Author Topic: Other Than FFT Feature Useful for an Oscilloscope (Read 44155 times)

PeterG · « **Reply #25 on:** October 22, 2010, 02:50:00 pm »

OK, so its 1:30am and i am a bit silly. I ran through the firmware file for this scope, with Ultraedit, and put together a txt file containing the text strings i found within it. This should give us an idea of all the commands available. However i would advise caution as some of these commands may break the scope if not used correctly. So use this file as a reference only.

Regards

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #26 on:** October 22, 2010, 06:04:45 pm »

thanx darkman and sigs for the info.

i have problem though during dev of my toy app, is to change trigger level from pc. i've done it but not so smoothly with :KEY:TRIG_LVL_INC or :KEY:TRIG_LVL_DEC. The UI is click and drag down or up to change the level using the command mentioned, but it turned out my pc got stucked and not smooth, i'm looking for better way to do this.

DJPhil · « **Reply #27 on:** October 22, 2010, 08:37:01 pm »

Quote from: Darkman1969 on October 22, 2010, 02:50:00 pm

OK, so its 1:30am and i am a bit silly. I ran through the firmware file for this scope, with Ultraedit, and put together a txt file containing the text strings i found within it. This should give us an idea of all the commands available. However i would advise caution as some of these commands may break the scope if not used correctly. So use this file as a reference only.

I messed with this text file a bit in an attempt to organize it, but I'm not sure if I succeeded. Attached is a .csv file that can be viewed as text or imported to a spreadsheet. Maybe it'll help, but I don't hold out much hope.

Quote from: shafri on October 22, 2010, 06:04:45 pm

i have problem though during dev of my toy app, is to change trigger level from pc. i've done it but not so smoothly with :KEY:TRIG_LVL_INC or :KEY:TRIG_LVL_DEC. The UI is click and drag down or up to change the level using the command mentioned, but it turned out my pc got stucked and not smooth, i'm looking for better way to do this.

The best gui 'rotary knob' I've worked with was on an old VST plugin for an audio program. If you click and drag on the knob moving up and down was like a max coarse adjustment and moving right to left did nothing, but any angle in between could be used to fine adjust. For example, you'd click and drag mostly straight up to raise the trigger fast, then add right movement to the pointer as you get close, finally you're moving mostly right for the finest adjustment. I know I'm probably not explaining it very well, but it was a very elegant system for precisely selecting among a huge range of values. For all I know this is commonplace, I'd just only seen it explained on that single VST plugin. You might be able to set it up so that the change doesn't commit until left-mousebutton-up, if that makes sense (forgive me, I haven't programmed in a gui since VB3, and then only kid stuff).

Hope that helps.

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #28 on:** October 22, 2010, 09:16:20 pm »

Quote from: DJPhil on October 22, 2010, 08:37:01 pm

I messed with this text file a bit in an attempt to organize it, but I'm not sure if I succeeded. Attached is a .csv file that can be viewed as text or imported to a spreadsheet. Maybe it'll help, The best gui 'rotary knob' I've worked with was on an old VST plugin for an audio program.... You might be able to set it up so that the change doesn't commit until left-mousebutton-up, if that makes sense (forgive me, I haven't programmed in a gui since VB3, and then only kid stuff).

thanx for the effort and advice. some effort and thinking will be needed on the GUI, thanx.

PeterG · « **Reply #29 on:** October 23, 2010, 12:07:13 am »

Nice work DJPhil, now the fun will really start.

We should now be able to get most of the things we want out of this scope.

Shafri, i will be using a simple up/down button for the Trig/Lvl setting. There are several examples floating around the net for rotary controls in VB6 and VB.net. Last time i used VB6 was several years ago, stopped using it when it refused to install on my 64bit Vista machine and I don't like my chances now i am using Win7 64bit.

Has anyone played with the "*TEK" command yet?

