

That will give you effect of TRIPLE timebase. Full length sampled at one length (not visible on screen but in memory),  a intermediate length in main window (that you freely move around inside sampled data with normal timebase controls) and a third time length in second window (zoom window, that you move around with zoom controls).

To accomplish that effect on scope without manual memory, you would need TWO independent zoom windows:



I can see how that might be useful sometimes, on a scope without multiple zoom windows..

[rf-loop]

So, I was thinking long and hard ( and me being not very smart it is kinda slow process ).

If you set manual sample memory to 100 Mpoints.
You set timebase to 1 ms/div.
At 1GS/sec you will have 100 ms worth of data in memory, 10 ms on the screen.
And then you zoom in separate window to 20 ns/div.

That will give you effect of TRIPLE timebase. Full length sampled at one length (not visible on screen but in memory),  a intermediate length in main window (that you freely move around inside sampled data with normal timebase controls) and a third time length in second window (zoom window, that you move around with zoom controls).

To accomplish that effect on scope without manual memory, you would need TWO independent zoom windows:

(Attachment Link)

I can see how that might be useful sometimes, on a scope without multiple zoom windows..

Exactly what I tried explain in my last post (answering to Tautech).

Many scopes can do this partially. In runtime they can show, without zoom function open, just full window "zoomed in" part from whole length and with selected time scale.
When zoom window function open they can show same part of signal using more fast time scale or some other part from whole memory length with same or more fast time scale than main window. Just like I previously told.
1. Whole length with its time scale as main window time scale so there is not 3 time scales, only two (but many scopes in normal mode do not show this whole signal length in display except small bar graph top part of scree.)
2. Zoomed in main window with user selected time scale (main t/div setting) what is just this normal screen. Only that we do not normally say it is "zoomed in" display. Many scopes work normally in this full window zoomed mode with more or less part of capture is outside of screen what can not see in runtime, just visually blind.
3. Zoom function in use, screen vertically splitted. Same or more zoomed in part of signal  in "zoom window"

If all are born in digital scopes era without anything about analog scopes, do we still talk about timebase when we talk oscilloscopes UI settings. Perhaps not. We perhaps talk about time scale as vertical, example voltage or current etc scale.

In this kind of "normal" scope there can be two visible window what shoe part of whole capture length (if scope is in this working mode) 1st is based to memory length in use and samples interval but I think it is wrong to say it have different third time base aka horizontal time scale. It have this time scale what we set when we are looking it. Even if length is 10ms and our main window have 10 divisions and our setup is 1ns/div and our window to 10ms long captured signal is only 10 ns slice and 9999990 not visible in runtime. Oh well, runtime can zoom out, and set 1ms/div and see whole length (if scope do not force overlap)


Cheap solution is add fixed memory length function as usually is in many many scopes - and is still also in some Siglent more old oscilloscopes so it can not say Siglent do not know what it is. Even more, some older Siglent scopes have Dual Independent time scale horizontal alternate mode with  independent dual trigger system what is very rare.  And fixed memory length with normal main window zoom and  split window zoom.

How to keep whole user selected memory length visible, if user want, on screen and least two separate different time scale and position sub windows on screen... this is challenge. If there need be full freedom for set time scales in both sub window and fully free time position for both, this need different hardware.

Why do like others, walk your own road, Siglent!  Plese let us see dual independent time scale aand position "zoom" windows with full length diaplay with user selectable fixed length or autoselected memory length where user can set limits and or force sample interval.

Also please add true dual independent time scale axis mode (noy alternate) with independent triggers for both (principle like in Siglent old SDS1000CML what have dual timescale independent trigger alternate mode), so that it can work least with two channels simultaneously and what can imitate (poorly but somehow) real dual independent beam scope. It was not mistake when in history Tektronix made 7844 dual beam model.
Scopes what have dual fully separate ADC and dual memory like 4 channel Siglents have good change to do it.

[Elasia]

I have to wonder how much of this would infringe on lecroy and is actually no compete locked away

[Martin72]

Just asked them now via email.

And got an answer.
After asking them twice or triple without reaction if I could do that, I let the bomb drop:
They´re working about, it´s on their to do list.
Will surely not come with the next update because of the complexity of the thing.
And I hope they won´t do a fast shot, but at last:
This is siglent, they take user/customers reactions seriously, one step more to become an A brand.

[rf-loop]

This is siglent, they take user/customers reactions seriously,...

Of course seriously. All money, what Siglent may get is in customers pocket.
Btw, continuous around 15% investment to research and product developing from sales is not very bad.

[gaurav.anand]

Hi. Does anybody know if this is going to be fixed and changed to like the majority of scopes work.
I know we can work around but even if its just a design choice, its not practical. Changing time base and capturing just to be able to see longer capture is counter intuitive when one has the memory setting. Also what if someone wants to stop after seeing something on the screen.

