Author Topic: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment  (Read 8009 times)

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Offline oz2cpuTopic starter

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please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« on: March 02, 2023, 12:39:53 pm »
Headline : please don't purchase PC controlled test equipment
I mean of course ONLY controllable by pc

It is really driving me nuts, as a collector of funny old test equipment,
every time some stuff is controlled only by a pc, and a bit old,
it is impossible to get software, drivers, support
and operating systems changed 4 versions since...

this means such stuff (pc only control equipment)
come with a very short expected lifetime,
some of it is even just as expensive as real standalone equipment with remote capabilities,
this means in many years when the remote features are no more supported
you still have a working standalone unit, and not trash.

my latest equipment score is a good example :
https://youtu.be/93_Zg-mKWks

Radioamateur OZ2CPU, Senior EE at Prevas
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Offline TomKatt

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2023, 01:38:34 pm »
I wish there was a good answer to that dilemma, because it goes beyond just test equipment.  In our shop we've had to replace CNC equipment that hardware wise is still operational, but if the pc based controller fails the cost of repair is so close to an entire new machine it doesn't make sense to invest repairing it.  Recently an automated panel saw with a controller based on Microsoft's embedded "mobile" platform failed and when we located one of what appears to be the last 3 controllers left on earth the price was stupid expensive. 

I've even had to set up virtual machines trying to emulate old pc systems because the software will not run on modern 64 bit hardware.  And, as you point out, that's IF you can locate the software to begin with.

Absolutely nuts, though I have no idea what the solution is.  PC's provide flexibility and even with dedicated PLC type hardware you'll never escape the firmware / software.  The days where equipment was built with nothing but discrete hardware containing no software are gone.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2023, 01:44:21 pm by TomKatt »
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Offline xrunner

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2023, 01:54:48 pm »
Headline : please don't purchase PC controlled test equipment
I mean of course ONLY controllable by pc

It is really driving me nuts, as a collector of funny old test equipment,
every time some stuff is controlled only by a pc, and a bit old,
it is impossible to get software, drivers, support
and operating systems changed 4 versions since...

 :-//

I buy old test equipment and yea some of the software gets outdated but ... whatever you buy today will be 10 years old in ten years, 20 yrs old in 20 years, ... and so on. Who can say what system will be controlling them decades from now. I don't know what you can buy today that is future proof.
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Offline jonpaul

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2023, 01:58:09 pm »
all my HP, Keysight HPIB, GPIB work fine, for decades, using the NI interface card to PCI bus PC and USB GPIB adapters.

Program with NI la view or HP Basic.

What's your problem with instruments controllers?

j

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Offline Stray Electron

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2023, 02:02:25 pm »
  Uggg.  I don't recommend buying ANYTHING that is only controllable via a PC.  Over the last couple of decades I've already been through all sorts of printers, scanners, home automation controllers, etc that ran from a PC, only to have it become USELESS when MicroSloth came out with a different version of Windows and the drivers no longer work.

   It's bad enough when you're talking about a few hundred dollars worth of printers or scanners but many hundreds of dollars or thousands of dollars in TE? Nope it's NOT going to happen!
 

Offline TomKatt

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2023, 02:03:02 pm »
I buy old test equipment and yea some of the software gets outdated but ... whatever you buy today will be 10 years old in ten years, 20 yrs old in 20 years, ... and so on. Who can say what system will be controlling them decades from now. I don't know what you can buy today that is future proof.
Storage media formats from 20 years ago are already difficult to deal with.  Even some digital formats are problematic because of software incompatibilities.  Things will only get worse as the advance in technology rate increases...

Maybe there is some justification to not building things as well as they used to...  Considering you might not be able to operate the gear for some reason if it's still functioning.

My 1940's Waterman 'Pocket Scope" cro still works 70+ years on.  Will my Siglent SDS1104X-E still be running in 70 years?  I have a suspicion it will not  :P 
« Last Edit: March 02, 2023, 02:13:15 pm by TomKatt »
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Offline m k

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2023, 02:29:44 pm »
One answer is backup, the hardware one.

There will be time when computer part is dirt cheap.
Like a minimal PC case with necessary stuff etc.

CNC and other professional things are possibly more difficult, there can be minimal propriety parts that are not available practically ever and even that the missing part can be pretty easily substituted with something regular the process must be known.
My example here is a dongle that was actually an ISA card, possibly just some extra ROM.

