Peak ESR 70+ vs ISO-TECH LCR 1701

[Deckert]

Hi,

I'm in the market for an ESR meter and the ESR 70 + from Peak looks like a good buy. However, I noticed that RS Components sell the ISO-Tech LCR-1701 meter for just a little bit more:

http://za.rs-online.com/web/p/products/8007406/

The LCR-1701 also has an ESR mode, but offers so much more functionality. It's a re-badged APPA 701 LCD meter:

http://www.amazon.com/APPA-Innovative-Meter-10KHz-Orange/dp/B00VYRIBK4

My question: does anybody have any experience with the ISO-Tech meter? Specifically, what is the in-circuit measurement voltages? (The ESR 70+ is specced at 40mV, so in-circuit is mostly no problem for it).

--deckert

[nanofrog]

Is there any particular reason for skipping the DER EE DE-5000? 

[Deckert]

Is there any particular reason for skipping the DER EE DE-5000? 

Issue is always with shipping to my country - if it's not done via DHL or FedEx, it just never gets to my address, so I have to factor that into the price. The RS Components site has a local (in-country) presence.

But thanks for the pointer, will investigate the DE-5000 - looking at Dave's review, it's a pity that so few options are included, but the rest of the meter looks really great. The LCR-1701 includes everything (tweezers, leads, USB interface, etc) into the price.

--deckert

[Kjelt]

The ESR70 measures ESR at 100kHz, the ISO-TECH only max at 10kHz 

[McBryce]

Hi,
     the Peak has a few advantages. It's a lot smaller, it can discharge the capacitor if needed, and a kjelt says it uses 100khz to do the measurement. I have one and I'm very happy with it so for.

McBryce.

[nanofrog]

Issue is always with shipping to my country - if it's not done via DHL or FedEx, it just never gets to my address, so I have to factor that into the price. The RS Components site has a local (in-country) presence.

But thanks for the pointer, will investigate the DE-5000 - looking at Dave's review, it's a pity that so few options are included, but the rest of the meter looks really great. The LCR-1701 includes everything (tweezers, leads, USB interface, etc) into the price.

FWIW, it's possible to get it with the extras you want (I sourced mine via eBay, but there may be other Japanese markets you can get it from, such as Rakuten).   

As per getting it to you, I've found Japanese sellers to be very friendly and easy to deal with, so if you want it shipped DHL for example, you'll be able to find one that will do so for you.   

Hope this helps. 

[Deckert]

the Peak has a few advantages. It's a lot smaller, it can discharge the capacitor if needed, and a kjelt says it uses 100khz to do the measurement. I have one and I'm very happy with it so for.

Thanks - yeah, the Peak looks really good and the reviews are all favorable, except for one common remark: it needs a standing bale/kick stand!

Out of interest: on the test frequency, even the high-end Agilent LCR meters (U1732A/U1732B) only go up to 10kHz. Is it really that important to test at 100kHz for ESR? (I've read somewhere that Peak claim 100kHz to be the industry standard). All I want to do is establish if a cap has gone bad - preferably in-circuit.

I'm still torn between the ISO-Tech and the Peak though. The DE-5000 looks really great, but with shipping and taxes it comes to almost double the price of the ISO-Tech and has no local warranty.

Thanks for the comments/feedback so far - has produced much additional consideration for me. I'll sleep on it a bit.

--deckert

[BravoV]

Out of interest: on the test frequency, even the high-end Agilent LCR meters (U1732A/U1732B) only go up to 10kHz. Is it really that important to test at 100kHz for ESR? (I've read somewhere that Peak claim 100kHz to be the industry standard). All I want to do is establish if a cap has gone bad - preferably in-circuit.

Yes, at most capacitor's datasheet now days especially for power switching, their impedance are characterized at 100 KHz. Just download few branded cap's datasheets and see for your self.

[McBryce]

Thanks - yeah, the Peak looks really good and the reviews are all favorable, except for one common remark: it needs a standing bale/kick stand!

Out of interest: on the test frequency, even the high-end Agilent LCR meters (U1732A/U1732B) only go up to 10kHz. Is it really that important to test at 100kHz for ESR? (I've read somewhere that Peak claim 100kHz to be the industry standard). All I want to do is establish if a cap has gone bad - preferably in-circuit.

--deckert

I've seen the comments about the stand, but I don't think it needs one. Possibly if I needed to test 100s of caps, but in most cases I just whip it out to test one or two caps on a suspect device and have the Peak just lying on the table beside the cap.