This serious limitation or bad design choice can be deal breaker for me.

So any chance this is going to change in any FW update

[tautech]

It's been a long standing implementation of capture strategy by LeCroy, Pico scope and Siglent all of which are respected brands in their respective fields.
It allows more power to the user other than in corner use cases.

AFAIK it's still on a low priority list for Siglent to modify to suit those that can't/won't adapt to a different way of reaching the same result.

[gaurav.anand]

It's been a long standing implementation of capture strategy by LeCroy, Pico scope and Siglent all of which are respected brands in their respective fields.
It allows more power to the user other than in corner use cases.

AFAIK it's still on a low priority list for Siglent to modify to suit those that can't/won't adapt to a different way of reaching the same result.

Thanks for the reply
BTW what is the more power this choice brings. Do you mean history?

[tautech]

It's been a long standing implementation of capture strategy by LeCroy, Pico scope and Siglent all of which are respected brands in their respective fields.
It allows more power to the user other than in corner use cases.

AFAIK it's still on a low priority list for Siglent to modify to suit those that can't/won't adapt to a different way of reaching the same result.

Thanks for the reply
BTW what is the more power this choice brings. Do you mean history?

Not only History as a larger total memory depth that some DSO's offer allows for longer/greater detail captures than those DSO's with small memory depth common in DSO's that are optimized for zoom out and allow inspection of what is not already on the display.
You may have seen Dave zoom out the timebase and find the limits to what is possible however with a capture 'long' and zoom in this handicap is then avoided.

Scopes that have a sensible Zoom window ratio like the SDS2104X Plus screenshot earlier on this page allow for the full memory to be used for the primary window without impacting largely on the zoomed 'working' window size and with a touch display like X Plus has we can pan across the full primary display record from within the zoomed display with a finger.
DSO's that display their full acquisition information on the display allow us, the user and boss of the instrument to make informed decisions of how best to operate it.

[gaurav.anand]

I assume all the siglent scopes are designed this way e.g. 1104x-e. Right?

[gaurav.anand]

I assume all the siglent scopes are designed this way e.g. 1104x-e. Right?

I mean to ask with respect to the zoom out/history functionality that I asked about in my previous questions?
So all the current siglents behave the same way?

[tautech]

I assume all the siglent scopes are designed this way e.g. 1104x-e. Right?

I mean to ask with respect to the zoom out/history functionality that I asked about in my previous questions?
So all the current siglents behave the same way?

Yes, it's Siglent's, LeCroy's and Picoscope's design philosophy as zooming in is a more powerful use of a deep memory architecture than zooming out.
There is a bigger picture to consider why some DSO's are this way as sampling rate, memory depth and WFPS rate are all somewhat dependant on one another and careful study of datasheets can reveal how all brands make tradeoffs in their designs to maximise performance.
None are 100% right or wrong only different to operate and get the best from.

However a deep memory DSO is highly desirable in order to have the greatest versatility.

[rf-loop]

Yes you can stop and after then zoom out and look if there is...






But I want more...     So I turn to this road...






Just because I want more.      And -- because I know where is more.







It is difficult to understand how some believe they get more if this upper part of image is hidden and exchanged with some nearly nonsense horizontal bargraph. Or I just have to learn to see the emperor’s new clothes and know how to praise them.

[nctnico]

I assume all the siglent scopes are designed this way e.g. 1104x-e. Right?

I mean to ask with respect to the zoom out/history functionality that I asked about in my previous questions?
So all the current siglents behave the same way?

Yes, it's Siglent's, LeCroy's and Picoscope's design philosophy as zooming in is a more powerful use of a deep memory architecture than zooming out.
There is a bigger picture to consider why some DSO's are this way as sampling rate, memory depth and WFPS rate are all somewhat dependant on one another and careful study of datasheets can reveal how all brands make tradeoffs in their designs to maximise performance.
None are 100% right or wrong only different to operate and get the best from.

However a deep memory DSO is highly desirable in order to have the greatest versatility.

Now you are contradicting yourself. Not being able to zoom out lessens the versatility and seriously slows down some type of measurements. And I repeat: there is no trade-off to be made to support zooming out. R&S shows that by supporting all acquisition modes.

It is similar to driving a car with a very wide turning circle. Such a car is difficult to drive in places with narrow streets (narrow corners, turning around, parking, etc). Some people never run into situations where it is a problem, some people don't know/care and will move forward/backward many times and others will see the limitation for what it is and buy a different car to drive around more easely.

@rf-loop: you don't need zoom mode to know there is more. For many types of measurements you know there is more and what the signal should look like. It is just that you are not making such measurements and thus don't understand why zooming out is such an important feature for other people. IOW: Zooming out is an important feature but you just don't understand why. On top of that you make a fool out of yourself by ridiculing other people's workflow.

[rf-loop]

I assume all the siglent scopes are designed this way e.g. 1104x-e. Right?