Generally we are now familiar with too good hardware and what it does to manufacturers but it is changing, at least in EU, for how long I'd say that not very long, manufacturers must still live.
My prediction is that leasing will come down to hilarious levels.
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Offline coromonadalix

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2023, 05:27:39 pm »
???  why  not    loll  sound more a rant than nothing ??


With good drivers    you can even control one with an excel sheet having macros   loll

i did some basics for one of my meters  loll

I use agilent "old dmm softwares"  loll   hit a small wall with visa drivers and now  with R&S  ones works perfectly on Win11
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2023, 09:21:34 pm »
There are many examples where people changed a PC motherboard on and old scope with new different one to repair and/or upgrade... They could do that because scope was in fact a windows PC.
Picoscope supports 15-20 years old hardware with software that is still active...

You can get old PCs cheap.

I guess it is not worse but more like different approach.
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Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2023, 10:01:02 pm »
There are many examples where people changed a PC motherboard on and old scope with new different one to repair and/or upgrade... They could do that because scope was in fact a windows PC.
Picoscope supports 15-20 years old hardware with software that is still active...
Picoscope is a rare exception. And changing a motherboard in an old scope is much harder than you'd think as the OS needs to support the newer hardware as well. Lot's of older scopes run Win2k or maybe Windows XP. Windows 95/98 is not out of the question either. Try to add support for USB to such old hardware. Been there, done that a few times already.

Quote
You can get old PCs cheap.
But really old PCs (like the ones with 486 processors and ISA slots that can run Windows 3.11 / Windows 95) are getting expensive. Recently I got rid of a whole bunch of such PCs and a guy drove over 200km to pick them up.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2023, 10:03:50 pm by nctnico »
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Offline oz2cpuTopic starter

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2023, 10:33:41 pm »
thanks a lot for all the great comment about stuff that is ONLY controlled by PC...
glad to see i am not the only one with this dilemma.

the example video i posted is far from the first time i have seen this,
it was a "hate" that was build up over many years, and now i just had to let it out,
now i feel a little bit better.. need a hug, then i goto bed..
Radioamateur OZ2CPU, Senior EE at Prevas
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Offline zrq

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2023, 10:36:19 pm »
Still being proud of how I hacked HP 53305A (29 years old Win16 software)to work half-natively on my 2022 computer and modern GPIB adapters, I'd like to take the challenge of preserving headless PC controlled test equipment. This is probably another source of fun for me, especially after trash dump diving finding things like a 20 year vintage ROM programmer (-> magically found the software online, runs fine in Win2k VM with USB pass-through) or a 25 years old RS232 connected inclinometer (-> works with commands for newer models and magically found the software online later, runs natively on Win11, Windows's compatibility is amazing).

For example, if anyone have a HPAK L4411A for sale at a reasonable price, I'll be happy to get one. For me the lack of front panel is a just good space saving feature as I'm fully capable of hacking to at least get the obsolete Java virtual front panel working.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2023, 05:07:05 pm by zrq »
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2023, 11:32:44 pm »
thats like buying kits
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2023, 11:59:34 pm »
my latest equipment score is a good example :
 

Kinda on you for buying that crap in the first place.
I'll assume you got it very cheap?
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Offline luma

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2023, 03:19:55 am »
When I’m purchasing a tool, the absolute last concern on my mind is the plight of the dude who buys it off me on eBay a decade later.  You know what you’re buying, and PC control is sometimes part of the challenge in bringing old hardware back into use.  If that’s not what you want to be doing, maybe just don’t buy it?

Suggesting that nobody buys a tool they find useful so that you have an easy getting it working some years later is preposterous.
 
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Online MK14

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2023, 03:25:49 am »
Headline : please don't purchase PC controlled test equipment
I mean of course ONLY controllable by pc

So what about the Analog Discovery and Analog Discovery 2?
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2023, 07:58:53 am »
There are many examples where people changed a PC motherboard on and old scope with new different one to repair and/or upgrade... They could do that because scope was in fact a windows PC.
Picoscope supports 15-20 years old hardware with software that is still active...
Picoscope is a rare exception. And changing a motherboard in an old scope is much harder than you'd think as the OS needs to support the newer hardware as well. Lot's of older scopes run Win2k or maybe Windows XP. Windows 95/98 is not out of the question either. Try to add support for USB to such old hardware. Been there, done that a few times already.

