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| Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk |
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| 2N3055:
--- Quote from: Fungus on March 06, 2021, 07:43:32 am --- --- Quote from: Martin72 on March 05, 2021, 10:37:01 pm ---When it´s so simple to change, when it seems it got only advantages when always using the full memory amount- Why do a major brand like teledyne lecroy not use it? --- End quote --- Who knows? But that's "argument from authority". It's not a reason for Siglent to follow them or an argument that Siglent is "doing the right thing". All it means is that TDL is doing it wrong, too. --- End quote --- What is an "argument from authority" ? Fact that Nico and you say it's easy so that's it? It is not "who knows why". LeCroy has dozens of whitepapers that explains why, but that requires reading and accepting the fact that one might not be smartest guy in the room and may be wrong. So we have two punters who claim they know better than engineers that make 100 GHz scopes.... There is no argument here. We have Nico who have digital view of the world : his way and wrong way, and you who join any controversial discussion with no intention of contributing anything useful, just riling up emotions and provoking people.....Like Bugs Bunny, but without charm.... LeCroy, Siglent, Picoscope, Rigol (by default AUTO strategy), R&S (by default AUTO strategy), Keysight Infiniivision (Run mode), Micsig (by default AUTO strategy) and all others that have AUTO memory mode use that same method of only grabbing only amount of data that is equivalent to length of screen in current timebase. They all do it to minimize amount of data taken in every trigger to get faster reacting scope and keep sampling rate high to avoid aliasing. It is like analog scope, you see what you see. There is NO data before or after screen, and there is no need to. If you want to see more, you put more time ON the screen. Benefit of digital scope is that you can stop it and then zoom in and still see details. There is no simpler or more logical way of doing it, and as I said before, most of the scopes come by default set for that use pattern. Tektronix added AUTO mode on latest models, because people were asking for this "LeCroy" mode, because twiddling memory length manually all the time is pain in the ass. Why would stupid scope always collect 0,1 second of data, update 10 times a second (like a multimeter), and then throwaway everything except 1 usec of data ( throwing away 99,999% of data) and then show that on the screen. How is that efficient, good engineering. What Nico does is similar to Rube Goldberg machine, where he achieves same result by setting several setting, doing mental math and paying attention that they all sit together in the end by side effect to give him his data. Instead of using the doorknob to open the door, he devised a system of levers and pulleys that opens the door from the lever on the wall next to the door , because he doesn't like how doorknob makes the door look. And then one day, he realized, if he moves that lever low enough, he can open the door with a foot. Which is kind of neat when your hands are full. And then he saw the light and now it is the only righteous way.. Rest of use just use doorknobs, and open the door with an elbow if our hands are busy. He likes his handles and pulleys, his complicated ways of doing simple things ? Great, glad for him. Me, I'll keep using doorknobs, like millions of others. |
| Fungus:
--- Quote from: 2N3055 on March 06, 2021, 09:05:58 am ---What is an "argument from authority" ? --- End quote --- I did link to the Wikipedia page, but the short version is "not an argument based on logic or evidence". --- Quote from: 2N3055 on March 06, 2021, 09:05:58 am ---LeCroy, Siglent, Picoscope, Rigol (by default AUTO strategy), R&S (by default AUTO strategy), Keysight Infiniivision (Run mode), Micsig (by default AUTO strategy) and all others that have AUTO memory mode use that same method of only grabbing only amount of data that is equivalent to length of screen in current timebase. --- End quote --- Nope. All of them grab the amount of data which is the current memory depth. That can easily be more data than fits on screen. --- Quote from: 2N3055 on March 06, 2021, 09:05:58 am ---They all do it to minimize amount of data taken in every trigger to get faster reacting scope and keep sampling rate high to avoid aliasing. --- End quote --- Are you saying Keysights are slowed down and/or suffer aliasing because of this? My Rigol certainly wasn't. --- Quote from: 2N3055 on March 06, 2021, 09:05:58 am ---It is like analog scope, you see what you see. There is NO data before or after screen, and there is no need to. --- End quote --- :palm: --- Quote from: 2N3055 on March 06, 2021, 09:05:58 am --- If you want to see more, you put more time ON the screen. Benefit of digital scope is that you can stop it and then zoom in and still see details. --- End quote --- What if the event is a rare one and you can't simply "put more time on screen" then re-record it? --- Quote from: 2N3055 on March 06, 2021, 09:05:58 am ---There is no simpler or more logical way of doing it --- End quote --- Um, yes there is. It's a much more natural workflow to simply zoom out from what you're looking at. |