If you just want to know whether the cap is good or bad, then 10khz is fine, but if you want to directly compare it to the datasheet to see how far off spec it is, then you'll need 100khz because that's what most manufacturers are using.

McBryce.

[kripton2035]

the peak and iso-tech/de5000 are different instruments
the peak is a robust esr-capacitor meter that works in circuit
the others are precision lcr meters
if you intend to use it for finding bad caps in circuit, go for the peak esr70
if you want a precision lcr meter for measuring precise low resistors or capacitors (or high values) then go for the other ( de5000 is my preference)
these are really different instruments, in fact you need one of each in your lab ...

[oldway]

the peak and iso-tech/de5000 are different instruments
the peak is a robust esr-capacitor meter that works in circuit
the others are precision lcr meters
if you intend to use it for finding bad caps in circuit, go for the peak esr70
if you want a precision lcr meter for measuring precise low resistors or capacitors (or high values) then go for the other ( de5000 is my preference)
these are really different instruments, in fact you need one of each in your lab ...

ESR+ ESR70 has an abuse voltage for C>10µF of only +-50V...Would be at least +- 200V or more because you have electrolytics condensators on the main's side of SMPS with voltage up to 400V.
ESR70 is NOT a robust ESR meter at all.

[McBryce]

the peak and iso-tech/de5000 are different instruments
the peak is a robust esr-capacitor meter that works in circuit
the others are precision lcr meters
if you intend to use it for finding bad caps in circuit, go for the peak esr70
if you want a precision lcr meter for measuring precise low resistors or capacitors (or high values) then go for the other ( de5000 is my preference)
these are really different instruments, in fact you need one of each in your lab ...

ESR+ ESR70 has an abuse voltage for C>10µF of only +-50V...Would be at least +- 200V or more because you have electrolytics condensators on the main's side of SMPS with voltage up to 400V.
ESR70 is NOT a robust ESR meter at all.

Anyone who goes and measures the ESR of mains side caps in a SMPS without first discharging them manually needs their head examined!
The Peak 70 is robust, but it doesn't have idiot protection built in.

McBryce.

[Kjelt]

ESR70 is NOT a robust ESR meter at all.

There is always a limit to which a device is robust, what limit did you have in mind 50kV's ? 

[oldway]

Anyone who goes and measures the ESR of mains side caps in a SMPS without first discharging them manually needs their head examined!
The Peak 70 is robust, but it doesn't have idiot protection built in.

McBryce.

If you want to use your ESR meter for finding bad caps in circuits, it must be protected at least to the voltage you can find accidentally in the circuit your are testing.

It is not an "idiot protection"...as it is not idiot to have a multimeter protected up to 5KV when you only measure mains voltage...

SMPS with PFC has voltage up to 400V on capacitors...they can stay charged with 200V or more.

To forget to discharge a capacitor is only a mistake that can happen to everybody, no need to have "their head examined !"
That's for this that protections exists...in case of mistake or distraction.

In practice, if you have to discharge every capacitor before testing, you loose a lot of time and it is not rentable nor efficient.
For this reason, an ESR meter must be able to measure ESR on loaded capacitors and be protected at least to +- 200V.

Another important application of ESR meters is to measure the internal resistance of batteries.
For this application, it's also needed to be be protected against dc voltages, but not for such a high voltage.

[oldway]

ESR70 is NOT a robust ESR meter at all.

There is always a limit to which a device is robust, what limit did you have in mind 50kV's ? 

I wrote that it would be protected to +-200V
Why did you asked this question while I already have answered ?
50KV's.... you want to make fun of me?

[commie]

I'm in the market for an ESR meter and the ESR 70 + from Peak looks like a good buy. However, I noticed that RS Components sell the ISO-Tech LCR-1701 meter for just a little bit more:

http://za.rs-online.com/web/p/products/8007406/

Have you cross checked specs?, the Isotech is one of those LCR meters that will measure Giga Henries but when it come to measuring L below 200uH, it says sorry, no can do. So ditch the Isotech.
 

The LCR-1701 also has an ESR mode, but offers so much more functionality. It's a re-badged APPA 701 LCD meter:

http://www.amazon.com/APPA-Innovative-Meter-10KHz-Orange/dp/B00VYRIBK4

Yep, the APPA 701 looks good, it delivers 0.001 uH resolution thats very good.I realise that you are measuring ESR but my experiences tell me if it can measure L down in the sub uH range then its capacitance measurement ability will be just as good.
 