Quote
You can get old PCs cheap.
But really old PCs (like the ones with 486 processors and ISA slots that can run Windows 3.11 / Windows 95) are getting expensive. Recently I got rid of a whole bunch of such PCs and a guy drove over 200km to pick them up.

All you said is right but you missed the point. It is easier to find a replacement PC board (or PC) than really single purpose custom PCB for a single oscilloscope product. I.E. it is easier to find a replacement PC and ALL needed software than some custom PCB and special software for an instrument.
And most of the time you don't need it to be exactly the same, but close enough...

My old Pico 212-100 needs 32 bit Windows 7 and a software that is downloadable from Picotech.
It is more than 20 years old. Still works.
That means a bit older PC but those are still around. I actually have a laptop for it that was given to me for free..

But if we ignore Picoscope, truth is that you need to dedicate a PC for your T&M equipment. I have few Picos, Digital Discovery, a SignalHound SA, few USB logic analysers.. And have one PC and touchscreen monitor at my workstation for them. Which also comes in handy to open datasheets, BOM (very nice interactive BOM in Kicad for instance). I also run automation scripts on it , in addition to a Raspbery PI (for longer running stuff)...

Like I said, PC based instruments are different, so your business continuity is different. For instance, I can easily buy another PC (or cheap PC parts), any monitor, and make an image of disk, a backup.
If an LCD on my Keysight scope dies, what are my options here?

It is simply different sets of problems and solutions.


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Offline james_s

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2023, 08:36:59 am »
I wish there was a good answer to that dilemma, because it goes beyond just test equipment.  In our shop we've had to replace CNC equipment that hardware wise is still operational, but if the pc based controller fails the cost of repair is so close to an entire new machine it doesn't make sense to invest repairing it.  Recently an automated panel saw with a controller based on Microsoft's embedded "mobile" platform failed and when we located one of what appears to be the last 3 controllers left on earth the price was stupid expensive. 

Did you take a look inside it? Earlier this week I fixed a controller for a ~$80k CNC machine. It turned out it was an industrial PC motherboard, the sort where the whole computer is on a card that plugs into a backplane, Pentium4 that runs Windows XP embedded. The machine company wanted $1k to look at it and estimated $10k-$12k to repair it. I fixed it in a day for under $50 by replacing a whole pile of bulging electrolytic capacitors on the motherboard.
 
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Offline oz2cpuTopic starter

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2023, 09:29:01 am »
>>I'll assume you got it very cheap?

sure .. i get trash for free,
no one will be silly enough to pay anything for this set..
maybe 5 $ for the case ? since they can quite easy be re used
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Offline TomKatt

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2023, 11:08:28 am »
Did you take a look inside it? Earlier this week I fixed a controller for a ~$80k CNC machine. It turned out it was an industrial PC motherboard, the sort where the whole computer is on a card that plugs into a backplane, Pentium4 that runs Windows XP embedded. The machine company wanted $1k to look at it and estimated $10k-$12k to repair it. I fixed it in a day for under $50 by replacing a whole pile of bulging electrolytic capacitors on the motherboard.
Yes, we did.  While we also have equipment using industrial pc hardware like you describe, this unit was some oddball custom 386 base pc with MS Mobile Embedded in ROM on the board.  We even sent it out to a repair shop that claimed they could repair it (they have done many other repairs for us) and they couldn't resolve it either.  I'm sure from a technical pov it wouldn't be too hard to replace it with some generic pc system as the actual IO is run by PLC's in the cabinet, but apparently the manufacturer did not have any generic software that would interface with the PLC system as that software was all in the ROM.  So their solution was $40K+ to replace everything when the saw went for around $60K on the used market.
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Offline Kleinstein

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2023, 12:04:37 pm »
It depends on the equipment. The 2 parts (DSO and AWG) from the start of the thread are testequipment with a rather short time value.  It was clear from the start that they loose much of there value over a relatively short time because better and cheaper parts come out. With such units that a evolving fast, there is not much value in a 3 year old unit - just like with PCs - there value was going down quite fast in the 1990s. So when you need to change the PC you don't loose the expensive instrument it one was, but something outdated with very limited value. A similar old stand alone DSO would also be obsolete and in many cases go to the waste - maybe a few years later, but not by much.  Having it PC controlled saves on the HW costs to start with  - so overlall not such a bad solution.