Regards

PeterG · « **Reply #30 on:** October 23, 2010, 12:54:59 am »

No reason to use the TEK command, but it does stand out of the crowd. Its a bit of a "What does this do?" thing..

If i had a choice i would be using VB6, not at all happy with the way .net works. Give me vb6 and native code any day. But i have to make thing all shinny and frilly to keep clients happy. I also need to make things work on newer OS/computers. I do run XP with vb6 in VM if i really need it but i am more comfortable with .net these days.

sonicj · « **Reply #31 on:** November 10, 2010, 02:51:13 am »

ableton live is a good model to study for a simple, clean, functional UI.

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #32 on:** November 30, 2010, 03:56:05 pm »

i'm working on logic probing. from what i found out, during dso running mode, it will return 600B's 8b values, as mentioned earlier. however during stop mode (triggered after single capture), dso will return 16384B's of the same format 8b values (just as sigxcpu mentioned) but with 5X more horizontal resolution (sampling) compared to running mode data, so meaning we will get 5X++ more captured data than what is shown on the rigol display (my math says (16384/(5*600)). still struggling to output any usefull data out of it. i'm working on it, i'm working on it. its been several days now. sigh!

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #33 on:** December 07, 2010, 09:42:46 pm »

i'm done with logic probing, but only generic one, not specific spi, uart etc comm (no DUT ready for testing yet), just direct translation 010101. to perfect it will take forever, so alpha/beta testers are highly welcomed... and see how much help this program could do. link on the 1st post updated to version 1.0.2

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #34 on:** December 08, 2010, 05:42:03 am »

i forgot to mention... if you are lost in the program, go and click the "H" button (help) on the main panel (bottom right). looking forward to any bug report for improvement.
you may as well link to the other usefull App for this Rigol DSO whether created by you or somebody else. Cheers.

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #35 on:** December 10, 2010, 01:52:57 am »

i'll be uploading ver1.1.1 soon (with VB programming guide on how to program a "companion program"). if you are good enough, you should be able to port it to Windows C Programming. i'll be providing "non optimized code" so if any bugs happening, it will not just terminate disgracefully, at least there is a message box telling whats happening.

if it cannot be run indicating there is dll or files is missing, pls inform me, i'll make an installation file for mostly used VB dll, ocx. thats the bad thing about vb, much dependent on other files

. but i try it as KISS as possible, even the save dialog form is just a simple stupid InputBox, not a true File Dialog Box (comdlg.ocx).

ElektroQuark · « **Reply #36 on:** December 10, 2010, 09:03:22 am »

I'm looking for a time break to look at your software.
Thank you shafri.

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #37 on:** March 19, 2011, 09:56:04 pm »

Took me 3 days to think:
1) Why Rigol didnt provide finite presistent display mode? (only infinite and off) must tried to cut the cost the development time. wouldnt it be nice if say we have finite persistence, eg 0.1, 0.2, 0.5, 1, 2, 5, 10, 30 second? like they did to their Menu Display duration

2) XY Mode of Rigol only capable of 200us - 20ms capture (1MSa/s - 10KSa/s), why cant they draw XY down to 2ns? or up to 50secs? i still cannot figure out why?
3) I saw other high end DSO can do dV/dt, i wonder how usefull it is. How about d2V/dt2?
O well, maybe i just have wasted those 3 days imagining things

Franki · « **Reply #38 on:** March 19, 2011, 11:14:36 pm »

1) ability to reinject a previously captured waveform (like a general waveform generator)
2) ability to display the Z-transformtion of a signal
special 3) operations on FFTs and Z-transformtions and inject waveforms resynthesized out of FFTs and Z-transforms into the circuit

PeterG · « **Reply #39 on:** March 19, 2011, 11:30:24 pm »

The DS1052x scopes dont have the ability to reproduce there captured signal as an output. However it is be possible to save the captured data and send it to a Rigol FG. I have looked at this and i believe the DSO data can be converted to a format for the FG to read as a Arb signal.