[McBryce]

Anyone who goes and measures the ESR of mains side caps in a SMPS without first discharging them manually needs their head examined!
The Peak 70 is robust, but it doesn't have idiot protection built in.

McBryce.

If you want to use your ESR meter for finding bad caps in circuits, it must be protected at least to the voltage you can find accidentally in the circuit your are testing.

It is not an "idiot protection"...as it is not idiot to have a multimeter protected up to 5KV when you only measure mains voltage...

SMPS with PFC has voltage up to 400V on capacitors...they can stay charged with 200V or more.

To forget to discharge a capacitor is only a mistake that can happen to everybody, no need to have "their head examined !"
That's for this that protections exists...in case of mistake or distraction.

In practice, if you have to discharge every capacitor before testing, you loose a lot of time and it is not rentable nor efficient.
For this reason, an ESR meter must be able to measure ESR on loaded capacitors and be protected at least to +- 200V.

Another important application of ESR meters is to measure the internal resistance of batteries.
For this application, it's also needed to be be protected against dc voltages, but not for such a high voltage.

Can you post a link to one of these robust ESR meters that doesn't cost the price of a small car? The OP is considering two €100 devices here. In that league the Peak IS robust.

McBryce.

[Deckert]

Have you cross checked specs?, the Isotech is one of those LCR meters that will measure Giga Henries but when it come to measuring L below 200uH, it says sorry, no can do. So ditch the Isotech.

....

Yep, the APPA 701 looks good, it delivers 0.001 uH resolution thats very good.I realise that you are measuring ESR but my experiences tell me if it can measure L down in the sub uH range then its capacitance measurement ability will be just as good.

You realize that the ISO-Tech LCR 1701 and the APPA 701 are exactly the same meters, right? The Iso-Tech is just a re-badged APPA.

--deckert

[oldway]

Can you post a link to one of these robust ESR meters that doesn't cost the price of a small car? The OP is considering two €100 devices here. In that league the Peak IS robust.

McBryce.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/esr-meter-adapter-design-and-construction/

[McBryce]

Can you post a link to one of these robust ESR meters that doesn't cost the price of a small car? The OP is considering two €100 devices here. In that league the Peak IS robust.

McBryce.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/esr-meter-adapter-design-and-construction/

That's a really nice project, but it's a project, not a product. It also doesn't display the capacitance, so the user has to then take a second instrument to check the capacitance.

Thanks for the link though, I might just build myself one of these

McBryce.

[oldway]

That's a really nice project, but it's a project, not a product.

Yes, it seems that some engineers are very good to deal with µcontrollers and software but not with basic electronics...
Fortunately, not all of them... Jay_Diddy_B has proved it.

Principle of descharging the capacitor as the Peak 70 do is very bad...in my opinion, it is not a clever solution, you loose a lot of time, it is not well protected (only up to +-50V) and you can't use it for measuring internal resistance of batteries.

It also doesn't display the capacitance, so the user has to then take a second instrument to check the capacitance.

That's true but, for repair job, only ESR value is mostly enough to find bad capacitors.

[McBryce]

Yes, it seems that some engineers are very good to deal with µcontrollers and software but not with basic electronics...
Fortunately, not all of them... Jay_Diddy_B has proved it.

Principle of descharging the capacitor as the Peak 70 do is very bad...in my opinion, it is not a clever solution, you loose a lot of time and it is not well protected (only up to +-50V)

I'm not a "Arduino Engineer" I studied the basics and have been putting them to use for many years. Jays design is impressive, even for those who understand the basics.

As for the Peak, I think it really depends on what your normal use will be. I rarely work on anything above 24V, so for me the Peak does everything I need.

McBryce.

[commie]

You realize that the ISO-Tech LCR 1701 and the APPA 701 are exactly the same meters, right? The Iso-Tech is just a re-badged APPA.

Oops, you are correct, my apoligies 

[Kjelt]

Yes, it seems that some engineers are very good to deal with µcontrollers and software but not with basic electronics...

And the other way around is valid as well 

[oldway]

Yes, it seems that some engineers are very good to deal with µcontrollers and software but not with basic electronics...
And the other way around is valid as well 

Yes indeed, there are even engineers who can't deal with "quote"