The PC control can be a problem for other, more longer lived instruments. The typical solution is to keep an old PC and maybe even an extra reseve one. I remember using an old original IBM PC-XT for such an old, but still OK scientific instrument in 2003. It just got a bit tricky to transfer and backup data. We somehow manged to move it to a newer (AFAIR 486) machine that still had an ISA bus. IFAIK it was than running some DOS 5.0 or similar.

Dedicated computers as part of instruments are often worse, as it gets even more tricky to get spares or documentation. If really needed one could still get a standard PC from the 1980s, as there were quite a lot of them around and compatibilty was reasonable. With a custom VME bus 68K system things get way more tricky.
 

Offline m k

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2023, 03:11:24 pm »
oddball custom 386 base pc with MS Mobile Embedded in ROM on the board.

Was the ROM embedded into something else?

Code emulation is the next step, for generic cases, special ones are special ones.
DOS and 16bit Windows code can be emulated today without any problems.
The generic problem is obsolete hardware that is controlled directly by the software using I/O commands.

Some motherboards without ISA slots are still ISA, there PS/2 connectors are not enough but serial and/or parallel port is pretty close.
You can also add a PCI to ISA bridge card and have your hardware supported but old software is still locked.
There you possibly have a completely supported environment but new bridge driver and running emulator may not compute.

Final answer is Linux, its DOS emulator can support those I/O commands.
There are still cli/sti style stuff but I've heard the system works.

Not so long ago I bumped into INT 34h and the likes of Turbo C, it's a DOS era x87 emulation system.
There supporting compiler generates a code that will be replaced in case of actual x87 being present, means that first round is slow but interrupt modify its presence away and then from that on the actual x87 command is executed.

Modifying I/O commands is trickier since they are native, short and not meant to be anything else, so replacement is not an option.
But nowadays exceptions are generated, there program execution is completely rerouted so problem solved.
Until it's not, that exception must be handled and that handler is not very usually working, if even implemented.
M$ case is clear, old software is not fully supported.

Are GDI printers still around?
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Offline artag

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2023, 04:30:44 pm »
Still being proud of how I hacked HP 53305A (29 years old Win16 software)to work half-natively on my 2022 computer and modern GPIB adapters, I'd like to take the challenge of preserving headless PC controlled test equipment.

That sounds useful. I've run it on an old laptop but I don't really want to preserve it for just that. I'd really rather run it in wine etc. as I don't even want to run recent windows, but I'm sure documenting what you did would be of interest and not just to mel.
 

Offline zrq

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2023, 04:47:08 pm »
Still being proud of how I hacked HP 53305A (29 years old Win16 software)to work half-natively on my 2022 computer and modern GPIB adapters, I'd like to take the challenge of preserving headless PC controlled test equipment.

That sounds useful. I've run it on an old laptop but I don't really want to preserve it for just that. I'd really rather run it in wine etc. as I don't even want to run recent windows, but I'm sure documenting what you did would be of interest and not just to mel.

I have a post for that https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/using-hp-53305a-phase-analyzer-software-on-modern-windows/msg4466365/#msg4466365 . Please use the DLL burried in the source code zip and ignore the attachment in the main post, I recall I fixed some bugs.

Wine is more complicated...You may be lucky and make another layer of shim then it works, https://stackoverflow.com/questions/39574355/is-it-possible-to-call-native-linux-api-from-a-windows-application-running-in-wi , or it's completely impossible, I haven't look deep into it so I don't know.

Wait.. didn't you already replied to that thread half year ago??  ;)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2023, 04:58:11 pm by zrq »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: please dont purchase PC controlled test equipment
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2023, 11:43:39 pm »
Yes, we did.  While we also have equipment using industrial pc hardware like you describe, this unit was some oddball custom 386 base pc with MS Mobile Embedded in ROM on the board.  We even sent it out to a repair shop that claimed they could repair it (they have done many other repairs for us) and they couldn't resolve it either.  I'm sure from a technical pov it wouldn't be too hard to replace it with some generic pc system as the actual IO is run by PLC's in the cabinet, but apparently the manufacturer did not have any generic software that would interface with the PLC system as that software was all in the ROM.  So their solution was $40K+ to replace everything when the saw went for around $60K on the used market.

Well that's annoying. It illustrates the issue with equipment that should last many decades relying on computer technology that becomes obsolete after just a few years.
 


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