Ideally i would be using a pic based device to receive the data from the DSOs serial port and forward it to the FG with a push-button.
This would make it a smoother method without the need of a PC.

Regards

alm · « **Reply #40 on:** March 19, 2011, 11:51:13 pm »

Quote from: Darkman1969 on March 19, 2011, 11:30:24 pm

The DS1052x scopes dont have the ability to reproduce there captured signal as an output. However it is be possible to save the captured data and send it to a Rigol FG. I have looked at this and i believe the DSO data can be converted to a format for the FG to read as a Arb signal.

I'm surprised this isn't a standard feature in their software, Agilent and Tek have supported that for their AWGs/scopes forever.

Quote from: Darkman1969 on March 19, 2011, 11:30:24 pm

Ideally i would be using a pic based device to receive the data from the DSOs serial port and forward it to the FG with a push-button.
This would make it a smoother method without the need of a PC.

You would need a PIC with USB host support, and depending on how they implemented USB, support for USBTMC (the Rigol USBTMC implementation is quite... creative I believe).

PeterG · « **Reply #41 on:** March 20, 2011, 12:03:56 am »

Rigol DSOs and FGs have serial ports on them so i should be able to get away without having to use USB. Given that the serial leads would be short, there should be no problem using high speeds(128kbs).

Regards

alm · « **Reply #42 on:** March 20, 2011, 12:47:48 am »

Quote from: Darkman1969 on March 20, 2011, 12:03:56 am

Rigol DSOs and FGs have serial ports on them so i should be able to get away without having to use USB.

You sure about that? As far as I can find, the DG1022 (their current budget AFG offering) only has USB according to the datasheet and this picture of the rear side. Some (older/more expensive) Rigol FGs may have RS-232 ports, but not all of them, unless they hid it somewhere.

PeterG · « **Reply #43 on:** March 20, 2011, 01:56:38 am »

Yes, you are correct, the DG1022 does not have a serial port. But the DSO does, my mistake. I should be able to obtain the wave from the DSO via serial and send it to the DG1022 via usb. The usb side will be a nightmare. Anyone here worked with USB on pics?

Regards

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #44 on:** March 20, 2011, 07:04:45 pm »

Quote from: Franki on March 19, 2011, 11:14:36 pm

1) ability to reinject a previously captured waveform (like a general waveform generator)

inject to where? i got a Hantek 3x25

me thinking of injecting there... later.

Quote from: Franki on March 19, 2011, 11:14:36 pm

2) ability to display the Z-transformtion of a signal

ok, i need to study basic first! Fourier Trasform... have been reading for hours (in wiki, book) it seems everytime i dig more into the detail, there is a new hole (aspect) to dig. esp this discrete stuffs, windowing (blackman hann etc). this highly mathematical stuff drives me crazy! i thought i can finish it at 12pm, but now its 3am already, and i havent got anything!... arghh! tomorrows working!

Quote from: Franki on March 19, 2011, 11:14:36 pm

special 3) operations on FFTs and Z-transformtions and inject waveforms resynthesized out of FFTs and Z-transforms into the circuit

WHAT?! is there any easy way?!

scrat · « **Reply #45 on:** March 20, 2011, 08:07:48 pm »

Quote from: Franki on March 19, 2011, 11:14:36 pm

1) ability to reinject a previously captured waveform (like a general waveform generator)
2) ability to display the Z-transformtion of a signal
special 3) operations on FFTs and Z-transformtions and inject waveforms resynthesized out of FFTs and Z-transforms into the circuit

1) Unfortunately, the scope is only a scope, not a signal generator.
2) The Z-tranform of a signal is nothing more than the sum of the 1st sample multiplied by 1, the 2nd by z^-1, the 3rd by z^-2,..., so I wonder how you could display such a thing
3) Applying a user defined filtering to the captured waveform would be a good feature