| 2N3055:
--- Quote from: Fungus on March 06, 2021, 09:22:22 am --- --- Quote from: 2N3055 on March 06, 2021, 09:05:58 am ---What is an "argument from authority" ? --- End quote --- I did link to the Wikipedia page, but the short version is "not an argument based on logic or evidence". --- Quote from: 2N3055 on March 06, 2021, 09:05:58 am ---LeCroy, Siglent, Picoscope, Rigol (by default AUTO strategy), R&S (by default AUTO strategy), Keysight Infiniivision (Run mode), Micsig (by default AUTO strategy) and all others that have AUTO memory mode use that same method of only grabbing only amount of data that is equivalent to length of screen in current timebase. --- End quote --- Nope. All of them grab the amount of data which is the current memory depth. That can easily be more data than fits on screen. --- Quote from: 2N3055 on March 06, 2021, 09:05:58 am ---They all do it to minimize amount of data taken in every trigger to get faster reacting scope and keep sampling rate high to avoid aliasing. --- End quote --- Are you saying Keysights are slowed down and/or suffer aliasing because of this? My Rigol certainly wasn't. --- Quote from: 2N3055 on March 06, 2021, 09:05:58 am ---It is like analog scope, you see what you see. There is NO data before or after screen, and there is no need to. --- End quote --- :palm: --- Quote from: 2N3055 on March 06, 2021, 09:05:58 am --- If you want to see more, you put more time ON the screen. Benefit of digital scope is that you can stop it and then zoom in and still see details. --- End quote --- What if the event is a rare one and you can't simply "put more time on screen" then re-record it? --- Quote from: 2N3055 on March 06, 2021, 09:05:58 am ---There is no simpler or more logical way of doing it --- End quote --- Um, yes there is. It's a much more natural workflow to simply zoom out from what you're looking at. --- End quote --- It's yellow. |
| nctnico:
--- Quote from: 2N3055 on March 06, 2021, 09:05:58 am ---What Nico does is similar to Rube Goldberg machine, where he achieves same result by setting several setting, doing mental math and paying attention that they all sit together in the end by side effect to give him his data. Instead of using the doorknob to open the door, he devised a system of levers and pulleys that opens the door from the lever on the wall next to the door , because he doesn't like how doorknob makes the door look. And then one day, he realized, if he moves that lever low enough, he can open the door with a foot. Which is kind of neat when your hands are full. And then he saw the light and now it is the only righteous way.. --- End quote --- And now back to ridiculing other people's workflow :palm: I was hoping my previous message would appeal to your maturity but appearantly it hasn't. How are we supposed to take you serious when you keep pulling nonsense out of your ass? Just accept the fact that you don't understand everything. Understanding why 'zoom out' is more efficient is one of them. A simple example: looking at the data in the middle of an I2C message (only part of the message on screen). A scope with deep memory length will capture the start (and thus is able to decode the message) without explicitely needing to setup a zoom window and think what kind of time/div that zoom window needs to have. I2C usually runs at tens of kHz at least. Even a relative short span like 10Mpts of memory @1Gs/s gives you a total time of 10ms. That is enough to capture an I2C message a few bytes long (clocked at 10kHz) several times over. Why make setting up an oscilloscope more troublesome than it has to? |
| rsjsouza:
--- Quote from: tautech on March 06, 2021, 08:34:07 am ---No SDS2104X Plus left ...customers have them all so out comes zoom on a SDS5104X....... What's not to like......still an 8" display of which half is still usable. Cluttered display ? :-// --- End quote --- In my opinion, yes. I have less screen area to what I really want to see from the waveform itself, not the entire capture. Sure, a Pico will never have this issue, but an 8'' screen (just like my DS4014) this is not good. --- Quote from: 2N3055 on March 06, 2021, 09:05:58 am ---LeCroy, Siglent, Picoscope, Rigol (by default AUTO strategy), R&S (by default AUTO strategy), Keysight Infiniivision (Run mode), Micsig (by default AUTO strategy) and all others that have AUTO memory mode use that same method of only grabbing only amount of data that is equivalent to length of screen in current timebase. --- End quote --- Sinisa, that is where you lose me. No question about the benefits or characteristics of the Auto setting, but another is the fact that in a Rigol I can set a memory depth and the oscilloscope will obey my command. That is not what is seen in Dave's video: Siglent will size it according to what it thinks it is better. And no, I don't need to do "mental math and paying attention that they all sit together" either. Otherwise, I have been in lenghty interface and ease-of-use discussions to know these things are hard to convince if there is not a very clear benefit one way or another. |
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