I mean to ask with respect to the zoom out/history functionality that I asked about in my previous questions?
So all the current siglents behave the same way?

Yes, it's Siglent's, LeCroy's and Picoscope's design philosophy as zooming in is a more powerful use of a deep memory architecture than zooming out.
There is a bigger picture to consider why some DSO's are this way as sampling rate, memory depth and WFPS rate are all somewhat dependant on one another and careful study of datasheets can reveal how all brands make tradeoffs in their designs to maximise performance.
None are 100% right or wrong only different to operate and get the best from.

However a deep memory DSO is highly desirable in order to have the greatest versatility.

Now you are contradicting yourself. Not being able to zoom out lessens the versatility and seriously slows down some type of measurements. And I repeat: there is no trade-off to be made to support zooming out. R&S shows that by supporting all acquisition modes.

It is similar to driving a car with a very wide turning circle. Such a car is difficult to drive in places with narrow streets (narrow corners, turning around, parking, etc). Some people never run into situations where it is a problem, some people don't know/care and will move forward/backward many times and others will see the limitation for what it is and buy a different car to drive around more easely.

@rf-loop: you don't need zoom mode to know there is more. For many types of measurements you know there is more and what the signal should look like. It is just that you are not making such measurements and thus don't understand why zooming out is such an important feature for other people.

I think you know it is actually full window zoom and nothing else what you admire so much. Is it better to also show this whole together this zoomed part. What you loose when it is displayed. Nothing. Except if you are after this KS wfm speed hype. In other side there is zero loose and other side there is you can get more.
But this discuss will never stop, you can keep your way to use oscilloscopes and be happy with it. Every user is right if he is perfectly satisfied scope meet his needs and deep-rooted ways of using it. //

[nctnico]

You forgot to quote: On top of that you make a fool out of yourself by ridiculing other people's workflow.

[rf-loop]

You forgot to quote: On top of that you make a fool out of yourself by ridiculing other people's workflow.

I appreciate your opinion very much.

[tautech]

I assume all the siglent scopes are designed this way e.g. 1104x-e. Right?

I mean to ask with respect to the zoom out/history functionality that I asked about in my previous questions?
So all the current siglents behave the same way?

Yes, it's Siglent's, LeCroy's and Picoscope's design philosophy as zooming in is a more powerful use of a deep memory architecture than zooming out.
There is a bigger picture to consider why some DSO's are this way as sampling rate, memory depth and WFPS rate are all somewhat dependant on one another and careful study of datasheets can reveal how all brands make tradeoffs in their designs to maximise performance.
None are 100% right or wrong only different to operate and get the best from.

However a deep memory DSO is highly desirable in order to have the greatest versatility.

Now you are contradicting yourself. Not being able to zoom out lessens the versatility and seriously slows down some type of measurements. And I repeat: there is no trade-off to be made to support zooming out. R&S shows that by supporting all acquisition modes.

It is clear you do not understand the tradeoffs when they are quite clear in a R&S datasheet.
Study enough datasheets with the knowledge of how different brands do capture management strategy when using ADC/FPGA's and the tradeoffs stick out like a sore thumb but they are best left for the observant reader to discover for themselves.

This is not about brands but design architecture and implementation.
Maybe take a deep breath and read and fully comprehend my post above.

[nctnico]

I assume all the siglent scopes are designed this way e.g. 1104x-e. Right?

I mean to ask with respect to the zoom out/history functionality that I asked about in my previous questions?
So all the current siglents behave the same way?

Yes, it's Siglent's, LeCroy's and Picoscope's design philosophy as zooming in is a more powerful use of a deep memory architecture than zooming out.
There is a bigger picture to consider why some DSO's are this way as sampling rate, memory depth and WFPS rate are all somewhat dependant on one another and careful study of datasheets can reveal how all brands make tradeoffs in their designs to maximise performance.
None are 100% right or wrong only different to operate and get the best from.

However a deep memory DSO is highly desirable in order to have the greatest versatility.

Now you are contradicting yourself. Not being able to zoom out lessens the versatility and seriously slows down some type of measurements. And I repeat: there is no trade-off to be made to support zooming out. R&S shows that by supporting all acquisition modes.

It is clear you do not understand the tradeoffs when they are quite clear in a R&S datasheet.

Please point them out and I can tell you exactly where your error is. There is absolutely nothing Siglent's memory management can do which the R&S scopes  (RTB2k, RTM3k and RTA4k) can't.

Edit: two days later and still no explaination from tautech on how Siglent's memory management is better compared to that found in R&S scopes (which caters all modes). 

[Fungus]

Ok, me either I can't seem to make myself understood.

Some people simply don't want to listen.

They put their hands on their ears and go "nananananananananana" when sombody says that Siglents aren't gifts from the gods.

Me? I say there's no excuse for not filling the entire memory when the 'scope is stopped.