I hope Shafri tool for the Rigol gives the possibility to export captured waveforms into an easy readable format (e.g. csv), which could then be imported into Matlab, Excel or other tools. I don't see this option into Ultrascope.
If this feature is supported, algorithms would become easily to develop and test outside, and then put into the application, not leaving Shafri alone in this work

Quote from: Mechatrommer on March 20, 2011, 07:04:45 pm

ok, i need to study basic first! Fourier Trasform... have been reading for hours (in wiki, book) it seems everytime i dig more into the detail, there is a new hole (aspect) to dig. esp this discrete stuffs, windowing (blackman hann etc). this highly mathematical stuff drives me crazy! i thought i can finish it at 12pm, but now its 3am already, and i havent got anything!... arghh! tomorrows working!

I think they usually explain these things in a bad way for an engineer (using math only, rather than math and examples), while the core of the thing is quite simple (for example like I told above for the Z-transform). Don't give up, and if you need it, just ask, someone will find the right way to explain.

Bored@Work · « **Reply #46 on:** March 20, 2011, 10:40:43 pm »

Rigol uses USBTMC, not the more common serial emulation USB CDC-ACM. And Rigol has a broken USBTMC implementation. At some time they used that broken implementation both in oscilloscopes and their waveform generators. It was easy to crash the instrument interface after a while if one tried to do normal USBTMC with the instrument. I have no idea if they still do, or if they finally got their ass up and fixed it.

If they haven't fixed it, it is not a pretty thing. I would use a real PC, not a PIC to get things running and ironing out the protocol quirks first.

PeterG · « **Reply #47 on:** March 20, 2011, 11:50:57 pm »

Thank you for the advice, i will be definitely using a pc before using a pic.
The final project ill have a few 'Macro Buttons' mounted on a project box with an LCD that will control the DSO via its serial port. This will allow me to enhance the DSO by me being able to press a button on the box to set up the scope for common tasks without the need of a pc.

Sending the data to the FG was an after thought.

Regards

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #48 on:** March 21, 2011, 06:00:31 am »

Quote from: scrat on March 20, 2011, 08:07:48 pm

3) Applying a user defined filtering to the captured waveform would be a good feature

what kind of filtering? there are megazillions filters in the "soft"world.

Quote from: scrat on March 20, 2011, 08:07:48 pm

...possibility to export captured waveforms into an easy readable format (e.g. csv), which could then be imported into Matlab, Excel or other tools. I don't see this option into Ultrascope.

just why didnt you tell me 10 years ago?!

the good part... its super easy! but the bad part is, what kind of data are you expecting? i'm assuming it will be volt,time(s) with the raw data (peculiar format) converted into the right volt and second values in decimals right?

Quote from: scrat on March 20, 2011, 08:07:48 pm

Don't give up...

thanx pal! its a bright day with a bright hope, now i can see the light into FFT Implementation without the nastiness of math formulation here http://en.literateprograms.org/Cooley-Tukey_FFT_algorithm_(C) (step by step explanation from pure unoptimized fft to Cooley Tukey FFT in C ) if someone care, but i believe last night reading will pay the price for understanding the algorithm.

ps: last night i traced FFT back to its ancestor Thales of Miletus at Greek when Nebuchadnezzar rules

sometime i can appreciate why others love to be historian. reminds me that one of my friend once wrote on his bag, the meaning is like... how lucky we are that we are granted to use the simple value of Pi without knowing how Archimedes got into the mess.

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #49 on:** March 21, 2011, 10:38:57 am »

about the filter, i'm thinking of rejecting the rigol noise (impurity) only, any idea/fact will be appreciated. i'm thinking data averaging, but not like the rigol did which i'm suspecting is like average(capture-n) ie many captures averaged, but maybe like average(data-n) at each captured data. i dont think filtering the actual data (circuit signal) is a good idea, unless its intentional to modify the original data (rigol output but FG input). something like Franki said about getting the output from inverse calculation of freq-domain data.


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Author Topic: Other Than FFT Feature Useful for an Oscilloscope (Read 44155 times)

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